opinion
Let's Think Again About The Burqa
The Quran does prescribe purdah. That doesn't mean women should obey it.
My mother used purdah. She wore a burqa with a net cover in front of the face. It reminded me of the meatsafes in my grandmother's house. One had a net door made of cloth, the other of metal. But the objective was the same: keeping the meat safe. My mother was put under a burqa by her conservative family. They told her that wearing a burqa would mean obeying Allah.
 
 
Women too have sexual urges. So why didn't Allah start the purdah for men? Clearly, He treated them on unequal terms.
 
 
And if you obey Allah, He would be happy with you and not let you burn in hellfire. My mother was afraid of Allah and also of her own father. He would threaten her with grave consequences if she didn't wear the burqa. She was also afraid of the men in the neighbourhood, who could have shamed her. Even her husband was a source of fear, for he could do anything to her if she disobeyed him.

As a young girl, I used to nag her: Ma, don't you suffocate in this veil? Don't you feel all dark inside? Don't you feel breathless? Don't you feel angry? Don't you ever feel like throwing it off? My mother kept mum. She couldn't do anything about it. But I did. When I was sixteen, I was presented a burqa by one of my relatives. I threw it away.

The custom of purdah is not new. It dates back to 300 BC. The women of aristocratic Assyrian families used purdah. Ordinary women and prostitutes were not allowed purdah. In the middle ages, even Anglo-Saxon women used to cover their hair and chin and hide their faces behind a cloth or similar object. This purdah system was obviously not religious. The religious purdah is used by Catholic nuns and Mormons, though for the latter only during religious ceremonies and rituals. For Muslim women, however, such religious purdah is not limited to specific rituals but mandatory for their daily life outside the purview of religion.

A couple of months ago, at the height of the purdah controversy, Shabana Azmi asserted that the Quran doesn't say anything about wearing the burqa. She's mistaken. This is what the Quran says:

"Tell the faithful women that they must keep their gaze focused below/on the ground and cover their sexual organs. They must not put their beauty and their jewellery on display. They must hide their breasts behind a purdah. They must not exhibit their beauty to anybody except their husbands, brothers, nephews, womenfolk, servants, eunuch employees and children. They must not move their legs briskly while walking because then much of their bodies can get exposed." (Sura Al Noor 24:31)

"Oh nabi, please tell your wives and daughters and faithful women to wear a covering dress on their bodies. That would be good. Then nobody can recognise them and harrass them. Allah is merciful and kind." (Sura Al Hijaab 33: 59)

Even the Hadis --a collection of the words of Prophet Mohammed, his opinion on various subjects and also about his work, written by those close to him-- talks extensively of the purdah for women. Women must cover their whole body before going out, they should not go before unknown men, they should not go to the mosque to read the namaaz, they should not go for any funeral.

There are many views on why and how the Islamic purdah started. One view has it that Prophet Mohammed became very poor after spending all the wealth of his first wife. At that time, in Arabia, the poor had to go to the open desert and plains for relieving themselves and even their sexual needs. The Prophet's wives too had to do the same. He had told his wives that "I give you permission to go out and carry out your natural work". (Bukhari Hadis first volume book 4 No. 149). And this is what his wives started doing accordingly. One day, Prophet Mohammed's disciple Uman complained to him that these women were very uncomfortable because they were instantly recognisable while relieving themselves. Umar proposed a cover but Prophet Mohammed ignored it. Then the Prophet asked Allah for advice and he laid down the Ayat (33:59) (Bukhari Hadis Book 026 No. 5397).

This is the history of the purdah, according to the Hadis. But the question is: since Arab men too relieved themselves in the open, why didn't Allah start the purdah for men? Clearly, Allah doesn't treat men and women as equals, else there would be purdah for both! Men are higher than women. So women have to be made walking prisons and men can remain free birds.

Another view is that the purdah was introduced to separate women from servants. This originates from stories in the Hadis. One story in the Bukhari Hadis goes thus: After winning the Khyber War, Prophet Mohammed took over all the properties of the enemy, including their women. One of these women was called Safia. One of the Prophet's disciples sought to know her status. He replied: "If tomorrow you see that Safia is going around covered, under purdah, then she is going to be a wife. If you see her uncovered, that means I've decided to make her my servant."

The third view comes from this story. Prophet Mohammed's wife Ayesha was very beautiful. His friends were often found staring at her with fascination. This clearly upset the Prophet. So the Quran has an Ayat that says, "Oh friends of the prophet or holy men, never go to your friend's house without an invitation. And if you do go, don't go and ask anything of their wives". It is to resist the greedy eyes of friends, disciples or male guests that the purdah system came into being. First it was applicable to only the wives of the holy men, and later it was extended to all Muslim women. Purdah means covering the entire body except for the eyes, wrist and feet. Nowadays, some women practise the purdah by only covering their hair. That is not what is written in the Hadis Quran. Frankly, covering just the hair is not Islamic purdah in the strict sense.

In the early Islamic period, Prophet Mohammed started the practice of covering the feet of women. Within 100 years of his death, purdah spread across the entire Middle East. Women were covered by an extra layer of clothing. They were forbidden to go out of the house, or in front of unknown men. Their lives were hemmed into a tight regime: stay at home, cook, clean the house, bear children and bring them up. In this way, one section of the people was separated by purdah, quarantined and covered.

Why are women covered? Because they are sex objects. Because when men see them, they are roused. Why should women have to be penalised for men's sexual problems? Even women have sexual urges. But men are not covered for that. In no religion formulated by men are women considered to have a separate existence, or as human beings having desires and opinions separate from men's. The purdah rules humiliate not only women but men too. If women walk about without purdah, it's as if men will look at them with lustful eyes, or pounce on them, or rape them. Do they lose all their senses when they see any woman without burqa?

My question to Shabana and her supporters, who argue that the Quran says nothing about purdah is: If the Quran advises women to use purdah, should they do so? My answer is, No. Irrespective of which book says it, which person advises, whoever commands, women should not have purdah. No veil, no chador, no hijab, no burqa, no headscarf. Women should not use any of these things because all these are instruments of disrespect. These are symbols of women's oppression. Through them, women are told that they are but the property of men, objects for their use. These coverings are used to keep women passive and submissive. Women are told to wear them so that they cannot exist with their self-respect, honour, confidence, separate identity, own opinion and ideals intact. So that they cannot stand on their own two feet and live with their head held high and their spine strong and erect.

Some 1,500 years ago, it was decided for an individual's personal reasons that women should have purdah and since then millions of Muslim women all over the world have had to suffer it. So many old customs have died a natural death, but not purdah. Instead, of late, there has been a mad craze to revive it. Covering a woman's head means covering her brain and ensuring that it doesn't work. If women's brains worked properly, they'd have long ago thrown off these veils and burqas imposed on them by a religious and patriarchal regime.

What should women do? They should protest against this discrimination. They should proclaim a war against the wrongs and ill-treatment meted out to them for hundreds of years. They should snatch from the men their freedom and their rights. They should throw away this apparel of discrimination and burn their burqas.




(Nasrin, a Bangladeshi writer, currently lives in Calcutta)
 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Nov 24, 2007 12:00 AM
345
I may not agree with Taslima's many views and ways. Yet, she has an inalienable right to speak her mind.
Tabs
Goettingen, germany
Apr 06, 2007 12:00 AM
344
i was amused by mall's post. The earlier post which i sent was addressed to everyone (the muslims and hindus..if you like this differentiation MALL..so please read carefully). Please remember that the days of the crusades and like are over. Free will pervades in most parts of the globe (and that is the reason why you and i and expressing our opinion). One basic question to everyone (hindu / muslim / buddhist / christian) - 99% of the people practising a particular religion do so because they were born in that religion? Did you have a choice while being born? Point again being that please do not work towards bringing the days of the crusades etc back.(the world already has enough troubles). Please make the next generation aware that they belong to a particular religionbut please do not breed fundamentalists. FREE WILL & HUMANITY - please respect both. And please..dont disguise your comments as intellectual polemic.
swarag
mumbai, India
Apr 05, 2007 12:00 AM
343
taslima for gods sake was expressing her individual opinion. We need to respect it and not necessarily approve it. Religion and its ways are a matter of personal choice. Some of the posts in the past 2 months maligning different religions are suggestive of an absolutely insular attitude. Guys take a break and examine your sensibilities.
swarag
mumbai, India
Mar 17, 2007 12:00 AM
342
"... a little-known conservative Muslim group on Friday offered a Rs 5 lakh bounty for the head of controversial Bangladeshi author Taslima Nasreen. President of the All India Ibtehad Council, Taqi Raza Khan ordered the elimination (qatal) of the exiled novelist" (The Times of India).

As I said when UP cabinet minister Qureshi took out a fatwa against the Danish cartoonists, such fatwas should be seen as incitements to murder and should be subject to criminal prosecution. While Muslims may find Taslima Nasreen's views to be offensive, she has every right to express them. Those who disagree should express their disagreement in a peaceful, civilized way. In democracies, freedom of expression is sacrosanct, and the sooner Muslims come to terms with that fact, the better.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 08, 2007 12:00 AM
341
I had no idea Taslima Nasreen was such a frusto. I can feel her pain...lol. She really deserves a lot of publicity for this especially in the west. She must be aspiring for US/UK citizenship now. Real bad outlook gave her the platform for her stupid writing and publicity.
Tariq Ali
Delhi, India
Feb 13, 2007 12:00 AM
340
give her passport not visa
commonsense
mumbai, India
Feb 12, 2007 12:00 AM
339
There is a gulf of a difference between cross dressing, Mr. Parbat Laldeng, and unisexual dressing. You are unable to distinguish between the two. Hence a small hint is given
below.


--------------------------------
------------------------------------------------R>
What is Cross-Dressing?
Cross-dressing involves men becoming sexually aroused by dressing in women's clothing.
What is the psychiatric diagnosis for this behavior?
The clinical term for cross-dressing is transvestic fetishism (TF).


Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Feb 12, 2007 12:00 AM
338
Doesn't Imran Khan not go in for cross-dressing? With his shalwar-qamiz?

I have seen Paks in Denver who look like women because of shalwar-kamiz dress, and Arabs who seem like ladies becausre they wear robes.

So who says cross-dressing is alien to the peoples of that faith?
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Feb 10, 2007 12:00 AM
337
Again A globally controversial and redical islamic topic choosed by Madam Nasreen.
Are your talkings a quest for reviving Islam and its illness or you are verbal/writing for women's eqality with respect to Men's hegemony in the present social structure.
Burqa is religious symbol for Women in Islam....sickness is associated with it in for of restrictions and cruelity which is inturn a basic property of Islam.
Now after some day you will laugh over Sikh men and say that their 'Pagri' should be removed and they should be like other Hindu brothers.
Other issues are still pending for women's education madam Nasreen.
Educate them.

shmpradeep.blogspot.com
Pradeep Sharma
Mumbai, India
Feb 10, 2007 12:00 AM
336

Rafiqa's comments given in this column represents the stand of thousands of Muslim women who have started wearing burqa realising its importance. There cannot be two opinions about the fact that Burqa is a protection to women. A burqa clad woman is safe from so many unwanted things. This sort of apparel is used even by Christian nuns for the reasons best known to all. It is a dignified dress.

During the past 10 years even those families who never knew burqa have adopted it voluntarily. If Taslima Nasreen is against it, our sympathies are with her because she is in a tight corner and wants to do something which can keep her in the lime light. It is her business and she lives on this. She is not capable of writing any healthy article. All she knows is throwing mud on others for getting attention. She will realise her blunders one day. I also think that she is so furious because of the treatment she received in Bangladesh.May God show her the right path.

V.M. Khaleelur Rahman
Chennai, India
Feb 10, 2007 12:00 AM
335
Watch the wording of the protest against the "Detractors".
Had it been against the demonstrations outside M.F.Hussein's house the words "Hindu Fundamentalists, Hindu Fanatics, Hindu Communal elements, Hindu Fascists" etc would have flown freely from these SECULAR people.
Here They are talking about "Taking her on Intellectually" so implying that there IS something which is not agreeable to all & it needs to be contested. As far as Hussein's paintings were concerned these same people were giving examples of Nudity in Indian Scriptures & Mythlogy to support his RIGHT to paint the SARASWATI Nude. They didn't talk about,"Taking Hussein on Intellectually"
Cowards & Selectively Secular.
Abhijit Kane
Mumbai, India
Feb 09, 2007 12:00 AM
334
those who cover their heads cover their minds also. though targeted at burqua her remarks should be taken with a pinch of salt at least by headgear wearing (covering) sardar khushwant singh. has he and his fretarnity closed minded. perhaps yes!
balvinder
chandigarh, India
Feb 09, 2007 12:00 AM
333
Nice to know that these famous media personalities are supporting one lady Taslima Nasreen for her fundamental right of hurting the feelings of millions of other human beings, what a class of intelectuals we have !.

With their such support to the lady, writing against 'Naqab or Burqa', they are denying the facts that this has been part of many other civilised culture and exists in other religions as well. What a shame ! We forget what we are teaching to our children, it seems we prefer our children to cross all the dignified moral values in front of us.
Kaunain Shahidi
Buraydah, Saudi Arabia
Feb 09, 2007 12:00 AM
332
Taslima should be given Indian citizenship and in lieu of that Arundhati Roy, Kuldip Nayar, Imam Bukhari etc. seculars must be sent to Bangaladesh.
Satish
Pune, India
Feb 09, 2007 12:00 AM
331

I support this. The world needs many more Taslimas to talk against the evil practices and fight against the fanatics.
Satish
Pune, India
Feb 09, 2007 12:00 AM
330
Dear Sir,
For once I agree with Arundhati Roy . Taslima must be permitted to stay in this country.

Thanks
Soumyadarshan Biswas
Bhubaneswar, India
Feb 09, 2007 12:00 AM
329
In the name of intellectual journalism, the signatories seem to invite trouble to the general public of the country. Why should Indians invite the wrath of Islamic countries, for the sake of this writer? Will the signatories guarantee that there will be no backlash? Intelligentia in India seem to have this uncanny ability to invite trouble. Indian government should disown any responsibility for the safety of Tasleem as well these mad people.
Ram
Vancouver, Canada
Feb 09, 2007 12:00 AM
328
Let her stay in India. After all she is way far less damaging than people like Aruthati Roy. She is not in the way of economic developement of India. She is not working to delay hydroelectric power projects or against bringing business into the country.
She is definetly adding to the social discussion in the country.
vichara
Bangalore, India
Feb 09, 2007 12:00 AM
327
Taslima's VISA must be extended. Since she has requested GOI for asylum, she should not only be given asylum but must be given Indian citizenship. It is high time we stop tolerating intolerance, bigotry, patriarchal values and backwardness under the garb of hurting feelings of fanatics from one religion or another.


Taslima, Parzania - where is India going? Why Gandhi's India embrasing Godse's values?
Brajesh Choudhary
DELHI, INDIA
Feb 08, 2007 12:00 AM
326
I support this appeal. India should take a firm position on freedom of writers and artists, and freedom from fatwas.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 08, 2007 12:00 AM
325
Taslima should be given Indian citizenship, immediately. Those who are protesting against her should be kicked out of the country, with their ideological weapons cinfiscated, the Madarasas and the Mosques closed permanently for the survival of the Hindu-Indic heritage
Raj Bodepudi
Oak Brook, United States
Feb 08, 2007 12:00 AM
324
You can add my signature. Taslima has been very brave to speak out, and we must support her.
G.Natrajan
Hyderabad, India
Feb 07, 2007 12:00 AM
323
She should definitely be allowed to stay and say whatever she wants. As should everyone else in a democratic India...
omar ali
los angeles, usa
Feb 07, 2007 12:00 AM
322
Campaign for women's rights in Iran.


http://www.nytimes.com/...opinion/07observer.html
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 06, 2007 12:00 AM
321
SABA ANSARII

Cross-dressing is very strictly forbidden in Islam, you say.

Is that so?

Why then to both men and women in Arabia and elsewhere in the Muslim world wear robes?

How about the Pakistani men who wear shalwar kamiz? I have seen them even here in Denver. Look at Imraan Khan !

Any comments, Ms Ansarii?
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Feb 05, 2007 12:00 AM
320
Parbat/Anil/Ramdas/Abdullah/Thomas.

Never miss even an iota of opportunity to say something bad about somebody! You are just pathetic.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 05, 2007 12:00 AM
319
Why are these heroes speaking up in this obscure place? Why can't they use megaphones in the street in Delhi, or speak at the magnificent Jwaharlal Nehru University or speak up in some widely-watched TV programme? Why this feeble whisper in a dark corner, when it is a quation of condemning Islamism for once in their islam-sycophantic lives?
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Feb 05, 2007 12:00 AM
318
How muted and feeble all these loud "secular" wallahs are when they absolutely have, for very shame, to support an anti-Islamist cause.....Thet couldn't have kept their dirty mouths shut this time without losing what atom of credibility they might have left, so they muttered some feeble half-hearted words of support for this decent cause.....

What creeps !
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Feb 05, 2007 12:00 AM
317
Islamic feminism: what's in a name?

Islamic feminism is on the whole more radical than Muslims' secular feminisms, argues Margot Badran.


http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2002/569/cu1.htm
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 05, 2007 12:00 AM
316
On a lighter vein, I would like to remind that burqa acts as a good sunscreen in overheated deserts of middle east where Islam originated.Once it might have been a necessity.Even men in middle east cover themselves fully to prevent sunburn.
biswaprasun chatterji
kolkata, India
Feb 03, 2007 12:00 AM
315
Dear Sir:
Why are you attacking Dr R.A. Mashelkar, the former DG CSIR, right after his retirement? Is there some sinister move in timing of the report or is there some larger conspiracy? Otherwise, you would not have dared to equate him with a discredited Union leader. Mashelkar has attained an iconic status as a scientist and science administrator. Unfortunately and quite mischievously, you have tried to destroy his image by your ill-timed and self-serving report, perhaps to sensationalize the charges of a union leader. In India, we have only a handful of heroes and most of them are film stars and cricketers. Indian science and technology needs heroes of Mashelkar’s stature and vision. In Science, you could count only a few revered heroes like him. He made the Indian scientists realize the value of IPR. One has to count the number of patents CSIR labs have filed during his tenure as Director General. He instilled confidence in them as knowledge creators and asked them to be measured by the best yardsticks. The 20,000 odd scientific workforce was too comfortable in doing mundane research; only a handful self-motivated had remained active. He brought discipline to the CSIR work force. Of course, in this process, he is bound to have created enemies. He had to deal with unions of all sorts; some of them with patronage from political parties. You cannot equate him with a Govt. babu, because he is a scientist first and bureaucrat next. Mashelkar’s several trips abroad, whether to deliver invited lectures or to represent India in world fora, could not have taken place, in the first place, without the Government’s explicit permission and knowledge. Do not forget that he cannot be equated with other bureaucrats. The secretaries of DST, DSIR and DBT have special status, and come from scientific communities. They are already well known for their scientific accomplishments. So receiving hospitality is very routine for all scientists of that stature and repute. Even if he gets any award money or honorarium, it has to be accounted, notwithstanding how frivolous or fat the amount may be. All payments of awards are made by cheque. Mashelkar’s only fault was that he did things sincerely and enthusiastically, traveled extensively across the length and breadth of India, promoting Indian science and was always in the public eye, at the cost of his personal comfort and sacrifices of his family. The innumerable awards he won for his science and leadership, from all quarters of society, and the honours bestowed upon him by Indian and foreign professional bodies are enviable. Even if RSS had felicitated him, along with other equally famous persons (President Kalam included), what was wrong in his accepting it? Like a civilized and apolitical person, he might have gone to accept the award, not anticipating that his detractors could use it against him. Why show that picture as he is some criminal? It is in a very poor taste. His rise to the apex position from an extremely poor family could not have been without his sticking to high moral values and principles, hard work and intelligence. It is a sad commentary that the Indian media really do not know how to revere our heroes and they seem to have a predicament with triumphant people. The pastime of the media, both print and electronic, is to dethrone the stars, may be due to jealousy or suspicion, after putting them on a podium themselves! Your article on him is tantamount to yellow journalism. I only hope that you retract the uncharitable article and tender an unconditional apology to him. It is not too late to do it.
G.D. Yadav
Mumbai, India
Feb 01, 2007 12:00 AM
314

Your letters column proves your stand on Muslims issues. As an editor you are aware that when any Hindu issue is discussed, Muslims never interfere in it. But what happens when any Muslim issue is discussed? It is this attitude which irritates the Muslims. Interference by any community in the affairs of any other community is to say the least unwanted. If we Indians refrain from this, it will be better.
V.M. Khaleelur Rahman
Chennai, India
Jan 31, 2007 12:00 AM
313
Manzoor says,

>> "... it also underpins the orthodox elements to strengthen their grip over the community, by making it an issue of affront on Islam"

It is true that attacks on Islam do strengthen the hands of orthodox mullahs, and thus have an effect opposite to what the writer may have intended. Since Taslima has the right to write whatever she wants to write, and she has the right to have motives other than reform, it is up to the moderate reformers to devise innovative tactical methods to advance their cause without having such unintended consequences. The situation is such that any advancement of liberal ideas becomes an oppotunity for our rigid guardians to re-assert their regressive dogma. The path to reform, it would seem, is a minefield.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 31, 2007 12:00 AM
312
The concern in Taslema Nasreen's article ' Let's Burn the Burqa' (Jan. 22, 2007 Outlook) is appreciable. The core of her argument is suggestive that Muslim society should refurbish its fading traditional and regressive practices. However, the approach of the article is obnoxious and will be counter-productive. It means, the article will miss its intended objective and give one more opportunity to the rightwing forces to demonize the Muslims of this country. Moreover, it also underpins the orthodox elements to strengthen their grip over the community, by making it an issue of affront on Islam. Thus, any attempt to reform in the Muslim community must take the course of consensus and within the framework of Islam. In other words, the efforts for reform, in the language of culture they understand and the method they appreciate.
Next, for all the suffering of Muslim women, this article in its rhetorical flow puts sole blame on religion (Islam), which does not concur with serious scholarly understanding. Many scholars like John L. Esposito, G. Minault and others have argued that the status of women in Islam was profoundly affected not only by the fact that Islamic belief interacted with diverse cultures, but also, and of equal importance, that the interpreters of Islamic law and tradition has been men (religious scholars or Ulama) from these cultures. S.A.A. Maududi’s Purdah and Maulana A.A. Thanawi's Bahishti Zewar (Jewelry of Paradise) needs special mention here as they have played a vital role in shaping, humble, submissive to family, and religious image of Muslim women in Indian sub-continent. Besides these, there are other factors like lower socio-economic and education level of the community (in both men and women) and the communally charged social milieu, too can contribute to the subjugation of women. However, I wanted to ask question to Ms. Nasreen and the likes; are women free of religious obligations, free in true sense.
Thirdly, her blames of partiality in favour of men by Allah in reference to Surah Al-Nur 24:31, is a baseless and half-baked truth. Ms. Nasreen forgot to mention the Surah Al-Nur 24:30, which is addressing to men. It says, "Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And God is well acquainted with all that they do". If we look at the two verses, one without other is imperfect. Thus, the rule of modesty applies to men as well as women. Without any discrimination, Islam gives permission to men and women both to go out according to the mentioned injunctions and restrictions.
However, mix-up of Islam with local cultures and other important factors have blunted its progressive ideology. For instance, Islam does not legitimize hierarchy within the Muslim community. But, here in India, Muslim social structure is vertically divided on caste lines. On the same vein, Muslim women are the victims of patriarchal social practices legitimized through the wrong interpretations of Quran, rather than the victims of Islam itself. Thus, fight should be directed against such practices within the framework of Islam, instead of 'burning burqas'. Further, Muslim women and men should fight together for the conditions, which stimulate the democratization of community.

Manzoor
Delhi, India
Jan 31, 2007 12:00 AM
311
Reading Taslima's article just shows how much she knows about Islam and the way she interprets it. I guess this is because she was not taught to interpret Islam the right way. She tells everyone about her father who subjugated her mother. It looks as if she had a very sad and terrorized childhood. If we look back at history we will find a number of such examples in every religion and country. This is the way cultures and religions evolve according to anthropologists. But, I have this very strong feeling that she did not read the Quran or even asked any women who have taken to purdah willingly. Taslima can make any statement on purdah and I am sure she will continue to do so irrespective of her culture or her background. It is good to read articles from a person who is exiled from her own country and now how she is trying to sway other people. Not just Islam, even the people who believe in it will benefit from this article as it will show them how wrong one can be when you do not follow a religion with it's deeper meaning and its tenets. She has even tried to quote the Quran with her own interpretation which may please or anger many. To those who are angry, remember Islam or any other religion will not be maligned by people of little or no understanding. For those who are pleased, remember everyone will be held accountable fro everytghing you say whether it is in this world or in hereafter life(if you believe in one!!!!) For me, I am trying hard to get to the deeper meaning because I don't think God would allow such equality as depicted by Talsima in her interpretation.
Rubina Majid
Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
Jan 27, 2007 12:00 AM
310
Ask a similar question to the R. S. S. types, who are also masters at wiping out. Or, perhaps, you do not need to as you are an R. S. S. type.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 27, 2007 12:00 AM
309
JOSEPH OF KARACHI
"Conversion of Muslims to Christianity fall under Apostacy "

Apostacy or conversion to Christianity and Judaism is also known as becoming 'Murtad' in Islam the punishment for which is death. Stop scuttling sideways all the time and face things as they are.

Secondly was the entire community mentiones in the editorial guilty of defaming the Prophet or his book and that is why they were wiped out. And if it was illegal what has the Puristani state done so far.
vikas ranjan
gurgaon, India
Jan 27, 2007 12:00 AM
308
JOSEPH OF KARACHI
"Mr. Vikas Ranjan, I immediately corrected my self by saying that Pakistan is not as bad, repeat not as bad, as Indians believe it to be, which clarification you have conveniently ignored with all your deviousness in the Chanakyan mould."

Ever heard of Freud and Freudian Slips.Why bring Chanakya when you can explain it better with more modern and scientific concepts.
vikas ranjan
gurgaon, India
Jan 25, 2007 12:00 AM
307
Mr. Vikas Ranjan, I immediately corrected my self by saying that Pakistan is not as bad, repeat not as bad, as Indians believe it to be, which clarification you have conveniently ignored with all your deviousness in the Chanakyan mould.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 25, 2007 12:00 AM
306
The Laws that you have cited Mr. Vikas Ranjan relate to Blasphemy and do not relate to conversions forced or other wise. Please do not try to be too smart, too snide and too sarcastic for your own good.

Blasphemy laws relate to the desecration of the Holy Quran or blasphemy of Prophet Muhammad, etc. Conversion of Muslims to Christianity fall under Apostacy and not blasphemy. Conversions are regularly taking place in Pakistan. These are either way. Although very, very few Muslims have converted, the bulk of the conversions are from the Tribals or Bheels of Sindh and the Sudras of upper Sindh and lower Punjab. Missionary work goes on. However, the trend is now in to Inter-Faith Dialogue.

Again, there was no need to be snide. Can we not have decent dialogues with Indians?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 25, 2007 12:00 AM
305
MR.VIKAS RANJAN
If Chacha says no persecution of minorities then plese don't question.What my Chacha says is final !
This Daily is owned by some chap oh yes Nazam Sethi ...mmmm ...Sethis are Punjabi Hindus..
Margala Hills ,Faislabad can't be in Pak as Christians are SWARGWASI IN LAND OF PURE.
This is hate agenda of India against Pak..
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jan 25, 2007 12:00 AM
304
JOSEPH OF KARACHI
1.Mr. Vikas Ranjan, you will be happy to know that there is no bar to Conversions in Pakistan.

2. Pakistan is as bad as ill-informed Indian's believe it to be.

About point no 1

http://dailytimes.com.p...5\story_25-1-2007_pg3_1



To quote from the editorial;
“Islamabad plans to reform its blasphemy law that Christian churches and human rights groups say the Muslim majority uses to oppress religious minorities
Hundreds of innocent people have been harassed and kept in jails and outrightly killed through vigilante action by religious fanatics. One Christian bishop actually committed suicide when an innocent Christian was convicted by a sessions judge of Faisalabad simply because he was pressured by fanatic mobs standing outside his court baying for blood. Another law, related to alleged desecration of the Quran, has been lumped together with blasphemy and exploited widely in Pakistan. After the infamous case of Shantinagar near Khanewal, in which an entire Christian community was wiped out, another case in Sangla Hill took place in 2006 when another Christian community was torched, on the watch of Mr Mushahid Hussain’s party.

So what are these 'LAWS' constitutionally illegal or illegaly constitutional, or some other Puristani interpretation of religious freedom.

About point no 2, could not agree more with you.
vikas ranjan
gurgaon, India
Jan 24, 2007 12:00 AM
303
I agree with Taslima Nasrin's view. In fact, burkah, purdah or ghunghat, all are symbols of suppression and exploitation of women. These customs declare women to be object of enjoyment. Can we suppress the lust of men by using purdah or ghunghat? I think these customs increase their curiosity even more. What is not been done behind purdah or ghunghat in villages? Furthermore, these customs are unhygienic and harmful to health. However, who cares for the health of women. Today, when we are in 21st century women will have to tear up the bondage of burkah or ghunghat. Women have the same right to freedom as the men have. It is useless to talk of women-empowerment till they are in burkah or ghunghat. Today's women do not want to be called the second sex.
Jayshree Purwar,
President,
Kalyani Mahila Vikas Sansthan,
ORAI,U.P
Jayshree Purwar
ORAI, India
Jan 23, 2007 12:00 AM
302
Shahjan -first welcome to forum as another Pakistani.Regarding Burqua we are only talking in Indian context.But your vievs we will hear too.
A K GHAI
MUMBAI, India
Jan 23, 2007 12:00 AM
301
In my opinion...
reading the article, and then again, I draw a conclusion. But only on my part. I don't really see why anyone should need to agree with me anyways. The feelings expressed are not just about this specific article. But it's all according to me for and I am just expressing it.

I've been hearing people whining about Purda for a long time now. I really don't see why people need to tell others what to do and what not to do. Specially since the Internet has become so MASSIVELY available. It's ok to let people know how you feel, yes. But what's with the imposing tones in the articles? Come on!

There was a time when religion was a community thing, and that's what Islam was all about. But now as most of the planet is connected 24/7, the community has become larger and has a lot of other religions in it as well. And the people who are learning more from this inter-religious community, want to adopt easier things from all of the other religions subconsciously. Because that's what humans do. We adopt, and then we produce more like us in due time.

So what I see now is that a bunch of retards (for the lack of a better word), telling other people that they don't wear a purda and the others should throw them away because 'they' thought it was unnecessary. You've got to be kidding me. Why do you guys NEED to impose things on others?

It's a behavior people put out when they feel guilty of doing something. Although they have the balls to do it, true. But they just can't stop the guilt because they know they're breaking laws. Now as kids, we've been told many a times that "breaking the laws is bad". And that's ingrained in us, in our minds.

So when people who are basically nobodys, "tell" other people what to do, they want partners to feel less guilty. Sharing the guilt. And then, when enough of us are sharing that guilt, it doesn't mean anything anymore.

People who are "somebodys", have a lot of better things to do.

But the real question still hangs, who are you to tell anyone?
Shahjahan Akber
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 21, 2007 12:00 AM
300
THE VEIL UNVEILED
The laws of the veil in the Qur'an and in the Sunnah, the Hadiths, Traditions, are not the eternal wisdom of Allah or Muhammad. They are in fact merely the demands of Umar, one of Muhammad's most devoted followers. The proof is in the Hadiths and the Qur'an Commentary, Tafsir, of Ibn Kathir, online at altafsir.com

The Muslim women were forced to live in seclusion and wear a veil, another of Umar’s inspirations that became a revelation.
Umar had been asking Muhammad to impose the veil on them but he hadn’t done so. Aisha said, Umar bin Al-Khattab used to say to Allah's Apostle "Let your wives be veiled!" But he did not do so. He said this because he desired eagerly that the verses for the veiling of women may be revealed.
Umar said, ‘And as regards the verse of the veiling of the women, I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! I wish you ordered your wives to cover themselves from the men because good and bad ones talk to them.' But Allah's Messenger did not do that. Then Sauda, the wife of Allah's Messenger went out during one of the nights when it was dark. She was a tall large lady. Umar called her saying: ‘Sauda, we recognise you.’ He did this because he eagerly wanted a revelation for the veil.
So then the verse of the veiling of the women was revealed!
Bukhari: V1B4N148; V6B60N10-18, 438; V7B62N164; V8B74N257 Muslim: C7B26N5397

The Command of Hijab: Umar Inspires the Revelation
Qur’an 33:53 And when you ask (his wives) for anything, ask them from behind a screen. It is no sin on them before their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brother's sons, or the sons of their sisters, or their own women, or their (female) slaves.
Ibn Kathir says, ‘This is the verse of Hijab, the Veil, which includes several legislative rulings and points of etiquette. This is one of the cases where the revelation confirmed the opinion of Umar bin Al-Khattab. It was reported in the Two Sahihs that he said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, both righteous and immoral people enter upon you, so why not instruct the mothers of the believers to observe Hijab?' Then Allah revealed the verse of Hijab!''
Umar was given the gift of true inspiration which is the characteristic of Allah’s friends, named kashf or unveiling. The Prophet said, ‘In the nations long before you were people who were spoken to [by the angels] although they were not prophets. If there is anyone of them in my Community, truly it is Umar ibn al-Khattab. Allah has engraved truth on the tongue of Umar and his heart. If there were a Prophet after me truly it would be Umar.’

Qur’an 33.32 O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any other women. And stay in your houses, and do not Tabarruj yourselves like the Tabarruj of the time of ignorance!
The Tabarruj of the time of ignorance is when women go out of their homes and walk in front of men, or walk in a flirtatious way, or they dress in a revealing way.
Ibn Abbas and Ibn Kathir say, ‘This verse was revealed only about the wives of the Prophet. So they alone were the reason for revelation.’

Qur’an 33:59 O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to put their Jalabib, cloaks, over their bodies. That will be better that they should be known so as not to be annoyed.
Ibn Kathir says: Here Allah tells His Messenger to command the believing women to draw their Jilbabs, cloaks over their bodies so that they will be distinct in their appearance from the non-Muslim women and from slave women.
Ibn Abbas said that Allah commanded the believing women when they went out of their houses for some need to cover their faces from above their heads with the Jilbab, leaving only one eye showing.

Jennifer King
London, United Kingdom
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
299
This dialogue sucks! Nothing constructive emerges. All rules of reasoned debate are flouted. Guerilla tactics, dirty tricks and so on are used. Smugness characterizes some voices and hate others. Mere ungentlemanly jousting.
But seriously since so much is at stake atleast civilized discussions should not drop to the lows I see here.
More than a half-century of modern India and the name-calling and abuse of the “other “ is higher pitched than ever.
As any minority will empathise, calling negative attention to the shortcomings of a group strangely does not help remove them. It makes groups and individuals more defensive and xenophobic. Calling Muslims, names wont help.
Instead, what the reformists, Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Parmahans and Gandhi and our constitutional fathers did was to preach and codify change for all ills perceived and conceived. The result was greater freedom for all.
Enlightened government must do the same without colouring the situation saffron or anti- anybody.
I do not see a way different from this. Some uniform codes regarding certain personal things.
To keep up with the times.
Cool, impassioned steps meant to increase the well-being of all!

The discussion has to be without reference to religion and faith. Secular I mean!
Now which party in Inida fits the bill?
Does not exist!
As for the burqua that started this dialogue, seriously I dont know too many ladies who don it..and that must say something about the garment or me!
And about the passion the garment generates...like a red rag to so many.
If you dont like the burqua then do not marry or employ or consult or do business with one.
Those who like it will do the opposite. And market forces will decide the winners.
Guys chill! Seriously.
Bindu Tandon
Mumbai, India
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
298
Now let us see what the latest simian tantrum is all about…

“do not confuse issues by raising extraneous counter-questions… would like three clear cut answers… No wiggling…”

You want fries with that order Joey Chacha….yeah right!!!

So, after your habitual lying and obfuscation on forced conversions was caught out - you resort to oldest trick in the book – asking “why do you beat your wife” questions. How subtle?

Good try – hope you did you not have to get help on this little piece of work from your neighborhood gay LeT mullah though, did you.

I’ve to admit – that misdirection from you was almost as subtle as using Zakir Naik to defend the liberal nature’s conversion laws in Pakistan – ever heard of the creep’s views on apostasy… www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdJnFsKfcoE
Seems like your source to support the notion of “unencumbered conversions” like to think of apostasy as a crime punishable by death…typical Paki tainted “evidence”.

“I am providing you the choice”
So it looks like you want us Indians to answer all kinds of questions, in stead of you Pakis performing the simple act of stopping the killing of women and children here in India. Sometimes, it is some 2.5% question, sometimes it’s the sex-tourism question and a host of other well-supplied questions. Buwe Bad Indians don seem to anser your questions, do we.

Sure – we’ll answer them. But you do something first:

Going by the MSK case in Australia, we know that you Pakis will end up using “cultural traditions” as an excuse for gang rape and of course you Pakis claim to be misunderstood, when you rape women who “deserve to be raped [according your spwan]”, since on the streets of Aus/US they had the audacity not to wear hijab. So, here's something you can do - in stead of taking the chance of hurting some little girls somewhere, and risking further damage to women in the US, register your Pak spawn and other relevant family with
http://www.state.nj.us/...info/reg_sexoffend.html
- go ahead and do that, and let us know when you do that, we Indians will answer all your little questions – oK. You can choose to neuter them too, if you’d like.

C’mon Paki don’t delay – quickly register our spawn or neuter. So, Pak boy – I’m also “providing you a choice”….huh!

“character assassination” – you’re a Paki for crying out loud – what hypothetical character are we talking about here – how’s it even possible to assassinate your character.

Try again...
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
297
In other words, LBMN, I am providing you the choice to answer three questions that you are best prepared to answer, and also the option to visit here:

http://search.yahoo.com...al%20Riots%20In%20India


and here

http://search.yahoo.com...20Riots%20In%20Pakistan

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
296
If a genuine mistake of mistaking you for Mr. Vikas Ranjan or vice versa, LBMN, is purported to be trickery, you have arguably the dirtiest trickiest mind in all of India. Answer my questions. Please do not confuse issues by raising extraneous counter-questions.

I am asking you five clear cut questions and would like three clear cut answers. No wiggling or squigling . No character assasination. No denigration. No lies and deceit.

Question 1. Why do Muslim's get just one-fifth of their due share?.

Question 2. What are forced Re-conversions?.

Question 3. How much does Sex-Tourism contribute to India's GNP?.

Question 4. What is the need to hide behind preudonyms, aliases and false locations?.

Question 5. Is it because your friends, relatives and acquaintences will be embarrased by your warped, sick,views and foul temper?.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
295
“Please do not shift the goalosts, LBMN. You asked me about a Constitutional Bar and I told you that there was none.”

I actually did NOT ask you about any constitutional bar – Mr Ranjan did. But, I do understand, that this little trickery will allow you to deflect the discussion on the practice of “forced nikaah” in Pakistan. But, nice try.

“you stoop down into specefics… comment upon what are 'Mass Re-conversions”
Translation:
Let us not focus on forced nikaah and the gentle Pakistani habit of kidnap-rape-and-force-conversions, but let us throw something out there that has nothing to do with Pakistani norm of forced coversions to obfuscate and lie about the issue. And in any case, how dare someone force a lying Pakistani to get down to specifics….
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
294
Please do not shift the goalosts, LBMN. You asked me about a Constitutional Bar and I told you that there was none.

Not being able to digest because it went against your percieved vision, you stoop down into specefics. I do not intend to do so as there is much that is bad in the Religious sphere in both countries.

Kindly, however, comment upon what are 'Mass Re-conversions?. Is that or is that not coercion?.

Thank you.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
293
I*nstead of slamming me, Mr. K. K. Lol, please educate me where I am wrong. In general parlance CAL stands for Calcutta now Kolkata and in a few case Calicut now Khozikode. I am sorry about the misunderstanding but pray tell me where do you really belong?.

As for not knowing about Islam, I will not tell you about how much I know or do not know but suffice it to say that I have attended Course at the International Islamic University, Islamabad as a part of my erstwhile job requirement.

At the basic level Islam has Five Tenets or Pillars, and one of them states that Muhammad is Allah's Messenger. It would be 'blasphemous' of a Muslim to say that he believed in anything or body other than Allah. In the Naats, Muhammad has been raised to almost the ultimate but Muslims make it quite clear that they do not ascribe 'Divinity' to him as Christians do to the Christ. He is deemed to be 'The Perfect Human Being'.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
292
Mr. Raj Bodepudi, the Pakistani Muslims you meet are far more sophisticated and urbane than the average Indian Muslim, and, I dare say, 99 per cent of the Indians you are likely to socialise with. This is because Pakistan is more 'elitist' than India. This may not be a good thing but it is, nevertheless, a fact.

Let me tell you that Indian's have a far more warped impression about Pakistan than vice versa. This is because till only recently India was a terribly closed society. The pendulum may have swung the other way but it still has not touched 750 million people.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
291
Thank you for your kind invitation. We usually travel to the U. S. A. and Canada in July each year. If and when I do visit my daughter-in-law's Mamu, Dr. Christopher Dean from Valpraiso, I shall make it a point to visit you.

Take care.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
290
Sorry. Please read as... Pakistan is not as bad..... My afternoon siesta beckons. Cheers.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
289
"there is no bar to Conversions in Pakistan."

Translation:

More appropriately there seems to be NO bar to FORCED conversions either in Pakistan, as in:

"Forced conversions figures reach between 500 to 600 people a year in Pakistan, although "national media report only 100 such cases" that police and the courts "treat prejudicially". This was the most significant conclusion of a meeting on Forced Conversion of Women and Minorities Rights in Pakistan..."

"In several cases, where girls were said to have eloped with their Muslim lovers, subsequent investigations revealed that most were abducted, forcibly married to Muslim men or sold to them...."

"Outrage at the death of a Catholic boy forced to convert to Islam at the hands of torturous abductors has prompted the Pakistan Catholic Bishop's Commission of Justice and Peace, to take up the legal case. The Christian youth died of injuries inflicted by a teacher and students at an Islamic school..."

lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
288
Mr. Vikas Ranjan, you will be happy to know that there is no bar to Conversions in Pakistan. The Christian Churches here have missionaries from at least 16 countries if not more including Spain and Sri Lanka. Conversions do take place from the Tribal Hindus and some Muslims as well.

Recently in an interview on a Pakistani Television Channel, Mr. Zakir Naik of the IRF, Mumbai conceded that Muslims were becoming Christians in Pakistan, India and some parts of Sub-Saharan Africa and although for a Muslim this was a cause for disappointment, there was satisfaction to be derived from the fact that the numbers entering Islam were far greater than the numbers exiting it.

Yes, I know of at least two Muslims in my acquaintance who have become Christians in Pakistan and are living unfettered lives.

If one takes a holistic view of life and has a strong understanding that life is a two-way street such issues that are raised in this Forum will be seen in a less narrow perspective.

Pakistan is as bad as ill-informed Indian's believe it to be.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
287
One is quite familiar, Mr. Raj Bodepudi, with the violent history of the Christian Church and Islam. However, would being unfair in suggesting that such behaviour is a black spot or a major blot on the teachings and guidance these two Religions provide in matters spiritual and temporal.

For better or for worse, Religions will stay. They may reform, evolve and change to smoothen out some of their unwanted edges in today's context but they will be there for time immemorial. Communism was a modern day Religion but it died away. On the other hand Hinduis is, perhaps, more than 6,000 years old with its warts and all.

Relidion whether one likes it or not is here to stay. It may be as Marx once observed the opiate of the poor but the poor is at least 50 per cent of us.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
286
Chaitanya,

>> "can you tell us the difference between..."

"Unless proven to be beneficial to all" is a tall order, never heard of before, and invented by our deceitful propagandist.



Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
285
JOSEPH OF KARACHI
"I have no problem with Yousuf Youhana becoming Muhammad Yousuf. Life is a two-way street. If only Indians understood that, South Asia would be a far better Region."

Would you please give me the reference to the article in the Puristani Constitution or LFO or whatever it is called, giving the right to the missionaries to preach and convert in Puristan.
And do tell me what are the rewards for turning 'murtad' as given in the Hadees.
vikas ranjan
gurgaon, India
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
284
JOSEPH OF KARACHI
"I have no problem with Yousuf Youhana becoming Muhammad Yousuf. Life is a two-way street. If only Indians understood that, South Asia would be a far better Region."

A two way street would also involve a Muhamad Yousuf becoming a Yousuf Yohanna, some one in Kashmir did and got promptly bumped off, another gentleman in Afghanistan tried the two way street and is now running for dear life.
vikas ranjan
gurgaon, India
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
283
Muslims rioting in bangalore after friday sermons.
Is there anything new!
Yesterday was friday ,take note of it.
kk lol
cal, India
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
282
JOSEPH the hypocrite,
>>"Muslims believe in Allah and not in Muhammad"
Do you know what is sahada in Islam?

You claim to be a journalist on socio-economic issues.
religion plays a huge role Pakistani society.
Here you display your ignorance about the
basic tenets of Islam.
You are not fit to be a journalist.
In your entire career did you dared to write anything negative
about ISlam?
You have no problem harping about the ills of Hinduism
did you do the same about Islam?
I guess you were afraid that your head would be chopped off
if you did so.
What a hypocrite!

More over how did you know I live in kolkata?
I have never said that I'm from kolkata.
You assumed that I live in kolkata and called
me hypocrite based on your assumption.
I wonder if you did the same thing your whole
life as a journalist.
what a shame!
you calling yourself a journalist.

kk lol
cal, India
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
281
correction in my earlier post.

read mobs for "bombs"
shankar
Mumbai, India
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
280
"The Hindu did not use the word - Muslim - in that article posted by Shankar."

How can they ? They are "secular" and "liberal"..beside they also value their lives..Both the Indian Express and Deccan Herald in Bangalore have apologised to muslims in Bangalore recently for hurting their sentiments, after muslim bombs attacked their offices.

Ofcourse if it was a Hindu mob , then "chaddi" , "sanghi" , "saffron mobs" would have been fare game..after all a Hindu has no sentiments which can be hurt.wonder why I never hear the word "green mobs" in this case ?
shankar
Mumbai, India
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
279
The believers have the first claim on Arson in the new year as well..

" The police said the trouble erupted when a group of people marching towards Shivajinagar Stadium from K.G. Halli to attend a rally organised by the newly formed People's Front to protest the execution of Saddam Hussein and "U.S. imperialism." The processionists set on fire some banners on Seppings Road in Bharatinagar.

A group of people took objection to this which led to a clash. Those who were part of the procession started attacking houses, vehicles and shops with stones, the police said. The mob started burning vehicles parked on the road and throwing stones on Thimmaiah Road. Arsonists barged into a web-designing centre, damaged computers and set them on fire. The mob barged into several houses and shops, ransacked them and looted valuables. "


http://www.hindu.com/20...es/2007012014930100.htm


Why are you "seculars" and "liberals" supporting such arsonand loot by believers? What has a resident of bangalore got to do with hanging of saddam ? Why dont you muslims go to Iraq and fight americans if you are hurt ? Please Get out of India and allow others to lead theri lifes peacefully.

"
Violence broke out when demonstrators tried to force Hindu shopkeepers to close their shops in the communally sensitive area of Shivajinagar in the centre of the city."

http://today.reuters.co...Loc=World-R5-Alertnet-3


And 2 interesting points..1.The meet was organised By Congress Leaders and most of the speakers were also from congress. 2. A big cut out of George Bush was dispalyed at the entrance of meeting and evry one was supposed to spit at it before entering.( as per Bangalore print edition of Indian express )

Not even half a muslim protested in bangalore against recent mumbai train bombings btw.
shankar
Mumbai, India
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
278
Bodepudi,

Buddha: " Do not be hasty to believe a thing even if everyone repeats it, or even if it is written in holy scripture or spoken by a teacher revered by the people. Accept only those things which accord with your own reason, things which the wise and virtuous support, things which in practice bring benefit and happiness-"

So when you "paraphrased" this to, "unless proven to be beneficial to one self, AND ALL others", you were lying, were you not? It is the hate inside of you that makes you a liar.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
277
The Buddha on "BELIEF"

The Kalamans to the Buddha: "Can you tell us whom we should believe and whom we should not"?

Buddha: " Do not be hasty to believe a thing even if everyone repeats it, or even if it is written in holy scripture or spoken by a teacher revered by the people. Accept only those things which accord with your own reason, things which the wise and virtuous support, things which in practice bring benefit and happiness-"

This Sutra was spoken, over 2,550 years ago!

Quoted from "Old Path White Clouds" By Thich Nhat Hanh, PP 420



Raj Bodepudi
Oak Brook, United States
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
276
Dear Joe:

When you are visiting the US, please visit us in Chicago. I will introduce you to Pakistani friends who had a massive meeting denouncing the Islamic terror against Christians in Pakistan. We had a similar, even bigger one, denouncing the Modi Govt in 2002. You will be surprised to meet many Pskistani Moslem friends far less bigoted than ones from India, for some mysterious reasons.
Raj Bodepudi
Oak Brook, United States
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
275
Bodepudi says,

>> because they were COMMANDED to do so-"Kill the Infidels"
>> The FAITHFUL are implanted with receivers in their brains to kill through the remote-to fly the planes as missiles

This guy has no understanding of either history or religion. He is a loose canon in our cyberspace.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
274
Bodepudi,

>> then this belief is INTRINSICALLY deadly

Bigots like you are the most deadly creatures in forums like this, using free cyberspace to spread your hate and ignorance.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
273
Bodepudi says,

>> don't spend rest of your life defending the Terrorists and their hideous ideology.

I condemn the terrorists and I also condemn stupid hate mongers like yourself.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
272
"One does not denigrate a Religion because of the deviant behaviour of some adherents" Joseph

This is non-sense, dear Joe. Fanatics slaughtered millions of Hindus and Buddhists because they were COMMANDED to do so-"Kill the Infidels". Precisely because they were GUARANTEED to go directly to HEAVEN, without the tedious court proceedings on the Judgement Day! And, virgins to boot!

The FAITHFUL are implanted with receivers in their brains to kill through the remote-to fly the planes as missiles, to use human bodies as killing fields-on and on.

Please tell me, dear Joe, about the Sermon on the Mount, for a change. Let's throw positive light on early Christians.

If somehow we forgot the entire history and evidence of the existence of ALL religions, do we miss any of them? Where do we start from, today?
Raj Bodepudi
Oak Brook, United States
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
271
I'm not sure if in the 40 odd posts this has been touched upon, but here'e my two paise.
Usually, I find myself cheering for Tasleema, but I think there's another angle to this: what if a woman *wants* to wear a burqa/hijaab/headscarf? Why is a woman's attire and sexuality-or rather the heterosexual man's verison of it-ultimately anybody's business but hers?
Tariq Ali's 'Clash of Fundamentalisms' talks about how the veil became fashionable in Egypt and (ironically) freed women to basically 'pick up' guys in bars without being recognized!
I can't be sure, but I think I'd oppose any dictates on a person's choice to dress how they want: especially legislative dictates.
Preyas
Chicago, USA
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
270
If you are faithful that you will be rewarded with heavenly virgins and deligghts by killing the Infidels-and by flying planes into crowded buildings, then this belief is INTRINSICALLY deadly. How could such a Faith and Belief system endure for over a millennium, unscrutinized by evidence and unchallenged by reason?

This is where the secular fanatics had failed the entire world in not confronting this faith and dogma centric ideology, until today. Were it not for this unfolding monumental tragedy, Chomskys and Rays would have been laughed at as merely clowns in a circus.
Raj Bodepudi
Oak Brook, United States
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
269
"called you stupid, not Buddha. You are too idiotic to paraphrase Buddha, let alone understand him." Ghulam

Direct from Qur'anic DNA-Physical and verbal terror, out of primordial ignorance. Please quote the entire Kalam Sutra in its entiretyy and please rephrase it better, if you are for a genuine debate. Focus on the issue, not on persons, dear Ghulam. Please don't spend rest of your life defending the Terrorists and their hideous ideology
Raj Bodepudi
Oak Brook, United States
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
268
Bodepudi,

>> These clever one liners are coming from the Qur'anic study and, hence, from DEEP IGNORANCE.

That shows both your ignorance and your insolence.

>> The point is such FAITH must be discarded.

You can discard any faith that you want. But to speak that way about other people's faith shows your dastardliness and your imbicility.

>> if FAITH leads to such terror, we need to investigate the validity of that Faith itself.

Go and investigate Osama bin Laden's fasith. That is not my faith. But an idiot like you will not understand that.

>> You are so kind in calling Him stupid

I called you stupid, not Buddha. You are too idiotic to paraphrase Buddha, let alone understand him.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
267
"If there was evidence, we would not call it faith." Ghulam

These clever one liners are coming from the Qur'anic study and, hence, from DEEP IGNORANCE. The point is such FAITH must be discarded.Many Moslems are convinced that God is the designer of women's clothing and there followed the rioting in Nigeria in 2002 Miss World Pageant that killed over 200 lives. Paramedics in Mecca refused helping teenage girls trapped in a burning building because they wee not wearing head covering? 14 dead and many wounded.

9/11? Based not on economics or politics but on the FAITH of Martyrdom? One crazy person now can kill millions of innocents.

In other words, if FAITH leads to such terror, we need to investigate the validity of that Faith itself. Reason alone brings conviction and correctness to Faith, making it closer to th world of REALITY.



>> "unless proven to be beneficial to one self, AND ALL others"-Raj

"I never heard anything more stupid." Ghulam

I have paraphrased what the Buddha told the Kalamans, 2,550 year ago. You are so kind in calling Him stupid, while your ancestrors killed millions of Buddhists ONLY because they were "Infidels", based on Quran.

Grow up, dear Ghulam
Raj Bodepudi
Oak Brook, United States
Jan 20, 2007 12:00 AM
266
I am sorry to say that it is you who is making a huge ass of himself. Muslims believe in Allah and not in Muhammad.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
265
Read Kolkata or Calcutta
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
264
Being an atheist and a Hindu at the same time is a bit disengenous. Will other Hindus help me understand this.

By the way, Mr. K. K. Lol, how do I become a hypocrite?. I always thought that hypocrisy is like calling Calcutta, Cal or Calcutta.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
263
I have no problem with that. In my extended family covering four continents and 10 countries, we have Muslims and Hindus. Some have converted. Others have not.

I have no problem with Yousuf Youhana becoming Muhammad Yousuf. Life is a two-way street. If only Indians understood that, South Asia would be a far better Region.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
262
That is a fact, Mr. K. K. Lol, and are black spots on these two Religions. One does not denigrate a Religion because of the deviant behaviour of some adherents.

I do not deny these things unlike Indians about India and Hindus about Hinduism
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
261
YOU KNOW SOMETHING, mR. pARBAT LALDENG, i GET A FAR GREATER BELLY LAUGH FROM THE FACT THAT YOU NRI TYPES SING PAENS TO INDIA ESCONSED IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD VISITING ONLY RELUCTANTLY FOR WEDDINGS AND FUNERALS.

VISIT MUMBAI AND STAY IN DHOBI TALAO FOR A WEEK AND THEN TALK ABOUT BEING A WIMP, A DUFFER OR A TWERP.

YOU GUYS ARE DOWNRIGHT HYPOCRITES. GET A BELLY LAUGH ON THAT ONE AND TELL ME. AND NO FOUL LANGUAGE IN REACTION.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
260
Joseph:

Consider. Reflect. Use a borrowed brain as you lack one.

But don;t stop your priceless oubursts. I get a belly laugh from each one.

How come you Pereiras from Pakistan denounce Pakistan when abroad? The ISI might be interested in that.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
259
Joseph:

Consider. Reflect. Use a borrowed brain as you lack one.

But don;t stop your priceless oubursts. I get a belly laugh from each one.

How come you Pereiras from Pakistan denounce Pakistan when abroad? The ISI might be interested in that.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
258
>>"one of the basic tenets of Christianity and Islam which is Missionary Work."

like the kind of missionary work Islamic Invasion did in india
or the kind Christians did to the aztecs and mayans.
kk lol
cal, India
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
257
Jamaal,
>>"If going by your logic of what is true of one, is true of all, after Nithri incident all hindus should be considered as pedophiles,killers and cannibals, (which is not true), Right!"

how many Hindus says what happened in Nithari is perfect and should be followed by every Hindu?
now consider how many muslims think Muhammed was
a role model and all muslims should follow his actions.
kk lol
cal, India
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
256
JOSEPH the hypocrite,
>>"You may dispute the methodology but you can not challenge the right to convert."

have you voiced your concern for the muslims right
to convert?
kk lol
cal, India
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
255
JOSEPH the hypocrite,
You just expose your ignorance about Hinduism.
Hinduism does not force you to believe in any God
or gods unlike Islam or Christianity.
I have said it before and let me repeat ,
you can be a athiest and still be a Hindu.
(google "Charvaka and Hinduism" to know more)

The definition of religion that you have is from
the western/Christian perspective where you have to believe in some God to be a member of that religion.
Therefore to be a Christian you have to believe
in Jesus/Holy trinity or to be a muslim you have to believe in Muhammed/Allah.
You cease to be a Christian the moment you stop
believing in Jesus ,same thing with the muslims.
You are no longer a muslim once you stop believing
in Muhammed.
Hinduism does not suffers from such restrictions.
You are trying to apply the same definition with respect to Hinduism.
In the process you are making an ass out of yorself.
kk lol
cal, India
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
254
Nandu :
"what ever krishna might have done, he might have sex with 16,000 women or had sex with all gopis in gokul, nothing matches rape of 9 year old child."

Lets see what Krishna has done. He spoke Bhagavad Gita on one hand and had amorous relations with another man's wife on the other. While Muhammads marriage with a kid may be morally acceptable in those circumstances Krishnas behaviour was wrong even in those days and by those morality.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
253
>> "When folks in these columns take so much hurt and offence for statements made that are divergent from theirs"

Or rather "statements that are beyond the pale"

>> "Some, like Ghulam, are our dear brothers, but deeply confused"

Or rather, trying to knock some sense in your head.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
252
Bindu:

When folks in these columns take so much hurt and offence for statements made that are divergent from theirs, why is so difficult to imagine the horrific slaugher wrought on millions of innocent Hindus-Buddhists-Parsees_Jews, et al., based on the Qur'anic commandment to "Kill the Indidels"? Christian fanatics did precisely that, few centuries ago.

This is where Nehru, Gandhi, Chomsky, Roy and others dangerously misled us WITHOUT frontally confronting the DANGEROUS FAITH-BASED terror.
That one could attain martyrdom by killing maximum number on innocents is simply UNACEPTABLE and if it's faith-based-that Faith has to be pushed out of India, lock, stock and barrel, any such faith, by force.

Some, like Ghulam, are our dear brothers, but deeply confused. He and others should be OPENLY writing letters to Mullahs and Moulvis for closing ALL Madarasas and Mosques in India-since they are breeding faith-based terror, unending. It will go on with far worse consequences than we had seen, until the Qur'anic Constitution itself is debated and permanently amended.

Human beings are ONE-there are no Fidels and In-Fidels-all are suffering in the prison of ignorance. We ALL are prisoners WE can never be free until ALL are on the PATH to FREEDOM.
Raj Bodepudi
Oak Brook, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
251
>> "FAITH with no evidence"

If there was evidence, we would not call it faith.

>> "unless proven to be beneficial to one self, AND ALL others"

I never heard anything more stupid.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
250
So lets just dump her bangla ass in bangladesh and let the bangla bandhus decide what they want o do with her.


u got that right mate... adn that goes double for all the other "illegal" bangladeshi migrants in northeast, bengal, bihar and the rest of india..
chester pester
timbaktoo, timbaktoo
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
249
Bodepudi,

>> Osama Bin Laden OPENLY wants to impose on India-the Sharia Law. Focus on what Al Queda and in fact the Qur'anic faith had done

You equate Osama bin Laden with Islam, and then you consider yourself capable of having a meaningful dialogue!!! You are nothing more than a comic figure. Stop taking yourself so seriously.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
248
lol and others...

dont you make the mistake of asking jojo boyo for data... he has time and again demonstrated his expertise at pulling data out of his posterior.
i am tired of his crap.. please do us all a fvaor and ignore this nincompoop called joe from karachi. bloody spammer..
chester pester
timbaktoo, timbaktoo
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
247
"What morality are we talking here"

The morality of reason and of genuine doubt. Not to accept anything said or written, based on FAITH with no evidence, unless proven to be beneficial to one self, AND ALL others
Raj Bodepudi
Oak Brook, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
246
"such as reducing Muslim population to 1947 percentages, which in fact border on a Hitlerian kind of "solution". Will your senseless tirades ever end"

These are most thought out ONLY solutions for peace. Islamic PRACTICE was and is based on FAITH with no reason and room for doubt and NO EVIDENCE . That's what Osama Bin Laden OPENLY wants to impose on India-the Sharia Law. Focus on what Al Queda and in fact the Qur'anic faith had done and is doing rather than diverting attention with one-liners, betraying both dangerous ignorance and instantaneously verifiable bigotry.

Nehru, Chomsky and Roy and other secular fanatics were and are responsible for this "rise" of FAITH with no EVIDENCE and should take most blanme for this unending Islamic terror. Had they confronted religious fanaticism based on FALSEHOOD and DOGMA head on, we would have practically none who might yet believe they are going straight to Heaven "with those dark-eyed virgins" by making themselves into bombs. The blatant and dangerous falsehood of the the Bible, Qur'an and the Vedas need to be debated and confronted before we are done away with, long before global warming turns the globe into cosmic ash.
Raj Bodepudi
Oak Brook, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
245
>> "I talk about lot of things in a progressive way and justify them"

Good for you! I shall look out for such posts.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
244
To find out the numbers leaving Hinduism as against those entering it, you may seek your answer from Mr. Bal Thackeray. He and his party and the R. S. S. were making a great hue and cry about this which impelled them to attempt 'mass re-conversions' and consider initiating laws to curb conversions. My information about India is taken from Indian sources. This can only mean that either you are misinformed or the Indian Media is?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
243
Mr. K. K. Lol, does it mean that being a Hindu allows one to believe what one chooses and discards what one finds inconvenient or unsuitable?.

I am flumoxxed. Lord Krishna is being discarded just because his cavorting with Gopis is uncomfortable to explain.

Then one will expect that from Mr. K. K. Lol ashe comes first even when it comes to calling Kolkata cal or Calcutta.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
242
Mr. K. K. Lol, does it mean that being a Hindu allows one to believe what one chooses and discards what one finds inconvenient or unsuitable?.

I am flumoxxed. Lord Krishna is being discarded just because his cavorting with Gopis is uncomfortable to explain.

Then one will expect that from Mr. K. K. Lol ashe comes first even when it comes to calling Kolkata cal or Calcutta.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
241
As a follower of a Religion that does not proselytise or encourage conversions-in, it is difficult for you to understand or appreciate, one of the basic tenets of Christianity and Islam which is Missionary Work.

You may dispute the methodology but you can not challenge the right to convert.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
240
Wishful thinking is the predominate sentiment in this Forum. India is a giant in terms of its size and population, yet its attitude toward its neighbours emanates from a pea-sized brain. The Hindu participants in this Forum are obsessed with Islam, Muslims, Pakistan and the basic sentiment is to wish that they all, somehow, just disappear. That is wishful thinking.

Then pages have been wasted on the Burqa with no useful purpose but to vent spleen against Islam.

When a non-Hindu talks about the other side of the picture, he or she is accused of being a twit, twerp, bigotted, liar and what have you.

One wonders whether schools and colleges in India have forgotten the moral side of being. Yes, one wonders.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
239
"If our tribalism is ever to give away to an extended moral identity, our religious beliefs can no longer be sheltered from the tides of genuine enquiry and genuine criticism"--- Sam Harris in "End of Faith""

Genuine enquiry and genuine criticism are good, especially if carried out by commentators and critics from within the same religion, or by writers from other religions reputed for their spirit of objective enquiry. In this forum however, with its high levels of mutual hatred and recrimination, almost all of the "criticism" edduced is of the mud-slinging variety and of the middle-school boy level. It generates great heat but no light. I do however agree absolutely with the concept of "an extended moral identity". God willing, someday!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
238
Nandu,

>> the greeks or the hindus have changed their ways or atleast trying change to suit 2007. the muslims want to go back 1500 years.

All power to the Greeks and the Hindus! My problem is not with the Hindus, but with the Nandus, who want to take back their level of dialogue to middle-school kid level.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
237
Nandu,

>> i got my answer. if you still think having sex with a 9 year old child just a petty thing, no further questions.

Seems you lie and misrepresent by force of habit. I did not say sex with a child is "petty". I said your mind is petty.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
236
Ref 1: Raj Bodepudi : If our tribalism is ever to give away to an extended moral identity, our religious beliefs can no longer be sheltered from the tides of genuine enquiry genuine criticism"--- Sam Harris in "End of Faith"

Raj, Absolutely! How can anybody believe that religious or so called religious dictates abt loving and living are absolutely foolish. We should take on board the morality of perfect living as an ideal rather than try to force irregular lives into perfect holy roles.
To this end the world has drafted reasonable laws regarding personal laws..and yes there are gross aberrations but the laid norm as in marriageable age or equality at work place or punishment for murder keep the framework and the rule of law going.
If we can examine Baby Bush going to war or Clinton with Lewinsky in the Whitehouse against laid norms and find them guilty why should religious dictates be exempt from enquiry?


Bindu Tandon
Mumbai, India
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
235
Suddenly, out of the blue ms nasrin writes this article. how come she suddenly discovered her love for muslim women. is she again following the time-tested method of bashing islam and muslims and gaining cheap publicity. it seems that another of her miserable books is about to be published and she is desperate for publicity and outlook has provided that platform, which she needed. i would like to ask the editor as to what was the sudden need for such an article.
It seems that the exiled author has taken passages out of quran and hadiths without the relevant references, just to suit her convenience and to settle her personal scores.
shoaib
mumbai, India
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
234
Forget about the past , let us look at the world view of the Muslim expatriates


http://dailytimes.com.p...9\story_19-1-2007_pg3_1


To quote some pertinent points
"Canada, like the United Kingdom, has suffered at the hands of Muslim imams or leaders of prayers in its mosques. Some time ago, some Canadian reporters secretly visited 15 of nearly 50 mosques in the Greater Toronto Area, to hear one cleric say, ‘Everyone must do what they can to help their brothers fight the struggle against infidels’. At one mosque the namazis called for a khilafat in Canada with an army ‘to rid the world of infidels once and for all’. The mosque imams warned their worshippers to stay away from western institutions. One said, ‘Evil Western values and haram (sin) surrounds Muslim children in Toronto’. All of them asked the followers to work towards converting Canada into an Islamic state rather than accept its secular values."

Similar sentiments were expressed by a Mullah in Australia as quoted in the Time of India today. Mind you the gentleman from Australia was born there and was not raised in the bondooks of some tribal society. It would appear no matter where you come from and no matter what the infidel has done for you ( asylum, equal rights), elimination of the infidel is still top priority.
vikas ranjan
gurgaon, India
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
233
TANVEER SAIYED,
what ever you wrote about 'meher' is true for dowry
system as well.
Why criticize dowry system and not the so called 'meher'?
kk lol
cal, India
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
232
JOSEPH mian,
Do you have any data to show that 'more Hindus are becoming Christians or Muslims than vice versa'?
You worry about the hell hole called Pakistan where you people have almost eliminated all the Hindus and Christians .
pot calling the kettle black.any one??

To be a Hindu I don't have to believe in Krishna
or whatever .so I don't think about what Krishna did nor i have to justify it.

You hypocrite should be the last person talking about caste system.You don't have the guts to oppose death penalty for apostasy in Islam .
Should a person not be free to choose one's religion?
kk lol
cal, India
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
231
KK,

Please re-read the content of earlier response. Do not let your hatred cloud your faculties. Just in case your bout of dimming faculties continues, "meher" may be paid upfront (meaning at the time of marriage) or it could be deferred, if mutually agreed by the parties concerned. The time of payment of the agreed sum does not alter its essence.
Tanveer Saiyed
Muscat, Oman
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
230
Let us not stoke further fires, Mr. K. K. Lol by bringing up over and over again the marriages of Muhammad, lest you are asked to justify the behaviour of Krishna. Can we not remain within the realm of the philosophical content of Krishna's and Muhammad's Teachings rather getting into the petty matter of their personal behaviour?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
229
When one believes, Mr. Raj Bodepudi irrespective of obvious contradictions and errors that is called Faith.

Faith will never end for that with hope and charity is what allows us to survive.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
228
The irony, Mr. K. IK. Lol, is that because of the demeaning nature of caste more Hindus are becoming Christians or Muslims than vice versa. If Hinduism and Hindus are to be at peace with themselves and others in the multi-polar society that is India, they must first correct the anamolies and faults within themselves before pinpointing and then highlighting the faults in other Religions and their adherents.

What is that adage about a physician healing himself or herself?. And the other one about a pot calling the kettle black?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
227
Bodepudi:
"1. Is Qur'an a true guide for peaceful existence with the "infidels"?

2. Why are there so many contradictions if it is a word (words) of God? Or even close?
"

Belief is a personal choice. You cant dictate how another person's religion should look like. Krishnas adultery has not encouraged adultery among Hindus. And dont even get me started on contradictions in Hinduism.

Bodepudi:
"Why should youth be misled into believing in a fictional martyrdom when in fact they will be creating hellish realms for themselves and their community?"

Ok go and educate them then. WHy pull up a Ghulam or a some syed eaking out his living in a peaceful way?

"When would the Islamic scholars and Mullahs write and openly atone for their genocidal history in India? Could there be lasting peace, if based on lies and cover-up of history? Could Germans ever make peace with the Jews by denying Holocaust?"

Valid point. I think Muslims have too much of love for themselves. They have such a romantic view of themselves that it is hard for them to comprehend that they can be viewn in another way by some genuinely liberal people.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
226
Read this


http://timesofindia.ind...h/articleshow/msid_1285


Fprget the sub-continent where we share too much of history and geography, can we live any where on the globe in peace with the love of sacrifice around.
vikas ranjan
gurgaon, India
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
225
Food for thought:
Muslims demanded a separate state and they got it.
Can they rest of the Indians demand the muslims
left in India to atleast change their faith?
Put another way,
should the muslims in India agree to change their faith in order to live in peace with the rest?
kk lol
cal, India
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
224
Bodepudi,

Do you have any thoughts at all on reducing communal hatreds and on how we can live peacefully together in the subcontinent? All that you have been doing is just stoking the fires of hatred by your endless repetitions of hypebolic accounts of Islamic conquests and by offering harebrained solutions such as reducing Muslim population to 1947 percentages, which in fact border on a Hitlerian kind of "solution". Will your senseless tirades ever end?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
223
Muslims seem to forget that they have as a role model a person who married a 6 or 9 year old.
Other people may have married 6/9 year old girls
but people don't hold them as role models whom they
want to follow ,whatever may be the customs.
kk lol
cal, India
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
222
" If religious war is ever to b4ecome unthinkable
for us, in the way that slavery and cannibalism
seem poised to ("I add caste-dowry structures-Raj"), it will be a matter of our having dispensed with the dogma of faith. If our tribalism is ever to give away to an extended moral identity, our religious beliefs can no longer be sheltered from the tides of genuine enquiry genuine criticism"--- Sam Harris in "End of Faith"

Joseph, Nandu, Chaitanya, Sundari, Ganesan, Bindu, et al--Please comment. This is what I was trying to say, perhaps using harsher language
Raj Bodepudi
Oak Brook, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
221
"Pleaee do not try to trivialize what Islam had done to Hindus and Buddhists."
"Don't exaggerate either" Ghulam

Please explain. Instead of one liners and evasion and abuse, please focus on what happened-how and why? Only then it aould be prevented from happening again. Throw light on Moslem history of India-not putting bad light on those who are trying to understand.

Talking of facts and TRUTH is hateful for you-no wonder you are the perfect Qur'anic scholar.




Raj Bodepudi
Oak Brook, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
220
Bodepudi,

>> Pleaee do not try to trivialize what Islam had done to Hindus and Buddhists.

Don't exaggerate either.

>> Is Qur'an a true guide for peaceful existence with the "infidels"?

Are your hateful posts in this forum conducive to peaceful existence?

>> When would the Islamic scholars and Mullahs write and openly atone for their genocidal history in India?

When will you atone for spreading so much hate in this forum?

>> Please focus on issues by going deeper into each one.

A deeper discussion with the likes of you? You make me laugh.






Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
219
Ghulam:

Pleaee do not try to trivialize what Islam had done to Hindus and Buddhists. You could add and subtract and amend based on your experiences and information, etc-from your own world view. You have every right to offer them just as every one else. Names and tags have no relevance.

1. Is Qur'an a true guide for peaceful existence with the "infidels"?

2. Why are there so many contradictions if it is a word (words) of God? Or even close?

3. Why should youth be misled into believing in a fictional martyrdom when in fact they will be creating hellish realms for themselves and their community?

4.When would the Islamic scholars and Mullahs write and openly atone for their genocidal history in India? Could there be lasting peace, if based on lies and cover-up of history? Could Germans ever make peace with the Jews by denying Holocaust?

5. How important is demographics for peace in India?

These are important issues that need to be debated. With your one liners you are diverting others away from a real dialogue and by whitewashing Islamic sins are further contributing to their mountains of evil karma accumulated since 712.

6. Hindu misdeeds should be addressed separately since that confuses the main issue at hand-Hindu right for a Hindu land, if majority of Indians so demand.

7. Please ficus on issues by going deeper into each one-not one liners and diversionary tactics. No name calling!
Raj Bodepudi
Oak Brook, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
218
""Small minds will selectively exploit this fact for their hate-mongering activity." Ghulam

Tens of Millions slaughered is a small "fact"?

Since it's a fact, where is the SMALL mind? If it were not true and factual, minds small or not would be an issue.

It's a very profound and a big issue, requiring bigger and better minds perhaps. To prevent Moslem friends from accumulating further evil Karmic dust-more than they had accumulated over the past 13 centuries!
Raj Bodepudi
Oak Brook, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
217
Bodepudi asks,

>> "Tens of Millions slaughered is a small "fact"?"

This is how he distorts. I had said, "Small minds will selectively exploit this fact for their hate-mongering activity." When did I say, "small fact"?

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
216

http://www.outlookindia.../pti_news.asp?id=444468


More recent news for you Taslima - even your Muslim brothers don't want you in India. Go home and take some of your Bengali brothers illegal squatters in Bihar and West Bengal with you.

India's resources and hospitality to your lot is not on forever basis.
Mini
Sydney, Australia
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
215
Looks like it's time for this worthless burden on India to renew her papers to extend her stay in India, So she is causing this insane controversy so it creates enough hysteria so that the Indian officers can justify her stay here. So lets just dump her bangla ass in bangladesh and let the bangla bandhus decide what they want o do with her.
asdf
asdf, asdf
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
214
Quote from KHALID SAEED "so what has ms.nasrin contribution been towards upliftment or alleviating the stifling of women ... ".

I agree - Go back home Taslima !! Fix your lot, from there.

Don't abuse Indian hospitality by take up precious and rant and rave as how amazingly brave you were for those few moments where you threw the burqa/never wore it. We don't care and why should we?

We don't want the clerics putting more sound-bytes on this and debating endlessly.
Don’t incite Indian public with your hateful and needless rant. It does not justify your stay here.

You don’t want true upliftment, you want free publicity and a “Oh, I come from poor Bangladesh, where our poor Muslim sisters are made to wear burqa and what I really want is education ... blah blah”.

Do the job, don’t blab on and on. Kaam kar, muh band kar.
Mini
Sydney, Australia
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
213
Bodepudi,

>> Islam had a disproportionate role in that ugly chapter.

Not if you have an honest and objective world view.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
212
"Small minds will selectively exploit this fact for their hate-mongering activity." Ghulam

Tens of Millions slaughered is a small "fact"?
Even a Hitler couldn't have made such an insensitive and an insincere remark!

Anyways, my notes were meant for the Indics and the victims of present and past terror-not for its perpetrators oand their open and secret their supporters.

Where is hate here except in your monumental insensitivity. Never once you tried to understand the gravity of the problem while even acknowledging my narratives as "facts".

It's like telling the Jews not to talk of Hitler since that's hate-mongering? It's even worse.

Let people speak on the ISSUE of ISLAMIC terror, past and present, writing from windows of their own experience and comprehension
Raj Bodepudi
Oak Brook, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
211
>> People will be dead if they don't match up to others' maturity.

Are you now a judge of maturity?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
210
"Cultures and civilizations have vanished in six continents from times immemorial as a part of the march of history" Ghulam

As part of the darker side of humanity, you could have said, correctly. Islam had a disproportionate role in that ugly chapter. We all agree that nothing could be done of the past. The point is not that. It's to prevent from it from repeating itself-which it will certainly will unless Hindus-Indics are TOTALLKY aware of the facts of their own history. Why should it bother others except the Al Queda and its supporters who openly avowed to Islamize India? In fact, they have already succeeded in doing so, partially
Raj Bodepudi
Oak Brook, United States
Jan 19, 2007 12:00 AM
209
Chaitanya says,

>> Let's hope so. Killing more than a billion at one go is a big blow and will be a haunting episode if the victim is not demonized extensively before the act. Let the debates go on.

You mean you must first demonize one billion Muslims before you kill them?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 18, 2007 12:00 AM
208
Bodepudi says,

>> Cultures and entire civilizations vanished in the Middle East-from Egypt to the areas near Mt Kiliminzaro.

Cultures and civilizations have vanished in six continents from times immemorial as a part of the march of history. Small minds will selectively exploit this fact for their hate-mongering activity.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 18, 2007 12:00 AM
207
Is this a different Raj?. In any case, the 'kicking' of Islam has proved counter-productive and more damaging to the non-Islamic World. In the short run, the U. S. A. and its current President have dug them selves into a hole and in order to extricate them selves are digging holes for others. Israel has dismissed its Army Chief and is about to change its Prime Minister.

1.3 billion people and growing can not must not and will not be kicked for long.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 18, 2007 12:00 AM
206
All this will happen while you continue to live in the safe haven around Chicago. Why do you not put your monry where your mouth is and return to India. Once you are there, you will find that Islam and Muslims will be the least of your concerns as you grapple against stench and disease, power outages, water shortages, organ selling, canabilism, HIV and Aids, sex tourism, paedophilia, bar girls, corrupt policemen, sick politicians and generally poor people.

That will call for guts and commitment. Do you have them?.

This will also hold good gor all those NRIs who praise India to the skies but see no reason to return to it.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 18, 2007 12:00 AM
205
"“there is no compulsion in religion”, says the Quran( 2:256)"

Another Sura states- "Kill the Infidels" and the fanatics certainly did follow that for over 13 centuries.Look at the human devastation wrought by Islam:

1. Cultures and entire civilizations vanished in the Middle East-from Egypt to the areas near Mt Kiliminzaro.

2. Millions of Christians slaughered, leading to feeble Crusades, after 4 long centuries of Islamic brutality,

3. Jews and gentiles, Zoroastrians and Parsees, Buddhists and Hindus, Ahmediyas and Majlis, Suffis and Sikhs-massacred in their millions,

4. Physical destruction of the greatest human accomplishment thus far, the Great Nalanda Monastery, where over 20,000 numns and Bhilkkus slaughered with the merciless Islamic Sword, overnight.

5. Destriction and desecration of thousands of Ashoka Stupas and Buddhist shrines,

6. Brutal massacre of hundreds of thousands of Hindu preists and milluions of Hindus and mass rape and rapacity,

7. The loot, extortion and plunder of Indic wealth from temples and shrines,


We DEMAND reparations amounting to Trillions of dollars from the Organization of Islamic Countries.

We demand the declaration of India as a Hindu State, IMMEDIATELY, since a majority of Hindus so desire.
Raj Bodepudi
Oak Brook, United States
Jan 18, 2007 12:00 AM
204
Bodepudi says,

>> Unless they bring their population ratio to corrsponding to that of Hindus in Pakistan, these intolerant fanatics must be reconverted and shall be denied rught to having more than one child for their indoctrination.

In his next post this hypocrite will say he loves Muslims as his brothers! And what happened to the noble Hindu dogma of 'sarva dharma samabhava'?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 18, 2007 12:00 AM
203
If Islam ever becomes modern, it'd be for people like Taslima Nasrin and Salman Rushdie who has the courage to challenge tradition. Else Islam will get its a$$ kicked the way it is getting it from the Western world. Keep it up Taslima! You have more b@lls than the retarded Mullahs and their blind followers.
Raj
Chicago, United States
Jan 18, 2007 12:00 AM
202
"Taslima should be thrown out of the country," AIMPLB member Kamal Farooqi said. "The article written by her in Outlook magazine was derogatory and outrageous"

Look at the intolerance of these Moslem fanatics! Unless they bring their population ratio to corrsponding to that of Hindus in Pakistan, these intolerant fanatics must be reconverted and shall be denied rught to having more than one child for their indoctrination. They shall have no special laws and Burquas shall be banned in India. If they do not viluntarily control their population numbers, Indics have every right to close down their Mosques and Madarasas, in self defense.
Raj Bodepudi
Oak Brook, United States
Jan 18, 2007 12:00 AM
201
Adi,

Everything has to be seen in the cultural context. Are we going to call the Greek noblemen who had sex with young boys perverts? Or girls in India being married at the age of nine and widowed at the age of 10? Are we here interested in questions of morality or are we more intersted in besmirching the prophets of those we want to hurt?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 18, 2007 12:00 AM
200
In the literary circles, there are two kinds of success stories. One, a good writing prowess translated into good literature; two, mudslinging. Tasleema Nazrin’s belongs to the latter category. Islamophobia precisely, as it is known now. It earns you instant fame as well as political Asylum in prospective lands.
If she was treated with disregard she rightly deserves, she wouldn’t have been the famous figure that she is today. For that she should thank those Islamists who are ‘ready to kill and die for Islam’ but not ready to ‘live’ according to the religion.
Now that her Asylum issue is being questioned, she finds it’s appropriate time to throw another round of abuse… to be in the limelight again. For that end she doesn’t mind quoting from an un heard of sura, Al Hijab.(?!). somebody please tell her that a writer needs to check her data before her readers find out how ignorant she is.
The chapter Al Ahzab(the confederates) verse 59 says “oh prophet, tell your wives and daughters and believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons(when abroad) that is most convenient that they should be known ( as such) and not molested. And God is oft-forgiving, most merciful”.

So…that’s what a hijab is for, not to go UNRECOGNISED, but to BE RECOGNISED as chaste.
‘Why should women have to be penalised for men’s sexual problem?’
How silly can one get? We do things for OUR own protection. The way we keep OUR homes locked so that no miscreants break in; precisely because we are NOT sex objects. How many ‘male teasing’ instances has she come across to brood about men not covering themselves?
If Quran says so, Do you have to follow? The decision is YOUR’S. that’s unique in the creation of human beings. We can CHOOSE…to be right, or…to be wrong, at our own risk. “there is no compulsion in religion”, says the Quran( 2:256)
If one can distort the Quran, there is no saying what they can’t do with hadees, traditions of the prophet(SAW). The lady has imagination. And she has used it to the hilt

The outer garment Quran talks about is not synonymous with ‘Veil’. Ms Shabana Asmi rightly said, Quran doesn’t talk about the Veil. She also doesn’t observe hijab (covering of the body) but does not think necessary to manipulate religion for her survival.
zakeena s
bangalore, India
Jan 18, 2007 12:00 AM
199
Ghulam: "but if he did, and if it was a common custom in the 7th century Arabia,"
So you agree that at least some primary customs and views of Islam are really pre-literate Arab superstitions?
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Jan 18, 2007 12:00 AM
198
Ghulam says regarding Mohamad's 9-year old wife:
"I have no way of knowing whether he did or not, but if he did, and if it was a common custom in the 7th century Arabia, it would be "rape" only in a closed petty mind like yours."
Cultural/moral relativism Ghulam? How would you evaluate the mental condition of a middle aged man who performs such an act on a 9-year old? Especially when he makes totalitarian claims such as being the "most perfect" of humans, the "last prophet" and being the model for emulation by every Muslim male? If compared to current morality his actions are found wanting, obviously the entire demented fantasy of being the "most perfect" and being the model for emulation for all times are utter rubbish. Would you agree?
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Jan 18, 2007 12:00 AM
197
Chaitanya says,

>> Just that mine is not in focus

That's why I expressed my concern.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 18, 2007 12:00 AM
196
Chaitanya says,

>> I am just giving you a sample of times to come.

Leaving your capacity to see the future aside, please just take good care of your own health.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 18, 2007 12:00 AM
195
Chaitanys says,

>> It's difficult to reason with you guys. I am not expecting change.

Have you read my posts in this section?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 18, 2007 12:00 AM
194
Chaitanya,

>> Muslims have nothing to do with India.
>> They are answerable only to Allah and their counterparts in Arabia.
>> Anything else they try to portray is not even very slimy because it's easily recognisable at some point if not always.
>> Like Shabana Azmi fighting for Animal, plant and insect rights but screams statements of ..we will back to complete burqas with full force if aliens come to reason about the justification of our Islam's treatment of women.
>> Mullah bred in one or the other way.

Do any of these statements make any sense? Please see a doctor.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 18, 2007 12:00 AM
193
“Taslima should be thrown out of India: AIMPLB “

Taslima is just testing the waters. Open call to burn Quran is going to follow. I wonder what would be the AIMPLB’s reaction then.
sreejith
bangalore, india
Jan 18, 2007 12:00 AM
192
Nandu,

>> you still haven't answered my original question. did your prophet had sex with a 9 year old child?. a simple answer is yes or no. if you say no, i'll accept it.

I have no way of knowing whether he did or not, but if he did, and if it was a common custom in the 7th century Arabia, it would be "rape" only in a closed petty mind like yours.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 18, 2007 12:00 AM
191
TANVEER SAIYED,
How is 'Meher' different from Dowry?
Meher is paid during marriage ,from where did
divorce come into the picture?
kk lol
cal, India
Jan 18, 2007 12:00 AM
190
Chaitanya says,

>> Burqa is a enforced thought coming from Arab Deserts. It should be parceled out to .....

Nasrin makes a strong plea to abolish purdah, however strident it may be. You just make an irrational rabid diatribe that make you look stupid. Are you okay?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 18, 2007 12:00 AM
189
>> Harijans are very much part of India.

So are Muslims. In fact the vast majority of them were once Dalits. Inviting 140 million Muslims to leave is the continuation of the Savarkar-Golwalkar venom we are left with.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jan 18, 2007 12:00 AM
188
Nandu says,

>> "the dowary system was originally called "kanyadhan""

Maybe an attempt to "justify", but I shall let it pass.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States