Tribhuvan Tiwari
opinion
St Stephen's: Murder In The Cathedral?
Narrow religiosity is contorting the grand ethos of a capital college
Somewhere in India, there is a virtual graveyard of once great educational institutions destroyed by the petty vanities of men. The corpses it contains come from all over the country, and bear identities that are secular as well as denominational. Among the residents of this kabristan are the Isabella Thoburn College, Lucknow; Elphinstone College, Mumbai; Queen Mary's College, Chennai; Presidency College, Calcutta; Patna College; the Aligarh Muslim University; and the Banaras Hindu University.

The keeper of this graveyard might soon receive a new body, whose name (and fame) dwarfs all the others.
 
 
St Stephen's, which has stood for catholicity, is in danger of being captured by a group of insular Christians.
 
 
This is St Stephen's College, Delhi. That the applicant has been ailing has been known for some time. Hope lingered that its illness might be reversed. However, news has just come in that the college authorities plan to inject a poison that would, in effect, kill off the patient. When that happens, the corpse would command the largest tombstone in what is already a well-populated graveyard.

St Stephen's College was founded in 1881 by a band of priests from Cambridge. For the first few decades of its existence, it was not much more than a mofussil college. Then, in 1911, the British decided to shift the capital of India to Delhi. Now the influence of the college grew, and grew. In the years after Independence, it came to be primus inter pares among the colleges of the University of Delhi, itself India's first truly national university.

I speak as a Stephanian, but even the unprejudiced historian can make the case that this college has contributed as much as any other to the making of independent India. From its ranks have come many of our finest public servants, academics, writers and artists. From a list that can run into the hundreds, a few contemporary names must suffice: Shiv Shankar Menon, Montek Singh Ahluwalia, Barkha Dutt, Kaushik Basu, Ketan Mehta, I. Allan Sealy and Amitav Ghosh.

There remains the feeling that this is an elitist college. The impression persists because St Stephen's has also produced hundreds of snobs and bores, who flaunt the fact that they once studied there. However, the tag of elitism can be repudiated by the names of the remarkable social workers who have passed through the college. Among the Stephanians who have lived their lives for and with the poor of India are (the late) Jugnu Ramaswamy, Mihir Shah, Rukmini (Rinki) Banerji and Sanjit (Bunker) Roy.

We know what these Stephanians have given the nation, but what did St Stephen's give them? Khushwant Singh, who studied in the college in the 1930s, says he learnt there that "parts of the Bible were great literature". He adds that "another thing that St Stephen's gave me was a consciousness of what is right and what is wrong". This didn't "come through sermons on morality, it was there in the atmosphere that pervaded the campus: you imbibed it, like inhaling fresh air".

When I studied in St Stephen's 40 years later, the air one inhaled was still fresh. The nicest thing about the college was that family background did not matter a whit. Here your father's profession or income was completely irrelevant; so also was your religion or mother tongue. What counted was how good you were at what counted: whether bowling a leg-break, delivering a speech, playing the guitar or mimicking a film star. Since these virtues spread themselves out over the population, and since each had its own special constituency, there were few Stephanians who felt left out.

An attractive feature of St Stephen's was that it was genuinely all-Indian. It had large contingents from Bihar and Rajasthan, who unselfconsciously spoke Hindi among themselves and to the rest of us. There were many students from the Northeast, and numerous South Indians. The staff was similarly diverse: my own teachers included a Bengali, a Tamil, a Haryanvi Jat and a Delhi Kayastha. I studied economics; meanwhile, the history department was run by three stalwarts named Mohammad Amin, David Baker and Prem Sagar Dwivedi. This capacious catholicism marked out the college from its rivals: after all, Presidency College in Calcutta was basically for Bengalis, the Madras Christian College basically for Madrasis and, at a pinch, Malayalis.

This was, in theory, a Christian institution, but in practice its Christianity was understated. The two men who made St Stephen's what it was were the first Indian principal, S.K. Rudra, and his English associate, C.F. Andrews. Both were close friends of Mahatma Gandhi. Their tolerant and broad-minded version of Christianity seemed to blur into the benign Hindu traditions of bhakti. Love, service, charity, understanding-- these were the guiding principles of the faith of the two, and of the men who followed them.

Stephanian Christianity, if such a term can be coined, was a moral universe in which the specificities of one particular religion were rendered irrelevant. As with Gandhi's own ecumenical philosophy, this was a creed that, among its very many diverse followers, attracted an entirely voluntary adherence.

Faith and ethnic origin were irrelevant to being a Stephanian. That was its peculiar charm, and also its greatest asset. The 'morality' that Khushwant Singh and others imbibed at St Stephen's taught them to treat every human being as unique, as an individual to be dealt with on his or her terms. This, in a country so divided by the politics of identity, was hard to preach and harder to practise. That a measure of success was achieved is tribute to the visionaries who nurtured the college.

For most of its history, the governing ethos of St Stephen's was liberal, plural, cosmopolitan-- in a word, Indian. However, in the early 1990s, the Supreme Court permitted 'minority' institutions to allot up to 50 per cent of their seats on the basis of faith. Immediately, the pressure grew on St Stephen's to increase the number of Christian students. Slowly, the Christian intake began to grow.

Although the college keeps these figures secret, it is estimated that at present some 25 per cent of the student body is Christian. These students enter the college with a poorer school-leaving record than their peers. (The gap varies from course to course�it is higher in prized subjects like economics, and lower in subjects with fewer takers, such as chemistry.) Last week, it was announced that the creeping Christianisation of St Stephen's will be made a galloping one. Forty per cent of all seats are to be reserved for Christians; another 20 per cent for other special categories, such as sportsmen, the handicapped, and Scheduled Castes. To this shall be added the seats in the gift of the principal, ranking members of the Church, and (this being Delhi) senior bureaucrats and ministers. If the proposal goes through, three seats out of four will be filled on strictly 'non-academic' grounds.

The principal reason behind this move is the defeat of Christian ecumenism by Christian evangelism. Those who run the Church of North India today are far removed from the faith of the founders of St Stephen's. These new Christians seek not understanding and truth, but political mileage and economic gain. In the real sense of the word, they aren't 'Christian' at all-- in the same way as Narendra Modi is not 'Hindu' and Osama bin Laden not 'Muslim'.

St Stephen's has stood for a catholic and truly Indian Christianity. Now, the college is in danger of being captured by a group of Christians who are insular and narrow-minded. These power-brokers seek to usurp a highly valued brand, a brand deepened and developed by other people using altogether different (and more noble) methods. Once the student body has been made the property of a particular religion, pressures to remake the faculty in the same image will follow. At risk then would be St Stephen's reputation for intellectual excellence as well as its cosmopolitan character. Mediocrity and its even uglier cousin, parochialism, will rule.

It is important to note here that while St Stephen's was founded by Christians, it is funded by the state. According to the Union ministry of education, fully 95 per cent of the expenses of the college are met by the University Grants Commission. Why should a college that draws so heavily on the public exchequer be allowed to choose 40 per cent of its students from 2 per cent of the country's population? The new policies are claimed by their proponents to be 'legal', but they are surely unethical. They are also profoundly unhistorical, based on a wilful ignorance of the traditions and legacy of St Stephen's College.

Great institutions are difficult to conceive of and even more difficult to build. But they are comparatively easy to destroy. The affection and admiration that St Stephen's now commands is the product of decades of patient, selfless work by hundreds of teachers and students: Christian and non-Christian, rich, poor and middle class, North Indian and South Indian and East Indian. And yet, the cumulative labours of these very many people over very many years can be undone by the shortsightedness of a few men, and within a day--that is, in the time it takes to formulate a new admission policy and get it passed. If its present administrators have their way, St Stephen's will soon become a corrupt Christian version of a Hindu shakha or a Muslim madrassa.




(Ramachandra Guha is the author of India After Gandhi. He was a student at St Stephen's from 1974 to 1979.)
 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Jul 10, 2007 12:00 AM
128
This is an excellent article. Very well written and very informative.

I also studied Economics at St Stephen's College from 1982 to 1985 and my Father studied Mathematics in 1954-55. We are both disappointed that the "BEST" college East of the Suez Canal is being slowly destroyed by this narrow minded concept called "reservation".

When I was in St Stephen's College, there were quotas for minorities, sports persons and for the under privileged. However, merit played the single most important role in the admissions process and no matter whose son or daughter one was, you were not above the law.

St Stephen's College was a great institution because of its discipline, the quality of its teachers and its students. If these pillars of the college are undermined through the dilution of admissions criteria due to reservations, then a great Indian institution will be doomed.

Politics has taken its toll on many Indian institutions. Some have been spared so far. the IITs, the IIMs, St Stephen's College, the Indian Armed Forces are some of the top notch Indian institutions that have weathered the ebb and flow of Indian politics. However, we seem to be destined towards a slow but steady erosion of the best of our country because of caste based and religion based politics that has become the hallmark of the Indian political landscape. When the elections in UP are fought almost entirely on the basis of casteism and petty politics, then we as a nation are hurtling towards a real mess.

Indians need to wake up and take a principled stand against what is going on in the name of "reservations". We have to be ONE NATION not a mosaic of castes and religions. UNITED WE STAND and DIVIDED WE SHALL FAIL.

Finally, there is a need for a new political system in the country where governments are not held hostage to petty politics based upon religion and caste. Instead we need politics that is based upon IMPORTANT ISSUES and PRINCIPLES.

JAI HIND
Rajat Bhatia
Delray Beach, United States
Jun 23, 2007 12:00 AM
127
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Regarding Mian Faruki,s stinging replies, its a case of a stuck record, which says the same all the time.

You should look at your own posts. For the past three years it is nothing but Muslims this and Muslims that. You are totally possessed by your obsession. How can you live with yourself? How can anyone live with you?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 23, 2007 12:00 AM
126
-""Now I am of.

Off to the races- with blonde girls with big bossoms and laces ""

BABA JI

YOG SE BHOG TAK !
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jun 23, 2007 12:00 AM
125
Ash/Tarun/Mall/Minu,

Since your posts are sheer rubbish, I shall not bother to reply to them. But I will take this opportunity to say that you are the most vicious, slimy and malicious creature that ever came out of the gutter. You shame India and you shame the Hindu community. If you think you enjoy wide support in this forum, other than from the two bigots who post here, you are truly deluded. My abhorrence of you has nothing to do with your being a Hindu. I would have detested you even if you had been a Muslim. There is just no body in this forum who comes even close to you in vileness. Now you can resume spewing your venom as profusely as you like. I shall try my level best to refrain from responding.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 23, 2007 12:00 AM
124
GF to GR

//All you are doing is boring me and perhaps several others to death.

lOOK WHO IS TALKING.tHE MOST DESPISED person on this forum,who only has the expected support of islamist brothers and traitors with Hindu names.

In other words support of enemies of India just like him.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 23, 2007 12:00 AM
123
Faruk to GR

gr>> One Faruki is enough in this forum.

gf//Translation : Faruki is one of those that the Ku Klux Klan once called "uppity negros"!

Reply
It is the muslims who are KKK.My black friends are outraged by this Faruki asshole using their history to score political points in favor of his racist islamic tribe that believes non muslims are inferior/impure.


Do not compare yourself to blacks, who do not dare communal riots(except a handful), godhra train,elimination of non blacks in their countries
unlike the muslims who eliminate them eg Pakistan,BD and kashmir.

Further blacks were slaves unlike muslims who ruled and did not divide the USA like you guys in India and shamelessly stayed behind over 1/2 m deaths.

And identify with palestine and saddam more than India.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 23, 2007 12:00 AM
122

Faruk to Ganpat

//Ganpat/Bagai,

>> The fight between Hamas and Fatah show that there is something the matter with them.

When a people are driven out of their homes, beaten and humiliated, when even their electoral victories are ignored and when divisive tactics are used such as buttering up those willing to take any deal, a situation is created where brother kills brother. That would however be beyond your ken.

GHULAM Y FARUKI
NEW YORK UNITED STATES

Reply

Faruk never says this about hindus in pakistan and kashmir and bdesh,who are his ethnic kin.

But he would side with muslims in arabia.And this traitor pretends to be indian

In fact if nonmuslims turn aggressive against muslims like they do here, he comes up with the usual double standards and calls them subjective nonsense epithets like hateful,bigot,fascissts sanghis etc.

What an evil,low form of life.Migrate to an islamic country,u traitor.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 23, 2007 12:00 AM
121
Parbat,

>> As for my professional background. Simple enough.

Hilarious!

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 22, 2007 12:00 AM
120
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Recently I have quoted from several serious authors who believe that Islam and the muslim community is heading for even harder times.

You have been writing this same empty-headed post using different words again and again and again for over three years. You are stupid enough to actually believe that these authors are supporting your ugly vision of the future of Islam. All you are doing is boring me and perhaps several others to death.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 22, 2007 12:00 AM
119
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Dureing the last many years many lots of people have been displaced.

Is that an argument for displaced persons having to accept their lot? Some give up, others fight. Who knows who is right?

>> Remember few muslims sided with Kuwait when it was taken over by Sadaam.

The majority of Arab governments sided with Kuwait, even though Kuwait was once a province of Iraq.

>> One Faruki is enough in this forum.

Translation : Faruki is one of those that the Ku Klux Klan once called "uppity negros"!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 22, 2007 12:00 AM
118
Ganpat Baba:

Many thanks for your letter.

I must say one thing for you: you have a wonderful sense of humour and combine this with delightful burst of bearish aggression. The combination is highly diverting. I delight in your endless fight with Faruki, and laugh no end at Faruki's short stinging replies....

As for my professional background. Simple enough.

My family comes from India, Punjab side. I was educted at St Stephens. We emigrated as all good Hindus must to Leicester in England. There I quailfied as a chemical engineer, studying at Leicester University.

At Leicester I met a Danish woman and married her. I worked for a while with Exxon as an engineer but had plenty of gripes about how they did not allow people to make good. Eventually I resigned and went to Denmark with my wife and set up an investment fund which has sometimes been successful, sometimes it gets me into deep shit.

When the company is not doing too well I spend my time writing these delightful messages.

However, the toruble was Ghulam Faruki. He and I started an endless duel, and when I was too frank he got me kicked out of the site. I ahd to emigrate to Deraa Ismail Khan in Pakistan in search of a freer atmosphere. But even that liberal place got too restrictive thanks to Faruki's protests to Outlook Management, and I am now in Haridwar.

That's a brief history of me. I am right next door and will be dropping in with my hippo General Amin for a dram of whisky with Swamijee and Panditjee.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jun 22, 2007 12:00 AM
117
Also my dear friend Parbat,

Have you ever read the Kama Sutra for you to pass a comment on it's allegedly perverse content? If you are going to go by sculptures and one written text without even going into details of what they signify, you equate Hinduism to a form of pastoral perversion?

The Kama Sutra like many other texts of it's times was way ahead and it opened up the art of procreation to a lot of close minded people. It taught us the little tricks of the trade to maxmize pleasure at the same time minimize any side effects. It's a masterful meeting of science and philosophy that is unmatched in it's expertise. Atleast, the Hindu culture can boast of a text that did opened up a lot of myths about procreation. I am sure in your culture you believe that children are god's gifts that pop out of cabbages?
vijay shankar
Bangalore, India
Jun 22, 2007 12:00 AM
116
Good post Vijay SHANKAR against this clown called parbat.

I also wanted to make the same point about nude goddesses v nude nongodesses.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 22, 2007 12:00 AM
115
Dear Parbat,

I repeat, it's shameful that you still post in this place, passages full of half baked knowledge and zero truth. Can you please tell me one place in India where Hindu goddesses are depicted in the nude other than Maqbool Fida Hussain's paintings? If you are referring to erotic pieces of architecture found outside certain Hindu temples such as the ones in Khajuraho then they are not of Hindu godesses but of ordinary men and women. Those sculptures are present outside the temple and NOT in the sanctum sanctorum. Their depiction outside had the significance that people who wanted to be attain spirituality had to leave behind those feelings of material desire as exemplified by those sculptures. If you do not know your facts, please dont make statements.

For people like you, I have nothing but pity as the world gets enlighened, people like you are always in the dark
vijay shankar
Bangalore, India
Jun 21, 2007 12:00 AM
114
Ganpat Baba:

What is your position on the naked godesses? I assume you favour them as I do?

Tarun is angry, but what does he want? To have no-naked godesses? That would be very boring. It would make Hinduism as boring as Islam.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jun 21, 2007 12:00 AM
113
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> Dont be under the delusion that there is a majority which symapthises with your views.

The majority of Brits are against Islamist fanatics, just as I am. They are also against hateful bigots like you, just as I am.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 21, 2007 12:00 AM
112
TARUN:

What you completely overlook is that it is hardly a Muslim tradition to depict Mohammed or Kadija naked.

On the other hand, it is a Hindu custom to depict naked Hindu gods and goddesses. A fine custom, may I say.

So why all the hullaballoo? You cannot blame artists like M F Husain. His is purely Hindu art.

Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jun 21, 2007 12:00 AM
111

Tarun wrote
//What you missed was: In Ahmedabad, Muslims came out with Bin Laden Phto, attire after that.

Yes I missed that.Now I remember feeling outraged but was not at all surprised.I in fact have got to know muslim behaviour too well over last several yrs.Just like u,ganpat,etc etc.Except
ISI traitors with Hindu names on this forum.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 21, 2007 12:00 AM
110
GR// Its absolute hypocracy that we should pay for these guys. And its a shame that they accept this money, whilst abuseing us
kaffirs all the time. Specially valid for Kashmiri muslims.

rEply

Abs.the same is happening in Kashmir where money was poured and yet the muslims are perpetually
in victimhood.Ditto in Indian ghettos and mosques.

These psecular rulers of the past have betrayed India,big time.They had a golden chance in 47 and even the logic of partition was not followed over 1/2 m deaths.

Instaed they left the muslim nuisance menace and drag for the future generations to bear.While statues were built to these traitors by chamchas and fools,and congress propaganda.


ash
san diego, United States
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
109
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> You do not own OL, and are in no position to tell what people should or can write.

I never did, but someone as stupid as yourself would read in my posts whatever your abominable mentality dictates. I said that your posts are stupid, obnoxious and repetitive. I did not say you should not write them. You are perfectly free to make a fool of yourself. However when you ask me questions, it takes time to answer them. I shall however ignore those questions that are designed just to keep your ludicrous agenda alive.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
108
Ganpat Baba:

"No bright student would opt to study at St Stephens", you say.

Is this why you opted to study there?
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
107
Elitists posing as anti-elitists are always good for a laugh. And Guha doesn’t disappoint. He claims the “Christian” label of St. Stephens is in name only. Instead, the secret of its reputation lies in a fuzzy ecumenical version with empty nostrums like “…love, service, charity….”

Specifically, he claims St. Stephen’s Christianity managed to construct a “moral universe” apart from its “specificities.” Sensing a danger to that, its latin-wielding alumnus charges in to rescue his alma mater lest the “primus inter patres” ends up in a graveyard.

Guha says St. Stephen’s proposed change to admissions defeats a Christian ecumenism by a Christian evangelism. How is teaching Economics or Chemistry to a class that is half Christian different than one full of Parsis? Chemistry will remain boring. Only those condemned to hear soporific lectures may change.

Suppose his slippery slope argument is valid and assume that even the faculty might also become predominantly Christian. Consequently, Economics and Chemistry will be taught by boring Christians instead of boring non-Christians. And the problem is…..?

Moreover, the profile of the students is less important than the animating principles of the college. Otherwise, other colleges would have easily replicated St. Stephen’s success by the same not-so-secret formula. Since they haven’t and can’t, Guha's explanation begs the question.

So, what exactly animates St. Stephens? Go back to his claim that specificities of Christianity were rendered irrelevant. In reality, the “specificities” is precisely where the “fresh air” of “every-human-being-as-unique” comes from. In fact, the air is even fresher than his claims. Humans are uniquely valuable created in God’s image. The ideas that Guha inhaled at St. Stephens did not come from fortune cookies or cereal boxes or even an ecumenical religion. They come from the “specificities” of Christianity.

If the “governing ethos of St. Stephen’s was liberal, plural, cosmopolitan—in a word, Indian,” then for some strange reason this same ethos has missed all other institutions in India. Furthermore, he says St. Stephens' reputation is the work of “Christian and non-Christian, rich, poor and middle class, North Indian and South Indian and East Indian.” But every other college has exactly the same ingredients. Why is their cooking so mediocre?

A simple change in admissions policy morphs the powers-that-be in the Church of North India into Christian equivalent of Osama Bin Ladens? The logic must be that St. Stephens will propagandize unemployable Christians into hijacking institutions fully laden with combustible jet fuel of “every human is unique (thus valuable)” and martyr themselves by crashing into the twin towers of injustice and prejudice for the proverbial 72 bowls of rice. We better stop it now!
Sundari
Chennai, India
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
106
TARUN GHOSH:

What's the problem with missionaries?

At least they have compassion and comradely feelings for Dalits. Upper Castes don't.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
105
Mall,

I will try to flesh out the possibility and threat of IRI a little later.

But the central issue is the exponential relentless groth in muslim population and bangladeshi illegals protected by votebanks psecular politicians.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
104
Jogi//Note the Irony of muslim journalsits , who preach secularism to the rest of the world having an asociation of muslim journalists ! )

Good point almost missed that in the other irony,journalists being against the freedom of speech of a lietratur like Rushdie.But what really outrages is that I am sure if this was freedom to paint hidnu goddessse or movie like water or fire,all these muslim scribes would be piously pontificating to the Hindus.

I am not surprised.I knew yrs ago that the minority scribees are hypocrites.The Hindu scribes join them in bashing Hindus.Which shows how hinduism-tolerance is resulting in disrespect and inferiority complex adn humiliation.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
103
See our Hindu psecular journalists always lecturing hindus about freedom of expression.
First let Vinod mehta and gayatri and arunali menon lecture these guys.Unfortunately because of muslims and the doublestandards of these turdheads like Vinod mehta, everyone is becoming retrogressive including the tolerant liberal hindus.lecturing one student and
favoring the other bad student,makes both students bad.Because the bad one refuses to reform
and worse the psecular teacher ignores his bad behaviour and even favors and covers up for him.Then the good student, also says go to hell.
I am only getting punished and disrespected for my better behaviour.Psecular turds like Vinod mehta scum are to blame. Read on.Scribes should apprecaite freedom but not when they are muslim.Like hypocrite faruki here.

RUSHIDE-JOURNALISTS -MES5- PRINT EMAIL
Muslim scribes ask Britain to withdraw knighthood for Rushdie


Chennai, Jun 20 (PTI): Opposing the knighthood of writer Salman Rushdie, a forum of Muslim journalists today asked the British Government to withdraw it.
In a memorandum to Prime Minister Tony Blair, handed over to the British Deputy High Commission here, the All India Forum of Muslim Journalists warned that if the Knighthood was not withdrawn the British government would be responsible for consequences arising out of the honour bestowed on Rushdie.

The forum expressed the hope that the British government would graciously make amends by withdrawing the knighthood 'in deference to the wounded sentiments of Muslims worldwide' and not turn a deaf ear to the pleas and protests of Muslims.

A copy of the memorandum was made available to the press.


ash
san diego, United States
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
102
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
101
FARUK/OSAMA/AFZAL writes

Loose-tongued bigots in this forum like Ash/Tarun/Mall/Minu, Ganpat/Bagai, or Sariputra/Bodepudi take all kinds of liberties with truth, but I hope their numbers do not increase!

Reply

Why dont you just assume everyone is one person?
Like you do with 4 ids sometimes.That way you will never have to worry about the numbers increasing.It will always be restricted to one.

And maybe then you will start worrying about the
harmful consequences of islam.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
100
Ghai,

Thanks for the post. I have the utmost respect for Guru Nanak. My concern has been with the modern day exaggerators and revisionists who doctor history to suit their agenda.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
99
Vijay Shankar,

>> misinformed people like you want you to know that Islam came to India as a salvation from the horrors of Hinduism and that essentially Hindusim was a curse on India that had to be shown it's place in the dustbins of history. Unfortunately you are a product of that school.

None of the above is true. If you can post such a lie, how is any dialogue possible? You must cite my statements that led you to make the above assertion. And you should be less rash in making allegations that will not stand up to scrutiny. Loose-tongued bigots in this forum like Ash/Tarun/Mall/Minu, Ganpat/Bagai, or Sariputra/Bodepudi take all kinds of liberties with truth, but I hope their numbers do not increase!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
98
Faruk/afzal/osama

//I would never attribute your brainlessness to your religion.

How can you?My religion is not islam.I have never had to pawn bmy brains to the mullahs like you.

I am free to not pray,criticize,evolve new opinions,etc unlike your kind.That is why Hindus are doing far better than muslims in the UK.

This is as controlled a cause-effect experiment
as possible.the other being the comparison between India and Pakistan/bangladesh.

No wonder uk Hindus,(even sikhs and christians) do not want to be lumped with subcontinent muslims under the label of south asians.

I challenge you to reply without your usual wriggle-out inane exit strategies.Which can as well be copied and pasted from a kindergarten kid's manual on how to have the last word in a face-off with any another kid in some childish spat.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
97
Ash/Tarun/Mall/Minu,

>> I said to Bagai, "You continue to come up with all kinds of stupid arguments to support your scenario of doom and gloom. Don't you have anything better to do?"

To which you, the idiot, reply, " puerile,churlish exit line."

Does your stupid hate-filled head have any idea that the question asked was juvenile and vacuous, and deserved the answer it got. I have never met a more obnoxious person than yourself.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
96
nd certainly Mr. Faruki I am not proud of any ruler who was a biogt. Example of which include, Aurangzeb, some of the Portugeuse in the Inquisition of Goa and others
vijay shankar
Bangalore, India
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
95
Dear Ghulam Farukhi,

When I meant, Indians should be proud of their history which had many religious and cultural influences I did not mean to either downgrade the Islamic history of India or upgrade the Hindu part of it. I only meant, if you are born in India and of Indian parents, then you are obviously of Hindu descent. The trouble is the mullahs aided by the marxists and of course misinformed people like you want you to know that Islam came to India as a salvation from the horrors of Hinduism and that essentially Hindusim was a curse on India that had to be shown it's place in the dustbins of history. Unfortunately you are a product of that school. We Indians are proud of whatever our history had to offer including the Islamic Period. If you are a proud Indian, say it out that you are a proud Indian Muslim of Hindu descent and you are practicing a religion of your choice because your country, India is secular, and mind you India is not secular because of the word being inserted in the preamble of the constitution but because 80% of it's population is Hindu. And by Hindu i mean, people following the Hindu way of life where Sarva Dharma Sambhav or respect of an individual's choice of worship is paramount.
vijay shankar
Bangalore, India
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
94
""As for your ‘not proven’ comment…if the historians chose to ignore Guru Nanak’s account of mughal atrocities, who was a contemporary, what can one say about them? ""


Faruki \ Kiran ji

Rev.Guru NANK SAHIB has given an eye witness account of the atrocities commited by Babar in Sailkot and in other cities of the Punjab. Pattan's destruction Guru Ji sang as an Hymn adrresed to Lalo.The account and details of the destruction so carried are heart rendering.

It is stated by the Guru Nank Sahib himself so unquestionable one.

Kiran rightly says such accounts have not been found favour by post indepenence Historians.

BABR VANI is part of HOLY GRANTH SAHIB.

READ the text :

"Guru Nanak, the founder, was a contemporary of five monarchs—Bahlul Lodi (1469-89), Sikandar Lodi (1489-1517) and Ibrahim Lodi (1517-1526) and Mughal rulers—Babur (1526-1530) and Humayun (1530-1539). But Guru Nanak does not mention the name of any of these rulers except Babur while attacking their unrighteous policies. Whenever he points out or criticises some policy he attributes it to the general term ‘ruler’.

The most important event that took place during the days of Guru Nanak was the invasions of Babur and subsequent establishment of Mughal rule in India. In Guru Nanak’s reaction to the political events of his time Babur’s invasion of India figures prominently. His compositions pointing to this event are known as Babar-Vani. ‘In 1520 AD Babur crossed river Chenab and occupied Sialkot without much resistance. Then he marched on Sayyidpur (Eminabad) which was taken by assault and put to the sword3.

Guru Nanak reacted against the atrocities committed by the armies of Babur. He condemned excesses committed by his soldiers. Guru Nanak says while addressing Lalo:

Bringing a bridal procession of sin (Babur) hath hasted from Kabul and demandeth wealth as his bride, O Lalo.

Modesty and Religion have vanished;

falsehood marcheth in the van, O Lalo.

The occupation of the Qazis and the Brahmans is gone;

the devil readeth the marriage service, O Lalo.

Musalman women read the Quran, and

in suffering call upon God, O Lalo.

Hindu women whether of high or low caste,

meet the same fate as they, O Lalo.

They sing the paean of murder, O Nanak,

and smear them­selves with the saffron of blood.

Nanak singeth the praises of the Lord in the city of corpses,

and uttereth this commonplace. A.G., p. 722

In the Babar Vani Guru Nanak gives a vivid description of the havoc brought by the armies of invaders led by Babur and describes how the soldiers dishonoured the innocent women. Further while the Guru made a scathing attack on Babur and his army of sinners but in keeping with the higher spiritual values he believed that everything happened accord­ing to Lord’s will.

The Guru was equally opposed to the idea of either the invaders imposing their culture on the subjugated populace or the people copying the culture of the ruling elite. With the advent of Muslim rule the Hindu culture started acquiring the Islamic tinge because of the pressures of the ruling elite. To quote Guru Nanak:

Now that the turn of Sheikhs has come,

the Primal Lard is called Allah

And the (Hindu) gods and temples have been taxed:

such is the current way

The ablution pot, the prayer, the prayer-mat,

the call to prayer, have all assumed the Muslim garb

even God is now robed in blue (like the Muslims did)

And men have changed their tongue and the Muslim way

of greetings prevails. A.G., p. 1191"'
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
93
Ash/Tarun/Mall/Minu,

>> The background does not make much difference when the mullahs grab you at birth and pawn your brains.

I would never attribute your brainlessness to your religion. One has to be from the gutter in order to make such vicious remarks. And Ash is still pretending to talk to Tarun, when the two are one and the same person, making you a liar and a deceiver as well.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
92
Parbat Laldeng's Post:

Now I hear you were "educated" at St Stephens, I see that it can be only a very good school for clowns. You were certainly one of its most successful products.

I wouldn't dream of asking you to stop writing here because reading your inimitable misspelt posts is a great source of laughter.


Dear Parbat,

It would be great, if you stopped advising people on whether their posts are misspelt or not and concentrate on what you are saying because as the post indicates above, you havent done your English Homework either.

Secondly, yourself, V T Rajashekhar, Kancha Ilaiah, Udit Raj and co all belong to a set who's raison d'etre is hatred of the brahmins. Even if an earth quake happens in India, you will blame it on the Brahmins. That's your logic. Even Romilla Thapar has dismissed your ilk's views as fringe and extemist and grossly false. Oh Parbat, you and your ilk claim to be the aboriginal population of India that was subjugated by the so called superior Aryans, who were mainly Brahmins. Hahaha, you guys surely live in a world only you can enter. We should preserve people like you in the museum as you are a great example of the opposite of scholarly research and facts. Please tell fellow african americans that you are now part of their fraternity!! Way to go!
vijay shankar
Bangalore, India
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
91
Faruk//You continue to come up with all kinds of stupid arguments to support your scenario of doom and gloom. Don't you have anything better to do?


The usual Faruki puerile,churlish exit line with no substance of facts or rebuttal.And this guy tells others to shut up, if they have nothing to say while he shamelessly does the same here continually when he is beaten.Like a 5 yr old trying to have the last word.

Just like his coreligionists who preach liberal values to others when in minority and abolish them when they are in majority.

What a creature!

ash
san diego, United States
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
90

tarun to Faruk
Hey, Farukhi: what's your back ground?

I mean, which area of India you are from, and which schools/colleges you studied?

Just a broad idea will help us understand your mental setup.

I think you have hardly lived in non-Urban areas outside Hindi heartland.
TARUN GHOSH

my take

The background does not make much difference when the mullahs grab you at birth and pawn your brains.

Everything else that follows is a veneer and superficial and cannot undo the uncoscious mullah indoctrination in early years.

De facto,Farukis views agree with mullahs just like most other muslims,educated or otherwise.

Being English literate he does verbal gymnastics when cornered on this forum.But basically his positions are consistent
with the 7th century mullah guidance.

Both hate US foreign policy and BJP and look the other way and deny any faults in islam using various stratagems like denial,excuses and pointing fingers at otherswhen the first two fail.

Contrast with hindus who have differing positions
and hence there can be an evloving reasoning and debate.No wonder javed akhtar,shabana,akbar,naqvi,mustafa are never heard on rushdie and tasleema and if they do so it will be a belated reluctant tokenism under criticism about their double standards
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
89
Ash/Tarun/Mall/Minu,

>> Faruki has no sharam.He has less sharam than a mule.

How do you know how much sharam a mule has? I know you have a mule's brains, but I have never compared your shamelessness to that of any animals. It would not be fair to animals.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
88
Tarun to Faruk//What will be your reaction if Muhamud is drawn naked with semen dripping from his pennis and accumulating into a trash bag below? I mean, replace Jesus with Muhamud

Reply

Tarun,Maybe you know this.But Muhammed nudes were sketched at the same university,but media covered it up and the violent muslim reaction in which a photographer was hospitalized.As usuAl

Olook did not match its 6 articles in one week, importance of freedom of expression argument,when muhammed nudes were sketched.O articles was its fitting response.Hindus did not hospitalize anyone
but protested peacefully.

Faruki has no sharam.He has less sharam than a mule,because he is a brainless blinkered jihadi
stubborn version of a jihadi mule.Though his kind are far more harmful than any minimally evolved creatures.They believe in the unverifiable hereafter and are willing to kill others for it.Like 9/11,godhra train,7/11 etc et etc.....

Besharami to jihadiyoke ke liye kuchbhi nahi hoti hai.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
87
Tarun/Ash/Minu,

>> Are you ready for a debate, if I replace the naked Jesus with hanging penis, and dropping semen with Mohamud.

I posted Vir Sanghvi's excellent editorial on this very subject twice, and I said I fully agree with it.. Are we going to go round and round on the same subject.

>> Stop this double standard. Else, a day is coming, when people will replace

Is this a subject suitable for discussion with threats and ultimatums, or are you just a dolt with bad upbringing?

>> ONLY THOSE WHO OPPOSED (say) RUSHDIE's Book banning in India in late 1980s can speak on this Baroda Issue.

Are you making the rules now?

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
86
Ganpat/Bagai,

>> will never accept that there is even a bit wrong with the muslims.

The problem is with hateful ill-wishers like you, who will never accept any scenario other than that Muslims and Islam are finished! You have to fight tooth and nail any script that suggests that Islam and Muslims have problems which they will slowly overcome.

>> The blacks have always supported American values.

You continue to come up with all kinds of stupid arguments to support your scenario of doom and gloom. Don't you have anything better to do?



Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
85
Tarun/Ash/Minu,

>> What matters is, Shabana Azmi, Javed Bhai, teesta Khan Seetalvad, Irphan Habib, Maulana Farukhi ARE NOT HITTING THE STREET FOR SALMAN RUSHIDE!

It is not only not called for but would be absurd. Your search for things to taunt the seculars with is so desperate, you have mortgaged your commonsense to make some cheap shots.

>> First, its not Mullahs alone. Paki Govt is involved dirctly. So are middle class Muslims in ENgland!

They are all mullahs to me. And so are you.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
84
Tarun/Ash/Minu,
>>>> However if the Vice-Chancellor of MSU and Vadodra police do the bidding of some local VHP goons, that is news.
>> Freedom of expression is not unlimited.

Debate, disagreement and discourse are legitimate. Moral policing by the VHP of what goes on inside an Art class is not.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 20, 2007 12:00 AM
83
Tarun/Ash/Minu,

>> RSS's Sakha is an old concept! Now, there are cyber Sakhas.

Another example of jumping in without having any idea of what point is being discussed. Seems she just likes to make a fool of herself!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
82
Christianty and Islam have failed to demolish caste structures of India. Instead, even worse, they have added greatly in the wide spread communal strife across the subcontinent, from Afghanistan to Sri Lanka. People have carved mother terror ships called Pakistan and Bangladesh, which wants to destroy the subcontinent. Apart from that, we have north east where christian missionaries are arming and inciting the Nagas(one of the most ancient people of the subcontinent) against their own brothers by preaching them hatred through bible. These two ideologies must be checked in all their expansionaist interests and they are not here to preach peace in subcontinent. Their only motive is to degenerate the great people of the subcontiennt to the level of the inhuman character found in the people residing in the rest of the world.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
81
Ramchandra Guha seems to promote the elitist idea of developing India where the rich and the powerful are the most able, capable and qualified. He forgets to congratulate St Stephen's for its realization of past sins where the institution promoted the elitist society, much against the ideals of Jesus Christ, in whose name St Stephen became the first martyr in Christian history. Now with the present policy the institution is moving towards become a Christian institution according to the mind of Jesus Christ, and also doing its constitutional duty as a minority institution. If earlier St Stephen made giant intellectuals and officers, what is their contribution in alleviating hunger and social inequality. Ramchandra Guha need sto answer that honestly.
Francis Minj
Berekely, California
Francis Minj
Berkeley, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
80
>> As if the same people who hounded him earlier have knighted him now!!!

His being knighted is a slap on the faces of those who hounded him. They will still hound him, but that's passe.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
79
Jogi/Shankar,

>>>> If one incident draws a deluge of comments, that does not mean all incidents will.
>>If the basic issue behind both incidents is same, IMHO it should.

Mullahs in Pakistan and Iran making fiery anti-Rushdie speeches is hardly news at all. However if the Vice-Chancellor of MSU and Vadodra police do the bidding of some local VHP goons, that is news. I am sure however that the distinction will be lost on you.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
78
"I wouldn't dream of asking you to stop writing here because reading your inimitable misspelt posts is a great source of laughter. "

Parbat, I have to say the same about your tirades against the Brahmins. Like it or not they are the best that India has got.

Have you heard of a "sanksritisation" - the practice of castes lower in the social scale trying to imbibe the manners of their upper brethren in order to get an "upgrade".

Your angst perhaps may be due to the downgrade suffered by you ..if you are a gujjar you can hope for an upgrade to the SC category. That way you will have all the comptt to yourself. Just ask the Meenas ..
sandy
Mumbai, India
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
77
Hahaha .. this joker (and bigot) Thampu is doing his little bit to unfurl in India the "banner of Christ". Now this soul harvesting business is going to get really interesting ..

JESUS QUOTA in SSC to cross 50%. I am sure the judiciary would like to know why the Indian tax payer shd be so generous to finance this soul harvesting business in this average institution resting on teh laurels of tiny minority. ( You are nobody in Delhi if you cannot get your kid into SSC doing safe courses like Eng litt and history.)

And what about the Jehadi dreams of converting this benighted land into dar ur islam?

May the best quotawallah win ..

sandy
Mumbai, India
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
76
“I have appreciated them not only in theory but very much in practice”

Did you ever dare to ask them whether they appreciated you in return? I doubt it?
sreejith
bangalore, india
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
75
Ganpat Baba;

Now I hear you were "educated" at St Stephens, I see that it can be only a very good school for clowns. You were certainly one of its most successful products.

I wouldn't dream of asking you to stop writing here because reading your inimitable misspelt posts is a great source of laughter.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
74
"At the same time, more Christians should get opportunity to study in Christian missionary run educational institutions because its primary aim is to uplift the Christian masses and not the entire country irrespective of religion. The education of its Christian brotherhood should be given priority. "

A notion of christian Brotherhood built on government funding!!
sreejith
bangalore, india
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
73
When (Christian) evangelism rides roughshod over (Christian) ecumenism, a signal is sent that the valuable lesson that Khushwant Singh had imbibed, "a consciousness of what is right and what is wrong" has been dumped by the very institution that imparted the the most Socratic value in life to him. This reminds me of Ernst Haeckel, who was denounced by his peers for his unchristian-like Riddle of the Universe. A colleague exclaimed, "If there was true Christian among us, it was Ernst Haeckel!"

Given that context, the murder in the cathedral has already been committed.

I have placed 'Christian' within parenthesis,as Aligarh Muslim University and the Benares Hindu University had also fallen from their heights. Sir Syed,the Founder of the former proclaimed, "By the word 'qwam', I mean both Hidus and Muslims. That is the way in which I define the word nation (Qwam)." Pandit Madan Mohan Malaviya, the founder of the later had aspired,"India is not a country of the Hindus only. It is a country of the Muslims, the Christians and the Parsees too. The country can gain strength and develop itself only when the people of the different communities in India live in mutual goodwill and harmony .It is my earnest hope and prayer that this centre of life and light which is coming into existence, will produce students who will not only be intellectually equal to the best of their fellow students in other parts of the world, but will also live a noble life, love their country and be loyal to the Supreme ruler." Inasmuch as Deenabhandu CF Andrews hailed from the same Mount of the wisdom, one can emphathasize with Ramachandra Guha's elegy.
Soundararajan
S. Soundararajan
Portsmouth, United Kingdom
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
72
When (Christian) evangelism rides roughshod over (Christian) ecumenism, a signal is sent that the valuable lesson that Khushwant Singh had imbibed, "a consciousness of what is right and what is wrong" has been dumped by the very institution that imparted the the most Socratic value in life to him. This reminds me of Ernst Haeckel, who was denounced by his peers for his unchristian-like Riddle of the Universe. A colleague exclaimed, "If there was true Christian among us, it was Ernst Haeckel!"

Given that context, the murder in the cathedral has already been committed.

I have placed 'Christian' within parenthesis,as Aligarh Muslim University and the Benares Hindu University had also fallen from their heights. Sir Syed,the Founder of the former proclaimed, "By the word 'qwam', I mean both Hidus and Muslims. That is the way in which I define the word nation (Qwam)." Pandit Madan Mohan Malaviya, the founder of the later had aspired,"India is not a country of the Hindus only. It is a country of the Muslims, the Christians and the Parsees too. The country can gain strength and develop itself only when the people of the different communities in India live in mutual goodwill and harmony .It is my earnest hope and prayer that this centre of life and light which is coming into existence, will produce students who will not only be intellectually equal to the best of their fellow students in other parts of the world, but will also live a noble life, love their country and be loyal to the Supreme ruler." Inasmuch as Deenabhandu CF Andrews hailed from the same Mount of the wisdom, one can emphathasize with Ramachandra Guha's elegy.
Soundararajan
S. Soundararajan
Portsmouth, United Kingdom
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
71
"St Stephen's will soon become a corrupt Christian version of a Hindu shakha or a Muslim madrassa."

1. a "shakha" is not a 'school'. A St Stephenian should have had displayed some quality here and done his research.

2. I'm yet to see a corrupt Christian missionary run school. Even RSS supporters send their kids to missionary run educational institutions because of their quality of education.

3. Having said that, I do feel that Guha has a point w.r.t. the "secularization" of Indian intelligentia. At the same time, more Christians should get opportunity to study in Christian missionary run educational institutions because its primary aim is to uplift the Christian masses and not the entire country irrespective of religion. The education of its Christian brotherhood should be given priority.
Raj
Chicago, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
70
Joseph:

re Manglorean women....

I have appreciated them not bonly in theory but very much in practice. In North america they have glossy skins like ripe mangoes, and delicious slurred US/ Canadian accents. They combine the best of East and West. Result is superb.....
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
69
...contd Ramachandra Guha's take on reservation in 2006:
(My own personal opinion is that in a deeply divided society such as ours, some form of reservation is indeed necessary. Indians born in castes historically denied access to quality education do need special care and support. However, I believe that in schools, colleges and offices alike, reservation should never exceed 33.3 per cent. I also think that for SCs, STs and OBCs alike, family income should be used to determine eligibility for reservation; that only one generation in a family should be granted the privilege; and that children of Class I officials, MLAs and MPs should not be allowed to avail of it. The first restriction would permit institutions to function more autonomously and efficiently than is the case when fully half of its posts are filled on considerations other than individual merit. The second restriction would allow the benefits of reservation to percolate more widely among the population.)

Bindu Tandon
Mumbai, India
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
68
Ramachandra wrote this n @006 at the height of the OBC quota controversy:
Economically and politically, the real beneficiaries of the Indian democracy had been peasant castes such as Jats, Yadavs, Gujjars and Kurmis in the northern states of Madhya Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, Rajasthan and Haryana, Marathas in Maharashtra, Vellalas and Gounders in Tamil Nadu, Reddys and Kammas in Andhra Pradesh, and Lingayats and Vokkaligas in Karnataka. These castes now had more land, and a greater presence in political parties and in the legislatures. What they lacked was administrative power. By virtue of the privileges granted them by the Constitution, the SCs and STs had begun entering government service. Lacking a tradition of education, the OBCs were still kept out. This deficiency was sought to be overcome by reserving a percentage of state jobs for them.

That, in sum, was the logic of the original Mandal commission. The recent extension of reservation to elite educational institutions is — the word is inescapable — a logical extension. For, in the recent impressive gains made by the Indian economy, the OBCs have not benefited proportionately. Upper castes — that is, Brahmins, Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas — constitute less than 20 per cent of the Indian population. Yet they claim perhaps 80 per cent of the jobs in the new economy, in sectors such as software, biotechnology, and hotel management.

In the popular mind, the IITs and the IIMs are something of a passport to the new economy. Entry into one or the other is a virtual guarantee of a handsomely paid job. The Brahmins and Banias crowd into these institutions because generations of practice and social conditioning have made them adept at passing the examinations required to gain entrance. The SCs and STs already have 22.5 per cent of seats reserved for them. But the OBCs remain at a disadvantage; hence the pressure to reserve seats for them, too.

What is crucial here is that the IITs and IIMs are publicly funded institutions, started by the state and kept going by the state. This makes it obligatory for them to honour the constitutional mandate to promote equality of access and opportunity.

In this respect, ‘Mandal II’ follows logically upon ‘Mandal I’. It is a further extension of OBC power and influence into a sector where it previously had scarcely any presence at all. When Mandal I was endorsed by V.P. Singh in 1990, there were howls of protest from communist members of parliament, who thought ‘class’ should also take precedence over ‘caste’. The Congress president, Rajiv Gandhi, also came out strongly against the proposal. And the Bharatiya Janata Party leader, L.K. Advani, sought to answer Mandal with (the Ram) Mandir. This time, however, the criticisms have been confined to the English language press alone. Across the political spectrum, the proposal has been taken as a fait accompli. For no party dare come out openly against a move that has the support of such a numerous and politically powerful section of the Indian population.

To be contd...
Bindu Tandon
Mumbai, India
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
67
The keralite fathers and sisters are a disease of swarming weed, destroying the native culture of nations of people spread across India. They must be restricted to and forced to rot in the regions where they mostly come from - Ernakulam, Allappuzha and Kottayam districts of Kerala.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
66
Parbat//Now - boo hoo ! - they have to go back to their dull, neurotic Upper Caste traditions and horrors.

Hence Guha's wail.

Reply

Guha is a Brahmin to the best of my knowledge.
Please clarify.If you cant even identify the targets of your hatred,you might shoot the wrong person like me who is not a brahmin,and let Guha go scot free when the brahmin wretch should be a marked man.Instead you seem to be on his side.

Too much confusion here.mAYBE you are recouping in that ward
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
65
Parbat//The Brahminists are masters at exploiting the decencies of other people without ever acquiring any decency themselves. No wonder they rush to the US.

Parbat,this is a new word.Brahminists?Can you explain it before using it.

I am in the US just like you.Are we both Brahminists.I am not a Brahmin just like you?

Are we both Brahminists?

You are not decent in your hatred for Brahmins and you stoke and perpetuate divisions which makes you depraved and wicked.

Are you a brahminist?What exactly is a brahminist?

I have only heard of Brahmins.


ash
san diego, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
64
Guha's wail is comical.

I hope this plan goes through and the Upper Castes get squeezed out of St Stephens.

The Brahminists are masters at exploiting the decencies of other people without ever acquiring any decency themselves. No wonder they rush to the US.

When they see a Christian college where pupils have innocent fun and are taught well, they rush their brats into it. They give their brats a carefree and snobbish education, setting them up well for the Upper Caste marriage cattle market.

But they never acquire the Christain spirit of generosity from this experience. When they come out, they are usually the same sleek Upper Caste types, maybe a bit more human among their own kind, but ever ready to show the yellow teeth of their casteist exclusivist hatred towards low castes and Dalits.

St Stephens has up to now given these slimy Upper Castes a chance to deck themselves out in the colors of human beings. Very useful camouflage.

Now - boo hoo ! - they have to go back to their dull, neurotic Upper Caste traditions and horrors.

Hence Guha's wail.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
63
"rushdie also should not be hounded for satanic verses."
"He just got knighted!"

As if the same people who hounded him earlier have knighted him now!!!

I must bow before your excellent ability to argue Farukh miyan!!
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
62
Cannot understand why OUTLOOK considers an article that must be in the alumni newsletter of the college
to be of interest to a national audience.
mgesh
trichy, india
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
61
Notice how many times this prissy sniveller Guha keeps repeating that St Stephens has been cosmopolitan...!

He is in such a panic and rage that he seems to have gone out of his tiny snivelling mind.

I am EXTREMELY happy that St Stpehens is going to be taken away from the most worthless people in the world, the Upper Castes, especially Brahmnins.

Notice that I don't call them Hindus because they are Brahminists, with infinite snobbish hatred of Hindu low castes and Dalits, 90 per cent of Hindus, who have done all the hard work that has created Hindu identity, from buiding the temples and carving the sculptures to weaving the humble baskets.

These Brahminists are the worst parasites in the world, very very good at exploiting others. They don't want to do the hard work of creating good educational institutions, but once they have been built with the sweat and blood of Indian Christians, the Brahminists crowd their fat offsping into them.

Now the Christians have rightly got fed up of this parasitism, and are reserving St Stephens for Christians and deserving disadvantaged SCs.

Well done, Christians !

If Guha wants a good college, let him found one, and teach all the snivelling "ecumenical Hinduism " he wants, until he is blue in his Brahmin face.

I hope ALL Indian Christian convent schools will squeeze the Brahmminists out. Then finally the Hindus will have to pay serious attention to creating their own educational institutions, instead of playing the parasite on other communities.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
60
Faruki//When you have nothing to say, you can stay quiet instead of making a fool of yourself.

Reply
I am just imitating you.Like when you wriggle out of a discussion by copying and pasting your trade mark
exit
line"bajrangi,sanghi,parivar,sanghi,hindut
vaite,bigot,fascist,nazi,hateful,hatred etc"

Note that this can be applied and has been to all
unrelated topics by you.It sure is a serve-all
exit strategy.

But my imitation is poor,at least accurately characterizes your posts.Unlike your exit lines which are not even accurate descriptions of sanghis etc.


ash
san diego, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
59
Faruk//Liberals who have not commented on the Rushdie matter in the past 24 hours are still liberals, and their liberalism is in no danger of tarnishment.

Liberals who have commented negatively on Gujarat and BJP in past 24 days are even more liberal than Faruk's "still liberals".

Liberals who have negatively commented on Gujarat and BJP in past 240 days are the most liberal than Faruk's "still liberals".No wonder Faruk keeps quoting them from our English media.

ash
san diego, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
58
Ash/Tarun/Minu,

>> Not when the subject is "Farukisms".

When you have nothing to say, you can stay quiet instead of making a fool of yourself.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
57
>> Even the MS university incident was being duly reported by the reporters. But it deserved a deluge of "secular" comments.

If one incident draws a deluge of comments, that does not mean all incidents will. (you are sounding more and more like Shankar!).

>> rushdie also should not be hounded for satanic verses.

He just got knighted!

>> You have the freedom to pick and chose issues you will comment just as others have the freedom to point out your selective liberalism.

Liberals who have not commented on the Rushdie matter in the past 24 hours are still liberals, and their liberalism is in no danger of tarnishment.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
56
Oh My dear, Mr. Ramchandra Guha!!!
What have u done?
You have committed a grave SIN!!! Now be ready to Rot in the hell!!
You have put aspersions on THE MOST SECULAR LIBERAL MODERN TOLLERENT SOCIAL entity like St Stephan's!!!!
Don't you know that it is run by Missionaries who have nothing else in their hearts but the selfless service to the society, upliftment of poor, downtrodden, underprevileged!!!( Ignore few lac conversions per year. What's the big deal! )
It is a SIN, in this Hindu majority, SECULAR country, to doubt the secular credentials, of Christian missionary organisations (Even if they take huge grants from government & then run the institutions in the name of Christianity & it's Saints.)Have u forgotten that Missionaries are angels sent by the Lord, on this earth & specially to India!!!
Didn't u know that missionaries are SECULAR VIPs, even if their supreme authority, the pope, denounces secularism & the religion itself teaches that no other path leads to salvation?

Such Strong criticism is only reserved for HINDU FUNDAMENTALIST ORGANISATIONS!!, even if they are totally autonomous. That's the rule. Now I heard that the Seculars are going to ask the govt to include this rule in the constitution!!

Now you will first be damned & then be boycotted by the elite secular liberal modern leftist intellectuals artists actors dancers of this Country. You will be called RSS agent, Saffron freak, Khaki chaddi & what not!!
Didn't u know What happened to Dr. Bhyrappa the eminent Kannada author? He dared to comment on the Islamic Fundamentalism for a change. Now he is almost blacklisted by the INTELLIGENSIA!!!


Abhijit Kane
Mumbai, India
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
55
Faruk//What may be obvious to some may be falsification to others

Not when the subject is "Farukisms"

It would not be a falsification to say that
Farukisms are and obvious falsification,based
on the scientific evidence to the contrary,refuting all your beliefs and posts.

Keep posting farukisms.Literate, brainless, blinkered, jihadi mule and his loyalty to his mullah-masters being exposed helps the anti-jihad forces.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
54
>> you shout ‘bigot’ ‘sanghi’, ‘bajrangi’. I tried to argue that all such people are not RSS pracharaks.

What was the relevance in this thread?

>> more and more people see the obvious.

What may be obvious to some may be falsification to others.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
53
>> you did announce the knighthood but forgot to mention the renewed threat to blow him up by the mullah brigade.

There were no threats when I made the announcement, and I do not feel the need to report such threats anyway. They are being duly reported by the reporters, and they do not always deserve a comment.

>> you did respond to what crazies do across the border in Denmark with the cartoons or what happens in darfur or Iraq.

The two situations are not comparable, at least not yet. If I comment on some, it does not mean I have to comment on all.


Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
52
I don’t know what’s not making sense to you. I’ll explain for the last time. For any one who gives any argument that could be remotely termed as anti-Muslim, you shout ‘bigot’ ‘sanghi’, ‘bajrangi’. I tried to argue that all such people are not RSS pracharaks.

As for your ‘not proven’ comment…if the historians chose to ignore Guru Nanak’s account of mughal atrocities, who was a contemporary, what can one say about them? But thankfully more and more people see the obvious. As for those who don’t, well, they don’t because they don’t want to…you included. I have nothing further to say.

BTW, whenever you don’t have any worthwhile argument to give, you start giving one/two word responses… so typically you…
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
51
I studied at Lady Sri Ram while my husband was at ST Stephens years ago.
Our colleges did not make us and frankly the institutions were not in any position to guide and inspire.
What they had was adequate funding, facilities and a reputation for elitism and a good high scoring crowd since cutoffs were high even then.
In fact they were bastions of Have in the country of Have Nots and yes that was good.
Did they teach me an iota of public service or feelings for the Have NOts? Are you joking?
The college did not instill any so called Moral values or impose any codes and so yes we loved it.
Even today when we meet people who claim their college define them what I think they mean is that they belonged there and participated in various intercollege academic and non academic activities that were fun...In fact our colleges allowed us a privileged education and environment so great.
But to believe that the badge on our lapels meant that we were indeed quality has led to many stuffed shirts, cockatoos who flaunt College affiliations beyond decency.
If Ramachandra Guha is upset that poor Christians will now replace privileged if meritorious non-Christians he is fully justified and yes certainly the fun element, the privilege element will all be diluted. But the bloody ruling party supports this and so be it.
My christian school teachers were a really prissy lot and I resent being told at the tender age of 10 that my religion was backward and cow worship was sinful. I resent the half literate nun who sat in judgment on my faith.
But admittedly the nuns ran a decent school and I might add with large play grounds and a beautiful chapel that I visited often and yes they were the children of British ecumenical zeal and it needed time and experience to get over her strange admonishments regarding my religion.
And seriously my grandmother did think the catholics were dirty, and immoral and to be kept at an arms length and only a mingling of cultures and people can dispel the myths that grow within different communities.
If the Christians wish to spread Christian light amongst Christian underprivileged and the law supports them let them turn the clock back and let the Guhas of the world or their offspring help found a hundred other places where young people can dream.
Go out and support quotas for all all, you bleeding heart liberals till they come back and guillotine you!
Halleluah!

Bindu Tandon
Mumbai, India
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
50
Bagachi,

>> well, the way you always label all pro-Hindu arguments as SANGHI/BAJRANGI, I thought…

I told you that I had never suggested that all Hindus attend RSS sakhas. Your reply does not make sense.

>> claims and conclusions that nonetheless COULD NOT BE refuted…

Nor proven.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
49
>> Votaries of Freedom of artistic expression , who were vocal in the MS university case are yet to wake up , as usual.

Mean remark! I was the first one to announce Rushdie's knighthood in this forum. If you think I should respond to every crazy pronouncement from across the border, you are wrong.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
48
Ash/Tarun/Minu,

>> IT is Hindus who are not allowed to be proud.

Hindus do not need anybody's permission to be proud of their history. The issue is about textbooks and what is taught in schools. Pride in one's nation and one's people should be inculcated in both Hindu and Muslim children. History classes should never prejudice our children against each other.

>> Pakistan an Bdesh were part of what was known as India for milleniums.

Your bringing them into this discussion was irrelevant, but with the looseness in your thinking, I suppose you just can't help being irrelevant and incoherent.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
47
MR.GOSH

Since you spoke of Sawami Dayanand -please Read Satyarth Praksh on net.It is available in abridged version.

Read and you will realise what you have been missing about Araya Dharama.If already read recommend to your friends.

Friend at me you are free to shout at any time.Best spanking baby does !
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
46
Farukh miyan
”Just like all Muslims don’t study at madarsas, all Hindus don’t study at RSS shakhas either. “
”I did not suggest that they did.”

…well, they way you always label all pro-Hindu arguments as SANGHI/BAJRANGI, I thought…

”Most arguments have been backed up with evidence that these ‘eminent historians’ could not refute.”
”A claim and conclusion of the pariwar revisionists!”

…claims and conclusions that nonetheless COULD NOT BE refuted…
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
45
""yaar, can u please stop using Indian media, rather do whatever masterbation needs to be done on Islamic ones!---

TARUN GHOSH

"""

THANKS MR.GOSH ! For your information my three generations are Araya Samji.I have not ran from India to USA.
I am still a Practicing Chartered Engineer at age of 67.

You have told us about the Engineering posts held by you .Engineers are taught 'KEEP EYES AND MIND OPEN .CORRECT YOUR SELF WHEN PROVED WRONG'

JEHAD CAN'T BE FOGHT ENJOYING USA COMFORTS.

COME AND JOIN THE BATTLE IN INDIA.We are waiting .COMING HERE TO JOIN BATTLE WITH JEHADIES ???
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
44
Faruk to me and others

Tarun/Ash/Minu,

>> Pakistan and Bangladesh are Islamic.

You start out on the wrong foot. We were talking about India

Reply

Not so fast you brainless-blinkered jihadi mule.

Pakistan an Bdesh were part of what was known as India for milleniums.

Just an artificial border 60 yrs ago drawn by some jihadis and their psecularist conspirators doesnt change thousands of yrs of history.

Especially when muslims living in India divided the country and still live here shamelessly.

And are more concerned about palestine and Iraq and rejoice when pakistan beats India at cricket.

ash
san diego, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
43
Ash/ Tarun/Minu,

>> And do not want others to excercize the right to correct them and expose them.

You need not only to be corrected and exposed, but to be hospitalized!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
42
""Dayananda Saraswathi

This happened about 150 years ago. Saurashtra of the present Gujarat State consisted of several small states. Among them was Morvi. Tankara was a town in this state. There lived a wealthy Brahmin, Karshanji Lalji Tiwari by name; he was also the tahsildar of Tankara. The ruler of Morvi had granted him a small troop of horses (cavalry) both for protection and as a mark of honour.

Karshanji was a good and just man. He was generous in his dealings. He had faith in religious practices that had come down from times immemorial. His wife,Amrithbai, was a beautiful and Virtuous woman. She was like a mother his go to all the villagers. In 1824, a son was born to the couple. They named' him Moolashankar.According to the custom of the place, he was also called Dayaram. This child was to become famous as Maharshi Dayananda. """

READ DEAR GOSH :

""When he attained the age of five, Moolashankar's education started. At the age of eight, his Upanayana Samskara (being invested with the holy thread) was performed. The boy used to perform religious rites like 'Sandhyavandana’ with devotion. He had a very good memory. By the time he was fourteen he had learnt by heart the Yajurveda, the scriptures and the upanishads.""


http://freeindia.org/biographies/dayanand/

a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
41
Farukism//Indian Muslims should be proud of India's pre-Islamic as well as Islamic history. If the latter is downgraded there would be less inclination to celebrate the former.

Indian muslims are only proud of islamic history even though they have hindu genes.

IT is Hindus who are not allowed to be proud and the psecularist fraud and treason has intentionally seen to this for 60 yrs.

Why the double standards?In fact the psecularists humiliate hinduism,forget pride.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
40

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Dayananda


Mr Gosh -thanks for information that Sawami Dayanad received Westen education .

Where and when ???
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
39
Vijay S great rebuttal to Parbat and Faruk

It seems they reserve the monopoly to lie and lie,like our lefist historians.And do not want others to excercize the right to correct them and expose them.

And then these scum lecture about tolerance.Only to others against their evil.
While they are consumed by their hatred and intolerance themselves.Slime.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
38
""Idiot, the historian I quoted is a respected one, unlike you fundoos!

mR. TARUN GHOSH

FACT STILL REMAINS SWAMI DAYAND NEVER RECIEVED WESTERN EDUCATION .IN FACT HE RECEIVED LITTLE FORMAL EDUCTION IN School.

""Dayananda starting questioning traditional beliefs of Hinduism and inquiring about God in early childhood. Still a young child on the night of Shivratri (literally: the night for God Shiva)when his family went to a temple for overnight worship, he stayed up waiting for God to appear to accept the offerings made to idol of God Shiva. While all else slept, Dayananda saw mice eating the offerings kept for the God. He was utterly surprised and wondered how a God, who cannot even protect his own "offerings", would protect humanity. He argued with his father that they should not be worshipping such a helpless God. He started pondering over the meaning of life and death and started asking questions, which worried his parents. His parents decided to marry him off in his early teens (common in 19th century India), but he decided marriage was not for him and ran away from home. He was disillusioned with classical Hinduism and became a wandering monk. He learned Panini's Grammar to understand Sanskrit texts. After wandering in search of guidance for over 2 decades, he found Swami Virjananda near Mathura who became his guru and told him to throw away all his books in the river and focus on the Vedas. Dayananda stayed under Swami Virjananda's tutelage for two and a half years. After finishing his education, Virjananda asked him to spread the concepts of Vedas in society as his gurudakshina ("tuition-dues").

Dayananda set about the difficult task with dedication despite attempts on his life. He traveled the country challenging religious scholars and priests of the day to discussions and won repeatedly on the strength of his arguments. He believed that Hinduism has been corrupted by divergence from the founding principles of the Vedas and misled by the priesthood for the priests' self-aggrandisement. Hindu priests discouraged common folk from reading Vedic scriptures and encouraged rituals (such as bathing in the Ganges and feeding of priests on anniversaries) which Dayananda pronounced as superstitions or self-serving "'

cntd
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
37
OOPS:''ill respective of cats and creeds""

IRESPECTIVE OF ALL CASTS AND CREEDS--
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
36
"Swami Dayanand, Vivekanand, Aurobindo Ghosh.......were all wetsern educated. And saw first hand the abuse Hinduism get in the hands of missionaries.""

Mr.Ghosh

Swami dayanad was a Gujrati Hindu. He was taught by SWAMI Brajehrawa Nand Sarswati after he became Monk at very young age .He never got the Western Education.Still he did a very great job in awakening Hindus about the dangers of being converted enmasse by Christian Preachers under pressure of Britishers.

He was against Murti POOJA and preached One God.
Satyarth Prakash -written by Swami Dayanad is worth reading by all ill respective of cats and creeds.He stood for equality of Women. Preached Widow marriage-even in my family two widowed aunts were married by my elders under influence of Samaj.

PARBAT -Aryasamj has no place for Manuwad.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
35
Tarun/Ash/Minu,

>> Pakistan and Bangladesh are Islamic.

You start out on the wrong foot. We were talking about India. If Pakistan and Bangladesh seem so emulable to you, go and live there. With your mullah mentality you will fit in quite nicely there.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
34
Jihadi commie partha//Christians and muslims are not comparable. While christians have more thsn their share of 3% of the population, muslims have less than 2% representation in the services as brought out by the Sachar report.

Yep,is this your way of rewarding birth control you idiot.If everything is as per pop %,then multiplication is rewarded and birth control is punished.

u cleverly hide the exclusive reservations for muslims in Pakistan,bdesh and kahmir,former mughal rule.

People like u should be packed away to pakistan where they belong with the jihadis.

Your posts prove u are a traitor,as per dictionary.Period.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
33
Ram Guha gets really absurd in an otherwise well-written article. Why does Shivshankar Menon's having attended St Stephen's attest to its cosmopolitanism when everyone knows St Stephen's was nothing but a finishing school for the aspirants to higher babudom viz., the IAS?

His grandfather KPS Menon attended Madras Christian College which is dismissed as a college for 'Madrasis' (whatever he means by that) and "at a pinch Malayalis". So being located in Delhi leads to the self fulfilling prophesy of being cosmopolitan, I suppose, which Madras and Calcutta can't aspire for.

In fact, going by the names he quotes, St Stephen's is as insular as it gets. It only catered to the rich of upper India, the kids of bureaucracy from all over and all manner of alumni incl. riff raff of the boarding schools of the hill stations.

Every now and then, Madras produced a Madrasi professor of English who edited Gandhiji's Collected Works, who could also give an All India Radio address on the 'History of Tamil Literature' but who had Englishmen lecturers in English sit at his feet to learn the nuances of 'An Ode to the West Wind', now he was truly cosmopolitan.

But such cosmopolitans' grand nephews go to St Stephen's. They end up thinking the India International Center is India and they and their college are cosmopolitan because their kind shows up in college from all over India.

What a pity!
Lakshmi Srinivas
- -, USA
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
32
>> the Greeks and the Spartans are proud of their Pre-Christian history.

Indian Muslims should be proud of India's pre-Islamic as well as Islamic history. If the latter is downgraded there would be less inclination to celebrate the former.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
31
Prabat/ Faruk/ and other misguided people, for once please come out of your stupid anti-hindu and anti-brahmin moulds and think from a logical perspective. The so called Brahmins, Prabat were supposedly the scholarly people, who were far fewer in number and had hardly any arms to defend themselves. Think for yourself, if the Dalits were far more in number wouldnt they have overrun the so called Brahmins? and Ghulam Farukhi for your kind information, they dont teach History at the RSS Shakha. They dont teach or preach anything at all. All you do is complete a few breathing exercises, chant Vande Mataram and play a few Indian games such as Kabaddi and end the session. They dont talk about whether Aurangzeb had a 100 wives or was impotent or was an icon or an iconoclast, cos frankly my dear we have better things to think about. And yes, if Indian History has to be distorted and taught by Romilla Thapars and Ramachandra Guhas then we have to correct them. Do you know that the Greeks and the Spartans are proud of their Pre-Christian history and to even this day practice some of their old traditions which have seamlessly blended into Christianity. Does anyone talk about Pre Islamic Arabia? In a similar vein, all we are saying is practice your religion, but be proud of your ancestry which is as rich and glorious as any in the world. Whether you care or not, if you are an Indian Muslim you are invariably of Hindu descent. I challenge you to a debate on facts and we'll see who argues agaisnt facts
vijay shankar
Bangalore, India
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
30
Mr Guha may have thrown more allegations than the situation warrants. If a large % of christians in the church of North India are dalits and a christian institute is not able to cater to them, what is wrong is making sure that they do? How can the entry of 10% dalit christians bring down the college? Are they not allowed to fulfil what they think is their social responsibility?
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Jun 19, 2007 12:00 AM
29
I deeply sympathise with these Christians, wanting somewhere to study and worship without being cluttered about by these perverse and vivious Upper Castes, worst of all Brahmins.

Indian Christians I have consistently found to be a very likeable people. I know them very well in Canada and the US as well as in India. They are very successful in fitting into Western society in Canada and the US, and their women are fabulous. Particularly Mangloreans. So good looking, their women in North America !

Much better than the mousy and neurotic Upper Castes with their ghastly traditions and prejudices.

Pity there are so few Indian Christians.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jun 18, 2007 12:00 AM
28
Kiran/Bagachi,

>> Just like all Muslims don’t study at madarsas, all Hindus don’t study at RSS shakhas either.

I did not suggest that they did.

>> Most arguments have been backed up with evidence that these ‘eminent historians’ could not refute.

A claim and conclusion of the pariwar revisionists!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 18, 2007 12:00 AM
27
I was a student at St Stephen's between 1993 and 1996 and studied English. I was taught the Gospel according to Saint Matthew (which was part of our curriculum) by the current Principal, Reverend Valson Thampu. Rev Thampu is a truly inspirational teacher and taught us the text by placing it in the modern times we live in and thereby making it accessible to far more students than otherwise would be interested. Indeed, he was one of my referees for Oxford and Cambridge. I went on to study law at Oxford on the Radhakishnan Scholarship and have kept touch with him over the years and got to know him very well. I am amazed at some of the people like Guha accusing him and the college of evangelicalism. Nothing could be further from the truth.

In all my interactions with Rev Thampu since leaving college, I realized his deep pain at the rising communalism in the country and followed his efforts to work across different faiths (and most notably with Swami Agnivesh) to try and bring about a reconciliation. Over a period of time, I realized that he came from humble roots in Kerala and had taught himself English to a large extent. I remember feeling quite amazed at the extraordinary journey that he had made in his life. But more than anything else, I remember him as a good, true and humane person with a terrific knowledge of literature and an even greater understanding and empathy for the trials and tribulations of our time. I, along with several of my peers, owe an incalculable debt to him.

I am convinced that the administrators under the able leadership of Rev Thampu will never compromise the meritocratic nature of the college and that the college will continue to attract the best and continue to be a melting pot of excellence. Mr. Guha would be well advised to do some more research and know the protagonists better before jumping to conclusions.

Amit Singh, Lawyer in a Wall Street Firm in London.

Amit Singh
London, United Kingdom
Jun 18, 2007 12:00 AM
26
I was a resident student at St. Stephen's College reading for a BA degree with honours in English Literature between 1991 and 1994. St. Stephen's was my great educator and my home: I used to stay in Rudra South Block. I affirm with complete conviction that St. Stephen's has always been a very meritocratic institution where intellectual curiosity, commitment to aesthetic pursuits (debating, theatre, sports, just to name a few) and an over-all spirit of camaraderie prevails with unfettered success. I know the Principal-in-absence, Dr. Anil Wilson, and the current Principal, Reverent Valson Thampu, very closely, not least because they taught me English Literature (Dr. Wilson taught me "The Mill on the Floss" and Rev. Thampu taught me Shakespeare's Richard II). I never detected in either of them any Christian agenda or anti-meritocratic commitment. They loved the College and loved its students. It was largely because of the excellent opportunities I received at St. Stephen's College, that I was able to go on to study law at Oxford University on a Radhakrishnan scholarship the same year I graduated from St. Stephen's. As a Stephanian, I implore Mr. Guha not to be unfairly critical of St. Stephen's or its talented administrators and also, not to overlook the fact that St. Stephen's College continues to be committed to intellectual honesty and scholastic excellence.

Abesh Choudhury, Lawyer, London, England

abesh@post.harvard.edu
Abesh
London, United Kingdom
Jun 18, 2007 12:00 AM
25
This is an instance of the selfishness and crookedness of the Upper Castes.

They never do anything hard. They love to get others to do all the hard work. Then they take the credit. Particularly the Brahmins.

Thus Brahmins never built the Hindu temples or carved the great Hindu scultures. The Sudras and Dalits sweated and built them and did the carving, then the Brahmins stole them and minted money from them.

In the same way, the Upper Castes are too lazsy and selfish to do the hard work of educating children. The children of the poor they abandon. Their own children they get Christians to educate and train. When the Christians, quite justifiably, seek to reserve their efforts a bit to other Christians, these lazy and selfish Upper Castes cry "foul!"

The Brahminists are the curse of India and have always been. Notice I do not call them Hindus. They are NOT Hindus. They don't care a damn for the life and death of 90 per cent of Hindus who are low castes or Dalits. They are Brahminists.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jun 18, 2007 12:00 AM
24
This is to Mr.PARBAT LALDENG -

Sir, the way you love Jesus, we too love him. Nope...I am a born Hindu , my family culture taught me to love and respect others as humanity is above all and I am sure you must have the same basic education.

But sorry to decline to your views which is as posted "If Hinduism has made any progress towards becoming a little human it is due to the criticism by the missionaries".

Sorry sir...if you donot know about others, better not to speak.
KALYAN
JSR, India
Jun 18, 2007 12:00 AM
23
DCINDIA:

"Huts", I meant below.

Who are greater exclusivists, maniacal exclusivists - than Brahmins?
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jun 18, 2007 12:00 AM
22
With due respect to Mr.Guha, I would like to ask what prompted him to compare Mr.Modi with Mr.Osama? I mean if people like Mr.Guha talks like this how about other psuedo secular people who shed crocodile tears in all wrong events.

Also there is no need to bring RSS here, although I am neither a RSS member nor VHP activities, current politics of India encouraging me to inclined in this direction which is not a very good sign, as like most of the hindus I want to remain secular.

How come Hindus become communal if they love their religion wihout harming others while others are free to follows their faith with a lollypop tagged as secular...funny..ya..

Mr.Guha...hope you answer me.
KALYAN
JSR, India
Jun 18, 2007 12:00 AM
21
Ganpat:

What is so terrible about Christian and Muslim missionaries? At least they get inside the hust of the people so-called "Hindu" upper castes hate - the low castes and Tribals, and try to teach them something and help them with their lives.

Why should Upper Castes who would feel defiled by them curse the missionaries for that?

If Hinduism has made any progress towards becoming a little human it is due to the criticism by the missionaries.

The Upper Castes can't be bothered to organise good schools. They leave that to the missionaries. Then they curse them for teaching Christianity !

How does that make sense?
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jun 18, 2007 12:00 AM
20
Correction.In my kiran post

You only have to be an ignoramus or fool.

should read


You only do not have to be an ignoramus or fool.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 18, 2007 12:00 AM
19
Kiran//Come on Farukh miyan!! Just like all Muslims don’t study at madarsas, all Hindus don’t study at RSS shakhas either. I haven’t seen or heard of a shakha in my neighbourhood and don’t know anyone who has heard of it either.

In fact this is far more applicable to Hindus who have a minuscule attending shakhas.Far more % muslims attend madrasas and then the double whammy of mosque sermons which many more attend.

You not need to go to a shakha so as not to be fooled by the psecularist jihadi fraud of 60 yrs.

You only have to be an ignoramus or fool.

Simple evolving reasoning and factual information lead us to the positions and conclusions we hold.Not rss shahkhas.

Contrast this with muslims who pawn their brains to mullahs at birth, as per their absolutist religion
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 18, 2007 12:00 AM
18
Come on Farukh miyan!! Just like all Muslims don’t study at madarsas, all Hindus don’t study at RSS shakhas either. I haven’t seen or heard of a shakha in my neighbourhood and don’t know anyone who has heard of it either.

I am a KV product and have grown up with the whitewashed MUSLIM history and demonized HINDU history, and so did everyone since 1945. I studied about Sati, untouchability, poor status of widows and dalits and scores of Hindu dogmas in my medieval history school text books and divisive role of RSS and Hindu Mahasabha in modern history. It’s only now that I and many of my generation are getting exposed to any view point which is contrary to what Romila Thapar said. Most arguments have been backed up with evidence that these ‘eminent historians’ could not refute.

If many Hindus believe that the whitewashing was done to Muslim history because it badly needed one and the Hindu history was demonized much more than was needed, it’s not because of RSS shakhas but despite them.

Enough of your going to town crying about your “whitewashed Hindu history and demonized Muslim history”!! You cry about it in every other post.
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Jun 17, 2007 12:00 AM
17
Whenever these pseudo-secularists find something too obnoxious in the behaviour of the minorities and find themselves criticising it, they have perforce to add a criticism of the Sangh Pariwar in the same breath, whether relevant or not, for no reason other than to exhibit their secularism. After all, the (original) communalists are the followers of the minority religions, aren't they?
R. NARASIMHAN
CHENNAI, INDIA
Jun 17, 2007 12:00 AM
16
RAM GUHA IS AN ASSHOLE .WHY DOES HE HAVE TO COMPARE NARENDRA MODI WITH OSAMA AND AND A HINDU SHAKA WITH MADARASA JUST TO PROVE THAT HE IS SECULAR.
shriprasad
hyderabad, India
Jun 17, 2007 12:00 AM
15
Farukism//Just 50 years ago American history books had all good things to say about the whites, and all unpleasant things to say about American Indians and American Blacks.

Reply
just 50 yrs ago,blacks did not break up america and create a pakistan over 1/2 m dead.

Blacks never ruled india and were slaves.Blacks do not riot and pelt stones and take to violence after mosque sermons with little provocation.How many black riots have there been? A handful.

Blacks do not identify with african countries.

Would blacks dare a Godhra train terrorist act?

Even in darfur their color is going against them .

Do not insult the history of slavery by comparing
your murderous hatefilled religion and its followers with blacks and slaves.

If I were to pass this post to blacks in the USA,they would feel ouraged.

Only jihadi idiots cum traitors like you do not see the injustice and depravity of what you posted.So obsessed are you with the anything-goes
for islam jihadi doctrine.

Why would u? It comes so naturally to pawned-mullah brains like u.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 17, 2007 12:00 AM
14
Ash/Minu,

>> Okay,pakistan, 9/11,7/11 never happened.Godhra train was either an accident,suicide.

You are being silly. Your ugly ant-Muslim pet issues that you churn day in and day out have their corresponding parts in all communities. Just 50 years ago American history books had all good things to say about the whites, and all unpleasant things to say about American Indians and American Blacks. American history books today are much more evenhanded, and create a good feeling of self in Black and Indian children.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 17, 2007 12:00 AM
13
Faruk

//Teaching whitewashed Hindu history and demonized Muslim history is hardly a laudable activity.


Reply
Okay,pakistan, 9/11,7/11 never happened.Godhra train was either an accident,suicide or done by
rss.As 9/11 was done by jews if it happend.

Simi is a band of angels competing with Mother teresa's sisters of charity for the noble prize.
Aurangzeb,sorajuddin and Afzal are martyrs.

Guru Gobind singh was never hanged by the mughals.

Muslim teens are cute little cherubic angels.And they show it thru their stone pelting at police for little reason like mecca masjid and muhammed nudes,which the police had nothing to do with.

Riots against bush,pope,saddam hanging,sharon visit,danish cartoons,falwell comment,salman rushdie are fiction only to demonize muslims,who are the most angelic darlings on our planet.

Like that cute 12 yr old talibani who beheaded a person recently on tape.

Happy?
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 17, 2007 12:00 AM
12
The truth is Hinduism has penetrated Christianity. By reserving seats for Dalit Christians, the Church Of North India is dividing Christians. This is a triumph for Manu.
pear
mumbai, India
Jun 17, 2007 12:00 AM
11
So whats new? Christians have always been exclusvists...for them it begins and ends with Christians and Christianity.
dcindia
Omaha, United States
Jun 17, 2007 12:00 AM
10
Tarun/Ash/Minu,

>> Ubrindled hate to whoever speaks about India's many achievements in its long journey of 5000.

What the dense would not be able to understand is that it is not necessary to whitewash Hindu history or to demonize Indain Muslim history. India's achievements will come through in all their glory in an honest and undoctored presentation of history.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 16, 2007 12:00 AM
9
If St.Stephen is truly that egalitarian let it take the students by lottery system even for general category. If a dalit christian with 70percent is good enough why not an uppercaste with 70percent?
pear
mumbai, India
Jun 16, 2007 12:00 AM
8
>> In an RSS Shakha, one is taught to be a patriotic Indian, proud of our ancient heritage and culture. What is wrong in that?

Teaching whitewashed Hindu history and demonized Muslim history is hardly a laudable activity.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 16, 2007 12:00 AM
7
Guha writes,
'St Stephen's will soon become a corrupt Christian version of a Hindu shakha or a Muslim madrassa.'
It appears he is losing his mind and is frustrated at something. Why the need to compare a College with a sakha and a madrasa? It would have been acceptable if St Stephen's was a school. This clearly shows that he has a communal mind.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Jun 16, 2007 12:00 AM
6
Radesh deserves an encore.Radesh writes

//Myopic psuedo secularist Guha is rudely kicked awake. Methinks ,he was turned away at the portals of his stepmotherly college when he went cringing, seeking admission for a son or daughter.
We have seen this coming for decades, starting from Jesuit colleges like Loyola, Chennai.( incidentally chosen the All India best college by India Today 2007- hand it to them - The christian colleges are great at PR )I am not proud of having studied there. Crude communalism in the form of favouring christians ( no issue of merit ),in selection of students and staff is the norm. Bypassing of seniority norms for posts to select christian priests/ laymen over Hindus, is also de rigeur. The facts about Government funding and misuse by minority institutions are well known. As also the fact that all these colleges benefited unfairly from the munificience of a communal British Government. But no craven psuedo secular politician will raise his voice on the matter. We will have to wait for many more people like Mr.Guha to feel the pinch personally before they see what's been staring them in the face all the time. Unbridled, slavish pandering to minorities that's developed into a Frankenstein all this while. Old habits die hard, Guha, still feels obliged to drag in the name of Hindu colleges to prove his 'secular credentials'. Wake up, Grow up!

My take

Radesh I loved your post.This is excatly the selfish hypocritical,motivated duplicitous character of the Indian psecularist.Bhashanbaaz and grandstand to others about true hinduism,how india will survive and bounce back after terror bombs and kashmir genocide.As long as it serves their ego and even get fame and jobs and money in English media by bashing Hindus as communal.

But the moment their personal interests are affected,these big-mouths in TV debates like Guha,behave like the lower level life they are,scrambling to protect their interests.Lectures are only for others about psecularism,true hindu tolerance,peace,patience etc.Not to aggressive non hindus of course who can feel free to bulldoze hindus at will.

Myopic psuedo secularist Guha is rudely kicked awake. Methinks ,he was turned away at the portals of his stepmotherly college when he went cringing, seeking admission for a son or daughter.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 16, 2007 12:00 AM
5
One more thing Radesh

Guha intentionally omits the name of walson thampu who was on TV yesterday and who is officiating as St. Stephhen's chief.

Why? Because Thampu is a well known fellow camper in the psecularist camp.And Thanpu has grabbed this opportunity to push his agenda,even if he is only officiating at present.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 16, 2007 12:00 AM
4
Radesh I loved your post.This is excatly the selfish hypocritical,motivated duplicitous character of the Indian psecularist.Bhashanbaaz and grandstand to others about true hinduism,how india will survive and bounce back after terror bombs and kashmir genocide.As long as it serves their ego and even get fame and jobs and money in English media by bashing Hindus as communal.

But the moment their personal interests are affected,these big-mouths in TV debates like Guha,behave like the lower level life they are,scrambling to protect their interests.Lectures are only for others about psecularism,true hindu tolerance,peace,patience etc.Not to aggressive non hindus of course who can feel free to bulldoze hindus at will.

Myopic psuedo secularist Guha is rudely kicked awake. Methinks ,he was turned away at the portals of his stepmotherly college when he went cringing, seeking admission for a son or daughter.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 16, 2007 12:00 AM
3
Myopic psuedo secularist Guha is rudely kicked awake. Methinks ,he was turned away at the portals of his stepmotherly college when he went cringing, seeking admission for a son or daughter.
We have seen this coming for decades, starting from Jesuit colleges like Loyola, Chennai.( incidentally chosen the All India best college by India Today 2007- hand it to them - The christian colleges are great at PR )I am not proud of having studied there. Crude communalism in the form of favouring christians ( no issue of merit ),in selection of students and staff is the norm. Bypassing of seniority norms for posts to select christian priests/ laymen over Hindus, is also de rigeur. The facts about Government funding and misuse by minority institutions are well known. As also the fact that all these colleges benefited unfairly from the munificience of a communal British Government. But no craven psuedo secular politician will raise his voice on the matter. We will have to wait for many more people like Mr.Guha to feel the pinch personally before they see what's been staring them in the face all the time. Unbridled, slavish pandering to minorities that's developed into a Frankenstein all this while. Old habits die hard, Guha, still feels obliged to drag in the name of Hindu colleges to prove his 'secular credentials'. Wake up, Grow up!
radesh rangarajan
chennai, India
Jun 16, 2007 12:00 AM
2
Ramachandra Guha's essay, though very insightful and presents a largely unbiased view of the fall from grace of the famed St.Stephens College, embellishes it with largely unfactual information and the usual rhetoric of equating a Hindu Shakha to a Muslim Madarasa. We all want to know where in India do you have a functional Hindu Shakha ? If he means an RSS Shakha, then he has to get his facts right. Has he ever attended an RSS Shakha? Does he know what goes on in an RSS Shakha? Lets get the facts right, there is no organization in this country that professes and propogates Hinduism as a faith like the evangelicals and the madrasas who propogate Islam and Christianity. In an RSS Shakha, one is taught to be a patriotic Indian, proud of our ancient heritage and culture. What i wrong in that? No one is taught to hate muslims or christians or any other religion, unlike what Mr. Guha and other people of his ilk would like to think and would like the entire world to believe. I Challenge Mr.Guha to a debate based on facts and let us see how he defends his hypothesis.
vijay shankar
Bangalore, India
Jun 16, 2007 12:00 AM
1
Ramachandra Guha's essay, though very insightful and presents a largely unbiased view of the fall from grace of the famed St.Stephens College, embellishes it with largely unfactual information and the usual rhetoric of equating a Hindu Shakha to a Muslim Madarasa. We all want to know where in India do you have a functional Hindu Shakha ? If he means an RSS Shakha, then he has to get his facts right. Has he ever attended an RSS Shakha? Does he know what goes on in an RSS Shakha? Lets get the facts right, there is no organization in this country that professes and propogates Hinduism as a faith like the evangelicals and the madrasas who propogate Islam and Christianity. In an RSS Shakha, one is taught to be a patriotic Indian, proud of our ancient heritage and culture. What i wrong in that? No one is taught to hate muslims or christians or any other religion, unlike what Mr. Guha and other people of his ilk would like to think and would like the entire world to believe. I Challenge Mr.Guha to a debate based on facts and let us see how he defends his hypothesis.
vijay shankar
Bangalore, India
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