Mid-flight: Hanuman more than Rama is the centre of Thai attention; no celibate here, he's a ladies' man
Excerpts
The Lord Takes Many Forms
Even as an unlikely debate rages around the Ram Setu, right-wing student activists in a pocket of Delhi university took exception to a celebrated essay by an eminent scholar...
Even as an unlikely debate rages around the Ram Setu--whether it was built by man, nature or divinity--in a pocket of the Delhi University, right-wing student activists have taken exception to this essay by the celebrated scholar A.K. Ramanujan, on the many Ramayanas living across languages and narrative genres, each different but no less legitimate than Valmiki's epic.
 
 
Some shadow of a relational structure claims the name of ramayana for all these tellings, but one is not necessarily all that like another.
 
 
Excerpts from the
The Collected Essays of A.K. Ramanujan (OUP, 1999; copyright: Molly Daniels Ramanujan).
How many Ramayanas? Three hundred? Three thousand? At the end of some Ramayanas, a question is sometimes asked: How many Ramayanas have there been? And there are stories that answer the question. Here is one.

One day when Rama was sitting on his throne, his ring fell off. When it touched the earth, it made a hole in the ground and disappeared into it. It was gone. His trusty henchman, Hanuman, was at his feet. Rama said to Hanuman, "Look, my ring is lost. Find it for me."

Now Hanuman can enter any hole, no matter how tiny. He had the power to become the smallest of the small and larger than the largest thing. So he took on a tiny form and went down the hole.

He went and went and went and suddenly fell into the netherworld. There were women down there. "Look, a tiny monkey! It's fallen from above!" Then they caught him and placed him on a platter (thali). The King of Spirits (bhut), who lives in the netherworld, likes to eat animals. So Hanuman was sent to him as part of his dinner, along with his vegetables. Hanuman sat on the platter, wondering what to do.

While this was going on in the netherworld, Rama sat on his throne on the earth above. The sage Vasistha and the god Brahma came to see him. They said to Rama, "Your work in the world of human beings is over. Your incarnations as Rama must now be given up. Leave this body, come up, and rejoin the gods." So Rama summoned all his followers and arranged for the coronation of his twin sons, Lava and Kusa. Then he went to the river Sarayu and disappeared in the flowing waters.

All this while, Hanuman was in the netherworld. When he was finally taken to the King of Spirits, he asked Hanuman, "Why have you come here?"

"Rama's ring fell into a hole. I've come to fetch it."

The king showed him a platter. On it were thousands of rings. They were all Rama's rings. The king said, "Pick out your Rama's ring and take it."

They were all exactly the same. "I don't know which one it is," said Hanuman, shaking his head.

The King of Spirits said, "There have been as many Ramas as there are rings on this platter. When you return to earth, you will not find Rama. This incarnation of Rama is now over. Whenever an incarnation of Rama is about to be over, his ring falls down. I collect them and keep them. Now you can go."

So Hanuman left.

***

The story is usually told to suggest that for every such Rama there is a Ramayana. The number of Ramayanas and the range of their influence in South and Southeast Asia over the past 2,500-odd years are astonishing. Just a list of languages in which the Rama story is found makes one gasp: Annamese, Balinese, Bengali, Cambodian, Chinese, Gujarati, Javanese, Kannada, Kashmiri, Khotanese, Laotian, Malaysian, Marathi, Oriya, Prakrit, Sanskrit, Santhali, Sinhalese, Tamil, Telugu, Thai, Tibetan—to say nothing of Western languages. Through the centuries, some of these languages have hosted more than one telling of the Rama story. Sanskrit alone contains some 25 or more tellings belonging to various narrative genres. If we add plays, dance-dramas and other performances, in both the classical and folk traditions, the number of Ramayanas grows even larger.

Obviously, these hundreds of tellings differ from one another. I have come to prefer the word tellings to the usual terms versions or variants because the latter terms can and typically do imply that there is an invariant, an original or Ur-text—usually Valmiki's Sanskrit Ramayana, the earliest and most prestigious of them all. But it is not always Valmiki's narrative that is carried from one language to another. We have a variety of Rama tales told by others, with radical differences among them.

The motif of Sita as Ravana's daughter, for example, occurs in one tradition of the Jain stories (for example, in the Vasudevahimdi) and in folk traditions of Kannada and Telugu, as well as in several Southeast Asian Ramayanas. In some, Ravana in his lusty youth molests a young woman, who vows vengeance and is reborn as his daughter to destroy him.

In the Thai Ramakirti (Rama's glory) or Ramakien (Rama's story), though many incidents look the same as they do in Valmiki, many things look different as well. For instance, as in the South Indian folk Ramayanas (as also in some Jain, Bengali and Kashmiri ones), the banishment of Sita is given a dramatic new rationale. The daughter of Surpanakha (the demoness whom Rama and Laksmana had mutilated years earlier in the forest) is waiting in the wings to take revenge on Sita, whom she views as finally responsible for her mother's disfigurement. She comes to Ayodhya, enters Sita's service as a maid, and induces her to draw a picture of Ravana. The drawing is rendered indelible (in some tellings, it comes to life in her bedroom) and forces itself on Rama's attention. In a jealous rage, he orders Sita killed. The compassionate Laksmana leaves her alive in the forest, though, and brings back the heart of a deer as witness to the execution.

The focus in the Ramakien is not on family values and spirituality. Thai audiences are more fond of Hanuman. Neither celibate nor devout, as in the Hindu Ramayana, here Hanuman is quite a ladies' man, who doesn't at all mind looking into the bedrooms of Lanka and doesn't consider seeing another man's sleeping wife as anything immoral, as Valmiki's does, or Kampan's Hanuman in his Tamil Ramayana.

Ravana too is different here. The Ramakirti admires Ravana's resourcefulness and learning; his abduction of Sita is seen as an act of love and is viewed with sympathy. The Thais are moved by Ravana's sacrifice of family, kingdom and life itself for the sake of a woman. Unlike Valmiki's characters, the Thai ones are a fallible, human mixture of good and evil. The fall of Ravana here makes one sad. It is not an occasion for unambiguous rejoicing, as it is in Valmiki.

***

Thus, not only do we have one story told by Valmiki in Sanskrit, we have a variety of Rama tales told by others, with radical differences among them. One point of difference is the intensity of focus on a major character. Valmiki focuses on Rama and his history in his opening sections; Vimalasuri's Jain Ramayana and the Thai epic focus not on Rama but on the genealogy and adventures of Ravana; the Kannada village telling focuses on Sita, her birth, her wedding, her trials. The Santhals, a tribe known for their extensive oral traditions, even conceive of Sita as unfaithful—to the shock and horror of any Hindu bred on Valmiki or Kampan, she is seduced both by Ravana and by Laksmana. In Southeast Asian texts, Hanuman is not the celibate devotee with a monkey face but a ladies' man who figures in many love episodes. In Kampan and Tulsi, Rama is a god; in the Jain texts, he is only an evolved Jain man who is in his last birth and so does not even kill Ravana. In the latter, Ravana is a noble hero fated by his karma to fall for Sita and bring death upon himself, while he is in other texts an overweening demon. Thus in the conception of every major character there are radical differences, so different indeed that one conception is quite abhorrent to those who hold another. Every one of these occurs in more than one text, in more than one textual community (Hindu, Jain or Buddhist), in more than one region.

Now, is there a common core to the Rama stories, except the most skeletal set of relations like that of Rama, his brother, his wife and the antagonist Ravana who abducts her? Are the stories bound together only by certain family resemblances, as Austrian philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein might say? Or is it like Aristotle's jack-knife? When the philosopher asked an old carpenter how long he had had his knife, the latter said, "Oh, I've had it for 30 years. I have changed the blade a few times and the handle a few times, but it's the same knife." Some shadow of a relational structure claims the name of Ramayana for all these tellings, but one is not necessarily all that like another.

We read the different tellings of the Ramayana for different reasons and with different aesthetic expectations. We read the scholarly modern English translation largely to gain a sense of the original Valmiki, and we consider it successful to the extent that it resembles the original. We read Kampan to read Kampan, and we judge him on his own terms—not by his resemblance to Valmiki but, if anything, by the extent that he differs from Valmiki. In the one, we rejoice in the similarity; in the other, we cherish and savour the differences.

Every author brings out a unique crystallisation, a new text with a unique texture and a fresh context. The great texts rework the small ones, for "lions are made of sheep," as French polymath Paul Valery said. And sheep are made of lions, too: a folk legend says that Hanuman wrote the original Ramayana on a mountain-top after the great war, and scattered the manuscript; it was many times larger than what we have now. Valmiki is said to have captured only a fragment of it. In this sense, no text is original, yet no telling is a mere retelling—and the story has no closure.

For the full essay, please click here.

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Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
70
My analogy with "Susan" is, MR. SREEJITH, a statement of fact. India was bereft. It may still be as it wants to have its cake and eat it to. Tibet is the litmus test of India's Sincerity to the U. S. A.'s Cause.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
69
Hey, PROUD HINDU, I did not say that. MR. VINOD did.

About natural allies, why were you to not when the Soviet Bloc was around. India is opportunistic too except that they have the Leftists to contend with.

Think before you ink.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
68
>> Since then bigots have multiplied, thanks to the parivar propaganda machine in India, and the mullahs let loose by Zia ul Haq in Pakistan.

Don't leave the seculars, and the Mullahs in India out of the equation.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
67
Joseph says

"US tones down praise for Musharraf By FOSTER KLUG, Associated Press Writer
Sat Mar 15, 8:41 AM ET"


Musharaf will be more worried about your toning down praise on him. I heard that you are going to impeach him. He will surely be a worried man.
sreejith
bangalore, india
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
66
Two hours ago, MR. SREEJITH, the numbers count indicated that the Alliance had structured up a Two-Third Majority.

We may have to wait and see, how things pan out.

With the nominee for Speaker being from Sindh in Dr (Ms) Fehmida Mirza and the nominee for Deputy Speaker likely to be from the Frontier, indications are that the Prime Minister will be from amomg Messers Jilanee, Mukhtar and Qureshi. Apparently, Makhdoom Amin Fahim may have paid the price for supping with the wrong people.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
65
The truth is, MR. VINOD, that India and Israel are more hostile than their neighbours. Would you like me to draw up a Balance Sheet since 1948?.

Actually, the common interest is based upon Hatred for Muslims.



Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
64
We just learned that one Sudharsan, who is based in Singapore, stole or helped steal tonnes of "Sensitive Material" for India.

Except for Baghwan, to a Hindu , nothing else is original.

Stop pretending that Indians are Angels.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
63
Seemingly, that spell of growth was an aberration, and India is moving back to the proverbial "Hindu Growth Rate", MR. VINOD.

With all that growth, India is marginally ahead of us and largely due to weakening U. S. A. Dollar.

You need to be in this "Analysis Businees" to distinguish these finer points.

The reality is that Sixty Per Cent of India's People get just Twenty point Nine Per Cent of the Share.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 16, 2008 12:00 AM
62
Thomamid/Bagai,

>> Do you think that a united India with about 500 million muslims have worked. You are a fraud.

Were all Indians who wanted Akhand Bharat frauds?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 16, 2008 12:00 AM
61
US tones down praise for Musharraf By FOSTER KLUG, Associated Press Writer
Sat Mar 15, 8:41 AM ET



Just months ago, the United States publicly championed Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf as an "indispensable" ally.

Now, officials barely mention the man the Bush administration once promoted as essential to holding together a nuclear-armed country deemed crucial to the U.S.-led fight against extremists in South Asia.

The new tone comes as the United States works to gain the favor of Pakistani opposition forces that won big in last month's parliamentary elections and as Musharraf's grip on power weakens. The newly empowered politicians are promising to reinstate fired judges who had questioned the legality of Musharraf's continuing in office.

The United States says it still intends to work with the former army chief, whom Pakistani lawmakers elected to a five-year presidential term in October. But the Bush administration appears to be shifting from making support for Musharraf the core of its Pakistan policy, which many U.S. lawmakers and Pakistani opposition leaders have long wanted.

Robert Hathaway, director of the Woodrow Wilson Center's Asia program, said Bush officials will not abandon Musharraf, "but clearly they have to, in rather dramatic fashion, alter what had been their previous practice of putting all of the American eggs in a Musharraf basket."

Pakistan's "new realities," Hathaway said, "dictate that they deal with Islamabad on a much broader basis if they wish to have any sort of influence in Pakistan."

In Feb. 18 parliamentary elections, the parties of slain opposition leader Benazir Bhutto and another former prime minister, Nawaz Sharif, finished first and second. The Pakistan Muslim League-Q, a party loyal to Musharraf, lost heavily.

The turnaround for Musharraf, who seized power in a 1999 coup, followed months of angry criticism at his crackdown late last year on the opposition, judiciary and media. In November, he declared a state of emergency and purged the Supreme Court before it could rule on the disputed legality of his presidential re-election.

Richard Boucher, assistant secretary of state for South Asia, said this week that the United States was reaching out to the opposition. "We have talked to all the parties, telling them all, `We will work with whoever emerges as the leadership,'" he said.

The U.S. does not seem as eager to promote Musharraf as it once was.

Deputy Secretary of State John Negroponte told lawmakers late last month that "Pakistan has been indispensable" to the fight against extremists, a marked change from his comments in November that Musharraf himself was the indispensable key to the effort.

This week, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack avoided taking a position on the possible restoration of the judges.

Asked if the United States was reaching out to politicians to express opposition to bringing back the judges, McCormack said, "No."

"We're not in the business of interpreting their laws or their constitution for them," he told reporters. "We don't have a vote in this, nor should we."

The United States does, however, have a stake in Pakistan's success as a moderate Islamic state. Washington has pumped about $10 billion in aid into Pakistan since Musharraf sided with the United States in the drive to topple the Taliban in neighboring Afghanistan and hunt down terrorists after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

Farhana Ali, an analyst at the Rand Corp. think tank, said there is a "hesitancy within the administration to completely let go of Musharraf."

She added that the Bush administration acknowledges "that we need Pakistan's support. Therefore, it's wise for us to accept whoever is going to take the throne."



Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 16, 2008 12:00 AM
60
I am a Pakistani. They are attacking Enemies and Intruders, MR. VINOD.

What about ULFAistan and Mumbai?.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 16, 2008 12:00 AM
59
ULFAistan, MR. VINOD.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 16, 2008 12:00 AM
58
The late President Sadam Hussain did not target the West, MR. VINOD. He did, of course, target Iran and Kuwait.

The West targetted him and his country for fear of losing hold on the Oil Reserves in his Sphere Of Influence. Hence, the West created a Host Of False Pretexts to invade Iraq and eliminate him.

You see, nature, and God, if you believe in one, has a wonderful way of ruining the best laid out plans especially if it is based on False Pretexts.

Afghanistan and Iraq have put the West in a Quagmire. It has made Mr. George W. Bush the worst President in the U. S. A.'s History. It is bleeding the U. S. A. so much so that China owns the U. S. A. in a manner of speaking. It has placed the World in Stagflation or Recession. It will see Crude Oil prices climb to about two times its current price.

Who is the Victor then?. Ask Pope Benedict?. He has learned the hard way.

If you do not have the will to do so, try Eggs Benedict for Sunday Brunch. I will be doing that around Noon.

Eggs Benedict is a dish that consists of two halves of an English muffin, topped with ham or bacon, poached eggs, and hollandaise sauce.

We are using French Bread instead of Muffins.

Open-Mindedness!



Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 16, 2008 12:00 AM
57
16/03/08

GF
"Not a bad idea when one considers the venom that you think you have the right to spew in this forum which is visited by ........."

Estee has raised the issue of intermediate marriage; GF, why no response?
Proud Hindu
Los Angeles, United States
Mar 16, 2008 12:00 AM
56
Proud Hindu/Thiagan,

>> Estee has raised the issue of intermediate marriage; GF, why no response?

I write on issues that I want to write about.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 16, 2008 12:00 AM
55
How is it that India does not know that the West is opportunistic?. Why is it so keen to jump in to the U. S. A.'s Lap and to establish its credentionals, it has instigated trouble in Tibet at the U. S. A.'s behest?. Is not India friendless and supportless after the Death of the Soviet Bloc and is Desperately Seeking Susan as exemplified in the U. S. A.?.





Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 16, 2008 12:00 AM
54
17/03/08

GF
The practice and many others in Islam are so indefensible and an insult to today's culture, that you ran away from commenting.

Joseph
How do youy know that USA is opportunistic? India and USA are natural allies in the war against terror. We get technology from USA and Israel; what do we get from muslim countries except an endless supply of suicide bombers. They are already producing them in Bangalore mosques and we do not need to outsource them.
Proud Hindu
Los Angeles, United States
Mar 16, 2008 12:00 AM
53

“Is not India friendless and supportless after the Death of the Soviet Bloc and is Desperately Seeking Susan as exemplified in the U. S. A”

The 'Fox'eph again shows his blue skin

sreejith
bangalore, india
Mar 15, 2008 12:00 AM
52
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> Yasmin Alibhai wrote a piece on 24 november 2007 claiming that a majority of muslims were dogmatic and fanatics.

Being one of the most hate-filled and bigotic posters in this forum, you are the last one who should be talking about Muslim fanatics.

>> This forum shows the hatred between the 2 communities. So when I say that muslims should
have left for Pakistan, then there is reason behind it.

There were better Muslims and better Hindus who wanted a united India, but bigots like you won out. Since then bigots have multiplied, thanks to the parivar propaganda machine in India, and the mullahs let loose by Zia ul Haq in Pakistan.

The rest of your post is your usual hate baqwash, and needs no reply.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
51
Why a Brhamin applies tilak to his body?
Raghunandan, the great law giver from Bengal, said after bathing, the tilak was to be affixed with mud and after the homa, with the ashes in order to save from such sins as the sight of Chandlas and others.
sanaulla sharief
new york, United States
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
50
The following verse from the Upanishad alludes to the inability of man to imagine God in a particular form:
"Na samdrse tisthati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam."
"His form is not to be seen; no one sees Him with the eye."
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:20]
"Na tasya pratima asti
"There is no image of Him."
[Yajurveda 32:3]
"Shudhama poapvidham"
"He is bodyless and pure."
[Yajurveda 40:8]
"Andhatama pravishanti ye asambhuti mupaste"
"They enter darkness, those who worship the natural elements" (Air, Water, Fire, etc.). "They sink deeper in darkness, those who worship sambhuti (created things)."
[Yajurveda 40:9]
"Lead us to the good path and remove the sin that makes us stray and wander."
[Yajurveda 40:16]
sanaulla sharief
new york, United States
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
49
Authenticity of Scriptures.
The structure of the book should be a unitary compilation, not a cut and paste from earlier sources, not a layered composition and should not have undergone significant redaction or glosses in an evolutionary development. The book should meet the criteria of provenance. Can the book be attributed to the person who received the revelation? What is the time lag between revelation and first compilation? Is there any other version of the book and historical assurance that the original revelation was accurately and completely preserved?
sanaulla sharief
new york, United States
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
48
"Why a Brhamin applies tilak to his body?"

Tilak is applied by people of all castes.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
47
14/03/08

Vinodh
Did you notice Thiagan has been absent for the last twenty days or so. I think GF has commissioned his Tabligi thugs to go after him or like a school kid complaining to the Head Master, petitioned to the Editor to have him removed. What you did GF?

SS
An inebiriated husband says triple talaaq and wants retsitution later. What is the procedure in Islam. The lady has to marry a third person and should have the intercourse with him and it should be videographed for proof of consummation; the inrtermediate husband should then divorce her and there she stands purified. The original husband can marry her. This is the religion of peace or barbarism.
estee
madras, India
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
46
Estee/Thiagan,

>> I think GF has commissioned his Tabligi thugs to go after him.

Not a bad idea when one considers the venom that you think you have the right to spew in this forum which is visited by members of different communities.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
45
“How is Gautier ‘mala fides’ and a hate propagandist when he is stating the obvious?”

“Read the following excellent post and the article linked by it”

Look, Aurangzeb may have some good points. Every person has. May be Hitler also had, and so did Mussolini. (RSS must be doing SOME good too). we judge a person by what he largely did. And Aurangzeb, by your own admission was cruel and a Hindu hater. All attempts by Indian ‘eminent’ historians to whitewash his wrong doings will not change this fact. So if Gautier states the obvious, its not mala fides and does not make him a hate propagandist.

BTW, you have picked up just argument form my post and gave a weak rejoinder to it. So typically you!

“I do not swear at "people", but only at the most loathsome of the hate merchants in this forum, like Thomasmid/Bagai or Soma/Bodepudi. Talking reasonably with them is a waste of time.”

Incidentally, you heap your choicest abuses like liar, idiot, bigot,and hate monger to only Indian hindus in this forum. I never see to rebuking chacha Joe or Samanulla not- so sharif.
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
44
Namo/Nandu,

>> "I never see to rebuking chacha Joe or Samanulla not- so sharif"

The greatest amount of naked communal hatred expressed in this forum on a daily basis is by Soma/Bodepudi and Thomasmid/Bagai, and yet hardly any of our Hindu friends say anything to them. When a couple of Muslim posters trash Hinduism, a lot of people immediately jump on them, so there is no need for me to jump in too, especially since it is clear that those two Muslim posters are responding to the unceasing attacks on Islam coming from Bodepudi and Bagai. I do not think Joseph attacks any religions. He is a feisty brawler who gives as much as he gets.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
43
Mr. farukhi

Do you still have any doubts in the statement-“ On a proportionate basis, Muslims were more responsible for violent attacks which resulted in property/life losses”.

Plz let me know
sreejith
bangalore, india
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
42
To the true Hindu believers, it matters not what version they are reading. The Book is a medium through which they pay their respects to the almighty, whosoever He is. That much they understand and that is enough for them!

To them those who argue on versions are political Hindus!
sohan
rockville, United States
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
41
Namo/Nandu,

>> by swearing at people, calling them bigots, hate mongers etc.

I do not swear at "people", but only at the most loathsome of the hate merchants in this forum, like Thomasmid/Bagai or Soma/Bodepudi. Talking reasonably with them is a waste of time.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
40
Sanaulla:>>

Just a bit more of info on vishnu and siva, in case you are really interested.

Vishnu represents, controls, 3-dimensional space, He is seen as a two-eyed God. Siva represents, controls, the 4-dimensional space-time continuum; just a functional division, between two aspects of a basically Singular Absolute. You know two eyes are reqd for good 3-D vision, people with one-eye defect find distance-judgement difficult. Similarly, 3 eyes are reqd for perceptions on the 4-D universe. Hence, Siva is seen to have 3 eyes, third eye on forehead centre.

hindoh SaaSwata-dharmasya Sivah Seersham, haris-tu hrid; samyogaad anayoh Saktih tushTaa pushTi-pra-daayinee!.

deSaroopo naaraayNo kaala-roopa-Sivasya hrid,
deSotthitaa mahaamaayaa kaale nrityam karoti saa!

You seem to know enough sanskrit to understand the meanings of the above two poems.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
39
Sanaulla:>>

Just a bit more of info on vishnu and siva, in case you are really interested.

Vishnu represents, controls, 3-dimensional space, He is seen as a two-eyed God. Siva represents, controls, the 4-dimensional space-time continuum; just a functional division, between two aspects of a basically Singular Absolute. You know two eyes are reqd for good 3-D vision, people with one-eye defect find distance-judgement difficult. Similarly, 3 eyes are reqd for perceptions on the 4-D universe. Hence, Siva is seen to have 3 eyes, third eye on forehead centre.

hindoh SaaSwata-dharmasya Sivah Seersham, haris-tu hrid; samyogaad anayoh Saktih tushTaa pushTi-pra-daayinee!.

deSaroopo naaraayNo kaala-roopa-Sivasya hrid,
deSotthitaa mahaamaayaa kaale nrityam karoti saa!

You seem to know enough sanskrit to understand the meanings of the above two poems.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
38
Valmiki's epic is known as Aadi Kaavya and generally accepted as the original version. But Ramanujan makes it appear as though there were parallel versions or earlier ones which existed in other languages and regions. Wonder what axe he has to grind!
R. NARASIMHAN
CHENNAI, INDIA
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
37
Namo/Nandu,

>> you can have an intellectual argument with an intellectual person. you and your jihadi brothers do not fall into that catagory.

Is that your intellectual answer?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
36
Namo,

>> why shouldn't he be called as a paedophile.

Pedophelia is an antisocial and forced sexual activity, not a culturally approved (for the time and the place) and parentally approved union. Defense of the Ramayana should be left to persons who are more mature and knowledgeable than you.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
35
Vijay A.,

>> what Iqbal means that "Ahle Nazar" - people of vision - consider him as the "Imam-e-Hind".

Iqbal was secure enough in his own faith to be able to esteem the faith of others. His writings on Islam are very liberal and reform-oriented.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
34
Is Kanchan Gupta of the Pioneer interested in art, or is he, just like Gautier, interested in denigrating Muslim history in India? Gautier has already admitted his selectivity, saying that favorable exhibits were not shown because of lack of space!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
33
Some one has raised a question as to how many versions of Quran are there?. He can just go the internet and check it.
sanaulla sharief
new york, United States
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
32
Orogin of the Holy River Gnaga. Shivites say it is from the hair of Shiva and Vishnuvites say it from the foot of the Vishnu in Vaikunth and descending upon Kailasa fell on the head of Shiva.
Who is going to decide, who is greater? Shiva or Vishnu.
sanaulla sharief
new york, United States
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
31
In Ruppal village in Gujratduring Palli festival on Navaratri, 25000kilo of pure ghee is poured in the streets which goes down the drain. India Today. Nov 15, 1994
Is it also part of faith?
sanaulla sharief
new york, United States
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
30
Shrinking space of Hinduism
By Kancha Ilaiah
The Hindu, Nov 21, 2001
It is a known fact that the Dalits - even the Shudras and tribals - never became part of any major religion with full spiritual equality. It is an elementary issue that the right to religion includes the right to priesthood, as it integrates a person fully into the religion
sanaulla sharief
new york, United States
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
29
Dalit Priests hit caste ceiling in Utter Pradesh. The Indian Express July 09,2002
No temple jobs for the 100-odd Dalit graduatesout of the 1025 from the Utter Pradesh Sanskrit Santhan
sanaulla sharief
new york, United States
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
28
Reservations are a tool to keep the low caste people in to the Hindu fold.
sanaulla sharief
new york, United States
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
27
Respect and Dignity
Frontline,Jun. 19 - Jul. 02, 2004
Although many Dalits in the village, including family members of those who have already opted to convert, have reservations about leaving the Hindu fold, they confirm that the caste-Hindus, even small boys, disrespectfully call Dalit elders by their names. "More than anything else, the verbal abuse hurts us," says Muniyandi (65). He does not rule out joining Islam, but says: "I have lived my life bearing all these insults. I will be happy if at least my children and grandchildren can live in peace with respect that is our due." Muniyandi, who has attended meetings addressed by Dalit converts, says that those who desire to join Islam do not expect any favours. "All they require is respect, respect that is due to them," he says
sanaulla sharief
new york, United States
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
26
Look Mr. Sharief, I can also post interesting tidbits about Islam or Muhammad from the web if I really want to. Don't hide your ignorance of my religion behind newspaper or magazine clippings from the web.


That aside, you don't seem to get the point: What's more important (in either Hinduism or Islam) - the message or its form? Why should either the authenticity or the author of these writings matter if what they say makes sense?

Conversely, a document (like the Quran or even the Gita), no matter how well-known its source has no importance if it's full of inconsistent illogical gibberish.

Look at the Quran carefully before you call the kettle of Hinduism black...
photonman1
Hyderabad, India
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
25
"Reservations are a tool to keep the low caste people in to the Hindu fold. "

So??? Whats your beef, I mean pork in that?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
24
Sanaulla: >>" Orogin of the Holy River Gnaga. Shivites say it is from the hair of Shiva and Vishnuvites say it from the foot of the Vishnu in Vaikunth and descending upon Kailasa fell on the head of Shiva.Who is going to decide, who is greater? Shiva or Vishnu. "

Again on the 'divide hindus and destroy them' trick, only betw shaivaites and vaishnavaites, not castewise. Your cleverness is creditable, but Allah's punushment to you will be equally great.

Viswam vishnuh, starts the vishnusahasranama, meaning vishnu, the all-enterer, is 'space', the omnipresent aspect of the Absolute, kalabhairvah Sivah, Siva controls time, past-present-future, the omniscient aspect of the Absolute, while Sakti, the omnipotence component is half spiritual [paraaSakti] and half matter/energy, aparaa prakriti. Matter and antimatter, when they come back together, they nuetralize into empty space. The relativist cosmodynamic sakti comes out of space and operates in time, like a typical woman coming out of brother[vishnu=space]'s home and domonates the life of husband [siva=time].

When vishnu took the trivikrama form, whole earth, including the north pole ice-come was at his feet, whole galactic space his body, as viswaroopa. Thus, when the northpole icecone melted for bhagiratha prayer to form ganga and fill all southern ridges [biblical floods], it is seen symbolically as flowing from the feet of vishnu. The molten icewater falling down on himalaya would have created a hole there and a only big lake, hence siva entered himalaya and received the waters on the hair tuft on his head and released it as a small stream forming the ganges, eventually forming the ocean, saagara. Hence, Siva took permanent residence in kailas in mid-himalaya thereafter, facing south with cosmomom consort, hence all religions of the world originated only in the southerrn watershed of himalaya from arabia to vietnam.As you can see, both perceptions, ganges flowing from trivikrama-vishnu's feet and then being cought and released from gangaa-dhara-Siva's hair-tuft, both are true and coordinated, not contradictory as your evil anti-hindu mind wants to project.

For hinduism Siva is head, vishnu the heart, both essential for survival, they coordinate, not contradict. Vyasa says those who try to dichotomize betw siva and vishnu will fail, getting help from neither, like Ravan; those who value and worship both, like Arjun, win their wars. They are the obverse and reverse of the same coin. Siva is thyagaraja, the all- renouncer, wearing tigerskin, ashes, serpant-garland etc.; vishnu sundararaja, the inner enjoyer of all the beauty and bounty of created universe. Only the all-owner can be the all-reouncer, hence both are the same absolute providimg the space-time stage for mayaa-sakti's relativist cosmodynamics to operate. Gita calls the\absolute: upadrasTaa anumantaa ca bhartaa bhoktaa maheSwarah, paramaatmeti ca-apyuktio lokesmin purushaparah: meaning Cosmolord is observer [siva]. facilatator [vishnu], lord[siva], enjoyer [vishnu], the macro-lord [siva] and the micro-self [vishnu], for all operations on the cosmodomain, referring to siva and vishnu, alternately, in the description of purushottama in viswayoga.

I don't expect you to understand or appreciate what I have said above.You will only find other holes to pick in hinduism. Good luck to you, until Allah cuts your crooked tail.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
23
Namo/Nandu,

>> i was just replying to one of your brother who was heralding abuse against hinduism.

But don't you think Ramayana would be better defended by someone who is above mudslinging?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
22
Sanaulla: >>"foot of the Vishnu in Vaikunth"

I have explained the concept of vaikunTa in on of my poems of perennial philo: 'vaikuNTo-ayam yagjna-kuNTah yatra govinda-darSanam, vairaagya-gjnaana-deepta-hrid Siva-sam-bhootta-yoginah', meaning, vaikunt represent the vairaagya-kunt, the desire/attachment-free heart of a Siva-yogi, goodness-saint, who sees the omnipresent Vishnu as the viswaroopa trivikrama in his heart after himself becoming omnscient Siva, becoming an observer of the universe. Vaikunt is not a place or planet on any specfic galaxy. Bhagavata saysv that when kamsa was cruel to godloving people of mathura, the seers of the neighborhood saw vishnu in their meditational sphere [vaikunt, as above] and invoked vishnu's birth as krishna to kill kamsa. Krishna was born and killed kamsa, eventually. Prayers will touch the absolute and get response, only if the praying minds have hearts free of hatred. Ordinary people, although suffering, also hate their oppressors. Only when prayer is accompanied by non-hate, like that of gandhi in satyagraha in south africa, Govinda, responds. Govinda stands for: 'vindante gaavah yasmin sukham', He in whom cow-like harm/hate-free unselfish world-goodly people [rishis, divines [angels], mothers] find their object of spiritual satisfaction.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
21
Idly-dosa:>>"There is so much oppression within the folds of Hinduism that most lower castes chose to abandon the faith, in other words walked out of the circle of oppression. Why blame Christain missionairies "

Idlies and dosas do not seem to mix well with chutney even after conv to chr. Very recently, there have been clashes in TN betw dalit christians and vanniyar christians; dalits asking for a separate church have been refused by the catholic bishop of the place. Perhaps, both groups may end up reconverting as hindus and going to adi paraa-Sakti temple, where Mary is worshipped in just another name, but all people only worship the divine, no clergy lecturing to them in between.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
20
SANAULLAH NOT SO SHARIF
Who is going to decide, who is greater? Shiva or Vishnu.
SANAULLA SHARIEF
NEW YORK UNITED STATES
05:05:55AM (IST)

I hope at least it is not decided by a bearded Mullah in the light of the Hadith .
vikas ranjan
delhi, India
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
19
Sanaulla:>"the right to religion includes the right to priesthood, as it integrates a person fully into the religion "

Priests, brahmins, in hinduism, do not control the hindu temples like the clergy in chr and imams in islam for churches and mosques. They only do pooja and give prasad to devotees. Temple control is in hands of OBC dharma-kartas, warlord/landlord types.
Brahmin priests do not lecture on duties, nor dispense law, like issuing fatwas nor excommunications from the parish group. Some learned pundits might discourse on ramayan etc in temples, attendance voluntary. Other faiths are not denigrated during these discourses.
The fact that priesthood in hinduism was not by birth only is clearly indicated by the word 'dwija' meaning twice-born [like evangelists being reborn in chr]; all born equal, only those who get gayatri mantra are reborn as braamhaNas, entunable to divinity-impulses coming thro sun-rays; all eligible to become dwijas. I am myself from gotra of viswamitra the seer of gayatri mantra, willing to to give it to you also formally, if you certify that you have a hate-free heart and will be vegetarian in your life.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Mar 10, 2008 12:00 AM
18
Vijay A.,

Thanks for quoting Mohammed Iqbal's verse on Ram. The key couplet goes :

The existence of Ram is a matter of pride for India,
For the people he is a supreme religious leader.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 10, 2008 12:00 AM
17
Allama Iqbal's reinforces a faithful view of Lord Ram, whereas AK Ramanujan who was an academic at the University of Chicago , is a critique of different versions of Ramayan. Now what is happening here is that a critque is being being pounded to confuse the people with the issue of Rama Sethu. One must remember faith and critique are totally diffrent view points. Just to please , the UPA bringing an academic's critique will not derail people's faith.

Having done this , why not a concrete article on the environmental point of view. In fact an environmental point of view will be better approach than a critique. A critique is just like the media man writing about 20-20 cricket, without actually touching the bat and ball.

Outlook is just wasting time by roping in AK Ramanujan etc and an Univeristy syllabus to the Rama Sethu issue. In this issue , the inimitable Bernard Shaw's quote is valid

“He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches.”

So why does Outlook not commission the following
people , who have many left of centre on board to the Rama Sethu issue.


http://www.greensl.net/...20jesu%20(04.12.04).doc


I have posted this several times. Encore!!!! If the environmentlists say it is going to cause terrible hadrships to the coastal people, then let AK Ramanujan rest in peace and as GB Shaw says, let the can do people do something and let JNU , Delhi University academics enjoy delusion.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Mar 10, 2008 12:00 AM
16
Ramanujan mentions that Valmiki's Ramayana is the most 'prestigious'. Prestigious in what sense? Oldest source?

In that case, another hypothesis can fit all of Ramanujan's observations is this:

Valmiki wrote the first Ramayana, and all other Ramayanas that we know today are derived from this original version. Given the varied cultures and the tradition of oral history, it shouldn't be surprising that different 'versions' of the story emerged.


Note that this doesn't tell us anything the authenticity of Valmiki's version. Ramayana could have still been a historical account (albeit a bit dramatized) or one of those classic best selling novels of his time!
photonman1
Hyderabad, India
Mar 10, 2008 12:00 AM
15
dubious scholarship from ramanujan. Chances are he will be a crypto christian or a commie with an evident agenda to confuse and demean hindu faith. i am sure he will not have the guts to write such crap about the Quran. Hindus must take a leaf from the book of courageous muslims and teach scum like ramanujan a good lesson- whether it is by street protests or by legal action.
radesh rangarajan
chennai, India
Mar 10, 2008 12:00 AM
14
It is wrong to say that the followers of other faiths do not entertain comments. Comments are always welcome is substantiated by facts. Ehen it comes to Bible , there are many a versions to name a few,THE BIBLE: VERSIONS AND TRANSLATIONS AND DATES

Translations:

Aramaic (original spoken language of Jesus)
Hebrew/ Greek (written)
Latin-Vulgate (Translated by Jerome, 400 A.D.)
Versions:
1384 Wycliff
1526 Tyndale
1535 Coverdale
1537 Matthew
1539 Great Bible
1568 Geneva Bible
1568 Bishop's Bible
1582 Rheims, New Testament
1609 Douai, Old Testament
1611 Authorized / King James Version
1903 R.T. Weymouth, The New Testament in Modern Speech
1913 James Moffatt, A New Translation of the Bible
1917 The Holy Scripture
1927 E.T. Goodspeed, The Complete Bible: An American Translation
1944 Ronald Knox, The Holy Bible
1946 The Revised Standard Version (The Common Bible)
1950 The New World Testament
1955 H.J. Schonfield, The Authentic New Testament
1958 J.B. Phillips, New Testament in Modern English
1958 The Amplified Bible
1959 The Holy Bible: The Berkely Version in Modern English
1961 The New English Bible
1966 The Jerusalem Bible
1966 Today's English Version
1970 New American Bible
1971 New American Standard Bible
1971 Kenneth Taylor, The Living Bible
1973 New International Version
* Collier's Encyclopedia. Volume 4, MacMillan Educational Corporation, New York. P.F. Collier, Inc. London & New York. 1976.
It may be noted that just in the last century there were more then 18 versions, they all differ from each other. No two brothers will follow the same bible in the same household
sanaulla sharief
new york, United States
Mar 10, 2008 12:00 AM
13
At the inter-section of east new york and rockaway there are more than 8 chruches, within half a mile. It does not mean that they have so many followers. The fact is every chruch thinks , it is correct and they will preach their own Bible. And to keep the congreagation intact, they compromise on many things, even if the priest is gay.
sanaulla sharief
new york, United States
Mar 10, 2008 12:00 AM
12
"It is wrong to say that the followers of other faiths do not entertain comments. Comments are always welcome is substantiated by facts. Ehen it comes to Bible , there are many a versions to name a few,THE BIBLE: VERSIONS AND TRANSLATIONS AND DATES "


How many versions of quran exist, Mr SS. And how many versions of "Rangeela Rasool"
sreejith
bangalore, india
Mar 10, 2008 12:00 AM
11
G Faruki

Iqbal's couplet:

Hay Raam kay wajood pe Hindustan ko naaz
Ahl-e-nazar samajhtey hayn uss ko Imam-e-Hind

that you have translated implies that Ram was just a "supreme religious leader" [for the Hindus] but what Iqbal means that "Ahle Nazar" - people of vision - consider him as the "Imam-e-Hind".

For Sunni Muslims, Imam is simply a religious title for some one who leads prayer at the mosque, but for Shia Muslims Imam is a leader, whose guidance extends to spiritual and temporal matters, and the theological concepts related to the Imam are the very foundations upon which the rest of the theology rests. Since Iqbal was the follower of Imam Hussain and used Persian as his poetic medium, his concept of Imam is closer to the Shia version when he addressed Ram as Imam-e-Hind ...

Also he wrote:

Ye hindiyon kay fikr-e-falak rus kaa hay asar
Rifat may aasmaan say bhi ooncha hay baam-e-Hind

It is because of the concern of Hindis (Indians) for the spritual beyond that the head of Hind (India) is higher than even than the skies ... clearly he is pointing to our Vedic traditions and ancient Rishis and Munis who aspired and attained the spiritual heights leaving the physical world behind ... who had an enduring effect on Ram right from his childhood through out all his life ...

Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Mar 10, 2008 12:00 AM
10
In my opinion, all religions and beliefs which have survived over millennia should be treated with respect and reverance by all humans, without questioning the historicity and dependability of the traditions. There must be spiritual truth behind all of them, otherwise, they would have vanished in centuries. There can be no duality to the Absolute, there can be only a polymorphic monotheistic explanation for all of them, which can be only seen thro spiritual meditative insights, not thro archeo-anthropological, stones-and-bones-based, formulations.

In my spiritual view: vishnu = space, Siva = time, Devi=relativist universe with superoptically vibrant divines and suboptically vibrant matter/energy, spirits, lives, all Her manifestations, GaneSa = John baptist, the vigorator of souls in action and success, Skanda= Jesus, the liberatory salvator of souls; magdalene = devsena marrying Skanda as Jesus, [like valli marrying murugan in S.India] despite sanyas, hence His permitting His own crucufiction, Allah = Siva = Yahvey= Jehova= Christ in resurrection; Devi = the holy ghost mothering Jesus [=skanda] in Mary, as immaculate conception. Ali = hari= vishnu=ram; abraham=bramha, with sara=sarawati as wife; moses = indra; fatima= padma=lakshmi=sita; mohammed = ravan born as sita[fatima]'s dad in repentance; st. paul =saul = kumbhakarna, in repentant service of humanity in spreading christianity thro church, luther = rudra = siva, for church-reform, buddha = narrayana =vishnu, for reform of hinduism in decay, mahavira = aajaneya, sivaamsa; valluvar = vyasa reborn, with vyasa-sukee=vasuki as wife for spiritual cultural rejuvenation of S.India, mitras = sun god; ahura-mazda = fire god, just as Ram = krishna = vishnu, Adi Sankara = Siva., and so on.

Well, I know no one will agree with me. But, I am satisfied with completeness and comprehensiveness of my perceptions.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Mar 09, 2008 12:00 AM
9
>>>"celebrated scholar A.K. Ramanujan, on the many Ramayanas living across languages and narrative genres, each different but no less legitimate than Valmiki's epic."

celebrated author? celebrated by whom? by himself or the psuedo-secular anti-hindu media tribes?

How can each later version of ramayana be "no less legitimate" than valmiki's, which was written during Rama's period, parts recited in front of Rama himself by his kids lava and kuca, as indicated in uttara-khaanda of ramayana?
Kamban, Tulasi Das, many others, strong devotees of Rama, took some poetic, artistic, devotional freedoms to give somewhat different interpretations, for the spiritual enjoyment of the devoted readers. There is an adhyaatma-ramaayana in malayalam, where it is said real sita entered fire and an image-sita got captured and captivated by ravan; after ravan was killed, the image-sita went back inti fire and real sita came out to join ram. Highly spiritual hindus like to believe this version. Persence of large number of versions of ramayan in various indian languages, developed over 7 millennia, should be admired and appreciated , not ridiculed.

>>"copyright: Molly Daniels Ramanujan)."
Who is this Molly Daniels Ramanujan, a kid of his converted to Chr? If so, the mischief and its source are very clear.

If someone would write a new version of the bible or the quran, even with highly devotional intents, will such versions be considered 'no less legitimate' than the originals?. Some disciples of periar in TN seem to have written a 'keemaayan' making Ravan the hero and Ram the villain. It is perhaps equally legitimate for OL's churchians. For them, any one who pulls the legs of hindus is 'celebrated', anything which undercuts hinduism is 'legitimate'. Wait and watch, Jesus Christ will punish them intolerably.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Mar 09, 2008 12:00 AM
8
>>"the sentimental import the Ramayan has for Brahmins."

Ramayan importance and value NOT just for brahmins, but all castes of hindus, including dalits, and for sikhs also. Most of the authors of the many ramayans are not brahmins. Valmiki himself was a tribal hunter before naarada gave him the rama-mantra for penance which made him a rishi, seer, enabled mentally and spiritually to write the ramayana.

The attempts of the crypto-chr writers in english media to constantly deride and divide the hindus, castewise, is most disturbing.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Mar 09, 2008 12:00 AM
7
OPEN LETTER TO OUTLOOK & MR RAMANUJAN

Dear Sir/s

This is the second time that Outlook has calumniated the “right wing student activists” and the “Sangh Parivar” for opposing Mr Ramanujan’s essay on many versions of Ramayana.

But instead of dissecting through this “scholarly” work, I would first like to highlight to readers that the name of Mr Ramanujan itself means “servent/brother of Ram” and would ask him, whether he has deliberately (has he not ?) precluded Hindi from his long list of languages in which Ramayana has been re-told over “2500-odd years in South and South/East Asia”, or this “celebrated scholar” is so ignorant and prejudiced as to ignore that it was Tulsidas’s re-telling of Valimiki’s epic that captured the hearts and minds of 100s of millions from Assam to Maharashtra, and Afghanistan to Orissa, at the height of an alien rule in Delhi which sought to demolish but could not the very essence and ethos of our civilization.

For Ramayana as re-told by Kamban in Tamilnadu, Tulsidas in Hindi heartland and Premanand in Gujrat, Guru Gobind Singh in Punjab, Eknath in Maharashtra, Krittivas in Bengal, Madhav Kandali in Assam, Balram das in Oriya, Buddha Reddy in Telugu, Thunchaththu Ezhuthachan in Malyalam, “Ramavatara Charita” in Kashmiri and “Pothi Ramayana” in Urdu, is the one that has been revered and accepted as the true story of Lord Rama which has inspired and guided our daily lives since time immemorial.

Mohammad Iqbal’s rendering are worth quoting here:

Labrayz hay sharab-e-haqiqat say jaam-e-Hind
Sub falsafee hayn khitta-e-maghrib kay Raam-e-Hind

Ye hindiyon kay fikr-e-falak rus kaa hay asar
Rifat may aasmaan say bhi ooncha hay baam-e-Hind

Iss dayss may hooee hayn hazaron malak sarisht
Mash'hoor jin kay dum say hay dunya may naam-e-Hind

Hay Raam kay wajood pe Hindustan ko naaz
Ahl-e-nazar samajhtey hayn uss ko Imam-e-Hind

Aijaz uss chiragh-e-hidayat kaa hay yehee
Roshan ter az sehar hay zamanay may shaam-e-Hind

Talwaar kaa dhanee thaa, shuja'at may fard thaa
Pakeezgee may josh-e-mohabbat may fard thaa


What is Outlook and Ramanujan hoping to achieve by highlighting its rather abstruse and esoteric Thai, Jain or tribal Santhal versions ? The leftist academics and historians in JNU including the PM’s daughter may find this exercise stimulating their brains but if the “right wing student activists” and “Sangh Parivar” opposes such moves then why are they stigmatized as if they want to impose their own “official soap-retelling” version …

Clearly there is a political motive behind this …

P.S if any one needs a translation of Iqbal’s poem I will try and do that but I am nota Urdu expert …
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Mar 09, 2008 12:00 AM
6
All history books written by JNU professors should be considered perstory, meaning perverted history. History degrees and doctorates given by JNU should be derecognized by Delhi, Oxford and Cambridge universities. Jokers' Non-university may be a better interpretation of JNU. Real universities should be truly universal in outlook, not tied to ideologies of any kind.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Mar 09, 2008 12:00 AM
5
As someone(I think Vijay A.) on this forum had posted some info regarding the Shiva's statue at CERN. I found an excellent article on the same subject on haindavakeralam.com, Here are some excerpts from it.

"The Wave Structure of Matter Explains the Atomic Structure of Matter. The 'Particle' as the Wave-Center of a Spherical Standing Wave in Space" explains the cosmic dance of Nataraja."

"Modern physics has shown that the rhythm of creation and destruction is not only manifest in the turn of the seasons and in the birth and death of all living creatures, but is also the very essence of inorganic matter," and that "For
the modern physicists, then, Shiva's dance is the dance of subatomic matter."

-Fritjof Capra in “The Tao of Physics”, 1975

More recently, Fritjof Capra explained that "Modern physics has shown that the rhythm of creation and destruction is not only manifest in the turn of the seasons and in the birth and death of all living creatures, but is also the very essence of inorganic matter," and "for the modern physicists, then, Shiva's dance is the dance of subatomic matter."

It is indeed as Capra concluded: "Hundreds of years ago, Indian artists created visual images of dancing Shiva's in a beautiful series of bronzes. In our time, physicists have used the most advanced technology to portray the patterns of the cosmic dance. The metaphor of the cosmic dance thus unifies ancient mythology, religious art and modern physics."

http://haindavakeralam....aspx?PAGEID=5738&SKIN=B
J
Bangalore, India
Mar 08, 2008 12:00 AM
4
"The chapter starts with a query that how many Ramayanas are there, and then a story (without indicating its source) is cited wherein Hanuman is described as 'henchman' of Lord Ram and then again as a 'tiny monkey'. In this story it is narrated that once Lord Ram's ring had fallen in a hole which reached to a kingdom below and Hanuman, in search of the ring, goes down and is caught and placed on a platter and presented before the king of spirits down below. Then a platter full of rings is presented to Hanuman and he is asked to trace the missing ring and is ridiculed to learn that every time a new Ram sits on throne, he loses his ring which in turn is collected by the king of spirits, and that there are as many Ramayanas as there are rings on the platter.

To any person of belief this story will appear to be outrageous, purposely implanted to belittle the Hindu psyche. Derogatory words like "henchman" and "tiny monkey" about Lord Hanuman who is worshipped by young and old alike throughout the length and breadth of India and overseas are just appalling."

"Though the author, Shri A.K. Ramanunjam, has tried to justify the presentation to show the difference in version of specific incidents in Valmiki and Kampan, but prima facie, it appears mischievous and purposely done to degrade the great epic in the eyes of modern youth and inculcate in them a spirit of hatred, repulsion and revolt against their own ancient culture. The motive appears to be either to make them atheist or agnostic and to convert them thoroughly materialistic as communists do."

"The author goes on with his venture and narrates how Jains treat Ram, Ravan and Sita. He does not hesitate to dig out a theory that according to this thought Sita was even daughter of Ravan and confuses Hindu mind that it was Lakshman who actually killed Ravan and not Ram."

Author even sorts out a tale from Santhal folklore and puts forth the greatest outrage to Hindu psyche before the students of literature that Ravan as well as Lakshman both seduced Sita. No one on Earth so far dared to question the character of Sita so brazenly as Shri Ramanunjan has done, though, all through under the convenient cover of a folklore!

http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/3819.html
J
Bangalore, India
Mar 08, 2008 12:00 AM
3
Did PM's daughter compile this book?

“Upinder Singh has most definitely compiled a book with the objectionable text as a chapter. The book has not yet been published but we have a copy,” Sharma said.

The Prime Minister’s Office said there had been a misunderstanding as Upinder Singh’s name had been found in one copy of the text."

http://www.telegraphind...ation/story_8857319.jsp
J
Bangalore, India
Mar 08, 2008 12:00 AM
2
"MALES, ARISE AND AWAKE!"

Can't.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Mar 08, 2008 12:00 AM
1
"MALES, ARISE AND
AWAKE!"

Can't.

---------------------
-------------------------------

Bohut khoob. Wah. Wah. Adaab, Janab A. K. GHAI Sahab.


Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
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