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Essay
Science And The Islamic World
With well over a billion Muslims and extensive material resources, why is the Islamic world disengaged from science and the process of creating new knowledge? It was not always this way.

This article grew out of the Max von Laue Lecture that I delivered earlier this year to celebrate that eminent physicist and man of strong social conscience. When Adolf Hitler was on the ascendancy, Laue was one of the very few German physicists of stature who dared to defend Albert Einstein and the theory of relativity. It therefore seems appropriate that a matter concerning science and civilization should be my concern here.

The question I want to pose--perhaps as much to myself as to anyone else--is this: With well over a billion Muslims and extensive material resources, why is the Islamic world disengaged from science and the process of creating new knowledge? To be definite, I am here using the 57 countries of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) as a proxy for the Islamic world.

It was not always this way. Islam's magnificent Golden Age in the 9th–13th centuries brought about major advances in mathematics, science, and medicine. The Arabic language held sway in an age that created algebra, elucidated principles of optics, established the body's circulation of blood, named stars, and created universities. But with the end of that period, science in the Islamic world essentially collapsed. No major invention or discovery has emerged from the Muslim world for well over seven centuries now. That arrested scientific development is one important element--although by no means the only one--that contributes to the present marginalization of Muslims and a growing sense of injustice and victimhood.

Such negative feelings must be checked before the gulf widens further. A bloody clash of civilizations, should it actually transpire, will surely rank along with the two other most dangerous challenges to life on our planet--climate change and nuclear proliferation.

First encounters

Islam's encounter with science has had happy and unhappy periods. There was no science in Arab culture in the initial period of Islam, around 610 AD. But as Islam established itself politically and militarily, its territory expanded. In the mid-eighth century, Muslim conquerors came upon the ancient treasures of Greek learning. Translations from Greek into Arabic were ordered by liberal and enlightened caliphs, who filled their courts in Baghdad with visiting scholars from near and far. Politics was dominated by the rationalist Mutazilites, who sought to combine faith and reason in opposition to their rivals, the dogmatic Asharites. A generally tolerant and pluralistic Islamic culture allowed Muslims, Christians, and Jews to create new works of art and science together. But over time, the theological tensions between liberal and fundamentalist interpretations of Islam--such as on the issue of free will versus predestination--became intense and turned bloody. A resurgent religious orthodoxy eventually inflicted a crushing defeat on the Mutazilites. Thereafter, the open-minded pursuits of philosophy, mathematics, and science were increasingly relegated to the margins of Islam. 1

A long period of darkness followed, punctuated by occasional brilliant spots. In the 16th century, the Turkish Ottomans established an extensive empire with the help of military technology.


Ottoman Empire astronomers working in 1577 at an observatory in Istanbul. This painting accompanied an epic poem that honored Sultan Murad III, who ruled from 1574 to 1595. The observatory was demolished in 1580 after astronomers sighted a comet and predicted a military victory that failed to materialize. The poem was published a year later. (For more on ancient Islamic astronomy, see the American Institute of Physics online cosmology exhibit)

But there was little enthusiasm for science and new knowledge. In the 19th century, the European Enlightenment inspired a wave of modernist Islamic reformers: Mohammed Abduh of Egypt, his follower Rashid Rida from Syria, and their counterparts on the Indian subcontinent, such as Sayyid Ahmad Khan and Jamaluddin Afghani, exhorted their fellow Muslims to accept ideas of the Enlightenment and the scientific revolution. Their theological position can be roughly paraphrased as, "The Qur'an tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go." That echoed Galileo earlier in Europe.

The 20th century witnessed the end of European colonial rule and the emergence of several new independent Muslim states, all initially under secular national leaderships. A spurt toward modernization and the acquisition of technology followed. Many expected that a Muslim scientific renaissance would ensue. Clearly, it did not.

What ails science in the Muslim world?
Muslim leaders today, realizing that military power and economic growth flow from technology, frequently call for speedy scientific development and a knowledge-based society. Often that call is rhetorical, but in some Muslim countries--Qatar, the United Arab Emirates (UAE), Pakistan, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Nigeria among others--official patronage and funding for science and education have grown sharply in recent years. Enlightened individual rulers, including Sultan ibn Muhammad Al-Qasimi of Sharjah, Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani of Qatar, and others have put aside some of their vast personal wealth for such causes. No Muslim leader has publicly called for separating science from religion.

Is boosting resource allocations enough to energize science, or are more fundamental changes required? Scholars of the 19th century, such as the pioneering sociologist Max Weber, claimed that Islam lacks an "idea system" critical for sustaining a scientific culture based on innovation, new experiences, quantification, and empirical verification. Fatalism and an orientation toward the past, they said, makes progress difficult and even undesirable.

In the current epoch of growing antagonism between the Islamic and the Western worlds, most Muslims reject such charges with angry indignation. They feel those accusations add yet another excuse for the West to justify its ongoing cultural and military assaults on Muslim populations. Muslims bristle at any hint that Islam and science may be at odds, or that some underlying conflict between Islam and science may account for the slowness of progress. The Qur'an, being the unaltered word of God, cannot be at fault: Muslims believe that if there is a problem, it must come from their inability to properly interpret and implement the Qur'an's divine instructions.

In defending the compatibility of science and Islam, Muslims argue that Islam had sustained a vibrant intellectual culture throughout the European Dark Ages and thus, by extension, is also capable of a modern scientific culture. The Pakistani physics Nobel Prize winner, Abdus Salam, would stress to audiences that one-eighth of the Qur'an is a call for Muslims to seek Allah's signs in the universe and hence that science is a spiritual as well as a temporal duty for Muslims. Perhaps the most widely used argument one hears is that the Prophet Muhammad had exhorted his followers to "seek knowledge even if it is in China," which implies that a Muslim is duty-bound to search for secular knowledge.

Such arguments have been and will continue to be much debated, but they will not be pursued further here. Instead, let us seek to understand the state of science in the contemporary Islamic world. First, to the degree that available data allows, I will quantitatively assess the current state of science in Muslim countries. Then I will look at prevalent Muslim attitudes toward science, technology, and modernity, with an eye toward identifying specific cultural and social practices that work against progress. Finally, we can turn to the fundamental question: What will it take to bring science back into the Islamic world?

Measuring Muslim scientific progress
The metrics of scientific progress are neither precise nor unique. Science permeates our lives in myriad ways, means different things to different people, and has changed its content and scope drastically over the course of history. In addition, the paucity of reliable and current data makes the task of assessing scientific progress in Muslim countries still harder.

I will use the following reasonable set of four metrics:

  • The quantity of scientific output, weighted by some reasonable measure of relevance and importance;
  • The role played by science and technology in the national economies, funding for S&T, and the size of the national scientific enterprises;
  • The extent and quality of higher education; and
  • The degree to which science is present or absent in popular culture.

Scientific output

A useful, if imperfect, indicator of scientific output is the number of published scientific research papers, together with the citations to them. Table 1 shows the output of the seven most scientifically productive Muslim countries for physics papers, over the period from 1 January 1997 to 28 February 2007, together with the total number of publications in all scientific fields. A comparison with Brazil, India, China, and the US reveals significantly smaller numbers. A study by academics at the International Islamic University Malaysia2 showed that OIC countries have 8.5 scientists, engineers, and technicians per 1000 population, compared with a world average of 40.7, and 139.3 for countries of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. (For more on the OECD, see http://www.oecd.org.) Forty-six Muslim countries contributed 1.17% of the world's science literature, whereas 1.66% came from India alone and 1.48% from Spain. Twenty Arab countries contributed 0.55%, compared with 0.89% by Israel alone. The US NSF records that of the 28 lowest producers of scientific articles in 2003, half belong to the OIC.3

The situation may be even grimmer than the publication numbers or perhaps even the citation counts suggest. Assessing the scientific worth of publications--never an easy task--is complicated further by the rapid appearance of new international scientific journals that publish low-quality work. Many have poor editorial policies and refereeing procedures. Scientists in many developing countries, who are under pressure to publish, or who are attracted by strong government incentives, choose to follow the path of least resistance paved for them by the increasingly commercialized policies of journals. Prospective authors know that editors need to produce a journal of a certain thickness every month. In addition to considerable anecdotal evidence for these practices, there have been a few systematic studies. For example,4 chemistry publications by Iranian scientists tripled in five years, from 1040 in 1998 to 3277 in 2003. Many scientific papers that were claimed as original by their Iranian chemist authors, and that had been published in internationally peer-reviewed journals, had actually been published twice and sometimes thrice with identical or nearly identical contents by the same authors. Others were plagiarized papers that could have been easily detected by any reasonably careful referee.

The situation regarding patents is also discouraging: The OIC countries produce negligibly few. According to official statistics, Pakistan has produced only eight patents in the past 43 years.

Islamic countries show a great diversity of cultures and levels of modernization and a correspondingly large spread in scientific productivity. Among the larger countries--in both population and political importance--Turkey, Iran, Egypt, and Pakistan are the most scientifically developed. Among the smaller countries, such as the central Asian republics, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan rank considerably above Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, and Kyrgyzstan. Malaysia--a rather atypical Muslim country with a 40% non-Muslim minority--is much smaller than neighboring Indonesia but is nevertheless more productive. Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the UAE, and other states that have many foreign scientists are scientifically far ahead of other Arab states.

National scientific enterprises
Conventional wisdom suggests that bigger science budgets indicate, or will induce, greater scientific activity. On average, the 57 OIC states spend an estimated 0.3% of their gross national product on research and development, which is far below the global average of 2.4%. But the trend toward higher spending is unambiguous. Rulers in the UAE and Qatar are building several new universities with manpower imported from the West for both construction and staffing. In June 2006, Nigeria's president Olusegun Obasanjo announced he will plow $5 billion of oil money into R&D. Iran increased its R&D spending dramatically, from a pittance in 1988 at the end of the Iraq–Iran war, to a current level of 0.4% of its gross domestic product. Saudi Arabia announced that it spent 26% of its development budget on science and education in 2006, and sent 5000 students to US universities on full scholarships. Pakistan set a world record by increasing funding for higher education and science by an immense 800% over the past five years.

But bigger budgets by themselves are not a panacea. The capacity to put those funds to good use is crucial. One determining factor is the number of available scientists, engineers, and technicians. Those numbers are low for OIC countries, averaging around 400–500 per million people, while developed countries typically lie in the range of 3500–5000 per million. Even more important are the quality and level of professionalism, which are less easily quantifiable. But increasing funding without adequately addressing such crucial concerns can lead to a null correlation between scientific funding and performance.

The role played by science in creating high technology is an important science indicator. Comparing Table 1 with Table 2 shows there is little correlation between academic research papers and the role of S&T in the national economies of the seven listed countries. The anomalous position of Malaysia in table 2 has its explanation in the large direct investment made by multinational companies and in having trading partners that are overwhelmingly non-OIC countries.

Although not apparent in Table 2, there are scientific areas in which research has paid off in the Islamic world. Agricultural research--which is relatively simple science--provides one case in point. Pakistan has good results, for example, with new varieties of cotton, wheat, rice, and tea. Defense technology is another area in which many developing countries have invested, as they aim to both lessen their dependence on international arms suppliers and promote domestic capabilities. Pakistan manufactures nuclear weapons and intermediate-range missiles. There is now also a burgeoning, increasingly export-oriented Pakistani arms industry that turns out a large range of weapons from grenades to tanks, night-vision devices to laser-guided weapons, and small submarines to training aircraft. Export earnings exceed $150 million yearly. Although much of the production is a triumph of reverse engineering rather than original research and development, there is clearly sufficient understanding of the requisite scientific principles and a capacity to exercise technical and managerial judgment as well. Iran has followed Pakistan's example.

Higher education
According to a recent survey, among the 57 member states of the OIC, there are approximately 1800 universities.5 Of those, only 312 publish journal articles. A ranking of the 50 most published among them yields these numbers: 26 are in Turkey, 9 in Iran, 3 each in Malaysia and Egypt, 2 in Pakistan, and 1 in each of Uganda, the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Kuwait, Jordan, and Azerbaijan. For the top 20 universities, the average yearly production of journal articles was about 1500, a small but reasonable number. However, the average citation per article is less than 1.0 (the survey report does not state whether self-citations were excluded). There are fewer data available for comparing against universities worldwide. Two Malaysian undergraduate institutions were in the top-200 list of the Times Higher Education Supplement in 2006. No OIC university made the top-500 "Academic Ranking of World Universities" compiled by Shanghai Jiao Tong University. This state of affairs led the director general of the OIC to issue an appeal for at least 20 OIC universities to be sufficiently elevated in quality to make the top-500 list. No action plan was specified, nor was the term "quality" defined.

An institution's quality is fundamental, but how is it to be defined? Providing more infrastructure and facilities is important but not key. Most universities in Islamic countries have a starkly inferior quality of teaching and learning, a tenuous connection to job skills, and research that is low in both quality and quantity. Poor teaching owes more to inappropriate attitudes than to material resources. Generally, obedience and rote learning are stressed, and the authority of the teacher is rarely challenged. Debate, analysis, and class discussions are infrequent.

Academic and cultural freedoms on campuses are highly restricted in most Muslim countries. At Quaid-i-Azam University in Islamabad, where I teach, the constraints are similar to those existing in most other Pakistani public-sector institutions. This university serves the typical middle-class Pakistani student and, according to the survey referred to earlier,5 ranks number two among OIC universities. Here, as in other Pakistani public universities, films, drama, and music are frowned on, and sometimes even physical attacks by student vigilantes who believe that such pursuits violate Islamic norms take place. The campus has three mosques with a fourth one planned, but no bookstore. No Pakistani university, including QAU, allowed Abdus Salam to set foot on its campus, although he had received the Nobel Prize in 1979 for his role in formulating the standard model of particle physics. The Ahmedi sect to which he belonged, and which had earlier been considered to be Muslim, was officially declared heretical in 1974 by the Pakistani government.

As intolerance and militancy sweep across the Muslim world, personal and academic freedoms diminish with the rising pressure to conform. In Pakistani universities, the veil is now ubiquitous, and the last few unveiled women students are under intense pressure to cover up. The head of the government-funded mosque-cum-seminary (figure 4) in the heart of Islamabad, the nation's capital, issued the following chilling warning to my university's female students and faculty on his FM radio channel on 12 April 2007:

The government should abolish co-education.

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Authors: Pervez Hoodbhoy
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COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
1
>> "Islam's magnificent Golden Age in the 9th–13th centuries brought about major advances in mathematics, science, and medicine. The Arabic language held sway in an age that created algebra, elucidated principles of optics, established the body's circulation of blood, named stars, and created universities."

>> "Bleak as the present looks, that outcome does not have to prevail. History has no final word, and Muslims do have a chance. One need only remember how the Anglo–American elite perceived the Jews as they entered the US at the opening of the 20th century. Academics such as Henry Herbert Goddard, the well-known eugenicist, described Jews in 1913 as "a hopelessly backward people, largely incapable of adjusting to the new demands of advanced capitalist societies." His research found that 83% of Jews were "morons"--a term he popularized to describe the feeble-minded--and he went on to suggest that they should be used for tasks requiring an "immense amount of drudgery." That ludicrous bigotry warrants no further discussion, beyond noting that the powerful have always created false images of the weak."

>> "Progress will require behavioral changes. If Muslim societies are to develop technology instead of just using it, the ruthlessly competitive global marketplace will insist on not only high skill levels but also intense social work habits. The latter are not easily reconcilable with religious demands made on a fully observant Muslim's time, energy, and mental concentration: The faithful must participate in five daily congregational prayers, endure a month of fasting that taxes the body, recite daily from the Qur'an, and more. Although such duties orient believers admirably well toward success in the life hereafter, they make worldly success less likely. A more balanced approach will be needed."

>> "Science can prosper among Muslims once again, but only with a willingness to accept certain basic philosophical and attitudinal changes--a Weltanschauung that shrugs off the dead hand of tradition, rejects fatalism and absolute belief in authority, accepts the legitimacy of temporal laws, values intellectual rigor and scientific honesty, and respects cultural and personal freedoms. The struggle to usher in science will have to go side-by-side with a much wider campaign to elbow out rigid orthodoxy and bring in modern thought, arts, philosophy, democracy, and pluralism."

An excellent article which is both a historical review and a powerful exhotation to Muslim youth.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
2
"exhortation" not "exhotation" in my last post.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
3
The contribution of Indian Muslims to science cannot be understated. Some of the best brains in Indian science have been Muslims, among them but not limited to Obaid Siddiqui, Majid Siddiqui, Rais Siddiqui, Saleemuddin Siddiqui, Salim Ali, Shahid Jameel, Israr Ahmed, APJ Abdul Kalam, M Ahmed (cardinal geometry), S.Z. Qasim, C.M. Habibullah, S.N.A. Rizvi, Mushahid Hussain.

The number of Indian Muslim graduate students and post-doctoral workers is proportional to or greater than our representation in our population.

As we have dominated the Arts (Music, Painting and Stagecraft), so will we the sciences. Moreover, since scientists tend to be objective, Muslims will be attracted more to the sciences. I see a bright future for Indian Muslims.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
4
Muslims are good for nothing..even in matters of science they are good only in changing names where decimal numerals whihc has nothing to do with muslims becomes arabic..
Rahul
Delhi, India
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
5
As a rejoinder, let me add that Indian Muslims must be thankful for living in a dynamic, pluralist democracy that is India. Without our interaction with enlightened Hindu scholars, we would be much backward.

Our experience in a pluralist India, notwithstanding right-wing irritants, has been a positive one. we must rigorously replace traditionalism with reason; religion be confined to the private domain.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
6
>> ... secular humanism, based on common sense and the principles of logic and reason, as our only reasonable choice for governance and progress. Being scientists, we understand this easily. The task is to persuade those who do not.

The author touched the crux of the problem when he makes the above closing comment. But he does not explain how he can persuade the Islamic religious leadership that “secular humanism, based on common sense and the principles of logic and reason are the only reasonable choice for governance and progress”.

The problem is not just that secular humanism is different from Islamic law - the principles of secular humanism tend to show Islamic law as less than perfect. Muhammad is supposed to have given the perfect and final revelation. If there is anything therein which is agreed to be less than the best, it is as good as rejection of Islam (to many). So, the author needs to explain how he can persuade that secular humanism is better and in fact the "only reasonable choice"?
A typical dialogue between a defender of Islamic faith and a critic of Islam usually takes this way - the critic of Islam points to aspects of teachings or law of Islam or actions of Muhammad that he finds less than perfect (based on common sense, based on developments in various fields of human knowledge etc). The way most defenders of Islam counter it is by saying that Quran is higher than human common sense and higher than findings of human knowledge/reason etc. If secular humanism is to be accepted, what will one do with the actions/teachings of Islamic theology/history which are purportedly seen as less than the best possible by principles of secular humanism? The author does not answer.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
7
>>But he does not explain how he can persuade the Islamic religious leadership that “secular humanism, based on common sense and the principles of logic and reason are the only reasonable choice for governance and progress”.

There is a simple way of doing it. In fact, many scholars take this line. A fine understanding of the sources of Islamic law will show the Quran, Hadiths and Ijma (consensus of scholars, in that order. The Islamic principle of Justice is to be used as a yardstick for defining laws.

Ghazali, though being an Asharite himself, argued strongly in favour of a reasoned response to law, chiefly that Justice alone be criterion of law. In that respect, Imam Maliki even went on to say that his interpretation of law is valid for his time only. It is ironical that Maliki school of jurisprudence holds sway over much of Arabia.

It is not only permissible, but highly desirable, within Islam, that Islamic law be defined for every age and community. The Mutazilites and many modern scholars advocate a reasoned approach to Islamic law, justice being the primary motivation for any draft.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
8
Science is Science , there is no such thing as Islamic science , Hindu science or Christian Science.

The great thing about science as Erwin Schrodinger puts in his " What is life?" treatise is you have to be "Neti, Neti" ( Not this, Not this). or as Einstein put it " Never stop questioning" . If one is ready for this , then do science.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
9
>>Science is Science , there is no such thing as Islamic science , Hindu science or Christian Science.

The notion of Islamic, Christian, Hindu science is repugnant indeed.

Science teaches us to question. It makes heretics out of us. It liberates us. It unites us.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
10
A great article that is honest in its appraisal of the present and befitting in the optimism about the future.
vijay
Chennai, India
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
11
Great article. At last somebody is saying us to do some introspection.
jaleel
luknow, India
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
12
Kumar,

>> The way most defenders of Islam counter it is by saying that Quran is higher than human common sense and higher than findings of human knowledge/reason etc.

Pursuit of learning and knowledge are highly valued both in the Quran and in the teachings of the Prophet. One of the latter goes as follows, "An hour's study of Nature is better than a year's prayers". Conceptual values such as ilm (knowledge) and ijtihad (the quest for sustained reasoning) were an integral part of classical Islam with science and reasoning at their center. The task now is to free Islam from the sway of the rigid and close-minded leaders which has lasted for too long.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
13
Faruki:

One of the latter goes as follows, "An hour's study of Nature is better than a year's prayers".

This is supposedly from the Prophet's teachings. When I quoted from Hadis, Faruki enlightened by saying the Hadis are apocryphal and the earlier biographies cannot be trusted completely. But when the quotation is favourable, the earlier sources become reliable. OK.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
14
Ganesan,

>> Faruki enlightened by saying the Hadis are apocryphal and the earlier biographies cannot be trusted completely.

I did not say anything about earlier biographies. Many of the Hadish are apocryphal, and one has to use one's head as well as go by the support a particulat Hadish receives from the authorities. The one that I just quoted is from an article in NATURE by Ziauddin Sardar.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
15
It is indeed a pity that an overwhelming majority of (not all) muslims tend to follow the edicts of mullahs who issue stone age era fatwas. It is surprising and sometimes frustrating that muslims just dont want to talk about reforms in Islam. All world religions have been reformed as per the needs of the age. But instead of modernizing and mixing with the world, Muslims are isolating themselves and turning back into the past. The few liberal voices are drowned in the noise of these taliban-like groups. As another reader had mentioned, it is indeed true that today's children are growing up with the image of islam = terror. When I was a kid, I was told to be vary of Christians because of the evangelization practices (conversion etc). But I always had a a very good impression about muslims. Now, all that has changed. Even when I look for apartments, I just skip through those with a muslim landlord or a muslim room mate. I feel ashamed of myself for doing it. But in today's world, when even moderate muslims themselves don't seem to be doing enough to help their community, it is very scary to be known to be associated with any muslim. It feels better to be safe than sorry. But I must also mention that I'm proud of the handful of moderate muslims who are well educated and who make a poaitive contribution to society. It is just hard for me to accept that they dont do enough to change the public face of Islam which makes it look as an untouchable religion by many nations in this world. Muslims must ask this question to themselves: There are so many Christian countries and one among them (although declared secular) is the super power. There is just one jewish state and a couple of Hindu-Buddhist states (some may be declared secular) and these are marching towards becoming world powers. There are SO MANY Islamic nations. There is even an OIC (or some Islamic grouping) for these nations and yet none (With the exception of Turkey) is moderate enough to march into development. So, whose fault is it?
Ashwin
Jersey City, United States
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
16
Being from a scientific world, I feel that one gets to become one if it is encouraged by family, friends, surroundings, school and college. Having studied under Steven Weinberg, I can admit that there is no way to exchange that for anything. This is for understanding, inspiration and suggestions. Unfortunately, a lot of people do not get this due to one or more of the factors I mentioned missing. This is the case for a lot of poor people in India who have to focus on survival. I wish that Islam understands that there is no correlation between religion and science. Abdus Salaam was one of the great persons in science (he got the Nobel prize with Weinberg). Muslims must determine what their focus is, understanding the world or living a predefined existence. This was a problem with Hinduism and Christianity in the past, but has receded. In fact, Weinberg (who is an atheist) said that, "Without religion, good people do good things and bad people bad ones. It takes religion for a good person to do bad things." Especially with the previous Pope's apology to Galileo for his treatment (about 400 years late), this is important for all people interested in Science.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
17
"...Extreme Hindu groups such as the Vishnu Hindu Parishad, which has called for ethnic cleansing of Christians and Muslims, have promoted various "temple miracles," including one in which an elephant-like God miraculously came alive and started drinking milk.."

My Objections -
1. He is Lord Ganesha. If you can't respect hinduism atleast respect the hindus.

2. Please give proof of when and where VHP has called for elimination of Christians and Muslims. Don't talk in air.

3. There was also a "sweet water" miracle. Was that also promoted by VHP.

I don't care for VHP but outlook should filter out such rubbish which it has been enduring (and promoting) for quite sometime now.
Gaurav
Mumbai, India
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
18
Here is some interesting story about Abdus Salaam. When he was in school in British India, he had to write a paper about Ramanujam. He said later that he was one of great inspirations for him. I wonder if he would have made it with the present day Pakistan. Granted one needs great intelligence in science, but with a billion people, that is not a problem. The problem is the poor encouragement for the students, men and especially women in this field. I see people like George Sudarshan who are close to their place in the top, obviously one will wonder why too many muslims do not get there.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
19

"According to a 2002 United Nations report written by Arab intellectuals and released in Cairo, Egypt, "The entire Arab world translates about 330 books annually, one-fifth the number that Greece translates." The report adds that in the 1000 years since the reign of the caliph Maa'moun, the Arabs have translated as many books as Spain translates in just one year.8"


Funny things is that, some donkeys from Bangalore will still die for these Arab camel.

Osama Ass Laden or Arundhati Burqa Roy will blame USA here also.
jaleel
luknow, India
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
20
Prakash,

>> I wish that Islam understands that there is no correlation between religion and science.

What you say is true. Religius quotations cited by the progressive Islamic scholars just underline the value and the importance of learning and exploration.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
21
TarunGhosh/Jash,

>> There were examples where Muslim students in Calcutta had to use Hindu name to get house rent. They used to offer Namaz shutting down door, windows. Once it was found out, they had to vacate the apartment.

Just the kind of news story that would make you proud, being the villianess that you are!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
22
Science is already complicated without religion adding another madness to it. Einstein, probably one of the greatest scientists, could not understand the Uncertainty Theory, as it was counterintuitive. This is for a person who was a pioneer in so many areas of physics. Now add the religion mess to it and see how hard things get. Some of the great scientists have had an unusual experience with religion. Paul Dirac said: "I cannot understand why we idle discussing religion. If we are honest - and as scientists honesty is our precise duty - we cannot help but admit that any religion is a pack of false statements, deprived of any real foundation. The very idea of God is a product of human imagination. ... I do not recognize any religious myth, at least because they contradict one another. ..." This prompted Heisenberg to say, "Well, I'd say that also our friend Dirac has got a religion and the first commandment of this religion is 'God does not exist and Paul Dirac is his prophet." I hope that all religions leave science, they mess up something that as already complicated enough for even brilliant people. I hope that the people of Islam understand this.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
23
TarunGhosh/Jash,

>> How many times you objected to Madrasa funding by Govt of India? Sharia Courts? Huh?

You are too stupid to see how irrelevant your stupid interjection is.

>> You spend your time in abusing Hindus and those who speak good about their culture thinking that's secularism.

Liar! Show me even one post where I have spoken ill of Hinduism. If by "those who speak good about their culture", you mean yourself, Ganpat/Bagai and Surya/Bodepudi, let me remind you that all three of you are bigots of the worst kind, who spend all your time here trashing Muslims and Islam in a most unashamed and depraved way. You are too evil a person to be considered a Hindu.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
24
Pervez Hoodbhoy has tried to be neutral and logical but will get many orthodox people really mad.

As a Pakistani ofcourse he must prescribe for his country a total acceptance of India's right to be and of its basic peaceful nature.
He should prescribe an end to nostalgia where the Mughals' ruled the roost and the Muslim aristocracy wrote the rules.
He could suggest acceptance by the Pakistani state of India's majority religion and the beauty of its vedic heritage.
This ofcourse for Pakistan.

As for the rest of the Islamic world it seems to me that the acknowledgement of Hinduism as an important mainstream religion along with Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism would be a good way of breaking the stranglehold that a belief in the right of Islam to exist as a truth above all others seems to exert.

Once the state and through it the individual has acnowledged that ones faith does not dictate the pecking order in the world, can the minds be set free to engage in all other activiies.

And incidentally VHP stands for Vishwa Hindu Parishad and not Vishnu...as contained in the copy.
And incidentally praying and doing abolutions and fasting etc can be sources of strength and mainstreamed where required.
The western scientist is many things besides: a mountaineer, deep sea diver or marathon runner, all requiring time and dedication taken from the life at the office, lab, university or whatever.

Religious practices for intelligent people are a source of private strength and not an impediment to succeed.

And yes the current Indian state could also benefit from equating the importance and separateness of the Hindu faith instead of forever talking down to Hindus while elevating muslim faith.
An important essay. Thank you.
Bindu Tandon
Mumbai, India
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
25
The book is

G G Joseph, The crest of the peacock (London, 1991.

The best web site for Indian Maths from 800 BC Baudhayana to 1690AD Jagannatha is in


http://www-history.mcs....uk/Indexes/Indians.html

Read the article by Ian G Pearce , very illuminating in the following web site


http://www-history.mcs....jects/Pearce/index.html


In the following web site Panini is considered as a mathematician due to this reference. Paninis' Grammmar in Sanskrit is backbone of the Backus form.
P Z Ingerman, 'Panini-Backus form' suggested,

Communications of the ACM 10 (3)(1967), 137.
Then access this site Ramanujan and Harish Chandra is there.

http://www-history.mcs....ps/Countries/India.html


Al-Khwarizmi is also listed in these web sites.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
26
TarunGhosh/Jash,

>>>> I had said, "Show me even one post where I have spoken ill of Hinduism."

Your answer,"Even if coal is washed 100 times, it does not change its color. So are you Islamists. It sheer wastage of my time and energy to engage you. I am discussing something good with Prakash. Either talk positive. If you want to unleash Jehad, go to Afghanistan, your ideal place!"

What kind of answer is that to my simple question asking you to show a single post in which I have said anything ill about Hinduism? All you now prove is that you are a most irresponsible, lying and hateful poster in this forum, who cannot substantiate any of the wild, false and misleading allegations that you make here so freely.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
27
I am not implying that people with faith cannot handle science. Obviously, that is silly. People like Ramanujam, Bose, Salaam have been devout but it has not hindered their output. However, the number that did not believe far outweighs the number that believed. This includes Born, Dirac, Einstein, Fermi, Feynmann, Glashow, Pauli, Weinberg, Wigner and so on, the number is huge. If you know two methods to win and one has much higher probability than the other, will you not try to figure out why this is so? That is all that I suggest. The more the influence of religion, the lower the success. This is the reason for the problems Islam has with science.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
28
Jash/TarunGhosh,

>> I had said, "Show me even one post where I have spoken ill of Hinduism."

Your reply, " Remember GR and I asked u a simple YES or NO qs to whether u called MFR an apostate.
And what was your reply. you said "SCRAM""

What kind of answer is that to my simple question asking you to show a single post in which I have said anything ill about Hinduism? All you now prove is that you are a most irresponsible, lying and hateful poster in this forum, who cannot substantiate any of the wild, false and misleading allegations that you make here so freely.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
29
The decimal system is believed to have originated in India. Arab Mathematicians – Al Khawarizmi and Al-Nasavi in 825 AD and 1025 AD respectively – refer to it as ta-rikh ai Hindi and al-amal al-Hindi.

Arab mathematicians , gave credit to India for all its achievements.

The reason for Arabs giving credit to Indians , was all due to pre 11-12th century interactions , which were all in an intellectual plane. Then somehow hell broke loose and with it started the conquests by armies. Somewhere something went wrong in direction just as it is in the present day situation. Probably the mullah and warrior class took over as it is now.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
30
"It was not always this way. Islam's magnificent Golden Age in the 9th–13th centuries brought about major advances in mathematics, science, and medicine."

This is the key, everyone at some point of time, short or long, had their golden age and then downhill from there. Following the axiom that everything that goes up - comes down eventually.

Assuming, the Renaissance, was Europe's (West) golden age, they have been able to sustain it much longer and right doesn't seem anyone is or can offer much challenge to it. I have to assume because they took Science out of Religion and also increasingly Religion became a private domain issue not as much a public domain issue.

The more pragmatic East Asians (Chinese influenced), have been more successful in this too and hence have made much more progress and impact to Science too.

Indians in this regard are probably somewhere in the middle. Though I believe there is still more of a tendency to want to look back to a golden age and recreate it (go back to the past syndrome) rather than look for a renaissance (look to the future except use the past only to the extent useful to the future).

The Muslim world does seem on this count to be going backwards to the past ONLY and hence the most in regression, primarily I have to say because Religion seems to dominate everything and be the primary definer .... essentially too much fundamentalism.
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
31
The article is quite good and well balanced.
Indranil
Kolkata, India
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
32
Kumar:
>>
If secular humanism is to be accepted, what will one do with the actions/teachings of Islamic theology/history which are purportedly seen as less than the best possible by principles of secular humanism? The author does not answer.

I think it is quite difficult to lay down a blue print, on why and how a certain community (multi racial at that) will eleviate itself.

I would rather say, the only way is to bypass the
fundamentalist views.

Even Christians (albeit to a lesser degree) say, not a single word in the Bible can be altered.
But with social developement, people do not take everything in the religious texts seriously.
Look at the advanced European nations. The people there, are mostly 'theists', and believes in Christianity, however in the public sphere religion makes very little impact.
Something in the similar lines will emerge, if muslim countries are to develop, socially, scientifically.
Indranil
Kolkata, India
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
33
Sorry!
In the last post it should be,
'I think it is quite difficult to lay down a blue print, on when and how a certain community...etc'

and not `why and how'....
Indranil
Kolkata, India
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
34
Jash/TarunGhosh,

>> moderate muslims do not exist and if they claim they are moderate,they are fraudulent CAIR ARABS like FARUKI.Hindus have too many moderates and traitors like Gandhi/nehru and pseudos.

So Muslim moderates are fraudulent, and Hindu moderates are pseudos! That clears the way for rabid bigots like you to take over!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
35
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Islamic rituals like the 5 times a day
prayers are obligatory, along with other practices.

>> The Prophet said, "An hour's study of Nature is better than a year's prayers".

>> Hoodbhoy has not said why we need religion at all.

The article is not on metaphysics.

>> Why do people have to genuflect before a 7th century text at all.

Similar practices are common in most religions.

>> Omar Khyam.The persian poet and philosopher was anti religion, and a lover of la Dolce Vita.

Not relevant to this article. Khayyam sang of liberation, whereas La Dolce Vita is about decadence.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
36
Arun,

>> increasingly Religion became a private domain issue (in Europe) not as much a public domain issue.

That is the key.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
37
Indranil,

>> Look at the advanced European nations. The people there, are mostly 'theists', and believes in Christianity, however in the public sphere religion makes very little impact.
Something in the similar lines will emerge, if muslim countries are to develop, socially, scientifically.

I would agree, though progress among Muslims will be slow and cumbersome in view of some inbuilt roadblocks.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
38
Jash/TarunGhosh,

>> This is what the evil GF stands for as per JOGI'S LINK.

Dogs will bark, but the caravan goes on!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
39
Tarun Da

Recently a film "Khuda ke Liye (for God's sake)" by a Pakistani director Shoaib Mansoor has been released starring Naseeruddin Shah which drawing large crowds in Lahore and other cities of Pakistan. You can read more about it in Outlook front page in a film review "Tales of Mullah Naseeruddin" by Amir Mir.

"When Islam is for people of all continents, Alaska and Iceland included, how can God insist on a shalwar instead of jeans or pants? Islam mein dadhi hai lekin dadhi mein Islam nahin (The beard is a mere part of the faith, not the other way round)."

I just can't wait to hear this dialogue in Urdu from Nasseruddin Shah - my favourite character-actor in Bollywood. Listening to KL Saihgal while washing before namaz eh ... what a Maulana indeed ... KKL (Khuda ke liye) definitely "is bound to widen the chasm between the liberals and the fundoos in our society."




Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
40
TarunGhosh/Jash,

>> You are a typical Muslim bigot.

Show me a single post in which I exhibit bigotry.

Your habitual lying about others is becoming too glaring.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
41
TarunGhosh/Jash,

I said, "Show me a single post in which I exhibit bigotry."
Her stupid reply, "You are bigot, because as a Muslim you have to clean the Shit what Islam has become."

Instead of giving a single example of my exhibiting bigotrty, she comes up with more bigotic hate of her own. The woman has no idea of what logic and relevance are. She thinks all she has to do is to spew hatred irrespective of context, and that would be accepted as a sensible post by others!!!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
42
Tarun da

Thanks for posting the article by Pritish Nandy. Exactly, both Vajapyee and Mahatma Gandhi being devout and good Hindus could become genuine secularists too, but Nehru and a lot of other leftists who scoff religion could only be cynic and knavish unfit to be at the helm of nation's affair ...
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
43
Prof. Hoodbhoy's article regarding the achievements of medieval Islamic scholars contains a glaring omission: the debt those scholars owed to ancient and medieval Hindu mathematicians and scholars, knoweldge the Arabs accessed during the invasions of India. Islamic sholars like Al-Beruni openly acknowledged their debt to the Hindus in mathematics. It is a shame the Prof. Hoodbhoy did not do so; perhaps, however, given the rising influence of fundamentalist Islam in Pakistan, he could not do so.
Vivek
Washington, USA
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
44
TarunGhosh/Jash,

>> Jehadi Faruki: what you are doing is same tactics being empolyed by 711 bombers.


What a stupid statement! I am just pointing out how you lie and spew hate in this forum.

>> You behave similaly by raising issues which has no relevance.

Irrelevance is your forte. Which of my statements is irrelevant?

>> You want to sweep all uncomfortable questions on Islam, by generalising mimicking peoples name. You even refer to me as "her".

I can expose bigots and deal with uncomfortable questions at the same time. I call you "her" because you and Jash and Minu are the same person, however much you try to lie about it.






Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
45
Mr Vinod

I have always maintained in these columns that it is their national responsiblity and pledge towards the honour and integrity of their motherland country, that the Indian Muslims, especially the Ulemas, Imams and Moulanas should have been in the forefront to condemn in strongest terms the Jehadi terrorists, their activities in India and their sponsorers, perpetrators and financiers in Pakistan and some Arab countries.

To answer why it has not happened is a difficult call ... I am sure there are lots of sensible Muslims out there ... but in India also, we need to put our house in order. Successive govts in Delhi have made blunders in Kashmir, in their foreign/defence policies and internal domestic polcies with rgds to minorities, especially Muslims. However, it will be unwise of me, or for that reason any Hindu, to believe that all Muslims (inc. Pakistanis/Bangladeshis) are fanatic and that they only wish to harm India and Hindus ...
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
46
Tarun

I can not be even a tiny fraction of what Atal ji is (Vajpayee) to give him a secular certificate. I know him very close like a brother .. he has even visited and spent a night at my parental home in Lucknow, the city constituency he represents in the national parliament. Shri Deen Dayal Upaddhaya, one of BJP's mentor and co-founder with Dr. Shyama Prasad Mukherjee need not any secular certificate either - from me, Sonia Gandhi, Prakash Karat or Sitaram Yechuri et al.
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
47
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarthi,

>> It is not only permissible, but highly desirable, within Islam, that Islamic law be defined for every age and community.

There are two things here. One is the possibility/openness to change itself and secondly, what kind of change (and if it is making any real difference at all). We have to choose the best possible law and justice system with people of all faiths as equal subjects of state and in consonance with public order and the common good - this is the idea of secular humanism and democracy. By calling the change also as "Islamic law", you are perhaps taking back with your left hand, what you are giving with your right hand? If you continue to call it "Islamic law" then one has to see it to assess how the "Islamic law” defined for “this age" looks like (hopefully it will not be something like the "Islamic science" that the author of the article talked about)

The author of the article unambiguously asked for secular humanism and not a changed or redefined "Islamic law". The author needs to be commended for that.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Aug 08, 2007 12:00 AM
48
>> "Islam's magnificent Golden Age in the 9th–13th centuries brought about major advances in mathematics, science, and medicine. The Arabic language held sway in an age that created algebra, elucidated principles of optics, established the body's circulation of blood, named stars, and created universities"

Those were the centuries when Islamic onslaught reached the borders of India and eventually ended up in forming the many sultanates and the moghul empire in the subsequent centuries here. This probably explains the Arabs becoming aware of arithmatic, algebra, astronomy etc. which were well known even earlier in India. Socalled Arabic numerals received by the west are the decimal numbers and the devanagari numerals used in India. The number '786' considered sacred by moslems /Arabs are seen as the three distinct parts of the "Om" found written on Indian hindu temples, when read 'Right to Left'. Mathematics, matim-adheeka-vidya in sanskrit means 'intellect-amplifier'. Bhaasaka vidyaa as physics, kshemaka-vidyaa as chemistry, bhaava-vidyaa as biology need no dictionary if understood as Sanskrit words. There is reason to believe that while India received onslaught and cruelty from jihadi moslems in invasion, knowledge from India on maths to astronomy were picked up by the intellectual moslems back to Arabia and Turkey and passed on to Europe as 'islamic science'.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
49
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Imagine a conversation after scientists in Cambridge and Oxford have proved beyong doubt that there is no god.

Buddhists are not sure if God exists, and yet they believe in working for Nirvana. Atheism and agnosticism have every right to be among serious belief systems, but only idiots would use one belief system to mock another belief system.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
50
>>It is surprising and sometimes frustrating that muslims just dont want to talk about reforms in Islam

Perhaps you are not aware of the dynamic debate (sometimes acrimonious) within Muslims about Islam. There is a battle raging within and you are not even aware!
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
51
>>Science is already complicated without religion adding another madness to it.

A few months ago, I had a nice chat with Baroness Susan Greenfield. An aspect of her work is studying consciousness. She has recruited a group of theologians for a study at her lab in Oxford. She mentioned that religious belief can be a good analgesic. I let her know that it was a very bad idea to bring in anything remotely religious into basic research. For that reason, I was disappointed that Dalai Lama was invited speaker at the Society of Neuroscience meeting a couple of years ago.

It is best that religion be rigorously confined to the private domain, and not be confused with statecraft or science.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
52
>>As for the rest of the Islamic world it seems to me that the acknowledgement of Hinduism as an important mainstream religion along with Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism would be a good way of breaking the stranglehold that a belief in the right of Islam to exist as a truth above all others seems to exert.

Aspects of Hindusism that shun imagery, idolatory and polytheism has no conflict with Islam. As a Muslim, I can understand that Islam is uncompromising in the Oneness of God. In all other areas of theology, there is room for accommodation. My reading of Islam's scriptures shows that Islam is not averse to pluralism, based on the Quranic principle of Justice.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
53
>>Imagine a conversation after scientists in Cambridge and Oxford have proved beyong doubt that there is no god

This is a patently non-scientific statement. Science does not deal with issues of metaphysics and God. Therefore, just as we cannot prove God, we cannot disprove Him. As Masur Hallaj said in Kitab-ut-Tawhid, "Allah is Allah, creation is creation, and it does not matter".
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
54
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> The Outlook is being run by people who would be most comfortable in any PSU, dealing with sale of rice, atta or dal.It seems they are unaware of whats happening in the East or West.

Have you ever thought about how little you know of what is happening in the East or the West?

>> people who seem to have enormous time and outside resources, and a big deficit in honesty and commonsense.

Talking of yourself again!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
55
You cannot hold water in your hand. This is like worshipping the formless

As soon as water becomes ice - a bit cold, you can hold it for some time or more time depends on the individual. This is like Idol worship.

Now man created the Internet, and idols crept into the world wide web as images. So putting it in Shakeshpearean discourse it would be "to web or not to web is the question".

If you web , than it is webolatory, as per your choice. if you do not web then it is formless.

Whatever one tries to shun or debunk , evolution produces cpmplementary forms of worship. If there is formless , then there is the form.

The Internet is the living proof of global pluralism. It would be interesting to see a comment from the people of the book on this wonderful tool which equilibriates non-violently between the form and formless.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
56
>>Its muslims and their religion which needs acceptance.

For better or worse, Islam is here to stay, nay grow. Besides, your posts denigrating Islam and Muslims thoroughly betrays tour acute poverty of knowledge.

I am here for constructive dialogue, your myopia; loutinshness and pettiness are best confined to your small mind. Besides, it doesn’t matter a tinker's cuss what a blabbering, jingoist, monomaniac feels about Islam.

Islam is a world faith. And notwithstanding your astounding bigotry, it is a wonderful faith.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
57
>>Its muslims and their religion which needs acceptance.

For better or worse, Islam is here to stay, nay grow. Besides, your posts denigrating Islam and Muslims thoroughly betrays your acute poverty of knowledge.

I am here for constructive dialogue, your myopia; loutinshness and pettiness are best confined to your small mind. Besides, it doesn’t matter a tinker's cuss what a blabbering, jingoist, monomaniac feels about Islam.

Islam is a world faith. And notwithstanding your astounding bigotry, it is a wonderful faith.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
58
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> muslims should pay heed to what the outside nonmuslim world thinks and says.

They do. What they ignore is the spiced and selected versions of such views by bigotted writers like yourself. But I read even your biased posts, as you well know.

>> Europe is civilised and nearly ideal, but muslims are still devoted to their religion, haveing lived in it all their lives.And consider that their religion and social traditions are better. I dont think so.

Devotion to one's religion and following one's traditions are not crimes, but abhorrent practises such as honor killings, which are not a part of Islam, are crimes and should be punished to the fullest extent off the law. Reformers never say that one must completely shed one's traditions. But an empty-headed bigot like you would not even know what all that means.

>> A prominent muslim poster takes the position that anyone criticiseing Islam is an empty headed bigot.

Not because you are criticizing Islam, but because you are an empty headed bigot.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
59
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> I have a copy of Omar Khayam poems translated by Edwin Fitzgerald.

And you don't think it is about liberation of the human spirit? BTW, it is Edward Fitzgerald, not Edwin Fitzgerald.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
60
Dear Sir/Maam, I am of the opinion that science and mathematics advancement during the Islamic Empire era was due to a great contribution from India and other regions that were invaded at the time. There is actually a documentary on Islam which states just that. Furthermore, the Islamic empire took a long time to develop the Arabic language since the Bedouins of the Arab peninsula (from whom Mohammad originated) only had a spoken (not written) language. The Quran itself wasn't written down until much later into the empire. By that time, pre-Islamic India, Egypt and Persia had already exceeded basic knowledge of math (one's deductive reasoning qualifies that simply by looking at ancient ruins and buildings such as the Pyramids that are at least 3+thousand yrs old). Islam didn't come around until less than a 1000 years ago. What the Islamic empire succeeded in was compiling intellectual contributions from various regions that it colonized(ex. during the reign of Al-Rahman of Cordova, Spain) and knowledge sharing easier within those proximities by commissioning translations, research, educational seminars, etc. The documentary I mentioned earlier states that it was during this era (knowledge sharing and ed. seminars) that great mathematical discoveries and advancement arrived from India.
And one more thing--I forgot which news paper carried this very same topic last semester (NY Times or SF Chronicle maybe?) and we had to read it for public policy and tech class; the article says the same thing as what you've written. And my critique of the article was the same--that we are too quick to endorse the math/science development to the accomplishment of the Islamic empire when in fact the empire itself gained/not re-invented the wheel, per se.
As far as why they are not doing math/science advancement, you'd have to ask them. Such advancements maybe made within the Islamic communities; however, you have to narrow down exactly which country you are looking at. For instance, intellectuals from Egypt and other non-Golf nations are imported into the Gulf region . Thus, when you look at who produces knowledge and who doesn't, you are forced to look at the region on country basis.
Anyway, do let me know your input about what I said. I'm not trying to be a smarty, but this is my understanding.
Mishka
San Jose, United States
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
61
The Internet is the living proof of global pluralism. It would be interesting to see a comment from the people of the book on this wonderful tool which equilibriates non-violently between the form and formless.

Waiting for a comment on this.

gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
62
Dragging Mirza Ghalib and Omar Khayyam or even Rumi into a insipid discussion is tssteless. They were intellectuals and not swayed by the mullah to do halla-gullah.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
63
Dear Mishika,

Amartya sen wrote in The Argumentative Indian that early Muslim scholars profusely acknowledged Indian scientists. The term ‘al-Hind’ (from India) is liberally used in scientific literature.

As an Indian and a Muslim, I am proud of the contribution to science by both Muslims and ancient Indians. The original contribution to science by Muslim and non-Muslim scholars throughout the productive phase of Muslim history, however, cannot be understated. Muslim contribution to science has been profusely acknowledged by modern scientists (see Nature 444, 22-25 (2 November 2006). Also see Philip Ball’s “The zenith of Islamic science” (Nature 440, 997 (20 April 2006).

Visit the website of a U.K. based project to see for yourself the original contribution of Muslim scholars to science, engineering and technology (www.1001inventions.com).

I believe science, like sports, can be a unifying force. I am not despairing of the prospect of science in the Muslim world. As a religion, Islam has always encouraged the pursuit of knowledge. The present is our dark age, but we shall overcome.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
64
Gajanan,

Unfortunatley the internet is being used not to increase understanding between people but to sharpen the tone of the dialogue and to raise the volume several decibels. On the positive side, it allows communication between people who were not talking to each other before. It has the potential to bring people closer together, especially if they can some day all communicate in one language. At this time it would be impossible to talk to a Russian, or an Egyptian or a Vietnamese unless they knew English. It is a great tool,
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
65
Dear Vinod,

You are a rare Hindu who does not abuse Islam and our beloved Prophet (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him). You are scathingly critical of the state of the Muslim community, which is welcome. You are a friend.

Not a single Muslim poster on this forum abuses Hinduism. Why are Hindus like you silent when your co-religionists insult and abuse our sacred?

Contrary to what you and many like you think, Muslims are the worst victims of terrorism. We are a community under siege by a relatively modern misinterpretation of our faith. There is battle for Islam raging in our midst. When we strongly condemn terrorism, why don’t you notice? When we throw out radical extremists from our mosques, have you noticed? Whenever a bomb goes of somewhere, we silently pray, “Allah, don’t let those involved act in Your Holy name”.

Muslims are not different from you, Vinod. I have Hindu relatives and we are a close-knit family. Hindus and Muslims in India share common values.

Give peace a chance. Stop abusing our sacred.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
66
Amartya Sen has a poor sense of history. He called Panini, the extraordinary, an Afghan, when the place was not called Afghanistan (2nd century BC). In many places , he has let his history look like welfare economics.

Another point is that he writes a lot about Gujarat with Nussbaum providing spice and condiments. I still have to see Sen and Nussbaum comment on Iraq. When you write something as an enlightened person or a scholar you have to cover the entire world not just confine yourself to Gujarat.

Sen need not repeat the acknowledgment of already known history.

Ramachandra Guha in A Sen's ability in history
from

http://www.mumbaimirror...40973457bd7a0a&pageno=1

What’s your take on Amartya Sen’s argument in his book ‘An Argumentative Indian’?

I believe the assumptions made in his book are wrong. Independent India met the needs of the time. He is a great economist, philosopher and writer but an unreliable historian.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
67
>>Amartya Sen has a poor sense of history

Regardless, the fact that Muslim scientists profusely acknowledged Indian contribution in their work is undisputed.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
68
Sen's repeat of historical perspectives is well known and written by many, long before he went to study as an undergrad. An analogy to this can be found in nanotechnology. All have jumped to the bandwagon repeating the same thing again again and again and even using it where not required. This is just to get funds. A survival technique.

If Sen wants to enter and write History of World by announcing to funding bodies that 'Here I come , I have written history, It is a best seller. Give me lot of funds". Well good luck to him , Let him start a new career again wherever he wants, because it will be Sen repeating history and not let history repeat itself. C'Mon Monsieur Sen we want originality not rehash of history, even with editing.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
69
Gaurav ... "Before Moslems can make a mark in Science they need to make up for their all too apparent deficit in intellectual honesty ( in that respect Hoodbhoy is just as bad as the other Pervez ), humility and broad mindedness."

Love this about humility and broad mindedness coming from Gaurav .... given his postings wrt South Indians, Northies, Marwaris, Gujju Banias, basically everyone except those poor little bengalis (though even here excepting those who are commies or bhadralok) who have given a raw deal was everyone under the sun.

Amazingly parochial - I guess talk of humility and broadmindedness is easy.
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
70
>>may be Because muslims like you did not just remain silent but actively supported some one like M F Hussein, who insulted and abused our sacred.

What MF Hussein did is repugnant to Muslims. No Muslim supported what he did. Your assertion that Muslims silently supported him is pure imagination.

>> If you have no respect for our sacred and call us Kafirs, fit to be raped and killed and our land dar ul hirb , why should your sacred matter to us ?

Kafir is simply a term for disbelievers in the Oneness of God. We are forbidden from calling anyone a disbeliever, since Allah alone knows what is in the heart of a person. Rape and killing are forbidden in Islam, and whoever indulges in these acts is clearly outside the pale of Islam.

>>Can you give some links on articles by Muslims condemning what happened in Godhra or kashmir or mjumbai , which does not have ifs and buts and root causes?

Every major Muslim organization has condemned acts of terrorism in India. See their websites for their press release. As individuals, Muslims feel as much anguish as anyone else. Don’t forget Muslims and mosques and have not been spared by the terrorists.

>>When did you throw out radical extremists from any mosque in India?

It happens regularly. Most mosques in India have disbarred extremists from worshipping there. Go to your local mosque and ask the Imam there. If you have followed the news, Kafeel Ahmed, the Glasgow accused, was thrown out of his local mosque in Bangalore.

>>Interesting. Why silently ? Why not on the streets , loud and clear, just as muslims were in case of saddam , danish cartoons or any thing else related to ummah.

Yes, we need to protest more, loudly and clearly, so that you may hear.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
71
Adarsh Ali,

>> What MF Hussein did is repugnant to Muslims. No Muslim supported what he did. Your assertion that Muslims silently supported him is pure imagination.

You are absolutely correct that Muslims do not tolerate nudity and are therefo unlikely to support Hussain's paintings. I wrote in some of my posts that since he is an artist of some renown, and since I have no credentials to comment on art, I am not going to take sides in this argument. But I did not "actively support" Hussain.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
72
ALI:
>>
This is a patently non-scientific statement. Science does not deal with issues of metaphysics and God. Therefore, just as we cannot prove God, we cannot disprove Him.
>>

The statement is partially correct.
It is true that science do not deal with metaphysics and god, however as the horizon of science increases, it exhibits the set of laws
that governs the cosmos, relegating divine interventions to the sideline. Although this itself do not refute the existance of god, but it does weaken the strangle hold of various religious dogma.
Indranil
Kolkata, India
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
73
Ali:
>>
Aspects of Hindusism that shun imagery, idolatory and polytheism has no conflict with Islam. As a Muslim, I can understand that Islam is uncompromising in the Oneness of God.
>>

Pitting one religion against another is a recipe for disaster. Assuming you are from the subcontinent, you should know better.
These leaves too much room for the bigots.

If various religions have to cohabit in a modern society, then the problem has to be addressed socially and politically, and not in the realm of religion.
Indranil
Kolkata, India
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
74
Adarsh Ali:
Hindu idolatry should not be equated with the idolatry objected to by Mohammed among the Arab tribes. The hindu idols are not the objects of worship themselves, but symbols of the singular Absolute God in some aspect of divine functioning. It is to be seen as symbolatry than idolatry. Imagery is associated with the functioning being considered, like creation, protection, retribution, concealment, salvation.
However, hinduism is not polytheism in the Greek sense; it is polymorphic [multifaceted] monotheism, the different functions of the one and ONLY God, seen as His different faces, so to say, with complete coordination and corresponndence of all functions. Siva's or bramha's boons are fully respected by Vishnu, during his actions for the preservation of righteousness in the operation of world civilizations.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
75
I neither read this article nor the entire list of posts, just gone through this recent page... Ganpat Ram's post on 9 Aug, 2007 02:52:10PM (IST) speaks volumes of the realities of current Islamic faith... at last, some substance from you, what did Laxmi do to you last night?

when it comes to hypocracy, there's no difference between American double standards and Islamic double speak... however, the damage being caused to the world, is much more in the former case than the later...
Raj
Leipzig, Germany
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
76
"' have a copy of Omar Khayam poems translated by Edwin Fitzgerald "'

Baba Ganpat ji \ Faruki

You both are highly well read and intelligent . If you share an iota your knowledge here it will be highly valuable and informative.Mutual ping-pong simultaneously you can carry on too .

I wonder how many of us have read Oomar Khayam and how many have understood the message ??
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
77
Ghulam>> Atheism and agnosticism have every right to be among serious belief systems,

but the moot point,Mr.Ghulam, is, Atheists and Agnostics are not bogged down by any strict guidelines that a religion forces its believers... while a muslim is forced to spend an hour a day to do some useless prayers, the same time can be used by non-believers in a better way with a free mind that is not bothered abt what happens when you die...

Ali Vidhyarthi>> Therefore, just as we cannot prove God, we cannot disprove Him.

that's what Agnostics (like me) believe in, and therefore don't give a fuck abt religion... we only take positives from what ever knowledge is provided by our elders and leave the rest of the shit to believers...

Ali Vidhyarti>> Not a single Muslim poster on this forum abuses Hinduism.

I endorse this...

Ali Vidhyarti>> Why are Hindus like you silent when your co-religionists insult and abuse our sacred?

I'm not speaking for Hindus here, but the reason I feel why the so called Hindus on this board spew so much venom on Muslims of this board might be because of the fact that they can't spew it on the jihadi type muslims... so, while jihadi muslims are doing their business in different parts of the world, bigot hindus are busy spewing venom here...
Raj
Leipzig, Germany
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
78
"Aadrash Ali Vidyaarthi": a fine name, perhaps from a sanskrit-knowing hindu family converted to islam. In my perception, Allah stands for Hara = Siva of hinduism, Ali = Hari = vishnu of hinduism, Fatima = padma = Laxmi of hinduism; your name becomes Aadarsh Hari Vidyaarthi.

I appreciate your fondness for the concept of only one God, monotheism. Hinduism is also monotheism only, the different deities in hinduism are only different functional facets of the One singular and universal Absolute.

For advaitic hindus, even the manifest universe and the matter and spirits [souls] therein are only parts of the same singular Absolute from which manifestation comes out as space = vishnu [viSwam vishnuh vasatkaarah], time = Siva [kaalakaalo mahaswarah] and relativist manifestation in the 4-dim space-time called vishnu-maayaa and Siva-sakti, which arises from space and operates in time dually as matter/energy and anti-matter/spirit, separately and in combination. Bodies, materials are matter, souls are spirit, when they combine and jointly operate, from birth to death, they form variety of 'lives' from microbes to plants to animals to humans to divines and living stars; matter [aparaa diti, aphrodite, prakriti] and spirit [paraa Sakti, aditi, seen as gravity force in space, Gauree gaganadhaainee, causes compression of matter into stars in fusion when they are called aadityas, sons of aditi, like our own sun in our solar system. When the Absolute decides on devolution, matter and anti-matter merge to zero; space, time and relativity all vanish into the selfsufficient selfcogniscent Absolute.

Please forgive my philosophical imposition, on science and spirituality, prompted by your interesting name. Wish you peace and progress as a good moslem.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
79
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarthi writes to Vinod..

>> You are a rare Hindu who does not abuse Islam and our beloved Prophet (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him). You are scathingly critical of the state of the Muslim community, which is welcome
>> Give peace a chance. Stop abusing our sacred.

What if one is critical of Islam and Prophet? Is it a pre-condition for peace that there should be no such criticism? BTW, it is the Islamic leaders, telling the world why, for example Rushdie must be beheaded based on Islamic theology and stories for history. If the Islamic leaders are themselves telling it, then it is natural for a non-muslim to make similar charge (that Islamic theology/history is responsible for such things). May be they are wrong (hopefully), but to give 'peace a chance', it is meaningless to say that there should be no criticism of religion. The problems/issues need to squarely confronted. Your time is more productively spent if you spend your time showing powerful arguments from Islamic theology/history, why the likes of those seeking the head of Rushdie or the terrorists are wrong and unislamic.

Adarsh Ali Vidhyarthi writes

>> Aspects of Hindusism that shun imagery, idolatory and polytheism has no conflict with Islam. As a Muslim, I can understand that Islam is uncompromising in the Oneness of God.

There can be any number of doctrinal conflicts or differences in nature/expression of belief etc. While it is important, there is a limit to extent of obsession with doctrine. Even terrorists believe in One God, right? Will that belief save them?
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
80
Hi, Mr. Ganpat Ram.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
81
(Part 5 of 5)

In short, Islam, with its pronounced antipathy for change, is the most profoundly, ferociously, and viciously anti-intellectual, anti-knowledge, anti-reason philosophy in the world. As a result, the minds of its followers are in an intellectual high-security prison. They can't think, ask questions, or pursue insights, for fear of being declared immoral and punished as such.

Muslims are caught between a rock and a hard place; they can't accept the responsibility for their own failure to progress, because to do so would necessarily call into question what the real reason for their failure is. It would point the finger of blame straight at Islam and its hatred of change and the knowledge that drives change. To point that finger is an action fraught with danger. It is the same danger which prevented Pervez Hoodbhoy to categorically and explicitly state the real causes leading to the stagnation of all scientific development in the Muslim World. But we, who consider it our moral duty as humans to espouse and expose the truths and are not in harms way in this instance will not hesitate to do exactly that.

Thus I again arrive at the same conclusion, which I keep arriving at not only in this instance of Scientific Development stagnation, but also in issues of politics, economy, society and ethics etc. which is that the entire Islamic dogma will have to be exorcised and reformed in a radical manner in order to rid humankind from this force of stagnation and morbidity, which as mentioned above has arrested and locked a Quarter of Humanity in an intellectual high-security prison which presently represents Mankind’s biggest lost resource.

(End of Part 5 of 5)
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
82
(Part 4 of 5)
If you can pull it off, declaring thinking to be immoral actually works. People will do almost anything to avoid feeling immoral.

So, if you want to keep things from changing, you outlaw intellectual inquiry. You prohibit questions; you prohibit innovation; and you impose certain highly prescribed behaviors. If you deviate, if you rock the boat, if you change, you are pronounced immoral. And of course, since immorality is a bad thing, you will be punished. But since thinking is in the nature of humans to do, when it is outlawed, they become frustrated, they do not progress, and life becomes is miserable. Just as it is really uncomfortable for us to experience limitations in the function of the heart, it is really uncomfortable for us to experience limitations in the function of the mind.

Of course, if you comply and manage to live with the frustration and misery, there is the promise of complete happiness after death. That's one of the reasons that Muslims who practice the purest form of Islam claim not to fear death, and in fact why some live only in order to achieve death. How much worse can death be than life? It's their only escape from the misery and frustration of a miserable, frustrating, life on this earth.

The entire body of Islamic belief applies to every aspect of one’s life, and it has a profound effect on the quality of life of Muslims. Here are some everyday examples of ways the Islamic prohibition against thinking, knowledge, and change affects Muslims:

1) In the Muslim world, the illiteracy rate, depending on your source, is between 50% and 80%.

2) In Europe, the number of books per person is ten times greater than the number of books per person in the Muslim Middle East and Africa combined.

3) The number of books translated into Arabic in the last ONE THOUSAND (1000) years is equal to the number of books translated into Spanish alone in ONE (1) year.

4) Between 1980 and 1999, the number of patents from Arab countries registered in the United States was 370. During that same period, the number of patents from South Korea alone was 16,328.

5) At Google headquarters in Silicon Valley, there is a large map with lights that show the number of searches going on at any particular moment. The whole world is bright, except for the region stretching from Morocco to the border of India, where it is almost dark.

6) In the Arab world, the number of computers per 1000 people is 18; the number of computers per person world wide, including poor nations, is 78 per 1000.

7) When the "outsourcing" of hi-tech jobs were discussed at a meeting in Davos, Switzerland, countries as diverse as India, China, Mexico, and Ireland were mentioned. Countries in the Arab world are not considered, because they don't have the infrastructure or the educational level to support such work.

8) The Nobel Prize has been awarded, at the time of this writing, to 116 individuals and groups (many of whom have been the hated Jews). Of these, only 8 have been Muslims, despite their claim that of the approximately six billion people in the world, Muslims comprise two billion. You do the math.

9) The Fields Prize (often called the “Nobel Prize of mathematics”) began to be awarded in 1936, and is given every four years to outstanding mathematicians under the age of 40. So far, 48 awards have been given, representing Australia, Belgium, China, Finland, France, (West) Germany, Italy, Japan, New Zealand, Norway, Russia/USSR, Sweden, the UK and the USA. There is not a single Muslim in the bunch.
(End of Part 4 of 5)
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
83
(Part 3 of 5)

Also, resulting from the above notion that “all knowledge worth knowing had been "revealed" to Muhammad” in the Islamic world, new knowledge is not only not needed, it is a threat to the very existence of Islam, and is therefore evil. In Islam therefore, the intellectual windows are closed. No deviation from the sacred documents is permitted. No questions about Islam are tolerated. The religious clerics are in total control of every aspect of the lives of the individual human beings within their sphere of influence. The Koran and other holy scriptures of Islam are the constitution of the Muslim lands, a constitution which are not based in reason but a compilation of revelations. A "constitution" describes the relationship between an organization and its membership, so the Koran, which the Fundamentalists insist is the unquestioned and literal word of Allah, is law. The body of law derived from the Koran is called “Sharia”.

Muslims are conservatives" in the worst sense of the word. "To conserve" means "to keep something the same, to prevent change." That's fine, if you have something great to begin with, like Ghalib’s poetry, the works of Shakespeare, a magnificent breed of horses, the music of Tan Sen, or a wonderful family recipe, and you want to preserve it. BUT IF IT INVOLVES THE FREEZING OF KNOWLEDGE, THAT IS A BIG PROBLEM. And that's what Islam did. All five branches of the Koranic philosophy -- ethics, epistemology, metaphysics, aesthetics, and politics -- are frozen in time, in the 9th century, no less, and what’s even worse, they are frozen in the context of its primitive desert tribal mentality.

Islamic ethics are’nt based on life; they are based on death. Its epistemology as mentioned above is not based on reason; it is based on revelation. Its metaphysics do not regard the universe as a benign place, but rather, as a place of fear and uncertainty. Its art is not free to express anything that valued life; it is restricted it to the portrayal of the non-living, and preventing any non-verbal expression of potentially threatening values from sneaking in. Its politics is not founded on the protection of individual rights, but on absolute totalitarianism.

In the above scenario, it is very obvious why scientific development based on scientific though and enquiry is so difficult to take place.

As seeking of new knowledge outside the realm of the Koran and Hadees is considered undesirable and a dangerous influence that could lead all the way from serious doubt to heresy and even total disbelief with rejection of Islam, if people were allowed to think independently, by the Muslim establishment, it has actively sought to scuttle all enquiry including the scientific enquiry and desired the freezing of knowledge.

Now, given that the human mind, because of the way it is constructed, "wants to know," how on earth do you achieve the process of "freezing knowledge?" Aristotle had argued that it was the very nature of human beings to be curious, to investigate, to innovate - in short, to bring about and participate in change as knowledge increased. Its just what human brains DO. Hearts beat and pump blood, while brains think and learn.

If it is in the nature of the human mind to pursue knowledge, just how is it possible to prevent it?

It’s not easy, since you are "swimming upstream" with respect to the nature of the human mind. You have to have total control of every aspect of thought and behavior. You perform that nasty little trick by declaring anything you deem dangerous to the status quo to be immoral.

A "moral code" is a set of values chosen to guide your thoughts and behaviors. So you proclaim thinking, which leads to questions, which lead to knowledge, which lead to change, to be immoral.
(End of Part 3 of 5)
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
84
(Part 2 of 5)

The ancient Greek philosophers are credited as the originators and pioneers of the rationalist philosophy which works in the Western Free and the Developed world today. Their age circa 4th century B. C. is known as ‘The Golden Age’. The best known philosophers of that era were Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle. Socrates was Plato’s teacher, and Plato was Aristotle’s. The star of the “Golden Age,” and its prime mover, was Aristotle. He developed the “Law of Identity” and the “Law of Causality” which is the basis of the Western world’s epistemology. The “Law of Identity” spoke about the nature of things – what they were made of, the way they were put together, and so on. The “Law of Causality” spoke about the impact that their natures had on their behavior and the way, because of their natures, they related to other stuff. Thus to gain knowledge and to put it to use, it was required that we first study the nature of things, their formation and how they existed in nature (Identity), and subsequently, what effect and impact did the innate nature of things had on their behaviour (Causality). In short, this is the classic Cause and Effect theory. Effects and phenomena which happen around us have some underlying causes due to which they occur. The cause and effects are linked and exhaustive. That is, they are complete and independent of any other supernatural spirits or divine intervention. And to comprehend, set out and establish the contents of the ‘Causes’ and their ‘Effects’ and the link between them, reasoning and rationalization was the process advocated by Aristotle.

It is here that the major difference between the rational west and Islam exists. ISLAM’S EPISTEMOLOGY OR THE PROCESS TO ACQUIRE KNOWLEDGE IS NOT BASED IN REASON BUT REVELATION.
Islamic ideology maintains that all knowledge worth knowing had been "revealed" to Muhammad, which is registered in its Sacred and Holy Scriptures. Thus, Islam prescribes that to acquire any knowledge which is needed by human beings, one has to refer and consult the revelations which Allah made to Muhammad which are mentioned in its holy Scriptures and follow the example set out by Muhammad in his life which are supposed to be guided by these holy revelations. This is the underlying cause of the lament by the author >> "Recently discovered astounding scientific facts, accurately described in the Muslim Holy Book and by the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) 14 centuries ago." Here one will find that everything from quantum mechanics to black holes and genes was anticipated 1400 years ago. > new science was about to be built on lofty moral principles such as tawheed (unity of God), ibadah (worship), khilafah (trusteeship), and rejection of zulm (tyranny), and that revelation rather than reason would be the ultimate guide to valid knowledge. Others took as literal statements of scientific fact verses from the Qur'an that related to descriptions of the physical world. Those attempts led to many elaborate and expensive Islamic science conferences around the world. Some scholars calculated the temperature of Hell, others the chemical composition of heavenly djinnis. None produced a new machine or instrument, conducted an experiment, or even formulated a single testable hypothesis.>>
(End of Part 2 of 5)
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
85
(Part 1 of 5)
Hi guys, sorry to join issue with this debate at this late juncture as I had to attend to some pressing issues at work. However, the subject of the debate is such that I feel that it is a must for me to respond.

I commend the author for raising a very crucial issue of the stagnation of scientific development in the Muslim World. I can very well imagine his frustration which he is bound to have felt as a person of Science in the stifling environment of Islamic world. The only complaint about his article is that he has not taken his argument to its logical conclusion. He has done well to identify the issue, discuss the indications and the symptoms of the disease, measured its degree and gravity and given some hints as to what the reasons could be, but stopped short of identifying and holding responsible the real cause which leads to the resulting stagnation. But the poor man’s limitations and restraints in not being able to do so are understandable being an inhabitant of a closed dogmatic society which does not brook any dissent and where disbelief and criticism of the sacred could very well invite capital punishment.

But as far as we are concerned, we could very well reflect on this crucial issue and take it to its logical and relevant conclusion as we do not share the author’s restraints and restrictions.

The conclusion is that medieval, retrograde and the highly unscientific and non-secular ideology of Islam, which occupies so much space of the Muslim public and individual consciousness is the single most important culprit in arresting the scientific development to use the terms mentioned by the author. As long as this illogical, irrational and outdated ideology continues to prevail amongst people, reasonable scientific and technological advancement as witnessed in the environment from which it is absent can never be hoped to be achieved.

We have good cause and reasons to arrive at the above stark conclusion. To understand the same, we shall have to discuss and know what constitutes the basic requirements of scientific approach and attitude and how scientific reasoning and research progresses to reach to the desirable results of scientific advancement. It would then be clearly demonstrated as to how the Islamic ideology is found wanting and lacking in the said requirements, thwarting the desired scientific progress.

All societies and people work according to some guidelines or charted maps. These guidelines when compiled are collectively known as the philosophy of that society, philosophy is the "roadmap of life" for us. The basic issue at work here is the vast difference between the Philosophy of Muslims and the developed world.

The branch of philosophy which deals with the process by which humans acquire knowledge is known as epistemology. It is here that you will find the basic difference between the two.

(End of Part 1 of 5)
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
86
>>your name becomes Aadarsh Hari Vidyaarthi

It does not matter, Seshadriji. Call Him Allah, call Him Hari, we as human beings know so little. Mevlana Rumi said "arrogance of faith is the worst type of arrogance". People of all religions, but especially Muslims, are guilty of this. Knowing Islam, as I do, true knowledge of Islam will lead to humility.

I come from a family of Hindu and Muslim scholars. I have personally chosen the Islamic faith. But Hinduism can be the path for those who chose it. I will fight for their right to follow their convictions.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
87
JOSEPH THE ODOROUS:

Why are you back in Karachi?

Did you not find a job in your malodorous trade in Slumabad?

By the way, I will be in the Holy Martyrs Church in Richmond B.C. on 28 August.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
88
Look, if "Kindus" like nude goddesses, why should M F Hussain not paint them?

Look at Kali, Kajuraho etc.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
89
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> There is a great deal of naiveity and hypocracy amongst religious people.

What's the sense in such sweeping generalizations?

>> They are great for proclaiming their faith, but in matters of their daily affairs they are as
mundane as anyone else.

If they are like anyone else, what's the problem?

>> The Saudi oligarchs (includeing the royal house) are fully invested in the US economy.

Are they religious people?

>> Darfur is a horrible tragedy and an exposure of Arab racism.

Are you talking about religious people, or just Muslims? Seems that every time you are shown up for being a bigot, you fall back on your hackneyed issues.

>> Religious people do not rely on faith to solve their numerous problems, but like anyone else rush to get aid from sensible and good doctors, solicitors, bankers.

That's what they should do. You have some strange ideas on what "religious people" are supposed to be like!

>> faith driven societies are in bad shape.

There are no faith driven societies, only faith driven people, like Bush.

>> Danes that I know of- the political species- are exasperated at muslim immigrants trying to lecture them on how to live and behave.

You are talking of backwardness, not religion. You are now in your favorite area of anti-Islamism!

>> Muslims complain of Hindu intolerance, but no one seems
to be leaveing India, and instead there is an
unending stream of illegal immigrants heading
west into Indian cities.

How come you are parading all your stock arguments this morning? Did you have a bad day yesterday?

Such a long post from you full of pure drivel.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
90
This is from Joseph the so-called odorous to Mr. Parbat Laldeng, the Actual Hypocrite, who says he is a Muslim and attends Church too.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
91
Those who attacked Taslima Nasreen are the most despicable people. They deserve the most severe punishment. They should be condemned by all right-thinking Muslims.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
92
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> ANY ONE WHO QUESTIONS SOME ONE ELSES FAITH IS AN IDIOT.!

Faith is not science or political dogma or philosophical disputation. People believe what they believe. While we should question certain practises associated with some faiths which are objectionable, such as dhimmi, triple talaq, forced conversions, caste system, sati etc, the core belief systems are matters of faith in the true meaning of that word.

>> THATS WHY THE MAIN EXTERNAL CHARITABLE EXPENDITURE OF SAUDI ARABIA IS IN PROMOTEING THEIR RELIGION ISLAM.

Criticizing the Saudis is okay.

>> PROMOTEING THEIR RELIGION ISLAM. OBVIOSLY BECAUSE THEY THINK THAT THE IDLE WORSHIPPERS ARE IDIOTS. SAME GOES FOR THE CHRISTIAN CLERGY.

Christians and Muslims consider it their duty to spread their messages. Hindus have every right to reaffirm their faith and to preserve and glorify their heritage. Both are legitimate activities.

>> PEOPLE WHO HAVE THIS ATTITUDE SHOULD STAY APART.

The notorious Bagai apartheidism!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
93
Since naked goddesses are a very important part of "Hinduism" - just remember Kajuraho ! - then how can serious Hindus not praise M F Hussain for painting these goddesses as they really should be?

He is helping Hindus to worship.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
94
1) In the Muslim world, the illiteracy rate, depending on your source, is between 50% and 80%.
......WHAT IS IT FOR HINDUS?.

2) In Europe, the number of books per person is ten times greater than the number of books per person in the Muslim Middle East and Africa combined.
......WHAT IS IT FOR HINDUS?.

3) The number of books translated into Arabic in the last ONE THOUSAND (1000) years is equal to the number of books translated into Spanish alone in ONE (1) year.
......WHAT IS IT FOR HINDI, ETC.?.

4) Between 1980 and 1999, the number of patents from Arab countries registered in the United States was 370. During that same period, the number of patents from South Korea alone was 16,328.
......WHAT IS IT FOR INDIA?.

5) At Google headquarters in Silicon Valley, there is a large map with lights that show the number of searches going on at any particular moment. The whole world is bright, except for the region stretching from Morocco to the border of India, where it is almost dark.
I WILL HAVE TO CHECK THIS?.

6) In the Arab world, the number of computers per 1000 people is 18; the number of computers per person world wide, including poor nations, is 78 per 1000.
WHAT IS IT FOR INDIA?.

7) When the "outsourcing" of hi-tech jobs were discussed at a meeting in Davos, Switzerland, countries as diverse as India, China, Mexico, and Ireland were mentioned. Countries in the Arab world are not considered, because they don't have the infrastructure or the educational level to support such work.
I WILL HAVE TO CHECK THIS?.

8) The Nobel Prize has been awarded, at the time of this writing, to 116 individuals and groups (many of whom have been the hated Jews). Of these, only 8 have been Muslims, despite their claim that of the approximately six billion people in the world, Muslims comprise two billion. You do the math.
THE NUMBER OF MUSLIMS IS 1.337 BILLION AS AGAINST 990 MILLION HINDUS. CAN WE HAVE THE RATIO AND PROPORTION WITHIN THIS PERSPECTIVE?.

9) The Fields Prize (often called the “Nobel Prize of mathematics”) began to be awarded in 1936, and is given every four years to outstanding mathematicians under the age of 40. So far, 48 awards have been given, representing Australia, Belgium, China, Finland, France, (West) Germany, Italy, Japan, New Zealand, Norway, Russia/USSR, Sweden, the UK and the USA. There is not a single Muslim in the bunch.
(End of Part 4 of 5)
THERE IS NO INDIAN TOO.




Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
95
talking abt one religious people are better than the others, compare the people who attacked Taslima Nasreen with those people who vandalized a historic museum in Pune (or somewhere in Maharastra) for an English author's book on Sivaji... there are scumbags in every religion... I wonder when these people understand that Humanity is above religion...
Raj
Leipzig, Germany
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
96
Raj of Leipzig,

>> but the moot point,Mr.Ghulam, is, Atheists and Agnostics are not bogged down by any strict guidelines that a religion forces its believers... while a muslim is forced to spend an hour a day to do some useless prayers.

My post was in answer to an atheist trying to argue that if it was "scientifically" proved that God does not exist, then how foolish all the believers would look. Rather than letting him feel left out, I said that atheism and agnosticism have every right to be included among serious belief systems.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 09, 2007 12:00 AM
97
One wonders what happened to the part 5 of 5 from the poster on islam reform from Nasik. Has it been edited off by Outlook staff, because it said madarsaa reform was essential for the mind-reform of moslems ? Are they afraid that once madarsas are reformed, christian laity may start asking for reforms on churchian schools also ?
IN fact, if one sees some of the churchian programs aired on transnational TV channels, the importance given by moslem madarsas to quranic revelations are evenly matched by the importance these churchians give to literal interpretations of the socalled 'prophesies' in the new and old testaments of the bible. If the children of the churchian west are largely guided by these neo-conservatives, the west may degenerate in a century to the current state of the islamic countries. 'madarasa' stands for cultivation of taste for mad pride in one's religion; it should become 'mati-rasa', for cultivation of taste for intellectual enquiries, for islamic society to reform and perform.

Religion, of any name, should cultivate modesty, but also inspire spirituality and wisdom, imaginative thinking and quest for knowledge and understanding, as symbolized by the goddesses Saraswathy of the hindus and Sophia of the Greeks. C.V.Raman got his first degree at age 18 and the nobel prize by age 30, because his family started teaching him English and Sanskrit along with mother-tongue Tamil, from age 3. What is taught at very early age determines the slope of the growth trajectory of individual intellects. When I was studying German in Goethe Institute in Germany, sanskrit-knowers mastered it fast, arabs etc were slowest to learn. Germans, Japanese and Chinese are concentrating on teaching English to their young children, they are matching the US in development, same with the south indians, despite degenerate politicians trying to close down English-teaching schools. North Indians are lagging because they consider English as a rival to national language Hindi. If the Saudi millionaires, who are funding madarsas all over the world, are really keen that moslems should shine on par with others in the next few decades, they should insist on English learning along with mother tongue at all these madarsas, from early age; learn the quran well, but also learn to appreciate Shakespeare, Milton and Goldsmith, along with the bible, the bhagavat geeta and the tirukkural. Then, every moslem child in the world can develop into an Abdul Kalam and become a pride to his family and country.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
98
Ganpat Ram,

See my 7 part response regarding Hindu-Muslim relations in the forum for article on Hamid Ansari


http://www.outlookindia...nsari%20(F)&sid=1&pn=1#


Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
99
MFR,

>> The conclusion is that medieval, retrograde and the highly unscientific and non-secular ideology of Islam ...

In this forum, you are preaching to the converted.

>> The best known philosophers of that era were Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle.

It is Europeans who forgot all about them, and could not have revived them if the Arabs had not appreciated, studied and preserved the Greek legacy.

>> Here one will find that everything from quantum mechanics to black holes and genes was anticipated 1400 years ago.

This is true of some modern day Hindu thinkers also. Just ask our own Seshadri.

>> Some scholars calculated the temperature of Hell.

Crackpots like that abound even in Western science.

>> new knowledge is not only not needed, it is a threat to the very existence of Islam, and is therefore evil.

This is true, but such mental lethargy has to be understood in historical and geopolitical terms. Attributing it all to a theology is itself the result of mental lethargy. By the way, Galileo, Darwin and Freud met the same resistances in European Christian societies.

>> Muslims are conservatives" in the worst sense of the word.

True, but it is a phase.

>> Islamic ethics are’nt based on life.

No evidence of that. Preoccupation with the hereafter has come about because of psych-historical reasons. It is a withdrawal in face of humiliation and defeat.

>> Its politics is not founded on the protection of individual rights, but on absolute totalitarianism.

True. Many Western societies went through such stages.

>> The number of books translated into Arabic in the last ONE THOUSAND (1000) years is equal to the number of books translated into Spanish alone in ONE (1) year. Between 1980 and 1999, the number of patents from Arab countries registered in the United States was 370. During that same period, the number of patents from South Korea alone was 16,328.

Such snapshots do not make a movie.

>> the entire Islamic dogma will have to be exorcised and reformed in a radical manner.

Throw out the baby with the bathwater?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
100
Parthasarthy,

>> BAN RELIGIOUS BRAINWASHING OF YOUNG MINDS.

If you want to be a proselytiser, you will have to stand in a line, behind the evangelists and the maulvis!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
101
I say preach ur religion but how about allowing others to preach too.. U wud be hard-pressed to find many if any mulla country whihc actually allows that in their onw den..

bloody bigots turn into apologist where their number is less rest assures when they find it conveneint they show their tru colour everywhere
Rahul
Delhi, India
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
102
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> A bigot is one who refuses to change , and ignores all arguments and evidence. Usually he has one main subject. Now who fits this role best.

You!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
103
Seshadri . you said very right about the example of APJ Kalam. If the people of the book do not do it, the Internet will do it. As I had written in a previous post, it acts as great leveller between the die hard and live soft human beings. The stable peaceful equilibria which the Internet creates between the form and formless will force people to think and create more and more global Abdul Kalams in the future. The Internet will advance and it will become cheaper and cheaper for the masses and the future looks very bright for pluralism everywhere.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
104
Ganpat/bagai,

>> Is the Pope earlier a professor in theology an idiot, along with senior christian clergy.

The Pope did not challenge core beliefs. He quoted a Byzantine king about the spread of Islam by the sword.

>> Why can not core beliefs be challenged?

Simply because it makes no sense. If I challenge the godliness of Rama and Krishna, do I then leave Hinduism? But I am not in Hinduism in the first place, so it is a useless exercise.

>> Why are some muslims so outraged when they are
asked to live separately in order to avoid discord?

Ask the South Africans. You of course are free to go and live on the North Pole if you like.

>> MFR has given a dismal account of Islam and its ingrained intolerance.

Not unlike the situation that prevailed in Europe just a few hundred years ago.

>> I believe that they are just a few moderate muslims.

But you are no moderate bigot.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
105
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Besides calling it drivel none of the comments was answered in any rational manner.
>> Besides calling it drivel none of the comments was answered in any rational manner.
>> no intelligent comments wrt MFR,s superb analysis.

My replies to both were relevant and succinct. Since MFR's posts are erudite, my answers were respectful. Since you spit out drivel, my answers tend to be curt.





Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
106
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> I can with difficulty accept people remaining muslims.

The height of intolerance, mixed with stupidity!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
107
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> You can buy this book in any book shop in Mumbai. It would serve as a bomb against Islam.

A moron's view of a celebration of life. If one takes that idiotic view, it would be a bomb against all religions. Using the Rubaiyat in the service of your hate!!! How low can one get?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
108
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Some of us criticise Islam because we despise it.

It is because you are despicable.

>> Thats called free thinking and free speech.

It is bigotry and idiocy.

>> The reason being that Christians despite conservativism were able to think and debate and change.Muslims can not.

Muslims will slowly get better at it, but you will stay a moron.

>> I hate paying to support people who hate my guts.

The Ku KLux Klan people used to say that about the Blacks in the southern states of America.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
109
Dear Ghulam Faruki,

Ganpat Ram's blood pressure is rising. Let this monomaniac despair, fume and burn in his own petty mind. Meanwhile, enjoy the show.

BTW, are you following baseball? What do you think of Barry Bond's home run record?
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
110
Ganpat Ram >>I think you are a real son of a bitch.

Ganpat, I suggest rehab to you. Your sanity is on the line.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
111
Ganpat/bagai,

>> All points raised by me are corroborated by MFR and Parbat.

That just shows what an idiot you are. And not being able to stand on your own two feet, you go looking for imaginary supporters! pathetic.

>> Whats the purpose of your childish defence of
a religion which has been condemned the world over.

Why this obsession with my religion? All day long Islam and Muslims, Islam and Muslims, Islam and Muslims. Get a head check, please!

>> (To Ali) And muslims like you are not welcome in this forum.

Do you now own this forum?

>> Your faith prohibits you from free thinking.

What prohibits you from any thinking at all?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
112
>> This Ali guy is the limit. What he needs is a sound kick on his ass, for the disrespectful manner he has written.

LOL, I am glad you are getting crazier. Louder, moron, louder...your uncontrollable rants don't fail to amuse me.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
113
On the side, it is amazint that Outlook still has not found time to say something on the Goa issue. Apparently the dudes are busy working on the next " Modi is in trouble" story and "Amitabh is a crook" story.

BTW, do the dudes in Outlook know about a state called Goa?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
114
Adarsh Ali,

There are mixed feelings about Barry Bond's newly set home run record. They appreciate his performance but they do not like the deception. They like to hold base ball champions as heroes to their children, but they are not sure whether to do that with Bond.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
115
Good night, Lalit. Sweet dreams!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
116
Ganesan,

So what's your reply to my post in "Past as Prologue" section?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
117
Faruki:

What is that post and what is that section?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
118
Ganpat/Bagai,

The Pope's phrase was, " ... evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." It did not upset me. I criticized those who got hot under the collar. The Pope has said many nice things about Islam since then, and I remember posting a link to one of his speeches just for you.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
119
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> End of smart assed remarks.

Caling your own remarks "smart assed". Are you mad with yourself?

Go to bed!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
120
Ganpat,
I always enjoy reading your comments. One can accuse you of having an obsession, but never of being a bigot. Your views are very sensible and mostly expressed in a dignified way. If the Muslims on this forums showed a bit less overconfidence and arrogance and a bit more tolerance to accept others point of view, everyone can coexist very well with frank and open exchange of opinions . I would any day follow your way of expressing opinions than of anyone else's.
Akhil
Chicago, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
121
Awards ??????
Did Gandhi get one ?
Read this

http://nobelprize.org/n...icles/gandhi/index.html


Rosalind Franklin did all the hard work for the DNA structure. she died young , so there is no Nobel prize posthumously. What a joke? Suppose you are no more after 6 mths after making a spectacular contribution. No Nobel prizes then . A ridiculous approach.

Satyen Bose ( Bose Einstein Condensate) and JC Bose (IEEE Has passed all this now) Both legends , not recognised.

Coming to peace , Kissinger awarded with a Vietnamese leader . The V leader refused the award. This was lobbied very well for.

Eric Ambler once wrote " In a dying civilization, awards and rewards are given to the one with best political manners' Sometimes you feel that it is given to mediocrity by ignorance" .

Still if you are not satisfied ' sing Sahir's lyrics " Yeh Duniya agar Mil bhi Jaye tho kya hai" vigorously passing your fingers thru the piano ( if you have one).

Incidently if still interested one Prof SR Vardhan one the Abel Prize in Maths this yr . The web is full of this and there is debate whether this or Fields medal is the equivalent to Nobel.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
122
Forgot to mention about Dr Jonas Salk , who refused to patent the polio vaccine to keep the price down and was probably denied the Nobel Prize. Enders the microbiologist got the NB. Hope you can read between lines about the relevance of Eric Amblers statement and Salk almost following Sahir's lyrics to give the vaccine to people rather than seek the duniya himself. This is one of the most laudatory aspect of human compassion and feeling for the people,

gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
123
It is a real shame that Tasleema was attacked by MIM. The MLAs who attacked her shouldn't have been let off in a bail. The govt should take a very strong action against these goons.
Indranil
Kolkata, India
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
124
May I be allowed to remind MUSLIM FOR REFORM that this Forum needs short and pithy observations with a touch of wit, sarcasm and invective and not HIST 103: Islam in South Asia.

Having said that, let me concede that I shall be saving your Seven Part effort for another rainy day. Regards.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
125
You show immense prescience, Mr Ganpat Ram by the use of the word "yet" in the Quote
Below.
----------------------------------------
---------
Europe is not a muslim protectorate as yet.

----------------------------------------------
---

If my demographic analysis is correct, it may well be a Muslim protectorate before the year 2111.

This is how I work it out. Islam to grow at an annual compounded growth rate of 1.5 per cent per annum with Eastern European Christians growing at 1.0 per cent, Roman Catholics at 0.5 per cent and others at zero or negative rate.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
126
Are you a Hindu by choice , Mr. Ganpat Ram?. No, you are one as you were born in a Hindu Family. Of course, one has the option to convert but that option is not frequently exercised.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
127
Jash/TarunGhosh,

GF >>>> So Muslim moderates are fraudulent, and Hindu moderates are pseudos!

Jash >> Absolutely both are on the side of jihad.

Are all sins going to be chalked up to Hindu and Muslim moderates? Did the BJP government do better on any of the parameters you listed?

When you wish extremism to prevail in India, you better know what you are wishing for. Extremist governments have ruined Germany, Italy, Iran and Pakistan.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
128
Aadarsh Ali vidhyarthi,
you have chosen islam personally you say.have you read hindhu dharma compared it with islam found hindhu dharma inadequate and then embraced islam?it can not be .because if you have studied and practically followed hindhu dharma then you would have surely come to know that there is nothing that equals hindhu dharma even in the remotest sense.hindhu dharma has believed all religions to be true and equal.it has said that God can be reached in different ways as different rivers merge into the same ocean ultimately.Seers like shri Rama krishna ParamaHamsa have practised religions like christianity and islam along with hindhu dharma and found them to be true.it is only in hindhu dharma that any number of sacred Rishis have proclaimed by practise that God can be reached and realised!can you ever boast of such a conviction in islam or christianity?you say that you will fight for the rights of hindus to have their conviction and faith.how does this reconcile with the assertion of Islam that "there is no God but allah and that Md.Nabi was his last prophet.When people point out the various atrocities committed by muslim jehadhis on this forum how does it become a hate message for you on your 'sacred faith"?for the last 1500 years crores and crores of innocent lives were butchered in the name of islam.read the history of islam and you would realise if you have conscience that it is not a religion but a political movement.if you analyse the life of Md.Nabi you can come across a number of atrocious things which not even an ordinary human being with consideration would do,let alone a Prophet!barbaric practises are allowed in islam.women are treated as slaves,and cattle.do you know shah banoo case which involved the divorcing of a muslim woman by her husband after she bore her husband 7 children and when she was above sixty years of age?and when the supreme court of india said that she should be maintained by her ex husband after being divorced the indian muslims rose as a group and forced the judgement of supreme court to be annuled in the name of quran and islam.if this is the islam you are proud of and cling to then God rather Allah save you!
arun
newdelhi, India
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
129
This aadarsh ali vidhyarthi has started of as a great and sbobering muslim.but soon the mask is off.just see his reactions in his postings addressed to farukhi.ali is just another ghulam farooqui or may be the two are one indeed!

The Prabat laldeng(or is it cowdung?)says that hindus should be praising hussain for painting hindu goddesses in the nude.by the same logic all muslims inculding vidhyarthis should be marrying 9 years old girls when they turn 56 or 57,just asProphet Md.Nabi has done and shown the path to the Muslims to follow!

Aadarsh Ali vidhyarthi is not innocent.he is another fanatic under the garb of a liberal just as Farooqui is.if aadarsh Ali vidhyarthi is serious in his contention that he respects the right of hindus to practise their faith then one would wait to see that he condemns parbat laldengs for his outrageous utterances against hindus and their faith.deeds should speak loudere than words.
arun
newdelhi, India
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
130
Where are the self styled champions of human rights freedom of expressions etc like yechuris,brinda karats,prakash karats,a.b.bardans etc etc?Taslima Nasreen has been attacked in hyderabad by three muslim goonda mlas.but these communst trojan horses and traitors are yet to open their mouth in condemnation of such barbaric attacks!Some example of pseudo secularism minority appeasement and intellectual dishonesty indeed!
arun
newdelhi, India
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
131
“On the side, it is amazint that Outlook still has not found time to say something on the Goa issue.”

Well said, Ganesan. I too am waiting for a story on Cholegate (some chole-selling Malhotra guy who became crorepati thanks to the congress politicians), a huge land scam brewing in Delhi where, predictably, congress bigwigs are involved. Considering they treated one Bachchan and his one land deal as their cover page news.

No story on Kiran Bedi’s sidelining either.

Actually if VM favours congress on these 2 issues, the readers will rip him apart; if he doesn’t then Sonia will do so. The smart guy sure knows when to keep his trap shut…
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
132
Can you help me, Mr. Ganpat Ram?. While my P. C. was under upgrading, I got to see some great Movies on T. V. One of them was from Denmark. It was about Willy, a singer in the a Band called 'The Winstons', who tries to revive the Group after a short stint in Prison. He fails to win the approval of his Group as a Singer and cajoles a neighbour, Nettina, to become the Lead Singer. The other characters are Sven, who is a Aphetamine Addict, Suzanne, etc.

I did not get the name of the Movie?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
133
Please read Bettina for Nettina, Mr. Ganpat Ram. Also have you seen Lila Dit Ca, which apart from some strongly suggestive scenes, shows a deep understanding of Muslim Immigrants in France?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
134
Before you go on that well-deserved Weekend Trip, Mr. Ganpat Ram, do help me with the name of that Danish Movie. Please.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
135
... and one more prognostic, agnostic and sarcastic view, Mr Ganpat ... the genes of Nehru will rule India forever ...
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
136
Perserverance Pays, Mr. Ganpat Ram. Here it is.

“Big Plans” (“Store Planer”), on Friday, January 26, directed by Jesper Nielsen, is a comedy about Willy, who has
dedicated his life to rock and roll. Faced with an uncertain future, he reunites his band, the Winstons. Getting the
old group together is a challenge, but when he learns the call girl across the hall has a fine voice, he convinces her
to sing with them and thinks they might have a chance at success.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
137
Will someone please tell the itchy baboon on this forum to stop trying to grab everyone’s attention!! He tries desperately to sound intellectual, trying to catch everyone’s attention. Sometimes crying ‘Torun da!’ and then tries some gibberish Bengali. Now he is begging Ganpat baba to give him some attention…

He must be the itchy beggar sitting in front of lal masjid in his past birth. Due to some luck he got to learn 26 english alphabets, but due to his past bad deeds, got born again as a Christian in Pakistan (imagine!). some legacy of his past birth is still visible like his itch and his tuppence-worth brain…even the habit of hanging on miserably when everyone shoos him away…
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
138
Jash/TarunGhosh,

>> jihadis on this board with the notorious GF as their head.

For you any Muslim is a jihadi if he believes in his religion, or if he is anti-Parivar, or if he takes on bigots like you or Ganpat/Bagai or Raj/Bodepudi! In reality you are much more of an extremist than I am.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
139
Ganpat/bagai,

>> Wise people who discover the inanity of religion discard it and move on.

Yes, they move on. They do not linger in order to taunt and trash those who kept their religions.

>> Sir V.S.Naipaul has said that muslims are like parasites liveing on the intellectual achievments of the west.

Only a very mean spirited person like you can say something like that. By the way, don't you yourself live on the intellectual achievements of the West?

>> Like the Pope has said Christianity has tried to be in synch with rationality, and Islam is basically and completely antirational.

The Pope never said that.

>> As a citizen of the West I reject the right of such people liveing in our society.

Spoken like a true Nazi! Is so much hatred in your heart good for you? Ask your doctor.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
140
Ganpat/bagai,

>> It is the right thinking muslims who attacked
Tasleema Nasreen.

They are as right thinking as you are! Seriously though, they are as hate-filled as you are.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
141
GF >>>> "Those who attacked Taslima Nasreen are the most despicable people. They deserve the most severe punishment. They should be condemned by all right-thinking Muslims."

Jash's reply >> hOW ABOUT spending your next 3 yrs on milli gazette or other muslim forums and lecturing there.Like u have been doing here for last 3 yrs when such lectures are needed on islamic forums.

Is OUTLOOK a Hindu publication? The letters section in the print magazine suggests a lage Muslim readership.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
142
Jash/TarunGhosh,

>> HERE again he compares blacks to muslims when it suits him.

Your animus not withstanding, the situation of Muslims today is that of a hated minority who can be spurned and discriminated against at will, and can be the target of mean remarks from bigots and racists. As such they are in the same boat that Dalits, Jews and Blacks once were. Does not matter whether a bigot and a Muslim-baiter like you likes it or not.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
143
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> I would much rather share with a poor liberal
Dane then a muslim fanatic- like Mullah-.

As long as you do not explain with substantiation how I an a Mullah, I have to call you a low hate-spewing liar.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
144
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> GF, has tried to distort the Popes message.

It is you and the jihadis who tried to distort the message. The Byzantine king referred to the sword as the evil. While the Pope now (and the Byzantine king in the past) would see Islam as a threat, he is too civilized to say anything grossly offensive in order to satisfy vultures like you.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
145
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> And reading insane and irrational postings from the true believers.

My posts are only replies to your insane, irrational and hate-filled posts.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
146
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> I think that the muslims in the West will be faceing increaseing bias and discrimination.

Wishful thinking of a bigot!

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
147
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Who can deny if instead of one god there are 10, 100 or none.

Ramblings of a moron!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
148
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> this would brought a number of
muslim hypocrites on to the forefront.

Muslims, Muslims, Muslims, Muslims, ..... it never ends. You are more possessed than obsessed!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
149
Jash/TarunGhosh,

>> The religion itself advocates and preaches jihad,remember! So a beleiver is a jihadi.

What an insane argument! Words like jihadi mean what they are generally understood to mean, not what a stupid idiot like you wants it to mean.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
150
Jash/TarunGhosh,

>> Your claim to be against attack on Tasleema is just empty words and no action.

Spoken like a hate-filled liar that you are.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
151
Jash/TarunGhosh,

>> These moderates are the usual psecular media darlings like shabnam hashmi and irfan habib, who are pretending to be balanced because their credibility is not merely zero,it is negative.

Nothing comes out of your mind except negativism, negativism and more negativism. How can you live with yourself?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
152
>>have you read hindhu dharma compared it with islam

Hindu dharma is a great fountainhead of knowledge and wisdom. I respect those who follow it. Following Islam for me has been a personal journey and I have found peace in Islam.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
153
GanpatBagai,

>> Deportation of mullahs from the
land of the free and the brave, economy class,
to any muslim country of their choice. Is this fair and appropriate. Or should they just be locked up somewhere inaccessible.?

How did you get so many of Hitler's genes?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 10, 2007 12:00 AM
154
Jash/TarunGhosh,

>> Like the peace we saw in the attack on Tasleema.

Those who attacked Tasleema are as bigotic as you and Ganpat/Bagai. There is no place for bigots in any religion.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
155
Jash writes to Adarsh Ali

>> U need to visit a psychiatrist.U are a Hindu who converted to islam by choice

You need to understand that each religion has a certain aspect which can be attractive to some people. Islam offers a very simple doctrine (or simplistic doctrine depending on which side of the fence one is) which can be very attractive to some people. A simple doctrine of God (Old Testament style) who directly gave a Book which tells everything that we need in this world and hereafter. All we need to do is just submit – no questions asked. Religion cannot get any simpler (or simplistic) than this. Christianity, though it accepts the Old Testament, the New Testament adds a layer of complexity in the doctrine of incarnation with respect to Jesus - a level of doctrinal complexity within the Oneness of God. Again, this is a profundity/advanced doctrine or a difficulty depending on which side of the fence one is. And Hinduism of course is more complex and diverse - again a difficulty or richness depending on which way one looks at it.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
156
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Its strange that the Arabs did not or could not draw any inspiration from these intensely eminent works. Neither do present Moslems find these works useful.

There are historical reasons for this 800 year transition. You need to spend more time in a library.

>> Thats perhaps the basis of Pope Benedict when he said ,that whilst Christianity was compatible with reason Islam was not.

And the Pope was severely criticized for saying that. Where was this compatibility when Galileo was tried and harrassed, or when Jews were dubbed Christ-killers? The possibility of Turkey entering EU has put the fear of death in the Vatican. There is ample space for reason in Islam, but not in the mullahs.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
157
Jash/TarunGhosh,

>> verbal posts are harmless.

The mindset is the same. And an imam was beaten up up by a Hindu crowd in UP just this week while his madrasa was being rebuilt. The madrsa was destroyed.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
158
Just before reading this piece I was reading of the attack on Taslima Nasreen anf my honest answer is, F the fatwa.What she wrote in 'Lajja' was 100% correct. I salute her for taking up the cause of innocent Hindus in Bangla Desh. I do not recollet her writing anything against the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and in so far as the law goes, the MLAs should be suspended and criminal action must be taken against them and in fact, the idiot Owaisi who said that the 'fatwa' should be carried out, a charge of threatening to kill must be slapped with the attendant punishment. Unless all right thinking people unite and crush these crooks, they will instead crush us.it,s high time we chuch so called secularism to the dust bin and practice true secualarism with an iron hand - no fear for the innocent and no mercy for the crooks.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
159
Azeem,

I really appreciate you point of view. I see some light and have been ablee to find at least one muslim who is calling a spade a spade. I wish the majority were like you but alas...

All the other self-proclaimed liberal muslims (nothing to be said about the fundamentalists) also find reasons, explanations, excuses without accepting wrongs (e.g. GF look at his other posts - go into history for reasons). I dont care about reasons, i care about today, present, reality. If one wishes to go into history lets do it uniformly though i think that doesnt make a lot of sense.

BTW, i am curious about how Tasleema exactly insulted the prophet. All i know is that she wrote a book (frankly not a great piece of literary work, but controversial nonetheless) that ruffled fundamentalists feathers. Perhaps someone on this board can help me get rid of my ignorance.

Thanks in advance
gaurav gupta
Richmond, USA
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
160
Azeem Taqi,

>> in so far as the law goes, the MLAs should be suspended and criminal action must be taken against them …

A more important ideological war has to be won. These people claim Islamic theology/history to be the basis of their actions and it is agreed by influential Islamic clergy/leaders/apologists. If this ideological/doctrinal war is not decisively won, use of mere legal actions is trying to cure cancer with asprin.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
161
To Mr Parvez Hoodbhoy.
Sad it is but how many Muslims read and appreciate your view today. Fundamentalism is growing at an alrming pace and harking on a past is not helping matters. What we need to do is to work to cleanse the community of the evil of fundamentalism and then think of higher pursuits.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
162
Jash/TarunGhosh,

>> Okay,I lust after a girl.Does that mean that mindset should be equated with the crime of rape?

Actions may not be the same in spite of similarity of mindsets comprising hatred and bigotry.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
163
Jash/TarunGhosh,

>> Subjetive mindset cannot be divined.

Your mindset is on public display day and night on this website. It consists of bitterness, hatefulness and ill wishes toward Muslims and what you venomously call "pseudos". You are of course not criminally liable for spewing so much poison, but your mindset puts you in the same category as the bigots who put their hatred into action, such as the jehadis and the bajrangis.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
164
Instead of commenting on this article, the commentators are focussing on Taslima Nasreen.She does not fit any where in this article.I donot know what was her real motive for a trip to my city,Hyderabad but if it was for taking up the issue of ' women's right' then she was correct in her decision to visit India. Instead of exclusively talking about Muslim women, she should have talk about the bride burnings, female infanticide, Yellama culture in Warangal , the miserable condition of the widows in Mathura and the relatively high rate of HIV prevalence in temple cities like Yadgirigutta, Wangapad and Madurai.
sanaulla sharief
new york, United States
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
165
MFR

You are entitled to your opinion. I see Islam as a liberating force. Nearly a third of the Holy Quran makes a case for reason (Read, for instance, Sura Ar-Rahman).

When Abu Sufyan visited the early Muslims in Medina, Hamza told him "tell the Meccans gods are dead. Only God shall be worshipped'. The Islamic principle of Tawhid is the most powerful concept of God in any religion. Islam does away with man-made gods, idols, imagery, sons, wives and daugthers of God. Sura Ikhlas states "Say, He is Allah, the One and Only God, He begets not, nor is He begotten, and there is none like unto Him". Tawhid instills hope in the mercy of God and removes fear from anything but Allah. Islam liberates, not only from false gods but also from fasle traditions. The Holy Quran makes a powerful case for examining the beliefs and traditions of our ancestors.

Those on this forum who wish to abuse and despise us are free to do so. As Muslims, we beleive in the Mercy and Justice of Allah. As the Quran states, "Unto you is your religion, unto me is mine".
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
166
Despite all the negative propaganda, Islam is still the fastest growing religion in the world. Did any one read the Times magazine of June 11,2007.Islam has witnessed a raise of 1.84% during the year 2000-2005.(Times Magazine)
sanaulla sharief
new york, United States
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
167
Did any one of you read the novel 'Lajja' written by Taslima Nasreen. It looks she was suffering with sexual frustration during that period. Those who have not read it, I suggest they read it, if you can digest the language used in it. To me it is one of the cheap books which the adolescents read in their teenagaes.
sanaulla sharief
new york, United States
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
168
Vinod>> Social problems are there in every castes,sects and religions.

Thanks for acknowledging that. Now let's see you insult your own faith in the same tone that your co-religionsists do to Islam.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
169
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Debates about Islam and you moslems would end when Outlook stops publishing news about these two subjects.

Outlook's intention seems to be to reduce the gulf between communities. The intention of the bigots in this forum seems to be to increase the hatred between communities.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
170
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Unlike reasonable humans muslims are never troubled by doubt. 5 daily prayers, a visit to the mosque every friday, and inshallahs bismillahs , khuda hafiz are sounded a hundred times a day.

They express their love for god, just as you express your hatred for your fellow humans 25 times a day.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
171
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> He said what I have stated. And I will get a quote to prove it.

This means you did not read my reply, or you do not understand English.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
172
Ganpat/Bagai,

>>>> Is hatred good for you.?
>> Your whole wretched community is killing and burning every day.

I was talking of you, not of a community. Something seems to be the matter with your comprehension skills.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
173
Jash/TarunBodepuri,

>> Why should anyone be disgusted only with muslims?Why not christians, buddhists, parsis, sikhs, jews, jains?

We have heard hate remarks in this forum against not only Muslims, but also against Jews, Bengalis and Tamils. Most bigots have only one favorite hate target. Your hate target is Muslims.

>> If Modi was a bigot he would have targeted muslims,like u accuse him since he took office years before Godhra.

False! He became CM in October 2001. The pogrom was in March 2002.

>> Why are muslims the only pain in the ass the world over?

Muslims are a problem and they need to change. Your intense hate and bitterness too are problems.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
174
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Mullah does not take on MFR.

Only this morning you commented on my replies to MFR. You should get yourself checked out for Alzheimer's disease. Since I fully agree with his comments on secularism, they do not call for any response from me.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
175
Jash/Farooki/Ganpatram/Vinod,
digression from the topic under discussion should be avoided, as should personal attacks and vile, foul bad-mouthing.
The prophets of all religions are holy and sacred only for the respective religionists, even if other religionists may respect them. But they were, every one of them, human beings in their own life time and had their strengths and weaknesses. Prophet Mohammed is no different and discussing him should by no means be equated with denigrating/dishonouring/blasphemising him. Muslims should enlarge their tolerance of criticism of Islam by other religionists, particularly since they are almost totally devoid of and/or tolerant of self-criticism.
B.V.SHENOY
BANGALORE, India
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
176
Around 22 hours ago, Kiran Bagachi made another occasional foray in this Forum in order to denigrate, to disparage and to spread discord.

In response, I need to say that as a Christian I can not be manifest as an Itchy Baboon. As for being extremely lucky in learning the 26 letters of the English Language, I need to submit that I am lucky four times over as I also learned the Kannada, Urdu and Bangla Alphabets. I must concede being from an English Medium orientation, my Kannada and Bangla will appear gibberish as would my Konkani. However, my Urdu has become polished during 28 years as a public servant.

In using the word 'Please', I am not begging or pleading but only being courteous.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
177
Good Morning, Mr. Ganpat Ram. The reason why the West ignores the so-called brutality and cussedness of the Muslims is because they were even more brutal and cussed and still are at this very moment in Guantanamo, Iraq and Afghanistan for instance.

As for Bush, Blair, Howard, et al. They will all be dumped in the 'Dustbin Of History. Do you remember Rumsfeld?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
178
People should be able to make a distinction betwen posters who make a contextually relevant criticism of a religion or a religious figure, and those who carry out a systematic, repetative, persistent, never ending, all day vitriolic campaign of malicious attacks on a religion or a community.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
179
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> And I could shed a tear knowing that in a few years they will have been taught that they are
muslims, and the rest of humanity is not. They will probably be taught all the Islamic rituals, and all the usual prejudices will be dinned into their ears. Then they will become muslims a community apart from the others. The girls and boys will be given the Islamic views on sex being sinful, and so being many other things. Most of their lives will be according to a 7th century religion, and it will
be supervised by the family and friends.

What ignorance! What nerve!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
180
JOSEPH KARACHI PAKISTAN///
In the Muslim world, the illiterate….
WHAT IS IT FOR HINDUS?.
In Europe, the number of books…
WHAT IS IT FOR HINDUS?.
) The Fields Prize (often called ….
THERE IS NO INDIAN TOO.

Reply to Joseph

After reading the sorry and shameful state of science in the Islamic world, any right thinking and concerned inhabitant of that retrograde area would sulk in shame and start some introspection, as attempted by the author Pervez Hoodbhoy (of Islamabad, Pakistan) in his article. But instead, as typical of the Islamists and Muslim apologists, you are just indulging in pointing fingers at Indians and Hindus in trying to deflect the valid criticism. The issue is not about the state of science and development in India which fortunately is at a good level and is quite promising. In any case, pointing at others will not help in bettering the sorry state of science in the Islamic World.

BTW, lately, we are witnessing a stong desire amongst various sections of Pakistani society to take to India in a big way; People want to get medical treatment in India, Students want to pursue higher education in India, Singers want to sing in India, Actors from Film and TV want to act in India, writers and lyricists want to work in India, old cricketers want to become commentators on Indian TV channels and associate with games activities in India etc. and also now even bloody blogsters want to post blogs on Indian fora such as this! If you are pining and craving for India so much, then why the hell in the first place you demanded that stupid country of yours??!! Anyway, it was good that the partition removed the diseased and the nuisance causing rabid Paki Muslims from our midst. Now, if you have even an iota of self respect, then instead of hanging around Indians like parasites, the Pakis like you and your ilk should rid yourself of your Indian obsession and do what it takes to measure up to the rest of the world in a respectable way.
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
181
Beer at the 19th. Hole, Mr. Ganpat Ram?. Yes and No will be my answer. Openly and formally, an emphatic no but you can have your beer served you if you are able to arrange it. You know what I mean.

As for Lady Golfers, we have some who are good.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
182
My (belated) replies to GFs comments on my post:

>> Its politics is not founded on the protection of individual rights, but on absolute totalitarianism. …True. Many Western societies went through such stages.

Reply- That’s right! We all here are brainstorming to expedite the end of this depressing stage in Muslims.

>> The number of books translated into Arabic in the last ONE THOUSAND (1000) years is equal to the number of books translated into Spanish alone in ONE (1) year. Between 1980 and 1999, the number of patents from Arab countries registered in the United States was 370. During that same period, the number of patents from South Korea alone was 16,328……Such snapshots do not make a movie.

Reply-Let me put it in Hindi- Samajhdaar ko ishaara kaafi hota hai (a hint is enough for the sensible to understand). But as mentioned above, Muslims refuse to acknowledge the obvious and the explicit; it is too much to expect them to take a hint.

>> the entire Islamic dogma will have to be exorcised and reformed in a radical manner……………Throw out the baby with the bathwater?

Reply – That would be the case if I had suggested extermination of the entire Muslim community for redeeming the World (which I did’nt). I just suggested throwing out the dirty bathwater of Islam and retaining the baby. Being a humanist who hold human life to be of utmost value, I cannot suggest throwing out the baby under any circumstances. Also, it is a telling state that you chose to equate Islam with the baby, it reinforces the notion among people that Muslims cling to Islam like a mother monkey clings to its dead offspring.

Finally, I would like to advise you that all your denials, excuses and defending of Muslims in this issue will do no good for the future of your beloved Ummah who are in dire need of course correction otherwise their misguided cruise will shortly be running aground.
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
183
My (belated) replies to GFs comments on my post:

>> The conclusion is that medieval, retrograde and the highly unscientific and non-secular ideology of Islam ...In this forum, you are preaching to the converted.

Reply-My perception of this forum is not limited to the posters here; for me, things published here are open for anyone who wishes to surf here on the net and you can expect that your voice will reach a large audience to register itself. But you GF cannot be expected to see the large picture as you are occupied 24/7 in trading abuses and repartees with a few posters.

>> The best known philosophers of that era were Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle……It is Europeans who forgot all about them, and could not have revived them if the Arabs had not appreciated, studied and preserved the Greek legacy.

Reply-What the Europeans forgot, they recollected and reinstated that in their debate as the same was not blocked by religion there. Arabs just came into possession and flirted briefly with the Greek Philosophers’ works but did not appreciate it; in fact, thir votaries were shunned and hounded out by the Muslim ummah. Imam Al Ghazali who is the architect of the present form of Islam successfully rejected and barred all influence of this philosophy in Islam which continues with fanatical persistence till date which is what this poster is fighting against. I hope to write separately to Ganpat in details on this issue to clear the air in this regard.


>> Here one will find that everything from quantum mechanics to black holes and genes was anticipated 1400 years ago…..This is true of some modern day Hindu thinkers also. Just ask our own Seshadri.

Reply-Some Hindus who do that do not matter as other Hindus do sufficient work in secular mainstream science to raise the standard of their people’s scientific understanding and development. The problem is that Muslims excuse themselves from useful scientific pursuit (to maintain their cherished status quo) by pretending to be working on Islamic Science project.

>> Some scholars calculated the temperature of Hell……Crackpots like that abound even in Western science.
Reply-Same as above. Few crackpots in Western science do that which are more than compensated by the army of scientists working in meaningful mainstream secular science. However, in Islam, they are only (barely) able as a community to reach upto the level of said crackpots in Western science.
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
184
My (belated) replies to GFs comments on my post:

>> new knowledge is not only not needed, it is a threat to the very existence of Islam, and is therefore evil…..This is true, but such mental lethargy has to be understood in historical and geopolitical terms. Attributing it all to a theology is itself the result of mental lethargy. By the way, Galileo, Darwin and Freud met the same resistances in European Christian societies.

Reply-What you cannot deny, you try to confuse by qualifying your acceptance with an excuse (so typical). If Muslims had been responding to the circumstances (history and geopolitics), they would not be what they are but like the others, taken cue from it to rise up from the morass. However, they continue to be blindly wed to their dead and decaying ideology and shun any influence of the happenings around them remaining steadfast in the refusal to any change. The western society reformed to accept, acknowledge and establish Galileo, Darwin and Freud in their scientific firmament which is what is being attempted to initiate in the Muslim society.

>> Islamic ethics are’nt based on life….No evidence of that. Preoccupation with the hereafter has come about because of psych-historical reasons. It is a withdrawal in face of humiliation and defeat.

Reply- Denial, Denial, Denial, the entire Koran is like a penal code where sins (as per its own definition) and undesirable actions are mentioned to receive punishment in the hereafter in Hell. Similarly, good and pious deeds are said to fetch handsome rewards in the hereafter in Heaven. As mentioned earlier, the entire problem of Muslims is that they refuse to adapt and take lessons from any psychological, historical and geopolitic conditions. The only effect on them in reference to the happenings in the world which they acknowledge is of reaffirmation of their faith by verification and confirmation of the revealed knowledge mentioned by Muhammad and the scripts. This was what the author Peerbhoy was lamenting in his article >>> “Recently discovered astounding scientific facts, accurately described in the Muslim Holy Book and by the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) 14 centuries ago."
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
185
Is it ever possible for all the Hindus of various colors and castes and from different regions to pray behind a Dalit prohit,(just like the imam in a masjid)in one formation, letting the dalit represent the community to a single god ?.
Remeber sometimes when the masjid gets crowded for prayers, during prostration the sole of the foot of the person in front row may be touching the head of the one behind, and they may be ex-Dalits and ex=Brhamins.
sanaulla sharief
new york, United States
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
186
GANPAT RAM >> MFR

I think you are upto date on the religious debate.

In my recollection the Pope Benedict claimed that
the prophet had not brought anything new or useful for humanity. He had brought evil.
And then he mentioned Mohammed spreading his religion by the sword. This is mentioned in muslim texts. The prophet riding to battle with a sword hung around his neck. Hardly an occupation for a messiah of peace, tolerance
and elightenment. The Pope of course said that he was quoting the Byzantine Emperor Emmanuel- but that is just diplomatese. Additionally the pope claimed that Christianity
sought rationality to justify beliefs- can be questioned- where as Islam is firm in its rejection of reason over faith. I am not surprised that GF, has tried to distort the Popes message, because he can not accept it without going into a confrontation with the head
of the church. Its much easier to lie and distort his message, and play down its importance.

Reply: I will reproduce here the script of the relevant portions of the subject lecture delivered on 12 September 2006 by Pope Benedict XVI at the University of Regensburg in Germany for avoidance of any doubt on that account:

Pope Benedict XVI: I was reminded of all this recently, when I read the edition by Professor Theodore Khoury (Münster) of part of the dialogue carried on — perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara — by the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both.

In the seventh conversation edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that sura 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion". According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur'an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God", he says, "is not pleased by blood — and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats… To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death…

The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: "For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality." Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Muslim R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practice idolatry.
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
187
>>"Is it ever possible for all the Hindus of various colors and castes and from different regions to pray behind a Dalit prohit,"

Hinduism is NOT 'purohitism', the way islam has become 'mulla-ism'. 'purohita' in Sanskrit means just 'placed in front', no singular 'leadership in prayer' is implied. Prayers are done by the devotees individually, in their minds, not exactly to the idol concerned but to the 'deity', an operational facet of the Absolute 'symbolized' by it. The principal person organising any worship for a specific purpose is called 'yajamaana' meaning doer of the yagjna.

Valmiki and Vyaasa, the authors of epics on Rama and Krishna, respectively, were of non-'brahmin', tribal/fisherfolk origins, although they are revered highly. Ravana, despised for his wickedness, was the son of a 'brahmin' rishi.

Those learned in vedas and stotras in various langauages were asked to recite them correctly for the devotees to concentrate on their prayers. Priests in hindu temples do not 'preach' hatred for violence against the gods or people of other religions. Stotras in Tamil are also sung during worships in temples, reciters of these are called 'oduvaars' meaning learners/tellers, same as brahmins. Karunanidhi belongs to this 'caste'.

In early days, talents and tendencies decided on social functions of individuals, based on the 'cast' of body/mind/intellect, not heriditary. Cultural and philosophical decay and ghettoization under assuaults by enemy forces, asuras, raakshasas in early days, by asura-beeja arabs/turks in recent millennia, reduced talent-based non-heriditary 'castism' to heriditary 'casteism'.

None of the rich OBC trustees of temples would want to exchange places with the dakshina-taking priests for their living. The fact that dalits should NOT be excluded from temple worship was brought out by saints like Nandanar, Naaraayana-guru et. al. Keeping BCs/dalits outside of temples was done, not by the poor brahmin priests, but by the rich landlord/warlord OBCs.


Touching the feet of other devotees during namaskars in temples is not detested by hindu devotees. Sometimes gifts to all devotees are given respectfully by some devotees.


I know I am only wasting my time and energy in writing the above. The casteist OBCs and marxists whose votebanks are moslems and unlikely to change their views.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
188
(End of Part 4 of 5)
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
189
(Part 5 of 5)
Greek Philosophy, West and Islam


The Archbishop Raymundo of Toledo was so excited by what was found in the Muslim libraries of Spain that he founded a "translation center," and invited scholars of all backgrounds, disciplines, and religions to work there. To the great credit of his intellectual integrity, he didn't try to censor any of the material to fit his own beliefs.

The extensive material included the works of Aristotle (and those of his Commentator, Ibn Rushd) that had survived the vicissitudes of time, including the efforts of the Muslim authorities to destroy them. Unfortunately, not everything had survived, but a lot of it had. Bits and pieces of Aristotle’s work had leaked into Italy to the university students there from time to time over a period of some years, but now, instead of fragmentary bits and pieces, whole treatises, including Ibn Rushd’s Commentaries, began to flood them. A school of "Averroists" (the Spanish name of Ibn Rushd was “Averroes”) was formed at the University of Padua, where his work on Aristotle breathed life into the empirical and inductive approach to the sciences. The light was shining in Europe again. There were also serious efforts to reconcile Greek Philosophy with the Beliefs of the Church. St. Thomas Aquinas, also a genius of the first order, tried to reconcile the works of Aristotle with the beliefs of the Church.

Although ultimately St. Thomas failed in his attempt to reconcile Aristotle and the Church, his efforts had a huge effect on the Italian students. You know how university students get when they're excited. Aristotle, once lost to the West, was now available to them on a widespread basis, and in Latin, no less! Just as had happened in Athens, Byzantium, Pergamum, Alexandria, Baghdad, Damascus, Nisibis, Cordoba, Toledo, etc., Aristotelian thinking invigorated the intellectual life first of Italy, and then of the rest of Europe, in a way that hadn't been seen for a thousand years. It was the beginning of a period of thunderous philosophical growth and intellectual progress that resulted in another great paradigm shift - from malaise, dysphoria, and intellectual stagnation, to enthusiasm, hope, and intellectual growth.

The path back into the light wasn't without its rough spots; even Socrates, Plato's teacher, had been condemned to death for "rocking the boat," and many thinkers who did the same in the West were cruelly oppressed. But the djinn was out of the bottle, and the Renaissance, followed by the Enlightenment, then by the Industrial Revolution, and then by the Age of Information, could not be put back in.

A chain of philosophers and philosophically sophisticated thinkers from Aristotle to Ibn Rushd to Thomas Aquinas to Locke to Madison and Jefferson, changed the world forever; it led to a burst of creativity, confidence, prosperity, and respect for human nature that had been unprecedented in human history.

Meanwhile, back in the Middle East, the Fundamentalists had won, mainly by using the same violence that had been so instrumental in their successful territorial conquests up to that time. Al Ghazali succeeded in purging forever from the body of Islam any influence and place for Aristotelian Philosophy and with it the last hopes for allowance of reason and rationalization to operate within Islam perished for good.

(End of Part 5 of 5)
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
190
(Part 2 of 5)
Greek Philosophy, West and Islam


Very importantly, they had a tremendous admiration for Greek culture, including Greek philosophy, which they went to great lengths to preserve. The Roman marketplaces were home to many vendors selling books, and the Romans were the first to establish a truly public library system. The works of Plato and Aristotle et al. were widely available in these libraries, as well as in private collections.

In the 4th century C.E., when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, problems began cropping up for the pagans. The religions of the pagans were, of course, competing belief systems, and Christianity, while the official state religion, was still a minority belief system. Christians felt threatened by the continuing influence of the pagans. Before long, pagan temples were being destroyed, along with everything (including the libraries) in their compounds.

Therefore, back in 4th century Byzantium, Christianity flourished. Pagans were becoming less and less welcome, and life could be pretty unpleasant for "idea-mongers" whose ideas competed with those of Christianity. The "idea-mongers" were the philosophers, of course. So when the formerly pagan Greek city of Byzantium became the Christian city of Constantinople, and the rest of the old pagan cities that had been Greek centers of learning became Christian too, the pagan philosophers left for areas where they felt less threatened. Thus all around in the remnants of the Western Empire, the "no pagans" sign had been hung out.

The less threatening regions that the pagan philosophers emigrated to were the still largely pagan Arab lands of Mesopotamia, and non-Arab pagan Persia. There, once again, great centers of learning sprang up, and once again, they appeared for the same reason as first one had in Greek cities, then later in Byzantium, Pergamum, and Alexandria. That reason was Greek philosophy.

Among the most famous of these new centers of learning established under the influence of the Greek philosophers were Baghdad and Damascus in Mesopotamia, and the Persian city of Nisibis.

There, for about another three hundred plus years, Greek-style scholarship flourished. The pagan Arabs and Persians were intelligent, energetic, and curious, and the Greek way of thinking found fertile ground among their populations. By the time Islam took over in the 7th century, there were well-established, intellectually active communities that had been thriving there for several hundred years, the Muslim bureaucrats were not yet actively opposed to learning, and scholarship continued to thrive in these areas for about another two and a half centuries, with a “tail-out” lasting somewhat longer.

The reason that the Muslim administrators didn't concern themselves with opposing scholarship is that Islam hadn't yet been codified and written down, so there was little in the way of anything the bureaucrats could refer to that condemned learning, scholarship, or even (gasp!) debate. The Islamic canonical texts, including the Koran, wouldn't be complete until sometime in the 9th century, when Muslim clerics got together and decided what Islam was to "look like" from that time forward. It wasn’t a pretty picture, as we know all too well today.

The purpose of getting all that material down on paper was to establish just how the conquered peoples were to be kept in submission, and the rules that everyone was to follow. So, up until then, there wasn't too much of a problem with learning.
(End of Part 2 of 5)
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
191
(Part 1 of 5)
Greek Philosophy, West and Islam

Reply to Ganpat Ram

Ganpat Ram>> MFR-"It’s the Arabs who get the credit for preserving the Greek philosophers" Presumably without them Europe would have been mired in darkness.
Amazing having preserved the Greek philosophers, the Arabs failed on all counts in developing their society.
Reply: For your understanding, please receive below the account of history as it played out with reference to the Greek Philosophical Works:

Aristotle worked in several different places and was ultimately hired to tutor the young son of King Philip II of Macedon who grew up to be Alexander, later known as "The Great." When Alexander grew up, he conquered a goodly portion of the known world at the time, and of course, the conquered lands were heavily influenced by Greek culture. The process was called "Hellenization," since Greece's name at the time was "Hellas." And since Aristotle was Alexander's teacher, Aristotle's ideas were a big part of "Hellenization." Mostly, though, it was the freedom to think and debate ideas that was such a boon to progress. Eventually, because competition of ideas was possible, the best ideas eventually won, resulting in progress.

Very soon after the conquest of the new lands, great centers of learning, not unlike Athens, began to spring up. They became great centers of learning for the same reason Athens had become a great center of learning – Greek (especially Aristotelian) philosophy. The best known of these centers of learning were the cities of Byzantium, Pergamum, and Alexandria. There were "Alexandrias" all over the Hellenized world, although today, the map will show you towns with names like "Iskander" or something like that. I'm talking about the Alexandria in Egypt.

These cities had temples that housed magnificent libraries and research institutes, the forerunners of today's universities, in their compounds. Scholars gathered in them from all over the world, inventing all kinds of things, making all sorts of discoveries, and studying mathematics, medicine, physics, astronomy, and, of course, philosophy.

The greatest library and research institute of all was in the compound of the Temple of the Muses in Alexandria (although some argue that the best was the Serapeum, another temple library in Alexandria). Whenever a traveler entered the city, any books he had with him were confiscated, taken to the Library on the temple grounds, and copied. The copies were returned to the owners, while the originals were kept in the temple library. It became the greatest collection of knowledge on the face of the earth.

Greek influence spread to all the peoples around the Mediterranean, including the Romans. The Romans are often unfairly thought of as boors, mainly because of the nasty "games" they adopted from their Etruscan neighbors’ funeral rites and enjoyed so much, and because of the persecutions of the early Christians. But they were awfully good at a lot of things.

The Romans were excellent at things like the law, engineering, literature, military organization (they were the first to have physicians on the battlefield, for example, and military hospitals for their wounded), public health, general governance, and made significant advances in medicine and surgery.
(End of Part 1 of 5)
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
192
(Part 4 of 5)
Greek Philosophy, West and Islam

He had a hard row to hoe. Al-Ghazali properly interpreted the works of the Greek philosophers and their Muslim followers as a dangerous influence that could lead all the way from serious doubt to heresy and even total disbelief with rejection of Islam, if people were allowed to think independently. The inhabitants of the region, from scholars to tribesmen, weren't particularly dedicated to the literal interpretation of the Koran and the prohibitions on knowledge that Al-Ghazali was promoting.

Now the war between reason and revelation began in earnest.

Al-Ghazali used just enough of Aristotle's invention of logic to make a book he wrote, called The Incoherence of the Philosophers, look really convincing. Actually, despite its disguise, it was an attack on everything Aristotle stood for. Aristotle had invented the art of definition, the dictionary, logic, the Law of Causality, the Law of Identity, etc., and had established that reason was the means by which human beings acquire knowledge. But pretty soon, under pressure from the growing influence of fundamentalism, the community of Arab scholars and philosophers who had routinely "thought outside the fundamentalist Islamic box" began to shrink, and finally they disappeared altogether. During this period of conflict between the rationalists and the fundamentalists, there was the Muslim version of the later Spanish Inquisition, called the “mihnah.” This was initially a tribunal of judges who screened candidates for office and jobs by imposing a religious “litmus test” on them, but which soon degenerated into a means whereby beliefs were imposed with coercion of all sorts, including torture. It was used by both sides, as favor teetered first to one side then the other.

Al-Ghazali's use of a hated invention of the hated Greek philosophers, logic, as a weapon against them, is quite reminiscent of the present day terrorists’ use of the hated philosophy and technology of the hated West as a weapon against them. It was a moral sanction tactic to use stolen ideas then, and it remains one now.

The logic that Al-Ghazali stole (and distorted) from Aristotle went beyond its use as a weapon; while Al-Ghazali attacked all the Greek philosophers.

Remember, in those days, "philosophy" included the sciences, so scientific inquiry, along with everything else based on reason, was doomed under the influence of Al-Ghazali.

By about one hundred years after Ibn Rushd's death, "ossification" of intellectual life in the Islamic world was well underway. In its rejection of Ibn Rushd and Aristotle, Islam lost an opportunity to continue to participate with the rest of the world in intellectual accomplishment. Instead, they lost their Greek-inspired "Golden Age," and sank into a "Dark Age" that has continued with fanatical persistence to this day.

About the same time, in the 12th century, the Christians began to push the Muslims out of Spain. Remember, Aristotle’s works had been brought to Spain by Muslim collectors, while the Europeans had all but forgotten that he even existed. Because of this, Europe experienced a "Dark Age" too.

The Christians didn't rid Spain of the Muslims entirely until 1492, but for about three hundred years before that, during the long effort to recover their land from the invaders, they slowly regained territory. As a result, they also regained access to many of the formerly Muslim centers of learning.
(End of Part 4 of 5)
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
193
(Part 3 of 5)
Greek Philosophy, West and Islam

So, until then, real scholarly progress was made in these Arab and Persian sanctuaries of the Greek philosophers; very important contributions were made by Muslim scholars who had inherited the new centers of learning. It was a brilliant society, a true "Golden Age," full of invention, discussion, and the aforementioned debate. Competition in the realm of ideas was permitted, and little attention was paid to any sort of restriction on the intellect. Al-Kindi, a Muslim philosopher of the 9th century who admired Aristotle, openly acknowledged the Muslims' debt to the pagan Greeks. He said that without the Greeks, it would have been impossible for the Muslims to have accomplished everything they had achieved, even if they had spent their entire lifetimes working as fast as possible and trying as hard as they could.

It wasn't just in Mesopotamia and Persia where Aristotle and the other Greek philosophers were studied. Their works were carried to the westernmost reaches of the conquered lands, to Spain. There, in the 11th century, a Spanish-born Muslim in Cordoba, named Ibn Rushd, became fascinated with Aristotle. There is some thought that his mother may have been a convert to Islam.

Ibn Rushd was a genius. He was an accomplished physician, jurist, and philosopher. He was utterly enchanted with Aristotle, and studied his works extensively. He wrote extensively about them too, so much so that he became famous for his writings about Aristotle. He was called "The Great Commentator" (the commentaries being about Aristotle and his philosophy, of course). Ibn Rushd wrote at the beginning, intermediate, and advanced levels, and it was thought that much of his work was aimed at students.

Shortly before his death (which may have been under suspicious circumstances), Ibn Rushd was denounced and banished, and his Muslim colleagues attempted to destroy his works. About a hundred years earlier, when Islam was codified and the Koran and Traditions had been written down, the clerics had maintained that all knowledge worth knowing had already been “revealed” to Mohammed by Allah, so they slammed the doors shut on any possibility of change or debate.

Ibn Rushd crossed that line. For example, he complained that Muslim progress was greatly impeded by its attitude towards women, who were treated like possessions and ornaments instead of being allowed to participate in productive work and intellectual activity. Ibn Rushd's support of women, as well of Aristotle's view of the human mind and of the importance of reason, of knowledge, were considered "un-Islamic." The mullahs knew this was a threat to their “frozen-in-time” policy, and punished Ibn Rushd for holding them.

Despite all this, Ibn Rushd was “rehabilitated” and when he died, he was properly credentialed to enter paradise.

About a hundred years before Ibn Rushd's death, another Muslim philosopher, al-Ghazali, was "credited" with being the original "founding father" of Islamic fundamentalism. Many consider him to be second in importance only to Muhammad in matters of Islamic thought.

Al-Ghazali was born in Persia, where he was a well respected scholar, and was appointed to teach at Nizamiya University in Baghdad. The founding documents of Islam had already been completed and were well established, along with the restrictions they imposed on independent thinking. Still, there were still some scholars around at the time who didn't toe the line. Al-Ghazali was conflicted, and began to experience a period of intense religious doubt. He left his family to take a ten-year "leave of absence" to practice asceticism and meditate. By the time he came back, his doubts had vanished, and he dedicated his life to making the literal word of Islam stick.
(End of Part 3 of 5)
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
194
The Cowards of MIM attacking a defenseless Woman

It is the duty of the Indian nation, which proudly presents itself as a champion of Human Rights, Freedom, Secularism and Justice to come down firmly and in an exemplary way on the EUNUCHS of the Majlise Ittehadul Muslimeen who attacked Taslima Nasreen and are brandishing their masculinity and their Muslim credentials after doing so.
I swear I would have broken the necks of these b**tards by my bare hands had I been present on the spot.

India’s claim to being a great, liberal and forward state which is not much behind than its counterparts in the Free and the developed Western World is at stake. If it wants to be seriously reckoned as one, it has to prove on occasions like these that it can stand up for upholding justice, liberalism, tolerance, democracy and the right to dissent by a courageous but defenseless woman who is looking up to India as a beacon of freedom and enlightenment and would do the same for her as was done for Rushdie by the UK upon his being threatened by the Iranian regime. Tasleema holds India in high esteem as an ideal model state. It is already shameful for India to not have given Citizenship as applied to this remarkable woman in keeping with the great traditions of humanity and knowing of the persecution faced by her in her native land.

Also, the Indian Justice system should take suo moto notice of these horrendous fatwas which are so shameless in their exhortation to its faithful to commit crimes. These fatwas are licensed hunting permits; only the victims here are not forest animals but living human beings. These fatwas are a clear violation of the Penal code and are criminal in nature. The m***erf**ker muftis who issue these fatwas should be immediately arrested and tried for crimes against humanity and the Indian State. Also, the evidence of these crimes would not be difficult to gather as these fatwas are formally put on paper. This will put the fear of punishment in these lowly vermin who scrounge in the gutters and have the gall to pronounce such edicts on respectable people. Once they are taken to task over these, all the bravado, bluster and the frivolousness in issuing fatwas will vanish faster than water drops on a hot plate.

In this context, even the World courts should take notice of these international fatwas issued by the likes of the Iranian criminal religious leader Khomeini and should register cases against them asking them under what jurisdiction did they pronounce fatwa on the citizen of other sovereign country? Each and every such criminal fatwa which is issued anywhere in the world needs to be countered and checked immediately in the above way.
The World Court should demand the accused to be given up by their respective countries to face trial as done in the case of the Libyan Lockerbie Bombers or else face sanctions and penalties.

I also want to ask, how is it that the mainstream Muslims who shout themselves hoarse in disowning and distancing themselves from that evil b***ard Osama Binladin and his AlQaeda did not ever produce a single fatwa either from Saudi or any other part of the Muslim World to throw OBL and his associates out of the Islamic community in the 6 years since he committed the dastardly act, whereas they remain so prompt in issuing fatwas over the likes of Rushdie and Taslima?? The whole community is a bloody criminal community. The whole mask of false respectability and gentleness is beginning to fall off to show all its true evil face. Everyday, the world gets to see more proof of its inhumanness, intolerance and its evil behaviour. The day is not far off when it will meet its doom.
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
195
Sanaulla: I gave a detailed reply to your good question posted at 4.55.59 pm ist today; but, as if to show that your question remains unanswered, the churchian editors of OUTLOOK have reposted column 3 as column 1, with your question appearing again 'unanswered'. Honest and fairminded hindus and moslems may try to understand eachother by questions and answers. But, the churchians are runninng the OUTLOOK only to show both moslems and hindus in equally bad light as compulsive fighters indefinitely, so that the former Pope's conversion harvest can progress unabated. JESUS CHRIST WILL NOT APPROVE OF THIS.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
196
My reply to GFs remarks on my post in the other forum for Hamid Ansari:

>> MFR, The influence of the Tableegh Jamaat:

GF: I fully agree with this. The spread of Jamaat's message has had a very regressive effect on Indian Muslims. Activities of the VHP and other Parivar outfits have facilitated the rise of the Jamaat. The message to the Indian Muslims should be that they do not enhance the security of their faith by belonging to the Jamaat which only makes a cult out of their faith.
My reply: Thanks for agreeing and accepting the adverse impact of the regressive TJ. However, it is somewhat spoilt by your blaming VHP/Sangh Parivar for its rise. How come TJ made such inroads into the Muslim communities in Pakistan, Bangladesh and in south Asian Muslims in the African continent, UK and US if it was facilitated by the VHP-Parivar as claimed by you? Just a blame and an excuse.

Also, I felt like laughing when I read that TJ will make a cult out of our religion which implicitly suggests that it is not one presently. As it is, ISLAM IS THE BIGGEST AND THE MOST INTOLERANT CULT MANKIND HAS EVER KNOWN. It does not require a Tableegh Jamaat to turn it into something which it always was.
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
197
Reply to Vinod-B’lore

>>>,whats needed for this self styled reforming Muslims is to look inside thier own problems.The need of the hour is not reform but a resolve to fight those evil forces who call themselves as the warriors of God or the Jehadis who are killing the fellow Muslims.Before talking of the reform any further the reformers should have the spine to disown the Jehadis. Why they have to fill the valuable space of the forum unnecessarily
Are you blind of the eye or blind of the mind that you do not realize the unequivocal opposition to and the clear stand against my co-religionists taken by me not only against the Jihadists and Islamists, but even against the mainstream so called moderates in this forum. I have been labeled as an Apostate, Zionist, Sanghi and other choiciest adjectives. I have literally stuck my neck out in the process. I have the uprightness and the principles which make me target and criticize my own people alone and not give them any margin or benefit of doubt when asking for them to mend their ways. I never tell people from other communities to fall in line on any issue even if their misconduct is very well known to me. I leave it for the members of their community to preach and correct them in that regard.
That is what is expected of you. Go and do some soul searching and introspection about what needs to be reformed among ur own before lecturing me. Believe me, you will find a lot to go about there.

From my feedback, I know of many posters who read, respond and appreciate my takes put out in these fora. I try to be comprehensive and cover the topic from all relevant angles. I don’t need ur certificate of approval to know that my usage of space available in the forum is appropriate or otherwise.
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
198
MFR,

>> "I have the uprightness and the principles which make me target and criticize my own people alone and not give them any margin or benefit of doubt when asking for them to mend their ways. I never tell people from other communities to fall in line on any issue even if their misconduct is very well known to me. I leave it for the members of their community to preach and correct them in that regard. That is what is expected of you. Go and do some soul searching and introspection about what needs to be reformed among ur own before lecturing me. Believe me, you will find a lot to go about there."

While I am the one who called you an apostate or a zionist or a sanghi (if you re-read your very first post in this forum, you will see why), I fully agree with what you say above. Vilification of others is often a device used to avoid looking at oneself.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
199
MFR to Joseph,

>> if you have even an iota of self respect, then instead of hanging around Indians like parasites, the Pakis like you and your ilk should rid yourself of your Indian obsession and do what it takes to measure up to the rest of the world in a respectable way.

Considering the number of articles that OUTLOOK publishes on Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka (just one on Burma so far), there is no reason why we should not welcome participation by Joseph in this forum. Even if some of the things he says may make some of the posters mad, we have a lot of posts by our countrymen which have the same effect. And Joseph often provides good insights.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 11, 2007 12:00 AM
200
>> The idea of one god and his messenger Mohammed
is the core belief of muslims. The Greeks had several gods, and no messenger.
And they were far more developed then the muslims
at that time and remain so today.

There were no Muslims at that time. Your ignorant platitudes are so boring.

>> I remmember a book by Dean Swift- Gullivers Travells.

It is Jonathan Swift, not Dean Swift.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
201
"Considering the number of articles that OUTLOOK publishes on Pakistan, ....
....there is no reason why we should not welcome participation by Joseph in this forum. ...
...Joseph often provides good insights"


Awww...how sweet.. a little love fest between the Paki and the Paki-wanna-be - even echoing each other's lines...

Get a motel room, you distended rear-ends!!
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
202
MFR,

>> My perception of this forum is not limited to the posters here.

In this forum you just add another anti-Islamic voice to a sea of anti-Islamic voices.

>> Arabs just came into possession and flirted briefly with the Greek Philosophers’ works but did not appreciate it;

I would think that al-Kindi, al-Farabi, Ibn Sina and Ibn Rushd undrstood, discussed and interpreted Greek philosophers, especially Aristotle, well. Greek thinking also contributed to the development of Arab medical practise. It is however easier to devalue a culture than to reaffirm it.

>> Some Hindus who do that do not matter ...

It is more than "some Hindus who do not matter" when it comes to claiming that ancients had anticipated Einstein!

>> Few crackpots in Western science do that.

If there are crack-pot scientists in all societies, their existence would not prove the anti-scientific bent of any particular religion.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
203
MFR,

>> If Muslims had been responding to the circumstances (history and geopolitics), they would not be what they are but like the others, taken cue from it to rise up from the morass.

Historical vicissitudes have produced slumps in other civilizations too; India and China are prime examples.

>> the entire Koran is like a penal code where sins (as per its own definition) and undesirable actions are mentioned to receive punishment in the hereafter in Hell.

Read Deuteronomy or Manuvad. The bulk of the Quran is couched in 7th century allegories, idioms and figures of speech. The task is not excision, which would be impossible, but a patient and gradual reinterpretation. A liberal and humanistic dogma would be the desired result.

>> Samajhdaar ko ishaara kaafi hota hai.

A long list of negatives is not just an ishaara!

>> like a mother monkey clings to its dead offspring.

If it is dead, what are you reforming?

>> Ummah who are in dire need of course correction.

You can help people correct their course only if you can talk to them. The way you have framed your message, you cannot talk to them or even reveal your identity.



.


Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
204
MFR,

>> "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".

The Byzantine emperor (as quoted by Pope Benedict) gives only one example of "things only evil and inhuman", namely to spread faith by the sword. Most Muslim theologians would agree that spreading faith by the sword is wrong. The next Sunday Pope Benedict said, "These (words) were in fact a quotation from a Medieval text which do not in any way express my personal thought."

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
205
MFR,

>> if it was facilitated by the VHP-Parivar as claimed by you?

The social and economic boycott of Muslims being propagated by the VHP and other parivar outfits has created anxiety and anger which helps swell the Jammat's membership. Other grievances and concerns in other countries would have the same effect. Remember that the Jamaat is the brainchild of a Palestinian, so grievance may be its second name.

>> TJ will make a cult out of our religion.

A decentalized religion spread over 50 countries with hundreds of different groups with their own interpretations of theology is not a cult.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
206
Goongaparbat,

>> Bodepudi/Surya/Sariputra
Since when have you become MUSLIM FOR REFORM.Abandoned Buddhism? Had circumcision?Only you are capable of writing such lengthy and nonsensical stuff.

Food for thought!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
207
Vinod>> Communal flare up can take at any place.

Gujarat was different from any other riot India has seen. It was a well orchestrated hate-inspired pogrom against Muslims by Narendra Modi and his despicable gang of Hindu marauders.

I am waiting for the day to see Modi hanged for his crimes against humanity.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
208
Ganpat Ram the despicable bigot>>The girls and boys will be given the Islamic views on sex being sinful.

This exposes your utter ignorance of Islam. Islam celebrates sex. Sex, with a legitimate partner, is equated with worship. This may come as news to you. But Islam is a sexy religion and I am proud of it.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
209
MFR>> Anyway, it was good that the partition removed the diseased and the nuisance causing rabid Paki Muslims from our midst.

No sensible Muslim reformer can make such a negative , Islamophobic statement. I am convinced that MFR is our regular Hindu zealot.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
210
Sheshadri>> Hinduism is NOT 'purohitism'

Mislaeding assertion, Sheshadriji. You know very well how purohits have occupied a central position in Hindu life. They dictate everything from birth to death. And most often, they are oppressive and backward.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
211
Vinod>> Dont you think the people who kill innocents are committing a crime against the humanity and must be hanged.

I am tired of apparently liberal Hindus justifying Gujarat massacre of Muslims by the Godhra incident. The Godhra incident was reprehensible and the perpetrators should be brought to justice.
Gujarat massacres CANNOT be justified by the Godhra incident.

Anyway, the readiness with which the Gujarat government in connivance with the police orchestrated the massacre points to only one thought - the Guajarat porgrom was pre-meditated by Narendra Modi his gang of rabid blood-thirsty Hindu marauders.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
212
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> The right route for muslims is to follow the example of Attaturk in Turkey.

How many times have I expressed my admiration of Ataturk, and of secularism? I really wonder if you have memory problems or whether you just do not read posts. By the way some of the problems you describe for Danish Muslims and their children may be because of lack of education and rural origins of many of the immigrants from the subcontinent or North Africa. Among the families that I know in North America and UK, the children were always in the mainstream, and have graduated from Harvard, Yale, Columbia, UCLA, Iowa Medical College, NYU Law School, London School of Economics, and SOAS (London Unversity). I applaud the efforts of the Danish government to put Muslim children in mainstream facilities.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
213
Jash/TarunGhosh,

>> so????The point was that Godhra train was the cause or the riots.

Check what you had said in your post to which I was responding.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
214
Jash/TarunGhosh,

>> MFR also refered to hatred ingrained in muslims against nonmuslims and indictment of muslims.

Such statements come about because you do not follow the posts in a thread.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
215
Ghulam Faruki,

In forums after forums, I see Hindus justifying Gujarat massacre of Muslims. So, are the Hindus a group of blood-thirsty terrorists?
Tabs
Goettingen, germany
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
216
MFR,

>> The whole mask of false respectability and gentleness is beginning to fall off to show all its true evil face.

The mask of false respectability and gentleness is falling off of your face too to show your true evil face.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
217
Tabs,

There is a rotten part of Hindu society that justifies something like Gujarat. Many of the Hindu posters probably belong to that group.

My own family - many of whom are Hindus- have always felt ashamed of the Gujarat crimes. I can assure you that most Hindus are decent people who share core values with Indian Muslims.
Adarsh Ali Vidhyarti
Montreal, Canada
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
218
TABS,

>> In forums after forums, I see Hindus justifying Gujarat massacre of Muslims. So, are the Hindus a group of blood-thirsty terrorists?

Hindus inhabiting online forums are not representative of Hindus in general.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
219
Jash/TarunGhosh,

>> About faults in Hinduism,MFR many hindus are constantly and freely pointing to faults.

The only fault you find with some Hindus is that they are secular, which according to you is a mortal sin!!!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
220
Jash/TarunGhosh,

>> A CAIR ARAB GF rooting for his PAKI buddy JOE.

Since you keep looking to form alliances with fellow bigots in the forum all the time, you assume that others are like you too.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
221
Jash/TarunGhosh,

>> Is Modi killing muslims now?Has he got rid of muslims from gujarat, like hindus were eliminated from kashmir?

As soon as you lose an argument, you change the parameters!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
222
LBMN, I am not exactly enamoured of your filthy mind and filthier tongue. However, can I know who is willing to Welcome me in this Forum?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
223
Just look at the history of the mughals it is always bloody.
Son imprisoning the father , or killing all his brothers .
The king cutting of hands of all his workers so that another monument can never be built.
Imprisonment, beheading and all other extreme forms of violence has been practised right from the lodh"s to aurangzeb.
murali nair
mumbai, India
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
224
Islam is, Mr. Vinod, a very simple Religion to accept and practice.

The "Jehadi" aspect is its political side which comes in to play when Muslims are discriminated against as in Palestine and in Indian Administered Jammu and Kashmir or attacked as in Afghanistan and Iraq and so on. Of its 1.37 Billion followers, about Ten Million, at best, may have "Jehadi" inclinations.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
225
I do not have biases, Mr. Vinod. I state Fact. I do not praise Islam. I just focus on why it is in the focus. I do not hate Indians. I just state things as they are about India such as the fact that 880 million live less than happy lives or that 600 million are discriminated on the basis of caste and creed or that the much-touted IT Boom has a marginal "trickle down effect" or that NRIs talk about an India that is a figment of their imaginations.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
226
ALI: Go to any temple in India. The keys to the temple are delivered only at the house of the trustee or dharmakarta for the temple, usually an OBC. The priests merely work to clean the sanctorum and perform poojas to the idols. Earlier, some priests were telling the purana stories to those who may listen, not any more. Even there, the priests do not denigrate other religions, they can't, because the Bhagawat Gita says hindus should respect all godheads of all religions.

Slowly, you are proving to be only Ali, neither aadarsh, nor a vidyaarti, certainly not Hari.
If Modi and his followers were fanatics, they should have responded more fiercely to akshardam attack, directly on the swaminarayan temple, than they did to Godhra. Think of Mahaamati, the great mind [mohammed], Gabriel [gaapriya, narada who brought him Kuran, khud-aneeta-saama, the psalms voluntarily given, and Allah = hara= Siva, respectfully and come to fair conclusions.

Do not misjudge hinduism and purohits from what you are told by OBC politicians, who only want your moslem votes and then will forget you, only build palaces for themselves, like that of Arjun Singh in MP.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
227
Do you really believe, Mr. Ganpat Ram, that Shiv Sena goons would not beat up any one against Shivaji?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
228
Ali: Jash is right. Purohit has very little power over devotees in hinduism. The mullahs can issue fatwas on moslems. Christian priests can excommunicate the church members and deny burial rituals. On hindus, even aachaaryas do not have any such powers. They can bless, advise, give prasadams to those who come to them. Gurus are respected, but the Absolute is recognized as the ultimate guru, guruh saakshaat param bramha, others are only His representatives.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
229
Gulam:>>"Hindus justifying Gujarat massacre of Muslims. So, are the Hindus a group of blood-thirsty terrorists?"

I was very much online during the gujarat riots.
Middla-class moslems were being given protection in their houses by middle class hindu neighbors. They went on record saying moslem shopkeepers, who were not behaving fanatically enough, were being attacked by Pak infiltrators, dressed up as aadivasi hindus, deploring such things happenning. Musharreff was then in New York, UN, utilized it for making anti-India points in the UN general assembly.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
230
You have got it wrong again, Mr. Ganpat Ram. Muslims are to live with Kafirs and convert them, and that is exactly what they are doing in Casteist India much to your chagrin.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
231
You are wrong, still again, Mr. Ganpat Ram. The West does not hate or despise Islam. It just does not like some Muslims, and for obvious reasons.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
232
""Muslims are to live with Kafirs and convert them, and that is exactly what they are doing in Casteist India much to your chagrin.""

CHACHA YOU TOO ARE KAFIR .YOU COVERTED ??
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
233
ALI: The concept of mohammed as messenger of peace and harmony for worship of ONE God and not many idols must be seen in the context of what he saw the Arab tribes doing, when he was born.
I read this in a century-old book in the IITMadras library, book written by one Mr. Narayanan! There was some temple tower type structure with lots of different idols on it in the place the Nabhi covered up as the present structure of KHAABA. Each tribe was choosing its own idol as God, worshipping it, and fighting with other tribes who chose other idols for worship. {my spiritual perception is that the structure was the Sree Cakra worshipped by Kubera, elder brother of ravana, an earlier birth of Mohammed, at the top of the alaka ice-cone, which melted off along with the meru northpole icecone for ganges flow and biblical flood to happen.} Mohammed objected to this form of idolatry where each itself was considered a different God, tribes fighting peacelessly over them. He stopped them.
Gauri and Gazzni did not know that hindus and buddhists were NOT doing that kind of idolatry, but theirs was symbolatry, the idols only symbolized the one Absolute they saw in their minds in different facets of merciful action. Had they known, they might, perhaps, not have destroyed the Buddha vihaaras and the hindu temples in Afghanistan and India.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
234
People do have issues with Islam. However, as many have said, a lot of people in the west fear the religion and not the people. However, science has nothing to do with religion. As an example, the 2006 Ramanujan prize for contribution to math was given to Terence Tao. The award ceremony took place on December 18, 2006 at the Abdus Salam International Centre for Theoretical Physics (ICTP) in Trieste, Italy (please see AMS website). Abdus Salam and Ramanujan are connected, this has to do with contribution to math and science. People in Islam need to read about someone like Terence Tao, who became one of the youngest fellow of the Royal Society (at 31), the youngest Fields medal winner (at 31), the youngest full professor at UCLA (at 23) and the youngest winner of the international math olympiad. Can a talent of such a person be nurtured in Islam? Ramanujan became a fellow of the royal society at 30 (probably the youngest math fellow to date). Please Terry Tao's webpage on career advice in math.
http://terrytao.wordpre...e-a-genius-to-do-maths/
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
235
G F >>>Considering the number of articles that OUTLOOK publishes on Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka (just one on Burma so far), there is no reason why we should not welcome participation by Joseph in this forum….. And Joseph often provides good insights.

My Take:
A Persian anecdote goes as follows:

There were two ordinary maulvis who used to say prayers in the village mosque. As they were not much qualified, people would not think much of them and did’nt heed to their sermons. So they hit upon a plan to raise their status. They went to another village where nobody knew of their status and decided to do as they say in Persian:
“Man tora Haji Bagoyam, Tu mara Haji Bago”
That is, I shall call you a Haji and you call me a Haji in return. In this way we will bear witness for each other being Hajis and increase our status in the process.

Think this is the arrangement between GJ and Paki Joseph.You scratch my back, I scratch yours.

However, on a serious note, I feel all posters should stay in the forum. Can’t help but remember a sher (couplet) in Urdu by great romantic poet Jigar Moradabadi:

Chaman mein ikhtelaate rang-o-boo se baat banti hain,
Tumhi Tum ho to kyat tum ho, Humi hum hain to kya hum hain.

(The garden becomes complete when there is a mixing of colors and fragrances of various hues; what’s the point if its either only we or you all the way).

I was only telling Paki Joe to focus on the state of his countrymen.
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
236
>>>VINOD-B’LORE INDIA: MFR-you have got me wrong buddy:

Reply: Hi Vinod, I fail to grasp exactly the thrust of your suggestions. However, I slipped into a bad mood yesterday when after I mentioned to some Hyderabadi and other Muslim colleagues that Taslima Nasrin survived a physical attack on her by Majlis legislators, they retorted that they (the MLAs) should not have done an incomplete job but fixed her up permanently.These goons rankle me no end, however, I somehow put up with them.

I am sorry if my post caused you distress but believe me, it was not really intended that way.

Now, about the approach, do note that presently it is not possible individually to come out in the open to launch a reform movement in the Muslims. In India and around, the condition of development of the secular society with its law and order state is not up to that level which can ensure the protection of Individuals who take on the beliefs of a numerous and united in bullying and coercion group like the Muslims. Tasleema is a case in point. Also, the nation is politically compromised to do much in that regard. Taking the Muslim goons and Jihadists on the streets and in the warzone at the international level respectively falls in the scope of the armed police and military, which is being pursued by the West at present
Therefore, as concerned individuals, we have to adapt our approach accordingly. The civilizational struggle against Islam is also a struggle of ideas, ethics and righteousness and hence, those who have a grasp of the debate and the issues involved can do their bit by highlighting the unethical, illiberal, intolerant, violent and irrationally intransigent behavior of the ideology in question. If pertinent points are raised which are backed by truth, the defenders of that ideology would have a tough time standing up to the scrutiny by the said well-informed parties. The moral and ethical cover of the ideology will be blown, forcing it to behave and mend its ways. As it is, with all the internet, print and electronic media conducting a critical appraisal of Islam, many sections of its mainstream have gone on defensive and accepted the need for moderation and modernization. Also, the power of letters can never be underestimated. It was no idle boast of Jinnah when he claimed that he had won Pakistan with the help of his Private Secretary and his typewriter.
I have also written earlier on the matter of the modus operandi and the process by which radical and far reaching reform may come to take place in the Muslims which you may refer. If I print again, you will say that I wasted forum space (just joking).

My quip to you to introspect and soul search were just a reaction to your earlier comments as I get bugged when lectured on what to do. I didn’t mean that for the Hindus in general of course. Even my father, who has been a dyed in the wool supporter of Jinnah and Muslim League and remains mostly uncharitable to the Hindus was compelled to acknowledge of their Burdbari(tolerance) and miyaana-ravi(moderation). I hold the Hindus in high regard, for their great humanist traditions, tolerance, sharing and caring for others, reforming themselves, adapting to the circumstance and concerning themselves mostly with secular concerns of day to day life. I am what I am due to the excellent system and traditions of the Indian state in which I grew up and lived . I wish all the best for my Bharatvaasis and Bharat-Mata. They will surely inherit the earth one day.
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
237
Reply to GF

>> My perception of this forum is not limited to the posters here…..In this forum you just add another anti-Islamic voice to a sea of anti-Islamic voices.

Reply- Because not many are siding with you and your brothers in faith after knowing of the mistaken notions and the rigid and intolerant views which you continue to hold and defend, I cannot throw my long standing and considered opinions to the wind and come-over to your side to balance the forces. In matters of ethics and propriety, one has to act according to his convictions on what he feels is correct, irrespective of on which side of the debate would he be branded. I don’t care if my posts work against one in favor of another in the least. I am here only to offer my sincere and considered opinion on the matters at hand.

>> Arabs just came into possession and flirted briefly with the Greek Philosophers’ works but did not appreciate it; …..I would think that al-Kindi, al-Farabi, Ibn Sina and Ibn Rushd undrstood, discussed and interpreted Greek philosophers, especially Aristotle, well. Greek thinking also contributed to the development of Arab medical practise. It is however easier to devalue a culture than to reaffirm it.

Reply: I don’t think you read my post properly, or is it that you deliberately show incomprehension? I don’t know. It is clearly mentioned that in period before advent of Islam and in the earlier centuries after it when the iron clad scriptures were not crystallized, Arabs were associated with the Greek Philosopher’s Works. Ibn Rushd and others were members of a group called Mutazalites. However, after the setting in of the Islam as we know it since centuries, these Mutazalites and their occupation with Greek philosophy was hounded out. Shunned and eradicated from Islamic sphere by Al Ghazali and his gang. If really there would have been a widespread appreciation of the Greek thinking among Arabs, they would have seen to it that the same were retained in their practice in some way. However, its complete absence at the present tells the tale which any amount of reaffirmation or devaluation would not affect in any way.

>> Some Hindus who do that do not matter ...It is more than "some Hindus who do not matter" when it comes to claiming that ancients had anticipated Einstein!

Reply: The some Hindus as I told you are EXCEPTIONS, whereas the Muslim crackpots attempting Islamic Science are the RULE, that is the difference.. in bold for u 2 understand

>> Few crackpots in Western science do that…..If there are crack-pot scientists in all societies, their existence would not prove the anti-scientific bent of any particular religion.

Reply: Same as above. Any occurrence as an exception does not prove or disprove a rule. But if the occurrence of foolishness and unscientificness is as widespread as observed in Muslims, it does say something
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 12, 2007 12:00 AM
238
Reply to GF

MFR,>> If Muslims had been responding to the circumstances (history and geopolitics), they would not be what they are but like the others, taken cue from it to rise up from the morass. …..Historical vicissitudes have produced slumps in other civilizations too; India and China are prime examples.

Reply: Not again. Pointing fingers at others to avoid looking at one’s own self. And this was precisely what you said earlier in disapproval. This is known as tafawat in Islamic parlance, discrepancy between statements and deeds!

>> the entire Koran is like a penal code where sins (as per its own definition) and undesirable actions are mentioned to receive punishment in the hereafter in Hell.
Read Deuteronomy or Manuvad. The bulk of the Quran is couched in 7th century allegories, idioms and figures of speech. The task is not excision, which would be impossible, but a patient and gradual reinterpretation. A liberal and humanistic dogma would be the desired result.

Reply: Again the same as above, pointing fingers always. Why don’t you understand that the Christians and Hindus have more or less given up the living of their lives by the ancient texts in good measure!! It is only Muslims who keep clinging to their old, irrational book, which is why it becomes necessary to point out its shortcomings, vileness and irrelevance so that they too may think of setting themselves free from its grip.

>> Samajhdaar ko ishaara kaafi hota hai…..A long list of negatives is not just an ishaara!

Reply: The long list of negatives is the symptoms/indications of the disease within. And the disease is Islam


>> like a mother monkey clings to its dead offspring….If it is dead, what are you reforming?

Reply: Again I want to ask you that are you really dumb or pretend to be deliberately. I will spell it out for you; The dead offspring is the Islamic ideology which has to be discarded (with due respect); The mother monkey is the Muslim community who is in dire need of this reform (of getting rid of its dogma-dead offspring) and we all here are brainstorming for achieving that end.

>> Ummah who are in dire need of course correction….You can help people correct their course only if you can talk to them. The way you have framed your message, you cannot talk to them or even reveal your identity.

Reply: The above statement is not correct. According to Hindu scholar Chanakya, there are 4 ways of course correction- Saama (Made to understand), Dama (Buying out), Dand (Punitive measures) and Bhed (By guile and deception). Saama means by preaching, lecturing, which is what I am doing here. They say in any debate, it does not matter who is the one who is saying; It is only what is being said that is important. My identity and my talking does not mean anything, the issues raised by me are that what is significant.
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
239
Reply to Jash

Jash>>>He has earned my utmost respect and admiration though I disagree with him on a few matters of analysis like blaming the parivar for inciting muslims.

Reply: Thanks for appreciating. WRT blaming Sangh Parivar, please note that I was enumerating comprehensively all causes possible which are responsible for increased Muslim communalism and segregation. In that regard, however small that effect might be, it is unfair to exclude this factor from the said list. Communalism after all is a issue between the two communities and is natural to have some reciprocal effect.

Also, WRT my comment to Vinod, I have cleared the matter in my reply to him which please note.
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
240
What can not be cured, must, Mr. Ganpat Ram, be endured. Islam and Muslims are unlikely to disappear from this Forum or elsewhere because you wish them away with varied levels of hate and bigotry in every one of your observations.

As a self-confessed Agnostic and who is, I believe married to baptised Christian, it is indeed confusing why you espouse the Hindu cause with such vehemence.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
241
Seshadri,

You write : Gulam:>>"Hindus justifying Gujarat massacre of Muslims. So, are the Hindus a group of blood-thirsty terrorists?"

You are attributing to me a question that was in fact asked by some one else. My answer was that Hindus inhabiting online forums are not truly representative of Hindus in general.

Was that an honest error on your part, or were you trying to misrepresent me?

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
242
Reply to GF

GF>> MFR >> TJ will make a cult out of our religion.

A decentralized religion spread over 50 countries with hundreds of different groups with their own interpretations of theology is not a cult.

Reply: I am tired of giving you long and explicit replies. I don’t deserve to suffer with you in this way. Therefore I will reply to this as follows:

Whenever the CULTURE of any people diminishes (as in case of Muslims) then it is abbreviated to CULT… Therefore the Muslims are a CULT with less CULTURE and only full of bearded VULTURES presiding over the dead and the decaying.

Bye!!!!
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
243
Reply to ADARSH ALI VIDHYARTI>> No sensible Muslim reformer can make such a negative , Islamophobic statement


Reply : Vidyarthi… U are a Vidyarthi who can only fail in each class. I know that you reached upto here by cheating in the Exams. No wonder you never graduated.. just remained a bloody Vidyarthi.. Time for you to grow up.. Do it fast.
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
244
MFR,

>> note that presently it is not possible individually to come out in the open to launch a reform movement in the Muslims.

So all you can do now is to trash and vilify Islam to curry favor with the Hindus? Did you notice that you have become a hero with the worst of the bigots in this forum e.g. Ganpat/Bagai and Jash/TarunGhosh? Instead of saying that Muslims are not ready for reform, why don't you think about what is it possible to do at this time? Even tiny baby steps are better than cynicism and nihilism. Granted that Muslims are rigid, but your kind of blasphemy will make them even more rigid. By assuming an apostate stance, and concealing your identity, you may become a darling of the Muslim haters, but you are not doing anything at all for reforms.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
245
When did you give me this piece of advice, MUSLIM FOR REFORM?. The state of my country and my country men and women is sufficiently covered by Outlook India. My role here is to remove disinformation and misinformation about Bangladesh and Pakistan in particular, and to highlight those analyses that show the true mirror to India such as the fact that 880 million Indians earn less than India Rupees Forty per day and so on.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
246
MFR,

>> Think this is the arrangement between GF and Paki Joseph.You scratch my back, I scratch yours.

Do you know of any instances where Joseph and I have interacted, or are you just in the habit of talking through your hat? Your Persian anecdote is dishonest as well as in bad taste.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
247
Have you heard of Professor (Dr.) Naseem Rahman, Chair of Theoretical Chemistry, University of Trieste, Italy, Mr. Prakash?.

Check him out?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
248
My Ancestors converted from Hinduism to Christianity, Mr. A. K. Ghai. I am, therefore, a Follower of The Book and can not be described as a Kafir.

I am under no Socio-Economic pressure to convert to Islam unlike the Millions of Sudras in India.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
249
Sure, I have heard of Prof Naseem Rahman. Question is, how many people are there who are encouraged to go to the top. Please take a look at the biography of Abdus Salam. He wanted to create a research institute in Punjab University in Pakistan but gave up. How many people from Pakistan make it to the top in Science? Out here, I see Stanford having so many Indian professors. The areas are so advanced nowadays that one cannot succeed without sufficient encouragement from all quarters. George Sudarshan made it to the top in Physics and was in India when he had done some of his best work. How many people can claim this in Pakistan? I agree that India also has a problem, largely due to lack of funds for research. However, there are not many religious reasons for lack of encouragement in science. I personally feel that a lot of Indians are staying away from science and have moved to IT as it pays more. This is a tragedy as they are not going to areas of work as a calling, but for monetary reasons. I am hoping that as India gets richer, people will spend time in areas that are a passion and not because they are forced into areas by family, friends, society etc. People like Ramanujan where caught up in their passion so much that they failed in other areas of study. Take a look of the work by Grisha Perelman who proved the Thurston Conjecture and got the Fields medal in 2006.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
250
MFR,

>> I cannot throw my long standing and considered opinions to the wind and come-over to your side to balance the forces.

I don't want you to. All I said was that just one more anti-Muslim ranter in this forum is not an earth shaking event.

>> when the iron clad scriptures were not crystallized.

Translated as, "before rigid mullahism took over".

>> after the setting in of the Islam as we know it.

Translated as, "after the rigid mullahs hijacked Islam".

>> some Hindus as I told you are EXCEPTIONS, whereas the Muslim crackpots attempting Islamic Science are the RULE.

Just your assessment. It has to be judged in light of your known anti-Muslim venomousness.

>> Pointing fingers at others to avoid looking at one’s own self.

To say that Muslims, Hindus and Chinese have suffered ups and downs in their history is not "pointing fingers". Your statement is a cheap shot.

>> Why don’t you understand that the Christians and Hindus have more or less given up the living of their lives by the ancient texts in good measure.

Just 300 years ago that was not so. They have been able to retain what was best in their ethos, and set aside the rest. The good news is that it is possible to do so. Use it as an example rather than as a taunt.

>> And the disease is Islam.

Is that an example of an ishaara?

>> The dead offspring is the Islamic ideology which has to be discarded (with due respect);

You could have said that we should excise Islamofascistic ideology from Islam. But your gobbledegook is designed to be ambiguous and obfuscating.

>> Saama means by preaching, lecturing, which is what I am doing here.

HoW can you preach to those whom you alienate? You may be preaching to the Ganpat/Bagais and the Jash/TarunGhoshes here, but they do not need any lessons in how to tear down Islam. They are already as full of bullshit as you are yourself!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
251
MFR,

>> Whenever the CULTURE of any people diminishes (as in case of Muslims) then it is abbreviated to CULT.

You invent definitions of words too? Why don't you write your own dictionary?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
252
Just for the record, Mr. Prakash, Naseem and me were neighbours and together at School, College and University from we both obtained Masters in Theoretical Physics with our Thesis' vetted by Professor (Dr.) Abdul Salam. Naseem moved to Trieste and me to the Research Centre in Lahore. He carried on whereas I moved in to the Corporate Sector after pursuing Business Studies.

We meet from time to time to share a beer, classical music and nostalgia and have similar tastes except for Golf, which is not my cup of tea.

Are you in to Theoretical Physics too?. If so, would you know where Nripendra, Syed Ghulam Mustafa and A. B. M. Ghulam Mustafa are?.

We were a Batch of Eight in Theoretical Physics. I believe the three above and Naseem continued. Shafi Sami and me became Civil Servants with Shafi retiring as Foreign Secretary of Bangladesh. I can not recall the names of the other two.

Would you know Dr. Abdul Latif Choudhury, our mentor, who now lives near Kitty Hawk?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
253
Although my Calculus is all but dead, Mr. Prakash, I shall look these Worthy Gentlemen and their works.

I am sorry about that bit of self-advertisement. I got a bit carried away and nostalgic, and was keen to know where the rest of the "Batch Of Eight" were.

Good Luck to you in your Endeavours.

As for Salam and his fate in his later years, blame that on Mr. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and the 'blind faith' of some of our leading lights.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
254
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> A Danish priest politician has called Islam as
pest over Europe.

Many mullahs have said a lot of worse things for many other religions. If you are interested in such smut, I can post it here.

>> Many of us have expressed our low opinion of Islam and many of the its followers.

Low people have low opinions.

>> You (MFR) have also supported many of us posters who have been frustrated by GF. His ability to confuse matters, by a series of insults, denials
and distortions.

Does not take much to frustrate and confuse nitwits like you.

>> I am revolted by these people.

Just as I am revolted by you.

>> The archetyical muslim with
beady eyes, beard, skull cap and frothing at the mouth.

Rabid bigotry in its purest form!

>> Muslims really faithful to Islam should even now move to Pakistan.

The old clarion call of this apartheidist bigot!

>> My belief is that there is nearly a unexplanable hatred between muslims and Hindus in India.

Your belief!!! Just look in your own heart. Most Hindus and Muslims are not as hateful as you are.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
255
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> These are the views of the Pope, earlier a professor in theology.

If you are so fond of this Pope and take his words so seriously, do you also support his criticism last year of the attempts of some Indian states to slow down conversions. Here is the news item :

"Pope Benedict condemned Hindu nationalist attempts to ban religious conversions in India in a speech on Thursday reflecting growing tension among major faiths about the role and nature of missionary work. In unusually strong language, the Pontiff told New Delhi's new ambassador to the Vatican that efforts in some states to outlaw conversions were unconstitutional and should be rejected."

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
256
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> "We are well educated, and savy folk."

Thanks for making me laugh.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
257
Islam and science are contradictory term. I do not know any muslim scietist of the caliber of Newton, Galileo, Einstein, and Heisenberg etc.
For the purpose of definition some muslims can fall the under the definition of scientists but truely speaking they are never scientists.
I have many muslim friends who are very highly educated from abroad but they still believe that everthing in the world is due to Allah.
Islam is bottlenect to cross barrier of our space-time which is essential to understand the functioning of our universe. A muslim can dedicate his lifetime only for islam and not for fundamental science.
Miss Chitra
Mangalore, India
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
258
Miss Chitra/Jash,

>> For the purpose of definition some muslims can fall the under the definition of scientists but truely speaking they are never scientists.
I have many muslim friends who are very highly educated from abroad but they still believe that everthing in the world is due to Allah.

Only an idiot would think that science and faith are mutually exclusive.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
259
MFR to Adarsh Ali,

>> U are a Vidyarthi who can only fail in each class.

First you tried to make fun of my name ("slave"), now you are doing the same to Vidyarthi. Making fun of people's names is the lowest form of humor. And you do it while hiding your own name! This together with your taunts to Joseph (which you later tried to water down because you were criticized) make me wonder about your true integrity.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
260
Ali, Priests in Hindus have very little say compared to Mullahs. Imagine Hindu priests sitting with Reagan in White House, instead of the ones shown in the famous photgraphs to make the Soviet Union collapse. The Mullahs are powerful and how they became so powerful after the decline of intellect in 12th century is what you must address. Intially it was the blind warrior class ( with a very few exceptions) for centuries and then it is the mullahs. Now if you see Pakistan and Afghanistan it is the similar layer of warriors ( military) and mullahs holding power, with the people caught between. So a massive reform is required to keep M&M away from power. If both Ali and Ghulam have the moral courage of Gandhi, they could be beacon of hope in leading the masses out of the clutches of Mi & Mu. Just throwing barbs and homilies will not do.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
261
Jash/Chitra,

>> U are free to go to ARABIA.JIHADI GANDU/NEHRU have already gifted 1/3 land to jihad in 1947 and are responsible for 1/2 m deaths and hindu genocide. GANDHI IS THE FATHER OF THE NATION.THE NATION OF PAKISTAN AND UMMAH.
>> Go disappear in a toilet,u evil anal specimen emanating slime and filth.Leave the civilized word alone.Even vermin are less harmful than traitor/fraud islamists like u.

Seems your medication is not working. Make an appointment to see your doctor immediately.

>> Modi was a BJP office bearer for years in charge of Gujarat and had a friendly BJP govt and parivar there. He could have started killing muslims without cause.

And ask you doctor to give you something stronger.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
262
Jash/Chitra,

>> THIS EXCERPT FROM MFR IN RESPONSE.

Just like you to omit my answers to MFR's stupid comments. Deception and lying are your forte!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
263
Jash/Chitra,

>> mfr Reply to the evil GF : Not again. Pointing fingers at others to avoid looking at one’s own self.

Again, just like you to omit my answers to MFR's stupid comments. You think people can't read MFR's posted comments, so you have to re-post them? How stupid can you get?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
264
Jash/Chitra.

>> GF //Only an idiot would think that science and faith are mutually exclusive.

>> J/C //Several examples show they are.

Your examples are totally inappropriate and inane.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
265
Jash/Chitra,

>> has zero tolerance for independent and intelligent analysis.

Neither you nor your hero MFR would know intelligent analysis if it bit you on your asses.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
266
Pervez Hoodbhoy is chair and professor in the department of physics at Quaid-i-Azam University in Islamabad, Pakistan for 34 years.
I am really feeling sorry about his knowledgebase on science. He is ridiculing Hindu God Lord Ganesh's drinking milk episode and praising Koran that most of the things in the universe were mentioned in the Koran.
We should note that Islam was born in 7th century. I have seen drinking of milk by Ganesh's idol with my own eyes and there is nothing to do with VHP or RSS or Bajarang Dal. Indian and Pakistani muslims are same because they are relatives and used to live in one country just 60 years ago. Partition will not change the mentallity of Musalmaans.
Now let me teach this musalmaan professor some science. Albert Einstein's theory suggest that Universe came into being almost 15 billion years ago out of the Big Bang. The symmetry of the Universe was broken and other higher dimensions vanished during early childhood of the Universe. We now live in 3 dimensional world and finds most of the miracles without explanation. We do need Koran to explain the miracles but we need brain. Unfortunately, Muslims are brainshed by Koran. Abdus Salam did not get prize alone but shared with 2 American scientists in 1979. It was cold war politics and muslims were having blessings of Europe and America. The prize should have gone to a Hindu scientist who taught particle physics to Adbus Salaam when he was in India.
Miss Chitra
Mangalore, India
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
267
GOONGA PARBAT ;

Hindus converted under threat of life by Muslims .They converted in past and are still converting to Bhudisim due to ill treatment by the so called UNCHI JATIWALA.

I DOUBT ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD SUCH A CLASS PERSECUTION EXISTS EXCEPT IN HINDU SOCIETY.

2 ""I am, therefore, a Follower of The Book and can not be described as a Kafir.""

CHACHA JOE : This illusion of follower of the Bible and hence not not KAFIR does not hold ant weight now .As far as Muslims are concerned Christians are their worst enemies .

POPE HAS CONFIRMED THE SAME BY ALLUDING TO WAR OF CULTURES.You don't agree with your own Pope does not change the reality.

EITHER CONVERT OR MIGRATE TO CANADA OTHERWISE -GOD FORBID ---!
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
268
GF, Tabs, Goongaparbat,…..

It seems our man GF talks through many heads…Reminds me of a many headed monster.

Like Ravana (Dashanan), with his ten heads.
We heard that the deceiving and misleading guys resorted to doublespeak, now we have to contend with multiplespeak.

But anyways, we all know the end; even with his ten heads, Ravana wasn’t able to save himself and his false pride and premise from the righteous Ram.
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
269
MFR,

>> It seems our man GF talks through many heads…

As in most things, you are dead wrong in this also.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
270
Good Afternoon, Mr. Ganpat Ram and Everone else too.

If the Pope was one hundred per cent sure of the veracity of his quote, he should have stated it. He relented because, he was not sure. Turkey was the excuse.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
271
Muslims do, Mr. Ganpat Ram especially in Bangladesh.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
272
Some home truths, Mr. Ganpat Ram, are well in order for you.

a. Respect is a two-way street.
b. Respect begets respect.
c. One can not command or demand respect.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
273
Are there any Hindu scientists of the calibre of those Luminaries you cited, Miss. Chitra?.

I doubt it.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
274



Standing on the Shoulders of Giants 34. Joseph Lister 68. Julius Ceasar 35. Sigmund Freud 69. William the Conqueror
1.Socrates 36. Marie Curie 79. Genghis Khan
2. Plato 37. Albert Einstein 71. Napoleon Bonaparte
3. Aristotle 38. Alexander Fleming 72. Robert E. Lee
4. Francis Bacon 39. Jonas Salk 73. Dwight D. Eisenhower
5. Rene Descartes
6. John Locke 40. Sophocles 74. Constantine the Great
7. Voltaire 41. Virgil 75. Charlemagne
8. Jean Jacques Rousseau 42. Dante Alighieri 76. Queen Elizabeth I
9. Adam Smith 43. Geoffrey Chaucer 77. Oliver Cromwell
10. Immanuel Kant 44. William Shakespeare 78. Benjamin Franklin
11. Karl Marx 45. John Milton 79. Catherine the Great
12. Friedrich Nietzsche 46. Charles dickens 80. George Washington 47. George Eliot 81.Thomas Jefferson
13. Marco Polo 48. Leo Tolstoy 82. Abraham Lincoln
14. Christopher Columbus 49. Emily Dickinson 83. Susan B. Anthony
15. Vasco da Gama 50. Mark Twain 84. Mahatma Gandhi
16. Ferdinand Magellan 85. Winston Churchill
17. James Cook 51. Johann Sebastian Bach 86. Franklin D. Roosevelt
18. Roald Amundsen 52. George Frideric Handel
87. Martin Luther King 53. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
19. Archimedes 54. Ludwig van Beethoven 88. Abraham
20. Johann Gutenberg 55. Frederic Chopin 89. Moses
21. Eli Whitney 56. Richard Wagner 90. Lao Tzu
22. Thomas Edison 57. Johannes Brahms 91. Buddha
23. Alexander Graham Bell 58. Peter Tchaikovsky 92. Confucius
24. Henry Ford 59. Claude Debussy 93. Jesus Christ
25. The Wright Brothers 94. The Apostle Paul
26. Guglielmo Marconi 60. Leonardo da Vinci 95. Saint Augustine
61. Raphael 96. Muhammad
27. Galen 62. Michelangelo 97. Thomas Aquinas
28. Nicolaus Copernicus 63. Rembrandt 98. Martin Luther
29. Galileo 64. Claude Monet 99. John Calvin
30. Issac Newton 65.Vincent van Gogh 100. Joseph Smith
31. Charles Darwin 66. Pablo Picasso
32. Louis Pasteur

33. Gregor Mendel 67. Alexander the Great

----------------------------------------------
---
The list got motled and mangled in the Cutting And Pasting, Miss. Chitra. Your are likely to find just one Hindu and one Muslim in the Top Hundred Personalities Of All Time. Let us not forget our sense of proportion when criticing each other.













Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
275

-------------------------------------------------BR>Go disappear in a toilet,u evil anal specimen emanating slime and filth.Leave the civilized word alone.Even vermin are less harmful than traitor/fraud islamists like u.
Go to PAKI joe who is waiting with open arms and sniff each others jihadi rear ends and achieve your jihadi
orgasms
---------------------------------------
----------
It is indeed sad, JASH, that your mind can produce such filth. It is a shame on family, your educational institutions, your employer, your Synagogue, Temple, Church, Mosque or Gurdwara as the case may be. As a matter of fact you are a shame on all humankind.

Why can you not make your points through good clean debate and asiduous research rather than surfing your mind for the choicest filth in the world. Shame.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
276
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> the mullahs and Ayatollahs in this forum.

The only ones that I know in this forum are the mullahs and ayatollahs of hate, like yourself and Jash/Chitra. Seems MFR is trying to join your ranks too.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
277
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> I would frankly prefer intelligent foreign members then some of the mullahs, who speak with
a forked tongue, are decietful and have a single agenda. Part time Indians.

Describes you admirably. The hateful mullah with a single agenda!!!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
278
Jash/Chitra,

>> my words indicate the language that only disgusting slime like and FARUKI understand.

Your words prove your gutter origins, nothing else.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
279
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Follow the commands of the prophet and leave us kaffirs alone. Leave this forum as a first step.

This is the message from this hate merchant from Denmark. This is his fifth hate message since he got up this morning. There are many more to come before he goes back to his drunk sleep.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
280
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> I am so tired of this wretched mullah, and would welcome it if some one would take him by the scruff and chuck him into a horse trough.

Sixth hate message of the day from this Danish hate merchant.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
281
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Politely I ask you to disapear.
Your prophet would not like you to write in this forum, where you provoke Hindu bigots to abuse
him. Do it for the sake of the prophet.

Seventh hate message of the day from this Danish hate merchant.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
282
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> I can agree with the Pope on one thing and disagree with him on the other.

Since your wife and daughters are Roman Catholics, I will not say anything more about this Pope. He slipped once but was intelligent enough to correct course. My favorite Pope still is John Paul II.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
283
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> However I think you should find your laughs elsewhere. Since Islam is so wonderful, why dont you hang out with muslim forums, and impart your wisdom to them.

Hate message number 8 for the day from this Danish hate monger.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 13, 2007 12:00 AM
284
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> You commented yourself of the hatred
between muslims and Hindus in Gujerat.

This shows how you would lie and deceive in order to spread your hatred. I had clearly said that Gujarati Hindus are decent people and the BJP sponsored hate is only a temporary phenomenon. You would distort and misquote in the service of your mean-spirited agenda.

>> And muslims are disliked everywhere. You know it, and have admitted it. We are not nitwits,. We are far superior to you in every way.

Today's hate message number 9 from this Danish hate monger.

>> Can you explain why you are on this forum, where you are universally despised.? There are people who are spat at and keep up with their ape like impudence. You fit this bill.

Hate message number 10.

>> I think Islam is an evil cult, compareable to Mein Kampf. Its full of lists of donts.

Hate message nuber 11.

>> I think we will need force to change the muslims.

Hate message number 12.

>> No one wants you around in your present state of underdevoplment Why in gods name as a true muslim do you want to live in nonmuslims societies. Some may tolerate you, but most do not, and a significant minority hates you.

This is hate message number 13 for today from this Danish hate merchant.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 14, 2007 12:00 AM
285
In ancient India , the sadhus used to roam here and there for truth going thru vast tracks of land. One day , one young sadhu decided to sit in one place and look inwards and all round his side locally. He found peace and solace and then could bring prosperity to his local community by realising all right and wrongs are in his place. This was he had discovered himself , his community and rectified the disease, instead of roaming around searching for symptoms like the other sadhus.

Some of comments looks like many have not read the article by Uri Avenry in this issue of Outlook. They have been roaming around aimlessly. The article has hit the nail on the head.

Will it be called welfarewarnomics by Amartya Sen. Surely I am not joking Mr Sen. Another Nobel must be in line for you.

Nussbaum , how about looking at locally like the sadhu who found peace , when he looked at his own land and helped them with his wisdom.

Why one book , Memsahib , you can write infinite number of volumes and shame even Shakeshpeare and take Dickens out of Charles.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Aug 14, 2007 12:00 AM
286
Jash/Chitra,

>> I speak to people in the language they understand.

You speak the language of the gutter where you come from. There is nothing there to understand. It is all hate and no substance.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 14, 2007 12:00 AM
287
i agree with Ganpat.
Miss Chitra
Mangalore, India
Aug 14, 2007 12:00 AM
288
Jash/Chitra,

>> So much so that he becomes a member of ARAB TERROR SPONSOR CAIR works agaisnt India.

This just shows your stupidity. I support CAIR because it is a very active and effective lobby for American Muslims. I do not go to them to learn any dogmas or doctrines from them. I do not have time or any interest to research their history. If they have any terrorist connections, the FBI will take care of it.

By the way, supporting Hamas and Hazbullah was a very common thing among American Muslim Charities prior to in 9/11, and CAIR was not an exception.

What amused me a lot is how you and another noodlehead in this forum got to work digging dirt on CAIR as soon as I mentioned that organization here. Makes me laugh every time I see your CAIR "bulletins"!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 14, 2007 12:00 AM
289
Albert Einstein has said in 1952 that "the distinction between past, present, and future is an illusion". His friend died in 1952 and he got disturbed because of this. He saw universe in 4 dimensional space-time as some kind of space like entity in which one can move back and forth provided he is able to penetrate 4th dimension. As we are living in an universe whose symmetry was broken during childhood of the universe it is difficult to visualise why universe came into being by common man.
It is extremely difficult to produce scientist of the calibre of Einstein in any muslim country.
Richard Fynmann once said if you can't create you don't understand. Science was never born in Islamic countries and that is why they would never understand it. Kurt Godel proved mathematically that we are living in an imperfect world or system which will create hurdle in the perfection or ideal things.
If BJP or RSS come to the power i will propose to make a documentary movie where i would try to explain the nature/secret of space-time. As the current indian government is an islamic government i doubt they will support any such kind of initiative.
Miss Chitra
Mangalore, India
Aug 14, 2007 12:00 AM
290
I root for truth JASH. Please go through all my Cuts And Pastes and decide for yourself which way the Wind Blows.

In the Spirit Of Independence, I shall refrain from reacting to the choice adjectives you are wont to use.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 14, 2007 12:00 AM
291
I am no India-hater, JASH. I portray and present a South Asia that is. A South Asia of which India an integral part. When I speak about India's Castes. I speak about Reality. When I speak about 880 Million poor Indians, I reflect the Truth. When I speak about Friendship within South Asia. I speak for the Majority.

These are not the Manifestations of an India-Hater.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Aug 14, 2007 12:00 AM
292
Jash/Chitra,

>> That FARUKI does not have time to do research about an organization (CAIR).

I shall leave the research to the goons who love to dig dirt. My interest is in helping an organization which is so active, and often so successful, in helping American Muslims when they need help, and I shall of course continue to do so. Please continue to entertain me with your stupid remarks about CAIR.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 14, 2007 12:00 AM
293
"I am no India-hater, JASH. I portray and present a South Asia that is. A South Asia of which India an integral part. When I speak about India's Castes. I speak about Reality. When I speak about 880 Million poor Indians, I reflect the Truth. When I speak about Friendship within South Asia. I speak for the Majority. These are not the Manifestations of an India-Hater."

Joseph, everyone this forum believes they are educated, hence literate, hence articulate and HENCE MOST IMPORTANTLY RIGHT (even though OPINIONARED). So do you.

Rubbing it in .... doesn't seem like the recipe for for "friendship" you would want to proclaim. Or, constantly saying India is "big ugly brother" and the reason for lack of friendship doesn't seem like the way to build friendship.

For a change why worry about the "castes" or the "close to billion poor", or the "roads" .... there are 1.1b and counting people worrying about it. Why not for a change worry about "around yourself" .... "think local, act local and you will become global"?

The first and only rule for improving "interpersonal relationship" (hence move to friendship) is by looking at self and saying what do I need to do NOT creating a catch-22 of I will change if you do.

Like I said the South Asia neighborhood shouldn't be a priority for any of us right now. It's time will come and hopefully by then there will be more maturity and interdependencies that make us behave till then we can just live knowing MAD (Mututally Assured Destruction) is operational.
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Aug 14, 2007 12:00 AM
294
Gulam: You say I have misquoted you. I tried to verify, but the thread has become too long to read. Anyway, sorry, if I have; I only copied out; unfortunately the comments on articles are in reverse order, carrying no reference number, only date and time, too long to quote. In freespeech threads, they are in sequence and numbered for reference. Anyway, please be assured I have no interest in misrepresenting you or anyone else..
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 14, 2007 12:00 AM
295
Jash/Chitra,

>> AN ORG (CAIR) WHICH IS SO ACTIVE in sponsoring and funding terrorrism worldwide.

Any idiot living in USA would know that with the massive FBI watch and fine tooth-combing of all Islamic outfits, including the flow of money, any terrorist connections would have closed the CAIR shop long ago. Any outfit sending funds to organizations listed in FBI's terrorism list could not survive. If CAIR is doing any hanky-panky, they will pay dearly for it. A couple of comedians trying to outsmart the FBI are good for laughs, if for nothing else.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 14, 2007 12:00 AM
296
Jash/Chitra,

>> You do not eevn meet the definition of a rodent. Go and lecture the MIM mlas and their jihadi voters.

While those who attacked Tasleema deserve full condemnation, your posts here are convincing evidence that your mindset is no different from theirs.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 14, 2007 12:00 AM
297
Jash/Chitra,

>> Former CAIR Member Pleads Guilty to Terrorism Charges. By Andrew L. Jaffee.

Notorious zionist bloggers being quoted by the worst of the bigots in this forum! Most Muslim activist groups in the USA will have elements of Palestinians, Kashmiris, Chechnyans and Bosnians, but if they cross the line they get prosecuted, just as some members are being prosecuted now. I support CAIR for the good work they do for American Muslims.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 14, 2007 12:00 AM
298
Arun,

>> South Asia neighborhood shouldn't be a priority for any of us right now. It's time will come and hopefully by then there will be more maturity and interdependencies that make us behave.

I feel the same way. If and when Pakistan and Bangladesh eradicate talibanism and veer toward a secular outlook, and if and when secularism ceases to be mocked and abused in India and Muslms are better integrated, the impulse to closeness in the subcontinental neighborhood will emerge spontaneously.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 14, 2007 12:00 AM
299
Gulam: You are right. I have mistaken your quotation from TABS' posting as a posting made by you; sorry. If you can influence the OL editors to organize Rants & Raves on lines similar to FREESPEECH, it will be more convenient to read, understand and reply with appropriate references, without mistakes. Anyway, OL is organized much better than other journals on the web.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 14, 2007 12:00 AM
300
Seshadri,

>> Gulam: You are right. I have mistaken your quotation from TABS' posting as a posting made by you; sorry.

Spoken like a gentleman!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 15, 2007 12:00 AM
301
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Contempt and disgust are the feelings that I have for you. And for most of your kind.

Today's hate message number 7 from our resident bigot.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 15, 2007 12:00 AM
302
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> We can not find a spot where the momo's and the jehadi's do not appear. Now its this forum.
All sorts of Taslimuddins and Sohrabuddins, Dawood Ibrahims will soon be giveing us their views. The intelliegence level of the muslims is the lowest anywhere.

Today's hate message number 8 from this hate merchant!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 15, 2007 12:00 AM
303
Jash/Chitra,

>> I have the mindset of a pestcontroller who wants to defend his house against vermin or a swarm of bees.

You are a pest, not a pest controller.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 15, 2007 12:00 AM
304
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Read any paper and its negative for muslims.

A lie, and hate mesaage number 7 for today.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Aug 15, 2007 12:00 AM
305
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> About 40 to 50 % muslims are
unemployed. Its a question of basic honesty.
How can you be so proud of your religion.

Talk to your MP about Muslim unemploymnet.

Hate message number 8 from this idle bigot!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 13, 2008 12:00 AM
306
Caste in Indian Muslim Society

Professor Yoginder Singh Sikand,

Head
Centre for Studies on Indian Muslims,

Hamdard University, New Delhi


http://stateless.freeho...%20Muslim%20Society.htm


a k ghai
mumbai, India
May 13, 2008 12:00 AM
307
Here are the two main differences.
------
Although the Qur'an insists on the radical equality of all Muslims, caste (zat, jati, biraderi) remains a defining feature of Indian Muslim society, with significant regional variations.

In Islam, Caste is not mandated by the Religion. It has been induced by the Social Environment.
------
While the severity of caste among the Indian Muslims is hardly as acute as among the Hindus, with the practice of untouchability being virtually absent, caste and associated notions of caste-based superiority and inferiority still do play an important role in Indian Muslim society.

Untouchability is absent.



Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
May 13, 2008 12:00 AM
308
Vinod,

>> Our expert on Islamic issues Mr.Ghulam faruki used to say there is no casteism in Islam and hence there is equality.

You are a liar and an idiot. You invent stories about what I said or did not say. You are truly the lowest of the low.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
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