Counterpoint
Azadi: Theirs And Ours
By the logic of the Indian state, India is free and Kashmir is a part of India, ergo, Kashmir too, must be free. But Sanjay Kak’s documentary provides visual attestation for something diametrically opposed to this logic: the reality of occupation.

Sanjay Kak's new documentary Jashn-e-Azadi ("How we celebrate freedom") is aimed primarily at an Indian audience. This two-part film, 138 min long, explores what Kak calls the "sentiment", namely "azadi" (literally "freedom") driving the conflict in the India controlled part of Kashmir for the past 18 years. This sentiment is inchoate: it does not have a unified movement, a symbol, a flag, a map, a slogan, a leader or any one party associated with it. Sometimes it means full territorial independence, and sometimes it means other things. Yet it is real, with a reality that neither outright repression nor fitful persuasion from India has managed to dissipate for almost two decades. Howsoever unclear its political shape, Kashmiris know the emotional charge of azadi, its ability to keep alive in every Kashmiri heart a sense of struggle, of dissent, of hope. It is for Indians who do not know about this sentiment, or do not know how to react to it, that Kak has made his difficult, powerful film. And it is with Indian audiences that Kak has already had, and is likely to continue having, the most heated debate.

Between 1989 and 2007, nearly 100,000 people--soldiers and civilians, armed militants and unarmed citizens, Kashmiris and non-Kashmiris--lost their lives to the violence in Kashmir. 700,000 Indian military and paramilitary troops are stationed there, the largest such armed presence in what is supposedly peace time, anywhere in the world. Both residents of and visitors to Kashmir in recent years already know what Kak's film brings home to the viewer: how thoroughly militarized the Valley is, criss-crossed by barbed wire, littered with bunkers and sand-bags, dotted with men in uniform carrying guns, its roads bearing an unending stream of armoured vehicles up and down a landscape that used to be called, echoing the words of the Mughal Emperor Jehangir, Paradise on earth. Other places so mangled by a security apparatus as to make it impossible for life to proceed normally immediately come to mind: occupied Palestine, occupied Iraq.

Locals, especially young men, must produce identification at all the check-posts that punctuate the land, or during sudden and frequent operations described by the dreaded words "crackdown" and "cordon and search". Kak's camera shows us that even the most ordinary attempt to cross the city of Srinagar, or travel from one village to another is fraught with these security checks, as though the entire Valley were a gigantic airport terminal and every man were a threat to every other. As soldiers insultingly frisk folks for walking about in their own places, the expressions in their eyes--anger, fear, resignation, frustration, irritation, or just plain embarrassment--say it all. In one scene men are lined up, and some of them get their clothes pulled and their faces slapped while they are being searched. Somewhere beneath all these daily humiliations burns the unnamed sentiment: azadi.

One reason that there is no Indian tolerance for this word in the context of Kashmir is that the desire for "freedom" immediately implies that its opposite is the case: Kashmir is not free. By the logic of the Indian state, India is free and Kashmir is a part of India, ergo, Kashmir too, must be free. But Kak's images provide visual attestation for something diametrically opposed to this logic: the reality of occupation. Kashmir is occupied by Indian troops, somewhat like Palestine is by Israeli troops, and Iraq is by American and coalition troops. But wait, objects the Indian viewer. Palestinians are Muslims and Israelis are Jews; Iraqis are Iraqis and Americans are Americans--how are their dynamics comparable to the situation in Kashmir? Indians and Kashmiris are all Indian; Muslims and non-Muslims in Kashmir (or anywhere in India) are all Indian. Neither the criterion of nationality nor the criterion of religion is applicable to explain what it is that puts Indian troops and Kashmiri citizens on either side of a line of hostility. How can we speak of an "occupation" when there are no enemies, no foreigners and no outsiders in the picture at all? And if occupation makes no sense, then how can azadi make any sense?

Kak explained to an audience at a recent screening of his film in Boston (23/09) that he could only begin to approach the subject of his film, azadi, after he had made it past three barriers to understanding that stand in the way of an Indian mind trying to grasp what is going on in Kashmir. The first of these is secularism. Since India is a secular country, most Indians do not even begin to see how unrest in any part of the country could be explained using religion--that too what is, in the larger picture, a minority religion--as a valid ground for the political self-definition and self-determination of a community. The Valley of Kashmir is 95% Muslim. Does this mean that Kashmiris get to have their own nation? For most Indians, the answer is simply: No. Kashmiri Muslims are no more entitled to a separate nation than were the Sikhs who supported the idea of Khalistan in the 1980s. Such claims replay, for Indians, the worst memories of Partition in 1947, and bring back the ghost of Jinnah's two-nation theory to haunt India's secular polity and to threaten it from within. 

The second barrier to understanding, related to the struggle over secularism, is the flight of the Pandits, Kashmir's erstwhile 4% Hindu minority community, following violent incidents in 1990. 160,000 Pandits fled the Valley in that year's exodus, leaving behind homes, lands and jobs they have yet to recover. Today the Pandits live, if not in Indian and foreign cities, then in refugee settlements that have become semi-permanent, most notably in Jammu and Delhi. For Indians, even if they do little or nothing to rehabilitate Pandits into the Indian mainstream, the persecution of the Pandits at the hands of their fellow-Kashmiris, following the fault-lines of religious difference and the minority-majority divide, is a deeply alienating feature of Kashmir's conflict. Kashmir's Muslim leadership has consistently expressed regret for what happened to the Pandits in the first phase of the struggle for azadi, but it has not, on the other hand, made any serious effort to bring back the exiled Hindus either. In failing to ensure the safety of the Pandits, Kashmir has lost a vital connection with the Indian state--and, potentially, a source of legitimacy for its claim to an exceptional status as a sovereign entity.

The third major obstruction to India taking a sympathetic view of Kashmir is the problem of trans-national jihad. Throughout the 1990s, Kashmir's indigenous movements for azadi have received varying degrees of support, in the form of funds, arms, fighting men, and ideological solidarity, not only from the government of Pakistan, but also from Islamist forces all across Central Asia and the Middle East. The reality of Pakistani support, and the presence of foreign fighters, from an Indian perspective, damages the claim for azadi beyond repair.

Kashmiri exceptionalism in fact has an old history. Yet even if we do not want to go as far back as pre-modern and colonial times, then at the very least right from 1947, Kashmir has never really broken away completely like the parts of British India that became Pakistan, nor has it assimilated properly, like the other elements that formed the Indian republic. The status of Kashmir has always been uncertain, in free India. But with the involvement of pan-Asian or global Islamist players, starting with Pakistan but by no means limited to it, the past gives way to the present. 

India no longer deals with Kashmir as though it were still the place that was ruled by a Hindu king until 1947 and never fully came on board the Indian nation in the subsequent 50 years. It now looks upon Kashmir as the Indian end of the burning swath of Islamist insurgency that engulfs most of the region. In quelling azadi the Indian state sees itself as engaged in putting out the much larger fires of jihad that have breached the walls of the nation and entered into its most inflammable--because Muslim-majority--section. 

Secularism, the Pandits and jihad are all very real impediments to India actually being able to see what is equally real, namely, the Kashmiri longing for azadi. Kak explained to his viewers that to be able to portray azadi from the inside, he had to get through and past these barriers, to the place where Kashmiris inhabit their peculiar and tragic combination of resistance and vulnerability, their dream of a separate identity and their confrontation with an overwhelmingly powerful adversary. Their misery is palpable but they have yet to find a politics adequate to transform dissatisfaction into independence. Kashmiris do not agree on a singular meaning of the word "azadi". Meanwhile, in the face of brute oppression, they do not fully fight back, but they do not submit either.

Kak subtly captures their strangeness as a people: they recount how they lost sons and husbands to a random, ubiquitous and unforgiving violence, and, in the midst of gruesome narrations, offer the questioner tea. They walk among the dead, through lots covered with marked and unmarked graves, speaking of the departed in a weird idiom that mixes the language of martyrdom with the everydayness of life that must continue. Their poets, whether Muslim or Pandit, compose verses that in Kashmiri, Urdu or English carry the same unmistakable note of pain, even as they mirror a landscape of mountain lakes, blooming flowers and delicately-hued skies. (A few years ago Amar Kanwar's documentary Night of Prophecy also brought to Indian audiences the same poignancy of poetry written by Kashmiris that confronts torture, disappearance and death in a place of unearthly natural beauty). Their traditional entertainers, village bards and clowns, called "Pather Bhand", remember their patron, the medieval pir (Sufi saint) Zain ul Abidin, or Zain Shah, and tell tales of war and destitution with a mischievous light-heartedness that makes you cry instead of making you laugh. Women cover their heads but look at the camera with unnerving directness, insouciant, beleaguered but never submissive. These are a wry people, part defeated, part unconquerable.

Their breathtakingly beautiful land stands at the crossroads of East Asian, Central Asian and South Asian cultures. For centuries, different races, religions and ethnicities have trampled through Kashmir, subduing its people on their way. But the Kashmiri language bears little relationship to any other languages of Persia, India, Afghanistan, Tibet or China, its nearest neighbours. Kashmir has always kept its head down as the winds of history have blown over and across the mountains, turned inward in an isolation that feeds the desire for azadi but does not provide the political wherewithal, the canniness, to carve out a separate nation in a world where might makes right.

Here the Indian Army arrives, one Indian soldier to every 10 Kashmiris. Here the Indian tourists arrive, as Kak shows us, sledding in snowy Gulmarg, dressing up in "native" costume to have photographs taken in the Mughal Gardens of Srinagar, calling blood-spattered Kashmir a veritable Paradise. Here the sadhus in saffron robes arrive, on their way to the holy shrine at Amarnath, on their annual pilgrimage, invoking, in the same breath, the Hindu god Shiva and the Indian flag, the "tiranga" ("tri-colour"). You cannot take away what is ours, say these people. Ah, but you cannot keep what was never yours, either. India for Indians; Kashmir for Kashmiris: this is the fugitive logic that the filmmaker is seeking to make explicit.

Kak has set himself a nearly impossible task. He must take Indians with him, on his difficult journey, past their prejudices, past their suspicions, past their very real fears, into the nightmarish world of Kashmiri citizens, torn apart between the militants and the military, stuck with the after-effects of bombings, mine-blasts, crackdowns, arrests, encounter killings and disappearances that have gone on for nearly two decades without pause. 

I became interested in Kashmir at the same time, for the same reason, that Kak began his investigations: the trial of S.A.R. Geelani, accused and later acquitted in the December 13, 2001 Parliament Attack case. In 2005 I wrote a couple of articles about Geelani, a Kashmiri professor of Arabic and Persian Literature at Delhi University, for this and other Indian publications. These earned me denouncements as anti-national, self-hating, anti-Hindu, pro- Pakistani, crypto-Muslim, etc. One letter to the editor even called me a terrorist! Kak has already had a taste of this reaction since the release of Jashn-e-Azadi in March, and must expect more of it to be coming his way in the next few months, as his film is shown widely in India and abroad. In fact, he is sure to get more flak that I ever got, given he is a Kashmiri Pandit. 

Aggressively Hindu nationalist, right-wing Pandit groups find Kak's empathy for Kashmiri Muslim positions infuriating, a "betrayal" that enrages them much more than that of a merely (apparently) Hindu--non-Pandit--sympathizer like myself. But like Israeli refuseniks, there is reason to believe that now India too has its own nay-sayers, who cannot condone the presence of the Indian armed forces in Kashmir or the continued refusal of the Indian state to engage with Kashmiris on the question of azadi. Kak himself makes the comparison to Palestine by calling the azadi movement of the early 90s "Kashmir's Intifada".

What allows someone like me--born, raised and educated in India, secular, committed to the longevity and flourishing of the Indian nation in every sense--to get, as it were, the meaning, the reality, and the validity, of Kashmir's agonized search for azadi? Why do I not want my army to take or keep Kashmir by force, or my fellow-citizens to enjoy their annual vacations as unthinking, insensitive tourists, winter or summer? Why do abandoned Pandit homesteads affect me as much as charred Muslim houses, and why do I think that neither will be rebuilt and re-inhabited, nor will they be full of life as they once were, unless first and foremost, the military bunkers are taken down?

The answer comes from my own history, the history of India. If ever there was a people who ought to know what azadi is, and to value it, it is Indians. 60 years ago India attained its own azadi, long sought, hard fought, and bought at the price of a terrible, irreparable Partition. My parents were born in pre-Independence India, and to them and those of their generation, it is possible to recall a time before azadi. 

Kak's film incorporates video footage from the early 1990s, taken from sources he either cannot or will not reveal. In those images of Kashmiris protesting en masse on the streets of Srinagar, funeral processions of popular leaders, women lamenting the dead as martyrs in the path of azadi, terrorist training camps, the statements of torture victims about to breathe their last and BSF operations ending in the surrender of militants, the seething passions of nationalism come right at you from the screen, leaping from their context in Kashmir and connecting back to the mass movements of India's long struggle against British colonialism, from 1857 to 1947. No Indian viewer, in those moments of collective and euphoric protest against oppression, could fail to be moved, or to be reminded of how it was that we came to have something close to every Indian heart: our political freedom, our status as an independent nation, in charge of our own destiny. 

The irony is that azadi is not something we do not and cannot ever understand, but that it is something we know all about, intimately, from our own history. What frightens us is not the alien nature of the sentiment in every Kashmiri breast: what frightens is its familiarity, its echo of our own desire for nationhood that found its voice, albeit after great bloodshed, six decades ago.

The British and French invented modern democracy at home, but colonized the rest of the world. The Jews suffered the Holocaust, but Israel brutalizes Palestine. India blazed the way for the decolonization of dozens of Asian and African countries, and established itself as the world's largest democracy, yet it turns away from Kashmir and its quest for freedom, and worse, goes all out to crush the will of the Kashmiri people. Indians with a conscience--and perhaps Kak's film will help sensitize and educate many more, especially the young--ought not stand for this desecration of the very ground upon which our nationality rests. After all, we learnt two words together--"azadi" and "swaraj", freedom and self-rule--and on these foundations was our nation built.

We are a people who barely two generations ago not only fought for our own freedom--our leaders, Gandhi, Nehru, Ambedkar, and so many others, taught the whole of the colonized world how to speak the language of self-respect and sovereignty. We of all people should strive for a time when it will become possible for a Kashmiri to offer a visitor a cup of tea without rancour or irony, as a simple uncomplicated expression of the hospitality that comes naturally to those who belong to this culture. We should join the Kashmiris in their search for a city animated by commerce and conversation, not haunted by the ghosts of the dead and the fled. We should support them, whether they be Muslims or Hindus, in turning their grief, so visible in Kak's courageous work of witnessing, into a genuine "jashn", a celebration, of a freedom that has been too long in the coming. 

Anything less would make us lesser Indians.


Ananya Vajpeyi is a Fellow at the Nehru Memorial Museum and Library, New Delhi (2005-2008)

 
Daily Mail
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Aug 29, 2008 12:00 AM
189
Athar khan:>>"try to understand the rage in the valley. It is not about being anti Indian or pro pakistani or being a 'separatist'. It is about dignity, pride and a right to their future."

They have had many many elections to exercise their rights. The PoK-ians have not had that.

>>"The rights of Kashmiris, no matter how much consecutive governments at the centre stall it, is an issue that we have to first acknowledge, then address"

Do they want to become another nepal and end up under another prachanda? If Dhirendra had merged nepal with india, it would have become a proud switzerland of the south, by now.

You should strongly advise your compatriots in the valley to form a united kashmir-development party; the hindu pandits and the moslem artists together can achieve international recognition in art and culture. All kashmiris should cooperate in keeping out pak infiltrators, and conflict-prompters. Then, indian army presence in J&K can also be significantly reduced. You won't feel like an 'occuppied' state.

Instead, they have allowed the saudi-funded ISI to finance some fake leaders with fake notes, to create an artificial hindu-moslem divide, drive the pandits out and keep separatism alive, just to go on getting ISI inputs regularly.

If adam and eve committed the 'original sin', their progeny landing from Noah's arc in the mid-east has been 'root-cause' for the problems of the world today. If arabic islam invaded the world, arabian oil has now polluted the world atmoshpere. Spiritually speaking, bio-energy from carbohydrates is the 'swaahaa' type, good for the atmosphere, invokes the divine forces to assist mankind in growth and development; fossil-burnt hydro-carbon energy of the 'swadhaa' type invokes negative forces into the lives of the world, leading to selfishness and conflict.

'Al QuiDa', really stands for 'har swadhaa'; 'swa' and 'qa' are lettered very close in sans. Hence, 'swaabhaa', self-shining is mis-named as 'khaabaa'. Saudi is SouTeeya, meaning 'productive of evil'. World as a whole will benefit by going for non-fissile fuels, reducing power of the saudis, neo-capitalists of russia, argentina etc. Along with that, the powers of jislam and catho-churchianity will also be brought down. Homo-sapiens can be truly homogenized into a human globe with the spiritually divine values underlying all religions.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 28, 2008 12:00 AM
188
Bravo Ananya Vajpeyi!!!
i dont think most Indians understand or even try to understand the rage in the valley. It is not about being anti Indian or pro pakistani or being a 'separatist'. It is about dignity, pride and a right to their future. The rights of Kashmiris, no matter how much consecutive governments at the centre stall it, is an issue that we have to first acknowledge, then address. I wish my fellow countrymen would try and "get" it as you have tried to.
Athar Khan
Brighton, United Kingdom
Oct 24, 2007 12:00 AM
187
Blame it on the British!!!
K.V.Sadasivan
Bharuch, India
Oct 16, 2007 12:00 AM
186
Ganpat/Bagasi,

>> There is a interesting interview of Ayan Hirsi Ali on U Tube by Fareed Zakaria.

You brought this up three months ago. Are you getting senile? I have seen it, and it is a very good interview. But everything turns to dirt in your dirty hands.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 15, 2007 12:00 AM
185
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Many nations have tried to influence Islam and with no sucess, and I think that this project should be dropped.

Typically inane statement from this self-deluding "expert"!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 15, 2007 12:00 AM
184
Seshadri,

>> I would, however, appreciate it if the christians in India under sonia will form an honest 'christian national congress', with openly christian names, instead of hiding behind names for the sun, like raj, prakash, ravi, bhaskar etc., and sincerely oppose the honestly hindu party, the bjp. The islam-vote-banked leftists and casteist anti-brahmin dynastists among hindus will obviously constitute the third force in politics.

This from a learned professor!!! Sad.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 15, 2007 12:00 AM
183
MRF:>>"the trend in the World is now to dissolve borders and form large trading block entities shedding historical animosity and prejudices in favor of economic and commercial gains"

IN my opinion, sindh and punjab states of Pak should confederate with SAARC confederation, along with Afghanistan. All SAARC countries should jointly declare the need for peace and progress in south asia, without unnecesary talibanic terrorism. The armed forces of all these countries should jointly suppress the talibanic forces in Afghanistan and Pakistan's northwest, with assistance from US, UN. Further infiltration of such forces into Sindh and Punjab of Pak should also be avoided, Baluchistan given the option to join SAARC or Iran, while these states, as also ceylon, nepal and bhutan join mainstream India, as the 'new dawn', USHAS, union of subhimalayan asian states, in rapid socio-economic and technological development into the 21st century.
Jaffna should be made a separate city state and part of SAARC, called Ravana City, to develop as another Singapore for the Eelam enthusiasts. Bangladesh can reintegrate with Bengal, at their convenience. Dreams of an Old Fool, no doubt.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 15, 2007 12:00 AM
182
Ganpat:>>"I agree with you a to a large extent regarding Sonia Gandhi,s intentions"

Thank you. You can add to your list of her CMs, the crypto-churchians like Dharam singh in Karnataka and Gomango in Orissa [who voted unjustifiably in the lok-sabha to bring the vajpai govt down in ten days].

In fact, I have no problem with honest christians like Anthony or Sonia whose names indicate their religions clearly. Problems arise only when names do not reveal but conceal religion, tend to be higly sanskritized suggesting strong hindu affiliation, but concealing a convert, like 'abhishek' singhvi, 'ambika' soni, shiv-'raj' patil, vayalar 'ravi', 'raja'sekhar reddy and so on.

In europe, christmas is called 'sonnen-wende', the 'turn of the sun' festival, leading to the perception that sun-worship turned into christ-worship after Jesus. [aaditya-aalaya--> Italy]
Christ = krishTa, 'compressed' is appropriate name for the sun, constituted by the continual fusion of hydrogen atoms due to gravity, forming gold atoms which also travel with light to reach earth. Sun is also known as 'hiraNya-garbha' in sanskrit, justifying the popularity of names like soni and sonia among christians.

I have only the highest respect for the sun as the source of all spiritual and material prowess in our solar system and for Jesus as the jnaana-yoga respondent [gjnaana-skanda] in the spiritual pantheon of the cosmos. I would, however, appreciate it if the christians in India under sonia will form an honest 'christian national congress', with openly christian names, instead of hiding behind names for the sun, like raj, prakash, ravi, bhaskar etc., and sincerely oppose the honestly hindu party, the bjp. The islam-vote-banked leftists and casteist anti-brahmin dynastists among hindus will obviously
constitute the third force in politics. Some honest democratic dynamics can then determine the direction of national politics and economics.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 15, 2007 12:00 AM
181
Ganpat:>>"I would like to do right without being told, and not do what is told if it is not right."

You are right. Religion, without 'freedom' reduces it to slavery. Word 'religion' stands for 'hril-lajjaa', in sanskrit, meaning heartfelt modesty and humility before the Absolute, whatever the name you give it. Devout hindus recite the devee-maahaatmya during the current nava-raatri festival period. In those poems, you find it stated that 'lajjaa', sense of shame for doing bad things, is pre-requesite for peace of mind and progress of spirit. It leads further on to faith, understanding, excellence, achivements, charity and real satisfaction in life. Thus, the sense of shame for avoiding wrong-do's should come from within, not enforced externally. Kids are tuned early to such 'shame-sense' in good convent schools. External enforcement of modesty on women is unnecessary and atrocious, for any religion.
Even in christianity, nun-ship is allowed only when strong desire for abstinent spirituality is there in a girl. Otherwise, the girls who let their hair down and shoulders shine at 15, will themselves cover them modestly after 25. Real requirement on the world is that the masquiline mind learns to see women, not as objects pleasure, but as emblems of the cosmic mother- power which governs procreation and productivity at all levels.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 15, 2007 12:00 AM
180
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> For two years now he has been lectureing on the
subject of faith vs reason, and his views are
absolutely against Islam.

His views are against Islamo-fascism, but an idiot like you would not know the difference.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 15, 2007 12:00 AM
179
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> I have been watching interviews with Atan Hirsi
Ali on U Tube ... I think she has confirmed all that I have thought about Islam as a religion.

What you have thought is a reflection of your hatefulness and your small mind; she has a tale of woe to tell which is sincere but which can be easily exploited by her rightwing American handlers as well as by ill-motivated bigots like yourself.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 14, 2007 12:00 AM
178
MFR,

>> Muslims are its worst addicts being fully under its intoxicating and numbing spell. Going by this, it would follow that they cannot be trusted to make any informed., humane and the right choices for themselves and their societies; they have to be collectively put in a rehab for de-addiction from this virulent, rabid and dehumanizing ideology before one can proceed with granting them of the normal human rights and privileges enjoyed by the general mankind.

This is pure invective as well as hogwash. Are you trying to pass it off as a serious comment?

>> worst addicts being fully under its intoxicating and numbing spell.

This describes you. You are under the numbing spell of your hateful sycophancy.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 14, 2007 12:00 AM
177
Part 1 of 2
Somebody has rightly remarked in this forum that the author’s analysis of the situation is very narrow and only has emotional value. It seems to be a good setting to make an emotion packed romantic Bollywood movie like Occupied Kashmir-A Love Story (I presume that some Hindi Films on such lines exist already, but I am not sure of the details). On the other hand, it reflects the naivete, political correctness, emotional foolishness and extreme charitability of the mainstream Indian (read Hindu) commentators in line with the broad mindedness, tolerance and humanitarian values of the Indian (read Hindu) society which makes them produce and display such documentaries and analyses.

The anguish, sorrow and resentment of the indigenous Kashmiri (Muslim) population is an undeniable fact of life: It has however to be seen in its proper perspective. As most rightly proclaimed by Marx, religion is the opium of the masses. And if religion be the opium of the masses, then Muslims are its worst addicts being fully under its intoxicating and numbing spell. Going by this, it would follow that they cannot be trusted to make any informed., humane and the right choices for themselves and their societies; they have to be collectively put in a rehab for de-addiction from this virulent, rabid and dehumanizing ideology before one can proceed with granting them of the normal human rights and privileges enjoyed by the general mankind. One cannot ensure the universal human right of freedom of a drug addict, a mentally unstable person or a felon, and the Muslims in general could be said to classify under each of the three categories mentioned. Their personal freedom has to be curtailed in order to treat them to be fit to coexist with the rest of the mankind. It is a pity that such large portion of humanity has come to be afflicted with this disease.

Coming to the particular issue of Kashmir, we can reflect in principle as follows: The founders of Pakistan had promulgated and upheld the two nation theory stating that the two communities were distinct and diverse and hence could not coexist in a single nation, and had raised the demand for division of the motherland on a religious basis. In itself, such a demand is inherently intolerant, fascist and divisive (in keeping with the teachings of their religion). India, on its part does not conform and agree to this theory, and it has never accepted any decisions based on such a communal and divisive idea of its own free will. On the contrary, on its part, it has maintained that it is perfectly possible for all communities of Indian origin ( incl Hindus & Muslims) to coexist in Harmony with one another and has proceeded to give all its citizens equal rights and privileges as seen today. It is under the same arrangement that upwards of 15 crore Muslims live freely and equally in the Indian nation. Thus, India has not only accepted the principle of coexistence, but has put it into practice, compromising and sacrificing their communal vested interests in the larger interest to create an inclusive, humane, Fair and morally and politically correct socio-political order. As Indian believe and live upto secularism (equal rights and respect to all ), there remains no locus-standi for any demand by any religious group to claim for separation. It can be questioned that if around 14 crore Muslims can exist in rest of India without any such grievance, what is the problem for bloody 75 lakh odd Kashmiris over here? There is no moral or ideological underpinning whatsoever for any separatist demand.
End of Part 1 of 2
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Oct 14, 2007 12:00 AM
176
Part 2 of 2

Also, it can be easily demonstrated that the Kashmiri Muslims demand for Separation is a disastrous choice made by religiously crazed and unthinking Muslims as follows:
• The earlier experiment of separation on religious ground and its resulting nation Pakistan qualifies near to the worst as a failed nation state with no hope of welfare and upliftment of its citizens.
• There is no fairness, justice, democratic spirit of tolerance and fraternity (brotherhood) in the Pakistani Muslim society; its active discrimination against the more numerous East Pakistani citizens led to the breakup of the nation and to the formation of Bangladesh, the Indian Muslim migrants in Pakistan are still isolated away from the mainstream Pakistanis where they continue to be referred as Mohajirs and are intensely discriminated against, there is no democracy, people’s rule and welfare in pak occupied Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan areas which is essentially under Army rule and dictatorship.
• A strong desire is being witnessed in ordinary Pakis to take o India in a big way; People want to get medical treatment in India, Students want to pursue higher education in India, IT professionals and management professionals want to learn, work and gain experience in India, Singers want to sing in India, Actors from Film and TV want to act in India, writers and lyricists want to work in India, old cricketers want to become commentators on Indian TV channels and associate with games activities in India etc. and also now even blogsters want to post blogs on Indian fora such as this! If this be the case, then the raison d etre of Pakistan itself comes under a question mark rendering pointless the demand for secession of Kashmir.
• In this era of globalization, we are witnessing dissolution of borders and formation of large economic and trading blocks amongst geographically linked countries whose populations remained distinct and diverse throughout known history being ethnically, linguistically and culturally different from each other such as in United Europe. Thus when the trend in the World is now to dissolve borders and form large trading block entities shedding historical animosity and prejudices in favor of economic and commercial gains, any move for secession of a small portion of landlocked area does not make much sense. As India marches towards being a global economic superpower, it would be so much more worthwhile for the Kashmiris to stay within the Indian union and reap the benefits of the boom in the economy.

The above is my take on the issue of the demand of secession by the Kashmiri Muslims. And I reach to the same conclusion as I do always; there need to be extensive and far reaching reforms in the Muslims societies and mindsets after which I am sure that they would be able to think and decide in a more worldly wise manner as to how their interests could be served best.

End of Part 2 of 2
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Oct 14, 2007 12:00 AM
175
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> GF is quite insane.

Sometimes I think so myself. Why else would I waste my time answering an absolute idiot like yourself.

>> She hates the BJP, and by association the Hindu
community.

This is the level of your discourse!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
174
Seshadri,

>> His main aim seems to be the conversion of comments on any thread on this website into a hindu-moslem mud-sling competition.

Shows how little insight you have on the nature of your posts. When your posts draw an appropriate response, you are surprised!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
173
Ganpat:>>"GF.. just disrupting this forum"

I agree with you. His main aim seems to be the conversion of comments on any thread on this website into a hindu-moslem mud-sling competition. Quite unfortunate.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
172
Taqi:>>"We have a responsibility to our faith to do our bit to cleanse it of fanatical morons"

I wish more liberal moslems speak out like you.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
171
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Vulnerable women like Hirsi Ali have spoken up against Islam, putting their life on line.

Yes, but unlike you, they have something to say. There are far more books coming out, especially in the USA, by Islamic reformists. TV talks shows, especially on PBS and CSPAN, are full of such reformist Muslim academics, and the level of discussions is quite impressive and interesting. Quit unlike your drivel.

>> Dr Seshadri. Its amazeing cheek that GF accuses you of being a fanatic and a bigot.

Yes, but he is not as bad as you. He can often speak up for tolerance and understanding.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
170
Seshadri,

>> Lateral assaults without addressing the question only confirms my valid fears, which you call 'paranoia'.

If you think I am associated with Outlook, that is paranoia. All your theories of Sonia, the Chinese government, the Italian government etc etc being involved in a conspiracy to promote Christianity in India are also paranoia.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
169
Gulam:>>"Extremism plus paranoia are on exhibit here."

The crooked-ness of your journal and yourself are on exhibit here. Lateral assaults without addressing the question only confirms my valid fears, which you call 'paranoia'. But, time will tell the truth. If you still play such games after 12 years, you won't see the 24th.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
168
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> None of us Hindus in this forum would be considered fanatics.

The vast majority of posters are decent and sensible Indians. You are sick with hate and bigotry. You are obsessed with your anti-Muslim feelings to a point where you should seriously consider getting professional help.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
167
Taqi,

>> why are you justifying the acts of criminals in the name of Islam.

I have not done that. Why are you brown-nosing some of the worst bigots in this forum? Don't you have any shame?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
166
To Happy Ram ji.
This is just a casual observation of course. You mentioned that only one Muslim on this forum spoke against the 'Azad Kashmir' stuff. Yes I did and i believe it.Anyways, I think the only other Muslim besides me commenting on this article is Faruqi. Did I miss any name?
To Faruqi - arre, why do you come with inconsequential things like spelling oversights? Does it matter? Even with it,the gist of the message is clear.
Also, even when I addressed something specifically to 'J', you went in and put a comment against me. I was not even addressing you.
Finally, why are you justifying the acts of criminals in the name of Islam. Justifying a fault doubles it. Vote against it and do what you can to oppose it. We have a responsibility to our faith to do our bit to cleanse it of fanatical morons and to our fellow human beings to join hands with them and try to achieve it. The freedom of speech you are enjoying would have got a 'fatwa' for your head in Taliban Afghanistan. Get real and do not cover up for crooks.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
165
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> It is muslims who are recoganised as bigots.

There are Muslim bigots, Hindu bigots and Christian bigots, but you take the cake.

>> I have had my entire education in English schools and universities.

Your spelling bears testimony to that.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
164
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Most muslims are at the stage of animals.

This reflects more on you than on anyone else.

>> I have listened to a 2 hour talk by Tasleema Nasreen... I have seen many TV interviews with Ayan Hirsi Ali.

Your selectivity is based wholly on bigotry.

It is midnight in Denmark. Go to bed.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
163
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> I dont lie.

You lie again! I have openly caught you lying in this very forum at least 25 times.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
162
Ganpat Ram ji,
' I despise Islam and most Muslims' - now is,int that wrong?
I empathise that you have a grouse against many Muslims but if you despise the faith, are you not alienating even the sane and moderate people?
Should not the purpose of every right thinking person be to find ways to bridge differences rather than widen them?
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
161
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Sam Harris,s article was meant to be a support of Ayan Hirsi Ali, and a strong endictment of Islam. However you are so brainless and shameless, that you endorsed it without realiseing what you were doing.

You misread Yasmin's article too. I wish you would learn how to read.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
160
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> I admit I despise Islam and most muslims. GF should come out clean from his closet. He loves
traditioanl Islam and hates all opponents.
Just will not admit it- slimey devil.

This just shows that you have gutter origins. But we already knew that.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
159
Seshadri,

>> I hope it is NOT the policy of your editors on this journal only to make participants on these fora just needle oneanther, as hindus versus moslems, and waste their time, so that the churchian objectives of the Sonia governance proceeds, unhindered by any intellectual resistance from the perceptive citizens of this country, resident and non-resident.

Extremism plus paranoia are on exhibit here.

>> read the bible and the quran, along with the gita, to determine the best aspects for civilized behaviour, themselves, as committed citizens of the various countries of the world, without encouraging religion-based antagonisms.

I fully agree.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
158
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> I wonder whether you have really seen the interview with Hirsi Ali. She talks about the essence of Islam, and not about her growing up in Somalia.

Read her book. Your poor uptake is easy to understand in view of your depraved bigotry.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
157
Vinod:>>"What these smart Islamists are doing is blasting the bombs in such way that less damage and casualty happen when its done inside a mosque and make it more effective when done at other places where non Muslims are affected"

Avery significant point.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
156
Gulam:>>"See how I had to needle you just a little and your extremist and fanatic self shows up?"

It did not 'show up' any 'extremist or fanatic' element in me. It only showed that I can return 'needles' with sharper 'needles', that is all.

Anyway, I hope it is NOT the policy of your editors on this journal only to make participants on these fora just needle oneanther, as hindus versus moslems, and waste their time, so that the churchian objectives of the Sonia governance proceeds, unhindered by any intellectual resistance from the perceptive citizens of this country, resident and non-resident. If so, Rama who is also resident in India and the world, spiritually, will take care of it, as He has already done on the sethu-issue.

Besides, there is nothing wrong, basically, with hindus, moslems, christians having aacaaryas, mullahs, bishops for religious, cultural and spiritual guidance of the people of their respective religions who come to them for advice.aacaraNaat aaryah iti aacaaryah: a good aacaarya demonstrates how to work for achieving immortality of the souls, by his own example in life; 'muktim laaghavayati iti mullah', the mulla facilitates spiritual liberation for the souls under his guidance; 'bheetim kshapayati iti bhishapah' the bishop reduces the fear on spiritual future of the souls, assuring them of divine interest in human welfare and progress, materially and spiritually, by reading from the bible, 'vibheeliyam', 'vinaa bhayam eeSa-layam dadaati', provides for being absorbed into Jesus, without fear of negative forces operating under the satanic anti-christ [devout people even keep bible or bhagavat geeta or quran under their pillows while sleeping!].

Problems start only when spiritual, moral leadership, by example and counsel, degenerates into dictats and fatwas on followers to achieve material sectarian interests.

I read recently that a large number of mullas from all countries have written a joint letter to the Pope and other churchian leaders in all countries, suggesting they should cooperate, not conflict, to avoid the civilization war between the two religions, to join together to dominate jointly the followers of both religions!. In fact, huttingtonian war can be avoided, if only the lay christians and liberal moslems are left alone by their religious leadership, to read the bible and the quran, along with the gita, to determine best aspects for civilized behaviour, themselves as committed citizens of the various countries of the world, without encouraging religion-based antagonisms and conversion/jihad programs.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
155
azadi, 12-10-2k7, 150 am

Gulam:>>"See how I had to needle you just a little and your extremist and fanatic self shows up?"

It did not 'show up' any 'extremist or fanatic' element in me. It only showed that I can return 'needles' with sharper 'needles', that is all.

Anyway, I hope it is NOT the policy of your editors on this journal only to make participants on these fora just needle oneanther, as hindus versus moslems, and waste their time, so that the churchian objectives of the Sonia governance proceeds, unhindered by any intellectual resistance from the perceptive citizens of this country, resident and non-resident. If so, Rama who is also resident in India and the world, spiritually, will take care of it, as He has already done on the sethu-issue.

Besides, there is nothing wrong, basically, with hindus, moslems, christians having aacaaryas, mullahs, bishops for religious, cultural and spiritual guidance of the people of their respective religions who come to them for advice.'aacaraNaat aaryah iti aacaaryah': a good aacaarya demonstrates how to work for achieving immortality of the souls, by his own example in life; 'muktim laaghavayati iti mullah', the mulla facilitates spiritual liberation for the souls under his guidance; 'bheetim kshapayati iti bhishapah' the bishop reduces the fear on spiritual future of the souls, assuring them of divine interest in human welfare and progress, materially and spiritually, by reading from the bible, 'vibheeliyam', 'vinaa bhayam eeSa-layam dadaati', provides for being absorbed into Jesus, without fear of negative forces operating under the satanic anti-christ [devout people even keep bible or bhagavat geeta or quran under their pillows while sleeping!].

Problems start only when spiritual, moral leadership, by example and counsel, degenerates into dictats and fatwas on followers to achieve material sectarian interests.

I read recently that a large number of mullas from all countries have written a joint letter to the Pope and other churchian leaders in all countries, suggesting they should cooperate, not conflict, to avoid the civilization war between the two religions, but join together to dominate jointly the followers of both religions!. In fact, huttingtonian war can be avoided, if only the lay christians and liberal moslems are left alone by their religious leadership, to read the bible and the quran, along with the gita, to determine the best aspects for civilized behaviour, themselves, as committed citizens of the various countries of the world, without encouraging religion-based antagonisms and conversion/jihad programs.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
154
azadi, 12-10-2k7, 150 am

Gulam:>>"See how I had to needle you just a little and your extremist and fanatic self shows up?"

It did not 'show up' any 'extremist or fanatic' element in me. It only showed that I can return 'needles' with sharper 'needles', that is all.

Anyway, I hope it is NOT the policy of your editors on this journal only to make participants on these fora just needle oneanther, as hindus versus moslems, and waste their time, so that the churchian objectives of the Sonia governance proceeds, unhindered by any intellectual resistance from the perceptive citizens of this country, resident and non-resident. If so, Rama who is also resident in India and the world, spiritually, will take care of it, as He has already done on the sethu-issue.

Besides, there is nothing wrong, basically, with hindus, moslems, christians having aacaaryas, mullahs, bishops for religious, cultural and spiritual guidance of the people of their respective religions who come to them for advice.'aacaraNaat aaryah iti aacaaryah': a good aacaarya demonstrates how to work for achieving immortality of the souls, by his own example in life; 'muktim laaghavayati iti mullah', the mulla facilitates spiritual liberation for the souls under his guidance; 'bheetim kshapayati iti bhishapah' the bishop reduces the fear on spiritual future of the souls, assuring them of divine interest in human welfare and progress, materially and spiritually, by reading from the bible, 'vibheeliyam', 'vinaa bhayam eeSa-layam dadaati', provides for being absorbed into Jesus, without fear of negative forces operating under the satanic anti-christ [devout people even keep bible or bhagavat geeta or quran under their pillows while sleeping!].

Problems start only when spiritual, moral leadership, by example and counsel, degenerates into dictats and fatwas on followers to achieve material sectarian interests.

I read recently that a large number of mullas from all countries have written a joint letter to the Pope and other churchian leaders in all countries, suggesting they should cooperate, not conflict, to avoid the civilization war between the two religions, but join together to dominate jointly the followers of both religions!. In fact, huttingtonian war can be avoided, if only the lay christians and liberal moslems are left alone by their religious leadership, to read the bible and the quran, along with the gita, to determine the best aspects for civilized behaviour, themselves, as committed citizens of the various countries of the world, without encouraging religion-based antagonisms and conversion/jihad programs.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
153
azadi, 12-10-2k7, 150 am

Gulam:>>"See how I had to needle you just a little and your extremist and fanatic self shows up?"

It did not 'show up' any 'extremist or fanatic' element in me. It only showed that I can return 'needles' with sharper 'needles', that is all.

Anyway, I hope it is NOT the policy of your editors on this journal only to make participants on these fora just needle oneanther, as hindus versus moslems, and waste their time, so that the churchian objectives of the Sonia governance proceeds, unhindered by any intellectual resistance from the perceptive citizens of this country, resident and non-resident. If so, Rama who is also resident in India and the world, spiritually, will take care of it, as He has already done on the sethu-issue.

Besides, there is nothing wrong, basically, with hindus, moslems, christians having aacaaryas, mullahs, bishops for religious, cultural and spiritual guidance of the people of their respective religions who come to them for advice.'aacaraNaat aaryah iti aacaaryah': a good aacaarya demonstrates how to work for achieving immortality of the souls, by his own example in life; 'muktim laaghavayati iti mullah', the mulla facilitates spiritual liberation for the souls under his guidance; 'bheetim kshapayati iti bhishapah' the bishop reduces the fear on spiritual future of the souls, assuring them of divine interest in human welfare and progress, materially and spiritually, by reading from the bible, 'vibheeliyam', 'vinaa bhayam eeSa-layam dadaati', provides for being absorbed into Jesus, without fear of negative forces operating under the satanic anti-christ [devout people even keep bible or bhagavat geeta or quran under their pillows while sleeping!].

Problems start only when spiritual, moral leadership, by example and counsel, degenerates into dictats and fatwas on followers to achieve material sectarian interests.

I read recently that a large number of mullas from all countries have written a joint letter to the Pope and other churchian leaders in all countries, suggesting they should cooperate, not conflict, to avoid the civilization war between the two religions, but join together to dominate jointly the followers of both religions!. In fact, huttingtonian war can be avoided, if only the lay christians and liberal moslems are left alone by their religious leadership, to read the bible and the quran, along with the gita, to determine the best aspects for civilized behaviour, themselves, as committed citizens of the various countries of the world, without encouraging religion-based antagonisms and conversion/jihad programs.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 13, 2007 12:00 AM
152
To Ganpat Ram ji.
I do not recollect which of your posts I am replying to but....I have not heard Wafa Sultan so am not in a position to speak on it. As regards Taslima Nasreen, I 100% endorse her book, 'Lajja' condemming attacks on innocent Hindus in Bangla Desh after the incidents of Dec 6,1992 and believe that Muslims should,in the right spirit dismantle the 'Masjids' at Ayodhya, Kashi and Mathura and give it to the Hindus, and get equal land anywhere in India to reconstruct the 'Masjids'. As regards Ayaan Hirsi Ali, I had seen her interview here in the US and found her quite articulate. Her angst against female circumcision (I never knew such inhuman things existed), being forced to marry against her will,etc were genuine reasons for her to be upset. The way Islam comes into all this is that, I am sure, those who forced her into the above said they did it as part of religion which it is not and got her to vent her angst against Islam. Herein lies the problem - while many people commit many offences, they do it as individuals and do not claim to be saints or representing their faith.In the case of Muslim fundamentalists, they commit heinous crimes - from Aurangzeb to Zarqawi to Bin Laden to a million others and then pretend to be saints working for God and then you have idiots glorifying them and making Islam a 'hate' word. If right minded Muslims disassociated with the above named crooks and lived in peace and harmony with all, the line would be made clear. Just like Christians do not glorify but rather condemn Hitler and just like Hindus do not glorify but condemn Ravan, Muslims too should not glorify but condemn Bin Laden and not allow fundamentalists to commit crimes and say they are doing it in the name of religion and I honestly believe the start for all this must come from tightening the screws on the poison spewing 'madrassas'. Though I have never seen the inside of one, seeing their footage on TV - the 'Lal Masjid' in Pakistan being a case in point, gives me the goose pimples. I cannot imagine those students being polite, caring,understanding, etc. They look all set to create trouble and do not seem to have an iota of the live and let live attitude even remotely apparent.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Oct 12, 2007 12:00 AM
151
Parbat/Ramdas/Sandhu/Abdullah/Thomas,

>> you cannot claim to speak unctuously of secularism and support, as you do, ferociously Islamist parties like Hamas and Hizbollah.

First of all it is a deliberate lie to say that I support them. I criticized the fact that the Hamas government which was duly elected by the people was not recognised by the United States and by Israel. The excuse was that Hamas did not recognise the right of Israel to exist, forgetting that Israel has not only not recognised Palestinian rights, but actually destroyed Palestine, displacing its people and taking its land. And don't forget that during the last war, all of Lebanon, including Christians, rallied around Hezbollah. The kind of criticism you make of supporting Hamas was also made of anyone supporting the PLO, although the PLO is a secular organization. It is your blind support of American and Israeli neocolonialistic policies and their indiscriminate use of their firepower in the Middle East which is much more reprehensible.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 12, 2007 12:00 AM
150
Ghulam Faruki:

I pointed out a very simple and incontrovertible point: that you cannot claim to speak unctuously of secularism and support, as you do, ferociously Islamist parties like Hamas and Hizbollah.

You have no answer to that.

All you can come up with is the standard jihadi excuse: that Islamist extremism is merely the response to the "terrorism" of their enemies. Bin Laden could have put it no better.

So there you have the alleged "moderate Muslim" Ghulam Faruki, caught out in his Islamist colours for everyone to see.

No wonder you rage and spit vulgar abuse.

Your game of promoting Islamism under the cover of "secularism" is totally exposed.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Oct 12, 2007 12:00 AM
149
Seshadri,

>> If I would make a perfect mullah, I wonder what you will make, perhaps a Hitler or
Stalin or Chengis Khan, anyway a super-mullah, claiming to be non-mullah even despising mullahs!

See how I had to needle you just a little and your extremist and fanatic self shows up? As I have been saying, your assertions are immoderate and unbalanced.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 12, 2007 12:00 AM
148
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Hirsi Ali being supported by Salman Rushdie, and you trying to trivialise her.Please
note her rational arguments against Islam.

Only an idiot would say I ever trivialized Hirsi. She is honestly reporting her experiences of growing up as a girl in a backward African tribal society and is railing against some very backward restrictions against women, and I have been supporting her since even before she came to US. Whether one carries one's fight from outside or from within religion is one's choice. But why am I telling this to a dope like you?

>> I am proud to be on the side of Tasleema Nasreen.

But for the wrong reasons. Your sole motivation is your vicious enmity toward Islam.

>> Are you totally insensitive to the pails of shit piled on you every day.

Fighting bigots is a very worthwhile cause.

>> Why in hell is GF always writeing in this forum. There must be muslim sites where he
can meet fellow muslims.

Apartheidist to the core!

>> For every verse on peace there are ten urgeing war.

More proof of your being a retard and a liar.

>> There is a time comeing when muslims will be simply barred from many western countries.


If idiots like you could prophesy, Islam would have been finished long ago. Your hatred for Muslims is like a sickness, a galloping fever. You should take better care of your mental health.

>> The moderates are silent and cowered.
Ninnies. Wear skirts and cry.

I said that when I was talking to someone less bigotted than you. A moron blinded by hate like yourself would come up with a stupid answer like you did. You are real slime.

>> Its not me but people like GF who should be ashamed.

What a load of execrable balderdash!

>> Your (Varun's) views and mine are shared by hundreds of millions of people in the nonmuslim world.

Trying to form your own hate group in this forum!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 12, 2007 12:00 AM
147
Gulam:>>"With your kind of extremist views, you would make a perfect mullah."

You have called my view extremist, without even reading the clear justification for it that follows. If I would make a perfect mullah, I wonder what you will make, perhaps a Hitler or
Stalin or Chengis Khan, anyway a super-mullah, claiming to be non-mullah even despising mullahs!. At least, regular mullahs admit they are mullahs, unlike you. Good for the world that you are just a moslem journalist in the US, not some leader in some moslem country. Zia ul Huq or Osama bin Laden cannot match your fanaticism for islamic religious freedom for unconstrained jihad on the rest of the world. Any one with opposite views is self-righteous, to be ignored or destroyed. This kind of islam, as 'religion of peace', will only lead the world to the peace of the graveyard, all over the world. If you are an example for a socalled liberal moslem, I shudder to think of how the others would be!. May Allah save the world from the likes of you!.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 12, 2007 12:00 AM
146
To Ganpat Ram ji.
I did not quite get it when you said you did not agree with me on religion and probably because I have not been following the threads consistently.
What I write is what I believe.I am a die hard Indian and a practicing Muslim (but one who practices his faith alone) and see no incompatibility at all. India being a Hindu country, naturally a vast majority of my friends and even some relatives are Hindus.They respect us and we respect them.That,s all there is to it.Agreed we are all made differently - we look different, have different DNAs, voices, etc but there is the common most important part of all of us is the thinking mind and if we use it without pre conceived notions of ' Heaven is the birth right of one community', ' I am right no matter what' ,etc, we will be permenantly embroiled in time consuming and hate generating activities but if we learn to respect other viewpoints and they respect ours, things will be so much better for all. Of course, national integrity, hatred and action against terrorism, secular education,...these are all given and every right thinking person whether Hindu,Muslim, Sikh, AGNOSTIC (joking dear friend) will agree.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Oct 12, 2007 12:00 AM
145
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> you are a far more honest and decent person then GF.

But you remain a liar and a hate merchant.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 12, 2007 12:00 AM
144
>> If their comments are directed toward Indians, you can expect them to be far more nasty, vicious and snide than if they are directed toward Westerners.

Any examples?

>> no comment made whatsoever if the issue is terror in Kashmir.

What could they say? Muslims and Hindus suffer equally at the hands of Kashmiri terrorists. Terrorists need to be killed, not verbally assaulted.

>> if it is criticism of a dissident, more vicious within the group than if among non-Moslems.

Dissidents do get seen as traitors in conflict situations irrespective of who the parties are. Sad but true.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 12, 2007 12:00 AM
143


First of all, it is not really "peace", but submission to the will of God( even if that means mass killing) and second, Moslems do put on different faces depending on the audience. If their comments are directed toward Indians, you can expect them to be far more nasty, vicious and snide than if they are directed toward Westerners. Alternatively, there is no comment made whatsoever if the issue is terror in Kashmir. Or if it is criticism of a dissident, more vicious within the group than if among non-Moslems.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 12, 2007 12:00 AM
142
Varun,

>> but they will also put on airs about Islam as a religion of peace for the benefit of Westerners and a few Indians.

Why do you post such baloney. Muslims have been saying that for 1400 years, even the word is derived from salam which means peace. Muslims are involved in many bloody conflicts, and some of them are terrorists, but the vast bulk of world's Muslim population see their religion to be a religion of peace. To say that they are doing it for the benefit of Western and Indian audience is just asinine. You want to join in the fray with your buddy Ganpat, but it seems you are hard put to find something significant to say. You might as well post a litany such as, "Muslims are bad, Muslims are bad, Muslims are bad". How simplistic can you get?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 12, 2007 12:00 AM
141
For those readers who are interested in carrying this discussion further, there is a blog dealing with the actual film at this website: kashmirfilm.wordpress.com I have put in my few words defending India and the Indian democratic, federal nation-state, in response to some commentators displaying sympathy for the Kashmiri 'cause'. There's also a particularly nasty Kashmiri blogger who justifies jihad and Azadi( and hence extreme violence) with what appears to be sophisticated arguments. He has to be responded to. Give it a look-see, folks!
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 12, 2007 12:00 AM
140
Ganpat's observation about the two- faced quality of Moslems is very valid. It comes out most, from an Indian vantage point, on a couple of issues. We all know that Moslems are viciously abusing Tasleema Nasreen and Salman Rushdie , but they will also put on airs about Islam as a religion of peace for the benefit of Westerners and a few Indians. The same for Kashmir.Moslems will not condemn the violence in Kashmir-some will even glorify it-but they will call Islam a religion of peace, and accuse others of having stereotypes of Islam being violent and intolerant.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 12, 2007 12:00 AM
139
Faruqi,
I am not gorveling. I am only stating it in context.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Oct 12, 2007 12:00 AM
138
Taqi,

>> You have in me an Indian as Indian as any other.

No true Indian has to grovel to prove his Indianness.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 12, 2007 12:00 AM
137
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> For all your devotion to Islam and the prophet,
when push comes to shove ....

Another totally irrelevant and inane post from this bigot. Doesn't he realize that he has already posted the same gibberish more times than one would care to count?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
136
Thank you 'J' from Bangalore, for your kind words.
You have in me an Indian as Indian as any other.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
135
"I dont hate you- Just dislike and contempt is what I feel."

"'Must please you no end!

Duet is pleasent .Congratulations and good night !
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
134
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Muslims are getting repaid in the same coin, all over the world.

Must please you no end!

>> Of cource the three ex muslim women have something to say.

Unlike you, who just repeats the same dumb despicable messages ad infinitum. Boring!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
133
Shenoy,

>> they have become instant knights in shining secular armour and the whole secular brigade has taken them to their bosom!

Politics is politics, both for the secularists and for the communalists.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
132
Seshadri,

>> I am almost fully convinced that 'secular' in india's political circles means 'moslem-supported pak-oriented anti-hindu' parties.

With your kind of extremist views, you would make a perfect mullah.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
131
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> In reading blogs where eg Tasleema Nasreen is discussed one find all muslims condemn her in the
foulest possible manner.

In all the Muslim publications I read, letter writers condemned the recent attack on her in Hyderabad. I have supported her attacks on those who ill-treat women and those Bangladeshis who oppressed Hindus. However your taking up her cause without the slightest understanding of it is sheer partisanship in the service of your hate agenda. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
130
Parbat/Ramdas/Sindhu/Abdullah/Thomas,

>> supporting virulwent Islamist parties like Hizbollah and Hamas.
>> For you, though, secularism means attacking Hindu parties while backing flagrantly Islamist parties like Hamas and Hizbollah.

You are the shameless supporter of the worst kind of terrorism in the world, the one that causes parties like Hamas and Hizbollah to spring up. Your ignorance equals your unethicality, but I doubt that either can be helped.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
129
Gulam: Incidentally, it is my opinion that politics and culture in karnataka, the most intellectual and humanistic state of India, ['chaamundi hill' becoming more powerful in IT now than 'silicon valley' of California], Karnaataka, [karuNaam naaTayati iti karNaaTakah, a state known as the high activator of humanistic compassion], is being held to ransom by the unncessary antagonism between the saivaite lingaayats and vaishnavaite hokkaligas, both devout hindus only.

They should both understand the following: "hindoh saaswata-dharmasya sivah seersham, haris tu hrid, samyogaat anayoh Saktih tushTaa pushTi-pradaayinee, deSa-roopo naaraayaNo kaala-roopa-Sivasya hrid, deSotthitaa viushNu-maayaa kaale nrityam karoti saa", meaning: for the eternal sanaatana dharma of the hindus, Siva is like the head and Vishnu the heart; only when they both are worshipped together and equally and without conflict, the cosmic mother power, Shakti, [sister of vishnu, wife of siva], chaamundi on the mysore hill, will be pleased and bless the state of karnataka with prosperity. In fact, science-wise, viswam vishnuh, naaraayana represents space, Siva as kaalakaala represents time, in the space-time-causated continuum, referred to as 'desa-kaala-kalana' by aadi Sankara. Spiritual power/material energy, the two-fold cosmic mother power emerges as hydrogen atoms from empty space and gets gravity-contracted into stars, planets etc., causing universal manifestation and life-operations in space and time. If only the saivaite lingayats and vaishnavaite hokkaligas of karnataka can appreciate the above and become mutually friendly worshippers of mother chaamundee, they could all unite under the bjp and avoid support to the crooked 'seculars' like Gauda. Moslems can have their own separate Tippu party for their own political representation, instead of supporting Gauda-like OBC-casteist hindus as votebanks. I hope Divine Mother Chaamundee on the hill will give wisdom to kannada hindus and moslems, during the ramzan-cum-durga-pooja, dasara, festival period, coinciding this year.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
128
Gulam: Lord buddha was called 'gauthama'. Gautva in sanskrit means cow-like behaviour, living for others, like the cow eating only kitchen waste and grass, but giving milk good for babies also. 'gauthama' stood for 'gautve uttama', the best among the cowlike people living for others, as the buddha who created the greatest spiritualist religion for humanity, was. Unfortunately, the gaudas of karnataka and gaunders of tamilnadu have started using 'da' instead of 'tha' in their names, standing for 'gautvam damayati', suppressors of cowlike behaviour, selfish and oppressive on others, in general. Exceptions, proving the rule, have been there, like late bharat ratna, C.Subramaniam, and the great Mr Kumaramangalam of Salem. Perhaps, the gaudas and gaunders should starting calling themselves as 'gautama's, like the buddha. Then they might become really deva-like in behaviour, instead of devil-likes of kumarasami's father, despite deva in his name..
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
127
Ghulam Faruki, You wrote, "But if an avid communalist opposes the BJP, he is still a communalist, not a secular."

You are so utterly wrong and out of touch with the Indian (pseudo)secularism. Remember Shankar Sinh Vaghela, the former RSS chaddiwala? Remember Sanjay Nirupam, the fire spewing Sonia Hater? The moment they started hating the BJP/Shiv Sena, they have become instant knights in shining secular armour and the whole secular brigade has taken them to their bosom!
B.V.SHENOY
BANGALORE, India
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
126
Gulam: If you have friends among the hussais and haniffas of Bangalore, you should advise them to form an honest moslem party there and stand for elections there themselves, instead of supporting selfish devilish OBC hindu people like Gauda. They should call it 'Tippu-Sultan Nationalist Islamic party of karnataka. Tippu died fighting the brittish as an Indian first, without compromising with them to save his own sultanate. If a Tppu party is formed by nationist moslems, hindus will also vote for them! It will also prove that there are moslems in India who are indians first, moslems next, with more commitment to india than to Pakisthan.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
125
Gulam:>>"Seshadri,>> If UNO considers India seriously for permanent seat in security council, our islamophile parties in India may themselves oppose it saying pak should get there first!" This sounds like a blatant lie. Do you have any concrete substantiation ?"

I am almost fully convinced that 'secular' in india's political circles means 'moslem-supported pak-oriented anti-hindu' parties. Look at the Janata Dal {secular]. After Devil Gauda and his sons, the next visible leader there are moslems as secretaries etc. One moslem Ali is now talking, after Gauda and Kumarasami have been tired out, regretting keeping the assembly alive will only benefit BJP by horse-trading.

In the last election, in karnataka, BJP came out as largest party with over 75 seats. In a democracy, the largest party should have been asked to form govt with support of independants etc. But Sonia's churchian congress put the conversionist Dharam singh, islam-pak-oriented JD[s] joined their govt, with blessings of devil gauda. But some residual hinduism left in kumarasamy [his mom is a devoted hindu going to temples while his dad has sold his soul to asura-beeja islam] made him revolt and form an alliance with BJP with himself as CM. Gauda and his islamic secretaries went along, since they had succeeded in inverting democracy in India, putting the leader with smallest following in power! Clearly, indian islamic seculars do not like the democracy which india has, but pak does not! The 'concrete substantiation' you wanted. After 20 months, they expected that the churchian congress will support kumarasamy to continue the 'secular' govt, but churchian seculars were cleverer, they brought president's rule, so that sonia could rule karnataka from Delhi! The moslem leader behind JD[S] is now vocal, afraid that the 'live' assembly may bring BJP back to power, if committed hindus in JD[s} decide to break way and join BJP [like what happened in Bihar, despite ravan-vilas paswan asking for a moslem CM there]. Another concrtete sustantiation, for you! Perhaps, the hindu lady who is president wanted to give this a chance, by keeping assembly alive, despite immdiate-election-advice from sonia. Rama rules india, whether Sonia, Karunanidhi and Gauda like it on not!

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
124
Ghulam Faruki:

"Secularism should ideally (?!) mean opposition to all communal parties."

So intone you.

For you, though, secularism means attacking Hindu parties while backing flagrantly Islamist parties like Hamas and Hizbollah.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
123
Ghulam faruki:

For you to call for real secualrism while steadily supporting virulwent Islamist parties like Hizbollah and Hamas is as absurd as a crocodile calling for real vegetarianism.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
122
>> Finally an admission of the true nature of secularism in India.

Effort should go toward achieving authentic secularism rather than chucking the concept.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
121
>> Secularism should ideally mean opposition to all communal parties

Agree completely with your post. You are essentially espousing the Bundy logic.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
120
"Secularism has come to mean opposition to BJP."

Finally an admission of the true nature of secularism in India.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
119
>> opposition to BJP is a necessary condition for entry in the secular club, it is by no means sufficient.

No. Opposition to BJP is neither necessary nor sufficient. Secularism has come to mean opposition to BJP. Secularism should ideally mean opposition to all communal parties. But if an avid communalist opposes the BJP, he is still a communalist, not a secular.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
118
>> Nowhere does that say that people who are clearly communalist are secular.

Fair enough. What you are suggesting is that while opposition to BJP is a necessary condition for entry in the secular club, it is by no means sufficient. Agree on that. A certain amount of deceit and deviousness is also required, so that the dupliticiousness can be disguised under a facade of liberalism.

Note that many of these parties have been in long and close association with the mainstream secular forces. Also, this association has not been opportunistic that parties indulge in to break political impasse, like the one between BJP and DMK, or between BJP and JD(S). It is more ideological, akin to BJP and Shiv Sena. In fact, the instances where such alliances have come under strain is when the mainstream parties have not been considered to be "secular" enough, e.g., when Congress was seen flirting with soft Hindutva.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
117
>> "Secularism in today's India basically means opposing BJP's communalsim as manifested in election strategies based on religious divisiveness, and its general anti-Muslim and anti-Christian stance."

Nowhere does that say that people who are clearly communalist are secular.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
116
>> Anyone who calls them "secular" is stupid

Per the definition of "secular" offered by you,

"Secularism in today's India basically means opposing BJP's communalsim as manifested in election strategies based on religious divisiveness, and its general anti-Muslim and anti-Christian stance."

they are secular. I shall refrain from taking names though.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
115
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> The three muslim critics of Islam are Dr Sultan, Ayan Hirsi Ali, and Tasleema Nasreen.

You have repeated this upto a point of utter boredom. They have important things to say, but for you to hang on to their apron strings as if you have found something solid to legitimize your blind hatred is just stupid. You are so tiresome.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
114
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> The so called moderate muslims are in fact serveing Islamic interests, by acting as an alibi.

For vicious enemies of Islam like yourself, moderates and liberals are a threat to your evil agenda.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 11, 2007 12:00 AM
113
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> This honorofic title (secular) is given to even the worst communalist like Oweissi,s in Hyderabad, the Shahi Imam from the Jama Masjid in Delhi, Mullah Mulayam Singh ....

Anyone who calls them "secular" is stupid.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 10, 2007 12:00 AM
112
"" would suggest your seeing the interview with Dr
Wafa Sultan - a psychologist originally from
Syria but resident in USA for the last 17 years.
Its available on U Tube""

Baba ji

Thanks .I will surely see the interview. I concede and accept many of your observations specially wrt India.

Meanwhile have a look what is happening in such a beautiful hilly areaes of FATA and NWFP.The people of these provinces were the most Loyal and friendlies people of the World .

Where the JEHAD HAS BROUGHT THEM ?

"The dilemma in Fata

ONE of the major issues in the war in Fata today is the question of collateral damage. Since Sunday, nearly 200 people have been killed, including 50 civilians among them women and children. Cold-blooded as it sounds, there can be no war without collateral damage. In a conventional war between two states, each side is free to heap blame on the enemy for civilian casualties. But a guerilla war has problems of its own. If the guerillas happen to be on foreign soil, problems of conscience are still there but manageable. However, where one is fighting against a highly motivated and bigoted guerilla force on one’s own soil, the fighting gets mixed up with a number of political, moral and ethical issues that defy an easy solution. The government is caught on the horns of a dilemma. If it does not take military action, or does so half-heartedly, it is accused of kowtowing to the religious extremists. If it raises force level, and there are civilian casualties, it is accused of human rights violations.

What is forgotten is that over the years Fata has emerged as a safe haven for militants, not just the home-grown variety but also foreigners who have penetrated this region. If the air strikes by the security forces kill civilians, the vast majority of the victims of suicide bombings by the Taliban are civilians, too (not that there is a moral equivalence between the two). In spite of the constant increase in troop level — from an initial 50,000 to nearly 100,000 now — the Taliban have not been weakened and are showing renewed vigour. The ‘deals’ said to have been negotiated with them have failed to produce results. The most serious development is that some of the security personnel seem to be succumbing to propaganda, or perhaps just criticism, that they are killing fellow Pakistanis.

Let us accept it: the Fata situation is inextricably linked to the war in Afghanistan. There can be no local Fata peace without there being normality across the Durand Line. As British Foreign Secretary Des Browne said recently the Taliban cannot be wished away. Ultimately, there has to be a broad peace agreement, whose principal characters — Islamabad and Kabul — must agree to work jointly to sort the problem out. But let this not be misinterpreted by the militants as a sign of weakness. For such an interpretation has emboldened them in the past and led to the sort of situation that exists today. It is time Islamabad probed the possibility of getting in touch with the Taliban’s moderate wing, if there is any, and developed a modus vivendi. The government has to keep its nerve in dealing firmly with the militants as it explores ways and means to move towards a negotiated settlement. Neither the carrot nor the stick will be able to deliver peace on its own.""
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Oct 10, 2007 12:00 AM
111
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Her forthright rejection of Islam is on the same lines as that of many Hindus in this forum.

This is a pretty old story and you have already repeated it many times. All religions have dissidents and apostates. Read Dawkins on
Christianity, or Periyar on Hinduism. Your lovefest with Islamic apostates tells us a lot about yourself!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 10, 2007 12:00 AM
110
Parbat/Ramdas/Sandhu/Abdullah/Thomas,

>> Islamism, for whose forces you endlessly root against your free homeland, the US.

Lying seems to come very naturally to you. I oppose Islamism, and you know it. I support what is best in America, unlike an asslicker like you.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 10, 2007 12:00 AM
109
Ghulam Faruki:

The real 900 pound gorrilla in the drawing room, tearing off the heads of decent freedom-loving people, is Islamism, for whose forces you endlessly root against your free homeland, the US.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Oct 10, 2007 12:00 AM
108
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Yasmin in her article has said so.

Yasmin is very critical of the bad apples who give a bad name to the Muslim community. To you she seems to be talking about all Muslims! I am not surprised!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 10, 2007 12:00 AM
107
Chanakya,

>> They should be brave enough to call themselves anti-Hindutvavaadis.

Should the Hindutvadis call themselves anti-Abrahamists?

>> why do these people support the 900 pound gorillas?

If this forum was truly representative of the political reality in India, it would yield the absurd ratio of parivaris to seculars of 25:1.

>> they try to justify terrorist attacks on innocents by quoting a few perceived injustices.

Terrorist actions cannot be justified by anything. However speculating about the possible causes of terrorism should not be taboo, even if such speculations are often wrong.

>> If the same thing had occurred in Gujarat, the secularists would have been out in full force baying for Modi's blood.

For obvious reasons. Secularist vigilance would naturally be different in West Bengal and Gujarat. Calling that "double standards" is to miss the point.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 10, 2007 12:00 AM
106
J KLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

"Now communists after realizing their mistake are trying appropriate Bhagat Singh and Subhash Chandra Bose for themselves."

Don't repeat rss propaganda. a few days ago one of the rss supremo announced that bhagat singh was an arya samaaji hence belongs to rss. You idiot read some books for a change, instead of wallowing in rss propaganda. It is your two faced leaders who have no shame in appropriating Ambedkar and Gandhi at times. They talk about swadeshi what were they doing when swadeshi andolan was carried out. Probably licking the feets of british.

For your info, your only one and only one freedom fightter savarkar was an athiest. Go Figure !
sanjay misra
Tumkur, India
Oct 10, 2007 12:00 AM
105
Ghulam: "But the battle is a political battle between Hindutvadis and non-Hindutvadis"

Then these people should not call themselves "secularists" either formally or informally. They should be brave enough to call themselves anti-Hindutvavaadis. But then they are scared that they may lose the Hindu vote.

"The 900 pound gorillas in the room are Advani and Modi and their rath yatras!"

How did Advani and Modi become the 900 pound gorillas? As much as Advani & Modi have themselves to blame for this, the secularists too are to blame.

Look at the posters on this forum. I would tend to believe that most of them are educated, have good jobs and are generally having a good standard of living. So, why do these people support the 900 pound gorillas?

The secularists, with their double standards, are doing more harm to the country than the 900 pound gorillas. They are selective in their criticism of minority communalism, they try to justify terrorist attacks on innocents by quoting a few perceived injustices.

Case in point is the Rizwanur case in Kolkata. If the same thing had occurred in Gujarat, the secularists would have been out in full force baying for Modi's blood. But because it happened in "secular Kolkata" no one looks at it as a Hindu-Muslim issue (despite best efforts from Barkha Dutt to do so in her program We The People).

One chap slapped around by police in Gujarat has the secular media writing about how Muslims are ill-treated there. But if a few muslims are bumped off in Nandigram, there are no slogans "atrocities on Muslims" slogans.

Karunanidhi called Lord Ram a "drunkard". No reaction from the seculars. If Modi or Togadia called Mohammed a paedophile or Jesus a bastard, would the secular lobby have kept quiet?

Your quote can actually read:""But the battle is a political battle between Hindutvadis and anti-Hindus"
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Oct 10, 2007 12:00 AM
104
Seshadri,

>> If UNO considers India seriously for permanent seat in security council, our islamophile parties in India may themselves oppose it saying pak should get there first!

This sounds like a blatant lie. Do you have any concrete substantiation?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 10, 2007 12:00 AM
103
Gurav:>>"if political parties looked beyond short term electoral gains"

That happens to be a very big 'if' with most of our present political parties, with the solitary exception of the PM who is a non-politician statesman. With considerable finesse, he has managed to get India recognized as a significant non-proliferator and hence fit for entry into the world's nuclear-energy club, even without signing the nonprolif-treaty. . While the congress gives lip-support for it, while concentrating on the Rahul-coronation program, the marxists are interpreting it as yielding to US imperialism on India! Pak and Saudis have only some lobbies and senators pleading their case in Washington, but, here in India, whole parties are operating as pak lobbies, seeing their islamic votebanks as an extended pak in India. If UNO considers India seriously for permanent seat in security council, our islamophile parties in India may themselves oppose it saying pak should get there first!. When Prakash Karat opposes MMSingh's nuclear-energy deal, BJP should be expected to support the govt, saying they will not allow the govt to fall on an issue crucially beneficial to the country's economy. But, another 'Bhaskar' Javadekar in the BJP opposes the deal even more aggressively!. Anything to bring the govt down ?, or, have crypto-churchians infiltrated into the BJP also, in key spokesman-positions? I sometimes feel like praying for Jesus denying his grace to the crypto-christians in India, while Skanda turns Sikander to destroy them! Political power-greed and religious trickery have reached intolerable levels in our country!
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 10, 2007 12:00 AM
102
Kashmir to India should not primarily be about Islamis fundamentalism or terrorism - the establishment treats it the same as any other insurgency, i.e. an issue of the territorial integrity of the Union of India. And that is the correct position. Kashmir is Indian territory, period, end of discussion. Whatever ideological explanation the insurgents use to justify their "struggle" is immaterial - it is Maosim in Jharkhand and Andhra, Tribal Rights in the North East and Islam/Kashmiriyat in Kashmir. The state does not care and should not care. Kashmir has been very fotunate to have benefited from an emotional attachment from JL Nehru that led to Article 370. Kashmiris, misguided by external instigation, have abused the good faith shown by Nehru and adopted this idea of "azadi". Kashmiri freedom is a romantic pipe dream, as the state would not be viable, and be vulnerable to turmoil, exploitation and instability in much the same way as the other misbegotten experiment called Pakistan. No Indian strategic planner can allow the same mistake twice. The legal position is muddied over the previous two generations, but if political parties looked beyond short term electoral gains they would realize that the Tibet model is the only way to go to fix this mess. When the "wishes of the ashmiri People" is chanted as a slogan at Indo-Pak summits, no one really means it. The Kashmiri people are victims of their own day dreams, and the faster they wake up to reality the better it will be for them. I can guarantee that India will never give up its claim over Kashmir or any part of it. The issue of Islamic terrorism in our country or its neighborhood has nothing to do with India's Kashmir policy. Its only a matter of political will.
Gaurav
Miami, United States
Oct 10, 2007 12:00 AM
101
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> There is nothing more hillarious and baffling at the same time, when you say that your adverseries are ignorant and bigoted.

Not all my adversaries. Just you and a couple of other bigots.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 09, 2007 12:00 AM
100
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Do muslims in Europe love France, Britain. If
they do then they have a strange way of showing it.

How many of them have you talked to? Or do you know only those that the media highlight?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 09, 2007 12:00 AM
99
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> My entire value system on human rights, position of women in society, art, and culture is completely opposed to that of most muslims-unless they are nonpracticeing ones.

You do not have any positions on those issues to speak of. The only positions you have is on how to spread anti-Muslim hatred, and how to look down on Indians in general.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 09, 2007 12:00 AM
98
""There is the stigma for India in the international arena because we are considered to be breaking human rights and so forth.""

Baba ji

Human Rightswalas closed their shop on 9 \ 11 .A few ones remain orphaned though Dady USA has abondened them .Dady now has realised after the Big knock that Terrorists are better dispesed with Missiles or through Encounters.Gill Formula has a bright International Market value.

2 Regarding Kashmir & its costs to India-

a) Pakistan is on verge of breaking into five new Nations.It is held together forcibly by USA Army stationed in Pak Bases.

Where as India is still have vice like grip on Kashmir and world supports us .

b) Regarding Muslims of Kashmir in revolt -let us see how long more they take to realise that they are doomed if they don't leave the Path of Confrontation with India.

c) If we yeild to Kashmiri Muslims then then the flood gates of secession will open in Inda as Muslims and other Minorities will ask for their own seperate Countires.
Time to change boundries is over now.

MUST REMEMBER NOTHING HAPPENED TO CHINA FOR SUBJUGATING \ CRUSHING TIBETIAN RACE .

2 Pakistan is slowly becoming bankrupt like USSR by competeing with India in Arms race.

Pak economy is an AID Economy.How long USA with its own economic curve going down will be able to save Pakistan from drowning ??

3 Pak itself wants to get out of Islamic jehadies grip but there is no hope now left for it unless Pakistan Army undertakes mass liquidation \ killings of terrorists. Lamasjid has made it crystal clear that Muslim jehadies are not feeling shy to take a stand against National Armies.

Being a Muslim Army -Pak fauj is reluctant to fight Muslim terrorists.But there is no other metohd to stop Jehadies .

However in the past Pak Fauj did kill 15 lacs of Bangalies in Bangladesh.Majority of killed were Muslims.

Intersting part is NOT A SINGLE MUSLIM COUNTRY OF THE WORLD RAISED IT VOICE AGAINST BANGALI MUSLIM GENICIDE.

EVEN INDIAN MUSLIMS SO VOCAL OTHERWISE REMAINED SILENT ! Our Muslim clergy then and even now is just Fraud and self-serving.So are the Muslim Intelectuals and Muslim Leaders of India.They don't have the moral courage to criticise Muslim jehadies .But for Gujrat they don't have such moral reservations.

This is nothing but moral bankruptcy and dishonesty on their part as they are failing to take a stand against Muslim Jehadies who are killing Indians and harming their Madre-Watan.

Can they explain as to how ISI sabotuers and killers are sheltered and provided shelter in Muslim Mohallas ?? Has their stand to get POTA repealed helped Muslims or harmed them more ?? Are Muslims more safe in Hyderabad and other cities after POTA and abolishiment of anti -terror squads ?? They can mumble some moral words like 'due process of law'.But these words or such homelies are unable to save us from bullets of the Jehadiesin the past & in future .These sweet words did not save us in Mumbai Train Blasts or Malegaon or Hyderabad 1 & 2 or other numerous blasts .

That is why I call Muslim Leaders , Clergy and Intelligentia dishonest .
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Oct 09, 2007 12:00 AM
97
Ms. Vajpeyi makes a nakedly emotional appeal for Indian empathy towards Kashmiri desire for Azadi without really answering her own questions about the 3 very real barriers to such empathy, namely the exodus of the Pandits, the overtly religious roots of the Kashmiri Jihad and external Islamic fundametalist meddling. In the face of these barriers, I do not see any way to feeling anything but a brute obstinacy towards Kashmiris crying out for their Azadi. Azadi from what? and for what purpose? For another Talibanized failed state in our neighborhood for future Indian generations to deal with? Creating another mountain refuge for Al Qaeda? Ms Vajpeyi seems to argue that if the Kashmiris want to commit mass suicide, it is only their legitimate right as a people. Personally, I feel that if the Kashmiris do wish to commit mass suicide, better the Indian state to assist them in this endeavor than Osama or Musharraf. I would resettle kashmir with non-Kashmiri Indians in a replica of the aggressive Chinese integration of Tibet. Build transport links and resettle every part of the Kashmir valley to reduce natives to a minority. The Dal lake can overflow with blood but the idea of Kashmiri Azadi will never be accepted by any Indian.
Gaurav
Miami, United States
Oct 09, 2007 12:00 AM
96
Here is a call to all ye faithfuls.
All YOU Ganpat Rams, Sheshadris, Al Bundis, Vinods, J's, Anindyas. Wake up. Leave aside the Farukis. They are harmless. We Hindus don't believe them. Muslims anyway don't read them. Then, why bother about flies fixated on jihad etc?
Ananya Vajapayee and her ilk are the most dangerous. Understand their modus operandi for what it is. Sanjay Kak and before him Pankaj Mishra as also this Ananya Vajapayee- these so called secular, left-liberal intellectuals should be recognised for what they really are: anti-national, pseudo secular pseudo intellectual traitors being funded by the Vatican and the American church through Amnesty Interantional and a host of NGOs out to undermine the unity, integrity and nationhood of this great country. Beware of these fifth columnists and crypto-jihadis. May India be strong and united to defeat these traitors' designs.
B.V.SHENOY
BANGALORE, India
Oct 09, 2007 12:00 AM
95
>> "Because I say so!"

Don't flatter yourself. It's due to the "Bundy rule".
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 09, 2007 12:00 AM
94
>> Pseudo-secularist is more apt.

"Because I say so!"
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 09, 2007 12:00 AM
93
>> The 900 pound gorillas in the room are Advani and Modi and their rath yatras!

Not yet. Hopefully one day.

>> By the way the term "secularists"

Pseudo-secularist is more apt.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 09, 2007 12:00 AM
92
perfectly put , J!
radesh rangarajan
chennai, India
Oct 09, 2007 12:00 AM
91
very narrow analysis of the situation.Only has emotional value
suresh
Mississauga, Canada
Oct 09, 2007 12:00 AM
90
Anindya chatterjee: in full agreement with your posting.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 08, 2007 12:00 AM
89
It has become fashionable for ultra liberals to compare foreign occupation of sovereign countries with India's dealings against terrorist actions in its own state, J&K. The idea that J&K does not have much in common with Indian culture and civilization is ridiculous. Pandit Nehru's answer to such accusions are worth repeating. I sincerely hope the author would do some research and get her doubts cleared by the eduride Nehru's comments:

http://www.hindu.com/20...es/2007100855930900.htm


Thanks.
Prasad
Lake Forest, USA
Oct 08, 2007 12:00 AM
88
Chanakya,

>> Seculars cease to be seculars if they do not speak up on every communal issue.

In a battle of idealisms, yes! But the battle is a political battle between Hindutvadis and non-Hindutvadis. The 900 pound gorillas in the room are Advani and Modi and their rath yatras! By the way the term "secularists" is a simple and informal way of grouping together Congressis, Communists, Socialists and other liberals who disagree with the philosophy and the tactics of the parivar.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 08, 2007 12:00 AM
87
>> Secularism in today's India basically means opposing BJP's communalsim

Precisely. This is a definition given by the seculars for themselves, and right thinking people rightly call it pseudo-secularism.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 08, 2007 12:00 AM
86
This might sound very very cynical, but I'm just being pragmatic here: the modern nation-state is dead. Except in airports, national identities are mostly meaningless. In world cities like Singapore, Hong Kong and so on, you'll find more non-locals than locals. There are more Polish speakers in Ireland than Irish speakers. Sydney has more Jerusalem-born people than Jerusalem itself. British tax-law has an immediate discernable impact on the Singaporean housing market.

What this Indian passport-holder, then, doesn't understand about Kashmir is this: why bother fighting for an identity that will be blurred anyway, when your efforts can be better spent fighting _real problems_? You have a problem with the army on the streets, fight it. Gherao, strike, dharna. Dislike the way tourists from the plains treat you? Disbar them, educate them, make your own rules.

The average Kashmiri may have unexpressed, confused feelings about azaadi, but the average 'mainstream' Indian is even more confused. You've seen him daily, but he's hardly seen you. You didn't lose his support with ethnic-cleansing, militant Islam or secularism, you lost it when you started fighting against him, and not the Establishment. That is the elephant in the room that this article was trying to picturize, but swerved and missed completely.
Akshay
Hyderabad, India
Oct 08, 2007 12:00 AM
85
Ghulam, you say: "Do seculars cease to be secular if they do not speak up on every issue of communalism? Do Modi and Thackaray have to join every anti-Muslim cause? If they miss joining any anti-Muslim cause, do they become "pseudo-communalists".

Simply put - Yes. Seculars cease to be seculars if they do not speak up on every communal issue - especially when it is anti-Muslim.

If Modi and Thackeray do not join in on one anti-Muslim issue out of say, 10, then that does not make them pseudo-communalists.

But if seculars like Teesta and Shabana and Akhtar join in on every anti-Hindu issue but keep silent on every anti-Muslim issue, then that makes them pseudo secularists or selective secularists.

However in India the definitions are different - if a person speaks up once against Muslims, he is branded as a communalist for life. But if a person speaks up once against Modi or Thackeray, he is given a "Secular Ratna" award for life - as long as he does not speak up against Muslims, ofcourse.
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Oct 08, 2007 12:00 AM
84
Ananya Vajpeyi

1.Why an ordinary Indian cannot buy and hold land in Kashmir?
2.Why Jammu and Kashmir has separate parliament, flag and constitution within Union of India?
3.Why democratic governments of Jammu and Kashmir will never bring and resettle pandits with compensation, since they are hindus?
4.Why Vaishno Devi and Amarnath pilgrims are attacked and killed frequently?
5.Why terrorists are killing tourists from other parts of India visiting the state by lobbying grenades and opening gunfire?
6.Why Sheikh Abdullah and Nehru connived and imprisoned and poisoned Shyama Prasad Mookerjee in Srinagar jail?
6.Why Nehru referred to UN referendum while Hari Singh wanted to join Union of India in 1948?
7.Why Nehru acceded to blackmail of Sheikh Abdullah and granted article 370 to the state?
8.Why parliament attack convict Afjal guru is not hanged and Farooq Abdullah threatened the Govt. of India?
9.Why our soldiers need to be in the state. Is it not because of the free hand given to terrorists by all state governments since 1989?

DO NOT CONFUSE READERS WITH YOU DELIBERATE SMOKY STAND ON ISSUES OF NATIONAL SECURITY. IF KASMIR GOES, INDIA WILL DISINTEGRATE. THAT IS WHAT ISI WANTS - BLEED INDIA THROUGH THOUSAND CUTS - EVER SINCE BANGLADESH WAS CUT OUT OF THEM IN 1971.
Anindya Chatterjee
Dubai, U.A.E.
Oct 08, 2007 12:00 AM
83
The OUTLOOK readers should draw their own conclusion as to why Kak and his ardent admirer, Ananya Bajpayee are out on a vicious campaign to malign India as a colonial power, subjugating the Kashmiris against their will.
They, like the rest of India, should remember that the so called Azadi movement started late, (in the early 90's, whereas, the so called Indian occupation began in 1947)and died an early and too predictable death, having run out of fire of freedom and also support from, of all places, England and America.

What Ananya has cleverly, rather too cleverly, hidden from her readers is the fact that the Kashmiris are poor fighters, lack real fire and depend pathetically on unreliable support from Pakistan, UK and the US and also from Amnesty and also Indian fifth columnists like Kak and Ananya Bajpayee.
B.V.SHENOY
BANGALORE, India
Oct 08, 2007 12:00 AM
82
>> Then for those people, please list out instances where they have criticized instances of minority communalism.

Secularism in today's India basically means opposing BJP's communalsim as manifested in election strategies based on religious divisiveness, and its general anti-Muslim and anti-Christian stance. The focus is on the communalism of the majority as practised by a major political party. People have criticized communalist statements or acts of minority communalists like Owaisi or Imam Bukhari, but the thrust of secular politicians is against the Hindutva ideology. Would this pass a "pure secularism" test? No more than Advani being able to pass a VHP devised Hindutva test.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 08, 2007 12:00 AM
81
>> You jump from seculars who criticize Hindu religious practises to seculars who fail to criticize minority communalism!

I think I have detailed it several times, only you have always failed to answer it, and tried to change the topic. So, here, I shall detail it for you.

I shall be grateful if you can try to identify some people whom you call secular. Then for those people, please list out instances where they have criticized instances of minority communalism. That's it.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 08, 2007 12:00 AM
80
>> record of criticizing minority communalism with the same zeal and vigour that they reserve for majority communalism.

You jump from seculars who criticize Hindu religious practises to seculars who fail to criticize minority communalism! You seem to be throwing darts in all different directions in order to pin secularism one way or another. Define it as something like saintliness, then proclaim that no one meets the standard!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 08, 2007 12:00 AM
79


All Kashmiri Pandits suffer from one or multiple neuro-psychiatric problems: study

Problem due to being uprooted from an illustrious historical relevance, says Dr. Bali


http://www.hindu.com/20...es/2007100852580300.htm
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 08, 2007 12:00 AM
78
>> But these are precisely the kind of "seculars" that you usually quote...

Just to set the record straight, I am not implying that you are agreeing with all their views, or that you can't post their writings here. I also don't agree with a lot of things written by people I post here. Just want to point out that the so called seculars are really scumbags on Chinese payroll.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 08, 2007 12:00 AM
77
>> I dissociate myself from such "seculars"

But these are precisely the kind of "seculars" that you usually quote (the saldwr and countercurrents variety). In their more extreme moments they might begin putting down their dislike of Hinduism and its practices in words. At all other times though, they ensure their selectiveness in choosing the communalism to be criticized.

Few days back I had challenged you to show me any of these leading light seculars who has a long and consistent record of criticizing minority communalism with the same zeal and vigour that they reserve for majority communalism. As expected, you couldn't come up with a single name.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 08, 2007 12:00 AM
76
Dear Ananya,

Sorry to use a cliche, but I am genuinely at a loss of words to express my joyous yet cathartic emotions on reading your wonderful article. At this moment, I am reminded of my master Albert Camu who warned us of every reolutionary eventually turning into a tyrant. Perhap, Indian nation has only proved him right like many others also have.

The fight for Kashmiri freedom must go on. In that, I am with you and with each and every Kashmiri. Let me know if there is any way to contribute towards conflict resolution, towards building and making every Indian aware of Kashmiri dissent leaning on that unconquerable Kashmiriyat.
Akshaya
Pune, India
Oct 08, 2007 12:00 AM
75
Bhagat Singh: An Athiest and A Communist !II
It encourages individuals to think about society and develop their own personality," explains Vijayam, who calls god a "beautiful falsehood created by society which had no answers. That's why we have so many gods. A god fitting every whim. God is a concept, not reality." Atheists take on godmen, faith healers, astrologers and cranks of every stripe with a vengeance. One organisation in Kolkata, the Science and Rationalists' Association of India, has a Rs2,00,000 prize for any person performing a miracle. Godmen and astrologers have often taken the challenge, but have fallen flat each time. Atheists also encourage parents to adopt secular names for children. Sometimes the practice leads to comic results. Vijayam talks about a boy whom parents named 'Olos'-he was born in 1984, the year of the Los Angeles Olympics. Contrary to conservative claims, India has had a tradition of atheism going back to yore. Even in the Ramayana, there is mention of a sage named Jabali who educated Rama and his brothers about atheism. However, the tradition was suppressed. Books were burnt and rationalists persecuted. But modern India has had many eminent atheists, the great Bengali reformer Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar being the most prominent of them. Vijayam says there are "four pillars" of the atheist movement that took off in the years leading up to and following Independence: Periyar, the statesman; M N Roy, the revolutionary; Gora, the reformer; Abraham Kovoor, the rationalist. "We atheists are happy people," Vijayam says. "And we want us all to be happy. And here, on earth."
sanjay misra
Tumkur, India
Oct 08, 2007 12:00 AM
74
Bhagat Singh: An Athiest and A Communist !I

http://timesofindia.ind...articleshow/2435854.cms

Knockin' off heaven's door
7 Oct 2007, 0136 hrs IST,Agniva Banerjee,TNN
In October 1930, five months before he was hanged, Bhagat Singh wrote in his prison diary the essay Why I am an Atheist . He wrote the pamphlet to counter accusations by fellow radicals that vanity had led him to deny the existence of an almighty, explaining that revolutionary principles were the basis of his credo. In 2007, the centenary year of his birth, while there is renewed interest in Bhagat Singh, who was "not just a passionate freedom fighter... but a widely read intellectual inspired by the writings of Marx, Lenin, Bertrand Russell and Victor Hugo"-as veteran journalist Kuldip Nayar's commemorative book Without Fear describes him-a few pious men, such as RSS sarsanghchalak K S Sudarshan, remain stubborn in their disbelief that the country's most iconic martyr to the freedom struggle did not believe in god. In the week leading to September 28, Bhagat Singh's birthday, Sudarshan said at Khatkar Kalan, where the revolutionary was born, that Bhagat Singh is being projected as an atheist, "but he used to read the Gita. He was not an atheist". This is a distortion of Bhagat Singh's legacy by an entity he would no doubt have abhorred. But this drive to appropriate him also attests to the relevance of the martyr's principles, among them atheism, which staunch adherents believe is the future creed of India. "The whole world is moving towards a post-religious society. Religion is a fashion now, not a commitment," says G Vijayam, executive director, Atheist Centre, Vijayawada, which was founded in 1940 by the freedom fighter Gora-Vijayam's father. "Earlier, religion used to control politics. Now, politics uses religion"-an assertion validated by the examples of Jinnah and Veer Savarkar, who despite being atheists, ended up with the religious Right when it came to the power game. Realpolitik doesn't spare even Leftist and progressive politicians, who are reluctant to publicly declare their atheism, K Karunanidhi being a notable exception. "Religion is an instrument of social control. The rich pretend to be religious. The poor actually are. But people are clever. They notice change. They see it's the police who guard the temples today. So they know god is incompetent and impotent. For he cannot safeguard his own property." Six 'world atheist conferences' have been held at the Vijayawada centre, the first in 1972. "The Vatican knows our strength. It wants dialogue with the international atheist movement," Vijayam says. Across the country there are an estimated 200 atheist organisations, their common plank being the fight against superstition, combating witchcraft and sorcery, banishing caste, promoting science exhibitions, fostering environmental consciousness, building secular culture and imparting sex education. Most lack influence, but some, like the Satara-based Maharashtra Anti-superstition Committee, are big organisations; MAC has 180 branches throughout the state. Recently, it realised a long held objective when it influenced the state assembly to pass the Bill for the Eradication of Superstition and Black Magic.But its chairman, N Dhabolkar, is less optimistic about atheism's future in the country than Vijayam, who was ebullient after a key verdict on Thursday by the Hyderabad high court sentencing 19 to life imprisonment for burning alive five people for sorcery. "We prevailed upon the government to write in the FIR, 'murdered in the name of witchcraft', a point they had initially overlooked. It's a major victory for us." Atheism in India is not limited to a polemical denial of the existence of god. It is more about scientific inquiry."Atheism is a scientific outlook based upon reality.
sanjay misra
Tumkur, India
Oct 08, 2007 12:00 AM
73
>> I do not agree that the hindus and buddheists of jammu and ladhaak should be allowed to suffer, being swamped by the jihadis infitrating into kashmir with the connivance of the separatist-minded police of J&K, just to please psuedo-seculars like you in far off chennai, objecting to the religion based partition of India, in principle, which you could not stop anyway.

These are ideas of a surrender monkey willing to give away Kashmir Valley. India's borders do not stop at Laddhak or Jammu. They officially stop at PoK and practically at LoC. Any move that dilutes this stand is idiotic. If my stand is pseudo-secular, then I suggest that yours (whatever it is) happens to be abhorrent to India's territorial integrity.
vijay
Chennai, India
Oct 08, 2007 12:00 AM
72
>> Lot of these seculars however ..... which often extends to criticizing Hindu beliefs and practices.

I dissociate myself from such "seculars".
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 07, 2007 12:00 AM
71
>> A secular person is heavily prejudiced against communalists

So far the only prejudice I have seen from your category of seculars is against a certain form of communalism. It's also not surprising that you fail to see that.

>> Or do I see tactics to divert attention from an anti-BJP argument

Raising anti-BJP argument is perfectly valid for its political opponents. Lot of these seculars however lack the intellectual honesty to admit that their talk in favour of values like secularism, pluralism and liberalism is actually a hate-BJP agenda, which often extends to criticizing Hindu beliefs and practices. As far as I am concerned, these are Chinese paid scumbags.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 07, 2007 12:00 AM
70
Chanakya,

>> Shabana or Akhtar or you do not have to jump into every anti-Modi, anti-Hindutva argument to prove your secular credentials.

The point was the opposite of what you are saying. Do seculars cease to be secular if they do not speak up on every issue of communalism? Do Modi and Thackaray have to join every anti-Muslim cause? If they miss joining any anti-Muslim cause, do they become "pseudo-communalists".
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 07, 2007 12:00 AM
69
Vijay:>>" stand verbalized repeatedly by the PM that there can be no change in borders whatsoever."

I am not suggesting any change in borders. Only let those people and areas of J&K, who are emotionally ready to integrate fully with India, do so with 370 made inapplicable there. I do not agree that the hindus and buddheists of jammu and ladhaak should be allowed to suffer, being swamped by the jihadis infitrating into kashmir with the connivance of the separatist-minded police of J&K, just to please psuedo-seculars like you in far off chennai, objecting to the religion based partition of India, in principle, which you could not stop anyway. [Rajaji from chennai approved of it, if it would hasten the independance.]

In fact, article 370 for J&K is essentially a religious emotion-culture-based partitioning of J&K from India, your 'secularism' should not have accepted it. It is not correct to say that non-moslems will continue to suffer in various ways in India and moslems will be pampered in various in India, just because secular india did not approve religion-based partition and would not also encourage further demands for such separation, from moslem majority areas, evolving. Our original stand itself should have been that: 'hindusthan has been hindu-land for millennia and shall remain so. Moslems who came from the west of sindh river as invaders can stay and continue as indian citizens. Those who do not want to be indians can pack up and go back to where their invader forefathers came from, to rejoin the iranians, turks or arabs'.

In my view, the long-term solution for the failed state of pakisthan will be for Sindh and Punjab states of pakistan to confederate with India [letting POK also rejoin J&K] and partake in India's techno-economic growth as the pre-partition hindusthan. NWFP, Baluchisthan and other talibanized tribal belts
should be under UN-admn until they regularize their democratic systems and then decide, each group by themselves, whether they wish to be with Hindusthan or Afghanisthan or Iran. In my opinion, eventually, even Afghanisthan, the 'aapa-gaana-sthaana', "the realm of the singing clouds" of Gaffar Khan and many of India's classical musicians, may also gladly cobfederate with the growing globalized India of the 21st century.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 07, 2007 12:00 AM
68
Ghulam: "The correct corollary would be that Modi and Thackeray don't have to jump into every anti-Muslim argument in order to prove their communalist bona fides."

And the correct corollary to that would also be that Shabana or Akhtar or you do not have to jump into every anti-Modi, anti-Hindutva argument to prove your secular credentials.

But we don't see that happening, do we? If a muslim pukes in Gujarat due to indigestion, Shabana, Teesta and the lot would be on hunger strike at the Jantar-Mantar.

Hell, the simple thing as "no awards for Pathan brothers" was turned into a huge issue. And some people claimed victory stating that they "shamed the Modi Govt into awarding the Pathan brothers".

In fact, even you posted a link about that here.

But no one asked what business the state had in doling out cash to already rich cricketers. In their eagerness to "shame Modi" and prove their secular credentials, they did not care about the drain of the tax-payers money.
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Oct 07, 2007 12:00 AM
67
>> Ladhak and Jammu may be made separate statesfully federated into india, with article 370 inapplicable to them.

This would be a strategic mistake.
1. It would give the impression that INdia is OK with religion based partition of the state.
2. It would play into the separatist propaganda that Hindus and Buddhists are Indian while Muslims are Kashmiri.
3. It would pave the way for eventual secession of the Kashmir Valley. India must stick to the stand verbalized repeatedly by the PM that there can be no change in borders whatsoever.
vijay
Chennai, India
Oct 07, 2007 12:00 AM
66
“These earned me denouncements as anti-national, self-hating, anti-Hindu, pro- Pakistani, crypto-Muslim, etc”

Oh!! No – did they really?? Hai Allah – this is simply preposterous, Ananya-ji.

Perhaps, this is because people “mis-understand” you, when you paint the “victims” of Muslim, rape, mass-murder, forced marriages, forced conversions as:

“Aggressively Hindu nationalist, right-wing Pandit groups”

Of course, the “perpetrators” of rape, mass-murder are concerned, they are projected by you with ample caveats:

“the persecution of the Pandits at the hands of their fellow-Kashmiris, following the fault-lines of religious difference and the minority-majority divide…. Kashmir’s Muslim leadership has consistently expressed regret for what happened to the Pandits in the first phase of the struggle for azadi…”

So much sympathy for the “victims” is over-whelming, especially coming from an obvious “Hindu--non-Pandit--sympathizer like” yourself.

Of course, it would be nice, to see some evidence in your writing of such outlandish claims as “someone like me - … secular, committed to the longevity and flourishing of the Indian nation in every sense” – after all, what we have so far is the following:
- support for “azaadi” for Kashmir

- removing Indian army presence from Indian lands

- no mentions [perhaps on purpose] of the implication on Indian river sources of any of the the above

- Support for “secessionists-r-us” Haksar and her jihadi protégé SAR Geelani, mainly due to their attacks on the Indian state and its people

Till we see such evidence, we’ll just have to deal with your dishonesty. But, do try to open your rear-end a little wider the next time you write – perhaps the putrid propaganda you put out, will have more people convinced; at this time however, judging by the responses, your readership clearly doubts your intentions.

Oh, another thing, Ananya-ji – since, selling out seems to be your forte – you have the resident Islamist bigot wetting himself at the prospect of “what else may you be willing to sell” – he’s already sent you enough love-crazed hints, as in “

“Ananya's other articles, this one too has beautiful prose, incisive argument and an eye-opening message”

Before the maggot wanks himself silly hallucinating about the source of such pure-Islamist propaganda, please do reach out and give him a “hand”.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Oct 06, 2007 12:00 AM
65
Chanakya,

>> even Modi & Thackeray can be termed as seculars.

The correct corollary would be that Modi and Thackeray don't have to jump into every anti-Muslim argument in order to prove their communalist bona fides.

Al,

>> I personally will value criticism only from those that in have earned my trust by being unprejudiced in my eyes.

Unprejudiced is not the same thing as secular. A secular person is heavily prejudiced against communalists. By the way, are there any criteria for judging a communalist as being trustworthy? Or do I see tactics to divert attention from an anti-BJP argument by raising the bogey of,"But are you genuinely secular?"
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 06, 2007 12:00 AM
64
Vijay: A fourth point also:

4. Indian army hould build its own cantonments in some free areas in kashmir, vacate existing kashmiri public buildings occuppied by it, to avoid giving the impression of an 'army of occupation'.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 06, 2007 12:00 AM
63
Vijay:>>"An interesting article that presents all points of view, but unfortunately willfully ignores those facts that are inconvenient to the narrative."

Exactly. The five points made out by you are very significant. Some additional points:

1.Ladhak and Jammu may be made separate statesfully federated into india, with article 370 inapplicable to them. Some referendum in those places can be done to justify this action by parliament. Eventually these areas will integrate fully with India, internal security forces there can be thinned out, after the police in jammu and ladhak become mostly hindus and buddheists, respectively.

2.Steps may be taken to create a kashmiri regiment for the army. India-friendly elements from J&K police and other fresh young kashmiri recruits may be specially in a relatively dispute-free area like chennai and then posted for security in kashmir, to handle the militants. Local population will see the indian army as non-different from themselves.

3.Officers and men of indian army posted in kashmir should be transferred and changed every three years, to avoid their families getting rooted there and developing a vested interest in the continuance of a militancy perception there, and hence go in for faked-encounter type of anti-militancy operations on really innocent people.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 06, 2007 12:00 AM
62
I am glad Mr. Kak has made this film. Indians must know how their fellow Indians live, if they claim to have fellow feeling for them. But the premise of this reviewer is flawed. Swat Valley was also beautiful and unique and moreover it was Azad and free of the evil Indians for the last 60 years. But today it is too getting ready for Mr. Kak to make a movie about it in a few years time.
XYZ
Los Angeles, USA
Oct 06, 2007 12:00 AM
61
The writer says:" What frightens us is not the alien nature of the sentiment in every Kashmiri breast: what frightens is its familiarity, its echo of our own desire for nationhood that found its voice, albeit after great bloodshed, six decades ago."

Familiarity? What faniliarity? When were thousands of Britishers killed during the Indian independence movement? When were indigenous people made to live like refugees in their own country during the freedom movement? When were people ethnically cleansed during the freedom movement?

Let's not talk about "familiarity".

If the average Kashmiri wants the average Indian to sympathise with his cause, then probably he should stop his "mis-guided" brethren from blowing up innocent tourists in the name of "dewy-eyed azaadi".

The average Kashmiri should perhaps make his "struggle" a non-violent one without any help from sworn enemies of the Indian State - Pakistan and other Islamist forces.

"After all, we learnt two words together--"azadi" and "swaraj", freedom and self-rule--and on these foundations was our nation built."

We have won our "azaadi" and "swaraj" through a predominantly non-violent means. And the movement that won us freedom was fought for the freedom of all. Not for one religion.

Let the Kashmiris learn this. Till then, don't expect sympathy.
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Oct 06, 2007 12:00 AM
60
Ghulam:" If everybody and his brother has already jumped on a case of Muslim communalism, neither I nor Shabana may want to join in just for the sake of proving our bona fides."

By that standard, even Modi & Thackeray can be termed as seculars. When everybody & his brother & neighbour have jumped on a case of Hindu communalism, Thackeray or Modi need not join in to prove their bona fides.

By restricting themselves to merely criticising Muslim communalism, they can label themselves as seculars too - just like Shabana or Akhtar or you.
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Oct 06, 2007 12:00 AM
59
>> If everybody and his brother has already jumped on a case of Muslim communalism, neither I nor Shabana may want to join in just for the sake of proving our bona fides.

That might be your position. I personally will value criticism only from those that in have earned my trust by being unprejudiced in my eyes. Others may cry themselves hoarse, and I shall just filter their rants as irrelevant noise.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 06, 2007 12:00 AM
58
>> these higher emotions like progressiveness, liberalism, secularism, etc

Secularism is not one step from saintliness. It is just an attempt to keep one's religion and one's politics apart. There is no such thing as a perfect secularist, just as there is no such thing as a perfect communalist. If everybody and his brother has already jumped on a case of Muslim communalism, neither I nor Shabana may want to join in just for the sake of proving our bona fides.

>> Tavleen Singh has often written strongly against political Islam, as well as Hindutva. You are probably her fiercest critic on these boards.

I have posted more of her columns here than anyone else. I have also said several times that although I like her, lately she has become a scold.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 06, 2007 12:00 AM
57
>> Where does it say that?

A rule which I like to call the "Bundy rule". No one is a secular in my eyes unless they pass the "Bundy rule".

>> If the secular criticizes nine out of ten instances of communalism, they can always pick that one instance and declare themselves triumphant. The communalist however is not liable to any such tests. And for you this would be fair and proper!

Valid point and well taken. However, if there is a pattern (e.g. only Hindu communalism is criticized, or criticized with much more ferocity), then the criticism would be valid. While what you say is true, the reverse is also true. The secularists will indulge in a muted criticism of some minor instance of minority communalism or secular perfidy, and use it as a proof of their genuine secular, progressive credentials. e.g., long back, Shabana Azmi criticized banning of the play "Me Nathuram Godse boltey". She kept using it as an excuse of her genuine secular credentials anytime her commitment to genuine liberalism and secularism was challenged.

Let's put it this way. Anyone who professes to speak on behalf of these higher emotions like progressiveness, liberalism, secularism, etc., should be ready to face criticism and opposition. I strongly believe that if their commitment to these values is genuine, they shall not face much criticism, except maybe from a fringe minority. If you believe otherwise, I shall appreciate if you can point to some people who are frequent recipients of the pseudo secular charge, and instances of their strong criticism of minority communalism. It doesn't even have to be propotionate to their criticism of Hindutva. Just something that sounds reasonable to a common person.

The shoe is often on the other foot. Genuinely secular people are often criticized for being anti-minority. For example, Tavleen Singh has often written strongly against political Islam, as well as Hindutva. You are probably her fiercest critic on these boards.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 06, 2007 12:00 AM
56
...agreed there are innocent Kashmiris caught in the cross fire and if they had to oppose Pakistani sponsored terrorism openly, they would be killed straight away. It is our Government that needs to destroy the Pakistani rerrorism but....seccessionism....never.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Oct 06, 2007 12:00 AM
55
'We of all people should strive for a time when it will become possible for a Kashmiri to offer a visitor a cup of tea without rancour or irony, as a simple uncomplicated expression of the hospitality that comes naturally to those who belong to this culture.'
Yes, Mam, I will certainly welcome the Kashmiri as a friend and a brother provided he calls himself an Indian first and swears allegiance to the Motherland.
I am indeed shocked at the way you have taken up cudgels for the Kashmiri cause totally ignoring the national cause and not sparing even a passing thought for our countless brave 'jawans' who have sacrificed their lives for the country.
As regards the represssion and human rights violations, agreed that force against innocents is wrong. Now tell me, was it this way till 1989 when this problem blew in our face? Till then,could not any Kashmiri come to visit,trade or settle in any part of India and did we not treat them as compatriots.
As regards 'azadi', it is a sinful term. They are welcome to live among us as Indians but if every seccessionist movement from Kashmir to the North East to Tamil Eelam was given credence, what happens to our country? We have Kashmiris, North Eastern secessionists, Tamil secessionists...where are the Indians?
We can and must live together in a united India and work together to make it peaceful and prosperous.
The creation of Pakistan was a crime against nation and against humanity (for the countless deaths, divisions of families and untold pains that it caused) and not even an inch of India shall be given away, no matter what.
Mam, you have done a great disservice by writing such an anti national piece.
I pray and wish that nationalist fervour takes root in your misguided intellectualism.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
54
It was Nehru's mistake to make J & K a part of India and still not fully a part of India, by giving article 370 in the indian constution and giving kashmir a separate constitution. But for 370, lots of Indians from elsewhere would have settled in kashmir, propelled its development into a switzerland of the east, kashmiris would have known more about the rest of India and also spread into other parts of India. Nehru was kashmiri first and indian next; hence he wanted J&K culture not to be polluted by India. His anti-indian dynasty is ruling us today, a real irony.

Free education to degree level for kashmiris, not for others in India, another nehruvian give- away. Educated, but jobless kashmiris, get money from pak to plot against india. But for this, lots of kashmiri youngsters would have joined the indian army, a kashmiri regiment would be there to defend kashmir against pakistan! But, indian politicians, with islamic votebanks in all their own states to pamper, did not remove 370 to please their moslem voters. Even BJP in power left 370 untouched, they also needed moslem votes, because of casteist disunity among hindus. Advani did not even agree to separate jammu and ladakh as separate states more fully federated with india. Bhaarat maata is denying him the PM's post now! As you sow, so you reap!.
Problem with India is her greedy politicians with their ugly faces, truly revealing their uglier thought-patterns, in all our parties.

But, even now, kashmiris are better off being with India. Let free, they will be taken over by pakistan within a week and talibanized to export terrorism into india in much larger volume, power and frequency. Their women will be enshrouded, education and tourism curtailed.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
53
An interesting article that presents all points of view, but unfortunately willfully ignores those facts that are inconvenient to the narrative.

1. Kashmir is the the first state to feel the brunt of the Indian State's excess. TN, Punjab and NE have all felt it to varying degrees. Given that many of these other states have been tightly assimilated, why is Kashmir different? The reason it is different is because Pakistan will never allow India to deal with it on its own terms and those of the indigenous Kashmiri groups.
2. Kashmiris are now a minority in "Azad" Kashmir. Pakistan has taken a leaf from China's Tibet book and settled untold numbers of Punjabis on lands that are not theirs. The author seems troubled by "uncaring Indian tourists", but this is really BS. If India's treatment of Kashmiris were really as bad as projected, then the problem would not be "uncaring Indian tourists", but massive Bihari settlements in the Vale of Kashmir.
3. The author acknowledges the lack of serious effort among the separatists to bring back the Pandits. But then, how does removing the armed forces help their cause?
4. The "Muslim areas" of Kashmir state include the Shia dominated border areas which are strongly pro India. These were the areas where the NWFP tribes had indulged in rape and killings on fellow Muslims during their misadventure of 1947. Should the Indian state abandon them?
5. Sheikh Abdullah was the preeminent Kashmiri leader in 1947. He explicitly chose to acceed to India instead of Pakistan. If the legacy of the terrorists "is cowed down but undefeated", how about the legacy of the integrationists? Have they not also been blown to bits by terrorist guns?

The fact of the matter is that the Indian state has long ago understood the folly of its high handed tactics. Kashmir's future is firmly in Kashmiri hands. They should firmly pull themselves away from the clutches of Islamic extremists and external state actors in order to find a honorable solution with the Indian State. The Indian State on its part has repeatedly expressed willingness to consider "everything short of complete independence". That obviously includes complete millitary pullout form the Kashmir Valley.
vijay
Chennai, India
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
52
>> how many of the 700000 were killed by AL Queda bombings and how many were killed by US.

Check my post again!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
51
>> In such a case, heshould not mind when others question his committment to liberalism and secularism, and dub him pseudo.

Those "others" have a very easy task. If the secular criticizes nine out of ten instances of communalism, they can always pick that one instance and declare themselves triumphant. The communalist however is not liable to any such tests. And for you this would be fair and proper!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
50
And BTW, how many of the 700000 were killed by AL Queda bombings and how many were killed by US troops(assuming the number to be true)?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
49
"A UK-based polling agency, Opinion Research Business (ORB), said it had extrapolated the figure by asking a random sample of 1,461 Iraqi "

Extrapolation based on a random sample!! That is some authority to rely on. If 700000 is the number of deaths due to war, then atleast thrice the number of people must have been displaced. That brings the number to 2.8 Million(dead +displaced). This in a country of 27 million people. The numbers dont make sense practically.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
48
"Where does it say that?" It is certainly something laudable and principled, but read Al Bundy's second paragraph. Where he says that a selectively secular individual should not mind someone questioning their secular character and committment to liberalism. As an adjunct charge them with hypocrisy when they question another person's committment.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
47
>> From where did the 700000 come from?

A UK-based polling agency, Opinion Research Business (ORB), said it had extrapolated the figure by asking a random sample of 1,461 Iraqi adults how many people living in their household had died as a result of the violence rather than from natural causes. The results lend weight to a 2006 survey of Iraqi households published by the Lancet, which suggested that about 655,000 Iraqi deaths were ‘a consequence of the war’.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
46
>> a self proclaimed secular is required to speak up against all forms of communalism.

Where does it say that?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
45
"although you do adore Bush who is directly or indirectly responsible for the murder of 700,000 Muslims. "

From where did the 700000 come from? I have seen all sorts of numbers starting from thirty thousand.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
44
>> Nobody is rquired to criticize anything except what one thinks is deserving of criticism.

Actually no. Just like a govt is required to not discriminate amongst citizens, a self proclaimed secular is required to speak up against all forms of communalism.

Of course, as always happens, a self proclaimed secular can be selective in his criticism, and claim it (justifiably) as his right. In such a case, heshould not mind when others question his committment to liberalism and secularism, and dub him pseudo.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
43
dumb mistake:
my apologies to siddharth kak, whoever he may be ( the name must have been stuck in my mind) for mixing him up with the guilty sanjay kak in this story, and raving about him by mistake :-)
radesh rangarajan
chennai, India
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
42
Parbat/Sandhu/Ramdas/Abdullah/Thomas,

>> That is what Ghulam is good at: recomnmending the sweet prose style of those who promote the cause of bloodthirsty killers of Hindus and Sikhs.

I don't remember Ananya Vajpei ever promoting the cause of bloodthirsty killers of Hindus and sikhs, although you do adore Bush who is directly or indirectly responsible for the murder of 700,000 Muslims.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
41
VARUN SHEKHAR:

Very well said, Varun. Spot on. These Islamic "freedom movements" which the likes of Vajpei profitably laud are rampages of bloodthirsty fanatical totalitarian thugs. Their victory would bring horrific cruel suffering to every decent person who falls under their evil sway. Just like in Iraq.

No wonder Ghulam Faruki, our resident Islamist soft-soaper, could not resist whinnying about Vajpey's beautiful prose - which you correctly qualified as maudlin.

That is what Ghulam is good at: recomnmending the sweet prose style of those who promote the cause of bloodthirsty killers of Hindus and Sikhs.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
40
>> A Sanghi or some other communal person is not obligated to be even handed in praise or criticism. A truly secular person on the other hand, is required to criticize all forms of communal forces, as well as motivated secularism, with equal vigour.

Nobody is rquired to criticize anything except what one thinks is deserving of criticism.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
39
>> Do I condemn the sanghis as much as you and your fellow sanghis condemn the seculars?

But here is the irony. A Sanghi or some other communal person is not obligated to be even handed in praise or criticism.

A truly secular person on the other hand, is required to criticize all forms of communal forces, as well as motivated secularism, with equal vigour. Else, their secularism is compromised.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
38
>> Singapore and Kualalumpur sound so much like Jaipur.

The origin of Singapore is actually "Singh Pura", or the land of the lion.

Apparently a Rajah from one of the Southern states was hunting in Singapore, and saw a big cat, which he thought was a lion and said "Singh" (apparently the cat was actually a tiger). So, the land came to be known as "Singh Pura", which in Sanskrit translates to land of the lion.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
37
Dear Ms.Ananya --

As per your wishes lets suppose India Grants complete freedom. Are you going to take the responsibility of the safety of Minorities(meaning, Hindus,Christians,Sikhs etc) in the Independent Kashmir. What Guarantee can you give that their lives will be safe and their way of life will not change ? It is very easy to sit in a AC room and write these kind of Articles but very tough to implement the policy which you preach. Unless the external forces stops supporting the militants of Kashmir there will not be peace and stablity and any worthwhile solution to the 60 year problem.

Regards,
Venkatesh
Venkatesh
Sunnyvale, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
36
Guess you find it too difficult to use the term genocide for what was done by Kashmiri Muslims to Kashmiri hindus? And that it is the intolerant strain in Islam that has resulted in all this.

Please get your facts right!
Vic Sangha
Toronto, Canada
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
35
"Condemning Kashmiri separatists is easy. But what does that solve?"

Exactly that which gets solved when you condemn the sanghis. Or I condemn the secularists and communists. In other words, nothing. Just gives me a good delusion that I did my duty as a citizen in taking part in public discourse.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
34
"While we are talking of human tragedy, let's also talk about a tragedy no one talks about. The problems of the troops stationed in Kashmir"

WHo cares about the troops? Or the law police who put their lives in line to save others? We saw the glorious apathy of the govt and the population during the Afsal fiasco. The families returned the medals and no one batted an eyelid. No one bothered to ask what prompted them to do it and what can be done to understand their feelings.

We are busy "understanding" the feelings and motives of terrorists that we dont have time to understand the feelings of those family members. In state of such apathy, it is a miracle that so many people serve in the armed forces and the police-trying to protect those who care diddly squat about them.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
33
Well written, Derek. India is a land of exceptionalism. Kashmir isn't more exceptional, but what they have been doing is exceptionable!
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
32
I am not a Hindu. India is a progressive secular democracy and should not bother with any referendum for Kashmir. India should go ahead and abolish article 370. Other Indians should be encouraged to settle in Kashmir.

MUSLIM Kashmiri yearning for "azadi" is actaully Islamic supremacism conceived, nurtued and directed by Pakistan's ISI, funded by petro dollars, and is predicated on the muslim belief, of the division of the world into believers and non-believers -dar ul Islam(land of the believers) and dar-ul-harb(land of non-muslims and therefore land of war). This is the true cause of the conflicts in literally dozens of countries around the world today, which has been practiced since the inception of Islam in the 7th century.

Kashmiri exceptionalism is not a uniqe, other regions or peoples too can make their claims to exceptionialism. Nagas, Tamilians, Sikhs, the North-east, in fact nearly every group in India can claim some sort of exceptionialism, the end result being the unravelling of the modern Indian experiment, which by current indicators seems to have come together rather nicely.

If the petro dollar angle is removed, a lot of the current Kashmiri angst or "charbi" will be drastically reduced. Until then India should fight for Kashmir tooth and nail-the alternative being the end of the Indian experiment.
Derek Columbus
New York, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
31
Miss Vajpeyi has also not given any thought to the nature of the putative free Kashmir that she feels should arise. Will it be democratic, pluralistic, secular, modern, open, or the opposite? What about the Hindus who live there, the ones who have been thrown out, the Ladakhi Buddhists, the many Kashmiri Moslems who have all along been well disposed toward India? What is to be their fate? Would this new country grant the freedom to be agnostic or atheistic and that too openly? India's freedom movement pretty much spelled all this out before it succeeded. Anyway, it's academic,since Kashmir is not going to become a new country. As I have said many times in this message board, the only movement that will defeat India is one that has more, not less, freedom, pluralism, openness, democracy and secularism than what currently exists in India. But such a result will not be a 'defeat' for India at all. India will gasp in awe at this new progressive entity and will have the friendliest relations with it, learn and be inspired by the new country, and soon re-federate with it.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
30
Dear Ms. Vajpeyi,
Your article, "Azadi: Theirs and Ours" is very thought provoking. Looked at in isolation, it is very moving as is any human story of oppression. However, these cannot be looked at in isolation. You say that as an Indian and one who is intimately familiar with the Indian struggle for independence, I should be understanding of the Kashmiri aspirations for the same freedom that I enjoy. I have no quarrel with that sentiment. I do wish every Kashimiri the same freedoms that I enjoy. What I do questions is why a Kashmiri cannot bring himself to enjoy freedoms guaranteed to him as an Indian.

Which brings me to the question, who is an Indian? Every Indian has several levels of identity. For instance, I am an Indian but I am also a Kannadiga. Does that make me want to declare that I want my freedom as a Kannadiga and not an Indian. Not on my life! My several identities are distinct but at the same time, unified. That is the ethos of India.
So why is a Kashmiri justified in demanding freedom as a Kashmiri? What separates him from other Indians? Is it, as you say, language? But Tamil is just as distinct from other major Indian languages as is Kashmiri. So, following the same logic, should Tamil Nadu demand independence from the Indian Union?
In my opinion, the Kashmiri demanding freedom from the Indian Union is an attack on the very idea of India. True, the Indian state has made grievous errors in judgement in dealing with the Kashmiri. But it is also true that the Indian troop presence there is also due to this very real threat to the idea of India. I am convinced that if tomorrow Karnataka or Tamil Nadu posed the same threat to the idea of India, we would be given the same treatment as Kashmir.
Best Regards,
Krishna
Krishna Kurpad
Madison, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
29


One of the absolutely essential features of colonialism is a master race/subject race dichotomy. One group is constantly in a superior position in every way- politically, economically, culturally, socially. The other is inferior. And it is certified or even legalised( as in Nazi or South African apartheid, more subtly by the British) by ideology. This perpetual dichotomy has to exist for there to real colonialism. Miss Vajpeyi doesn't seem to understand that.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
28
HappyRam/Jash/Minu,

>> condemning Sanghies is easier but what does it solve ?

Do I condemn the sanghis as much as you and your fellow sanghis condemn the seculars?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
27
Agree with Al regarding the complexity of this issue. Simplistic and jingoistic tirades do not serve any useful purpose.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
26
The writer is biased.The kashmiris are themselves to be blamed for their present plight.It was kashmiris who rather than fighting for kashmiriat,followed an extremist ideology.They excluded non muslims from their movement,which ironically even palestinians have not done.

The writer has also ignored the present geo-political reality that nations in 21st century just cannot be founded on the basis of an exclusive religion.It is precisely for this reason that today there is no pressure on India to negotiate about kashmir or even human rights abused from the International community.

Mr kak should remember that you just cannot rape,kill,convert & cleanse people who are not like you and get so called 'Azadi' on the basis of religious bogotry.Kashmiris needs to settle down and ponder over their present situation.This is 21st century,world is globalising,millions of people of every religion are moving in different places around the world.It is tolerence of other people beliefs that makes one culture prestigious.

Mr kak & Ananya Vajpayee should also understand that Rule of law is more important than public opinion.If we go by public opinion,Nazis & Hitler were democratically elected and as such their mass murder of six million innocent jews including two million children was right!Kasmiris just need to broaden their horizon in their crest for azadi & I am sure a new morning will come for them as also for all Indian & Pakistani people alongwith them.By doing this,they will improve their image as also of Islam in the eyes of others.
GYAN CHANDRA SHARMA
patna, India
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
25
I do also agree that special treatment of Kashmir (Article 370) to start with was a fatal flaw. It created a mindset of special rights but no proportional responsibility towards integration and putting in the hardwork in the process of democratization of so as to improve the whole for your benefit too. It should have been made clear that Kashmir had no special rights to claim it was different than any other state being integrated as being part of an "independent" nation-state (just like Kashmiriyat there was Tamilianiyat, Bihariyat, Bengaliyat and what have you). So that Kashmiri's yearnings for "azadi" would like any other state of India's yearning for "azadi" (e.g., tamil) help strengthen Indian democracy by decentralizing and providing the space and a place in the "sun" for the states.

And that an India would not concede anymore space for a "Muslim" homeland (Pakistan) than already done or have yet another independent Muslim country on our borders. We already have a pretty screwed up neighborhood. Islam and liberal-secular democracy then and now are still at odds and not yet heading in the direction of finding common ground (even in our neighborhood forget the larger middle east).

So I do agree with the current line - "find your azadi within the Indian constitution and be part of making it better for you and also the whole".
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
24
I think is a thoroughly biased and myopic article. Kashmir is the state is the Sword arm of India with Punjab in the North. Wohout KAshmir there is no India. Infact the betrayal of Idnian Interst started with a Kashmiri origin Indian Prime Minister lets not forget. The artcle is writtenm by a neo-liberal and thinking is divorced fromr eality on the ground. It is a nightmare to think of Kashmir without India and will open the Islamic hordes of Arabic and Pakistani origin. Whatever the twisted logic MIGHT IS ALWAYS RIGHT and GANDHIJI DID NOT WIN FREEDOM FOR INDIA WITH AHIMSA. To face aggression is not Sayagraha or Ahimsa or we would be still bonded to the British even now.

Azadi for Kashmiris is union with Pakistan and they will never achieve iot in their lives because Indians have spilt their blood and wealth for the fredom of Kashmir. Let the Kashmiris free Azad kashmir first and parts of AKshmir sold by Pakistan to China!!!!
Ram
Singapore, Singapore
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
23
al bundy
enjoyed and thoroughly agreed with your cogent arguments and balanced analysis that ought to have better pride of place than ananya's, in this magazine.
the problem as i see it, is that instead of offering a solution, this kind of blatantly biased reporting by Kak and Vajpeyi, helps harden stands in otherwise open minded people.
radesh rangarajan
chennai, India
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
22
Good one AB, I too was struck by the absence of the 'human dimension' when it comes to Indian soldiers, police and paramilitary. And the absence of pro-India/well disposed to India Kashmiri references. Evidently the 'human dimension' line doesn't extend very far.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
21
Part 4 of 4

Finally, the author offers no solutions. By now it is fairly certain that this movement doesn't have support of the minority population. I believe that it is largely driven by religion. Even if that is not true, the Pandits have been driven out, and are unlikely to go back (and shall certainly not, in the event of Azadi). Is it India's responsibility to take them all? What about non Hindu Kashmiris? As a secular nation, can we say that we shall accept only Hindu refugees? If we refuse to take any refugees, and force them to go back, are we condemning them to a genocide?

The trials and challenges faced by administrators and policy makers are much much more different and complicated than those of movie makers and columnists. The latter have the luxury of seeing, presenting and empathizing with only side of the population or argument. While such intellectual activity is useful and part of a process that shapes policy, criticism should be well received, without labeling it as jingoistic or communal.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
20
Part 3 of 4

While we are talking of human tragedy, let's also talk about a tragedy no one talks about. The problems of the troops stationed in Kashmir. They are in one of the worst possible situations. Supposedly peacetime operations, but fraught with grave risks. While they have to fight the terrorists on one hand, they are also constantly tackling a population which is significantly hostile and sides with their opponents. A woman casually walking in a burqa, or a bunch of youths riding on their bikes could be innocent civilians going on with their lives, or could be part of the enemy.

Long back I read an interview of an officer who stated that some terrorists attacked a post and killed some soldiers. The next day, members of a nearby village invited them for a feast, but there was nothing the army could do. Now, not sure if it is true, and if so, whether the terrorists were invited, or forced themselves on the local population. However, the fact that such a story is believable shows the environment the troops work in.

As for the Kashmiris "walking amongst the dead", the troops also must have seen the death of a lot of their comrades, the only family they know for a long time. Do they enjoy living far away from home, fighting terrorists, and facing a hostile population, that they defend to the best of their abilities, yet get cursed on by the same people? Isn't the high suicide rate, or instance of indiscipline a symptom of this human problem? Do they not deserve some empathy from the bleeding hearts or a film sympathetic to them at Cannes?
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
19
Part 2 of 4

While the article talks about Kashmiri Pandits, it does not hold the Kashmiri people responsible. While the author does manage a snide remark against us ("For Indians, even if they do little or nothing to rehabilitate Pandits into the Indian mainstream") for failing to properly rehabilitate the refugees, it does not even mention the role of the local population in their distress. All it manages is a mild criticism of their leadership. While we are talking about human tragedies, should we not talk about a group of people who have lost everything that they had. Their children have not seen the land that was (still is) rightfully theirs. What about people who saw their neighbors, old friends, colleagues betray/threaten/kill them, occupy their holdings, and condemn them as refugees. Do these people not deserve even a word of criticism, even as the writer pleads for our empathy towards them?
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
18
Part 1 of 4

As I mentioned above, I believe the article is dishonest. While it is well written, and paints quite a moving picture of the trials and challenges faced by the population on a daily basis, it skirts the issue of the origins of the Azadi sentiment. The main focus is on the last two decades, with minor references to 47. However, did these yearnings for Azadi exist before 89 or did they originate then? Was the kidnapping of Mufti's daughter in 89 a trigger for violent manifestation of a sentiment that existed before, or did such sentiments originate in 89? What were their causes? The troop increase and the security operations are of relatively recent vintage. Prior to 89, there were tourists, Bollywood etc. in Kashmir. Is the sentiment for Azadi fueled by the troop presence, or is the relationship reverse?

Is there any other reason apart from troop presence driving this sentiment? If the Kashmiris think of us as foreigners/occupiers, are we behaving in such a way to give credence to their thoughts? If so, what are such acts, and did they cause the 89 events? How are these sentiments different than those held by Khalistanis earlier, or ULFA etc. now?
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
17
>> As with Ananya's other articles, this one too has beautiful prose, incisive argument and an eye-opening message. I am sure that both her article and Kak's documentary will be severely criticized and their patriotism will be questioned. But they remind us that besides the legal, political and the military aspects of this dilemma, there is another important dimension : the human dimension.

Actually, agree with these comments to a very large extent. I typically avoid long articles. However, I enjoyed reading it, and do agree that there is a human dimension to this issue, which does often get overlooked in the usual discussion.

Despite this, I believe that the article (won't comment on the movie, since haven't seen it. Seems like the sentiments in the article are reflective of the movie, but shall restrict my comments to the article only) is dishonest. Moreover, I believe that this dishonesty is not an oversight, but is quite deliberate.

I am also severely prejudiced about it, and I am sure it shall reflect in my post, even though I shall try to be objective.

I myself rarely read long comments, so doubt anyone shall read my post completely. Thanks to those who take the trouble though.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
16
>> By the way, where does this 700,000 figure come from?

It is in this article.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
15
Ananya Vajpeyi and Siddharth Kak are not bleeding hearts like they pretend to be. They are genuine traitors, who need to be identified and branded as such.
The root of the problem in Kashmir is the muslim majority, which India under the feeble-minded Nehru , ignored. He also allowed the insane article 370, which prevented India from assimilating the state normally as it did in the case of Hyderabad, Junagadh etc. Kashmiris can buy land and settle anywhere they like in India, but an indian citizen from outside of Kashmir cannot own land in Kashmir. This helped the muslim majority consolidate and edge out the Pandits. When muslims are in a minority they clamour for Psecularism and demand extra privileges. The moment they achieve majority, they kill, convert or evict all minorities.
Hindus have the additional burden of having cancerous sleeper cells like Kak and Vajpeyi.
The right solution to kashmir is settlement by indians of all hues, and give them liberal benefits, right to carry personal arms, and security,following the Israeli model in Palestine. That is the best hope for integration.
By pussyfooting around the issue, Indian leadership across all parties has only displayed its moral cowardice. Now the worms like Kak and Ananya vajpeyi have become emboldened to come crawling out of the woodwork, we need to stamp them out ruthlessly.
radesh rangarajan
chennai, India
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
14
Ananya Vajpeyi and Siddharth Kak are not bleeding hearts like they pretend to be. They are genuine traitors, who need to be identified and branded as such.
The root of the problem in Kashmir is the muslim majority, which India under the feeble-minded Nehru , ignored. He also allowed the insane article 370, which prevented India from assimilating the state normally as it did in the case of Hyderabad, Junagadh etc. Kashmiris can buy land and settle anywhere they like in India, but an indian citizen from outside of Kashmir cannot own land in Kashmir. This helped the muslim majority consolidate and edge out the Pandits. When muslims are in a minority they clamour for Psecularism and demand extra privileges. The moment they achieve majority, they kill, convert or evict all minorities.
Hindus have the additional burden of having cancerous sleeper cells like Kak and Vajpeyi.
The right solution to kashmir is settlement by indians of all hues, and give them liberal benefits, right to carry personal arms, and security,following the Israeli model in Palestine. That is the best hope for integration.
By pussyfooting around the issue, Indian leadership across all parties has only displayed its moral cowardice. Now the worms like Kak and Ananya vajpeyi have begun emboldened to come crawling out of the woodwork, we need to stamp them out ruthlessly.
radesh rangarajan
chennai, India
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
13
HappyRam/Jash/Minu,

>> But he will not condemn Namak haram rebel Kashmiries.

Condemning Kashmiri separatists is easy. But what does that solve?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
12
Incredibly gratuitous comparison between India's freedom movement, and the Kashmiri separatism. What on earth is the connection? India's freedom struggle was directed against colonialism in all its ugliness- the racial inequality and blatant racism, the super expolitation of India's resources and labour, and the permanent direction of India's politics and economy from a distant land. India's movement was also visionary. It strove for something greater and better than what existed. More democracy, secularism, openness, pluralism and modernity. Not less. Can the Kashmir movement claim the same? Absolutely not.
Utterly long winded, maudlin and self indulgent prose by Miss Vajpeyi.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
11
If these mullahs in J&K are so much in love with Porkistan, so be it. I am sure the rest of the country will more than willing to pool resources to provide safe trip to them with govt. expenses. Let there be a referendum on that but on the land. We the people of India are the custodians of the land and no one, I mean no one, even the PM or the parliament can gift the land to anyone. Any PM with bal*s would have enunciated this point clearly but not the hijdas occupying our PMO. If it was America, that is exactly what they would have done. It will serve twin purpose i.e kick the scum out of the country and give more space to the native Hindus population. Let's have a referendum on whether we should let these mullahs live in J&K or not.
True Indian
,,, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
10
He talks as if Indian soldeirs are stationed on a foreign soil, like Americans in Iraq. That itself shows that this idiot thinks J&K is independent of India already. We the people of India has the right to station our troops wherever we want in India, that includes J&K. If not, are we going to station them in China or Bangladesh. This stupid point was repeated by these Paki lickers in our media that India troops are stationed in J&K. I say, SO WHAT?
True Indian
,,, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
9
India was a colony, a jewel in the crown for the British Empire. The empire fuelled its industrial revolution from the loot and pillage of its colonies. I dont see how Vajpeyi can compare the Empire with the Indian claims over Kashmir.

The Kashmiris may be living reluctantly under Indian control, but atleast they are on home soil. What about the Pandits? The Pandits are the real anaology to Palestine.
shapra
Santa Clara, USA
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
8
Overall a very mediocre piece of writing.. actually analysis.
Plenty of complaints are made against the Indian state and its military apparatus in the state but no viable solution is offered.

Removing military bunkers will solve all problems - once and for all. That is the sentiment expressed. What next ? Azaadi for north east, azaadi for the naxal areas ? Azaadi for the dravidian regions ...



bhushan
richmond, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
7
" He must take Indians with him, on his difficult journey, past their prejudices...."

Most of all he needs to take his brain with him
bhushan
richmond, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
6
Apropos the mention of trasnational jihad, a case can easily be made that the entire azaadi drama is the handi work of transnational jihadists. Had it been a local phenomenon, why wasn't it there prior to 1987 ?
One fine day in 1987 the locals of realize that they need to be azaad huh ?
bhushan
richmond, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
5
I wont question this lady's patriotism. Only her logic. Criticizing Security checks is fine, but she should also suggest some sustainable alternative that doesn't involve the risk of further fragmentation of India.

Atleast one of the groups operating in kashmir has made it clear that they won't stop with kashmir.. they want to liberate all of india. So where does that leave us in general and the security forces in particular ?
bhushan
richmond, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
4
", there is another important dimension : the human dimension. "

Thats why I am demanding a plebistice in Kashmir. Let the humans decide what they want. We need a plebistice in Jammu, Ladakh and Kashmir. Along with that we need a national referendum on whether the rest of India wants Kashmir as part of India. Such a plebistice will solve the issue once and for all.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
3
As with Ananya's other articles, this one too has beautiful prose, incisive argument and an eye-opening message. I am sure that both her article and Kak's documentary will be severely criticized and their patriotism will be questioned. But they remind us that besides the legal, political and the military aspects of this dilemma, there is another important dimension : the human dimension.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
2
I would like to see a plebistice in the area f Kashmir as to whether they want to remain with India or be free. If they want to get free from India, fine. We must make sure that they dont mess up anymore and any further messing in Indian affairs would invite a swift response. Kashmir has become a drain on India. We have been fighting there to preserve honour. Its high time we stop the fighting and go for a plebistice.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 05, 2007 12:00 AM
1
"We of all people should strive for a time when it will become possible for a Kashmiri to offer a visitor a cup of tea without rancour or irony, as a simple uncomplicated expression of the hospitality that comes naturally to those who belong to this culture."

For that to happen, Kashmiris should start behaving like Indians. I am a tamilian but my first identity is that of an Indian. And then only it is tamilian. Kashmiris think the other way round. That is not washing with the vast majority of Indians.

We say the apathy the rest of India had during the earthquake in kashmir. I think it was Yoginder Sikand who lamened about thelack of funds coming from ordinary citizens of the country. By contrast, during the Gujarat quake or the Orissa cyclone, the outpouring was spontaneous and the numbers were massive.

It is all nice to advice the rest of India how to treat kashmir. But part of the advice must be to kashmiris and asking them to behave like Indians. That would be a good first step.
Ganesan
Nj, USA