India And Europe
What Can India Offer?
The Indians know what they have to learn from Europe and they have been learning it for centuries on end. Europe, by contrast, rests content with descriptions of India as superstitious, corrupt, and underdeveloped. Or with woolly notions about meditation, yoga, karma, vedic astrology...
Today, India has become a global player of significant political and economical impact. Europe and India are facing each other as equal partners in pursuit of greater economic and political co-operation. This confronts both India and Europe with a challenge. The intelligentsia, the business world, politicians, educators and others, will have to answer the following question: What can India offer to the world of today and tomorrow? 

I will not tackle this problem directly but instead take up one of its sub-questions: to whom is this problem important and why? I believe it is important to both Indians and Europeans but for different reasons. In this article, I will spell out and reflect upon some of these reasons. 

For the first time in the last four to five hundred years, non-white and non-Christian cultures will have a significant impact on the affairs of the humankind. Here, India will play an important role. As a result, the need to explicate what it means to be an Indian (and what the 'Indianness' of the Indian culture consists of) will soon become the task of the entire intelligentsia in India. In this process, they will confront the challenge of responding to what Europe has so far thought and written about India. A response is required because the theoretical and textual study of the Indian culture has been undertaken mostly by Europe in the last three hundred years. What is more, it will also be a challenge because the study of India has largely occurred within the cultural framework of Europe. 

In fulfilling this task, the Indian intelligentsia of tomorrow will have to solve a puzzle: what were the earlier generations of Indian thinkers busy with, in the course of the last two to three thousand years? Let me use a contrast with the European culture to exhibit the nature of this puzzle and its importance to the theme of this article. 


What were the European intellectuals busy with, during the last two thousand years? It is almost impossible to answer this question without describing the history of Europe. Still, we can say they produced theologies, philosophies, fine arts, natural and social sciences … The list is so varied, so diverse and so huge that one does not know where to begin or how to end. Despite this, the fact remains: all interesting theories about human beings, their cultures and societies, which we use today, are products of the European intellectuals. So too are the institutions and practices that most of us find desirable: democratic institutions and courts of law, for instance. The sheer size, variety and the quality of the European contributions to humanity is overwhelming. 

What were the Indian thinkers doing during the same period? The standard textbook story, which has schooled multiple generations including mine, goes as follows: caste system dominates India, women are discriminated against, the practice of widow-burning exists, corruption is rampant, most people believe in astrology, karma and reincarnation … If these properties characterize India of today and yesterday, the puzzle about what the earlier generations of Indian thinkers were doing turns into a very painful realization: when the intellectuals of one culture, the European culture, were busy challenging and changing the world, most thinkers from another culture, the Indian in our case, were apparently busy sustaining and defending undesirable and immoral practices. Of course there is our Buddha and our Gandhi but that is apparently all we have: exactly one Buddha and exactly one Gandhi. If this portrayal is true, the Indians have but one task - to modernize India - and the Indian culture but one goal - to become like the West as quickly as possible. 

However, what if this portrayal is false? What if these basically European descriptions of India are wrong? In that case, the questions about what India has to offer the world and what the Indian thinkers were doing become important to the Europeans. For the first time, their knowledge of India will be subject to a kind of test that has never occurred before. Why 'for the first time'? The answer is obvious: the knowledge of India was generated primarily when India was colonized. Subsequent to the Indian independence, India suffered from poverty and backwardness. In tomorrow's world, the Indian intellectuals will be able to speak back with a newly found confidence and they will challenge the European descriptions of India. That is, for the first time, they will test the European knowledge of India and not just accept it as God's own truth. Moreover, the results of this test are not of mere scientific interest; they will also have serious social, political and economic repercussions on the European societies. If true, the question becomes: what kind of 'knowledge' about India will be tested? 

As an example, consider one of the things that Europe 'knows' about India: the Indian caste system. Almost everyone I know has very firm moral opinions on the subject. Many see in it the origin of all kinds of evils in India: from the denial of human rights to oppression; some see in it obstacles to progress and modernization and so on. I suppose we agree that we need to understand a phenomenon before making moral judgments. With this in mind, if you try and find out what this famous caste system is, and why people either attack or defend it, you discover the following: no ancient book exists that tells us what the principles of the caste system are; no Indian can tell you about its structure or its organization; no scientific theory has been developed that explains how or why it continues to exist. Simply put, nobody understands what it is or how it functions. In that case, how can anyone be pro or contra the caste system? If we focus on how people normally describe this system and understand how easy it is to turn such a description upside down, the absurdity of the situation becomes obvious. While emphasizing that I do not attack and much less defend the caste system in what follows, let us look at the existing descriptions and their consequences. 

(a) Caste is an antiquated social system that arose in the dim past of India. If this is true, it has survived many challenges - the onslaught of Buddhism and the Bhakti movements, the Islamic and British colonization, Indian independence, world capitalism - and might even survive 'globalization'. It follows, then, that the caste system is a very stable social organization. 

(b) There exists no centralized authority to enforce the caste system across the length and breadth of India. In that case, it is an autonomous and decentralized organization. 

(c) All kinds of social and political regulations, whether by the British or by the Indians, have not been able to eradicate this system. If true, it means that the caste system is a self-reproducing social structure. 

(d) Caste system exists among the Hindus, the Sikhs, the Jains, the Christians, the Muslims… It has also existed under different environments. This means that this system adapts itself to the environments it finds itself in.  

(e) Because new castes have come and gone over the centuries, this system must also be dynamic. 

(f) Since caste system is present in different political organizations and survives under different political regimes, it is also neutral with respect to political ideologies. 

Even though more can be said, this is enough for us. A simple redescription of what we think we know about the caste system tells us that it is an autonomous, decentralized, stable, adaptive, dynamic, self-reproducing social organization. It is also neutral with respect to political, religious and economic doctrines and environments. If indeed such a system ever existed, would it also not have been the most ideal form of social organization one could ever think of? 

How can we try to understand this odd state of affairs? The question of the immorality of the caste system became immensely important after the British came to India. Consequently, there are two interesting possibilities to choose from: one, Indians did not criticize the caste system (before the British came to India) because Indians are immoral; two, the Europeans 'discovered' something that simply does not exist in India, viz. the social organization that the caste system is supposed to be. 

The reason why I have spent time on this issue is to signal in the direction of a problem, which has very far-reaching consequences. If what Europe knows about India resembles what it claims to know about the caste system, what exactly does Europe know about India or her culture? Not very much, I am afraid. Precisely at a time when, to survive in a 'globalizing' world, knowledge of other cultures and peoples is a necessity, it appears as though Europe knows very little about either of the two. 

Perhaps, the absence of knowledge is felt most acutely by the Europeans who invest in India. They rediscover that they are not well-equipped to do business in India. They understand neither the culture, nor the role of cultural differences in management structures and organizations. The books and articles on "culture and management" are full only of platitudes; on top of that, the newest trend in anthropology tells us that the notions of "culture" and "cultural differences" are almost of no use in understanding people. 

In other words, I am suggesting the following: Europe's 'knowledge' about India will be tested during this century. What the Europeans think they know of India tells us more about Europe than it does about India. In that case, quite obviously, the earlier generations of Indian thinkers were not merely busy instituting and defending immoral practices. What else were they doing then? Now, the puzzle becomes very intriguing: what were the Indian thinkers doing in the course of the last two to three thousand years? What did they think and write about? Did they make contributions to human knowledge? If yes, what are they? Answering these and allied questions will become one of the primary preoccupations of the Indian intelligentsia in the course of the twenty-first century. This puzzle is important to the Europeans too. Let me say why by setting the context first. 
Let me sketch the context by raising a question: what has the world to learn from Europe? Here are the familiar answers: science and technology; democracy and the legal system; respect for human rights and ecological awareness; becoming modern and cosmopolitan… When such answers are given, one does not mean that the rest of the world has to learn this or that scientific theory, or a solution to this or that mathematical problem from Europe. One means something like this: the rest of the world has to learn a particular way of going-about with the world from the European culture. That is, one believes that this way of going-about is the unique contribution of the European culture, something that is absent in other cultures. Let us now reverse the question: what has Europe to learn from India? In all the thirty years I have spent in Europe and in all the thousands of books I have probably read, I have not come across a satisfactory answer. Most do not even raise the issue; those who do, mumble about 'learning' things that Europe once knew but has forgotten since. How to understand this situation? 

The first possibility is that there is nothing to learn from India. This is possible, but implausible. It is possible that, much like the 'chosen people' that the Jews believe they are, Europe is the 'chosen' culture from all the cultures that populate the planet. However, it is implausible because I have not come across any explanation for this 'European miracle'. Nevertheless, if there is nothing to learn from India, we can all sleep peacefully: the world, as we know it, will not be disturbed. This is the first possibility. 

Consider the second possibility now. Europe has 'something' to learn from India but many Europeans do not yet know what. Some give the following answers: meditation, yoga, notions of Karma, Vedic astrology… These will not do: not only are there native meditative and astrological traditions in Europe, but such answers are also inadequate. It is like saying that one has to learn partial differential equations from Europe. So, let me push the question further: what is this 'something' Europe has to learn from India? 

At this stage, I normally encounter silence because there does not appear to be any answer to give. Surely, this is strange: Europe has been studying India for centuries; it has colonized her territories and people; it tells Indians what is wrong with their society and culture… And yet, no answer is forthcoming. The Indians know what they have to learn from Europe and they have been learning it for centuries on end. Europe, by contrast, apparently has no proper answer to the question. By virtue of this, the second possibility, i.e. that Europe has something to learn from India but does not know what, is very disturbing. One culture, the Indian, has been learning for generations and centuries; the other culture, the European, does not know what to learn or even whether there is anything to learn. And these two cultures, for the first time in so many hundred years, will meet each other on the world arena as equals and as competitors.  What will the outcome be? 

Whatever the outcome, the meeting between these two cultures sets the context for the puzzle I spoke of earlier. Let me remind you what that puzzle is: what were the Indian thinkers doing in the course of the last two to three thousand years? What did they think and write about? Did they make contributions to human knowledge? If yes, what are they? To these questions, we have one set of indirect answers. In course of the last three hundred years or so, the mainstream theories in social sciences and humanities carry on as though Indian thinkers have made no substantial contributions to human knowledge. However, almost without exception, this splendid corpus of writings about human beings embodies assumptions of the Western culture. Not only have the Western intellectuals created these theories in humanities and social sciences; they also express how this culture has looked at the world so far. Generations of Indian intellectuals have accepted these answers as more or less true as well. The future generations will not be so accommodating though: they will test these answers for their truth. Even today, more and more people in India are gravitating towards this kind of research. This is not of mere academic interest to such people, whose numbers steadily increase. More than most, they realize that answers to these and allied questions have the potential to ignite an intellectual revolution on a world scale. 

My own research, and that of many more in India and Asia, is focused on answering the puzzle. Within the scope of this article, I cannot even hope to tell you what the research results are. Therefore, I am forced to take a rain-check. Nevertheless, let me indicate the far-reaching nature of these results. 

Even a limited acquaintance with the Indian or Asian culture tells us that their thinkers have also produced multiple 'theories' about human beings, which express the way the Indian or even Asian culture looks at the world. Yet, these theories are also contributions to human knowledge. This knowledge is about many things: the nature of human beings, the nature of ethics and morality, how human beings learn, what happiness is and how to reach it, what we could know about human beings… In short, this is knowledge about us; it is also about what we can know, what we might hope for and what we should be doing. As the Indian and the European cultures differ from each other, so do their views about human beings. 

The European intellectuals have elaborated their stories so far. The Indians and the Asians will do the same in the course of this century. These two sets of theories will meet on the world arena too, as equals and as competitors. Today, we think that the European story about human beings constitutes knowledge. That is because there are no competitors to this story as yet. How about tomorrow, when there will be competition in the marketplace of ideas, and Indians and Asians come up with other and different theories? 

So, by the end of this century, there will at least be two different sets of stories about human beings, their societies and cultures. One that the West has produced and the other that India and Asia will develop. Only one of these can be true or both will be false. However, these are issues for tomorrow. Today, let us merely appreciate why the theme of this article is so important to all of us. 


S.N. Balagangadhara is Director of the Research Centre Vergelijkende Cultuurwetenschap, Ghent University, Belgium and  Project Coordinator of the European Commission Asia-Link project DEVHAS -- Development of Human Resources And Strategies -- and this article was written for a DEVHAS project for education on the stereotypical images and cultural differences between Europe and South-Asia, within the European Commission Asia-Link Programme - a programme dedicated to higher education networking between Europe and Asia.  

 
Daily Mail
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Jul 12, 2007 12:00 AM
75
Bob/Bodepudi,

>> "anyone is like Osama here,it is jihadi Ghulam Faruki who should be kicked out of the USA for being a security risk" Jash

Anyone who seeks support from a retarded bigot like Jash/TarunGhosh must be very desperate indeed!

>> This Goebbel's hero is Ahmedinizad of Iran, a known fascist.

I have often called Ahmedinijad a loony, the same thing I call you.

>> For this insane bigot it's OK for 55 Muslim countries to practice religious apartheid and virtually eliminate minorities.

It is not okay with me, but a liar like you would say anything when he runs out of arguments.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 12, 2007 12:00 AM
74
"anyone is like Osama here,it is jihadi Ghulam Faruki who should be kicked out of the USA for being a security risk" Jash

This Goebbel's hero is Ahmedinizad of Iran, a known fascist. He is virulently anti-American regarding all US security issues and the Homeland Security and the State Department can connect the missing dots.

For this insane bigot it's OK for 55 Muslim countries to practice religious apartheid and virtually eliminate minorities while the Hindus can not have their own homeland! His hatred for Hindus-Indics is well known and his 7/24 role as the gestapo cop is widely revealing.

G Goebbels always tries to divert attention from the REAL issues like EXPLODING and UNCHECKED Mualim population numbers and their RATIO in India while trying on a FULL TIME basis to find out who supports the secular fraud so the Al Queda can Islamize India, as it has publicly avowed, even faster.

What the HINDUS-INDICS WANT?

Put a FULL STOP to growing Islamic numbers in India and eventually close all Mosques, as Musharraf has done, in one case, in Pakistan. Muslim Mosques were built on the destroyed temples and are centers of Al Queda-Osama plot to terrorize and Islamize what's left of India.

WE want the shameful names of humiliation to be changed-from AllahsBad, HyderaBad, SecunderaBad, AhmedaBad, AdilaBad-All Bad, and no GOOD

Bob
Barrington, United States
Jul 12, 2007 12:00 AM
73
I am sick and tired of pointing out that I am a normal human being who is always in quest of the Truth.

If you do not like my views or the fact that I point out the hypocrites that most of you are, well, that is your preogative.

However, pray tell me who is not a Jehadist?
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jul 12, 2007 12:00 AM
72
Sewerwallah:
I BELIEVE THIS APPELATION WILL BETTER APPLY TO YOU AS I MENTIONED JINNAH WITH GANDHI AND NEHRU AS JEHADIS OF SORTS. THEY ALSO HAD KILLED AND GOT KILLED FOR INDEPENDENCE. YOU SKIPPED JINNAH'S NAME FOR OBVIOUS REASONS. ARE YOU, THEN, A TRUE CONVERT TO ISLAM?. OR ARE YOU JUST ANOTHER FAKE?.
I hope your Family is very happy to have a ptriarch who believes today's suicide-bombing juhadies are simply following in the footsteps of Gandhi and Nehru.
I DID NOT SUGGEST ANY THING ABOUT FOLLOWING IN FOOTSTEPS. ALL I SAID THAT THEY WERE FIGHTING FOR A CAUSE. THE GOAL WAS THE SAME. THE METHODOLOGY MAY HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT. I SAY MAY HAVE BEEN BECAUSE MORE PEOPLE WERE KILLED DUE TO THE ACTIVITIES AND MOTIVATION OF JINNAH, GANDHI AND NEHRU THAN THE SO-CALLED JEHADIS HAVE OR EVER WILL.
You are a piece of human dung.
THE TRUTH HURTS AND THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH HURTS ABSOLUTELY.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jul 12, 2007 12:00 AM
71
Bob/Bodepudi,

>> It's equating Jews to Hitlers,

Not jews to Hitler. But Zionism has been equated to Nazism by some. Your ideology is even closer to Nazism, except that you have no following, and will never have.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 12, 2007 12:00 AM
70

"Islamofascism and Hindutvafascism are both on the wrong side of history: Goebbels

It's equating Jews to Hitlers. That's why you are called, quite fairly, the Goebbels
Bob
Barrington, United States
Jul 12, 2007 12:00 AM
69
Bob/Bodepudi,

Islamofascism and Hindutvafascism are both on the wrong side of history. Puts Osama and you in the same boat, sailing in a sea of hatred to certain doom.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 12, 2007 12:00 AM
68
Stop giving your Goebbellean twist to the Indic history. Hindus-Indics want freedom from Islamo Fascism while you devise a million ways to openly and covertly support their enemies.

Islamists are on the wrong side of history. Only reason this Islamo Fascism is growing by the day in India is due to the UNHOLY "political correctness" of Congress who let fanatics like you grow uncontrolled, in this HOLY land
Bob
Barrington, United States
Jul 12, 2007 12:00 AM
67
Bob/Bodepudi,

>> Only in India where they will tolerate Allahabad, Secunderabad, Hyderabad, Ahmedabad, Adilabad=-all extremely BAD names-names of enemies that humiliated our men and women of yester years.

In the wars through the ages, you win some and lose some. To call them "humiliations" hundreds of years later is masochistic lunacy. Those names may have positive connotations for some Indics, but by questioning the indic-ness of so many Indics, you have proved yourself to be a bigotted enemy of the Indics.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 12, 2007 12:00 AM
66
"That's right, Moslems have never felt the least bit apologetic about the atrocities and injustices they inflicted on India and other parts of the world. Rather, they actually glorify those atrocities by naming missiles after bloodthirsty Islamic conquerors like Ghazni and Ghauri" Varun

Only in India where they will tolerate Allahabad, Secunderabad, Hyderabad, Ahmedabad, Adilabad=-all extremely BAD names-names of enemies that humiliated our men and women of yester years. The true Indics shall never tolerate such shameful symbols-like snakes crawling all around-and MUST put a stop to the Mosque-centric jihadi training out of business, permanently.
Bob
Barrington, United States
Jul 12, 2007 12:00 AM
65
A very poorly written article. Has an idea but is mired in repetitious questioning of the central idea of the topic. I am concerned how it got through all the proof reading you guys supposedly do.
I can write the gist in a couple of lines instead of the 5 pages. Come on outlook we deserve better.
Nidhi Thubanakere
ST Louis, United States
Jul 12, 2007 12:00 AM
64
Joseph Sewerwallah:

I hope your Family is very happy to have a ptriarch who believes today's suicide-bombing juhadies are simply following in the footsteps of Gandhi and Nehru.

You are a piece of human dung.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jul 11, 2007 12:00 AM
63
Bala:

I am still awaiting your response to Sundari's queriers and why and how freedom of labour to "contract" in a caste-ridden rural India is similar to the European experience.

I am still appalled at your cavalier attitude towards measurement of caste-centric inefficiencies, at least the quantitative. I understand, though, that measuring the qualitative is fraught with
issues relevant to acceptable standards.

While we certainly could device metrics to measure benefits of slavery to slave owners, the cost side is not a walk in the park since the loss incurred by the slaves was asymmetrical, as it was not just material.
Shiva
AllahaBad, India
Jul 11, 2007 12:00 AM
62
As happened during the Second War, there were divergent views regarding the number of Jews killed, to this day. Gypsies were totally annihilated. More Christians were killed than the Jews. But the Jews were proven right, in the end, that there was a horrific Holocaust- several of them over their tortuous history.

Similarly, Islamic invasions were initially for the loot for literally carrying out the injunction:"Kill the Infidels". Only much later, there were massive conversions since the alternative offered was, death.

Instead of name calling, each can quote from sources they consider reliable and both need not agree for the argument to be made, reasonably.
Shiva
AllahaBad, India
Jul 11, 2007 12:00 AM
61
Shiva/Bodepudi,

>> They follow Islam, an Abrahamic tradition, that genocidally killed over 100 million Indics, directly or indirectly, over a millennium. Islam today occupies half of the Indic land and it's more fascist than the Third Reich.

Your lies will never cease. Your figures are phony and motivated by malice. The views that you have repeatedly expressed in this forum are fascism pure and simple e,g, calling on Hindus to unite for no purpose other than to be vengeful, subjugate the minorities, impose different birth control policies on different communities, take away children from their parents to have them raised by the state, and carry on a Goebbelsian campaign of lies and distortions. You have also advocated murder of Muslim priests and razing of Muslim houses of worship. You are a blot on humanity, and a shame for us Indics
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 11, 2007 12:00 AM
60
Shiva/Bodepudi,

>> Best Muslims maintain radio silence, indefinitely, while Jihadi Muslims spread lies through these posts.

It is an obnoxious jihadi Hindu like you, an inveterate spreader of lies and hate, who is the greatest abuser of this forum.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 11, 2007 12:00 AM
59
That's right, Moslems have never felt the least bit apologetic about the atrocities and injustices they inflicted on India and other parts of the world. Rather, they actually glorify those atrocities by naming missiles after bloodthirsty Islamic conquerors like Ghazni and Ghauri. They feel that Moslems historically have done no wrong ever, and that such behaviour as killing, forcibly converting people and destroying temples and viharas was justified since all other people( meaning Christians) did it too.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jul 10, 2007 12:00 AM
58
Ganpat/bagai,

>> When I said that people like them should be deported or sentenced to long internment you were furious.

When you say "people like them", you spread your net very wide. Americans still feel ashamed for putting Japanese Americans in internment camps after Pearl harbor. I am for the most rigorous punishment for terrorists, but we must also remember how the British justice system convicted and imprisoned several Irishmen who were later found to be innocent, and Blair had to offer a belated apology on behalf of the British government. These thing may not matter much to a simple minded bigot like youself, but they are important to others.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 10, 2007 12:00 AM
57
The author is certainly a confused man.Either he has limited intellectual potential or his knowledge is insufficient.He is neither able to define Indian culture nor the European!This article is a waste of time and space!
nasar
Raleigh, USA
Jul 10, 2007 12:00 AM
56
While I look forward to Bala’s alternative story, I never labeled Bala as a “post-colonial writer.” I observed that the critique in this particular piece is based on post-colonial theory which is also a Western culture generated knowledge. I don’t know who Nicholas Dirks is nor have read him.

I also look forward to reading Bala’s writings mentioned. Perhaps, he could kindly direct us to where we can locate them. Whether this article was a result of a 15 minute talk or a culmination of 15 years of detailed study, it was offered into the public domain. Implicit by that offering is an invitation for others to agree or disagree. If lady luck were on our side, our opinions will be based on cogent and persuasive reasons.

Regardless, I prefer to stop playing games--both childish and adult—altogether and get on with the task of thinking and fixing the country.

Sunder Iyappa
Sundari
Chennai, India
Jul 09, 2007 12:00 AM
55
If the author means by "learning" from the Europeans,Science and Technology he is mistaken.
European culture(western,including the USA),has become "porn" culture.
Each culture had its time in this Universe.Now its he turn of the west.But they are good technologically,only,otherwise,they live an empty or tension-filled life(relieved by the "hippy culture" or drug of the 60s,which has been replaced by porn,now).
India too taught the world many things like Nyaya,which is later termed in English as Logic etc etc.One can go on and on about philosophy etc.
Ultimately,the aim in Life is not to hurt others,which unfortunately neither the Europeans nor the Americans care for.This makes all their contributions to the world are useless or insignificant.
Note:-there is a school of thought,subscribing to the view,that a few elites from the USA and Europe,Japan,,Australia,Canada,New Zealand,are trying to rule the world.
Please
visit:-
www.conspiracyarchive.com
www.voxfux
.com
{Pease use the link,"Vatican Assassins",in the second site above).
K.V.Sadasivan
Bharuch, India
Jul 09, 2007 12:00 AM
54
Balu:

You speak repeatedly of others not having "proven" anything.....What have you proven?

Commonsense should indicate that caste cannot have helped Indians to unite in the face of foreign aggression or given them a sense of the state. Naturally, India became notorious for being ruled by foreigners, and large parts of territory once Hindu have disppeared into the world of Islam, a process still going on in Kashmir in today's India.

If you thought caste defended Hinduism successfully, you might be writing from Lahore instead of of Belgium.

Brahminists - too many of them - simply cannot learn even from the bitterest experience. V S Naipauil noted this despairingly. I guess that is why they are doomed.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jul 09, 2007 12:00 AM
53
"However I think the answers cannot be found in the ‘English’ language. The research needs to be done in the local language – Sanskrit, Tamil, Telugu etc etc."

I agree. This is a difficult but crucial point.


Pradip Singh
stafford, uk
Jul 08, 2007 12:00 AM
52
An apology to all: the URL address contains a period at the end, which gives you an error message. For the sake of convenience, here is the correct URL:

http://groups.yahoo.com...heheatheninhisblindness


Friendly greetings

Balu
Balagangadhara
Sint-Denijs-Westrem, Belgium
Jul 08, 2007 12:00 AM
51
Dear Sunder,

Let me begin by complimenting you on your sharpness: yes, I do not offer an alternative story (though I intend doing it); yes, too, to your observation that my argument requires more than the mere existence of poverty and discrimination to 'prove' the presence of the caste system. However, despite this acuity, I am surprised to see you succumb all too easily to silly labeling: I am a post-colonial writer! I am not: I find post-colonial thinking pernicious, puerile and damaging. I do not say anywhere in my article that the British 'created' the caste system in India, do I? Perhaps, your hastiness has to do with the fact that you read Nicholas Dirks as superficially (a commendable attitude, as far as I am concerned, because he is a pompous windbag) as you read my article (not at all commendable, if you ask me).

I do not argue, in the confines of this article, what the West has done or has not. I merely suggest it. If you want arguments, you need to read my scientific writings and measure their value. To jump up and down about a talk, which this article is, lasting 15 minutes is to miss the forest for the trees and the trees for the leaves and the leaves for...

I do agree that one should leave a child's play to children. But then, what should I do when the person who advises me about this does not even know what games I am playing as an adult?

Friendly greetings

Balu
Balagangadhara
Sint-Denijs-Westrem, Belgium
Jul 08, 2007 12:00 AM
50
Dear Shiva,

Thank you for engaging yourself in a reasonable discussion. To your challenges, here are my responses:

1. To compare Europe with India, you say, is like comparing apples to oranges. Strange, coming from someone who cited arguments from economic theories: apples and oranges are both fruits and as such one can compare them as fruits; not only can they be compared but one also chooses between them when the resources are scarce! So, what point is being made by you? To say that 'these rigidities are breaking down' or suggest that one needs to deal with the 'qualitative and quantitative dimensions' is to say nothing with respect to the question at hand: you suggested that 'the caste system' was causally responsible for poverty in India. Apples and oranges hardly support your argument about this issue. Speaking about 'devising the metrics' might sound impressive; but it is empty in this context.

2. I have neither spoken of 'free choice' nor of any 'open organizational structure'. Why bring up irrelevant issues into the discussion? You say: "Society has functioned for millennia as an ORGANIZATION that has imposed its rules and restrictions on social mobility, based on birth." Ah, you see, that is what you have to prove. Simple declarations do not suffice in scientific discussions. Show that the Indian society has functioned the way you claim it has. Let me tell you what you have to do to prove this: lay the mechanisms of such a distribution bare. Until such time, you are simply repeating banalities, which are false, but which many assume to be true.

3. Again, you sidestep the question. By telling me that you think that 'capitalism' is breaking down the 'caste structure' to replace it with 'social classes', you have told me nothing that the Marxists in India have been proclaiming for a century. Surely, this is no argument!

Friendly greetings


Balu
Balagangadhara
Sint-Denijs-Westrem, Belgium
Jul 08, 2007 12:00 AM
49
Dear Satyamurti,

While I understand the sentiments behind your post, I would advise you to be less 'pessimistic'. Many wonderful people in the world are doing things that is going to take India back to her rightful place in the world. I suggest you also try to read the posts and the discussions on the yahoo group that I spoke of in my reply to Prabhu. While this is not to deny that much more needs doing, it also draws your attention to the fact that the process has already begun.

Friendly greetings

Balu
Balagangadhara
Sint-Denijs-Westrem, Belgium
Jul 08, 2007 12:00 AM
48
Dear Prabhu,

Whether we like it or not, we need to give answers in the English language. And, I have begun the process of answering some of these questions, as have some of my students. It is a beginning, no doubt; equally indubitable is that many, many more questions have to be answered. If you are interested, I refer you to a Yahoo group:

http://groups.yahoo.com...eheatheninhisblindness.
I suggest that you take a look at the discussions and the files uploaded there. It might help you further in your quest.

Friendly greetings


Balu
Balagangadhara
Sint-Denijs-Westrem, Belgium
Jul 08, 2007 12:00 AM
47
I wish to congratulate the author for such an excellent article. I am very glad that there are a few souls in this world thinking on the same lines as myself.
It was a very pertinent article which raised a lot of superb questions. The same puzzle that I have been brooding on for quite a while with no tangible answers. It is unfortunate though that the author does not give away or even attempt to give away anything by way of answers. “Within the scope of this article, I cannot even hope to tell you what the research results are.” However I think the answers cannot be found in the ‘English’ language. The research needs to be done in the local language – Sanskrit, Tamil, Telugu etc etc.
I once again wish to thank the author for the wonderful, really wonderful article and Outlook Magazine for highlighting the issue. I only wish someone could give me the answers in the future.
Prabhu
Newcastle upon tyne, United Kingdom
Jul 08, 2007 12:00 AM
46
Dear Mr.Balagangadhara,
As of now, India has nothing to contribute to the world in the twenty first century except to drumbeat the morals of Buddah or Gandhi who are not even remembered in the very country they were born. They are meant only for window dressing. Of course, it is only the beginning of the century in question. India is in the melting pot now. Perhaps after the next two or three decades, the country may find itself in a position to make some substantial contributions in the fields of science and technology and to bring back our Planet now teetering on the edges of ecology disaster if it makes rapid advancement in the Educational system that is in shambles now. When, for every product imported, it insists technology transfer, what is there for India to contribute now to the world?
With regards,
T.Sathyamurthi
Folsom, United States
Jul 08, 2007 12:00 AM
45
Sorry for the mulitiplicity.

Sunder Iyappa
Sundari
Chennai, India
Jul 08, 2007 12:00 AM
44
test
Sundari
Chennai, India
Jul 08, 2007 12:00 AM
43
I have to give credit to Bala for engaging the participants in this forum. Having said that, his follow-up comments only damage his argument. He claims some misread the piece in haste. He admits that turning the "standard story" on its head is a child's play. Yet, a child's play is all that is offered as a response to the "standard story." No claim that it is an intellectually more rigorous explanation. Just that it is A response. Yet, those who dismiss this child's play are ignorant.

His argument for the lack of a causal nexus between caste system and poverty/injustice in India is schoolboy sophistry. Other places have poverty/injustice without caste structures as known in India. Therefore, poverty/injustice in India (even in theory as opposed to in fact) could not be caused by the caste system. Existence of discrimination/injustice (which he presumably doesn’t deny) is not a proof of the existence of a caste system but only of discrimination. However, discrimination BASED ON caste is a strong inference of the causal nexus. As such, proving the existence of a caste system is moot assuming it was ever disputed. It is no accident that the “dominant story” turned on its head hasn’t been described as JUST or RIGHT.

I only argued intellectuals must seriously upgrade their thinking before India can discernibly impact the world of contemporary ideas.

Actually, the notion that caste is a mute victim that bears no culpability for India’s social woes is itself a tiresome prejudice. At its heart, Bala argues the “dominant story” is illegitimate because it is a Western culture generated knowledge. Not that it was erroneous or that an alternative theory more fully explains a broader social history. The irony here is the post-colonial theoretical critique that Bala offers is itself “nonsense generated by Western culture.” So much for the pot calling the kettle black.

The task of grappling with what it means to be an Indian requires intellectuals to leave child’s play to children.

Sunder Iyappa
Sundari
Chennai, India
Jul 08, 2007 12:00 AM
42
I have to give credit to Bala for engaging the participants in this forum. Having said that, his follow-up comments only damage his argument. He claims some misread the piece in haste. He admits that turning the "standard story" on its head is a child's play. Yet, a child's play is all that is offered as a response to the "standard story." No claim that it is an intellectually more rigorous explanation. Just that it is A response. Yet, those who dismiss this child's play are ignorant.

His argument for the lack of a causal nexus between caste system and poverty/injustice in India is schoolboy sophistry. Other places have poverty/injustice without caste structures as known in India. Therefore, poverty/injustice in India (even in theory as opposed to in fact) could not be caused by the caste system. Existence of discrimination/injustice (which he presumably doesn’t deny) is not a proof of the existence of a caste system but only of discrimination. However, discrimination BASED ON caste is a strong inference of the causal nexus. As such, proving the existence of a caste system is moot assuming it was ever disputed. It is no accident that the “dominant story” turned on its head hasn’t been described as JUST or RIGHT.

I only argued intellectuals must seriously upgrade their thinking before India can discernibly impact the world of contemporary ideas.

Actually, the notion that caste is a mute victim that bears no culpability for India’s social woes is itself a tiresome prejudice. At its heart, Bala argues the “dominant story” is illegitimate because it is a Western culture generated knowledge. Not that it was erroneous or that an alternative theory more fully explains a broader social history. The irony here is the post-colonial theoretical critique that Bala offers is itself “nonsense generated by Western culture.” So much for the pot calling the kettle black.

The task of grappling with what it means to be Indian requires intellectuals to leave child’s play to children.

Sunder Iyappa
Sundari
Chennai, India
Jul 07, 2007 12:00 AM
41
Bala,

>> caste has been said to be an antiquated,rigid, dogmatic, etc social structure, which is "very difficult" to eradicate. If this is true .... then this can be put on its head very easily.

If it is put on its head, what do you get exactly?

>> The issue is not about whether there is poverty and injustice in India. Instead, it is about wanting to correlate these with the caste system.

The caste system may not have caused poverty, but if it affected the distribution pattern of poverty to any significant extent, then that by itself would be indictment enough.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 07, 2007 12:00 AM
40
1. Assume that caste system "restricts free movement of labour for efficient resource allocation" (Shiva's claim). From this it does not follow that wherever such "restrictions" occur, poverty should exist. All the European economies "restrict" free movement of labour. what kind of poverty are we talking about in the West?

2. Caste cannot 'restrict' any such 'free' movement because there is no organization to impose and enforce any such restrictions. When you apply for a job in industries, they do not appoint you to positions in function of your 'caste'. When people buy products, they do not buy them in function of the 'caste' of either the owner or the workers.

3. If "feeding the parasitic class" (Shiva, again) is 'injustice' then, all the countries in the world are 'unjust' and, one supposes, they do not have the caste system. Therefore, the point if meant as a critique of the 'caste system' fails.

4. "The ability of the system to defend itself against external threats". (Shiva, once more.) You would do well to read the article before criticizing. If the caste system survives as a system today, it proves that it has defended "itself" very well against threats, both internal and external.

Such off-the-cuff remarks (without reading the article carefully and writing unthinkingly) do not carry the discussion forward.

Friendly greetings

Balu
Balagangadhara
Sint-Denijs-Westrem, Belgium
Jul 07, 2007 12:00 AM
39
The term 'poorNa' is also used for 'zero' in hindu advaita philosophy. "poorNam idam porNam adah pornaat poorNam udacyate; poorNasya poorNam aadaaya poorNam eva avaSishyate", meaning intial unmanifest existence is zero[vacuum], manifest existence of matter and spirit[antimatter] is also zero, since the two opposites cancel eachother; zero added to or subtracted from zero, remains as zero only. The concepts of zero and negative values are both inherent in the statement.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jul 07, 2007 12:00 AM
38
I guess if I had read the clarification of MR.SNB maybe that would have taken off some points I made in my response. However, I still have to disagree with the clarification. NO one on this earth can remove the caste system it is how the classification has been done but the degree of emphasis and lenses through which we Indians view and thanks to the western world and media its magnified out of proportion.

It is not critically looking inwardly about just caste system...do we ever ask who is perpetuating it...it is the vested and cheap politicians, yes its an helpless and frustrating individuals comment which needs collective strenght of millions to fight.

We do not lack anything thing, the mindset that needs to change is to become competitive and progress economically FIRST so that the ill-thoughts are subjugated within. Once the economic strength is in place the culture, the arts, the finer things in life will flourish automatically. Where did the west get the resources to go and flourish it is by expanding the economic boundaries and coffers.

India is still a few hundereds of years behind relative to the developed line of thinking. We INDIANS NEED TO REMIND OURSELF TO KEEP IT TOGETHER A UNIQUE AND DISTINCT 'INDIANNESS' with all the plurality and freedom to be own while building the capabilities to COMPETE AND DEVELOP THE KILLER INSTINCT IN THE GLOBAL ARENA. The biggest vulnerability is our free from of life and being, we do not have the pillars and structures to keep us together with reference to cultural, economical, religious and educational. We talk about reforms did the concept of reforms come from our own mind, if not for crisis and arm twisting by the international institutions we would not even think about reforms....the question every INDIAN SHOULD ASK....WHY CANT WE THINK IN TERMS OF TAKING THE CHARGE TO MARCH FORWARD,WHY CANT WE THINK OF CONTRIBUTING SOMETHING TO THE COUNTRY AND IN LARGE FOR HAVING THIS LIFE AND SO ON...IT CAN BE CONTINUED.
sastri v
Hyd, India
Jul 07, 2007 12:00 AM
37
Though there are some good points in SN Balagangadhara's argument, I have to respectfully strike off and disagree the very premise his argument is based. While reading the write up the thought crossed my mind that someone must have paid him to write this article and true to my thoughts I find that SNB works for an European Institute.

The argument what India has contributed to human kind is flawed, short sighted and ill-informed. Further stating that only Gandhi and Buddha as the key figures and comparing them to vedas, social customs, yoga is just meaningless, he is trying to compare snapshots of two different time periods without making any sense of connection to the whole. It is just illogical.

Let me remind you MR. SNB, Indian culture, values and systems are thousands of years old. The great people of this land were blessed by the divine they laid out how life should be lived, the philosophies and conduct. These people were greatest visionaries ever known however the emphasis was spiritual. Unlike the west and europeans, who were plunderers, pirates, barabrians. While the east laid out principles and philosophies of life based on divine blessings and wisdom and the west followed the philosphies of animal kingdom and life of jungle. The resultant economic pursuits by west have given an environment for pursuit of other things. Mr. SNB, dont you even know a simple example how life was lived in so called 'Ram Rajya' or for that matter any king who ruled over states in India. While the state is strong people, art, culture flourish so did in India but in patchy spots.

Talking about caste system the people in India laid down physical boundaries while the west deals with it subtly, Mr.SNB do you think there are no social classes,racist bias etc in UK,Europe,US. You probably are sitting in a hole,I believe.

What the present generation and future generation needs is not to feel denigrated by these not so enlightened western intelligentia and think tanks.
We need a common thread of belief that is "Indianess' that encompasses the ways of lifes, the practices, the customs, the beliefs and the richness of the pluralism. Along with the pursuit of economic progress, we Indians need to learn the organizational skills of keeping it together. India has never exported anything that was its own culturally, we dumb Indians have left others to interpret it as they want and kept silent till this point. We do not know how to setup institutions and spread our knowledge and culture.

This reminds me that just like the Muslim population and its affiliation and loyalty to World Muslims we are going to have a similar problem with christians, the way the conversions are going on in India it would not be time when these folks will be loyal to the Rome, US,UK. Thanks to the support of the cheap political leaders the country produced who can not think beyond saving their seats and segmenting Indian population for votes.

Its time to awake and rise to the challenges of the globalized world. India was like a baby sitting at home scared and soft however its time to step out of the cozy home, stop thinking of 3 meals and a langoti and ASSERT its presence economically, academically, culturally and show to the world what we have. We have the GREATEST GUIDING PRINCIPLES AND PHILOSOPHIES IN VEDAS, SCRIPTURES AND GITA. THERE IS NOTHING TO PARALLEL THESE FOR EONS.

Jai Hind.
sastri v
Hyd, India
Jul 07, 2007 12:00 AM
36
I don't know why the pathetic clown, joseph, Infiltrates and announces the arrival of pakis and islam even into an article that has nothing to do with either. What to do with these paki jokers?
chaitanya
chennai, India
Jul 07, 2007 12:00 AM
35
""Whether or not it turns out to be a Good Century depends upon the attitude of the 5.11115 billion Non-Muslims. Going by cuurrent trends the foreboding are discouraging ""

CHACHA JOE ; WHAT ABOUT THE RESPONSIBILITITES OF MUSLIMSM TOWARDS OTHER RACES ?? JEHAD ??
Oldi you are a lost cow ! Totally petrified by Islamists .
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jul 07, 2007 12:00 AM
34
Dear Friends,

It appears to me that the article, which was initially a talk of about 15 minutes, is generating more heat than light. One reason is a hasty reading of the piece; the other is accumulated prejudice; the third is not grasping the question. A word or two about each.


1. When I took the caste-system as an example, what am I doing? I am showing that turning the standard story on its head is a child's play: caste has been said to be an antiquated,rigid, dogmatic, etc social structure, which is "very difficult" to eradicate. If this is true, most of the rantings on this board seem to subscribe to this text book story, then this can be put on its head very easily. A word of warning, therefore, to those who ramble on about the 'immoral' caste system: take heed! You do not know what you are talking about.


The issue is not about whether there is poverty and injustice in India. Instead, it is about wanting to correlate these with the caste system. To do this, all one has to show is that poverty and injustice in India is the causal result of the caste system in India, whereas, in other countries of the world, they are the results of 'something else'. No one in the world has been able to show this; if some among you have proof to the contrary, kindly demonstrate. Indulging in shouting matches is easier than arguing reasonably.


I am aware of the Indian reality. That is the reason why I wrote this piece. A silly anti-brahmanism, which still rules the day, no matter how popular it is, does not explain anything. So, a mind-numbing litany of the stories about the so-called 'caste discrimination by the upper castes' is not a substitute for a scientific analysis of the Indian society and culture. The existence of discrimination is not a proof for the existence of caste system in India; it merely shows that there is discrimination in India. More intellectual work is required to demonstrate this than rantings on a website. Reading the article with some care would have made this point clear.

2. My question is: what has India to offer to the world in the twenty-first century? This cannot be answered by speaking about the discovery of 'zero' or any such example from the past. Even less can it be answered by speaking about what the Indians are doing today. If you do so, then you are suggesting that, as far as the future is concerned, India has 'nothing' to contribute. You are, of course, free to entertain the thought that the past of India is the only contribution of India to the history of humankind. In which case, please say so. But keep to the question without bringing up irrelevant considerations.

3. The piece could as well have been written as a response to the some of the rantings on this board. A monotonous reproduction of accumulated prejudices, whether about the caste system or the Buddha, does not constitute anything but a monotonous reproduction of accumulated prejudices. The article suggests that critically examining such prejudices is the task of the future generations of Indian intellectuals. In this sense, many on the board confirm an implied message in the article: in the past, all that the Indians have done is to reproduce the nonsense that the western culture generated. Indeed so.

Friendly greetings

Balu
Balagangadhara
Sint-Denijs-Westrem, Belgium
Jul 07, 2007 12:00 AM
33
The tongue speaks of the breed. True in the case of Parbat laldenga he is a tortured soul.
Caste system is not just about cleaning shit by dalit from a Brahmin’s home. Discrimination in all shades needs to be wiped from societies be it caste, Islam or Christianity. Parbat lalgend seems to be constitutionally incapable of taking a balanced approach to anything.
Enough of culture bashing, Kudos to the years of slavery and incapable thinkers of modern India, Indians by and large don’t have a perception of india's culture and rich history.
Wunder
dubai, United Arab Emirates
Jul 07, 2007 12:00 AM
32
Arun, are you implying that Indians in India haven't done anything these last 60 years? That simply isn't true. Name the field of endeavour- astrophysics, biochemistry, cement, steel, medicine, statistics, software, agriculture- and there is an Indian contribution. It would be accurate to say that most of these achievements don't measure up to what the US, Germany, France or Japan have achieved. But comparing India to those countries at this stage would be grossly unfair. Remember that India is more free, open, pluralistic and heterogenous than countries like Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand,Philippines, Vietnam and South Korea.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jul 07, 2007 12:00 AM
31
India has already offered much. The movement of Buddhism, and all its related art and literature, from India to Tibet, China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, Burma, Sri Lanka and Central Asia was the most peaceful transmission of cultural influence in the world's history. The other major historical cultural influences were all effected by violent, military conquest or similar dubious means. Commentators forget that when they thump their chests about the British influence or the Moslem influence. Those were extremely violent and dishonourable influences.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jul 07, 2007 12:00 AM
30
"There is hardly a field in industry or science where Indians *haven't* made a contribution, though of course India for historic reasons cannot be equated( as yet) to the US, Germany, Japan et al in sheer volume or quality."

Varun .... the issue is not a 0 or 1. However, it does appear true that Indians do get too full of themselves too quickly. In most of the cases of contributions by Indians, it has been in places where the environment is much more conducive to excellence with birth and origins not the major determinator of the person's future. BUT at home as a culture (and many times the same people), give too much importance to "birth" as the determinator of the future rather than as a culture focusing on "environment" for most of our children.
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Jul 07, 2007 12:00 AM
29
Though initially positive about the Gangadharan's article, one could start doubting its merit: if this is the intellectual rigor and sincerity with which 21st century "Indians" debate on a public forum, one sincerely wonders whether anyone has to learn something, anything from "India".

Arguments ad hominem and mud-swinging do not really feature in what I understand to be knowledge production. But then again, I give the author the benefit of the doubt: it seems that many on this board might not be representative for those who can "contribute to the world of today and tomorrow"?

Cheers to all of you – you have done a remarkable job in making your countrymen look like perfect asses!
shantaram babu
London, United Kingdom
Jul 07, 2007 12:00 AM
28
Sarah says Bala is not defending the caste system. While he is not doing it directly, he is indirectly. What else is the normative implication of an allegedly stable, decentralized, self-reproducing, adaptive, dynamic and politically robust system of social organization? So what if today’s dominant picture is a result of West’s encounter with India? What matters is its ability to fundamentally explain a broad social reality.

Most of what is known and discovered by West was the work of disinterested individuals pursuing their idiosyncratic curiosities rather than as imperial servants distorting evidence for imperial purpose. For example, Sir William Jones studied Sanskrit on his own time with no imperial prompting. Similarly, if there were a more robust and alternative explanation other than caste, nothing prevented it from becoming dominant. Even the imperialists had no use for false explanations. Falsities don't explain and predict Indian behaviour and interfere with imperial ends. More accurate knowledge meant less gunpowder. I am not aware of a single restriction, official or unofficial, that prevented colonial Indians from learning and compiling disinterested knowledge of Indian culture and traditions. Indians didn’t have the interest or incentive. In contrast, their interest laid in metaphysical speculations that consumed their energies.

Bala’s drawing attention to a lack of knowledge of Indian culture and traditions is an Indian problem. Perhaps, not even a problem! Indians don’t feel the need to understand anyone beyond their immediate clique. No ideological basis supports seeking out such knowledge. Instead, like Gandhi, they are more apt to point out Greece and Rome have passed away but India endures. What motivated them to seek such knowledge, historically speaking? In contrast, current Europeans need to understand very little “to do business.”

A linguistic exercise resulting in a “diametrically opposed…description” does not vitiate the facts of engineering colleges where pupils from dominant castes prevent other pupils sitting in the front rows of a classroom in year 2007. Bala’s “argumentative purpose” of reaching “opposite conclusions” is a parlor game disconnected from the real lives of hundreds of millions of people. “The classical account of caste” has to comport with the real lives of real people in the past and present. Otherwise, it was merely rationalizing status quo.

The burden of proof is initially on Sarahs of this world to show the incentive for generations of Indians and Europeans to cling to falsities despite a more apparent and compelling explanations. And how in the world did Sarah immunize herself from prejudices others Europeans and Indians could not overcome?

Sunder Iyappa
Sundari
Chennai, India
Jul 07, 2007 12:00 AM
27
Satyamurthi, no one seriously believes old chestnuts about how Indians lack the ability to be innovative, so your multinational exec must be really insular or ignorant to make a statement like that. There is hardly a field in industry or science where Indians *haven't* made a contribution, though of course India for historic reasons cannot be equated( as yet) to the US, Germany, Japan et al in sheer volume or quality. I can't believe an Indian in this day and age making a statement like the Vedas prevent Hindus from developing products in 2007.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jul 07, 2007 12:00 AM
26
Sarah,

>> it shows that the dominant description cannot be knowledge, since one could as well reach opposite conclusions from its claims about ‘the caste system’.

The idea of opposite conclusions regarding the caste system would be offensive to many.

>> Once one studies the history of the classical account of caste, one begins to wonder as to how generations of Indians and Europeans could take it seriously.

How else should it be taken?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 07, 2007 12:00 AM
25
Dear Sarah,

it's nice of you that you explained the actual line of argument by Bala once again... almost all of the comments from various members, for this article, are merely at low level bashing about caste, and farting about India offering cheap labor and Yoga etc... no wonder, these well-oiled, brain-dead scum bags with only religion and caste topics to discuss have no intellectual ability to rise above these petty things...

It's a pity that even this high level analysis about cross cultural understanding is brought down to mud slinging level by our inept readers...
Raj
Leipzig, Germany
Jul 07, 2007 12:00 AM
24
Dear OutlookIndia.com readers,

Without going into my astonishment at the base level of discussion exemplified in many comments on this board, I would like to add a few words to the discussion.

While Balagangadhara is drawing the attention to a lack of knowledge on the Indian culture and traditions, many completely misunderstand his argument as a defence of the caste system.

Basically, the central question he poses is: what if the standard textbook story about the Indian culture and society is wrong? What do we have as an alternative? This standard story, which is still dominant today both in common sense as well as in academic literature, repeats the image of India as a society dominated by caste and religion; by implication, it represents the majority of Indians as immoral and backward. The author challenges this portrayal by inviting the readers to think along. Today’s dominant picture of India has its roots in the Western encounter with India. However, even though this realization is growing, alternative descriptions are still very scarce. Today, with the emergence of India as a global player, such new and cognitively superior descriptions are very much needed.

The argument on the caste system in this piece merely serves to illustrate our general lack of understanding of Indian society. Balagangadhara does not deny the existence of poverty and other societal problems in India, nor does he deny that discrimination between certain groups exists. He does something altogether different. (1) First, he discredits the dominant description of caste, by turning it on its head: the empirical properties that are commonly attributed to ‘the caste system’ could as well be used to give an account that stands diametrically opposed to the dominant description. This serves an argumentative purpose only: it shows that the dominant description cannot be knowledge, since one could as well reach opposite conclusions from its claims about ‘the caste system’. (2) Second, he suggests we have to look into the history of the dominant descriptions of Indian society. There, we see a striking similarity between 16th- and 17th-century Protestant descriptions of the medieval Catholic Church and the descriptions travellers started giving not so much later of the Indian society: a corrupt religious hierarchy, with corrupted priests, deceiving the laymen, keeping them stupid, oppressing the masses and thereby exercising a religious tyranny over all members of society. Sounds like the familiar description of the Indian caste system, does it not? Isn’t it surprising that the travellers raised in this culture, with this background, went to India and found the same structure there?

Once one studies the history of the classical account of caste, one begins to wonder as to how generations of Indians and Europeans could take it seriously.

Kind regards,
sarah
sarah
Ghent, Belgium
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
23
ganesh:

If after all these years of living among Brahminists you still don't know what caste is, and why it is far more segregationist and separatist and ostracising than any other form of social stratification or class known, I can't help you.

Caste is ingrained in brahminist religion, and traditionally makes it very difficult for Hindus to associate across caste lines in marriage, socialising or worship. It has obviously eased somewhat in modern times due to Western influence, but the vast majority of Indians still live their lives within caste bounds. The idea of ritual pollution is unknown except in the caste system in India.


It is separatist way of life unknown in the West or elsewhere in the world, where people intermingle and intermarry incomparably more freely, and do not vote according to any grouping resembling caste. I live in the West and I have lived in India. I or any sane person can see the difference between caste and class with their own eyes.

I could go on, but won't bother. Shitheads like you are not worth it.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
22
The Europeans by nature have the innovative and inquisitive mind and they use it well to improve the conditions of their lives with new inventions. The period of Renaissance in Europe saw the beginning of vigorous artistic and intellectual activities and that instinct still continues in them. They don't worry much and waste their present lives to think about Karma or the cycle of birth. The Vedas of the Hindus. on the contrary, bound it's followers to be pious and to renounce the worldly pleasures in the current life so as to have mukthi or a better life in the next birth if the cycle of birth can not be avoided. Whether or not the Hindus strictly follow these dicta of vedas is another matter. But this kind of religious enforcements to think and act in the present life for a better life in the next birth had a dampening effect on the minds of the Hindus to look forward and be innovative in the current life. This trait unfortunately continues even now. Once I met a CEO of a Multinational company and in the course of the chat, he said that Indian Engineers though good in their work, do lack managerial skills and the innovative mind to create new products. It is my considered opinion that the religion is responsible for this disability among the Hindus to a large extent.
T.Sathyamurthi
Folsom, United States
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
21
>> If castes were meant to be the same as today's Trade Unions ?

But what about the hierarchical aspect?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
20
Nobody is asking India to offer anything, you crapulent buffoon.

All the civilized world asks is that India should treat the vast majority of its own unhappy and suffering men, women and children with a minimum of humanenesss and decency.

Keep your "great" culture.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
19
In france I have observed in big companies people of the same rank flock together when going to lunch.
is it caste ???
If castes were meant to be the same as today's Trade Unions ?
What if a man gets an inner and deeper knowledge of a profession by being brought in a family and a community environment giving him more information on that profession than any source of knowledge ???(schools, books , media) of knowledge....
ganesh
stbenoit, France
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
18
Why is the question even asked "What can India offer?" Does anyone ask what can Philippines offer, or what can Malaysia offer or Thailand or South Korea or Burma? Right off the cuff, India can offer richness of the human element, accomodation of tremendous diversity, thriving of the human spirit in adverse circumstances, special talent such as Shakuntala Devi, P.C Sorcar, Ramanujam, R.K Narayan, Subbalakshmi, J.C Bose, Krishnamurti, Radhakrishnan, novel hi tech facilities like the GMRT, lower cost and resonable quality work in software, BPO, medical transcription, financial analysis etc.
Was the question ever asked for any other country, even Japan for instance? Or for China?
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
17

Also, never forget that it was Indians and Indians alone who answered the question about the division by zero. Bhaskara asserted that it was infinity. Chinese, Arabs and Europeans until a very late stage did not tussle with that problem.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
16
Thirty years in Europe and thousands of books haven’t washed Bala of what Naipaul calls “Indian method of argument.” Add to it a strange brew of insecurity and bravado, Bala thoughts are childish and inconsequential.

What can India offer the world? Unsure himself, Bala tackles a different issue of who needs to answer that question more urgently. He answers both Europeans and Indians for different reasons. Chinese, Japanese, Koreans and Americans will have moved to Mars by then? Europeans “to do business in India” will jettison current knowledge of Indian culture and people and wait on Indian intellectuals to reinterpret them authoritatively. And Europeans will uncritically swallow wholesale the fruits of such labor. So with the wave of a magic wand, Europe will begin to see caste as a stable, decentralized, self-reproducing, adaptive, dynamic and politically robust system of social organization. Left unsaid, once Europe recovers from its self-deception, it will beat down India’s door to reorganize its society along castes and have India play “Guru” at whose feet it will play “Sishu.” Such childish fantasies substitute for thinking among Indian intellectuals.

Bala concludes rather lamely India can offer “multiple theories about human beings…are also contributions to human knowledge…etc.” No one denies India has multiple theories. But none of them explain the full gamut of Indian cultures and people let alone rest of the world. Thus, they dismiss self-aggrandizing theories of Indian elites as little more than harmless cheerleading. But I am getting ahead of myself.

Bala admits the obvious: lack of a hypothesis—let alone a consensus--of what it means to be an Indian. Otherwise, why start looking for one now? Bala says such introspection is necessitated by India’s thrust into the forefront of the affairs of mankind. But in this self-definition effort, Indians will not be writing on a tabula rasa (blank slate). Europeans have already defined India and Indian culture using “European cultural framework” to some extent. Bala implicitly says Europeans interpreted India to suit their purposes--which is to feel superiour to Indians. Let’s leave it to psychologists whether this is a case of Indian elites projecting themselves on to others. Ruling India and Indians was a concrete task; a task made needlessly expensive with theories that didn’t reflect reality. On the one hand, we are to conclude that their cultural framework distorted fundamental realities of India. On the other, the same framework served Europe to accomplish what Bala's list dismisses summarily and enviously.

Bala confuses normal trade of goods and services with exporting a paradigm shifting philosophy. He argues a hike in the GDP growth rate by a few percent automatically leads to credibility to reinterpret India. A fat wallet buys intellectual authority. That’s not how the world of ideas works. Bala forgets India always had that freedom colonialism and poverty notwithstanding. The world will politely listen to such self-aggrandizing puffery and smile as it skillfully exploit such insecurities.

What can India offer the world? Cheap labor and vacuous talk as long as Indian intellectuals think and argue like Bala.

Sunder Iyappa
Sundari
Chennai, India
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
15
I assume the author actually means "West" when he uses "Europe". The focal point for the "West" has shifted to the US, so "What can India offer the west or US?" is more apropo - Europe (and the part the author speaks about - "old" europe in Bushism is by and large irrelevant and squeezed between US and the rise of Asia - China, India, whatever).

However, I do hope we have no doubts that whatever value "caste" might have had, it's ills far outweigh. I am convinced it the major roadblock in our progress towards modernity, economic progress and life of dignity as a free people.
1. It's a system that has resulted in Birth being the most important determinator of human being's future rather than enviroment. Hence, as a people/nation ensuring everyone gets the environment and opportunity.
2. 100% reservation which is what caste was, can never result in a culture of excellence. It can only be mediocre and only go downhill from there. Which is what happened to us - we touched upon many human endeavors but never excelled at much of anything - it just fizzled out somewhere on the way.
3. It has created an Indian mindset that can very easily discriminate and very easily get into superiority/inferiority complexes.

As I have oft repeated, I just keep hoping the process of modern democracy, and urbanization might just finally "kill" caste as opposed to earlier movements which failed. If it doesn't, we will just remain a "wannabe" and surviving people but then as oft said a cockroach will survive nuclear holocaust.
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
14
Gangadharan need to understand that, whether caste system is a most ideal form of social organisation or not, it represents a crooked mindset. In the land of Ram and home of Mayawati, most of the dalits seem to be as black skinned as coal. Atleast that is what is evident from the look of the people attending the rallies of mayawati. It's really disturbing. Denying a person the right to realise the full capacity of his/her god given faculties, just because his/her skin is of a different colour, is regressive and bigoted. I never understood why that half of humanity that is darker skinned has succumbed to the other half the way it did. It would be healthier for humanity in general, if the darker half realized it's true strength and value. I don't expect the Africans to do any miracles; in which case, it should be us south indians who are the next best thing that is closest to dark skin after the africans.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
13
"A simple redescription of what we think we know about the caste system tells us that it is an autonomous, decentralized, stable, adaptive, dynamic, self-reproducing social organization."

Amen! Caste System has maligned for so long that it is almost impossible to correct the record. But we need to make attempts on that score.

Ganesan
Nj, USA
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
12
The author asks many questions but does not give or even hint at any answers. He says that he is not going to defend the caste system, but there is an undertone of what euphemistically may be called an insufficiency of disapprobation, if not a tinge of endorsement. He says, "the newest trend in anthropology tells us that the notions of "culture" and "cultural differences" are almost of no use in understanding people", suggesting that transcultural studies may not have the same status in this century that they had in the previous two centuries.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
11
Positional notation without the use of zero (using an empty space in tabular arrangements, or the word kha "emptiness") is known to have been in use in India from the 6th century.

The earliest certain use of zero as a decimal positional digit dates to the 9th century. The glyph for the zero digit was written in the shape of a dot, and consequently called bindu ("dot").

The Indian numeral system(base 10) reached Europe in the 11th century, via the Iberian Peninsula through Spanish Muslims the Moors, together with knowledge of astronomy and instruments like the astrolabe, first imported by Gerbert of Aurillac.

So in Europe they came to be known as "Arabic numerals". The Italian mathematician Fibonacci or Leonardo of Pisa was instrumental in bringing the system into European mathematics in 1202.


Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
10
The rules governing the use of zero appeared for the first time in Brahmagupta's book Brahmasputha Siddhanta, written in 628AD. Here Brahmagupta considers not only zero, but negative numbers, and the algebraic rules for the elementary operations of arithmetic with such numbers. In some instances, his rules differ from the modern standard. Here are the rules of Brahamagupta:

1. The sum of zero and a negative number is negative
2. The sum of zero and a positive number is positive
3. The sum of zero and zero is zero.
4. The sum of a positive and a negative is their difference; or, if they are equal, zero
5. A positive or negative number when divided by zero is a fraction with the zero as denominator
6. Zero divided by a negative or positive number is either zero or is expressed as a fraction with zero as numerator and the finite quantity as denominator
7. Zero divided by zero is zero.

In saying zero divided by zero is zero, Brahmagupta differs from the modern position. Mathematicians normally do not assign a value, whereas computers and calculators will sometimes assign NaN, which means "not a number."

Moreover, non-zero positive or negative numbers when divided by zero are either assigned no value, or a value of unsigned infinity, positive infinity, or negative infinity. Once again, these assignments are not numbers, and are associated more with computer science than pure mathematics, where in most contexts no assignment is made.


contd ..
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
9
The oldest known text to use zero is the Jain text from India entitled the Lokavibhaaga, dated 458 AD.[9] it was first introduced to the world centuries later by Al-Khwarizmi, a Persian mathematician, astronomer and geographer. He was the founder of several branches and basic concepts of mathematics. In the words of Philip Hitti, Al Khawarizmi's contribution to mathematics influenced mathematical thought to a greater extent. His work on algebra initiated the subject in a systematic form and also developed it to the extent of giving analytical solutions of linear and quadratic equations, which established him as the founder of Algebra. The very name Algebra has been derived from his famous book Al-Jabr wa-al-Muqabilah.

His arithmetic synthesized Greek and Hindu knowledge and also contained his own contribution of fundamental importance to mathematics and science. Thus, he explained the use of zero, a numeral of fundamental importance developed by the Indians. And 'algorithm' or 'algorizm' is named after him.

The first apparent appearance of a symbol for zero appears in 876 in India on a stone tablet in Gwalior. Documents on copper plates, with the same small o in them, dated back as far as the sixth century AD, abound.

contd ...
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
8
"The word "zero" came via French zéro from Venetian language zero, which (together with "cipher") came via Italian zefiro from Arabic صفر, şafira = "it was empty", şifr = "zero", "nothing", which was used to translate Sanskrit śūnya ( शून्य ), meaning void or empty."

Records show that the ancient Greeks seemed unsure about the status of zero as a number: they asked themselves "How can nothing be something?", leading to interesting philosophical and, by the Medieval period, religious arguments about the nature and existence of zero and the vacuum. The paradoxes of Zeno of Elea depend in large part on the uncertain interpretation of zero.

Early use of something like zero by the Indian scholar Pingala (circa 5th-2nd century BC), implied at first glance by his use of binary numbers, is only the modern binary representation using 0 and 1 applied to Pingala's binary system, which used short and long syllables (the latter equal in length to two short syllables), making it similar to Morse code and modern computer chip technolgy.

In 498 AD, Indian mathematician and astronomer Aryabhata stated that "Sthanam sthanam dasa gunam" or place to place in ten times in value, which may be the origin of the modern decimal based place value notation.

contd ...
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
7
It is not only Westerners who have argued that the caste system is inhuman - Westerners who, according to this pompous drivelling fraud Gnaghadhran, can't really know "his" precious India (though what did his dirty Brahminist tribe contribute to India? It was a British invention, like bully beef.)

No, it wasn't only Westerners who thought the caste system evil - so did Dr Bhimrao Ramji Ambedkar. Babasaheb Ambedkar called Hinduism "a chamber of horrors for the low castes".

Are you saying AMBEDKAR also could not know what the caste system was?

These smartass Brahminists are always full of their own self-perceived cleverness and dirty jackal-like cunning. They are cowards who think they can get their contemptible way by crooked cunning arguments. But they always land on their own ghee-fed arses because their convoluted arguments are so easy to dispose of.....!

You callous, cretinous, swindling buffoon !
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
6
The British learned plenty from India.

Words like pyjama, cummerbund, calico, punch (drink), chapati, curry, caste, loot, jungle, bandana, all came from Indian languages into English. So did bungalow and verandah.

The British picked up some dishes like chicken korma from the Indians, also biriani. They had much more to learn from Muslims than Hindus, to be sure.

So Ganghadharan can go away satisfied. You contributed chicken korma and looting and jungle to civilization. Be satisfied, you Brahminist fartbag.

The British were wise enough not to pick up caste from the Indians, or the deadly theory of karma. Wise fellows, indeed !

The Brahminists like to claim they contributed the idea of the zero but serious scholars say it is either Chinese or Arab.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
5
Well, the Belgians have at least offered this nauseating windbag a fine career in spouting his meaningless drivel. Well done, Ganghadhran. Another Brahminist parasite.

The utter brain-dead stupidity of this clown (I cannot use the language I want to use, really) is shown by his pompous assumption that there are several civilizations in the world now.

There is only one universal civilization now, and the Hindus have long made whatever contribution they could to it - though so-called "Hindu" mathematics is said to be really Arab or Chinese. Just as other "Hindu" ideas came from the Middle East.

There is only Western civilization now. In its book the Chinese and the Arabs will get a chapter each. The Hindus will get a one-line footnote.

Ganghadharan makes a virtue out of the moronic Brahminist vagueness about everything, including the caste system. You can't condemn it because you can't know what it is, he brags, like every rapist or murderer who says, "What is rape? Define murder !". It is the classic device of the criminal, and widely used by Isalmist thugs, too, who say non-Muslims know nothing about Islam and cannot therefore criticise it.

But every Dalit who approaches a Brahminist backdoor knows what your shitty caste system is. No huge books are needed for that.

Another example of Brahminist farting bragging.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
4
When Europe learns it does not have enough latrines it will come to India to learn how to live without them. Roadside shitting is a great art and Indians can teach it to all.
Bambul Zigrabnath
Long Beach, United States
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
3
"The simple answer to what the World (not just Europe) can learn from India- is Sanatana Dharma. Vivekananda and Aurobindo announced it a 100 years back and Osho ( all other religions would have executed him!) showed it in his own inimitable way.

The semitic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, that have influenced Europe are nothing but hate cults. Atheism, communism and agnosticism are mere negative reactions- all, again leading to dead ends. When Europe understands it has a spiritual vaccum, it will come humbly , to learn at the feet of India."

Excellently put Radesh Rangrajan ... Europeans/Americans/Japanese are already coming at India's feet to learn ... the Arabs and the Chinese learned a lot in last 2/3 thousand years ... but they wouldn't admit it ..
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
2
Mr. Balagangadhara has clubbed together last 2000 years of European history into one time section. This is not what it was. After the old Greece and Roman empires, Europe was struggling for about thousand years to form nations and civilizations under christianity. Only during last 600 years they developed into powerful civilizations after renaissance period. In those 1000 years of Europe's struggle, Indian, Arabian and other Asian civilizations contributed a lot to the human development. Scientific development is actually a relay race. But this fact is never felt by we Indians, who are conditioned by European way of looking at the world.
R. Srivatsan
Newport News, USA
Jul 06, 2007 12:00 AM
1
Rational, intelligent and superficial - that is the progression of Balagangadhara's article. On the one hand, he is intelligent enough to grasp that there must be something phenomenal in the Religion and Culture of India that has led to such a stable foundation ( the caste system). On the other he is brainwashed by his long stay in Europe to dwell on their past glory, forgetting their present fallen state.
The simple answer to what the World (not just Europe) can learn from India- is Sanatana Dharma. Vivekananda and Aurobindo announced it a 100 years back and Osho ( all other religions would have executed him!) showed it in his own inimitable way.

The semitic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, that have influenced Europe are nothing but hate cults. Atheism, communism and agnosticism are mere negative reactions- all, again leading to dead ends. When Europe understands it has a spiritual vaccum, it will come humbly , to learn at the feet of India.
radesh rangarajan
chennai, India
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