Counterpoint
Aurangzebs Of Today
An exhibition on Mughal emperor Aurangzeb at the Lalit Kala Akademi in Chennai was abruptly closed down and the paintings taken away by the police, ostensibly to avoid a law and order problem. What gives?
In a statement made after the July, 2005, blasts in London organised by suicide terrorists of Pakistani origin, Mr.Tony Blair, the then British Prime Minister, spoke of the need to counter jihadi terrorism not only operationally through better intelligence, better physical security, better counter-terrorism operations etc, but also ideologically in order to draw the attention of the public to the pernicious ideas being spread by Al Qaeda and pro-Al Qaeda jihadi organisations and counter them energetically.

Amongst such pernicious ideas are that there was no civilisation in the world before the advent of Islam, that the Muslims have a right to re-capture all lands which historically belonged to them, that the Muslims do not recognise national frontiers and ,therefore, have a right to wage a jihad anywhere in the world where Islam is in danger and that the Muslims have the religious right and obligation to acquire weapons of mass destruction (WMD) and use them to protect their religion, if necessary.

The Pakistani jihadi organisations such as the Lashkar-e-Toiba (LET), the Harkat-ul-Jihad-al-Islami (HUJI), the Jaish-e-Mohammad (JEM), the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen (HUM) and the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LEJ), which are members of Osama bin Laden's International Islamic Front (IIF), project Aurangzeb as the greatest ruler in the history of the Indian sub-continent and describe their aim as the "liberation" of the Muslims of India and restoration of what they view as the golden era of Aurangzeb in the sub-continent.

This glorification of Aurangzeb was actually started by the Pakistan government after the birth of Pakistan in 1947. The text-books got written and prescribed in schools by different Pakistan governments depicted that there was no civilisation or culture in India before the Muslims came to the sub-continent and glorified Aurangzeb. In September 1996, Murtaza Ali Bhutto, the younger brother of Benazir Bhutto, was allegedly killed by the police of Karachi after he had returned from Islamabad, where he allegedly had a fierce quarrel with Benazir and her husband Mr.Asif Ali Zardari over his demand that he should be appointed as the Vice-Chairman of the Pakistan People's Party. In a piece on the rule of Benazir, the Economist of London compared her to Aurangzeb.

This created a lot of interest among analysts over the influence of the Aurangzeb model on the minds of Pakistani rulers--political and military-- who grew up after its independence and studied the text-books, which glorified him. It is now recognised by imany that one of the reasons for the spreading prairie fire of jihadi terrorism in Pakistan is the pernicious influence of the Aurangzeb model on the mind-set of the Pakistani youth. Many of them, who are spreading havoc across Pakistan, see themselves as the Aurangzebs of today. Aurangzeb as well as bin Laden are their role models.

The overwhelming majority of the Indian Muslim youth, who remain intensely patriotic, have not let themselves be influenced by this pernicious veneration of bin Laden and Aurangzeb and their ideas, but recent events such as the involvement of one or two Indian Muslims in the UK with Al Qaeda, the role of two Indian Muslim youth in the attempted terrorist strikes in London and Glasgow in June last and the recent arrests of some Muslim youth of the Students' Islamic Movement of India (SIMI) in Karnataka indicate that some of these pernicious ideas might have started winning adherents in the India Muslim community too-- in India as well as in the diaspora in the Gulf and the West.

Before this spreads further, it is important to counter this phenomenon ideologically. This is what some respected Muslim clerics and scholars, who had met recently at Deoband, have done. One must welcome their initiative in condemning terrorism. That is also what some activists against terrorism under Mr Francois Gautier, a well-known French journalist living in India for many years, have been doing. Whereas the appeal of the Deobandi congregation was addressed to the Muslim community specifically, the anti-terrorism campaign of Gautier and his small, but devoted band of associates is addressed to all people--whatever be their nationality, religion, ethnicity etc. It seeks to educate them not only on the evils of terrorism, but also on the mental origin of it.

To understand the mental origin of the jihadi terrorism emanating from Pakistan, it is important to identify not only their present-day mentors such as bin Laden, the Pakistani jihadi leaders and the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), but also their historical idols. Aurangzeb is one of their topmost historical idols. It is important to educate the people of India on the real nature of Aurangzeb, his policies and actions so that they do not get easily carried away by the way Aurangzeb's rule is depicted by the jihadi terrorists.

An exhibition organised by Gautier and his associates as part of this education process had a successful run in New Delhi, Pune and Bangalore. In Pune, over 100,000 people visited it. In none of these places, did the members of the local Muslim community view the exhibition as anti-Muslim or anti-Islam. Unfortunately, some members of the community in Chennai viewed it as anti-Muslim and demanded that the exhibition be discontinued. This has reportedly been done on the advice of the Police.

[As we post this, the exhibition in Chennai was abruptly closed down and the paintings taken away by the police--" to avoid a law and order problem" -- after protests that some of the depictions were objectionable and a distortion of history--Ed]

I had attended the inauguration of the exhibition on the opening day (March 3, 2008) and spoke on the importance of understanding the pernicious ideas about Aurangzeb being spread by Pakistani jihadi organisations. I had seen all the exhibits before the inauguration and did not find any of them of a provocative nature. More than the paintings, what was so eloquent in the exhibition was the collection of scanned copies of the various orders issued by Aurangzeb during his rule. These documents were authentic and the scanned copies were made over a period of three years from a Mughul Archive in Rajasthan which, I was told, contain a wealth of documents relating to the Mughul period.

One of the contentions of those, who protested against the exhibition, was that raking up the past would create a communal divide in Tamil Nadu, which has been relatively free of it. One of the lessons of history has been that remaining silent on unpleasant periods in history leads to a repetition of such unpleasant experiences. That is why Western school children are taught about the evils of rulers like Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin etc. That is why the Jewish people keep reminding themselves and the rest of the world about the holocaust. That was why some years ago Jean-Marie Le Pen, the French rightist leader, was severely criticised for denying the reality of the holocaust.

When we deny harsh truths of history, we are only playing into the hands of jihadi terrorists, who see themselves as the Aurangzebs of today.

The links below show what foreign scholars, including scholars in Pakistan itself, have been saying on this subject of what a Pakistani scholar described as a creation of myths regarding the real nature of Muslim rule. When Pakistanis have themselves started realising the damage done to their society and country by this myth-making, leaders of our Muslim community should refrain from starting a similar myth-making exercise in India about the past.


B. Rman is Additional Secretary (retd), Cabinet Secretariat, Govt. of India, New Delhi, and, presently, Director, Institute For Topical Studies, Chennai. 


ALSO SEE:

1. From: The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition | Date: 2007

"Aurangzeb or Aurangzib , 1618-1707, Mughal emperor of India (1658-1707), son and successor of Shah Jahan . He served (1636-44, 1653-58) as viceroy of the Deccan but was constantly at odds with his father and his eldest brother, Dara Shikoh, the heir apparent. When Shah Jahan fell ill in 1658, Aurangzeb seized the opportunity to fight and defeat Dara and two other brothers in a battle for succession. He imprisoned his father for life and ascended the throne at Agra with the reign title Alamgir [world-shaker]. A scholarly, austere man, devoted to Islam, he persecuted the Hindus, destroying their temples and monuments. He executed the guru of the Sikhs (see Sikhism ) when he refused to embrace Islam. Although the Mughal empire reached its greatest extent under Aurangzeb, it was also fatally weakened by revolts of the Sikhs, Rajputs, and Jats in the north and the rebellion of the Marathas in the Deccan. From 1682, Aurangzeb concentrated all his energies on crushing the Marathas, but his costly campaigns were only temporarily successful and further weakened his authority in the north. The Mughal empire fell apart soon after his death."

2. Pakistan Studies 

3. BBC on Pakistan's missile symbolism -- commentary by Zaffar Abbas, BBC correspondent in Islamabad

4.An article carried by the Dawn of Karachi on March 27, 2005:  The myth of history by Prof Shahida Kazi

 
Daily Mail
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Mar 18, 2008 12:00 AM
129
>> Even if he is a sanghi or whatever, he has as much right as irfan habib, romila , MF hussein or any one else to put across his point of view.

Read my post again.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 18, 2008 12:00 AM
128
>>There are two separate issues. One is Gautier's standing as a historian, which is zilch. He is a sanghi hate propagandist...

Gautiers standing or lack of it as a historian is a red herring.

Even if he is a sanghi or whatever, he has as much right as irfan habib, romila , MF hussein or any one else to put across his point of view.

The "libereals " seem to miss this point and justify threat of violence by muslims to close his exhibhition.

But in case of MS university , the "liberals" wanted protection to the painter and condemned violence aginst him.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Mar 18, 2008 12:00 AM
127
Are you so vainglorious, MR. THOMASMID, as to classify your self as everyone?.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 18, 2008 12:00 AM
126
Thomasmid/Bagai,

Your rants are getting to be so stupid, so hateful and so repetitive that one has to question the state of your mental health.

And please don't post messages tonight after you start drinking. It is embarrassing to see a fellow Indian make a fool of himself in public.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
125
Vinod,

>> Most of the modern historians in India are leftist craps.

Line learned in a sanghi shakha!

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
124
Thomas/Bagai,

Your rants are getting to be so stupid, so hateful and so repetitive that one has to question the state of your mental health.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
123
>> Yes. otherwise, Irfan Habib and Romila Thapar would be out of business.

Are they in business because of the principle of'freedom of expression' or because of their academic standing?

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
122
>> Why are you selective in enforcing 'freedom of expression'?

There are two separate issues. One is Gautier's standing as a historian, which is zilch. He is a sanghi hate propagandist. The other is the issue of freedom of expression. Here I agree with you. The way we have had to ban books like Rushdie's Satanic Verses or Laine's book on Shivaji, and the way we have had to close exhibits of paintings or of historical documents is nothing for us to be proud of.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
121
"Is falsified history covered by 'freedom of expression'?"

Yes. otherwise, Irfan Habib and Romila Thapar would be out of business.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
120
To reiterate , the issue is not how you classify Gautier.

You may call his work fiction , just as many call Romila Thapars work a bag of politically correct lies.

If Romila Thapars work is not banned, her books still prrscribed in universities , why should Gautiers exhibhition be closed forcefully by islamic goons?

Why are you selective in enforcing 'freedom of expression' ?
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
119
>>If Gautier is to be classified with the above, there is no problem...

You conveniently forgot to add Romila Thapar , Irfan habib et al to the above list.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
118
>> Jodha Akbar is falsified history according to many rajputs. >>Da vinci code is falsified history according to many christians.

If Gautier is to be classified with the above, there is no problem.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
117
>>Is falsified history covered by 'freedom of expression'?

Forget falsified histroy, even fiction will be covered by 'freedom of expression" if you were not a pseudo liberal.

Jodha Akbar is falsified history according to many rajputs.

Da vinci code is falsified history according to many christians.

History as portryaed by Irfan Habib, romila thapar et al is falsified according to Many other eminent historians.

Should these 3 be banned as well ? Will you spout a similar argument if hindus attack, threaten and close down exhibhitions , which they feel is false history?
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
116
"WHY SHARIAH?
This rather longish article should be of interest to Muslim readers."

What else are the sunni islamist like you interested in?.
sreejith
bangalore, india
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
115
>> The issue here is freedom of exprerssion . Gautiers objectivity or lack of it is not the issue.

Is falsified history covered by 'freedom of expression'?

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
114
CAIR Mian >>Aurangzeb had 148 Hindu high officials in his court. (Sharma: Mughal History). We could have appreciated Gautier as a faithful historian if he had an exhibit depicting this fact. Alas, he was serving His Master’s viz., the Sangh Parivar’s sentiments.

Mian , you are missing the point as usual. Typical CAIR jihadi obfuscation tactics.

Did you ask Romila Thapar or Irfan habib to also consider the Hindus version of history , when they released their virulently anti hindu versions of history?

Gautier has a much right as romila to project his version of history , even assuming it is one sided and not balanced.

The issue here is freedom of exprerssion . Gautiers objectivity or lack of it is not the issue.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
113
"Bajrangis would be better off on saffron sites like Bharatrakshak.com, where they can nurse their (perceived ones)wounds inflicted upon by the Muslims."

Bharat Rakshak Site is "Bharat Rakshak
Consortium of Indian Defence Websites"

www.bharat-rakshak.com

The forum has nothing to do with Bajrangies or ecularists etc.

Some times the forum criticises Pakie TERROR -BUT THAT CAN'T BE CAUSE OF YOUR OUTBURST .

MEANWHILE SERF THE LINK OF BHARATRAKSHAK GIVEN BY ME and find youself .

MR.IDLI DOSA .
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
112
Vinod,

>> Ever since the beginning of Islam and till today nothing has changed as it forbids any change.

Wrong! Read that article on Sharia from the New York Times.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
111
Vinod,

>> Are you misusing this mainly Hindu forum to inform your Muslim posters about the sharia laws.

I said it should be of interest to Muslim readers, but you can read it too if you are interested. It is from the New York Times, not from a Muslim newspaper. And it is written by a Jewish professor of law at Harvard University.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
110
WHY SHARIAH?

This rather longish article should be of interest to Muslim readers.


http://www.nytimes.com/...iah-t.html?ref=magazine


Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 17, 2008 12:00 AM
109
Francois Gautier's Aurangzeb Exhibition.

Prof. M.H. Jawahirullah, President of Tamilnadu Muslim Munnetra Kazhagam (TMMK) strongly condemns Francois Gautier for his lies, innuendos and calumnies regarding his exhibition held at Chennai.

Gautier alleges that the Prince of Arcot Nawab Abdul Ali sent a group of goons from TMMK to disturb the exhibition. He also describes TMMK volunteers as the Prince’s ‘henchmen’. This is his sheer imagination and fantasy and portrays his sick mind. The Prince of Arcot neither contacted us regarding the virulent exhibition of Gautier nor would we send our volunteers at the beck and call of the Nawab.

There is a Tamil proverb which says that a single rice is enough to judge the quality of a pot full of cooked rice. Similarly, Gautier’s allegation against the Nawab and TMMK is enough to judge his sincerity and honesty in reporting history. When Gautier cannot report a contemporary event faithfully and truthfully one can very easily judge the veracity of his version of Mughal history depicted in his exhibition.

A galaxy of Hindu historians whose faithfulness is not stained as that of Gautier have strongly refuted the version of Mughal history as depicted by the likes of Gautier. The famous historian Babu Nagendranath Banerjee rejected the accusation of forced conversion of Hindus by Muslim rulers by stating that if that was their intention then in India today there would not be nearly four times as many Hindus as compared to Muslims, despite the fact that Muslims had ruled for nearly a thousand years. Banerjee challenged the Hindu hypothesis that Aurangzeb was anti-Hindu by reasoning that if the latter were truly guilty of such bigotry, how could he appoint a Hindu as his military commander-in-chief? Surely, he could have afforded to appoint a competent Muslim general in that position. Banerjee further stated: “No one should accuse Aurangzeb of being communal minded. In his administration, the state policy was formulated by Hindus. Two Hindus held the highest position in the State Treasury. Some prejudiced Muslims even questioned the merit of his decision to appoint non-Muslims to such high offices. The Emperor refuted that by stating that he had been following the dictates of the Shariah (Islamic Law) which demands appointing right persons in right positions.”

Aurangzeb had 148 Hindu high officials in his court. (Sharma: Mughal History). We could have appreciated Gautier as a faithful historian if he had an exhibit depicting this fact. Alas, he was serving His Master’s viz., the Sangh Parivar’s sentiments.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 16, 2008 12:00 AM
108
Thomamid/Bagai,

>> A straight forward question deserves a straight forward reply.

Why would a hate peddler ask a straight forward question when his sole interst is in peddling hate and lies? Moreover you are too much of a bore for me to spend my time with.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 16, 2008 12:00 AM
107
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> Muslims should modernise, become progressive, but that does not seem to be Faruki,s aganda.


So your idiotic posts have started for the day.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 16, 2008 12:00 AM
106
Yet another falsehood from the mind of MR. THOMASMID. On a weighted average basis the Muslim Population has been growing atabout Two point something Per Cent. It is no where near the 4 to 5% annually.



Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 16, 2008 12:00 AM
105
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> Instead you are obsessed with problem of muslimsin Palestine, Bosnia, Chechniya, Gujerat, India,and all over the non muslim world.

You are the one obsessed with your anti-Muslim hate. I want Muslims to modernize but consider the zionist/sanghi hate campaign as likely to retard that progress. Even if that is not so, it is always good to fight hate.

>> Would united India with 500 million and 800 plus nonmuslims have worked.

Hasn't partition produced more polarization? And do you get those figures from Bodepudi's book of lies?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 16, 2008 12:00 AM
104
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> But you it seem to be haveing problems in USA.

That is wishful thinking on your part! By the way how many stupid posts are you going to write today in order to vent your hatefulness?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 15, 2008 12:00 AM
103
That is politics, MR. A. K. GHAI. Dagabaz?.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 15, 2008 12:00 AM
102
Same Mushaid who was Infromation Minister of Sherif,was arrested by Mush subsequently stabbed Nawaz Mian and joined Mush -that DAGABAZ you are talking about Chacha ?
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Mar 15, 2008 12:00 AM
101
In its basic form, MR. VINOD. this is what Jihad means.

Jihad (Arabic: جهاد‎ IPA: [ ʤi'haːd]), which means "strive" or "struggle", in Arabic,



Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 15, 2008 12:00 AM
100
Vinod,

>> The Jehadi Muslims have as a tradition seen to it that they dont believe in hate speeches or trust the media to take up their cause.

You mean only jihadi Hindus make hate speeches and use the media for their nefarious cause.

>> Only a coward or one who is born out of an illegitimate parentage who always feels a lack of identity comes up with fake ID.

Are you suggesting that Soma/Bodepudi, Thomasmid/Bagai, Estee/Thiagan and Namo/Nandu are cowards or born out of illegal parentages?

>> The word Jihad and Jihadi are sacred and holy for the Muslims.

They have come to mean fanaticism and fanatic, so they can be aptly applied to the above named four.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 15, 2008 12:00 AM
99
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> Given the mindset of Faruki and his mates, there is no possibility of a accord between muslims and nonmuslims.

Is it your mindset or my mindset that is a problem? You are the one with a hate agenda, remember?

>> The leader of the socialist party(not a right wing party) after being proimmigrant for a long time said.

Why don't you post a link so that we can discuss it?

It is amazing how you can repeat the same hate loaded drivel day after day, month after month, and year after year. Don't you ever think that you have already said this a hundred times before? And all that you are saying is, "Muslims are bad! Muslims are bad! Muslims are bad!" If you were saying something uplifting that was worth repetition, that would be different. You are just a despicable bigot whose main goal in life is to spread hate.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
98
SOMA's list of things Moslems need to do, is very sensible and rational. Only rabid fanatics, and those that support them, would oppose those suggestions.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
97
Soma/Bodepudi,

>> For 1350 years the West has grossly misunderstood Islam.

They did not learn anything about Islam during the two bloody crusades they inflicted on Palestine, nor did they learn anything from hundreds of years of rule over Morocoo, Algeria, Sudan, Palestine, India, Malaya and Indonesia. They had to wait for hate peddling bigots like you to come along and explain Islam to them!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
96
What do the Secular Fanatics like David Cole, Arundhati Roy, Noam Chomsky, et al., know about Islam?

Thay know. David knows. How do they know? Oh, they just know. They don't have to tell us. As for Snouck Hurgronje, Henri Lammens, Arthur Jeffery, and hundreds of other Western scholars of Islam -- they didn't know. It was only when Arab money came along, to pay for the room and board of the likes of John Esposito, that the Western world finally began to understand Islam. Up to then, no one -- not Hume, not Spinoza, not John Wesley, not John Quincy Adams, not Tocqueville, not Churchill, not Malraux, not anyone in the Western world, understood Islam. For 1350 years the West has grossly misunderstood Islam. Only in the last several decades has the sheer wonderfulness of Islam -- on this George Bush and David Cole, et al., can agree, can spout their soothing sentiments to each other -- become apparent all over the Western world.

And the stories in the world's press -- from the southern Sudan or southern Thailand, from the travails of Christians in Egypt, or northern Nigeria, or Iraq, or Lebanon, or the punishments meted out to apostates in Afghanistan or Iran or Kuwait, or the ways in which Hindus (and Christians) are treated in Pakistan and Bangladesh -- all that confirms, every day in every way, that David Cole has it right, and there is no reason for alarm. Don't listen to Ibn Warraq, or Ayaan Hirsi Ali, or Wafa Sultan, or a hundred other apostates who were born, and raised within, societies suffused with Islam. Listen to David Cole, Arundhati, Noam Chomsky and other secular fanatics.

They don't know and don't care. Hindus have to defend themselves.

Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
95
Soma/Bodepudi,

>> Hindus-Buddhists were practising peace and harmony for over Millennia.

Largely true. That's why I say that you, a hate peddler who have actually advocated murder and genocide in this very forum, should not call yourself Hindu or Buddhist.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
94
Arun,

>> a true blue South Asian believes, only change needed is in the "other".

How true!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
93
"For peace, hate pracharaks like you must be taught tolerance, live and let live principles" GHULAM FARUKI

Hindus-Buddhists were practising peace and harmony for over Millennia. It's Islam that genocidally killed a peaceful people, destroyed the Hindu temples in thousands and decimated the entire Buddhist civilization from North India, with Fire and Sword. Hindus will and can forgive Islamic brutality provided Islam vacates the occupied lands and controls its population growth.

It's Ghulam-like bigots who were freeding the Mullah-terrorist frenzy, for centuries, obstructing reform and radical revision in the Islamic texts and tenets and reform in their behavior towards the Infidel Hindus

Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
92
I do not lie, MR. SREEJITH


What if I provide the link to your earlier statement where you said India will take 10 years to catch up with pakistan in per capita income?
sreejith
bangalore, india
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
91
Joseph

You didn't aswer my question.

What if I provide the link to your earlier statement where you said India will take 10 years to catch up with pakistan in per capita income?
sreejith
bangalore, india
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
90
Joseph .... "I am convinced that to change South Asia for the better, we have just to change the "Indian Mindset". Once that is done, everything else will fall in to place. It is with this purpose that I am here. If at times, I am aggressive, it is only because my attempt at improving people is met with derision, denigration and dislike."

Well one thing is for sure .... you are a true blue South Asian - because a true blue South Asian believes, only change needed is in the "other" and BTW, on top of that I can and am the only one who can help the "other" improve.

The game of onemanupship and the "full of self" egos is quite amusing. But it is brittle and fragile too ... "you are so dumb that you don't want my help and because of you I get aggressive".

Sirji, aap tho genius (geniass) ho - ya phir incorrigble ho.
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
89
“Am convinced that to change South Asia for the better, we have just to change the "Indian Mindset". Once that is done, everything else will fall in to place. It is with this purpose that I am here.”

Hey you guys out there!! Add one more item on khujli chacha’s list of Mission!! All this while it was ‘Truth’ and ‘GDP’, now its ‘Indian MindSet’!!!

Great chacha. Please continue in your mission, I wish you good luck!!

BTE, how about cleaning the shit in ur own backyard first??
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
88
Soma/Bodepudi,

>> For Peace, Muslims should follow .....

For peace, hate pracharaks like you must be taught tolerance, live and let live principles, cessation of preaching discord, and cessation of revisionism in history.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
87
Am I a freaking nutcase according to your typically Indian arrogant judgement, MR. AJIT TENDULKAR, because I highlight that which is unpalatable to the Indian mind?.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
86
>>She has not spoken out for all underdogs. Nobody has or can.

Yes, Arundhati is not obligated to speak on behalf of all underdogs, just as no one else is. However, everyone who habitually speaks on a narrow range of issues, is identified such. So, Mayawati, Paswan, Meira Kumari, Prakash Ambedkar etc. are known as Dalit activists. Lalu and Mulayam are known to speak on behalf of Yadavs, Karuna on behalf of Dravidians etc. It's perfectly legitimate to label Arundhati as an activist regarding the few issues she raises.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
85
All the points that you have listed come under the Category of "Wishful Thinking, MR. SOMA.

If you can do anything, it is in the Area of preventing Hindus from converting to Islam. Everything else is beyond you.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
84
For Peace, Muslims should follow:

1. Focus their indignation on Muslims committing violent acts in the name of Islam, not on non-Muslims reporting on those acts.
2. Renounce definitively not just "terrorism," but any intention to replace the U.S. Constitution (or the constitutions of any non-Muslim state) with Sharia even by peaceful means.
3. Teach Muslims the imperative of coexisting peacefully as equals with non-Muslims on an indefinite basis.
4. Begin comprehensive international programs in mosques all over the world to teach against the ideas of violent jihad and Islamic supremacism.
5. Actively work with Western law enforcement officials to identify and apprehend jihadists within Western Muslim communities.
6. One-child norm among Muslims in India until the Muslim-Hindu ratio reverts to the level as in 1947

7. Banning all loud speakers in Mosques and gradually converting ALL Mosques into inter-faith peace & GENDER EQUALITY centers

Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
83
Joseph, you are a freaking nutcase!
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
82
I take an Holistic Approach to all matters, MR. SREEJITH.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
81
You provoke out of bloody-mindednees, MR. SREEJITH as do others of your ilk. Please do not give it an unnatural gloss.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 14, 2008 12:00 AM
80
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> Your Islamic project is a total flop, and this has made you mad and angry.

What an idiot! The guy has nothing to say, so he just sits there and spews rubbish.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
79
What garb do the Neo-Cons dress in, MR. THOMASMID?.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
78
Soma/Bodepudi,

>> How does David Cole know that Muslims "pose no threat"? Has he carefully studied the texts and tenets of Islam?

Only the malcious hate pracharaks like you will scan the "texts" to find fuel for your hate mill! No such search lights to be directed at the texts of other religions, right Mr.Goebbels?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
77
>> How is Gautier ‘mala fides’ and a hate propagandist when he is stating the obvious?

Read the following excellent post and the article linked by it :

Though I am all for freedom of expression and believe that the mentioned exhibition shouldn't have been closed.The motives of Mr Gautier are suspect as he seems to have started a cottage industry out of islam bashing. As he [and also Mr Raman] do not renounce other terrorist organisations such as Bajrang Dal,LTTE AND ULFA with same enthusiasm their motives are questionable.
As far as Aurangzeb and his legacy are concerned , the picture portrayed by Mr Raman is far from balanced, and he falls to the same trap that he accuses the pakistanu historians of, that is being biased. Here are some excerpts from his sketch on UCLA website.
Of the popular representation of Aurangzeb as a ferocious destroyer of Hindu temples and idols? Hindu temples in the Deccan were seldom destroyed, notwithstanding Aurangzeb's extensive military campaigns in that area. True, in north India, some Hindu temples were undoubtedly torn down, but much work needs to be done to establish the precise circumstances under which these acts of destruction took place. The famed Keshava Rai temple in Mathura was one such temple, but here Aurangzeb seems to have been motivated by a policy of reprisal, since the Jats in the region had risen in revolt. Like his predecessors, Aurangzeb continued to confer land grants (jagirs) upon Hindu temples, such as the Someshwar Nath Mahadev temple in Allahabad, Jangum Badi Shiva temple in Banaras, and Umanand temple in Gauhati, and if one put this down merely to expediency, then why cannot one view the destruction of temples as a matter of expediency as well, rather than as a matter of deliberate state policy? Moreover, recent historical work has shown that the number of Hindus employed as mansabdars, or as senior court officials and provincial administrators, under Aurangzeb's reign rose from 24.5% in the time of his father Shah Jahan to 33% in the fourth decade of his own rule. One has the inescapable feeling that then, as now, the word 'fanaticism' comes rather too easily to one's lips to characterize the actions of people acting, or claiming to act, under the name of Islam. It is also notable that as a firm Sunni, Aurangzeb dealt as firmly with the Shia kingdoms of Bijapur and Golconda as he did with the Hindus or Muslims.



http://www.sscnet.ucla....ry/Mughals/Aurang2.html


ASIF SULTAN
SHREVEPORT USA
01:26:44PM (IST)
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
76
I have just drafted an EMail to Mr. Cowasjee which I may delay sending in line with your advice not to get after him, MR. THOMASMID. I may send it, the next time he gets my goat (I love that pun). The EMail says.

Dear Mr. Cowasjee,
I understand you once described the Pakistani people as 160 million goats. I trust you are honest enough to include yourself in that number.

Yours sincerely,

Joseph Michael Pereira.

P. S. If I can locate the EMail, I shot off to our Pope when he quoted an obscure ruler to denigrate Islam, I shall post it here.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
75
I live and communicate in a real world. Not in the world of make believe and wishful thinking. Mr. Cowasjee lives in both according to his whim of the day. He takes police protection from the very police he criticises.

In my way of thinking, every Religion, and people for that matter, has followers at the fringes on the right and on the left.

In the case of Muslims, the fringe is taken to represent the whole or atleast the most of it. For me this smacks of prejudice and bias and only exacerbates the needless divide.

For all his conservatism and bias Pope Benedict has, MR. THOMASMID, realised that you can not go about Reforming Islam or Understanding Muslims in the manner of Mr. George W. Bush and Mr. Ehud Olmert. He has been advised to initiate Dialogue. I may have had a miniscule role in this approach.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
74
To Arundhati Roy , Anand, Rajesh and others:

David Cole//"When you treat people from Muslim countries as suspect merely because they come from Muslim countries, you are very likely to alienate the people here and abroad we need to be working with if we're going to get helpful information on what the real threats are"

And the very idea that, in order not to offend Muslims elsewhere, described by David Cole as "the very people we need to be working with" (an assertion that needs to be examined, to see if that quite describes the situation), we cannot keep new immigrants from swelling Muslim ranks in the Western world, which ranks have already created a situation that is far more unpleasant, expensive (the costs of monitoring that population, those mosques, those madrasas, those "civil rights groups" such as sinister CAIR), and physically dangerous than it would be without a large-scale Muslim presence.

David Cole presumes. He knows what Islam is all about, and why its adherents are not a threat. He knows that all this talk about the uncompromising division of the world between Believers, to whom all loyalty is owed by fellow members of the Umma, and Infidels, with whom those Believers are instructed they must be in a state of permanent war, though not necessarily open warfare, is simply so much nonsense.

David Cole knows. How does he know? He doesn't have to tell us!

And the stories in the world's press -- from the southern Sudan or southern Thailand, from the travails of Christians in Egypt, or northern Nigeria, or Iraq, or Lebanon, or the punishments meted out to apostates in Afghanistan or Iran or Kuwait, or the ways in which Hindus (and Christians) are treated in Pakistan and Bangladesh -- all that confirms, every day in every way, that David Cole has it right, and there is no reason for alarm. Don't listen to Ibn Warraq, or Ayaan Hirsi Ali, or Wafa Sultan, or a hundred other apostates who were born, and raised within, societies suffused with Islam. Listen to David Cole. He knows! Arundhati Roy knows. And Rajesh, Anand, et al?

How can Hindus EVER trust these fools?

Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
73
"Buddhism was physically wiped out by the Islamic fanatics" Soma

"Wrong. Buddhism was wiped out by Hindu revivalists. Read Adi Sankaracharya who established Hindu temples, including Puri and other 4 Dhams, on ruins of Buddhist monastery." Rajesh

Please study the history of Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam in India, carefully. Buddha's disciples were mostly Brahmin by birth and Buddha went beyond social, economic and other Samsaric issues. That's why many Brahmin mothers voluntarily entered into Buddhism-with sons, daughters and husbands- and many ther Brahmin scholars who translated Buddha Vachana from Magadhi-Pali into Sanskrit, Tibetan, Chinese, Persian and Central Asian languages and dialects. Long before Fa Hien and Houen Thsang, many Brahmin scholars traveled far and wide, with great risk to their life and limb, to teach and propagate Buddhism.

Sankaracharya dis not handle skillfully his diasagreements with Buddhist PRACTICE-not with Buddha Vachana. That's why one can see many contradictions in Shankara's arguments. Shankara never ordered to rage the Buddhist Temples or the Ashoks Stupas nor ecer led genocidal, offensive wars against Buddhists. But this debate belongs to a TOTALLY different platform

Islam is an imperialist ideology that occupied Hindu-Buddhist lands and killed millions, most savagely-as at Nalanda, Somanathapuri, Dwaraka, Ayodhya and a million other places.

Your lack of diligence and intellectal dishonesty is quite clear and understandable-but is no substitute for ANY argument, much less based on reason and facts.

Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
72
Kiran, whatever the degree of marginalisation of Buddhism in India before the Moslem conquests- a marginalisation not caused by persecution and all that goes with it- the Islamic destruction of Buddhist universities at Nalanda, Vikramasila, Odantapuri and elsewhere, is beyond question.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
71
Joseph says,
“If at times, I am aggressive, it is only because my attempt at improving people is met with derision, denigration and dislike”

Do we dislike you? At least I don’t. Don’t give too much importance to yourself
We do provoke you. That’s because you provide better entertainment when provoked
Please do stay on this forum.
sreejith
bangalore, india
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
70
I am convinced that to change South Asia for the better, we have just to change the "Indian Mindset"

There is an easy way out. Just change your mindset. Everything else will fall in place
sreejith
bangalore, india
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
69
David Cole //"When you treat people from Muslim countries as suspect merely because they come from Muslim countries, you are very likely to alienate the people here and abroad we need to be working with if we're going to get helpful information on what the real threats are."


How does David Cole know that Muslims "pose no threat"? Has he carefully studied the texts and tenets of Islam? Has he read and reread, and reread again, those texts, with appropriate commentaries -- not the work of sly apologists, but the straightforward commentaries by Muslims themselves, meant for Muslim audiences, or those by non-apologists in the West? Has he read the Qur'an, the Hadith (at least a few hundred of those deemed most authentic), and the Sira at all? Has he studied the history of Islamic conquest and subjugation of non-Muslim peoples? Does he fully grasp how Islam is, unlike those other faiths we call religion, a Total System, a politics as well as a "religion"?

What entitles David Cole to dismiss the idea that those who carry important elements of that Total System in their mental baggage are, until it can be carefully demonstrated on an individual basis, not permanent security risks to non-Muslims everywhere? The Shari'a flatly contradicts the most important individual rights guaranteed by the American Constitution. Would Cole wish to deny it? Would he wish to insist that those who call themselves Muslims don't really believe in the tenets of Islam? How could he do that? And why should we bet our national and individual security on his, David Cole's, notion of Islam -- a very hazy notion"
Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
68
No, no, no, no, no, no, MR. KIRAN BAGACHI.

I go to Church regularly. I tuition at the Don Bosco Home. I read. I write. I watch T. V. I blog. I chat. I research. I provide consultancy. I cook. I play cards.

When I am missing from this Forum, I am doing any one of the things listed above. Like I was cooking till just now.

I think and write about South Asia of which India is the Principal Part. I am convinced that to change South Asia for the better, we have just to change the "Indian Mindset". Once that is done, everything else will fall in to place. It is with this purpose that I am here.

If at times, I am aggressive, it is only because my attempt at improving people is met with derision, denigration and dislike.

Your response and that of most others in this Forum reflect the Three Dees above. In response, let me add a Fourth Dee. I am never deterred.


Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
67
Khujli chacha, I am not THAT old to remember Gope. However, since he is from your era, were you trying to imitate him all this while? I didnt know...

"To distinguish the Truth from this "Motley Crowd"...biased, prejudiced, hate-filled and blinkered..."

Like you whose favourite entertainment and timepass in this old age is to look for 'TRUTH' about India and paste it on various sites.

Anyway, since all of us enjoy your posts emmencely, please remain here...
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
66
Though I am all for freedom of expression and believe that the mentioned exhibition shouldn't have been closed.The motives of Mr Gautier are suspect as he seems to have started a cottage industry out of islam bashing. As he [and also Mr Raman] do not renounce other terrorist organisations such as Bajrang Dal,LTTE AND ULFA with same enthusiasm their motives are questionable.
As far as Aurangzeb and his legacy are concerned , the picture portrayed by Mr Raman is far from balanced, and he falls to the same trap that he accuses the pakistanu historians of, that is being biased. Here are some excerpts from his sketch on UCLA website.
Of the popular representation of Aurangzeb as a ferocious destroyer of Hindu temples and idols? Hindu temples in the Deccan were seldom destroyed, notwithstanding Aurangzeb's extensive military campaigns in that area. True, in north India, some Hindu temples were undoubtedly torn down, but much work needs to be done to establish the precise circumstances under which these acts of destruction took place. The famed Keshava Rai temple in Mathura was one such temple, but here Aurangzeb seems to have been motivated by a policy of reprisal, since the Jats in the region had risen in revolt. Like his predecessors, Aurangzeb continued to confer land grants (jagirs) upon Hindu temples, such as the Someshwar Nath Mahadev temple in Allahabad, Jangum Badi Shiva temple in Banaras, and Umanand temple in Gauhati, and if one put this down merely to expediency, then why cannot one view the destruction of temples as a matter of expediency as well, rather than as a matter of deliberate state policy? Moreover, recent historical work has shown that the number of Hindus employed as mansabdars, or as senior court officials and provincial administrators, under Aurangzeb's reign rose from 24.5% in the time of his father Shah Jahan to 33% in the fourth decade of his own rule. One has the inescapable feeling that then, as now, the word 'fanaticism' comes rather too easily to one's lips to characterize the actions of people acting, or claiming to act, under the name of Islam. It is also notable that as a firm Sunni, Aurangzeb dealt as firmly with the Shia kingdoms of Bijapur and Golconda as he did with the Hindus or Muslims.


http://www.sscnet.ucla....ry/Mughals/Aurang2.html
asif sultan
shreveport, usa
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
65
How you twist, MR. KIRAN BAGACHI.

I have never said that "Cut And Paste" is the Truth, per se. What is meant is that one can search for or distil the Truth from 10 Billion entries on the Internet and "Cut And Paste" such references in this Forum to inform and educate.

However, given the "closed minds" of so many, my efforts are seen to provide comic relief. Comic relief was provided by Gope in my day. Remember him?.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
64
2 edits in my previous mail:
...if YOU think cut-paste is truth...
...I see YOU on this forum only as a comic relief...
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
63
Oh, MR. KIRAN BAGACHI, I may be an old fool but I never did say that only the Truth resides on the Internet. The Internet is a "Broad Spectrum" Depository which covers most Facets of Human Thought and Endeavour.

To distinguish the Truth from this "Motley Crowd" one needs and open mind and not one that is biased, prejudiced, hate-filled and blinkered like so many in this Forum.



Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
62
DR. for MR. RAJ BODEPUDI.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
61
MR. SOMA, who apparently is a clone of MR. RAJ BODEPUDI, what do have to say about my "Cut And Paste", which suggests that Buddhism was already marginalised within India much before Mohammad Bin Qasim entered Sindh?.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
60
MR. SOMA, who apparently is a clone of MR. RAJ BODEPUDI, what do have to say about my "Cut And Paste", which suggests that Buddhism was already marginalised within India much before Mohammad Bin Qasim entered Sindh?.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
59
"Long Live "Cut And Paste. Long Live The Truth."

Khujli chacha, if think cut-paste is truth, then i really wonder how many young fools survive to be old fools.

There is truth galore on internet that i can copy-paste too but as a policy, i discuss serious issues only with serious ppl. i see on this forum only as a comic relief.

BTW, have you tried BinaKhaj malham for ur itch?? Heard its quite good...
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
58
DECLINE AND FALL OF BUDDHISM
(A tragedy in Ancient India)




----------------------------------
----------------------------------------------

Chapter 1

----------------------------------------------
----------------------------------
INTRODUCTION

Depicting Buddha as Hindu

Read On.


http://www.ambedkar.org/books/dob2.htm



You can resort to "Cherry-Picking, as this Chapter gives many points of view. However, hard you may try, Brahmanism is in the picture.

MR. KIRAN
BAGACHI
-----------------




R>Long Live the Internet.
Long Live "Cut And Paste".

Long Live The Truth.




Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
57
Why did Buddhism not survive in India!

Enter Shankaracharya-
Shankaracharya was a vedic leader.At the age of 12 ,he had completed his education(complete mastery over the hindu scriptures that was offered to him).He decided to become a monk(sanyasi) and lead a complete life of celibacy by that time.This was sometime in the 8 century ad.Walking all the way from southern tip of India,he invited great scholars to debate,and defeated them one by one.He not only argued with the buddhists,but also
with the other hindu sects,and one by one converted them into his philosophy.How was it that people from so many divergent sects were able to accept him?The answer lay in his philosophy.
These were the salient features of his philosphy.
1.There is one and only one god.
2.What is not god does not exist.
3.Since you exist,you have to be god.Only you do not know that this is the case.Because you have let yourself be filled with illusion.
4.The classical situation is the one feeling that it is many,and evolving a whole set of imagination with regard to the same.
5.The one is pure consciousness and has no form or attribute.But in it's projection on a physical illusionary plane ,there is form.Thus there is a form is merely a projection.The god with out attribute is called the Nirguna brahman.
The god with attribute is merely a projection,and thus saguna brahman.
The world is real only as long as your imagination wanders on forms and shapes.
6.He went a step further away from buddhism and proclaimed that, it was not possible to understand one's true nature without worshipping god.Because one has to return the root to realize the truth.In the first stage a person has to worship,god as an individual.As time passes,he loves the god he worships,and feels that he is in a state of communion with him.He feels god responding to him.Then in the next stage he feels that he is in physical touch with him,Then he feels he is part of him.And finally he realizes that,there is nothing to be a part of,at that stage,all forms and shapes have dissappeared.He alone is left,along with his imagination,which he truly recognizes to be merely an imagination.

With this kind of philosophy shankaracharya laid his attack.he proclaimed that people could choose any form of worship bestowed with positive attributes.
He was able to convert to his philosphy every kind of hindu philosopher of his time.He wrote innumerable works on may of the gods woshipped by the masses.In his poems,he wrote why each god was the best.So the followers of shiva and vishnu ,both found his philosophy acceptable.In this way,having brought all the quarrelling philosophers to theism,he made atheism irrelevant in India.With that Buddhism had finally been reduced to the margins.
All this he did,in a young life span of 32 years.That was no mean achievement considering the size of India,at that time from Peshawar to Assam,from kashmir to kanyakumari,all this only with the power of his arguments,which he used direcly deducing from the vedanta and upanishads.
A few centuries after his death,there were new philosophies which emerged in hinduism,which tried to disprove his philosophy.They acquired their own followers(usually these groups got confined to the place of birth of the founder),but they have never been able to dislodge his philosophy and he still remains as one of the most revered philosopher sage of
hinduism.

---------------------------------
-------------------

MR. KIRAN BAGACHI
-----------------



Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
56
GF:
Gautier clones are a dime a dozen…
Hirsi Ali and Wafa Sultan are apostates…
Buddhism was not wiped out by the Islamic fanatics but by Hindu Brahmins…
Thank god you admitted that you are not a liberal (at last!), so all this is expected of you now. You have your head buried firmly in the sand, like Muslims all over the world, except for occasions when you take it out to call all others ‘liar’, ‘bigots’, ‘hate mongers’, and ‘idiots’.
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
55
Soma/Bodepudi,

>> Buddhism Vs Islamic Sword & Fire.

Gautier clones are a dime a dozen, and rabid hate pracharaks like you are bound to find them!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
54
Buddhism Vs Islamic Sword & Fire


http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/20688

Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
53
Soma/Bodepudi,

>> Buddhism was physically wiped out by the Islamic fanatics.

You have already been proved to be a liar on this point. But being the hate propagandist that you are, you come back with it again. You are truly shameless.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
52
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> I know Irfan Hussain. He has told me that he is
an agnostic.

On the basis of that alleged statement you say he has dropped Islam!!!

>> Its all over the Danish newspapers.

No links. Even if true, you would still habitually exaggerate.

>> Your frequent statements asking for reforming Islam are a fraud.

What else can we expect a hate monger and a rabid Islamophobe like you to say?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
51
Vinod,

>> 'We good' necessarily means all Indians including the Indian Muslims as good and 'they bad'also necessarily means all anti nationals including those Hindus and the Muslim Indians.What do you say.

Yes, but that's not how Varun sees it.

>> There is a veiled threat under your statement which you often wont forget to make as"150 million strong Muslims".you need remind it often.

I remind the hate propagandists that generating hatred against 150 million of their own compatriots is evil. For such a message, how often is "often"?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
50
J,

>> The notable "underdog" for whom she has spoken often is terrorist Afzal guru.

She spoke up for Gillani, who was released. She and several lawyers have raised technical issues with Afzal's trial, although I do not agree with them. She has also spoken up for the adivasis affected by the Narmada project. It is good to have voices like hers in India however much they may anger us.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 13, 2008 12:00 AM
49
soma,

"looks like wafa sultan is like "arundhati roy". only wafa is talking against horrendous muslim attrocities hence resident jihadi faruki is foul mouthing us. i challenge OUTLOOK to publish wafa's views (come out of your rat hole joker mehta)" Namo

Namo:

Wafa, Hirsi and others are writing ONLY facts of Islam which these bigots can not face upto. It's Political Islam that Wafa and Hirsi Ali so powerfully point out, that has created the endemic terror through imperalist conquests (wrt India, espeially)and unchecked Muslim population growth.

On Wafa Sultan, Political Islam, Arundhati & Buddhism

Wafa Sultan is altogether different from Arundhati. Arundhati is an anti-American ideologue, fiercely anti-Hindu and pro-Jihadi. Wafa sees distinction between the right and obligation of a culture/civilization to survive(Jews in Israel) and the civil liberties of Palestininans. Arundhati, on the other hand, never wrote a single piece on Islamic genocides in India and on the nature of Political Islam-ie., Islamic imperialism. Roy's Scholarship is biased and deeply flawed-It's pro-jihadi and in service of forming the Islamic Republic of India.

Buddhism & Islamic genocides:

Buddhism was physically wiped out by the Islamic fanatics-soon after the 1199 Nalanda massacres. The entire Buddhist civilization, culture and freedoms were genocidally cleansed out from Pakistan, Afganistan and Central Asia, besides Northern India.

Japanese military during the Second WW, Pol Pots and the current Burmese military thugs are anti-Buddhist. What was Buddhist was the resistance to the Burmese fascist Junta-tens of thousands of peaceful marchers were so inspiring.

Sri Lankan conflict is not religious, it's ethnic

Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
48
"The notable "underdog" for whom she has spoken often is terrorist Afzal guru. "

More than that. She went to the extent of calling the parliament attack an inside job. She is very nutty--a right heir to Noam Chomsky.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
47
>>Arundhati has spoken out on behalf of the weak and the exploited, what one may call the underdogs.

I don't think Jihadis qualify as "weak" or "underdogs".

>>She has not spoken out for all underdogs. Nobody has or can.

The notable "underdog" for whom she has spoken often is terrorist Afzal guru.
J
Bangalore, India
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
46
Soma/Bodepudi,

>> Roy's Scholarship is biased and deeply flawed-It's pro-jihadi and in service and support of forming the Islamic Republic of India.

That is rubbish. Arundhati has spoken out on behalf of the weak and the exploited, what one may call the underdogs. She has not spoken out for all underdogs. Nobody has or can.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
45
soma,

"looks like wafa sultan is like "arundhati roy". only wafa is talking against horrendous muslim attrocities hence resident jihadi faruki is foul mouthing us. i challenge OUTLOOK to publish wafa's views (come out of your rat hole joker mehta)" Namo

Wafa Sultan is altogether different from Arundhati. Arundhati is an anti-American ideologue, fiercely anti-Hindu and pro-Jihadi. Wafa sees distinction between the right and obligation of a culture/civilization to survive(Jews in Israel) and the civil liberties of Palestininans. Arundhati, on the other hand, never wrote a single piece on Islamic genocides in India and on the nature of Political Islam-ie., Islamic Imperialism. Roy's Scholarship is biased and deeply flawed-It's pro-jihadi and in service and support of forming the Islamic Republic of India.

Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
44
Vijay, good post. But don't forget what was Aurangazeb's most heinous crime, in a long list of crimes- the death by torture of Sambuji, son of Shivaji. And for the suspicion Aurangazeb had that Sambhuji abused the founder of Islam- incidentally also for waging war on Aurangazeb. No, the tyrant can't be excused, even if he did 'repent' at the end.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
43
Soma/Bodepudi,

>> The same fate awaits what's left of India.

The hate propagandist is back with his morning sermon! I just can't imagine how someone from India, the home of 150 million Muslims, would spend all his waking hours trying to generate ill feelings towards Muslims. The guy has no shame, no morals, no scruples and no sense of decency.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
42
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> The Danish govt has given the freedom prize to Hirsi Ali. Sweden has given Swedish citizenship to Tasleema Nasreen.

They have made some contributions and some mistakes, unlike you who is solely motivated by hate and ill wishes.

>> Speaking against 150 million muslims is perfectly all right when they misbehave.

I was talking about Bodepudi's generating hate against the largest minority in our own country. When you change "generating hate against" to "speaking against", do you realize that you are lying? Don't you have any shame about lying repeatedly?

>> right in the USA muslims are criticised
round the clock.

Another lie! You are just hopeless!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
41
The "secular" fascists, for a change, study the 55+ Muslim countries and civil liberties there.Nearly ALL Minorities had been made extinct. The same fate awaits what's left of India. While Muslims focus on reforming their POLITICS of Religion, Hindus must focus on their Unity and social/spiritual catharsis-so the secular fanatics are defeated-in argument, in polls, and in fast founding the Hindu Rashtra

Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
40
J
Bangalore, India
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
39
Varun Shekhar

In keeping with the subject matter of this column by Raman, I posted what the general consensus is on the ascendency of Aurangzeb to the Mughal throne, his long rule and its consequences and after-effects on the socio-political-military configurations that were prevalent in the early 18th century India, when Europeans and their influence were mostly confined to coastal regions. This consensus obviously precludes the eulozisation that Auranzeb has earned in Pakistan along side with Ghaznavi, Ghauri and Abdali.

Historical controversies apart, Auranzeb himself is believed to have repented on his death bed his deeds and his role in crippling by and large the secular Mughal empire that Akbar succeeded in building in South Asia only after Chandragupta Maurya nearly 2000 years ago, that excelled in wealth, administration, military prowess, culture and arts compared to its contemporaries either in Europe or Asia, like for example, the Ottoman empire in Turkey, British queen Elizabeth I or the Spanish empire of Castile.

It is worth reminding here that Aurangzeb's policies and persecution not only antagonized his powerful allies, the Rajputs, but caused resurgencies to develop among Sikhs/Jats in Punjab and Marathas in Central India and Maharashtra. His dreaded "Jizya" tax on non-Muslims and persecution of Sikh guru Teg Bahadur who refused to convert to Islam is well documented.

It is also generally believed that after beheading his brother Dara Shikoh after the battle of Samogarh near Agra in 1658, he ordered Dara's severed head to be taken to ailing Shahjahan in Agra's fort.

It is also the common belief in Varanasi that on Auranzeb's orders the original Kashi Vishwanath temple built by Akbar's nobleman Rajah Todar Mal was demolished and mosque named after him was built on the ruins. The remnants of Todar Mal's temple can be seen near the Gyan Vapi Kup (well) which is believed to contain with in its depth the original Shiva Lingam. Later on facing resistence the temple was rebuilt (hence the claim the he was Hindus' best freind who built temples) but not on the same site, where now the Alamgiri mosque currently stands which is commonly known as Gyan Vapi masjid among locals.

Aurangzeb was a pious man in his personal life but an orthodox Muslim who cherished the ambition of converting India into a land of Islam. This philosophy was also pleaded by Shaikh Ahmad Sirhindi (1569-1624), leader of the Naqashbandi School, to counter the liberal policies of Akbar's reign.


Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
38
J
Bangalore, India
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
37
Kiran,

If fanatics like GF describe themselves as "liberals" among Muslims, then I'll put the figure at 1300 years.
J
Bangalore, India
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
36
"Here is that shameless hate merchant back again, holding a brief for two apostates"

By tour own admission, reforms in Islam will take another 100 years. When liberals like you call them apostates, this figure needs correction. I'll put it to 300.
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
35
In the Numbers Game that this World has become, more Muslims and Others despise Danes and Others, MR. THOMASMID.



Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
34
We ought to be called "Banisthan" given how easily we look at "Ban" as a solution. It is sad to see that the only way police can resolve "law and order" is by banning.

Given almost everyone has something to say/show which someone else doesn't like and is able to make it a "law & order" problem (mostly without seeing or reading it in the first place), sooner than later there won't be anything left worth seeing, writing and reading except homogenized, pasteurized, nice to everyone textbooks to be by-hearted, and repeated verbatim; or new-age "I am the best, I am great and goddamn it people love me" type self help/improvement books; and "still life/landscape" artwork. While we are at it we should also change to eating pure white "Wonderbread" (lots of air - fluff, no substance - nutrients, and even the pests don't touch it - forever shelf life) imported from the good old USofA.

See no controversy, hear no controversy, read no controversy and eat processed .... oh what a wonderful world it would be :-)

Freedom of speech is either an absolute fundamental right - or it is useless to talk about it and pretend we have it.

Grow up, Jaago sunewalon, "where the mind is without fear ...", or were the colonists right that we are "adult looking adoloscents".
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
33
Soma/Bodepudi,

>> We can learn about Islam ONLY from Wafa Suktan, Hirsi Ali et al

Here is that shameless hate merchant back again, holding a brief for two apostates? I just can't imagine how someone from India, the home of 150 million Muslims, would spend all his waking hours trying to generate ill feelings towards Muslims. The guy has no shame, no morals, no scruples and no sense of decency.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
32
Learen from Wafa Sultan and Hirsi Ali-not from Islamo Fascists, regarding Islam asa Politics

Wafa Sulatan on Islam as politics

We can learn about Islam ONLY from Wafa Suktan, Hirsi Ali et al-just as we had learned of the genocides and brutalities of former USSR from the communist defectors.

Since Islam IS politics, according to Hirsi Ali and Wafa Sulatan and others, discussing Koran should be encouraged by ALL. Mullahs must be trained and CERTIFIED in the political science of pluralism, before they are allowed to enter the Mosques.The Mosques should be designated as political and social institutes where besides Islam, other political parties must be represented
Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
31
History in the Service of Imperialism


by
Dr. B. N. Pande
Excerpted from Prof B. N. Pande's speech in the Indian Upper House of Parliament, the Rajya Sabha, made on 29 July 1977. At the time of the publication of this article in Impact International (1987), Dr Pande was Governor of the Indian state of Orrisa. Dr. Pande died in New Delhi on June 1, 1998.]Thus under a definite policy the Indian history text-books were so falsified and distorted as to give an impression that the medieval period of Indian history was full of atrocities committed by Muslim rulers on their Hindu subjects and the Hindus had to suffer terrible indignities under Islamic rule. There were no common factors in social, political or economic life.
Those who are not jaundiced, can refer to this article or book to know the reality.

sanaulla sharief
new york, United States
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
30
Like a good politician, Blair has found his scapegoats, including one cleric who looks like a made-for-tabloids leftover pirate from a Peter Pan movie. But if he wants to know the truth, which I do not believe he does, he would be better advised to watch television news instead of Friday sermons. The war in Iraq comes home to Britain every day on television.
The dangerous anger of those young men was not aimed against Britain, but against a government and its decision to go to war and occupy Iraq behind a gauze of lies. This does not make their violence acceptable. Killing innocents is a crime in any text (and specifically forbidden, incidentally, in the rules prescribed for a legitimate Jihad). But neither does their crime exonerate Blair from his crime. Blair is not paying for his sins. His country is.Source Deccan Chronicle Sept 04,2005
sanaulla sharief
new york, United States
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
29
Soma/Bodepudi,

>> We can learn about Islam ONLY from Wafa Suktan, Hirsi Ali.

As we can learn about Hinduism from Periyar or Karunanidhi? What a pestiferous idiot you are!

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
28
Wafa Sulatan on Islam as politics

We can learn about Islam ONLY from Wafa Suktan, Hirsi Ali et al-just as we had learned of the genocides and brutalities of former USSR from the communist defectors.

Since Islam IS politics, according to Hirsi Ali and Wafa Sulatan and others, discussing Koran should be encouraged by ALL. Mullahs must be trained and CERTIFIED in the political science of pluralism, before they are allowed to enter the Mosques.The Mosques should be designated as political and social institutes where besides Islam, other political parties must be represented

Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
27
Wafa Sultan facing an Islamo Fascist (similar to Ghulam)

Tal'at Rmeih: "Leave the Koran out of it. If you want to talk politics, go ahead."
Moderator: "I beg you to stick to politics. He talked only about politics."
Wafa Sultan: "Dr. Faysal, you know that you cannot separate Islam from politics. Islam is not a religion, but politics. You must let me express my views the way I want. When you called me, you didn't say I was not allowed to discuss Islam or the Koran. Islam says to them that they will 'kill or be killed', and here they are—killing and being killed. So what's wrong with that? They want to be martyred and to meet their black-eyed virgins, and Israel is merely helping them get what they want. What's wrong with that? If you want to change the course of events, you must reexamine your terrorist teachings, you must recognize and respect the right of the other to live, you must teach your children love, peace, coexistence, and productive work. When you do that, the world will respect you, will consider you in a better light, and will draw you in a better light."
Moderator: "Can you denounce the Zionist massacres in Gaza? That's a simple question. Do you have the courage to do so?"
Wafa Sultan: "I can denounce the Palestinians and the Israelis alike. Hamas chose this path, and you have to pay the price for your choices. When you decide you want peace – I am sure that Israel wants peace, but as long as you keep reciting those teachings, which are full of hatred, rancor, and terrorism, you will be unable to make peace with others. You must recognize and respect Israel's right to live. You must teach your children love, peace, and coexistence. Only then will there be peace."
[…]
Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
26
Soma/Bodepudi,

>> Wafa Sultan facing an Islamo Fascist (similar to Ghulam).

Your compulsive and incessant pasting of stuff from apostates like Wafa brands you as a malevolent hate propagandist, but it also reveals deep psychological problems. You are a nut almost as much as you are a villain.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 12, 2008 12:00 AM
25
Wafa Sultan facing an Islamo Fascist (similar to Ghulam)

Tal'at Rmeih: "Leave the Koran out of it. If you want to talk politics, go ahead."
Moderator: "I beg you to stick to politics. He talked only about politics."
Wafa Sultan: "Dr. Faysal, you know that you cannot separate Islam from politics. Islam is not a religion, but politics. You must let me express my views the way I want. When you called me, you didn't say I was not allowed to discuss Islam or the Koran. Islam says to them that they will 'kill or be killed', and here they are—killing and being killed. So what's wrong with that? They want to be martyred and to meet their black-eyed virgins, and Israel is merely helping them get what they want. What's wrong with that? If you want to change the course of events, you must reexamine your terrorist teachings, you must recognize and respect the right of the other to live, you must teach your children love, peace, coexistence, and productive work. When you do that, the world will respect you, will consider you in a better light, and will draw you in a better light."
Moderator: "Can you denounce the Zionist massacres in Gaza? That's a simple question. Do you have the courage to do so?"
Wafa Sultan: "I can denounce the Palestinians and the Israelis alike. Hamas chose this path, and you have to pay the price for your choices. When you decide you want peace – I am sure that Israel wants peace, but as long as you keep reciting those teachings, which are full of hatred, rancor, and terrorism, you will be unable to make peace with others. You must recognize and respect Israel's right to live. You must teach your children love, peace, and coexistence. Only then will there be peace."
[…]
Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
24
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> Why does not Faruki realise that he is not welcome or respected in this forum.

I realize that. That's why I am here. Where else would I get the Bagais and the Bodepudis to mock?

>> Can one imagine a Hindu gas bag writeing hateful letters regarding the muslim society in muslim countries.

Only an idiot or a liar would say that I am writing hateful letters about Hindu society. I do however ridicule the hate mongers in this forum. Only very small minds would think that the best way of upholding Hinduism is by trashing Islam.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
23
Ganesan,

>> Since I am a promoter of love, I reject the notion of Aurangzeb as an enemy of hindu.

Silly sarcasm aside, no one is questioning that he was a cruel anti-Hindu ruler. The question discussed here two months ago was whether he did some good things too, e.g. help build some temples, and try unsuccessfully, like Akbar, to abolish sati. The question now is whether he is the progenitor of Al Qaeda, a laughable proposition advanced by those who are mentally too lazy to consider the roots of Al Qaeda.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
22
[there is little point in saying that it is Sangh Parivar's invention ... give me one example that shwows that Aurangzeb was the best friend of Hindus ... with due respect ...]

Asking for a "single" counter example is always a bad idea...
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
21
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> All articles, books and views against Mullahs
views are naturally stupid.

They exist against all religions. Only stupid fools like you think any of them is the last word.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
20
Excellent observations, Thomasmid. It's incredible how much abuse some posters can inflict on Indians and India. In Pakistan or Saudi or Iran, how many Hindus, Jews or any non-Moslem are gassing away on blogs, forums, letters to the editor or any public space? And what would be their fate?
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
19
Vijay, that is succintly put about Aurangazeb. Yes, so many of these controversies get immersed in long-winded, loud mouthed arguing. Just show us that Aurangazeb was a tolerant ruler who respected different religions, viewed them as different paths to one goal and actively propagated that philosophy. Or just shut up.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
18
There is a lot of evidence to show that Aurangzeb's policies were anti-Hindu ... there is little point in saying that it is Sangh Parivar's invention ... give me one example that shwows that Aurangzeb was the best friend of Hindus ... with due respect ...
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
17
"He also antagonized the Hindu population by imposing discriminatory taxation "

There is absolutely no evidence that Aurangzeb ever targetted hindus. He was the most compassionate ruler hindus ever had. Anything contrary to this is the invention of the Sangh parivar who are hell bent on promoting hate.

Since I am a promoter of love, I reject the notion of Aurangzeb as an enemy of hindu. He was the best friend of hindus.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
16
read: "He also antagonized the Hindu population by imposing discriminatory taxation targeting non-Muslims thus beginning the end of the Mughal empire that was so assiduously built by Akbar by neutralising the Rajput hostility in seeking their friendship and inter-marriages.
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
15
Historians argue that if Aurangzeb had been half as wise and diplomatic as his great-grandfather, Akbar, the modern history of the sub-continent would have been entirely different, Europeans influence would probably have been confined to the coastal areas like China and a composite culture of Hinduism and Sufi Islam from the sub-continent would have eventually eclipsed the fundamentalist Wahabi Islamic traditions of Arabian peninsula.

The military triumph of Aurangzeb over his elder brother and rival, Dara Shikoh in 1658 was the turning point, they argue. Dara Shikoh, crown prince and eldest son of Shah Jahan (of Taj Mahal fame), was a mystic and Sufi disciple with an interest in India's diverse religious heritage. Like Akbar, the young prince cultivated good relations with his Hindu subjects. Dara Shikoh studied Sanskrit and collaborated with Hindu pundits on Persian translations of the Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita. He devoted much effort towards finding a common mystical language between Islam and Hinduism. His translation is often called "Sirre Akbar" or The Greatest Mystery, where he states boldly, in the Introduction, his speculative hypothesis that the work referred to in the Qur'an as the "Kitab al-maknun" or the hidden book is none other than the Upanishads. His most famous work, Majma ul-Bahrain ("The Mingling of the Two Oceans") was also devoted to finding the commonalities between Sufism and Hindu Monotheism.

His younger brother Aurangzeb (who gained a reputation for ostentatious orthodoxy) secured a fatwa from Muslim legal scholars denouncing Dara Shikoh as an apostate. He then had the crown prince murdered. Once in power, Aurangzeb unleashed holy war against those identified as heterodox within India's Islamic community (most notably the Shia minority). He also antagonized the Hindu population by imposing discriminatory taxation targeting non-Muslims thus beginning the end of Mughal empire that was built assiduously by Akbar by neutralising the Rajput hostility by seeking their friendship.

Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
14
>>>Amongst such pernicious ideas are that there was no civilisation in the world before the advent of Islam,

What a joke. But we must agree that there were no Mullahs before the advent of Islam.
jaleel
luknow, India
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
13
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> You keep on asserting that you are a loyal liberal Indian, American, and that liberal Hindus are on your side.

Starting the day with your empty headed drivel!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
12
Cap stitching and now this loyal to the British. This must be painted. Koi hai paint karne wala.

Myth deleted from earlier posting.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
11

http://www.dawn.com/wee...rchive/050327/dmag1.htm


Myth 5
It was the Muslims who were responsible for the war of 1857; and it was the Muslims who bore the brunt of persecution in the aftermath of the war, while the Hindus were natural collaborators of the British.

It is true that more Muslim regiments than Hindu rose up against the British in 1857. But the Hindus also played a major role in the battle (the courageous Rani of Jhansi is a prime example); and if Muslim soldiers were inflamed by the rumour that the cartridges were laced with pig fat, in the case of Hindus, the rumour was that it was cow fat. And a large number of Muslims remained loyal to the British to the very end. (The most illustrious of them being Sir Syed Ahmed Khan.)

Wah!!! Wah !!! This is real englightenment. Sir Syed Ahmad Khan and all that. Wah!!! Wah!!! Wah!!!

Agar Pakistan na ho Raazi
Tho Kya karega Kazi.

Cap stitching and now this myth loyal to the British. This must be painted. Koi hai paint karne wala.

Surely Kazi is not joking, Romila Thapar

gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
10

http://www.dawn.com/wee...rchive/050327/dmag1.htm

Myth 4
The myth of the cap-stitcher.

"Could such expenses be met by stitching caps? And even if the king was stitching caps, would people buy them and use them as ordinary caps? Would they not pay exorbitant prices for them and keep them as heirlooms? Would a king, whose focus had to be on military threats surrounding him from all sides and on the need to save and consolidate a huge empire, have the time and leisure to sit and stitch caps? "

Now tbis part of history taught looks straight like Kader Khan's cheap dialogue or like AR Rahman's music with the the modern day Hindi film lyrics.

This Janab MrKazi has given a great knockout punch.

You never know , there may be counter exhibition painted by MF Hussain with this cap stitching benovelence , with JNU & Delhi University academics dancing " Deewange, Deewangee...,chereoegraphed by Romila Thapar. The Marxists would be very good extras in this great show and dance exhibition.



gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
9
Vinod,

>> Why Mr.Raman has become an itch on your body that you often want to scratch.

What a moronic post!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
8
The Marxists in Kerala have alswys been a violent cadre , unlike Bengal which after the Naxalbari revolt and settled to skillful debaters like the late Jyotirmuoy Bosu. But unfortunately in recent times , the Marxists in Bengal have again resorted to their Naxal like days and have adopted their Kerala counterparts tactics. They have lost their ability to debate and discuss. Hence this violence
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
7
The reference of Prof Shahida Kazi should be a citation classic. I have saved it in my archives.

If SKazi is Haa-- jee.
Surely it is knockout for the Paa-ji's.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
6
Joseph of Karachi

What was your answer to your friends in the US when thay asked you: "how can a founder of a true religion wage offensive wars?". Plesse post your correspondence since it's there (not my original).
Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
5
As for the kerala clashes and the subsequent attack on the CPM office(it remains to be seen who started it first), it is high time the CPIM goons are paid back in their own coin. When it comes to the commies, I am all for doing whatever it takes to show them their place.

After all, the rule of law, morality etc are bourgeois concepts which the CPIM loathe. Stick is the only language they understand and should be used quite liberally in dealing with the CPIM goons.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
4
A good article.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
3
Soma/Bodepudi,

>> Hindus want self-governance and FINAL freedom from the Islamic menace. They demand and will fight for restricting the uncontrolled Muslim population growth in India, through one-child norms, reconversions, etc.

When did the Hindus appoint an idiot like you as their spokesman?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 11, 2008 12:00 AM
2
>> Amongst such pernicious ideas are that there was no civilisation in the world before the advent of Islam, that the Muslims have a right to re-capture all lands which historically belonged to them, that the Muslims do not recognise national frontiers.

Is this what Tony Blair meant, or is Mr.Raman playing fast and loose with facts to buttress his own argument?

>> In a piece on the rule of Benazir, the Economist of London compared her to Aurangzeb.

Catching at straws, Mr.Raman?

>> It is now recognised by imany that one of the reasons for the spreading prairie fire of jihadi terrorism in Pakistan is the pernicious influence of the Aurangzeb model.

You just made that up, didn't you, Mr.Raman?

>> the anti-terrorism campaign of Gautier and his small, but devoted band of associates is addressed to all people.

Addressed to all people? Joking, aren't you Mr.Raman?

>> To understand the mental origin of the jihadi terrorism emanating from Pakistan, it is important to identify not only their present-day mentors such as bin Laden, the Pakistani jihadi leaders and the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), but also their historical idols. Aurangzeb is one of their topmost historical idols.

And what historical idols do we need to study to understand the Tamil Tigers, or the Bajrangis or the IRA?

What a stupid article!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 10, 2008 12:00 AM
1
"The Pakistani jihadi organisations such as the Lashkar-e-Toiba (LET), the Harkat-ul-Jihad-al-Islami (HUJI), the Jaish-e-Mohammad (JEM), the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen (HUM) and the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LEJ), which are members of Osama bin Laden's International Islamic Front (IIF), project Aurangzeb as the greatest ruler in the history of the Indian sub-continent and describe their aim as the "liberation" of the Muslims of India and restoration of what they view as the golden era of Aurangzeb in the sub-continent."

Hitler's followers do the same as these Islamic thugs, regarding his (Aurangazeb's) murderous accomplishments. Hindus want self-governance and FINAL freedom from the Islamic menace. They demand and will fight for restricting the uncontrolled Muslim population growth in India, through one-child norms, reconversions, etc. The alternative is endless Godhras and Gujarats, which Hindus will never desired in history nor they do now- but the Muslims are condemned to perpetuate violnce on INFIDELS based on their founder's example and the precpts and commandments of the texts and tenets of Islam
Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
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