AP
Reservations
Scheduled Trouble
The calling-off of the agitation that left 26 dead, hundreds injured, buses and trucks burnt, roads blocked, rail-tracks damaged and the country held to ransom for a week only offers a temporary reprieve. Expect more of such "mobilisations".
As recently as March 29, the Supreme Court had said:

"Nowhere else in the world do castes, classes or communities queue up for the sake of gaining backward status. Nowhere else in the world is there competition to assert backwardness and then to claim we are more backward than you....the creamy layer rule is a necessary bargain between the competing ends of caste based reservations and the principle of secularism."

But our netas of course would rather mouth platitudes about social justice and get all hot and bothered about the 'interventionist courts' while doing exactly what the Supreme Court was constrained to highlight as a warning once again: "Don't divide the country only because of your vote banks"

This of course was about the Other Backward Classes (OBC) quotas that our worthy Human Resources Development (HRD) minister had sprung out of the box last year. The last one week's whole sordid spectacle has perhaps just been a small trailer of the worst fears of all those who have been warning the consequences of this very caste-based reservation that need a complete re-look and overhaul rather than its perpetuation by a cynical political class. It was not without any reason that the founding fathers of the Constitution had suggested reservation only for 10 years.

The absurdity of the 'social-justice' argument to classify and reclassify communities and castes is brought out starkly by the current crisis in Rajasthan which has been festering since 1999 when the relatively well-off Jats - who form about one-fifth of Rajasthan's population and control the state's transport and agriculture - were included in the OBC list in the state by the BJP before the crucial 1999 Lok Sabha elections. That it is all a numbers-game and only those resentments get exploited which can be channelised and mobilised into a loud enough protest is brought out by the fact that while the Jats cornered the majority of benefits under the OBC category meant for 80 diverse groups, it was the most electorally significant group of Gujjars who were egged on to clamour for reclassification as STs.

It is not to suggest that the Gujjars do not have some validity to their demand - after all there is no reason why Meenas should be ST in Rajasthan, but not the Gujjars. In fact, the whole sorry spectacle only underlines the sheer absurdity of how the politicians have played with caste and identity politics, a sad example of the ugly underbelly of grass-roots democracy in which only the numerically significant groups get counted, and not the truly disadvantaged. Thus, while communities like Meenas went from high caste, to "criminal tribe" in the British times to ST, or the Jats who are now OBC, or Gujjars who now want to be STs from OBCs, there are a whole lot of "denotified tribes" (formerly the "criminal tribes" in British times) such as Sansis, Kanjars, Banjaras, Kalandars, Kalbelias who lack the numbers so necessary for a political bargain. It is not exactly ironical that just before violence erupted on May 29, the Brahmins and Rajputs had also been renewing their demands for reservations on economic-criteria, but when did you hear of any protest from any of the denotified tribes?

That the violence spiralled out of control to engulf the neighbouring UP, Haryana, Delhi and Madhya Pradesh only shows the utter incapacity of the various Frankensteins to control the monsters of their making. The crisis once again brings into sharp focus the ghastly re-runs of what seems to have become an inevitable outcome whenever it comes to the state deploying police and other security forces to deal with large-scale protests: :an unusually high number of cases of deaths as a result of police firing. The folly of 1999 by the BJP could have been mitigated if the saner heads among our political class had tried defusing the resulting agitation. Instead, resentments, very real and perceived, were allowed to simmer and given the blatant downward regression let loose since - at the central level led by our redoubtable HRD minister and his various counterparts in Rajasthan and other states - it was inevitable that things would come to the sorry pass they did, when the crying need of the hour was evolving a consensus on relooking at caste-based reservations itself.

In this context, the fact that the agitation was called off today with the Rajasthan government agreeing to set up a high-power committee headed by a retired High Court judge to examine the Gujjar demand for ST status does not really offer more hope than a temporary reprieve. Because there seems no realisation of the fact that no matter what the "high-powered" committee comes up with as its recommendation, the incident would only signal a rising recurrence of such "agitations" wherever any significant number of people can be "mobilised" to protest. What is required, clearly, is a total rethink on the very system of reservations on which these contested and charged battles are being fought.

Time Line

June 4:

  • The week-long violent agitation by Gujjars that resulted in 26 deaths in Rajasthan is called off after the Rajasthan government agrees to set up a high-power committee headed by a retired High Court judge to examine their demand for Scheduled Tribe status. The three-member committee, which will examine the norms laid down for Gujjars in their current status in the OBC category and consider their representation for inclusion in the ST list, is to submit its report to the state government in three months.

  • Gujjar leader Col Kirori Singh Bainsla apologises for the chaos and violence over the past week: "If members of the public were inconvenienced because of our agitation, I sincerely apologise... I, from the inner core of the heart, express my apology to those killed and their relatives".

  • Meena community leader and Rajasthan minister Kirori Lal Meena also expresses satisfaction with the breakthrough, saying ''There will be peace in Rajasthan due to this breakthrough... The government has told us they will not send a letter recommending ST status for Gujjars and they have not".

  • Normal life is affected in several parts of Delhi as Gujjars torch and damage buses, pelt stones at police and lay siege to all major roads leading to the national capital during a day-long shutdown. Police arrests 37 persons and detains at least 20 others on charges of rioting and destruction of public property and registers two cases against them in Mehrauli and Khajoori Khas localities.

  • At least 24 train passengers, including two drivers, are injured when Gujjar agitators pelt stones at two trains in Mathura.

  • In separate statements, prominent Jat community leaders, including Bharat Kisan Union leader Mahendra Singh Tikait, announce their support to the Gujjar movement saying their demands are "justified".

June 3

  • Rajasthan Panchayati Raj Minister Kalu Ram Gurjar, along with six ruling party MLAs of Gurjar community, meet BJP chief Rajnath Singh to seek BJP high command's intervention.

  • Congress MP from Dausa Sachin Pilot and other Gujjar leaders meet BJP president Rajnath Singh urging him to direct Rajasthan Chief Minister Vasundhara Raje to immediately take all steps to restore peace and order and stop ''atrocities'' on agitating Gujjars.

  • The Rajasthan government extends the National Security Act to Pali, Alwar and Churu districts of the state.

  • Leader of Opposition L K Advani demands an all party meeting to decide the parameters on which a community should come under any caste or tribe category.

June 2

  • The fifth round of talks between Vasundhara Raje and Gujjar Sangarsh Samiti fails even as the Chief Minister announces an ex-gratia of Rs five lakh to the next of the kin of the victims of police firings. It is the first time that Chief Minister participates in talks with the Gujjars.

  • Rajasthan ministers belonging to the Meena caste led by Relief Minister K.L.Meena hold discussion with BJP vice president Gopinath Munde in Jaipur and threaten to quit if the Gujjar's demands are accepted .

  • Rail traffic in western Uttar Pradesh is severely hit as slogan-shouting Gujjars squat on railway tracks and damage them. Half-a-dozen shops are set ablaze in Meerut.

  • The stringent National Security Act (NSA) is imposed in Bharatpur, Dausa, Karauli, Sawai Madhopur, Tonk, Bundi, Kota, Baran, Jhalawar, Ajmer and Jaipur districts for three months that were badly hit by Gurjar-Meena clashes. Under the Act, district authorities are empowered to arrest without warrant those indulging in arson.

  • Senior Army officers of the Army carry out an aerial survey of Bharatpur, Dholpur, Alwar, Dausa, Karauli, Sawai Madhopur, Jaipur rural, Kota and Tonk districts to assess the situation and review traffic movements.

  • Prime Minister Manmohan Singh hold a meeting with senior BJP leaders L K Advani and Jaswant Singh and issues an appeal to people to "desist from actions which may lead to further violence" and that the "events of the past few days in parts of Rajasthan have caused a great deal of pain and distress to large numbers of people... Sadly, many lives have been lost, plunging their families into grief".

  • The Union Home Ministry sends a new advisory to the Rajasthan government asking it to initiate dialogue with eminent persons from both Gujjar and Meena communities for restoration of peace.

  • BJP chief Rajnath Singh rules out the possibility of replacement of Chief Minister Vasundhra Raje after open criticism from party leaders like Jaswant Singh and Saheb Singh Verma. The RSS also defends Raje with an article in its mouthpiece Organiser blaming the Rajasthan police solely for the caste clashes saying "the Gujjar agitation in Rajasthan would not have gone out of control but for the brute police action.... The police could have handled the situation with more patience and finesse". It further adds that the "Rajasthan police has an unenviable reputation of being trigger-happy. It is high time trigger-happy Rajasthan police started mending its ways."


  • After four days of disruptions, normal train services are resumed on the Delhi-Mumbai route via Gangapur city and Amritsar-Mumbai Central Golden Temple Mail become the first train to hit the tracks on the route since May 29. A batch of 1,000 stranded bus passengers leave Jaipur under tight security.

  • Union Home Ministry enhances the security to Congress MP from Dausa, Sachin Pilot, to 'Z' Category from 'X' Category.

  • The fourth round of talks between the four-member ministerial committee of the Rajasthan government and Gujjar leaders fails but both sides agree to meet again in presence of the Chief Minister. One of the Gujjar representatives claims that the state home minister G.C. Kataria had assured them of a recommendation letter on the ST status but due to stiff opposition from Meena MLAs and ministers, the government has "developed cold feet".

  • Five persons are killed and 20 injured as thousands of Meena and Gujjar community members clash at Lalsot in Dausa where Gujjars were holding a demonstration in the Meena-dominated area. Nearly 30 houses belonging to Gujjars are also allegedly burnt down by members of the Meena community.

June 1

  • Shoot-at-sight orders are issued against rioters in Sawai Madhopur and Bharatpur districts. A bandh, called in support of the Gujjars' demand, is observed in Tonk, Alwar, Nagaur, Bhilwara, Ajmer, Churu, Baran, Chittorgarh, Jhunjhunu, Karauli, Rajsamand, Sikar, Jaipur rural areas and Jhalawar.

  • The Delhi-Jaipur National Highway 8, which was blockaded by the agitating Gujjars since May 29, is opened to traffic with the Army and para-military forces providing security.

  • The University of Rajasthan postpones examinations on June one and two in view of agitation.

  • Armed Meena community members organises a Mahapanchayat in Nangal Pyaribaas in Dausa district and threaten the state government and Gujjars that if the National Highways would not be opened the Meenas would intervene and open the Highways.

  • Gujjars in Haryana, Punjab, Madhya Pradesh and Delhi protests police action against their community in Rajasthan by blocking roads and burning effigies of Vasundhara Raje.

May 31

  • The first two rounds of Gujjar-Rajsathan government meeting held in Dausa fails. Gujjars demand withdrawal of cases registered against them in connection with violence in the state.

  • Four protesters killed in police firing in Sawai Madhopur and Jaipur districts. Incidents of arson, stone pelting and clashes with police are reported from Ajmer, Pushkar, Alwar, Bharatpur, Chittorgarh, Tonk, Kota, Dholpur, Bundi and areas adjoining the state capital as violent protests spreads.

  • An all-party meeting convened by the state government appeals to the agitating Gujjars and their leaders to restore peace in the state.

  • The BJP rules out change of guard in Rajasthan saying Vasundhara Raje government has done a good job by setting up a cabinet sub-committee on the Gujjars' issue and asking 33 district collectors to prepare a fresh status report of the community which is privileged in the OBC category.

  • Congress MP Sachin Pilot meets Home Minister Shivraj Patil and demands imposition of President's rule in the state for its "callous" attitude in handling the issue. The Home Minsitry alerts Delhi, Haryana and Uttar Pradesh governments to beef up security so that violence does not spread to these states having a sizeable Gujjar population.

May 30

  • One more person is killed and five are injured in police firing in Rajasthan's Bayana town n Bharatpur district where Gujjars torch several government buildings, including a courtroom and offices of a power station, sub-divisional magistrate and a civic body. Two columns comprising 200 personnel of the Army are later called out to assist the civil administration in Bayana. Two police stations are also set ablaze in Dubi and Sikandra in worst-hit Dausa district where agitators continued the blockade of Jaipur-Agra highway for the second day from Pipalkhera to Pachroli in neighbouring Karuli district.

  • The government's bid to restore normalcy by offering to hold talks with representatives of the Gurjar Reservation Sangharsh Samiti leaders, including Col. Kirori Singh Bainsla, fails to take off as.

  • Rajasthan Panchayati Raj Minister K L Gurjar and five Gujjar MLAs of the ruling BJP offer to resign in the wake of agitation and violence on the issue of grant of Scheduled Tribe status to the community.

  • The Congress party tries to avoid demanding imposition of President's rule in Rajasthan with AICC spokesperson Jayanti Natarajan saying ST status for Gujjars is a "serious and complicated issue and there is no piecemeal solution of this issue".
  • The dead body of one the two policemen, who went missing during a clash in Dausa district, is found while the other other returns safely.

May 29: At least 13 people, including a policeman, are killed and at least 100 injured in clashes and police firing in Dausa, Karauli and Bundi districts of Rajasthan during protests by the Gujjar community demanding Scheduled Tribe status.

 
Daily Mail
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Jun 13, 2007 12:00 AM
72
Socialist Congress along with their filthy Communist allies, in pursuit of their own narrow agenda, are hell-bent on desrtoying the country, and especially all traces of its Hindu culture - and they are close to succeeding.
The greatest evil to befall this poor divided land has been the Congress party and it's filthy leaders - they will not stop until they've destroyed India's Hindu culture, and remake it in the image of the 'superior' Judeo-Christian religion, using caste as their most potent weapon, being the volatile and explosive issue that it is.
Bodh
Springfield, United States
Jun 11, 2007 12:00 AM
71
>> A Brahmin enclave in Dravida Tamil Nadu - IIT Madras. This is an example of what happens when reservation is not implemented. Upper castes make place their paradise, and nightmare for lower castes.

Yes we should shut down IITs, and IIMs and also other brahmin dens like Infosys and TVS. They can go give their jobs to the Chinese and the American. After all, who cares what happens to India and Indians? We are cushily settled in the US without any reservations. It makes sense that fellow caste members in India should rise up fight so that you can share proud stories about the fighting nature of my caste with the American ladies over a latte in starbucks. You have worked really hard to get all th way to America and hence it is only fair that a few Indians should die so you can get laid.
vijay
Chennai, India
Jun 11, 2007 12:00 AM
70
An Extract from a YFE blog. from a Poor Brahmin.

In the Name of doin' social justice just see what the Congis' Quota regime has achieved in this six decades.

1. Mis-use of the reservations right from Kindergarden application forms till the promotions in the reserved Govt. jobs.
2. Repeated use of the same family again and again actually keeping the really deserved ones still poor and needing a support.
3. An Effective Divide & rule with none of the really deserving ones actually benifitted from it, but keeping the Congis' vote bank intact.
4. Ethnic Cleansing of Forward castes, we all know that the Brahmin population is slowly coming down mainly in the South.
5. Brain drain of all talented resources from the country.
6. Brain drain of all talented resources in one field doing a menial job in some other irrelevent field.
Narayan
Zurich, Switzerland
Jun 10, 2007 12:00 AM
69
Who is a lower caste today??? One who sits in America and sermonises should know better. Is this man who enjoys the richness of America a lower caste? 80 per cent of the Brahmins are beggars and yet they are called upper caste. While Karunanidhi rascal, who should actually be in jail for his multi-crore fraud in Veranam water project fro bringing drinking water to the city of Chennai, and whose assets total over Rs 2100 crores is termed backward. WHEN WILL THIS PERVERSION OF DOWNPLAYING A RICH BACKWARD END???????
shakeel
hyderabad, India
Jun 09, 2007 12:00 AM
68
A Brahmin enclave in Dravida Tamil Nadu - IIT Madras.
This is an example of what happens when reservation is not implemented. Upper castes make place their paradise, and nightmare for lower castes.


http://www.tehelka.com/...=Ne160607Dalits_not.asp


It's time to stop funding to these institutes and dismantle centres of shame.
Rajesh
Phoenix, United States
Jun 08, 2007 12:00 AM
67
I have not understood what or who is an OBC. For last 30 years I have been watching BCs getting reservation. If so who are these OBCs? Are they a different avatar of BCs. Or is it a new breed?
Can the traitors Arjun Singh, VP Singh or Vajpayee and their mentors or those petty traitors like Paswans, Sharad Yadavs and Meiras explain it to me.
I ask the Supreme Court of India to do something before this country goes fully to the dogs
shakeel
hyderabad, India
Jun 08, 2007 12:00 AM
66
Ash/Muhammed/Minu,

>> "Allah believer" is appreciating George's areligous and possibly atheistic post when it suits him.

I have said several times that I respect people of all beliefs, including atheists and agnostics. My problem is with hate spewing bigots. Nonreligious and atheistic people are not that.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 08, 2007 12:00 AM
65
Ganpat evil and stupidity are not unrelated or independent.Look at Faruk and his ilk.Evil is often the result of stupidity.Though it can also be the result of what we call cunning and intelligence.

Farukism//think again. "Hate Muslims" is you religion and you are a fanatic believer!

Look who is talking.The guy who shamelessly follows a religion founded 1300 yrs ago based solely on hatred of nonmuslims who had to be converted or slayed by the sword.

This evil idiot does not see any contradiction in himself and his posts here.

ash
san diego, United States
Jun 08, 2007 12:00 AM
64
Faruk posts a response to my post to George

Ash/Muhammed/Minu,

Ash>> George to be fair you should also cc this post to muslims,who need it with all letters in super caps.

Farauk//If anyone can debase George's fine post, it is you. If you think you can classify yourself as being free from religion, think again. "Hate Muslims" is you religion and you are a fanatic believer!
GHULAM Y FARUKI
NEW YORK UNITED STATES
06:46:40AM (IST)

This is vintage Farukism,which is a euphimism for slithery snakism

This religous fanatic "Allah believer" is appreciating George's areligous and possibly atheistic post when it suits him.

This guy has so much hate against anyone, who he believes is against islam and its barbarism and savagery .

Just like he hates BJP and Hindus.And he is willing to gang up with areligous atheists,just like this communist-islamist ganged with satan bush when he denied modi a visa.

What a low form of life.The lowest in fact.

Cant blame himm.Brains were mortgaged to mullahs at birth.

ash
san diego, United States
Jun 08, 2007 12:00 AM
63
Ash/Muhammed/Minu,

>> George to be fair you should also cc this post to muslims,who need it with all letters in super caps.

If anyone can debase George's fine post, it is you. If you think you can classify yourself as being free from religion, think again. "Hate Muslims" is you religion and you are a fanatic believer!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 08, 2007 12:00 AM
62
George writes//Mr. Chaitanya, why you want to call yourself a Hindu? Why you can't be a human being instead of being a Hindu or Christian or Muslim. Get out of your religion first instead of talking about Brahmin or non-brahmin. What you are going to get by identifying with any religion? If man can be identified by religion, then why we can't identify even the virus, bacteria, worms, animals, plants in the name of religion. Think man, and get out of opium of religion and become a thinking human being.
GEORGE JAMES
VIRAR INDIA
04:38:26PM (IST)

My take

George to be fair you should also cc this post to
muslims,who need it with all letters in super caps(ordinary cap key will not do) because of their religion only obsession.


Otherwise you run the risk of being labeled a treacherous,hypocritical hindu-hating psecularist.

And rightly so.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 08, 2007 12:00 AM
61
ganpat and george.

like me both of you seem to be rationalists.

the only reason i consider myself to be an agnostic is because such a word exists.And it also
lets me reason that i do not know everything to be sure that he does not exist,though there is more evidence to suggest he does not than that he does.

But i uderstand the psychological need the concept of God satisfies in Mankind.

To me mother Nature is the closest there is to GOD.And offers enough proof for her existence.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 08, 2007 12:00 AM
60
In response to Raj: regarding purification of guruvayur temple after Vayalar Ravi's entry, preventing Jesu Das' entry etc.

In my opinion, the priests of Guruvayur and Puri etc are insulting God Vishnu of the hindus in two ways:

1]. To say that the blessing power of naaraayana can get reduced because of some non-hindu entering the temple and that mantras of these priests can restore it shows their lack of faith in the Absolute powers of their Lord;

2]. Krishna Himself has said in the Geeta that, wherever/whenever any worship is done by any one with faith and humility, be it for Siva or vishnu, Mary or Allah, He Himself responds in full measure.

The religious leadership of hindu temples should move into more spiritual and philosophical hands from the ritual-minded priests.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jun 08, 2007 12:00 AM
59
Rajesh writes

Re: Murder case filed against Gujjar leader ..

This is knee jurk reaction of Rajasthan
government


Rajesh


Reply.


The court took cognizance and ordered the govts to act.The court said that is is a national shame that people were shamelessly and proudly engaging in vandalism sometimes even to show off before the media cameras.


Rajesh,do you have to wear blinkers all the time.
Please at least update your knowledge with the help of the news and current events.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 07, 2007 12:00 AM
58
George James,

Ramayan was written by a low caste dacoit - Valmik. Indian people respect valmik but are casteist at the same time and most of the castes hate one or the other caste. Contradictions abound in everyday life of India. You see me posting something against brahmin.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Jun 07, 2007 12:00 AM
57
I was not exactly referring to sati, dowry when i was referring to traditions. I identify with ram from northern India taking help from vanar sena - which though might be a crude joke at us south indians as monkey looking people - going after ravan to fulfill his dharma. Ravan is the villain but he is portrayed very elegantly as a penancing brahmin and brave warrior who honours sita even after all the insults are hurled at him by her. Ramayan is most known story across India and it might be myth afterall but it's part of everyday folklore for us. Ashoka repenting the devastation he caused on kalinga people and taking oath to reject war by baptising himself to buddhism to spread it's message far and wide. Akbar embracing different religions though he is a muslim from barbaric race of uzbekistan. I guess this is the kind of stuff Indian nation is made of and Hindu people nurture it's tolerance values. India is made of people, with some exceptions, most of whom have been living in India for atleast thousands if not millions of years and that brings a race factor to Indian nation. Gandhi was a racist and he preferred Indians over african blacks in south africa and there are articles which do tell about gandhi's apathy towards blacks and other races. That is Gandhi for you - a bigot. But we Indians see him as the most liberal, all embracing representation of ideal human being.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Jun 07, 2007 12:00 AM
56
Mr. Chaitanya, here we are not discussing the pros and cons of religion and atheism. All I am trying to say is that more crimes have been committed in the name of religion. Name even one religion that is not guilty of it over the ages. India has so many religions and castes and creeds that no one system can ever bring together except the idea of being Indians first and anything else latter which includes their own religions. That will be the real bed rock of progress of our nation.

Atheism by itself is not wrong. Because if it was so then Russia would never have become a super power. Because they believed in human actions more than just blind belief in God. Where they could blame everything on faith and God. Hitler was not an atheist and yet he brought suffering to millions of Jews in the name of religion only. The reason for India’s misery is religion only. In India only we can see people worship anything anywhere, there is not even small iota of intelligence is there in our people. All this caste system also came out because of religion only. What the traditions you are talking about? Did this traditions stopped us from becoming most corrupt country in the world? Did this traditions stopped us from becoming most populated, unhealthy, superstitious, taking bath in gutter water (kumbha melas)? I don’t want to join any community, I just don’t belong to any religion. I want betterment of humanity, for which, all divisions should go away. If we have to progress we should leave all the past including Religion, Caste, unwanted stupid traditions. Please clarify me about your tradition more. Are you talking about the tradition of Sati (wife was put in the fire along with dead husband)? Or taking dowry for marriages? Or killing female infant in birth? Or worshipping the non-speaking idols? Or killing animals for the offering of Gods? Or making woman as devadasis for temples? If this all your tradition, then I agree you have great tradition.
george james
Virar, India
Jun 07, 2007 12:00 AM
55
George James,

I believe Indian nation borrows a lot of it's national content from ancient traditions(where religion plays a major part) that bear common thread to diverse people of India and that is the only bed rock which can evolve and preserve Indian nationhood.

You should join the community of atheists and anarchists which are plenty in number across the world and there are many atheists in India too. Parthasarathy is your reference in this forum who posts anti-religion like you do. I am not exactly the kind of atheist you are looking for your search from "barbarian to human being" which you think can be achieved only when religions are done away with. Like Stalinist Russia, Mao's China.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Jun 07, 2007 12:00 AM
54
Mr. Chaitanya, although I born in Christian Catholic family, I don't belong to any religion. You please tell me what is the use of religion? Is it doing any good to humanity? I am again asking you why we can't be normal human beings? If religion goes only, castes also will go away. So let we start a movement to make all human beings without religion. Will you join me?
george james
Virar, India
Jun 07, 2007 12:00 AM
53
George James,

I don't know what you are upto. You have a christian ID, and i will suppose you are a christian unless clarified otherwise. When i say i am against brahmin institution, i just mean the obscurantist part of it, and i have every right to point at the wrongs in it being a Hindu myself. I don't see any reason why a konkan christian should get involved in it.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Jun 07, 2007 12:00 AM
52
Mr. Chaitanya has asked "And any brahmin poster preaching crap about someone being brahmin through deeds and not birth doesn't make any sense to me."

My reply to Chaitanya is "you are nothing but nonsense and you have not realised the real significance of the matter." Let be yourself, like the frog in the well.
george james
Virar, India
Jun 07, 2007 12:00 AM
51
Fair system,

I don't see anypoint in replying to a despicable character like you twisting my name in your last post and if that is the nature of your arguement skills, you must visit kindergarten and play with the little kids. You are too meek to be a brahmin and insult to the rest of the brahmins when you don't have the nerve to post with a name and instead calls him/herself "Fair System" and goes on abusing the rest with incoherent posts. I don't see any wrong in expressing anger at brahminical institution when most of the guys posting here do the same against Islam and Muhammed to extreme standards and i don't have any issues with that either. This will be my last post to you.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Jun 07, 2007 12:00 AM
50
Mr. Chaitanya, why you want to call yourself a Hindu? Why you can't be a human being instead of being a Hindu or Christian or Muslim. Get out of your religion first instead of talking about Brahmin or non-brahmin. What you are going to get by identifying with any religion? If man can be identified by religion, then why we can't identify even the virus, bacteria, worms, animals, plants in the name of religion. Think man, and get out of opium of religion and become a thinking human being.
george james
Virar, India
Jun 07, 2007 12:00 AM
49
In general,

There are shudras, who can be considered backward caste in a hindu cultural perspective but forward caste in class status in a politico-socio-economic field. Gowdas, vokkaligas, lingayats were all shudras according to chaturvarna. Most of the kingdoms in south india were ruled by shudras in ancient times(even many other parts of india) who belong to ruling class at one time and recede to menial jobs at other times.

If a guy identifies himself as brahmin, others can muscle him when most of the others were designated as shudra and have to identify themselves as such to harass the brahmin when a brahmin still calls himself brahmin. Upper caste is supposed to mean kshatriya and vaishya to an extent but these days one cannot classify castes as kshatriya or vaishya when people are exposing themselves new paradigms that are churned in other parts of the world which have been influencing India and are constantly redifining the heirarchial structures of society in India.

The forward castes in one state might be backward caste in other states. The hegde brahmins are forward caste in Karnataka but backward caste in Tamil nadu. The gowds are forward caste in Karnataka but backward caste in Andhra. The mudaliyars are forward caste in TN but backward caste in Andhra. Deva Gowda, a vokkaliga has gowda last name which is the same with many other sub castes of vokkaligas as it is for lingayats of many variations. Most of the forward castes of today belong to shudravarna.

I hail from Andhra and brahmins mean nothing there. No brahmins anywhere in the scene in politics/culture/economic field. Brahmins mean practical non-entities in Rajasthan/Bihar/Andhra and these three states send most non-brahmin candidates in open category to government managed institutions like Civil services/IIT's/IIM's(the topper this time to Civil services in open category is a poor shudra from Andhra). That tells how brahmins retarded the emanicipation in education to the rest of the people in other states. Wily Vultures! The bhumihar brahmins of Bihar, the vishwakarmas of Andhra, the dwigas of Rajasthan who earlier wielded a lot of muscle in society and education, have been degrading as a community for the past many years due to reasons of other castes taking to education seriously.

What's the point in brahmins giving a call for hindu unity and dismantling of caste structures when these very same brahmins assert that caste identity more pertinently than any other group. I see myself as hindu, just like many other non-brahmins when it comes to chaturvarna unlike the brahmins who still want to be called as brahmins after all the divisions they did in India. Brahmins are funnily caricatured in the movies, newspapers, books, and other media outlets in south india and that will repeat itself elsewhere too as the rest prosper. The simple reason why the brahmin kind will be persecuted is because they call themselves brahmin and that tells a lot about their despicable nature towards rest of hindus.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Jun 07, 2007 12:00 AM
48
Chaitnya,

As I have told you earlier, anger is masking what is left of your rational thinking.

Gowdas and Lingayats are uppercaste man, they dont enjoy reservation.

Even in UP, the so called mayavati revolution needed a Brahmin to succeed. Right Chitanya?

I have nothing against non brahmins. My issues are with people like you, rabids, who froth in the mouth in misplaced anger.

How long does it take a brain to completely decompose? You are working at it..all the very best.
fairsystem
Bangalore, India
Jun 07, 2007 12:00 AM
47
I have not understood what or who is an OBC. For last 30 years I have been watching BCs getting reservation. If so who are these OBCs? Are they a different avatar of BCs. Or is it a new breed?
Can the traitors Arjun Singh, VP Singh or Vajpayee and their mentors or those petty traitors Paswans, Sharad Yadavs and Meiras explain it to me.
I ask the Supreme Court of India to do something before this country goes to dogs.
shakeel
hyderabad, India
Jun 07, 2007 12:00 AM
46
Re: Murder case filed against Gujjar leader ..

This is knee jurk reaction of Rajasthan government. They just don't know what to do.
Or may be this what they are used to do. Rajasthan leads the country in feudalism. By implicating opposition clearly shows this mindset.

Oops, I got it wrong. This trick is patented by Congress. See how they implicated top leadership of UP, Mulayam and Mayawati, in corruption case!!!
BJP is just following Congress footstep with more vigour.
Rajesh
Phoenix, United States
Jun 07, 2007 12:00 AM
45
Parbat this is hilarious.I got my quota of medicine laughter for the whole day,thanks to you

Your post is below.

Ghulam, Muntajib:

I am surpised to find you two referring to Muhammad as "she"?

Was then Muhammad a woman? What is your evidence for this? I have been reading about Muhammad and all the texts I know say Muhammad was a man.

If you have fresh evidence on this, do share it.
PARBAT LALDENG
DENVER UNITED STATES
09:55:03PM (IST)

ash
san diego, United States
Jun 07, 2007 12:00 AM
44
Murder case filed against Gujjar leaders

Yeah, take out the LEADERSHIP! Better, bump him off! I wonder how many murder charges were filed against other leaders when people died elsewhere in the history of independent India. These b@stards do not amaze me any more. The poor constable who died was some 'Ram' (another low caste, I'm sure) But the "Purohits of India" always use the shoulders of another low caste to shoot their guns. The sad part is, the low caste earth worms still do not have the survival instinct to live a life with respect. They continue to accept the society that treats them like 5th class members of the society. LMAO!!!



Jaipur: Gujjar leader Col (Retd) Kirori Singh Bainsala, who spearheaded a weeklong violent agitation in Rajasthan to press the community's demand for ST status, has been charged with murder and criminal conspiracy.

Inspector general of police (Bharatpur range) Hemant Purohit said a case of murder (under section 302 of IPC) and conspiracy (section 120B) and other cases relating to destruction of national property were registered against Bainsala, Roop Singh and eight other members of Aarakshan Sangarsh Samiti in Karauli district of the state.

Purohit told PTI over phone on Wednesday that the cases were registered at Lalsot police station on May 29.

Bainsala, convenor of the Samiti, and Roop Singh were booked under section 302 and 120 of the IPC in connection with the killing of Dungra Ram, a Rajasthan Armed Constabulary man, during clashes between Gujjars and police on May 29 when protestors organised a road blockade at Todadhim.
Raj
Chicago, United States
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
43
Parbat/Abdullah,

>> I am surpised to find you two referring to Muhammad as "she".

You are not!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
42
Ghulam, Muntajib:

I am surpised to find you two referring to Muhammad as "she"?

Was then Muhammad a woman? What is your evidence for this? I have been reading about Muhammad and all the texts I know say Muhammad was a man.

If you have fresh evidence on this, do share it.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
41
Your comment:"...the incident would only signal a rising recurrence of such "agitations" wherever any significant number of people can be "mobilised" to protest. What is required, clearly, is a total rethink on the very system of reservations on which these contested and charged battles are being fought." Are you suggesting that a "total rethink" (if it means end reservations) will not result in agitations?
As to the gujjar agitation, I am surprised it took such a long time for them to agitate.

On a related note, OBC and ST are two different issues. OBC are Hindus, ST are those who did not become Hindu and were ostracised by the Hindus.

Jaipat S. Jain
mycable
new york, United States
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
40
I don't agree with Periyar regarding anti-hindu worship and his mistakes like getting his ideals aligned with influential OBC groups which made the dalits left out to a great extent. Chennai is a metro. I don't expect all residents in Mumbai to be maharashtrians.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
39
Not to forget the gowds, gounders, naidus, mudaliyars and host others...
chaitanya
chennai, India
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
38
Fair system,

"I mean look at any top position, either in private sector or public sector. You will find an Iyer, an Iyenagar, a Smarta or a Maadhva."

Shudra communities are picking up too. You will find vokkaligas, thevars, reddies, kammas, rajus, chettiars, pillais, lingayats, nadars dominating the positions in many public and private sector entities. They have taken to books later than you guys and will dominate every sector before you know it. If something goes wrong due to brahmin foul play, might will work in south india. Everyone has a vote these days and probably a book and pen too. It's not the good old days where brahmin dictates some mantra and others repeat it. You do what we tell you to do.

It's irrelevant if i am from TN or not to the discussion. I can tell you that shudras in UP have not got any good impression about brahmins neither they do in Punjab, Rajasthan, West Bengal, Bihar etc. The shudras are a prospering community and they are the ones who are going to define the middle class image of India along with dalit to an extent, with brahmin reduced to the fringes. For a fact, TN and south india in general, pick the revolutionary mood of the masses decades before others do going by the trend since independence. Where are you from? Karnataka? Lingayats and Vokkaligas rule there and you brahmins amount to nothing in south india.


"I hope this will sink into your decomposing brain!!!"

I hope you shut your dirty trap.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
37
Caste will eventually be the likely reason we hit a cap on our progress. And I hope before that happens the modern processes of democracy and industrialization might just finally break the back of the "casteist" mindset of Indians and free us from this mess .... everyone seems to stuck in a complex web of superior-inferior and unable to break free.

"Reservations" is just such a bad solution .... but then I say well isn't todays reservation better than the 100% reservation of the original caste structure.

Recently, I read somewhere Azim Premji pointing out that we Indians (and maybe the disease afflicts subcontinentals as a whole) create new castes everyday and then sub-castes in them too .... I guess in Bangalore the newest caste is "techies" with subcastes like "IIT techies", and yhe myraid "xIT techies".

Can a new Indian come about .... free of caste? I keep asking can my son/daughter be that Indian. I keep waffling between the possibilities from the grand churn of democracy, and ndustrialization to the impossibilities given the need for vote banks within a democracy.
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
36
Poor Chaitanya, your anger is making you froth in the mouth, like a rabid dog!!!

Are you from Tamil Nadu? Since the people who follow that periyar only can talk shit like this!!!

Gone are the days when Brahmins not resorting to violence you poor chap, they can also answer back in violence if need arises. Also your dream of millions of hindus marching to the drum beats of some nonsense what you wrote will remain only in your dreams. 50 years of periyar teachings have not reduced the importance of brahmins in TN, has it? I mean look at any top position, either in private sector or public sector. You will find an Iyer, an Iyenagar, a Smarta or a Maadhva. This has not been gifted to them on platter, atleast not in the post independent India. You know how it was achieved? Thru sheer hard work. Thru the use of something called Brains. the children of these highly placed officers will also work equally work hard to attain what their parents have acheived. they too will be success in life.

there is another simple reason for this, Chaitanya, if you care to notice. Begging and alms will only take you to a certain distance. To complete the race you must have the courage and conviction to compete. You know as much as I hate Mr.Raja of Communist party for his political views, i equally admire him because what he has acheived is truly admirable. From virtually no body, thru sheer hardwork and brains he has become a MP. This is the key ingredient which is missing in those who beg for reservation and accept the alms given to them.

I hope this will sink into your decomposing brain!!!
fairsystem
Bangalore, India
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
35
Hemanand,

Your anti-muslim and anti-christian rhetoric is of no importance when you don't mention the flaws in brahminism with equal vigour. I have never called for a revenge against any brahmin, but will put a brahmin in his right place if he goes over the board and abuses me. You will understand revenge when your feet starts shaking with nervousness at the sight of the vast majority of hindus that are shudra and dalit march in unison followed by the drum beats of millenial gievances and start revolting against the brahmin institution. What i post amounts to nothing of that sort and so don't take it by heart when i only post for the causes of majorty hindus unlike you who is so much interested in protecting the corrupt brahmins by diverting the discussion to muslim and christian. Islam and Christianity are major worries to you as it is for me. I have posted against the muslim and christian aggression just so many times in this forum and will continue to. But brahmin institution needs to be dealt eqally.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
34
Hemanand:

"i am proud to be a brahmin because i have good views, certainly better than you."

Words mean nothing. Deeds do and your brahmin ancestors have a terrible record in that respect who created untouchables. And you call yourselves a brahmin simply because of that ancestry. The theory of brahmin values are impressive, but the brahmins digress from what is to be practiced. It's a matter of trust and you need to take a really hard look at the current brahmin institution and take a longer walk than i have to, to build the necessary amount of trust to call yourselves a good brahmin. A Shudra like me fighting against corrupt brahmin institution in it's true practice means a lot good than you doing any good for hindus by being a brahmin through inheritance that has been made of people who divided Hindus into caste, sub caste.. ad infinitum.


"you can attain the status of a brahmin by changing your views towards other human being."

I have no intention of getting proselytised by you to a brahmin. It's about safety and security of life and property for a many generations ahead and shudra seems like a secure bet in hindu ladder in what is a largely Hindu nation filled with lot of frustrated and deprived people(ever growing by the day), culturally and socially, who might revolt against the traditional practices. Being a shudra, no Hindu will revolt against me due to reasons pertaining to religious discrimination unlike a Brahmin who might face the wrath of a dalit or shudra anytime, anywhere. So that makes me secured and i am content with it. The only way i am going to be stabbed in the same way brahmin will get stabbed is if the criteria for revolt is class instead of caste, but that seems too distant prospect to worry about it when caste is so entangled with class and when the former dominates the latter in an all pervading way. And you make it seem like the brahmins of today are a great bunch of people with good morals. All the benevolent brahmins are most likely mythical constructions. Ashoka, Narayana Guru, Vivekananda are for real whose relics you can touch and feel that are full with life and they are shudra.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
33
Chaitanya,

If you look at the history of reservations, one thing becomes clear. The system of reservations has benefitted only a select few and they continue to get the benefits for their future generations too.

If a particular caste is oppressed for a long time, what makes them fight with another caste? They should be in a better position to empathise with other castes which have been oppressed because they themselves know the pain of oppression. Is this happening? A very clear NO. So why blame brahmins for all the stupidities of these people??

Again, in the metros of our country, no one is really bothered about which caste a person belongs to. There is equal opportunity for all. With the economy opening up, the opportunities for self employment is HUGE. Have these people even thought about it? Have the so called educated people from these backward castes done anything to guide others in this regard? No. Everybody is happy if they get a piece of bread from the government. They wait for it like dogs.

This is the harsh reality of our country today.
fairsystem
Bangalore, India
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
32
How about this idea:
We know for a fact that anything the government touches turns to dust while the private sector often does a better job of many things.

Why not leverage the energies of the private sector to alleviate the caste problem?

Setup a fund that will pay out 1 Crore to any coaching center that can coach an SC/ST student to get into an IIT ON MERIT.

If in the first year not enough candidates get through, roll over the money into the next year so there is even more money at stake.

Trust me some enterprising soul will scour the earth to find and nurture talented kids to fill these seats. And no one can complain that these students got in through the back door.

And once things improve and more and more SC/ST students get into these colleges, then the prize money can be gradually reduced.

Same approach for OBCs and all other castes, so that eventually we have everyone taking a piece of the pie in proportion to their population, but everyone getting in on merit alone.
vijay
Chennai, India
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
31
Muntajib Khan,

"'Islam And Caste Inequality
Among Indian Muslims

By Yoginder Sikand ""



http://www.countercurrents.org/sikand150204.htm


Brother there are more bitter pills too .Don't criticise Hindus just for criticism sake .Muslim society is no better plus jehadies --
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
30
With due regards my friend Munjatib, I don't think someone who thinks Muslims are the cause of Indias problems has has anything personal against you or even against Muslims.

There is not much debate about Islamic invadors ransacking temples, raping women, forcibly converting them. If you think Hindus are making this up, then you can look at records of Islamic scholars, hmm... say Al-Beruni to verify.

If you want to wield a blade, first make sure it has a handle. Otherwise it will cut you before it cuts anyone else.

And the next time someone says that Muslims are terrorists, you should be understanding. After all, bin Laden is YOUR bitter pill to swallow.
vijay
Chennai, India
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
29
""No history book will ever tell that there was no caste system in India. It was founded not by Muslims, but by Brahmins and the relics of which are still in the Indian society."" No history book will ever tell that there was no caste system in India. It was founded not by Muslims, but by Brahmins and the relics of which are still in the Indian society. "".
MUNTAJIB KHAN

Cast system exists widely and deeply in Muslims Society too .

"However unpalatable it is, you have to swallow this bitter pill"
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
28
There are people in India who go around saying that all of India's problems are because of Muslims. They are bigots and so are you.
VIJAY
CHENNAI INDIA
09:31:01AM (IST)
With due regard, my friend, I don't hold anything personal against the Brahmins. No history book will ever tell that there was no caste system in India. It was founded not by Muslims, but by Brahmins and the relics of which are still in the Indian society. However unpalatable it is, you have to swallow this bitter pill.
Muntajib Khan
Aurangabad, India
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
27
Your rejoinder to Ash-Muhammed-Minu is excllent. Her posts are truly obnoxious. Ash and Muhammed are dialoguing with each other, as if they are two different persons. Such fake dialogue is tantamount to insulting the intelligence of other members of the forum.
GHULAM Y FARUKI
NEW YORK UNITED STATES
11:06:48AM (IST)

Thanks. I too appreciate your arguing skills a lot. Keep up the fight. Regarding the saffronite, you are right. They cannot functions a single identity. They are split personalities. So sick of them.
Muntajib Khan
Aurangabad, India
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
26
>>> If there is any community that is responsible for the woes of modern India as it was in ancient India, it is solely the Brahmins.

There are people in India who go around saying that all of India's problems are because of Muslims. They are bigots and so are you.
vijay
Chennai, India
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
25
Rajesh//The shocking fact that the Gujjars and Meenas in the ministry were prepared to line up with their respective communities rather than back the government reflects how deeply caste divisions have taken root in this saffron state


Are you going to blame the BJP and the color saffron for caste divisions.The meenas received ST status in the 1950s when congress was in power
and the Gujjar's received OBC stautus in 1993 if I am not wrong when the congress was in power at the center.

Are you saying thatcongress divide and rule votebank policies and Arjun singh and VP singh, both congress men by culture and origin, have nothing to do with this.

I know you love to play politics over dead bodies and caste clashes.But even by your standards of stoking divisions for political ends,you seem to be pushing the envelope. An argument should atleast have some face value, to fool atleast some people .
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
24
If there is any community that is responsible for the woes of modern India as it was in ancient India, it is solely the Brahmins. In the first place, in the absence of caste system, there would not have been any need to recompense the oppressed ones by quotas. The recent agitation by the Gujjars—already in the OBC— towards the end that they be included in the ST category caught the state government unawares. It is the abject failure of the Rajasthan government that the agitation went on the scale and the duration that it did, resulting in huge losses of life, infrastructure damage and inconvenience to the common man. This crisis exposed the ineptness of the CM of Rajasthan, Mrs. Vasundhara Raje, known for strutting femininity on the ramps, and promoting sycophancy and self-deification.
Incidents such as the Gujjar controversy in the state of Rajasthan do not bode well to the future of civic rule in India. The specter of quotas may arise again. Any other community having the numbers necessary to create fracas on such a scale may follow the same course, however undue their demands are. Promising heftily on the podiums in the run up to the assembly polls in Rajasthan was the easy part and delivering the same altogether a different ball game. The BJP should desist from such skullduggery if it wants to be popular amongst the masses.
Muntajib Khan
Aurangabad, India
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
23
>> What Rajasthan needs is a Mayawati.

You have hit the nail on the head with that comment. What we need is a Mayawati who can align the interests of the SCs and FCs.

Uncontrolled proliferation of reservations to undeserving castes just because of their numerical strength is not in the interest of either group.
vijay
Chennai, India
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
22
What Rajasthan needs is a Mayawati. Last thing dalits and other lower caste need to do is to fight among themselves.
The shocking fact that the Gujjars and Meenas in the ministry were prepared to line up with their respective communities rather than back the government reflects how deeply caste divisions have taken root in this saffron state. Divide and rule. How can rajputs get to rule if castes underneath don't fight among themselves?
Rajesh
Phoenix, United States
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
21
Hey "Welfare-Modi" Saraswathi

Remember our deal made in yeterday's post.Do not spend too much time preapring your post for several days like you did before.

Please come back to entertain us asap.We can do with some comic relief here.

Regards and EAGERLY WAITING.

p.s I promise to educate you when time permits.
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
20
Reposting of comments on Al's IE article

no raj in rajasthan
rule of law is not more pious than human lives.people were not killing each other before state killed them.so many unreasonable things have already been done on reservation issue,heaven was not falling if demands of one more group was considered

Name - balbir singh

in defence of the state systems
Can we for once stop using the state as our righful punching bag and the police as the targets for all our ire. If the police acts fast then they are criticized and inquires conducted against them. When they die like in the recent gujjar demonstrationwhere they were ripped apart, eyes goged out, woman constables were paraded nude, they did not even get 1 minute of coverage...we were so involved in the so called pilight of the gujjars. Aaj Tak specially was aggresively advocating and justifying the violence perpretated by the gujjars. The police were asked not to fire and so what is there for them to do. It a catch -22 situation where if they take action they are punished and if they do not then they are punished. If the police is so unnecessary let us do away with it.


Name - chavi

Mobilisation of Public Opinion in favour of paying up for the national loss
Will IE sperhead a campaign for mobilising whatever it takes so that the Gurjar Arakshan Sangharsh Samiti in true spirit of their expressed regret "for the violence and the loss of life during their agitation", would pick up the cost of restoration or at least perform community services as a goodwill gesture ? If the perpretors of violence that damaged public property have not made to account for their crime, any other group could do the same in the future with impunity, leading to certain collapse of the "Indian dream" of being a developed country any time.

Name - E S Kimo

blame it on jholwalas
The human rights inc is responsible for the police becoming a thankless job. Stop this double speak. When police act tough, you editors are the first one to call for their heads. Why should police bother to control a mob when their hard work is never acknowledged, infact 9 out of 10 times condemned by you jholawalsName - kaunteya
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
19
Comments on Als IE link about an impotent police
in the face of rioting

no raj in rajasthan
rule of law is not more pious than human lives.people were not killing each other before state killed them.so many unreasonable things have already been done on reservation issue,heaven was not falling if demands of one more group was consideredName - balbir singh in defence of the state systems
Can we for once stop using the state as our righful punching bag and the police as the targets for all our ire. If the police acts fast then they are criticized and inquires conducted against them. When they die like in the recent gujjar demonstrationwhere they were ripped apart, eyes goged out, woman constables were paraded nude, they did not even get 1 minute of coverage...we were so involved in the so called pilight of the gujjars. Aaj Tak specially was aggresively advocating and justifying the violence perpretated by the gujjars. The police were asked not to fire and so what is there for them to do. It a catch -22 situation where if they take action they are punished and if they do not then they are punished. If the police is so unnecessary let us do away with it.Name - chavi Mobilisation of Public Opinion in favour of paying up for the national loss
Will IE sperhead a campaign for mobilising whatever it takes so that the Gurjar Arakshan Sangharsh Samiti in true spirit of their expressed regret "for the violence and the loss of life during their agitation", would pick up the cost of restoration or at least perform community services as a goodwill gesture ? If the perpretors of violence that damaged public property have not made to account for their crime, any other group could do the same in the future with impunity, leading to certain collapse of the "Indian dream" of being a developed country any time. Name - E S Kimo blame it on jholwalas
The human rights inc is responsible for the police becoming a thankless job. Stop this double speak. When police act tough, you editors are the first one to call for their heads. Why should police bother to control a mob when their hard work is never acknowledged, infact 9 out of 10 times condemned by you jholawalsName - kaunteya
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
18
As long as poor fight among themselves it's good for our politicians, babus, cops, judges and in general it's good for the ruling class.

Poor Brahmins, poor SCs & STs, poor BCs, poor OBCs are the real sufferers in the bargain.

Leaders want the caste division for their vote bank politics (glory to our electrol process!!), beaurocrats need caste reservation to promote themselves and get their children into civil service. Judiciary, executive, govt & non-govt sectors ditto.

I am sure one day the poor will see thru the class character of the state and revolt for good.
Saraswathi
Zurich, Switzerland
Jun 06, 2007 12:00 AM
17
Ash-Muhammed-Minu,

>> just like Faruk who defends and donates to such jihadi causes.

Liar! Lying comes so easily to you because without lying you just cannot carry on your hate propaganda. You and Bagai are truly people from the gutter.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 05, 2007 12:00 AM
16
I just wonder why some ppl r resorting to Brahminical bashing here, when they were no-where remotely in picture in this riots. It has become an order of the day to kick @ the brahmins for whatever gimmick happening in reservation policies, when they themselves are a victim of this for more than a century now. Please don't hurt this harmless creatures again when this process of Ethnic cleansing of Brahmins is already in place like in TN. No1 can deny their notorious wrong-doings in the medieval period and without which the question of Congie-type Vote-bankish Quota regime won't be in place today.
Narayan
Zurich, Switzerland
Jun 05, 2007 12:00 AM
15
Muslims arrested in usa terror plot.Muslims will be muslims just like Faruk who defends and donates to such jihadi causes.


Suspect in NYC airport plot surrenders By TONY FRASER, Associated Press Writer
47 minutes ago



PORT-OF-SPAIN, Trinidad - A Guyanese suspect in an alleged plot to bomb a fuel pipeline feeding New York's John F. Kennedy Airport surrendered to police Tuesday in Trinidad, a police official said.

ADVERTISEMENT

Abdel Nur turned himself in at a police station outside the Trinidadian capital of Port-of-Spain, police spokeswoman Wendy Campbell told The Associated Press.

He is the fourth man arrested the alleged plot, including a former opposition member of Guyana's parliament and a former airport air cargo employee who was arrested in New York.

Nur is reportedly the uncle of former world welterweight boxing champion Andrew "Six Heads" Lewis, one of Guyana's most famous citizens.

U.S. authorities claim the alleged plotters unsuccessfully sought support in Trinidad from Jamaat al Muslimeen, a radical Islamic group that staged a deadly coup attempt in the Caribbean nation in 1990.

In addition to Nur, Trinidadian authorities are holding two suspects: Abdul Kadir, the former Guyanese lawmaker, and Kareem Ibrahim of Trinidad. They are fighting extradition to the United States.

The other suspect named, Russell Defreitas, is former JFK air cargo employee who was arrested in New York. He is a U.S. citizen native to Guyana, a former Dutch and British colony on the northern coast of South America.

The leader of Jamaat al Muslimeen told The Associated Press on Monday that his group had no connection the plot. "I know nothing about these men and I have nothing to do with whatever they are being charged for," said Yasin Abu Bakr, the longtime head of Jamaat al Muslimeen.

Bakr would not say if he knew any of the suspects.

The case was broken open by an informant — a twice-convicted drug dealer who found himself in the midst of what investigators called a terrorist plot conceived as more devastating than the Sept. 11 attacks.

"Would you like to die as a martyr?" the informant was asked, according to the indictment.

He unhesitatingly replied yes and soon was making surveillance trips around the airport — the "chicken farm," as the planners dubbed their target.

Authorities said the JFK scheme was an example of homegrown terrorism. Defreitas, 63, immigrated to the U.S. more than 30 years ago, but he told the federal informant that his feelings of disgust toward his adopted homeland had lingered for years.

"Before terrorism started in this country," he said in one secretly recorded conversation.

Defreitas was arrested Friday night outside Brooklyn's Lindenwood Diner — a spot once bugged by federal officials tracking former Gambino family boss John A. "Junior" Gotti.

Jamaat al Muslimeen, known for launching a bloody 1990 coup attempt in Trinidad that involved taking the prime minister and his Cabinet hostage, is not accused of offering the suspects any support. The group, whose followers are largely black converts to Sunni Islam, has faded as a political force in Trinidad while Abu Bakr fends off criminal charges of inciting violence
ash
san diego, United States
Jun 05, 2007 12:00 AM
14
"Union Minister Vayalar Ravi's grandson's feeding ceremony at Kerala's famed Guruvayur temple -- following which the temple authorities conducted a purification ritual"

Ravi belongs to Kerala's Ezhava caste -- classified in the southern state as part of the Other Backward Classes -- which comprises around 24.5% of its population.

And this idiot Ravi keeps on visiting temples and calling themselves "Hindus"!!!! No wonder these "shudra/OBC/ spineless low castes with NO SELF-RESPECT" keep remaining as LOW CASTES for generations! This ahole is supposed to be a "LEADER" of the OBCs. LMAO!!!
Raj
Chicago, United States
Jun 05, 2007 12:00 AM
13
The Supreme Court today directed the Governments of Rajasthan, Haryana, UP and Delhi to submit their action taken reports on the incidents related to the Gurjar protests. The SC took "suo motu cognizance of the incidents on the basis of media reports". I am a bit surprised that the SC would intervene on its own without any parties bringing a suit for settlement. The question of whether the SC has been overstepping its bounds has been raised recently by some jurists. Is the court's intervention in the Rajasthan case also an example of its stepping into jurisdictions that rightfully belong to other branches of government?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 05, 2007 12:00 AM
12
"Infact my friend, the caste discrimination is more rampant in OBCs/SCs and STs. Case in point? the conflict between Gujjars and Meenas, Malas and Maadigas."

They fight because they were condemned for a long time now and that provides for your privileges in life as a brahmin. I am surprised that they still did not convert to Islam or Christianity with all the mess they have to take in Hinduism.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Jun 05, 2007 12:00 AM
11
Abhi and Fair System,

Shudras include a lot of people in India(infact more than 70 % of Indian populace). Pick a caste, and most of them have been seen as shudra during ancient times. They have been doing menial jobs in ancient times and that takes a majority people in a society who mostly were poor and they have been climbing up and down the ladder of caste system(kshatriya, vaishya depending on the place and time) which makes them a mobile group in a societal perspective but the varna tage stays with them. You both indicate a lot of allergic attitude in your posts for a guy who never took reservations, comes from one of the very forward communities in south India. All the rage because i have identified myself as a shudra which i am really according to historical records in a hindu perspective. You, like many other brahmins are so full of themselves and out of touch with reality. And people wonder why people desert Hinduism. What would you Brahmins do when more like me come out and show you your deserving place in Hinduism(begging). That would bring you spiritual solace and also save Hinduism. Power from Hinduism must be from the bottom of the ladder which makes it compassionate rather than the arrogant way it has been. And it will. Anyway, thanks for the idiotic posts from you guys.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Jun 05, 2007 12:00 AM
10
Indian Judiciary and especially the Supreme Court is a "National SHAM". The biased casteist Supreme Court judges don't see "Casteism" as the "National Shame" but terms the voice against a f@%Ked up societal system as a "Natonal Shame"! And these aholes are supposed to be "Judges"!!! LMAO! "Don't divide the country"! Hey retards! The society was divided when castes were made. The funny thing is, the media and the rest of the country buys the stupid statements of the Supreme Court and takes them seriously for fear of "contempt of court" charges. The lower castes should keep up the fight. If you accept a hierarchical social system, you deserve your low position. If you don't accept it, you are free.
Raj
Chicago, United States
Jun 05, 2007 12:00 AM
9
The problem Chaitanya, is with you and not with Brahmins. Brahmins never go around flaunting their caste, it is people like you who go around shouting at the top of your voices proclaiming that you are a dalit/sc/st etc.

The problem is not brahmins, Chaitanya, the problem is you, your mistaken notion that it is always brahmins who follow the practice of discrimination. Infact my friend, the caste discrimination is more rampant in OBCs/SCs and STs. Case in point? the conflict between Gujjars and Meenas, Malas and Maadigas. Do you know in karnataka, there are two kinds of Maadigas? Maadigas Left Hand and Maadigas Right Hand?? More often than not it is they who fight amongst themselves.

Regarding your contention that people converting to Budhdhism, I dont think there should be any problem in that. Budhdhism never preached violence and so be it. Regarding conversion into being a muslim or a christian, dont worry, they will soon realise their folly....
fairsystem
Bangalore, India
Jun 05, 2007 12:00 AM
8
Correction:

Should read, "6 % of state population in Maharashtra converted to buddhism and another 6% to abrahamic religion" instead of "6% of lower castes".
chaitanya
chennai, India
Jun 05, 2007 12:00 AM
7
How do people expect the vast majority of Hindus who constitute shudras and dalits to support Hinduism if the brahmin still behaves like an arrogant ass and calls himself a brahmin. 6% of lower castes in Maharashtra have converted to Buddhism and another 6 % to abrahamic religions just because they couldn't take anymore of brahmin calling the shots in Hinduism. This trend will continue as long as power centers in Hinduism are not weaned away from Brahmin to the majority Hindus who represent it's true identity. Hinduism must be saved from brahmins.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Jun 05, 2007 12:00 AM
6
"enough brahmin bashing has taken place in this forum"

bhrahmin will be bashed as long as he flaunts his brahminism and call himself a brahmin. If a guy calls himself brahmin, what are rest of Hindus? scum? I see myself as a Shudra which is what i am and got to project that identity if a Brahmin sees himself as Brahmin first and last instead of calling oneself Hindu. And i will bash the brahmin in this forum because he made me a Shudra. And any brahmin poster preaching crap about someone being brahmin through deeds and not birth doesn't make any sense to me.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Jun 05, 2007 12:00 AM
5
Ganapathy,

Few questions. One, can you ask those from the meena community who have already taken the benefit of reservation to stop using it for their future generations?

Two, regarding the harebrained idea of Tamil Nadu to grant extra marks to those whose parents are uneducated, you have taken the benefit of the scheme and therefore you are in a better position today. Would you like this scheme to continue for eternity wherein one day your children are affected by it? No, right?

Three, reservation per se will not make anybody angry. It is the perpetual use of it by the same parties who keep benefitting out of it which angers people.

Any answers?
fairsystem
Bangalore, India
Jun 05, 2007 12:00 AM
4
The possibility of poor protesting against the state backfires in India because of caste being the governing factor of protest; wherein, there is always a significant portion of people in the caste, who are fat, rich and secured in employment with high living standards. That does not lead to a change in the nature of republic in India giving rise to an entirely new authority representing the poor cause mainly, because poor are divided along caste lines and their bosses are privileged, suave and articulate(pandering to english media) like Kirori Singh Bhainsla for gujjars. The poor have a lot to loose by aligning their interests with privilieged people and handing the gloves of leadership to a guy just because he shares the caste name with them and the privileged guy has nothing to lose by leading them in matters of wealth but lot to gain and therein lies the catch.
chaitanya
chennai, India
Jun 05, 2007 12:00 AM
3
the gujjar agitation should open the eyes of all specially the supreme court and make it get rid of the mindset of thinking in favour of the brahmins and upper castes always as it has do
ne till date.the obstacles created by the supreme court in implementing reservations have started showing results with the gurjar agitation being the first.the importance of reservation for development of communities can be known from the reports of meena community and how reservation has helped them.proper implementation of obc reservation would not have led for this situation.there is no harm in subdividing the quota so that there is equitable distribution according to population.tamilnadu had done it successfully and had created a situation where the development of the lower castes are the best in the country.the supreme court had tried its best to trouble tamilnadu reservation policies and is all set to squash the current after its 9 schedule judjement.i am a beneficiary of tamilnadu govt policy of providing marks to children whose parents are not graduates irrespective of caste denomination and i can vouch that my batch is doing equally if not better than the batches where there was no such scheme.the great stupid sorry supreme court cancelled that scheme as it cannot stand the chance of children belonging to uneducated families doing well.the next scheme of reserving seats based on studying in rural schools gave opportunities to thousands of students from villages but the stupid sorry supreme court stuck it again. it will never fail to disappoint u when it comes tohelping the downtrodden communities.the time is ripe for designing a reservation policy where criteria should be csate,schooling,educational status of parents, economic status all are taken into consideration.the image being created is that the supreme court is infavour of such while the politicians oppose but in reality it is the stupid sorry supreme court which had stuck down the recat of sc's in andhra and the tamilnadu schemes.
ganapathi
chennai, India
Jun 05, 2007 12:00 AM
2
It is really tragic that the people in India give vent to their emotion by destroying public properties, by staging bundhs, by paralysing road and rail transports to casuse immense difficulties to the citizens, not to speak of the monetary loss in millions. That is how our people have been groomed by our obscurantist political parties all these years. Slightest pretext is enough to kindle violence and destruction in the country. For India, it is always one step forward, two steps backward.
T.Sathyamurthi
Folsom, United States
Jun 05, 2007 12:00 AM
1
Ah, Outlook seems to be singing a different tune now. Few months back, Vinod Mehta was accusing the opponents of reservations of a lot many things, and chiding us as being insensitive, despite, to use his words as I recall them, "fattened on the benefits of economic liberalisation". Looks like the recent violence is finally making these "liberals" realize some of the things that we were saying all along. Doubt wisdom shall dawn on them, but hopefully, blatant opportunism shall reduce.

I recall posting a similar post on these boards last year (trying to find how many castes had been added to the different categories, and how many had "progressed" from OBC to general category), and requested, if Outlook could provide some data. Don't have such information. If one of the other readers has some, could they please share the link?

Finally, there hasn't been enough criticism of the violence unleashed by the agitators (and the methods employed by the police). There is an article in today's IE

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/32695.html


which suggests that the fear of being seen as anti-"agitating group" often forces the police and govt to put down the chaos in the early stages. The Gurjjar leadership should be held accountable for the violence unleashed by the agitators over the last few days.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
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