Counterpoint
The Secular Hypocrisy
It is Modi's rejection of the hypocrisy of the self-styled secularists which makes him stand apart as a Hindu leader with a difference in the eyes of his admirers, enabling them to say, "Say You Are A Hindu, Hold Your Head High".

"Maut ka Saudagar", 'Liar", "the Ugly Indian" etc etc etc.

All the kind of epithets, the like of which till now used to come easily out of the mouth of  President George Bush of the US and the pens of his Neo Conservative supporters.

Mr Bush should be worried that he has now a growing number of competitors in the coining of demonising epithets in the community of the self-styled secularists of India .

What epithets they did not use against Shri Narendra Modi for the last five years and particularly  in the weeks before the recent elections to the Gujarat Legislative Assembly, in which the Modi-led Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) won a spectacular victory despite the best (or worst) efforts of these self-styled secularists to demonise him day in and day out!

The pathological dislike--even hatred--that some of our journalists--particularly in the electronic media--have for Modi could  be seen or sensed as one watched the TV coverage of the counting of votes on December 23, 2007. Initially, as it appeared that the BJP  might  not do well in the final tally, there was excitement among many of the TV anchors. They thought they had tasted  blood. After an hour, the BJP candidates started racing ahead and it became clear the the Congress (I) was in for a  drubbing.

The disappointment on the faces of some of the anchors was  to be seen to be believed. A five-star lady anchor could not help remarking: "Modi might be able to win the elections in Gujarat, but he still can't get a visa to go to the US and other Western countries." Some consolation!

Instead of spending their time searching for abusive expressions in the dictionary and in their copy-book of such expressions, if these self-styled secularists had only visited the web sites, discussion groups and  blogspots of members of the Hindu community not only in India, but also  in other countries of the world--particularly in the US-- they would have noticed something, which might have given them cause for introspection.

They would have noticed that Modi is becoming the icon of a growing number of Hindus not only in India, but also in the Hindu diaspora spread across the world. The support for him is not confined only to the Gujarati-speaking Hindus of the world. It is spread right across the Hindu spectrum--whatever be the language or ethnicity or place of origin of the Hindus concerned.

They would have noticed that in the Hindu diaspora in the West, more young people admire Modi than grown-ups. Many of his young admirers in the US were born  and brought up there and had the benefit of the best of secular education. In spite of this, there is a sense of pride in them that the Hindu community has at long last produced a leader of the calibre of Modi.

What is it they see in him?

  • His simple and austere living of the kind associated with the late Kamaraj of Tamil Nadu, but not seen in the  leaders of today?
  • His reputation as an incorruptible politician, the like of which is not found anywhere in India--not even in his own party?
  • His style of development-oriented governance, which even his detractors on other grounds do not hesitate to praise?
  • The fruits of his policy, which Gujarat and its people are already enjoying?
  • His tough stance on terrorism?
  • His lucid-thinking on matters concerning our national security?
  • His defiance in the face of the greatest campaign of demonisation  mounted against him, the like of which only Indira Gandhi had faced from her political opponents and sections of the media in the 1970s?

All these are factors, which influence their favourable perception of him, and which have already been highlighted and analysed in the articles on his impressive election victory.

But there is one factor, which is more important than these and which has not found mention in the analyses.

That is,  for large sections of the Hindus--young and old, even more among the young than among the old-- he gave them a sense of pride in their identity as Hindus.

They feel that he removed from their minds long habits of defensiveness as Hindus carefully nurtured by the self-styled secularists.

As if to proclaim one's Hindu identity and to assert one's rights as Hindus in their own homeland in which they are in a vast majority (80 per cent of the population) is to be communal, is to become an ugly Indian.

For these self-styled secularists, a pretty Indian is a Hindu, who is all the time on the defensive, fights shy of proclaiming his Hindu personality and  asserting his rights as a member of the majority community.

These self-styled secularists would not address their sermons of secularism to the Islamic countries, where for a Muslim to convert a non-Muslim into Islam is an act blessed by Allah, but for a non-Muslim to convert a Muslim into his religion is a crime calling for the death penalty.

For them, secularism is a virtue which a Hindu should practise towards others, but not others towards him.

It is Modi's rejection of this hypocrisy of the self-styled secularists, which makes him stand apart as a Hindu leader with a difference in the eyes of his admirers.

Bharathiyar, the Tamil poet who inspired millions of Tamil youth to join the independence struggle under Mahatma Gandhi, wrote: "Tamizhanenru Chollada, Talai Nimirndhu Nillada"

"Say You Are a Tamil, Hold Your Head High."

The growing legion of Modi's admirers in  the Hindu community all over the world are saying: "Hindu Enru Chollada, Talai Nimirndu Nillada."

"Say You Are A Hindu, Hold Your Head High."

They are no longer prepared to be defensive in proclaiming their Hindu idenity, in asserting their rights as Hindus.

They are secular in the genuine sense of the word, but for them secularism does not mean developing a guilt complex about being a Hindu and all the time conceding the rights of others. They do not accept the argument that a Hindu, who asserts his rights, ceases to be a secularist.


B. Raman is Additional Secretary (retd), Cabinet Secretariat, Govt. of India, New Delhi, and, presently, Director, Institute For Topical Studies, Chennai.

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Daily Mail
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Jan 10, 2008 12:00 AM
448
Bade Mian "Satya Harischandra ">>If your post deserved any attention, I would have answered it.

Or because you know you have been caught lying and do not have the minimum basic decency to accept you made a mistake.

Suit Yourself. Facts will speak differently. You said Gujarat has "disowned" Indian constitution , because Modi Gave 3 days to the hindu goons to take revenge.

I nailed that Lie. Army was out on streets on 1st March fore noon. Riots started on 28th February, AND FEBRUARY 2002 HAS ONLY 28 DAYS.

From February 28th to March 1st is one Day, not 3 days for revenge as you were lying.

It is another one of your trademarked and patented lies , just like the board you saw in dena bank "not very long ago", saying " we do not hire muslims".

Please keep posting . Will help other readers to know what a shameless , hateful liar you are.
Shankar
Bangalore, India
Jan 09, 2008 12:00 AM
447
AKGhai,

"So how do you explain Pandits' cleanising in Kashmir basis your understanding of 'correct Politcal History and Culture of Kashmir'?"

>> First of all, lets remind ourselves that the brutal expulsion of the pandits happened in 1989-1990. (BTW, its not just kashmiri pandits alone but hindus in Kabul who were chased away in 1992. Nobody even talks about the hindus in Kabul! We'll tackle that subject later.)

>> If indian kashmiri muslims wanted to get rid of their hindu brothers there was no reason for them to wait until 1990. It is clear that the forced exodus of the pandits was a result of ZiaulHaq's "Operation Topac".

Some information is available here:


http://www.panunkashmir.org/facts.html

Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 09, 2008 12:00 AM
446
Vinod,

"
Calling a spade a spade is hate.you talk as if there was no carnage, genocide,ethnic cleansing in Kashmir and in the north east.Your language smells of a typical secular fanatic who wears a secular's trouser's and a fanatics underwear"

>> On the other hand, I DO think that there was a brutal ethnic cleansing out of Kashmir, a direct result of ZiaulHaq's strategy to destabilize our country (Khalistan too was part of this). I've written about it in the past here as well. I find it unbelievable that the Indian govt did nothing and partly blame the then governor Jagmohan for being an idiot.

>> I like your imagery "secular trousers and fanatics' underwear."
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 09, 2008 12:00 AM
445
Ganesan,

"Also if you present facts that do not conform to Anand's worldview, you are taking things out of context. But if you ask what the correct context is, then............................ "

>> You sound like a reasonable man with intellect. There is no need to resort to ad hominem attacks (something which I tend to do from time to time as well, unfortunately!) If you don't like what I'm saying, please tell me when I get my facts wrong. I don't except people to have the same OPINIONS as I do - thats why its called an opinion, not a fact. I oppose people's OPINIONS when they are based on untruths or half/selective truths. It is still possible to reach opposing conclusions based on the same set of facts - but at least we'll be working with the same facts!
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 09, 2008 12:00 AM
444
Bade Miyan "Harischandra">>I assume the reference is to Gujarat police officers murdering people in their custody, bypassing the courts in a kind of "vigilante justice"

Rubbish. Did Punjab disown indian constitution as well? There are more than 3000 documented cases of encounters in punjab , to curb militancy. Hundreds of encounters have taken place in Maharashtra , Karnataka, Delhi and UP. Recently Mayawatis government shordown 2 terrotists in an encounter. Has she dosowned the indian constitution as well ? Why pick on Gujarat which has very low number of encounters compared to other states?

>>Another reference may be to the Tehelka tapes reporting that Modi gave the parivar goons three days post-Godhra to do their foul deeds..

Bulls..t once gain. The riots spread on February 28th and Army was on streets by March 1st. Street side Mullahs like our "harischandra" are calculating that there was no action by Modi on 29th , 30th and 31st and spread the lie that he gave 3 days for the hindu mobs to take revenge.

Bade Mian and his friends should remember that February has only 28 days !! There is no 29th, 30th and 31st in February abd hence this story of 3 days for revenge is a BIG LIE. Bade Mians Ummah still has not proclaimed a fatwa saying even february will have 31 days.

Why do you have to lie so much bade mian ?? do you have any shame ??

"below is that item in Singhal’s own words:

“Aaj Tak harped on the same old refrain that ‘Modi did not call the Army until three days had passed’. When the TV channel contacted me on phone to get my response, I told the anchor that the Godhra carnage took place on February 27, 2002, that the Hindu backlash commenced on February 28 and the Army was doing flag march on the forenoon of March 1… He cut me short by saying that ‘This is exactly what we had said, no action was taken by Modi on 29th, 30th and 31st thus giving three clear days to the murderers…’ I had to cut him short by reminding him that the date 28th was 28th of February 2002 and there were no 29th, 30th or 31st in that month. The phone was of course disconnected"

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14562098


Does your madrasa teach you that even february has 31days ?? How did you calculate 3 days between February 28th and March 1st?
Shankar
Bangalore, India
Jan 09, 2008 12:00 AM
443
By the way secular icon, Liberal Bade Mia and " Satya Harischandra" of the forum is yet to answer this question.

1. How did you say there is a 3 day gap between 28th February and March 1st of 2002 ?

3. How many days were there in February 2002 ? 28 0r 31 ? If it is 28 you have been caught lying through your skull cap once again.

3. Have you proclaimed a fatwa saying February 2002 will also have 31 days , instead of 28 , so that you can continue with your lie on modi?

Stop Lying for your Islamic cause.
Shankar
Bangalore, India
Jan 09, 2008 12:00 AM
442
>> For all we know GF is a mullah jihadi ....

How does my name get in when you are replying to something written not by me but by another poster? Why are all bigots such retards?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 09, 2008 12:00 AM
441
>> ..... is yet to answer this question.

If your post deserved any attention, I would have answered it.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 08, 2008 12:00 AM
440
Anand: The converted tribals seem to be reconverting, not for twice the money, but for no money at all, once they find they have been taken for a bad ride: churchian caste system is worse than the hindus'; besides they lost their reservation benefits after conversion! No wonder some of them vent their anger on some churches!.

I do not share your admiration for Turkey, Europe could do well without Turkey in it; they are not even being kind to the kurdish minority, kurd X turk, by very name, they certainly deserve a separate kurdistan, instead of being forced to live under turkish domination.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jan 08, 2008 12:00 AM
439
Seshadri,

"kurd X turk, by very name, they certainly deserve a separate kurdistan, instead of being forced to live under turkish domination."

>> Do you really know everything about the Kurd issue ... that you are able to make such wide pronouncements? Why would you be surprised if outsiders say the same things about Kashmiris v Indians? One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. That is the story of the world.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 08, 2008 12:00 AM
438
Labakdaas,

"Why haven't I seen any posts from you or Fakrukhi supporting the Kashmiri pandits and denouncing the Mullahs in the strongest words that you guys often use for moderate Hindus."

>> I HAVE written several times before condemning the actions of terrorists and the plight of Kashmiri pundits, on these outlook forums. You only focus on certain things I say. Sorry but I can't footnote every comment of mine with a line about the kashmiri pundits.

>> Also listen buddy, I don't have to prove my fairmindedness to you. You are going to continue to call me a muslim/whatever just because I don't agree with you. Feel free to do so. I know that bigots like you will call me names no matter what. I don't worry about such things.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 08, 2008 12:00 AM
437
Vinod,

"Why speak of KURDS Versus TURKS when the exemplary Islamic brotherhood between the Shia's and the Sunni's has become a laughing stock."

>> Unlike you, I don't take impish delight from the suffering of fellow humans.

"The pandiths are driven out becasue the Muslims in kashmir who are in a majority are trying to assert.The way how the finance minister in kashmir suggested a separate curency for Kashmir speaks volumes of the Kashmiri mindset."

>> No comments. Your understanding of kashmir's cultural and political history is just plain incorrect. No point talking to you about it.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 08, 2008 12:00 AM
436
Anand:>>"Do you really know everything"

Some youngsters who have just managed to get into US now seem to assume omni-science immediately. I was in US before your dad was born, probably, at a time when I had to explain to profs there that I was 'from India', not red 'indian'. You are welcomed there now only because of the image created by my generation, which returned to India to build up the IITs. [The Physics prof wanted me for PhD under him, while I was doing MS in EE!; the prof in purdue got annoyed bec I joined urbana for PhD!]. Arrogance and flippancy may land you in trouble not only in journals, but even in your educational environment.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jan 08, 2008 12:00 AM
435
Hindu/Bodepudi,

>> Kashmiri neighbors, of both faiths, have agreed on one thing: The Muslim fanatics had genocidally killed millions of Hindus and Buddhists, spanning several centuries.

Whether they have agreed or not, it is your sacred duty to constantly try to increase the hatred of Muslims and to exacerbate community tensions. Without such activity, however nefarious it may be, your life will be empty.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 08, 2008 12:00 AM
434
Seshadri,

"

Some youngsters who have just managed to get into US now seem to assume omni-science immediately. I was in US before your dad was born, probably, at a time when I had to explain to profs there that I was 'from India', not red 'indian'. You are welcomed there now only because of the image created by my generation, which returned to India to build up the IITs. [The Physics prof wanted me for PhD under him, while I was doing MS in EE!; the prof in purdue got annoyed bec I joined urbana for PhD!]. Arrogance and flippancy may land you in trouble not only in journals, but even in your educational environment."

>> I love your posts. They truly amuse me because not only are you a 100% bigot, but you are also a doctorate bigot. You use these forums to flaunt your "knowledge" using Sanskrit words to obfuscate the truth. I've seen too many pseudoscientists like you.

>> You were probably in the US before my dad was born. Age has clearly taken a toll on your brain.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 08, 2008 12:00 AM
433
Hindu,

"Kashmiri neighbors, of both faiths, have agreed on one thing: The Muslim fanatics had genocidally killed millions of Hindus and Buddhists, spanning several centuries"

>> Typical language of the haters who want to accuse muslims/christians etc of genocide, pogroms etc. You are truly a douchebag of the worst kind.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 08, 2008 12:00 AM
432
"Please enlighten us more about the Kashmiri ppl's problem and why Kashmiri majority is differenty from Indian Muslims"

When you ask such questions to Anand, he would say he has not done much research on that. You have to accept what he says at face value. If you ask for further details, then you dont know what you are talking about, you are a bigot............
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Jan 08, 2008 12:00 AM
431
Also if you present facts that do not conform to Anand's worldview, you are taking things out of context. But if you ask what the correct context is, then............................
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Jan 08, 2008 12:00 AM
430
" Your understanding of kashmir's cultural and political history is just plain incorrect."

So how do you explain Pandits' cleanising in Kashmir basis your understanding of 'correct Politcal History and Culture of Kashmir' -Ananad ?
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jan 07, 2008 12:00 AM
429
HappyRam/Minu,

>> Mein na Manu Sir Gulam!

This is just rubbish.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 07, 2008 12:00 AM
428
Labakdaas (get a real name!)

"Unfortunately this is what Mohammad created 1400 years back and you are just outright ignorant to acknowledge that his network has grown leaps and bounds to challenge the existence of humankind. stop supporting jehadi and missionary elements."

>> Shabaash! What a wonderful and deep understanding you have of history. A man of such deep knowledge deserves to be in a much more influential position than become a nondescript poster in this forum. That too with a retarded name like "Labakdaas."
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 07, 2008 12:00 AM
427
Labakdaas said: "Other than Turkey no other Muslim country has given any RIGHTS to minorities leave alone the RIGHT TO RELIGION."

>> This is only partly true. Indonesia the most populous muslim nation (with nearly 20% of the world's muslim population) does have a very decent minority and human rights record. Don't trust me, go look at the UN reports and the HRW reports on Indonesia.

>> I do agree that by and large muslim countries other than turkey, indonesia and possibly malaysia have done a poor job of offering adequate rights and protection to minorities.

>> We should strongly condemn this and also try not to COPY them and mistreat our own minorities. We cannot criticize someone and then copy them. That is a boneheaded thing to do.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 07, 2008 12:00 AM
426
Narendra Modi has won the Gujarat assembly elections because he was successful in fine tuning his balancing act whereby he stretched upto but did not transgress the limits which exist. Being from the business class, Modi does not entertain any illusions but is very realistic in his assessment of the possibilities. And as politics is the art of the possible, this practitioner of the game of possibilities has come up trumps.

Modi always publicly maintained that he was not communal but was for the welfare of all Gujaratis. He did not make any communal speeches; he went on record after the poll results were out by daring people to come up with an iota of communal invective in his poll speeches upon which he said that he would accept his defeat publicly. Also, no communal riots took place during the last 5 years under his CMship. The people of India including those of Gujarat are very broad minded, liberal, humanitarian and secular in the real sense. If Modi had indulged in injecting communal poison into the public domain (which would have surely led to polarisation, riots,disturbance and curfews, the business minded and secular citizens surely would have ensured his exit. His reelection points to the fact that he was not vitiating the peace and communal harmony there. Also, the desperation seen amongst the media, Congress and some sections of the society to associate him and paint him as being communal (in the Tehelka episode,the Merchant of death remark and the Sohrabuddin episode) badly backfired and increased his stature.

Additionally, his projection of a corruption free image of the govt., where he as a CM remained unmarried, coming from a family of self respecting people who did not hang around with him in the power corridors and CM bungalows must've appealed to the Gujaratis who have been subjected to shamelessly corrupt political leader class imposed on them by the Congress and Janata Dal like Chimanbhai Patel and Solanki etc.

In the final analysis, Modi’s win is due to his background coming from a business class family, who throughout their history did not have anything assured to them on the basis of their caste, but could only depend on their wits and instincts for their survival and success. One should not forget that the father of the nation, Gandhiji also came from a similar background and almost always had his finger on the pulse of the masses.
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Jan 06, 2008 12:00 AM
425
Mr Raman has at last bared his fangs!His heart is RSS and his writings are secular.Who is a pesudo secularist?One dread to think what this poisonous man would have done while in highoffice!He would have used his office to the detriment of the Muslims to the maximum.What else can expect from someone who supports a monster like Hitler(Modi)!
nasar
Raleigh, USA
Jan 06, 2008 12:00 AM
424
Seshadri,

>> There is no dichotomy in hinduism between 'beliefs' for religion and 'intellctual analysis' for sc/tech.

But your mumbo-jumbo has nothing to do with Hinduism. It is just the product of a twisted mind.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 06, 2008 12:00 AM
423
Seshadri,

>> Mohammed, in my perception, is ravan in atone-ment with sita.

You, in my perception, are a lunatic fleeing from the asylum.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 06, 2008 12:00 AM
422
GF:

Thank you for your prceptions on me. Make sure that the heat of your dislike for me does not give you a heart attack!.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jan 06, 2008 12:00 AM
421
Seshadri,

>> Make sure that the heat of your dislike for me.....

For all I know, you may be a very likeable person. It is just your views that are detestable.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 06, 2008 12:00 AM
420
Vinod,

"You need a monster to terminate an evil."

>> Precisement! This is exactly what I've been saying all along. That Vinod will accept terrorists who kill other terrorists. Doesn't realize that one day this NEW monster could become a cancer. Its amazing that you guys don't learn anything from Zia-ul-Haq/CIA-Mujahideen/Russia etc. When you create a monster, you WILL pay the price, later.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 06, 2008 12:00 AM
419
SOLILOQUIES

Attack on Christians

Soli Sorabjee

The claim to civilisation of any state should be measured by the treatment meted out to its minorities. The recent spate of attacks on Christians in Gujarat and Orissa in particular is shameful. The pretext for these attacks is that missionaries are effecting conversions with the aim of making India a Christian state. This is ludicrous. Statistics establish that against Orissa’s 3.47 crore Hindus, there are only 8,97,861 Christians. There has been no steep increase in the number of converted Christians.

Right of conversion is implicit in the guarantee of freedom of religion in our Constitution. No doubt this right is not absolute, but can be reasonably restricted on the heads specified in the Constitution. There is a law in Orissa that prohibits and punishes conversions made by force or allurement. If any person violates the law, prosecute him or her by all means. But remember that conversions do take place because of the degrading treatment meted out to the ‘untouchables’ and the prospect of a life of dignity by embracing Christianity. Besides, the law cannot be selectively applied and must be enforced also against Hindus who reconvert Christians by force and intimidation.

Indiscriminate attacks on peaceable Christians, disrupting their church services and burning their churches, especially during Christmas, is barbarous. It is hoped that Orissa Governor Murli Bhandare will put in place initiatives to restore the confidence of the Christians and to ensure adequate protection to them. (The Sunday Express).
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 06, 2008 12:00 AM
418
Vinod,

Your ramblings against muslims and christians are so utterly shameful and despicable that they lack any morality whatsoever. Maybe I hang out with liberal hindus, but honestly I've never seen so much hatred from a person before.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 06, 2008 12:00 AM
417
Vinod,

People like you have often said that Christianity and Islam sometimes converted people in India, especially the poor tribals, dalits etc. with Money.

Have you ever tried to reconvert them by giving them twice that much?

Why don't Hindus accept the fact that we have mistreated our tribal brothers and our dalit brothers very badly? And its not enough that we simply accept that intellectually. We need to deal with the realities on the ground today - stop dalit lynchings etc (which happen even today), have severe punishments for such crimes, including ostracizing such bigots from the hindu community etc. Perhaps then, slowly and surely the dalits/tribals will find no reason to become christians/muslims.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 06, 2008 12:00 AM
416
Sorabjee's remarks are so templated and typical. There is no "going in" to issues, just bland statements about right of conversion, number of Christians and attacks thereon. There is this constant thumping of the subject of the (so-called) lower castes nad their undignified treatment, with no acknowledgement of time, place, individuals, exceptions etc. in articles like these about the whole conversion controversy. Nor is there any dealing with the whole motivation of conversion and the consequences thereof. At least deal with it, even if you support the idea of the right of conversion.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jan 05, 2008 12:00 AM
415
Anand:>>"maxwell's equations and relativity have ALL been discovered before and buried in the vedas."

Largely true. Gita says: 'na-asato vidyate bhaavah, na-abhaavo vidyate satah', that which exists remains conserved, non-existent cannot come into existence; from the vacuous Absolute [God creates cosmos from out of Himself, poorNam =total =zero], matter and spirit emerge as +ve & -ve, joint-action of the two over periods makes 'lives' of all species, in dissolution they merge back into vacuous absolute again; conservation of momentum {Newton}, conservation of atoms [Dalton}, conservation of mass+energy [Einstein] are all exemplary of the above statement only.

In hindu thought vishnu brings about about union of Siva and Sakti, as seen in meenakshi temples in madurai and Texas. The proton, electron and nuetron are representative, respectively, of Siva, Sakti and vishnu: pradhaane pareSam paSyet, lekhatraaNe paraa-Saktim; navatraaNe mahaavishNum viswaSrishTikara-trayam; the nuetron is used as the 'enterer' to break nuclei for fission; vishnu literally means 'enterer' in sanskrit.

I have given Maxwell's eqns in sanskrit poems to my students in e-magn-theory classes. More of my devoted students have been non-brahmins, moslems and christians, really. The mantra for the worship of the sun-God goes: 'bhaasakaraaya vidmahe mahaa-dyuti-karaaya dheemmahi san no aadityah pracodayaat'. mahaa-dyuti means the 'fusion' in the sun and other stars. [vidyut =lightning, dyuti= elec current]. aaditya means offspring of aditi, gauree gaganadhaariNee, the gravity force holding the cosmodynamic system, it is gravity which causes fusion in stars, you should know. Pushpaka-vimana stands for plane releasing flower-like [pushpam karoti iti pushpskah] jets behind it, the modern jet plane.

The idea that humans on earth started on stone age in not true. Earth has had great civilizn in the polar-ice-cone days; egyptian pyramids built in memory of it sighted from the middle-east. Human civilization on earth is oscillatory with period of 24k years. It reached an ebb around time of Buddha's birth, now progressing; space travel etc. in store very soon. Man can live semi-divine in future, if he does not kill himself in mutual-hatred demonism too soon.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jan 05, 2008 12:00 AM
414
GF:>>"So why don't you give up your mumbo-jumbo and take up Hinduism instead?"

Over-all hindu philosophy called pranava-diyaa, [perennial philo, as per Aldous Huxley] bramha-vidyaa, includes science also:
'bramha-praNava-vidyaa saa paraa poorNaa pramaaNika, sarva-gjnaana-vigjnaanaam sootra-bhootaa sanaatanee'. There is no dichotomy in hinduism between 'beliefs' for religion and 'intellctual analysis' for sc/tech. Intellect is antar-lakshya-yantra = in-sight machine; intlligence is spiritual prompter for new knowledge configurations. What is seen by seers is 'pragjnaana', a-priori knowledge, selfevident; science is vigjnaana, viSesha-gjnaana, specially investigated knowledge; technology is tad-gjnaana, taadaarthika-gjnaana, sc apllied for specific human use. All these are non-violative of philo-knowledge of sanaatana dharma, which seeks truth, goodness and beauty thro science, humamanities and the fine arts.
If Hussain had just called his nude 'beauty divine' no hindu would have objected.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jan 05, 2008 12:00 AM
413
PKKumar:>>"adding mohammad as Kalki avatar"

There must be spiritual coherence to these peerceptions. Kalki avtar was lord Srinivasa arriving on horseback in tirumala, marking the end of kaliyuga's lowest ebb, kalikeelakah kalkih. Mohammed, in my perception, is ravan in atone-ment with sita = padma = fatima as dtr, Gabriel = gaapriya = naarada, Allah = hara = Siva. Jesus = skanda, and so on. Others may not accept.

The hindu mind sees all happenings as per will of a singular absolute only., reasons seen in the material and spiritual domain, together. Evil due to devil, prince of darkness, antichrist, Satan, does exist, bec of the head of daksha removed by kaala-bhairava, replaced by goat's head. Well, my feeling is that it has been absorbed into saturn, world may have more peace and progress, slowly . As we see, it is the bad and crooked in the world who are facing more problems. Truth will slowly triumph to bring goodness and beauty in the world.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jan 05, 2008 12:00 AM
412
actually, I think the rise of people like Modi has to do with finding a (misguided) way to compensate for the humiliation of things like the following:

"Because what’s going on in India – where surrogacy is estimated now to be a $445-million-a-year business — feels like a step toward the kind of insane dehumanization that filled the dystopic fantasies of Aldous Huxley’s “Brave New World” and Margaret Atwood’s “Handmaid’s Tale.” (One “medical tourism” website, PlanetHospital.com, refers to the Indian surrogate mother as a mere “host.”) Images of pregnant women lying in rows, or sitting lined up, belly after belly, for medical exams look like industrial outsourcing pushed to a nightmarish extreme."
source: "outsourced wombs" by Judith Warner, nytimes.com

http://warner.blogs.nytimes.com/
Arul Francis
Clayton, California
Jan 04, 2008 12:00 AM
411
Seshadri,

"but hindu scholars realized the 'ahimsaa paramo dharmah' is also the basis for hinduism."

>> This is just plain nonsense. This is not the basis of Buddhism. The four noble truths and the eight fold path did not exist in Hinduism before. This is why the Gotama rejected the idea of penance and sacrifice that previous sanyasins had followed. Seshadri, you obviously haven't cared to read about Buddhism ... simply saying "ahimsa" is also a hindu concept doesn't make Buddhism
"Siva went into medit, in padmaasana, after daakshaayani's selfimmolation, soon after himalaya formation after ice-cone-melt = ganga-come-down [biblical flood]"

Once again, some more nonsense. I asked you a simple question - show me historically when lord shiva has been shown in a padmasana pose - prior to Buddhism and you come up with more of your mumbo jumbo. Why don't you accept that you DON'T KNOW ... rather than act as if you were the living secretary of lord shiva?

"Archeology is a pseudo-science; not like physics or chemistry. Do not take it seriously. Too much faith in fossil-dating and carbon-dating will fossilize your mind and carbonize your brain. "

Sir, frankly it is your brain that is fossilized. Archaelogy is pseudo-science - thank you very much. I'll let the Harvard professors know.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 04, 2008 12:00 AM
410
Seshadri,

"I suspect you are Stephen Anand who generally writes anti-hindu articles."

>> Everyday I have a new name. Yesterday I was Adnan, now I'm stephen. But somehow I'm 100% sure that you ARE seshadri iyer, sitting at home spinning theories about how our ancient ancestors discovered everything and how the schrodinger's theory, heisenberg's principles, maxwell's equations and relativity have ALL been discovered before and buried in the vedas. I'm all too familiar with people of your type being from an iyer household myself.

"
I wish you were my student in IIT; I think my knowledge on science, philosophy, humanism is much more comprehensive than your profs in JNU or St.Stephens."

>> No comments.

"I asked a senior US prof visiting IITM whether these three are behind the major domains of science, humanities and arts in western universities. He agreed and admired the roots of hindu wisdom."

>> No one is questioning the unbridled brilliance of ancient hindu texts, the beauty of the language and the lofty philosophy. We are all blessed to have received such scriptures from our ancestors. But it is total nonsense to say that every other faith is an off-shoot of these paths. Please read about the Greeks - their philosophy is equally voluminous, amazing and takes a totally different approach to life and nature. You are clearly, as they say in Sanskrit - a "mandaka in the well."
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 04, 2008 12:00 AM
409
Seshadri,

"When gujarati hindus are driven to hide in temples in kenya, Modi wants GOI to offer them refuge in India, with no visa problems. When gujarat moslems, the offspring of arabs who came with Gazzni to attack somnath 18 times, get into trouble there, it would be appropriate if Saudi arabia had offered them free entry there without visa problems."

Seshadri is not only a bigoted idiot pretending to be a scholar, he's also a duffer when it comes to history. Ghazni wasn't an "Arab" offspring you nimrod - he was of Turkish/Persian origin.

With views like these, I'm surprised that he's a professor at a govt funded institute. I pity the non-brahmim, non-hindu students who study under him.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 04, 2008 12:00 AM
408
Seshadri,

"You are proving the perception that the converted christian becomes more anti-hindu and churchian in attitudes, than the born-christians who tend to be quite humanist, in general."

What utter nonsense! You are a born-Brahmin and virulently anti-muslim and anti-christian. Does that prove that Brahmins are hateful no matter what?
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 04, 2008 12:00 AM
407
Laad,

"Look who is talking about forcing religion on ppl, a selfstyled evangelist who is a bigtime proponent and practitioner of proselytization under the guise of a false hindu name."

>> Haha. I have a false Hindu name? YOU talking about false names? What a nitwit you are, sir LAAD LABAKDAAS.

"Let ppl be what they are don't force a semitic faith on others which has only led to Blood and nothing but BLOOD in the past."

>> Care to explain to us what the hell you are doing in a "semitic" country and surrounding yourself with semites?
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 04, 2008 12:00 AM
406
Laad,

"4. Finally the Church takes over the state and you call it democracy."

>> Unfortunately almost all christian nations are democracies today. The only Hindu state (Nepal) is undemocratic and a monarchy.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 04, 2008 12:00 AM
405
Seshdri,

Each one of the avatars of Vishnu was added to the dashavatara with the aim of integrating that community into the Sanatan Dharma fold. It worked till the turks, arabs and afghans came to India. Had they accepted the invitation of adding mohammad as Kalki avatar I doubt we would be having this debate today. May be later Christians had accepted the invitation ...
pkkumar
pune, India
Jan 04, 2008 12:00 AM
404
Seshadri,

>> Hinduism is a scientifically 'perceived' religion.

So why don't you give up your mumbo-jumbo and take up Hinduism instead?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 04, 2008 12:00 AM
403
PKKUMAR,

Why should followers of other faiths be ready to accept this "culture" absorption? Buddhists never accepted Buddha as Vishnu's avatar. Only Hindus did. And it was done primarily by Adi Shankara hundreds of centuries later to revive Hinduism from its decline and to stop people turning to Buddhism. Buddhism and Hinduism share some commonalities, as do most great religions. But that doesn't mean Hinduism = Buddhism or that Buddhism is a sub-set of Hinduism. It is both historically and logically wrong.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 04, 2008 12:00 AM
402
Seshadri,

"Hinduism is a scientifically 'perceived' religion."

>> Again, one of your classics! You really are a tease, I'm telling you.

>> There is no doubt that many components of Hindu philosophy (only philosophy) were based on observations and on reflections based on those observations. Essentially an attempt to investigate nature, man and our connection.

>> But there are many other components of the Hindu religion that are unscientific. They are too numerous for me to post. Of course, Seshadri will conveniently discredit all of them saying "oh ... they are all local beliefs. they are not REALLY part of hindu religion ..."
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 04, 2008 12:00 AM
401
>> I pity the non-brahmim, non-hindu students who study under him.

If you really were a liberal , you would be pitying all students , irresepective of their castes and religion.

The very fact that you have to see eveything through the prism of hindu / non hindu, shows that you are a pseudo liberal and a closet jihadi mullah.

No wonder you and the other funding member of CAIR in the forum, are scratching each others back all the time.
Shankar
Bangalore, India
Jan 04, 2008 12:00 AM
400
Shankar,

"If you really were a liberal , you would be pitying all students , irresepective of their castes and religion.

The very fact that you have to see eveything through the prism of hindu / non hindu, shows that you are a pseudo liberal and a closet jihadi mullah."

>> Thank you. Your calling me a mullah makes me feel like a saint. I'm not worthy of such high praise.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 04, 2008 12:00 AM
399
>>Thank you. Your calling me a mullah makes me feel like a saint.

You are most welcome. Enjoy your sainthood.

Dont worry , you will be allotted a dozen more nubile virgins than the normal 72,because of your sainthood 7 because of the tremendous work you are doing for the ummah. ( That is AFTER you finish the suicide bombing in this world)
Shankar
Bangalore, India
Jan 04, 2008 12:00 AM
398
Shankar,

"Dont worry , you will be allotted a dozen more nubile virgins than the normal 72,because of your sainthood 7 because of the tremendous work you are doing for the ummah. ( That is AFTER you finish the suicide bombing in this world)"

>> Yeah thats right. Frustrated guys like you cannot get over the promise of 72 women, that too virgins. With the abysmal sex ratios in India, I'm not surprised.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 03, 2008 12:00 AM
397
Laad Labakdaas,

"So stop kidding youself saying Tribals don't belong to Hinduism."

>> You are forcing Hinduism down the throats of people who aren't prepared to accept it. With a name like yours, I'm not surprised.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 03, 2008 12:00 AM
396
Seshadri,

"Buddha avtar only a corrective on the excessive rituality of hindus under some decay, not separate religion; sankara reintrgrated buddheism into monist hinduism."

How can someone who was born hundreds of years later decide that Buddha was an avatar of Vishnu? Buddhists dont accept this. This wasn't done just to integrate Buddhism into Hinduism, but a deliberate attempt to falsify history.

"Dakshinaamurthy in padmasana known in hinduism many millennia before Buddha avtar."

Can you prove that dakshinamurthy's padmasana pose predates buddha? What do you mean by many millenia? Care to provide proof? I'd LOVE to hear your proof. People like Seshadri have no concept of time. Some Next thing you know, he's going to tell you that neanderthals practised a version of hinduism.

Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 03, 2008 12:00 AM
395
Seshadri,

"Yes, the saastragjna-hindu just recognized them as valid forms of worship, encouraged them, even joined them, does not despise them; hence no attempt to convert them to hindu, they already are part of hinduism. Only animal sacrifice is advised against.

Chr decries them as devil-worship, converts with incentives; moslems threatened them with destruction, forced to convert. Both, naturally, opposed by hindus."

I think you have a couple of cards missing in your deck sir.

You think that throwing out a few sanskrit words here and there makes your claims of hindu history legitimate. It is total nonsense to say that tribals practised hinduism. You have no idea what you're talking about, period.

Your statements about christianity/islam as having spread through force, intimidation etc is just plain wrong.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 03, 2008 12:00 AM
394
Seshadri Iyer,

"If christians and moslems recognize that hinduism is the mother all religions instead of calling hindus pagans and kafirs, the world will soon be a better place."

Haha! You're such a tease sir, honestly.

IF you recognize that the earth is flat, the sky is blue and fish swim in water, you will manage to step into the REAL world and out of your nonsensical world of lies and imagination.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 03, 2008 12:00 AM
393
GF:
When gujarati hindus are driven to hide in temples in kenya, Modi wants GOI to offer them refuge in India, with no visa problems. When gujarat moslems, the offspring of arabs who came with Gazzni to attack somnath 18 times, get into trouble there, it would be appropriate if Saudi arabia had offered them free entry there without visa problems. Unfortunately, the saudi empire and wahaabi caliphate are not interested in the welfare of moslems anywhere; they are only interested in the geographical expansion of the landspace of the earth coming under the UMMA domain. Hold the land you have, expand further, if some of you die in the process, the caliphate will not mind it! But Alla does not approve this attitude of your caliphate, I assure you! Islamic spirituality is not geo-grabbing materialism.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jan 03, 2008 12:00 AM
392
GF:>>" I wish he had shown a fraction of this concern when Muslims in Gujarat were being killed, their women raped and their houses burned"

My feeling is that pak-infiltrators did all that to moslem shop owners with shops opened with pak-counterfeit money, for not doing any rioting against hindus. Naturally, Modi did not interfere with pak's internal problem. We know what pak soldiers did in east-pak in prebangla-desh days, Benezir's dad as pak-PM quietly approving it.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jan 03, 2008 12:00 AM
391
PKKumar:>>"Accursed gujrati is getting it from somewhere else"

You are proving the perception that the converted christian becomes more anti-hindu and churchian in attitudes, than the born-christians who tend to be quite humanist, in general.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jan 03, 2008 12:00 AM
390
Anand:

I suspect you are Stephen Anand who generally writes anti-hindu articles. Have your views if they soothe your soul. St. Peter will tell you the truth when you meet him is swarga in Jupiter's gravity-free zone, in case your soul ever gets there.

The word 'geos' in latin is from 'jiya' in sanskrit meaning 'jeeva-yaani', the only planet on which 'life' is possible in the solar system, being at the appropriate distance from the sun.
Geography, geology etc. derived from it. Thousands of years before Galileo was 'jailed' for suggesting earth being spherical and circling the sun, aarya-varta indians knew the astronomy of the solar system; valmiki and vyasa give the exact horoscopes [planetary positions] at the times of birth of Rama and Krishna. Based on them, recent astrological SW has helped fix the exact date and time of their birth, nearly 7k and 5k yrs back, respectively.

I have no interest in imposing 'hinduism' on others, since 'sanaatanna' = 'santam aatanoti' = 'gives embodiment to existing truths', needs no imposing or intellectual proving; it is like gravity or electricity: if you jump from balcony saying you do not 'believe' in gravity, you will still get hurt; same if you touch live wire, saying you do not 'believe' in electricity!
Hinduism is not a belief-based religion, only a set of reality-based perceptions by the 'seers'.
I wish you were my student in IIT; I think my knowledge on science, philosophy, humanism is much more comprehensive than your profs in JNU or St.Stephens.

Dr. Radhakrishnan used to say truth, goodness and beauty are the three basic dimensions of knowledge. I asked a senior US prof visiting IITM whether these three are behind the major domains of science, humanities and arts in western universities. He agreed and admired the roots of hindu wisdom.

Sive paSyet paSupatim, satye naaraayaNam tathaa,
soundarye ca mahaa-deveem tri-daivata-Srito narah: Siva, Vishnu, Devee, the three prime deities of hindus from time immemmorial, have been blessing them with goodness , truth and beauty in their lives in aaryavarta; will continue to so, also for all others who respect hubduism and learn fruitful ways life from it.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jan 03, 2008 12:00 AM
389
Anand:>>"How can someone who was born hundreds of years later decide that Buddha was an avatar of Vishnu?"

Hinduism is a scientifically 'perceived' religion. Vyasa wrote the bhaagavata on the many avataaras of vishnu [by spiritual insights], only after two long-life devotees hanuman and jaanbhavaan 'certified' that Rama they met 2k yrs earlier was the Krishna they met again. [krishna marries Jambavan's dtr; hanuman meets him in dwaraka].

"Buddhists dont accept this"
Budhheism exists mainly outside india today, only because buddheism and hinduism got integrated in India. Asoka embraced buddheism; but hindu scholars realized the 'ahimsaa paramo dharmah' is also the basis for hinduism. They reformed themselves, realizing that Lord Narayana himself came as Buddha to remind them of ahimsa. Saints like Jaydeva started singing praise of Vishnu, seeing Buddha as his next avtar after krishna. [It is like Siva the 'father' of christianity reappearing as Luther [=rudra= Siva = hara =alla, (r->l)] to reform christianity from the churchianity it had deteriorated into; unfortunately, same thing happening again.]

>>" Can you prove that dakshinamurthy's padmasana pose predates buddha? What do you mean by many millenia? Care to provide proof?"
I'd LOVE to hear your proof. People like Seshadri have no concept of time."

Siva went into medit, in padmaasana, after daakshaayani's selfimmolation, soon after himalaya formation after ice-cone-melt = ganga-come-down [biblical flood]; rama [ranganatha in sreeranga], krishna [guruvayurappan in kerala], buddha, venkatesa in tirupathi, Sankara, Jesus/Christ, Nabhi in arabia, aaryapa in sabarimala with moslem devotee called babar, all later, one after the other, hundreds of yrs' separations. God's kindness to man has been sequential, unending..

>>"Some Next thing you know, he's going to tell you that neanderthals practised a version of hinduism."

Archeology is a pseudo-science; not like physics or chemistry. Do not take it seriously. Too much faith in fossil-dating and carbon-dating will fossilize your mind and carbonize your brain. Any large meteorite or flood can relocate fossils or stones. Leave them to the communists for the cooking up of indian history to please their anti-indeian paymasters.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jan 03, 2008 12:00 AM
388
Laady writes:

>>Couldn't have said better.

Admitting to be not able to clear lowest of standards?

>>While true Christians are broughtup on Christian values rather than hate speeches, the converted ones are B****ards of Christianity who are broughtup with only the sole aim of hating thy neighbours.

For this analytical machine "true" Christians are the "unconverted" ones. In other words, birth is entirely deterministic. Choice is bad.

>>No wonder the Indian Christians are hallucinated enough to deny reality.

For that to happen all of them would have to be "converted" per your dichotomy! You were saying something about hallucinating and denying reality? Stick to computer-code, monkey boy.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
Jan 03, 2008 12:00 AM
387
V. Seshadri writes:

>>I suspect you are Stephen Anand who generally writes anti-hindu articles. Have your views if they soothe your soul. St. Peter will tell you the truth when you meet him is swarga in Jupiter's gravity-free zone, in case your soul ever gets there.

I suspect you are Toxic Creature who generally writes nonsensical blather. Have your views if you have a soul. St. Bart Simpson will tell you to eat his shorts when you meet him in senile-swarga in Seshadri's brain-free zone, in case you get soul in the interim.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
Jan 03, 2008 12:00 AM
386
Laadu writes:

>>Obviously anything digging at the fake concept of Christianity is of a lower standard.

dig to the best of your inability...

>>Its rather started as a cult following by crooks and criminals who burnt non-believers alive.

Not only your history, but your English needs helps. Lucky you need only Gomputer Skillz, yah?

>>All Chrisitians in India were and are being converted for a bag of rice and pennies you douche bag.

Whatever you say, you used tampon...

>>This itself proves how hallucinated you are.

What is "this"?

>>And regarding me being a computer programmer keep your hallucinated idiocities coming.

There are idiocies and idiots. Idiocies of idiots like you result in made up words like idiocities. But then using words correctly isn't necessary for Gomputer coding right?

>>Bottom line is yours is not even religion of god its a religion in the name of GOD.

With such distinctions, you erase any differences between you and a dead tree stump.

>>That is the difference you lost soul.

I know exactly where to my sole...its stuck in your behind from all my butt-kicking.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
Jan 03, 2008 12:00 AM
385
Seshadri,

>> When gujarati hindus are driven to hide in temples in kenya, Modi wants GOI to offer them refuge in India, with no visa problems. When gujarat moslems, the offspring of arabs who came with Gazzni to attack somnath 18 times, get into trouble there, it would be appropriate if Saudi arabia had offered them free entry there without visa problems.

Concern on our part for the safety of Gujarati's in Kenya is good, but their safety is the primary responsibility of the government of Kenya. The safety of Gujarati Muslims is the responsibility of the government of Gujarat. Prime Minister Vajpayee had to remind Modi sternly after the Gujarat massacre that he should follow "raj dharma". Your post is therefor extremely vicious and ignorant.

>> My feeling is that pak-infiltrators did all that to moslem shop owners with shops opened with pak-counterfeit money, for not doing any rioting against hindus.

You should consider psychiatric consultation as a matter of priority for your own good.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 03, 2008 12:00 AM
384
Christianity has many components of Buddhism. Buddha lived few centuries before Christ and there are great parallels between both of their lives. Buddha tried to accommodate his enlightened message in the Indian milieu of "their are many paths to life" while Christ tried to fit his message in the semitic perspective of "there is only one way". There are more than 300 million Buddhists, most of them living outside India. As Chinese government seems to ease restrictions of religions, the statistics of Buddhists will shoot to twice or thrice the figure because there many Buddhists in China, apart from Confucians. Buddhism in 21st century will give Christianity a run for it's money. But it's unfortunate that the motherland of Buddhism, Bihar, seems to be affected with chaos, corruption and utter lawlessness, and being seen as the most backward region in Asia. Hope the termination of Lalu rule will pave way for new energy in Bihar. If regions like Bihar march ahead, India will march ahead with exponential speeds.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Jan 02, 2008 12:00 AM
383
HappyRam/Minu,

>> WHY 85 % PEOPLE CAN'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO DECIDE WHAT IS WRONG OR RIGHT ?

When will you learn the difference between democracy and majoritarian dictatorship?


http://usinfo.state.gov...principles/majority.htm
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 02, 2008 12:00 AM
382
HappyRam/Minu,

>> "Why is stoking Muslims ‘secular’ and stoking Hindus ‘communal’? "

After all your pretense of not being a bigot, you are these days showing yourself in your true colors!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 02, 2008 12:00 AM
381
It should not be too difficult to accept most of the arguments offered by Raman for Modi's popularity. However, it is a sad day for democracy if the price for Hindu assertion of its pride has to come in the arms of pogroms against innocent members of minority groups, and the jettisoning of the process and rule of law. Raman's comments on practices and beliefs of Islamic countries and some Islamic practices deserves a reasoned response, and if that is not forthcoming, a serious introspection, from those who defend such practices. However, for any body to go over to practices endorsed or encouraged by Modi, for example during 2002 riots, would indeed be a distorted response. Islamic practices, indeed all religious practices, (or practices of religious people)which invite criticism, need to be articulated and highlighted in the manner done by Raman, not by letting rogues bend rule of law, fairness and justice.
When senior, though retired, government officials like Raman support such a phenomenon, it is one more reason to shiver, other than the cold.
Salman Kureishy
Dubai, U.A.E
Jan 02, 2008 12:00 AM
380
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 02, 2008 12:00 AM
379
Accursed gujrati is getting it from somewhere else.Yee Haw! Secondly, modi has its tail firmly tucked inside his hind legs while he had to prostrate hikmself before manmohan singh. he did not try to talk to kenyan leader like he openly talks to sundry world during his speeches on stage which proves that it is only bombast. Secondly he did not plan to send his proved "braves" to save gujrati from rampaging mobs, may be with out colluding police and home minister they don't feel so brave afterall. Finally, it is surprising that he is protesting because kenyans are only doing what he did some years back in gujrat and so far he has shown no remorse. Talk about double standards. What you do unto others ........


http://www.topnews.in/n...hit-expats-kenya-210788


Narendra Modi urges Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to assist violence-hit expats in Kenya
Posted January 2nd, 2008 by Mohit JoshiManmohan Singh Narendra Modi Ahmedabad Ahmedabad, Jan 2: Expressing concern over attacks on Gujarati expatriates in Kenya, Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi wrote a letter to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh urging him to ensure their safety in that country.

Modi has asked Dr. Singh to take up the issue with the Kenyan Government to ensure safety of Gujaratis in Kenya.

In his letter, Modi voiced concern over the safety of about 400 Gujaratis who have taken shelter in a Swaminarayan temple in Kisumu, a town located in Western part of Kenya.

"I request the Indian Government to immediately beef up security for our Indian brothers in Kenya. Indian youth in Kenya who want to return should be brought back, and if required through the sea route or they should be taken to Nirobi and arrangements made for their stay there. Since their houses have been burnt, missing documents must be overlooked and they should be allowed to move to safer areas without any hitch, keeping in mind their Indian blood," said Modi.

Ever since post-election riots broke out in Kenya, the Gujarati diaspora has been living in fear.

Hundreds of Gujarati businessmen have taken shelter in a temple in the Kenyan town of Kisumu after the violence.

Offices and factories belonging to Gujaratis had been looted and their houses attacked by residents.

With defeated Kenyan presidential challenger Raila Odinga sticking to his guns after an allegedly rigged election and freshly re-elected President Mwai Kibaki vowing to assert his authority, the east African nation is locked in a crippling crisis.

Scores of people were killed and several thousand have fled after President Mwai Kibaki was declared the winner in a disputed election. The estimated death toll has risen to about 250 till today.

Police beat protesters and flushed looters out of buildings in Nairobi's Kibera slum, which is within opposition leader Raila Odinga's constituency.

Kenyan opposition supporters burnt houses in Nairobi's Korogocho slum as police fired teargas and shots in the air to disperse the crowd.

Much of the fighting pitched Luos, who support opposition leader Raila Odinga, against Kibaki's ethnic Kikuyu group.

There are about 43,000 Gujaratis in Nairobi and about 3,000 in Kisumu. (ANI)
pkkumar
pune, India
Jan 02, 2008 12:00 AM
378

Accursed gujrati is getting it from somewhere else.Yee Haw!


The hate filled pseudo secular mentality in full view, if the gujjus had a Muslim name these same scumbags would have been wailing and crying and Manmohan Singh would have missed sleep.

B Bhattacharyya
Morrisville, USA
Jan 02, 2008 12:00 AM
377
"I request the Indian Government to immediately beef up security for our Indian brothers in Kenya. Indian youth in Kenya who want to return should be brought back, and if required through the sea route or they should be taken to Nirobi and arrangements made for their stay there. Since their houses have been burnt, missing documents must be overlooked and they should be allowed to move to safer areas without any hitch, keeping in mind their Indian blood." (Narendra Modi).

While I fully support Modi's call for doing everything possible to help Gujaratis in Kenya, I wish he had shown a fraction of this concern when Muslims in Gujarat were being killed, their women raped and their houses burned. Modi and his police and fire fighters looked the other way while these atrocities were going on. Did not those Muslims have Indian blood too? Were they not Gujarati enough?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 01, 2008 12:00 AM
376
Seshadri,

"Heaven stands for havana-bhaava, being in tune with the absolute, the lord in heaven"

>> Heaven = Havana-bhaava? Haha. Seshadri's ability to find a Sanskrit root to every concept is amusing and in this case, nonsensical. The root of the term heaven is "himin."

You are also right about the converted minorities in India being more conversionist, like the tail-lost monkey trying to impose tail-loss on all monkeys.

>> You are a converted Hindu. You have converted from Hinduism to an Islamic/Christian version of Hindutva. This version prevents people from choosing their faiths.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 01, 2008 12:00 AM
375
Ahmed[Anant]:>>"Seshadri'stability to find a Sanskrit root to every concept is amusing and in this case, nonsensical. The root of the term heaven is "himin."

Sanskrit is the mother of all indo-european languages, written left to right, not arabic written right to left. In international linguistic conferences, sanskrit grammar has been recognized the most perfect; in the design of artificial intelligence systems for inter-language translations, sanskrit is used as the intermediate language, by the computer scientists in Cambridge and Harward. 'heaven = havan' makes much more 'sense' than 'heaven=himin'. 'gjnaana' in Sanskrit has become 'knowledge' in English, 'agree-kalaa', meaning 'first art reqd', has become 'agriculture'. It is your unjustified arrogance which appears to be 'anant', endless and meaningless, like your invented name.

Of course, I can understand the arrogance-based 'presumed wisdom' habits of asura-beeja adamogenic arabs, like you; they took the zero, decimal system and numerals from India and passed them on to Europe as 'arabic numerals'!. Hara-paalita, Saivaite, civilization of 'harappa' on the sindh river is as old as aarya-varta, confirmed by archeologists. The pakis teach their kids that civilizn there started with arrival of gazzni and islam there! Hiranya-kasipu [later born as ravan, mohammed, aurangazeb] taught kids he was God, God as nrusimha killed him. Pakistan is also getting destroyed for living on falsehood. satyam eva jayate! asatyam naSyate kshipram!
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jan 01, 2008 12:00 AM
374
Anand:>>"You are a converted Hindu"

If your are a hindu, you should know that there is no conversion into or out of hinduism. All believers in any form of godhead are only hindus.
For me, jesus = skanda, Christ = Sankara = Siva = Hara = Allah. I have spiritually experienced both Jesus and Allah; I have only respect and reverence for christianity and islam.

My objections are only to churchianity as a worldwide 'business' [churches are running tax-exempt social services and entertainment in US these days], and mullayism and fatwaraj as a supernational form of social autocracy over all the moslems of the world.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jan 01, 2008 12:00 AM
373
GF:

You should be careful about loose statements like myself having been a mullah in my previous birth, etc. You imply that a mullah can be reborn a 'kafir' hindu, instead of only going to heaven to be attended by all the 72 virgins there! This is real blasphemy on your part! Your local mulla of New York may issue a 'fatwa' for your being exterminated!.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jan 01, 2008 12:00 AM
372
Seshadri,

>> You imply that a mullah can be reborn a 'kafir' hindu.

Mullahs who preach that 9/11 was the work of Jews get reborn as Shesadris who preach that the Gujarat massacres were perpetrated by Pakistanis disguised as Hindu tribals!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 01, 2008 12:00 AM
371
HappyRam/Minu,

>> The NEW YEAR's GIFT AND LATEST CONTRIBUTION TO INDIA ACKNOWLEGED !

Your sole business in life seems to be to copy paste anti-Muslim stuff from all over the internet. Your sole aim in life is to increase hatreds and ill feelings. How can you live with yourself?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 01, 2008 12:00 AM
370
This is from the Tam Bram brigade. One of the turncoat who hide their true affiliations while in civil service at the same time working to undermine the state for their fascist master. These people when they retire or go senile start showing true colors. "real secularist" Yeah right! I hope you're happy in your cuckoo world and keep dreaming about bring back manusmriti as india's consitution.
sanjay misra
Tumkur, India
Jan 01, 2008 12:00 AM
369
Seshadri,

"If your are a hindu, you should know that there is no conversion into or out of hinduism. All believers in any form of godhead are only hindus."

>> You are mistaken Seshadri merely because you have not bothered to study the growth of Hinduism in India. Firstly, there is nothing in our tradition that prohibits conversion. Secondly, Hinduism spread through a process of "assimilation" by either converting people who believed in pagan gods or animist spirits, or by assimilating their gods into the pantheon.

>> Famous instance: Shankaracharya converted Badrinath and Kedarnath, both of which were Hinayana buddhist temples into Hindu temples. (It is not a coincidence that they resemble Buddhist viharas ... unsual among temples in that region, nor that the deity takes the padmasana pose, a common bodhisatvic position). Of course Hindus who think that their faith is somehow infintely fluid and all encompassing gloss over all these important historical truths.

>> Also, if there is no conversion in/out of Hinduism why do you keep harping on conversions?

>> Even today in India, there are many who live in tribal areas, villages and jungles who practice a faith system that is neither Hindu nor Christian or islamic in nature. Christians/Muslims are trying to convert them into their fold. Hindus don't want to convert (except when the extremist goons intervene), instead they are using the trick of calling them Hindu, even though they themselves don't know it/don't accept it.

"For me, jesus = skanda, Christ = Sankara = Siva = Hara = Allah. I have spiritually experienced both Jesus and Allah; I have only respect and reverence for christianity and islam."

>> I don't know whether you respect and revere christianity and islam, but most of the things you say contradict this. Plus your desire to equate monotheism with polytheism is structurally and intellectually wrong.

"My objections are only to churchianity as a worldwide 'business' [churches are running tax-exempt social services and entertainment in US these days], and mullayism and fatwaraj as a supernational form of social autocracy over all the moslems of the world."

>> Agree with you on this.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 01, 2008 12:00 AM
368
Sanjay:>>"the Tam Bram brigade"

Ture I am a tamil brahmin, but not casteist as you suspect. I have never hid my caste, only avoided Iyer from my name, since our generation in tamilnad wanted to keep caste, creed only to the house and places of worship.

I have had 'Misra' boys as students, they were brahmins of UP. You are probably from misra-desa = Egypt, salam. You may rest assuured manusmriti will not be imposed on modern India. You may, anyway, feel free to leave India for Egypt, where nabhi-smriti alone prevails.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jan 01, 2008 12:00 AM
367
ANANT:>>"there is nothing in our tradition that prohibits conversion"

True, if someone starts saying krishTaaya namah instead of krishNaaya namah, he still worships the same Absolute by another name. Voluntary changes of names, forms of worship not prohibited. KrishNa = attractor of devotees, KrishTa = attracted to devotees, both true of the Absolute. He receives all worship at the level of perceptions of the worshipper, only frowns on killings or violence as part of any worship. Sankara stopped the misguided animal sacrifice done as worship, even in kamaakshi temple of Kanchi.

An english lady came to my house with boy-son, wanted to say Lord's prayer in my house, I let her do it; before she could tell me I should henceforth go only to church and put money only there, I gave her my sloka on Jesus, she ran away scared with her son!

Churchian conversion has nothing to do with anything divine, only with diversion of funds to the coffers of the church concerned. It is such 'clientele-conversion' which hindus oppose. If churchian greed does not stop, Jesus who has already 'returned' to his earlier status as Skanda, will simply use His spear to destroy Rome and London.

When I see the crescent on mosque-top, I see it as chandra-mouleeswara linga = siva = hara = allah. When imams inside the vayu-linga-mosque preach death to idol-worshippers, the vayu-linga is likely to turn into agni-linga and burn them. More and more mosques are getting blasted bec of the fury of Allah.

If christians and moslems recognize that hinduism is the mother all religions instead of calling hindus pagans and kafirs, the world will soon be a better place.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jan 01, 2008 12:00 AM
366
Anant:>>"Shankaracharya converted Badrinath and Kedarnath"

Buddha avtar only a corrective on the excessive rituality of hindus under some decay, not separate religion; sankara reintrgrated buddheism into monist hinduism. Dakshinaamurthy in padmasana known in hinduism many millennia before Buddha avtar.

>>" infintely fluid and all encompassing gloss"

It is a patronizing description of the broad-based nature of hinduism, allowing all worship-forms, with faith and humility, without violence,
meeting the needs of perceptions and customs of people at varied levels of culture and sophistication. [10 different marriage-patterns recognized in prehistoric india]. Nowadays, IT-prone devotees worship Venkateswara via the desktop computer screen. He exists in the electronic patterns also.

>>"tribal areas, villages and jungles who practice a faith system that is neither Hindu nor Christian or islamic in nature."

Yes, the saastragjna-hindu just recognized them as valid forms of worship, encouraged them, even joined them, does not despise them; hence no attempt to convert them to hindu, they already are part of hinduism. Only animal sacrifice is advised against.

Chr decries them as devil-worship, converts with incentives; moslems threatened them with destruction, forced to convert. Both, naturally, opposed by hindus.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jan 01, 2008 12:00 AM
365
My two posts below addressing Anand from Santa Clara were wrongly posted under the "Comme Ci, Comme Ca" thread.
Narsing Gowd
Secunderabad, India
Dec 31, 2007 12:00 AM
364
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> Swearing allegiance means that one will not join any activity, say muslim terrorist groups, communists etc. This is clear.

This is clear. Only someone dense would have to spell it out.

>> For muslims Islam is numero uno for them, and
there can be problems when the loyalty to USA can be in conflict with Islam.

Jews who support Israel, and Roman Catholics who support the Vatican take the same oath. By the way, the oath does not require people to be "Good Germans". Read the Nuremberg Judgement!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 31, 2007 12:00 AM
363
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> Muslims feel that the history of India started
with the entry of Islam into India.

Only Muslims who are idiots like you.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 31, 2007 12:00 AM
362
I agree with what Mr Raman has had to say. The vadodra incident was a point in example. The so called secularists were all up in arms at the vandalism of "art" scriptures. I am all for freedom of expression but this does not mean they have a right to hurt the feelings of others. I dare anyone to do the same with the prophet and get away with it! I bet these "secularists" would be singing a different tune the.
WOuld like to end my rave by saying that I condemn the Godra riots and do think that Modi is guilty. But then again I feel Rajiv Gandhi was responsible for the Sikh riots of 1984
ankur
dundee, United Kingdom
Dec 29, 2007 12:00 AM
361

Hello Mr.Raman-

It's good to read your 'The Secular Hypocrisy' column. This time, you've moved away from Security and Terrorism and brought out a new column that will infuse tension among religious blinds.

While the media freedom has already gone to DOGS in the advent of Technology and FDIs, educated and elderly journo like you, should NOT sound fanatic of the so called 'beliefs'.

Eye for an eye will make the world blind.

Hindus (except brahmins) are known for their egalitarian attitude. In each region, the population majority/minority index changes due to various parameters.

* Christians are minotrity in Gulf and Asia
* Muslims are minotrity across the globe (demur Arabia)
* Hindus are minority across the globe (demur India and Nepal)
* Buddhist are minorty across the globe (demur China, Sri Lanka, and in S/FE Asian countires)

The same is with Jainsm, Sikhism, Judaism, etc.

So, religions are a set of principles that details certain 'DOs and DONTs' experienced by our forefathers. It does not have to be a 'Standard Guide'. If you follow all of them, then you and your life will turn out to be a TEMPLATE (where you can not improvise).

Don't try to bite a dog because it bit you!

Narendar Modi is a growing icon of the current Indian politics. People do aware of it. However, a senior sectarian like you should not heap laurels or sound like COMMONS.

Being not balanced in writing also is considered to be a secular hypocrite.
Sasi KC
Reston, United States
Dec 29, 2007 12:00 AM
360
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> You are a muslim and should abide by the commands of the prophit Mohammet.

Mohammed's commands as enunciated by the idiot Bagai?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 29, 2007 12:00 AM
359
An Iranian writes a book on India :


http://www.nytimes.com/.../27jaha.html?8bu&emc=bu
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 29, 2007 12:00 AM
358
Anand:>>"Verse 42 of the Gita says "samo damas tapah saucham kshantir arjavam eva cha" ... go and check the translation for that. You'll understand why you are not a real Hindu then. "

Verse number is being given, without giving chapter number. Perhaps Anand thinks gita is a chapter-less series of verses. I understand, nowadays, some moslems also learn sanskrit, to show off false scholarship, pretend knowledge of hindu scriptures, etc. He seems to have just picked up a book on gita with transliteration of the slokas and translation of meanings. "S" in soucham, samah needs to be shown with capital to distinguish it from 's' in sarpa, for example.

The poem is no 42 in in the 18th chapter of gita [last chapter], describing the characteristics reqd of brahmins [not all hindus, as claimed by Ahmed]; other characteristics reqd of kshatriyas, vaiSyas and Soodras are described separately in the next two verses. [Classification, profession-wise, not birthbased]. His claiming that all hindus should have these chcs, as per gita, confirms my suspicion that it is an 'Ahmad' writing as Anand.

Original name for hinduism is sanaatana-dharma, of aarya-varta, sapta-sindhu, subcontinent of 7 rivers. [ganga, yamuna, etc ...sindhu, kaveri]; sindhu has become 'hindu' in midwest, west, for people beyond the sindh-river, to be attacked, colonized, of course.

Ahmed seems to know Seshadris would mostly be iyengars. True, but I happen to be Iyer, like diwan seshadri iyer of mysore; my grand-dad of same name was diwan of sivaganga. I retired as prof [EE] of IITM over a decade back, more recently as professor emeritus of SSNCE. Dozens of my students are professors in US univs. Did my grad-work in US in 1959-61; have been visiting prof in WG, UK. Just for info, not requesting any respect from Gulam or his psuedonym Ahmed = Anand. Happy with title of "idiot" already conferred by Gulam.

Chaitanya, I think uou and I are wasting our time and energy posting comments into the basically anti-hindu and anti-india magazinde called OUTLOOK.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 29, 2007 12:00 AM
357
Seshadri,

>> not requesting any respect from Gulam or his psuedonym Ahmed = Anand.

Even with all your credentials you score poorly when it comes to identifying posters.

>> Happy with title of "idiot" already conferred by Gulam.

Some of your posts are idiotic. You are not an idiot, just a tad mullahish.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 29, 2007 12:00 AM
356
Congress, in its zeal to gain world approval as the guradians of democracy, and mosre importantly, and the goodwill of its home-grown 'minorities' has made Hindu-bashing central to it's secular ideology.
In Cong's lexicon and that of it's parners, the treacherous Communist scumbags, 'secualar' menas anti-Hindu, and naone wanting to claim to being 'secular', must first become Hindu-bashers of the highest order, like the Arundhati Roys, Brinda Krarats, Jyoti basus et al of this fetid stinking land.
Apparently, and mysteriously it seems, these Cong hypocrites have forgotten that this is Hindustan - the land of Hindus. And yes, Hindus are a very tolerant bunch, but even tolerance has its limits, especially when those who should know better, act as though they just fell off a space-ship from another planet, like the MMS-Sonia duo.
Bodh
Springfield, United States
Dec 29, 2007 12:00 AM
355
Thomasmid:>>"India would have been more peaceful without the additional problems of these converted minorities. These empty headed people with delusions of getting salvation and going to heaven , are the source of many of Indias problems. The pity of this all is that none of these guys will go to heaven. The simple reason being that it does not exist, except for very imaginative and deluded souls."

In full agreement with you.
Heaven stands for havana-bhaava, being in tune with the absolute, the lord in heaven, He in you and you in Him, inclusive feeling for all living beings in the universe. Vaikunta, is the yagjna-kunta of the heart of the Siva-yogee, goodness-entuned, where the protector-stabilizer of the cosmos, vishnu, is actively cognized, providing spiritual revival and confidence to the soul. [Swarga is an entirely different reality, a zero-gravity zone in the jupiter neighborhood].

You are also right about the converted minorities in India being more conversionist, like the tail-lost monkey trying to impose tail-loss on all monkeys. The priest-class among them get funds from abroad promising conversions, and pursue conversion vigorously to justify getting more such funds, necessary for maintaining their churchian establishments and staff. Things may tone down, if donors from abroad clearly say they give money only for establishment expenses, conversions not insisted upon. In that situation, only some voluntary conversions will happen, not the trickery of the tribals and dalits.

When converted SC/ST also demand reservation benefits, clashes of vested interests will surely happen, as in Orissa, now.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 29, 2007 12:00 AM
354
Thomasmid:>>"India would have been more peaceful without the additional problems of these converted minorities. These empty headed people with delusions of getting salvation and going to heaven , are the source of many of Indias problems."

Seshadri:>> "In full agreement with you."

Seems the Village Idiots' Convention is on.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 29, 2007 12:00 AM
353
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> Swearing allegiance to the American flag implies swearing loyalty to the US, above and beyong anything else, includein Islam.

Don't be stupid. Christians, Jews, Muslims and Hindus take the same oath of allegiance. It has nothing to do with God or religion. How come you are so dense?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 28, 2007 12:00 AM
352
Chaitanya,

>> In this forum the only guy who goes on a rampage abusing Hindus is Faruki.

Let me ask you again to give some examples of my abusing Hindus. If you cannot come up with any examples, it means that you are either a liar or a moron. And please do not cite my attacks on Bagai or Bodepudi or you or other bigots who have made a habit of abusing Islam or abusing me. Have I ever attacked Hinduism or the Hindu community?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 28, 2007 12:00 AM
351
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> Why are people of all religions so much involved
in supporting their particular brand, when the rest of the western and nonmuslim world is discarding religion.

Read European history. They and us are in different time zones.

>> Mohammet did ask muslims to live in Darul Islam, and not is Darul Harb-
Not doing so is pure opportunism.

By your logic, a bigot like you living in a liberal country like Denmark is pure opportunism (we know you are not in Norway!).
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 28, 2007 12:00 AM
350
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> Muslims and Hindus have quite different views about nationality. This creates problems.

Especially if one thrives on creating problems.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 28, 2007 12:00 AM
349
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> Will a muslim in the US army refuse to swear allegiance.

Neither America nor France require the citizens to "worship" the country. Muslims swear allegiance to the American flag and they do serve in th US military
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 28, 2007 12:00 AM
348
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> Hajis should be more proud. How can they accept
help from Kaffirs.

right. But I do not know any group in India which would refuse money which is coming their way.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 28, 2007 12:00 AM
347
Gulam Faruki,

>> Neither America nor France require the citizens to "worship" the country.

Ideally there should not be conflict between one's religion and national interest.
But in case it happens, choice is clearly for nation's allegiance.

I think your confuse about "worship" something else arise from monotheism inherent in Islam. But you should grow in this controversy and seperate church and state once you leave mosque.
Rajesh
Phoenix, United States
Dec 28, 2007 12:00 AM
346
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> Who has given the job of attacking bigots.

It must be 2 AM in Denmark. Stop drinking and go to bed.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 28, 2007 12:00 AM
345
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> Who has given the job of attacking bigots.

It must be 2 AM in Denmark. Stop drinking and go to bed.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 28, 2007 12:00 AM
344
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> Who has given the job of attacking bigots.

It must be 2 AM in Denmark. Stop drinking and go to bed.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 28, 2007 12:00 AM
343
Rajesh,

>> Ideally there should not be conflict between one's religion and national interest.
But in case it happens, choice is clearly for nation's allegiance.

There is no question of choosing between religion and national interest here. It is simply a question of choosing the best way to salute our nation. It should not be difficult to find a way of saluting the nation that is not offensive to anyone. If this is not possible, and a national song is picked that conflicts with someone's religious beliefs, then at least those who object to it should not be forced to sing it. However the aim of the saffron gang is not to find solutions, but to humiliate. The question, "What comes first, national allegiance or religion?" should never arise, because nation and faith belong to different spheres.

>> But you should grow in this controversy and seperate church and state once you leave mosque.

I have no problem doing that, but different people are at different levels of concreteness in thinking. A solution satisfactory to all is possible if one wanted to find it. Not wanting a solution may be half the problem.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 28, 2007 12:00 AM
342
mr raman is supposed to be an ex-RAW agent.
if an ex-RAW agent can so openly admire a politician who has openly told an audience that it is okay to kill an accused without having to produce him in court, its easy to understand why an entire state is so much in awe of the politician.
is being proud to be an hindu an justification for killing another person simply because he isnt a hindu?
GOD forgive people for sometimes they do forget that you do exist.
as for mr raman, im sorry to say i have lost all respect for your columns because now i acknowledge that your columns are no longer balanced but totally prejudiced.
r
d, d
Dec 28, 2007 12:00 AM
341
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> Thank god I am not a muslim.

Thank God you are not a Muslim!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 28, 2007 12:00 AM
340
NEWS 1:
Shiv Sena activists today attacked an exhibition of paintings by acclaimed painter M F Husain in the capital, damaging two of his works on display.

The pamphlet released by Mangat Ram Munde, Delhi unit president of Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarti Sena, Shiv Sena's students wing, alleged that "Husain have made many obscene paintings of Hindu Gods and Goddesses.

NEWS 2:
At least 12 churches and prayer houses in rural areas were torched and a Congress MP's house was attacked in violence for the fourth consecutive day in Orissa's tribal dominated Kandhamal district today.

Saffron activists and Kui tribals, opposing tribal status to Christians belonging to SC 'Pana' group joined hands, with clashes breaking out at Brahmanigaon in Daringbadi area.

WHAT'S IN COMMON?

People doing the diry work are all either from low caste communities or are stupid tribals.

MUNDE - A Mali backward and low caste
KUI Tribals

LMAO!
Raj
Chicago, United States
Dec 28, 2007 12:00 AM
339
Gulam Faruki,

>> the aim of the saffron gang is not to find solutions, but to humiliate

I agree with you. Now that you know their intention, don't play into their hand.
Agenda of Hindu fanatics revolve around Muslims. Their goal of life is to provoke Muslims in all possible ways, such as songs of their choosing.
My suggestion is - don't engage with them. It only fuels their agenda. Denying attention will ensure their natural death. They need to be countered, but not in their turf.

If you do need to counter then hit where it hurts. Challenge their casteist mindset. They deny entree to SC/STs to their temple and then whine if they go elsewhere.
Rajesh
Phoenix, United States
Dec 28, 2007 12:00 AM
338


If you do need to counter then hit where it hurts. Challenge their casteist mindset. They deny entree to SC/STs to their temple and then whine if they go elsewhere.



Dear Quisling Jaichand,

That would be disastrous step to take for a Jihadi like Ghulam, because people will simply point out that no one excels the Muslims in killing, raping and oppressing each other.

Look at the Shia vs. Sunni slugfest in Iraq, the frequent blowing up of mosques (even rival sunni groups are blowing each other mosques) in the land of the pure.

One can also point out how the Shias were massacred by Mushy, the darling of Indian secularists, for daring to protest the Islamiyat curriculum in schools which imposed the Sunni way of worship on students.

The only time Muslims come together when they have a common kafir to kill.
B Bhattacharyya
Morrisville, USA
Dec 28, 2007 12:00 AM
337
Who are these Hindu fanatics, and what are they so fanatic about? There are simply lots of people who dislike the policies of the Congress Party and the mentality of the secular establishment. Then there are significant numbers who, with good reason, possess an utter disdain mixed with apprehension for Islam and Moslems collectively. And this because of the dogmatism, rigidity, sepratism and fanaticism of Moslems historically and in the present.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 28, 2007 12:00 AM
336
Varun Shekar writes:

>>Who are these Hindu fanatics,

Look in the mirror.

>>and what are they so fanatic about?

You tell us.

>>There are simply lots of people who dislike the policies of the Congress Party and the mentality of the secular establishment. Then there are significant numbers who, with good reason, possess an utter disdain mixed with apprehension for Islam and Moslems collectively. And this because of the dogmatism, rigidity, sepratism and fanaticism of Moslems historically and in the present.

As I said, look in the mirror.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
Dec 28, 2007 12:00 AM
335
There are posters in this forum who think they represent the "West", particularly America, looking down on Indians and Hindus as inferior beings. You can tell by the absense of any feeling for the country or its history, and any indentification thereof. And also the absence of any critical references to those Western countries.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 28, 2007 12:00 AM
334
Rajesh:>>"They deny entree to SC/STs to their temple and then whine if they go elsewhere."

You have a very valid point. Those who deny any human entry into any hindu temple are the arrogant sinners who will go to hell, denied access to the absolute, as He himself says in the Gita that all worshippers of any godhead with humility and faith only worship Him. Where this happens, it must be opposed by all, hindus and others.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 28, 2007 12:00 AM
333
And, Rajesh, incidentally: Those churchian priests who approach the dalits and tribals in India and tell them that the deities in hindu temples are devils and advise them to put their money only in church hundies, they will also only go to hell, never reach heaven.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 28, 2007 12:00 AM
332
Varun Shekar writes:

>>There are posters in this forum who think they represent the "West", particularly America, looking down on Indians and Hindus as inferior beings.

What about those who speak for themselves? In the "Republic," Plato says the well-nurtured youth is one "who would see most clearly whatever was amiss in ill-made works of man or ill-grown works of nature, and with a just distaste would blame and hate the ugly even from his earliest years and would give delighted praise to beauty, receiving it into his soul and being nourished by it, so that he becomes a man of gentle heart." Being a well-nurtured youth, it is my dharma is to look down on WHATEVER or WHOEVER is ugly with "a just distaste..."

>>You can tell by the absense of any feeling for the country or its history, and any indentification thereof.

As if treacly and mawkish sentimentality were appropriate substitute...

>>And also the absence of any critical references to those Western countries.

When such critical references are germane to the topic, they will come. But not because you want them.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
331
THOMASMID,
Instead of addressing the points ... you chose to abuse me. This shows how good a parent / brother / son you are. Shame on you. You are not only mad but a pathalogical facist. Your children & neighbours' children will puke at you if you ask them to follow Modi-Bin-Laden. Every NRI with self respect should condemn Raman and ask him to apologise for misleading the readers.
Saraswathi
Zurich, Switzerland
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
330
Thomasmid: I have had only very few moslem students, 1 to 2%, in the ug engg courses, almost none in pg courses or research students. The few ug-students were good in listening to lectures and answering exams. But no enthusiasm for asking questions or exploring new possibilities. Perhaps, the family habits of memorizing the quran and limiting all decisions to the dictates of quran, does set blinkers to their thought-spread.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
329
Seshadri,

"Only special request from me, please change your psuedonym to Ahmed, instead of Anand. The word 'anand' has high spiritual significance in hinduism, not suited to someone of your ways of thinking.

V.SESHADRI
CHENNAI INDIA"

It is not my pseudonym you silly, silly guy. Nor am I a muslim or christian

I am a Hindu who is aghast at the growth of hindu fundamentalism. There are many of us. Calling us names won't help.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
328
Chaitanya,

"Hinduism and Buddhism both have numerous gods and both follow the same paths to ultimately achieve Nirvana (a place where all the enlightened beings reside)

Buddhists preach compassion, charity and nonviolence and while Hindus profess pacifism and ahimsa, which is the avoidance of harm to people and animals, they still believe war is justifiable in certain cases. They see it as their duty to fight in a just war. Harming others is wrong but if the war will cause undo suffering to others, then violent acts are justifiable.

The concept of suffering and reincarnation is common in both religions.

These are just few of the points in common... "

1. Buddhism does not have any Gods! Please read about Buddhism before making statements like this.

2. Buddhism does preach nonviolence! Hinduism had not PREACH nonviolence before Buddha did. Ahimsa was a very marginal concept. Buddha made it significant.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
327
Thomasmid,

"

No muslim nation has impressed the world with a
good performance, but yet the drum beaters of Islam are constantly beating their drums, whilst
flocking to nonmuslim countries, eg USA and Europe."

Same with people like you who have migrated to Norway despite beating India's drum all the time.

Indians everyday migrate to the middle east, to malaysia, indonesia, australia, the US, europe .... all over to escape either poverty or to seek better opportunities.

Associating muslims with poverty is utter nonsense. Statistically worldwide muslims are more literate and more properous than the average hindu. Same goes for christians. This is just a fact buddy. Keep on carping.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
326
Thomasmid,

"Anand

I dont believe you are a Hindu. If you have been one, then you have degenerated to the level of the gutter."

Thomasmid, this is the greatest compliment I could ever receive. I am in the gutter indeed.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
325
Rajwinder,

"As an NRI I am greatful that India still has secular 'hypocrites' who will stand up to the bullying of fascists like Modi."

Precisely. If you even consider these messageboards as a microcosm of India, you'll notice the distinct flavor of fascism. I'm really scared by the comments from readers like THomasmid, Badu, Seshadri etc.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
324
Thomasid/Bagai,

>> here are some of your own statements.
"The fortress of Islam is ruled by rightists. The
liberals are nascent, and the moderates are silent"
"Islam will take a century or two to come up to the standards of the modern civilisations"
"Islam has inbuilt inflexibilities, which make reform difficult"
"Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are states which I despise"
After admitting all this , he denounces all who say the same- I mean the nonmuslims.

I have stated those or similar things, but you are disingenuous when you say that you have been saying the same things. Here is what you say :

>> muslims are hated in India by many Hindus.

The above is your standard line, but without the word "many". You have said the same thing in different words a thousand times. In fact you have nothing else to say! You are a sick, sick man.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
323
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> Dr Seshadri What do as an educationist think of the performance of muslims after 60 years.

Muslims, Muslims, Muslims, Muslims, Muslims .... what an obsession!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
322
"Thomasmid: I have had only very few moslem students, 1 to 2%, in the ug engg courses, almost none in pg courses or research students. The few ug-students were good in listening to lectures and answering exams. But no enthusiasm for asking questions or exploring new possibilities. Perhaps, the family habits of memorizing the quran and limiting all decisions to the dictates of quran, does set blinkers to their thought-spread.

V.SESHADRI
CHENNAI INDIA"

Seshadri,

The idea that the Quran makes muslims stupid is unbelievably bigoted. And you are a teacher! What a pathetic situation. Hindus memorize too - the gayatri mantra, the vedas, rudrams etc - we dont become dull because of that do we? Jews memorize verses from the torah - they don't become dull do they?

Associating memorizing verses from the quran with stupidity is a common them among elitist brahmins (hailing from a brahmin family I know all about it) who think they are superior in intellect.

Seshadri - Iyengar you may indeed be a very smart engineer and an intellect. But at the end of the day you are a pathetic, narrow minded individual.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
321
Seshadri,

>> the family habits of memorizing the quran and limiting all decisions to the dictates of quran, does set blinkers to their thought-spread.

Someone with such ideas would be a bad professor, especially for students from minority communities.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
320
Seshadri,

Since you are a holy man who fears none, can you please tell us which university you are a professor at? Your posts should be sent directly to your employers and the board of education I think.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
319
Ghulam,

"Someone with such ideas would be a bad professor, especially for students from minority communities."

There is a theory in management called the Pygmallion theory. This says that people tend to live up to expectations. Seshadri, as a professor, would naturally expect a minority student to do poorly, and the brahmin students to perform well. His expectations have a decided influence on his approach to teaching ... and will ultimately influence the performance of his students as well. Minority students in Seshadri's class have a greater probability of doing worse.

The interesting thing is that even pseudo secular profs are likely to yield similar results. If one believes that minorities need greater educational support, you are expecting them to do poorly.

The best approach for a teacher is to stop being judgemental and ignore the religious/caste orientation of the student altogether.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
318
Anand,

>> Pygmallion theory. This says that people tend to live up to expectations.

Experimentally proven by research psychologists for Afro-American students, and even for all white students divided into two groups, each subgroup treated with different expectations by their teachers.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
317
B. Raman,

>> for large sections of the Hindus--young and old, even more among the young than among the old-- he gave them a sense of pride in their identity as Hindus.

Is there really such a crisis of identity on a massive scale? I find it hard to believe.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
316
Well, well let's paint poor Mr.Seshadri as the horrible Brahmin and gang up on him. Nice strategy Anand.
Anand: "The idea that the Quran makes muslims stupid is unbelievably bigoted. "
Let's hear what Mr.Seshadri said: "Perhaps, the family habits of memorizing the quran and limiting all decisions to the dictates of quran, does set blinkers to their thought-spread."
Note the "Perhaps" first. Then he clearly says "AND LIMITING ALL DECISIONS TO THE DICTATES OF THE QURAN". Nice of you to miss that. I suppose to some blinkered individuals, being Brahmin itself is a crime!!
Anand: "Hindus memorize too - the gayatri mantra"
Hmm.. the last time I tried to apply the Gayatri mantra or Rudram to decide whether someone was a bigoted Brahmin-hater, I did not get any results. However, I do see two people bashing Brahmins and ganging up on a man who simply stated his opinion.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
315
Anand: "is a common them among elitist brahmins (hailing from a brahmin family I know all about it) who think they are superior in intellect."
Now that is broad-mindedness. No bigotry there - Brahmins are all simply scum who "think they are superior in intellect". Now if you kindly let us know who your employer is, I will gladly forward your posts there as well. I am sure you have many such nuggets to offer up in the future.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
314
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> who defends muslims in India, USA and Palestine.

I don't defend Muslims. I attack bigots like you. Luckily for me it is not a difficult job, because most of the bigots in this forum are as empty headed as yourself.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
313
"But here is an interesting trend. BJP's win in northern Gujarat is partly due to the presence of BSP, they cut Congress's SC/ST vote bank."

There is nothing interesting about it. BSP party candidates have been contesting in Gujarat since the early 90's.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
312
Anand to Seshadri,

Most Hindus hold prejudice of some sort for muslims, many times inhibited, but it's present. Only a dumb hindu will support muslims to the extent you do. It's dumb to threaten any Hindu here. No one gives a heck about what we say about muslims because it's true most of the time. I will not be put in jail for abusing muslims, i can assure you. But the reverse is not always true.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
311
i meant, "because it's true most of the true"
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
310
Anand,

I am having second thoughts about you being a Hindu. I don't see a reason why a hindu will defend Islam like a muslim does.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
309
sorry....unnecessary typo..."because it's true most of the time" was correct.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
308
Anand,

When was the last time any Muslim came to your rescue when muslim said something rude to you. Stop being a neo-gandhi. We don't need them.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
307
Chaitanya,

"I am having second thoughts about you being a Hindu. I don't see a reason why a hindu will defend Islam like a muslim does."

Can you explain when I've defended Islam? If I liked Islam so much, I'd have converted to Islam, brother. I haven't because I see goodness in Islam and Christianity and yet am proud of my hindu heritage.

All the great Hindu philosophers have maintained the goodness in all religions. I do believe in ekam sath vipra bahuto vadanti. If you do not believe in that, then it is your problem, not mine. If I am knowledgeable about other religions, and you are not, that is your problem. You choose to listen to anti-muslim, anti-christian propagandists and fill yourself with hateful views. That is your problem, not mine.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
306
Vinod,

"We are proud of having a misguided Hindu in you and would love to make you understand that Hinduism is not bad as you want to project it.We have seen many a so called Hindu like you going on the path of that old horse Kancha Illaya who writes 'why he is not a Hindu'.Some Buddhist converts often appear on several forums calling themselves s Hindus but writing everything against Hinduism.No big deal.Rest be assured that we will not disappoint you. If Hindus are accused of being fundamentalists for fighting against the fanatic and anti national Muslims,Christians and Hindus then so be it.Let there be many of you."

Ad nauseum attacks, calling names and being abusive (calling me Adnan), calling me muslim etc. are classic symptoms of a mind that lacks judgement, knowledge and tolerance.

You can continue to call me names and debase yourself. It doesn't bother me one bit actually.

Verse 42 of the Gita says "samo damas tapah saucham kshantir arjavam eva cha" ... go and check the translation for that. You'll understand why you are not a real Hindu then.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
305
Vinod,

"If you are talking about the students from christian minority community they have been faring well.And if its the Muslim minority students who have basic learning at Madrassas or the Mosques and who are already polarized any professor would find these kind of students over active and unruly."

Madrassa education has been proven to be mostly devoid of science and technology. Muslim families who cannot afford to send children to good schools send them to madrassas. Fundamentalist muslims take advantage of this situation and feed them all sorts of nonsense about hindus and india. No doubt about that. The Deobandi madrassas are a classical example of this.

Should we fault poor muslims who send their children to madrassas? Or should we fault the intolerant muslim religious leaders? You decide buddy. If you cannot see the distinction between the two, you have a problem.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
304
One more comment on madrassas. They were not always these debased, outdated educational institutions. Toward the end of Mughal rule, madrassas included both Islamic and Hindu education. Both Hindus and muslims studied in madrassas.

Many great scholars including Raja Ram Mohan Roy were madrassa students.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
303
There can be definite stability in India only when all these muslims return to their roots. I didn't find anything worthwhile in Islamic way of life of present day. What is in scriptures is meant for theological debates but the fact of life muslims of todays attract revulsion from others due to their bigoted ways. Let's put the scriptures to rest.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
302
Vinod,

"You are right that Hindus in deed are less prosperous than the Muslims.Then why the Muslims need a Sachar committee."

Don't be silly. I was referring to muslims around the world, responding to claims that muslims are fundamentally stupid and given to poverty and dullness. Anyone with a pair of well functioning eyes, ears and a brain knows that muslims are doing worse than hindus in India. What the government needs to do for them is a different, more complex question. I'm not advocating any govt support - merely pointing out the facts.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
301
Anand,

Let muslims defend themselves. We are not here to dole out more appeasement. I would appreciate if muslims can debate in such a way.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
300
Anand,

Your attempts to moderate the extremist hindus is a good cause but of no use when the moderate muslims are nowhere. If there are any few, they are not recognised as muslims by the rest of the muslims.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
299
Anand,

The stagnation of muslims since post-independent India has to do with Hindus taking over the nation. They will never get over it. So much unnecessary pride in the times of poverty too.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
298
Chaitanya,

"Your attempts to moderate the extremist hindus is a good cause but of no use when the moderate muslims are nowhere. If there are any few, they are not recognised as muslims by the rest of the muslims."

There are moderate muslims just as there are moderate hindus. Whenever a muslim tries to be moderate, he is labeled "pseudosecularist", jihadist ... what not.

You see, moderation does not exist in isolation. We are not providing hindus or muslims with good reasons to be moderate. Moderate hindus are labeled "hindutva fanatics" by secularists. Moderate muslims are labeled jihadists by fundamentalist hindus. Its a merrygoround of intellectual poverty.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
297
An interesting analysis. Does it mean that all those cyber age Hindus who according to you have made Modi their icon, approve of the manner in which his government treats minorities? If this is so just what kind of an Indian State does this ' pride in being a Hindu' that Modi - according to you - inspires point towards? Religions, ethnic identities and ideologies whatever their content have consistently proved themselves to be the surest lever by which communities can be aroused to attack each other. To trade in ones ability to think freely for the opportunity to subjugate ones mind to these elements and fins 'pride' in doing so is in my opinion an insult to human intelligence and a degradation of our basic humanity. I am surprised that one who once constituted the 'intelligence' of India should own such a narrow understanding of the role of religion, ethnicity and ideology in socio political processes and institutions.
Nirmalan Dhas
colombo, sri lanka
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
296
Had posted the following twice couple of days back, but couldn't find it. Later realized that there was some issue with the site, and it went to the end. Posting once again

>> These were set up by the Constituent Assembly and the Parliament without opposition.

You are making my point. The constitution was adopted by the constituent assembly in 1949. The Jana Sangh was not formed till 51, and had mere 3 seats in the 52 elections. Don't let this stop you from continuing to blame BJP for Congress's appeasement policies though.

Haj subsidy though, was introduced much later, and has always been controversial. Essentially, when the mode of travel was changed from sea to air, the price was not changed, and hence the subsidy. It has nothing to do with the constituent assembly or parliament.

>> Attempts to dismantle them are equally apathetic on behalf of both the Congress and the BJP, although the rhetoric at election times is different.

To begin with, you seriously need to get over the idea that if BJP is unable or reluctant to implement or change a policy, it must be secular, or is beyond criticism. It might be a political decision for BJP, just as it always was a political decision for Congress to buy minority votes.

More importantly, there has not been a BJP govt at the center so far. BJP has led an NDA govt, many of whose constituents cared as much for pseudo-secularism, as Congress and left. Moreover, constitutional changes require a 2/3 majority, which NDA never had, not to mention a lack of majority in Rajya Sabha.

If I recall correctly, NDA govt did make a modification in the Haj subsidy plan, whereby it could be availed of only once. This was nullified when the MMS govt took charge.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
295
Chaitanya,

"The stagnation of muslims since post-independent India has to do with Hindus taking over the nation. They will never get over it. So much unnecessary pride in the times of poverty too."

I dont think anything in life is so black and white. The stunted development of muslims is due to many reasons in my opinion -

a) Lack of credible leaders among muslims who can lead them into development
b) Growing anti-muslim hysteria among the hindu majority, fostered by hatemongers (some of whom post on these message boards)
c) Caste system
d) Toothless political parties who treat minorities like votebanks and appease them without really caring for their development.

The responsibility does not lie with hindus alone, or with muslims alone.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
294
Anand,

Whatever the issue about moderate muslims or hindus being acceptable or unacceptable, what do you think about vandemataram? Shouldn't all muslim kids sing that in schools? The policies of congress only let more muslims to believe that it's ok to not adhere to necessary patriotism like vandemataram or respecting the national flag.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
293
"If I recall correctly, NDA govt did make a modification in the Haj subsidy plan, whereby it could be availed of only once. This was nullified when the MMS govt took charge."

The Haj subsidy is an anachronism. There is no reason for the Indian govt to subsidize travel for muslims and muslims alone. There are poor hindus who wish to travel abroad and poor christians who would do anything to see the sistine chapel.

We all appreciate the importance of the Haj for indian muslims. But they are better off rejecting the Haj subsidy. One it will remove the irritation that Hindus naturally feel about the issue. Secondly it prevents the parivar from using the subsidy as yet another divisive issue.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
292
"Lack of credible leaders among muslims who can lead them into development"

The only leader of credibility and stature in the last hundred years has been Maulana Abdul Kalam, who took less interest in educating muslims. The muslim leadership will remain retrograde for a long time to come. Most Muslims of today love Owaisi who wants to murder Taslima.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
291
Chaitanya,

"Whatever the issue about moderate muslims or hindus being acceptable or unacceptable, what do you think about vandemataram? Shouldn't all muslim kids sing that in schools? The policies of congress only let more muslims to believe that it's ok to not adhere to necessary patriotism like vandemataram or respecting the national flag."

Indians should be proud to sing Vandemataram. You'll agree that A R Rahman a very pious muslim and a tremendous patriot popularized the national song after decades of negligence. So there's no reason for muslims to reject it. I think they are suspicious because the parivar & co. wants to FORCE muslims to sing it to prove their patriotism.

You see, miscreants in both communities want even the smallest nonissues to become major issues. It is for intelligent muslims and hindus to understand the games these idiots play and not be carried away by it.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
290
A R Rahman is a Sufi. Most of the Indian muslims are Sunnis. There is a great difference you see.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
289
And there are Shias. Shias oppose USA's treatment to Iran and Sunnis go on a rampage when saddam is hanged.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
288
One more thing regarding Vande Mataram.

Secularists want Indians to reject everything religious about our past. Hinduism has played a tremendous role in shaping our society. That is what irritates Hindus - that the secularists want us to forget our past.

At the same time, lets not forget the immense contributions other cultures including arab, persian, western, portuguese have played in shaping our present.

One example. We all associate chillies, tomatoes with "Indianness." Chillis were brought into India by spanish traders (or by portuguese) ... Today the image of the Taj is used to represent India.

Culture is an everchanging, evolving thing. Lets recognize the significant role HInduism has played in our culture. Lets ALSO recognize the impact of outside cultures on our society.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
287
Anand,

"I think they are suspicious because the parivar & co. wants to FORCE muslims to sing it to prove their patriotism."

You maybe true, but suspicion or no suspicion they should behave like India. It's the least people expect from them.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
286
Chaitanya,

"A R Rahman is a Sufi. Most of the Indian muslims are Sunnis. There is a great difference you see."

AR Rahman himself is not a Sufi. He likes Sufi poetry etc. but first and foremost he's a muslim, as he himself says. That is the beauty of India - our culture has managed to absorb new ideas from abroad and modify it according to local tastes. That is how Hinduism spread in our country many centuries ago.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
285
"That is the beauty of India - our culture has managed to absorb new ideas from abroad and modify it according to local tastes. That is how Hinduism spread in our country many centuries ago."

So what do you think people were practicing in India before the arrival of Hinduism? Why are there no origins of Hinduism outside the subcontinent? Let's not go off the mark here. Hinduism originated in India.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
284
Chaitanya,

"You maybe true, but suspicion or no suspicion they should behave like India. It's the least people expect from them."

Nobody likes to be treated like traitors or suspects all the time. Moderate, patriotic muslims dont reject vandemataram. They reject vandemataram being forced on them and being used a test of their patriotism.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
283
People came from everywhere, but Hinduism as such has it's roots in the mountains, river banks, villages and jungles of India.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
282
They reject vandemataram being forced on them and being used a test of their patriotism.

That is not a sufficient explanation. As i said, whatever the issues of muslims with some groups, they need to sing vandemataram and that is the least people expect from there. There can be no explanation for not singing with it. If they identify with the nation, it comes naturally to them, to adhere to minimum principles.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
281
Chaitanya,

"So what do you think people were practicing in India before the arrival of Hinduism? Why are there no origins of Hinduism outside the subcontinent? Let's not go off the mark here. Hinduism originated in India."

Please continue to believe in whatever you want. But scholars who have researched Hinduism and Zoroastrianism have found incredible similarities to suggest that the vedas may have originated outside our current borders.

You see, Hinduism never existed as a monolith (still doesn't!)

Indians practised a wide variety of faiths and belief systems. (That is the reason we don't worship the same Gods and some Gods are regional in nature.)

And then someone from OUTSIDE India came and saw us, didn't understand what we were doing ... and said "oh, these guys are all Hindus."

In other words, Hinduism was a WORD coined to described all the variety of beliefs existing in this land mass. Ofcourse, the parivar wants us to ignore all that and think that somehwo Hinduism is a monolith. Its simply untrue. Travel across India and into the villages and you'll see the tremendous differences.

One example - In Nepal (Hindu kingdom), they butcher animals and let them bleed inside a temple! Such a practice would be considered "sinful" by majority of Indian Hindus.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
280
"
That is not a sufficient explanation. As i said, whatever the issues of muslims with some groups, they need to sing vandemataram and that is the least people expect from there. There can be no explanation for not singing with it. If they identify with the nation, it comes naturally to them, to adhere to minimum principles."

Sorry Chaitanya. It is YOUR definition of patriotism. Others may or may not agree with it.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
279
Anand,

India was the most fertile ground for minds to conceive scriptures of Hinduism. The commonalities between zorastrianism and hinduism may exist as much as the commonalities between shaivites and vaishnavites. Hinduism is a coined term to represent diverse views, but nevertheless in the present times, where Islam and Christianity are aggrandizing to convert the rest of the world, there is no wrong in all the ancient views of India coming under one banner to protect all of them.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
278
Sorry Chaitanya. It is YOUR definition of patriotism. Others may or may not agree with it.

Those others, need to leave in India in that case. They should go to Pakistan. When they are left to live in India, people expect minimum respect of national sanctity. This is something most agree to. It's not a extremist view.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
277
Chaitanya,

"People came from everywhere, but Hinduism as such has it's roots in the mountains, river banks, villages and jungles of India."

Hinduism has no roots. Its as simple as that.

(the parivar wants to establish the primacy of Lord Ram, the Vedas etc. but it is simply not true.)

I encourage you to travel the villages and jungles of india to understand the tremendous differences between your beliefs and other beliefs practiced by other hindus.

Have you ever wondered why the word Hindu is not Indian? If Hinduism was ONE religion, don't you think we'd atleast have a NAME for it? Why should we depend on the persians to give our religion a name? You don't have to answer me. Just think about it.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
276
"I encourage you to travel the villages and jungles of india to understand the tremendous differences between your beliefs and other beliefs practiced by other hindus."

I am accustomed to the diversity of India. The beliefs are localised but there are great commonalities in a holistic sense.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
275
Chaitanya,

"there is no wrong in all the ancient views of India coming under one banner to protect all of them."

Protecting different belief systems is a valid and even noble concept. If you want to protect all these different views, first maintain them as they are. Don't try to modify them into a monolith just for convenience.

The greatness of hinduism is its diversity. You are suggesting that we destroy the diversity by forcing everyone to follow one viewpoint.

Also, hinduism is DIFFERENT from islam and christianity. I dont' understand this obsession with trying to COPY islam and christianity.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
274
"Hinduism has no roots. Its as simple as that."

Let's not bull shit here. Hinduism is a term recognised worldwide. Everyone understand an Indian as a Hindu, including Americans and Arabs.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
273
"If you want to protect all these different views, first maintain them as they are."

They can be maintained as they are in a refined version. When all come together, they have more strength to protect them. Diversity will only destroy everything.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
272
Chaitanya,

"Let's not bull shit here. Hinduism is a term recognised worldwide. Everyone understand an Indian as a Hindu, including Americans and Arabs."

Why would I want to bullshit buddy? The fact that Hinduism exists doesn't mean it has the same roots that you THINK it has. Please do your own, unbiased research and you will understand for yourself.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
271
"The fact that Hinduism exists doesn't mean it has the same roots that you THINK it has. Please do your own, unbiased research and you will understand for yourself."

I get the jist of what you are trying to say, but Hindu is what an Indian Muslim will be called if he goes to Macca. Hinduism is recognised worlwide.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
270
Anand,

I don't what the hell you are trying to prove by saying Hinduism is a coined term, but we already know that.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
269
test
Nah
Mumbai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
268
Diversity is everywhere in India, in languages, races, customs and traditions. But we all are patriotic to this nation, and idea of what it embodies, like fish is to ocean. We don't know what it means, but we are glued to it. The encounters with leading great powers of the day, including Muslims, Europeans, has made us aware that people have a lot in common in this region. For example, a tamil naga sadhu gets a free pass to north indian mountains to smoke weed and penance in the name of OM or just loiter around. A North Indian can reside anywhere in south india, if he is prepared to adjust to local ways, and this is something that has been happening for thousands of years. This freedom is not available to Indian muslim on his arrival to Jeddah.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
267
Chaitanya,

"I don't what the hell you are trying to prove by saying Hinduism is a coined term, but we already know that"

People know that it is coined, but they don't necessarily think about what that means. They fail to see that the construct of a monolith Hindu tradition is in fact wrong. They still believe that even though it is clear that what you practice may have no relationship whatsoever with what someone in a village or jungle practices. When do we learn to accept that unlike Islam or Christianity, the concept of a single hindu identity is an artificial construct. The only purpose to create that singular identity is to "defend" against imagined enemies.

Also, it is not as if all your posts have been dripping of wisdom buddy. Save your anger for something worthy.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
266
>> Secondly it prevents the parivar from using the subsidy as yet another divisive issue.

If the "seculars" talk about removal of this subsidy at all, this is often one of the reasons given. So, the aim is not to abolish this pernicious subsidy, but to deny a handle to the parivar. But even that pales in comparison to vote bank politics, so apart from occasional pious blabberings, they dare not abolish it, or raise this issue in any substantial way.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
265
Al Bundy,

"If the "seculars" talk about removal of this subsidy at all, this is often one of the reasons given. So, the aim is not to abolish this pernicious subsidy, but to deny a handle to the parivar. But even that pales in comparison to vote bank politics, so apart from occasional pious blabberings, they dare not abolish it, or raise this issue in any substantial way."

That was the second reason I cited. The first one clearly points to the double standard involved with subsidizing muslims alone.

Of course, you seem to be just waiting for an opportunity to call anyone who disagrees with you a "pseudo secularist."
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
264
Chaitanya,

"I get the jist of what you are trying to say, but Hindu is what an Indian Muslim will be called if he goes to Macca. Hinduism is recognised worlwide."

Indian muslims are called Hindus in Mecca? Really? This is the first time I'm hearing this. Care to elaborate?
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
263
Rahi Masoom Reza a famous lyricist and writer said, "Indian Muslim is being called Hindu by the people of Arab and Iran. Means 'Hindu' is the name of Hindustani Kaum. When in my thesis I wrote the same then renowned personality of Urdu deleted the same line."
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
262
I have heard several accounts of Indian muslims treated with racism when they visit Arab nations.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
261
Anand,

There is nothing imaginary about whatever demographic changes happened or happening in India. Don't be foolish.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
260
>> Of course, you seem to be just waiting for an opportunity to call anyone who disagrees with you a "pseudo secularist."

No, I don't mind disagreement. However, you are right that I do like to call out all these obnoxious pseudos.

As for the reason being cited first or second, the point is that this is one of the primary reasons the pseudos sometimes talk about abolishing it, though that's all they do.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
259
Anand,

>> But they are better off rejecting the Haj subsidy.

Several Muslim spokesman have spoken out against the Haj subsidy. According to the purists, a subsidized Haj is not legit. But no one in India is going to refuse something coming their way. And the desire to abolish the subsidy has not been too strong in successive governments.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
258
>>Muslim families who cannot afford to send children to good schools send them to madrassas...

There are a large number of Government run primary schools, where no fees are charged. Some of them teach even in Urdu. All of them give free books, uniforms , one meal a day and even bicycles in Karnataks. Still a large number of muslims send their children to Madrasas, not to these govenment schools, where a normal education can be obtained.

Chosing of Madrasa as an option is certainly not economic all the time , as is made out.

The choice of
Shankar
Bangalore, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
257
>> The muslim leadership will remain retrograde for a long time to come.

The narrow Muslim middle class continues to produce its usual number of doctors, engineers and lawyers, but the poorer classes have withdrawn from competition and taken to religiosity and rickshaw driving, or being a burden on others. The alienation and despondency of this class is not unlike that of the American Blacks just 50 years ago. These American Blacks would have stayed put if there had been American versions of anti-Sacharites during the 1960's when the major civil rights and affirmative action legislations were passed.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
256
I fail to understand why Outlook has allowed to print such a diabolic article aimed at normal human beings - Hindus & Muslims - who are not anti Muslim by nature. Raman had been publishing anti Muslim articles in the past in the garb of hitting out at Muslim terrorists, but this time he has crosssed all limits, he has all praise for the modern day Hitler who presided over the biggest ever pogrom in independent India. Modi won the election simply because he had totally communalized the state.

Moin Sattar
Moin Sattar
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
255
Whatever be the case, Modi will lead to new Modis. Ghulam Faruki comparing American Blacks to Indian Muslims has always homored me. Blacks are blacks everywhere, and they were brought to america as slaves. Some muslim people came with Islam, and played havoc on India by changing the demographic trend, but not being any kind to all the low caste converted people. So both are uncomparable situations. Muslims need to look after themselves first, before asking help from others.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
254
>>because most of the bigots in this forum are as empty headed as yourself.

Once again the 3 questions that the intellectually loaded secular Mia is dodging for months now.

1. When did you see a board in Dena Bank saying " we do not hire muslims " ? Which year ?
2. Which is the shoe factory in Agra , where you saw a similar board ?
3. CAIRs attorneys confirm in an affidavit their membership has gone down post 9/11. You say it has not. So who is lying? You or CAIRs attorneys?

Till you answer these questions, you are the most empty headed bigot of the forum.
Shankar
Bangalore, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
253
>> The policies of congress only let more muslims to believe that it's ok to not adhere to necessary patriotism like vandemataram or respecting the national flag."

Tha national flag and Janamanagana are honored by all Muslims. Saluting the country is acceptable, but "worshipping" the country becomes a problem for the orthodox, since they worship God and God alone. The first two stanzas of Vandemaataram should cause no problems since no goddesses are mentioned, and since Vande can be tranlated as "I salute" rather than "I worship". Compulsory singing, or compelled speech of any kind should be anathema to a free people, but even those who do not want to sing it should stand while it is being sung. The United States Supreme has court ruled that Jehovah's Witnesses are excused from saluting the flag for religious reasons.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
252
Ghulam Faruki,

India and United States are two different nations. Different foundations and different approach to nationalism. Worshipping country should be made mandatory for Muslims when they are in signficiant numbers. The exception can be made to Parsees, but i don't think they have any issue with worshipping India. People will start with issues about worshipping nation and will take to any lengths. Muslims like Pakistani flag in many mini pakistans across India.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
251
>>"Someone with such ideas would be a bad professor, especially for students from minority communities."

>>Minority students in Seshadri's class have a greater probability of doing worse.

So the two resident Mullahs have used their Islamic Crystal Ball, over the internet and have pronounced a judgement of Prof. Sheshadris teaching abilities.

Islamic woders never cease !!


Shankar
Bangalore, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
250
>>Associating memorizing verses from the quran with stupidity is a common them among elitist brahmins (hailing from a brahmin family I know all about it) who think they are superior in intellect.

What a sweeping generalisation from some one who is supposed to be a "real" liberal hindu , unlike other posters here.

So you being a brahmin , knowing everything about how all brahmins think is not sweeping generalisation, but bin laden being a muslim, representing Islamo fascist terror is sweeping generalisation. Bravo !

>>But at the end of the day you are a pathetic, narrow minded individual.

A classic case of Pot calling the kettle black. What you said above applies to you as well.
Shankar
Bangalore, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
249
>> . Blacks are blacks everywhere, and they were brought to america as slaves.

A distinction that is totally irrelevant to this discussion.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
248
Anand,

I can quote verses from Quran as much as you quote from Gita. But that doesn't make me a Muslim or you a Hindu.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
247
Chaitanya,

>> India and United States are two different nations.

All nations are different, but we are discussing certain principles here.

>> Worshipping country should be made mandatory for Muslims when they are in signficiant numbers.

This is a fascistic statements. All people should honor and salute the country. Those who want to worship it should be free to do so.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
246
Faruki/Anand,

">> Worshipping country should be made mandatory for Muslims when they are in signficiant numbers.

This is a fascistic statements. All people should honor and salute the country. Those who want to worship it should be free to do so."

Yeah and i find the muslim shouting for prayers very fascistic. You people are good at terming others fascist instead of looking into the mirror.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
245
All Indians should worship India. Period.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
244
Chaitanya,

>> i find the muslim shouting for prayers very fascistic.

The Muslim call for prayers does not require you to do anything. But you are ordering Muslims to do something that their religion forbids them to do.

>> All Indians should worship India. Period.

Muslims are not allowed by their religion to worship anything excpet God. By insisting on the verb "worship" instead of "salute" or "honor", you want to rub the noses of the Muslims in the dust, but then you do not want to be called a fascist!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
243
Faruki/Anand,

"Muslims are not allowed by their religion to worship anything excpet God."

And India is the most imporant god for any Indian. I am an atheist but i worship India.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
242
Someone quoted something about Vivekananda and "Non-Duality" which was intended to bridge differences between different thoughts to arrive at an idea that people as an entity must be the generation of supreme power. So Indians can take that as a cue to worship India as God.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
241
Here is a collection of Quotable Quotes by the Seculars on Gujarat elections..

Hilarious Media Articles on Gujarat Elections


http://bharatindian.ind...s-on-gujarat-elections/


"Modi’s moment of truth Yogendra Yadav (political scientist and pollster) Eminent psephologist (??!!), Indian Express, India - Dec 9, 2007
“Democracy is taking revenge on Narendra Modi. This election may well be the long deferred moment of truth for the man who invoked popular mandate to bypass norms, laws or the Constitution. We cannot yet say that he will lose this election. But a journey through Saurashtra is enough to suggest that the BJP is losing ground in this crucial region. "

And BJP bagged most seats in Saurashtra ! What a dope and a moron !! He still thinks he is a leading psephologist who has seen it all.
Shankar
Bangalore, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
240
Chaitanya,

"All Indians should worship India. Period."

What sort of nonsensical suggestion is this? There's no need for Indians to worship anything! You are starting to sound like the third reich champion.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
239
Chaitanya,

"And India is the most imporant god for any Indian. I am an atheist but i worship India."

This is new. Please explain exactly how you WORSHIP India, will you.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
238
Chaitanya,

"I can quote verses from Quran as much as you quote from Gita. But that doesn't make me a Muslim or you a Hindu."

I fully expected to be called muslim by narrow minded people like you. I know that I am a Hindu and don't need to prove it to you. Feel free to call me a muslim/christian/whatever.

By your own confession, you are yourself an atheist who doesn't believe in any god. Oops, sorry, you worship the God India.

Ofcourse you want to claim that you are more patriotic than me because you worship India. Feel free to do so as well.

I just think you need a good psychiatrist.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
237
Chaitanya,

"I have heard several accounts of Indian muslims treated with racism when they visit Arab nations."

Possibly. The arabs have been known to be quite racist. Infact in order to convert to islam initially you had to convert into an arab tribe.

But really, who the hell cares what the arabs do? Indian muslims are OUR problem. Arab racism is THEIR problem.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
236
Some more gems from Indias leading Psephologist, who has seen it all.

1.According to psephologist Yogendra Yadav, in a state like Gujarat even small swings make a lot of difference.

'A 2 percent swing away means the BJP loses substantial votes. A small change in the voting can make a huge difference,' Yadav said on CNN IBN's special programme on the Gujarat polls Tuesday night.

'It is a neck and neck fight between the Congress and BJP in Gujarat,' the channel said.

'Modi wanted the polls to be a plebiscite on himself, but the turnout shows it is a tight election. It is a negative signal for the BJP, maybe not as negative as the Congress wanted, but negative for the BJP,' observed Yadav.

The channel also said that voters were not swayed by Chief Minister Narendra Modi's talk of development or his vision for Gujarat. It was an election fought on caste and local factors, showing the return of 'normal politics' to Gujarat, the channel said.

The second and final phase of the polling is due Sunday.

http://news.monstersand...y_TV_channel_exit_polls


2."Another form is the rise of media, and not just the Delhi-based English and secular media, as counter-establishment. This has prevented Modi from setting the agenda of elections. This election is not about the macro economic achievements of Gujarat. Those achievement might impress the middle class urban Gujarati but have very little value outside this charmed circle. Ordinary people wish to see what these have meant in their own lives. Speak to any poor Gujarati in rural or urban areas about these achievements and he will narrate to you the tale of his woes in obtaining the basic necessities of life. Modi’s well cultivated aura of omniscience and omnipotence begins to boomerang here: the voters hold him responsible for everything, from price rise and lack of employment to agrarian crisis, the state of BPL card and having to pay electricity bills.

http://www.bloggernews.net/112649


BJP got more seats in Rural Gujarat tha Urbam gujarat. So much for this guys punditry !!

Yadav will find it difficult to wipe the eggs on his face , even if he tries 24 x 7, till next gujarat elections in 2012.
Shankar
Bangalore, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
235
Another Famous pollster Drab soporificwala on NDTV , made a projection with a 92% variance.

If an exit poll has a variabce of 92% , then it is not a scientific poll anymore. Anyone can throw a dice and come out with such numbers.

But our Soporificwalla remains a leading psephologist !!
"After giving out the precise number of seats likely to be won by each party in the first phase, along with statistical explanations, NDTV was expected to be equally precise in its forecast in the second phase too, considering that it had the largest sample size and the expertise of Prannoy Roy. But, surprisingly, what we saw was an unbelievable joke.

NDTV gave the Congress party, believe it you must, between 27 and, yes, 52 seats in the second phase! In percentage terms, this represents a variation of an absurd 92 percent above the minimum seats projected! The BJP was projected to win between 50 and 70 seats, a variation of 40 percent. Based on these figures and those of the first phase, the BJP was given a generous band of 90 to 110 seats while the Congress was projected to win between 70 and 95 seats, a whopping 35.7 percent cushion!"

http://vinodksharma.blo...kery-of-exit-polls.html
Shankar
Bangalore, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
234
Chaitanya,

>> And India is the most imporant god for any Indian. I am an atheist but i worship India.

You should do anything that your conscience allows you to do. However by requiring Muslims to "worship" India, you are ordering them to do something that their religion forbids. They cannot worship anything other than God. What you are doing is like requiring a pious Hindu to eat beef. Why would anyone want to do such a thing?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
233
@J
".......Mian Faruki, that was after Christians attacked a VHP leader who was against conversion drive launched by missionaries........"

Excuse of Terrorist Acts by hindu fanatics:

Gujarat Carnage was after godhra....
Now the attack on missionaries was after a VHP leader was attacked...


These are mere excuses - the truth is that hindu fanatics in their hatred against other faiths commit atrocities and later blame the victims for provoking them.

This is an old tactic - its like the law of the jungle - might is right - once you have the power you can do anything and present a lame excuse afterwards.

Just like US attacked Iraq & Afghanistan based on clumsy excuses.

However such atrocities against minorities will lead to retaliation - then dont cry that they were terrorists and anti-nationals. When you sow the wind you should be prepared to reap the whirlwind.

Also as far as I know the VHP leader was attacked after the attack on the churches.
Nah
Mumbai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
232
@J


I agree that the attack on VHP activist was a criminal act.

Do you agree that torching of churches was a terrorist act irrespective of the cause behind it ??
Nah
Mumbai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
231
@vinod
"..... Worshiping the nation simply means that 'country comes first' approach and practice.This has to do nothing with any religion nor its forced upon any one........."

Nationalism is a pseudo religion. In religion you worship god - in nationalism you worship a nation; you live & die for yr nation. Hardcore nationalists are no different from religious fundamentalists.


".....what ever sacrifices we make to save our country and our devotion towards it itself is the worship....."

Muslims dont worship created things - they worship only the creator. Also a muslim has to make sacrifices for things which are correct according to Islam.

This means that muslims wont blindly support a country on any issue just because they were born there and are citizens - they would support and sacrifice only for those issues which is accepted and appreciable in islam.

For example muslims staying in US wont support the US war on terror if it implies killing of innocent civilians in Iraq & Afghanistan.
Nah
Mumbai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
230
In this forum the only guy who goes on a rampage abusing Hindus is Faruki and it's proven time and again. So i accept that Anand is a psuedonym of Faruki or maybe some other muslims guy trying to come across as Hindu. The pigs think they are smart.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
229
And whoever this guy "Nah" is, he must be taken as a crazy nut, a harmless nut as Faruki says. His posts will be accepted only in the gardens of madrassas.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
228
@CHAINTANYA
".......In this forum the only guy who goes on a rampage abusing Hindus is Faruki and it's proven time and again........"

I am a 'regular' in this forum and i have never seen him abusing hindus - can you provide me the links where he has abused hindus ??

"......So i accept that Anand is a psuedonym of Faruki or maybe some other muslims guy trying to come across as Hindu. The pigs think they are smart. ........"

In fact you are abusing muslims time and again - heres the proof !!!
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
227
@CHAITANYA
"....His posts will be accepted only in the gardens of madrassas. ......"

you wont do a favor on anyone by accepting or rejecting someones viewpoint.
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
226
Reignoftruth(Nah), your posts always are fun to read.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
225
wow...Please forward this topic to our SO called secular english media. (And also few so called secular personalities whom they had taken interviews..eg. Mallika, Javed, Tista....)
Nitin
Ahmedabad, India
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
224
Hindus see in Modi “Dragon Slayer”, David in “David and Goliath”, a politician who truly believes in, everything is fair in love and war doctrine, and a daredevil leader who would damn the laws of the land for his convictions.

sohan
rockville, United States
Dec 27, 2007 12:00 AM
223
And while talking about the latest row in Orissa, let's keep a sense of balance. Only one person has died so far. This is not a serial mass bombing or multiple assassination, or a greneade tossing or AK-47 firing. Remember that the India security agencies recently prevented an Islamic terror cell from killing Mayawati in UP. Yet all Indian commentators can talk about is Modi and Orissa.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
222
It is a sad commentary on us Hindus, secular or not, if it takes someone like Modi, who directed and abetted the slaughter and rape of innocent children, women, and men, to give us a sense of pride or self-worth. It is sadder still that the likes of B. Raman need this boost as well. And it is incomprehensible that what should make any decent person horrified, angry and deeply ashamed is what provides a sense of honour and self-worth. I guess that this is the Kali Yuga decadence that has been mentioned in our scripture. Given the aftermath of the massacre of Sikhs and the Gujarat pogrom, it bears repeating that a tradition is being set in India of rewarding genocide with political windfalls.

Hari Chathrattil
Syracuse, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
221
Even God can't save India if Narendra Modi is our only workable answer to secular hypocrisy.
XYZ
Los Angeles, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
220
B. Raman,

>> The disappointment on the faces of some of the anchors was to be seen to be believed

Those with secular humanist/democratic sensibilities may naturally have a dislike for Modi approach (which is the anti-thesis of the idea of secular democracy/humanism).

>> Modi is becoming the icon of a growing number of Hindus not only in India, but also in the Hindu diaspora spread across the world
>> for large sections of the Hindus--young and old, even more among the young than among the old-- he gave them a sense of pride in their identity as Hindus

A similar phenomenon can be seen about the likes of Osama Bin Laden as well? Not everyone need Bin Ladens, Thackerays, Modis etc to assert identity. This is merely fanning and thriving of insecurities of people (rather than building positive hopes and attitudes on doing what is right/just). Would the NRI supporters of Modi support a leader with Modi kind of ideology (as reflected in 2002 riots) as rulers in the countries they are living? It is a sad state of affairs if secular democracy/humanism and hindu identity are incompatible.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
219
Osama Bin Laden would never run for an election, and that too win it twice in a multi-party system, in a country with a strog democratic base and history. So the analogy is silly. Have Kumar and others considered the possibilty that , among other reasons, Modi was elected because the people of Gujarat didn't realy fancy the alternatives, Congress, JD, whatever?
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
218
Babu/Bodepudi,

>> Especially true regarding the Muslim genocides against Hindus-Buddhists, chronicled with pride by the Arab historians.

Outdone only by your mendacious history!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
217
>> It is a sad state of affairs if secular democracy/humanism and hindu identity are incompatible.

Just as Al Qaeda is trying to hijack Islam, Moditvadis are trying to hijack Hinduism. Their rhetoric finds resonance in their followers. Both may work havocs, but both will prove to be ephemeral.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
216
Babu,

"Especially true regarding the Muslim genocides against Hindus-Buddhists, chronicled with pride by the Arab historians"

You live in the US and I'm guessing you are at least educated enough to post in these forums. Do you suffer from some sort of acute mental retardation? No one who harbors so much hate and nonsense within themselves can be normal. You should go get your head checked buddy.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
215
"Just as Al Qaeda is trying to hijack Islam, Moditvadis are trying to hijack Hinduism. Their rhetoric finds resonance in their followers. Both may work havocs, but both will prove to be ephemeral."

You say both will prove ephemeral Ghulam. I am not that confident.

Judging by the rhetoric I've seen on Indian message boards, anti-Muslim hysteria is at an all-time high. Modi gets re-elected despite playing an obvious hand in the Gujarat riots. If people like Babu/Beddapudi represent Indian Hindus, we're (both Hindus and Muslims) doomed.

Al-Qaeda as an organization might succumb, but extremism and anti-West hysteria among muslims is at an all-time high as well. This seems to be the age of religious extremism, a convenient backlash against globalization and disappearing borders.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
214
" Osama Bin Laden would never run for an election, and that too win it twice in a multi-party system, in a country with a strog democratic base and history. So the analogy is silly. Have Kumar and others considered the possibilty that , among other reasons, Modi was elected because the people of Gujarat didn't realy fancy the alternatives, Congress, JD, whatever?"

Varun,

I think there is some truth to your argument. Modi has overseen an economic expanse in Gujarat. And the opposition is completely and utterly toothless.

But I do not believe that Gujaratis have become so desperate that they have to elect someone like Modi who has a clearly partisan agenda.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
213
"Would the NRI supporters of Modi support a leader with Modi kind of ideology (as reflected in 2002 riots) as rulers in the countries they are living? It is a sad state of affairs if secular democracy/humanism and hindu identity are incompatible."

Fantastic point! My theory is that the Hindu psyche has been scarred by almost a millenium of subjugation to muslim rulers and then the British. Deep inside, there's the resentment that we let "outsiders" rule us for so many years and that we just keeled over like a set of lemmings.

Now that we are in power in India and some Hindus have started accumulating wealth, we want to assert our new-found machismo.

My Hindu brothers repeatedly post how Hinduism has never conquered (atleast rarely), never evangelized etc and yet has managed to survived a millenium of outside rule.

I agree with this assertion but ask them - if that is the real essence of our Hindu dharma, why are we scared of muslims/christians NOW? Now that we are actually in power and have a country with an army mightier than our enemies (except China).

For Hindus like me, this is a battle for the true essence of the dharma - the tolerant, all-embracing nature. First it was hijacked by casteists and it has destroyed our faith and led so many people away from the dharma. And now, we have these fundamentalist miscreants trying to create an Abrahamic "eye for an eye" version of Hinduism. This could again, destroy us.

We cannot become better Hindus by adopting Abrahamic values. There are no injunctions to take revenge on anyone in our religion.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
212
Following up on my point from earlier ...

I believe that since Hindus have not ruled the country for hundreds of years, we have essentially forgotten how to! We have 2 options - to let Hinduism become a mirror image of Judeo-Christian religions ... or let Hinduism get back to its roots of tolerance, assimilation and richness of ideas.

One the one hand, we have the sangh parivar guys who are saying that we should rule India as if it were a Hindu country with Hindu values. This is essentially the mirror-image of Muslim countries who prohibit conversions, have little rights for minorities etc.!

On the other hand, we have examples of Hindu rule from the past. The rule of Maurya is one. Here's an excerpt:

"
Mauryan Administration
Maurya empire was the first really large and powerful centralised state in India. It was very well governed, with tempered autocracy at the top and democracy at the city and village levels. Megasthenes, the Greek ambassador at the court of Chandragupta Maurya in Pataliputra, had expressed his admiration for the efficient administration of the empire. His book `Indica` is a collection of comments of other Roman & Greek travelers, and Megasthenes wrote about the prosperity of the Mauryan cities.

He further reported that agriculture was healthy, water abundant and mineral wealth was in plenty. Speaking of the general prosperity, Megasthenes wrote, "the Indians, dressed in bright and rich colors, they liberally used ornaments and gems." He also spoke of the division of society according to occupation and the large number of religious sects and foreigners in the empire."
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
211
Anand,

>> You say both will prove ephemeral Ghulam. I am not that confident.

They both still have ways to go, but as they proceed, they create antibodies which will catch up on them. A rising Modi will raise all sorts of questions among seculars as to what the hell are they doing fooling around with Rahul and the dynasty, when what they need is a charismatic leader who can articulate a secular/growth mantra that can rally the masses. Similarly, the rise of Al Qaeda has set off a search for liberal trends in Islam, and liberal and reformist writers who were long neglected are suddenly getting an ear.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
210
Ghulam,

It is interesting isn't it - that we have essentially two great religions, struggling to hold their identities. And whats interesting to me is that this struggle has coincided with role-reversals in both faiths.

Islam ruled the world for many centuries and then lost its power and now is atleast militarily/economically inferior to the west. Hinduism was ruled OVER by muslims/christians and now has regained its power.

Both faiths seem to be struggling with their new identities. And as they struggle, it has allowed the opportunity for extremists to take over and create their own versions/interpretations of the faiths.

The hope is that followers of both faiths realize that this vacuum and transition has allowed people to hijack their faiths.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
209
Anand,

India is the preponderant regional power, but an undertone of insecurity exists, which can be exploited to create the kind of paranoia and hate that yield political dividends. The Muslim world is proving to be vulnerable to a fundamentalist upsurge which if not checked could be disastrous.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
208
Raman´s article is an insult to NRIs. He may be a shameless supporter of Modi-bin-Laden but certainly my children are ashamed of this self-styled Hindu leader.

NRIs have stood on their own feet even when Modi-bin-Laden was a thumb sucking kid. Our children will be ashamed if someone says Modi is their leader. In fact corrupt leaders and corrupt MPs & MLAs can never be our children´s hero/leader.

Every self respecting Hindu NRI should demand Raman´s apology for insulting us.
Saraswathi
Zurich, Switzerland
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
207
"These were set up by the Constituent Assembly and the Parliament without opposition"

The same constitution also says UCC must be implemented. The same constitution also says the special status to JK must be removed. When BJP says(or said ) those things, they were branded fascists.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
206
Ganesan,

>> The same constitution also says UCC must be implemented. The same constitution also says the special status to JK must be removed.

True. But the subject under discussion was whether certain items were the result of the so-called pseudo-secularism.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
205
All this silly hand-wringing and whining by posters: let the people of Gujarat vote the BJP out if they are dissatisfied with them at some later date. That's how democracy works( duh!). Modi and the BJP will not, unlike the Islamists, Khmer Rouge, Nazis or Maoists, start a violent insurgency to overturn theelection results. Remember too that in India, much more so than in the US( for example) you vote for the party, not the individual, though an individual can project a certain amount of charisma, like Modi and Rajiv Gandhi.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
204
The parties which use immoral methods to win elections are congress and cpm. They take support of Naxals, Islamists, illegal people from Bangladesh to win elections. This vacuum in morality is where Modi steps in. He is a clean and uncorrupted person unlike congress party leaders who amass billions of wealth. This is the real issue. Not secularism or Hindu fundamentalism.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
203
And not to forget that he does make many Hindus proud as Raman rightly says. His macho image provides succour to us debilitated souls.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
202
>> They take support of Naxals, Islamists, illegal people from Bangladesh to win elections. This vacuum in morality is where Modi steps in.

Doesn't he take the support of Bajrangi murderers and rapists?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
201
>> His (Modi's) macho image provides succour to us debilitated souls.

Where have I heard that before?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
200
"We have 2 options - to let Hinduism become a mirror image of Judeo-Christian religions ... or let Hinduism get back to its roots of tolerance, assimilation and richness of ideas."

Hinduism has in many ways adopted the judeo-christian values, because the judeo-christian values themselves acted as a supplement to some of the Hindu values while Hinduism has been going through a tough phase. The values of democracy were firmly imbibed since the times of Indus valley civilization(or maybe before if the future research finds any such evidence). The course Hinduism should take will of course be defined by the people you call as fundamentalists while people like you go on appeasing the Muslims. To be able to define Hinduism and decide it's future course, one has to bring all it's constituents under one banner, which of course is not the goal of so called secularists. So the task is left for the more extremist breed.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
199
"Maurya empire was the first really large and powerful centralised state in India. It was very well governed, with tempered autocracy at the top and democracy at the city and village levels."

"He also spoke of the division of society according to occupation and the large number of religious sects and foreigners in the empire."


This approach is what Hindus need. Just treatment to all, but the nation ruled by Hindu dictums, in which case minorities will have realtively more rights than minorities else-where because Hinduism in essence respects all the religions. When you can appreciate the tolerant values of Hinduism, and seem to deride the intolerant ethos in other religions, then you very well should appreciate the humane approach of Hindu administered rule.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
198
B Raman
If Narendra Modi is our only workable answer to secular hypocrisy, even God can't help India. Please explain why should Modi make Hindus feel proud because under Modi's watch, hundreds of defenceless Muslim Indians were surrounded by mobs and burnt to death for days while the state administration did nothing? Those who committed all those gruesome killings are even today walking free. This is nothing to be proud of. Please don't speak for all Hindus.
XYZ
Los Angeles, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
197
>>if it takes someone like Modi, who directed and abetted the slaughter and rape of innocent children, women, and men, to give us a sense of pride or self-worth...

If you have any proof of modi doing any of the above, please file a PIL in Indias supreme court or file a case against him . Better still come to Gujarat , build a political party with like minded "liberals" like faruki and fight against modi.

If you are just shooting your mouth and do not have any proof , which is legally tenable, give it a rest and enjoy the new year eve in US.

People of Gujarat have exercised their democratic right to chose their leader. If that makes you sad, buy a jumbo box of kleenex and cry till the next elections in 2012.
Shankar
Bangalore, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
196
"Similarly, the rise of Al Qaeda has set off a search for liberal trends in Islam, and liberal and reformist writers who were long neglected are suddenly getting an ear."

There is NO liberal, liberal trend or liberal reformists in Islam or among its followers. None whatsoever. Few have been anointed with the liberal label. They are hardcore fundamentalists wearing the garb and speaking the language of a liberal. People born in Islam and who indeed became liberal - Rushdie and Warraq come to mind - are not Islamic any more and are in fact hounded to death by the so-called liberals that the writer of the above quoted words speaks of.
Nikhil Malhotra
Nashville, United States
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
195
Nikhil,

>> There is NO liberal, liberal trend or liberal reformists in Islam or among its followers.

You may want to read Charles Kurzman's "Liberal Islam", which quotes from hundreds of Liberal Muslim writers, and focuses on 32 authors from 19 countries, with a chapter devoted to each.

You may also want to look at the recent series of seven articles in The Guardian by Ali Eteraz titled "The Roots of Islamic Reform". Here is the link :


http://commentisfree.gu..._of_islamic_reform.html


Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
194
Faruki,

You either did not read or did not understand the following words from my post.

"Few have been anointed with the liberal label. They are hardcore fundamentalists wearing the garb and speaking the language of a liberal."

Nikhil Malhotra
Nashville, United States
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
193
Nikhil,

>> "Few have been anointed with the liberal label. They are hardcore fundamentalists wearing the garb and speaking the language of a liberal."

I did. You are dead wrong. Read Kurzman's book, then we will talk.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
192
Many commentators, including the likes of Kumar, take a cold, mechanistic approach to this so called Hindu nationalism. They can't see that it is quite compatible with liberalism, democracy and modernity, as its proponents have asserted time and again. They are always looking to link/equate it with Al Qaeda( by the way, how so?) or the Nazis. Absolutely ridiculous,but it keeps coming up. People who make those idiotic claims are trying to superimpose some textbook rules onto India, rather than really feel the pulse of the people or speak from the heart. One wonders if they even know India at all, to make those kind of comments.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
191
>> You may want to read Charles Kurzman's "Liberal Islam", which quotes from hundreds of Liberal Muslim writers, and focuses on 32 authors from 19 countries, with a chapter devoted to each.

Talking about India, could you please name a few liberal Muslim leaders with credible following? That would be more concrete. Thanks.
vijay
Chennai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
190
I fully agree with Mr. Raman that Modi is fast becoming the favourite of young Hindus who would like to be less apologetic of their Hindus identity.

The shameless Hindu bashing by Congress and Communists (even to the extent of coining the term "Hindu Terrorists") is definitely pushing Hindus towards Mr. Modi.

Journalists, especially those related to CPM (like NDTV's boss Pranoy Roy, whose is married to Brinda Karat's sister) and Congress, have been running the propaganda against Narendra Modi. During the entire Gujarat elections, it was a daily ritual to see some UPA members declaring Modi as "mass murderer" or "biggest threat to Human Rights". I am happy that the propaganda failed to have any impact.

I want to ask Pranoy Roy (of NDTV) and other Modi bashers as to why they chose to ignore thousands killed by CPM workers in Nandigram (thousands of women were raped and murdered). Why they ignored the plight of thousands of Adivasis in Congress ruled Assam (few days back they were brutally raped and murdered).

If Bengal and Assam CMs are not mass murderers, then how can Modi be.
skdonweb
Bangalore, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
189
Narendra Modi provides a sense of pride that has been missing since congi commi traotors have come into power. We are PROUD OF HIM.
Congis no only one thing muslim appeasement started by Mahatama Gandhi to gather votes at the cost of national integrity. We have a PM who is no more then a LDC of third rate italian mafioso. Becoming congi vote bank has been detrimental for muslims. If they had tried to become part of the mainstream and tried to develop themselves without the satans(congis) support then they would have been far better placed. India had great muslims who have contributed so much for our country and India is proud of them. Muslims would be far better placed if they they had understood congo commi crooks properly. Parsis were in minority and they have achieved great feats because they refused to walk on crutches.
Jitendra
Melbourne, Australia
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
188
Narendra Modi provides a sense of pride that has been missing since congi commi traotors have come into power. We are PROUD OF HIM.
Congis no only one thing muslim appeasement started by Mahatama Gandhi to gather votes at the cost of national integrity. We have a PM who is no more then a LDC of third rate italian mafioso. Becoming congi vote bank has been detrimental for muslims. If they had tried to become part of the mainstream and tried to develop themselves without the satans(congis) support then they would have been far better placed. India had great muslims who have contributed so much for our country and India is proud of them. Muslims would be far better placed if they they had understood congo commi crooks properly. Parsis were in minority and they have achieved great feats because they refused to walk on crutches.
Jitendra
Melbourne, Australia
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
187
Vinod,

" All the glory of the Mauryan empire was decimated by the Invading Muslim rulers."

You obviously don't know a thing about history. Google the Maurya dynasty and understand which century they ruled India in.

"Muslim countries can then never be a mirror image of India."

On the other hand, the parivar and their fans like you are trying their level best to make India become the mirror image of an intolerant middle east.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
186
Jitendra,

"Parsis were in minority and they have achieved great feats because they refused to walk on crutches."

It is completely nonsensical to try to compare the miniscule Parsee community to the 140+ million strong indian muslim community.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
185
All i care is that he is neither corrupt nor corruptible.. Good enough reason to make him PM>
Rahul
Delhi, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
184
>> I fully agree with Mr. Raman that Modi is fast becoming the favourite of young Hindus who would like to be less apologetic of their Hindus identity.

Hindus who are less young, like Advani and Vajpayee, and even less young like Godse and Savarkar were apologetic. Modi finally breaks from the past and provides Hindus with pride. What a savior!

>> The shameless Hindu bashing by Congress and Communists (even to the extent of coining the term "Hindu Terrorists") is definitely pushing Hindus towards Mr. Modi.

It makes perfect sense for India's largest political party (INC) to indulge in Hindu bashing in a country that is 80% Hindu.

>> Journalists, especially those related to CPM (like NDTV's boss Pranoy Roy, whose is married to Brinda Karat's sister) and Congress, have been running the propaganda against Narendra Modi. During the entire Gujarat elections, it was a daily ritual to see some UPA members declaring Modi as "mass murderer" or "biggest threat to Human Rights". I am happy that the propaganda failed to have any impact.

The average Indian obviously does not care about English speaking media. It is our image obsessed friends who do.

>> I want to ask Pranoy Roy (of NDTV) and other Modi bashers as to why they chose to ignore thousands killed by CPM workers in Nandigram (thousands of women were raped and murdered).

There is no election going on in Bengal.

>> Why they ignored the plight of thousands of Adivasis in Congress ruled Assam (few days back they were brutally raped and murdered).

No election in Assam either.

>> If Bengal and Assam CMs are not mass murderers, then how can Modi be.

Please provide transcripts of at least one interview in which a journalist called Modi "mass murderer". Just one.

Thanks.
vijay
Chennai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
183
>> It is completely nonsensical to try to compare the miniscule Parsee community to the 140+ million strong indian muslim community.

That is not true. Every country has a narrative of the "model minority" who are showcased as being something for all minorities to aspire towards. In India, it is the Parsees.

vijay
Chennai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
182
"If they had tried to become part of the mainstream and tried to develop themselves without the satans(congis) support then they would have been far better placed."

Fair enough. The congress hasn't done anything for hindus or muslims. They are intent on keeping the Nehru dynasty going.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
181
>> Islam ruled the world for many centuries and then lost its power and now is atleast militarily/economically inferior to the west.

Why do you think they ruled over the world? Moorish Spain was the only tenuous foothold ever established in Europe by Islamic empires. Even at the height of their power, they were decisively defeated by the Mongols. The fact that Mongols later converted to Islam is what leads to the confusion surrounding a continuous Muslim domination of Arab and Perisan lands. Babar of Mughal fame was descendent from these Mongol clans.
vijay
Chennai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
180
Varun Shekhar,

"Many commentators, including the likes of Kumar, take a cold, mechanistic approach to this so called Hindu nationalism. They can't see that it is quite compatible with liberalism, democracy and modernity, as its proponents have asserted time and again. They are always looking to link/equate it with Al Qaeda( by the way, how so?) or the Nazis. Absolutely ridiculous,but it keeps coming up. People who make those idiotic claims are trying to superimpose some textbook rules onto India, rather than really feel the pulse of the people or speak from the heart. One wonders if they even know India at all, to make those kind of comments."

The pulse of India may not always be on the right beat. Neither the al-qaeda or the taliban, or the Nazi party for that matter grew without public support. Nazis were elected to power in Germany and had the "pulse" of the people.

The politics of the parivar and the BJP is clear - it is based on communal division and the promise of a glorious Hindu rashtra, when infact what they are promising is completely antithetical to Hindu values.

The Cong/Communists pander to minorities while the BJP panders to the majority. Pandering of any sort is bad! You cannot abet one monster to fight another.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
179
"Why do you think they ruled over the world? Moorish Spain was the only tenuous foothold ever established in Europe by Islamic empires. Even at the height of their power, they were decisively defeated by the Mongols. The fact that Mongols later converted to Islam is what leads to the confusion surrounding a continuous Muslim domination of Arab and Perisan lands. Babar of Mughal fame was descendent from these Mongol clans."

I wasn't being literate when I say that muslims ruled the world. Just the Ottoman empire alone ruled over middle east, north africa and the balkans.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
178
Chaitanya,

"This approach is what Hindus need. Just treatment to all, but the nation ruled by Hindu dictums, in which case minorities will have realtively more rights than minorities else-where because Hinduism in essence respects all the religions. When you can appreciate the tolerant values of Hinduism, and seem to deride the intolerant ethos in other religions, then you very well should appreciate the humane approach of Hindu administered rule."

What you are proposing is actually similar to the islamic rule of dhimmis - minorities protected with a jizya tax - with everything else being done according to "Islamic" values.

Unlike Islam, Hinduism does not have any codified laws for political governance that I know of. So the parivar saying that they are going to form a "Hindu rashtra" is arrant nonsense and completely antithetical to the dharma.

The sooner people like you realize this, the better. Otherwise, we will end up looking like a fundamentalist muslim country with hindus taking the place of muslims.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
177
Vijay,

>> Talking about India, could you please name a few liberal Muslim leaders with credible following? That would be more concrete.

Of the 32 authors discussed in the book, 6 are from the subcontinent, including Humayun Kabir, Fazlur Rahman, Shabbir Akhtar and S.M.Zafar. There are several other Indians, both living and dead, who have extended references, but not whole chapters devoted to them. The book is about liberalism in Islam, not liberalism in politics. Liberalism is a minority tradition in Islam, which is growing slowly both in the west and in Asia, but the vast majority still belong either to customary Islam or to revivalist Islam. The latter would include the jihadis.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
176
"How do you expect the average muslim to vote for a party that has repeatedly marginalized and antagonized them? "

ANAND

There is no way ahead except that Muslims and BJP come together.It will be in the interest of all.

Congress and other State\Reginol level Parties have done nothing for Minorities.

Will it be news to you that in Gujrat Muslims on Congress tickets have wone from Hindu majority segments ? I have no analysis yet how much percentage of Muslims voted for BJP.Soon these figs will come out too.

So slowly and slowly voter is becoming wiser.

There are interesting Comments \Analysis how BJP wone and why Congress lost.

Another issue is Islamic terrorism. Gujraties( Muslims included) have sent a clear cut message that there should be no soft face to Terrorism.VOTE WAS NOT ANTI-MUSLIM OR PRO-HINDU.It was a negation of Congress's soft face to Terror.

Nearly 7000 innocent Aam Hindus\Muslims have been killed during the three years rule of UPA .The corresponding figure of Terrorist killed is less than 100.

Uninformrd voter is more intelligent \ wiser than us .
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
175
"Unlike Islam, Hinduism does not have any codified laws for political governance that I know of."

Hinduism is a ever changing religion. When surroundings change, the religion changes. When Hindus like me and you cannot arrive at a concise representation of "Hinduism" then there will be natural forces which make sure things are codified. In chaos, codification is the only mantra, so that the confusion is reduced. By the turn of the century, India will very well be a "Hindu Rashtra" or whatever they call it.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
174
Vimal is a Coolie, his father grand fathers are all Coolies.
Dipak Bose
Calcutta, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
173
Raj and Vimal are Coolies, their fathers and grandfathers are all Coolies, Khottas, eating Chatu sitting on the pavements of Gujarat.Just coolies
Dipak Bose
Calcutta, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
172
GF:
'downtrodden minority' as a description for moslems in India is a blatant untruth. The second president of India was Zakir Hussain, as also the first minister for education, Azad.
Even now, the ex-president and current vicepresident are moslems.

One of the past directors of DRDL, Hyderabad once told me that the medical reimbursements for moslem emoployees was a big drain on his budget, since they had many wives and dozens of kids, their medical claims, true and false, going many times their salaries for their jobs.

Much of illegal money flow from dubai to kerala to calcutta, on to bdesh is also due to moslems.

While the country honours them with top jobs, appeases them with multiple haj-trip allownces and what not, this 'minority' repays with exploitation and antinationalism, harbouring terrorists also.

It may be more appropriate to say this minority is really 'downtreading' on the nation to which it has no real alliegence, utilizing franchise only to strategically empower anti-nationals and criminals into govt, with the sole object of keeping india as underdeveloped as pak and bdesh, until it can also be islamized by their disproportionate population explosion.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
171
This is absolutely brilliant! I am a Hindu, I am proud to be one and therefore I must prove it by my active participation in genocide or by my implicit consent to such acts!! Is there any point in arguing that Hindus in an Islamic country are treated badly? How can a wrong right another wrong? Is there no other way to assert our rights other than killing others? The pride in Hinduism that Naremdra Modi accords to his fans and admirers is not much different from the kind that Adolf Hitler provided for the people of post WWI Germany. Please, this is not about asserting one's rights but about extremism, that will eventually lead only to self destruction.
Aninda Sardar
Calcutta, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
170
For once, this election was fought not on caste, communalism, or popular slogans. The poll plank was only development, development and development. But the p-secs would rather commit hara-kiri than admit that. So all of them crawled out of the woodwork in droves and an eager leftist media gave them a big helping hand in raising the ghost of post-Godhra riots. The two together tried everything in the book – giving communal interpretations to even Modi’s burps, fanning the rebel fires, trashing the excellent work done by Modi, television debates where BJP sympathizers were outnumbered 2 to 8, but nothing worked.

The Gujarat public didn’t vote to their caste but cast their votes in favour of development. That’s a slap on the face of all ‘secular’ parties and media. No wonder they all are smarting under the impact.
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
169
Chaitanya,

"Hinduism is a ever changing religion. When surroundings change, the religion changes. When Hindus like me and you cannot arrive at a concise representation of "Hinduism" then there will be natural forces which make sure things are codified. In chaos, codification is the only mantra, so that the confusion is reduced. By the turn of the century, India will very well be a "Hindu Rashtra" or whatever they call it."

It is indeed very sad to see the utter degradation of Hinduism at the hands of the Hindus like you. In many ways, the abrahamic religions have won.

Hindus today want to follow a religion that is codified into politics. Hindus today want to follow a religion that treats minorities poorly. Hindus want a religion that permeates all aspects of a person's life. In other words, Hindus today want Hinduism to become the Indian version of Islam/Christianity.

I won't be surprised if a decade from now, there will be moral police out to ensure that every Hindu wears a tilak, every Brahman becomes a priest ...
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
168
Kiran,

I think you make a valid point. The opposition parties have made a mockery of themselves by not offering the Gujarat voters a viable alternative to the Modi government. Plus the Modi govt has done well to create an economic boom.

But this doesn't mean that Modi's government should not be held accountable for the Gujarat atrocities.

Economic growth does not have to come at the expense of communal harmony. Nor does hindutva have anything to do with economic growth.

Communal harmony is a vital ingredient for India's future success. If that is destablised no amount of short-term economic growth will do us any good.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
167
Gurcharan Das, one of India's most pro-growth economic policy makers, writes this in his blog:

"What is at stake in the upcoming Gujarat election is thus a clash inside each citizen’s imagination, and it comes down to how we view other human beings. Politics makes one adopt polarized positions. The reality is that Gujarat is both prosperous and genocidal. One wants Gujarat to flourish but also to be decent. Nazi Germany was very efficient. The choice in the end is easy—vote out Modi! For a person who has just climbed out of poverty, however, it may not be so easy. Ideally, one should throw out the rascals but keep their good policies, but one can’t trust Congress to do that. Gujarat, like India, is in the midst of a hundred flowerings. Some of these have turned out to be noxious and the only way out in a democracy is to remove the toxic ones at the polls."

For those of you who think that Modi = economic growth, you may want to think again!
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
166
J,

Your views are well taken. But I feel that your views on "Hindus defending against terrorism" etc are misplaced.

Do you honestly think that killing innocent muslims is the way to "defend" against other muslims blowing up trains?

Do you honestly think that those innocents deserved to die because someone else in their community?

Don't you believe that by victimizing even innocent muslims, we are strengthening the hands of terrorists? Terrorist organizations now have one more excuse to recruit individuals.

We cannot protect against terrorism by inciting terrorism ourselves. We cannot prevent a Godhra happening by creating a Gujarat massacre. It is morally repugnant and strategically dangerous.

I am not suggesting the muslim terrorists should go scotfree. But I'm against creating hindu terrorists to fight muslim terrorists.

The people who raped, pillaged and killed in Gujarat were not "defending" against muslim terrorists. They were criminals and terrorists, just like the ones who burnt the train in Godhra. If you don't see that distinction, I'm pity your state.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
165
The term "pseudo-secularist" is a convenient term to dismiss anyone who opposes Hindu fundamentalism. It is very similar to the term "islamophobe" used by muslims to dismiss anyone who opposes muslim fundamentalism. Amazing how evil minds think alike.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
164
Vinod,

"ANAND(ADNAN),
YOU ARE ALSO A FINE EXAMPLE OF PSEUDO SECULARIST AS YOU SHED TEARS ONLY FOR THOSE KILLED IN THE GUJARATH RIOTS BUT FEAR TO SAY OR CRY FOR THOSE MASSACRED IN GODHRA.This could the most simplest explanation of a pseudo secularist."

I won't misspell your name.

If you read my posts you'll see that I don't condone either the Godhra train burning nor the riots that followed.

Ofcourse I don't expect you to be so discerning. You are the type who will call anyone who disagrees with you a "pseudo secularist" "hindu hater" etc. You can only support people who condemn the Godhra incident and say the Gujarat riots were a fight against terrorists.

I don't mind being called pseudosecularist honestly. It is better to be a pseudosecularist than be an inhuman fanatic like you.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
163
Anand,

"In other words, Hindus today want Hinduism to become the Indian version of Islam/Christianity."

When others assert their religion so ferociously, saying allah uh akbar, may the lord bless you, at the drop of a hat, why should Hindus stay still. Maybe they will stay still in Indonesia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia but India will adopt new ways to tackle such in_your_face_religious_dogma directed towards the Hindus.

The conversions will have to stop somewhere. People just can't wait and watch their civilization wiped out bit by bit. When Hindus are not after converting africans, chinese, arabs or other nationalities, there is no reason why Indian administration must pay lip service to the conversion activities from other religions, funded by vested interests.

What you say about, "I won't be surprised if a decade from now, there will be moral police out to ensure that every Hindu wears a tilak, every Brahman becomes a priest," is untenable in the changing circumstances. Brahminism is not the be all and end all of Hinduism. The priests need to be picked from volunteers who are able to do the job, and criterion of caste to select the priests will be rendered a unworkable model just as the myth of only brahmins need to participate in education has been demolished.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
162
Chaitanya,

"The conversions will have to stop somewhere. People just can't wait and watch their civilization wiped out bit by bit."

Contrary to your fears, Hinduism has weathered almost 1,000 years of Muslim and Christian rule. If the "spread by the sword" religions could not convert Indians for all these years, what makes you think that our civilization will be wiped out?

Considering this, don't you think your fears are a wee bit irrational and unfounded? Contrary to your assertions, Hindu principles of meditation, yoga, vedanta are being spread all over the world. Many westerners are drawn to our philosophies.

We cannot outlaw conversions or evangelizing. People should be free to choose the path, faith and religion they choose to. Banning conversions is pure intolerance.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
161
Vinod,

"I regrett that I am dealing with a poster like you whose brains seems to have filled with deep green shit."

Interesting choice of words. Thanks for your wonderful display of tolerance.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
160
"there is no reason why Indian administration must pay lip service to the conversion activities from other religions, funded by vested interests."

Once again, the bogey of conversions has been raised. Another urban legend that has been continually dished out by the parivar "look how the christians and muslims are converting everyone. soon there will be no hindu left in india. we will be ruled by the church or the mullahs." Only helps the bajrang dal burn down churches and kill innocent priests.

History has shown that the Hindu religion has weathered an entire millenium of muslim/christian rule without resorting to the intolerant, violent strains of fundamentalism we are seeing today.

There is no doubt that there are vested interests who lure people into converting through money etc. But we cannot give up hindu ideals of tolerance to prevent conversion!

The joke is that these idiots want us to give up our dharma(by becoming intolerant and vile) to prevent others from converting. What a silly, silly argument.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
159
Vinod,

"But your brother Rahul nor your aunt Sonia could not impress."

If I was Rahul's brother, Sonia wouldn't be my aunt.

Plus, if I were Rahul's brother, I would be very very rich. I would be vacationing in Monaco, not replying to posts from fanatics like you.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
158
Vinod,

"Mr.Das may be sharing the congressi or communist views on economics."

Your ignorance is quite unbelievable. Gurcharan Das will die of a heart attack if you call him a Congress supporter. He will probably murder you if you call him a Communist.

Once again, I'm glad that you don't agree with me. I'd be very very unhappy if an ignorant, extremist fool like you actually thought that I was making sense.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
157
Anand,

I think there are as many Hindus living on this planet as those living on this planet whose ancestors converted from Hinduism to Islam. Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Pakistan, the much touted 150 million(or 140 million) muslims together account for 800 million Muslims.

The conversions to christianity have really been very limited even during the British rule. Most of the christians of Kerala were Christians from the times of Syria being ruled by Romans. The conversions to christianity have picked up in the last hundred years, starting with North-East and peripheries of south indian coast, including Tamilnadu, AP, Orissa, Maharashtra. The majorities in several north-eastern states have been reduced to minorities in less than a century. This is deliberate and forced way of trying to the change the nature of how people behave and live for a desired purpose that definetely is not in the interest of people living in this part of the world.

The acceptance of yoga, meditation by western people has more to do with being more productive in their lives, just as Indians have adopted many western findings, including the Biblical time-scale constructed by western people. It has nothing to do with religion. What is productive will be adopted everywhere.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
156
The secular hypocrisy that Raman alludes to is party true. Secularists have been unable to understand that you cannot shut religion out of people's lives altogether. The secularist thinks that acknowledging Ramayana or Mahabharatha and encouraging students to read them in schools (just like kids in the US or Britain read religious classics) is wrong. We cannot shut Hinduism out of India. Our fabric is composed of our Hindu past, our Buddhist past, our Jain past and influenced by islam and christian ideas.

But none of that justifies supporting a communal politician like Narendra Modi. It is clear that secularism has created a vacuum. Unfortunately, that vacuum is being exploited by the most extreme elements of the hindu and muslim communities.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
155
Chaitanya,

"I think there are as many Hindus living on this planet as those living on this planet whose ancestors converted from Hinduism to Islam. Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Pakistan, the much touted 150 million(or 140 million) muslims together account for 800 million Muslims."

I think you have some of your facts wrong (Indonesia was never a Hindu country really - it was influenced by Hinduism and still is. Muslims in Indonesia still retain Sanskrit names.)

You have to understand that different people are drawn to different faiths, for whatever reason. Islam was spread to Indonesia not through conquest, but through trade. Same goes for the moppilas in Kerala - it was spread by Arab traders, not by muslim conquerers. Same goes for Goan christians, Syrian christians etc. Asoka converted to Buddhism on his own accord, as did Chandragupta. So you have to first acknowledge that many (if not most) conversions happen because people CHOOSE to.

We cannot and should not prevent people from converting if they choose to. We should prevent people from exploiting others through religion (either by luring them with money etc).

We also cannot try to copy some muslim countries which have outlawed conversion. They are following sharia laws. Should we adopt sharia-like laws in our country? Is that what the hindu dharma teaches? Thats not what Vivekananda prescribed. Or Dayanand Saraswati. If you want to do service to Hinduism, talk to your muslim and christian friends about the dharma.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
154
Vinod,

"The enemy number one of the Hindus are the Hindus like you.Hindus can never be like those opportunistic,stone aged ,violent Islam or the cunning one like the Christianity."

Actually I am convinced that YOU are the greatest enemy of Hinduism. You are insulting Christianity and Islam, two great faiths.

Vivekananda wrote "Practical Advaitism (Non-Duality), which looks upon and behaves to all mankind as one’s own soul, was never developed among the Hindus universally. I am firmly persuaded that without the help of practical Islam, theories of Vedantism, however fine and wonderful they may be, are entirely valueless to the vast mass of mankind. For our own motherland, a junction of the two systems Hinduism and Islam is the only hope."

Are you saying your knowledge of Islam is superior to Vivekanandas?
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
153
Anand,

"We cannot and should not prevent people from converting if they choose to. We should prevent people from exploiting others through religion (either by luring them with money etc)."

What you say is appropriate, but most of the conversions are due to luring methods. The few who really choose to, through a perspective of staying with the religion on a long term basis, not influenced by deliberate form of conversion, are really few. There are people who converted to christianity to get hold of a bicycle, a approach which really indicates that they are mislead. And most of the other conversions have to do with healing powers, magic.

It's true that arrival of these conversion missionaries have opened the eyes of some Hindus and they wanted Hindus to reform the degenerate practices so that Hinduism remains an attractive proposition. But the missionaries are still around and they won't stop even while we reform. We know they are not here to serve any good purpose for stability of India.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
152
"Indonesia was never a Hindu country really"

Indonesians were Hindus before they were Muslims. There still is a large Hindu population in Bali.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
151
"GF:>>"BJP, because its agenda drove the minorities in the embrace of the Congress, and in order to cope with the enlarging Hindu vote bank, Congress had to engender some programs that look like appeasement"

So, you are admitting that the congress is only a party of chr and crypto chr groups, basically anti-hindu, expecting hindus to be 'plurally' divided so that an italian family and her chr followers can rule the country, indefinitely.

If the majority hindus manage to get united and vote for hinduist governance, which anyway respects all religions equally, it should not be called 'votebank' politics, it is just natural democracy by majority. Only when minorities vote as a block to get political power much in excess of their electoral strength, or when criminal dynasticians use these as 'votebanks', 'votebank-politics' are to be denigrated and despised.

Majority having a say in national decisions is the very purpose of 'democracy'. I agree that the disunited hindus of post-independance India have really made the minorities like you believe they have a 'divine right' to down-tread the despicable hindu [kafir/pagan] majority, to such an extent that hindus voting together fairly well, even in one state, appears to be a 'democratic crime' in the minds of the pampered minorities. Hope real democracy does assert itself in India.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
150
"Asoka converted to Buddhism on his own accord"

Buddhism is a sister religion of Hinduism. It doesn't make much difference to me if am a Buddhist or Hindu.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
149
Chaitanya,

"There are people who converted to christianity to get hold of a bicycle, a approach which really indicates that they are mislead. And most of the other conversions have to do with healing powers, magic."

>> It is in the best interest of everyone (hindus, christians, all) that the nonsense of christian priests healing through touch is exposed. I'm not sure that most conversions happen this way. The lower caste is genuinely disenchanted with hinduism's inability to do away with the caste system.

"It's true that arrival of these conversion missionaries have opened the eyes of some Hindus and they wanted Hindus to reform the degenerate practices so that Hinduism remains an attractive proposition. But the missionaries are still around and they won't stop even while we reform. We know they are not here to serve any good purpose for stability of India."

>> The missionaries are here to convert. They don't want the caste system to go away. They want the caste system to stay so that more people will convert to christianity etc.

Whatever it is, we cannot ban conversions. It is inhuman to prevent someone from following their path. Hinduism identifies that all paths lead to one. Only petty, narrow-minded people derive satisfaction from saying "our religion is #1" "my religion is the fastest growing" "my faith is the largest in the world" etc. The truly enlightened Hindu understands the stupidity of conversion, reconversion etc.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
148
Anand,

"I'm not sure that most conversions happen this way. The lower caste is genuinely disenchanted with hinduism's inability to do away with the caste system."

There are christians who call themselves as dalits and clamour for reservations, just like Hindu dalits. It indicated that they were misled into christianity. The upper caste christians treat lower castes as untouchables, in many ways worse than what is found in Hinduism of present day.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
147
"Ask the ASI"

There is a difference between a govt agency taking a stance on issues like Rama's historicity and private individuals taking the same stand. I have no problem with people who dispute the historicity of Rama-just as I have no problem with people who doubt the Jesus' story. It is part of quest for truth which every individual needs to undertake to understand the truth.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
146
Chaitanya,

"Buddhism is a sister religion of Hinduism. It doesn't make much difference to me if am a Buddhist or Hindu."

I don't understand what you mean by this. But Buddhists do not call their religion a sister religion of Hinduism. Only some Hindus do.

The philosophy of the Buddha was unique - and different from the thrusts in the vedas and upanishads. His teachings were in many ways amazing breakthroughs into the human psyche.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
145
Anand,

"Whatever it is, we cannot ban conversions. It is inhuman to prevent someone from following their path. Hinduism identifies that all paths lead to one. Only petty, narrow-minded people derive satisfaction from saying "our religion is #1" "my religion is the fastest growing" "my faith is the largest in the world" etc. The truly enlightened Hindu understands the stupidity of conversion, reconversion etc. "

I will choose to be a rational Hindu, rather than a Dumb Hindu who stay put on the top of his hut while his surroundings are being flooded.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
144
"
There are christians who call themselves as dalits and clamour for reservations, just like Hindu dalits. It indicated that they were misled into christianity. The upper caste christians treat lower castes as untouchables, in many ways worse than what is found in Hinduism of present day."

Agreed. It only shows that the caste system has become entrenched in our society. I am not sure how we are ever going to get rid of it.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
143
"I will choose to be a rational Hindu, rather than a Dumb Hindu who stay put on the top of his hut while his surroundings are being flooded."

You see, Hinduism is a very personal religion. There is no need for a community, church/mosque etc. So I wonder why you are so worried whether others follow hindu dharma or not.

Also I find it silly to call conversions " a flood." As I pointed out earlier, Hinduism is well and strong in India - any suggestion that it will die are false, overblown nonsense.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
142
"But Buddhists do not call their religion a sister religion of Hinduism."

Buddhism has adopted many values of Hinduism and many say it was a reformed version of Hinduism projected by Buddha. You would believe that Buddha who was a Hindu was influenced by his surroundings. If Buddhists of today don't identify with Hinduism, it's a problem that has lot do with ethnic nationalities(like the srilankan buddhist-tamil hindu problem) rather than inherent divisions between both the religions.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
141
Chaitanya,

"Buddhism has adopted many values of Hinduism and many say it was a reformed version of Hinduism projected by Buddha."

Two questions arise,

1) What "values" of Hinduism has Buddhism adopted? Please be specific.

2) You say that Buddhism is a reformed version of Hinduism. If so, why don't you follow the reformed version? Why are you still following the unreformed version?

Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
140
Vinod,
Should we accept the atrocities against civilians in India as an act of war or pure terrorism? There is no honour in killing people without warning or generalising a localised provocation. Purely on the logic of escalation it sets off a cycle of violence between civilizations bringing some truth to Samuel P. Huntington’s ‘Clash of Civilizations’. It puts at risk Indian citizens all over the world; in turn it invites reaction on a majority of Hindus who are innocent of even thinking of any wrongdoing. Above all, it provides adequate grist to the fire and brimstone-types whose only logic is to resort to violence at the slightest pretext.

Now to Raman´s secularists theory of defensive Indian. We Indians through 1960 – 2007 have stood on our own feet. No leader worth the salt cared about us. On the other hand we contributed, our little to the country, through remittances and being model immigrants. We needed no Narandra Modi to lead us. All these Modi-bin-ladens came begging for election funds. We have helplessly seen Modi-bin-ladens and other politicians channel crores of rupees in and out of India, so much for austere life, so much for honesty. Mr. Raman who are you trying to fool? When criminal acts of national shame took place (sikh-massacre after Indira Ghandi´s assassination), demolition of Babri Masjid, Gujarat pogram etc) we the techies and bankers were talked about as examples of good Indians as against the political criminals inside India. It is because of our good attitude, tolerance and kind-heartedness that foreigners respect us and certainly not because of Modi-bin-ladens. While we the diaspora had set a good record you (politicians including Raman) have been shaming us time and again. It is because of us Indians today we say “Engal Bharathadesam endru tholl kottuvom” (We are proud to pat ourselves and say OUR INDIA / Bharath Desh).

My children and my fellow Indian´s children (Indian diaspora) are not at all impressed by Narendra Modi or his leadership. Cheap vote bank politics does not make a country proud. Our children ask, “how come this idiot (Narendra Modi) got elected? How do we get rid of him, before he does further damage to our reputation?” Spin doctors like Raman have great imagination (mostly screwed up) and throw them at Indians as facts through media. Our children are slowly learning how corrupt Indian elections are. Our children are well aware of the fact that criminals dominate Indian Parliament and legislatures. Criminals can never become our childrens´ heroes or hopes. Undoubtedly criminals dominate Indian elections and Modi-bin-Laden is criminal chieftain.

Today, a section of our media is highlighting MBL as a hero, the Gujarat election-2007 has put him on that pedestal, would we really like our sons to emulate his rather murky agenda, particularly when targeting non-combatants/civilians? More attacks will cause terrorism to proliferate instead of containing it; it will provide the Bin Ladens of India (both Hindu & Muslim outfits) more recruits. One man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist and vice versa. Can one contain terrorism by countering it with terrorism or by facist methods (a la Shorabuddin episode)? Deliberately targeting unconnected civilians makes Modi-Bin-Laden´s ‘holy war’ suspect, almost as if the act of violence is more important than the stated purity of his campaign.
Saraswathi
Zurich, Switzerland
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
139
Anand,

Hinduism and Buddhism both have numerous gods and both follow the same paths to ultimately achieve Nirvana (a place where all the enlightened beings reside)

Buddhists preach compassion, charity and nonviolence and while Hindus profess pacifism and ahimsa, which is the avoidance of harm to people and animals, they still believe war is justifiable in certain cases. They see it as their duty to fight in a just war. Harming others is wrong but if the war will cause undo suffering to others, then violent acts are justifiable.

The concept of suffering and reincarnation is common in both religions.

These are just few of the points in common...
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
138
Anand:>>"Unlike Islam, Hinduism does not have any codified laws for political governance that I know of"

Hinduistic governance will not be 'manu-ist', following manusmriti. It will only be according to the indian constitution.

No religious social code for hindus. The existing hindu-code will be modified into a common civil code for all indians, including the better features of existing special codes for other religions also.

All citizens will be treated as equal-rights children of bharata-maata. Only, no special privileges will be given to so-called minorities, like: haj allowances, preferential bank loans etc. to moslems, churches allowed to make money on schools, colleges from hindus, with no intereference from govt, while hindu-run schools, colleges, temples will be monitored and exploited by anti-hindu atheists and criminal politicians. That should be welcomed by all good citizens of India.

Only special request from me, please change your psuedonym to Ahmed, instead of Anand. The word 'anand' has high spiritual significance in hinduism, not suited to someone of your ways of thinking.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
137
Anand,

"2) You say that Buddhism is a reformed version of Hinduism. If so, why don't you follow the reformed version? Why are you still following the unreformed version?"

Buddhism was a reformed version in times of Buddha. Now Hinduism is reforming and Buddhism has gone through it's own nation dependent reforms. I don't intend to look like a Tibetan monk. When the Indian Buddhists develop superior means of spiritual worship themselves, i may convert. But it's not in sight for the coming decades at least.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
136
Seshadri,

>> 'downtrodden minority' as a description for moslems in India is a blatant untruth.

The reference was to socio-economic indicators described in the Sachar Report.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
135
Is Liberal Islam growing?

Watch the blogs!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
134
Hindus attack churches on Christmas :


http://news.yahoo.com/s...fhrsd4WA.XKUFXwfyms0NUE
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
133
People like Anand who are constantly making moral equations: remember that Hindu violence or so called "Hindu terrorism", is very localised and episodic. And, bad as it is, it is a reaction to some awful provocation. Islamic/Moslem terrorism is relentless, ideological( i.e based on the idea that Islam must triumph over the non-believers) and transnational. It is the far, far greater danger to India, to Asia and the world. If India were the most perfectly secular country in the world, whatever that means, there would still be Islamic terror, for the simple reason that Islam is not the state religion.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
132
Seshadri,

>> So, you are admitting that the congress is only a party of chr and crypto chr groups.

Do you want to lie about what I said? What I said was that BJP's communalist policies drove the minorities into the Congress camp. That does not negate the fact that secular and liberal Hindus are still in Congress.

>> If the majority hindus manage to get united and vote for hinduist governance, which anyway respects all religions equally, it should not be called 'votebank' politics.

Appeasement of and pandering to a community for votes is vote bank politics. Both the BJP and the Congress indulge in it.

>> Majority having a say in national decisions is the very purpose of 'democracy'.

Please read this :


http://72.14.205.104/se...l=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
131
Another Congressi trick to dilute Sachar Report. A NEW MINORITY COMMISSION FOR CHRISTIANS AND BUDHISTS FORMED ON LINES OF SACHAR COMMISSION.

SO MUSLIMS ARE BEING AGAIN HOODWINKED NOW BY THE GREAT SECULAR JAMAT AS NEW CLAIMANTS TO THE EXISTING MEAGRE QUOTAES ARE BEING ADDED.

SACHAR REPORT 2005.NEW REPORT WILL COME 2009.

WAIT TILL THEM MUSLIM FREINDS.

A REACTION TO GUJRAT DEFEAT BECAUSE CONGRESS COULD NOT WIN WITH SOLELY DEPENDING UPON MUSLIM VOTES ?

FREINS A HEATED DEBATE WILL SOON BURST OUT ON THIS BOARD.

SHARPEN YOUR NAILS !
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
130
cOMMISSION ON BUDHISTS AND CHRISTIANS NOW FORMRD.
Left are Sikhs,Jains,various Sub-communities of Hindus ,Shias,etc .So a new commission they too will demand and will be formed too.
Recommendations off all these Commissions will also be implemented.

FINALLY THIS COVE RCOMPELTE POPULATION OF INDIA.

Whom Congress is fooling now ?
Mera Bharat Mahan !
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
129
Babu/Bodepudi,

>> There is nothing "sacred" or "holy" about these structures (mosques) to the Muslims themselves.

Only an evil minded bigot would start a war on structures where people pray.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
128
On Saturday 23rd December I was horrified to read a front page report in The Times of India,Mumbai, stating ‘Satta bazaar bookies are predicting Congress win”. That a paper of such stature can stoop to such a low level as to report bookies is disgusting. Subsequent results demonstrated how much biased its reporting has become which was hell bent on finding anything that support your myopic views and theories. I mourn demise of a conservative news paper that once was.
samarth
mumbai, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
127
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> Look at the hatred between muslims and Hindus in this forum.

One has to just look at you!

>> Does the existence of a large 1.5 billion muslim community bring any benefits to them or the rest of humanity. Not many in the west can see it.
Just like Hindus they are repulsed by Islam and muslims.

Projecting your hatred onto others! Have you ever wondered how small minded your posts are?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
126
Electoral fight between Congress and BJP is nothing but sham. There is no difference between the two. Look at history. BJP voters are converted from Congress. Upper castes didn't see their interest getting served with Congress, so they switched side.
Remember V.P.Singh's OBC reservation and subsequent Vajpayee's Mandal vs. Kamandal.

Unfortunate part of Gujarat's politics is that they don't have Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayawati. At least not yet.
But here is an interesting trend. BJP's win in northern Gujarat is partly due to the presence of BSP, they cut Congress's SC/ST vote bank. Looks like Uttar Pradesh history is set to repeat in Gujarat.
Rajesh
Phoenix, United States
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
125
G.FARUKI
"Only an evil minded bigot would start a war on structures where people pray."

Just go to any north Indian town, Gwalior comes readily to mind, and see defaced idols at places "where people pray", better still go to the Kutub Minar complex and read the board put up by ASI (Archaelogical Survey of India) stating that 23, yes not 1 or 2 but 23 (IN ONE PLACE)Hindu and Jain temples were destroyed and the debris was used to put up another structure "where people pray". Shall we leave the mental state of such people out of the discussion and look at the issues as rational beings.
vikas ranjan
delhi, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
124
Vikas,

>> Just go to any north Indian town, Gwalior comes readily to mind, and see defaced idols at places "where people pray".

Destroying places where people pray is dastardly.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
123
Congress instead of any strategy had a series of pipe dreams for Gujarat and the funniest of them all was the reliance on 'Bijli Chors' of the diamond belt coming to the aid of the party. The stupid Con- gressis thought that since Modi has come down heavily of electicity thefts while ensuring round the clock supply, all the aggrieved thieves will rally round Sonia Mata, Con-gressis forgot that outside their party people are by and large honest.
vikas ranjan
delhi, India
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
122
The writer surely neglects the most important reason in his list of things that for which Hindus in India and abroad admire Modi. And that is his viceral hatred for all thinngs Islamic. I find it astonishing that a man who has won successive elections on the back of using state power to terrorise an already brutalised and vulnerable minority should get such an easy ride. As an NRI I am greatful that India still has secular 'hypocrites' who will stand up to the bullying of fascists like Modi.
Rajwinder Pal
Birmingham, West Midlands, UK
Dec 26, 2007 12:00 AM
121
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> You talk of the secular/growth mantra. Are muslims even interereted in one of the two.

Muslims, Muslims, Muslims, Muslims .... do you ever think of anything else? The subject I was discussing was leadership of the Congress party. You are just pathetic!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
120
"Bharathiyar, the Tamil poet who inspired millions of Tamil youth to join the independence struggle under Mahatma Gandhi, wrote: "Tamizhanenru Chollada, Talai Nimirndhu Nillada"
"Say You Are a Tamil, Hold Your Head High."

The verse I think was written by Namakkal Kavingar-not Bharathiyar.

"They do not accept the argument that a Hindu, who asserts his rights, ceases to be a secularist. "

Amen! I would hope hindus proudly call themselves communalists-instead of going on the defensive everytime the word is thrown out.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
119
This a very clear analysis of the fundamentalist secular mentality. The Indian public is educated enough to distinguish between hypocrisy and sincerity of the politicians. The leaders like Yechuri and Karat are living in glass houses. They have no sense of shame in justifying Nandigram carnage and still have no qualms talking about ideologically fighting Moditva.
Nandan
Kochi, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
118
"These self-styled secularists would not address their sermons of secularism to the Islamic countries, where for a Muslim to convert a non-Muslim into Islam is an act blessed by Allah, but for a non-Muslim to convert a Muslim into his religion is a crime calling for the death penalty.

For them, secularism is a virtue which a Hindu should practise towards others, but not others towards him.

It is Modi's rejection of this hypocrisy of the self-styled secularists, which makes him stand apart as a Hindu leader with a difference in the eyes of his admirers."

"The growing legion of Modi's admirers in the Hindu community all over the world are ... no longer prepared to be defensive in proclaiming their Hindu idenity, in asserting their rights as Hindus.

They are secular in the genuine sense of the word, but for them secularism does not mean developing a guilt complex about being a Hindu and all the time conceding the rights of others. They do not accept the argument that a Hindu, who asserts his rights, ceases to be a secularist."

Surely, no one can really have an argument with that ... not even Faruki ... or can he ?
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
117
Vijay A.,

>> Surely, no one can really have an argument with that ... not even Faruki ... or can he ?

I have already put in my two cents worth. I am well aware of the "Black Pride" movement in America during the 1960's. Such movements behoove subjugated minorities, not an 82% majority which should proudly and magnanimously espouse secularism.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
116
" not an 82% majority which should proudly and magnanimously espouse secularism. "

No actually they need not. Secularism, either applies to everyone or it does not. And it is high time the Indian secularism is given an indecent burial.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
115
Ganesan,

>> Secularism, either applies to everyone or it does not.

Secularism applies to everyone. The need to boost one's identity as a compensatory measure should be felt only by the downtrodden minority.

>> it is high time the Indian secularism is given an indecent burial.

While enjoying the benefits of American secularism, why do you wish the opposite on Indians? You would of course say that as practised by the Congress it is "pseudosecularisam". Much of the fault lies with the BJP, because its agenda drove the minorities in the embrace of the Congress, and in order to cope with the enlarging Hindu vote bank, Congress had to engender some programs that look like appeasement. We should be repairing our secularism instead of chucking it.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
114
Once you get beyond the illusion of reality that the media has created and talk to ordinary Indians in Gujarat, Maharashtra or UP, most people seem to believe in something simple beyond a shadow of doubt: Muslims burnt alive Hindu pilgrims at the Godhra train station and so Hindus retaliated decisively "once for all".

Obviously, the Muslim community hasn't started any more riots, nor has the Hindu community in India. So that is GOOD.

From Modi to Sir Noon in England, people do want to move beyond, forget and forgive, and build a new India focused on development without corruption. Clearly, Modi appealed a lot more than an Italian-widow run campaign that didn't even respect Gujaratis enough to have a CM designate.

One can of course take the grievances back to babri masjid, aurangzeb, etc. etc. -- but then it all, including the forcibly converted 10-15% hindus that still pledge allegiance to extra-Indian forces, boils down to blood thirsty Islamic invaders of yore, doesn't it?

Obviously, Hindus want to advance in the 21st century as a modern and quite liberal nation (there is nothing like a bollywood or kama sutra in the non-western world) and they want to do it without the illiterate Muslims resorting to violence.

Muslims (minorities) need to fall in line, there is no glass ceiling or call to renounce freedom of worship for a Kalam, Sania, Irfan, Manmohan or even a Sonia.

Modi has clearly shown the way. That is Raman's analysis I think though one may quibble with the choice of words.
Viveka P
San Francisco, United States
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
113
"All the kind of epithets, the like of which till now used to come easily out of the mouth of President George Bush of the US and the pens of his Neo Conservative supporters."

Exactly when did Bush use these words against anyone??????????? He called Saddam evil. What was he then-a Saint?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
112
BTW, Raman is one of those hypocrites who advocates India cosy up with Iran-on the reasoning that it would be endearing to Indian muslims. It is a case of black pot calling a black pot black.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
111
> While enjoying the benefits of American
> secularism, why do you wish the opposite
> on Indians?

Give it a break! While I'm proud to be an American and do support Obama wholehearedly, do open your eyes to the stark reality:

America is still not ready to elect a non-Christian President and is struggling with the concept of a first female and black president!!

There was never a religious or gender slur ("osama, obama and chelse'a mama") in India against Manmohan, Sonia, Kalam, Fakruddin or Narayanan, was there? Has an element of the US religious right stepped up in support of "Hussein" Obama like the RSS did for Kalam??

Wake up to reality. Admit ground facts even if it comes grudgingly.
Viveka P
San Francisco, United States
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
110
>> Exactly when did Bush use these words against anyone?

Axis of evil, to start with, but for more go to his friends, the "swift boat" people!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
109
Viveka,

>> There was never a religious or gender slur ("osama, obama and chelse'a mama") in India against Manmohan, Sonia, Kalam, Fakruddin or Narayanan, was there?

Follow the thread. My comment was not about India today. It was directed at a poster who had said, "It is high time the Indian secularism is given an indecent burial."
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
108
I could,nt agree with you more, Raman ji. The only point I am making is that for patriotic secular Muslims, why should there be a sense of alienation.
Of course, on matters of national integrity, opposition to terrorism, pride in one,s faith,culture and language, Modi is 100% right.
Modi should include all nationalists in his boat irrespective of faith because we too are as Indian as you and we too dislike the terrorists and vote for strong measures against them as much as you do and love India as much as you do.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
107
It is interesting that extremism always takes hold by playing to the worst fears of a community. The growth of Hindu fundamentalism in our country is built on apparent atrocities committed by outside Muslim and Christian invasions centuries ago. Hindus have been led to believe that the time has come to make the current Muslims and Christians pay for those "atrocities." The fact that such an illogical pretext has become the rallying cry recently reveals the extent to which the Hindu majority has been brainwashed.

You just have to go to Indian messageboards all over the internet to realize the extent of anti-Muslim sentiment in India.

No doubt Indian Muslims have a lot of issues that they need to sort out within their own community. But tell me, why would Indian Muslims feel patriotic when Hindus are baying for their blood?
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
106
"But tell me, why would Indian Muslims feel patriotic when Hindus are baying for their blood?"

Ask Bandukwala.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
105
Chaitanya,

>> Ask Bandukwala.

This is what he said about the Gujarat riots, "It would have been very good if the Hindu leadership had felt remorse and sorrow. But in the
last two-and-a-half years, not only has the political leadership not expressed remorse, but even the intellectual leadership, religious figures, business leaders... none of them have felt sorry. The standard comment remains: 'Muslims deserved it'. If they just said the simple word 'Sorry', we'd come forward and forgive, and the process of reconciliation would begin'.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
104
I have seen Bandukwala asking Indian muslim elite to get rid of rhetoric about palestine, umma and concentrate on the well being of muslims in India. This changed stance was made possible only by whatever happened in Gujarat. People like him are right to an extent about asking remorse from Modi, but they can gain it only when they complete the task of integrating muslims with rest of India which is in their hands. I am sure his appeal fell into deaf ears and Indian muslim elite will be in for big surprises. Modi will definetely be PM of India one day. I am have less doubts about it.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
103

No doubt Indian Muslims have a lot of issues that they need to sort out within their own community


And their are other issues which other communities need to sort out with them, ethnic cleansing in Kashmir, terror attacks by SIMI etc.
B Bhattacharyya
Morrisville, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
102
"If they just said the simple word 'Sorry', we'd come forward and forgive, and the process of reconciliation would begin'."

Not saying sorry will be applicable until suspicion on muslims exists. Muslims have rarely have been magnanimous in their history. How many muslims repent for the destruction of temples and killings of hindus that were carried out? I never came across one. This attitude worries and needs to be corrected.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
101
@ Bhattacharya,

Don't you agree that alienating indian muslims only strengthens the the fundamentalist organizations? If your objective is to stop these organizations, you need to have a two pronged approach (1) be tough on them (2) be kind to the rest of the community who have done nothing wrong, want to play a role in their communities and want to be treated with honor.

the sad part is that it is only innocent muslims and innocent hindus who suffer because of hindu fundamentalism and muslim extremists.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
100
>> This attitude worries and needs to be corrected.

You are the one who suggested that we ask Bandukwala. Recently he has added, "I have already condoned those responsible for the attack on me and my family members. But now I want the Muslim community to forgive those involved in the riots. I appeal to my Muslim brethren to forgive those responsible for the heinous crimes including those in various stages of trial."

I do not necessarily share all his views, but I am quoting them here because you have shown interest in his views.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
99
@Chaitanya,

You mention "integrating Muslims within India."

The important thing is to understand what India we are talking about. Are we talking about an India governed by fundamentalists like Modi who will wink over massacres of Muslims? Or are we talking about an India that respects and treats muslims and hindus equally?

You see, you cannot ask the entire Muslim community to integrate without discarding the hindu fundamentalists.

If you think that you can integrate muslims by controlling them through force, you are terribly mistaken. Hindu extremists are making the grave mistake that they can essentially force muslims into patriotism through fear. That will only backfire.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
98
Recently he has added, "I have already condoned those responsible for the attack on me and my family members. But now I want the Muslim community to forgive those involved in the riots. I appeal to my Muslim brethren to forgive those responsible for the heinous crimes including those in various stages of trial."

Why can't Ghulam Faruki share this view? What's wrong with forgiving? Bandukwala will ofcourse be treated like Abdul Kalam, Sania Mirza for having such views. He is in good company and will be respected for that.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
97
Anand,

"Are we talking about an India governed by fundamentalists like Modi who will wink over massacres of Muslims? Or are we talking about an India that respects and treats muslims and hindus equally?"

We are talking about a India where Muslims does not seem to pay attention to Gandhian words.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
96
Anand,

"you cannot ask the entire Muslim community to integrate without discarding the hindu fundamentalists."

The question is, is Hindu fundamentalism feeding on religious sanctioned views prescribed in holy texts?
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
95
@Chaitanya,

Don't you find it ironic that Gandhi was killed by a Hindu extremist? Why is it that Nathuram Godse is not considered a villain among the Hindu fundamentalist circles? They infact hail Godse, calling Gandhi a muslim apologist.

And how can you make such random generalizations about 140+ million people? ("do not seem to pay attention to Gandhian words.")

What is so holy about Gandhi words anyways? Are you saying that following Gandhian words is the sign of "integration"? If that is the case, Hindu fundamentalists who idolize Godse and the Hindus who vote for them in the millions each election are the ones who have failed to "integrate."
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
94
Anand,

"Hindu extremists are making the grave mistake that they can essentially force muslims into patriotism through fear. That will only backfire."

True, it will backfire to an extent. But Hindu fundamentalists will be discarded by rest of Hindus in due course of time. They don't serve any purpose when there is no fundamentalism from others in India.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
93
Anand,

"What is so holy about Gandhi words anyways?"

Forgive me for mistaking that you do follow Gandhian ideology. It seemed that way from your earlier posts.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
92
Anand,

"And how can you make such random generalizations about 140+ million people?"

It's not random. The generalization is very much applicable.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
91
@ Chaitanya,

"The question is, is Hindu fundamentalism feeding on religious sanctioned views prescribed in holy texts?"

Ahh .. now I get it. Your really peeve is against Islam, not muslims. Why are you so obsessed with the holy texts? Let them be. You are free to read whatever you want at home.

The bottomline is how people ACT, not what they READ.

A muslim who infringes on the freedoms of another muslim or another Hindu is a criminal, no matter what his texts say. Ditto for Hindus. End of story.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
90
Anand,

"The bottomline is how people ACT, not what they READ."

Most of the Hindus are tolerant as their religion preaches equal respect for all religions. Islam needs to go through revision if Muslims are to take that view and it will not happen in this century at least.





chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
89
@ Chaitanya,

" True, it will backfire to an extent. But Hindu fundamentalists will be discarded by rest of Hindus in due course of time. They don't serve any purpose when there is no fundamentalism from others in India."

So you agree that Hindu fundamentalism needs to be eradicated. (we have common ground there) Just like Muslim fundamentalism. (i agree on this one to)

Your problem is that pseudosecularists only point out Hindu fundamentalism. By the same token Hindu fundamentalists only point to extremist muslims.

But you see the problem is that Hindus have let the fundamentalists gain too much power! Far from being a fringe element Hindu fundamentalism has become mainstream, accepted and been voted to power.

Even in a country as fundamentalistic as Pakistan, the fringe islamic parties only get 10% of the vote.

The US is learning today that you cannot create one monster to kill another. They supported the Taliban to fight Russia. They supported Saddam to fight Iran. Both backfired. Hindus who support extremists like the VHP, Bajrang Dal etc. will eventually realize that they have created one monster (hindu fundamentalism) in order to kill another monster (muslim fundamentalism). The question is : are we going to realize it too late?!
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
88
Chaitanya,

"Forgive me for mistaking that you do follow Gandhian ideology. It seemed that way from your earlier posts."

Gandhi's India is very different from the India of today. We cannot take Gandhi's ideology and apply it inconsiderately. I don't accept any ideology, Gandhian or otherwise.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
87
Anand,

So what is your prescription to integrate muslims with rest of India? Be realistic.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
86
Saying that Hindu fundamentalists are powerful in India than Muslim fundamentalists are in Pakistan is absolutely not true. You don't find Hindu fundamentalists creating havoc in the interiors of Pakistan.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
85
"Most of the Hindus are tolerant as their religion preaches equal respect for all religions. Islam needs to go through revision if Muslims are to take that view and it will not happen in this century at least."

I disagree with this. If Hindus were so tolerant, how did we allow the caste system to oppress our own fellow Hindus into dire poverty for thousands of years? How is it that during the partition BOTH Muslims and Hindus (and Sikhs) got killed? If Hindus were so tolerant, how is it that we hear about dalits getting lynched everyday?

If Hindus were so tolerant how is it that hundreds of innocent Sikhs were slaughtered because 2 members of their community killed Indira! Did Hindus go around killing other Hindus when Nathuram Godse killed Gandhi? Don't you see the holes in your pet beliefs?

Muslims will not reform Islam. It is as simple as that. You know that as much as I do. Just like Hindus will not stop believing in multiple gods or follow abrahamic traditions. It is stupid to let that become a condition for peace between the communities. India is not a muslim country and hindus are not required to follow muslim law (thank goodness for that!). So why do YOU care what Islam teaches?
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
84
Anand,

"Muslims will not reform Islam. It is as simple as that."

So your arguement about treating everyone with same rule doesn't apply. If Muslims don't change how can you expect others to be good to them? India has a muslim population and others will have to take precautions. It's fine to speak in an ideal manner from USA, but we are here living in India facing all the newsense.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
83
Anand,

"If Hindus were so tolerant, how did we allow the caste system to oppress our own fellow Hindus into dire poverty for thousands of years?"

The caste system will be eradicated in due course of time and so will be most of the others ills in Hinduism. There have been lot of improvements in the past two centuries. You don't find Modi asking others to practice sati, dowry, caste etc. On the other hand, people like him are more vocal against these practices than Hindus in congress or other regional parties.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
82
Chaitanya,

"So what is your prescription to integrate muslims with rest of India? Be realistic."

You are posing the wrong question. You only see one side of the problem and conveniently ignore the other side despite OBVIOUS facts that show you otherwise.

Since you asked the question, I'll answer anyways Here's what I think:

1) Muslims and all other minorities must be made to feel safe ... and not fear uncontrolled retribution of the kind that followed Godhra/1984/Babri etc. The extremist view that it is ok to kill innocent minorities because someone in their community committed a grave crime is pathetic.
2) Muslims must learn the value of education and Hindus must discard open discrimination against Muslims (documented) in jobs, housing etc.
3) Muslims must openly speak out against the extremist elements in their community. They suffer even more than Hindus because of these extremists. Plus you cannot expect to be treated well when your fellow muslims are blowing up trains etc.
4) Hindus should realize that they are making a TERRIBLE mistake by creating and feeding the hindu fundamentalist monster.
5) Hindus should STOP associating indian muslims with PAKISTAN.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
81
Anand,

"Hindus should STOP associating indian muslims with PAKISTAN."

I agree. As long as Muslims of India are committed to India as much as Hindus. When they show small hints of favouring Pakistan, problems will persist.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
80
"So your arguement about treating everyone with same rule doesn't apply. If Muslims don't change how can you expect others to be good to them? India has a muslim population and others will have to take precautions. It's fine to speak in an ideal manner from USA, but we are here living in India facing all the newsense."

Hah! You raise the NRI card. How do you know how long I will live in the USA? Do you know when I'm planning to return to India? You are not privy to my future plans so please stop making assumptions.

What do you mean by "treating others the same"? Are you saying Muslims aren't treating others the same? What about upper caste Hindus who don't even let dalits enter their houses?

Brother, you clearly have a terrible bias against Muslims. I'm not here to rectify them. Nor am I here to rectify militant Muslims.

All I know is that if the majority of Hindus start thinking like you, we will never have communal harmony in India.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
79
Anand,

"What about upper caste Hindus who don't even let dalits enter their houses?"

What about ashrafs treating arzals in a terrible manner? You have really gone off the tangent here. We are talking about problems between Hindus and Muslims.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
78
Vinod,

What particular disinformation have I been spreading? Care to elaborate? (don't give me general answers ... please be specific) I'll be happy to admit if you find a fact-based flaw in my statements.

I'm not here to apologize for extremist muslims buddy. THey have their own problems to deal with.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
77
Chaitanya,

"I agree. As long as Muslims of India are committed to India as much as Hindus. When they show small hints of favouring Pakistan, problems will persist."

Don't you see the fundamental flaw in your views? How are we to judge who is more patriotic? By making Hindus and Muslims take periodic exams on patriotism?

It is natural that indian muslims and pakistanis feel some sense of brotherhood because of their religion. It is the same reason why Tamils in India feel for their Tamil brothers in Sri Lanka (and sometimes even support extremist organiztaions like LTTE). You cannot force indian muslims to stop considering pakistanis their muslim brothers.

The question is whether they support Pakistan or India during times of war. If they do, then they are being treacherous.

Do you think England and Australia etc should deport all the Indians and Hindus who show up in cricket matches and wave Indian flags? How "integrated" would you call them?
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
76
Anand,

"You cannot force indian muslims to stop considering pakistanis their muslim brothers."

This association between both of them causes frequent bombing in India, the latest in the cities of UP. What is bad for India, must be discarded. Hindus need not pay a price for their brotherhood.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
75
Vinod,

"
Its the Muslims that should have felt remorse and sorrow as the genesis of trouble in Gujarat lies on Godhra carnage which was thier well planned targeted attack on the Hindus.Why no Muslim elite or illiterate speaks on Godhra and only on Gujarat.
Those who are responsible for the entire incidents should apologies to the country and say sorry in the first place.Gujarat riot is being projected as if it was the first and would be the last communal riot and some one has to be made a scape goat and then hang him.'Jaise Karni waise Bharni'Law of the nature."

You are probably also going to say that the Sikhs were responsible for the 1984 riots because they are the ones who started it with the Bhindranwale incident and the Indira Gandhi massacre.

Can you imagine what your life would be like if the you and your family have to pay for actions committed by a fellow Hindu? Can you imagine what fear you would have if a Hindu blowing up a mosque in Hyderabad causes your muslim neighbors to come and burn down your house, rape your family members and chop you down?
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
74
Chaitanya,

"This association between both of them causes frequent bombing in India, the latest in the cities of UP. What is bad for India, must be discarded. Hindus need not pay a price for their brotherhood."

Care to explain what you mean by "bad for India, must be discarded."

Who are you calling bad for India?
Who are you saying should be discarded?
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
73
Anand,

"Can you imagine what fear you would have if a Hindu blowing up a mosque in Hyderabad"

Hindus need not do that. Muslims are the ones who bombed people near Macca Masjid. Let's hope they don't blow the Masjid itself next, as Muslims do in many countries.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
72
Anand,

"Who are you calling bad for India?"

Indian muslims, if they practice their religion without any association or sense of brotherhood for Pakistani Muslims, it will be easier to integrate them with the rest of Indians.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
71
Chaitanya,

Thats what happened in Gujarat and in Delhi in 1984. Innocent Muslims were killed because muslim extremists set fire to the Godhra train. Innocent sikhs were butchered because two militants killed Indira Gandhi.

We seem to believe in making everyone in the community pay for the sins of a few. What a wonderfully tolerant attitude!
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
70
Pakistan and Bangladesh as long as exist, they will continue to attempt making Indian muslims feel different from rest of India. That causes problems for rest of Indians.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
69
Anand,

"We seem to believe in making everyone in the community pay for the sins of a few."

There cannot be an explanation for it that you will not deem as perverted. But it is effective. That is what i think.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
68
Chaitanya,

"Indian muslims, if they practice their religion without any association or sense of brotherhood for Pakistani Muslims, it will be easier to integrate them with the rest of Indians."

Sorry brother. You are raising a non-issue to support your unfounded intolerance of muslims. People like you will always be suspicious of muslims unless they are like abdul kalam and sania mirza. Not everyone can achieve what they have achieved.

Plus it is idiotic to ask muslims to stop feeling a sense of brotherhood for their muslim brothers. It is part of their faith to look at other muslims as their own brothers. It doesn't make them traitors or ghaddars, like people like you would have. Just like hindus living in britain/australia should not be considered traitors for waving Indian flags, eating Indian food 24/7, going to temples and support Indian teams when they play against their home country.

Western countries don't discriminate against Indians even though they openly support their "homeland." They understand that certain cultural and religious ties CANNOT be broken through force.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
67
Chaitanya,

" Pakistan and Bangladesh as long as exist, they will continue to attempt making Indian muslims feel different from rest of India. That causes problems for rest of Indians."

Oh! So as long as Pakistan and Bangladesh exist, and indian muslims exist ... everyone else in INdia will be in trouble?

Sorry buddy. I thought I was talking to someone who was sane. You are obviously too bigoted to make sense.

Cheers.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
66
Anand,

The brotherhood sometimes leads to extreme problems and in other cases it doesn't where it can be tolerated. It's a relative phenomena and needs to be treated that way. I don't think Hindus in England or Australia will cause problems in the nations they live because Indians in India don't have any pathological hatred for the people in those nations.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
65
Anand,

"So as long as Pakistan and Bangladesh exist, and indian muslims exist ... everyone else in INdia will be in trouble?"

I did not mean it that way. What i meant was, Brotherhood causes trouble.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
64
Chaitanya,

"The brotherhood sometimes leads to extreme problems and in other cases it doesn't where it can be tolerated. It's a relative phenomena and needs to be treated that way. I don't think Hindus in England or Australia will cause problems in the nations they live because Indians in India don't have any pathological hatred for the people in those nations."

Brother, you are not willing to accept the fact that indian muslims will continue to consider other muslims their brothers, no matter what you or I say. It is part of their faith and you have no right to force them to think one way or the other.

You are confusing that sense of muslim brotherhood with lack of patriotism.

I would recommend that you talk to some muslim brothers living in Bangalore to try to understand their perspective. Ask them whether they can be patriotic despite their sense of brotherhood. Maybe Ghulam Faruki and Azeem Taqi (frequent posters on this site) can also express heir views on this.

Also talk to muslims in the indian army who fought valiantly for our country against our enemies.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
63
Anand,

"You are confusing that sense of muslim brotherhood with lack of patriotism."

The muslim brotherhood feeling of Indian muslims cannot be compared to those between Hindus in West and Hindus in India. The brotherhood feeling does lead to differences in Hindus and Muslims in India. When the Pakistani Muslims hate Hindus so much, there is no virtue in Indian muslims trying to identify with them. I hope this is not difficult to understand for you.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
62
Chaitanya,

"The muslim brotherhood feeling of Indian muslims cannot be compared to those between Hindus in West and Hindus in India. The brotherhood feeling does lead to differences in Hindus and Muslims in India. When the Pakistani Muslims hate Hindus so much, there is no virtue in Indian muslims trying to identify with them. I hope this is not difficult to understand for you."

Once again you are making faulty comparisons.

First of all, not all Pakistanis hate Hindus. There are many many Pakistanis who respect Hindus genuinely. Read about how hospitable Pakistanis were when Indians visited Pakistan. Read accounts of Pakistanis protecting hindus during the partition riots.

Secondly, you're making the assumption that Indian muslims feel brotherhood with those pakistanis who hate hindus. How do you know that?

Thirdly, you are apparently incapable of being friendly with those who don't agree with you on everything. THat is not how everyone is buddy. I can be friends with those who think my religion is stupid but respect my desire to follow it and don't keep telling me that I am an idiot. I can also be friends with people even though I disagree with them on many things. It is totally natural and normal for indian muslims to feel brotherly toward pakistani muslims and yet NOT agree with them on many issues.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
61
Chaitanya,

>> Why can't Ghulam Faruki share this view? What's wrong with forgiving? Bandukwala will ofcourse be treated like Abdul Kalam, Sania Mirza for having such views. He is in good company and will be respected for that.

Although I do not share all of Bandukwala's views, I am probably more like him than you. Your judgements on people are often way off the mark.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
60
Anand,

"It is totally natural and normal for indian muslims to feel brotherly toward pakistani muslims and yet NOT agree with them on many issues."

Indian muslims don't seem to exhibity such maturity. When they do, your arguement is valid.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
59
I meant 15%, not 20%.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
58
Anand,

"Read accounts of Pakistanis protecting hindus during the partition riots."

One wonders how hindu population in Pakistan has dropped from 20% to 2% of total Pakistan's population from 1948 to 2007.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
57
Anand,

"First of all, not all Pakistanis hate Hindus."

I agree. Most of them do.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
56
Anand,

"you're making the assumption that Indian muslims feel brotherhood with those pakistanis who hate hindus. How do you know that? "

You think everything is rosy with Indian muslims, don't you? I was not making an assumption. They are facts.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
55
"One wonders how hindu population in Pakistan has dropped from 20% to 2% of total Pakistan's population from 1948 to 2007."

Once again a faulty line of reasoning. Majority of the Hindus in Pakistan pre-partition lived close to the border and preferred to move to India and were able to do so. Remember that the exodus was equal on both sides of the border.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
54
Chaitanya,

You say most Pakistanis hate Hindus.

How many Pakistanis have you actually met/spoken to? Have you ever been to Pakistan? I'd love to hear your answer.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
53
>> Much of the fault lies with the BJP, because its agenda drove the minorities in the embrace of the Congress, and in order to cope with the enlarging Hindu vote bank, Congress had to engender some programs that look like appeasement.

Ah, the age old chicken and the egg riddle.

So, the Congress introduced separate personal laws, Haj subsidy, facilities for setting and running educational institutes etc. to cope with enlarging Hindu vote banks triggered by BJP policies? It all makes sense now, even though BJP didn't even exist at that time, and was not a significant political force till late 80s.

Next time there is an earthquake in India, I am sure you shall find some way to blame the BJP.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
52
"
You think everything is rosy with Indian muslims, don't you? I was not making an assumption. They are facts. "

I do NOT think that everything is rosy with Indian muslims. Your problem is that you beleive that indian muslims are fundamentally incapable of being patriotic indians. That sir, is not their problem, but yours because your clearly bigoted views.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
51
Chaitanya,

>> The brotherhood sometimes leads to extreme problems and in other cases it doesn't where it can be tolerated.

I do not know what extreme problems have been caused by the loose informal fellow feeling that Muslims have for each other. Similar fellow feelings are felt by Hindus for their co-religionists in Malaysia, Bangladesh and Pakistan. Exaggerating the importances of such largely harmless phenomena is usually done in order to perpetuate the canard that Muslims are alien and non-integrable.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
50
Anand,

"How many Pakistanis have you actually met/spoken to? Have you ever been to Pakistan? I'd love to hear your answer."

I have not been there or met any. But read this..

Pakistani Textbooks: Politics of Prejudice


http://www.thesouthasia...xtbooks_politics_o.html
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
49
Chaitanya,

Reading a few articles gets you nowehere buddy. Before passing judgement on an entire country of 150 million people atleast make a few attempts to initiate HUMAN contact.

There are articles that demonize every country in the world, including ours.

Please be mature in your thinking.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
48
"I do not know what extreme problems have been caused by the loose informal fellow feeling that Muslims have for each other."

Not much except the death of more than 70,000 people in India since 1991 due to bombings inspired by movements in Pakistan.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
47
These are extracts from government-sponsored textbooks approved by the National Curriculum Wing (NCW) of the Federal Ministry of Education:

General:

'Who is a Hindu? A Hindu is an enemy of Islam'

'Before the Arab conquest, people were fed up with the teachings of Buddhists & Hindus. Before the arrival of Islam in India, people lived in untold misery'.

'European nations have been working during the past three centuries to subjugate countries of the Muslim world'.

Class IV Text Book:

* The Muslims of Pakistan provided all facilities to the Hindus and the Sikhs who left for India in 1947. But the Hindus and the Sikhs looted the Muslims in India with both hands and they attacked their caravans, buses and railway trains. Therefore, about one million Muslims were martyred on their way to Pakistan.

* The Hindus treated the ancient population of the Indus Valley very badly. They set fire to their houses and butchered them.

* The religion of Hindus did not teach them good things, Hindus did not respect women.

Class V Text Book:

* After the war of 1965, India with the help of Hindus living in East Pakistan, incited the people of East Pakistan against West Pakistanis. In December 1971, the Indians themselves also attacked East Pakistan. As a result East Pakistan separated from us. We should all receive military training so that we can foil the designs of the enemy in the future. (By implication, not even a single Muslim in East Pakistan, including Mujibur Rehman, fought against West Pakistanis in 1971)

* The Hindu has always been an enemy of Islam.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
46
Class VIII Text Book:

* During the Khilafat Movement Hindus and Muslims were completely united and like brothers and they started to cooperate and live in peaceful togetherness. But as soon as this movement ended, Hindu hatred of the Muslim re-emerged.

* Before Islam people lived in untold misery all over the world.

Class IX Text Book:

* The Hindus and the Muslims could not amalgamate each other's way of life to become one nation.The main reason for this difference of cultures, civilisation and outlook was the religion of Islam which cannot be assimilated in any other system as it is based on the principle of...oneness of God....On the other hand, Hinduism is based on the concept of multiple Gods....There lies the difference between the Hindu and Muslim way of thinking.

* In connivance with the (British) government the Hindus started communal riots and caused loss of life and property. At the time of prayers the Hindus tortured the Muslims by playing music in front of the mosques. Before the commencement of classes the students saluted the portrait of Mahatma Gandhi and Muslim students were also forced to do so.

* Muslims promoted equality and social justice as against the division created by the Hindu caste system.

Class X Text Book:

* The ideology of Pakistan...was a revolt against the prevailing system of India in which Hindu nationalism was imposed on the Muslims.

* Islam gives a message of peace and brotherhood.... There is no such concept in Hinduism. Moreover Islam preaches brotherhood, equality and justice.... On the other hand, the Hindu society is based on caste system which downgrades the entire mankind.

* After the establishment of Pakistan the Hindus and Sikhs created a day of doom for the Muslims in East Punjab.

* The Hindus were encouraged by the (British) government to force the Muslims to join the Congress.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
45
Class VI Text Book:

* In the middle of the city of Deebal (Sindh), there was a Hindu temple. There was a flag hoisted on top of it. The Hindus believed that as long as the flag kept flying, nobody could harm them. Mohd bin Qasim found out about this. The Muslims began to catapult stones at the temple and at the flag, ultimately making it fall to the ground. The whole city became tumultuous and the Hindus lost heart. Some Muslims clambered up the walls of the temple and forced open the door. Qasim's army entered the city and after conquering it, announced peace. The Muslims treated the vanquished so well many Hindus converted to Islam.

* Before the Arab conquest the people were fed up with the teachings of Buddhists and Hindus.

* The foundation of the Hindu setup was based on injustice and cruelty.

* The Hindus who had always been opportunists cooperated with the British.
* The Hindus used to please the goddess Kali by slaughtering people of other religions.

Class VII Text Book:

* Some Jewish tribes also lived in Arabia. They lent money to workers and peasants on high rates of interest and usurped their earnings. They held the whole society in their tight grip because of the ever-increasing compound interest.

* History has no parallel to the extremely kind treatment of the Christians by the Muslims. Still the Christian kingdoms of Europe were constantly trying to gain control of Jerusalem. This was the cause of the Crusades.

* European nations have been working during the past three centuries, through conspiracies or naked aggression, to subjugate countries of the Muslim world. Hindus always desired to crush the Muslims as a nation. Several attempts were made by the Hindus to erase Muslim culture and civilisation.

* The Hindus too wished to ruin Muslim civilisation and culture by destroying Urdu which has been closely associated with the Pakistan Movement.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
44
>> So the Congress introduced separate personal laws, Haj subsidy, facilities for setting and running educational institutes etc.

These were set up by the Constituent Assembly and the Parliament without opposition. Attempts to dismantle them are equally apathetic on behalf of both the Congress and the BJP, although the rhetoric at election times is different.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
43
Anand,

When such views are sanctioned by the national cirriculum of Pakistan, to be taught to muslims from early age, it is bound to have an impact for the rest of their lives.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
42
"When such views are sanctioned by the national cirriculum of Pakistan, to be taught to muslims from early age, it is bound to have an impact for the rest of their lives."

True. Your point being?

You still haven't spoken to any Pakistanis in your entire life. You read some article and random bits of what Pakistanis are taught in some schools. And you think you know an entire country!

Great work Sherlock.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
41
Chaitanya,

>> Not much except the death of more than 70,000 people in India since 1991 due to bombings inspired by movements in Pakistan.

How Indian Muslims feel about Muslims in other countries is not the cause of these bombings.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
40
"How Indian Muslims feel about Muslims in other countries is not the cause of these bombings."

So what's the cause? There are thousands of sleeper cells across India, in almost every district. If the Muslims of India are not inspired by movements elsewhere, they wouldn't have the audacity to support such activities.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
39
I really don't give a damn about Pakistan and most of the Indians don't either. What happens there is not my concern. I was just trying to prove a point.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
38
Chaitanya,

Your points only prove your narrowminded view of things. Its true that we Indians are obsessed with Pakistan. Go to any messageboard (Even outlook). No matter what the article, posters always seem to bring in a pakistani/muslim angle.

Aanand
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
37
>> So what's the cause?

It takes a handful of fanatics to provide that kind of criminal support. A fellow feeling for one's coreligionists is universal but loose and amorphous, and for you to connect the two is very misleading.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
36
Anand,

"Your points only prove your narrowminded view of things."

I have been rational in all my postings to you. There is no narrow mindedness.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
35
"It takes a handful of fanatics to provide that kind of criminal support."

And it takes the benign support of rest of them.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
34
"I have been rational in all my postings to you. There is no narrow mindedness."

Rationality and narrow-mindedness are not mutually exclusive.

Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
33
Chaitanya,

>> And it takes the benign support of rest of them.

Because you want to hold the whole community guilty, irrespective of what the facts may be.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
32
Idli Dosa,

You are free to think that way, until Yedurappa form a government and bites you.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
31
"
Unfortunately, whatever is written about India in the curricular textbooks in Pakistan is 100% true, but the problem with stone worshippers like is that you don't have any appetite for truth.Right from the beginning your parents feed you with prejudices about Muslims and you grow up learning those and imbibing in your mind. Hence you think in the manner you think and you say what you're saying on this forum."

Thanks for enlightening us stoneworshippers with your bigoted views IdliDosa.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
30
J,

Thats right buddy. Every news channel is a mouthpiece of communists. And B Raman is the exemplar of a fair and balanced view. How very curiously childish.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
29
J,

You are a well known fanatic, extremist and bigot who preaches that all indian muslims be sent to Pakistan.

If people like you start representing Hinduism more and more Hindus will opt out of the religion. And then you can ask them to leave the county as well.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
28
>> These were set up by the Constituent Assembly and the Parliament without opposition.

You are making my point. The constitution was adopted by the constituent assembly in 1949. The Jana Sangh was not formed till 51, and had mere 3 seats in the 52 elections. Don't let this stop you from continuing to blame BJP for Congress's appeasement policies though.

Haj subsidy though, was introduced much later, and has always been controversial. Essentially, when the mode of travel was changed from sea to air, the price was not changed, and hence the subsidy. It has nothing to do with the constituent assembly or parliament.

>> Attempts to dismantle them are equally apathetic on behalf of both the Congress and the BJP, although the rhetoric at election times is different.

To begin with, you seriously need to get over the idea that if BJP is unable or reluctant to implement or change a policy, it must be secular, or is beyond criticism. It might be a political decision for BJP, just as it always was a political decision for Congress to buy minority votes.

More importantly, there has not been a BJP govt at the center so far. BJP has led an NDA govt, many of whose constituents cared as much for pseudo-secularism, as Congress and left. Moreover, constitutional changes require a 2/3 majority, which NDA never had, not to mention a lack of majority in Rajya Sabha.

If I recall correctly, NDA govt did make a modification in the Haj subsidy plan, whereby it could be availed of only once. This was nullified when the MMS govt took charge.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
27
Had posted this response sometime back, but don't see it on the pages. Apologies if it is duplicated.

>> These were set up by the Constituent Assembly and the Parliament without opposition.

Thank you for making my point for me. The constituent assemby accepted the constitution in 1949. Jana Sangh was not formed till 1951, and didn't enter parliament till the 52 elections, where it had all of 3 seats. Don't let these uncomfortable facts stop you from blaming BJP for Congress's appeasement policies though.

The case of Haj subsidy is different though. It was introduced much later. Essentially, when the mode of travel was changed from sea to air, the price was not changed, and hence the subsidy.

>> Attempts to dismantle them are equally apathetic on behalf of both the Congress and the BJP, although the rhetoric at election times is different.

First of all, you need to get it out of your mind, that if BJP failed to dismantle any policy, it must be secular, or beyond criticism. BJP might act out of political compulsions, just like Congress did by adopting these policies to create minority vote banks.

More importantly, there has not been any BJP govt at the Center so far. BJP has only led an NDA govt, lot of whose constituents cared for pseudo secularism as much as Congress and Left. Moreover, a constitution amendment requires a 2/3 majority, which the NDA never had, not to talk about Rajya Sabha where they didn't even have majority.

Finally, if I recall correctly, the NDA govt had brought a meaningful amendment to the Haj subsidy plan, whereby it could be availed of only once. This was annulled when the MMS govt came to power.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
26
Anand asks: “But tell me, why would Indian Muslims feel patriotic when Hindus are baying for their blood?”

Fair Enough. And why would (or rather should) Indian Hindus feel secular when Muslims are already shedding Hindu blood by burning trains and blowing up parks / trains / temples / markets.?
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
25
Foolish man, haj subsidy was not set up by the constituent assembly! Get your facts right, and use the time spent on this board to actually go and read .
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
24
@ GHULAM Y FARUKI
The fact remains that muslims all over the world have been made to believe that Islam is under siege. What brotherhood are you talking about? Muslims kill the people of their own brethren in the name of honour killings. The muslims have a problem with everyone...Jews(the religon of peace accomodate a small community just because they are "Khafirs"),Christians(for a crusade that happened so long ago),Hindus-Buddhists-Jains (Idol worshippers)...
A religon that preaches only Allah is good, legitimizes barbarism in the name of jihad, professees killing of Khafirs....the list wpuld go on!!!!...
Not a single Muslim in any online community has ever talked about the need for the community as a whole to interospect!!!...But alas they blame the whole world for their problems and remain in a medieval mindset!!!
Arun M
Bangalore/Mumbai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
23
Anand:>>"the problem with 'stone worshippers'"

I presume you are referring to the moslems who are right now in mecca for haj yatra; they circum-ambulate, anti-clockwise, in due asuric format, the mahaakaaleswara-linga 'stone' that has been put in one corner of the kaaba, by mohammed, after covering up the alakaacala-sree-cakra of kubera which had come down there on the melting of the north-pole icecones. Allah will surely bless them, although they worship the 'stone', dressed very much like the despised brahmins of south india!. The ways of God are indeed mysterious!
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
22
I posted the following an hour back. Instead of coming in column 1, it got into column 15, perhaps to ensure that no one notices it. I myself noticed it by accident, only. OL does have clever network managers. Congrats.

Daily Letters | 25 Dec, 2007 11:34:28PM (IST)
Anand:>>"the problem with 'stone worshippers'"

I presume you are referring to the moslems who are right now in mecca for haj yatra; they circum-ambulate, anti-clockwise, in due asuric format, the mahaakaaleswara-linga 'stone' that has been put in one corner of the kaaba, by mohammed, after covering up the alakaacala-sree-cakra of kubera which had come down there on the melting of the north-pole icecones. Allah will surely bless them, although they worship the 'stone', dressed very much like the despised brahmins of south india!. The ways of God are indeed mysterious!

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
21
Mr Raman
do accept my thanks for true commenting on Hindutwa ideology.

These Bengalis are anti-nationals, these bengali women all dattas sagarika ghosh are bastards.

It takes time to realize the truth but we have to deal with these bengalis spreading spreading seeds of communism as this their life line.

Pranva Roy is a gone case. He is married to deception, anti-indiansim and agenda to destroy indian culture.
vimal
Munich, Germany
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
20
1
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
19
The author seems to have conveniently forgotten that this is the same person who was the architect of gujarat massacre.

No amount of good deeds can wipe off his past crimes.

Also about many hindus supporting him across many forums - even laden has many supporters - in fact ladens supporters will by far outnumber Modi's.
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
18
Ramanji,

A brilliant exposition of Moditva, Hindutva and Hindu nationalism. I am yet to come across a more lucid, forthright write up on the Hindu angst (hitherto), that too in a rabidly anti-Hindu paper like OUTLOOK. A million saffron pranams to you.
B.V.SHENOY
BANGALORE, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
17
test
Nah
Mumbai, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
16
B Raman is spot on this time. He clearly understood the privailing mood in the country with respect to Modi's victory march. People are sensible enough to cut-through and see things very clearly. You cant bluff them long enough to keep them feel guilty forever!!! Sold out m0r0ns of Electronic media NDTV, CNN-IBN, TIMES NOW et el...want Hindus to feel rediculed all the time. These Bengalis and Maratis (Shameful for a place which produced Shivaji) working full time to defame this country and its identity with foreign forces just because they get Toyota's and Mercedes...
Ram
Kerela, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
15
Even God can't save India if Narendra Modi is the only workable answer to secular hypocrisy in India.
XYZ
Los Angeles, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
14
Even God can't save India if Narendra Modi is the only workable answer to secular hypocrisy in India.
XYZ
Los Angeles, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
13
Hari Om Shri Raman,
Kudos (kudus?) to you and your ilk (our numbers can be counted on one hand) who are justly steeped in the wonder that is our dharma and are unafraid to say so.

The Maino-Gandhi clan members are so out of kilter with the very basics of what it is to be free of the Semitic Book that they should be stood down from any elective office for two or three generations at least.

As for the present matriarch of the M-G tribe, well, she should do what her Italian friend and countryman OQ does, fix weapons deals and take cuts.

Jiten Bardwaj
Hertford, U.K
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
12
B. Raman,

>> The disappointment on the faces of some of the anchors was to be seen to be believed

Modi is the anti-thesis of the idea of secular democracy or secular humanism. Those with secular humanist/democratic sensibilities will naturally have a dislike for his approach. Modi hits at the very core of basic human values and that of a secular democrartic constitution.

>> They would have noticed that Modi is becoming the icon of a growing number of Hindus not only in India, but also in the Hindu diaspora spread across the world.
>> in the Hindu diaspora in the West, more young people admire Modi than grown-ups
>> for large sections of the Hindus--young and old, even more among the young than among the old-- he gave them a sense of pride in their identity as Hindus

Is it merely a coincidence that a similar phenomenon can be said about the likes of Osama Bin Laden as well? This is merely fanning and thriving of insecurities of people (rather than building positive hopes and attitudes on doing what is right)

>> They are no longer prepared to be defensive in proclaiming their Hindu idenity, in asserting their rights as Hindus

Surely, there must be a decent/legitimate way of asserting one's identity?

>> These self-styled secularists would not address their sermons of secularism to the Islamic countries, where for a Muslim to convert a non-Muslim into Islam is an act blessed by Allah, but for a non-Muslim to convert a Muslim into his religion is a crime calling for the death penalty

Islamic countries and such practices are surely taken to task all over the world. To say that no one is criticizing these practices is an attempt to build persecution complex. Would the NRI supporters of Modi support a leader like Modi as prime minister or president (in the countries they are living) who holds a Modi type ideology (as reflected in 2002 riots)? And this article is supposed to be about hypocrisy?

>> They do not accept the argument that a Hindu, who asserts his rights, ceases to be a secularist.

There are many who can be called as supporters of secular humanism or secular democracy who still assert their various religious identities including that of hinduism. It is a pity state of affairs to try to drive a wedge between secular humanism and hindu identity. At least, they should not complain about islamic extremism in that case (when they themselves are harboring similar attitudes).
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
11
B. Raman,

>> The disappointment on the faces of some of the anchors was to be seen to be believed

Modi is the anti-thesis of the idea of secular democracy or secular humanism. Those with secular humanist/democratic sensibilities will naturally have a dislike for his approach. Modi hits at the very core of basic human values and that of a secular democrartic constitution.

>> They would have noticed that Modi is becoming the icon of a growing number of Hindus not only in India, but also in the Hindu diaspora spread across the world.
>> in the Hindu diaspora in the West, more young people admire Modi than grown-ups
>> for large sections of the Hindus--young and old, even more among the young than among the old-- he gave them a sense of pride in their identity as Hindus

Is it merely a coincidence that a similar phenomenon can be said about the likes of Osama Bin Laden as well? This is merely fanning and thriving of insecurities of people (rather than building positive hopes and attitudes on doing what is right)

>> They are no longer prepared to be defensive in proclaiming their Hindu idenity, in asserting their rights as Hindus

Surely, there must be a decent/legitimate way of asserting one's identity?

>> These self-styled secularists would not address their sermons of secularism to the Islamic countries, where for a Muslim to convert a non-Muslim into Islam is an act blessed by Allah, but for a non-Muslim to convert a Muslim into his religion is a crime calling for the death penalty

Islamic countries and such practices are surely taken to task all over the world. To say that no one is criticizing these practices is an attempt to build persecution complex. Would the NRI supporters of Modi support a leader like Modi as prime minister or president (in the countries they are living) who holds a Modi type ideology (as reflected in 2002 riots)? And this article is supposed to be about hypocrisy?

>> They do not accept the argument that a Hindu, who asserts his rights, ceases to be a secularist.

There are many who can be called as supporters of secular humanism or secular democracy who still assert their various religious identities including that of hinduism. It is a pity state of affairs to try to drive a wedge between secular humanism and hindu identity. At least, they should not complain about islamic extremism in that case (when they themselves are harboring similar attitudes).

Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
10
It is a sad commentary on us Hindus, secular or not, if it takes someone like Modi, who directed and abetted the slaughter and rape of innocent children, women, and men, to give us a sense of pride or self-worth. It is sadder still that the likes of B. Raman need this boost as well. And it is incomprehensible that what should make any decent person horrified, angry and deeply ashamed is what provides a sense of honour and self-worth. I guess that this is the Kali Yuga decadence that has been mentioned in our scripture. Given the aftermath of the massacre of Sikhs and the Gujarat pogrom, it bears repeating that a tradition is being set in India of rewarding genocide with political windfalls.
Hari Chathrattil
Syracuse, USA
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
9
>> The constituent assemby accepted the constitution in 1949. Jana Sangh was not formed till 1951.

There was no such thing as 'pseudo-secularism' in those days. The Hindu Mahasabha and the Ram Rajya Parishad were more interested in opposing the Hindu Code Bill than in Muslim issues. What was considered to be fair and practicable was done. The mishandling of the Shah Bano case gave the BJP a taste of how communal issues can be exploited for political advantage.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
8
Arun M.,

>> The fact remains that muslims all over the world have been made to believe that Islam is under siege.

Lumping all geo-political problems that Muslims face e.g. Palestine. Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Kashmir, Chechnya etc into an omnibus category called "Muslims have problems with everyone" is a convinient reductionism. It is true however that Muslims need to adapt to modernism and to liberalizre their faith.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 25, 2007 12:00 AM
7
Seshadri,

>> I posted the following an hour back. Instead of coming in column 1, it got into column 15, perhaps to ensure that no one notices it.

This is happening to everyone's posts. Don't get paranoid.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 24, 2007 12:00 AM
6
Well spoken for once, Raman !!!

Eat your vile black Islamist heart out, Faruki !
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Dec 24, 2007 12:00 AM
5
Mr.Raman is climbing the Hindutva bandwagon after Modi's victory in Gujarat. Post-facto paeans are tantamount to toadying. Applause of sectarian "nationalism" generated in the preponderant majority cannot be viewed with equanimity.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 24, 2007 12:00 AM
4
Uh-oh, within six years, according to the great enlightened know it alls, Modi and Gujarat are going to set up concentration camps to exterminate millions, not just one or two thousand, of people, including non-believers, gypsies, atheists, homosexuals, the invalid and the mentally ill. And soon after that, they will embark on a campaign of global military conquest, and plunge thw world into another world war. Ooooh, I'm just shivering in my boots at these Nazi Gujaratis. Watch out, world!
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 24, 2007 12:00 AM
3
Excellent, very comprehensive article by Raman, detailing the reasons why Modi is quite liked and popular. I'm not sure if Raman also mentioned the economic factor, that under Modi, Gujarat is doing quite well. That had to weigh also on the minds of the voters.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 24, 2007 12:00 AM
2
The article was astonishing in its brazeness.

To say that Mr Modi is incorruptible and lives an austere life style might be somewhat true. To claim that there is no other politician in India who measures up to this yardstick is blatantly untrue.

I can name a few politicians who come under this category like Mr AK Antony (Raksha Mantri) and Dr Manmohan Singh (Pradhan Mantri). The difference is no one else has spent 750 crores to aggrandize thier austerity and integrity.

As for austerity...there are quite a few politicians who live austere lives and do not need image consultants to market hands bloodied by government sponsored pogroms.

I read through the article a couple of times to figure out the rights that have been denied to Hindus in India.

Other than a lecture about the 'Islamic' world where human rights are non-existent (and thank goodness it is not emulated in India), it appears to me that the only other right which the writer has been agressively pursuing is the right to proudly proclaim I am a Hindu!

No one in secular India is prevented from proclaiming their belief or pride in thier identity.

Mr Raman has gone a bit too far from ground reality in his attempt at putting a veneer on Mr Modi and his sordid role in the pogrom in Gujarat. Till Mr Modi apologizes and makes amends for the victims he will be open to criticism from human rights activists (unfortunately not the hated 'secularists').

It is not surprising Mr Raman has no reference to human rights activists who have been fighting the battle against Mr Modi (as he turns his ire on the 'secularists').

Ultimately the entire anti-terroism posture of the BJP and Modi(lesser spoken about the so called 'nationalism' the better) is a garb to selectively attack and destroy human rights (no prizes for guessing which Indian community has most to fear this extrajudicial approach)!

Mr Modi's administration as pointed out by the supreme court is not too far from what Ms Gandhi described as " Merchants of death" everyhing is tradable in this version of 'development' including 'Hindutva'



Prabhudas
Vancouver, Canada
Dec 24, 2007 12:00 AM
1
Looks like Raman’s testicles were lying dormant. Only after Modi’s win have they swollen to the size of mustard seeds. At least, they are bigger than his brain.

If self-styled secularists only had visited assorted websites, they would have noticed the harbingers of election in Gujarat, he says. Too bad Raman himself saw such clairvoyance only after the election returns came in. As for inconveniences such as whether those websites attract a sample of the Gujarat’s electorate, let’s not spoil his party.

Raman sees Hurricane Hindu building on the vortex of Modi. He opines Modi’s appeal is trans-Hindu including U.S. born Hindus because he “gave them” a sense of pride in their Hindu identity.

Once again, Hindus are victims of “self-styled secularists.” Because of an order handed down by the secularists, the Hindus complied and became defensive. For the first time in history and due to a petty politician in one corner of the country who “gives them a sense of pride,” they aren’t defensive anymore. They have begun to assert their rights “as Hindus.” Exactly what separate rights they have “as Hindus,” apart from any other citizen, his future columns await to be filled.

The secularists have to address their sermons to Islamic countries they don’t live in first. Only then, they can comment upon secularism in the country they do live in. With the sentence, “secularism is a virtue which a Hindu should practise towards others, but not others toward him,” Too bad he doesn’t say what secularism particised “towards him [Hindu]” looks like.

Raman concludes, “They [Modi Hindus or Modhus for short] are secular in the genuine sense of the word, but for them secularism does not mean developing a guilt complex about being a Hindu and all the time conceding the rights of others...” So how does Raman define secular in the “genuine sense”? No one knows. What does he mean by “all the time conceding the rights of others”? Why concede rights already guaranteed “all the time” in the Constitution to everyone? For a few days, Raman will walk funny with the weight of his new sprouted mustard seeds.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
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