Narendra Bisht
Many Tamils see a valiant warrior in Ravana
tamil nadu
Quirky Compass
As seas near, Ram's repute takes a turn. For many, he's racist, canny.
ram setu
Ram is back in action. The ups and downs of dragging the icon for political gain. Updates
Smita Gupta
ram setu
'The UPA has only approved the alignment for the project cleared by the NDA -- as many as six BJP ministers associated with this decision'
ram setu
Ram's treatment of Sita, who suffered for no fault of hers, doesn't wash well with women today
Anuradha Raman
sangh parivar
The issue gets the BJP going but is unlikely to fuel a mass movement
Saba Naqvi
opinion
The UPA and secularists. Why else would they worry after this blooper?
Balbir K. Punj
"To Dravidian leaders, the Ramayan exemplifies all the ills of northern brahminical aryans." V. Geetha, Academic

"Why do they attack only Hindu gods? why is immaculate conception never questioned?" Cho Ramaswamy, Political analyst

"The non-Brahminical critique cites instances which show that Ram is anti-Shudra, deceitful." Dr M.S.S. Pandian, Social scientist

"We have no tradition of ram worship. it's local deities that you find in Tamil villages." Ravi Kumar, Dalit Panthers MLA

"DMK leaders make speeches on atheism, their wives are seen in temples the next day." V. Narayan, TN Brahmins Association

***

In the eyes of history, Rama remains a mythological figure because there are no coins, edicts or other evidence to prove that he existed. But he has been part of the collective consciousness of Hindus for a long time. However, for the Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam—like its precursor Dravidar Kazhagam and its patriarch Periyar—Rama has never been a hero figure.

In fact, Rama is seen as an invader not above chicanery who vanquished the 'Dravidian' king Ravana who, when viewed through DMK bifocals, comes through as a more humane character. While Rama questioned Sita's chastity leading to her agnipariksha, Ravana is seen as the man who never violated her although he abducted her and took her away to his kingdom, Lanka. The Tamil Nadu countryside is exposed to folk forms that celebrate Ravana as a hero and Rama as the villain who treated women unfairly.

Not surprisingly, octogenarian DMK leader and Tamil Nadu chief minister M. Karunanidhi—always faithful to his atheist roots—has been known to make statements that would be considered blasphemous by Rama devotees. He did just that this week at the 99th birth anniversary of Periyar in Erode. "Some say there was a person over 17 lakh years ago—his name, Ram. And we shouldn't touch the bridge (Ram Setu) he built. Who is this Ram? From which engineering college did he graduate? Is there any proof of this?" He went a step further when he declared on September 20 that he stood by all that he had said and that "Ram is a big lie". Karunanidhi remains unrepentant even as alleged Sangh parivar members attacked his daughter Selvi's house in Bangalore.

Karunanidhi's statements don't come as a shock to V. Geetha, an academic and editor with Tara Publications who has co-authored a book on the Dravidian movement. Says she: "From the early days of the Dravidian movement, leaders, publicists and ideologues were opposed to the use of Ramayana iconography by Hindu nationalist leaders—within the Indian National Congress and out of it. They felt the Ramayan exemplified all the ills of what they considered northern—Brahminical Aryan culture. The beheading of Tadaka, the killing of Shambuka, the banishing of Sita etc were considered instances of Aryan racism and barbarity."

But Geetha says that what should be borne in mind is that Rama is not such an emotive issue in the south. For instance, Ramlalla, the deity of the child Ram, which was smuggled in and installed at the disputed site in Ayodhya, does not strike a chord in these parts. In a historical sense, Rama has not been as important as some other gods in the Hindu pantheon. He has, for example, never been a guardian deity of dynasties. There are much fewer Ram temples than Shiva temples in TN, and even in Kerala.

Rama's rather unhappy tale is one reason for this, points out Dr A.R. Venkatachalapathy of the Madras Institute of Development Studies. "The popular belief is that worshipping Rama will bring grief—he was banished, his wife was abducted, his children were born in the forest." In fact in Tamil Nadu, Diwali—or Deepavali—is celebrated in memory of Krishna's victory over Narakasura. Many Tamils who know the Ramayana know it through its Tamil version, the Kamba Ramayanam. In it, Ravana is highly venerated as a Vedic scholar, a connoisseur of music, a warrior—as an epitome of everything moral. In short, Ravana is a tragic hero, not a villain.

So why did Karunanidhi choose to go strident on the Ram Setu issue? Social scientist M.S.S. Pandian, who is a visiting professor at Delhi's Centre for the Study of Developing Societies, notes that Rama and Ramayana have been criticised in public even before. He points out that the non-Brahmin critique has three strands: Rama, a Kshatriya loyal to Brahminism, kills Shambuka, a Shudra, for doing penance; Rama is deceitful in killing the monkey king Bali; and the Ramayana is an allegorical story of the northern conquest of the south.

DMK spokesperson T.K.S. Elangovan does not want to go as far as the CM but stoutly defends the Sethusamudram project. As for the Ram issue creating a stir and being revived by parties like the bjp, he has this to offer: "The question today isn't whether or not Rama existed. It is simply that the bridge is not a man-made and there is no archaeological evidence to support the contrary."

Ravi Kumar, an MLA of the Dalit Panthers of India, says the focus of the debate on Sethusamudram project should have been on whether it is environmentally safe and economically beneficial. He feels this has got sidetracked. "Tamil Nadu has no popular tradition of Ram worship. In villages, they worship local deities...only recently have Hanuman statues sprung up—along the highways. But they have no cultural roots," he says.

But why is Karunanidhi targeting Hindu gods, asks political analyst Cho Ramaswamy. "His remark is an exercise in perversion. Why doesn't he question the immaculate conception or some of the other beliefs in other religions? All religions should be respected."

Interestingly, the average Brahmin Outlook contacted is not as affronted by Karunanidhi's remarks as his brethren in the rest of the country. For him, his own ritualistic worship of Rama and the DMK's atheist approach have coexisted—for decades together.
ram setu
Ram is back in action. The ups and downs of dragging the icon for political gain. Updates
Smita Gupta
ram setu
'The UPA has only approved the alignment for the project cleared by the NDA -- as many as six BJP ministers associated with this decision'
ram setu
Ram's treatment of Sita, who suffered for no fault of hers, doesn't wash well with women today
Anuradha Raman
sangh parivar
The issue gets the BJP going but is unlikely to fuel a mass movement
Saba Naqvi
opinion
The UPA and secularists. Why else would they worry after this blooper?
Balbir K. Punj
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Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Oct 01, 2007 12:00 AM
115
I think this is a political attempt to create differences between the North and the South Indians. The divide has been vanishing due to integration, but the politicians like MK revives these with irrelevent examples, and tries to divide. The intention of collecting votes on the bodies of divided Indians should be pulled down. Ramanavmi is a major festival even in the south of India, and there are numerous examples that prove that Rama is respected there. This article falls prey to the MKarunanidhi's attempt to garner votes. Please publish more considerate articles.
K Rahul
Motihari, India
Sep 29, 2007 12:00 AM
114
For DMK, Ram existed (if at all) 17 lakh years ago and hence there is nothing wrong in destroying the bridge. 60 years bak an idiot called Ambedkar headed the constitution committee and created reservations. It it so sacred that none of the political pigs would like to change it to suit the current situation. Will these politicians dare touching one mosque or church encroaching on the public roads? Shame on these Dravidian idiots including Periar and his clowns.
Ram
Vancouver, Canada
Sep 28, 2007 12:00 AM
113
Talk about hidden agendas- if this Pushpa 'iyengar' is the same as the MPCA ( madhya Pradesh Christian Association) President quoted here, there is good reason for hindus to get provoked.


http://www.hvk.org/articles/0996/0130.html
radesh rangarajan
chennai, India
Sep 28, 2007 12:00 AM
112
Ghulam: your 'crocodile tears' for BJP are unwarranted. If Soni and Sonia can try to 'exploit' the anti-bjp sentiment [due to their opportunistic opposition to the nuclear deal] to send Ram out of history along with ram-sethu using ASI, nothing wrong if bjp tries to 'politically exploit' the resurge enthusiasm for Ram, all-over, except for DMK/DK/PMK ravan sangh.

Sonia/Soni exploitation, religious, for elimination of all hindu unity and hinduism, is one thousand times more serious than bjp exploitation of ram-resurge for its political comeback to power. In fact, nationalist hindus like me are worried that whenever bjp seems to have good chances of win, casteist, commercial, corrupt and criminal elements, 'waiting to make hay when the sun shines, might join the party and get seats, sending the country further down into the obc-reservation drain. Good for the country if bjp wins a slim majority without excessive popularity; then, it will have only honest and nationalist elements in it and will perform governance with some discipline and development orientation.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Sep 28, 2007 12:00 AM
111
Gulam:>>"Such paranoia in minorities may be understandable, but creating such fears in an overwhelming majority takes some doing.'

A disunited majority, its magnitude seriously in doubt because of a large [difficult to estimate] crypto-chr hidden element [with names even more sanskritized than normal hindus and bindis even larger than those of regular devoted hindu ladies!], fighting within itself furiously over caste, language, region, river waters, the urban-rural divide and what-not, becomes actually a collection of very small minorities, each even smaller than the moslem votebank in any state,]unless fortuitously united by some emotion like the kargil attack from pakisthan or the attack on Ram from Soni and Sonia. If you have real sympathy for the plight of hindus in India, you will understand. The 'overwhelming majority' is only a statistical perception, not real on the ground. 'Survival of hinduism' concerns of the RSS etc are quite justified.

I only wish the RSS could organize its 'saakha' gatherings of committed youngsters, periodically, during the vacations in schools, in the border districts of the country, to wake up popular attention to infiltration dangers and in maoist-naxal districts to tell the people that these 'yechuries' have no 'sitaram' in their minds, only ThaaTaka and Raavana, and that they are only running a parallel anti-national governance, by extortion of contributions from people under threats of violence. Army training camps, NCC camps should also be preferably held in border or mao/naxal districts, to enlarge the appearance of the presence of law and order, youth discipline, and sense of nationality and national security in such districts.

Military men selling govt kerosine in the open market, and attacking police who stop them, must be immediately court-marshalled and shot down in public view, nationally televised. The defence minister must take action immediately.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Sep 28, 2007 12:00 AM
110
Seshadri,

>> If Soni and Sonia can try to 'exploit' the anti-bjp sentiment .... to send Ram out of history ...

I do not agree with your basic premise. It is too outlandish, too paranoid. In politics, we have opponents, not deadly enemies. Many Muslims think that the Parivar wants to eradicate Islam from India. Many Hindus think that the Congress wants to destroy Hinduism. What kind of country have we become?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Sep 28, 2007 12:00 AM
109
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Why does GF oppose this idea of separate liveing if it results in peace, and permitting muslims to live in their traditional life style.

This little Jinnah has been advocating massive population transfers and further partitions in the service of his hare-brained detestable apartheidist schemes of pursuing ethnic purity!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Sep 28, 2007 12:00 AM
108
Scatological investigations are not fun. But Alok Thakore dissects this oppressively conformist peice of turd of a story with biting humour:


http://www.thehoot.org/...Hoot14049%20AM2695&pn=1


Sample this:

"May be there is something proprietary in the method that Outlook used and it does not want to reveal how it contacted the average Brahmin. But what about gender? Were all the Brahmins males? "His bretheren", "for him" and "his own ritualistic practice" are the three references to the Outlook average Brahmin. Tut, tut! Here was one chance for Outlook to redeem itself. May be the Brahmin women may have had a different view. May be that would have been a nice contrast to the male Brahmin view. Or is this is a good case for illustrating, what feminist scholars have pointed out, that public opinion has always been a male opinion. After all the word "public" is etymologically linked to "pubes", meaning adult men and hence implying the masculine. Or may be there should be an additional gloss that Outlook fails to provide. Brahminism is such a masculine ideology that has interpellated the consciousness of Brahmin women that the average Brahmin is a male Brahmin whatever be the sex."
Narsing Gowd
Secunderabad, India
Sep 28, 2007 12:00 AM
107
Faruki >>> "It is much easier to reprimand the Danes than to reprimand a coalition partner. Highly principled approach is something we demand from our opponents, never from ourselves. Not much has been said by your side about Advani's cynical exploitation of the issue for political purposes."

Again a pernicious attempt to whitewash the "psecular" Congress in appeasing the Muslims and showing no real remorse in hurting the majority sensitivities ... clearly the electoral politics at its most pathetic frippery ... and yet point the dirty fingers at BJP and Advani for doing the same ... what a conceited chutzpah ...
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Sep 28, 2007 12:00 AM
106
Vijay A,

>> clearly the electoral politics at its most pathetic frippery ... and yet point the dirty fingers at BJP and Advani for doing the same.

Thanks for admitting that what the BJP and Advani are doing is "clearly the electoral politics at its most pathetic frippery".
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Sep 28, 2007 12:00 AM
105
Faruki >>> "Thanks for admitting that what the BJP and Advani are doing is "clearly the electoral politics at its most pathetic frippery"

No, my dear friend, it is yours and Congress leadership's "electoral politics at its most pathetic frippery" ... got that ...

Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Sep 27, 2007 12:00 AM
104
To Parbat Laldeng.
Your quoting Bukhari is incorrect (and I am not blaming you for it) because it is a fact that over time, kings, usurpers and idiots have added their own stuff to what is collectively called 'Hadith' and the simple proof of this is that if every 'Hadith' was indeed true, that is, it was a precept set by the Prophet, there would not be so many sects among Muslims bandying what they call 'Hadiths.' As recently as 1976, in Saudi Arabia, a 'Hadith' was added on the orders of some so called royal which is obviously incorrect as a Hadith is a record of the Prophet,s life and the Prophet passed away in 632AD. When queried, the 'royal' said, he thought the Prophet would have said what he is saying now. So much for the guarantee that every 'Hadith' is correct. Bukhari too was not a contemporary of the Prophet and though his intentions may have been very sincere, it is very likely that such incorrectness must have seeped in.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Sep 27, 2007 12:00 AM
103
SEPTIC POLITICS: Imam Ram and Ram Jehadis

http://www.ndtvblogs.co.../24/2007%206:45:44%20PM

IMMAM RAM AND RAM JEHADIS
There are enough gullible voters in India who allow political parties to exploit their economical, emotional and religious weaknesses and faith. Sixty years of democracy proves it. All political parties are guilty. Ram, Ram Mandir and Ram Setu are abused as vote winners by BJP, for example. The goal is PMO, New Delhi.
No one has questioned BJP, RSS,VHP and others like them about all the degradation they have caused to Ram by their Ram Jehad and by pocketing votes in the name of Ram. Around 1947, no one questioned Ram, whether he was a myth, a legend or a historic figure. There was great reverence for Ram. Since Hindutva jehadis have monopolised Ram, become his only defenders and advocates, Ram has suffered a huge loss in reverence. And why not? If Ram jehadis go on using Ram as vote winner for them, they expose Ram to all kinds of questions and doubts.Before Babri Masjid demolition not many people in India knew that in Ayodhya more than thirty places claim to be birthplaces of Ram! One wonders how many Rams took birth in Ayodhya! And yet one more temple is on the agenda of Ram Jehadis. Which Ram's birth place it would be? Another question: Was Ram an Indian or a foreigner like Sonia Gandhi? Yu Kanygin in his book, The Path of Aryans: The Role of Ukraine in the Spiritual History of Mankind, claims that Ram was a Druid born in northern Baltic regions. He came to India asked by a voice from heaven to do so. On his death Ram was burried in Ukraine according to his wishes. Ukraine was called Ramavarta.
There is also a Ram who cut off a Shudra's head who had dared to educate himself like Eklavya, who was lucky to escape by losing his right hand thumb only. And the Ram who took his queen to jungles with him. He failed to protect her. Then instead of defending his queen, exiled her again when a dhobi made some derogatory remarks about her. The question is: Which Ram is their God, about whom these Ram jehadis are waging jehad, as elections seem imminent and PMO once again the target?Another question: How many of these Ram Setu defenders have ever made a journey to Ram Setu to offer their devotion? Now perhaps they would suddenly get the idea to build even a temple there as well! Perhaps they would wait till next elections for Ram setu temple!Poet Iqbal has sudenly become a hot favorite of BJP leaders who tire not quoting him for saying Ram as Imam e Hind! They are welcome to do so. But Ram as Imam e Hind? Really? If Ram is Imam e Hind he cannot be a God! Imam is not God! Imam is only a priest. Ask any Imam of any masjid. Isn't there a Imam of Jama Masjid in Delhi too?
Moreover, Mr Advani and others who use Ram as a vote winner for them have no right to cry Jehad against those who raise questions about Ram. As long as they use Ram as election winner, all Karunanidhis have the right to ask who is Ram? What is Ram?Those who cannot face questions about Ram should better confine Ram to temples, pujas and their hearts. Don't impose Ram on all Indians. Let all the Indians live in peace and harmony, with and without Ram.Playing politics with Ram may be convenient for a party but destructive for India. It's anti-India, anti-national, anti-national integration.
sanjay misra
Tumkur, India
Sep 27, 2007 12:00 AM
102
To Francis Minj.
As I do not know everything about the Catholic faith, I am not in a position to give the comparison of the love and respect that Muslims have for Mother Mary vis a vis them but, as a Muslim, I can tell you this that the Holy Qur'an states the virginity of the Holy Mother and the miraculous birth of Jesus. The name of the Holy Mother appears very, very often and with great honor and praise.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Sep 27, 2007 12:00 AM
101
To Francis Minj.
I agree with you 100% and I even mentioned that while addressing Dipak Bose as to why should people add fuel to fire by drawing in Christians and Muslims into this when it is entirely a matter within the Hindu community. Of course, every right minded person,irrespective of faith, does condemn Karunanidhi for his remarks.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Sep 27, 2007 12:00 AM
100
"I can tell you this that the Holy Qur'an states the virginity of the Holy Mother and the miraculous birth of Jesus. "

The Quran does not say that. It says that Jesus was not born to a virgin and that he was not a son of God and that he was not crucified but only a look alike.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Sep 27, 2007 12:00 AM
99
Ganesan,

What Azeem said is absolutely correct.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Sep 27, 2007 12:00 AM
98
O Fernandes, the co-convenor of Coastal Action Network and director of the Human Rights Advocacy and Research Foundation interview in


http://specials.rediff....ws/2007/sep/26slid2.htm


Please read the interview.

Just see the amount of information the govt has hidden and not revealed to the public.

O.Fernandes has requested Prof MS Swaminathan to come out in the open and oppose on scientific and environmental grounds. Please all those who read this , here is the web site of Prof MS Swaminathan (www.mssrf.org. Please request by emails to Prof MS Swaminathan the scientific and economic aspects revealed in the interview by O.Fernandes.

Infact Fernandes is very right about the fish species and livelihood of lakhs of fishermen.

After reading this you will find how as told by Fernandes that the print media has ignored these aspects until the infamous affadavit of removing Ram from the Hindu Pantheon was more an exercise in countering BJP than tackling the the real issues of environment , biosphere and creating hell of an atmosphere to the lovely fishes and their masters the fishermen.

Writing all jingoistic journalism looks like putrid shit, when you read the right on the spot interview of O. Fernandes. A true environmental bhakta.

gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Sep 27, 2007 12:00 AM
97
I have no problems with questions about Rama and about Ravana and how CM of TN is a person who is an atheist and questions the whole thing. I am asking for consistency. Does he dare it against Islam and Christianity? I have never seen him come out and say that. It shows how shallow he is. I feel that he dares to show his atheism against hinduism in TN as it is so divided that it does not affect him politically. He would not do so if they were united, so it is nothing to do with his opinion but what he can get away with. Shows what politics is anywhere in the world nowadays.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Sep 27, 2007 12:00 AM
96
Chaitanya
sure. i am proud to be a brahmin. equally proud to be a tamil and hindu and most proud of sanatana dharma. that makes me feel a true part of the universe. Being comfortable in one's identity does not lead to dislike of others. It is only when others impinge on your identity or try to beat you with it, that you need to stand up and fight.
when you have been talking so much sense most of the time, how can you be gullible enough to fall into the trap of hindu baiters? Their strategy is to split hindus as brahmin and non-brahmin; scheduled castes vs other castes; north vs south and state vs state. All the time- the godless communists, the hate mongering fundamentalists of christian and muslim faith ( i do not count the peaceloving and genuine christians and muslims, they are our good friends - but they are far too few!)consolidate themselves , unite and attack Hinduism from every side.
The dravidian vs aryan myth has been exploded in full as a creation by paid agents of the British - eg. max muller. Slaves of Macaulay and the devious pinko psecularist/communist mafia have kept these myths alive to fragment Hindu society and keep it divided. Do some google reading on that.
radesh rangarajan
chennai, India
Sep 27, 2007 12:00 AM
95
Radesh Rangarajan,

Without going into the finer details of aryan-dravidian classifications, and it's disproval or otherwise, one can safely assume that India is composed of people from different cultures and the whole thing is combined to give a delicate yet unified feeling as the cultures have existed in tandem for a long time now. I am asking simple yet pertinent questions.

Why are some(or more) south indians portrayed as apes in ramayana?

Why are some(or more) of the people down south are portrayed as rakshasas(non human) in ramayana? Does not that amount to racism ingrained in ancient north indian psyche persisting even now in many forms? Maybe the north indian posters here can help me with those queries.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Sep 27, 2007 12:00 AM
94
Now north Indians are compensating for it by becoming Rakshasas and apes.
pear
mumbai, India
Sep 27, 2007 12:00 AM
93
Faruki

One would be right to have strong reservations on you addressing every one who speaks for India's collective conscience as "Sanghi" and taking up issues that constitute our civilizational and cultural bedrock and substratum as BJP's "cynical plans to extract political advantage".

I do not really want to have a bash with you because of your irritating and rapacious habit of nitpicking, but let me ask you ...

Why this "secular" govt of Sonia Maino Gandhi and her inamorato orphaned children of Marx are silent on Karunanidhi insulting Lord Rama while issuing warnings and expressing deep displeasure on [prophet's] cartoons that were not even drawn in India ...

... why special quota/reservation regime based on one's religion/caste ... why condemn Modi for Gujrat yet ignore Godhra ... why not hang Afzal ... why not resettle Pundits in their ancestral homes in Kashmir ... why Haj subsidies for Muslims and nothing for other religious pilgrims ... why only Congress is allowed the use of tricolour as its flag, why not other parties ... why every where in the country and the capital there are streets and squares named after a Nehru or a Gandhi ... why at every single opportunity abuse BJP/RSS/VHP as "communal" yet keep mum and do nothing about the real communals in our society ... the list is endless ...

If this is not "extracting political advantage" then what is it ...
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Sep 27, 2007 12:00 AM
92
. why special quota/reservation regime based on one's religion/caste ... why condemn Modi for Gujrat yet ignore Godhra ... why not hang Afzal ... why not resettle Pundits in their ancestral homes in Kashmir ... why Haj subsidies for Muslims and nothing for other religious pilgrims ... why only Congress is allowed the use of tricolour as its flag, why not other parties ... why every where in the country and the capital there are streets and squares named after a Nehru or a Gandhi ... why at every single opportunity abuse BJP/RSS/VHP as "communal" yet keep mum and do nothing about the real communals in our society ... the list is endless ...
Why BJP is not speaking loudly against the quotas and support anti reservationists fully?

Do you expect that Modi should not be condemned but praised?
Ignoring Godhra. They conducted an inquiry. The railway ministry.
Afzal hanged is more dangerous than Afzal alive.
Resettling of the pundits did not take place during the BJP regime also. When given an opportunity why did not they do it?
Better that Indian Government subsidize Haaz than some Saudi terrorist do it. And the benefit goes even to our national carrier. And why did not the BJP stopped the subsidy summarily during their regime?

For historical reasons the tricolor is used by the Congress. What is there in a color? BJP loves its saffron and it can add a splash of green to it.

No one prevents BJP from naming other important national installations and every road it may construct, every airport it may develop to name after its leaders? That includes universities, hospitals etc.

Why BJP/RSS blame the Congress as anti hindu at the drop of a hat? That may be the reason for the congress to blame BJP and Co. as communal. To be fair vice versa.
pear
mumbai, India
Sep 27, 2007 12:00 AM
91
Mr Pear

Your responses are counter-productive to the argument ... why blame only BJP for being "communal" and "extracting political advantage" while Congress and the Leftists do the same ...
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Sep 27, 2007 12:00 AM
90
Vijay A,

>> addressing every one who speaks for India's collective conscience as "Sanghi"

He is the editor of an RSS publication.

>> Why this "secular" govt of Sonia Maino Gandhi and her inamorato orphaned children of Marx are silent on Karunanidhi

Coalition politics I suppose, but Congress spokesperson clearly dissociated Congress from Karunanidhi's offensive remarks.

>> why only Congress is allowed the use of tricolour as its flag

It was the Congress flag before it became the national flag.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Sep 27, 2007 12:00 AM
89
Ghulam F

Ok ... Tarun Vijay is the editor of an RSS publication ... does it mean that what he writes is just as put it "sanghi" only .. is he not telling the truth what you have phrased as "Hinduism khatre mein" ... well let me tell you that "Hinduism" could never become in "khatre mein ..." as the Islam frequently does ...

Dissociation from Karunanidhi in what way ... has any one in the Congress party publicly told him so ... like the govt did to the Danes ...

The tricolour with Ashoka Chakra in the middle was declared a national flag by the AICC meeting in Karachi in 1931. By default it became the Congress flag too because it was the only party representing the whole nation at the time ... but with a big difference, the charkha (spinning wheel) instead of chakra. After independence, the Congress party had the complete monopoly on both. People were not even allowed to fly it over their homes or shops ... only the govt buildings and ministers could fly it over their white ambassadors ... this was the nature of the Congress party after independence ... what a shame ...
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Sep 27, 2007 12:00 AM
88
Ok ... Tarun Vijay is the editor of an RSS publication ... does it mean that what he writes is just as you put it "sanghi"
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Sep 27, 2007 12:00 AM
87
Hindus have become the whipping-boy of the Communist-Cong regime headed by Christian Sonia and her butt-licking coterie of Anti-Hindu Christian Ministers and CMs and their Communist allies, the loyal servants of Beijing.
Hindus are responsible for this sad state of affairs - they are the majority, so it's Hindus who voted for these traitors - they are directly responsible for participating in their own demise.
Bodh
Springfield, United States
Sep 27, 2007 12:00 AM
86
Vijay A,

>> "Hinduism" could never become in "khatre mein ..."

Yes, but the tone of Tarun Vijay's article is the opposite.

>> Dissociation from Karunanidhi in what way ... has any one in the Congress party publicly told him so ... like the govt did to the Danes.

" 'Nobody should make any statement that hurts the sentiments of any section of the society,' Congress general secretary Janardhan Dwivedi, a confidant of party president Sonia Gandhi, said in a brief statement." It is much easier to reprimand the Danes than to reprimand a coalition partner. Highly principled approach is something we demand from our opponents, never from ourselves. Not much has been said by your side about Advani's cynical exploitation of the issue for political purposes.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Sep 27, 2007 12:00 AM
85
>> Ok ... Tarun Vijay is the editor of an RSS publication ... does it mean that what he writes is just as you put it "sanghi"

I called him a "sanghi journalist", which he is. Here is my post :

"Sanghi journalist Tarun Vijay's dirge in the TOI again shows that the BJP cynically plans to extract maximum political advantage from the Ramsethu blooper by creating the bugaboo of "Hinduism khatre mai hai!" Such paranoia in minorities may be understandable, but creating such fears in an overwhelming majority takes some doing. A party that could have been a responsible centrist party is instead degenerating into an opportunistic sectarian cabal."
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Sep 27, 2007 12:00 AM
84
"There are much fewer Ram temples than Shiva temples in TN, and even in Kerala."

Do you guys have any idea how many Vishnu temples are there in TN? The number of temples for Krishna is also very less. That does not mean tamilians dont worship Krishna.

Look at the opposite. Tamil Nadu has more Ganesha temples and statues than any other place in India. That does not mean the people in North do not worship Ganesha. And moreover a typical pooja room will have pictures and idols of almost all Gods and Godesses. This"strategy" of measuring popularity based on temples is foolish-it ignores the culture and the history of how the temples came about.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
83

>>> Rama is seen as an invader not above chicanery who vanquished the 'Dravidian' king Ravana

Ravana was born to the Aryan Brahmin sage known as Vishrava. His mother was the Daitya princess Kaikesi

>>>> While Rama questioned Sita's chastity leading to her agnipariksha,

Once again is “agnipriksha” mentioned anywhere in Ramayana???? It is only part of Tulsi Das Ramachritramanas. And that book is not “Ramayana”.

Now lets check at the IQ levels of leaders who are questioning Rama and Ramayana. Would you name your child after a person who had killed 20 million people???? Well Tamil Nadu CM Karunanidhi did he named his son after a “mass murderer” STALIN who killed his own 20 million people.

Its amazing the Indian people choose such “sick minds” as their leaders and adhere to their weird ideologies. What do expect in a state where the rulers have “mass murderers” like “Stalin” and “Mao” as mentors and heroes…………….
gill
NY, United States
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
82
this magazine is the shit of a diseased dog, and all you gutless anonymous cockroaches discussing and tolerating the wretched views of this filthy rotten shit magazine, go and hang yourselves. you have no future and your chilren will be like you, dirty rotting pigs
rajkumar
bangalore, India
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
81
Cho Ramasamy's argument sounds bizarre for two reasons. One, he claims that no one questions the virginity of Mary. He doesn't know that Protestant Christianity exists in this world. Two, by saying this he is inciting another communal disharmony. Is he doing that in reaction to TN Govt's decision for reservation for Dalit Christians?
Francis Minj
Berkeley, United States
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
80
"Cho Ramasamy's argument sounds bizarre for two reasons"

I think Cho is wrong in making the assumption that a criticism of hinduism should involve a criticism of other religions. I also used to ask the question "Will they say similar things about Islam"?

But that line of reasoning is wrong. You can criticise hinduism without criticising Islam or Christianity. Just as I can criticise Islam without balancing it with an attack on hinduism. Karunanidhi is within his rights to question Ram's historicity without dragging Virgin Mary. Whether MK's criticism has any merit is a different question.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
79
To Francis Minj.
I am indeed surprised that Protestants do not believe in the Virgin Mary. Every Muslim believes in it too. It is cleaqrly stated in the Holy Qur'an.
To Ganesan.
I beg to disagree with you on the comments by Cho Ramswamy. He does have a point when he questions why is it that Karunanidhi who is an atheist takes pot shots at Hinduism and not other faiths. In all probability because he can get away with it quite easily. It, nevertheless, is very wrong indeed for him to have hurt the sentiments of millions of Hindus. He is welcome to his beliefs but also has a duty to respect the faith and sentiments of others.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
78
Azim Taqi,
True, Protestants and Muslims do honor Mother Mary, so do the Hindus;one can see that in Marian sites in India itself. But do all honor her like Catholics do? MK's stand has political consequences; that's another story. He has done damage to Hindu sentiments. But should anyone else add fuel to the fire? THAT IS THE QUESTION!
Francis Minj
Berkeley, United States
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
77
To Dipak Bose.
Arre friend, why are you expanding the scope with...' do Christians and Muslims want to live in peace or do they want a Sri Lanka like situation'. Where do Christians and Muslims come into this? is Karunanidhi a Christian or a Muslim? Have the two communities anything to do with the Dravidian angst as expressed in this article? Every right minded person, no matter what his faith, condemns Karunanidhi.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
76
Karunanidhi has the right to question, but saying where did Ram get his civil engineering degree is like asking Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci ( April 15, 1452 – May 2, 1519) a prominent Italian polymath: scientist, mathematician, engineer, inventor, anatomist, painter, sculptor, architect, musician and writer, as to where he got all his degrees to work in all categories.

Karunanidhi is suffering a syndrome of the subconcious mind ruling his concious mind. In his subconsious mind he has hatred, which occassionally mouths fire at the ones he hates most.

Did he get a PhD ( worked one) to write his flowery Tamil? He was awarded one. Did he go thru a rigorous levels of higher degrees in Tamil to write well.

Did Dhrubhai Ambani go to Harvard Business School to start and create such a large corporation?

Laloo Yadav, did he go to some great financial school , to turn around the railways and make Harvard and business school pundits take notice of him

Knidhi can look at his own state , one example is the great Kamaraj . Kamaraj was not educated even for high school certificate. But the quantum of work he did for Madras is unsurpassed by many of his successors. Here you have in the 15th century and 20th century ( in India), persons who have done extraordinary things without having basic degrees in the area. F

For this statement of Rama having a civil engineering degree , Karunanidhi deserves to be condemned and he should retire from public life.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
75
karunanidhi is very old, he is impotent also, he is a eunuch, he always was, stalin was produced when his driver enjoyed his wife

to show to the world that he is not impotent, he married repeatedly

do u remember when jayalalitha got him arrested, how he was crying and wailing and showing his dirty rotten teeth with his stinking mouth wide open, like a rabied dog who eats rotten, putrid flesh

all women hated and left him because he has wounds on all his body , with worms festering in them

because of this situation, he has become irritable

he needs to be paraded naked before his followers, then they will know he is a namard (eunuch) and is suffering from STD, and they will leave him to die in his own vomit

rajkumar
bangalore, India
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
74
RAO:>>"Seems like Outlook has been hired by the UPA government for damage control. Most articles in this issue support the DMK line of thinking."

Exactly. A lady who calls herself 'iyengar', selfdeclared casteist south-indian brahmin has been chosen to write the antibrahmin, divide-hindus, piece, to add emphasis in furthering the objectives of the christendom dynastic party, whoe prince has just been 'annointed'.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
73
Shivkumar:>>" Few of the demons crossed the sea using the same bridge and they came and settled down."

After vibheeshana got crowned, not a few, but most of ravana-fond rakshasas moved into what is now tamil nadu and made it a conflict-region, dvandva-mandala, thondai mandalam. Some sanity and devotion was restored in all castes only after vyasa was reborn as tiruvalluvar, along with sister avvaiyar, and 18 vaishnavaite alwars and 63 saivate naayanmaars were born by the blessings of vishnu and siva respectively. But then, problem has started after one of ravan's heads arrived as ramaswamy-periar and now, kara, dooshana and triSiras are here operating thro karunanidhi, rama-doss and the tri-headed congress! God does keep India, especially TN, busy as karma-bhoomi!
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
72
Shivkumar:>>" Few of the demons crossed the sea using the same bridge and they came and settled down."

After vibheeshana got crowned, not a few, but most of ravana-fond rakshasas moved into what is now tamil nadu and made it a conflict-region, dvandva-mandala, thondai mandalam. Some sanity and devotion was restored in all castes only after vyasa was reborn as tiruvalluvar, along with sister avvaiyar, and 18 vaishnavaite alwars and 63 saivate naayanmaars were born by the blessings of vishnu and siva respectively. But then, problem has started after one of ravan's heads arrived as ramaswamy-periar and now, kara, dooshana and triSiras are here operating thro karunanidhi, rama-doss and the tri-headed congress! God does keep India, especially TN, busy as karma-bhoomi!
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
71
>> Just as I can criticise Islam without balancing it with an attack on hinduism. Karunanidhi is within his rights to question Ram's historicity without dragging Virgin Mary.

Actually, no. As a citizen, of course he enjoys that right. As I mentioned in an earlier post, criticism of our heroes has been part of our tradition, and has found form in academic as well as popular culture.

Once he decides to run for office though, and gets elected as chief minister, he binds himself to certain conditions. Whatever be his personal beliefs, he has to be reticent when he expresses them publicly. Just like Modi is wrong when he says "Hum Paanch, hamaare pacchis" in public, Karuna is wrong about his current utterances.

Of course, balancing by criticizing other faiths does not make it right. The point Cho is bringing up however, is the same as what was mentioned by P.V. Indrasen in an article in the Express recently. That it is easier to criticize Hinduism, its beliefs, and its followers, since the cost (primarily political) is low.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
70
Gill:>>"Ravana was born to the Aryan Brahmin sage known as Vishrava. His mother was the Daitya princess Kaikesi"

Right, but ravan's mom was called maayaavati, dtr of maalyavan. The demoness forced the rishi [kubera's dad] to copulate with her, threatening death otherwise, got ravan, kumbakaerna around midnight. vibheeshana, born early mrg, became normal devout human rishiputra. She left the rishi with her 3 sons, to her own father. She forced the rishi to parent her kids, only to ensure greatness in them. Bec she was rakshasic, the babies stood up as kids soon after birth. Perhaps, maayaavati is now compensating as CM of UP, bringing brahmins and dalits together, to annul the effects of periarism there earlier.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
69
Gill:>>"CM Karunanidhi did he named his son after a “mass murderer” STALIN "

My own suspicion is that stalin is short for 'sthaanulinga odhuvar'; MK belongs to the caste of odhuvaars, saivite devotional singers of 'thevarams', meaning garlands to god, in temples.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
68
"Whatever be his personal beliefs, he has to be reticent when he expresses them publicly"

You have a point. It is far better for politicians to stay out of the theological disputes. That is for ordinary citizens like us. Not a job of elected official.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
67
>> You have a point. It is far better for politicians to stay out of the theological disputes.

Precisely.

Even amongst ordinary citizens, irritation occurs against those who claim to be secular, but choose to speak very selectively. For example, the rants of Togadia might be much more perverse and crude than say of Teesta. She is the one though, who claims a high moral ground, and hence, attracts more derision.

I personally believe that in the long run, such people cause greater harm to secularism.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
66
>>>"While Rama questioned Sita's chastity leading to her agnipariksha, Ravana is seen as the man who never violated her although he abducted her and took her away to his kingdom, Lanka. "

Rama made Sita take agnipareeksha to demonstrate her purity to the world, knowing well that her divinity will be respected by the fire god, as he did; ravan did not molest Sita, only because of a curse that he will be burnt out if he touches any woman without her consent, no chivalry involved!

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
65
>>>"The Tamil Nadu countryside is exposed to folk forms that celebrate Ravana as a hero and Rama as the villain who treated women unfairly."

Certainly NOT. Sheer falsehood.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
64
>>" there was a person over 17 lakh years ago—his name, Ram."

Only 7000 yrs ago. Yugas are miscalculated by a factor of 365, on the basis of some invalid concept that one year for humans is one day for the divines.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
63
Few years ago, a person named "Pushpa Iyengar" used to be the spokesperson for christian missionaries in Madya Pradesh. If the author of this article is the same person, then the spirit of this article can be understood. She is just one more christian fanatic with a Hindu name, like Kancha Ilaiya and others. Just ignore her.
R. Srivatsan
Newport News, USA
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
62


>>>"The beheading of Tadaka, the killing of Shambuka, the banishing of Sita etc were considered instances of Aryan racism and barbarity."



ThaaTaka was a man-eator demoness, deserved to be killed; Ram hesitates to kill the woman, does, only when strongly advised by his guru , who did not want to break his yangjna in process by using his spiritual powers to kill her.

Shambuka went into penance with advanced mantras without taking gayatri first; his tapasya would only have invoked more demons on the land, not any divines; Ram saved his land by killing him; gave him also spiritual liberation in the process, he might have taken to get it, if at all.

Banishment of Sita was to demonstrate raja-dharma, kings placing popular will above personal interests or happiness. Anyway, Ram and Sita were divines in avatar, not real humans craving for marital pleasures.

Today's dynastic nasty politicians and their agents cannot understand this.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
61
>>"There are much fewer Ram temples than Shiva temples in TN, and even in Kerala".

True. But there are many high profile vishnu temples in the south, the Iyengar lady must know, Ram is vishnu's avatar. Sreerangam, Tirupathi, Guruvayurappan, Udipi Krishna, to name a few.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
60
>>"Rama's rather unhappy tale is one reason for this, points out Dr A.R. Venkatachalapathy of the Madras Institute of Development Studies.

This man ought to change his name, at least, to ravana-sena-pathy or something like that. The Madras inst of deveopment studies has never had anything to do with 'development' in any sense of the term. Just a post-retirement haven for brahmin-baiters, even if they are brahms themselves, willing to bow to the antibrahmins in power and cook up theories like the above.



>>"The popular belief is that worshipping Rama will bring grief"

Utter nonsense. When I was about 9 yrs old, I got drowned in a kerala river called karumpuzha, while bathing in a family group. I went down saying 'ram, ram', as per parental advice for difficult moments. A young man by name 'Raman' found me under a rock brought me out, still alive to write this at age 73.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
59
>>" Ravana is highly venerated as a Vedic scholar, a connoisseur of music, a warrior—as an epitome of everything moral. In short, Ravana is a tragic hero, not a villain."

True. A great scholar, devotee of Siva, unbeatable warrior, admired by ramas himself. Agastya brought rama the bramhaastra to kill him. Only weakness in him was the attraction towards pretty women. Spiritually, he was only a divine. lord vishnu'sd doorman, born as raakshasa to give hidden leadership to evil forces, only to show that, eventually, only truth and justice will win.

Both Jaya and Vijaya have now been re-established as the Lord's doormen.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
58
>>"Rama, a Kshatriya loyal to Brahminism"

Nothing wrong, in Rama's days, rishis, seers, the 'paarppaans' in Tamil, were respected by the rulers in those days, because they led austere lives , unselfish; gave advice only when asked; rishir bhavet raajaguruh, prucchataam eva vaacanam. Today, brahmins are selfish, the landlord/warlord type OBCs are criminal. Neither deserve respect now.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
57
A mischievous, malicious and evil piece by the lady claiming to be Pushpa Iyengar. The DMK and DK are essentially hate cults, placing the blame for all the imaginary historic ills of a few intermediate castes on the Brahmins. They have always excluded the dalits and other lower castes to enrich themselves. By following the Goebbelsian technique of lying and then repeating lies ad nauseum, they have been able to fool gullible psuedo intellectuals of the type of Pushpa - whether it is about Rama or the evils of brahminism. They have managed to make political capital from this for 60 years and fattened themselves and their families as super efficient parasites. Fact is, the intermediate castes from which the Dravidian parties claim their strength are the most guilty of caste evils like untouchability and exploitation of dalits. A clear case of the Pot calling a non stickware kettle black.
Why the hell must Outlook conduct a survey of Brahmins response to the insults on Ram. if you are sincere- do it for all Hindus. Ram is common to all Hindus and non-Hindus of truly secular outlook .Even the depraved Asuric ones who form the bulk of DK and DMK and those fishing in troubled waters like the Outlook team, cannot escape the omnipresent shadow of Ram, who defines our national character.
The article seems to play off hindus aginst each other and gives undue prominence to perverted views of Hate mongering individuals of the Dravidian parties.
As for points-
1.Rama killed Ravana ( who was a brahman - who became asuric in nature and hence defined as a rakshasa- like many people now)
2. Vanaras- who may represent people of the south are clearly portrayed as Heros and allies of Rama
3.Sri Lanka- as even a moron ought to know- has always had ethnic connections with Kalinga or Orissa from time immemorial.
4. Rama- took an avatar as a Human. So he displayed some frailties- but was the most manly of men and hence a superman. His flaws ( eg. killing Vali) serve to increase his stature, because he himself is the benchmark and no other.

As for Karunanidhi- he is no atheist/ rationalist. He takes potshots at Hindus since they are divided and confused- and of course never violent. Karunanidhi does not dare to question the virgin birth myth or the ressurection story. Nor will he question Prophet Mohammed's direct conversations with the Angel Gabriel. Karunanidhi does yoga every day, (probably chants a mantra or two in private- because Yoga is steeped in Sanatana Dharma), and at all times sports a bright yellow towel on his shoulder. Oh No!!! This must be the new improved form of rationalism!
radesh rangarajan
chennai, India
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
56
>>"Rama, a Kshatriya loyal to Brahminism"

Nothing wrong, in Rama's days, rishis, seers, the 'paarppaans' in Tamil, were respected by the rulers in those days, because they led austere lives , unselfish; gave advice only when asked; rishir bhavet raajaguruh, prucchataam eva vaacanam. Today, brahmins are selfish, the landlord/warlord type OBCs are criminal. Neither deserve respect now.

>>"kills Shambuka, a Shudra, for doing penance"
Already explained.

>>" Rama is deceitful in killing the monkey king Bali;"
Vali hadf sinned living with brother's wife; deserved kill; could be killed only from hiding, bec of boon he had got from bramha, which Ram also had to respect.

>>"and the Ramayana is an allegorical story of the northern conquest of the south"

The rishis of dandakaaranya were the real dravidians, not the rakshasa demons from rasaatala. They were the 'seers' of the divine driver 'rudra' in his action; ritam dravayati iti rudrah; dravaNam vedti iti draavidah. raakshasas like vaadaapi/bilvala, kara, dooshana, triSirsa, ravana's friends, were haraasing the dravidian, Saivaite rishis in the south. Rama came south for 14yrs only to free the rishis in distress, would have gone back after 14 yrs to ayodhya; but bec of the soorpanaka episode, ravan came and abducted sita, got killed before Ram's return to ayodhya. Seeing racialism in this is only the churchian conversionist's trick, nothing more.



v.seshadri
chennai, india
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
55
Well pointed out Srivathsan, I am sure this woman Pushpa is a paid agent of mischief making missionaries who of course work hand in hand with the hate cults of DK and DMK.
radesh rangarajan
chennai, India
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
54
The most surprising thing about DMK's opposition to Ram's story is that they consider him "Brahminical" (whereas it was Ravan who was a Brahmin, and this fact has been put in all versions of Ram's stories (whether it is Tamil or Telgu or Sanskrit or any other language).
Another funny thing is that while DMK is opposed to Vedic culture they talk about worshipping Ravan (who has been mentioned as a great Vedic scholar in all versions of Ramayan or other stories related to Ram).
DMK folks are opposing just for the sake of opposing. Their opposition and their arguments are as foolish as Lalloo answer on why he and Rabri produced 9 children (they said that they were opposed to Govt policy of family planning).
skdonweb
Bangalore, India
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
53
There are more Rammurthys in Tamilnadu than Ravanmurthys.
pear
mumbai, India
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
52
J, you will be happy if they drove in bullock carts and holiday in their native villages? The communists work for the poor driving in luxury cars and relaxing in caribbean islands. There are two ways to serve the poor. One, the Gandhian way. The other the modern marxist way.
pear
mumbai, India
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
51
Mr V.SESHADRI ad any one who is interested:

You may find this web site quite interesting hosted by Dr. Padmanabhan Rao:


http://www.angelfire.com/sc3/1010/vedic.html
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
50
The dravidian movement corrected the various inequalities the harsh way but it went for over correction.
pear
mumbai, India
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
49
I found Shivkumar's blog quite hilarious. All the demons crossing the sea and settling in demonland sorry Tamilnadu. And Perian's..... I do not know Ravan is a Brahmin. Where is his birth certificat? Ravan must have been a giant like the films show. Vedanti is Ram and Karunanidhi is Ravan not with ten heads but with nearly ten wives.
pear
mumbai, India
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
48
I found Shivkumar's blog quite hilarious. All the demons crossing the sea and settling in demonland sorry Tamilnadu. And Perian's..... I do not know Ravan is a Brahmin. Where is his birth certificate? Ravan must have been a giant like the films show. Vedanti is Ram and Karunanidhi is Ravan not with ten heads but with nearly ten wives.
pear
mumbai, India
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
47
Radesh Rangarajan:

"Vanaras- who may represent people of the south are clearly portrayed as Heros and allies of Rama"

Being a brahmin, you can take respite in the fact that you will not be judged as a vanara. What about the rest of us? Vanaras? It doesn't really matter if vanaras as portrayed as heroes if the joke is on us south indians being ape looking people. As i said in one my previous posts, Karunanidhi is representing genuine grivenaces of people who were subjugated in such a racist way. Get it brahmin.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
46
We need some jokes at our expense or at others. Otherwise life will be dull, Chaitanya. In the first place he is a Telugu and he looked ok in his younger days. His clan in andhra do not share his beliefs. And we are all descendents of the ape according to some scientist.
pear
mumbai, India
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
45
Pear:

"His clan in andhra do not share his beliefs."

That might be true(he being a telugu) but that might have been centuries ago that his forefathers might have came down and settled in now tamilnadu. I never knew Karunanidhi uttering Telugu. Jayalalitha though not a Telugu, is proficient in the language and had at several occasions communicated through it on the floor of the TN legislative assembly house. Karunanidhi on the other hand is a lot more bigoted than a average tamil from south tamilnadu. He doesn't represent a telugu guy in his features or behaviour(he has to afterall model himself as a tamil looking guy if he wants to appeal to the tamils). About his "clan" in Andhra, that might be long lost. Andhra has no space for dravidian politics just because of the fact that it is not in the extreme south of india like tamilnadu is(where greivances and fears, known and unknown are constantly piled up). Otherwise, things would have been viceversa.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
44
Pear:

"And we are all descendents of the ape according to some scientist."

Well, if valmiki could make up crap like some or many south indians being apes, what's wrong if karunanidhi squares the deal by calling ram a drunkard. Sure, we might all be descendants of apes. That's not the point.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
43
E.V.Ramasamy or periyar, annadurai, karunanidhi,vaiko, veeramani all have telugu/andhra roots. vaiko speaks telugu even now in his house. E.V.Ramasamy and karunanidhi are from a pious hindu background.
perian
chennai, india
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
42
Chaitnya, Valmiki and Karunanidhi are not contemporaries for Karunanidhi to take a swipe at him. Karunanidhi simply wants to score brownie points. I feel monkeys are much better than human beings because with their limited brains they function nicely and we with our unlimited brainpower also unable to lead saner lives.
pear
mumbai, India
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
41
For example Subramaniam swamy.
pear
mumbai, India
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
40
Srivatsan:>>"Few years ago, a person named "Pushpa Iyengar" used to be the spokesperson for christian missionaries in Madya Pradesh. If the author of this article is the same person, then the spirit of this article can be understood. She is just one more christian fanatic with a Hindu name, like Kancha Ilaiya and others"

There is one aspect we should very much appreciate about moslems in India. When hindus are converted to islam, they change their name also to an islam-like one, so that we know they are no longer hindus. But, when converted to christianity, they do not change names, retain highly sanskritized names, tilaks on lady foreheads etc. This would be alright if they take hinduism and christianity as sister religions under the same Absolute, like some hindus who visit velankanni [mother Mary] temples also. But actually, they have strong anti-hindu attitudes, work to degrade or destroy hinduism, like probablly crypto-chr 'Ambika' Soni, trying to send Ram also out of history along with Ram-setu with help from ASI. If only hindus converting to christianity will call themselves with names such as John Sundaram or Margaret Alva, for full clarity of their religious affiliation, to command everybody's respect as nationalist indian christians, there will bebmuch higherv transparency and friendship in national social life.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
39
These names obviously mislead. Our YSR also known by a very hindu name. People mistake them for liberal, secular hindus like Panditji which they are not.
pear
mumbai, India
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
38
"In a nation's life, alienation and collective amnesia go hand in hand. But amnesia tinged with revenge is found in the Left-driven secular notions we are burdened to face. And here is a regime that not only conveniences those revenges but also forces a kind of selective amnesia on its citizens in its pursuit of power through vote banks of religion and caste. It forgets that the national life seeks energy from its cultural roots and tributaries of civilisational grandeur and pride."

"The forced selective amnesia by the Left and its facilitation by the ruling conglomeration which is horribly blinded by the immediate goals of holding on to the political power has created a situation where Gods of the majority are the easiest targets to have some fun, and draw sadistic pleasure without fearing a backlash or reaction. In crude words those who fear death from the Islamists show off their brevity on Hindus by lampooning and defiling their icons of faith with semi-literate analyses."

"Those who justify Naxal's violence (economic backwardness, corruption et al) and Osama's jihad (American bully, anti-Muslim policies, no cultural freedom to wear veils et al), would do well to study growing helplessness and accumulating anger amongst a large section of unorganised Hindus who are bewildered to see how a chief minister abuses their God and the'friendly' central government having an alliance with it keeps silence, though it issued warnings and expressed deep displeasure on cartoons that weren't drawn in India."

"We always wanted to live in peace. But who attacked us? From Qasim to Kargil? We saw our own people defiling Vande Mataram , a song for the nation, denouncing lighting of the lamp as an evil Hindu ritual, Saraswati project being dismissed as a myth propounded by Hindu communalists and goddesses on scotch bottles."

"No community and society has faced continuous torture and brutalities like the Hindus since last many centuries. And the nightmare is not ending even after a partitioned Independence.

The war has been announced between those who live in Mother India and revere her as a living entity and those who live here treating the place as a platform. Accepting the challenge and taking it to the logical end is the only way left for every Indian, who may belong to any faith but respects the nation, which has provided space for every stream , including agnosticism.

There is no other nation like ours, what stops us to prove worthy of her?"

read tarun Vijay - Ram-Ravan War II:

http://timesofindia.ind...articleshow/2404555.cms



Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
37
VIJAY AGARWAL:

Is it not a good thing that there is no other country like India, as Tarun Vijay boasts?

Otherwise, where would Hindus migrate to?
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
36
Vijay Agarwal, that was an incisive and forthright analysis. To take an appropriate example from Ramayana- Rama meditates on Varuna and humbly requests him to allow a passage for his army to Lanka. When Varuna ignores his plea, Lord Rama twangs his bow and vows to teach him a lesson. Varuna comes whimpering and offers to show the way a bridge can be built. Tolerance is being construed as incapacity. Hindus need to unite and show their might and that enough is enough. Hindu- baiters like Karunanidhi and people furthering this hate agenda, bearing misleading and fraudulent identities like Pushpa Iyengar need to hear the twanging of the bow- Public revulsion and rejection.
radesh rangarajan
chennai, India
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
35
Ghulam:

Do you dare deny that SKDONWEB's account from Bukhari of a stoning of an allegedly adulterous couple ordered by Mohammed proves Mohammed's stark inhumanity? Even Idi Amin would have been ashamed to act like that.

Even Bukhari must have thought so in his heart as che notes that he saw the man shielding the womn from the stones.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
34
It's true that political parties like congress are increasingly being controlled by foreign rooted entities or take ideological inspiration from them. India is again waiting to be sold and most of it's population utterly divided in all ways. But guys like Tarun Vijay and his ilk lack the honesty when it is most in demand. They represent devious interests themselves. I am sure with honesty you can reach to all groups including downtrodden and cornered. Advani could have increased the presence of BJP in south if he had learnt a south indian language. But he wouldn't and that tells a lot.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
33
Sanghi journalist Tarun Vijay's dirge in the TOI again shows that the BJP cynically plans to extract maximum political advantage from the Ramsethu blooper by creating the bugaboo of "Hinduism khatre mai hai!" Such paranoia in minorities may be understandable, but creating such fears in an overwhelming majority takes some doing. A party that could have been a responsible centrist party is instead degenerating into an opportunistic sectarian cabal.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
32
Parbat,

>> account from Bukhari of a stoning of an allegedly adulterous couple.

We all have emerged from very brutal pasts, however much we may try to whitewash our own. Dredging them up for one-upmanship games does not behoove us. Are we preparing for accommodation or for armageddon?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Sep 25, 2007 12:00 AM
31
Ganesan,

>> I am a brahmin. But now I want to know whether I am average, above average or below average.

You are definitely above average in my book.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Sep 25, 2007 12:00 AM
30
"You are definitely above average in my book. "

Thanks!!
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Sep 25, 2007 12:00 AM
29
Perian

Here you go, Ravana's origins

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravana

All details are given in the above web site.

He was giant in size , due to the throwback of genes from his maternal side. See below

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daitya


I have been going to the library here to read the English translations of Ramayana written by Tamil scholars. Almost all have wriiten the same as written in the wikipaedia section. So as an product of Daitya and Rishi lineage, he mastered Vedas , was scholar in music , with all the physique obtained from the maternal side.

What one feels is that, just to divide India, this ploy was conducted by the colonoliasts and the vulnerable were a prey to this. The advent if internet as turned the world back to pluralism , which has been an hallmark of India from ancient times.

gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Sep 25, 2007 12:00 AM
28
Mr Raja

Periyars suggestion that a political leader should have no children.

This can be seen of the great Kamaraj, who did so much for the erstwhile Madras. Kamaraj was a batchelor and during my stay in Madras, Kamaraj was vanquished, by silly coalitions and due to the foolish imposition of Hindi ( I feel , if it was not forced , then at present with so much connectivity of TV and other gadgets, there would have been no problems. Many would have learnt Hindi). On this point I agree with Periyar , especially for India as personalities should lead by example. If the head of stste thinks more about his family growth than the Prajs's growth,then he or she will be engaged only in vendetta, keeping spies in the party as to who is anti his/her son and then hatching conspiracies etc , etc. This was no good work will be done for the state.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Sep 25, 2007 12:00 AM
27
The article claims, "In fact, Rama is seen as an invader not above chicanery who vanquished the 'Dravidian' king Ravana who, when viewed through DMK bifocals, comes through as a more humane character".
So if this is true, then why Dravidian Tamils in SriLanka, which is country where Dravidian king Ravana ruled, have to fight a gruesome battle, earlier for eqality & now for a seperate Tamil Elam?
Abhijit Kane
Mumbai, India
Sep 25, 2007 12:00 AM
26
Vedanti made a stupid statement. How can you behead somebody who is headless? Whether Ram existed or not is a personal belief. After Rama killed Ravana according to Ramayana then Vibhishana became the king. Few of the demons crossed the sea using the same bridge and they came and settled down. One of the demons is Karunanidhi and his clan.

If at all anyone is to be arrested and jailed it is the CM of Tamil Nadu, who has the audacity to berate and insult Hindus at large. He has a right to his beliefs as an individual but not as a CM. He is most welcome to resign and propagate his beliefs. As a CM, he is also misusing government machinery. Poor man, he has to do some thing "novel" to protect his clan. Karunanidhi should be arrested on charges of inciting and hurting religious sentiments, inciting Communal violence, vandalism and arson of BJP office in Chennai and causing public unrest. Karunanidhi is a shameless traitor and a Jingo who thrives on hatred of non-tamilians, anti-hindi, and anti-Hindus. Karunanidhi and his bunch of mythical Dravidian gang of goons have brought shame to rest of the people of Tamil Nadu who are nice people. Valmiki never mentioned that Rama was addicted to liquor nor he consumed it at any time in his life although he was Kashtriya by birth. It is not known from where Mr. Karunanidhi has picked up and cooked up this story to insult the Hindus

In Tamil there is a saying "Mamiyaar Odachcha Mangalam, Mattupen Odachcha Vengalam", meaning if mother-in-law breaks a pot it is auspicious and if the daughter-in-law breaks the pot it is a bad omen. This is precisely what is followed by DMK and more so its leaders. A person of Karunanidhi's stature sitting in the Chief Minister's seat making derogatory statements about Ram and kindling the religious sentiments of the vast majority of people should control his tongue. He just cannot speak as per how the tongue twists.

Karunanidhi says he is pressurising the Supreme Court on Setu Project, which means he is arm-twisting even the Highest Court of the land. The Honorable judges should take note of his statement. He runs his party only for his family welfare and not for Tamil Nadu.
shivkumar
Mumbai, India
Sep 25, 2007 12:00 AM
25
Shivkumar:

"After Rama killed Ravana according to Ramayana then Vibhishana became the king. Few of the demons crossed the sea using the same bridge and they came and settled down. One of the demons is Karunanidhi and his clan."

It seems more like you are denigrating the Tamil people. Because, whatever the faults of Karunanidhi, he is a product of Tamil society and the demons who crossed over and are living in India that you refer to, are most likely tamils(sri lankans are "closest" to tamils compared to other Indian people). If you want to attack Karunanidhi, why don't you just fix the attack just to him and not bring factors that can be identified with tamils in general. You know, what you are trying to do is racism. Maybe there is some sense in Karunanidhi's statement afterall when guys like you are around.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Sep 25, 2007 12:00 AM
24
Seems like Outlook has been hired by the UPA government for damage control. Most articles in this issue support the DMK line of thinking.
Vishwanath Rao
Bangalore, India
Sep 25, 2007 12:00 AM
23
Actually the problem is more complicated.In north India, hatred and fear towards muslims exist due to the history of the region.(frequent invasions by various muslim rulers and demolition and looting of many temples and ill treatment to hindus supposed to be brahmins and kshatriyas- a fact many muslim scholars/intellectuals deny/hide).Like wise in south india, especially in tamil nadu a deep hatred/suspicion/dislike exists towards things and people (especially brahmins) perceived to be north oriented. for this also, history of the region is the reason . Unlike other indian languages, tamil is fully or mostly independent of sanskrit. Its oldest literature predates other south indian languages by atleast thousand years (to 100 B.C). The oldest literature or sangam literature is generally secular.only traces of influence by Jain and buddhist values is found. A great degree of purity, uniqueness and independence got maintained in the language and vocabulary.tamil society was also highly peaceful and independent.But things started to change from sixth century A.D onwards when vedic hindu sanskritic culture started to influence the region through brahmins supposedly from north.tamil region became a battle field of religions.finally the saivaite culture evolved from this influence decimated jainism and buddhism in the most ruthless manner . this is similar to the turbulence caused by islamic invasion in the north. the saivaite culture's decimation of jainism and buddhism did'nt restrict itself to tamil region alone. it spread to other parts of south east asia with cholas. srilanka became most affected. A number of buddhist viharas were demolished and monks killed. the holy city of anuradhapura was ravaged and renamed as jananathamangalam/sananathamangalam to glorify saivaite culture. caste system became very rigid in tamil region. brahmins assumed the top place in the hierarchy.tamil language was pushed to second place and sanskrit assumed dominance in religious practises much to the fuming of tamil scholars. Some brahmins in high places were said to be conspiring in toppling governments and killing kings.After twelfth century, tamil region was subjugated, divided and ruled by outsiders like andhraites, marathas, wodeyars, nawabs etc with the help of brahmins. brahmins grip on the society became stronger and stronger. their position was unquestionable. only during british period, tamil region became unified as madras presidency and tamils became majority in that region.Even then, brahmins were in unquestionable position in social life as usual.Their share in administration, judiciary etc in british india was highly disproportionate to their population. problems started from there with the formation of justice party by some rich upper caste non- brahmins. Now anything from north is disliked as it is generally associated with brahmins.Moreover, North indians are highly aggressive and ignorant about other regions including the history, language and culture. They are socially, economically and educationally backward but politically dominant as they are more in number and due to the place given to them by constitution of India.when south indian states were organised on language basis, tamils were the people most affected. even today there is no celebration of the so called 'state formation day' as like other states. all these have led to too much state patriotism, affection for tamil language, suspicion on other state people/outsiders and hatred for brahmins. majority of tamil nadu people are pious hindus, no doubt but at the same time they don't follow the hinduism of brahmins.this is the tradition.(In my community, traditional way marriages are conducted without fire, without brahmins and without sanskrit slokas. only tamil vazhthu of some three hundred lines are uttered at the ceremony) since brahmins follow the hinduism of cow belt, automatically the feeling against them becomes anti- north.that's all.
perian
chennai, india
Sep 25, 2007 12:00 AM
22
DMK chief karunanidhi is from a community called isai vellalar which has its root in andhra.isai vellalar community's main profession is to play musical instruments in temple festivals (like nagaswaram, ghatam etc). Some also sing songs and hymns to god. His father is said to be a good nagaswaram player and a good devotee. karuna is from that sort of back ground. But a section of that community do indulge in barber profession. And in another section of that community, devadasi system existed. that system was brought to an end by the so called dravidian movement. generally isaivellalar community comes only under 'sutra' categorisation of the caste system. Due to all these reasons karuna has a deep rooted hatred for brahmins and hinduism. occassionally he spits fire to prove this.
perian
chennai, india
Sep 25, 2007 12:00 AM
21
Perian:

"when south indian states were organised on language basis, tamils were the people most affected. tamils were the people most affected. even today there is no celebration of the so called 'state formation day' as like other states."

I am just curious as you said this few times before too. Can you tell me on what basis you say that Tamils were most affected during separation of Madras Presidencyon linguistic basis?
chaitanya
chennai, India
Sep 25, 2007 12:00 AM
20
The Success of dravidian movement

1. Success of Tamil Brahmins than any other brahmin community of other state ( It is because they accepted the fact that Periyar was right on his doctorine)
2.Success of Non- Brahmin than any other state in india
M V Raja
Bangalore, India
Sep 24, 2007 12:00 AM
19
Mr Perian
It is all good to cast Ravana as a good persona. But Ravana was a Brahmin and Ramayana clearly states that Rama built a temple for Shiva as an atonement for killing a Brahmin.

I have lived in TN during those days of the chappal procession of Periyar . I am a Maharashtrian. I used to ask people in Chennai (erstwhile Madras) why these anti-Brahmin zealots are worshipping Ravana, a Brahmin.

The whole idea has been transplanted into the leaders by the rulers then , who wanted to divide India by projecting Rama as a North Indian and Ravana as a South Indian for the Aryan Dravidian divide.

Then there is something very wrong in the premise of the Primordial Dravidian soup laid down by Father Periyar, by projecting Ravana , a Brahmin as a hero. Father Periyar was the first to raise the anti Brahmin movement in South India , and he and his followers making Ravana a hero looks ridiculous.

There is a heavy turbidity in the Primordial Dravidian soup in this issue. The best way is to centrifuge this turbidity once for all and then talk sense.

If Brahmins are regarded also as "ARYANS" ( a very false theory according to modern genetics) , then surely Ravana must be one, which defeats the very purpose of praise for Ravana and outbursts against Rama right from 1920's.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Sep 24, 2007 12:00 AM
18
Mr Perian
If it was for projecting an enemy's [( Rama for the Primordial Dravidian soup (PDS)] enemy ( Ravana to Rama) as PDS's friend , then you see Mr Perian the question turns full circle as to ask why Father Periyar used this quote to praise a Brahmin (Ravana) , when he wss vitrolic in his anti Brahmin diatribe, which is being continued by Karunanidhi and his ilk. This premise is a bundle of contradictions
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Sep 24, 2007 12:00 AM
17
Mr Perian
As this premise is a bundle of contradictions, then surely it is done by vested interests.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Sep 24, 2007 12:00 AM
16
Hi Ghulam Farukhi,

Nice to know that you appreciate the "diversity" India has with reference to Ramayana in tamilnadu.
I want you to appreciate more diversity in the tamil country when it comes to Islam:

1) In many places of Islamic worship in TamilNadu,
worshippers remove their hair fully, apply tarmaric paste and worship Allah or whaterver there embeeded in the atmosphere with a Hindu spirit!.

3) they also recite Arabic verses in village Mosques for warding off evil spirits!.

3) they also tie mentally challenged people in some dargas in chains so that they are cured.

The "diversity" is thus a multi way traffic.
Hope now you can appreciate it better.

With regards,

R. Srivatsan
R. Srivatsan
Newport News, USA
Sep 24, 2007 12:00 AM
15
In puranas, Ravanan is considered only as giant not as brahmin. The belief is also same. The interpretation that he is a brahmin is new to me and iam surprised about this.
perian
chennai, india
Sep 24, 2007 12:00 AM
14
I thank Farukh miyan for striving a ‘fair’ and ‘balanced’ approached by Outlook and therefore demanding an article on Muhammad, judged by today’s standards of feminism, secularism, democracy and liberalism, so that he can rejoice in the ‘diversity’ of India some more.

I also thank VM for announcing his next issue to be on those lines where Saba, Anuradha,and Smita are reportedly working overtime to come out with such articles. Outlook is also reportedly visiting Kerala, WB, TN, AP and Maharashtra, the supposed success states and bringing out an objective report.

The issue after that will be the leap issue so, as per tradition, it will focus on the infighting within the BJP.

Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Sep 24, 2007 12:00 AM
13
Srivatsan,

What you call diversity, I call medievalism.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Sep 24, 2007 12:00 AM
12
I am a south indian. I used to hear from north indian friends that we are worshipper of Ravana.
It is as stupid as saying Hitler massacred Jews because Jews killed Jesus. Periyar who was born as a Vaisnavaite (Vaisanavites visit only to temples of Ram or Krishna or Vishnu) wanted to show common man the evil design of upper caste people´s exploitation in the name of God. His intention was against exploitation and suppression. He was against Brahminism, but never against brahmins. (Rajaji, a brahmin was his closest friend).Jayalalitha (is a brahmin) who joined Dravidian movement was accepted because of this doctorine of Periyar. Periyar always insisted the polital leader should not have childern. Karunanithi is backing his children which is against Periyar´s principle
M V Raja
Bangalore, India
Sep 24, 2007 12:00 AM
11
"He(Periyar) was against Brahminism, but never against brahmins"

Yes. Thats why he said that when you see a brahmin and a snake, leave the snake and attack the brahmin. And countless brahmins were attacked by the DK thugs just because they were brahmins.

Rajaji was a friend of Periyar. So what? How does that explain the DK people attacking brahmins?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Sep 24, 2007 12:00 AM
10
"Interestingly, the average Brahmin Outlook contacted is not as affronted by Karunanidhi's remarks as his brethren in the rest of the country"

Who is an average brahmin??????????? I am a brahmin. But now I want to know whether I am average, above average or below average. Will someone in Outlook help me with this?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Sep 23, 2007 12:00 AM
9
I am not sure where your writer got the "dravidian" king Ravana from. It's part of popular folklore that Ravana was a brahmin!!! & this is not just in the south. In the north, the Avasthis claim that they performed the puja for Ram to cleanse his sins of killing a brahmin - and were therfore banished to the hills. Maybe the DMK has not heard of this - but if they make it a caste based decision, they should be taking Ram's side and not Ravana's!!!
Nat Subramanian
newark, USA
Sep 23, 2007 12:00 AM
8
Mr Subramanian , this what happens , when interpretations are given for divide and rule. Ravana as you said is a Brahmin and Ram a Kshatriya. The Dravidian leaders were stooges to the earlier indologists who wanted to divide India on this basis , blindly accepted the whiteman's interpretation. It is a laughing matter that this Brahmin haters , whose Father Periyar also eulogised Ravana. This goes to show that ignorance and slavery go hand in hand. Once you are slave to indologists who write history like civics and civics like geography , you are head is full of vacuum. Father Periyar will surely get up from his grave to resurrect his mistake of eulogising Ravana. Many of the Dravidian ilk has followed this version of the Ramayana without even thinking critically. it is very good point Mr Nat Subra.

Pile on such vestibules of slavish megalomaniacal hsyteria arising from the Dravidian primordial soup.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Sep 23, 2007 12:00 AM
7
Long before, a teleserial named " lankeswaran " was telecasted in chennai- Doordarshan. It was made by the veteran stage actor r.s. manohar. It portrayed ravanan as a person with good qualities. The broadcasting of this serial was challenged in chennai high court. but the cult of portraying ravana as a tragic hero prevails always. the real culprit in this issue is Dr. Subramanian swamy, who filed a complaint against the project in supreme court and converting this issue into north- south divide etc.since gujarat elections are in the corner, BJP picked it up. tamil nadu people were made to feel that they are unsafe outside TN border atleast in bengalooru. Tamils and Assamese are considered to be the most pious hindus in the whole country but their brand of hinduism is region oriented and nothing to do with the hindu- muslim politics of cow-belt region. In tamil Nadu, more than ninety percent of people have the habit of giving blood sacrifice( goat or cockerel or even buffalo in some cases). It is subramanian swamy who should be blamed for all these unfortunate happenings.
perian
chennai, india
Sep 23, 2007 12:00 AM
6
Rum certainly existed, and still exists. Visit your corner liquor store to check.
As for Ram, only those whose brains are addled by Rum take his "existence" seriously. As for the rest, it's all a charade for political purposes.
Biswapriya Purkayastha
Shillong, India
Sep 23, 2007 12:00 AM
5
Interesting article. Makes us respect the diversity of India.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Sep 22, 2007 12:00 AM
4
" the Kamba Ramayanam. In it, Ravana is highly venerated as a Vedic scholar, a connoisseur of music, a warrior—as an epitome of everything moral. In short, Ravana is a tragic hero, not a villain."

Thats another pathetic lie. The Valimiki ramayana itself says that Ravana was a brahmin, that he had performed great penances and that he was a favourite of Shiva. So kamban did not invent anything new there.

As for being a tragic hero, for the first time I am hearing this interpretation from someone after reading the Kamba Ramayana. Even Annadurai and Karuanidhi, who hold on the belief that Ravana was a dravidian do not use Kamban in any way to support their case. On the contrary they are dead set against him because he glorifies Ram. That is a simple thing known as fact. Its a dirty four letter word which Oulook might want to check on.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Sep 22, 2007 12:00 AM
3
No,
mr Ganesan is wrong.kamba ramayanam, though venerates rama highly, gives equal importance to ravana also. of course, the phrase which mentions
" tragic hero " is very correct. One who reads kamba ramayanam will not only conclude ravana but also kumbakarnan as a tragic hero as the tamil phrase " senjottru kadan " is very popular in literary meetings.In fact, i have heard another version from few tamil professors that ramayana is the war between vaishanvaites and saivaites. it is unfortunate that religion is used by political parties to stall a developmental project which benefits south tamil nadu and whole India in long run.
perian
chennai, india
Sep 22, 2007 12:00 AM
2
"One who reads kamba ramayanam will not only conclude ravana but also kumbakarnan as a tragic hero as the tamil phrase " senjottru kadan " is very popular in literary meetings"

The phrase you mentioned is usually associated with Karna. This is because in some versions of the Mahabharatha in tamil(especially written by Villi Alwar) Karna is seen as someone who fought the war on Duryodhanan's side only because he felt obligated. But according to these versions, Karna's heart was actually with the pandavas-a claim that can never be supported by Vyasa's Mahabharatha.

I repeat. This is the first time I have heard anyone saying that ravana comes out as a tragic hero out of Kamban's work. Not even Annadurai and Karunanidhi, who thought Ravana was a great guy and who have studied Kamba ramayan in depth, have reached that conclusion.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Sep 22, 2007 12:00 AM
1
The root of the matter is that the dravidian movement was a simple Hate movement with the objective of uniting non-brahmins except the dalits and cornering coveted educational avenues and govt jobs. It succeeded by the Nazi technique of focussing all blame and hate on the Brahmins. Brahmins were isolated, humiliated and driven out of the state. With jew like tenacity, they refused to die and resurfaced as businessmen, NRIs and delhi based govt officials.
Having achieved its objective the dravidian movement has run its course and is now aground. ADMK is run by a brahmin and no one objects or cares.
Karunanidhi and his ilk spew venom more out of habit than out of conviction. In fact the apathy and indifference in Tamilnadu indicate the level of importance given to his view.
radesh rangarajan
chennai, India
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