Vinod,

>> I only criticized you for sympathizing with the Jehadies.

Either you are a liar or you have no brains.

Vinod,

>> The very purpose to post if there is anything adverse to the BJP and the sangha parivar.

So sensitive to criticism, but you have no hesitation in pouring out empty-headed criticism to others! Instead of seeing it as criticism of the BJP, learn to see it as a victory for the freedom of expression.

Vinod,

>> There is no reason for an ecstasy over the SC rebuke.

I posted it without comment. Is that ecstasy? You however have to comment on it with your ever present small-mindedness!

>> what do you mean I have nothing to say when I had already said what I wanted to say...

You did say what you wanted to say, which was zilch.

SC blasts Gujarat on FIR against Nandy

SC blasts Gujarat on FIR against Nandy

"Nothing in the article is objectionable," a Bench headed by Justice Altamas Kabir said, while restraining the Narender Modi Government from arresting Nandy

New Delhi: The Supreme Court today rebuked the Gujarat government for initiating criminal proceedings against political analyst Ashis Nandy for writing an article in a national daily allegedly having communal overtones.

"Nothing in the article is objectionable," a Bench headed by Justice Altamas Kabir said while restraining the Narender Modi Government from arresting Nandy.

"Concerned authorities and officials of the Gujarat Government will not take any steps to arrest Nandy in respect of the proceedings arising from the FIR registered in relation to the article," it said.

However, hours after the order was pronounced, Nandy's counsel Rakesh Khanna and Gaurang Kanth informed the bench that the scholar has been served with a summons notice by the Gujarat Police to appear before Satellite police station officials in Ahmedabad on July 8.

Taking their submission on record, the Bench cancelled the summons and said "Any further summons issued against Nandy in future relating to the case will stand quashed."

During the hearing, the Bench disapproved the prosecution of 71-year-old scholar for the article saying "there is no ground for harassing a journalist."

"Let him live in peace. You (Gujarat) are prosecuting this man for his article," the Bench said referring to the article on post-assembly election analysis.

"There are worst things happening in this country," it said expressing anguish over the state government's move to register an FIR on a private complaint.

The apex court was also critical of V K Saxena, President of the Ahmedabad-based NGO, National Council for Civil Liberties (NCCL), on whose complaint the FIR was registered under section 153A (promoting communal disharmony) and 153B (imputations, assertions prejudicial to national integration) of Indian Penal Code. "What is the grievance of the complainant. How does it (article) bother him. Is he a staunch nationalist," the Bench observed, questioning the motive behind filing the complaint.

"People coming from the land of Gandhiji have become so intolerant that they can't even tolerate an article," the Bench, also comprising Justice G S Singhvi observed.

"They look for a soft target to catch but not even a single politician or small municipal councilors are caught ...," the Bench further said refusing to consider the submission of Gujarat government counsel Hemantika Wahi that the investigation was in initial stages.

The apex court was hearing the petition filed by Nandy against the order of the Delhi High Court which had refused to provide him an interim protection against arrest.

The High Court will now hear his writ petition in which he has sought quashing of the FIR.

In the FIR, it was alleged that Nandy's article related to assembly election results disturbed communal harmony between Hindus and Muslims.

However, Nandy contended that the FIR was registered out of malafide intention. He said that the FIR was aimed at penalising and depriving him of expressing his bonafide views.

His counsel said that the state government has picked up a line from the article published in a national daily and accused him of promoting communal disharmony.

Some common-sense from the Supreme Court at least.


http://news.in.msn.com/...x?cp-documentid=1535002


SC blasts Gujarat on FIR against Nandy

"The Supreme Court today rebuked the Gujarat government for initiating criminal proceedings against political analyst Ashis Nandy .."

"What is the grievance of the complainant. How does it (article) bother him. Is he a staunch nationalist," the Bench observed..

"People coming from the land of Gandhiji have become so intolerant that they can't even tolerate an article,"

GL / GF / anwar >>"Such passages" does not mean "same passages".

And you are unable to quote either such passages or similar passages from hindu scriptures which wish ill to non hindus.

>>The words "Hindu" and "Non-hindu" were not even in use when the scriptures were written.

In other words, you accept there are no passages in Hindu scriptures, similar to ones in Koran on kaffirs.

Which is exactly what I have been trying to tell you for a long time now.

>>

http://www.foreignpolic...hp?story_id=4349&page=0



I take such polls with a grain of salt, but someone like you needs at least to be aware of it.

Every one should take it with a fistful of salt , because the same link says

" No one spread the word as effectively as the man who tops the list. In early May, the Top 100 list was mentioned on the front page of Zaman, a Turkish daily newspaper closely aligned with Islamic scholar Fethullah Gülen. Within hours, votes in his favor began to pour in. His supporters—typically educated, upwardly mobile Muslims—were eager to cast ballots not only for their champion but for other Muslims in the Top 100. Thanks to this groundswell, the top 10 public intellectuals in this year’s reader poll are all Muslim. The ideas for which they are known, particularly concerning Islam, differ significantly. It’s clear that, in this case, identity politics carried the day. "

The same ""Foreign Policy", the award-winning magazine of global politics,.." concludes this list was a cse of muslims following identity politics , to vote for a fellow muslim , than look at the merit of a person.

Satish Dhar,

>> " In a healthy polity middle classes are the most progressive segment of society, particularly during periods of transition. Apart from acting as the engines of the economy, they are the modernisers, the bridge-builders between social groups, the custodians of traditional norms, the shapers of new cultural forms, the definers of emerging civic values, and the like. Gujerat's tragedy is that, with the exception of middle class leadership in the economy, they are at best missing in action, or at worst a regressive force."

Very well put. You have made some excellent points. I appreciated your input.

NEWS FLASH: 2002
Outlook's Ashish Nandy interview on middle class responsibility for Gujerati Hindu society's downward spiral into virulent communalism took me back to an evening in 2002. In the spring of that year a disturbing news item from Ahmedabad flashed across television screens around the globe.

It pictured throngs of neatly dressed, cell-phone totting middle class men and, incredibly, women running in and out of ransacked Muslim-owned showrooms laden with looted goods which they dumped in the arms of waiting accomplices who stuffed the booty into Marutis parked nearby. The prosperous looking shoplifters semed so unnervingly methodical, so pre-prepared, so efficient that watching them in action was a chilling experience.

SUPPORT FOR VIOLENCE
This appalling scene should have made every Indian, particularly Gujeratis, cringe with shame and horror. But that was not to be. When a shocked world condemned the looting and the associated murderous attacks on minority Muslims, Gujerati Hindu communities, particularly of the NRI ilk, deluged Indian media with a defence of these brutal assaults, initially calling them justified reprisals for the alleged Muslim role in the Godhra tragedy. Then as international denunciations mounted they went further, offering, as grounds for Hindu violence, the whole history of
sins by Muslims against Hindus: their frequent invasions, their plunder cf cities, their massacres, their forced conversions, their pillage and destruction of artistic treasrues and sacred sites, and, recently, their persecution of Kashmiri Pandits, to name but a few. Finally, they declared that Hindu rampages were necessary pre-emptive actions taken to prevent Muslims -- followers of an irredeemably violent religion -- from ever again subjugating and exploiting peace-loving Hindus.

PARALLELS WITH JEHADI BLOODSHED
This rationale for defending the mass murder of Muslims reeks of the logic used by radical Islamic clerics to justify their moral and financial support of terrorism. Like supporters of Hindu violence in Gujerat and elsewhere, they too claim thay are driven by a hunger to revenge past wrongs, in their case by the West on the Islamic world. That middle class Hindus who champion the cause of anti-Muslim violence do not see parallels between their ideology and that of Muslim zealots they despise attests to their state of denial and wilful self-deception.

When the U.S. government refused Chief Minister Narendra Mody, the notorious author of bloody anti-Muslim pogroms and hero of many Gujerati and middle class nationalists, they went ballistic attributing this decision to Muslim lobbying, to propoganda by U.S. Indian unpatriotic lef-wingers, to U.S. ignorance of Muslim treachery, in fact to anything but the Gujerat government's odious ideology, an ideology they whole-heartedly applaud. That the U.S. government could not be seen boosting the reputation of a populist leader whose rhetoric and actions closely resemble those of Jihadi sympathisers never crossed their minds. That is the extent of their self-delusion.

REACTION TO ASHIS NANDY'S INTERVIEW
The hysterical reaction of many Hindus, in India and abroad, to Ashis Nandy's criticism of Gujerati middle classes, as evidenced by the many responses in Outlook on-line and other media, is a symptom of the same malaise. In a healthy polity middle classes are the most progressive segment of society, particularly during periods of transition. Apart from acting as the engines of the economy, they are the modernisers, the bridge-builders between social groups, the custodians of traditional norms, the shapers of new cultural forms, the definers of emerging civic values, and the like. Gujerat's tragedy is that, with the exception of middle class leadership in the economy, they are at best missing in action, or at worst a regressive force.

Kumar,

>> There are a few distinct issues.

I am aware of those issues, and they are best dealt with in scholarly treatises. The posters that I have been responding to are not interested in those kinds of explanations.

Bagai,

>> what is news from pakistan, afghanistan, iran and saudi arabia. is it about great discoveries in science and medicine. reviews of writers, theatre or ballet.

Posing such loaded question is revelatory only of your hate agenda. It is true that the Muslim world is in a flux. It is also true that it has a lot of catching up to do. But you habitually compare the worst from the Muslim world with the best in the non-Muslim world! As a hate propagandist it is your duty to do so, but there are a lot of good things happening among Muslims too. In movies for example, since Satyajit Ray we have not made much of an impression in international film festivals, whereas Iranian and Turkish movies have been winning high praise for the past five years. Last night I saw an excellent Egyptian movie called "The Yacoubian Building". It is available on DVD, so try it out.

"Foreign Policy", the award-winning magazine of global politics, and Britain's Prospect magazine have conducted a global public poll to pick the world's top intellectuals and thinkers who are shaping the tenor of our time with their ideas. Here are the results :


http://www.foreignpolic...hp?story_id=4349&page=0


I take such polls with a grain of salt, but someone like you needs at least to be aware of it. By the way, in movies, I must admit I am very impressed by the Malayalam movies of Adoor Gopalakrishnan.

Anwar Patel,

>> I hate to post any material disparaging any religion .. I post the following as one example of innumerable such articles on the internet ... My basic point remains that throwing mud at each other's religions is a very unbecoming activity

We need to understand that it is not just an academic/theoretical debate and as I said earlier, it is an over-simplification and sometimes a category mistake to simply shrug off saying “well, all scriptures have some problematic texts”. There are a few distinct issues like: 1) The nature of the offensiveness and extent/degree of the danger/offence 2) How the scholars/clergy interpret them and which interpretation seems strong and is winning or likely to win the scholarly debate 3) How many people want to strictly adhere to that interpretation and want to literally live it out on the basis of religious sanction and unwilling to apply common-sense/reason.

In the example you gave about the text on female child, I do not know how scholars/priests interpret it, (and I do not know how well it is translated also) but surely no one does female infanticide on the basis of a religious text. And there is a wide spread recognition that female infanticide is wrong (even those who do it know that it is wrong).

Vinod,

>> I can also provide a hundred and one web links to many of the abusive blogs and irresponsible sites which will be unpleasant...

That is exactly my point! Don't you understand anything?

LBMN,

>> It was you who mentioned that such passages exist in hindu scriptures.

"Such passages" does not mean "same passages".

>> whether Hindus and their books prescribe death and punishment to Non Hindus, Like the Koran does to infidels and kaffirs.

Shylock's pound of flesh! The words "Hindu" and "Non-hindu" were not even in use when the scriptures were written. You are talking past the main point, which is that passages occur in scriptures of many religions that may now be found to be objectionable, and throwing them in each others' faces serves no purpose.

Vinod,

>> talk of which bigot will be the first to lie about your motives.

I had a strong suspicion that you were going to be Bigot No: 2!

vinod

i read the international press and so do the others in this forum

what is news from pakistan, afghanistan, iran and saudi arabia.

is it about great discoveries in science and medicine. reviews of writers, theatre or ballet.

is it about ngo,s working for human rights, environment or children.

i will ask the forum for their opinion.

or is it about beitullah messud, a new islamic ikon in pakistan , ahmenijad from iran, a harassed karzai from kabul. the news is dismal.
i will not mention sudan, somalia, libya, hezbollah and hamas.

and imagine if this is not enough, we have the
mullahs in green park mosque, birminghmam calling for the killings of their british hosts.

allah be praised.
and mohammet-pbuh.

vinod

though i am an agnostic- neither believe or disbelieve in god- i know that the stories from
the ramayana and the mahabharata have strongly influenced my thinking.

the example of ram, sita, laxman and bharat are
imprinted in the minds and souls of most hindus.

all the characters of this old age story inspire us to do what is right and not do wrong irrespective of circumstance.

i find few paralells of this in other religions.

indeed i think if i changed my life then it would be to settle down near rishi kesh and
spend my last years there.

any one who wants to join will be most welcome.

breakfast will be eggs and bacon, with tea and toast.

dinner will be served by a faithful batman-
formal dress for men and ladies.

white wine with the oysters and red wine with meat.

cognac and cigars with cheese and coffee.

jai bharat mata.

new york times has publshed a report of what is happening in peshawer.

muslims and seculars should read this.as should all others.

joseph be grateful that you have family in usa.

residents from peshawer-are selling out- and moveing else where. some to dubai.

can we learn anything from pakistan.

some of us can, but the diehard seculars will not.

ashish nandy would soil his pants if he was there.

GL / GF / Anwar >>You'll have to find sanskrit equivalents of those words, then look them up in your scriptures.

It was you who mentioned that such passages exist in hindu scriptures. So you must be knowing the sanskrit equivalents and the specific verses in scriptures. Please quote them.

Looks like you conveiently forgot the subject under discussion, once again.

The original subject under discussion was whether Hindus and their books prescribe death and punishment to Non Hindus, Like the Koran does to infidels and kaffirs. You said earlier it does. Please quote those verses.

Your links are NOT about that subject. It is talking about some social evils in hinduism.

We will talk about social evils under Islam and hinduism in a different thread . Now please stick to the point raised by you.

KhushiRam/Minu,

>> Reading a few lines of your link reveal your true nature.

I was just waiting to see which bigot will be the first one to lie about my motives in spite of the clear preface that I had posted.

" I abhor the article that I am posting, but you have left me with no choice."

Gulam baba

Please don't try to hide your true colours. Reading a few lines of your link reveal your true nature and animus towards Hindiism. A genuine Psecu would not retort this way .

But why I am writing this ?

LBMN,

If the link does not work, and since I do not want to paste such an article in the forum, you may want to paste that URL in your address box.

Maybe this time it will work!


http://www.topix.com/fo...istan/TAARVMBPV3BUV5O97

LBMN,

Sorry, I think this is the correct link.


http://www.topix.com/fo...istan/TAARVMBPV3BUV5O97

LBMN,

>> typical CAIR jihadi tactics.

That is sheer stupidity.

>> it is your responsibility to quote them ?

I don't have any responsibility to quote anything that is general knowledge.

>> which wish death and destruction to kaffirs and infidels.

You'll have to find sanskrit equivalents of those words, then look them up in your scriptures. I hate to post any material disparaging any religion, but since you insist so vehemently, I post the following as one example of innumerable such articles on the internet, with apologies to my Hindu friends. My basic point remains that throwing mud at each other's religions is a very unbecoming activity, and we should not indulge in it. I might add that I abhor the article that I am posting, but you have left me with no choice.


http://www.topix.com/fo...istan/TKFRR40MEN56LCMN2


We should close this discussion if it is okay with you.

GL / GF / anwar >>Your paranoid illness as well as your poor genes ...

LOL. Mian , Your typical CAIR jihadi tactics of abusing other posters , when cornered on facts does not work. You are a carricature , who is reduced to even cut & paste my earlier posts addressed to you.

>>such passages have in fact been posted by others several times.

You made the statement that such pasaages exist in Hindu scriptures. So it is your responsibility to quote them ? can you ?

>>There are passages in scriptures of all religions that one wishes weren't there,..

Mian, we are not referring in general to "passages that one wishes were not there" but specifically to passages in Koran which wish death and destruction to kaffirs and infidels.

Can you post such or smilar passages from hindu scriptures ?

The very fact that you had to resort to personal abuse, without answering the question , shows you lost the argument. pity you. keep posting your hate messages.

Vinod,

>> need not take pains to list everything here .... wastes valuable forum space.

It was a link. Took just one line. You are taking up too much space with your empty-headed posts.

The problem is that people like you google for R. S. S., Sangh Parivar, Bajapa......

Exactly. We are talking about gender bias among 1,345,678,910 Muslims, Mr. Vinod.

Then India is cow manure rich, Mr. Vinod.

Vinod,

>> if he keeps asking the same then he might have not either understood.

While he happens to be as dense as you are, a list of names of Muslims of distinction is not something that is hard to understand. Getting through to him is as hard as getting through to you. The two of you fill up this space with absolute drivel.

The GDP of the Islamic Countries taken together is greater, proportionately, than the Hindu Countries, Mr. Vinod. Their total trade is similarly greater. If the Hindus are , at all, it is in "selective education" because of a certain gender bias.If Mr. Bagai is interested in a point by point comparison, I am willing, given time, to provide it.

Vinod,

>> Mr.Bagai had only asked you why Muslims the world over have a few achievements.

He has been asking that question for years. I and others have answered by providing him with reams and reams of information, but he again comes back with the same question as if it were the first time he was asking it. Hence the answer I gave him was quite appropriate. It is nice of you to speak up on behalf of all the bigots in the forum. Keep it up!

Ganesan,

>> I forget things with no reason at all.

I can help you fill in some of your memory gaps. Let me remind you, for example, that you are a long-standing admirer of Sonia and MMS, and that you lose no opportunity to shower praise on them. I hope that was helful.

""Your paranoid illness as well as your poor genes and defective upbringing must have prevented you form remembering that such passages have in fact been posted by others several "

WHat a lengthy explanation for not remembering something. That is Freud 2.0. I forget things with no reason at all. Just yesterday I wanted to post something but wait........what happened? What am I talking about?

i don't for a minute wish to defend or plead for those who write nonsense, filth and garbage but will the Outlook moderators please note this from its resident pest:

"Your paranoid illness as well as your poor genes and defective upbringing must have prevented you form remembering that such passages have in fact been posted by others several "

If this is not ad hominem that you warn against at the bottom of this page, then what is? What is your excuse this time for not banning this "Anwar Patel"?

I expect to see action and am putting this in the open domain unlike other whiners who complain and moan on a daily basis.

LBMN,

>> stop playing holier than though. You cant post such passages, as there are no such passages in Hindu scriptures.

Your paranoid illness as well as your poor genes and defective upbringing must have prevented you form remembering that such passages have in fact been posted by others several times. There are passages in scriptures of all religions that one wishes weren't there, but no one makes or needs to make a big issue out of it. If you are one of the "My religion is better than you religion" crowd, that again may be a symptom of your mental illness, and should be expected to improve once you get proper treatment.

Bagai,

>> muslims all over the world seem to have few achievments to their credit.

You have been making this stupid statement for years in spite of innumerable refutations. Your skull may be too thick for any new material to seep in. By the way Hitler said exactly the same thing about the Jews in Mein Kampf! But I shall say this in your favor. You are more idiotic than Hitlerian.

faruki

the company of rheindeers in the north pole would
be preferable to muslims of your kind.

GL / GF / Anwar >>I have said umpteen times that if I post offensive passages from the scriptures of other religions, I would sink to the level of the bigots...

LOL. Mullah , stop playing holier than though. You cant post such passages, as there are no such passages in Hindu scriptures, which wish destruction and death to non hindus.

If you do not want to quote, atleast tell us the book, chapter and verse and source of hindu scriptures, which you think are equally offensive.
As per your jihadi logic, any question for which you do not have an answer becones a silly question . Is it ? how convenient?

>>If you had started your treatment when I first asked you to do so, ..

As I have told you many times before , restrict your posts to subject under discussion. Otherwies eyou will be forced to change your broweser once again.

Wafa Sultan, who is a psychiatrist has already analysed you and your religion. Read her up before you spew venom here once again & save your free medical advise to fellow inmates in padded cells of gitmo.

This is secularism (Indian style)


http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jun/27guest2.htm

tendulkar

one way of ignoreing people you dislike is not to read them. i ignore a lot of mails.

you could do the same. its quite easy.

i do not know your views at all. you come up with
a cryptic remark about once in 6 months, as if
it was message of wisdom from the greek gods.

anyway i do agree that my comments on islam, muslims are repeated more often then they should.

i will withdraw from this pointless debate with faruki, and leave it to others.

however my point remains- i agree with say dr sultan and friends.

the clash of the west,nonmuslims with muslims will continue.

the debate wrt islam is kept going by Faruki.'
It would dimish by 70 percent if he was not there.

However it seems islam is the most important topic. the next is reservation- and the other
problems, environment, water, energy, education
are seldom debated.

But any way I will end my spat with Faruki.

Allah be praised.

faruki

i have just got a take on you.

all your anger-most of the time, you are abuseing,insulting us- are due to your complete failure as a muslim activist.

islam is abused ,dispised and hated by the worlds most liberal thinkers, and you have no
answers.

muslims all over the world seem to have few achievments to their credit. the most noticeable
muslims are not artists, writers, thinkers,
business people, makers of films or even sportsmen, but fanatic and dogmatic monsters.

you do not have the courage even to look at the evil monsters who dominate the muslim stage,
but keep on pointing to some insignificant act
from the opposite side.

i know that you will keep on with your daily dirge for the purpose of protecting islam, the
koran and mohammet from criticism. however it
pleases me immensely that people like dr sultan can now speak openly on tv, and leave people like you to fumble about in impotent rage.she indeed is a luminous star, but unappreciated
by the muslim audience.

islam has now been revealed for what it stands in the open forum of world opinion. and your
fellow muslims in most muslim countries have shown how islam works in pracrice.

people like you can not accept the complete failure of your faith.

but as i have said, no body would bother about islam or muslims if these were confined to your
own countries , and we nonmuslims were untouched by it.

we will then just look at the bizarre happenings in pakistan, afganistan and else where, with wonder and incomprehension.

the nonmuslim world needs to accept the fact that islam and muslims require a century or more
to adapt to the modern world. let them do it on their own, without inflicting us with their problems.

the west has tried to understand muslims, and tried very hard. it has failed and now sane people are willing to accept that all efforts have resulted in failure.

it is what he wrote
"“There is huge support for Modi among First World Gujaratis and that support also often translates into money for Hindu nationalist causes. It is guilt money. The more they and their kids make a beeline for McDonald’s and KFC (Kentucky Fried Chicken), the more they feel that they have to donate for “Hindu” causes.

“Moreover, NRIs are defensive about the status of India in the outside world because that status impinges directly on their self-respect in their adopted country. Indians and the Hindus back in India always seem to embarrass them. They are ever ready to fight to the last Indian in India for the glory of India outside India.”
"

I think Mr Nandi should first live in Europe and USA then jump on such conclusion about NRIs.

With NRIs "Chalta Hai" approach does not work. India intellectuals thrive on "Chalta Hai" approach and earn accolade's.

I am non-gujrati but I find Mr Nandi totally out of tune in commenting and insulting to Gujrati´s.

I would publically SLAP such a great......"GADHA"

This article is a perfect example that fits the idiom "POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK."

LBMN,

>> Can you post similar quotes from Hindu scriptures.

Perhaps your psychotic illness has affected your memory, or your character pathology induces you to pretend ignorance, but I have said umpteen times that if I post offensive passages from the scriptures of other religions, I would sink to the level of the bigots. If you had started your treatment when I first asked you to do so, you would not be asking such silly questions now.

GL/ GF / anwar >>Such selected quotes can be posted from the scriptures of other religions too,

Can you post similar quotes from Hindu scriptures, which call for death & violence to non hindus ?

Vinod,

Your posts continue to be as empty-headed as ever, and you continue to be a bore. Keep up the good work!

Namaste/Bodepudi

Wafa has described the language of Islam correctly.

Worship her as your goddess. Maybe she will help you get rid of your hatefulness and violent tendencies.


>>

Outlook, please do us all a favour and remove this humbug faruki and his symbiotically related pal bagai. bodepudi of course should be treated with love and affection. he might otherwise hurt himself. faruki of course is not capable enough to do that.

Namaste/Bodepudi,

>> Your mission is to support the spread of Islam, by what ever means necesary.

None of my posts do that. All I do is to fight the despicable base hate propaganda that goons like you try to spread using this forum which you have tried to hijack for your nefarious purposes.

Kumar,

The answers that I just gave apply also to the questions in your latest post.

Bagai,

Stop making an ass of yourself. Stop drinking and go to bed.

A New York Times Article:

http://www.nytimes.com/...f8e8c2a8c02a64f&ei=5070


"The call to jihad is rising in the streets of Europe..say they would like to see Prime Minister Tony Blair dead or deposed and an Islamic flag hanging outside No. 10 Downing Street .. swear allegiance to Osama bin Laden and his goal of toppling Western democracies to establish an Islamic superstate under Shariah law, like Afghanistan under the Taliban. They call the Sept. 11 hijackers the "Magnificent 19" and regard the Madrid train bombings as a clever way to drive a wedge into Europe..Sheik Omar Bakri Mohammad, spoke of his adherence to Osama bin Laden. If Europe fails to heed Mr. bin Laden's offer of a truce — provided that all foreign troops are withdrawn from Iraq in three months — Muslims will no longer be restrained from attacking the Western countries that play host to them, the sheik said. "All Muslims of the West will be obliged," he said, to "become his sword" in a new battle. Europeans take heed, he added, saying, "It is foolish to fight people who want death — that is what they are looking for”… And he warned Western leaders, "You may kill bin Laden, but the phenomenon, you cannot kill it — you cannot destroy it. Our Muslim brothers from abroad will come one day and conquer here and then we will live under Islam in dignity," he said.

Anwar Patel,

>> 'use of arms to impose islamic rule on nations' .. Have you met anyone advocating that? I haven't.

Here is an example from Mawlana Sayid Abul Ala Mawdudi, the founder of Jamaat-e-Islami says: "Islam is not a normal religion like the other religions in the world, and Muslim nations are not like normal nations. Muslim nations are very special because they have a command from Allah to rule the entire world and to be over every nation in the world" "The goal of Islam is to rule the entire world and submit all of mankind to the faith of Islam. Any nation or power that gets in the way of that goal, Islam will fight and destroy. In order to fulfill that goal, Islam can use every power available every way it can be used to bring worldwide revolution. This is Jihad"

>> There will always be some ultra-radicals in all communities.

We are talking about a a whole range of issues which has significant support among scholars/clergy who say that the radical interpretation of the "problematic texts" as the right interpretation without any ambiguity (killings for criticism, women issues, universal human rights, warfare for establishing islamic rule etc). Such support is not common "in all communities". Simply brushing aside by saying "well, there will be some in all communities" is like someone committing a murder and saying "well, everyone does some mistakes!" (I mean, over-simplification and trivializing the seriousness).

>> The virulent pronouncements of wahabi extremists and talibans are bad, but receive unduly large, almost exclusive, general attention

May be the attention is deserved due to its seriousness?

faruki

i think that many of the mosques should be closed. they preach bogotry and are anti indian.

same goes for madrassahs.

the maulvis should be rehabilitated in other
professions. there is a big demand for cooks makeing mughlai food, and other niche jobs.

i think thats what kamal attaturk did in turkey.
i remember the turkish ambassador telling me about this.

muslims in india should rid themselves of their medieval taboos, especially those effecting women.

they should get good well paying jobs in industry, commerce, and meet nonmuslim men,
to broaden their outlook.

muslims need to make a break from the past-learn from wafa.

faruki

the winner of the booker prize Mckewan has supported another english writer martin amis in
his attack on islam. i presume you will find something wrong with them too. also with salman rushdie, naipaul, robert spencer, harris.

stick to your islamic centre.

i have not seen such a serious attack by the pope on hindus or jews. plain faruki lies.

you are liveing in a make belief world.

faruki

i am most welcome in denmark. have friends in top circles.

its guys like you who are unwelcome. speaking
his mind about dogmatic muslims, the pm said.
if you dont like our values you are free to move.

this happened after the fuss about the famous cartoons.all danes support the cartoonists.

Kumar,

>> Going by the growing number of terrorist groups and their gaining support, the % you gave is too optimistic.

Less than 1% is still too much for a 1.3 billion strong community. Knowing my community in my hometown in India, I would say the number would be 0%.

>> use of arms to impose islamic rule on nations.

Have you met anyone advocating that? I haven't. I told you last year of a radical Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood member saying that nobody believes in such a proposition.

>> their actions is just a re-starting of the work left by Muhammad and initial Caliphs.

There will always be some ultra-radicals in all communities. Muslims do need to progress in fields of tolerance, respect for the religions of others, women's rights etc. The virulent pronouncements of wahabi extremists and talibans are bad, but receive unduly large, almost exclusive, general attention.

Namaste/Bodepudi,

>> Where did we preach violence?

Are you going to lie to us again? You advocated murder of imams, razing of mosques and once even supported genocide. You will never be able to live that down.

>> He is succeeding in the sense he is stealing our time and effort AWAY from forming the anti-fascist UF.

Muting the hate messages of shameless bigots like you is a very worthwhile activity.

From an article in the Pioneer


http://www.dailypioneer...ry5%2Etxt&counter_img=5


Excerpts from the article

While the pre-fab shelters for Hindu pilgrims have suddenly become controversial, with the PDP and the All-Party Hurriyat Conference asking that they be removed, in 2005 they were offered to and immediately accepted for use by Muslim victims of the earthquake. Indeed, the then Chief Minister, Mufti Mohammed Sayeed, saw no problem with using the shelters.

"Nobody protested when forest land was given away to the Indian Railways to lay down tracks, to private telecom companies to erect towers or to the Jammu and Kashmir Power Corporation," said the official, adding "there seems to be religious prejudice at work here, nothing else."

In 2004, the Mata Vaishno Devi University in Jammu was set up using funds collected from pilgrims. The Vaishno Devi Trust had to buy land at commercial rates, spending Rs 13 crore. In response - "and in a sense of competition" - the Baba Ghulam Shah Badshah University was set up in Rajouri by the state Wakf Council. It was given forest land free of cost by the Mufti Government.

The shelters for Amarnath yatra pilgrims have been compared, by Hurriyat leaders, to Israel settling Jews in Palestinian territory.

Wonder if Nandy will have the guts to call the Kashmiri Muslims as terrorists and communal, the way he calls out the Gujarati middle class?

Anwar Patel,

>> So do over 99% of Muslims

Going by the growing number of terrorist groups and their gaining support, the % you gave is too optimistic. In any case, I am pointing out the fact that a significant number of scholars/clergy hold the view of radical interpretation is pretty relevant and needs to pursued today to be true to islam.
(use of arms to impose islamic rule on nations, killing for religious criticism etc)

>> They may use these slogans, but the causes that propel their movements are largely geo-political

It is possible that these radical agendas may have been re-triggered or re-kindled due to some geo-political issues. But as I said before in some posts, the argument of the radicals that their actions is just a re-starting of the work left by Muhammad and initial Caliphs (who knew Muhammad and his teachings intimately and they acted in a way the radicals want to act) seems pretty strong - from a historical/theological perspective. May be there is theological refutation to this hard-line argument in the books that you recommended earlier, but I haven’t got them yet.

sriram

bengali leftists are even more obnoxious then the mosquitoes in calcutta,

this fellow nandi is just one of a numerous tribe. let him look at his own miserable state.

he is one of many who has a career based on speaking up for the islamic cause.

Kumar,

>> passages in their scriptures may have applied in a specific context at that time.

So do over 99% of Muslims.

>> the seriousness of a section of people (not insignificat in number) believing in things like global armed jihad for islamic rule etc.

They may use these slogans, but the causes that propel their movements are largely geo-political.

faruki

do you police all blogs, letters to the editor
in all nonmuslim countries.

good heavens.

Vinod,

>> slander against every poster who disagrees with him that he lost his previous ID 'Ghulam Faruki'.

You are such a perverse liar! The editors, if they read your posts, must laugh at your stupidity. They know whether I was banned or not.

faruki

what would you say to wafa, regarding her attacks on mohammet, for being a violent and hateful man. what do you say when she says muslims can not reason, and are abusive and rude
in their speech.what about her comments on mohammet about his numerous wives, and sex with a nine year child. could you approve of this today from a holy man.in denmark he would be jailed.

all the ideas we have are from people like wafa, and her arguments appear eminently reasonable and truthful.

your comments are abusive and that is because you
have no reasoneable arguments.

you are makeing a fool of yourself, and just confirming what wafa says about muslims.

instead of bugging us in this forum, have a dialogue with wafa. she knows arabic and has read
the koran in the original language. besides this she is a doctor, and this qualifies her more then some dogmatic semiliterate maulvi in understanding the koran.

Bagai,

>> i believe that we would be better of without people like you in our society.

You would be better off living on the North Pole in the company of the reindeers!

Bagai,

>> you are a liveing proof that muslims and nonmuslims are poles apart in their thinking.

I am poles apart from the sanghis and the racists, but not form the liberal secular crowd. The fact that you keep quoting right wing neanderthals like Berlusconi and Pia Kjærsgaard, and a Pope who has offended Jews, Hindus and Muslims alike shows that you and European liberals are poles apart.

faruki

we have all seen dr sultan condemning islam and mohammet on tv. she is well educated, and her
arguments are faultless.

i hope that the american people are able to see and hear her views. it would be useful if muslims
of your kind could oppose her in reasoned debates, excludeing threats and abuse.

i am pretty confident that dr sultan will win
hands down.

with your mindset it appears pure opportunism that you live in the usa. and it is worth noteing that you have chosen a secular and not
a muslim blog.

in a way you have judged both muslim countries
and your own people as being unsatisfactory.
it makes sense.

by the way if you can not refute wafa, then dont bother to interact with us. we have similar views to hers.

Anwar Patel,

>> Such selected quotes can be posted from the scriptures of other religions too

But there might be some reason why the scholars amd laymen of of other religions unanimously agree/believe that war/harsh passages in their scriptures may have applied in a specific context at that time, but not now (may be by looking at the overall message/thrust/teachings of the religion)?

It is more serious than simply saying that all scriptures have problems etc. I am not sure if you are realizing the seriousness of a section of people (not insignificat in number) believing in things like global armed jihad for islamic rule etc.

Bagai,

>> dr sultan is adressing herself solely to muslims.

Does she approve of the hate, apartheidism and small-mindedness of bigots like you?

J,

>> JAI SHREE RAM,
JAI BHARAT MATA KI,
VANDE MATARAM.

I have no problems with your slogans. In fact I wish you would spend your time and effort in extolling Hinduism rather than in spreading hate.

J (to Raj),

>> You are in living in total denial, if you think that Islam and terrorism are not inter-related.

You have been thoroughly brainwashed by the shakhas! You are as ill-informed about Islam as Osama bin Laden! You are beyond hope.

namaste

dr sultan is a person with superb logic.

i am willing to support her financially from my
hedge fund.

how can one do it.

J,

>> These virulent hate messages are direct quotes...

But the selection of the quotes was done by you, and they were posted with the evil purpose of defaming and maligning. Such selected quotes can be posted from the scriptures of other religions too, but I hope people do not make a habit of it. Also the sanghis and zionists seem never to post any of the innumerable positive affirmations from the Quran!

>> avoided answering the question whether you agree with Wafa on what she has to say.

Do you agree with what Periyar or Ilaiah had to say about Hinduism, or what Karunanidhi had to say about Ram? I said several times that I agree with Wafa's rage at the hatred and vilolence of the jihadis, but I also said that she is not a scholar in Islam.

>> Otherwise you would have beheaded Kafirs like us!

Is the risk of being beheaded the only reason that our wise elders refrained from insulting each others' religions? Should we all use the anonymity of the internet to behave like you do, tearing each others' cherished traditions apart?

Vinod,

>> what is the basis for you to call me having narrow mindedness since I am not fanatic.

The basis is your posts which seem to have the simple-minded purpose of heckling me without making much sense, and your allying yourself closely with the most narrow-minded fanatics in this forum.

Is the middle class more culpable than Modi in drawing the battleline between Hindus and Muslims in Gujarat?

Classic "plurium interrogationum". You can give a "yes" or "no" for an answer, but either way you imply that there is a battle line drawn between Hindus and Muslims and that Modi had a part to play in drawing the line.

And the dude's answers to the questions are shockingly irrelevant to the questions posed. None of his arguments follow from the premise. That Modi was refused a US visa is a fact, but one wonders how this led this moron to the conclusion that Modi felt that he had to refurbish image after that. Same with the McDonald's and KFC line. Fire, brimstone and crap. Even if these arguments were not fallacious, how the heck do these answer the question "Is this assault on freedom of expression in Gujarat recent?"? Ignoratio elenchi. Such a sorry ass with flowery prose is celebrated as an intellectual. If you are blaming a sizable community, you better have your arguments foolproof. Else people will always be reminded of frigging sour grapes.

Boy!! One of these days I am going to pull an Alan Sokal act on Outlook.

faruki

as a hindu bigot or a neoconservative i believe that we would be better of without people like you in our society.

we do not want people who explode in rage at percieved insults to their religion. we dont want people who dress, live and think in quite
a different way from us. and thats why i dont want people like you around. thats the right of of free people.the right of choice.a society with faruki,s or without them.

since you are a devout believer you should be
able to live in muslim societies, where you will
not hear or read anything which hurts you.

most hindus are thankful that a large number of muslims are now out of india, in pakistan and bangladesh. look at the mess they have made of their countries.

i think that you are aware of the violence,
hate and intolerance which pervades muslim socities. that is why you live in usa, and that is why you interact with us in this forum.

your refusal to live in say pakistan, or even to exchange views with fellow muslims is recoganition, that islam and many muslims are bad news.

we do not find anything worthwhile in your religion or amongst you. we watch what is happening in muslim countries, and wonder how
low people can sink.it is barbarism not seen
since the stone ages.

people like you should be ashamed of your religion and your community.

faruki

you are a liveing proof that muslims and nonmuslims are poles apart in their thinking,
and never the ends shall meet.in your mindset you are no different from the taliban.

i know that i have a very westernised mind, and i am in synch with most europeans that i come across.

europeans have a very strong bias against muslims, much more so then most indian hindus.

berlussconi- islam is a backward religion

the pope- what has mohammet brought but violence
and evil

pia kærsegaard head of the danish peoples party

there is no clash between civilisations. there is a clash between civilisation and barbarism

naipuals views along with dozens of antiislam wester thinkers would fill pages.

exmuslims like dr sultan, hirsi ali are honoured in the west. muslim idealogues are despised and disliked. dozens of muslim clerics are being deported from britain, harsh laws are being passed mainly against them

however you live in a make belief world, but i sincerely hope that reality will catch up with you.

you do not deserve to live in the usa. but thats typical. many dogmatic muslims choose the freedom of liberal societies, but remain true to their dogmatic faith.

no good will come from our interacting with you.

besides being evil you are also a buffoon, and wafa has described you well. beyond reason, and
common sense.sheep and goats can think more clearly then you.

faruki

you can not refute the verses quoted directly from the koran.

you are unable to refute violent and evil acts done by your profit.

what kind of human being are you. a bigot, a fanatic, incapable of independent moral judgement.a zombie sold to islam.

you are a disgrace. usa should deport you to a muslim country of your choice.

faruki

we can ask wafa if her remarks are also adressed to christians, jews and hindus.

dorje you can ask her by mail.

faruki. what would americans think after listening to a debate between dr sultan and mohammet. would mohammet be praised and given the key to new york. or would it be given to
dr sultan.

ayan hirsi ali was invited by the Danish prime minister to Denmark, and given the freedom prize of his party. She has been on Danish TV.

Tasleema Nasreen was given a standing ovation by 1500 people dureing an international conference.

The Dalai Lama is an honoured guest in Denmark.

India gets a great coverage in the ´media, as a
nonmuslim secular country. Pakistan and most
muslim countries have a dreadful reputation.
What are your plans. Send of some angry mails to the members of the Danish parliament.

Most members of the Danish parliament have supported the cartoonists and critics of Islam.

You are liveing in a make belief world. However
knowing you, I believe you will remain a dogmatic muslim to the end of your days.

Now eat your halwa, and dont drop it on your beard.
An extra Mecca Cola today- Its friday

faruki

dont kid yourself

dr sultan is adressing herself solely to muslims.
she has not criticised christians, hindus, or jews.

in fact she has spoken well of jews, western civilisation. she has said that she first experienced freedom when she arrived in usa,after
leaveing syria.

your strategy of defending islam is to claim
all other religions have evil and violent scriptures. i challenge you to produce evil passages from hindu, budhist or christian holy books.

your saying that dr sultan,s message is not specifically critical of islam and mohammet is quite simply a lie. you are adept at it, but then lies and denials do not work in the long run.

finally muslims like you can terrorise people through street violence and killings. does not
work in the internet.

if you are sincere then put on your black turban, grab a knife and join the true believers
where you can find them. i really hope you do.Join Jehad and travel.

Next stop Gitmo.

To Lalit Bagai and everyone,

JAI SHREE RAM,
JAI BHARAT MATA KI,
VANDE MATARAM.

I hope "seculars" suffering from incurable 'arundhatinitus' don't get dysentery after seeing these slogans.

I think the media is responsible for this psephocracy. When a political party wins the media somehow finds all the merits in that party and if the same party loses the media finds all the faults. Winning and losing the elections are just as meaningless as share market and boxoffice.

j

bangalore

you have spoken for all of us.

i remember in the times of the soviet union,
the communists also did their best to keep hidden
the existence of slave labour camps, assasinations of opponents of stalin,
and also tried to discredit the democratic capitalist countries.

it did not work despite an army of foul mouthed
farukis, who did their best to hide the enormous crimes comitted in russia under stalin. truth will out.

the rise of the bjp represents the breaking away from the lies, frauds comitted on the indian
nation by communists, congress and casteist parties. the people voteing for bjp are not fanatics, baying for the blood of muslims, christians or communists. they want to elect a nationalist party, who are not ashamed of saying india first. hindu ethos,and the concept of dharma will ensure justice for all, and appeasement of none.

jai sita ram

Vinny the Poo>> what is the basis for you to call me having narrow mindedness since I am not fanatic to be narrow minded.I have not even said something about any religion either. why you should then call me as narrow minded when I am only targeting the jehadies for thier misdeeds and thier crime against humanity...

Vinny, I did not follow the previous posts, but it seems some one called you narrow-minded and you wonder why you are branded as such... well, you are indeed narrow minded, b'cos you see every thing with the prism of Islam-Jihad-Terrorism... come out of that hole and try to have a broader look at each problem... every problem has its own cause... but for you, what ever be the problem, and if the result is loss of human life then the cause is Islam-Jihad-Terrorism... if you have any brains you can very well use it to understand why and how and for what purpose this Islamic fundamentalism is being used by the powers in control...

GF/Anwar,

>>But you are writing the virulent hate messages in this forum

These virulent hate messages are direct quotes from Mohammad and Quran!

You have once again very cleverly avoided answering the question whether you agree with Wafa on what she has to say about Mohammad, Quran, Islam and Muslims.

>>You have discovered that insulting the Quran or the Prophet carries no consequences on the internet.

Otherwise you would have beheaded Kafirs like us! Spoken like a true follower of "peaceful" Mohammad. If you think that you are going to silence Kafirs by issuing veiled threats against them, you are entirely mistaken. You and your Jihadi community can unleash terror and death threats, but it is not going to stop Wafa, Tasleema Nasreen, Rushdie and Kafir Hindus from speaking up.

Your behavior has once again proved that you are no different from bearded rioters in streets who want to kill cartoonist. You all think alike. Just because you wage your Jihad through internet(using verbal violence, issuing threats and all) doesn't mean you aren't one of them.

Wafa's analysis of Muslims is right on the dot. She displays rare courage by speaking up her mind. If Muslims listen to her, including closet jihadis like you, there might still be a chance that Islam is not reduced to religion of terrorists and plunderers. Islam has brought only misery to its followers and even greater misery to people who don't follow Islam. It is time for Muslims to deeply introspect and ask for forgiveness from Non-muslims for the genocides and massacres committed in the name of Islam. Only then can the blood-soaked soul of Islam be cleaned of its hatred for Kafir.

Till then, Islam will keep on bringing death and destruction on Kafirs and whom so ever questions the violent teachings of Muhammad and Quran.

J,

>> We did not write the teachings in Quran.

But you are writing the virulent hate messages in this forum.

>> People whom you call Hindu bigots are merely people who reject violence against Kafirs that quran preaches.

I reject violence against non-Muslims, but I do not have to be a bigot or preach hatred in order to do so. In any case your rationalizations to justify your extremism sound hollow. You have discovered that insulting the Quran or the Prophet carries no consequences on the internet, so you have decided to play it to the hilt. It seems that the only way you can feel good about your religion is by putting others down! You are an insult to true Hinduism.

Good night for now!

GF/Anwar,

>>Actually Wafa is good in fighting the kind of hatred and violence that you and Bodepudi preach

We did not write the teachings in Quran, Mohammad did! So your charge of preaching hatred and violence better be directed at your "peaceful" Mohammad!

>> She is speaking to Muslim bigots, but Hindu bigots too can learn a lot from her.

People whom you call Hindu bigots are merely people who reject violence against Kafirs that quran preaches to Muslims.

Wafa is speaking exclusively about "peaceful acts" of Mohammad and Muslims bigots like you. First tell us, whether you agree with her or not?

J,

>> It was a great reading. It explains alot about why GF and Muslims in general act the way they do.

Actually Wafa is good in fighting the kind of hatred and violence that you and Bodepudi preach. She is speaking to Muslim bigots, but Hindu bigots too can learn a lot from her.

Namaste/Bodepudi,

>>Learn from Wafa

It was a great reading. It explains alot about why GF and Muslims in general act the way they do.

BTW, I am not able to access the link that you have posted. Is it working alright? If possible post the contents of the original article.

PS. Don't let GF's abusive language deter you in any way. You are doing a great job of educating us in the finer points of Islam and Mohammad's life.

I think GF fears you the most because he doesn't have any answers to what you write. He fears you because you lay bare Mohammad, his life, his conduct and his teachings. GF fears you because he can't contradict you, because what you quote is actually lifted from quran, hadit or other Muslim texts.

In absence of any sensible answers to your posts, GF sorts to abusive language. Instead of debating with reason, he unleashes verbal violence against you and anyone questioning Quran and Mohammad. Why do GF and Muslims at large behave in such a predictable manner? Perhaps, the answer lies with Mohammad and his violent teachings.

"Learn from Wafa"

Namaste

Thanks for the link . No doubt Wafa has the guts to present her veiws fearlessly.

Namaste/Bodepudi,

>> Learn from Wafa.

You and bagai should form a Wafa fan club since you are the only two idiots who seem to have gone gaga over her!

Namaste/Bodepudi,

>> I know I am facing the TREUTH-corroborated by most professional of historians.

Someone crazed by hatred as you is not capable of judging what is the truth. In fact lying and desperately seeking material to malign and to defame have become your deep-seated character traits.

Vinod,

>> as if the OUTLOOK free speech administrator has appointed you as a teacher.

All I do is to comment on your posts and your narrow-mindedness. There is nothing wrong with that.

>> when you are member of organizations like CAIR.

It is amazing how much resemblance there is between the techniques of the sanghis and the MacCarthyites!


>> threats of the sheer number of the Muslims in India.

This comes under the "low comprehension" category.

Namaste/Bodepudi,

>> Malign and defame" a religion? Who had done it?

You! The more innocent you try to act, the more foolish you look. Your grossly exaggerated accounts of events which are routine by the standards of wars and conquests of world history would deceive only those who are of your ilk.

>> Azeem was asking who pays you to write such "mindless" posts. You haven't answered him.

Ifyou were not such a liar, you would know that I have answered the question three times already. For the fourth time : Fighting bigots and hate merchants is its own reward!

Vinod,

>> You jump to criticize those who hate the jehadies.

That shows your poor comprehension abilities. It is probably too late for you to remedy that.

>> I have no hesitation and shame to accept myself as a shakha prouduct provided you honestly accept that you definitely had your schooling at some madrassa.

Your shakha education is obvious. I have never been in a madrasa, but your thinking that I have is further proof that you don't have the slightest inkling of what I have been saying.

Chaitanya,

>> You are a hate monger yourself.

One has to only see your last post to know who is a hate monger.

Namaste/Bodepudi,

>> He was forcing people out of this forum for simply asking quetions about Islamic presence in India.

Asking questions? Liar, you have been running a sustained hate campaign, with a profusion of copy-pastes, for the past three years on a daily basis to malign and defame the religion of India's biggest minority. You are a despicable low life.

Namaste/Bodepudi,

>> Objecting to even quoting from a Wafa!

Don't try to sound so harmless! You are running a malignant hate campaign and have found Wafa to be a useful tool for your shameful purposes.

Namaste/Bodepudi,

>> By the same token, let's criticize Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Christians and Jews...

Genuine critics come from a different stock than bigots like you who are out to malign and defame the religion of others.

"I differentiate between hatemongers and those who have different opinions. I do not throw epithets at the latter."

You are a hate monger yourself. Why can't you let people post what they want to anyway. You seem to take perverted fun in abusing others(hate monger, whatever you call them), while the posters you abuse just give their genuine opinion. If they are really hate mongers, there is government and it's affiliated agencies to judge them. So far, they don't seem to mind, so what are you getting at really.

"imagine budhists lived in afghanistan and northern pakistan a few centuries ago. now inhabited by blood thirsty monsters."

Same applies to Kashmir. The protesters there need to be gunned one by one until the remaining pack shits in their pants. They don't understand any other language.

joseph

afghanistan, northern pakistan, were budhist
countries. now they have become islamic- where
unparalelled barbarism, cruelty and killings
are to be seen every day.

more then anything then this is an indictment of islam, and those who support this religion.

fanatical and dogmatic arguments by the faruki,s
confirm my belief of islam as an evil religion-
they are so brain washed that they can see no wrong in the acts of fellow muslims

it is also obvious from reading the hate passages in islamic scriptures, the sermons in mosques,but more then anything by the complete barbarism of its followers.no other religion has scriptures which justify killings, forced conversions, laws of blasphemy, and a systamtic
discrimination and opression of women and girls.

imagine budhists lived in afghanistan and northern pakistan a few centuries ago. now inhabited by blood thirsty monsters.

westen countries should nuke these bastards.
it would be a service to humanity.

faruki

you are not in a position to get my lap top confiscated. by the way i know mr vinod mehta.
i met him some time ago.dont see to much of him, because of my engagements with golf and my friends in the bjp. sushma was one i get to meet
at times, when i am not too busy.

just read the criticism by ganesan and al bundy.
its ironic, but maybe your mom can explain its
finer points to you.

why are so dense faruki.just cant stand any comparison of islam with other religions.

understandable old goat. say mehn mehn. be nice.

>> Anwar Patel is also calling names and swearing at commentators who has difference of opinion on certain matters...

I differentiate between hatemongers and those who have different opinions. I do not throw epithets at the latter.

Wow! This post has become pretty hot! But, I am a bit surprised that a sensible person like Anwar Patel is also calling names and swearing at commentators who has difference of opinion on certain matters, instead of clarifying on the observations on Hadith of Quraan by 'Namaste' which are quite perinent. Hope, this post doesn't become a hatemonger's dustbin but rather be a forum of sorting out differences over divergent views. And, my salute to Ashis Nandy for having the guts to criticise the non-secular establishment (herein Gujarat Govt.)and should not backtrack even if he is ostracised by the court or the society...

joseph

i am good friends with my wife, birthe.
likewise with my golfing partner dr petersen.

i get a call nearly every day from my norwegian friend who lives in sweden. i am friends with his wife and her family.

i could write for a longish time, telling you of my christian friends, and some Hindu friends as well.

I am on friendly terms with Irfan Hussain,
but thats all amongst muslims. Muslims are very
touchy. On careless remark and they change from friends to enemies.

The pope made one adverse remark and various muslim countries went up in flames.

Muslims should obey their profit and live in Dar ul Islam, and spare us infidels and kaffirs in
dar ul harb. we will never agree with each other.
so why bother.

It seems to me that this Ashis Nandy is another case of journalist turned mercinary for the moslems, like Kuldip Nayyar. The biggest meneybags today are the moslems, bec of the highly increased price of oil and gas. Journalists, as they grow old, seem to write in favor of those who pay most.

Namaste/Bodepudi,

>> Let Ashis respond to Wafa ...

Let Ashis comment on despicable hate propagandists like yourself.

"Dear Ashis: Pleasae show the equivalent of the following (violence and hatred sanctioned by the "Holy" books in the Dhammapada, Gita, Jain texts."

Well the Granth Sahib calls worshippers of Kali as those who do not know their own fathers.

Namaste/Bodepudi,

>> Following are excerpts from an interview with Arab-American psychiatrist Wafa Sultan...

A full-time hate-propagandist never rests! All that rancor inside your heart must cause intolerable anal itching.

Namaste/Bodepudi,

>> Wafa has already given us that info...

She has not seen your hate propaganda yet!

Bagai,

>> thars why i abandoned religion, because of the caste system.

You could have abandoned the caste system and kept your religion. But it is not for me to say what you should or should not have done. I do not disrespect you for your atheism. I disrespect you because you are an empty headed bigot.

Vinod,

>> Ghulam faruki had the other ID in Anwar Patel.He is unable to explain how he lost it...

You won't understand simply because you don't want to. But that's the way all shakha pracharaks are!

Bagai,

>> the agenda is not to say kind things about each other. it is to express ones honest opinions.

I do express my honest opinion about your hatefulness and your stupidity, don't I?

Vinod (to Bouncingball),

>> Sangha parivaries will have thier own views like how the madrassa product Mr. Faruki and a missionary product like you will have different views.

The usual senseless bilge from this shakha product!

Parbat/Ramdas/Sandhu/Abdullah/Thomas,

>> What honesty can you expect of a character who openly supports Hamas and Hizbollah and throat-cutting Afghan and Iraqi jihadis yet claims to be a secularist?

It seems your ass-licking of the Americans has almost assumed religious dimensions! Who has done more killing and destruction in the Middle East, the U.S.-Israel Axis or the Hamas and the Hezbollah? You would not even support the brave Viet Namese freedom fighters! You are a hopeless case.

Namaste/Bodepudi,

>> Doing his regular Hate/Abuse propaganda, under different names...

I can see that you are doing exactly that, using several ID's at the same time!

>> CAIR (criticized for its terror links by Senators Schumacher of New York and Dick Durbin of Illinois ....)

And other zionists as well as hate-spewers like yourself.

>> never spends time with Mullahs in moderating their views.

I have found enough "mullahs" right here in this forum to pick on!

Parbat/Ramdas/Sandhu/Abdullah/Thomas,

>> Outlook got sick of his violently abusive posts and forced him out? That he is now Anwar Patel?

Forced out? You wish! You have just joined another idiot in this forum who too likes to indulge in self-delusion!

Namaste/Bodepudi,

>> Dear Ashis: Pleasae show the equivalent of the following (violence and hatred sanctioned by the "Holy" books in the Dhammapada, Gita, Jain texts.

One would have to be as vile and depraved as you are in order to go looking for passages in the scriptures of others to quote in one's hate campaign!

Guru Granth Sahib?

Namaste/Bodepudi,

>> Abuse, anger, hatred, violence (against Unbelievers) were sanctified by the Islamic texts and tenets.

One only has to see who is propagating hate in this forum, you or me! You are the one who advocated murder of imams and even genocide in this very forum. I do not however blame your scriptures for the fact that you have turned out to be such a malicious hatemonger and violence-preacher. It was your choice to be the kind of evil person that you are.

J,

>> any one who talks about Hindu Holocaust is either a RSS person or a discredited historian.

The reference is to those who have undertaken to rewrite history with scant evidence and with a political agenda.

>> when Bodepudi quotes various quranic texts...

Bodepudi has a well established hate agenda. Why does he not quote hate messages that are present in scriptures of other religions as well? Why does he not quote from the Quran the words, "There is no compulsion in religion", or the words of the Prophet, "To you your religion, to me mine". We can either sling mud at each other or learn to live with each other.

very few days ago the news has come in indian express that a "Christian nun "was "found to be having sex" "with a driver"and an "embarassed Catholic church"has expelled her after telling that "she has admitted her sin"!

it is the "tip of the ice berg".if you analyse deeply there would be few priests and nuns left who are 'really practising celebacy"in the church.should i become a christian (as somebody has written in this forum asking thehindus to convert)ir rather a father or a nun 'to have both spiritual and sexual pleasures"?

Somebody said in this forum that Karunanidhi does not have any religious practises!it is karunanidhi who drinks "Kanji"and wears "skull caps"during "Ramzan fastings meetings"held by the Muslims.again karunanidhi is often in the company of christian missionaries like Bishop sargunam who pour venom on Hindhu dharma at the behest of foreign christian missionaries and the crores of foregin funds they send every year.

Karunanidhi is on record to have told and written that he carried the Muslim league Flag and shouted "Pakistan zindabad"and worked for the creation of Pakistan.

so when karunanidhi is such a dvoted muslim and a christian and is a close friend of fundamentalist and anti national muslims like Abdul Nizzar Madhani how can one say that he does not have any religion of his own?

faruki

thars why i abandoned religion, because of the caste system.

how about you. when are you goona shave of your beard, and throw away your tassled skull cap.

you still have time to join the civilised human race.

faruki

this forum is neither a sunday or a koran school.
the agenda here is to express ones view, regardless whether you like it or not.

the agenda is not to say kind things about each other. it is to express ones honest opinions.-

you dont belong in this crowd.

no one knows where you belong. you have a islamic mindset- perhaps deoband would be a good place for you.

i am afraid you would be unwelcome in any european debate forum- if so, only to serve drinks and clean up.

First things first, Mr. Devendra Patel. You can not be the Mr. Devendra Patel of The Gujarat Samachar. He is 63 years old, dignified and an author and poet.
------
Bouncing Mad Mud Ball,

At least from "boobs", I have become a ball and, small mercies, not balls. I have to thank you.
Does Hinduism Allow Conversion?.
If it is not allowing, then how your forefathers & now you become non hindu?

You have misunderstood the question. It is about making Non-Hindus in to Hindus and not vice versa. You should learn to look before you leap.
------
Why are Hindus paranoid about Muslims?.
For this excatly same reason, Hindus are saying "hum ko bhi khuni bana diya".

Learn to live with them. You have no other way. They will be One-Third of the World's People in time.
------
How can Communal Harmony be engendered in South Asia?.
By wiping out Pakistan, the gutter of all stinking mud.

I hope some of the gutter mud has not stuck on Messers Montek Singh Aluhwalia, Murli Deora, Pranab Mukherjee and Sardar Manmohan Singh and not forgetting Messers Atal Bihari Vajpayee and Mr. Lal Krishan Advani.

You may like to check the 1947/1948 Dhoti and Canvas shoes of Advanjee. It may have carried that gutter mud on it and that is why he was honest enough to praise Mr. Mohamed Ali Jinnah, which upset the like of you and your Sangh Parivar brothers and sisters.

When you debate with me behave your self. I am a master at giving as good as I get and more.
------
You are leaving imprint of dirtiest mud where you go, first Bangladesh, then Pakistan & now started same thing in US. You are in Vanprashthashram now, at this stage Hindu devote his life for god only. Tell me, when you are throwing the mud here & there, what are you telling to your grandsons?

Tomorrow in Marlborough, Massachusetts, I will tell my eight year old grandson to be the best Ice Hockey Goalkeeper in all of the North- Eastern Seaboard. If his team wins, I will accompany him to the next round in Las Vegas, Nevada and do the same. If the winning streak continue, I will accompany him to Montreal and do the same.
------

Perhaps, Mr. J., and, only, perhaps, the West realises that these attacks stem from Indian intransigence in Jammu and Kashmir and in the East and has nothing to do with global terror.

Have you thought about that?.

J.

Why bother debating with well-known Islamist CAIR propagandist Anwar/Faruki?

What honesty can you expect of a character who openly supports Hamas and Hizbollah and throat-cutting Afghan and Iraqi jihadis yet claims to be a secularist?

He even has to hide his identity now.

Even ultra-dhimmified Outlook found his nauseating abuse impossible to take and kicked him out.

When I became a Bureaucrat, through Lateral Entry in 1972, I was forced to adopt the principle that the Truth rests some where between two extremes and, usually, in the middle, and I still hold on to it.

There are plenty of Blogs, Mr. Lalit Bagai, including those run by those who have converted to Islam.

However, be advised that ridicule may turn in to conviction and you could join the fold.

For the sake of balance, here are some from both sides of the spectrum.

Conservative Beach Girl: Discussing Islam is a crime? For Muslims ...According to the United Nations, even discussing Islam is a "crime"; ... Name: Beach Girl: Location: A Beach, The Right Coast, United States
...
politicalbeachgirl.blogspot.com/2008/05/dis
cussing-islam-is-crime-for-muslims.html - 41k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

Blogs tagged as Islam - Blog Flux Blogs tagged as Islam by their ...Food for thought and discussion. Brief comments on religious extremism, ... Anti-jihad, Anti-Islam, Pro-West, Pro-USA: Helping spread politically incorrect ...
topsites.blogflux.com/tag/islam - 37k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

Islamic Blog - A Muslim Blog covering Middle Eastern, Islamic and ...Hijab Wars - Redefining Islam and Struggle of Muslim Ideologies • 02.08.08 ... IqraSense.com is one of the most visited blog discussing Muslim, Islamic and ...
www.iqrasense.com/ - 34k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

The Counterterrorism Blog: Radical Indoctrination in the U.S. PrisonsAug 25, 2005 ... The Counterterrorism Blog has an interesting post regarding the spread of Islam within prison populations, discussing the fear that converts
...
counterterror.typepad.com/the_counterterror
ism_blog/2005/08/radical_indoctr.html - 30k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

Emergent Islam? Surfing toward an Ultra-modern American Faith Life ...May 22, 2008 ... The Emergent Village blog discussion linked to the blog of Helen .... If you hadn’t noticed there is an “Emergent Islam” in America.
...
www.religionwriter.com/islam-in-america/eme
rgent-islam-surfing-toward-an-ultra-modern-america
n-faith-life/ - 104k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

In modern parlance, Mr. J, it transalates in to: a Hindu should carry altruism in one hand and realism in the other.

If one examines, its rise closely without bias or prejudice, Islam's rise follows from this approach.

Why repeat, Ms/Mr. Namaste?.

I do not believe that Mr. Ghulam Y. Faruki expresses a dishonest opinion in this Forum, Mr. Lalit Bagai.

Each one expresses an opinion that is conditioned by his or her education, exposure, inclination and environment.

I live in Pakistan and am. therefore, not as concerned by the rise of Islam as an Indian Hindu, who fears being overwhelmend by it. My conditioning differs from yours because of our differing Environments.

The issue arises when people begin mouthing the Sangh Parivar line or the Secular line or the Religious line as if that is the only line and all other lines and believers need to be condemned.

May I submit that you suffer from that syndrome too. If this Forum is to have any meaning apart from venting steam , one must develop the capacity to listen and understand.

Life is a two-way street.

http://www.economist.co...y.cfm?story_id=11554264

------
I do not know about Mr. Lalit Bagai, Mr. Parbat Laldeng. However, this is what the Economist had to say in general.

>> VHP is trying to remind Hindus that use of weapons is not always out of bounds. Sometimes fighting war is the most noble alternative

That is the job of the state and not by private communal groups.

Lalit:

WhaaaaaaaT?!!!!!

Where has dear Islamist hypocrite Ghulam Faruki gone?

You mean to say even incredibly dhimmified Outlook got sick of his violently abusive posts and forced him out? That he is now Anwar Patel?

Ha ha ha !!!!

The great biter finally bit !

He forced so many others out and made them change names...

Still, I believe in free expression. Even the appalling GF should not have been kicked out.

Do you agree?

By the way, how is your hedge-fund business going?

joseph

is the purpose of this forum to express our honest opinions, or is it something else ie

to applaud people like asish nandy, vinod mehta
or the psedoseculars.

frankly i would be interested in a blog where
people like fauki are not present. his presence
here is meant to discourage expression of the adverse view we have about islam, communists and muslims.

if frank discussions lead to widening the communal devide, so be it. we are not policians or sociologists, just ordinary people expressing
our views, biased, evil or otherwise.there is no hidden agenda.

knowing this is an open forum, i fail to understand why faruki is here. surely he needs
us as little as we need him here,

Lalit Bagai,

>>i think its silly to buy trishuls. better to get
hold of kalasnikovs, and other modern weapons.

I think VHP's campaign to arm Hindus with trishuls, even though symbolic, has a big significance. VHP is trying to remind Hindus that use of weapons is not always out of bounds. Sometimes fighting war is the most noble alternative.

For centuries, Hindu have been dumbed down with an overdose of peace and non-violence. The consequences of this have been disastrous. Hindu scriptures Mahabharata and Ramayana, are all about fight/war between dharma and adharma. So if such a situation rises again, where Hindus have to fight against adharma to protect their dharma, the use of weapons and fighting war is not out of bounds.

Hindus scriptures have always emphasized carrying "Shaastra" (meaning book) in one hand and Shastra (meaning weapon) in another hand. For too long, Hindus carried only "Shaastra", while the "Shastra" has been forgotten. VHP is now trying to rectify this historical anomaly. Once the mental block against carrying "Shastra" (weapon) is removed, is won't take too long for Hindus to switch from Trishuls(symbolic in nature) to AK-47(more practical). In Maharashtra we have already started seeing initial attempts by Hindu groups to manufacture bombs. If "secular" Indian state refuses to fight against Jihadis, Hindus groups might start taking it upon themselves to fight Islamic terrorists and their support bases.

faruki/Joseph

are there blogs like this one in usa, where muslims and americans exchange views.

are the exchanges similar to those here,

do you also lecture americans and teach them about islam-the peaceful and tolerant religion-
and how rotten americans are.

if there such a blog, i sure would like to join in the fun.

GF/Anwar,

>>Absolute bunk spread by the parivar, and abetted by sangh apologists such as Francois Gautier and Koenread Elst and discredited historians such as Will Durant.

In short, any one who talks about Hindu Holocaust is either a RSS person or a discredited historian. It is a classic case of shooting the messenger!

Similarly, when Bodepudi quotes various quranic texts, you start abusing him and charge him with spreading hatred. Rather than admiting the fact quran is full of hatred and violence for Kafirs, you start attacking the person(s) who post/write texts from quran. Bodipudi shouldn't be your object of hate, after all he is just a messenger. The real object of hate should be the source which contains those hateful messages for Kafirs in the first place.

Joseph/Bouncingball,

>>Pardon my saying so, J, hindunet is unlikely to be unbiased.

That charge can be made against anyone. Western media and news source have always ignored India as victim of Islamic genocide and terrorism. When ever someone talks about Islamic terrorism attacks- they always talks about 9/11, London, Madrid, Bali, Beslan, etc. You will never find western journalists talking about Jaipur, Mumbai or Delhi. Just because west refuses to acknowledge these attacks and list them along with London and Madrid, doesn't mean that they didn't actually happen. Hindu Holocaust has similarly been ignored by the west.

faruki

the hindu middleclasses are doing well. perhaps
they are more confident then they should be. a
bit more humble. however despite these failings
they are rated high in the international scale.

we are accused of being unfair, full of prejudices against muslims in particular. we are
criticised for being selfish and not doing enough for the poor, complaining about reservations and qotas.

regarding prejudice against muslims we are not
doing anything to worsen the situation. we observe reality on the ground and then make a
judgement about them. the reality on the ground is pretty awful, and we say so. no amounts of
angry mails from faruki, asish nandy or whoever
can disapprove of the basis on which we judge muslims. its based on cold facts and hard logic.

the same criteria is used to evaluate the performance of communist bongos, bihari bhayias etc. when their performance is bad, we just say so. same for muslims. is there anything to cheer about faruki. if so just tell us, instead of
whineing like a beaten dog.

faruki and his buddies want all legitimate criticism of islam and muslims to stop. it will not. it will continue as now, and probably get
more vehement.

my view is that we have a fundamental clash between modernists and the people with medieval
attitudes. the latter includes mostly muslims, communists and a few others.

they will be defeated , but it could decades.
nazism and stalinism have been destroyed, by the
inherent forces of modernity and reason.

Bouncing Mad Mud Ball,

Does Hinduism Allow Conversion?.
If it is not allowing, then how your forefathers & now you become non hindu?

Why are Hindus paranoid about Muslims?.
For this excatly same reason, Hindus are saying "hum ko bhi khuni bana diya".

How can Communal Harmony be engendered in South Asia?.
By wiping out Pakistan, the gutter of all stinking mud.

You are leaving imprint of dirtiest mud where you go, first Bangladesh, then Pakistan & now started same thing in US. You are in Vanprashthashram now, at this stage Hindu devote his life for god only. Tell me, when you are throwing the mud here & there, what are you telling to your grandsons?

faruki

neither hindus or the hindu religion is so maligned, hated in the outside world as is islam
and muslims. you are in conflict with the whole of the world community.

i dont know about the usa, but are americans more
friendly towards you then us muslim haters in this forum.

all in all it would be better for muslims to solve what ever problems they have, by debates in their own community.

few of us respect, or are influenced by your views. you are a big bore, with the same angry
and hateful comments all the time.


do something else.

Bagai,

>> few if any accept your efforts to defend islam.

You have said that 100 times already. It is an inane and asinine statement to start with. How often do you plan to repeat it? Anyway I must go to bed. Don't fill up the forum space with your crass posts while I am asleep.

faruki

how about proveing your oft repeated claim that hindu,christian and budhist scriptures have messages of hate in them.

besides one does not need any scholars to confirm
the hate messages of islam, they are simple and
straight forward.

its about converting the infidels and killing them if they refuse.

its hell for infidels, described very well by
the koran.

the place of women is carefully explained.

why are you spending the last precious years of your life defending islam. ? plain insanity.

faruki

few if any accept your efforts to defend islam.
the message of this book are now known far and wide. exmuslims have eloborated on this in tv
interviewd aired by al jazeera.

unless you insist on decieveing yourself, you must know that islam is the most criticised religion today, and there are good reasons for this.you cant wish them away, and you cant behave like a pidgeon who close their eyes when
they feel danger.

you say yourself that islam needs to become more democratic, liberal and secular. all of us agree,
but it does not look as if this is gonna happen.

if your agenda is to follow a great religion- i
dont see any need for any at all- then just go
shopping for a religion which meets your requirement. islam is not going to reform in your life time unless you live as long as mathusaleh.

meanwhile your desparate attempts to white wash
islam are just a waste of time. no one in this forum -excepting muslims- believe in what you say.

better that you enjoy yourself. relish your halva, and drink a bottle of mecca cola. life can
be fun also for muslims.

allah be praised

I go to bed carrying this thought with me, Mr. Devendra Patel. You ask an Indian Hindu, the three questions I have put to you and there is the silence of a graveyard.

You ask him or her to befriend a non-Hindu, there is even greater silence.

You ask him or her, about Muslims and Christians and you will get one million thoughts on how evil they are.

Good Night from Lawrenceville.

Have you found a Muslim friend, Mr. Vinod?. He should be some one other than Mr. Ramachandra Guha's mutton seller, Sajjud Mia.

I will throw one good thing to you this time, Mr, Devendra Patel of Ahmedabad, India.

Does Hinduism Allow Conversion?.

Why are Hindus paranoid about Muslims?.

How can Communal Harmony be engendered in South Asia?.

You may suggest to your namesake, Mr. Devendra Patel of the Gujurat Samachar, if you are not him, to hold weekly pools in his Newspaper and you may present us the result when available.

As Gujarat is staunchly Hindu, the results will be enlightening.

Old people's "boobs" can not bounce.

Bouncing Boobs

"Must most Indians be stinkingly sarcastic, Mr. Devendra Patel?. It seems you have forgotten what you your self observed about "aap ko khuni" and alluded to Pakistan. I just corrected you."

You are getting old & also muddier. So it is natural when somebody throws even some good things to you, only mud will be bounced back.

Namaste/Bodepudi,

>> Middle Class Muslims? They are working overtime supporting the terror groups....

Seems all the worst bigots like you are also terrible liars. Do these two qualities go together?

Where are you, Mr. J?. There is so much inviting material waiting to be commented upon.

If Hindus were able to develop a Consensus, Namaste, Alexander would have drowned in the Indus delta or died near Multan. Mohammed Bin Qasim would have set sail away, and so on.

The absence of a Hindu consensus is a 4,000 year old given.

Just for the record, Mr. Vinod, I have two years to go to be Seventy.

Make a Christian your friend tomorrow, Mr. Vinod, even if he comes from Hampankatta or Moodbidri.

Amar, Akbar, Anthony is where one begins, Mr. Vinod. Make a Muslim your friend today, even if he comes from Karkala or Ullal.

Characteristics of religious groups
Religious
group Population
% Growth
(1991–2001) Sex ratio
(total) Literacy
(%) Work participation
(%) Sex ratio
(rural) Sex ratio
(urban) Sex ratio
(child)å[›]
Hindu 80.46% 20.3% 931 65.1% 40.4% 944 894 925
Muslim 13.43% 36.0% 936 59.1% 31.3% 953 907 950
Christian 2.34% 22.6% 1009 80.3% 39.7% 1001 1026 964
Sikh 1.87% 18.2% 893 69.4% 37.7% 895 886 786
Buddhist 0.77% 18.2% 953 72.7% 40.6% 958 944 942
Jain 0.41% 26.0% 940 94.1% 32.9% 937 941 870
Animist, others 0.65% 103.1% 992 47.0% 48.4% 995 966 976
------
Although this Table is badly structured and has much data, it will, Mr. Vinod, tell you as to why Hindus are paranoid about Muslims and Muslims feel discriminated and deprived.

The Inter-Censal growth rate was 36% for Muslims as against 20% for Hindus. Hindus fear that they will be over-whelmed.

For Muslims, the Literacy Rate and the Work Participation Rate are low. Muslims feel deprived.

It does need to be a Rocket Scientist to decipher that. However, it needs much more than being one to allay Hindu fears and Muslim frustration.

Let us see who can come up with something that is decent, acceptable and workable. Whatever the Sangh Parivar and the Bajapa may want, they will be unable to live outside this Demographic Situation.

The following is a breakdown of India's religious communities:

Religions of India[24]á[›]â[›]
Religion Population Percent
All religions 1,228,610,328 100.00%
Hindus 867,578,868 80.456%
Muslims 158,188,240 13.434%
Christians 24,080,016 2.341%
Sikhs 19,215,730 1.868%
Buddhists 16,947,992 1.504%
Jains 4,225,053 0.41%
Others 6,639,626 0.645%
Religion not stated 727,588 0.07%
------
Mr. Vinod, you talk about weeding out non-Hindus like Mr. Ghulam Y. Faruki and myself. Others talk about nuking out Muslims, and, still others, of driving them in to the sea or to Pakistan or to Saudi Arabia.

May I invite you, therefore, to take a look at the Table above and tell me how many of the above people need weeding out before the Hindus of India feel safe.

May I also be allowed to submit that the task before you is impossible and it serves no useful purpose, therefore, to talk about methods that are difficult to carry out.

May I recommend that you befriend, instead, two Buddhists, Sikhs and Christians, each, and fourteen Muslims with the Eighty Hindus that you befriend in future.

You will, in time, develop a circle of friends that represent the demographic profile of India. You may feel out of sorts and awkward, initially. However, with time you will be invited for Vesak, Gurupurabs, Christmas and Eid. You will in turn have occasion to invite your friends to Hindu Festivals.

For Christmas this year in Karachi, we had Parsees, Hindus, Muslims and Christians at Dinner. Religious differences never came up except to point out which dishes had beef, pork or egg in them.

Namaste/Bodepudi,

>> Hindus need security from the terror support groups like the CAIR...

Run Bodepudi, run! CAIR is coming, CAIR is coming!

Vinod,

>> Hindus have to look for and make arrangements for their own security...
>> One has taken up to ordinary arms and the other taken up sophisticated stuff.

It seems you will rush in to agree with even the most objectionable argument that Bagai makes!

Namaste/Bodepudi,

>> Don't Hindus deserve security...

We all need security form the hateful antics of agitators like you.

Bagai,

>> several muslims in india have taken up arms against hindus.

Hindus and Muslims have unfortunately taken up arms against each other. Both of them should be disarmed. At the same time a hate-spewing violence-preaching bigot like yourself should have his computer forfeited.

Stop drinking and go to bed!

faruki

several muslims in india have taken up arms against hindus. my strong belief is that hindus should arm themselves , because the govt is unable and unwilling to act.

that is the honourable way of defending oneself.
i know that my family in north west frontier province were always well armed and vigilant. otherwise the violent tribesmen would have killed all of us.they had also a bee in their bonnet about killing kaffirs.

a strong and vigilant hindu community-basically
peaceful- is required to maintain peace and stability in india.

vinod

i think its silly to buy trishuls. better to get
hold of kalasnikovs, and other modern weapons.

i despair. when will hindus learn.

faruki

muslims have in general antagonised hindus in india, the britts in england, the french in france, and the list is long.

however you can live in your own world where muslims are loved and praised by all- but then its a make belief world.

criticiseing muslims, hindus, communists is criticism, and not spewing hate.if the hindus were as hateful as muslims are in their and even
foreign countries, then there would be more violent conflicts, and not so many hindu pseudoseculars in india.hindus criticise islam and muslims in an effort to lead them on to the right path of dharma.

if you look at the world as it is, then you will
realise that there is a conflict between various
religions, various other interests, the rich vs the poor etc.

to realise this you need to sit quietly and think, maybe take up meditation. americans are
followers of yoga and meditation and these practices would be most helpful to muslims as well.i am sure that bodepudi would give you a holy mantra to recite, which will make you more
democratic, liberal and secular. these are the exact words you used, in your wish for progress
of the muslim community.

peace.

jai sita ram

Bagai,

>> You have never explained why you follow a religion which ....

Didn't people continue to follow a religion for thousands of years even though it permitted burning of the widows and which sanctioned an evil caste system? The real question is when will you stop asking juvenile questions that only reveal your ill-breeding?

faruki

dr sultan and friends have vilified islam, much
more then any of us.

you are tongue tied in front of her, but keep
bleating against the tiniest criticism by good people like vinod, dorge, namo, lbmn, j, and
myself.

dr sultan has said that the muslims can not reason, and go in for violence. school pschologists have also claimed that quite a few muslim children in denmark are unable to use logic for problem solveing. today i read a report
by a danish sociologist saying that the iq of islamic nations lags behind others ie europeans,
chinese etc.

now this is a scientific report based on immense amount of data, and the report is by a well known person.

however you refute any evidence which goes against you. this is the reason for the stagnation of the muslim world- which i truly regret. but there is little we can do to help you
guys. you refuse our help and guidance in a most offensive manner.

may allahs blessings be with you and lead you on the right path.

Faruki

You have never explained why you follow a religion which has so much hate imbedded in it.

The only reason could be, is that you have been indoctrinated in it since early childhood, and
are now sorrounded by people of a similar mindset.

Its futile to repeat our views of Islam and
Mohammet in this forum. Likewise take a tip and
stop your most unintelligent retorts.

The world community will deal with muslims , and
I think its not gonna be a nice situation.

Intransigent Islam and muslims are battleing it out against Israel in Gaza, Americans and their allies in Iraq and Afghanistan, and muslims are fighting with other muslims in other parts of the world.

Sunnis against Shias(declared appostates) Ahmediyas, and others.

Turks are battleing Kurds. And muslim extremists
are spreading terror whereever they can.

However you demand that we close our eyes, our ears and our mouth, and listen to your sermons about your peaceful and tolerant religion.

>> Hinduism is flourishing quite well in secular India, and is probably stronger now than at any other time in history.

This is true, if one has the broadmindedness to cheer the assertion of power by the tradictionally discriminated/disadvantaged sections.

>> ‘Meet boldness with boldness; impertinence by impertinence must be met; villainy by villainy must be met.’

If by this, it is meant to use strict enforcement of the law by the law enforcing agengies within the constitutional framework, it needs to be done with extra care/effort where necessary. If it is meant that people can form communal groups or private armies, arm themselves and take law into their own hands, that is not accepted in a democratic society.

I am sorry. The mouse refused to get unmoused.

Sorry, Mr. Vinod.

books.google.com/books?isbn=0312180586...

How to Become a Hindu, Chapter 5: Does Hinduism Accept Newcomers- 9:06amThose who do believe in karma, reincarnation and union with the Divine have, .... the controversial subject of conversion to Hinduism, among other subjects.
...
www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/hb
h/hbh_ch-5.html - 38k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

books.google.com/books?isbn=0312180586...

How to Become a Hindu, Chapter 5: Does Hinduism Accept Newcomers- 9:06amThose who do believe in karma, reincarnation and union with the Divine have, .... the controversial subject of conversion to Hinduism, among other subjects.
...
www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/hb
h/hbh_ch-5.html - 38k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

books.google.com/books?isbn=0312180586...

How to Become a Hindu, Chapter 5: Does Hinduism Accept Newcomers- 9:06amThose who do believe in karma, reincarnation and union with the Divine have, .... the controversial subject of conversion to Hinduism, among other subjects.
...
www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/hb
h/hbh_ch-5.html - 38k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

books.google.com/books?isbn=0312180586...

How to Become a Hindu, Chapter 5: Does Hinduism Accept Newcomers- 9:06amThose who do believe in karma, reincarnation and union with the Divine have, .... the controversial subject of conversion to Hinduism, among other subjects.
...
www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/hb
h/hbh_ch-5.html - 38k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

Vinod,

>> Has any one assigned you the job ....

You want to write senseless and hateful posts but you do not want anyone to say anything about them!

Bagai,

>> refer to the many hate passages from islamic scriptures.

Firstly, remember that they are quoted by our resident bigots whose sole purpose is to spew hate. Secondly they do not refer to annotations by scholars who have put these passage in context. Thirdly they do not quote similar passages from scriptures of other religions. And lastly I have answered this question from you more than once before, so why the hell do you keep asking the same questions again and again? Are you going to keep coming up with similar dumb questions for the rest of the day?

Vinod,

>> your uncle Ashish Nandy has done enough damage.

Typical balderdash from the pinhead!

faruki

i know that you get outraged when people repeatedly refer to the many hate passages from islamic scriptures, which are taught in schools,
and preached in mosques.

i suppose there is no point in referring to them, as it just makes you angry and inflamed.

muslims will always worship mohammet regardless of what evidence is produced. muslims will like
wise reject any reference to the hate passages
from the koran, which have been commented to
by ex muslims. i will just mention dr wafa sultan, as one who speaks openly and courageously about islam, and we do not see people like you contradicting her.i wish you would oppose her angry views about mohammet.

i believe that faiths like islam, are instrinsically against most other faiths. we have
seen the long conflicts between christians and muslims, and now between muslims and hindus/budhists. there has to be some compelling
reasons for these conflicts. its futile to paper
the devide- intellectual dishonesty is what i call it.

let us also admit that all of us are biased in favour of our religions. muslims for islam, hindus for hinduism, and christians for christianity. and so forth.

this is unlikely to change any time soon.

thats reality- its best to accept it, and then
decide what the next move should be. meanwhile
enjoy usa, where you find ample opportunity to air your views about us.

finally, hindus have with or without good reasons become quite disillusioned by muslim behaviour and attitudes. maybe we are wrong in doing so, but i feel that hindus ,like westerners have some good reasons for their dissatisfaction.

i hope you enjoy your halwa- dont let it fall on
your beard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history



http://www.opendemocrac...global_history_genocide


------
Pardon my saying so, J, hindunet is unlikely to be unbiased.

Paul/Bodepudi,

>> Karen Armstrong: Secular/Dhimmi Distortions.

While people are trying to converse with each other, an idiotic bigot like you has to keep coming up with your copy/paste hate propaganda!!!

J,

>> It is estimated that the Islamic conquest and rule in India may have resulted in killing of an estimated 50-80 million Hindus and other indigenous religion people.

Absolute bunk spread by the parivar, and abetted by sangh apologists such as Francois Gautier and Koenread Elst and discredited historians such as Will Durant.

Paul/Bodepudi,

>> Dear Ashis Nandy: Please do RESEARCH on Islamic texts and tenets...

You want everyone to become hate merchants like yourself and create divisions and discords between people. You should be ashamed of yourself.

J,

>> we are talking only about acquiring Islamic body and not the Islamic soul.

Islamic soul is fine and so is the Hindu soul. Both Islam and Hinduism need to shed their jehadi aspects (and both need to ignore Shourie!)

Paul/Bodepudi,

>> Talking of THESE FACTS of ISLAM is branded as HATE...

Making gross exaggerations and trumping up figures are all a part of your hate propaganda. Your sole aim is to prevent any improvement in communal relations.

The questions keep coming




The search for Truth is eternal



The effort must continue



Sarcastic louts must be ignored



Boston here I come on Saturday.

Joseph/Bouncingball,

Some more links for you. Very informative.


http://www.hindutva.org/holocaust1.html


http://www.hindutva.org/holocaust2.html


http://www.geocities.com/lavlesh/holocaust1.html


http://www.islam-watch....lamgirHussain/india.htm


(If some of these links are not clickable, copy and paste it in your browser's addressbar and then press enter)

Joseph/Bouncingball,

I am giving you few more links on the same subject:

""The massacres perpetuated by Muslims in India are unparalleled in history, bigger than the Holocaust of the Jews by the Nazis; or the massacre of the Armenians by the Turks; more extensive even than the slaughter of the South American native populations by the invading Spanish and Portuguese."

- Francois Gautier "

http://www.hindunet.com...llapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

kumar

bangalore

what you want does not matter a damn.

hindus are not following manu smriti. most
bjp states are well run. you can follow this in trend in bangalore.

if you opt for mulayam singh, then you are the
stupid one.

Joseph/Bouncingball,

>>Just for the record and without meaning to justify it, the "Holocaust" in India was "minor" by World standards.

"Islamic imperialism came with a different code - the Sunnah of the Prophet. It required its warriors to fall upon the helpless civil population after a decisive victory had been won on the battlefield. It required them to sack and burn down villages and towns after the defenders had died fighting or had fled. The cows, the Brahmins, and the Bhikshus invited their special attention in mass murders of non-combatants. The temples and monasteries were their special targets in an orgy of pillage and arson. Those whom they did not kill, they captured and sold as slaves. The magnitude of the booty looted even from the bodies of the dead, was a measure of the success of a military mission. And they did all this as mujahids (holy warriors) and ghazls (kafir-killers) in the service of Allah and his Last Prophet.

It is estimated that the Islamic conquest and rule in India may have resulted in killing of an estimated 50-80 million Hindus and other indigenous religion people. Such savagery can only be compared to the one committed by the Spaniards in the South American continent. Koenraad Elst estimates that out of the population of native Continental South America of 1492, which stood at 90 million, only 32 million survived; terrible figures indeed but who talks about them today [Negationism in India]? Such a towering figure of destruction of human lives by the Muslim rulers of India may appear a suspect. However, in the war of independence of Bangladesh, the Pakistanis killed 2-3 million people in just 9 month in the age of modern civilization and the world hardly took a notice of it. Hence, it is hardly impossible that Islamic rulers might have had condemned up to 80 million indigenous people to death in a vast region in a long span of almost 1000 years in the medieval age of barbarity. "

http://www.freerepublic...-religion/1653953/posts

kumar

bangalore

cause and effect can be justified logically.
the jews, muslims believe in an eye for an eye.
i dont know about christians wrt their religion, but christian nations have used this principle
throughout their history.

hindus do not believe in violence, but they should. i dont believe in the gandhian theory
of non violence.its for suckers.

most muslims and christians do not believe or practice it either. however you are ever ready to give us your half pennies advice.give it to muslims or christians instead.

stop kidding us. hindus must fight back, and this
is clear from the lessons of history.

FF/GF/Anwar,

>>In other words islamicize Hinduism!

Excatly! There is need for Hinduism to acquire Islamic body to save its soul. Mind you we are talking only about acquiring Islamic body and not the Islamic soul. The soul/ethos will remain Hindu. There is an excellent article by Arun Shourie which should make things clear.

"In the great work, Gita Rahasya, that he wrote in the Mandalay prison, the Lokmanya invokes Sri Samartha, ‘Meet boldness with boldness; impertinence by impertinence must be met; villainy by villainy must be met.’ Large-heartedness towards those who are grasping? Forgiveness towards those who are cruel?"

"The three great religions that originated in Palestine and Saudi Arabia — Judaism, Christianity and Islam — have been exclusivist — each has insisted that it alone is true — and aggressive. The Indic religions — Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism — have been inclusive, they have been indulgent of the claims of others. But how may the latter sort survive when it is confronted by one that aims at power, acquires it, and then uses it to enlarge its dominion? How is the Indic sort to survive when the other uses the sword as well as other resources — organised missionaries, money, the state — to proselytise and to convert? Nor is this question facing just the Hindus in India today. It is facing the adherents of Indic traditions wherever they are: look at the Hindus in Indonesia and Malaysia; look at the Buddhists in Tibet, now in Thailand too. It is because of this vice, and the realisation born from what had already come to pass that Swami Vivekananda, for instance, while asking the Hindus to retain their Hindu soul, exhorted them to acquire an ‘Islamic body’."

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/254969._.html

Paul/Bodepudi,

>> The Islamic “Bible” is the Koran, the Sira and the Hadith...

The only peddler of hate who would go to dhimmi watch to copy and paste his foul and sick messages is Bodepudi, the most execrable and loathsome purveyor of acrimony and malevolence in this forum.

Must most Indians be stinkingly sarcastic, Mr. Devendra Patel?. It seems you have forgotten what you your self observed about "aap ko khuni" and alluded to Pakistan. I just corrected you.

Keep bouncing every thing.

I have to thank you, J. I can only hope that our exchanges will catalyse sensible and meaningful responses. I would have loved Messers Bagai and Dorje to add their comment. However, they seem to be conspicuous by their absence.

Just for the record and without meaning to justify it, the "Holocaust" in India was "minor" by World standards.

J,

>> An effective way to achieve it, would be to politicise Hindu temples and its priests. Hindu Priests and multitude of Hindu Holymen must take it upon themselves to guide their followers to vote for a particular political party which is best suited to protect the lives and faith of Hindus. Various Hindu Shrines and Muths should publicly call for the boycott of anti-Hindu political parties. Hindu temples should issue political diktats to the faithful just like Churches and Mosques do.

In other words islamicize Hinduism! Theremis a real need is to make Islam more democratic, liberal and secular, but you want Hinduism to move the other way, i.e. backwards. Hinduism is flourishing quite well in secular India, and is probably stronger now than at any other time in history. Creating a paranoia about Hinduism being in danger is a strategy of the Hindutvadis to help achieve their objective of fostering hypernationalism. Their falsification of history with trumped up figures of the alleged "biggest holocaust in the world", when figures have been presented several times in this very forum to show that what happened in India did not even come close to world's major massacres, is in line with the same objective. While they pretend to promote Hinduism, their thoughts, words and deeds are all directed at defaming and vilifying Islam. The sense of security and confidence that an 82% majority should feel in itself is being undermined by the right wing ideologues with the result that minorities feel even greater insecurity and anxiety.

Your response is welcome. It is such debate that needs to be encouraged on these pages, even if there is absence of total agreement. One does get tired of this Hindu-Muslim thing with asides about Christianity brought in by Mr. Vinod.

Every one creates an enemy in order to justify his or her being. An enemy acts as a balancer and a threat which is not unuseful. It is said that even the Abrahamic God had to create the Devil. With the demise of the U. S. S. R., it did not take long for the West to make Islam and Muslims its enemy.

As to any impending India-China War, I believe the possibility is remote. Checkmating is the more appropriate scenario as desired by the West.

As I see it, this Century belongs to Islam in the Religious Sense, and to the East in the Socio-Economic Sphere. China has understood that and is coalescing with Muslim countries and its Eastern neighbours.

India under the U. S. A.'s tutelage or prompting sees this as a threat rather than an opportunity. I see it as an opportunity for India and, therefore, keep repeating, ad nauseum to some, that it should join the Hub.

I have done sufficient work in this field to divide the World in to Blocks which are less "solid" than the Soviet Union but far more meaningful.

If I may be permitted to say so, India is joining the wrong block. The block that is diminishing in importance and needs India as a prop and as a checkmate for China, which in 17 years or so will "control" the World with its Affiliates and Associates.

Join the Hub.

Is your long analysis of the "Sira" worth it, Mr. Paul?. Was its goal to antagonise further and increase the divide?.

Om Shanti Om. Salam. Shalom. Peace. These come first.

Cause and effect is the most essential facet of human existense and behaviour, Mr. Kumar. It is important to distinguish as to the nature of the cause and who caused it.

Was not our World far more peaceful before the so-called War On Terror?.

Joseph/Bouncingball,

>>The Truth, as they say, J, rests about half-way between your views and Mr. Kumar's.

The corollary of above line of argument is that Truth gravitates towards a person, if he keeps on taking increasingly extreme positions.

Paul,

Your post was very informative. Good job!

The Truth, as they say, J, rests about half-way between your views and Mr. Kumar's.

Kumar,

>>We are fine with our secular humanist constitution

India's "secularism" is a cruel joke on Hindus. "Secularism" in India is perverted form of anti-Hinduism practiced by Hindu-haters of various shades. These Hindu-haters use fancy terms such as "secular", "progressive", "liberal" and "humanist" to describe their anti-Hindu hate mongering.

>>we are on our way to get our first dalit/OBC prime minister soon.

Will Jihadis stop killing Hindus if Mayawati becomes PM? Do you ever see the world beyond your casteist view point?

>>We do not want to go back to stone ages (with manusmrithi as constitution?).

You are being be very deceitful when you compare Hindu rule as going back to stone age. You will never accept India as Hindu country, but will be more then willing to get killed at the hands of Islamic marauders.

You seem to a copy of modern day Jaichand, who hated his countrymen more than Islamic hordes.

>>So many times we have heard Modi and Co. use justification of "cause and effect, action and reaction" for their riots.

Why are you forgetting your "humanist" "secular" comrades, who justify Indian Muslim's support to terrorism as a fallout of Gujarat riots. A little dose of intellectual honesty will do a lot of good for your Hindu-hating "humanist" soul.

TVR Shenoy is right on target(as usual)


http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jun/25flip.htm

Bouncingball,

>> I am critical of radical Islam .. I believe it as a result of Neo-Con over-kill .. I am a great believer in cause and effect, action and reaction

This is an ethic that does not go above that of Modi/RSS/BJP. So many times we have heard Modi and Co. use justification of "cause and effect, action and reaction" for their riots.

Bouncingball,

>> India should declare that it is a Hindu state

We are fine with our secular humanist constitution and we are on our way to get our first dalit/OBC prime minister soon. We do not want to go back to stone ages (with manusmrithi as constitution?).

Joseph/Bounchingball,

>> Hinduism will flourish and reach that critical mass that will ensure World balance and harmony if it opens up instead of shutting itself in in India.

By that if you mean that Hinduism should take up Proselyting, it is a valid argument.

>> With a 20% Minority that has grown more rapidly than the Majority in the last Century, it is an impossible task to make India exclusively Hindu.

If Malaysia with 45% minority population can retain its increasingly strong Muslims identity, 20% minority population should not deter Hindus.

>> India can never become truly Secular given its demographic profile.
>>In the circumstance, India should declare that it is a Hindu state that welcomes and tolerates all faiths. Anything else will be hypocrisy.

Totally agree! Good job, Mr. Joseph.

>> As to why invaders were able to enter India, beginning from Alexander, with little resistance. This is because India was never a unified whole. Even in 1947, it consisted of some 800 states and principalities. The battles were against rulers whom the invaders first met.

If Hindu rulers had even an iota of Grey matter, they would have drawn lessons from Alexander’s invasion. In subsequent invasions, they should have pooled their resources to defeat the aggressors. But alas! they never did.

Invasion after invasion, the same pattern was repeated but they still didn't learn. I am still searching for an answer. It seems to me that these rulers hated each others so much that they just stood still while watching their neighboring kingdoms being reduced to ruins, not realizing that the same fate awaited them.

>> In the present day and age, India will not face externat threats. All threats will be internal

China and Pakistan are the two biggest external threats. If I were to hazard a guess, I would say that in next 5 years there is going to be a India-China war. India should start preparing for it at the earliest. According to recent events it seems that they already have.

These external threats have an internal dimension too, which manifests itself in terms of religion or ideology inspired terrorism.

India has to be extra vigilant against internal and especially external threats, lest China or Pakistan carryout a Kargil like adventure again. India should never lull itself into false sense of security.

>> Hinduism can be preserved and Hindus made safer if they embrace peace.

“Embracing peace” is just an empty rhetoric when faced with Jihadis. It doesn’t make any difference. What good did “embracing peace” has to Hindus in Kashmir and elsewhere?

Joseph/Bounchingball,

I read your post regarding the points that you suggested for remedying the situation that Hindus often find themselves in. I agree with some of these points and disagree with others. They are as follows:

I agree with :

1. Forsake altruism for realism -
This is an entirely valid point. The real question is how to achieve it? In my opinion, Hinduism has to become a politically aware religion like Islam (which is more of a political and military ideology masked as religion) and Christianity. An effective way to achieve it, would be to politicise Hindu temples and its priests. Hindu Priests and multitude of Hindu Holymen must take it upon themselves to guide their followers to vote for a particular political party which is best suited to protect the lives and faith of Hindus. Various Hindu Shrines and Muths should publicly call for the boycott of anti-Hindu political parties. Hindu temples should issue political diktats to the faithful just like Churches and Mosques do.

2. Develop understanding –
There is dire need for Hindus to develop a firm understanding of the dangerous neighborhood they are living in. They need to understand the single biggest danger in front of them. They need to study the nature of the beast, including its weaknesses and strengths. It was sheer lack of understanding of its foe, on part of Prithviraj Chowhan that made him forgive Gauri battle after battle. But when Prithviraj Chowhan lost, Mohammad Gauri promptly executed him.

I don’t agree with following points:

1. Replace diatribe by dialogue -
If anything, Hindus are guilty of too much dialogue and too little action. As some famous person has said “Talk, but carry a big stick around”. Hindus/Indians have a habit of talking and forgetting the stick all together. As a result, even bit sized countries like Bangladesh and Nepal have started creating troubles for us.

2. Get rid of the persecution complex and paranoia –
It is good to remember why and how Hindus have been victims of the biggest holocaust in this world. I would say, even today there are too many Hindus who are woefully unaware of the brutalities caused to them in the past (communist historians have played their part here).

If Hindus are being ethnically cleansed with in their homeland, when do you think would be an appropriate time to develop paranoia?

3. Embrace inclusiveness –
Hindus have embraced people of all religions. No one who is least bit serious can charge Hindus with not being inclusive. Problem is not with Hindu religion, but with other religions.

Kashmir was once, solely a Hindu region. Hindus, in keeping with their tradition of inclusiveness, started welcoming Sufis. Sufis developed their followers and converted them to Islam. Hindus lived peacefully with them for centuries. Trouble started when Muslims became majority and Hindus because minority.

Now the same Hindus, who displayed their inclusiveness by welcoming Sufis and by letting Islam flourish among them, have been ethnically cleansed from their original homeland.

If we add armed invasions and forcible conversions, pretty much same events took place in present day Pakistan and Bangladesh.

BOUNCINGBALL
"Aap ko khuni, Sri Devendra Patel Babu, George W. Bush Sahib neh banaya."

What a bounce? but it's a no ball. Can u pl explain the linkage, dear bouncing boobs.

>>Since the age of seven, I have, J, raised important questions and gone out in search of appropriate answers....

Note the search started at the age of 7 ..And the search for those answers still continues.. example of a profound question for which precision guided sob is still to find an answer - how to take a leak without making a mess of his trousers or his shoes.

All the best in your quest for knowledge.

>>That is why, I am embraced in the Bos-Wash area, among others,

was it a typo ? did you mean to say embarassed?

Vinod,

>> Its you people who revere the terrorists as warriors of god ,saviors of Islam and what not.

This is what you learn in your shakhas, - lying and maligning people.

Vinod,

>> History has records that genocides and massacres had some reasons behind it ...

Silly post!

Vinod,

>> That gruesome incident is condemnable.

If you have to bring up the terrorists, your condemnation of the "gruesome incident" is not sincere.

So near and yet so far, Mr. Ganesan. Sixty miles seems like infinity when the mind refuses to open.

There is a common Indian trait here, Mr. Ganesan, and that is one of hiding behind false names and/or locations as if not to tell your loved ones that you are a closet Sangh Parivar or worse.

You will see that in my case, I only stopped the use of Joseph or of Karachi after some members began to adopt this name or location and write things in my name.

For once you have honest with yourself and the World.

Perish the thought. You are no Musuem piece. You are just some one who belies his education.

It is fine by me. Not meeting me is your call.

I am no Doctor nor am I measurer of rudeness. I am just sociable. I like to dialogue and meet.

"The sad part is you do not say where you live in New Jersey. "

Sometimes my weakness shows up and I try to remove sadness of others. So I will let this secret out. I stay in West Chester, PA.

"This has whetted my appetite to meet you and to see, first hand, what such human beings look and talk like."

What do you think I am? Some kind of a museum piece that you can come and watch? I have no interest in meeting you.

"Two, do not think you are cute or funny. You are sick."

I did not know you were a doctor. I am sick and you want to meet me. But I dont want to meet you. I will go to some other doctor.

PS: let me know if I passed the Indian rudeness test this time also.

I am critical of radical Islam, whatever thatmay mean, Mr. Kumar. However, I believe it as a result of Neo-Con over-kill.

Islam was radicalised or rather a small fraction of it by Evagelical Christianity and "Bring It On".

I am a great believer in cause and effect, action and reaction and live and let live. All my observations fall within this ambit.

I advocate understand in dialogue, Mr. Kumar. I believe in oneness including the need for a Single World Currency.

You are the apogee in stinking sarcasm, Mr. Ganesan. My heart is human. Yours is too but it gets biased when it deals with non-Hindu, non-Indians. This has whetted my appetite to meet you and to see, first hand, what such human beings look and talk like.

The sad part is you do not say where you live in New Jersey. Based on my statistical inclination, it could well be one of the following.

Iselin and Edison have very large Indian populations- the entire downtown area between them is nothing but Indian shops.
or
Jersey City, Parsippany, Cherry Hill and especially Iselin.
or
West Windsor and Plainsboro also have a lot of Indians
or
South Brunswick - Indians as well as good school district
or
Parsippany
------
I am opting for Iselin or Parsipany. Now these two townships are about 31 miles apart by road with East Orange about equidistant from the two.

Local business results for Indian Vegetarian Restaurant near East Orange, NJ A. Startime Vegetarian Restaurant - maps.google.com - (973) 351-9909 - more

B. Madras Mahal Vegetarian Indian Restaurant - www.madrasmahal.com - (212) 684-4010 - 53 reviews

C. Vatan Indian Restaurant - www.vatanny.com - (212) 689-5666 - 91 reviews

D. Chennai Garden Inc - nymag.com - (212) 689-1999 - 66 reviews

E. Pongal Inc - www.pongalnyc.com - (212) 696-9458 - 46 reviews

F. Mint - mintny.com - (212) 644-8888 - 109 reviews

G. Dimple Indian Vegetarian - www.dimplenyc.com - (212) 239-0666 - 11 reviews

H. Madras Cafe - madrascafenyc.com - (212) 254-8002 - 33 reviews

I. Sapthagiri Taste of India - www.sapthagiri.biz - (201) 533-8400 - 6 reviews

J. Ayurveda Cafe - www.theayurvedacafe.com - (212) 932-2400 - 16 reviews
------
One, where would you like us to meet and when. Two, do not think you are cute or funny. You are sick.

Joseph/Bounchingball,

Sorry man, if I have kept you waiting. Guilty of multitasking! I have read your reply. I will reply to it tomorrow. I agree & disagree with some of your points. I will write it in detail, tomorrow.

>> A Hindu got burnt alive in london last week for dating a muslim girl.

We do not have to look far for such inhumanities:


http://timesofindia.ind...articleshow/3146883.cms

A Hindu got burnt alive in londond last week for dating a muslim girl.. Thank god it;s a news in shariah republics these are not even worthy of news.. It's a routine event.

The most vile holocaust in history of mankind happened in indian subcontinent at hands of Islamic invaders.> even the rough account says minimum 80 million were butchered.. Incidents like a SIkh gurur being butchered right in the court of aurangjeb has become a folklore . but these are not even the tip of the iceberg.

Killing someone just for the sake of their religious belief was sthg new introduced to India by islamists. otherwise we have had a ruler like Ashokaa openely converting to buddhims and nobody cared such was the tolerance.. We have had tradition of debate between shankaracharya and mandan mishra .
Acrhaelogical excavation have found buddhist centre thriving alng side hindu temples in Madhya pradesh region..

Islam came wiped out buddhism because they were too tolerant even today they blow up bamyan buddha without any repercussion from buddhism.. OTOH Hindus..
These mullahs are now preaching tolerance when it;s well known prophet himself used to kill whole tribe like banu quraiiza if they didn;t fall in line wiht his whims...

Audacity of some people to say hindusim sud adopt anything from such blood-thirsty religion takes the cake..\

>> The most vile holocaust in history of mankind happened in indian subcontinent.

That shakha brainwashing again!

"Bouncingball,

>> I am, therefore, intrigued as to why I am not liked in this Forum"

Not your fault. The arrogant bastard Indians are dumb and stupid enough not to realise your brilliance and your heart of gold.

Paradoxical though it may seem, J, Hinduism will flourish and reach that critical mass that will ensure World balance and harmony if it opens up instead of shutting itself in in India.

With a 20% Minority that has grown more rapidly than the Majority in the last Century, it is an impossible task to make India exclusively Hindu. Hence the Agenda of the Nationalist Hindus will remain unattainable.

At the same time, India can never become truly Secular given its demographic profile.

In the circumstance, India should declare that it is a Hindu state that welcomes and tolerates all faiths. Anything else will be hypocrisy.

As to why invaders were able to enter India, beginning from Alexander, with little resistance. This is because India was never a unified whole. Even in 1947, it consisted of some 800 states and principalities. The battles were against rulers whom the invaders first met. Once that ruler was defeated, the rest was easy sailing.

In the present day and age, India will not face externat threats. All threats will be internal. Hinduism can be preserved and Hindus made safer if they embrace peace.

Bouncingball,

>> I am, therefore, intrigued as to why I am not liked in this Forum

I have my disagreements with you. You have not shown the appreciation of Indian secular humanist constitution as much as it deserved, which will make all the difference in the long run (instead of just comparing the progress/poverty of India vs pakistan in the short span on 60 years since independence which is superficial/temporary comparison). I also think that you have a blind spot where you are completely uncritical of radical islam. You justify all the flaws by merely pointing out a similar attitude/action by others in some age at some level (much like our sangh parivar activists) - as if that is good enough reason to unleash all negative things done by people in the darkest chapters of history by the vilest of men, now on a larger scale. You also do not recognize the fact that some of these issues may be directly/strongly liked to the orthodox interpretation of religion itself which makes it more dangerous and difficult to reform (which calls for strong theological refutation). I have not seen you address these things. If there is any balance or principles on which you are basing your values and posts, I have not seen it (on these points at least).

J,

>> I am really getting bored ...

I was bored long ago, but played along to see how far you would go!

Forsake altruism for realism

Replace diatribe by dialogue

Develop understanding

Get rid of the persecution complex and paranoia.

Embrace inclusiveness.

J
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>> must be some perplexing reason why Hindu behave in this strange manner. It needs to be identified and remedied at the earliest
>> "secular" anti-India/anti-Hindu media mad dogs must be shot too

First and foremost, it needs to be understood that hinduism in a complex collection of diverse groups with diverse beliefs, castes, outcastes, tribals, people who never entered temples, people who never worshipped Ram, people who do not accept brahminical priesthood etc (only when you count all these people, you get 80% population as hindu). This reality cannot be wished away.

The diversity needs to be embraced and not despised. The different groups' independent/strong assertion to positions of influence/power (like say dalits/OBCs) needs to be allowed, encouraged and not attempted to be surpressed (or worse still, should not be labelled anti-hindus). The term anti-hindu needs to be dropped from vocabulary - anyone who wishes to be a hindu needs to be called a hindu and not an anti-hindu (even if the person does not believe in Ram or does not believe in Brahminism or believes in secular humanism or wants to assert political power as a dalit/OBC etc). This is the path the Congress party has followed and has been successful to a large extent, but still failed to grapple with the strong politcal assertion of dalits/OBCs. The BJP approach of forcing reverence to Ram/brahminism on everyone or creating an artifical enemy called muslim will have very short term effects and counter-productive. The dalit/tribal may agree to be a foot soldier to attack muslims once or twice, but not again and again (the enmity is artificially created - besides being against hindu philosophy).

J,

>> mental age of 10.

You would have that, if you had twice the I.Q. that you now have!

Why rule out conversions to Hinduism, J?.

Why are people in this Forum shying away from Conversion, J. I have placed material here that says that Hinduism grew through conversions.

Hindus should convert people to Hinduism, J.

J,

>> I have got all kinds of colors for all kinds of people.

A chameleon!

Joseph/Bouncingball,

If Hindus convert, there would be no Hindu to safeguard, isn't it? I was asking what is flaw/flaws (you have point out one, though debatable) and what is the remedy. If we rule out conversions, what would your other suggestions be?

Vinod,

>> When we come to the difference between the educated Muslims and the educated Hindus my experience tells me that there is the difference of a day and a night.

It is true that many educated Hindus are venomous communalists, but so are many educated Muslims.

>> I have stood on the side of the truth and not with the individual.

Not true. You just supported J in his hate mail, as you have done with the hate mails of Bagai and Bodepudi.

>> Hindu history is stained with the blood.

It was stained with blood even before the Muslims came. Whitewashing Hindu history and demonizing the Muslims has become a stock in trade of the sangh through its publications and through its shakhas.