illustration by Sandeep Adhwaryu
opinion
Power Defangs
Politics has blunted the edge of his ideology, making him less dangerous
Cover story
Alone, austere and in control, Narendra Modi stands for everything in Gujarat today
Saba Naqvi
Cover story
Jaitley and Modi are both solo flyers, why they have gelled since the latter's Delhi days
gujarat
Modi isn't the central figure of '02, but is better off than in '04
Smita Gupta
interview
Due to examine the complaints received from the Gujarat election campaign, the Chief Election Commissioner explained the legal position.
Outlook
Narendra Modi, everyone forgets, is one of those who, like Mulayam Singh Yadav, Laloo Prasad Yadav, H.D. Deve Gowda and Mayawati, comes from previously marginalised social groups. He belongs to the caste of oil-pressers, like most of Godhra's Muslims. One can speculate whether his role in the pogrom of 2002 had something to do with self-hatred, but I won't go into that here.

However, unlike all others in this category, Modi has not projected himself as a backward class leader.
 
 
Luckily, Modi is not as intelligent as, say, Narasimha Rao. What Rao did by not doing, he has to do by doing. the system will not allow him to get away with it.
 
 
Nor is he seen as one. Though he calls himself the leader of five crore Gujaratis, his "caste" constituency is the Gujarati middle class and his rhetoric and political style are geared to that class. Even the Muslims who support him seem to come from the same class. His language, dress and mannerisms are quintessentially modern and upper middle class, like that of the well-manicured sanyasini, Uma Bharati.

Why Modi has retooled himself as a typical, middle-class politician is obvious: he has larger, pan-Indian ambitions; he has to cut across the boundaries of local cultures, which means he cannot but flaunt capabilities and skills identified with the Indian middle class. Also, Gujarat is a small state studded with a large number of cities—at least 50 of them. It therefore has an urban middle class that matters much more than in other states. Lastly, Modi began his life as an RSS pracharak and the RSS is typically a product of middle-class India: it involves a rejection of both folk Hinduism and ordinary Hindus. Built on Hindu self-hatred and hostility to what is seen as the disorganised, folksy, anarchic, non-rational style of Hinduism that pervades village India, the RSS and the Hindu nationalists might make compromises with it for the sake of electoral politics, but like their alter-ego, the Leninist Left, they presume that an enlightened middle class of partly deracinated Hindus will act as the vanguard and lead the Hindus towards an European-style nation-state. It is not an accident that the founding fathers of the RSS were mostly non-believers or weak believers. And even the present leadership of the RSS is not known for its love of Hinduism as it is; they want to retool Hinduism and make it more like Islam and Christianity.

I first met Narendra Modi over 15 years ago when I interviewed him. As a clinical psychologist, my interview went into his inner life, but it would be unprofessional to go into that. However, I can say this much: I found him dangerous. He was just getting into politics then and as a young RSS pracharak, his ideology, especially his almost paranoid perception of Muslims, was neat, earnest and frightening. I fear the earnestness of ideologues, and the incorruptible among them are the worst. It's a disastrous combination: incorruptibility and earnestness. They will self-destruct rather than compromise on ideology.

Modi's earnestness, thankfully, has declined; he has become more instrumental. He is at once less threatening and more dangerous. He can now go farther in politics with his personality and psychological resources, exactly as the bjp over the years has become a less ideological party and therefore politically more skilful and accommodative.

I do not consider Modi as dangerous and as invulnerable now as I did when I met him first. Now, Modi's ambitions and his political aspirations protect us. He has changed in other ways as well—he is more polished, even more determined, but without that touch of desperation you see in many politicians of this kind. Modi is quite unlike these other politicians, whose anxiety to stick to power is as obvious as their blatant attempts to make money or to put their own people in decision-making positions. He is far more sophisticated. Politics has blunted the edge of his ideological sharpness. His rhetoric is more calculative, or instrumental, than it was then. To that extent, democracy has tamed him and exposed him to other possibilities.

Many people will not like what I'm saying, but I'm inclined to believe that the Gujarat riots were not indiscriminate and mindless. Instrumentality was an important part of it. If you see the geography of the riots, you will see that the riots did not take place in Saurashtra and south Gujarat, where the bjp was strong. Modi's love of Hinduism extended from north Gujarat to central Gujarat, the two areas where the Congress was stronger and he could snatch the initiative from the Congress.

Modi's attitude to Muslims is understandable. His ideology, perhaps like all ideologies, has to set up a fall guy or anti-self. And that anti-self defines him. But politics has changed the nature of his commitment; he may be now more willing to sell out his party and his ideology for the sake of power. The encounter of a politician with politics is different from that of a political analyst. Power and politics have changed him. The older Modi is not dead but there's more calculation in what he says: he says these things because his constituency loves it. Gujarati middle class is at the moment having a love affair with hatred and paranoia. Like Bengali babus and Kashmiri Muslims, they were traditionally classified as non-martial by the British Empire and they smarted under that classification. Even when they themselves do not embrace violence, they vicariously enjoy it. They enjoy it even when the violence is directed towards them. In Surat city there's now a statue of Shivaji, who sacked Surat more than once! Modi has tapped into that self-hatred of the Gujarati middle class and the sanction for violence that flows from it.

As the only upwardly mobile caste leader whose constituency is not his caste, Modi knows how to keep the middle class captive—through rhetoric, fear and anxiety. He knows only too well that his success lies in keeping that fear and anxiety alive. Thanks to the dramatic way he broke the threshold of violence in a society where the tolerance of violence has always been low, Gujaratis have begun to feel heroic. Modi has given them the vicarious pleasure of participating in violence, even while maintaining a certain distance from it. That is why the Gujarati middle class has become so hostile to any criticism of the present political culture of Gujarat. In many ways it's a sick culture. K.P.S. Gill, no stranger to violence himself, once said there was no expiation, no guilt or shame in Gujarat about the violence in 2002.

But relying on a middle-class constituency makes Modi a more anxious politician than most, because the fidelity of this class is notoriously unstable. He has to take more risks, be more theatrical and perpetually mediagenic. That is probably why some call Modi a megalomaniac. I wouldn't, for what he's doing is what Mayawati or Laloo Prasad have sometimes done—they have presumed total immunity. The political culture of immunity has been built carefully over the last few decades by some of the so-called stalwarts of our political system. They believe they have to be barefaced about the way they flout laws and norms, because they do not have the sophisticated networks that other politicians have with industrialists and the press. They have to arm-twist the prospective financiers, openly make money out of the policy decisions they take, sell postings and transfers, and treat the media with disdain. So they look megalomaniac.

The swagger extends to intra-party affairs as well. Modi acts as if he's the leader of a regional party. He knows that the political culture of Gujarat is distinctive and that he can challenge the party and get away with it. He may change his style if he loses this election, but at the moment he's doing what some other politicians are doing, probably on a larger scale because he thinks he has Gujarat sewn up. Of course, he has a streak of narcissism, but which politician doesn't?

His present incarnation, as part of the political mainstream, makes him less fearsome but more dangerous. He can go far even if he loses this election. In five years, he has a fair chance of making it to the top of his party at the national level. No pan-Indian party could have picked him as a leader in his earlier incarnation, as a clone of someone like Bal Thackeray or Praveen Togadia. Thackeray and Togadia are captive to their rhetoric and leave themselves no space for manoeuvre. Modi has cleverly created some space for himself in recent years.

All of us have a bit of Modi in us, but we don't acknowledge it. The ruthlessness you see in him is the ruthlessness of an ideology that believes it has a superior understanding of history. Anyone who believes in the ideology believes he has the right to intervene in history, even if it costs the lives of millions. It's this self-righteousness that is frightening. This dependence on killer ideologies is a feature of our modern times.

Fortunately, Modi is not a highly intelligent politician, like say P.V. Narasimha Rao. The highly intelligent in Indian politics always pretend that they are less intelligent and less colourful than they actually are. Modi is more intuitive than intelligent, with a sense of survival that comes from his background. It is the instinct for survival of a person coming from a social sector that has never tasted power. There is always a touch of desperation about their attempts to hold on to power, a tendency to live at the margins of law and social decency. Unlike Narasimha Rao, Modi is not fully in control of his self—his passions and emotions are not fully monitored all the time. What Narasimha Rao did by not doing, Modi has to do by doing. The system will not allow him to get away with it. To understand this is to understand a key component of the culture of democracy in India.




(As told to Sheela Reddy) The author is a clinical pyschologist.
Cover story
Alone, austere and in control, Narendra Modi stands for everything in Gujarat today
Saba Naqvi
Cover story
Jaitley and Modi are both solo flyers, why they have gelled since the latter's Delhi days
gujarat
Modi isn't the central figure of '02, but is better off than in '04
Smita Gupta
interview
Due to examine the complaints received from the Gujarat election campaign, the Chief Election Commissioner explained the legal position.
Outlook
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COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Mar 10, 2009 12:00 AM
130
Ashish Nandy says:Anyone who believes in the ideology believes he has the right to intervene in history, even if it costs the lives of millions.

I feel a deep revulsion for Mr Nandy while reading his bitter diatribe against Modi.

Modi may have sown seeds of communal discord that led to The riots but do we believe he did this in a wonderful vacum?
If so that is dumb!
If Modi survives election 2009 it will be a miracle...I see an orchestra of multi coloured voices painting him black and the rest of the BJP a lighter shade of grey,

The only angels inhabiting our tortured Hind are Manmohan, Rahul and the Holy mother and ofcourse their cohorts or the dimpled darling of debate Yechury and Karat.Karunanidhi's soul is never searched, we have forgotten Deshmukh existed and ofcourse darling Maya...Amar, Akbar & Anthony are such sweethearts..
.No celebrating the few that may have eaten better because Modi the Monster's development, no suggestions that he may be officially consulted where he might have solutions...only this endless griping in publication after publication...
I despair for my country and its blinded or payed off loyalists!
Bindu Tandon
Mumbai, India
Dec 24, 2007 12:00 AM
129
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> You claim rightly that muslims are not liked in India. And I claim also that muslims do not like Hindus, Sikhs, Christians any where in the world.

Why do you carry on with such empty-headed stuff ad nauseum? In how many different ways can you keep repeating the same bigotic theme?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 23, 2007 12:00 AM
128
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> Recently muslims in India have had a couple of glareing listmus tests to test their decency and humanity.

What a stupid argument! Just think of the number of litmus tests you yourself have flunked in this forum.

>> No muslim has ever come forward to help my sister.

What drivel this moron writes!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 23, 2007 12:00 AM
127
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> The attitude of us Hindus towards muslims must be clear to even the most closed mind.

Your attitude is quite clear, but then you are a bigot.

>> I was glad to read August AAA ,s comments to the unlucky ROT, and GF.

You read what you want to read, your comprehension being a total slave to your bigotry.

>> Its utterly naive to believe that you have any dues comeing to you muslims.

A total travesty of what the Sachar report says, but then what can you expect from this empty headed bigot!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 23, 2007 12:00 AM
126
It is utterly naive and silly to say that partition happened because Moslems were anxious about Hindus being vengeful from the memories of Aurangazeb. If a 100 million strong group cannot feel secure with a 300 million strong one, then no minority population anywhere can ever feel secure anytime.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 23, 2007 12:00 AM
125
this writer seems to pretend he can understand the psychology of someone he has met long ago. let him write a piece of psychology that explains hindu hatred among the pseudosecular macaulayists and the leftist parties and press. i challenge him to do that. i shall not have any need to comment on the hindu hatred shared by other co religionists.
hul khan
hyderabad, India
Dec 22, 2007 12:00 AM
124
Reign of Truth, you are speculating about what you feel some Hindus are thinking or would like to do, if they only had the power. Are you aware that the scenario you have painted has *already* occurred, to a very large extent( and continuing)in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kashmir and Afghanistan? Only the victims of this real, not speculative, demographic collapse are Hindus! There's no question of telling some Abdul or Mohammed in Pakistan, Bangladesh or Kashmir what we think he would like to do to Hindus there. He's done it!
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 22, 2007 12:00 AM
123
reignoftruth,

>> Why should a man pay for divorcing his wife ?? Men & Women are equal in Islam. If the women leaves a man will she be paying ??

In several families, the husband goes for work while the wife does not go to work but support/build the family/children instead. In case of a divorce such woman is at a great disadvantage. Getting a decent job without work experience is very difficult (more so, for a 70 year old like Shah Bano) even if she is well educated. She has spent her productive years supporting and helping the husband who used his wife's help to focus on his job, gain good work experience, get promotions etc. In such cases, when there is a divorce imposed on her, then for the sake of upholding justice, human rights and fairness, the Court looks into the case and decides if there is a just reason for alimony and if so, how much. Religious fanaticism can blind people to even basic values, sense of fairness and common sense. The sheer stupidity of Shah Bano case has dealt a death blow to Congress party from which it will probably never recover.

>> ".....Father-in-law rapes daughter-in law.We all know what happened....." - We all know that Islamic shariah is not implemented in india - It was the indian constitution in play !!!

Good. Please explain this to Darul-Uloom and to the members of All-India Muslim Law Board who supported the fatwa on Imrana. The mindset and blindness to common sense shown here too is not different from what was shown in the Shah Bano case.

>> Even if a man utters talaq 3 times in full consciousness - still it is counted as only 1 talaq

Why the clumsy notion of triple talaq at all (resulting in countless victims of injustice) - with no alimony and that too with an endorsement of polygamy – a recipe for disaster and injustice. And the requirement that one needs to call for talaqs in multiple sittings is a just a minor improvement.

>> Liberating oneself of his/hers clothes does not liberate the mind.

Covering with a blanket from head to toe and imposing oppressive restrictions on women liberates the mind?

>> If you would not be feeling lustful after seeing so called modern liberated women in skimpy outfits you would not have complained.

Everyone who is not covered from head to toe appears to you as someone to be lusted after and nothing else?

>> >> "...I can show you the sources and the agreement of islamic scholars on this....(attacks on meccan Caravans)"
>> Please show

Sura 2:117/118 came after the successful raid (and killing) on a Meccan Caravan, to endorse the attack/killing and dispel the doubt that it is ok to kill even in the holy month (since that particular attack took place in the holy month). The battle of Badr itself is a raid where he led his band of about 300 went to raid a large Meccan caravan. According to Ibn Ishaq, Muhammad’s earliest biographer, Muhammad personally took part in several of the raids on caravans. You may find some details in this link:
http://www.americanthin...7/seeds_of_jihad_1.html
(if you have any link arguing that he did not endorse the attacks/killings of caravans, please give it. Every source I checked endorsed the view I presented)
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 22, 2007 12:00 AM
122
>> How about Mr. Fakrukhi forcing his kids to wear Burka in the US??? Let him pit God's will against laws of the land.

I do not know whether to attribute the above to your stupidity or your malice. I have written several times that Muslim women should compete as equals in academic, civic and occupational fields, and that the veil may be a hindrance in this regard.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 22, 2007 12:00 AM
121
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> In case there are enough rich muslims, then there should be no problem in helping themselves.

Ignorant communal hatred dressed up as words of wisdom! Read the Sachar report.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 22, 2007 12:00 AM
120
Vinod:>>"proportional system may not be practical to disburse aid in a democracy"

From systems-theory viewpoint, even good economics can best be orgaizied as a multivariable feddback-control system. It will be the ultimate answer to the problems of the distorted world in pain, difficulty caused by lack of organizn and international political will.

But some limited elements of feedback-control, for which I have pleaded in vain for decades in inst of engrs' mtgs, can be really useful. IF 10-20% of income tax can be fed back as grants to schools, colleges, universities from which taxpayers graduated, [corporates may indicate R&D inst of relevance to their area of activity], as indicated in their ITR forms, good educ/R&D setups will become selfsustaining harward/oxbridges, taking good educ largely out of govt/political control.

Govt funds can then be directed towards free universal elementary educ. High-literacy electorates will eventually produce high-competance parliament and legislatures.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 22, 2007 12:00 AM
119
>>>"muslims in India as a community are not doing well, in services"

Yesterday, bec of bakrid/friday, almost all drugs and grocery shops in chennai city were closed! 1 in 20 with hindu-god names were open.
It is not correct for sachar to say moslems have limited role in india's economy.

Opposition to corporate retail is mainly to sustain the moslem strangle-hold on retail trade [poor services, high profits, only moslems employed], the hindu traders being used as false-front mukhotas for the agitations, just as, in politics, OBC-dynasties as used as the front-faces for moslem-financed parties. Remember an osama with Lalu, another moslem man-lifter for dev gauda, Paswan asking for moslem CM for bihar.

GF should advise his moslem friends in India to be more honest in giving data to commissions such as sachar's. In the long run, honesty would be the best policy, for the community's welfare in harmony with the rest of the country.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 22, 2007 12:00 AM
118
Seshadri,

>> GF should advise his moslem friends in India to be more honest in giving data to commissions.

If the data is not to your liking, it has to be dishonest!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 22, 2007 12:00 AM
117
ROT:>>"".....Father-in-law rapes daughter-in law.We all know what happened....." - We all know that Islamic shariah is not implemented in india - It was the indian constitution in play !!!"

Are you saying that the indian constitution empowers fathers-in-law to rape dtrs-in-law and then marry them?

Perhaps you are saying that the indian constitution is faulty bec it did not insist on a common civil law for the country [eliminating mullah-raj for moslems], along with independance and bec it allowed article 370 for J&K; I am all with you, in that case.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 22, 2007 12:00 AM
116
ROT:>>"Men & Women are equal in Islam"
If your above statement were true, the cultural
history of the world would have been wholly different.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 22, 2007 12:00 AM
115
>>>"In case there are enough rich muslims, then there should be no problem in helping themselves"

Moslems in india may not be rich bec of hard work and earnings by themselves, but they seem to do well with money sent from oil-rich countries, feeding their boys free in madarsas and buying their girl-brides for millions. The pro-moslems policies of 'secular' parties in India, is not out of real pity for poor moslems, but due to enforcement by moslems as their real pay-masters. Moslems now want greater role in police and army, especially, so that they can more effectively jeopardize the external and internal security of the country, no objections from the anti-hindu anti-national outfit misgoverning the country right now.

It would be good for the world if the oil-rich islamic countries would rather take in as immigrants the vast moslem populations outside, [in atonement, bec they are mostly the progeny-by-rape of their forefathers as invaders], instead of sending the money, legal and otherwise, for sustenance and procreative proliferation. But, evil, guided by the devil, will not follow the righteous path. But, eventually, Allah's wrath will wipe away the froth.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 22, 2007 12:00 AM
114
“psychotic rumblings… Was Sachar a Muslim?

Sure – Sachar’ not Muslim, but we do have Muslim whores like “Dr Abusaleh Sharif, the economist who authored the Sachar Commission report”. Amongst his fulminations are: "I am not worried about Muslims becoming terrorists. I am worried about them being labelled terrorists,"

Yep right – dudes like this would NOT doctor data. Abusaleh the whore-boy does not know the difference between "data" and his rear-end - and yes, he's an author of the Sachar report.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 22, 2007 12:00 AM
113
Hard Rock,

>> (To another poster) Your psychotic rumblings do prove a point that you are another Bajrangi.

Thanks for replying to the guy because I do not read his posts.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 22, 2007 12:00 AM
112
"Such has been a blatant denial of due to the Muslims for the last 60 years that any Hindu with an iota of dignity should drown himself in a pint of water"

Sure - its everybody else's fault - those evil Hindoos,especially.

Same as has happened in the UK, where in spite of all the Muslim attempts at educating themselves - they're at the bottom of most social indicators.

Why? Must be those evil Hindoos of UK - holding the sub-continental Muslims back, again.

Psychotic-rumblings-walla - in stead of looking for the Hindu connection to inherent Muslim backwardness in the Indian subcontinent - look for the Muslim connection.

And yes -= reduce the whining and the begging.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 22, 2007 12:00 AM
111
Narendra Modi rightly says that the Tribals are most deserving candidates than anyone-else for selective allocation of resources. It makes a lot of sense in the present realities to stand by the Tribals than with the people the UPA is trying to stand-by. Muslims have been a hypocritical lot. They will beg on one hand and on the other hand, kick the donator from backdoors. I don't where this mentality originates from, but it smells very stinky.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 22, 2007 12:00 AM
110
Babu, Gulam: 'Happy christmas' to babu; also 'holy bakrid' to Gulam.

EeSah krishTo gjnaana-skandah manoo-velah kukha-dhwajah: the almighty as christ is skanda for a gjnaana-yoga religion to the world; known as immanuel in latin, He is manoo-vela, velan [murugan] born human, with the 'cock' on his mast-head, as on chariots of skanda in temples and on the spires of churches in Europe.

In this context, it pains me to see that most christians, who place the cock on churchtops will also religiously kill a turkey on christmas day for dinner. Jesus, recognized as a prophet in quran, is known as the divine shepherd. But moslems ceremoniously kill goats or sheep on bakrid, reducing bhaga-vrata [divine-grace celebration, sword on ismail turned to garland, hence his name: eeSamaalya = god-garlanded], to baka-vrata, goat-killing festival. [May be bec of this, bakaasura as Abu Baker turned nabhi's good and peaceful islam into virulent wahaabism].

My sincere request to babu and gulam and their co-religionists: avoid killing on holy days. Replace turkey or goat by a large pumpkin. Iswar=God=Allah will be pleased. World may yet avoid the H-war; both christianity and islam will live harmoniously for ever with the other religions of the world.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 22, 2007 12:00 AM
109
HARDROCK: You do not have to educate a brahmin on the religious history of aaryavarta. During high-spirituality vedic days, yagas were done by kings for wealth redistribution among people; horses accompanied by soldiers went round whole country, collecting surplus gold, jewels from rich [refusers were forced by soldiers]; collections were distributed to poor coming to the yaaga from all over the country; the foams from the tired mouths of horses were put in yaga fire symbolically dedicating the redistrubution efforts to divinity; hence, the name aswa-medha 'horse-foam' for the yaga. No poor went back without some gifts for sustenance. Kalidasa records in raghuvamsa, that Raghu [ram's great-grandpa] found all gold collection given away when a last poor man arrived for gift from deep south; he sought extra gold from kubera on northern icecap and gave it to him. Ancient india with yagas achieved much better, what modern india's taxation system is not able to achieve, bec of corruption.

Indian civilzn had dark days [kaliyuga] along with rest of world in 2 millennia before buddha/christ, [slavery in egypt, rome], bec of solar system moving farthest from galactic centre. Brahmins foolishly put horses into fire instead of horse-foam. Lord Narayan came as buddha to stop the nonsense. Skanda came as Jesus to give a gjnaana-yoga religion to europe waiting to get modernized.

Reg gujarat riots, I have already said, it was mainly done by pakis dressed as tribals. Moslems everywhere have no feelings for killing eachother. Gujarati hindus, worshippers of Radhe-Shyam are incapable of genocide; they ignored the akshardam attack, leaving it to God for reestablishing dharma.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 22, 2007 12:00 AM
108
H-Rock

"India was partitioned and Pakistan was severed from India, and those who wished to stay behind are "

AS IF PARTITION WAS NOT THE BIGGEST BETRAYAL .

HOWEVER HINDUS HAD ACCEPTED PARTITION BY END OF THE FIFTIES.1965 WAR WITH PAKISTAN and there after Muslims' drift to Wahabism widened the gulf.Muslims' total silence on Kashmiries' betrayel further increased the the gulf.

Now advent of Jehad in India has compeleted the Gulf.

2 It is wrong to say Muslims are denied jobs.Educated Muslims do get the jobs.

Percentage of Muslim drop out rate is very high ? Muslim woman are not allowed to go for job oriented Education. SO 50 % OF MUSLIMS IN INDIA ARE STRAIGHT AWAY NOT QUALIFIED TO GET ANY JOB.

Sachar did ignore the above fact while calculating job percentage.

ROCK just have a look around you and see what I say is true or not ? By the way are Women IN YOUR's AND YOUR;s EXTENDED FAMILY allowed to go for jobs and higher education ?
Ansere yourself.I don't want the answere as I do observe what is happening in Muslim Society.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 21, 2007 12:00 AM
107
Look what plans hindutva has for followers of Prince of Peace!

http://compassdirect.or...5159&backpage=summaries

Tuesday December 18, 2007
INDIA: ATTACK ON CHRISTIANITY REACHES COSMOPOLITAN POCKETS
Fearing conversions, mob damages a church in New Delhi and threatens workers.
NEW DELHI, December 18 Compass Direct News) – Violence and discrimination against Christians in India is reaching beyond uneducated, rural villages – Hindu extremists are increasingly targeting middle class churches in cosmopolitan centers. A mob of at least 150 unidentified people damaged a Catholic church under construction in the national capital on December 5, threatening to break the bones of the site foreman and laborers. The city of Bangalore has become religiously tense after a mob of Hindu extremists in June beat independent pastor Laxmi Narayan Gowda and tried to set him on fire before parading him naked in a suburban area. To influence educated, middle-class people, Hindu extremist groups are setting up IT (Information Technology) shakha (gatherings) “aimed at grooming IT personnel towards the RSS way of thinking,” according to the Rediff.com news website. “The coordinator of the shakha, Suresh Naik, said that this would involve the stimulation of the mind, and the IT professionals will be taught to have a more nationalistic approach,” the news portal noted on November 12.
sumit
Hisar, India
Dec 21, 2007 12:00 AM
106
Ghulam Faruki writes:

>>Sharia is a set of laws emanating from seventh century Arabia, but the underlying principles have a wider applicability, and are not inconsistent with modernity if properly understood.

What must be understood properly here? Sharia principles or modernity? I am open to examine their wider applicability. However, your formulation in its compatibility with modernity in non-negative rather than positive terms leaves me skeptical; Perhaps, warranting heightened scrutiny.

>>Such an interpretation requires "ijtihad" or reform in light of changed circumstances.

I look forward to examining the results of any such forthcoming reinterpretations.

>>The underlying principles are justice, fairness, equality, affirmation of the rights of women, rationality and mercy.

Assuming these words mean the same thing for Sharia supporters and others, are these the values some are itching to impose? What about undisputed terrorists who state that imposition of Sharia as a prime motive to establish a caliphate? Surely, murder and mayhem for such principles is puzzling to say the least. Next, if the principles are so self-evidently attractive in both theory and in practice, why is there a need to impose it? Wouldn't such ideas sell themselves without the help of fellows wearing black ski masks and toting AK-47s?

>>One can find support for principles of democracy and secularism in the Quran and the Sunnah, though many conservative scholars will dispute it.

It is those scholars that the most rank-and-file Muslims look to for authoritative pronouncements. With no offense intended, the vast majority of Muslims are simply ignorant about history and theology. Which is not to say they are stupid, but simply unlettered in those subjects.

>>The Egyptian scholar Khalaf-Allah argued that the Quran did not simply allow democracy, but required it.

If so, with a modified exception for Turkey, most of the Islamic states currently in business are hopelessly anti-koranic? It raises more awkward questions than it answers. Is a span of 1400 years not sufficient for one successful implementation of Kallaf-Allah's Koranic "requirement" of democracy? If it were a Koranic mandate, Muslim societies, claiming to be founded on the Koran, should have been at the vanguard of democracy movement in history, no? Instead, when such societies are perceived as knuckle-draggers, doesn't that fact make the "requirement" theory at best suspect and at worst naive?

>>Even if the traditionalists do not admit it, the subject is in a flux. The seminal work on Sharia is coming from An-Na'im, a professor of law at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia.

I agree the matter is flux. I have yet to see a theory why the "good" guys must necessarily prevail over the "bad" guys in such a flux.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
Dec 21, 2007 12:00 AM
105
>> What about undisputed terrorists who state that imposition of Sharia as a prime motive to establish a caliphate?

Extremism exists, and needs to be defeated. Even among those who are not on the extreme, the right wing has long been in power. Liberals are nascent, moderates silent.

>> doesn't that fact make the "requirement" theory at best suspect.

It is the rhetoric of an activist.

>> I have yet to see a theory why the "good" guys must necessarily prevail over the "bad" guys in such a flux.

Nothing is written. The good guys have to make it happen. But the possibility exists that it may not happen.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 21, 2007 12:00 AM
104
Parbat writes:

>>You reply to Reignoftruth shows up his Islamist imbecility and doubletalk with exemplary clarity and contempt.

I merely asked his definition of Sharia and how it is "far better" and I put the issue in a broader context for a fruitful discussion.

>>You are a seriously bright guy when you play fair.

Chimp to bright guy in one fell swoop? Must be Stephen Jay Gould's punctuated equilibrium theory of evolution....on steroids.

I always play fair. I just reject your definition of fair as championing anything vaguely anti-Islamic. Impotently abusing and constantly demonizing an entire group of fellow human beings and disrespecting them by not seriously engaging their ideas is not my idea of playing fair.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
Dec 21, 2007 12:00 AM
103
Ghulam writes:

>>Extremism exists, and needs to be defeated. Even among those who are not on the extreme, the right wing has long been in power. Liberals are nascent, moderates silent.

I agree. The quickest way to defang the extremists is both kill them and defeat their ideology. Non-muslims can help with the former but only Muslims can wrest back their religion from the hands of thugs who poison it beyond recognition by lacing it with ambition and thirst for conquest.

>>>>doesn't that fact make the "requirement" theory at best suspect.

>>It is the rhetoric of an activist.

Who me or the scholar? If it is the scholar, then he ought to focus more on truth and less on rhetoric. Truth is the wheat, rhetoric is the chaff.

>>Nothing is written. The good guys have to make it happen. But the possibility exists that it may not happen.

I hope the good guys win. As you said, only time will tell.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
Dec 21, 2007 12:00 AM
102
Augustus,

>> only Muslims can wrest back their religion from the hands of thugs who poison it beyond recognition by lacing it with ambition and thirst for conquest.

I agree.

>> he ought to focus more on truth and less on rhetoric.

One can find support in the scriptures for concepts such as "government by consensus", or "consulting the populace", but unfortunately such ideas need rhetorical flourishes to get any attention.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 21, 2007 12:00 AM
101
"

I guess that you should try for immigration to Saudi Arabia, though I do not know whether you will be allowed to settle down there, and acquire Saudi citizenship."

Arabs don't like mawalis, for a good reason.
B Bhattacharyya
Morrisville, USA
Dec 21, 2007 12:00 AM
100
In Surat city there's now a statue of Shivaji, who sacked Surat more than once! Modi has tapped into that self-hatred of the Gujarati middle class and the sanction for violence that flows from it.


What a mororn with little knowledge of hsitory.. When Shivaj attacked that region he was fightign against the islamist who occupied that place.
Rahul
Delhi, India
Dec 21, 2007 12:00 AM
99
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> However do muslims really believe that Hindus
are prepared to provide economic help to them, considering the mutual dislike.?

This moron thinks Sachar proposals are Hindus giving money to Muslims! Aren't there Muslim tax payers too? He thinks the criterion for a community to get aid is to be liked by Hindus!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 21, 2007 12:00 AM
98
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> I am far above people like you.

What can I say to that!!! All I suggested was that you stop writing stupid posts while you are drinking.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 21, 2007 12:00 AM
97
Babu/Bodepudi (to Ashis Nandy),

>> do little research on Islamic terror and its demographic march.

You want to make everyone a paranoid psychotic like yourself?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 21, 2007 12:00 AM
96
Babu/Bodepudi,

>> Secularism in India is an anaesthetic on the weak Hindu patient, before the fatal surgery by the Islamic (Koranic) terrorists.

Run Bodepudi, run! The seculars are coming, the seculars are coming!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 21, 2007 12:00 AM
95
@BUPESH

".......1.An 80 yr old widow is paid a pittance for being divorced by her husband.Pigs take to the streets to create mayhem..........."

Why should a man pay for divorcing his wife ?? Men & Women are equal in Islam. If the women leaves a man will she be paying ??

In fact while marrying a man needs to pay dain meher to the women. The amount which he has to pay is decided by the women - not by the man.
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 21, 2007 12:00 AM
94
@BUPESH
"......3.Father-in-law rapes daughter-in law.We all know what happened....."

We all know that Islamic shariah is not implemented in india - It was the indian constitution in play !!!
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 21, 2007 12:00 AM
93
@BUPESH
"......2.A man utters talaq in an inerbriated state.Reaslises his folly when he regains sense.The pigs of his village would have none of his realisation and force the couple out of the village....."

Even if a man utters talaq 3 times in full consciousness - still it is counted as only 1 talaq (Divorce does not take placE).

At one instance even if u utter 1000 times it will be counted as one.

PROOF FROM ORIGINAL ISLAMIC
BOOKS
*********************************


The Book of Divorce (Kitab Al-Talaq)

Muslim :: Book 9 : Hadith 3491

Ibn 'Abbas (Allah be pleased with them) reported that the (pronouncement) of three divorces during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and that of Abu Bakr and two years of the caliphate of Umar (Allah be pleased with him) (was treated) as one.

Muslim :: Book 9 : Hadith 3492

Abu Sahba' said toIbn 'Abbas (Allah be pleased with them): Do you know that three (divorces) were treated as one during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), and that of Abu Bakr, and during three (years) of the caliphate of Umar (Allah be pleased with him)? Ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with them) said: Yes.

Muslim :: Book 9 : Hadith 3493

Abu al-Sahba' said to Ibn 'Abbas: Enlighten us with your information whether the three divorces (pronounced at one and the same time) were not treated as one during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and Abu Bakr. He said: It was in fact so
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 21, 2007 12:00 AM
92
@BUPESH
"......4.We will have women(even 4 yr old children) in black burqas swarming all over just becuase the pigs cannot control if they see anything skirts or jeans........"

Liberating oneself of his/hers clothes does not liberate the mind.

If you would not be feeling lustful after seeing so called modern liberated women in skimpy outfits you would not have complained.
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 21, 2007 12:00 AM
91
@KUMAR
".....Then he fled, started building religion based army, started looting the Meccan caravans (I stand by this and I can show you the sources and the agreement of islamic scholars on this – if you have a different take on this, I would like to hear – but the point is not solely dependant on this),..........."

I would request you to satrt reading about the treaty of hudaibiya - and from that point onwards...

Treaty

The basic outline of the treaty was as follows:

"In the name of God. These are the conditions of Peace between Muhammad (SAW), son of Abdullah and Suhayl ibn Amr the envoy of Mecca. There will be no fighting for ten years. Anyone who wishes to join Muhammad (SAW) and to enter into any agreement with him is free to do so. Anyone who wishes to join the Quraish and to enter into any agreement with them is free to do so. A young man, or one whose father is alive, if he goes to Muhammad without permission from his father or guardian, will be returned to his father or guardian. But if anyone goes to the Quraish, he will not be returned. This year Muhammad (SAW) will go back without entering Mecca. But next year he and his followers can enter Mecca, spend three days, perform the circuit. During these three days the Quraish will withdraw to the surrounding hills. When Muhammad and his followers enter into Mecca, they will be unarmed except for sheathed swords which wayfarers in Arabia always have with them." (Sahih Muslim 19:4401)


http://en.wikipedia.org...i/Treaty_of_Hudaybiyyah



"...I can show you the sources and the agreement of islamic scholars on this...."

Please show .
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 21, 2007 12:00 AM
90
Reignoftruth,

Let's be realistic. Hindus of India will never accept indian constitution to be replaced with shariah. It all boils down to only one thing. Hindus have seen the muslim way of life in India. And what a degenerating experience it has been! Most of us put up with you only because you have not revolted against the nation in large numbers yet. Seen in this context, a joker like you coming up with strange advices for the Hindus will only make it more degenerating than it is. But you go ahead with you insolent ideas and make a clown out of yourself if that is what makes you feel better.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 21, 2007 12:00 AM
89
@Chaitanya
".......Let's be realistic. Hindus of India will never accept indian constitution to be replaced with shariah......."

That was not the topic of discussion !!!

"........Hindus have seen the muslim way of life in India. And what a degenerating experience it has been! Most of us put up with you only because you have not revolted against the nation in large numbers yet. ........"

You have no other option my dear. So dont portray that muslims are staying in India on the mercy of hindus. If hindus like u had the power to drive all muslims away from india then they would have done so. Hence keep yr murderous impulses under control.
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 21, 2007 12:00 AM
88
@VINOD
"..... people in this country who are living aliens while enjoying all the benefits of democracy without either contributing to the welfare and development of the nation....."

It seems that only you are contributing to development of the nation !!!
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 20, 2007 12:00 AM
87
modi has not only been banned by u.s. but also by EU. EU and U.S. have bannned him for good reason.
sanjay misra
Tumkur, India
Dec 20, 2007 12:00 AM
86
1. Divided Polity.
2. Aloner, ambitious, pig-headed extreme rightist ideologue

what comes next should give a sense of deja vu
sanjay misra
Tumkur, India
Dec 20, 2007 12:00 AM
85
Very nice Sanjay Misra, but what's the 'good reason' those oh-so-elevated and enlightened countries *haven't* banned visits by Saudi Arabia, China and Pakistan? Because those countries' leaders are the exact antithesis of Modi- secular, democractic, pluralistic and humanistic? Give me a break.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 20, 2007 12:00 AM
84
Looking at the cover of Hindi edition of "Outlook Saptahik," are the two fellows with bandaged heads showing the knives used in their respective lobotomies?

I don't know. I am just asking.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
Dec 20, 2007 12:00 AM
83
Thomasmid/Bagai,

>> Were you responsible for my getting banned.?

I do not ask that anyone be banned, but I do bring extremely vicious posts such as yours to the attention of Outlook. You have been banned three times, so you should know by now what gets you banned.

>> You have been in this forum now for years, and no one at all (leaveing some members of your faith) have any thing good to say about you.

It is late in Denmark. Time to stop drinking. Go to bed.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 20, 2007 12:00 AM
82
@KUMAR

Last post is meant 4 u
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 20, 2007 12:00 AM
81
"....Even written text can be interpreted/understood in multiple ways..."

1) So why dont u use this logic to defend Islam instead of criticizing it ?? Why you always want to go with the wrong intepretation ??

Secondly - Quran was explained by Prophet Muhammad PBUH - and he presented a live example - so in terms of commandments there are no interpretations to make.

Although there are some cases where interpretations can vary - those are related to non-core issues & not significant at all

"...For example, someone can say that since Muhammad and Khalifs went on a wars on various nations and established rule of law based on submission to islam, the same should be done now ;..."

Rule was not based on submission to Islam - which you are claiming time & again. It was based on following the Islamic shariah. In India we have to obey the indian constitution. Similarly Islam has its own constitution which one needs to follow if someone is staying in Islamic rule.

However even under Islamic rule people of other faiths can live & practise their faith. So where is the question of submission to Islam ??

".....Or since they killed those who criticized/insulted the prophet, the same should be done now;.........."

If you know half versions of truth then it is yr problem.
There were people who used to throw garbage on prophet muhammad while he walked the streets, there were people who stoned him so much that his shoe was filled with his blood and he had fainted - however after the conquest of makkah he forgave all of them.

Can you give me example with reference about someone who was killed for insulting prophet ?? I think as usual you have read half truth somewhere.

"... Or since they considered/taught that testimony of a woman in some cases is less valuable, the same should be done now etc ...."

In Islam there are certain areas where women have more rights and then there are some areas where men are considered superior - but if you look as a whole then men & women are equal in Islam. However they are not treated as identical.

ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 20, 2007 12:00 AM
80
HappyRam/Minu,

>> Seculars did nothing for 60 yrs.

Failure is bad enough, but an open policy of opposition is a lot worse.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 20, 2007 12:00 AM
79
>> GUJRAT GOVT HAD BEEN GIVEN FUNDS FOR REHABLITATION OF RIOT VICTIMS BUT WAS NOT UTILISING THE FUNDS.

This is damning enough, isn't it?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 20, 2007 12:00 AM
78
>> BUT MANMOHAN IS NOT NOW DISTRIBUTING FUNDS IN GUJRAT ? Has he distributed relief to 1984 Sikh victims ? Daily we see thos eunfortunates crying on TV . SO WHAT CENTRE IS DOING FOR LAST ONE YEAR OR SO SINCE THEY GOT BACK THE MONEY ?? Before that Gujrat Govt was distributing funds .They gave the figures too.

The simple point was that Modi had not used the funds given to him by the Center in spite of dire need of the victims of the riots.

Good night!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 20, 2007 12:00 AM
77
What we have in India is a puppet PM and puppet President at the same time. Only Congress can achieve such a remarkable feat. Atleast Abdul Kalam was independent in many ways though he did not let afzal to be hanged. The current president, whatever her name is(which i don't remember and i am sure most indians don't remember it either except the school kids) will sure be hopeless and will remain a congress servant. Manmohan singh is a weakling in every way and is a bad symbol of India's strength externally. India needs strong leadership badly. Is Narendra Modi listening.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 20, 2007 12:00 AM
76
ReignOfTruth,

>> >> "....Even written text can be interpreted/understood in multiple ways..."
>> 1) So why dont u use this logic to defend Islam instead of criticizing it ?? Why you always want to go with the wrong intepretation ??

I use that logic to defend moderate positions and criticize an extremist version. But there are those who see the extremist version as the right interpretation and hence see it as criticism of islam.

>> Quran was explained by Prophet Muhammad PBUH - and he presented a live example - so in terms of commandments there are no interpretations to make. …Rule was not based on submission to Islam - which you are claiming time & again. It was based on following the Islamic shariah.

So, should muslims today form a communal based army and go on a war on the nations and establish Islamic shariah? BTW, when I talk of 'wars on the nations to establish submission to islam', I do primarily mean conquering and establishing islamic shariah as the rule of law (and that qualification does not make it any better)

>> In India we have to obey the indian constitution. Similarly Islam has its own constitution which one needs to follow if someone is staying in Islamic rule. However even under Islamic rule people of other faiths can live & practise their faith. So where is the question of submission to Islam ??

That is like saying that there is no difference between the indian constitution and hindu rastra/hindutva. The difference is, the indian constitution strives to treat all citizens equal without a communal predisposition towards any religion (religion is for the individuals to decide). It does not allow one religious texts to dictate terms of reference to others (pushing others to political subservience). It strives to uphold basic human dignity, universal human rights, non-discrimination (on communal lines), equal freedom of speech, common good/justice to all citizens, equality of opportunity/participation etc. Even the proponents of hindu rastra claim that other faiths can practice their religion (just that others have to abide by the religious terms/conditions/dictates of religious texts preferred by hindu rastra).

>> There were people who used to throw garbage on prophet muhammad while he walked the streets, there were people who stoned him so much that his shoe was filled with his blood and he had fainted - however after the conquest of makkah he forgave all of them.

I am all for preaching of forgiveness on any pretext. (I am not sure though, if what you cited is the best of examples for forgiveness. Once the army grew stronger, there was attacks on Meccan caravans, and the return to Mecca was with a mighty army with tales on how opponents are dealt with and it more a case of surrender/submission by Meccans)

>> Can you give me example with reference about someone who was killed for insulting prophet ?? I think as usual you have read half truth somewhere.

Let me use this as an opportunity to bring back the discussion to where we began. In the cases like that of Salman Rushdie, the islamic scholars give out several examples of how/why historically/theologically people were killed for same reasons. The moderate voices should speak up and win the debate against the extremists.

>> In Islam there are certain areas where women have more rights and then there are some areas where men are considered superior - but if you look as a whole then men & women are equal in Islam. However they are not treated as identical.

That may be like saying, “there are some indices where Ethopia fares better than USA and there are some others where USA fares better - so while the development level of the two countries is not 'identical', it is 'equal'”. On a case by case basis, we need to see if the law is fair/proper and if there is a scope for improvement.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 20, 2007 12:00 AM
75
@THOMAS
"....I am amazed that whereas we Hindus are most unwelcome to express any views about you,we are nevertheless expected to provide you with economic assistance to help you out from your backward situation..."

Views which hindus present are often derogatory and critical about islam.
Whatever hindus speak against Islam is based on hearsay without any proofs.
If you have to express views with the aim of reforming then you have to be objective (unbiased) and you have to speak with facts.
If you make sircastic comments and attack Islamic faith,
if you call derogatory names for our prophets
If you call Islam as religion of terror

Then who will listen to you ??


"....If Islam is a such a perfect religion, and provides you with all that you need to live a good life, then prove it, and stop badgering us...."

Who is badgering you ?? People like you are time & again criticizing Islam unnecessarily - when you get a response you are crying. What should muslims do ?? Just listen to yr lies and abuses and remain silent??

"......The entire muslim world is always asking for alms, help, and is unable to help itself or others. But it is jolly good at makeing problems...."

There are muslim countries that are doing better than India in terms of economy & human development. Also there are countries which are poor. What do you have to say about Nepal - the only hindu country in the world ??

"....Do muslims ever debate with each other, in a muslim website, without the presence of us infidels.? It would be good for you- and it would be good for us as well...."

Yes - there are lots of forums where we debate with each other.
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 20, 2007 12:00 AM
74
@KUMAR
"....In the cases like that of Salman Rushdie, the islamic scholars give out several examples of how/why historically/theologically people were killed for same reasons. ....."

I dont know which kind of freedom of speech you are talking about.

If someone for ex. calls someone other person a pimp will such a freedom of speech be acceptable ?? What if that someone is yr father or brother ??

Muslims love prophet Muhammad PBUH and if someone abuses him then it is stretching freedom of speech too far.

If I call salman rushdie a pimp and his wife a whore would it be acceptable to the world in the name of freedom of speech ?? Don't have different standards for different people.

In islam if someone spreads slanderous alligations against others then irrespective of whether the victim is a muslim or a non muslim and irrespective of whether the person doing such a crime is a muslim or non-muslim he will be given 80 lashes in front of the public.

If you think that this is harsh then sorry - ask from those people whose reputation is at stake.
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 20, 2007 12:00 AM
73
@Kumar
"....So, should muslims today form a communal based army and go on a war on the nations and establish Islamic shariah?....."

Islamic shariah is not implemented in any muslim majority country in the world except Saudi Arabia.

So where does question of conquering others and establishing Islamic shariah arise; when except for saudi no muslim country has implemented Islamic shariah ?

I think these kind of thoughts are due to Islamophobia which is a result of constant bombardment by the media against Islam.
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 20, 2007 12:00 AM
72
@Kumar

"........That is like saying that there is no difference between the indian constitution and hindu rastra/hindutva..."

There is vast amount of difference between indian constitution and Islamic Shariah - Islamic shariah is far better than the indian constitution.
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 20, 2007 12:00 AM
71
@Kumar
"....I am not sure though, if what you cited is the best of examples for forgiveness....."

Ok - you give me a better example of forgiveness than what I quoted.

Prophet Muhammad and his companions were tortured by the non-muslims of makkah during early phase of islam. He beared all the torture and ultimately had to leave his homeland.

However when he returned back & conquered makkah - he forgave all those people without any pre conditions.

Now you are saying that this is not a good example of forgiveness - so you present me a better example.

Once the army grew stronger, there was attacks on Meccan caravans, and the return to Mecca was with a mighty army....."
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 20, 2007 12:00 AM
70
@Kumar
".... Once the army grew stronger, there was attacks on Meccan caravans, and the return to Mecca was with a mighty army....."

If you know that there were attacks on meccan caravan then you should also know who were the people who attacked the caravans. Was those attacks led by( or under the guidance of) prophet muhammad ??

Please read the full history instead of relying on anti islamic websites.
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 20, 2007 12:00 AM
69
Reignoftruth writes:

>>There is vast amount of difference between indian constitution and Islamic Shariah

If you mean by that the former is a clumsy civic document and the latter is a codification of foreign tribal customs with ambiguous religious compulsion, you have the gift for the obvious.

>>Islamic shariah is far better than the indian constitution.

far better at what?

But before you make a complete fool with your answer, here's an easier question. What is your definition of Sharia? Is it just the Koran? Koran and Sunna? or does it also include fiqh?

In 1998 the Turkish Constitutional Court Refah Party because the "rules of sharia", which Refah tried to introduce, "were incompatible with the democratic regime." The court stated "Democracy is the antithesis of sharia." On appeal by Refah the European Court of Human Rights determined that "sharia is incompatible with the fundamental principles of democracy."

On the other side, a legal "scholar," L. Ali Khan, argues unconvincingly "that constitutional orders founded on the principles of Sharia are fully compatible with democracy, provided that religious minorities are protected and the incumbent Islamic leadership remains committed to the right to recall".

Those of us equipped with alarms that can detect nonsense find our alarms going off at the implicit arbitrariness and sufferance that Ali Khan's nonsense drips with. First, we have no idea how Khan defines "democracy" or which Islamic state meets that definition of democracy. Second, the silence on the consequences for failing to protect minorities makes Khan seem like little more than low rent huckster.

Islamic states complained that UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights doesn't take into account "cultural and religious" context of non-western countries. So, they signed the "Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam."

The first problem with the Cairo Declaration is that Islamic Sharia is the sole source of these rights. In other words, unless sharia grants it, it is not a human right. This definitional sleight of hand is not obvious either to the blind or the brainwashed. Furthermore, it glaringly fails to mention freedom of religion. While it claims to forbid restrictions on marriage based on "race, color or nationality," it leaves out religion. It promises "equal dignity" to women (which doesn't cost anything to say) but on equality of rights, it is deafly silent.

What is purported to be the best of Sharia is often less than standards in a number of Muslim countries. And these countries are not exactly the vanguard of defending the dignity of an individual human being.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
Dec 20, 2007 12:00 AM
68
Augustus Old Mac:

Bravo !!!

You reply to Reignoftruth shows up his Islamist imbecility and doubletalk with exemplary clarity and contempt.

I thoroughly enjoyed your performance.

You are a seriously bright guy when you play fair.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Dec 20, 2007 12:00 AM
67
ReignOfTruth,

>> I dont know which kind of freedom of speech you are talking about. If someone for ex. calls someone other person a pimp will such a freedom of speech be acceptable ?? What if that someone is yr father or brother ??

If the person in question is political or religious figure claiming a following, they need to face scrutiny, allegations, charges and questioning. If the early islamic sources cite killings, intolerance to criticism, ruthless eliminating of opponents, religious wars on the nations and establishing religion based rule of law (with political subservience of others), , laws that are oppressive on women, violation of basic human rights etc (which are impacting lives to this day), do you expect that no one should question anything? Get real, please. May be, some justifications may be attempted to these actions, or may be some of these early islamic sources may be unreliable or exaggerating, may be reinterpretations/reform is required etc, but that does not mean that people cannot challenge/question the actions/doctrines/claims etc.

>> Muslims love prophet Muhammad PBUH and if someone abuses him then it is stretching freedom of speech too far.

Many love Modi too (sorry for the example), is challenging him “stretching freedom of speech too far”? Or how about challenging/scrutinizing the many religious leaders and godmen? The only way to escape criticism is to go out of reckoning.

>> Islamic shariah is not implemented in any muslim majority country in the world except Saudi Arabia. So where does question of conquering others and establishing Islamic shariah arise…?

You claimed that there is no need of any interpretation as we have the direct example of lives of the founders to follow, so I asked, since Muhammad and Khalifs went on a mission of wars (using religion based army) and established islamic shariah, should the Muslims today ought to do the same?

>> Prophet Muhammad and his companions were tortured by the non-muslims of makkah during early phase of islam. He beared all the torture and ultimately had to leave his homeland.
>> However when he returned back & conquered makkah - he forgave all those people without any pre conditions. Now you are saying that this is not a good example of forgiveness - so you present me a better example.
>> If you know that there were attacks on meccan caravan then you should also know who were the people who attacked the caravans. Was those attacks led by( or under the guidance of) prophet muhammad ??

It is true that he was persecuted in the beginning of his career. Then he fled, started building religion based army, started looting the Meccan caravans (I stand by this and I can show you the sources and the agreement of islamic scholars on this – if you have a different take on this, I would like to hear – but the point is not solely dependant on this), had a few wars with Meccans and a situation came when the Meccans are not in a position to resist and completely submit to his army (the gory tales of how opponents are treated is well known by then). The condition on which he spared is that there be no resistance, no criticism (some of them did and some of them faced the characteristic treatment that his opponents face) and that they completely surrender to him. Strategically nothing is gained by killing those who became his followers and willing to fight his future battles. South Africa's 'Truth and Reconciliation Commission' is a good example of forgiveness. Or in rioting situations one sees examples of good samaritans helping people on both sides solely for humanitarian reasons (risking their own lives), even when they themselves are the affected party. We see good examples of forgiveness and reconciliation in day to day life on humanitarian and moral basis even when the ideas/views/religion etc differ (not just when the other falls at the feet and becomes a unquestioning follower)
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 20, 2007 12:00 AM
66
Augustus,

>> What is your definition of Sharia?

Sharia is a set of laws emanating from seventh century Arabia, but the underlying principles have a wider applicability, and are not inconsistent with modernity if properly understood. Such an interpretation requires "ijtihad" or reform in light of changed circumstances. The underlying principles are justice, fairness, equality, affirmation of the rights of women, rationality and mercy. One can find support for principles of democracy and secularism in the Quran and the Sunnah, though many conservative scholars will dispute it. The Egyptian scholar Khalaf-Allah argued that the Quran did not simply allow democracy, but required it. Even if the traditionalists do not admit it, the subject is in a flux. The seminal work on Sharia is coming from An-Na'im, a professor of law at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
65
Falling back on Hindutva
DIONNE BUNSHA

http://www.hinduonnet.c...s/20080104242513100.htm

"On failing to sell his government’s achievements to Gujarat’s voters, Narendra Modi pumps up Hindutva chauvinism in his speeches.
The fact that Modi still uses the communal card is an indication that stirring prejudices still works with certain sections of the electorate, particularly the urban voters. It is a sad reminder that even five years after the communal carnage in the State, the prejudice and polarisation remains strong even if there is no violence."

POLITICS
Hate speech and the law

http://www.hinduonnet.c...s/20080104242513200.htm

"In a desperate move to stop the Bench from issuing notice to Modi, his counsel asked the Bench to ignore the emotional and political rhetoric of Modi and keep away from the political realm as Modi had not referred to the pending case at all in his speech. The Bench, however, was not convinced, and sought Modi’s reply to the contempt notice by the last week of January 2008. The Bench also decided to consider lyricist Javed Akthar’s plea that Modi be booked for exhorting the people to resort to violence, when it resumes hearing next month.

Although observers believed that the Bench’s notice to Modi would influence the ongoing campaign in Gujarat, it goes to the credit of the Bench that it confined itself only to the gravity of the charge against Modi, uninfluenced by extraneous electoral considerations of political rivals in the State."

Modi's Gujaratis

http://www.countercurre...rg/haiderkhan171207.htm

"Who is a Gujarati?
What kind of a question is this? Gujarati is anyone who lives in Gujarat. That's what I assumed whenever Narendra Modi spoke of 5 crore Gujarati's pride (asmita). I thought, he meant all people living in Gujarat. But I always had little bit of doubt, has Modi had a change of heart? How is it that he speaking about every citizens of Gujarat. Then I thought, It is not proper to doubt his every statement and safe to assume that at least on the record he is talking about all the people living in Gujarat.
While I was still in the midst of this confusion of who is a Gujarati and who is not, I recalled an interview by a Gujarati Lord Meghnad Desai. An economist and social activist Lord Desai said in the interview that for last one and a half decade Sangh Parivar have been actively promoting this thinking among the Hindus that only they are Gujarati and others are "them." This new thinking have been accepted by the middle class, this is the same class that is active in the online world and you can see effect of this thinking in blogs and comments on various sites. This middle class serves as the ideological courier of the Parivar. Now you can easily understand that whenever there is a mention of 5 crore Gujaratis, who is being left out."
sanjay misra
Tumkur, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
64
I disagree with Nandy’s general point that power defangs either in general or in Modi’s case. A taste of power only feeds the appetite and ambition for more power. What would defang Modi are strong political, legal, civic institutional restraints. Given the Indian edition of those institutions are at best craven and at worst complicit, it is quite possible for Modis of various kinds to become something more than fleas on a dog’s behind.

If Nandy didn’t have a patient-therapist relationship with Modi, then nothing prevents Nandy from assessing Modi based on his interview; even if there were no public interest involved. Therefore, I am puzzled at Nandy’s claim of professional ethics hampering him from divulging the details of his Modi interview. But Nandy is underhanded to begin insinuating that Modi’s role in 2002 pogroms is rooted in self-hatred and then backing off as not wanting to “speculate.” Either don’t say anything or say what needs to be said.

I don’t like Nandy’s self-hatred analysis. It is too facile of an explanation even for a dangerous demagogue. Even if Modi hated himself, that's his problem. Besides, being incorruptible and earnest is not a disaster. However, if they served a murderous ideology then that’s a different story. If a murderous ideology brought him to political significance in Gujarat, he will keep doing what brings him success.

The contrast between Modi and other politicians on relative anxiety doesn’t make sense. They are all anxious that they might have to find real jobs if they lost power. However, Nandy makes an intriguing point about Gujarati middle class enjoying violence by proxy. Unfortunately, the analysis stops cold after hinting it without fleshing out more detail. Therefore, the point remains shallow.

I disagree with Nandy that Modi’s appeal to middle class constituency makes him more anxious because it is fickle. He is probably more worried of maintaining his balance. On the one hand he has to keep feeding his constituency political red meat while expanding his viability as a national politician. His constituency needs tangible results that this beast can pull their ideological wagon. Otherwise, they will conclude he’s all talk and find another eager beast of burden. Additionally, I am not sure what maneuvering room that Modi preserved unlike Thackerey and Togadia.

Nandy’s rhetoric costs him credibility when he says anyone who strongly believes in an ideology arrogates a right to intervene in history even if it costs millions of lives. Balderdash. There are plenty of ideologies (of course Modi’s isn’t one of them) that stop at explaining history without trying to fill-in their deficiencies with human sacrifice.

His comparison between Modi and P.V. Narasimha Rao left me dumbfounded. Narasimha Rao’s soft hindutva which led to Ayodhya's destruction and Modi’s hard hindutva are only differences in degree. Nandy claims P.V. Narasimha Rao’s intelligence and his Brahiminical familiarity with power contrasts with Modi’s intuitive political scrappiness and unfamiliarity with power. Somehow that contrast will make a difference in a decrepit political culture like India is Nandy’s simple, perhaps simplistic, faith. I need more than that for a happy ending.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
63
Thomasmid/Bagai,

You could have made your return less garish than the senseless and hateful post that you wrote. It does not deserve an answer.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
62
Modi has actually made poltics casteless, or non-casteist, as his politics is based not on caste but nationalism? It's the 'secular forces' - Cong, Commies et al who are communalists - it's they who resort to casteist demagoguery and religious bigotry, especially when the PM openly perverts the EC rules, and pandering to his Muslim votebank, he openly declares that Muslims have first claims on national resources - not my words, but his, the present PM's.
So, Who're the real communalists, Modi or the Cong hpyocrites??
Bodh
Springfield, United States
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
61
Welcome Baba THOMASMID ji !

"The author is a clinical pyschologist." Ashis Nandi is himself a clinical case .He does not realise that with advent 0f Islamic Terorism and spread of Jehad World over Modism is now a cult like Gill Encounter formula.Even Pakistan the Mother of all Terror is following these Theories.Waziristan,Balochistan-Bugti's elimination ,missile strikes on various Frontier locations in Pakistan for suspected Terrorist camps etc are just variation of Encounter Policy.

For one terrorist Sabrudin who was caught by Congressi Digvijay Singh's Govt with AK -56s,RDX,Gernades,20000 cartridges - our dyed Secularists are raving and ranting .Knowing fully well these armaments were meant to kill us the innocent Muslims \Hindus .

This shows where the sysmpathies of the Tainted Intelligentia is.

There are many hard core, Pro -Islam and half baked Secularists who will critise Modism and Gill Encounter formula .India is blessed in abundace these Authors with slanted impractical views .

After 9 \11 the World has changed.ALL OF A SUDDEN HUMAN RIGHTS GROUPS have closed their Shops except in India.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
60
@Ghai
"......For one terrorist Sabrudin who was caught by Congressi Digvijay Singh's Govt with AK -56s,RDX,Gernades,20000 cartridges......"

Whats the proof ??
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
59
@bodh
"....Modi has actually made poltics casteless, or non-casteist, as his politics is based not on caste but nationalism?......"

Excessive nationalism is also a form of fundamentalism.
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
58
@Thomasmid
"...My conclusion is that Islam and muslims are unchangeable. If it was otherwise, then muslims would not be what they are today......"

Muslims are in bad shape because they are Changeable. They have started aping the west in the name of modernization & have forgotten their roots.

Had they remained unchanged and followed Islam in its purest form they would have ruled the world just like what happened at the time of prophet and the 4 khalifas who came after him.
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
57
@Thomasmid

Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] had said, "The nations will gather against you like those who are invited to a feast while they are starving." The companions asked, "Is this going to occur when we will be few in number?" The messenger of God (PBUH) replied "No, you will be in large numbers, but you will be like the foam, that floats on the ocean. Your enemies will no longer fear you. The wahm will be in your heart." They asked what is wahm? He replied, "The love of this life and fear of death."
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
56
@Thomas
The last post sums up the current situation of Muslims against which the prophet had warned 1400 yrs ago.
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
55
"Had they remained unchanged and followed Islam in its purest form they would have ruled the world just like --"

LIKE AURANGJEB the purest Sunni who destroyed the Mugliya Saltnat ?
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
54
@Ghai
"...LIKE AURANGJEB the purest Sunni who destroyed the Mugliya Saltnat ? ...."

Was Mugliya saltanat Islamic in any way ??
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
53
Modi is marginalising sensible Gujaratis. Modi is a curse in the land of Mahatma Gandhi.He is coldblooded and how he is going to end up? His face reflects all and his actions has taken a face, the face of Modi. Now he is antimuslim and he may turn into antihindu if it suits him. He is using hindutva for his own glorification. Hindutva does not need such a bigoted person. When it needs such a person, it is better to be extinct.
pear
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
52
ReignOfTruth,

>> Muslims are in bad shape because they are Changeable. They have started aping the west in the name of modernization & have forgotten their roots.

What we call 'modernity' consists of the idea of secular democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, equality of rights/justice of all citizens (regardless of religion, race, gender etc) before the law for etc. If there are any people who have problem with these, it is by those who say/think that such ideas are incompatible with Islamic theology/history.

>> Had they remained unchanged and followed Islam in its purest form they would have ruled the world just like what happened at the time of prophet and the 4 khalifas who came after him.

There indeed was an attempt to establish submission to islam by the means of war on the nations, but it is the reverses in the battlefield that stopped them and not due to 'aping the west in the name of modernization'. There are those who see "purest form of Islam" as those religion-based wars to establish submission to islam. That such ideas are still alive in some sections/places (and hence opposition to modernity/freedom/democracy etc for this reason) is the problem - not 'modernity'.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
51
Faruki:

How about when a deeply tolerant majority is steadily and ruthlessly undermined by a savagely intolerant and fast-growing minority? That is India's situtation.



Who are the Nazis of today? Everyone knows.

As for pogroms, they wwere carried out unprovoked by Muslims in Kashmir and in Kerala.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
50
@Parbat
".....How about when a deeply tolerant majority is steadily and ruthlessly undermined by a savagely intolerant and fast-growing minority? That is India's situtation. ........"

Mnay people feel otherwise - including me.
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
49
@Kumar
".....What we call 'modernity' consists of the idea of secular democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, equality of rights/justice of all citizens (regardless of religion, race, gender etc) before the law for etc......."

First of all who told you that "Secular Democracy" is the best form of government ?? It is because of secular democracy that not so secular Modi and Criminals become leaders of state.

Secondly - apart from secular democracy whatever you have stated is nothing new for Islam; Islam has rules which uphold those values and it is there since past 1400 yrs.
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
48
@Kumar
".... but it is the reverses in the battlefield that stopped them and not due to 'aping the west in the name of modernization'. ..."

If there were reverses in battle field then it was because of the same reason which I am talking about - that is muslims leaving the concept of Islam and aping other cultures & civilizations.

In fact porphet Muhammad PBUH had warned muslims about this very fact:

Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] had said, "The nations will gather against you like those who are invited to a feast while they are starving." The companions asked, "Is this going to occur when we will be few in number?" The messenger of God (PBUH) replied "No, you will be in large numbers, but you will be like the foam, that floats on the ocean. Your enemies will no longer fear you. The wahm will be in your heart." They asked what is wahm? He replied, "The love of this life and fear of death."
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
47
@Kumar
".....There are those who see "purest form of Islam" as those religion-based wars to establish submission to islam......."

Religion is related to heart - hence no person can force others to follow a particular religion.

If someone is forcing others to follow Islam then it means:

1) He himself does not know anything about Islam - because Islam does not believe in forceful concersions
2) Since he himself does not know what islam is - then how it is possible that he cud teach the other person about Islam ??
Why will a person convert others to Islam forcefully - when it is against Islam to do so ??

Don't keep on repeating yr lies time n again.

ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
46
@Vinod
".... India is a successful secular democracy while the Islamic Pakistan which practices name sake democracy is suffering because of lack of democracy......."

1) There is nothing Islamic about the Pakistani state. To put it in simple terms - Pakistan is not an Islamic state - it is a state with Muslim majority
2) Pakistan is suffering not because of democracy or the lack of it. In fact though I have never been a fan of musharraf - however his tenure (as a dictator) has been better than that of benazir or nawaz sharif (democracy) - both corrupt politicians.

In fact Pakistan presents a live example of the fact that democracy is not always the best form of government.

"..... Even if Islam has not evolved according to the needs of the time and unlike other religions and as it prohibits any change to its basic tenets it may not be worthwhile to say that Islam will ever value democracy,liberalism and open society..."

If you can explain Democracy, liberalism & Open Society then I can explain the Islamic viewpoint about these concepts.
This is because these terms are interpreted differently by different people.

However I would just say that Islam is not against these concepts - however we have to draw the line somewhere. This is because no definition in the world is going to be acceptable to everyone.
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
45
@vinod
"... There is another REIGNOFTERROR on this forum by the name Ghulam Faruki who thinks on a similar line. ...."

I dont have the habit of praising others -:)

However I will like to say that he is one of the few people on this forum who talks sense.

Whenever he speaks he tries to reason with facts & logic - he is calm, not easily provocated and avoids needless arguments.

I think trying to run him down by calling him names is what people who have run out of ideas indulge in.
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
44
@Vinod

"..... Modi is a democratically elected leader and people are free to choose their leaders......."

Very true - thats why democracy is not the best form of government - because if majority of the people are communal then a communal leader will get selected.

Thats the reason when majority is illiterate people like laloo become CM of Bihar.

Majority is not always correct.
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
43
@Vinod
"....Modi surely a nightmare and a curse for the anti nationals....."

Those who are really anti national they love modi. In fact they would like more such Modis. Also Modi can't do anything against them - though they can if they want.

I can bet on this - no real anti nationalist element/Terrorist fears Modi.
Those who fear Modi are innocent muslims who are being used as pawns in his political game.

What Modi can do is that he can target and kill innocent muslims and later claim it to be an act in national interest.

Modi's talk about nationalism is for furthering his political ambitions. Modi is no more nationalist than Sohrabuddin whom he got murdered.
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
42
ReignOfTruth,

>> If there were reverses in battle field then it was because of the same reason which I am talking about - that is muslims leaving the concept of Islam and aping other cultures & civilizations.

So you are in agreement with those who were waging such wars and hope that those who were on a mission to wage religion-based wars to establish a rule of law for 'submission to islam' were fully successful (too bad that they lost out as they started aping other cultures & civilizations?)

>> Religion is related to heart - hence no person can force others to follow a particular religion

But it is quite possible to wage wars and establish a religion-based rule of law. Anyway, the point of discussion is about the dominant voices of those who believe/advocate killing of critics, violence, revenge etc and claim that they rightfully represent theology/history of islam with no one to counter them.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
41
ReignOfTruth,

>> First of all who told you that "Secular Democracy" is the best form of government ?? It is because of secular democracy that not so secular Modi and Criminals become leaders of state.

I agree that Modi represents the anomaly of a democracy (even if a temporary aberration). Only thing that would have been worse is, if Modi were a theocratic religious leader who does not have to face criticism, face elections, gives himself the religious sanction to kill opponents/enemies, impose religion based rule of law etc. Even in a case like Modi, democracy still holds checks, balances and opportunity to confront. Modi would be easily defeated if the opponent political party has enough moral authority, conviction and credibility to get onto the streets and work for social/communal harmony, humanitarian based brotherhood, raise the moral consciousness of people based on humanism etc.

>> Secondly - apart from secular democracy whatever you have stated is nothing new for Islam; Islam has rules which uphold those values and it is there since past 1400 yrs.

Just that the people who believe so or argue so seems to be totally voiceless (one hopes that it is not because the theological/historical evidence is heavily loaded against the moderates). The dominant voices seem to be those who believe strongly that the “pure form” of islam believes/advocates killing of critics, suppressing free speech, violence etc. Modi and his supporters feel vindicated whenever there is a blatant display of Islamic fanaticism/high-handedness. This is giving a hard time to those who are fighting Modi. It is of little value to merely claim in a discussion forum, that the values of free speech etc are upheld for 1400 years when evidence is lacking and there is hardly a audible voice in public that is arguing in its favor (and opposing the loud voice of the fundamentalists who do not agree that Islam supports the values of free speech etc).
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
40
@KUMAR
"....So you are in agreement with those who were waging such wars and hope that those who were on a mission to wage religion-based wars to establish a rule of law for 'submission to islam' were fully successful (too bad that they lost out as they started aping other cultures & civilizations?)..."

1) Islam does not believe in waging wars for convertng people. Hence if at all muslims started these kinds of wars then they were "aping other cultures & civilizations" - and if they lost in the end then they shld blame themselves for starting something which was anyway non-islamic.

Hence in these types of wars success or failure in war has nothing to do with Islam

2) Muslims took part in some wars that were forced upon them (they did not start but were attacked).
In these kinds of wars they lost because they were again not prepared as they were "aping other cultures & civilizations"

3) There were some wars which was forced upon muslims but still muslims were victorious as they were following Islam in pure form - even though they were facing much stronger & superior armies.

4) It may be possible that muslims lose a battle even though they were not "aping other cultures & civilizations". However the loss would only be temporary - because ultimate victory is for the believers.

The reason is that Islamic wars are not fought for winning or losing - it is for the sake of fulfilling ones duty. It is for the purpose of fighting against oppression for peace to prevail.

For this purpose a person who participates in fight for justice will be rewarded according to his efforts irrespective of whether muslims win or lose the battle.

5) However if muslims start "aping other cultures & civilizations" then there is no escape of getting humiliated, disgraced and others taking advantage of the situation (as is the case now)
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
39
@Kumar
"......The dominant voices seem to be those who believe strongly that the “pure form” of islam believes/advocates killing of critics, suppressing free speech, violence etc. ........"

Any viewpoint should be based on facts. Islam is not a religion which was transmitted verbally - rather everything was well written & documented.

Inspite of that most people refuse to refer to religious books and go by hearsay. That is the root cause of such situation.

ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
38
Parbat/Ramdas/Sandhu/Abdullah/Thomas,

>> deeply tolerant majority is steadily and ruthlessly undermined by a savagely intolerant and fast-growing minority?

Is your "deeply tolerant majority" reflected in the following description by Kuldip Nayar : "Modi and the BJP have been communalising the polity of Gujarat ever since the planned massacre of Muslims in 2002. The community has been treated like a pariah. Muslims have been forcibly driven out of their homes, have not been allowed to return, not given the land or the property appropriated by the goons and not even accommodated economically even after five years. When a Muslim taxi driver cannot ply a vehicle without changing his name, when his shop is boycotted because he is a Muslim and when the community has no space in the social milieu, there is nothing wrong in calling a spade a spade."

While I agree with you that the poor integration of Muslims and the birth rate differential are problems that need to be solved, demonization and increasing polarization will not produce any results other than gaining votes for the communalist demagogues.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
37
HappyRam/Minu,

>> It will be proper if Sir Gulam takes up with his American Country Men.

Whether Modi gets US visa or not is less important to me than whether your rants will continue to be as boring as they are.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
36
ReignOfTruth

>> Any viewpoint should be based on facts. Islam is not a religion which was transmitted verbally - rather everything was well written & documented. Inspite of that most people refuse to refer to religious books and go by hearsay

Things are not as simplistic as that. Even written text can be interpreted/understood in multiple ways and with a process of theological debate and attempts to find the rightful representation, a consensus will be evolved (enormous amount of research goes on even today on how to interpret the Quran/Bible/Vedas etc even though they are written texts). For example, someone can say that since Muhammad and Khalifs went on a wars on various nations and established rule of law based on submission to islam, the same should be done now ; Or since they killed those who criticized/insulted the prophet, the same should be done now; Or since they considered/taught that testimony of a woman in some cases is less valuable, the same should be done now etc (and think that there are reasons from texts why the same should be continued now). Some others may see a specific reason/context why the founders behaved in such manner and why it is not applicable in our context and so on.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
35
HappyRam/Minu,

>> Sachar report was submitted in Nov 2005 .
WHAT UPA RATHER CONGRESS DID to implement thE REPORT ?

Congress gets cold feet in face of BJP's constant threat to make political hay out of any attempts to help Muslims. It is BJP's dharma to oppose anything that benefits Muslims, using "secularism" as an excuse. In fact this is the only occasion when they suddenly become secularists!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
34
reignoftruth,

You contradict yourself from post to post and you need medical help. But then i think we all need the help after reading your gibberish. You say democracy is not suitable and majority should not decide which form of government should it be. So should the decision be left to be made by enlightened islamic scholars like you?
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 19, 2007 12:00 AM
33
The US was being very hypocritical in banning Modi, above and beyond the normal hypocrisy. The major US ally in West Asia, Saudia Arabia, outlaws the expression of any religion except Islam. And that includes books, places of worship, even private ceremonies.That hasn't prevented massive two way trade between the US and Saudi, almost all of it of course in the oil industry.Pakistan has never even pretended to be anything but an Islamic country, yet it was an "ally' of the US throughout the whole 'cold war'. Selective outrage/dipsleasure is really taken to new heights here.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 18, 2007 12:00 AM
32
Parbat/Ramdas/Sandhu/Abdullah/Thomas,

>> The German Jews were immensely tolerant and liberal.

The analogy is about the dynamics of intolerant majorityism, irrespective of whether the victims are Muslims, Jews, Afro-Americans or "Untouchables".
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 18, 2007 12:00 AM
31
Ashish Nandi's article is drivel barring his acceptance that Narendra Modi is a highly determined person. I just hope he stays put to such attitude for another twenty years which might help his party to expand it's base to territories where it has the least.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 18, 2007 12:00 AM
30
Somebody posted excerpts from Kuldip Nayyar article. I wonder what happened to all those candlelight marches that happened with much fanfare during the NDA rule. After the UPA came to power, there is no news of those marches. Apparently peace between India and Pakistan has been established and everything is sweet and rosy I guess.

Why not apply the same principle in Gujarat? Instead of whining about it, organize a candle light march there. For someone who established peace between India and Pak, restoring secularism in Gujarat will be a cakewalk. I am ready to contribute candles to the ten people who take Nayyar seriously.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 18, 2007 12:00 AM
29
According to Faruki, Modi is a fugitive. He would do well to look up a dictionary before throwing terms like these.

And Faruki has no compunction in supporting Manmohan Singh who harboured a real fugitive(Shibu Soren). He had him in his ministry when the minister went underground. Modi who is visible to everyone dayin and day out is a fugitive.

Hatred makes people turn into ninnyhammers.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 18, 2007 12:00 AM
28
Ganesan,

>> Modi who is visible to everyone day in and day out is a fugitive.

One may be a fugitive either by fleeing or by eluding justice by one ruse or another.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 18, 2007 12:00 AM
27
Excellent piece of writing.
pear
mumbai, India
Dec 18, 2007 12:00 AM
26
Ashish Nandy is obviously biased against Modi .I lived in Gujarat for over two decades and trust me if any indian can make a rational descision on political or commercial matters no one can do it better than a Gujarati, Nandy should try to find out why despite all the negative publicity. Modi gets -he still remains popular . It is disgusting that the English press has carried out a campaign of hate against Modi.
Anand Iyer
Bangalore, India
Dec 18, 2007 12:00 AM
25
@Vinod
".... Fugitives are those who ambush and kill people and avoid from being brought to justice.The Muslim terrorists are one example......"

Modi and his followers - more examples
How he has avoided & is still avoiding justice is very well known.


"....Soharabuddin was killed in a police encounter because he was a wanted man and on the way to become a fugitive..."

Ironically this statement is just a repeat of what people who unlawfully killed sohrabuddin are claiming.
Indian politicians and police are known to concoct stories to settle their scores.
Sometime back there was an encounter of a delhi businessman against whom the police had claimed similar things.

Hope some day you are not killed for being a fugitive !!!

ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 18, 2007 12:00 AM
24
@Vinod
".... Modi is a democratically elected chief minister of a state and he is accessible to people more than either Sonia Gandhi ....."

Being democratically elected does not wash away his crimes.
ReignOfTruth
Mumbai, India
Dec 18, 2007 12:00 AM
23
"Hope some day you are not killed for being a fugitive !!!"

Police encounter -chances are rare.Being killed by a Terrorist are very high for us - including you , me or any body.

Without any malice freind.

a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 18, 2007 12:00 AM
22
Gulaam:>>"eluding justice by one ruse or another".

having been sentenced to death in the court of 'your mind'.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 18, 2007 12:00 AM
21
In the name of clinical psychology, Ashis Nandi has packed so much pathological hatred for anything connected with Modi that the whole article is bloody hell.
Modi may not be as intelligent as Narasimha Rao. All the same, he drew Sonia Gandi into the vortex of Gujarati politics and gave her a bloody nose she will take a long time to bring back into its old Italian shape.
B.V.SHENOY
BANGALORE, India
Dec 18, 2007 12:00 AM
20

Narendra Modi can not be a neo-politician where neanderthal politicians are still in global politics.

The state politics in India do not reflect the politics at Centre. Eatch state has its own radical issues to address and act.

For example: In West Bengal, Communism versus Congressim(capitalism) --- though they don't follow the ideology any more. In Uttar Pradesh, Dalits and Non-dalits issues; in Kerala Majority (split Hindus) and equal minotrity (Muslims and Christians); In Andhra Pradesh, Andhra and Telengana; In Tamil Nadu, Dravidians lingual recognition and Aryans (though nothing exists now); In Kashmir, Muslims and Hindu minority - the story continues.

India may not have problems but politicians. Politicians across the world are hungry for issues and problems to rake them up and pretend to resolve them.

Also, Politicians and Media can not peacefully live if every thing (else) goes smoothly.

EOD, dogs -across the world- are all the same so are politicians.
Sasi KC
Reston, United States
Dec 18, 2007 12:00 AM
19
Mr Nandi

you are victim of your narrow profession, which has effectively disabled you, Mr Modi changed, but you could not.

The constructs you use to analyze human being is just insufficient, you need Indian psycho-analysts.

You have compulsion to maintain yourself as status quo and maintain your sanity and not being dangerous.

Modi is a leader who goes beyond your narrow constructs.

Stop being a tool in hands of anti-nationals!!
vimal
Munich, Germany
Dec 18, 2007 12:00 AM
18
Sasi KC,

USA had many political parties at regional level like India today and many of them have withered away during the civil war(1860's) when national issues converged with regional issues. I hope such is the requirement for Indian politics to get rid of the many regional parties plaguing indian soil. A national issue that can bring Indian politics to a national order. Maybe the issue will be Uniform civil code and there will be a fight between states which want it and those which don't want it and let's hope the truth wins this time too.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Dec 17, 2007 12:00 AM
17
"Modi's attitude to Muslims is understandable. His ideology, perhaps like all ideologies, has to set up a fall guy or anti-self."

German Jews of 75 years ago knew this attitude well.

"... there's more calculation in what he says: he says these things because his constituency loves it."

Trying to rouse a crowd by demanding the expediting of Afzal's death is perhaps as low as our politics will ever get.

"Gujarati middle class is at the moment having a love affair with hatred and paranoia." " In many ways it's a sick culture. K.P.S. Gill, no stranger to violence himself, once said there was no expiation, no guilt or shame in Gujarat about the violence in 2002."

Good observation. Excellent article.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 17, 2007 12:00 AM
16
All RSS pracharaks are brain-washed at a very young age. The RSS shakhas are no better than the terrorist madrasas run by mullahs. They teach them hatred for other religions, hatred for people who oppose them and teach militancy that include carrying sticks or "dandas" as they call them. They enroll lower caste Hindus at a very early age and make them brain-washed killers who would uphold status-quo of the hindu caste architecture. Modi is not just the only one.
Raj
Chicago, United States
Dec 17, 2007 12:00 AM
15
It seems that the media feels humiliated at Modi's success. He shows no interest in culvitating them, he ignores the criticisms heaped at him.

So the monkeys will continue to throw poo at Modi for five more years.
B Bhattacharyya
Morrisville, USA
Dec 17, 2007 12:00 AM
14
>> Narendra Modi, everyone forgets, is one of those who, like Mulayam Singh Yadav, Laloo Prasad Yadav, H.D. Deve Gowda and Mayawati, comes from previously marginalised social groups.

Except that Modi has never emphasized that fact, trying to divide society on caste lines. Yadav chieftains always boasted of their caste background, and spewed venom against upper castes for long time. Ditto for Mayawati, who went one up by coining colorful slogans as well, and Gowda always liked to point out that he was a humble farmer (though rolling in a few thousand crores).

It is of course left to the secular, liberal, progressive crowd to point out the caste of a person who has never bothered to make it an issue. No surprise, since these guys are also the ones who prefer to see people voting along caste lines, and are absolutely horrified if people vote as Hindus, instead of as members of a specific caste.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 17, 2007 12:00 AM
13
Not at all holding any brief for Modi or Hindutva, which are, as the author rightly points out, cloning themselves on all that is wrong with Islam and Christianity, I find the article frothily verbose. And comic.
Atul Chandra
mUMBAI, INDIA
Dec 17, 2007 12:00 AM
12
I think Mr Nandy is completely unethical and should probably be sued for violating the doctor-patient privilege

And his rants confirm that probably he is in need of CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST and he will will probably be diagnosed as Schizophrenic himself

I just looked at Psychitary 24x7 and cama across this :"People with schizophrenia suffer from problems with their thought processes. These lead to hallucinations, delusions, disordered thinking, and unusual speech or behaviour . "

And I think I can say that all this is clearly visible in this article . Did any of this make any sense to anybody.

Now only defence Mr Nandy has is that "I was misquoted" In that case Ms Reddy will probably qualify for Psychiatric evaluation

NOTHING OF THIS MAKES ANY SENSE
Sumit
Dehradun, India
Dec 17, 2007 12:00 AM
11
Ramesh (are you really Ramesh or Rahim?):

Modi is like Hitler?

Hitler did not believe in or practice democracy. Modi holds free elections.

Indian Muslims are like German Jews under Hitler?

Did German Jews burn people to death in Germany in the 1030s or act together with huge numbers of foreigners in terroristic attacks on the German state?

Did they demand and get the abrogation of key democratic values in Germany such as a Uniform Civil Code or free speeach?

No.

Germnan Jews were a highly pacific, hoghly civilised and valuable community in Germany. THAT was why a murderous ttotalitarian thug like Hitler hated them.

Modi is interested in the defence of the highly peaceful, easyy-going, tolerant-unless-brutally-provoked Hindu community against totalitarian Islamist expansionism.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Dec 17, 2007 12:00 AM
10
This crazy blatherer, almost beside himself with self-contradiction, is....a CLINICAL PSYCHLOGIST!!!!!

I pity his luckless patients.

He thinks Hindus should stay disunited and "folksy", nad those who urge them to defend themselves against those who are seeking to wipe them out...are suffering from "self-hate".

Well, if their "self" is such an ineffectual and suicidal one, it is about time it was hated, was it not?

How about some healthy self-hate from Nandi himself? Hatred of his mindless, feckless prosration before Islamist expansionism?

And notice his strange condemnation of Hindus striving to LEARN from Christianity and Islam...! Isn't that unreasonable hatred of those religions?

Why are Hindus banned from learning what it is these religions have to teach in terms of survival in the modern world?
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Dec 17, 2007 12:00 AM
9
Pure,unadulterated rubbish masquerading as profound political analysis.Physician,heal thyself.
Narendra Maganti
Hyderabad, India
Dec 17, 2007 12:00 AM
8
Faruki:

German Jews are the last community on earth than deserves be compared to Muslims.

The German Jews were a highly-pacific, highly-educated, intensely law-abiding and peaceful community, very small in numbers, which made a colossal intellectaul and economic contribution to Germany's success.

Hitler hated them, the violent totalitarin thug that he was, because his values were the opposite of their peace-loving ones.

Muslims all over the world are huge in numbers and known for their sympathy for Islamist expansionism. The latter takes the form of ruthless terrorist attacks and ethnic cleansing. In India Kashmiri Hindus have already long been expelled from the Kashmir Valley, and the process is underway in the districts of Assam and West Bengal bordering Islamist Bangladesh.

Evryone knows all this.

Everyone knows how ferociously anti-Semitic Islamist political outfits all over the world are, inclusing the US CAIR which you proudly support and whose officials have been jailed for collaborating with Islamist terrorists.

Come off it, Faruki !
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Dec 17, 2007 12:00 AM
7
There were several typos in my last posting. But its sense is clear enough.

I must get better spectacles !
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Dec 17, 2007 12:00 AM
6
Parbat writes:

>>I must get better spectacles !

How about right after better testicles?
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
Dec 17, 2007 12:00 AM
5
>> I think Mr Nandy is completely unethical and should probably be sued for violating the doctor-patient privilege.

Is Modi his patient?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 17, 2007 12:00 AM
4
Parbat/Ramdas/Sandhu/Abdullah/Thomas,

>> German Jews are the last community on earth than deserves be compared to Muslims.

Whenever the majority community is inflamed by a demagogue against a minority and pogroms are carried out, the analogy will hold.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 17, 2007 12:00 AM
3
Faruki:

Setting up a fall guy or anti-self:

Hindus throughout the history of Islam in India know this Islamist trait only too well.

The German Jews were immensely tolerant and liberal. Same as the Deobadis in India, eh, according to you?
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Dec 16, 2007 12:00 AM
2
"It is not an accident that the founding fathers of the RSS were mostly non-believers or weak believers."

Golwarkar was initiated by a direct disciple of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa. Some unbeliever that. Savarkar was an unbeliever but then he was not a founder of RSS. I dont know what he is talking about.

But then the entire article is a piece of crap-deserves to get published only in a magazine like Outlook.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 16, 2007 12:00 AM
1
"I do not consider Modi as dangerous and as invulnerable now as I did when I met him first. "

This is in the beginning. But then at the closing paras, he says this.

"His present incarnation, as part of the political mainstream, makes him less fearsome but more dangerous"

And this is another. In the beginning he says "He has changed in other ways as well—he is more polished, even more determined, but without that touch of desperation you see in many politicians of this kind. "

But then in closing he says this "There is always a touch of desperation about their attempts to hold on to power, a tendency to live at the margins of law and social decency"




So Modi is not dangerous but then more dangerous. And Modi is not desperate and yet he is desperate. And this guy is a clinical psychologist. I advise him to meet a colleague of his to get some treatment. Ashis Nandy badly needs it because his hatred for Modi is deprieving him of rational thinking. Dude, take some help.

Ganesan
Nj, USA
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