Fragment from Asian Art Museum: Mughal Empoeror Aurangzeb holding darbar in camp, around 1700
Urdu
Language Of Whose Camp?
Yes, 'Urdu' means 'military camp' in Turkish, but by the eighteenth century, it merely meant 'the city of Delhi'. The fascinating story of how the language whose name(s) were Hindi/ Hindvi/ Goojri/ Rekhta/ Dakhani at various times and places came to be known as Urdu.
Metonyms can be misnomers and even lead to absurd interpretations, especially if the naming word comes from another language. A case in point is the name 'Urdu'. While it seems to be "common knowledge" that Urdu means 'military camp' in Turkish, it is not at all clear who promoted the simplistic notion that the Urdu language, by virtue of its name, had its origin in military camps.

Granted that the Turks who established their rule in northern India from the eleventh century onwards must have needed to communicate with the local populace through a mutually intelligible vernacular, but the most likely place for such a language of communication to emerge would be bazaars not army camps. In any case, there was no tradition of large standing armies that would be camped in cantonments such as those of the colonial era. Armies were cobbled together whenever needed and consisted mostly of peasants and mercenaries.

Yule and Burnell the authors of Hobson Jobson (A Glossary of Colloquial Anglo-Indian Words and Phrases, and of Kindred Terms, Etymological, Historical, Geographical and Discursive, Delhi, revised ed. 1986) cite a reference from 1560 in support of 'urdu bazaar' or camp-market. They also claim that the word urdu came to India with the Mughals (Babur, the first Mughal ruler was victorious at the famous battle of Panipat in 1526). While their citation must be correct, their claim that the Turkish word came with Babur is wrong because the Ilbari Turks had already put down roots in North India much earlier.

That Hindi/Hindvi/Dehlvi was a language that existed in the Delhi region is a fact that we learn from the contemporary histories as well records of sufi discourses. The Mughals did follow the Central Asian tradition of setting up vast encampments almost city-like in proportions that could be shikargahs (royal hunting camps) or simply a court away from the formal court at the Capital. But to infer that such camps led to new language formations is to stretch the idea of urdu=camp way too far. Certainly no new language grew out of Mughal camps in Northern India.

The grammar and the syntactical structure of Urdu are based on the local speech of the times in the region around Delhi (later identified as khari boli).

Original MS of the Chandayan from the Bhopal codex
The chapter heading is in Persian the text is Avadhi or what Maulana Daud calls 'Hinduki' and the script is Perso Arabic
However, this language was not the chosen vehicle for literary production. Awadhi and Brajbhasha were the languages of poetry and other literary pursuits to the extent they were used for such a purpose in this early period.

For example, the earliest literary text in Awadhi dates from 1379 (the Chandayan of Maulana Da'ud). From the fragmented evidence that we have available to us from the literary sources of the period it seems that this speech was described as Hindvi/Hindi/ Dehlvi and the earliest literary work in it was a divaan by the 11th century poet Masud Saad Salman (1046-1121) who claimed to have divaans in three languages: Arabic, Persian and Hindvi. The Hindvi one though, is lost.

Amir Khusrau and Nizamuddin Aulia
Painting, Hydrabad Deccan, circa 1725 AD, National Museum
We learn about it from Muhammad Aufi's (composed around 1220-27) history of intellectual essences or the Lubab ul- albab (Pure Essences of the Intellect). Amir Khusrau (1253-1325) the versatile poet-genius also composed verses in Hindvi for the delectation of friends, but neither he nor they regarded those efforts serious or literary enough to be preserved or recorded in a formal collection or divaan.

Clearly Hindvi had not as yet developed enough literary potential.

Though marginalized by Persian, the language of the royal court on the one hand and Braj and Awadhi, at the regional courts and in the creative efforts of sant and sufi poets on the other, Hindvi lingered on as a lingua franca, traveling to western, central and southern India through the specific instances of official transfer of population such as the one enforced by Muhammad bin Tughluq (1325-1351), but more generally through merchants and traveling sufi mystics who were encouraged by their pirs to move to distant regions and establish their own centers.

The dynamics of the interflow between capital and region, the privilege of the north as the center of power, helped empower Hindvi and led to its development in areas distant from the place of its origin. It absorbed regional/local influences and morphed into Goojri in Gujarat and Dakhani in the Deccan.

Goojri and Dakhni flourished; their literary potential grew to encompass a wide variety of genres, subjects and attitudes. The earliest writings were philosophical-mystical poems with either indigenous or Persian metres. The lexical content was a mixture of Persian and indigenous vocabulary.

By the 17th century, 'Urdu' could boast of profoundly mystical poems such as Khub Muhammad Chishti's (d. 1638) Khub Tarang and also long love poems of the barahmasa type such as Muhammad Afzal's (d. 1625) Bikat Kahani. Around the same time, and more significantly, Urdu literature was flourishing in the Deccan, covering a wide range of subjects that ranged from the allegorical to the romance style in traditional ghazals, and included minor genres such as folk type poems like the chakkinamah that were popular among women and usually sung while performing household chores eponymous to the genre.

Literature in 'Urdu' thus developed earlier in the regions away from the capital. It was Vali Aurangabadi's (1665-1708) historic presentation of poetry in the Capital (Vali visited Delhi in 1700) that showed in no uncertain measure how complex, sophisticated, abstracted, metaphoric poetry was possible in a language other than Persian or Indo-Persian, a language that we can identify as early Urdu but which was known as Hindi/ Hindvi/Rekhta/Dakhani in those times. The poetics of this language was as indigenous as it was Persianate; probably inclined more towards the former than the latter:

Oh Vali, the tongue of the master poet
is the candle that lights up
the assembly of meanings.
(ay vali sahib-e sukhan ki zaban
bazm-e ma'ni mein sham-e roshan hai)

Like meaning in the word,
ways for new themes are not closed:
Doors of poetry are open forever.
(raah-e mazmun-e taza band nahin
ta qiyamat khula hai baab-e sukhan
)

How did the language whose name(s) were Hindi/Hindvi/Goojri/Rekhta/Dakhani at various times and places come to be known as Urdu? The issue would not have been so vexed but for the role of politics in the Urdu-Hindi divide. The emotional and passionate discourse that is unleashed or vented in the name of historical research on the origins of Urdu and Hindi has obstructed rational debates on the subject. The nomenclature Urdu with its putative connotation 'military camp' muddies the lens of historiography, making it more speculative than it would have been without the name tag.

Two books on the subject that are relatively well known are: Amrit Rai, A House Divided: The Origin and Development of Hindi/Hindavi (New Delhi, Oxford University Press, 1984) and Christopher King, One Language, Two Scripts: The Hindi Movement in Nineteenth Century North India( New Delhi, OUP 1994). An important and recent intervention in the debate on the issues of origins and nomenclature is Shamsur Rahman Faruqi's Urdu ka Ibtidayi Zamana (Karachi 1999). Its expanded version is available in English: Early Urdu Literary Culture and History (New Delhi, OUP 2001). Among other thorny but noteworthy issues that his thesis tackles, the most conclusive research/arguments pertain to the earliest use of the metonym Urdu as name for the language and the 'meaning' or allusion of the word itself.

According to Faruqi, 'Urdu' as a name for the language seems to occur for the first time in 1780 in the poet Musahafi's (1750-1824) first divaan:

Musahafi has most surely
claim of superiority in Rekhtah;
That is to say, he has expert knowledge
Of the language of Urdu
(albatta rekhtah mein hai musahafi ko da'va
ya'ni ke hai zabandan urdu ki voh zaban ka)
(Musahafi, Kulliyat, vol. 1, p. 38)


Shah Alam II (r.1759-1806) holds court, c.1780

The name 'Urdu' seems to have begun its life as zaban-e urdu-e mualla-e shahjahanabad (the language of the exalted city/court of Shahjahanabad, that is, Delhi). It originally seems to have signified Persian, and not what we today know as 'Urdu'. The shift from Persian to 'Urdu' as the language of the Court must have happened with Shah Alam II (ruled 1759-1806) who was known not only to speak 'Hindi' but who also described the language of his long prose work, the romance, Ajaib ul- qisas (Most Wonderful Tales) as 'Hindi'. He began composing this dastaan around 1792; the unfinished text he left behind covers 600 pages. However, though the term zaban-e urdu-e mualla referred to the language that was slowly gaining acceptance, the language itself was known as 'Hindi' and the word 'urdu' by itself meant the 'royal camp or city' (therefore, Delhi). With the patronage and practice of Shah Alam II, 'Hindi' rather than Persian began to be called 'the language of the urdu-e mualla'. It soon became shortened to zaban-e urdu-e mualla, then to zaban-e urdu, and then to urdu.

The problematic question that still needs to be addressed is the nature, or to put it another way, the 'genetics' of this 'Hindi'. A language must have existed before the arrival of the Turks. It grew with the interaction and mixing of populations by the arrival of the Persian speaking Turks who began settling down in Northern India. It was natural for the new settlers to refer to this language as 'Hindi'. Did the 'Hindi' that was the 'language of Urdu' (i.e. the 'language of the city of Delhi') in the late eighteenth century become the language known as Hindi today with Arabo-Persian vocables excised, and Sanskrit tadbhava added, as far as possible? How did modern Hindi and Urdu develop? I could present my viewpoint on these issues but I leave these questions for the reader to pursue. My purpose in this essay is to clarify a) the origin and meaning of the term 'Urdu' and b) to roughly outline the growth and development of a language from spoken to literary.


Mehr Afshan Farooqi, Assistant Professor at University of Virginia, is the editor of The Oxford India Anthology of Modern Urdu Literature

 
Daily Mail
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Feb 29, 2008 12:00 AM
107
Seshadri,

>> If the camel gets into the arab's tent and says let us be noble and share the tent like 'brothers'...

The analogy shows the depths of your turpitude.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 29, 2008 12:00 AM
106
Vinod:

Thank you for your kind concurrence with my postings.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 29, 2008 12:00 AM
105
NARASIMHAN M.G:
Thank you for your kind word of appreciation. If you are familiar with sanskrit, you may see my poems 'praNava-vidyaa-pravaaha' on perennial-philosophy.com website. It covers divya-vidyaa [unity of all religions], yantra-vidya [cosmo-mechanics of matter, spirit and lives], mantra-vidyaa [on mentations, meanings], tantra-vidyaa [yoga types], dharma-vidyaa [ethics, economics, ecology], sowkhya-vidyaa [psychology of happiness] and moksha-vidyaa [on soul-liberation into the absolute], with several subsection darsanas in each. Kind regards and good wishes to you.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 29, 2008 12:00 AM
104
GF:>>"simplest and most noble way of thinking is to see each other as brothers and sisters"

If the camel gets into the arab's tent and says let us be noble and share the tent like 'brothers', ask your arab friends if any arab would ever agree to such a proposition.
Indic hindus are the ONLY people in the world who 'absorbed' the attackers, Tipu died fighting for India. We don't need lessons from you on tolerance. Pak drove away all non-moslems within an year of formation. Moslems are refusing a small place for israel around jerusalem, when the name yadu-sthalam itself clearly says it belongs to jews = yudas = yadus [sans R->L = hebru = shivabruva, language of goodness.]
Tolerance is a welcome virtue. But the progeny of attackers cannot claim it from those of the attacked, as nobility expected, insisting on forgetting history. Pak insists on forgetting pre-islam history, but wont allow jews to forget pre-israel history. History is a matter of 'convenience' for moslems and marxists.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
103
Arun:>>""reserving and guaranteeing the same (and ONLY) profession to a person just because of birth" (caste)"

I am NOT at all pleading for the above herditary caste system, please understand. Perhaps you think any brahmin idiot will only stand for it.
I have explained the 'cast' system of our ancients in india. Causes for its degradation into 'castes' will only cause pain. But the corrections being made by our politicians, treating the symptoms not the disease, will only make things worse. I am really worried that the heritary-caste/creed-based reservation system of MK and arjun singh is doing exactly what you deplore. You are telling the kid from lower 'caste' he can qualify for adm and scholarship with lower marks, but put him thro same program with others without any additional upgradement teachings/trainings. He comes out unemployable, cant spell the name of his subject; has to then get job also only on reserv-basis only; will sit and watch others work; you are only building an ugly inverted-caste society; your nation, state, will fail in the competitive world. MK and Arjun will blame it all on Manu and breathe off. Future generations of India will pay the price.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
102
Arun;>>"You claim to be a system scientist. I would hope in that case you ought to be able to analyze the system of caste as a system that organises human beings like cogs in a machine who serve specific purpose and interface with other with a very strict precise protocol."

My defence is for the 'cast' system of over 7 millennia behind us, non-heriditary self-chosen as per self-insight ['swa-dharmam api ca aavekshya', as gita says], all equally proud of their casts and respected, like in US today, company VP's change to truck-drivers voluntarily; NOT the heriditary castes of the post-kurukshetra kaliyuga-induced degraded social system of higher, lower and out-castes! Gita statement 'caaturvarNyam mayaa SrishTam', emphasizes the clever [catura] typing of castes, not so much the 4 castes. I have mentioned the 4-bar linkage of ego, intellect, mind and body in each human, already. Each can be tamasic [overdamped], "saatvic [critically damped] or raajasic [underdamped]..Thus 4 power 3 = 64 types of humans possible. Tamil literature talks of 64 profession-types.

The sociodynamic systems also behave like feedback-control systems with transducers [seers, teachers, doctors, 1 in K], controllers [lawyers, police, policy-leaders, 9 in K], amplifiers [ farmers, traders, entrprenuers, 90 in K] and actuators [workers of all types 900 in K]. Gita mentions how people should chose their professions as per the guna or nature of their body,mind, intellect, suppressing ego. Ancient indians did these knowingly. Modern americans do it unknowingly bec of their national commitment to the 'protestant work ethic', which is only another name for karma-yoga.

Economics is yagjna-naame, ecology is eka-vidya, engg is yagjna-vritti. Gita 3rd chapter talks of yagjna concept, basically each one in society living for all. Raajasooya, aswamedha were meant for wealth redistribution from rich to power. When societies practice good sociodynamics yaagjnically, divines are pleased, earth and skies bless world with food and good weather. When corruption and hate prevail, quakes and tsunamies, storms and famines destroy the nations.

>>"Machines, usually with inanimate parts, with wear and tear get obsolete BUT what happens when the parts are human."

Machines also wear out, get replaced. Men and women also get replaced by the next generation, talent-based 'cast'-wise, not heriditary 'caste'-wise. 'putra-kaashTam pitru-kaashTe yah paSyati na paSyati; putra-kaashTam mano-bhaavaat maataa-pitru samaagame': meaning: wrong to see dad's cast in son; cast of offspring will depend on mind-states of dad and mom at the time of their union in conceiving the particular child. There is a lot science behind sanaatanist sociology.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
101
>>some terrorist acts in India have been attributed, though not proven, to be the work of Muslims...

LOL. Attributed and not proven ?? which one mian??

Bombay blast - attributed & not proven?

coimbatore blasts - attributed & not proven?

blast in karnataka churches ?? Kandahar hijack? attack on parliamnet ? mumbai train blasts?

Court has already given verdict in many such cases and found many muslims guilty.

And you come here and say " attributed and not proven ?? " Are you real ?

Cause of the Ummah and jihad has blinded your commonsense.
Shankar
Bangalore, India
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
100
If that was so, there would have been no need for a Pakistan, MR. VINOD.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
99

I forgot to add some couplets from the later day poet Faiz which read as:

Aaiye haath uthaye hum bhi,
Hum jinhe rasme dua yaad nahi
Hum jinhe soz-e-mohabbat ke siva,
Koi but koi khuda yaad nahi

Come, lets raise our hands
We who do not remember the rituals of (Muslim) prayers
We, who other than our savings of love
Do not remember either any God or Deity.

Dil mein ab yu tere bhoole hue gham aate hain
Jaise bichde hue kaabe mein sanam aate hai

The forgotten sorrows related to you so enter my heart.
Like the coming of the separated idols back to the Kaaba
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
98
Muslim for reform - Thank you for the long posts on Urdu, the poems of Ghalib and Dehlvi.

If you read "The wya of the Sufi" by Idries Shah, you'll find explanation of a common misunderstanding of the word, wine. This wine is not a physical drink. Its the intoxication felt by a mystic, similar to Sri Ramakrishna. No word has been understood at the lower (physical) level more than this. Omar khayyam, Rumi and so on constantly talk abot wine from the "divine intoxication" angle, produced by meditation practices. I agree that Ghalib was more physical, but his inspiration comes from these other mystics. If you re-interpret his and Dehlvi's poems from this angle, the poems will reveal another dimension.
Narasimhan M.G
Bangalore, India
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
97
Seshadri,

>> progeny of just 'hindu' women of 30 generations back. Historical honesty in viewpoint is no crime.

What historical accuracy? Who knows who is the progeny of whom? Why think along such stupid and alienating lines, when the simplest and most noble way of thinking is to see each other as brothers and sisters? You have absolutely no idea how backward and repugnant your thinking is.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
96
Wow. Some of you readers have great talent and knowledge, if you all could only stop sniping at each other.

Kudos to Sri Seshadri. I wonder if he could write regular articles on the deep inner connections between languages, people and cultures. May be the die-hard secularist, Vinod Mehta, can be lured into publishing some of them at least. Seshadri sir's love of the ancient is adorable. This is something I have observed in all Sanskrit scholars. I have eagerly copy-pasted much of his
writings for later reference. May I say Dhanyavadaha?
Narasimhan M.G
Bangalore, India
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
95
[some terrorist acts in India have been attributed, though not proven, to be the work of Muslims.]

Standing ovation for Faruki on that one...or is it standing ovulation....
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
94
Seshadri,

>> islamist terror kills ten times more than all the rest put together.

The figures I read last year showed that the Naxalites had killed more people than Islamist terrorists. But this is such a stupid argument. If you want to see the whole Indian Muslim community as being terrorists because of the fact that some terrorist acts in India have been attributed, though not proven, to be the work of Muslims. For example, a report yesterday said, "Bhopal: Congress General Secretary and former Madhya Pradesh CM Digvijay Singh has attacked MP Chief Minister Shivraj Singh Chauhan for not taking action against RSS members who were arrested with cache of arms and explosive materials last year. Talking to the press today he said that he was still standing by his earlier charge that the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) was manufacturing bombs. "I have proof in the form of a video tape,” said Mr. Singh today in Bhopal."

But then you believe that even the Gujarat massacres of 2002 were carried out by Pakistanis disguised as adivasis! You are the limit!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
93
Who and what am I, MR. V. SESHADARI, to want what you say I want. I have just been highlighting the fact that however much the rest of the World may try, more and more people are Muslims.

This is a Ground Reality that can not be wished away or driven away or destroyed away or. What is happening is a Exercise in Futility and Wishful
Thinking.

---------------------------------
-------------------

Annual Table of World Religions, 1900-2025
by David B. Barrett and Todd M. Johnson, Jan. 1, 2002
Printer page
Email article


1900 1970 2000 Trend mid-2002 2025
WORLD POPULATION %/p.a.
1. Total population 1,619,626,000 3,696,148,000 6,055,049,000 1.22 6,203,789,000 7,823,703,000
2. Urban dwellers (urbanites) 232,695,000 1,353,370,000 2,881,079,000 1.90 2,991,572,000 4,611,677,000
3. Rural dwellers 1,386,931,000 2,342,778,000 3,173,970,000 0.60 3,212,217,000 3,212,026,000
4. Adult population (over 15s) 1,074,058,000 2,310,543,000 4,254,647,000 1.76 4,405,603,000 5,987,079,000
5. Literates 296,258,000 1,475,194,000 3,261,345,000 1.76 3,377,265,000 5,046,637,000
6. Non-literates 777,800,000 835,349,000 993,302,000 1.75 1,028,338,000 940,442,000
WORLD CITIES
7. Metropolises (over 100,000) 300 2,400 4,050 1.84 4,200 6,500
8. Megacities (over 1 million) 20 161 402 2.21 420 650
9. Urban poor 100 million 650 million 1,400 million 3.16 1,490 million 3,000 million
10. Urban slumdwellers 20 million 260 million 700 million 2.82 740 million 1,500 million
WORLD RELIGIONS
11. Total all religions 1,000 6,000 9,900 1.70 10,200 15,000
12. Christians (all kinds) 558,132,000 1,236,374,000 1,999,564,000 1.27 2,050,616,000 2,616,670,000
13. Muslims 199,941,000 553,528,000 1,188,243,000 2.11 1,239,029,000 1,784,876,000
14. Non-religious 3,024,000 532,096,000 768,159,000 0.80 780,557,000 875,121,000
15. Hindus 203,003,000 462,598,000 811,336,000 1.54 836,543,000 1,049,231,000
16. Buddhists 127,077,000 233,424,000 359,982,000 1.04 367,538,000 418,345,000
17. Atheists 226,000 165,400,000 150,090,000 0.24 150,804,000 159,544,000
18. New-Religionists 5,910,000 77,762,000 102,356,000 0.94 104,280,000 114,720,000
19. Ethno-religionists 117,558,000 160,278,000 228,367,000 1.30 234,341,000 277,247,000
20. Sikhs 2,962,000 10,618,000 23,258,000 1.84 24,124,000 31,378,000
21. Jews 12,292,000 14,763,000 14,434,000 0.81 14,670,000 16,053,000


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Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
92
Seshadri,

>> we are wasting our time arguing it with jihadis and churchians on the need for moral justice to hinduism.

Your problem is not the jehadis or the churchians. Your problem is your paranoia.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
91
Seshadri,

>> You object to that viewpoint (Muslims as progeny of Hindu women) also? You also object to moslems seen only as terrorists.

You want to see Muslims as anything but fellow Indians going through the same troubles and travails that all Indians go through. You want to always see them as an abased "other". And you have absolutely no insight at all into how obnoxious your virews are.

You want to see Muslims as
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
90

Part 1 of 5

Even though I stand for radical reforms to the medieval religious dogma of Islam, the one thing which keeps me from making a clean break from my antecedents is my love for the culture of my community which I believe is one of its redeeming aspects. The language, music, cuisine and dresses and other arts of the sub-continent’s Muslim community bear the marks of great cultural achievement.

Urdu, which is the language of the Indian Muslims, which was invented and improvised by them as sought to be tracked by the author is a highly developed poetic and artistic medium. The language, as all are aware has a matrix (which are the ordinary words of speech and literature) drawn from the Indian languages, wherein, the key words taken from Persian, Arabic and other central Asian languages are interwoven. These words, which are phonetically very impressive and great sounding, impart the great poetic and artistic value to the language for which it is known. The addiction of these words and the language is’nt easy to dispel, a proof of which we can see in Bollywood, where it forms the mainstay of the medium of Hindi Films, the Film Titles, Song Lyrics and Dialogues mostly being in Urdu from the beginning of the Indian Film Industry till date.

Usage of Urdu should not be seen as a sign of cultural servitude and subordination by the Hindus as indicated by some posters in this forum. Actually, they are allured by the poetic and phonetic value of its medium and the Hindus being a fair and mostly unprejudiced people have no qualms about the language being used in their midst.

Sanskrit and its derivative Hindi are both very functional and exact languages. There are more consonants present in Hindi compared to Urdu and Urdu writing is not as exact as Hindi/ Sanskrit. The artistic difference however as I mentioned earlier lies in the words. Sanskrit words are somehow difficult to pronounce due to the fact that most Sanskrit words are made up of half consonants which requires too much twisting of the tongue. A simple example is the word Kshan which means a moment. It begins with a half consonant ‘K’ and ends with a ringing ‘n’ which gives it an artificial and an unnecessarily made up feel. The Urdu word for a moment is a Lamha which is more straightforward. Due to the above reason, people began to derive simpler words from the Sanskrit originals and such words (known as Tadbhav shabd) took precedence over their original Sanskrit forms (known as Tatsam shabd) even in the Hindi language. Thus Kshetra became Khet, Parvat became Pahaad, Vyateet became bitaana etc. Review of so many Sanskrit words for example Hriday, Praan, Shwaas, Spandan, Prem, Pushpa, Shabd, Vaakya, abhyaas, Drishti, Arth, vyarth, Vyakul, , vyavsaay, vyanjan, poorna, Anna, Bhinn, Dharma, gyaan, Vigyaan, Vaanijya, Krishna, Hritu etc. shows the excessive usage of the half consonants in the word formation. Comparing these words to their Urdu counterparts which respectively are Dil, Jaan, Saans, Dhadkan, Pyaar (Mohabbat), Phool (goonche), Lafz, Jumla, riyaaz, nazar, maane, bekaar, pareshaan, Byopaar, pakwaan, poora, khaana, alag, mazhab, maloomaat, saayins, karobaar, kaala and mausam shows the difference clearly. Hindi and Sanskrit though have gained a lot a prominence and importance over the years though and their future remains exceedingly bright. A language progresses when its users make good progress in life. The Indians (Hindus) who have reformed and modernized are making and shall continue to make good progress thereby promoting their language. Urdu, even though having a good potential is at risk of stagnating and moving closer to extinction as it will be let down by its Muslim users who remain backward, unreformed and continue to slide into backwardness with the passage of time.

End of Part 1 of 5
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
89

Part 2 of 5


In Urdu, the artistic forms which are prominent are its poetry (called as shaayari) and short stories (known as afsaane). In Urdu poetry, the form which is most captivating is the Ghazal. Ghazals are a collection of shers (couplets), which are two sentences in the same meter and rhyming kaafiyas. Shers are notably the most powerful media of expression which are capable of delivering highly charged emotions and sublime feelings with equal panache.

My upbringing is from a traditional upper-middle class Muslim family and both of my parents are educated principally in Urdu while being conversant in English too as they have studied in the erstwhile British Rule. My father is a master of Urdu/ Persian literature and is an all India level poet of some renown and both my parents contribute extensively to Urdu print media. My late maternal grandfather, who hailed from Hyderabad too was a prolific writer of Urdu literature. My father however chose English as the medium of education for his wards and hence, all my siblings including myself are unfortunately not conversant with reading and writing of Urdu text, a fact which makes my mother quite sad.

Also, Urdu language, though associated with Muslims is not unlike other languages which are free from the bondages of religion and caste and is endowed with Universal Humanist traditions like all other forms of art and media. It is quite a secular language and is used for all conceivable purposes in which a language could be used. It is used from the pulpits of the mosque to deliver religious sermons on one hand and used in poetry to extoll the virtues of wine and women on the other. It is used by the right wing Islamist propaganda by Maulaana Maudoodi on one hand and by people such as Makhdoom Mohiuddin, Kaifi Aazmi, Faiz and Sardaar Jaafery to spread their leftist socialist message on the other. Urdu also has many non-muslim litterateurs in its firmament. Kishan Chander, Pandit Birj Narayan Chakbast, Guru Bhakt Singh 'Dervesh', Tilok Chand 'Mahrum', Raghupati Sahaay Firaakh Gorakhpoori, Sudarshan Faakhir, Krishna Bihari Noor, Jagannath Azad, Premchand, Rajinder Singh Bedi, Upendra Nath Ashk etc. are all prominent names in Urdu literature.

End of Part 2 of 5

Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
88

Part 5 of 5

Some couplets by Daag Dehlvi go as follows:

Daag tu Kaabe se jaata hai jo butkhaane ko/
Sharm aati nahin kambakht Musalmaan ho kar//

O Daag, you go onwards from the Kaaba to the Temple.
Don’t you feel ashamed being a Muslim you lowlife!

Khuda ka milna bohut hai aasaan, Buto ka milna hai sakht mushkil/
Yakeein na ho gar kisi ko hum dam, to laaye koi use manakar//

Finding God is very easy but finding idols (deities) is so much difficult.
If someone doesn’t believe it my friend, he should try to convince and bring her back.

Gaye the Daag talaash e Sanam mein Kaabe ko/
Khuda ne muft kiya hai sawaab mein shaamil//

Daag went to search for Deities to the Kaaba/
God has unnecessarily bestowed blessings on him

Samajhta hai tu daag ko rind ae zaahid/
Magar Rind usko vali jaante hai

You consider Daag to be a drunkard O (Muslim) Pious Man
But the drunkards consider him to be a (Muslim) Saint!

Mujhko janaabe Shaikh ki daawat zaroor hai/
Aisi kaheen sharaab mile jisme bun a ho//

An invitation from a (Muslim) Shaikh is compulsory (to attend) for me.
Where else can I get some wine which does not have any smell (remains unnoticed).

Karte ho Daag door se Butkhaane ko salaam/
Apni tarah k eek musalmaan tumhi to ho//

You salute the Temple from afar O Daag
There’s only one of a kind Muslim like you

Baitha hai Aetekaaf mein kya Daag-e-rozadaar
Ae kaash maikade ko ye mard-e-khuda chale

What are you doing sitting in (Muslim) meditation O Daag ( while fasting)
How much we wish that this man of god should go to the (wine) bar.

Some other famous Couplets go as follows:

Zaahid sharaab peene de masjid mein baith kar/
Ya phir who jaga bata be jahaan par khuda na ho//

O (Muslim) Pious man, let me drink wine while sitting in the mosque.
Or else show me some place where God doesn’t exist!

A little known poet of my town created quite an uproar when he wrote:

Sang-e aswad ko pooj ne wale/
Mujh se kehta hai tu poojari hai//

You who worships the Black (Kaaba) stone
(How dare) you call me a worshipper (of deities).

Many more couplets of irreverence and questioning could be quoted as such.

From the above, it can be noted that Urdu could be used to promote enquiry, questioning and reform amongst Muslims.

End of Part 5 of 5
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
87

Part 3 of 5

Urdu poetry could also be employed to neutralize the religious fervor amongst Muslims. Many Urdu Poets and much of Urdu’s Poetry is full of ideas which run in the face of the known Islamic Norms. Early Urdu poets Meer and Ghalib were mostly of the liberal humanist traditions. Ghalib was called the Godless Lover. Many later day Poets like Faiz etc too are mostly against the orthodoxy of Islam.

Some couplets which come to my mind are reproduced below:

Meer ke deeno-mazhab ko, poochte kya ho unne to /
Kashka kheencha, deir me baitha, kabka tark Islam kiya //

What do you enquire about Meer’s religion!
He has made a mark (akin to the sadhus) on his forehead, sat in a temple and changed away from Islam long since.

Some of Ghalib’s Couplets go as follows:

Vafadaari, Basharte istewaari asl Imaan hai/
Agar mar jaaye but khaane to gaarho kaabe mein barhaman ko//

Loyalty and remaining steadfast is actually true faith.
If he dies in a temple, then that Brahmin should be buried in the Kaaba.

Dekhiye paate hai ushshaak buton se kya faiz/
Ek barhaman ne kaha hai yeh saal achcha hai//

Let’s see what blessings do the lovers get from the idols (deities)
A Brahmin has said that this year is a lucky one.

Humein maaloom hai Jannat ki haqeeqat lekin/
Dil ke behlaane ko Ghalib ye khayaal achcha hai//

We know the truth about (Islamic) Paradise however.
The idea is good to placate the heart.

Jaanta hoon sawaabe taa-at o zohad/
Par tabiyat idhar nahin aati//

I know the benefits of (muslim) prayer and piety,
But I don’t feel like indulging in it.

Maut ka ek din muaiyyan hai/
Neend kyu raat bhar nahi aati//

If death is predestined to come on a particular day,
Then why is one unable to sleep whole night long.

Kaaba kis mooh se jaaoge Ghalib/
Sharm tumko magar nahin aati//

With what face would you go to the Kaaba O Ghalib,
But you fail to feel ashamed.

Haan woh nahin khudaparast, jaao wo bewafa sahi/
Jis ko ho deen o dil azeez, uski gali mein jaye kyu//

Yes he is not god worshipping, and he is verily incapable of any love
For those who hold their faith and hearts dear, why do they venture into his alley.

Lutfe mai tujhse kya kahoo zahid
Hai kambakht tu ne pee hi nahi

What should I tell you about the pleasures of wine O (muslim) pious man.
Alas! You haven’t drunk.

Imaan mujhe roke hai to khenche hai mujhe kufr/
Kaaba mere peeche hai kalisa mere aage//

Faith stops me while infidelity tempts
Inspite of Kaaba behind me and the church ahead

Hota Hai Nihan Gard Mein Sahra, Mere Hote
Ghista Hai Jabin Khak Pe Dariya, Mere Aage

The desert covers itself with dust in my presence
The river rubs its forehead on the ground in front of me
(The elements of God’s universe are small in front of my ego)

Ik Khel Hai Aurang-e-suleman, Mere Nazdeek/
Ik Baat Hai Ajaaz-a-Maseehah, Mere Aage//

The talk of the justice dispensation from the throne of (the prophet) Solomon is a mere play near me.
The healing power of the messiah (Prophet Jesus) is mere talk in front of me.

End of Part 3 of 5
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
86

Part 4 of 5

Yeh masaaile tasawwuf- yeh tera bayaan ghalib
Tujhe hum vali samajhte, jo na baadkhwaar hota

These issues of mysticism (philosophy), and your explanations Ghalib.
We would have deemed you to be a (Muslim) Saint, had you not been a drunkard

Ghalib bura na maan jo vaaiz bura kahe/
Aisa bhi koi hai sab achcha kahe jise//

Ghalib, don’t feel bad if the (Muslim) Preacher speaks bad of you.
Is there any such person whom all claim to be good.

Kahaan maikhane ka darwaza Ghalib, aur kahaan vaaiz/
Par itna jaante hain kal woh jaata tha ke hum nikale//

Ghalib, where’s the entrance to the (wine) bar compared to the (Muslim) Preacher.
But I know that yesterday he was going (inside) while I exited (from there)

Voh cheez jiske liye humko ho behisht azeez/
Sivaae baada –e- gulfaame mushkabu kya hai//

That (those) thing(s) for which we love the (Muslim) Paradise
What else other than Flower flavored wines and aroma of musk

Of his poetry Ghalib says

Aate hain gaib se ye mazameein khayaal mein/
Ghalib sareere khama nawa-e-Sarosh hai//

These articles come to the mind from the supernatural
O Ghalib, the rustling sound of the pen (on the paper) is (actually) the voice of angels.

Bandagi mein bhi voh aazad o khudbeein hai ke hum/
Ulte phil aaye dare kaaba agar vaa na hua//

We have so much self respect and are so free even in worship that
We turned back if the door to kaaba did not open upon us.

Oomr bhar dekha kiye marne ki raah/
Mar gaye par dekhiye dikhlaaye kya

Entire life (they) kept looking forward to death.
Now (they) died but just see what they (are able to) show [ie nothing]

A philosophical couplet which I find the best by Ghalib is as follows:

Haste eke mat fareib mein aa jaaiyo Asad
Aalam tamaam halka-e-daame khayaal hai

Do not get fooled by the fraud of Life O Asad
The entire world is just a ring of a chain of thoughts

It explains the entire philosophy of Descartes that we think therefore we are in one couplet.

End of Part 4 of 5
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
85
GF:>>"Seshadri,>> progeny of just 'hindu' women of 30 generations back, but of 'innocent helpless hindu women most atrociously assaulted by the gazzni/ghauri hordes.
Historical honesty in viewpoint is no crime. Besides, this is part of prema-yoga, priye eva manah yatra iti 'prema'. In any situation, hatred can be replaced by sympathy and empathy but appropriate review of the viewpoint.

In fact, with this viewpoint, if taken up, the moslems in india, pak, iran, iraq, malaysia, indonesia can feel more friendly towards hindus in india, instead of hero-worshipping the gazznis and ghauris and chenghish-khans. They can also review their alliegance to the saudis, turks, the al quidas, talibans etc. and jihadi ummaists, in general, and feel more indic in their civilizational self-identification. Indic moslems can then live more harmoniously with others, avoiding separatist prescriptions from the imams and royalty of saudi arabia. This might also bring about constitutional monarchy democracies in arabic and other monarchies of the middle-east, eventually.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
84
GF:>>"Terrorism kills both Hindus and Muslims, irrespective of whether it is Islamic, Naxalite or Tamil Tigers. But it seems nothing is clearly conceptualized by you unless you can call it Islamic! "

Even your typical 13yr-old anywhere in the world will tell you that islamist terror kills ten times more than all the rest put together.
LTTE kills hindu tamils and budh sinhalese for a christian eelum. The few hindus among naxals, financed by anti-india islam, kill for misconceived marxism, not for hinduism.

I can assure you, anyway, at a spiritual level, terrorist martyrdom will no longer inherit heaven on jupiter, only hell in saturn. They will be reborn in repentance in 30 yrs. Terrorism will die off after 30 yrs, if the earth can manage to survive till then.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
83
Soma:>>

I have posted a reply to Joseph on the other thread itself, kindly see it. My problem is that my postings are not visible to me before a day's delay, perhaps OL & GF want me out, anyway. I manage to see on my second computer, sometimes.

But, I think we are wasting our time arguing it with jihadis and churchians on the need for moral justice to hinduism. God knows the truth. Jesus and Allah will do justice to India and hinduism, whether the churchians and mullahs like it or not, since they are only different faces of a universal Absolute.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
82
GF:>>"progeny of just 'hindu' women of 30 generations back, but of 'innocent helpless hindu women most atrociously assaulted by the gazzni/ghauri hordes." Is that what you think of every time you see a Muslim?
You object to that viewpoint also? You also object to moslems seen only as terrorists. No sympathy for southasian moslems, no hatred also. They wont also merge with harmony with nonmoslems. So, what you and Joseph want is that non-moslems should thin out their families and quit the earth quite soon, leaving it only for the islamic umma. So be it, if that is what Allah really wants.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 28, 2008 12:00 AM
81

Islam and Muslims are two different sets of concepts but UNITED.

Islam never teaches terrorism; Islam might say 'killing people for the good of people is good'. The catch is here 'what is good according to whom and for whom'.

Every relgions have radicals and fundamentalists. In India, we have RSS, VHP, BAJRANG DAL, etc. In China, no other religions are allowed; Chinese knows how many people were jailed for trying to convert to Chirstianity and Islam. In Africa, Whites are not allowed to walk or live freely; they call it 'Black Empowerment'.

All third world and non-white-governed countries are now trying to stick to their principles and nativity, that was followed by the western countires in the past 4-5 centuries.

If we rewind the World history 3-4 centuries ago, the history will tell you how -the so called Western powers - ruled and killed people - a kind of holocaust and homicide.

Tired of all those or after emptying the world resources and enjoying them core, the western powers are now in talks about globalization and liberalization or FTAs, as they need more again from the third world countries who fought back with their resources and build a new base to survive.

Religious conversion is not crime; people who need or lost their social identity will convert to a new belief, knowingly or unknowingly / willingly or unwilligly.

Had castism banished from practice or economy divided equally, there's no scope for any kind of conversion. Religious conversion is one's belief of transition from one state to another state. Any conversion that does not kill people is not harmful society.

Freedom is freedom only while it's used freely, consciously, and harmlessly.

Nobody can force somebody to drink a bottle of p***.

{{{{Had immigrant Brahmins accepted dalits or tribes, Had opulent Jamindaris shared wealth equally, people would not havelooked out for a way called 'CONVERSION' to live.}}}}

The Majorities or the Opulents or the Powerfuls rejected them; hence they joined where they were accepted. PERIOD!

"Crying over spilt milk gets you no fresh milk.'

Sasi KC
Reston, United States
Feb 27, 2008 12:00 AM
80
Seshadri: I am posting your debate with Joseph since you seem to be more present here:

"Baghwan Willing, MR. V. SEHADARI, you will see in 2025, how much of Europe is Muslim. The only answer is to learn to live with them." JOSEPH

Your understanding of Islam is wrong and hence your remedy. Unless Islam is open to free, fearless and open dialogue-within and without, there will not be peaceful coexistence. Buddha tells in Kalam Sutra not to depend on a Buddha or Vedas or any tradition or any custom-UNLESS it's thoroughly TESTED by each of us-as the goldsmith does with gold-and PROVEN to be beneficial. Experiential, rational and time-tested!

This is the prime reason why I oppose Christian conversions, in India. What are you converting into and Why? Why convert from such a glorious tradition that upholds free inquiry and fearless examination of its texts and tenets-into another tradition that is proven to be (by history and current events) decidedly unfit (at best) to guide the humanity in one case and incomplete, inadequate & chequered(at best), in the other?
Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Feb 27, 2008 12:00 AM
79
Soma:>>"how corrupt, greedy and burdensome the Indian bureaucracy has become. It's fully backed by the corrupt political system"

In full agreement with your perception. It is a problem as old as independance, perhaps. Rajaji started saying PWD was his enemy number one! When I chose elec engg for BE instead of civil, in 1951, people laughed saying only civil engrs get more side-incomes. Most states and centre have changed from govt-done projects to turn-key projects by private firms, to avoid official corruption and delays during execution, often to suit engrs and families to stay on site indefinitely, for kids' education. But, turn-key tenders also do not fructify when politicians demand heavy outside bribes. Highway projects in bihar receive no responses for tender advts!

A small and honest centralized direct-elected presidential govt, with no state govts, 1k of cities and districts directly administered electronically from the capital thro high-tech collectors, could be the eventual answer to india's problems.

In the US, R & D proj for univ are matching-funded by state govts, only if private firms interested in early results on such projects come up with their own contributions. Perhaps, India's infra-structure development can be accelerated and completed without line-loss, if private firms, badly needing the infrastructure, offer to join the funding and supervision of the jobs, to ensure quality and on-time completion for their own corporate progress and sustenance.
Similaarly, the corporates, instead of complaining about unemployable graduates from politicians' colleges and reservationist admissions, could themselves adopt some good colleges, monitor the teachings and projects there and select their best outputs in open competition with others. This will force all educational institutions to become more quality-conscious and less commercial, avoiding the pampering of the students, parents and politicians.

In Germany, MPs are given extra allowances for them to pay for consultancy with the best of univ proferssors for any problem. In India, politicians choose vice-chancellors and advisors for reasons of caste and psychophancy. When a system run by a group of such psycophants is found to have failed over decades, the same group is again asked to provide suggestions for change. God alone can save this country, if He really wants to!
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 27, 2008 12:00 AM
78
Seshadri,

>> progeny of just 'hindu' women of 30 generations back, but of 'innocent helpless hindu women most atrociously assaulted by the gazzni/ghauri hordes.

Is that what you think of every time you see a Muslim?

>> islamic terrorism is even worse than gazni/ghauri type of those days:

Terrorism kills both Hindus and Muslims, irrespective of whether it is Islamic, Naxalite or Tamil Tigers. But it seems nothing is clearly conceptualized by you unless you can call it Islamic!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 27, 2008 12:00 AM
77
GF:>>"Sympathy for a fellow human being, or sympathy because he may be the progeny of a Hindu woman?"

Sympthy for fellow humans is always there. Additional sympathy deserved, not bec of being progeny of just 'hindu' women of 30 generations back, but of 'innocent helpless hindu women most atrociously assaulted by the gazzni/ghauri hordes, unprotected by infighting selfish rajput men of those days'. Hope you see the significant point I am making.

If Deoband wants terrorism eliminated from islam, they should openly regret the terrorist atrocities of the gazzni/ghauri types on south asia from baghdad to bankok. Then only, today's islamist and islamophile youngsters will stop considering such hoons as their heroes and not imitate them in their terroris acts. Today's
islamic terrorism is even worse than gazni/ghauri type of those days: people then could at least see the hordes coming and run away, those who could; today, bombs are planted to kill indiscriminately inside crowded wholly unsuspecting groups including lots of women and children, a military surgeon killed in pak the other day!.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 27, 2008 12:00 AM
76
Seshadri .... can't blame Soma for "hurried" reading as you called it, since your posts about "hindu culture" as "mother of all things" are quite a bit over the top. Even if, one grants this "mother of all things" business, it is first not necessary that "mother knows best" and secondly, the "mother" is now too old and the children might not have come out too well.

You claim to be a system scientist. I would hope in that case you ought to be able to analyze the system of caste as a system that organises human beings like cogs in a machine who serve specific purpose and interface with other with a very strict precise protocol. Machines, usually with inanimate parts, with wear and tear get obsolete BUT what happens when the parts are human?

I am not a system scientist but I believe if you organize humans like that, you get many of the ills you still see in our society.

In fact take the example of the qualitative difference, pointed our by Soma, in the "corruption" in India versus others including our Asian cousins to the east (some of who by various indexes are more corrupt that us). I agree with Soma - in most places which we would like to compare/compete with, "work of a certain std." gets done in spite of corruption (even if corruption is more than in India). Here the culture is of "maximize for self with the least work (possibly even no work)". It is, IMHO, a most likely logical outcome of "reserving and guaranteeing the same (and ONLY) profession to a person just because of birth" (caste). Most people would do the quickest shoddiest job they can get away with and if their job comes with some power because of which they can fleece they would do so, but naturally, without bothering about the quantity or quality of result. Such a system will kill pride, professionalism, productivity, quality, innovation, continuous improvement .... you name it. It will be mind numbing repetition, ritualistic, going thru the motions .... my ancestors did it this way .... so do I ... so sure you get a LOT of tradition and useful or not it all survives (sometimes gasping for breath but survive it does).

So I hope the "Hindu culture greatness" brigade look inside more than "others" as the enemy or repeating like a parrot what the "western" indologists have left us with and ignoring what our critics (typically also western) have to say.

Then the multiple whammies of overlaying caste with feudalism from Islam, to overlaying class from the British and then socialism of post indepedence. It's a great PHd topic for a System Scientist. Luckily starting with IT (and post liberalization) where the genius of the early greats was to learn (by and large copy best practices) from the Americans, and now spreading across industries (due to competition and globalization) work culture is improving and that is a really +ve sign.

I have maintained that the combination of urbanization, industrialization and democracy might just reform us like no one else in the past has been able to. The tension is coming from the "fear" that we might in the process not be able to recognize ourselves in the future.
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Feb 27, 2008 12:00 AM
75
Soma:>>"Hindu Priests & Pundits must come forward with ONE voice that they will destroy all remnants of caste-varna centric injunctions that nearly destroyed the cultural-spiritual fragrance of India. Get rid of the filth from the Hindu scriptures, permanently"

In full agreement with you. If all hindus are constitutionally declared 'brahmins' tuned in mind with the one absolute 'bramhan' seen in a variety of godforms, if casteist surnames are banned and castes and creeds removed from govt recognition, all sources of social hate in give and take among hindus will be eliminated.

yasmin api mate kaashTe jaato jigjnaasur aastikah, upaneetastu gaayatryaam dwijo braamhaNa ucyate: meaning: any godbelieving spiritually aspirant person from any caste or creed becomes 'reborn' in bramhan, mind tuned into the absolute underlying all godheads, when he/she uses the gayatri mantra praying, essentially, 'lead kindly light' to the spiritual content in the sun's rays. bramhaNI manah yasya iti braamhaNah!

Only note that the 'filth' was not 'contained' in our ancient scriptures. It was with kaliyug-induced degenerate minds which interpretted socio-efficient voluntarily self-chosen 'casts' into heriditary socio-divisive 'castes'. Corrections would be most appropriate, as suggested by you.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 27, 2008 12:00 AM
74
Soma:

I am NOT seeing any 'moral equivalence' betw gazni/ghauri and ram/krishn. My point was that, but for arab/turk onslaughts, bangalore boys today may be only govinds and gopals, hindus, no hanif/kaleel moslems. My sympathies for them is enhanced bec the are progeny of helpless women abducted/assaulted millennium ago; hindu male chauvinism was such that, even if an abducted girl escaped and returned, she was sent back to the assaulter's harem!. No wonder hindu-hatred is in their genes!. Extra sympathy reqd to make it disappear.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 27, 2008 12:00 AM
73
Soma:
You seem to be misreading and misunderstanding me, bec of hurried reading, perhaps.

I agree with you in deploring extreme corruption among politicians and bureaucrats in india, especially at state level. Electoral replacements could only be equally bad, that is what I meant, in my question. Hence, I have been pleading central rule in states, for a few yrs in betw two elected govts. If some corpo-heads with mgmt success behind them take to national politics, it may be good for the country.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 27, 2008 12:00 AM
72
Namo:

'akka' means 'elder sister' in tamil and malayalam. Sometimes, in large joint families, kids call mom akka, in line with her younger siblings, until old enough to know the difference.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 26, 2008 12:00 AM
71
"did not say that. Seshadri did"

Thanks. Seshadri gets lost often in the Vedic forestry, some trees benevolent, most not. Justas the Turkish scholars are trying to reform Islam, Hindu Priests & Pundits must come forward with ONE voice that they will destroy all remnants of caste-varna centric injunctions that nearly destroyed the cultural-spiritual fragrance of India. Get rid of the filth from the Hindu scriptures, permanently
Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Feb 26, 2008 12:00 AM
70
Soma,

>> "But for the gazzni and ghori hordes and the infighting among the rajputs of those days, these would have been just gopals or govinds today" GF

I did not say that. Seshadri did.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 26, 2008 12:00 AM
69
Please correct for typos, below
Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Feb 26, 2008 12:00 AM
68
"Is there someone non-greedy to replasce them?" Seshadri

Wrong question, period.

Lok Satta in their web site highlight with FACTS and ANALYSIS how corrupt, greedy and burdensome the Indian bureaucracy has become. It's fully backed by the corrupt political system, and using the Sen's criterion, it must have killed million of Indians with corruption and inefficiency.

Indian corruption is QUALITATIVELY different from the American/Chinese models. In India, the politicians/bureaucrats steal from the farmers' SEEDS-thus escalating the project infinitely cost through endless corruptioncentric negotiations. The Chinese and the Americans (infrequently) steal from the produce!

A project that can be implemented in about 14 months in the US took us over 3 years to negotiate (where no money had changed hands, for the first time in India's 60-year post 1947 history, only to be shelved once I quit the negotiating team-to be renegotiated and starting all over again-to incorporting the kick-backs!

There is of course some reason and some rationale why a bus conductor is forced to be corrupt-forced by her/his meager wages, huge family and the associated expenses of education and the evil dowry system. But why these goons negotiation a power project? Already they had stashed over 300-400 Billion dollars in Swiss banks, accumulated since the 60s. I even advocated during the Bajpayee governments (and before) to pay even upto two hundred thousand dollars each, per annum, for these so-called chief project "negotiators" since the inevitable project delays that otherwise will inevitable ensue will cost us literally hundreds of billions of dollars in waste, thru inefficiencies alone
Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Feb 26, 2008 12:00 AM
67
"But for the gazzni and ghori hordes and the infighting among the rajputs of those days, these would have been just gopals or govinds today" GF

Wrong. There's no moral equivalence between the serial, genocidal thugs and the "gopals and the govinds". This MUSLIM insensitivity is what leads to unending civil strife and unrest in India.
Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Feb 26, 2008 12:00 AM
66
Reforming Islam: Urgent Need of the Hour

//Turkey is preparing to publish a document that represents a revolutionary reinterpretation of Islam - and a controversial and radical modernisation of the religion.

The country's powerful Department of Religious Affairs has commissioned a team of theologians at Ankara University to carry out a fundamental revision of the Hadith, the second most sacred text in Islam after the Koran.

The Hadith is a collection of thousands of sayings reputed to come from the Prophet Muhammad.

As such, it is the principal guide for Muslims in interpreting the Koran and the source of the vast majority of Islamic law, or Sharia.

This is kind of akin to the Christian Reformation. Not exactly the same, but... it's changing the theological foundations of [the] religion

Fadi Hakura,
Turkey expert, Chatham House

But the Turkish state has come to see the Hadith as having an often negative influence on a society it is in a hurry to modernise, and believes it responsible for obscuring the original values of Islam.



Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Feb 26, 2008 12:00 AM
65
Seshadri,

>> I was only pleading that educated and progressive hindus should show sympathy to the haniff-types.

Sympathy for a fellow human being, or sympathy because he may be the progeny of a Hindu woman?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 26, 2008 12:00 AM
64
GF:>>"Your system is anything but scientific. It is highly imbalanced and partisan"

I talk about system science and you denounce my 'system'! Your prejudice precludes honest evaluations.

Anyway, I was only pleading that educated and progressive hindus should show sympathy to the haniff-types, who may have joined SIMI innocently, thinking it is just a moslem-students of india orgn, something like tamil-students in karnataka! But for the gazzni and ghori hordes and the infighting among the rajputs of those days, these would have been just gopals or govinds today. I am only pleading for sympathy and empathy for moslem students in our schools and colleges from nonmoslem students. They would then join general students' forums, instead of going for separative SIMIs.

Compare my attitude with that of Musharreff who names the pak missiles after gazzni and ghaouri, implying that the paks, also the progeny of similar hindu women assaulted by the same gazzni/ghauri hordes, are supposed to glorify those very same goons! Paks and iranians [persians] and iraqis [mesapottamians] should actually wage a war on the saudis and turks, if they have any civilizational selfrespect left in them!
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 26, 2008 12:00 AM
63
Prof Seshadri & Namo , here you go, a great web site on Sanskrit for study as well as inquiry.


http://www.taralabalu.org/panini/


gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Feb 26, 2008 12:00 AM
62
Seshadri,

>> As a system scientist, I look at all parts of the system.

Your system is anything but scientific. It is highly imbalanced and partisan.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 26, 2008 12:00 AM
61
Soma: >>"Perhaps a very strict family planning implementation is required, which the corrupt Congress is unwiiling/unable to enforce. Need to get the greedy and the corrupt out of power"

Is there someone non-greedy to replasce them?
I was looking at the political faces in parliament televised during president's address.
Only ugly, egoistic, arrogant, cruel and corrupt faces on both the UPA and NDA sides! The faces of the leftists almost demonic! Jashwant sinha wants bjp alliance with jayalalita! Vekaiah naidu and chandrababu naidu wont unite their parties in AP for the welfare of their state, personal egos more important that the country. BJP ganesan or cho in TN wont call rajnikant, vijaykant, both truly nationalist and hinduistically secular, to join bjp in TN !

I see no good political prospects for india, unless some of our corpo-heads, who have made enough money for many generations, decide to join politics for some honest and purposeful management for the country as a whole. But, Ratan, Bajaj and Premji want only to be making more and more money!

Perhaps, the chinese may overrun india and the whole of south asia in the near future and enforce the single-child norm on all, hindus and moslems. That may be good for the world. .

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 26, 2008 12:00 AM
60
GF:>>"You had to spoil your otherwise reasonable post, and that too by bringing up Hanif who was acquitted of all charges by the Ausrtralians"

As a system scientist, I look at all parts of the system. As probably an artist, you want to look only on aspects that are beautiful or comforting. That is the difference betw our two viewpoints, Unpalatable truths have also to be recognized for solving social problems.

I did not mean any hanif in particular. You can take it as Afzal, if you prefer.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 26, 2008 12:00 AM
59
Namo: One of the interesting examples of sansktit names getting into even strongly anti-hindu islamic leadership setups in the country, is the socalled 'Deoband' in uttarpradesh, meaning 'divine-related'; 'deva' in sansk meaning divine goes as 'deo' in latin to 'deoband' into urdu, via hindustani perhaps. But then, even 'islam' stands for 'eeSa-raama' mata, the religion where Alla=God alone is worshipped. Clearly, all the words used by humanity are spiritually derived only from divinity, they only tend to unite mankind; what separates mankind into conflicting groups is the 'ego' of individuals and sects. 'eeSam gopayati iti'= "ego": ego screens off the perception of the omnipresent Absolute behind all existence.Religious ego is the worst form of ego.

agrato mamataa sarpah, nih-satva-karaNa-trayam, jeeva-vrittir vikaaryate yantrito-api paraatmanaa: meaning: although all living beings are basically driven by the same underlying divine spiritual intelligence [paramaatman], they are, each of them, linked to human action-results by a typical 4-bar linkage familiar to mech engrs; ego-> intellect-> mind -> body. While the latter three are highly underdamped and often even unstable, as control-systems, the first link, the ego [mamataa], is almost serpantine [sarpa] in behaviour. Imagine the first bar of the 4-bar linkage, driving a locomotive, turning into a serpant!. Results are chaotic, no wonder. Humans must overcome their ego, if they want to be divines instead of being demons, in their lives, as individuals or political groups or nations.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 26, 2008 12:00 AM
58
"Perhaps, a single urbanized mode of development may be reqd for the whole of india, with on-roof agriculture and mechanized food-processing, eventually." Seshadri

Perhaps a very strict family planning implementation is required, which the corrupt Congress is unwiiling/unable to enforce. Need to get the greedy and the corrupt out of power
Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Feb 26, 2008 12:00 AM
57
namo:
One might say that the veda-roopa naada-bhoota deva-bhaashaa, known spiritually as the 'naada-bramhan', 'heard' as Sruti by the rishis and transmitted to sishyas may be taken as the mother of both enscripted forms of tamil and sanskrit.

Even the bible says creation started with the 'word'. In my opinion, all knowledge in word-form originates in this spiritual language, as 'cetanaa' or activation of human 'intelligence', dheeh, modifiying the storage in buddhi, the antar-lakshya-yantra, 'intellect'. [yaa devee sarva-bhooteshu cetanetyabhi-dheeyate, devi maahaatmya]. Those familiar with sans, the meditative rishis, saw it and transmitted it as such, with meanings; those with other languages, put it into closest forms thereof. For example, zoraster [saara-tushTa, one seeking and satisfied only with truth] saw the God in fire form and called it 'ahura-mazda' of the parsees. Seen in sans as 'aahuta-samasta', it clearly stands for agni of fire which can receive all things in 'aahuti' and consumes them. Confucius sanskritizes as 'sampoojyah', the venerable, very correctly.
Agriculture in english becomes agree-kalaa, the 'first art' reqd for mankind. Your earlier statement that the naada-roopa veda-bhashaa, constituted by cetanaaa, paro-rajas, tamizh, mahaasaraswati, sister of Shiva, consort of bramha, is the mother not only of all languages, but all knowledge also, of mankind and the 'divinity' forces sustaining it.

Regarding the panini-vyakaraNa-sootra mentioned by you, I have not seen them myself; can comment only if I see the preceding and succeeding ones also in context. But, I think it should really read :" ambikaa akara-aarabdha-maatru-vacikaa', [your version may involve some mistransliteration] meaning: 'ambika' is the word for mom in sans starting with akara, the first vowel in all indo-european languages. 'akara-mudal ezhuttellaam' says valluvar in his first poem of tirukkural. I presume Panini is giving example for akara-starting word meaning mother in sans. ['maa' is an important root-word in sans, meaning 'mom', ammaa in tamil; even the calf calls its mother cow with sound 'maaa'!] Ambika is a very important 'name' for the cosmo-mom in hinduism: lalitaasahasranama starts with Sree-maataa and ends with lalita-'ambikaa'.

Letter 'ra' often gets modified into the next consonant 'la', when moving from indic to midwestern languges, perhaps the reversed R-L reading may have something to do with it. hara becomes 'allah'; hari becomes 'ali'. Omkaara as written on the tops of hindu northindian temples has 3 component elements, which, when read reversed R->L, as devnagri numerals, are seen as '786', considered a very 'sacred' number in the mid-east cultures, perhaps bec they have been noticed them on temple-tops in india!

The form in which you have found the sutra with 'alla' in it could be due to the above reasons. Alla does not denote mom, but allah = hara= Shiva.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 26, 2008 12:00 AM
56
Seshadri,

>> We should rember that the 'haniff's of today are really the progeny of the helpless hindu women assualted by the 'gazzni's of a millennium back.

You had to spoil your otherwise reasonable post, and that too by bringing up Hanif who was acquitted of all charges by the Ausrtralians!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 25, 2008 12:00 AM
55
Soma:

I fully share your concerns on the higher rate of increase of moslem population compared to others and the increasing density of population within India in its relatively small area. Perhaps, a single urbanized mode of development may be reqd for the whole of india, with on-roof agriculture and mechanized food-processing, eventually.

Societies or species which feel threatened with hostilities all round tend to proliferate in population. But, such societies also lose population in sectarian wars and acts-of-God events like quakes/tsunamis like in pok/indonesia etc. [excessive hatreds in human minds provoke wrath in the mind of the absolute, geo-reactions follow]. The answer lies in reducing mutual dislikes, fears and hatreds among humans, not in exacerbating them.
During the post-partition riots in calcutta, the mahatma came across a hindu lamenting the loss of his son; he showed him an orpahaned moslem boy and asked him to adopt him and bring him up as a moslem! Our problem is not with Allah=Christ=Shiva, but with the mullahs who manufacture madness in their madarsas.

Indic sanaatana-dharma in sub-himalayan south asia has survived over ten millennia, from unknown origins to this day, despite undescribable onslaughts by asuric forces, in days of prehistory and history. We can rest assured that the Supreme divine which preserved and protected us over millennia will continue to find ways of doing so in the coming centuries also, in the globalizing world, provided we continue our culture-base on truth and non-violence. We should show compassion and comradery to the moslems of south asia, in india and other countries also, as we indics master science, technology and management techniques and contribute to world-welfare thro venture-capitalism and entrepreneurship, taking in the service of all sections of people in india and neighbouring countries also.

We should rember that the 'haniff's of today are really the progeny of the helpless hindu women assualted by the 'gazzni's of a millennium back, they deserve even more sympathy from us than today's hindus, even if they appear to hate hindus now, under mulla-tutions. Otherwise, bhaarat maataa will not bless us.

Corporate india should divert its profits to nationalist productive education in their neighborhoods, taking kids from all sections, irrespective of caste/creed, charging only those who can afford to pay, holding special free evg classes for madarsa kids, so that moslems also join the professional mainstreams, in large numbers. [The few moslems students I have had were really competant to learn and succeed, if taught properly, at any level]. If economic wellbeing and individual selfrespect is given to more and more moslem youngsters, they will get out of the conrol of the mullahs and their promised virgin-heaven and become real followers of all-merciful Allah in the service of mankind.
The next generation of moslems will then learn the value of small families, like others. World population and that of India also will eventually get stabilized.

Goodness in the world can only be achieved only thro god-faith and good work, not thro hatred or hate-speech or extremized perceptions of disaster.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 25, 2008 12:00 AM
54
Gajanan:

In full agreement with your comments and quotations on malayalam being very close to sanskrit. Both sets of my grandparents are from Palghat. I have some familiarity with the malayalam language, although I grew up and studied and worked mostly in tamilnadu. In my view, malayalam is tamil language extensively sanskritized, with sanskrit-cum-tamil consonants and vowel, with separate script, similar in form to telugu and kannada. Most words are drawn from tamil; malayalam = malai-aalum-deSam, in tamil, = country dominated by mountains. Andhra stands for 'aaryataam gata daraaviDa' dravidians fully adopting the aaryan way of life. In my view, separatism betw sanskrit and tamil, north and south, will only help the churchians in their harvest of indians for their incomes; similarly, dichotomy betw hindi and urdu will only help the mullas who want to create more and more 'virtual paks' within india.

All the languages of India deserve study and encouragement. I do not agree that sanskrit should be made the national language; it should be kept for scholars in philo and culture, like latin and greek for Europe. Indian kids can easily master many languages. If politicians keep their ugly noses off education, parents and teachers will ensure kids learning enough languages to meet their needs in 21st century: mother tongue, local tongue of state, hindi as national language, english as global language, and then, either sanskrit for devout hindus/jains/budhs/sikhs, latin for devout christians, hebrew for jews, or urdu/arabic for devout moslems.

Crooked politicians needing ignorant votebanks are playing tricks on people; PMK ramdas says tamil alone should be medium of instruction in all tamil high schools, after ensuring all of his own grandkids are english educated, settled abroad, possibly, as Jyoti basu has done to bengal. Same with the ex-educ-min in karnataka. Educ should be left to parents and teachers only, as in all western countries. Govts should only assist. Politicians pontificating on educ should be promptly jailed for violating the basic human rights of citizen parents and their children, the future citizens of India.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 25, 2008 12:00 AM
53
Just got it from google search


http://www.hinduonnet.c...es/2002090500340200.htm


Malayalam is one amnong the ... says the article.

Malayalam is one among the Indian languages standing closest to `Sanskrit' and a large number of literary works till the beginning of the 20th century were written in Manipravalam, a mix of Sanskrit and Malayalam.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Feb 25, 2008 12:00 AM
52
Seshadri, some decades back, when Hindi was being foisted on Tamil Nadu , then there were riots and probably laid the launching pad for the political birth of DMK. The verbal fracas over language continued and there was lively debate in the Parliament as to which language was closest to Sanskrit. Some said in pure form Hindi , some said other languages. But an MP from Bengal pulled a real one to silence the entire Lok Sabha. He said " if you want a language , very close to Sanskrit , then Malayalam comes closest, so let us have Malayalam as the national language"

The press esp in those days was not glitzy one like now. One reporter said , the MP has thrown a spanner and the spanner was a great one. For some time the language discussion all over India was put on hold and all was well.

I do not remember who the debater was , proabably the great late Jyotirmoy Bosu from Diamond Harbor , Kolkata.

Is it true that Malayalam is the closest to Sanskrit? Prof Seshadri , your take on this.

The scrit may differ, but closness is it so?
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Feb 24, 2008 12:00 AM
51
Seshadri:

Nice sentiments. But population explosion among Muslims especially will keep them divided and fighting-no matter what happens to Urdu.

You seem to miss the forest of Theocratic Fascism while painstakingly counting the few friendly trees

//Few countries face as big a challenge as India.
It is already the world's second most populated country with over 1.1 billion people, not far behind China which has 1.3 billion.
But China's population is expected to level off in the coming decades because of the government's one-child per family policy.
India's population will keep on rising and the UN expects it to reach around 1.6 billion by 2050, by which time it will have overtaken China to become the world's most populated country.



Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Feb 24, 2008 12:00 AM
50
>>>"need for a separate nation for the Muslims after the Urdu-Hindi controversy"

Despite phonetic similarity and near-identity, the urdu-hindi divide was bec of very different scripts, hindi written L->R and urdu R->L. Mainly bec of the asura-beeja in arabs and the daiva-beeja in indo-europeans. During the samudra-mathana of ksheera-sagar, divines pulled clockwise, demons anti-clockwise. Even today, hindus do pradakshin, clockwise when looked from top, of temples; Haj pilgrims go round mahaakaaleswara linga in mecca, anticlockwise, dressed like siva-worshipping south-indian brahmins!

Well, quite a bit of asuragenics in arabs and turks have been eliminated by millennial onslaughts on the south-asian indics, also by will of God.

Now, inds and paks both learn and write in English, with the rest of the globalizing world. Benazir has praised the indian middleclass; Nawaz sharief praises the indian army. Time for ind and pak to shake hands, make friends, develop south asia from arabia to vietnam as the emerging asian equivalent for the EU!.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 24, 2008 12:00 AM
49
Chaitanya, Namo, Anand:

Sankrit stands for 'sams-krita', 'samyag-krita', meaning specially well-made, something like saying 'advanced maths' over 'maths'.

During the early vedic days, rig-veda was only 'sruti', 'heard' by rishis 'internally' and recited to disciples, transferred and preserved only orally, no script. At a certain point in prehistory, vedas were 'submerged', [excess of moisture in air due to overflooding of the earth could have rendered hearing difficult, or defective, distorting sound waves; bramha, the giver of the 4 vedas, hence seen as tetra-headed, also playfully imprisoned by skanda = murugan; then, murugan gives a simple, natural language called tamizh to agastya. [ tamattai, iruttai, izhakka-seivadaal tamizh, meaning anti-dote to ignorance, disenlightenment, darkness; tamil is paro-rajas, meaning spiritual activator, enlightener. In TN schools, children are forced to sing praise of 'tamizh-taay' instead of saraswathi, goddesss of learning, MK/Veeramani not realizing that tamizh itself is only another name for saraswati only!].

Tamil has 'natural' consonants ka, ca, ta, pa, Ra vallinams, with associate mellinums and idayinams making 18. 12 vowels, most scientifically formulated, with scripts. It is the simplest and most natural of the world's languages. Sans is an 'expanded' and augmented form of tamil.

With matsya-avtar desubmerging the vedas, bramha also dis-imprisoned after Siva intervenes, gets murugan to give Him the meaning of om-kar as swaminath, vedas get revived, but vedic 'sounds' more complicated that simple tamil sounds, hence a more advanced or 'samskrita' language reqd, with ka, kha, ga, gha instead of ka only, and so on, along with ja, ha, ksha, sa and Sa and sha. hence sankrit and devanaagri script originated , along with grammar for it developed later by Panini. When bharati sings of 'senthamizh', he is actually singing of 'santhamizh', sanskritized tamizh, with 18 consonants along woth addl ja, sa, ksha eetc. Popular names like MGR cannot be well pronounced without 'ja' in tamil! As I have pointed out, tol-kaappiar stands for 'sthala-kaavya' in sans, meaning ex-tempore on-spot poem-giver. Interpreting his name in tamil as 'old-poet' will be ridiculous, since no living person will be given name 'ancient poet' by his contemporaries!

So much to show closesness betw tamil and sans.
Only politicos seeking divided votes emphasize the aryan-dravid differences. Educated elite should ignore them. Adi Sankara, great poet in sans, calls himself "dravida-SiSu". Valluvar uses sans word 'bhagavan' in his very first poem in tirukkural.

Spiritually sans is mom of tamil; script-wise, tamil is mom of sans. Both of them are forms of divine wisdom-mom saraswati only. She is sitting as a parrot on the shoulder 0of cosmo-mom Meenakshi in Madurai temple!
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 24, 2008 12:00 AM
48
"Urdu-Hindu differences was one of the causes that led to creation of Pakistan" Chaitanya

Good post, thanks, Chaitanya.

Hindi Urdu differences are more than linguistic-they are cultural and also, to a certain extent, civilizational. There was the cultural-linguistic-racial superioity complex among the Urdu folks perhaps also based on Hindu-Muslim divide-that eventually resulted in the bloodiest Partition the world had seen, in modern times.

Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Feb 23, 2008 12:00 AM
47
Anand,

Urdu-Hindu differences was one of the causes that led to creation of Pakistan. This is a vital historical fact that misses no serious student of history, which I remember you often claimed to me.

Please refer,

"Sir Syed Ahmed Khan first felt the need for a separate nation for the Muslims after the Urdu-Hindi controversy in 1867. It raised the question in the minds of the Muslim leaders that how the two separate nations could survive on a same soil when they could not unite on the matter of choosing a single language? After this incident, Sir Syed Ahmed Khan gave the Two Nation Theory in which he realized the need for the Muslims to demand a separate nation for themselves."


http://dailymailnews.com/200508/14/article.html


"Although Muhammad Ali took away form practical polities till the middle of 1906 be stepped into politics at the end of 1906, when Muslim League as party came to being. The dispute of Urdu-Hindi played a vital part in the establishment of Muslim League. Muhammad Ali was one of its founder members. Comrade an English newspaper and Hamdard an Urdu newspaper were issued by his in 1911 & 1913 respectively. He was put behind the bar in December 1919 for writing an article under the caption of “Choice of the Takes”


http://eprints.hec.gov.pk/1029/1/759.html.htm
chaitanya
chennai, India
Feb 23, 2008 12:00 AM
46
Mehr Farooki

Focus on freedom of thought, for women and men-don't worry about languages. Urdu is indeed the most beautiful ROMANTIC language, but it played a part in the subjugation of women through sexual slavery.

Please focus on domestic violence against women, whatever be the language used:

"The husband may forbid his wife to leave the home because of the hadith related by Bayhaqi that the Prophet ... said: "It is not permissible for a woman who believes in Allah and the Last Day to allow someone into her husband's house if he is opposed, or to go out if he is averse"
Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Feb 23, 2008 12:00 AM
45
The Pali and The Sanskrit, in that order, are (were) India's major contributions to humankind, in languages.
Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Feb 23, 2008 12:00 AM
44
"Speaking Urdu is a joy; it is a great language; love it! Unfortunately, it is being polluted by the Arabic hardliners. Wish they could keep their dirty minds off the language." Sohan

Urdu is more a "romantic" language (especially for the ruling/parasitic class)and was oppressive for the working class-sexual misconduct of the lustrful written all over it-unfit for the much needed revolution in culture and in technology
Soma
Barrington Hills, United States
Feb 23, 2008 12:00 AM
43
Chaitanya: "Please don't forget that one of the main disputes that led to creation of Pakistan has to do with differences between Urdu and Hindi, though they might seem similar to you."

>> Urdu/Hindi differences led to the creation of Pakistan? Which planet are you from? Urdu was the mother tongue of less than 9% of Pakistan when partition happened. Many Pakistanis infact resent Urdu as the language of mohajirs.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Feb 23, 2008 12:00 AM
42
CHaitanya: "I consider Urdu foreign as I am less influenced by it. South India in general is less influenced by Urdu. Even rural parts of North India where vernacular dominates the bazaar and household language. "

>> South India is less influenced by Sanskrit as well. It is proven beyond doubt that Tamil grew outside of Sanskrit influence ... and that Sanskrit words came to be adopted much later due to trade etc. For better or for worse, many Tamilians consider Hindi/Sanskrit the language of the north forcefully imposed on south indians. So to many Tamilians, Sanskrit is almost as alien as Urdu.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Feb 23, 2008 12:00 AM
41
Chaitanya : "Urdu poetry, literature, language and it's mesmerizing skills, however effective, are only to impose Arabic, Persian, Turkish cultural influence. In other words, it's a Muslim package. It's sad that people fall for it. I found Urdu tasteless and of less aesthetic value from the beginning."

>> This is the stupidest piece of reasoning I have ever heard in my life. I see that you haven't grow up from your silliness Chaitanya. By the same token, south indians could say that the imposition of Sanskrit (and the ad nauseum usage of Sanskritized words by Hindutva leaders) is an attempt by the hindi-speaking north to oppress dravidian languages which have non-Sanskrit roots.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Feb 23, 2008 12:00 AM
40
If you are a true Pakistani down to your bones, Mr Joseph, and proud of it which any one can see that you are, then you should lament the enormous clout that Saudi Arabia has in your national affairs through USA even down right to direct intervention when the chips are down and its interests are at stake.

The highly arabicised Urdu of PTV and Geo Tv is further proof of that.

The way you are so brain-washed by your media and a long military rule that your anti-India and anti-Hindu profile and stance in these columns makes you look like a joker who has an immedicable itch that is getting increasingly annoying rather than ignoring it ..
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Feb 23, 2008 12:00 AM
39
What did you hear and see that made you conclude, through those two channels, that we are a Colony of Saudi Arabia, MR. VIJAY AGARWAL?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
38
Chaitanya:>>"Dravidian and Sanskrit have influenced each other in various ways"

In full agreement with your views. Some poems in support of your view.

draaviDaanaam gjnaana-bhaashaa:
yadaa vedaah jalam neetaah skanda-baddhe brahma-deve [when vedas were submerged, bramha imprisoned] guhena-eva-agastya-dattaa gjnaana-bhaashaa draavidaanaam [ tamil given by guha to agastya].

praakritaa tamizhambikaa:
zhakaara-alankritaa bhaashaa puraaNaa praakritaa paraa; tamo-naaSaat tam-eekshaNaat tattvagjnaa tamizh-ambikaa.

kumaaree tamizhambikaa:
skanda-pitroh paarvatee-eeSa-vivaaham dakshinaat su-drug kumbha-jo draviDa-bhaashaa-gjno kumaaraat kumaareem Subhaam. { agastya who witnessed siva-parvati marriage from south was blessed with tamil by skanda, kumara of siva and sakti]

tamizhambikaa-sutaah: [great savants in tamil]:
agastyam [agastya] sthala-kaavyam {meaning on-the-spot poem-giver}[tol-kaappiar] ca vaLLuvam viSwa-vid-kavim [tiruvalluvar, with univ-wisdom]
aabhaaryaam [auvvayyaar] Sregir-aaryam [sekkizhaar] ca kambam [kambar] su-bhaarateem [subramhanya bhaaratee] tathaa; datvaa dakshiNa-bhaaratee draavidaa tamizh-ambikaa.

draaviDa-aarya-kulam tv-ekam: [aryans and dravids only one culture]
aarya-draavida-yor dvaitam yah paSyati na paSyati; draavidaarya-kulam paSyet bhaarateeyam Siva-aaSritam. [aryans dravids unite in Saivism]
draavido vetti dravaNam [draavida sees rudra's cosmo-drive] amritatve-aarya yatnavaan [arya seeks immortality of soul] {hence both are same}
agastya-Sankara-sambandhaah vaLLuvaantaa draavidaaryaah [agastya to sankara to valluvar are all Siva-seeing arya-draavidas only]

I am sure you will see the points emphasized in the poems.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
37
Namo:>>"sanskrit, the only complete language. all the languages in the world have originated from sanskrit"

In full agreement with you: A couple of poems in support of your
view:

veda-bhaashaa-niroopaNam:
bhaasana
m gjaana-deepanam bhaashaNam tasya Sabdanam; bhaasam samyag sabdayati yaa bhaashaa saa samskritaa paraa.
deva-bhaashaa veda-roopaa rigSrutaa rishibhih Subhaih; santum yogyam yad tat satyam samskritam satya-bhaashaNam.

Words are simple enough for the meaning to be seen.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
36
Gajanan: I fully appreciate your comment and thank you for the quote from Mark Twain on India.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
35
Yes, listening to PTV or Geo TV news broadcats in Urdu it sounds like as if Pakistan has become a Saudi Arabian colony ...
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
34
Speaking Urdu is a joy; it is a great language; love it! Unfortunately, it is being polluted by the Arabic hardliners. Wish they could keep their dirty minds off the language.
sohan
rockville, United States
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
33
Mr Shiva

I have to agree with Ghulam Faruqi ... you are free to post what ever tickles your fancy but I may bring it to your kind attention that by doing so you are not doing much good to India or Hindus for that reason, for besides being irrelevant to the subject matter your posts do carrry a lot of anti-Islam and anti-Muslim grudges. Of Course one is free to hold one's opinions and you are entitled to yours ... with due respect ...

Btw, if you seriously believe that Taj Mahal was a Hindu temple/palace then you should work towards a petition to ASI and Govt of India to unblock the doors and passages in the lower most level of the monument to unravel what's behind them ... until then the building represents to millions of Indians and the rest of the world a monument of love built by a king for his beloved queen ...

Thank you ...
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
32
Shiva/Bodepudi,

>> Jihad in India By Murthy M.

You are pasting your scurrilous hateful material all over this board even though it is not relevant to the article under discussion. You are a despicable scumbag out to poison inter-community relations among Indians.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
31
Shiva/Bodepudi,

>> Taj Mahal: Symbol of Muslim Rapacity & Plunder.

Seems the venom inside you is boiling over today!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
30
Chaitanya,

>> Urdu poetry, literature, language and it's mesmerizing skills, however effective, are only to impose Arabic, Persian, Turkish cultural influence. In other words, it's a Muslim package. It's sad that people fall for it. I found Urdu tasteless and of less aesthetic value from the beginning.

A clear winner of Hatefulness Award.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
29
Mehr Farooqui has done really a scholarly research. She is right ... the term "zaban-e urdu-e mualla referred to the language which itself was known as 'Hindi' and the word 'urdu' by itself meant the 'royal camp or city' (therefore, Delhi)."

So, it is clear that the Hindi was the "language of Urdu" which found the royal Mughal patronage in Delhi and "soon became shortened to zaban-e urdu-e mualla, then to zaban-e Urdu, and then to urdu." using the Persian/Arabic as its script and words as the ruling class instead of native Devnagri.

So the difference between the Hindi as we know it today and Urdu is basically of script and vocabulary ... Hindi using the Sanskrit and Devnagri script as developed during the Gupta period, and Urdu, the Arabic/Persian as used by the Mughal court.

But most importantly there developed a lingua franca "Hindustani" which had a mixed vocabulary spoken and understood over most of united India by all Indians except in deep south, Hindus or Muslims alike. It had no script but became the language of the nationalist and literary expression, freedom movement, and the Bombay film industry ... remember Mohd Iqbals’ “Sare Jahan se accha Hindustan hamara ..Hindi hain hum watan hai Hindustan hamara” …

It is only a quirk of history that this Hindustani, when written in Devanagri with Sanskrit words was claimed as Hindu "Hindi" but when written in Arabic/Persian became Muslim "Urdu" for there have always been Hindu writers and poets in Urdu and Muslims in Hindi.

This was the most scandalous and false communal divide that happened in India during the British period on the basis of language and a Pakistan was created with Urdu as its national language in lands where it hardly existed among the native masses ...
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
28
I consider Urdu foreign as I am less influenced by it. South India in general is less influenced by Urdu. Even rural parts of North India where vernacular dominates the bazaar and household language.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
27
Extra H is appropriate usage actually, when the name is spelled. As in "tha".
chaitanya
chennai, India
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
26
I must apologise for that extra H in the spelling of your name. I am sorry.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
25
Would you have the same Revulsion for Spanish because it is a Christian Package or Sinhala because it is a Buddhist Package or Sanskrit because it is a Hindu Package or Yiddish because it is a Jewish Package or......, MR. CHAITHANYA?.

From when did the taste or tastelessness of a Language become connected with the Religion of the User.


Balance?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
24
"still it sounds same. for instance..

in urdu..voh ladki bahot khoobsurat hai.

in hindi..wah kanya atyant sundar hai."

Yes there is a similarity. But Urdu still is a out and out Muslim package. Please don't forget that one of the main disputes that led to creation of Pakistan has to do with differences between Urdu and Hindi, though they might seem similar to you.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
23
A fascinating article!

The article's premise, somehow not clearly stated for another wise very well-written article, seems to be that 'Urdu', literally, is 'the language spoken in the royal city of Delhi', and that we, perhaps, shouldn't be afraid of calling the language currently spoken in Delhi as that. A strange geopolitical irony indeed!
Akshay
Hyderabad, India
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
22
Namo,

I would like you to go through the following link,


http://en.wikipedia.org...dian_languages#_note-19



"Dravidian substratum influence on Sanskrit -

Dravidian and Sanskrit have influenced each other in various ways. Some earlier views in this interrelationship tended to view it as one-way from Sanskrit to Dravidian as evidenced in the following statements: "While the origins and initial development of Dravidian languages was independent of Sanskrit,[22] during later centuries, however, Dravidian languages like Kannada, Malayalam, Tamil and Telugu have been greatly influenced by Sanskrit in terms of vocabulary, grammar and literary styles.[23]"

The above views must be considered in the light of the well-known Indologist and linguist (Zvelebil 1975: pp50-51): "... the period of the high water mark of Tamil classical literature was one in which the two great Sanskrit epics were already completed, but the Sanskrit classical poetry was barely emerging with Aśvaghoṣa." More importantly he continues: "No stylistic feature or convention could have been borrowed by the Tamils (though of course there are borrowings of purāṇic stories" (emphasis added). Zvelebil remarks:"Though the dominance of Sanskrit was exaggerated in some Brahmanic circles of Tamilnadu, and Tamil was given unduly underestimated by a few Sanskrit-oriented scholars, the Tamil and Sanskrit cultures were not generally in rivalry".

However more recent research has shown that Sanskrit has been influenced in certain more fundamental ways than Dravidian languages have been by it: It is by way of phonology[24] and even more significantly here via grammatical constructs. This has been the case from the earliest language available (ca. 1200 B.C.) of Sanskrit: the Ṛg Vedic speech.

The Ṛg Vedic language has retroflex consonants even though it is well known that the Indo European family and the Indo-Iranian subfamily to which Sanskrit belongs lack retroflex consonants (ṭ/ḍ, ṇ) with about 88 words in the Ṛg Veda having unconditioned retroflexes (Kuiper 1991, Witzel 1999). Some sample words are: (Iṭanta, Kaṇva,śakaṭī, kevaṭa, puṇya, maṇḍūka) This is cited as a serious evidence of substrate influence from close contact of the Vedic speakers with speakers of a foreign language family rich in retroflex phonemes (Kuiper 1991, Witzel 1999). Obviously the Dravidian family would be a serious candidate here (ibid as well as Krishnamurti 2003: p36) since it is rich in retroflex phonemes reconstructible back to the Proto-Dravidian stage[See Subrahmanyam 1983:p40, Zvelebil 1990, Krishnamurti 2003]."
chaitanya
chennai, India
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
21
Urdu poetry, literature, language and it's mesmerizing skills, however effective, are only to impose Arabic, Persian, Turkish cultural influence. In other words, it's a Muslim package. It's sad that people fall for it. I found Urdu tasteless and of less aesthetic value from the beginning.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
20
"fact is, hindi in pure form has its origin in sanskrit"

But there is no existent pure form of hindi favored by masses that is close to sanskrit. Hindi in reality, is more close to Arabic, Persian than Sanskrit.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
19
"it is the youngest of the many languages generated by the indian civilization"

Seshadri it reminds me of Mark Twains quote on India.

"This is India! The land of dreams and romance, of fabulous wealth and fabulous poverty, of splendor and rags, of palaces and hovels, of famine and pestilence, of genii and giants and Aladdin lamps, of tigers and elephants, the cobra and the jungle, the country of a hundred nations and a hundred tongues, of a thousand religions and two million gods, cradle of the human race, birthplace of human speech, mother of history, grandmother of legend, great-grandmother of tradition, whose yesterdays bear date with the mouldering antiquities of the rest of the nations—the one sole country under the sun that is endowed with an imperishable interest for alien prate, for lettered and ignorant, wise and fool, rich and poor, bond and free, the one land that all men desire to see, and having seen once, by even a glimpse, would not give that glimpse for all the shows of all the rest of the globe combined. Even now, after a lapse of a year, the delirium of those days in Bombay has not left me, and I hope it never will."

These lines below are enough to support your statement stated above,

"Cradle of the human race, birthplace of human speech, mother of history, grandmother of legend, great-grandmother of tradition"
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
18
: UNKO ISLAM KE LOOTE JANE KA DARR ITNAN HEIN ,

AB TO KAFIR KO MUSLMAN NAHIN KARNE DATEY :
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
17
FAIZ was a Colnel in Pak Army .He had resigned but was arrested in 1951 in Rawalpindi cosipracy case. Jailed 4 yrs .for 3 months he was in solitary cell.Best Sahiri he wrote in Jail.

Below is the last Gazal of Faiz Ahmed Faiz.He died in 1985 .



1 : Be basi ka koi derema9treatment) nahin karne datey

Ab toh Veerana bhi Veeran nahin Karne detey :

2 : UNKO ISLAM KE LOOTE JANE KA DARR ITNAN HEIN ,

AB TO KAFIR KO MUSLMAN NAHIN KARNE DATEY :

3 : DIL MEIN JO AAG FIROZAAN( burning) HEI ADUU(enemy) USKA KAYA ,

KOI MAZMOON UNVA NAHI HONE DATEY ;


4: DIL KO SADLAKHT(hundered pcs) KIYA SINEY KO SADE CHAK ,

AUR HAMNE CHAKEY GAREBAN NAHI KARNE DATEY ;

He critised the Islamisation of Muslim society in Pakistan . Faiz was disilusioned with the Nizame Mustafa.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
16
Urdu sounds really nice when sung. Couplet heard during cadet days:

Chandni ki raath thi,
Haath mei haath tey,
Paav pe paav tey,
Lekin, ghabraayiyein nahin..
...
Woh meri bicycle thi!
shapra
Santa Clara, USA
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
15
'urdu', sanskritized, becomes "oordhva-bhaashaa", high-level culture language. The moslems of Lucknow were famous for high culture in conversations and poetry. urdu is essentially a product of the indian subcontinent. 'oordhva-bhaashaa sowmya-bhaashaa khanishTaa bhaarateeyajaa, it is the youngest of the many languages generated by the indian civilization.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
14
We were talking about Urdu Poetry. However, I found Indeevar's Creation in Hindi Script. Hence, the English Transliteration
Follows.

----------------------------------
------------------

caaMd kao @yaa maalaUma, caahtaa hOM ]sao kao[- cakaor
vaao baocaara dUr sao doKao, kro naa kao[- Saaor

dUr sao doKao AaOr lalacaae
pyaasa najar kI baZtaI jaae
badlaI @yaa jaanao, hOM paagala iksako mana ka maaor

saaqa calao taao saaqa inaBaanaa
maoro saaqaI BaUla naa jaanaa
maOnao taumharo haqa maoM do dI ApanaI jaIvana
Daor

--------------------------------------
--------------

chaand ko kyaa maaloom chaahataa hain use koee chakor
wo bechaaraa door se dekhe, kare naa koee shor

door se dekhe aaur lalachaaye
pyaas najar kee badhatee jaaye
badalee kyaa jaane, hain paagal kisake man kaa mor

saath chale to saath nibhaanaa
mere saathee bhool naa jaanaa
maine tumhaare haath mein de dee apanee jeewan
dor

---------------------------------------
-------------





Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
13
'Sheikh sahib se rasmo rah na ki,
Shukr hein Jindgi Tabah nahin ki '

(I did not go near the Clergy .Thank God I did not reuine my life.

[(Alas Pak forgot the lesson of Faiz)]

'Tere daste sitam ka ajez nahin,
Dil he kafir tha jis ne aah na ki'

( You tried every possible Toture available in Your hands ,

But my heart never uttered a AAH )

'Theih Shabe Hizar kaam aur bahut,

Hamne Fikre dile Tabah na ki"

( I had many tings to do during your Judai but I did not banish your thoughts-

[ Is Faiz refering to Almighty ?

Can some one clarify pls ? ]

'Kaun Katil bacha hein Seher( city) mein Faiz ,

Jis se Yaron ne Rasmo Rah ni ki '

a k ghai
mumbai, India
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
12
Very nice etymological research. Beautiful paintings. I love the Amir khusrau/Nizamuddin Aulia and the Shah Alam II court paintings. About Urdu, what can one say that reflects its charm? I'll fall back on Chand ko kya maloom chahtha hai use koyi chakor.
Narasimhan M.G
Bangalore, India
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
11
I have to thank you, this time around, KIRAN BAGACHI.

Urdu is also captivating. Although, I was born in a Konkani speaking millieu where English became the "common language", as it is India, I fall back to Urdu at most times. Bangla is, I feel, less captivating.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
10
When Hindi is Mixed with Urdu or Vice Versa it is deemed as Pollution.

Hatred and Hypocrisy, your new name is MR. VINOD.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
9
You enjoy the Hindlish spoken on India's Television Channels, MR. VINOD. There is no talk of Pollution Then.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
8
Please read your following excerpt and note the word
"only".

-----------------------------------
-----------------

9% of the population of Pakistan speak only Urdu.


------------------------------------------
----------

I speak English, Urdu, Bangla and a smattering of Konkani and French. That would exclude me from the Nine Per Cent. Got it.

Comprehension becomes Biased Where Prejudice Steps In, MR. GAJANAN.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
7
"Saving Tamil, Malayalam, Telugu, Kannada, it seems rest all the Indian languages are polluted with Urdu(Arabic, Persian etc.) influence."

I would say Tamil, Malayalam, Telugu, and Kannada are unfortunate and rest all the Indian languages are ENRICHED, not polluted with Urdu. Its a beautiful and poetic language. Its extremely unfortunate that it has been associated with a particular religion and therefore banished by many. The famous Gulzar's song "yaar mera khushbu ki tarah, jiski zuban urdu ki tarah..." praises urdu in the most simple and touching way, without using heavy words.

I love Hindi as well Urdu and well versed in both. in fact i feel knowledge of one makes you enjoy the other more.
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
6
>>all the Indian languages are polluted with Urdu(Arabic, Persian etc.) influence

piggy poop of a statement. urdu is a beautiful language. extremely poetic. most bollywood songs wouldnt exist if not for urdu.
chester pester
timbaktoo, timbaktoo
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
5

http://en.wikipedia.org...i/Languages_of_Pakistan


Demographics
Punjabi 45%
Pashto 18%
Sindhi 10%
Urdu 9%
Saraiki 8%
Other 6%
Balochi 4%

[edit] Urdu (National language)
Urdu is Pakistan's national language and has been promoted as token of national unity though about than 9% of the population of Pakistan speak only Urdu. It is written in modified form of Arabic alphabet. First poetry in Urdu was by Persian poet Amir Khusro (1253–1325), first Urdu book Wo Maglis was written in 1728 & first time word "Urdu" was used by Sirajuddin Arzoo in 1751

An interesting piece from Wikpeadia above. Only 9% know Urdu in Pakistan, which is declared a national language. It is truly one of the greatest paradox of modern times.

The author says that " Urdu" is word for military in Turkish, which may be one of the reasons Hindi must have been promoted with the non-Muslims by the British. Many words in Urdu have similar meanings in Hindi, only the script is different.

One word Sepoy comes to mind.

A sepoy (IPA: /ˈsipɔɪ/) (from Persian ӁÇåی Sipâhi meaning "soldier") was a native of India, a soldier allied to a European power, usually the United KingdomA sepoy (IPA: /ˈsipɔɪ/) (from Persian ӁÇåی Sipâhi meaning "soldier") was a native of India, a soldier allied to a European power, usually the United Kingdom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepoy.
The meaning above allied to UK has a lot of significance.

Now the word " Urdu" means military in Turkish says the author . Wikepeadia ' Says ' Sepoy " is a soldier owing thier allegiance to UK ( with reference to India). The question is

1) Did the British use the Turkish meaning to make soldiers during the Mughal rule into Sepoys.

2) Did the British allow the non-Mughal ruled states in India to develop Hindi.

3) By (1) & (2), a clear divison was possible.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
4
Chaitanya,

>> all the Indian languages are polluted with Urdu(Arabic, Persian etc.) influence.

What a hateful statement! It is also so juvenile.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
3
Shiva/Bodepudi,

>> the Islamic imperialism still haunts, terrorizes and devastates the Hindus and India.

This paranoid outburst in a discussion on the contributions of Urdu to our cultural heritage? You truly are sick.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
2
Saving Tamil, Malayalam, Telugu, Kannada, it seems rest all the Indian languages are polluted with Urdu(Arabic, Persian etc.) influence.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Feb 22, 2008 12:00 AM
1
"dynamics of the inter flow between capital and region, the privilege of the north as the center of power, helped empower Hindvi and led to its development in areas distant from the place of its origin. It absorbed regional/local influences and morphed into Goojri in Gujarat and Dakhani in the Deccan."

So you mean, before Goojri and Dakhani over flowed south, Gujarati and Marathi people were speaking languages that were closer to Dravidian languages?
chaitanya
chennai, India
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