File Photo
An illustration from the manuscript of the literary masterpiece of Ibn Muqaffa, Kalila wa Dimna, probably done in Herat for the Timurid prince Baysunghur in 1430
Opinion
India And The Golden Age Of Islam
Take what the Europeans came to call the "Arab numerals" which replaced the cumbersome Roman numerals. The Arabs call them Hindsa (Indian numerals) giving credit where it is due...
History and legend both describe the first 400 years of Abbasid rule, roughly from 750 to 1150,  as the Golden Age of Islam. Great military victories, booming international trade and agriculture leading to all round prosperity and luxurious living of the era gave rise to fables like Thousand and One Nights and prompted historian Khatib to claim that "Baghdad has become a city with no peer throughout the world". But the real distinction of  the city which earned universal admiration was unrivalled intellectual activity in all fields: science, mathematics, technology, veterinary sciences, agronomy and literature including biography, history, and linguistics.

The royal patronage and munificence shown by the caliphs attracted academics and scientists of diverse nationalities, who pursued their studies in an environment free from religious prejudice and orthodoxy.  It is interesting to recall that the Royal Physician Bakhtishu, a Christian, when invited by Caliph Mansoor to embrace Islam, retorted that he preferred the company of his fathers, be they in heaven or hell. Thereafter Mansoor never broached the subject with him and the Bakhtishu family provided leading physicians and medical teachers for seven generations.

The general perception about the scientific achievements of this period is that the Arabs undertook translation of Greek texts that had not been accessible to academics after the Byzantine emperor Justinian had closed down the 900 year old Academy of Plato in 529 and unleashed persecution against the pagan (i.e. the non-Christian) scientists. This knowledge later travelled to Europe via Arabs, and Europe came to claim it to be its own heritage.

While history shows that translation of Greek works was taken up in the 9th century,  the Arabs had embarked upon the translation of Sanskrit texts from India much before that. According to Tabqatul Umam a delegation from India came to Baghdad in 771, some 250 years after the death of Aryabhatta. This delegation consisted of an astronomer called Kanaka, who carried with him a small library including a book titled Surya Siddhanta and works of Aryabhata and Brahamgupta.

According to the Arab historian al-Qifti, the caliph was amazed by the brilliance of these Indian texts. On his order, these works were translated into Arabic by Al-Fazari, who subsequently emerged as the first Arab astronomer of great repute. Over a period of time, this Arabic version gained fame under the title of Sindhind and became popular as a text of mathematics and astronomy all over the Muslim world including Spain from where it travelled to Europe and was translated into Latin in 1126. This work revolutionized the study of mathematics and sciences and replaced the cumbersome Roman numerals. It is interesting to note that while Europe has christened the new system as Arab numerals, the Arabs call them Hindsa (Indian numerals) giving credit where it is due.

The other important area influenced by Indian ethos and morality was adab, that is the embodiment of sensible counsel in the form of fables. The literary masterpiece of Ibn Muqaffa, Kalila wa Dimna, is based on the stories of Panchtantra and Mahabharata and is considered a classic of early Arabic prose. But it is not just that. We also find mention of translations of Varahmihir, Brihat Jatak, Krishna Avtar and Vishnu Puran in Kitabul Hind by Al Biruni, the brilliant historian who came with Mahmud of Ghazni's armies and stayed behind to live with Brahmins, learn Sanskrit and write his extraordinary work on India.

The long list of Sanskrit manuscripts that were translated into Arabic and catalogued in detail by Arab historian Ibn Nadeem in his classic Fehrist (Bibliographical index) is an of acknowledgement of the contribution that Indian sciences made in building the Golden Age of Islam.

 
Daily Mail
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Jun 24, 2008 12:00 AM
74
hard facts:

What are you trying to prove by the fact
that some Hindu thug might have looted Hindu temples?

Does that justify Muslims destroying Hindu temples?

Does the fact that some Jews killed other Jews justify Hitker's wiping Jews out?

If you beat your father, is anyone else justified in doing so?
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jun 23, 2008 12:00 AM
73
Bagai,

>> europeans are the hosts in their countries.

Noah Feldman's article in the New York Times, which I assume you are referring to, is a lot more insightful and empathic than you are capable of ever being.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 23, 2008 12:00 AM
72
Vinod,

>> You mean Liberalism-Faruki style.

If that is your reaction to Noah Feldman's excellent article in the New York Times, all I can do is to pity you.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 23, 2008 12:00 AM
71
faruki

europeans are the hosts in their countries.
maybe they do not meet your standards of hospitality, and liberalism, but ultimately they have the right to decide, as to who enters their country.

you would never demand of fellow muslims in say
saudi arabia, iran what you demand of europeans, christians and hindus in their countries.

and ofcource no nonmuslim would have any expectations from a muslim country. one would be
grateful to enter, have a safe stay, and leave unharmed.

muslim immigrants to europe should do one of two things.

aaa. adapt to the culture of the new countries,
and not build madrassahs, mosques and other
islamic centres. and not complain for each and everything and make preposerous demands.

bbb alternatively if the dont like the foreign countries, then they should return home.

europeans have a right to decide who they like or dont like. there is no god given law that western countries have a duty to accept muslim
or any other type of immigrants.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Denmark
Jun 22, 2008 12:00 AM
70
Totally one-sided and a deeply flawed narrative
Shivaji
New York, United States
Jun 21, 2008 12:00 AM
69
Seshadri,

>> I was talking of individual calamities happening as punishment for wilful misinfo, not weather variations or biblical prophesies.

They are both old wives' tales.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 21, 2008 12:00 AM
68
Awake at 4?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jun 21, 2008 12:00 AM
67
Did I mention the possible impeachment of President Pervez Musharaf once?. Was I ridiculed then?.

Watch this space for more.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jun 21, 2008 12:00 AM
66
Are you in the Bos-Wash of the U. S. A, Mr. V. Seshadari?. If so, can we meet?.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jun 20, 2008 12:00 AM
65
Hey guys, I dont see Khujli chacha's posts but see u answering to him...thats unfair!!

my whole purpose of coming to this forum is to listen to this one-man army of stand up comedian.

Why cant i see his posts?? is VM blocking him? i am cancelling my subscription to Outlook if he is doing so.

Khujli chacha!! tum kahan ho??
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Jun 20, 2008 12:00 AM
64
Dorje ... "Therefore, this system is anout to crumble from within just as every feudal sysatem crumbled from within with the men and women joining the labor force."

I hope you are right. I do feel hopeful with the new processes unleashed of democracy, economic liberalization, industrialization and urbanization not to mention the "youth" as the majority in our population. But I am only cautiously optimistic since caste is unique amongst the various feudal/discriminatory systems. It's deep roots supported by strong institutions of Karma and Marriage. As much as the current reservation policies aren't the best, I am ambivalent and generally supportive until those who oppose provide alternatives beyond words, because even the current policies will create churn and discomfort to weaken the corrosive aspects of our history.

Dorje again writes .... "1 The caste system can not be equated with the totality of the Hindu culture and heritage. It was a profound and a prolonged perversion."

Sure it is not the "totality" but as you mention it is "profound and prolonged perversion" and hence needs to be always up there for any hope of change.

BTW, in your case, doesn't it not also make sense to expect others to have the same dichotomy of "not the totality but a profound and prolonged perversion" that you want for yourself. Two defeated/wounded civilizations bickering and looking for onemanupship, reminds me of the monkey (west) and two cats (hindu, muslim) story - the outcome is known.
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Jun 20, 2008 12:00 AM
63
>> handed out a death sentence under the country's controversial blasphemy law to a man accused of desecrating the Holy Quran. What is particularly disturbing is that the judge delivered his ruling in a highly charged atmosphere, with banners and posters displayed everywhere and protesters seeking death...
>> factory worker accused of uttering blasphemous words was killed by fellow workers


And this is what Mr Joseph would consider as "taking religion seriously" ?
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Jun 20, 2008 12:00 AM
62
The Golden Age of Islam in Pakistan which was 60 yrs back was India : "Blasphemy sentence :

A district and sessions court in Sialkot has handed out a death sentence under the country's controversial blasphemy law to a man accused of desecrating the Holy Quran. What is particularly disturbing is that the judge delivered his ruling in a highly charged atmosphere, with banners and posters displayed everywhere and protesters seeking death gathering at the court where a high level of security had to be put in place to protect the accused man. This pattern is one that has been seen repeatedly over the last few years. Each accusation of blasphemy is followed frequently by a frenzy often built up by extremist groups, which builds pressure on both police and judges. Certainly, few district court judges are willing in the face of such intimidation to rule in favour of any person accused of blasphemy. The whole situation is akin to the Salem witchtrials which took place in the late 17th century in the US. It is unfortunate we have not moved beyond this period in terms of development.

The blasphemy law, which is included in several sections of Pakistan's penal code was widely used and made harsher during the 1980s, under the regime of the late General Ziaul Haq. Over the last decade, its misuse has been widespread, most often as a means to settle petty scores. Muslims and non-Muslims have both suffered as a result. Dozens remain jailed, some have been killed in prison and others have found that even after acquittal by higher courts they are unable to live safely in the country. More dangerous still is the mindset created by this law with mob killings becoming a reality. Only months ago, a Hindu factory worker accused of uttering blasphemous words was killed by fellow workers, allegedly watched by police who failed to act.

Efforts made to introduce safeguards within the blasphemy law, including a 2004 alteration requiring investigation by a senior police official of all such cases have proved largely ineffective. The misuse of the law has been criticized by international and local rights organizations. It was time the blasphemy law was amended to offer adequate safeguards to victims and steps put in place to prevent the blatant misuse of the provision that takes places today and which only serves to further increase the prevailing culture of intolerance and bigotry." EDIT THe NEWS Pakistan Jang Group.
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Jun 20, 2008 12:00 AM
61
Vinod,

>> you explore every oppurtunity to play down the Sangha Parivar.

You have every right to play up the Parivar if that's what you want to do.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 20, 2008 12:00 AM
60
Doeje/Bodepudi,

>> Your language reflects what Wafa was talking of Islam.

On the contrary, you are the one who is constantly preaching hate, berating the religion of India's largest minority, and prescribing fascistic schemes to avenge the past or to reshape India according to your sick dreams. I just upbraid or ridicule you for your outrageous posts.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 20, 2008 12:00 AM
59
Dorje/Bodepudi,

>> Others may hate when provoked...

Yes, but your hate is perpetual and pathological. It spurts out in this forum several times in a day. It is loathsome.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 20, 2008 12:00 AM
58
Seshadri,

>> be careful for tornadoes in case you drive to the midwest USA.

We have quite a few television evangelists here telling us all the time that all the natural disasters are punishments for our sins. By the same token all the bright sunny days without earthquakes must be rewards for our being good. Right?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 20, 2008 12:00 AM
57
"Unlike O'Reilly, you can speak the truth sometimes."

That is an insult. I dont speak the truth anytime at all. All I do is speak gibberish arrogantly. If sometimes the gibberish approaches truth, it is by mistake.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Jun 20, 2008 12:00 AM
56
"Is this why, Indians are such rude and crude writers?."

Thats not the only reason but yes, that is one factor that makes us arrogant and stupid.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Jun 20, 2008 12:00 AM
55
Ganesan,

>> We will be arrogant and stupid all our lives.

I shall say this in your favor. Unlike O'Reilly, you can speak the truth sometimes.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 20, 2008 12:00 AM
54
Ganesan,

>> This is as intelligent as you ever get.

This coming from a ditto-head!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 20, 2008 12:00 AM
53
"When will the arrogant learn to bite less than they can chew, Mr. Ganesan?."

If they learn that, they wont be arrogant anymore. So we wont learn. We will be arrogant and stupid all our lives. Now shut up.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Jun 20, 2008 12:00 AM
52
"Seems you have learned a lot from Bill O'Reilly!"

This is as intelligent as you ever get. And you call others stupid.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Jun 20, 2008 12:00 AM
51
Ganesan,

>> Faruki's response to this was like Obama's response( to any issue) without a teleprompter. Totally meaningless and out of scope.

Seems you have learned a lot from Bill O'Reilly!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 20, 2008 12:00 AM
50
KhushiRam/Minu,

>> This from a BJP CM who recently faced the burnt of the Islamists.

Has the case of Jaipur blasts been solved? I know that a few Muslims were arrested, and at least one arrested Muslim was released, and there was an e-mail from a group which had a Muslim sounding name. But have they tied all the loose ends?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 20, 2008 12:00 AM
49
Dorje/Bodepudi,

>> Saudi funding for "Hate" .... schools.

You should be eligible for Saudi funding to carry on your hate prachar.

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
48
"they might be open in a sense but they make sure that no harm is done to christianity."

Faruki's response to this was like Obama's response( to any issue) without a teleprompter. Totally meaningless and out of scope. The statement mentioned above is pretty accurate.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
47
Dorje/Bodepudi,

>> "According to a Hindu blog, a sacred Hindu site...."

Naturally your favorite site! Let us count the ways in which you can poison the atmosphere in a secular forum!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
46
Namo,

>> america is a christian rightwing country. they might be open in a sense but they make sure that no harm is done to christianity.

You exaggerate. There is always a flux in a multi-ethnic and multi-racial society, and sometimes one group may seem to be gaining at the cost of another. But if one takes a longer perspective, the movement is towards inclusiveness and equality. Human nature tends towards group partisanship, but there is an American ethos which upholds inclusiveness and acceptance, so that the partisanship is always held in check.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
45
Namo/Nandu,

>> what about your other two IDs, GREEN LEAF & HARD FACTS?

As usual, you are wrong again.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
44
Namo,

>> even your pope "warned" his followers of the "dangers" of secularism. the muslims do not believe in secularism.

Experience in the U.S. and Turkey suggests that both the Roman Catholics and the Muslims can learn to live with separation of state from religion. More and more people and countries need to learn the same lesson. That way lies the future.

>> hindusim is the only secular religion in the world.

If Hindus believe in separation of state from religion, they should not unlearn that lesson, otherwise we shall be moving backwards.

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
43
Namo,

>> have you read the posts of green leaf & hard facts?.

True, but they came after years of prolific anti-Muslim hate mails from Dorje/Bodepudi and Thomasmid/Bagai. You yourself have been one of the mudslingers, although thankfully you have been better behaved lately.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
42
Many many thanks to Vasundera Raje .She has included Christians in 14% reservatins earmarked for econmically weaker persons. It is timely move.As poor Christians too needed some affirmative programmes.

Muslims too have been included in 14 % Reservations.This from a BJP CM who recently faced the burnt of the Islamists.
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
41
>>but after a few stories I discovered the pattern .... the listener of the story was considered dumb, the stories were made cheessy, and in all stories finally it was about getting out of trouble by essentially bribing (fattening) a brahmin..

Sweeping generalisations with no underlying facts. Story telling was a fact of life in historic times....Large volumes of works and epics have been passed down from generation to generation through stories and vocally, all over the world.

Unless you can be specific about the stories which suggest bribing of brahmin and the context behind them , this looks like another of romila thapars essay and effort in self flagellation , to score brownie points with the "liberal " crowd.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
40
Arvind .... I guess we disagree as for me it is the primary (by far) reason for a "weak" society which could be conquered by those in ascendancy at different time. A large population inhumanly treated for long, with no escape possible, as it was deeply embedded with religious sanction creating a system where both the discriminated and the discriminating accepted it as natural with no need for revolt or remorse. The various reform movements never really gaining steam to sustain. You individually could escape your present caste in your next birth but there would be someone else born to replace you anyways. So the "net" wouldn't change.

Knowledge evolution kept in tight control by birth, eventually becoming moribund, repititive and many times just half explored. Knowledge transmission done by "dumbing it" down to silliness and rituals only. I still recall sitting at home in a reading of the Puranas (don't recollect which ones) but after a few stories I discovered the pattern .... the listener of the story was considered dumb, the stories were made cheessy, and in all stories finally it was about getting out of trouble by essentially bribing (fattening) a brahmin. I was told it was a way to convey the "high vedas" to the masses .... treat people as unthinking dumb masses and you get it - a self fulfilling prophecy.

I still feel the insidious nature of caste and its corrosive impact on us is still not well understood by us.

Dealing with the enemy within is hardwork. The enemy outside is easier.
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
39
"So I am sorry but I don't agree that blaming the caste system is overly simplistic. Nor do I buy the argument that our problem was "openness, diversity .....". Look the US in modern times is a great example of how "openness, diversity, etc." has been a key reason of its preeminence for a while now and for the foreeable future."

Again I'm not saying caste system didn't exist or that there were problems because of it. It might have played a part but I don't think THAT WAS THE PRIMARY REASON in my humble opinion, that's all.

And for all the talk of US being the epitome of pluralism blah blah. Well if that were the case why were the Indians decimated when the Europeans landed here? Why were the blacks oppressed for more than 200 years? Even now there are significant differences and issues between blacks and Hispanics and whites especailly working-class blue collar Americans. Just listen to Pat Buchanan speak.

This theory of diversity in the US is pretty exaggerated in my point of view. Sure if you go to a big city you probably find immigrants from almost all countries. But if you discount the Hispanics (many are either illegal or they are 2nd gen or more) and African Americans how many are first gen American citizens? I don't have the exact numbers but I'd suspect the number to be pretty small (much less than Hispanics or Afro Americans, you already see problems between whites and these communities). US has a unique culture to which other people more easily assimilate rather than the US culture (mainly Anglo-Saxon) itself assimilating other cultures. For instance, more probability of a Muslim from Arabia starting drinking wine and eating ham than a local Arab community imposing Prohibition on wine. Now nothing wrong with drinking wine or eating ham but you have to admit that the person has changed some of its habits to be more in line with "US culture".
ARVIND
ROCHESTER, United States
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
38
Arvind .... "Can anyone name any place in the Earth that was more diverse and open than the Indian subcontinent in the Middle Ages?"

No - is the simple answer. True that the Indian subcontinent developed a system of handling "diversity" pre-modern times which was unique (and possibly enlightened for its time) as most other cultures of those times except possibly tribal ones just decimated the "other" to oblivion or completely subjucated them .... either way killed diversity.

Caste was the key construct to handle this diversity. One of the side affects of "caste" in managing diversity, was eventually as a whole we got "mediocrity and longevity" over "excellence". So even if it was an "advanced" solution for the time it was envisioned, inherent in it were the pitfalls whose consequences we face even today. Also, for a large section of population who were so badly treated for so long (what we call SC/ST today), was generation of inhuman treatement due to an accident of birth better than the decimation practiced by others to deal with diversity?

So I am sorry but I don't agree that blaming the caste system is overly simplistic. Nor do I buy the argument that our problem was "openness, diversity .....". Look the US in modern times is a great example of how "openness, diversity, etc." has been a key reason of its preeminence for a while now and for the foreeable future. So it was a problem with the solution we employed ... caste. Again, it might appear as an enlightened solution for its time but linking it to birth and sanctioning it via a core concept of Karma was what gave it "religious sanction" made it "natural, eternal and unchangeable" ... barriers to entry and exit so high that all we can keep recounting is the same handful of exceptions. The grip so powerful, that all past attempts at reform finally failed and interestingly "religions" that don't sanction it otherwise, are afflicted with it too on the subcontinental soil.
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
37
>> >> The BJP says that this secularism, affirmative action etc as good will of hindu community

>> yes it is.

A large number of people who call themsleves hindu support secularism, affirmative action, social justice etc. These values mean support for welfare/upliftment of all sections/races/communities etc and that everyone has a freedom of religion. The role of BJP/RSS in this is negative (while cunningly trying to take credit). That is what I am saying.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
36
Vinod,

>> most of the articles in OUTLOOK are blatantly anti hindu

Are the rioters/rapists/murderers in Gujarat riots to be considered anti-hindu or good hindus?
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
35
"Sena: Hindu suicide squads must target ‘mini-Paks’

The Sena has praised Hindu organisations involved in the blast, but has pointed out that instead of making such low intensity bombs, they should have made a better “Hindu” bomb, and their names would have been added to the list of revolutionaries. It stated that the bomb in Thane ultimately injured Hindus. It urged for “better bombs” that could be exploded in “mini-Pakistans” flourishing in India.

Claiming that there are many areas dominated by Islamic fundamentalists, where even the police fear to enter, the Sena stated that Hindutva organisations should learn lessons from Islamic terror organisations like Jaish, Al Qaeda and Hizbul. "


http://www.indianexpress.com/story/324620.html


SIDE EFFECTS OF GOLDEN AGE ?
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
34
Dorje/Bodepudi,

>> Hindus were never prepared for trhe unprecedented barbarism of the Islamic Sword and Fire.

There are 850 million Hindus in India today. Compare that with what happened to the natives of North and South America before you talk of unpredcedented barbarism. Your sole purpose is to spread hatred, and so lying and distorting seem to come easily to you.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
33
Ashok,

>> Having the right to live in these countries after begging for a refugee status...

Might be true of your friends, but does not apply to me.

>> One can talk, walk, dress and live the way one wants – something that’s impossible in Islamic countries.

I came from India. You have scored 0 out of 2!

>> their freedom turns into a plight when they see everyone working hard and enjoying harder.

The whole paragraph is full of nonsense. So is the whole post.

>> They feel frustrated, angry and disillusioned.

Lie after lie! You are just giving an exhibition of your stupidity. Or is it sour grapes?

>> they end up devoting 24 hours of their time to get away from their existence.

I am sure I am having a lot more fun than you can dream of. And look at you! What you do on the internet is to spew out hate messages! That is truly a pathetic existence. Your fantasized scenario for me is stupid beyond belief. Perhaps it is your way of dealing with your own miserable existence in Bangalore! Your continuous hate messages suggest that you cannot be a man at peace with yourself. In any case what was the bloody point of this exchange? It is so senseless.

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
32
Spread of Islam in India is considered by Arif Mohamad as the Golden age for Islam.But is the reverse true for India too ? If the answere is yes then what India gained by spread of Islam ? Needs elaboration.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
31
Thomas mid,

Lets hope the jail auhtorities in Gitmo make full use of the "medical" knowledge of the once resident secular mullah.

I am sure the Jihadis will enjoy getting psychological treatment from another equally demented jihadi.

Lets also pray that he is sucessful in converting gitmo into dar ul islam , where only believers remain.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
30
"It is a known fact that the Dalits - even the Shudras and tribals - never became part of any major religion with full spiritual equality. It is an elementary issue that the right to religion includes the right to priesthood, as it integrates a person fully into the religion."

How about Vyas who wrote Mahabharatha whose mother was actually daughter of a ferryman?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyas


How about Nayanar saints, Shiva devotees who ranged from kings to soldiers to Shudras?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayanars


How about inscriptions from the Shudra dynasties that proclaim being Shudra was a matter of pride?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shudra



So again plz dude stop with the disinformation and wasting Outlook's forum space unnecessarily. No one is gonna take you seriously. Anyways, this my last post as reply to your stupid posts.
ARVIND
ROCHESTER, United States
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
29
"It is an elementary issue that the right to religion includes the right to priesthood, as it integrates a person fully into the religion. "

How exactly did you reach this "elementary principle"? This is rank nonsense. Why shudras? Even some brahmins are not eligible to become priests.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
28
"According to The Rajatarangani (IV/112), Chandradip, a Buddhist ruler of Kashmir, was killed by Brahmins in 722 AD. His successor Tarapida was killed two years later. The newly anointed Brahma-Kshastra (Rajput) rulers usurped power in the kingdoms of Sind and Kota."

Oh puhlease, Hard Facts. You seem to concoct some odd tidbits and fabricate a story of Hindus killing Budhists. Sorry aint gonna work. These have been already discredited by a lot of scholars. Try reading Koenraad Elst, Sita Ram Goel and Arun Shourie for starters. And the veracity of Ramayana/Mahabaratha well suffice me to say this much that experts in astronomy have tried to deduce the star patterns for the period when they were believed to be written and (guez what?) it matches the star positions in the epics.

Anyway with regard to Hinduism the proof of pudding is in the eating. So if it was really intolerant as you say it was how were there stupas, jain temples and Sikh gurudwaras in India but no churches in Saudi Arabia? And why were there no Crusades between say Hinduism and Budhism? But there were multiple ones resulting in mass genocides between the two monotheistic religions of Islam and Christianity.

So Hard Facts dude, chill out and don't try to rewrite history. And next time please don't quote Romila Thapar as your source. That only diminishes your credibility, for many Indians (atleast those who post here) by now know her as a fraud.
ARVIND
ROCHESTER, United States
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
27
Dorje/Bodepudi,

>> Now you can write, patiently, a thosand plus page history of Islamic barbarism ...

In other words, join you and keep hate alive!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
26
"Such bigotry, intolerance and arrogance...

Exactly your characteristics!"

These are actually the characteristics of the arrogant Indians who are so stupid that they wont listen to Joseph. Dont blame Dorje alone. I also belong to the arrogant Indian group. But what to do? A leopard cannot change its spots. Arrogant Indians will remain arrogant.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 AM
25
Dorje/Bodepudi,

>> Such bigotry, intolerance and arrogance...

Exactly your characteristics!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
24
Dorje/Bodepudi,

>> Reveal all other IDs used wrt CAIR, Islamic "charities", HAMAS, etc etc etc.

Only a hate propagandist like yourself would need so many ID's.

Ghulam Y Faruki
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
23
Dorje/Bodepudi,

>> Anti-fascist ALLIES bombed Dresden and Berlin, etc during the WW2-but they were REACTING against fascism-using counter terror.

That's what I am doing against your fascist activity in this forum.

Ghulam Y Faruki
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
22
Dorje/Bodepudi,

>> Wafa succinctly describes the language of Islam as abusive, bigoted and deep-rooted in hatred for the "other".

So you must be a Muslim.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
21
Dorje/Bodepudi,

>> I read Wafa, an Ex Muslim, to find out who is a moderate.

That's why I call you stupid.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
20
Since I got a new browser installed on my computer, my ID of Ghulam Y Faruki has disappeared, and an old ID which I briefly used two years ago viz Anwar Patel has reappeared. Unless I can get my new browser to change back to my real name, I shall continue to post as Anwar Patel.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
19
>> offering blatant provocations, smearing Muslims and Islam, holding up the worst in Muslim community and comparing it with what is best in the Hindu community (which does not include you)

Two comments: 1) If you are complaining about a hostile criticism of Islam, it is not going to go away, especially in the internet age where the insulter of Islam cannot be identified and executed. Just as a Periyar or a Dawkins has a right to criticize hinduism/christianity, there will be those who present a hostile criticism of Islam. 2) What you described "comparing worst in Muslim community and comparing it with what is best in the Hindu community" is the trademark and political weapon of RSS/BJP. It is the Congress which has implemented affirmative action, developed leaders from different sections etc. The BJP says that this secularism, affirmative action etc as good will of hindu community (in which the BJP has only a negative role), and at the sametime criticizes the congress for that very tolerance/good-will extended to all sections of Indian society.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
18
Ashok,

>> dialogue becomes a slinging match when reasons and logic are rebutted by angry abuses and frustrated rejoinders.

You conviniently forgot that the problem starts with you and the other bigots in the forum offering blatant provocations, smearing Muslims and Islam, holding up the worst in Muslim community and comparing it with what is best in the Hindu community (which does not include you) and, to top it all, calling your gratuitous insults a "debate"!!! You then turn around and call Azeem's patient calls for reason and my sharper rejoinders "abuse"! You are appalled by the copy/paste jobs of GL and HF, but even you should know that the much worse hate propaganda of Dorje/Bodepudi and Thomasmid/Bagai is much more prolific and has been going on for much longer. I have a feeling that GL and HF would not be posting their copy/paste material if the sustained anti/Muslim hate rants mentioned before had not been sullying this forum. I know that my post will have no impact because you consider that insulting Muslims is your birthright, and you may even consider it to be just a factual presentation, a lie that many of you may have learned in your shakhas. Your indoctrination in hate will not be easy to mitigate.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
17
Dorje/Bodepudi,

>> What matters most are his leadership role of CAIR, a Hamas front

Apart from the fact that there is no such thing as a Hamas front, and I have no leadership role in CAIR, it must be reiterated that you are a crazed hate propagandist, and a pathological liar.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
16
Seshadri,

>> strengthens my perceptions that nabhi was ravan reborn.

What arrant stupidity!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
15
Dorje/Bodepudi,

>> The Myth of Mederate Islam

It must be morning in Chicago, so this slithery character has started his daily quota of hate spewing! If the idiot had any sense, he would only have to compare his bigotic self with the author of this article Arif Mohommed Khan to find out who is a moderate.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
14
>>Osama did not start anything, Mr. A. K. Ghai.

No . How can he ? after all he is a believer. On 9/11 , the twin towers of WTC just decided that they have been standing for a long time and decided to crumble and lie down.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
13
"It is interesting to recall that the Royal Physician Bakhtishu, a Christian, when invited by Caliph Mansoor to embrace Islam, retorted that he preferred the company of his fathers, be they in heaven or hell"

Isn't this the "hudbaya" strategy of Islam? When you are weak/minority you try to cope with other kafirs till you reach a threshold. Then the talwar comes out and a massive proselytization begins till all the other kafirs are either put out or become dhimmis.

"IMHO, the real question is "why did the Bharat/Indian/Hindu landmass become susceptible to foreign invasions". I tend to agree with the theory that links this state of weakness to the caste system (and a resultant heirarchical mindset like no other)."

Blaming it all on the caste system is overly simplistic. I'd say the main reasons were India's openness, diversity and pluralism with too much emphasis on local governance and local issues without adequate importance to national interest although some people like Kautilya tried to revive it. Can anyone name any place in the Earth that was more diverse and open than the Indian subcontinent in the Middle Ages? And of course India was "sone ki chidiya" with the extremely fertile Gangetic plains and so it "elicited" a lot of attacks unlike say Arabia or Gobi desert or even the mostly arid and mountainous China.
ARVIND
ROCHESTER, United States
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
12
Dorje .... let us assume as you write that the period except for Akbar to Shah Jahan was brutal. Who would you like to apologize for that? The examples you give are of modern times of modern nation states ... germany, japan, USA. The kingdoms who could apologize are long gone ... and replaced like us with a defeated/wounded civilization carved into nation-states by the same colonizers. Should it be Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Iran .... who? You might say the whole Muslim world .... is that practical and who specifically would represent this "whole" muslim world and qualify for giving the apology? You could say the "muslims in India" but again who specifically doing this would make you happy and forget the past given we are in the 21st century.

Supposing there is someone specifically that should apologize and they are not being nice about doing so. Isn't demanding it ... a weak victim mindset ... how can a weak, defeatist mindset result in change for a better future and one that avoids recurrence of the past?

IMHO, the real question is "why did the Bharat/Indian/Hindu landmass become susceptible to foreign invasions". I tend to agree with the theory that links this state of weakness to the caste system (and a resultant heirarchical mindset like no other). A 100% reservation system, resulted in an initial flowering and exploration of many ideas/subjects BUT the lack of merit in the system resulted finally in a moribund system - stagnation and mediocrity - the same ideas being peddled over and over again. So even political evolution or military evolution suffered and hence the kingdoms ready for takeover.

So for me it is about - can democracy, industralization, urbanization result in a dismantling of a system that has long eluded us (in spite of many reformers, including your favorite Buddha) and has been, IMHO, the achillees heel in the construct of "hindu" society? At least I can't see how anyone else's apology can help in this?
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
11
Till 9\11 happened the Wars were fought between two or among groups of Nations .These wars were called Indo-Pak Wars, Arab -Israel Wars,WW1 or WW2 etc.

Osmana changed it all on 9\11.Now the War is called the War of Religeons.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
10
Onw wonders what would have happened to Arif Mohd Khan if he was in Pakistan publishing such an article in press open to the public ...
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
9
I dont know how the outlook editors missedit.

If you look at the painting above the article.
You will see a Tiger/Lioness accompained by two Jackels killing an Ox.

And Ox is revered by Hindus. The painting is done in Afganistan.

This shows How muslims think about Hinduism, even in art.
ANBanerjee
Newcastle, United Kingdom
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
8
Namo ji – Green Leaf warns us…

Green-leach >> abusing other forumites under various avatars, but now it is the time to be paid in the same coin.

Now, we Indians are really scared….

What’ll happen…GL and all the musalmaan mongrels from NY could put together their consolidated half-evolved brains to come after us Hindus on this forum. This is going to cause quite a shake-up amongst the Koranistas – Mulaslmaan Nobel prizes will be declared….

All you Indians - start shaking in our boots – think about what so much Musalmaan brain-power could do on a forum.

Allah-o-suvar !!

Oh! By the way…
Greeen-leach opines>> It seems you are obsessed with the rear orifice….

Nope – people are not obsessed about you, Green Leaf
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
7
GL / GF >>It seems the black community there is taking good care of your rear orifice.

LOL. Another street mongrel with an unwashed brain. .

Looks like you are speaking from first hand experience in newyork , which has a huge population of african americans..( they are not blacks , you moron )

How was it Mian , compared to what you got from sheikhs during haj?
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
6
Dorje/Bodepudi,

>> Islamic Genocides in India.

The fact that you could make such a gracious and fair-minded article on "India and the Golden Age of Islam" by Arif Mohammed Khan an occasion for your despicable hate propaganda is evidence of your being a rat from the gutter, someone condemned to a slimy existence for ever and ever!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
5
Here you go a different view of Aurangzeb other than JNU , Romila Thapar et al




http://specials.rediff....ws/2008/jun/12slid1.htm

gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
4
During last year's Gandhara Week – part of the Destination Pakistan 2007 Programme – with the theme "Historical review of the world's ancient Buddhist civilization," Pakistan's then Tourism Minister said, "We welcome people from all over the world to see the place that our history originates from."

Wow if it's such a great heritage then why the heck did the ISI not prevent the Taliban from destroying the great Budha statues in Bamiyan? Or are you gonna say Taliban "acted on its own" and ISI was "helpless" when everyone the world over knows Taliban is a brainchild of ISI?

And Gandhara in Pakistan? But isn't gandhara modern day Kandahar? No? Anyways it looks like massive (but very bad) psy-ops to for Pak govt. to improve its "relations" with Sri Lanka to counter India (maybe use it as a base for jehadi ops against Southern states). Only thing is I don't think the Sri Lankan govt. would be stupid enough to fall for it.

Come on Joseph either you are a true believer in Islam or you are not. If you are, all others are kafirs and you don't care for their beliefs, for they must convert to Islam, otherwise you are an apostate. If you aren't, then why are you glorifying Islam and talking crap like the "march of Islam" etc.?
ARVIND
ROCHESTER, United States
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
3
A fair article. However if the author assumes any similarity of the Arabs under Abassid or Byzantines (these were pretty secular empires, in fact pagan, weren't they?) with Arabs under Islam especially the Wahabbi or Salafi strains then that's simply not true. And Al-Biruni notwithstanding, Ghazni was a looter and plunderer who ransacked Bharat so no reason to be proud of him. There are other nations in the world that will feel proud of looters, plunderers and terrorists but India won't.
ARVIND
ROCHESTER, United States
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
2
Dorje/Bodepudi,

>> Islamic Genocides in India.

Come hell or highwater, you have to continue your despicable hate campaign! All the appeals from Azeem have fallen on deaf ears. Your evil instincts are just too insatiable to respond to reason. You are just a vicious oaf!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 18, 2008 12:00 AM
1
or you can call that pilfering, or looting, your own choice... if you survived the onslaught, you had to go to Bagdad, thsi is pretty clear from history (as , later you had to go to Samarkand)
The list is long of Vaisnava, Saiva, Jain , Buddhist temples destroyed, of cities and centers of knowledge plundered, in India, the Silk Road and elsewhere...
This is a display of a great historical aloofness, and of a remarkable ignorance of India's pre-islamic achievements and of the fact that cross-cultural exchanges between Europe and Indian cultures (and commercial) exchanges largely predate Islam (as much as was the fantastic impact of Indian cultures on Eastern Asia)
See:
"The other important area influenced by Indian ethos and morality was "adab", that is the embodiment of sensible counsel in the form of fables."
And what about Aesopius and his fables? they largely predate the existence of Islam, and anybody can witness common themes with Sanskrit examples (there was exchange, in which way, so long after, sometimes it's difficult to say)
There were Greek kingdoms in Afghanistan (and Northern Pakistan), with kings having currency featuring Greek and Hindu Gods, and -ah yes- they were the first places were the Buddha was represented ...
Th eGreek King Milinda had discuusins with the Indian Buddhist Master Nagasena, they needed no intermediary
I don't remember any Golden Age of Islam being involved in that, but, later in the destruction of it, possibly,
For a few translations, a lot of detructions, a funny "acknowledgement of the contribution that Indian sciences made in building the Golden Age of Islam" , the great tolerance of the Caliphate was quite short lived, it seems, regarding Pagans (as Hindus) and tolerance towards Christians and Jews quickly diminished (the kingdoms of Southern Sapin being a differnt case, and far away from Bagdad)
And, contrary to what is asserted, some Arab writers are quite critical of Indian science as superstitious, whatever
By the way, the greatest extent of Indian litterature preserved in translation is in Tibetan, Chinese so on, not in Arabic
So to speak, that "Golden Age of Islam" , largely pales in front of the long-term achievements of Indian cultures and Greek then Roman cultures, sorry to be so bold.
These cultures are not mere "contributors", and their conributions were often not exactly, how to put that , voluntary ...

sagar
Paris, France
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