EXCLUSIVE: Pre-publication extract
Breaking The News
December 13. The season for reopening old wounds....A hyper campaign, a mysterious TV update, a book that sifts myth from fact on the Afzal issue. Updates
13 December-A Reader: The Strange Case of the Attack on the Indian Parliament
13 December-A Reader: The Strange Case of the Attack on the Indian Parliament
By Arundhati Roy (Intro)
Penguin
Rs 200; Pages: 256

This Reader* goes to press almost five years to the day since December 13, 2001, when five men (some say six) drove through the gates of the Indian Parliament in a white Ambassador car and attempted what looked like an astonishingly incompetent terrorist strike. Consummate competence appeared to be the hallmark of everything that followed: the gathering of evidence, the speed of the investigation by the Special Cell of the Delhi Police, the arrest and chargesheeting of the accused, and the 40-month-long judicial process that began with the fast-track trial court.

The operative phrase in all of this is 'appeared to be'.

 
 
The public pressure has created fissures...those under the scanner—shadowy individuals, security agencies—have begun to surface. They wave flags, issue hot denials....
 
 
If you follow the story carefully, you'll encounter two sets of masks. First the mask of consummate competence (accused arrested, 'case cracked' in two days flat), and then, when things began to come undone, the benign mask of shambling incompetence (shoddy evidence, procedural flaws, material contradictions). But underneath all of this, as each of the essays in this collection shows, is something more sinister, more worrying. Over the last few years the worries have grown into a mountain of misgivings, impossible to ignore.

The doubts set in early on, when on December 14, 2001, the day after the Parliament attack, the police arrested S.A.R. Geelani, a young lecturer in Delhi University. He was one of four people who were arrested. His outraged colleagues and friends, certain he had been framed, contacted the well-known lawyer Nandita Haksar and asked her to take on his case. This marked the beginning of a campaign for the fair trial of Geelani. It flew in the face of mass hysteria and corrosive propaganda enthusiastically disseminated by the mass media. The campaign was successful, and Geelani was eventually acquitted, along with Afsan Guru, co-accused in the same case.

Geelani's acquittal blew a gaping hole in the prosecution's version of the Parliament attack.
 
 
P.R. Das Munshi says he "counted six men getting out...the CCTV clearly showed six. Only five were killed. " Why did the police say there were only five? Who was the sixth?
 
 
But in some odd way, in the public mind, the acquittal of two of the accused only confirmed the guilt of the other two. When the Supreme Court announced that Mohammed Afzal Guru, Accused Number One in the case, would be hanged on October 20, 2006, it seemed as though most people welcomed the news not just with approval, but morbid excitement. But then, once again, the questions resurfaced.

To see through the prosecution's case against Geelani was relatively easy. He was plucked out of thin air and transplanted into the centre of the 'conspiracy' as its kingpin. Afzal was different. He had been extruded through the sewage system of the hell that Kashmir has become. He surfaced through a manhole, covered in shit (and when he emerged, policemen in the Special Cell pissed on him). The first thing they made him do was a 'media confession' in which he implicated himself completely in the attack. The speed with which this happened made many of us believe that he was indeed guilty as charged. It was only much later that the circumstances under which this 'confession' was made were revealed, and even the Supreme Court was to set it aside saying that the police had violated legal safeguards.

From the very beginning there was nothing pristine or simple about Afzal's case. Even today Afzal does not claim complete innocence. It is the nature of his involvement that is being contested. For instance, was he coerced, tortured and blackmailed into playing even the peripheral part he played? He didn't have a lawyer to put out his version of the story, or help anyone to sift through the tangle of lies and fabrications.
 
 
In the business of spreading confusion, the mass media can be counted on to be perfect collaborators. TV anchors play around with crucial facts like young children in a sandpit.
 
 
Various individuals worked it out for themselves. These essays by a group of lawyers, academics, journalists and writers represent that body of work. It has fractured what—only recently—appeared to be a national consensus interwoven with mass hysteria. We're late at the barricades, but we're here.

Most people, or let's say many people, when they encounter real facts and a logical argument, do begin to ask the right questions. This is exactly what has begun to happen on the Parliament attack case. The questions have created public pressure. The pressure has created fissures, and through these fissures those who have come under the scanner—shadowy individuals, counter-intelligence and security agencies, political parties—are beginning to surface. They wave flags, hurl abuse, issue hot denials and cover their tracks with more and more untruths. Thus they reveal themselves.

Public unease continues to grow. A group of citizens have come together as a committee (chaired by Nirmala Deshpande) to publicly demand a parliamentary inquiry into the episode. There is an online petition demanding the same thing. Thousands of people have signed on. Every day new articles appear in the papers, on the net. At least half-a-dozen websites are following the developments closely.
 
 
The BJP tried to turn 'Hang Afzal' into a national campaign, fuelled by the usual stale cocktail of religious chauvinism, nationalism, strategic falsehoods. But it hasn't taken off.
 
 
They raise questions about how Mohammed Afzal, who never had proper legal representation, can be sentenced to death, without having had an opportunity to be heard, without a fair trial. They raise questions about fabricated evidence, procedural flaws and the outright lies that were presented in court and published in newspapers. They show how there is hardly a single piece of evidence that stands up to scrutiny.

And then, there are even more disturbing questions that have been raised, which range beyond the fate of Mohammed Afzal. Here are 13 questions for December 13:

Question 1: For months before the attack on Parliament, both the government and the police had been saying that Parliament could be attacked. On December 12, 2001, at an informal meeting, prime minister Atal Behari Vajpayee warned of an imminent attack on Parliament. On December 13, Parliament was attacked. Given that there was an 'improved security drill', how did a car bomb packed with explosives enter the Parliament complex?

Question 2: Within days of the attack, the Special Cell of Delhi Police said it was a meticulously planned joint operation of Jaish-e-Mohammed and Lashkar-e-Toiba. They said the attack was led by a man called 'Mohammad' who was also involved in the hijacking of IC-814 in 1999. (This was later refuted by the CBI.) None of this was ever proved in court. What evidence did the Special Cell have for its claim?

Question 3: The entire attack was recorded live on close circuit TV (CCTV).
 
 
Surely it's in the national interest not to hang Afzal? At least not until there is an inquiry that reveals what the real story is, and who actually attacked Parliament?
 
 
Congress party MP Kapil Sibal demanded in Parliament that the CCTV recording be shown to the members. He was supported by the deputy chairperson of the Rajya Sabha, Najma Heptullah, who said that there was confusion about the details of the event. The chief whip of the Congress party, Priyaranjan Das Munshi, said, "I counted six men getting out of the car. But only five were killed. The close circuit TV camera recording clearly showed the six men." If Das Munshi was right, why did the police say that there were only five people in the car? Who was the sixth person? Where is he now? Why was the CCTV recording not produced by the prosecution as evidence in the trial? Why was it not released for public viewing?

Question 4: Why was Parliament adjourned after some of these questions were raised?

Question 5: A few days after December 13, the government declared that it had 'incontrovertible evidence' of Pakistan's involvement in the attack, and announced a massive mobilisation of almost half-a-million soldiers to the Indo-Pakistan border. The subcontinent was pushed to the brink of nuclear war. Apart from Afzal's 'confession', extracted under torture (and later set aside by the Supreme Court), what was the 'incontrovertible evidence'?

Question 6: Is it true that the military mobilisation to the Pakistan border had begun long before the December 13 attack?

Question 7: How much did this military standoff, which lasted for nearly a year, cost? How many soldiers died in the process? How many soldiers and civilians died because of mishandled landmines, and how many peasants lost their homes and land because trucks and tanks were rolling through their villages, and landmines were being planted in their fields?

Question 8: In a criminal investigation, it is vital for the police to show how the evidence gathered at the scene of the attack led them to the accused. How did the police reach Mohammed Afzal? The Special Cell says S.A.R. Geelani led them to Afzal. But the message to look out for Afzal was actually flashed to the Srinagar police before Geelani was arrested. So how did the Special Cell connect Afzal to the December 13 attack?

Question 9: The courts acknowledge that Afzal was a surrendered militant who was in regular contact with the security forces, particularly the Special Task Force (STF) of the Jammu & Kashmir Police. How do the security forces explain the fact that a person under their surveillance was able to conspire in a major militant operation?

Question 10: Is it plausible that organisations like Lashkar-e-Toiba or Jaish-e-Mohammed would rely on a person who had been in and out of STF torture chambers, and was under constant police surveillance, as the principal link for a major operation?

Question 11: In his statement before the court, Afzal says that he was introduced to 'Mohammad' and instructed to take him to Delhi by a man called Tariq, who was working with the STF. Tariq was named in the police chargesheet. Who is Tariq and where is he now?

Question 12: On December 19, 2001, six days after the Parliament attack, Police Commissioner, Thane (Maharashtra), S.M. Shangari, identified one of the attackers killed in the Parliament attack as Mohammed Yasin Fateh Mohammed (alias Abu Hamza) of the Lashkar-e-Toiba, who had been arrested in Mumbai in November 2000, and immediately handed over to the J&K Police. He gave detailed descriptions to support his statement. If Police Commissioner Shangari was right, how did Mohammed Yasin, a man in the custody of the J&K Police, end up participating in the Parliament attack? If he was wrong, where is Mohammed Yasin now?

Question 13: Why is it that we still don't know who the five dead 'terrorists' killed in the Parliament attack are?

These questions, examined cumulatively, point to something far more serious than incompetence. The words that come to mind are Complicity, Collusion, Involvement. There's no need for us to feign shock, or shrink from thinking these thoughts and saying them out loud. Governments and their intelligence agencies have a hoary tradition of using strategies like this to further their own ends. (Look up the burning of the Reichstag and the rise of Nazi power in Germany, 1933; or 'Operation Gladio' in which European intelligence agencies 'created' acts of terrorism, especially in Italy, in order to discredit militant groups like the Red Brigade.)

The official response to all of these questions has been dead silence. As things stand, the execution of Afzal has been postponed while the President considers his clemency petition. Meanwhile, the Bharatiya Janata Party announced that it would turn 'Hang Afzal' into a national campaign. The campaign was fuelled by the usual stale cocktail of religious chauvinism, nationalism and strategic falsehoods. But it doesn't seem to have taken off. Now other avenues are being explored. M.S. Bitta of the All India Anti-Terrorist Front is parading around the families of some of the security personnel who were killed during the attack. They have threatened to return the government's posthumous bravery medals if Afzal is not hanged by December 13. (On balance, it might not be a bad idea for them to turn those medals in until they really know who the attackers were working for.)

The main strategy seems to be to create confusion and polarise the debate on communal lines. The editor of The Pioneer newspaper writes in his columns that Mohammed Afzal was actually one of the men who attacked Parliament, that he was the first to open fire and kill at least three security guards. The columnist Swapan Dasgupta, in an article called 'You Can't Be Good to Evil', suggests that if Afzal is not hanged there would be no point in celebrating Dussehra or Durga Puja. It's hard to believe that falsehoods like this stem only from a poor grasp of facts.

In the business of spreading confusion, the mass media, particularly television journalists, can be counted on to be perfect collaborators. On discussions, chat shows and 'special reports', we have television anchors playing around with crucial facts, like young children in a sandpit. Torturers, estranged brothers, senior police officers and politicians are emerging from the woodwork and talking. The more they talk, the more interesting it all becomes.

At the end of November 2006, Afzal's older brother Aijaz made it on to a national news channel (CNN-IBN). He was featured on hidden camera, on what was meant to be a 'sting' operation, making—we were asked to believe—stunning revelations. Aijaz's story had already been on offer to various journalists on the streets of Delhi for weeks. People were wary of him because his rift with his brother's wife and family is well known. More significantly, in Kashmir he is known to have a relationship with the STF. More than one person has suggested an audit of his newfound assets.

But here he was now, on the national news, endorsing the Supreme Court decision to hang his brother. Then, saying Afzal had never surrendered, and that it was he (Aijaz) who surrendered his brother's weapon to the BSF! And since he had never surrendered, Aijaz was able to 'confirm' that Afzal was an active militant with the Jaish-e-Mohammed, and that Ghazi Baba, chief of operations of the Jaish, used to regularly hold meetings in their home. (Aijaz claims that when Ghazi Baba was killed, it was he who the police called in to identify the body). On the whole, it sounded as though there had been a case of mistaken identity—and that given how much he knew, and all he was admitting, Aijaz should have been the one in custody instead of Afzal!

Of course we must keep in mind that behind both Aijaz and Afzal's 'media confessions', spaced five years apart, is the invisible hand of the STF, the dreaded counter-insurgency outfit in Kashmir. They can make anyone say anything at any time. Their methods (both punitive and remunerative) are familiar to every man, woman and child in the Kashmir Valley. At a time like this, for a responsible news channel to announce that their "investigation finds that Afzal was a Jaish militant", based on totally unreliable testimony, is dangerous and irresponsible. (Since when did what our brothers say about us become admissible evidence? My brother, for instance, will testify that I'm God's Gift to the Universe. I could dredge up a couple of aunts who'd say I'm a Jaish militant. For a price.) How can family feuds be dressed up as Breaking News?

The other character who is rapidly emerging from the shadowy periphery and wading on to centrestage is Dy Superintendent of Police Dravinder Singh of the STF. He is the man who Afzal has named as the police officer who held him in illegal detention and tortured him in the STF camp at Humhama in Srinagar, only a few months before the Parliament attack. In a letter to his lawyer, Sushil Kumar, Afzal says that several of the calls made to him and Mohammed Yasin (the man killed in the attack) can be traced to Dravinder. Of course, no attempt was made to trace these calls.

Dravinder Singh was also showcased on the CNN-IBN show, on the by-now ubiquitous low-angle shots, camera shake and all. It seemed a bit unnecessary, because Dravinder Singh has been talking a lot these days. He has done recorded interviews, on the phone as well as face-to-face, saying exactly the same shocking things. Weeks before the sting operation, in a recorded interview to Parvaiz Bukhari, a freelance journalist, he said "I did interrogate and torture him (Afzal) at my camp for several days. And we never recorded his arrest in the books anywhere. His description of torture at my camp is true. That was the procedure those days and we did pour petrol in his ass and gave him electric shocks. But I could not break him. He did not reveal anything to me despite our hardest possible interrogation. We tortured him enough for Ghazi Baba but he did not break. He looked like a 'bhondu' those days, what you call a 'chootiya' type. And I had a reputation for torture, interrogation and breaking suspects. If anybody came out of my interrogation clean, nobody would ever touch him again. He would be considered clean for good by the whole department."

This is not an empty boast. Dravinder Singh has a formidable reputation for torture in the Kashmir Valley. On TV his boasting spiralled into policymaking. "Torture is the only deterrent for terrorism," he said, "I do it for the nation." He didn't bother to explain why or how the 'bhondu' that he tortured and subsequently released allegedly went on to become the diabolical mastermind of the Parliament attack. Dravinder Singh then said that Afzal was a Jaish militant. If this is true, why wasn't the evidence placed before the courts? And why on earth was Afzal released? Why wasn't he watched? There is a definite attempt to try and dismiss this as incompetence. But given everything we know now, it would take all of Dravinder Singh's delicate professional skills to make some of us believe that.

Meanwhile right-wing commentators have consistently taken to referring to Afzal as a Jaish-e-Mohammed militant. It's as though instructions have been issued that this is to be the Party Line. They have absolutely no evidence to back their claim, but they know that repeating something often enough makes it the 'truth'. As part of the campaign to portray Afzal as an 'active' militant, and not a surrendered militant, S.M. Sahai, Inspector General, Kashmir, J&K Police, appeared on TV to say that he had found no evidence in his records that Afzal had surrendered. It would have been odd if he had, because in 1993 Afzal surrendered not to the J&K Police, but to the BSF. But why would a TV journalist bother with that kind of detail? And why does a senior police officer need to become part of this game of smoke and mirrors?

The official version of the story of the Parliament attack is very quickly coming apart at the seams.

Even the Supreme Court judgement, with all its flaws of logic and leaps of faith, does not accuse Mohammed Afzal of being the mastermind of the attack. So who was the mastermind? If Mohammed Afzal is hanged, we may never know. But L.K. Advani, Leader of the Opposition, wants him hanged at once. Even a day's delay, he says, is against the national interest. Why? What's the hurry? The man is locked up in a high-security cell on death row.
Pages: 1   2
 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Dec 23, 2006 12:00 AM
304
The only reason I can attribute Ms Roy wanting to guard Afzal is that she is lopsided, irrational and shows a lot of favouritism to minorities. If she is a person of real concern, she should do similar studies and analysis for half a dozen death sentences given since. And Outlook only publishing such iresponsible stories clearly indicates a propagandist and selfish image building exercise from A Roy.
Gops
Chennai, India
Dec 18, 2006 12:00 AM
303
I agree with Ghulam Faruki that Arundhati can be relied on to give Hindus what they deserve.
Parbat Laldeng
Denver, United States
Dec 18, 2006 12:00 AM
302
Parthasarathy, did it occur to you that the police may have taken pre-emptive action, rather than wait for the terrorists to fire first? Would you have preferred to see Indian policemen wounded, maimed or killed by the would-be killers, as "proof", that it was a genuine exchange of fire, not an "encounter"? That's perverse!!
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 18, 2006 12:00 AM
301
Mr. Kiran Bagachi, this trait of hiding behind a false name or false location is a typical Indian Hindu trait. If you recall all the names and addresses since you have been with this Forum, if you will find such names as Chester Pester, Hindustan For Hindus and what have as against which you will find others going by Ghulam, Joseph, Azeem Taqi, etc.

There is an immense sense of insecurity among those who hide behind false names and locations and a need to keep their friends and family unaware of their views and inclinations. I suffer no such need.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Dec 18, 2006 12:00 AM
300
Chaitanya wrote on 16th dec…"P stands for Patriot stands for PARTHASARATHY." He reminds me of Chacha Nehru. Their kind should be wiped out for eternity if India is to survive.


Jo jo chacha replies…”I am too insignificant a person, Mr. Chaithanya, to be compared with Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru in my alleged orientation.”

This proves what I doubted long ago…that Parthasarathy IS our our own Joseph chacha from Karachinwith a psudo name…

ha ha ha!! Bahut khoob khujli chacha
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Dec 18, 2006 12:00 AM
299
Regarding the goddaam killed terrorists and attackers of the Parliament: They were photographed, presumably dnad and now lie in graves buried by the Wakf Board.
One of them has clearly been identifie by photos etc as the same chap who was part of the IC 184 Hijack.
Pakistan was asked to take the bodies back. They did not respond. The trail is probably somewhat cold But these chaps have not been reported missing anywhere in India. Presumably they were not Indians.
Reports from 2002 post the attack indicate some of these chaps were staying with Afzal. He took them shopping.
An interesting report in Frontline from Dec 2001 says the following....
"Indian officials, understandably, see Pakistan's demand for more evidence as a stalling tactic. Records of phone calls made to Dubai and Karachi by the five terrorists who attacked Parliament House are available, which, along with the confessional statement of the key accused Mohammad Afzal Ansari constitute credible prima facie evidence of the involvement of Pakistan- based groups in the operation. "It ought to be obvious to anyone," points out one intelligence official, "that you can't prove a case unless you can question suspects."
Pakistan's record inspires little confidence, either. It first denied having anything to do with the hijackers of IC-814 and then protected the after they appeared in public on Pakistani soil. It denied any official role in the Kargil War, and then gave medals to soldiers killed in battle. The presence in Karachi of Dawood Ibrahim, an accused in the serial bomb blasts in Mumbai, was long denied, until independent media investigation in that country blew the lid off these lies. Calls for evidence appear all the more farcical since groups based in Pakistan have publicly claimed responsibility for dozens of acts of terrorism against the Indian state.
War-mongering in India will make it more or less impossible for Musharraf to act, prisoner as he is of the religious Right. But should he fail to do so, the ongoing war in Jammu and Kashmir, which has claimed tens of thousands of lives, will sooner or later explode into something unimaginably more ugly".
Seriously not everybody is dumb! What this absurd charade over Afzal has shown is that some intelligent Inidans are so twisted with hate for the state and so full of self-loathing as a priveleged member of the Haves, they seem unable to be rational and yes maybe even patriotic.Outlook

Bindu Tandon
Mumbai, India
Dec 17, 2006 12:00 AM
298
Chanakya asks, "The point being...??" (regrding Bhatia saying that VHP funded his battle against Banerjee commission)

The information may be of interest to at least some readers of this forum.


Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 17, 2006 12:00 AM
297
Regarding the goddaam killed terrorists and attackers of the Parliament: They were photographed, presumably dnad and now lie in graves buried by the Wakf Board.
One of them has clearly been identifie by photos etc as the same chap who was part of the IC 184 Hijack.
Pakistan was asked to take the bodies back. They did not respond. The trail is probably somewhat cold.
But these chaps have not been reported missing anywhere in India. Presumably they were not Indians.
Reports from 2002 post the attack indicate some of these chaps were staying with Afzal. He took ththem shopping.
An interesting report in Frontline from Dec 2001 says the following....
"Indian officials, understandably, see Pakistan's demand for more evidence as a stalling tactic. Records of phone calls made to Dubai and Karachi by the five terrorists who attacked Parliament House are available, which, along with the confessional statement of the key accused Mohammad Afzal Ansari constitute credible prima facie evidence of the involvement of Pakistan- based groups in the operation. "It ought to be obvious to anyone points out one intelligence official, "that you can't prove a case unless you can question suspects."
Pakistan's record inspires little confidence, either. It first denied having anything to do with the hijackers of IC-814 and then protected them after they appeared in public on Pakistani soil. It denied any official role in the Kargil War, and then gave medals to soldiers killed in battle. The presence in Karachi of Dawood Ibrahim, an accused in the serial bomb blasts in Mumbai, was long denied, until independent media investigation in that country blew the lid off these lies. Calls for evidence appeaall the more farcical since groups based in Pakistan have publicly claimed responsibility for dozens of acts of terrorism against the Indian state.
War-mongering in India will make it more or less impossible for Musharraf to act, prisoner as he is of the religious Right. But should he fail to do so, the ongoing war in Jammu and Kashmir, which has claimed tens of thousands of lives, will sooner or later explode into something unimaginably more ugly".

Bindu Tandon
Mumbai, India
Dec 17, 2006 12:00 AM
296
Bidu-Not Indians but a few ISI plants based in Pak are keeping this AFAJAL campaign on.Idea is to spread hatered among Hinuds and Muslims.OFF COURSE LADY ARUNADITI MOTHER OF ALL LIES IS THE LADY PRINCIPAL !
Is it not funny we are asked to give the names of Pakistanis killed in Parliament attack ? That too by ISI plants.
A K GHAI
MUMBAI, India
Dec 17, 2006 12:00 AM
295
Regarding the goddaam killed terrorists and attackers of the Parliament: They were photographed, presumably dnad and now lie in graves buried by the Wakf Board.
One of them has clearly been identifie by photos etc as the same chap who was part of the IC 184 Hijack.
Pakistan was asked to take the bodies back. They did not respond. The trail is probably somewhat cold.
But these chaps have not been reported missing anywhere in India. Presumably they were not Indians.
Reports from 2002 post the attack indicate some of these chaps were staying with Afzal. He took them shopping.
An interesting report in Frontline from Dec 2001 says the following....
"Indian officials, understandably, see Pakistan's demand for more evidence as a stalling tactic. Records of phone calls made to Dubai and Karachi by the five terrorists who attacked Parliament House are available, which, along with the confessional statement of the key accused Mohammad Afzal Ansari constitute credible prima facie evidence of the involvement of Pakistan- based groups in the operation. "It ought to be obvious to anyone," points out one intelligence official, "that you can't prove a case unless you can question suspects."
Pakistan's record inspires little confidence, either. It first denied having anything to do with the hijackers of IC-814 and then protected them after they appeared in public on Pakistani soil. It denied any official role in the Kargil War, and then gave medals to soldiers killed in battle. The presence in Karachi of Dawood Ibrahim, an accused in the serial bomb blasts in Mumbai, was long denied, until independent media investigation in that country blew the lid off these lies. Calls for evidence appear all the more farcical since groups based in Pakistan have publicly claimed responsibility for dozens of acts of terrorism against the Indian state.
War-mongering in India will make it more or less impossible for Musharraf to act, prisoner as he is of the religious Right. But should he fail to do so, the ongoing war in Jammu and Kashmir, which has claimed tens of thousands of lives, will sooner or later explode into something unimaginably more ugly".
Seriously not everybody is dumb! What this absurd charade over Afzal has shown is that some intelligent Inidans are so twisted with hate for the state and so full of self-loathing as a priveleged member of the Haves, they seem unable to be rational and yes maybe even patriotic.
They
Bindu Tandon
Mumbai, India
Dec 17, 2006 12:00 AM
294
"VHP funded my battle against Banerjee Commission:.."

What a stupid logic..As if BJP / VHP / RSS or their supporters can't approach Indian Courts..Or is it a privilege reserved only for "first claim holders" as well ?

A court sees merits in the case filed, irrespective who filed the case or who funded it.
shankar
Mumbai, India
Dec 17, 2006 12:00 AM
293
Ghulam writes:"VHP funded my battle against Banerjee Commission: Bhatia Man who challenged constitution of panel tracked by Newsline after month’s chase Vikram Rautela"

The point being...??
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Dec 17, 2006 12:00 AM
292
VHP funded my battle against Banerjee Commission: Bhatia
Man who challenged constitution of panel tracked by Newsline after month’s chase
Vikram Rautela

Ahmedabad, December 16: The man on whose petition Gujarat High Court termed Justice U C Banerjee Commission as illegal, is not sure on which grounds he had challgened the constitution of the commission. Nor does he remember when he had moved the High Court. But one thing that Neelkanth Bhatia is candid about is the VHP supported him — and bore all expenses— in the legal battle.

Bhatia, a survivor of the S-6 burning incident, had been evading mediapersons ever since his petition had been moved in the HC in September 2005. The Express Newsline, which had been trying to speak to Bhatia for the last one month, finally managed to track him down on Friday night.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 17, 2006 12:00 AM
291
A plant can't be a news item in the PRINTED MOUTHPIECE OF LET , PUBLISHED & PRINTED IN LAHORE.

IF it indeed is a plant, conclusively proves that the LET warriors donot know their mouth from their musharraf.

Assuming the holy warriors were suckerpunched on that day , where is the retraction next day saying they have nothing to do with Ishrat?

Really amusing to see the "secularists" squirm , when confronted with unpalatable facts. How convenient !! Any news which smashes their stupid theories to smitherns becomes a "PLANT".. and any news which sullies the BJP / RSS / Chaddis / Modi is never a "plant"

Looks like only the believers have the first claim holders on the "Plant " theory as well. Kaffirs are not eligible.

How naive or blase can one get?.
shankar
Mumbai, India
Dec 17, 2006 12:00 AM
290
>> As for the fundamentalists, every group-Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Sikh-benefits politically when their community feels besieged. That’s when their vote banks consolidate.
In other words, when the police indiscriminately round up entire Muslim neighbourhoods or pick up innocent people, they are actually strengthening the cause of the jehadis and endangering our lives even more. This is exactly what terrorist organisations pray for. It lands countless angry, bewildered, disappointed young men and women into their waiting arms. Their ranks grow. Their cause finds many new supporters. The groundswell of bitterness creates communal flashpoints where none existed. Terrorism finds new targets, new foot soldiers.
Muslim extremist groups are waiting for the opportunity to grab new recruits and every time we get rough with Muslims here, they gain new converts.
As for the fundamentalists, every group-Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Sikh-benefits politically when their community feels besieged. That’s when their vote banks consolidate.
In other words, when the police indiscriminately round up entire Muslim neighbourhoods or pick up innocent people, they are actually strengthening the cause of the jehadis and endangering our lives even more. This is exactly what terrorist organisations pray for. It lands countless angry, bewildered, disappointed young men and women into their waiting arms. Their ranks grow. Their cause finds many new supporters. The groundswell of bitterness creates communal flashpoints where none existed. Terrorism finds new targets, new foot soldiers.
But what is even more dangerous is that not only do the jehadis gain, so do all other political formations that feed off fundamentalism. The BJP and the Samajwadi Party are actually Gemini cousins. They need each other to consolidate their vote banks. Radical Islam counterpoints Hindu fundamentalism. Both gain.
When Mulayam Singh roots for SIMI, the BJP vote bank strengthens. The more flamboyant, the more aggressive Narendra Modi becomes, the more the mullahs are able to motivate their flock. It’s this yin-yang relationship between extremists of both kinds that drives a society, a nation to the brink.
Yes, it’s time for anger. True. That’s what I keep saying . But it’s equally important that we do not allow this anger to blunt our intelligence or cloud our judgment. Neither should we allow politicians to endanger our lives any further by allowing showmanship to replace hard-nosed law enforcement. We need to beat back terrorism, not allow our leaders to use this opportunity to score brownie points off each other . Tilting at windmills wins no wars.
What could win the war for us is a concerted, all out effort to fight terrorism which hurts all of us in the end. Including innocent Muslims who get blown up in bomb blasts, just like anyone else. All, alas, in the name of Allah. (Pritish Nandy, TOI)



http://tinyurl.com/ylb9qx

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
289
Mr.Ghai,

>> PLEASE THINK FOR ECONOMICAL PROGRESS WHETHER YOU NEED INDIA AS A FRIEND OR AN ENEMY ?
>> FARUKI JI -IF YOU ARE THERE I REQUEST YOUR VIEWS TOO.

I am all for peace and economic cooperation in the subcontinent.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
288
Regarding Kashmir Chacha -General has ruled out independence of Kashmir.PAK SAYS IT DOES NOT COVET KASHMIR. SO ? ?
WISE OLD PARSI CAWASJEE HAD STATED SOME TIME BACK THAT 'LOC IS THE FINAL BORDER WITH MINOR NATURAL GEOGRAPHICAL ADUJUSTMENTS HERE AND THERE ! '
Time for change in boundaries is over.EVEN USA WILL NOT BREAK IRAQ INTO FOUR STATES. WAIT AND SEE.
A K GHAI
MUMBAI, India
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
287
Chacha Joe -true P satnds for many things !Regarding RAW DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE IT CAN DO MUCH ON PAK'S Western borders when actually Durrand line has disappeared and Patahans,Tribals and other foreitier tribes are de-facto rulers of Western Parts of Pak .CHACHA DON'T THINK I AM TRYING TO PULL FAST ONE.
SIR,the total loss of Pak control is cause of major worry for South Asia ,NATO,- . READ WHAT THE DEFENCE EXPERTS WORLD OVER SAY ABOUT IT. CHACHA PLEASE WAKE UP FROM DEEP STUPOR.
Chacha regarding SEVEN SISTERS Pak has been making constant efforts to cause rebellions and WHAT IS THE END RESULT -EAST PAK GONE !
Please listen what Karzai is saying.Please listen what your NATO FRIENDS AND WELL WISHERS WORLD OVER SAY . PLEASE UNDERSTAND INDIA WILL BE FOOLISH TO BREAK UP FURTHER PAK.
THE WORRY IS HAS PAK LEARNT FROM MISTAKES OF 1971 ?? CHACHA YOU ARE STILL STUCK UP IN 1947.BEFORE SHOOTING BACK A MESSAGE -CHACHA PLEASE THINK FOR ECONOMICAL PROGRESS WHETHER YOU NEED INDIA AS A FRIEND OR AN ENEMY ?
I LEAVE IT TO YOUR WISDOM-WHICH YOU HAVE PLENTY -I CONCEED.
FARUKI JI -IF YOU ARE THERE I REQUEST YOUR VIEWS TOO.
A K GHAI
MUMBAI, India
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
286
Apparently, Ms. Sonia Gandhi's commitment to the ideals of freedom from oppression and the right to self-determination and democratic self-rule does not extend to Jammu and Kashmir, the 'Seven Sisters, etc.

Then hypocrisies will abound in a party that has ruled through hypocrisy-the hypocrisy of secularism and the like.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
285
You will be one from not too many, Mr. Chaithanya, in your opinion about Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru. The bulk of Indians see the 'House of Nehry' to be the eternal 'rulers' of India. The 'Gandhi' surname that, ironically, came through a Parsi Gandhi has added to the impact in a basically unknowing electorate.

Rahul took precedence over Priyanka because the Vadra surname would have created confusion and there would be just another woman on the flanks.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
284
In the age of the EMail, Mr. Shankar, you can plant from anywhere, even from an inconspicuous office in the South Block or even over Dinner and Drinks for compliant journalists.

How naive or blase can one get?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
283
In the age of the EMail, Mr. Shankar, you can plant from anywhere, even from an inconspicuous office in the South Block or even over Dinner and Drinks for compliant journalists.

How naive or blase can one get?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
282
P stands for many other things, Mr. A. K. Ghai.
I had expected that Mr. Parthasarathy would be much malgned for the courage of his convictions and would be tarnished with that ISI allegation.

Somehow, Indians seem to forget their own RAW in all these deliberations and their surfeit of Consular Offices along the Afghanistan/Pakistan Border.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
281
What is this 'Indic Heritage', Mr. Raj, that you keep mentioning about in every second post or posting of your's?.

As for me, I believe I am Indic although a Christian, Ghulam is Indic although Muslim, Chaithanya is Indic although a Hindu and you are Indic although a Buddhist. Jains are also Indic.

The only non-Indics in a sense would be Anglo-Indians, Parsi and descendants of Muslim Invaders presently living in South Asia.

I shall be grateful to hear your explanation.

Thank you.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
280
I am too insignificant a person, Mr. Chaithanya, to be compared with Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru in my alleged orientation..

The disillusionment with Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru is quite understandable given that capitalistic greed and utter scorn the poor and the dispossesed has taken over India in the last decade.

Materialism, hedonism, keeping up with your neighboours and rampant boastfulness has enveloped 275 million Indians who consume more than 50 percent of India's GDP.

Without Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru. India would not be.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
279
Parthasarathy,

You seem to be having a problem in reading & comprehension.

Cutting and pasting your earlier reply, which has been countered , again & again multiple times , reinforces that you have nothing worthwhile to say and are conceding.
shankar
Mumbai, India
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
278
article is great
kamaraj
chennai, India
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
277
Parthasarathy, Please stick to facts. Sermons can wait.
1. You said in your first post Ishrat was an innocent college girl , murdered by Police.
2.I gave you official links and news reports from LET mouthpiece, published in Lahore, which confirmed that Ishrat was a LET operative.
3.I also proved that this cant be a plant, as you suspected, and if it was there was no retraction by LET anytime later.
4. When You were caught lying, you say LET has links with Indian Intelligence. This whole episode was a resounding slap on the "secular" media . They are still wincing from the pain.Concede the point gracefully , if you can.

No amount of slant or squirming can take you out of the hole you dug yourself in this time.

You do not have to accept my view, just disprove the facts I have given you.( P>S> good to know even 'Seculars" live in glass houses )
shankar
Mumbai, India
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
276
Read Paratha not parantha--
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
275
P STANDS FOR PEREIRA JOSEPH !
Chaitnya Patrha is a ISI plant based in Pak.He will soon diappear and reappear under some new ID. So let us not bother .There are other plants too visiting the forum.ISI SPENDS HELL OF MONEY TO FED unsuspecting Muslims False Hate information to create HINU MUSLIM RIOTS.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
274
"It is common to give sweet sounding answers to poll takers."

The problem is not with Poll Takers but with those who answered them. It conclusively disproves what you said earlier in your post about Islam and Nationalism being compatible.. And pew is not a Mullah link..
shankar
Mumbai, India
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
273
typos in my earlier post..

1,Plant for pant

2.This for htis
shankar
Mumbai, India
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
272
Parthasarathy , read once again, slowly this time."In a news report published in Lahore-based Ghazwa Times , mouthpiece of the LeT, Lashkar said "the veil of Ishrat Jehan, a woman activist of LeT, was removed by Indian police and her body was kept with other mujahideens (terrorists) on the ground."

This news report is Published in Ghazwa Times , which is the mouth piece of LET , and is published and printed in LAHORE.

1.How can Indian army go to LETs HO in Lahore ( Not KAshmir ) to pant htis story?

2.If LET is such a bunch of morons in Lahore, to allow Indians to enter their press and plant stories, why was there no retraction in the next issue? Is Indian army planting stories in their paper everyday?

Facts will not change, irrespective of where you look.
shankar
Mumbai, India
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
271
>> Most muslims in these countries surveyed do believe Islam and nationaloism oppose each other.

Is that why Iranis had a war with Iraq, Pakistanis and Afghanis have so much tension between them, Darfur Arabs kill Darfur black Muslims, and Saudis are threatening to intervene in Iraq to side with the Sunnis?

It is common to give sweet sounding answers to poll takers.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
270
"It is relatively simple to 'plant' a claim from the terrorists organisations.."

How stupid can you be ? It was not only on LETs website but also published in their mouthpiece , printed in Pakistan. Are you saying Indian army will go inside pakistan, enter LETs office and print this story in their mouthpiece? and LET will keep quiet after that? why have they not retracted this story if it is a plant?

Grow up man..accept that you have been cornered for good now.and stop recirculating old lies.
shankar
Mumbai, India
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
269
Parthasarthy,

The murder of Haren Pandya, a political foe of Narendra Modi, remains a mystery. Holes have been blown in the prosecution case by forensic experts. It seems there is a high level conspiracy to conceal the real culprits. Thanks for your posts.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
268
" Most Muslims don't."

Here is the link to latest Pew Global attitudes survey on the subject..

http://pewglobal.org/re.../display.php?PageID=813


"The importance of Islam in the political life of many countries where it is the predominant religion is underscored by the large percentages in these countries saying that they think of themselves first as a Muslim, rather than as a citizen of their particular country.Large majorities in Pakistan (79%), Morocco (70%) and Jordan (63%) say they self-identify first as Muslims, rather than as Pakistanis, Moroccans or Jordanians."

Substantial majorities in all but one of the predominantly Muslim countries surveyed – including as many as 85% in Indonesia and 75% in Morocco – say that Islam plays a very large or fairly large role in the political life of their countries.

Most muslims in these countries surveyed do believe Islam and nationaloism oppose each other. Why should it be different for Indian muslims?
shankar
Mumbai, India
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
267
"Till date the Gujarat, and Maharashtra, police have failed to produce any evidence that the nineteen year old girl, Ishrat Jahan Shaikh - a resident of Mumbra, some 35 km north of Mumbai, and second year BSc student in a city college, had any criminal antecedents.."

How can we KAffirs deny what your Baap LET has accepted in theri website and newspaper?

" Lashkar owns up Ishrat "
Giving credence to police version, Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba has said that Ishrat Jehan, who was killed along with three others in Ahmedabad, was the outfit's activist.

In a news report published in Lahore-based Ghazwa Times , mouthpiece of the LeT, Lashkar said "the veil of Ishrat Jehan, a woman activist of LeT, was removed by Indian police and her body was kept with other mujahideens (terrorists) on the ground."

http://timesofindia.ind.../articleshow/778241.cms


" Ishrat was our activist: Lashkar"

http://www.hinduonnet.c...es/2004071515561100.htm

shankar
Mumbai, India
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
266
>> Really ?? Must be news to the believers

You can believe those mullah links if you want to. Most Muslims don't.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
265
"However in reality there is no question that Syria, or Morocco or Iran or Malaysia see themselves as being nation states today as much as India or France"

Really ?? Must be news to the believers

1."Islam therefore leaves no room for the Saudi state, and Egyptian state, a
Malaysian state, an Iraninan state, or a Pakistani state. Islam calls for
one state with one ruler where all Muslims are bound by the `Aqeedah of
Islam. And this is a matter deciddd by Islam to which we must submit to.."

http://www.geocities.co...lds/2704/article29.html


2."But Islam is a religion with a social and philosophical worldview, and provides for economic and political principles. Nationalism, too, has its own social and political principles based however on different beliefs and criteria. Therefore, conflict between Islam and nationalism is inevitable. The Islamic ideology is not compatible with any other ideology on the question of sovereignty over the private and social life of Muslims. A Muslim cannot at the same time be a Muslim and a polytheist, or a Muslim and communist. In Islam, there is no room for one to be a loyal and genuine nationalist. It is a question of identity, and one negates the other.

Nationalism is incompatible with Islam, both schools having two opposite ideologies. These two assume two totally opposite poles in their spirit, essence, direction and goal.

As we shall explain later, the Quran has explicitly rejected the basis of nationalism, and states that language, colour and race are no criteria for unity and privilege. The only criteria are belief and virtue. A common ideology is the basis of the unity of the Islamic ummah, not race, country, language or even culture. The goal of nationalism is to create national units, whereas the goal of Islam is universal unity. To nationalism what matters the most is loyalty and attachment to the homeland, whereas to Islam, it is God and religion. Nationalism gives authenticity to geographical boundaries and racial distinctions, whereas Islam negates them. Nationalism inclines to limitation and race, but Islam assumes a universal outlook. "

http://www.al-islam.org/islamandnationalism/
shankar
Mumbai, India
Dec 16, 2006 12:00 AM
264
PRIORITY ONE

The priority number ONE is to ensure the survival of the Indic heritage. The fact that the Indic heritage has both subliminal highs and abysmal lows is for discussion AMONG the INDICS, AFTER their surviuval is ensured.

1. It's mission critical to collect factual data on Hindu-Buddhist genocides under the Islamic invasions and terror, since 712

2. Setting up of the Holocaust Museums throught India,

3. Population control strategies for ensuring PERMANENT majority for the Indics, in India.

4. The alternative is the CERTAIN demise of the Hindu-Buddhist heritage
Raj
Bowlingbrook, United States
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
263
Faruki wrote,
'Seems nothing is coming out of your musharraf!'
That is because you have a lot in your musharraf. And why should not you do so when you pass off 'assumptions and conjectures' as 'facts and truths'.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
262
Bairavi,

>> Nationalism is a concept alien to Islam.

The article you linked is based on 7th century dogma. That was long before the concept of nation state had developed. However in reality there is no question that Syria, or Morocco or Iran or Malaysia see themselves as being nation states today as much as India or France. The people there see themselve as Syrian nationalists or Moroccan nationalists and so on.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
261
TO GHULAM Y FARUKI

Islam and Nationalism !

Read an interesting article !

http://www.geocities.co...lds/2704/article29.html


Bairavi
Bairavi
Delhi, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
260
>> Indian nationalism is a diluting concept.

Indian nationalism is an inclusive non-divisive concept. More inclusive the concept, stronger we are.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
259
Rajeev,

>> There are too many variables you need to contend with.

Seems nothing is coming out of your musharraf!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
258
Mr Ghai,

>> you feel that remaining santanazs are really offensive or just a way to oppose what BJP preaches ?

They adore some goddesses. Islam is monotheistic. This controversy is older than the BJP. In 1937, Indian National Congress constituted a committee of Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, Jawahar Lal Nehru, Subhas Chandra Bose and Acharya Narendra Dev to consider about a national song. After consulting Rabindranath Tagore, the committee decided that the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram should be sung as national song during its functions. These very two stanzas only (out of many) are sung everywhere even now.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
257
Faruki wrote-
'Territorial yes. But cultural and ethnic elements mixed with nationalism is nazism.'
You have a tendency to constantly pull out stuff out of your musharraf. According to you
'Cultural Element + Ehtnic Elements + Nationalism = NAZIM'?
Faruki's theorem number xx8989898.
Human behaviour can not be categorised under clear categories such as 0 and 1, where 0 is No and 1 is Yes. There are too many variables you need to contend with.

Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
256
Faruki ji- you feel that remaining santanazs are really offensive or just a way to oppose what BJP preaches ?
This one of those issues for BJP and Beards which is handy to rub each other .
A K GHAI
MUMBAI, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
255
CHACHA JOE -I too respect you.Now Pakistan has forgotten WORD 'MENIAL JOBS' CHACHA -YOU THINK WE DON'T KNOW WHY???
HOLD YOUR BREATH CACHA ,HERE IS THE ANSWERE:
PAKISTAN FORGOT THE WORD 'MEANIAL JOBS 'BECAUSE ALL THE CREAMY civil JOBS BRAVE MILITARY OF PAKISTAN HAS GRABBED -SO WHATEVER JOBS LEFT FOR ORDINARY PEOPLE THOSE THEY PREFFERED TO CALL as JOBS & JOB IS JOB ! HOW COULD THEY CALL IT MEANI oops ! My mistake Chacha .

By the way you agree to my analysis of Altaf Hussain's complaints ??Correct me if I am wrong ??
I heard Altaf on T V singing
SARE JEHAN SE ACCHA HINDUSTAN HAMARA !
A K GHAI
MUMBAI, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
254
Bairavi,

>> Why does nationalism have to be identified as "Hindu"? Primarily because muslims donot believe in nationalism.

That is a made up reason. You know that the real reason is to create classes of Indians, the "true" Indians, and those that will just be tolerated. That has been the position of the sangh since its inception.

>> They believe in globalism

If you are referring to the ummah, that is an abstract and emotional concept, which is not at all inconsistent with Indian nationalism.

>> well deserved deaths of muslims in Palenstine and Kashmir

I will not comment on that.

>> Do we hindus give a toss to what happens to the Fijian Hindus: NO

Is that good? I thought that Hindus did the right thing two weeks ago when they protested the demolition of a Hindu temple in Kazakhistan.

>> "Nationalism" is defined as the belief that groups of people are bound together by territorial, cultural and ethnic links.

Territorial yes. But cultural and ethnic elements mixed with nationalism is nazism.

>> their cultural allegiance is to Vatican and Mecca.

It is not an allegiance. There are no formal ties between Indian Muslims and any Meccan religious body, because there is no Church in Islam. Non-catholic Christians have no allegiance to the Vatican. This so called "allegiance" is totally irrelevant to the concept of Indian nationalism.

>> it has got to be the cultural Hinduism that forms the basis of Indian nationalism

That is a dangerous concept. Cultural Hinduism is the rightful basis of the Hindu community. Indian nationalism is the proud and inspiring sentiment that unites all Indian nationals.

>> These two groups, Chrisitians and Islamists, donot have any cultural orientation towards India.

Again you mix nationalism with culture. Moreover having "cultural orientation towards India" is a very vague and ill-defined concept, and of no practical value.

>> This is what is happening in the case of singing Vande Matram or hoisting our proud tri-colour.

There should be no objection to singing the first two stanzas of vande maatram which have no references to any gods or goddesses, and to saluting the flag, but if some orthodox religious Muslims object to certain symbolisms on religious grounds, that does not make them anti-national. Our nationalism is greater than our symbols.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
253
READ -AFRAID TO ANSWERE-WHICH YOU ARE CHACHA DEAR-
A K GHAI
MUMBAI, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
252
Chacha -I don't know why you always fight for words here and there .Please if you have not OR AGRAID TO answere please forget it. FACTS stand that Urdu speaking Muslims who were on forefront for struggle for Pakistan have been cheated by Punjabi Muslims.PUNJABI MUSLIMS GOT ALL THE CREAMY JOBS AND LEFT THE CRUMBS FOR SINDHIS,MUHAJIRS,BENGALIS,BALOCHS,PATHANS--(So crumbs are ok instead of menial jobs or should I say non creamy jobs ?)

SO ALTAF HUSSAIN IS RIGHT ! SO WAS KHAN GAFAR KHAN ! They rightly SAID -Pak is for Punjabi Muslim's jagir ! Rest all are ghulams !
Chacha has Pak learnt any thing from Bangladesh dabacle ? Now you HAVE put Balochistan,FATA ,WAZIRISTAN ON FIRE !
A K GHAI
MUMBAI, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
251
PARTHASARATHY SAYS:

>>> One would get the impression, reading these posts, that the BJP ians on this forum have nt bothered to read Arundhatis 13 questions.

Well, the 13 killer questions had been risen during each stage of the investigation and they had all been proven to be the handiwork of the loonies.

What evidence do you want. He is a Kashmiri and a muslim. Is it not sufficient enough. Hang him and at once. Atleast, we are not asking for three male eye witnesses to confirm the case according to Shariah.

>>> It needs a lot of sincerity and devotion to answer these questions properly.

All the Indian courts have proven their sincerrity and devotion to the principle of equality. They have convicted him and hang him and at once.

>>> it is mysterious why even the present non-BJP minister seemingly is part of the conspiracy.

Are the non-BJP guys saints or what? We had witnessed most and horrific communal riots under the non-BJP regimes. They are soft hindutvadis veiled as secularists. They are not definitely Hindu-haters like you idiots.

Bairavi
Bairavi
Delhi, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
250
PARTHASARATHY:

"In his statement before the court, Afzal says that he was introduced to "Mohammed" and instructed to take him to Delhi by a man called Tariq, who was working with the STF. Tariq was named in the police charge sheet. WHO IS TARIQ AND WHERE IS HE NOW?"

"One would get the impression, reading these posts, that the BJP ians on this forum have nt bothered to read Arundhatis 13 questions."

Parthasarathy, you are wrongly assuming that Afzal and Arundhati Roy are not lying. Afjal is a criminal. Whatever he says has no relevance. Arundhati is a traitor pseudo-secular. Whatever she says is useless. There is absolutely no need to believe in what they are saying and reply their questions.
Satish
Pune, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
249
PARTHASARATHY SAYS:

>>> The present Home Minister should resign forthwith due to abject incompetence on his part and failure to launch an impartial enquiry to arrive at the truth.

Are you demanding an impartial enquiry lead by an leading Maulana under Shariah law. I thought it was already happening in the country. Maulanas decide what we does the country, not only the muslims, need. They say no to Israeli relations, no to Dannish PM's visit, no to Indo-US nucleal deal. They also have Shariah in the country to say that raped muslim women need to marry the rapist and call her erstwhile husband a son. What a wisdom do you find in Islam.

>>> Due to the extremely serious nature of the allegations against the former ruling party, the previous Home Minister and Prime Minister have to be interrogated to ascertain the real motive behind the 'Parliament attack'. Keeping in mind that this 'attack' was reason for taking the country to the brink of nuclear war, no effort, including torture, should be spared to arrive at the truth.

What serious allegations you idiot. The allegation is that the congress appeases the muslim minority notwithstanding their disloyalty to the country and their danger to the country. So we need an investigation for that and not to find out whether Advaniji or Atalji were involved in blowing up the parliament.

Get serious you idiot. If Thackery and Advani could not be charged for their open complicity in wonderful Bombay riots and the beautiful destruction of the symbol of slavery (Ayodhya) despite the commission reports suggesting their involvement in these events, nothing could be done. They are as powerful now as they were ever. Donot get your self indulged in saying there were serious allegations against them and not even torture be spared to get the truth. It works only against muslims. Whenever there are also serious allegations against muslims, bring them in (whether they are involved or not) and torture them and make them to confess and then sentence them. Because the collective conscience of the Hindu nation should be addressed only by torturing and hanging these anti-national muslims.

Bairavi
Bairavi
Delhi, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
248
Guys, dont get fooled by this Partha dude's posts. He is simply posting Arundhati's article in installments!!! Seems to have his brain in his musharraf...
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
247
In the previous post, "How come only PRD Munshi counted six and no other MPs, Security Personnels, visitors etc. counted less?", should be read as "How come only PRD Munshi counted six and no other MPs, Security Personnels, visitors etc. counted the same no.?"
Satish
Pune, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
246
PARTHASARATHY:

"The chief whip of the Congress party, Priyaranjan Das Munshi, said, "I counted six men getting out of the car. But only five were killed."

How come only PRD Munshi counted six and no other MPs, Security Personnels, visitors etc. counted less?

"The close circuit TV camera recording clearly showed the SIX men."

Afjal underwent 3 trils in 3 different courts and got death penalty in all courts. Do you think that the judges in all 3 courts had overlooked this FACT?

"If Das Munshi was right, why did the police say that there were only FIVE people in the car?"

Who told you that Das Munshi was right and police were wrong?

"Who was the SIXTH person? Where is he now? WHY WAS THE CCTV RECORDING NOT PRODUCED BY THE PROSECUTION AS EVIDENCE IN THE TRIAL?"

The sixth person could be Afjal who might have escaped from the scene. By the way, even if we assume that there was a sixth person present, shall we pardon Afjal for that? Mumbai police are not able to arrest Dawood, Tiger Memon etc. croocks. Shall that court set free all other accused since the masterminds are absconding?

"On December 19, 2001, six days after the Parliament attack, Police Commissioner, Thane (Maharashtra), S.M. Shangari, identified one of the attackers killed in the Parliament attack as Mohammed Yasin Fateh Mohammed (alias Abu Hamza) of the Lashkar-e-Toiba, who had been arrested in Mumbai in November 2000, and immediately handed over to the J&K Police. He gave detailed descriptions to support his statement. If Police Commissioner Shangari was right, how did Mohammed Yasin, a man in the custody of the J&K Police, end up participating in the Parliament attack? If he was wrong, WHERE IS MOHAMMED YASIN NOW?"

It is very easy to find the link between J&K police and Mohammed Yasin. I am not at all surprised that J&K police must have helped him escaping. How he managed to escape and where he is now etc. should be asked to him and J&K police. Afjal's hanging shall not wait for it.

"WHY? WHAT IS THE HURRY?"

This is because if he is not hanged, his friends can do another Kandahar type hijack and release him. Or Humanity goddesses like Suzzane Arundhati Roy will demand his release on humanatarian grounds. And once he is out, he will create havoc.

It is a myth that professional criminals give up crime after spending few years in jail. Masood Azhar (who was released during Kandahar episode) was in jail for 6 years before his release. Even after spendng 6 years in jail, he has continued his crimes with more intensity. Had he been hanged immediately after his arrest, India would have saved lives of at least few hundred innocent citizens.
Satish
Pune, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
245
"
WHY IS IT THAT WE STILL DONT KNOW WHO THE FIVE DEAD 'TERRORISTS' KILLED IN THE PARLIAMENT ATTACK ARE"

We are repeatedly told here that terrorists have no religion..for the sake of identification you can call them - arundhati, prashanth bhushan , nandini, medha and sitaram. Fact is they attacked the parliamnet and got killed by security forces. You can give them any name you want.
shankar
Mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
244
"Why was it not RELEASED for PUBLIC viewing?"

Ask Sonia Mata. Both Sibal and Dsmunshi are Union Ministers in the UPA government now. What is stopping them from releasing this for public viewing , so that eben you can count?
shankar
Mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
243
"'RJD member involved in 7/11 blasts'"

In a major breakthrough in the 7/11 Mumbai blasts case, key accused Mohammad Afzal Sheikh has confessed that one of those involved in the conspiracy was an RJD member and campaigner. Mohammad Afzal Sheikh has also told the police that the Mumbai attacks were a revenge for the 2002 Gujarat riots and that they had also hatched the plot for the foiled terrorist attack in Ayodhya in 2005.


http://www.expressindia...lstory.php?newsid=78240


All the proponent of the theory that it Was RSS/ BJP / chaddis who masterminded the blasts can go and eat crow now.

RJD is 100% "secular"..Anyways Secularism Zindabad!!

P>S> The Bombay Police is controlled by Congress - NCP government, both certifiesd "secular". Now wait for the "secular" gymnastics to defend the indefensible.
shankar
Mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
242
"Even the supreme court judgment, does not accuse Afzal of being the mastermind..."

SO? Big deal. Which section of the IPC says that only "master minds" should be given death sentence and not other coconspirators.

"So who was the mastermind?"

The search is still on. The security agencies will find him and hang him. If you know the answer, share it with others.

"If Afzal is hanged, we may never know. "

So Afzal knows who is the mastermind. Knowing the plan to attack the parliament and not informing the same to authorities makes him an accomplice in the crime. You pronounced him guilty just now. Why does not he tell the truth atleast now? May be he gets a few more nubile virgins than the allotted 72 , when he goes to heaven. What is stopping him from naming the mastermind? Bush, Modi or Isreal?

"WHY? WHAT IS THE HURRY? "

because we do not want another Kandahar and he has exhausted his legal avenues..One extra meal to this scum in the jail is a waste of taxpayers money.

shankar
Mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
241
PARTHASARATHY SAYS:

>>>>> I am looking for answers to my queries

If you are given an answer, can your atom sized brain understand what we talk about. You simply copy the materials on net and post them here without even discussing further what you have already said. Some one said you are an ISI agent. If that is the case, ISI is not doing a good job. In this forum, there are more intelligent muslims and christians (a guy with two atom sized brain who compared the costs of briyani and the energy price in Bangladesh), who could do better jobs that what you do for ISI.

>>> Even the supreme court judgment, does not accuse Afzal of being the mastermind.

Should only the masterminds need to be given death sentence and other sub-masterminds be absolved of their complicity in the crime against our proud India. SC accuses him of being a complicit in the crime against nation. That is enough to hang him and hang him now.

>>> So who was the mastermind? If Afzal is hanged, we may never know.

Masterminds were all dead they were all Pakistani muslims provided shelter and logistics by Indian muslims.

>>> But LK ADVANI, the leader of the opposition, wants him hanged at once.

The entire nation, excep the loonies like you, wants him hanged and at once.

>>> Even a day's delay, he says, is against the national interest.

What better wisdom would he bring us. Can you turn him into Astronaut or a nobel laureate or a messenger of peace (why on earth do we need a peace messenger). If not why spend the tax payers money to feed, shelter and cloth this anti-national. Cannot we redirect these resources the development of our less priviledged muslims. Every little penny helps, though not uplifting them necessarily (atleast it could appease their enormous appetite).
Bairavi
Delhi, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
240
Partha, after listening to the whole Ramayan, you are asking who was Sita’s father. Why are you parroting what Arundhati said in her article? Do you have any thing to ADD to what she said? If you want answer to your stupid questions, go back to the oldest post and start reading from there.

You worry, you won’t get bored because Kujli chacha (that’s Joseph from Karachi to those who came in late) has done a wonderful job of keeping us humoured.

And just an advise, read something other than Frontline and The Hindu too. It will broaden your mental horizon. At least you will know about the other party’s arguments.
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
239
GHULAM Y FARUKI SAYS:

>>>> Why does nationalism have to be identified as "Hindu"?

Primarily because muslims donot believe in nationalism. They believe in globalism which is entirely contradictory to the notion of nationalism. Muslims believe in Ummah that is why they unnecessarily get agitated for the well deserved deaths of muslims in Palenstine and Kashmir (Do we hindus give a toss to what happens to the Fijian Hindus: NO)
Well, "Nationalism" is defined as the belief that groups of people are bound together by territorial, cultural and ethnic links. Even though muslims and christians have territorial and ethnic links with India, their cultural allegiance is to Vatican and Mecca. This confusion could be clearly seen in their caste system. They say they donot have caste system and other discriminations in their religions only to be told by Sacchar that it does exist. Also the Dalit christians demand for reservation is ridiculous: can you be dalit and christian. It is rather confusing that you want to have the cake and eat it. Even the western societies which evolved into the securlar societies over a period of time have christianity as the base of their cultural traditions. For example, X-mas. In all the western countries, inlcuding the catholic west, X-mas is a cultural celebration (with very less religious connotations and more cultural exibitionism). It is in this regard it has got to be the cultural Hinduism that forms the basis of Indian nationalism; hence it is obviously Hindu nationalism.

>>>> Should it not be labelled as Indian nationalism rather than as Hindutva, so that all Indians, including Muslims and Christians can join Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs and Jains in being nationalists together?

I do not understand why the muslims, when pushed to the corner, try to club themselves with other religious minorities. Other reglions are derivates of Hinduism and they are not alien to Indian culture unlike Islam and Christianity. Irrespective of their religious believes they are Indians both culturally and ethnically. These two groups, Chrisitians and Islamists, donot have any cultural orientation towards India. If you bring in Indian nationalism incorporating the values of these two alien religions you are basically diluting the very meaning of nationalism. This is what is happening in the case of singing Vande Matram or hoisting our proud tri-colour. Singing Vande Matram or hoisting tri-colour, the christians and muslims say are in contradictory to their regigious believes. You do not have other religious minorities saying this because for them Hindu nationalism is cultural nationalism.

Bairavi
Bairavi
Delhi, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
238
Mr. Parthasarathy, please take my advice. Please be more discrete, oblique and diplomatic in your pointations. Otherwise you may be 'abused' out.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
237
Side-stepping the unfortunate use of the words 'menial jobs', Mr. A. K. Ghai?. Answer me why you used that 'derogatory word'?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
236
Chacha -I simply wanted to know how the Biharis who left India have fared in East Pakistan ? But chacha you have read me Roit Act. AAP TOH CHACHA PURA JUNGLE HI GHOMA AYE PAR JWAB NAHI MILA.
CHALO EVENING MEIN BAAT KARTE HEIN.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
235
I love you, Mr. A. K. Ghai, for your recall of the words 'menial-jobs' that disused and long-forgotten word in Pakistan.

It is so reflective of a Caste-ridden India and
a Caste-Bouden Hindu after 10,000 years of History and 300 years of Modern Education. Old habits diehard in India. You are in a time wrap.

In non-Hindu countries, a job is seen as a job as they are not constrained by the Brahmin=Sudra spectrum.

A job is a job. The Biharis, as I see it, are self-employed and there is nothing 'menial' about that. That apart, I mentioned Bihari Office workers but to suit your purpose you chose to ignore that bit.

For how long will all you guys twist and turn to try and trip. You are unlikely to suceed as I am quite clear imn my yhinkind and well-documented in my observations.

All I get are questions, questions and more questions which I am expected to answer and which I do. This is because I have nothing to hide or be ashamed about.

On the other hand, the Indian side in this Forum refuse to answer my questions but prefer instead to deny my observations and plague me with more questions.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
234
JOE CHCHA _WHILE WE ARE AT BANGLADESH my question is why Bihari Muslims are only doing menial jobs ? Any body among Biharis done well ?
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
233
I do not need to be humoured, Mr. A. K. Ghai. I need to be understood, appreciated and listened to. If that only happened South Asia would be a better place. Got it?
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
232
I have been around the 'Bihari Camps' in Mohammadpur and Mirpur in Dhaka. I have talked to innumerable ethnic Biharis of all ages from chowkidars or durwans, maid-servants, rickshaw-pullers, auto-rickshaw and taxi cab drivers and ordinary office workers in Bangladesh.

This is how it happens. We begin conversing in Bangla and notice each others 'peculiar' accents, ask each other about our ethnicity and switch to Urdu. This was an almost daily happening during my recent three year stay in Bangladesh.

These people told me the following.

a. Those Biharis who want to return to Pakistan are all above 65 years of age and are still imbued with the spirit of Pakistan.

b. Their number is small and, obviously, is diminishing with time.

c. Those in the age group 33 to 65 have some interest left as they are living with the those 65 plus or those who have Bihari spouses.

d. Those in the aforesaid age groups married to non-Biharis are least interested and most speak Bangla and Urdu with equal fluency.

e. Those younger than 33 have accepted Bangladesh as their country, married ethnic Bengalis and their children do not speak Urdu.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
231
I have been around the 'Bihari Camps' in Mohammadpur and Mirpur in Dhaka. I have talked to innumerable ethnic Biharis of all ages from chowkidars or durwans, maid-servants, rickshaw-pullers, auto-rickshaw and taxi cab drivers and ordinary office workers in Bangladesh.

This is how it happens. We begin conversing in Bangla and notice each others 'peculiar' accents, ask each other about our ethnicity and switch to Urdu. This was an almost daily happening during my recent three year stay in Bangladesh.

These people told me the following.

a. Those Biharis who want to return to Pakistan are all above 65 years of age and are still imbued with the spirit of Pakistan.

b. Their number is small and, obviously, is diminishing with time.

c. Those in the age group 33 to 65 have some interest left as they are living with the those 65 plus or those who have Bihari spouses.

d. Those in the aforesaid age groups married to non-Biharis are least interested and most speak Bangla and Urdu with equal fluency.

e. Those younger than 33 have accepted Bangladesh as their country, married ethnic Bengalis and their children do not speak Urdu.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
230
Chacha you will learn more 1971 -R J RUMMEL -STATICS OF PAK DOMICIDE.
Bechare Biharion ko Pakistan anne di jiey.Whoh ham se Panah- mang rahe hain Chacha .Hame bahut sharam aati hain Paodsion ka yeh hall dekh kar.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
229
We have given him free hand to humour you Chacha !
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
228
B stands for BIGOT stands for BHAIRAVI whereas P stands for Patriot stands for PARTHASARATHY.

Furthermore, what is India's 2.16 million Army plus Navy plus Air Force plus Border Security Force plus Police plus National Guards plus RAW plus Local Agents plus.... doing to earn their living if the ISI allegedly can reach Chennai.

If Partha is an alleged ISI Agent because he says it as it is then that is a separate issue.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
227
Faruki - "it is true that Hindutvadis do not propose any jazia tax on non-Hindus, but the Hindutva concept is designed to divide "true" Indians from those Indians who would just be tolerated."

To reiterate for the Nth time, Hindutva is a way of life and has got nothing to do with religion..and has been even defined as such by the Supreme court of India..


http://www.bjp.org/history/htv-jag.html


It is a fallacy and an error of law to proceed on the assumption that any reference to Hindutva or Hinduism in a speech makes it automatically a speech based on Hindu religion as opposed to other religions or that the use of the word Hindutva or Hinduism per se depicts an attitude hostile to all persons practising any religion other than the Hindu religion... and it may well be that these words are used in a speech to emphasise the way of life of the Indian people and the Indian cultural ethos...There is no such presumption permissible in law contrary ot the several Constitution Bench decisions.
shankar
Mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
226
Bairaivi-Partha is a ISI plant.Don't waste energy on his posts as he is paid for spreading communal hate.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
225
The best way to deal with this, is to assume it was revenge for Babri Masjid, as every attack in India is now presumed to be. Well at least according to the self proclaimed defenders of secularism.
Raj Shah
New Jersey, USA
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
224
Bairavi says,

>> Hindutva is based on Hindu nationalism and it is not based on religion. Even the founding fathers fo Hindutva (Savarkar, you again do not know who is he) did not believe in Hinduism. They believed in Hindu nationalism.

Why does nationalism have to be identified as "Hindu"? Should it not be labelled as Indian nationalism rather than as Hindutva, so that all Indians, including Muslims and Christians can join Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs and Jains in being nationalists together? It is true that Hindutvadis do not propose any jazia tax on non-Hindus, but the Hindutva concept is designed to divide "true" Indians from those Indians who would just be tolerated. The writings of the founders of the Sangh, Savarkar and Golwalkar, make no bones about giving a lesser citizenship status to Muslims, and their admiration for Nazism and Italian Fascism cannot be cloaked even if attempts are made to underplay it. The doctrine of "Islamism" was correctly identified as being fascist by several prominent Muslims in a joint manifesto, and the double standards of Islamic regimes, both in India of the past and in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere now have to be condemned, rather than emulated.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
223
"Hindutva is a political ideology. It advocates use of violence, confuses nationality with culture and religion, is supremacist and exclusionary"

This is pure 100% Goebbelian. Hindus have every right to their own homeland whether others like their culture or not. Despite its many blemishes (even cancerous) Hinduism is INFINITELY better than the Saudi Culture and their so-called "RELIGION" (Unadulterated militarist, fanatical, intolerant, bigoted, ideology).

Out of Vedic-Brahmanic culture, Buddhism revolutionized human culture and consciousness, permanently. But, Buddhism compromised with Brahminism on rites and rituals and did not deem them worth fighting against-just worthy of repudiation. Hinduism evolved out of the Buddhist awakening culture, unfortunately, unable to get rid of the symbolism and much worse- social inequality at birth. Only technical skills, widespread,would take care of it
Raj
Bowlingbrook, United States
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
222
"Is it OK to be admirers of Lenin, Stalin and Mao?"

Yes. Thats what makes one progressive in India. Stalin killed 35 million people. Mao killed 70 million people. Lenin was able to kill only 5 million because he himself died. Else he would have set a record. But these are the heroes of the left. As late as 1999, Frontline ran a piece praising Mao. Even after 1956 when Khruschev exposed Stalin, our liberals never denounced them. Hitler is a baby compared with Stalin or Mao.

But you never hear comparisons with them. Bush or Modi are repeatedly called Hitler but never Stalin or Mao. The reason is simple. Hitler was a loser while Stalin and Mao emerged as winners. That explains the fascination of the left. If Hitler had prevailed in the war, he would have been the hero and Bush and Modi would have been compared with Stalin.

The left's opposition to Hitler is not because he was a racist and a killer but because he lost.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
221
PARTHASARATHY SAYS:

In addition, accusations of "fascism" in BJP the Hindutva movement coming from the left wing parties and western academics such as Christoffe Jaffrelot have been criticized by former professor of political philosophy and Times of India commentator Jyotirmaya Sharma as a "simplistic transference [that] has done great injustice to our knowledge of Hindu nationalist politics".


Christoffe Jaffrelot: He did a book on the political nationalism in India and he became an expert to refer to for leftists. Even the referencs in this book are from the newspapers and interviews and not from any scholarly academic journals. This book was extremely criticised by the reviewers for the lack of rigorous academic research. Rather it was described as a long piece of edited newspaper clippings.

>>>> former professor of political philosophy and Times of India commentator Jyotirmaya Sharma as a "simplistic transference [that] has done great injustice to our knowledge of Hindu nationalist politics".

It looks as if you have copied it from a web page. This guy was working as a columnist for Times of India at Hyderabad before moving onto The Hindu. He is currently (for the last few years) working for The Hindu as a columnist. He is known for criticising anything "Hindu" and it is surprising that you have said that he is critical of leftists.

Also he is neither a former professor nor a current professor. He was just doing his doctorate programme in one of the British universities and was thrown out because he could not complete it. Then he came back and joined CSDS. He never undertook any teaching responsibility in his entire career but still he introduces himself as a former professor at UK. It is an entire lie and you can verify with his "so called" former employers (Hull & Oxford), and present employer The Hindu.

Bairavi
Bairavi
Delhi, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
220
PARTHASARATHY SAYS

>>>> Nazism in Germany under Hitler said the same thing.

You have once proved your educational background. I have already written a response to it and it would be silly to hammer it into your wooden head time and again.

>>>> Sangh Parivar is a loose network of organizations led by the RSS whose founders were admirers of Adolf Hitler.

Is it OK to be admirers of Lenin, Stalin and Mao?

>>>>> The intemperate statements of the leaders of Hindutva make no attempt to disguise their agenda.

How temperate are these statementa: "muslims would have first access to resources" (however idiotic they may be). "51 crore for the killers of those who drew the cartoon of prophet" (PBUH). "Hang Salman Rushdie"

>>>> They seek to establish a Hindu state where the minorities will have to live as subjugated citizens and objects of suspicion.

No, Hindutva does not say that non-Hindus should have subjugated to Hindus. It is not after revenge for how Islam treated non-Islamists. Though we have every right to take revenge on these recent petty converts to Islam, Hindutva does not say anything about subjugation. It only talks about their allegiance to Hindu nationalist values based on its cultures. This is what we expect least from the neo-converts to Islam. Since because you converted to Islam (to avoid paying Jazia), you donot become a part of global Islam and get yourself acknowledge by Arab muslims. Still they treat you the way others treat you (still you manial jobs in the middle east. You are not exactly running Infosys's Gulf division). Hindutva seeks to establish a Hindu nationalist state where people adhere to the values of Hindu nationalism. It is also the where every one is treated equally before law (no Shariah, no Haj subsidy, no reservation exclusively for muslims in AMU, no 370 in Kashmir, no reservation exception for minority institutions).

>>> As Pandit Nehru foresaw many years ago, majority communalism, if allowed to foster, invariably leads to fascism.

Pandit foresaw many more things: Fight against Imperialism (funny some of his family were educated by imperialists); Hindi-Chini Bai Bai and his vision for India to be a global leader for third world countries. Even during his life he realised how dreamy and how unrealistic he was. I only wished him to live longer to witness Ayodhya, to see Narendra Modi and to read Sacchar report.

>>> Similarly, minorities in India today have to constantly prove their Indian-ness over and over again, in face of a constantly changing set of arbitrary criteria established by the Sangh.

It is not that all minorities need to prove their Indian-ness. It is only the muslims the non-muslims are after to show their Indian-ness. After all they display no concern for Kashmiri pandits and have concerns for Islamists in Palenstine, Lebanon and in Kashmir. The least we could expect from the muslims (after having spent so much of our resources unsuccessfully and still willing to give them the first access), is to get them to show their allegiance to India. It is not that we expect much from the muslims. Just an allegiance to India. Is it too much to ask from them?

Bairavi
Bairavi
Delhi, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
219
>>>>> Hindutva is a political ideology. It advocates use of violence, confuses nationality with culture and religion, is supremacist and exclusionary

What about Islam?. Is it not a way of life? (much more than socio-political ideology). Does it embrace everyone. Does it not preach violence?. Does it not askone to kill non-believers? Islam tells you how to sleep, eat, sit, beat your wife, how many times to pray, when, how and where to fast. Where to bank?. (even the 2 or 3 year old kids in my neighbourhood are aware of this and they are not taught these things by Islam). Atleast Hindutva does not tell you how to not to use your brain in telling all these things?.

>>>> It believes that only people who support it should have first class citizenship in India. All others should be second class citizens.

What about Jazia tax (do you even know what it is?). What did it advocate?. If you were a non-muslim in even in a Hindu country like India, you had to pay this tax, because you were a non-citizen. The best way to avoid this is to convert to Islam and save your money. All those incapable of paying this tax got converted to Islam. So it is Islam that treats non-believers non-citizens and not Hindutva. Hindutva is based on Hindu nationalism and it is not based on religion. Even the founding fathers fo Hindutva (Savarkar, you again do not know who is he) did not believe in Hinduism. They believed in Hindu nationalism. So do not get confused by reading the second rated articles in Frontline that too by people like Praveen Swami.
Bairavi
Delhi, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
218
PARTHASARATHY SAYS

You once again proved that you read only second rated magazine like Frontline and nothing else. The article you have linked is done by Praveen Swami, who in his own article argued that Malegaon bomb blasts could have been the work of right wing hindu elements. Once the police arrested people related to SIMI, there was no response either from him or his marxist newspaper. It was the same guy who argued (again in frontline) that the charges against Natwar Singh were instigated because of his anti-americanism. Once the skeletons started tumbling in natwar case, this guy and the magazine just kept quiet. He did not even bother to tender an apology. If you could link an article written by this guy, I can only imagine your single digit IQ. Did you go to Pachayappa's or an illiterate?

>>>>>> Simply put, Hindu fundamentalism poses the greatest danger to a pluralist and secular society in India.

What about Islamic fundamentalism?. Does it enhance our your wisdom and make us all wise including your Pachayappa brain?

>>>> majority communalism has taken on an entirely new form of expression.

No this is not the first Hindus and Muslims are fighting over a land. It is as old as the presence of Islam in India. To say that majority communalism started since 1992 would be surprising even to an infant (may not be for frontline readers)

>>>> "communal riots" has become a euphemism for pogroms against the minority communities. Gujarat is only its most virulent manifestation

Again communal riots are not new to India. We had it even during the time of Brits. Even before Gujarat, we had its most virulent manifestation in Khilafat movement which resulted in the killing of thousands of hindus at the hands of illiterate muslims (in places like malabar where it was very common). There were many more virulent manifestations of communalism in the past and it did not start with either ayodhya or Gujarat.

>>>>> Hindutva is different from Hinduism. Most followers of Hinduism, like the followers of any other religion are peaceful, non-violent and tolerant.

Is it?. Looks like I am taken back to my school days except for the difference that the this teacher is ignorant of either history or political science or for that matter anything sensible.
Bairavi
Delhi, India
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
217
"Anil-Must say your last post brought a smile on my face. If anyone understands Ghulam and how his mind ticks, it is you..." HINDUSTAN FOR HINDUS

Instead of this small talk please focus on Strategic issue-Prevention of Islamization of India, through

1. Collecting FACTUAL information on Hindu-Buddhist massacres by the Islamic terrorists and setting up of Holocaust Museums, nationwide,

2. Having a one-child NATIONAL policy. Those having more shall have the State raise them in a true "secular" fashion, like in China. Parents have no right to indoctrinate and poison the young minds.

This population policy should be welcomed by the Congress-Left and the Hindu-Christian-Moslem clergy and intellectuals-since this is the ONLY way for peace and communal harmony in India. This is based on REALISM and COMPASSION-not on illwill and aversion.
Raj
Bowlingbrook, United States
Dec 15, 2006 12:00 AM
216
One of the possible scenarios predicted by a senior RAW official just after the Indian withdrawal from the borders in the heights of Operation Parakram was, India would've surely began the campaign against the Pakis if there were atleast one Politician in the parliament was killed in that attack and also the US helping us in taking out the N-Bombs in Pak with the obvious result of BJP's India winning the war and taking back PoK.

Hang this bastard... for not planning better to eliminate atleast one MP.
Theo van Gogh
Amsterdam, Netherlands
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
215
"Pandit Nehru foresaw many years ago, majority communalism, if allowed to foster, invariably leads to fascism." And minority communalism, tended carefully and nurtured generously, leads to a sumptuous vote bank, as Nehru and his secular disciples discovered.
KVjayan
Chennai, India
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
214
Teesta Setalvad, Sitaram Yechuri,... you can't get better fruit cakes than these jokers.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
213
No, I am sure what BS you are talking about. Indian hindus are all embracing. I live in Bombay where I have many friends, including a kashmiri pandit, who keeps rozas for all 30 days during Ramzan. Many other who visit Mount Mary church to light candles, observe novena. You’ll find many Hindus visiting Haji Ali Dargah. Gurdwara is very much part of their daily routine.

It’s the calculator toting, musharraf talking, hot air rabid balloon variety like you that we are allergic to and are ‘selective’ about.
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
212
Chaitanya,

You want her to moderate her tone, but she is known for her outspokenness, and I assume she is willing to take the consequences of her outspokenness.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
211
Chaitanya,

>> I never known her utter anything pro-Hindu.

>> it's essential to talk about the other extreme once in a while

Her themes are leftist, secular, anti-rich, anti-corporations, anti-hindutva, and anti-imperialism. She is usually for the under-dog. It is true that there are many topics dear to you (and to me) that she has not written about, but no one has written about everything. She writes what she most cares about, as do all writers.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
210
Friends many interesting topics awit your attention.Why SO MUCH WASTAGE OF TIME FOR ARUNADITI WHO IS CONFIRMED INDIA HATER-ON TV SHE WISHED DESTRUCTION OF INDIAN STATE ?Let us move ahead friends.Leave her to stew in her own hatered !
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
209
Chaitanya,

>> Once someone feels the necessity to attack Hindus

I do not think she attacks Hindus or Hinduism. If she did, I would attack her myself. I do not share her leftist radical views, but I do believe that it is healthy in a vibrant democracy to have dissident voices, even extreme ones.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
208
Faruki ji -Hats off for praising Rushdie and Nsreen !
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
207
Kiran B,

>> Faruki sahib, your selective memory, selective hearing, selective intelligence, selective arguments, everything selective is beyond doubt now…

Makes me just like everybody else, in other words: normal.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
206
Mr.Ghai,

>> Faruki sahib-Salman Rusehdi is also a courageous writter. BUT No Muslim will ever admit it

I have spoken well of both Rushdie and Nasreen in this forum.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
205
I dont wish to attack Arundhathi personally, just her strange behaviour. She is obviously burning at the injustices of a country that does not have the good sense to just be golden all around.
And to rue that she will not ever be called to answer any of the questions that a certain section of Indians may wish to ask.
These are:
Is the PM so ridden with guilt on behalf of the Hindus? Is the average Congressmen or Leftist so riddled with guilt about the Hindu terror brigades over the millenia that have raped and ravaged this fair land of India, peopled by a quiet , peaceful muslim minority, loving and beneficient?
Are we really bad?
Have poor hindus who have been share croppers or casual labourers also discrimminated against the muslims?
Is the hindu Quam so despicable?
I was given to believe we as a community are disunited, week, fatalistic and utterly without charachter.
We seem to have united over millenia even when we were warding off marauders from across the himalayas in persecuting our persecutors. Strange!
Certainly hindus must be made to pay for all their past crimes of ommissions and commissions. Exterminate the pests. Long live India!
But Ms Roy is smart.
She does not attack the hindus or the faith only the unlovely political face that has been rather ineptly supposedly standing up for the discrimminated majority.
Till we talk openly about the wound of the Hindu psyche resulting from 800 yrs of occupation and then the hounding by a cunning british rule and then the great divide of 1947.
We actually need closure for 1947 and perhaps the persisitent needling by bleding hearts might force it to happen.
Inshalla!
Bindu Tandon
Mumbai, India
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
204
Faruki sahib, your selective memory, selective hearing, selective intelligence, selective arguments, everything selective is beyond doubt now…
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
203
Shankar-Star Tv sting operation showed FATWAS CAN BE PURCHASED BY GIVING A BRIBE OF RUPPES FIVE THOUSANDS TO CLERGY.Even Deobandi Maulana who issued Ftawa against singing of VANDE MATRAM OBLIDGED TV MEN BY ISSUING DESIRED FATWA.The poor Maulana was shown counting bribe money as a parting kick !
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
202
Thanks Mr. Faruki. Here are some more excerpts from the same article:

The anti-dam essay had its signs of self-absorption too. Its opening scene, of Ms. Roy laughing on the top of a hill, seemed a straight lift from the first lines of that monument to egotism, Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead. The essay was marked throughout by a conspicuous lack of proportion. To compare dams to nuclear weapons was absurd. To demonise technology was irresponsible.

Altogether, this was an essay written with passion but without care. In her stream-of-consciousness style, the arguments were served up in a jumble of images and exclamations with the odd number thrown in. The most serious objections to the dam, on grounds of social justice, ecological prudence and economic efficiency, were lost in the presentation. What struck one most forcibly was her atavistic hatred of science and a romantic celebration of adivasi lifestyles.

Arundhati Roy might very well equal Orwell and Karanth in her bravery. But she lacks their intellectual probity and judgment.
That she is careless is beyond dispute. She made disparaging remarks about the judges of the Supreme Court while that Court was hearing a case filed by the organisation she sought to support.
Now, in the light of the recent judgment sanctioning the elevation of the dam, five metres at a time, Ms. Roy has erupted again. The judges and judgment, she says, show that we are living in a "banana republic". She has suggested that the judges are ignorant and insensitive. Speaking to a foreign journalist, she has compared the judgment to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation's (NATO) bombing of Yugoslavia.

And the natural bent of this particular celebrity is towards hyperbole and hysteria. "When NATO bombed Yugoslavia," says Ms. Roy, "a tiger in the Belgrade zoo got so terrified that it started eating its own limbs. The people of the Narmada valley will soon start eating their own limbs." (quoted in the Asian Age, October 30).
I am told that Arundhati Roy has written a very good novel. Perhaps she should begin another. Her retreat from activism would - to use a term from economics - be a "Paretto optimum": good for literature, and good for the Indian environmental movement.
Postscript: As this article was going to press, the latest Outlook arrived, with Ms. Roy's latest venture into social science. It is like the others: self-regarding and self- indulgent. The essay is also self-contradictory, a jeremiad against the market and globalisation by one who is placed in the heart of the global market for celebrity-hood.
Among the targets singled out for attack this time is the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS). This is a curious choice, for so far as one can make sense of her arguement, Ms. Roy seems to share the RSS's understanding of politics. After reading Ms. Roy's most recent essay, I see no reason to revise my judgment: that we would all be better off were she to revert to fiction.
Here is the link for the whole article:

http://www.hinduonnet.c...26/stories/13260411.htm

Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
201

http://www.mid-day.com/...s/2002/august/30227.htm


You criticised Arundhati Roy for her involvement in the Narmada movement. What’s your complaint against her?

I made two arguments. One, about her writing style. She tends to simplify complex issues into black-and-white positions. She exaggerates, uses hyperbole, and makes outrageous analogies such as comparing large dams and nuclear weapons. She made frivolous remarks like ‘the dam should be made a museum to failed technologies.’

This is dangerous because if you have people who shriek and simplify, the moderate environmental voice which after 20 years of hard work is beginning to be heard will also be called loony. The second criticism was about involvement of a celebrity like her in a social movement. Once a social movement gets a celebrity, it seems successful in the short term.

Young admirers of Roy’s fiction will come to the aandolan. The media will say this is a sexy topic; it will come. But it’s harmful in the long term because attention shifts away from the movement to the celebrity, so it becomes Roy vs So-and-So. Homes and displacement of tribals is forgotten.

Do you feel vindicated in your criticism today?

I’ve been proven right. Roy’s non-fiction writings have deteriorated, her writings on the bomb and the dam show exaggeration, those on globalisation show no understanding of economics, and those on 9/11 are totally off the wall. In her writings on Gujarat riots, she made up incidents.

These fabrications discouraged the secular press. However good a fiction writer she may be, she is a careless, slipshod and not very effective writer of social and political commentary. Her celebrity status has also caused harm. There was a rally in the valley, in which 600 people were present. 300 of them were mediapersons. Better have 3,000 people without Arundhati!
shankar
Mumbai, India
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
200
Faruki sahib-Salman Rusehdi is also a courageous writter. BUT No Muslim will ever admit it .Why ?Becuse Samaman writes against Muslim's hypocracy and Beards get offended.
Simalarly Arunaditi-a Christian lady is Anti Hindu and PATHOLOGICALLY INDIA HATER IS NOT LIKED BY INDIANS AND HINDUS.
She has not to hide fearing death due to Fatwas issued by Muslim clergy like Salman Rushdi.There is also a MUSLIM woman writer from Bangla Desh hiding in India fearing Beards FROM BD.
HAD ROY WRITTEN ONE TENTH ABOUT MUSLIMS OF WHAT SHE WROTE AGAINST INDIA AND HINDUS SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN KILLED BY NOW ! ASK HER TO WRITE ABOUT ISLAM THEN WE WILL SEE HER COURAGE !
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
199
Fatwa time once again.. Now on UPCC chief..

Now a fatwa against UPCC chief

"A few days after his participation in a yagna organised by enthusiastic Congressmen on December 9 (Sonia Gandhi's birthday), Khurshid finds himself facing an "identity crisis".

Even as he stoutly defends his presence at the do as a " mark of respect and camaraderie shown towards the Hindu brethren," the ultra conservative lobby here writes him off as a true follower of Islam. "




http://timesofindia.ind.../articleshow/808709.cms


Fist claim holders who are so poor they cant even earn a singlee meal after working 24 hours.. but have enough time to pass these fatwas..
shankar
Mumbai, India
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
198
To Hell with Suzanna A. Roy. The lady is filled with hate for everything on the face of earth. I wonder if she'd ever find any damn positive thing to write about.
srihari rajasekhar
johnson city, USA
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
197
Chaitanya,

Thanks for those links. A lot has been written about Arundhati. The following is from a piece in the Hindu by Ramchandra Guha (November 2000) :

"It is tempting to see Arundhati Roy as the Arun Shourie of the left. The super-patriot and the anti-patriot use much the same methods. Both think exclusively in black and white. Both choose to use a 100 words when 10 will do. Both arrogate to themselves the right to hand out moral certificates. Those who criticise Shourie are characterised as anti-national, those who dare take on Roy are made out to be agents of the State. In either case, an excess of emotion and indignation drowns out the facts.

"One must grant that Arundhati Roy is a courageous woman. Other novelists like to shut themselves away from the world, but she has sought engagement with it. She followed her printed blasts with long, tiring journeys in inhospitable terrain, to show her solidarity with the anti-nuclear and anti-dam protesters. Most writers have been individualists and careerists. An all-too-small minority has shown an awareness of public issues."

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
196
"She is a Christian. Her full name is Suzanna Arundhati Roy"

What's Raja Sekhar "Reddy's" real name? He is a Christian-hoodwinking the Telugus with his "fraudulent" name and the Goebbelian "free power" politics, just before elections, that gave Suzanne her current power status.

He surrendered two days ago his "EXCESS" 600+ acres in his village so he could go up against Ramoji Rao's film city land (a supporter of Naidu! Why not surrender the EXCESS corruption money, running into billions of rupees, as alleged by his political ally, the CPM?
Raj
Bowlingbrook, United States
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
195
"The Nation could've benefitted a lot if any of those filthy garbages sitting inside in the then opposition benches were killed in that attack. "

Amen!
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
194
Hanging or no-Hanging... the wide support base he got in & outside J&K plus the usual Pseudo-secular support will definetely be a morale booster for all Pakis & Bangis looking for an opportunity to plan another round of attacks. We all deserve another set of attacks in our cities, afterall we are the ones gave power to this deadly combination of anti-nationals supported by these ANTI-anything-good-for-India writers like this bitch.

My heart goes out to those brave soldiers who lost their lives in the process of saving the very symbol of our largest democracy. Now all of their lives was a complete waste, given the fact that the very Democracy has stalled the process of it's own judiciary for it's own divisive policies. The Nation could've benefitted a lot if any of those filthy garbages sitting inside in the then opposition benches were killed in that attack.
Theo van Gogh
Amsterdam, Netherlands
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
193
Guys, guys, its not the fault of Arundhati Roy. What can the poor woman do? India is, after all, still very much infested with Hindus. Just look around, who does not hate Hindus? Everybody who wields the pen, hates Hindus. Actually, I really have to praise Arundhati this time around. She has not said flat out that Hindus are the real enemies of India, and they should be killed en masse. Only then the people who are the paragon of virtue (guess who?) can sleep peacefully at night.
dcindia
Omaha, United States
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
192
"Pakistan 'out to enslave Afghans'
President Karzai hits out at Pakistan for continuing violence, accusing it of trying to turn Afghans into "slaves"


"Slavery" and "Genocide" were (are) the two most notable contributions of the Abrahamic religions, of US vs Them
Raj
Bowlingbrook, United States
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
191
>>recently i read that the ratio of soliders to >>civilians is 5 is to 1

I would advise that you should not believe every thing you read. I for instance read somewhere that Sonia Gandhi is a saint, or that there are choo-choo trains, that one guy founded a religion because allegedly God gave him dictation in his sleep. I had a good laugh.


Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Dec 14, 2006 12:00 AM
190
a reader says: "After all, this is the same woman who has called Indian Kashmir an "occupied territory"."

There is a row of shops run by kashmiris in a little town in andhra which I visited. I was chatting with them and one of the families was very much against their son going back to kashmir for a visit in the summer. Why - what are you afraid of? - I asked the mother. "the police have raids where they take all young men to the station, hang them upside down by their ankles, beat them, and then let most of them go the next day but keep beating a few others longer". OK, so this is an indian citizen. not guilty of having committed any crime.

recently i read that the ratio of soliders to civilians is 5 is to 1. that if a soldier shoots a civilian - the civilian does not have the right to sue or take them to court. blanket immunity for soldiers. sounds like what the american soldiers have in iraq.

if the shoe fits ...
Arul Francis
Clayton, California
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
189
After Shivraj Patil's statement today, it seems there are two separate issues:
1. Hanging of Afzal for his crimes - The decision of President should be out any time soon.
2. Failure by NDA to protect Parliament from such a heinous terrorist attack - NDA need to come out with a white paper on this issue.
meraj
Delhi, India
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
188
"Actually nine securitymen died. Five terrorists were killed."

Thanks for the correction. The lines are blurring between security men and terrorists. If Roy is to be believed, it is the security men who planned the attack and the terrorists who tried to prevent the attack. So got confused. Thanks for the correction.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
187
Ganesan,

>> The five policemen were stupid enough to fight for their country and die.

Actually nine securitymen died. Five terrorists were killed.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
186
Mr ghai,

>> Do you think in this age any body can be misled by you ,me or BJP or UPA ?

I was not talking about being "misled".

>> Things went out of hand when Govt said they will take seven years.

If the govt. said that, that would be very wrong.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
185
I dont know how more can the families be insulted. Patil's statement is the height of all-till now.

The biggest ninnyhammer of the govt is out of country and so Patil holds the record. Once he returns and makes an "erudite" statement in parliament, the award for "inflicting the maximum insult" will be taken away from Patil and given to Manmohan Singh. Poor Patil!

What would Manmohan say? That there are divisive elements in this country who want to hang Afsal because he is a muslim and are exploiting the families? That muslims get to make the first claim in the justice systems? That muslims get to decide whether a fellow muslim gets death or not?

I will not be surprised.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
184
Shivraj Patil has said that the families are being prodded by the BJP. That makes sense.

It is clear that the five policemen were stupid enough to take their duty seriously and die for the country. And the families are even more stupid in expecting that justice should be and will be done to their loved ones. So it is obvious that such a bunch of stupid people cannot think on their own. There must be an external evil minded scheming body which forces them to act in the way they did. And Suspect No1 is BJP.

What Patil said definitely makes sense.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
183
I dont want Dasmunsi to be "taken aback" anymore. So he are some news which I am breaking in the interest of keeping his heart safe(after all how many "taken abacks" can a heart take?

India is no longer under British rule. We have achieved independence(HooraY!!!). Nehru chacha has died. Indramma was killed(somebody hold Dasmunsi when he hears this). Rajiv Gandhi was brutally killed( is Dasmunsi still conscious?). There is a stupid party called BJP which ruled India for six years. India has exploded a nuclear bomb.

And finally, in 2006, there is a post in the central cabinet Parliamentary Affairs minister and some one by the name of PRDasmunsi is the minister as of 2006( this news would really take him back by a 1000 feet).
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
182
No Ganeshan -at that time Govt wanted to give the message that terror would be met with Iron Fist.
IT WAS THEN AND ITS IS NOW !
A K GHAI
MUMBAI, India
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
181
Hari
New York, United States
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
180
"For your information the Govt disposed of MERCY PETITION of Gen VAIDYA's Killers in less than 20 hrs"

But General Vaidya was not a muslim. SO naturally the value of his life is less than Afsal.

lets see how long it takes to dispose the petition of Santosh Singh. I am sure it wont even be entertained and he will be sent packing. But Afsal.......Ah! Thats different. You dont treat criminals and mahatmas in the same way.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
179
ANil Narlikar>>"No wonder such a devout Hindu as Arundhati Roy defends him so fiercely."

All, please note that Arundhati Roy is NOT A HINDU. Having read her continuous anti-India, anti-BJP, anti-Hindu non-stop nonsense, I tried to know more about her background. She is a Christian. Her full name is Suzanna Arundhati Roy. She has conveniently dropped 'suzanna' probably to boost her image in India among the majority. Also, btw, her winning the bookers prize was also not welcome by all. quote from wikipedia (with references) "The God of Small Things Debate In England, Channel 4's coverage of the Booker included a round-table debate by literary 'stars' Melvyn Bragg, A. S. Byatt, Will Self, and Carmen Callil. Callil (the previous year's chair of the Booker judges) pronounced The God of Small Things "an execrable book" which should never have reached the shortlist". She is not worthy of the hype she has generated and is a staunch anti-everything-Hindu. This, to the extent that she even had a factual error about the Gujrat carnage in one of her books/articles in which she blamed the BJP. She was forced to admit the error and later apologized. She has been convicted of contempt of the Supreme Court and for all the so-called social activities she does, she has been accused of building her house in a protected forest area.

All of you must check out wikipedia about her which lists all these details along with citations including general accusations of her anti-India bias.
Hari
New York, United States
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
178
Probably I should not be too harsh on Dasmunshi for not keeping up with the news. I understand he would have been busy. It does take a lot of time to wash the saris of Sonia Gandhi and to change diapers to her grandchild. That generally keeps the congressmen busy. So we cannot expect them to react to stupid news like the families returning medals. No wonder he was "taken aback".
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
177
This is from the report in Outlook regarding the return of medals.

"Taken aback by their gesture, Parliamentary Affairs Minister P R Dasmunsi said the government would talk to them and convince them that they should take back the medals. "

What is there to to be "taken aback"? This is public knowledge for atleast a week. The families had clearly spelt what they would do in the event of Afsal not hanged and have followed it to the letter. What was this guy doing in the past week? Sleeping?

"Taken aback". Absolute bullshit. "Govt would talk to them". Why did you not speak with them before? What prevented you from speaking them say on dec12, dec 11 ?

Probably the families dont get to make the first claim. Who cares about those unfortunate creatures? The five policemen were stupid enough to fight for their country and die. And the families are even dumber to think that their memories would be honoured and justice would be done.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
176
Mr.Faruki -families came on TV and said all in unision that they are returning medals as they feel insulted that Govt says that families are being misled by BJP !
Well they have felt insulted due to crude remarks by the UPA.Do you think in this age any body can be misled by you ,me or BJP or UPA ?People are more smart than you and me specially who have lost their near snd dear ones for NATIONAL CAUSE .
For your information the Govt disposed of MERCY PETITION of Gen VAIDYA's Killers in less than 20 hrs.Things went out of hand when Govt said they will take seven years.
Even now the statements being made by MINISTERS are patently insulting !
It was Ghulam Nabi Congressi C M who started the ball rolling by asking pardon for AFZAL !

A K GHAI
MUMBAI, India
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
175
Ganesan,

>> a practice vehemently followed in the muslim holyland. There was a furore recently when the Saudi govt destroyed places which had connections to the Prophet.

You are right. The Saudi/Wahabi practises are markedly different in this regard compared to what we do in India.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
174
I know a case in TN where a temple was built and is still there. The temple was built under power lines. By law, land under the power grid lines belongs to the govt and no one is supposed to build anything underneath. So this temple clearly violated the law. A case was filed and the court ordered the structure to be demolished. The guys from the govt came with bulldozers and all. Then suddenly the guys got cold feet. It was scary for them to destroy a Kali temple. They refused to do their jobs and none of them wanted to do it. So the temple still stands.

In most cases this is what happens. In some cases, the officials are bold enough to implement the law. And as soon as that happens, people cry about religious discrimination and all hell breaks loose.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
173
"All five attackers on the parliament are dead. Afzal's death sentence has been upheld by the SC."

Since the unfortunate creatures are dead, why bother about delivering justice to their families? The living saint's life is more important.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
172
" I don't know if any secular party has put that on their agenda. "

No. Secular parties do not have that kind of agenda. Their agenda is to make hindus third class citizens in their own country. Hindus do not get to make the first claims.

So the secular agenda is certainly different from the communal agenda.

And for the mosques being destroyed in Gujarat, they were removed for construction purposes-a practice vehemently followed in the muslim holyland. There was a furore recently when the Saudi govt destroyed places which had connections to the Prophet. And thats something even the Prophet would have approved-the same way he said no tomb should be built for him.

And I know cases where hindu temples have been destroyed or relocated for expansion of roads. In most cases what happens is this. People build the temples or mosques encroaching public land in the belief that govt would not touch them because it is a religious structure. But thats violating the law. I am all for destroying the structures built on public land violating the law.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
171
"...expressed shock over Union Home Minister Shivraj Patil's remarks that they were being provoked by the BJP over the Afzal row"

I wonder how many people believe that the BJP is not involved? While I feel for the families of the victims, trying to rush an execution while a petition for pardon is before the President is unwarranted. All five attackers on the parliament are dead. Afzal's death sentence has been upheld by the SC. So why such heavy pressure tactics to expedite a hanging? This thing is getting to be uglier and uglier.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
170
Chanakya says,

>> Let's then see how many "progressive, secular" parties would keep this off their agenda.

Well a mosque was demolished in Ayodhya, and dozens of dargahs were erased in the past four years in Ahmedabad and Vadodra. I don't know if any secular party has put that on their agenda. But you may be right. They are all the same.




Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
169
The families have returned their medals. And the govt, as can be expected, is not ashamed. The families should stick to their position and refuse to meet the govt till the swine Afsal is hanged. Anything should would be an insult to those brave men.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
168
JOSEPH:
"Mr. Satish, which world do you live in?. These things happen. Yes, they do. Please ask Mr. Raman?. Neither Ms Roy nor myself are very far from the real world. You and some your ilk live in a world of make believe."

Do you have any evidence/proofs to support your allegations that it was not Afjal but the Indian govenrment manipulated the attack on parliament? Or is it your wishful thinking? If you have any proofs, please send it to Ms. Arundhati Roy. She is fighting for this innocent guy! If you share your evidence, I am sure many more secularists in India will stand behind poor Afjal.

If you don't have any evidance, then you must believe in the judiciary. Afjal has been proved guilty in 3 different courts.

By the way, this is an internal matter of India. Outsiders need not interfere. Indians did not interfere in the trial of Daniel Pearl's murder or mass rape on Mukhtaran Mai or any trial related to honour killings in Pakistan. So please keep quiet.
Satish
Pune, India
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
167
Gelani was not from Delhi School (but that might be media manupulation by BJP).

Why is the "afzal Bachao" brigade not stating the obvious fact !! The parliament Attack did not happen. Its all a media manupulation.

These 5 (Or is there a 6) horsemen came to persuade the MPS to pass a legislation to help Hindus to "vote with their feet" as opposed to "by their hands".

NB; Its was interesting to note that Pakistan is a richer country than India, but still Hindus "voted with their feet" en-masse to leave Pakistan and came to India.
These ppl must be really stupid.
ANBanerjee
Newcastle, United Kingdom
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
166
Hinduism's greatest guru today is undoubtedly Afzal Gurujee. No wonder devout Hindus are making pilgrimmages to get his darshan and to prostrate before this avatar of the major gods......No wonder such a devout Hindu as Arundhati Roy defends him so fiercely. Hindus can only be grateful to be alive in the time of this Great Soul, Afazal Guru...He must nor only be released immediately from prison but provided with a fully-equipped math where he can train countless Hindus in the divine art of jehdism. Only then can India prove itself really and TRULY secuar...

Wah, wah, says my own favourite guru, Ghulam Faruki Gurujee......


Anil Narlikar
Pune, India
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
165
I am done, Mr. Vikas Ranjan. I am grateful to Sonikar for saying that Pakistan's economy is better than India's. I am confused why no one said liar to that.

I dispute her contention that Pakistan is all Agriculture and this why.

India
agriculture: 18.6%
industry: 27.6%
services: 53.8% (2005 est.)

Pakistan
agriculture: 21.6%
industry: 25.1%
services: 53.3% (2005 est.)

The largest sector in India and Pakistan is the Service sector with 53 per cent of their respective GDPs.

Like the allegation about terrorism, this is another myth that Pakistan is just another Agricultural Country.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
164
Bhairavi

What's your gripe against Arundhati Roy? Simply that she is such a fair-minded defender of Hinduism? Why can't you tolerate that? Ghulam Faruki does.
Anil Narlikar
Pune, India
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
163
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
162
".........Can there be any greater HUMILIATION INFLICTED ON WE THE PROUD PEOPLE OF INDIA THAT THE FAMILIES OF 'SAHIDS' HAVE THROWN BACK THE MEDALS ON OUR FACE ??..........."

Yes - there can be greater humiliation for the proud people of India if a person is hanged for a crime which he did not commit.

After 2 days of attack police claimed that delhi school professor geelani was mastermind - but he got acquitted due to the support of intelligensia.

Afzal clearly had no such support - hence this case should be relooked - in view of lots of discrepancies in the case as well as concoction of evidence.

In fact all those police officers who were guilty of taking forced confessions and manipulation should be first punished so that the faith on judiciary and Indian administration is restored.
#####:::::-NNNNN-:::::#####
Ranchi, India
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
161
Mr. Satish, which world do you live in?. These things happen. Yes, they do. Please ask Mr. Raman?. Neither Ms Roy nor myself are very far from the real world. You and some your ilk live in a world of make believe.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
160
JOSEPH:
"Secret Services of a Home Country are known to instigate events such as the attack on your Parliament to give the 'opposition' a bad name and create a pretext to whip it.
Russia is known to have done this and blamed the Chechens. Why should India be any different?."

This proves Joseph's Pakistani nationality. Musharraf and other Pakistani peace loving leaders put forward the same logic - All terrorist attacks in India till date have been arranged by India, RAW and its army and they are deliberately blaming a peace loving nation like Pakistan for this. Pakistan used the same logic for 9/11 attack that it has been managed by Bush. Arundhati Roy uses the same logic.

Aren't these people and this logic sick?
Satish
Pune, India
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
159
Mr. Satish, I feel Mr. Parthasarathy knows something that you do not. Secret Services of a Home Country are known to instigate events such as the attack on your Parliament to give the 'opposition' a bad name and create a pretext to whip it.

Russia is known to have done this and blamed the Chechens. Why should India be any different?. Please check with Kautilya?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
158
Mr. Satish, I feel Mr. Parthasarathy knows something that you do not. Secret Services of a Home Country are known to instigate events such as the attack on your Parliament to give the 'opposition' a bad name and create a pretext to whip it.

Russia is known to have done this and blamed the Chechens. Why should India be any different?. Please check with Kautilya?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
157
"Due to the extremely serious nature of the allegations against the former ruling party.."

Even I make a very serious allegation that Ms.Roy and others supporting the terrorist Afzal are funded by our enemy Pakistan to create enmity between communities in India.

When is Ms.Roys torture starting? Please do not stop till she confesses to the crime or dies in the process.
shankar
Mumbai, India
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
156
"no effort, including torture, should be spared to arrive at the truth..."

Hope the same rule of using Torture to get truth applies to Guru, Ms.Roy, and their supporters as well..

Incidentally Guru went back on his earlier confession saying it was obtained by force and this was played up by Ms.Roy and friends , to ask for clemency..Why not start the torture with Geelani first who was acquitted ?
shankar
Mumbai, India
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
155
PARTHASARATHY:
"Due to the extremely serious nature of the allegations against the former ruling party, the previous Home Minister and Prime Minister have to be interrogated to ascertain the real motive behind the 'Parliament attack'.

Keeping in mind that this 'attack' was reason for taking the country to the brink of nuclear war, no effort, including torture, should be spared to arrive at the truth."

I second this. The previous home and prime minister should be interrogated not only for the "Parliament Attack", but also for World War I and II, Pakistani attack on India in 1948/65/71/99, Chinese attack in 1962, all terrorists attacks in Punjab and elsewhere between 1980 and 1995, all terrorists attacks blamed on humble Pakistanis between 1990 till date etc. and many more.

Arundhati Roy has been successful in provoking at least one person - Parthasarathy, by her Gobels like campaign.
Satish
Pune, India
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
154
Read gratefull
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
153
Partha you mean Advani and Bajpai manipulated the attack on Parliament and they should be tortured to find the truth ?? Greatfull you please clarify your post !
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
152
Can there be any greater HUMILIATION INFLICTED ON WE THE PROUD PEOPLE OF INDIA THAT THE FAMILIES OF 'SAHIDS' HAVE THROWN BACK THE MEDALS ON OUR FACE ??
LET UPA GIVE THESE MEDALS TO THE PERSONS WHO ATATCKED THE PARLIAMENT ! ONE FOR ARUNADITI TOO !
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
151
Ghulam says "Look at their agenda : Ram Mandir, iftar parties in Haridwar, haj subsidies, opposing Sachar committee etc etc. If they had a truly secular and progrssive right-of-center agenda, I would join them myself."

Alright, let's have a party where we will serve pork in a mosque. Let's then see how many "progressive, secular" parties would keep this off their agenda.
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
150
Today's Breaking News:

Demanding Mohd Afzal's execution, families of the securitymen who died in the 2001 Parliament terror attack today returned the gallantry medals they had received in honour of the slain personnel to the Rashtrapati Bhavan as a mark of protest over the delay in carrying out the sentence.

Accompanied by All India Anti-Terrorist Front (AIATF) chief M S Bitta on the fifth anniversary of the attack, they also expressed shock over Union Home Minister Shivraj Patil's remarks that they were being provoked by the BJP over the Afzal row.

"We did not order execution of Afzal. It's the court that has ordered it. But this vile politics over his death sentence, which is being delayed, has led us to return these medals," Ganga Devi, widow of sub-inspector Nanak Chand, told reporters after emerging out of the presidential palace.

They met the media holding a placard that contained photographs of all the slain security personnel.

The families of the slain securitymen returned the medals to an official at the Rashtrapati Bhavan, saying they should be placed in the National Museum until Afzal, who has been convicted in the case, is executed.

"We will take back these medals after Afzal is hanged," Jayawati, widow of head-constable Vijender Singh, said after returning the medal to a Rashtrapati Bhavan director.

The families rejected Patil's remarks in Parliament about them, which they said have left them sad and shocked.

"He (Patil) is wrong. His remarks are painful. Our only support is Bitta. We are not going to raise our voice from any political platform," Jagmal Singh, father-in-law of Vijender Singh, said.

The families also ruled out accepting honours from any political parties in the wake of the BJP's plans in this regard.

Nine securitymen were killed in the attack on Parliament on December 13, 2001.

In their joint memorandum to President A P J Abdul Kalam, with whom Afzal's mercy petition is pending, the families of the slain securitymen said they regard the gallantry medals a "humiliation" in the light of the delay in the execution of the death-row convict.

"A pardon means making a mockery of the brave soldiers and civilians who laid down their precious lives while performing their duty for the nation.

"Hence we have decided to return the medals to the government given to our near and dear ones, which now seem to us like humiliation piled on us," the memorandum said.

It was signed by ten people, including widows of two CPWD men and of a TV journalist who were killed in the attack."


The worst fears are coming true. Shivraj Patil will sit on the mercy petition forever without sending any recommendation (against or for) on the mercy petition. Afjal will live his full life and die a natural death. He could be released if his friends hijack another plane and demand his release.

It is extremely shameful for Shivraj Patil that along with other MPs his life was also saved by these security personnel. But instead of remembering their sacrifices, he is playing petty votebank politics.

Not sure when will India get freedom from such politicians and Congress!

Satish
Pune, India
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
149
SATISH WROTE:

>providing religion based reservations,

Reservations started on the basis of discrimination started by Hindu cast system. So what is the harm to extend this to other religions. I have heard many times BJP leaders saying that granting reservations to muslims will result in another partition of the country. How? The best thing would be to give reservations to all the sections of the society. 50% of the reservations can be didivded among all sections of the scoiety and 50% left for open competition. Hopefully BJP etal also will not have any problem with it.

>>providing subsidies for religious reasons to a particular community,

This is just an old raga. Even BJP Govt had filed an explanation to the Supreme court for providing the Hajj subsidy. If secular Govt is not supposed to provide any help for religious ceremonies then all the help extend by the Govt at national and state levels to Melas & Yatras should be withdrawn. Otherwise Muslims can be blamed for having their holy places outside India??

AbdulHaq
Hyderabad, India
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
148
Satish,

>> So what do you expect from BJP?

a program that appeals to all sections of society.

>> can you identify which parties in India are secular and which are communal?

If one of the major parties is geared to appeal to the majority community, the minorities will flock to the other major party. Soon charges of appeasement and vote banks will fly in yhe air. Secularism then becomes academic.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
147
Either kill this person and ask the nation to bear the weight of the state action on their conscience. Or pardon him and show political pragmatism and reasonableness. It is high time to stem the development of another parallel economy by a bunch of opportunists through book publishing, speechifying and hawking of opinions based on a person's life and possible misdeeds. I think in a poor country such as India the passions of many can be better spent at much more important issues.
Akhil
Chicago, United States
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
146
GHULAM:
"Look at their agenda : Ram Mandir, iftar parties in Haridwar, haj subsidies, opposing Sachar committee etc etc. If they had a truly secular and progrssive right-of-center agenda, I would join them myself."

So what do you expect from BJP? Do you expect BJP not to oppose iftar parties in Haridwar, muslim pampering haj subsidies, divisive Sachar committee recommendations, communal statements by Manmohan etc. and prove itself to be a TRUE SECULAR party like Congress?

>>> If they had a truly secular and progrssive right-of-center agenda, I would join them myself.

What is your idea of a secular party? Do you think that opposing appeasement of a particular community, providing religion based reservations, providing subsidies for religious reasons to a particular community, revoking laws because criminals from a particular community are being caught under it etc. are non-secular?

Can you define a secularism and communalism? Based on your definition can you identify which parties in India are secular and which are communal?
Satish
Pune, India
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
145
Bairavi says,

>> If questioning the mindless minority appeasement is communal, then BJP should not be hesitant to be called communal.

Those policies, plus belonging in the same "communal" family as the RSS, Bajrang Dal and VHP.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
144
" I did not check on every ghetto in my neighbourhoods when i grew up, but i can tell that most of these Muslims are into business"

Thats a very interesting point. There is a small town called Kayalpattinam near Tuticorin in Tamil Nadu. The town is full of muslims and is very rich. I attended a school nearby and the muslim students who came from that town were all extremely wealthy. The town is surrounded by other small villages which are predominantly hindu and the students came from average families.

The muslims of kayalpattinam were mostly businessmen. There were a lot of muslims in the school and none of the parents had a job. They were in business in form or other.

So what you say is an interesting point.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
143
>>"And BTW, my theory. Muslims are infinitely rich but pretend to be poor because they want to blame the BJP"

lmao .I agree
kk lol
cal, India
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
142
I dont know why people are surprised when Roy claims the parliament attack to be an inside job. It is the standard template of the liberals. George Bush organised 911. Godhra victims committed mass harakiri(confirmed by one loopy judge!!). And now this. These people cannot even think something new. They use the same template one million times.

We have the liberals "saviour" Ahmedinajad claiming holocaust never happened. Thats a small variation. I thought he would say the jews defiled and killed themselves to bring bad name to the Germans. That would have been interesting.

And BTW, my theory. Muslims are infinitely rich but pretend to be poor because they want to blame the BJP. Muslims, in collusion with congress, are playing this game in order to bring a bad name to BJP and tarnish India's image. Muslim poverty is an "inside job". Its all politics.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
141
In a vibrant and flawed democracy like India, we do need a healthy and vigorous debate on all matters of national interest and security. To that end, one cannot not fault Ms. Roy for instigating such a tete-a-tete. But her motives here appear to be suspect.

Two of her thirteen questions are definitely valid and warrant a response. However, remaining eleven did not make sense. Until, I realized that the basic thesis of her rambling was that the Indian security forces staged this Parliament outrage -- like the Nazis burned the Reichstag and then used it to supress the communists and other ideological enemies. Stated simply, India wanted a reason to instigate a war with Pakistan and, to abet that, engineered this horrific incident. Very interesting indeed! While Indians always knew it, Pakistan's current role in international Pan-Islamic fascism/terrorism has now been acknowledged even by its arch financiers -- namely the Bushies in this country. Given all that, it is amusing to see Roy's natural penchant to gloss over Pakistan's (read: ISI's) stated goal of creating mayhem to achieve their religious goals, and instead weave fantastic theories about villainy of Indian security apparatus and its political bosses. I guess we should not be surprised. After all, this is the same woman who has called Indian Kashmir an "occupied territory". If Ms. Roy had a reputation of being even handed in her analysis of events, one might be tempted to consider her point of view seriously. However, she has consistently championed anything that is Anti-India and hence, loses all credibility with this bad boy. I think the diatribe is a cheap and transparent attempt to boost the book sales and nothing more. Hope one day she is unmasked as a fraud and a demagogue who never tires of milking her Booker. Shame! When will Outlook realize it is being used by this media savvy anti-national 'agent provocateur'?
amit sinha
Pittsboro, USA
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
140
Why do you bring this Arundhati person into the news area?Has she not done enough damage in other areas?
Sarala Bhagavatula
Machilipatnam, India
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
139
Ghulam says:
I did not call the BJP "wrong". I called them "communal".I did not call the BJP "wrong". I called them "communal".

If questioning the mindless minority appeasement is communal, then BJP should not be hesitant to be called communal. May be congress for you is secular; as secular as Muslim League.

Bairavi
Bairavi
Delhi, India
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
138
PARTHASARATHY SAYS:
>>>>> It is religious fanaticism which similarly motivated Hitler and recently Bush (who 'discovered' WMD to invade Iraq ).

You idiot it is not religious fanaticism that motivated Hitler but the ethno-nationalism that forced him to undertake what he did. There was less religious dimension to ethno-nationalism you idiot. If it was his fanaticism, he would not have invaded the catholic neighbours. Why on earth do you come on here to discuss issues which you are neither familiar with nor aware of.

As for Bush, it is again not religion that made him to target Saddam. If it was religion, he would have targetted Saudi Arabia, Iran and Somalia and not Iraq. If you want to be wise and be counted in a discussion forum, stop reading the junk materials (like The Hindu, Frontline, and Communalism Combat materials).

>>>>> Arundhati Roy has once again proved a terrific writer. One whos writing is as incisive as her intellect.

Well, for your single digit IQ, anything in english would definitely be incisive and intellect. It only shows that you never moved out of Madras or read any serious literature in english.

Bairavi
Bairavi
Delhi, India
Dec 13, 2006 12:00 AM
137
Five years after the attacks, the families of the policemen have threatened to return the medals if justice is not return. I say, why "return"? Throw it on the face. What worth is the medal when the memories of those brave men tarnished? No one thinks there lives were worth anything. If people had thought so, we wont be having this shameful debate about whether or not to hang Afsal.

I would urge the family members to get an appointment to meet the PM and without saying a word, leave all the medals there and turn back. There is no need to speak to that idiot anyways. And if the idiot refuses to meet them, throw the medals into his house from outside.

But the family members wont do it. From the accounts I have read, they appear to be a bunch of decent human beings. So I dont expect them to behave churlishly(I would if I am in that position). Thats one more reason why this whole thing makes me angry. What are we doing to those decent people-other than spitting on their face?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
136
'I was not talking of right or wrong.'
You have been continously making generalised statements.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
135
'Someday that will be the case.'
Yeah sure, jsut like reseravations were supposed to have ceased some day.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
134
Eevry party is diabolical.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
133
Every party in India is communal.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
132
>> both COngress and the BJP are right in their own way.

I did not call the BJP "wrong". I called them "communal".

>> I believe it should be the economic criteria that should decide the handouts, and not religion or caste.

Someday that will be the case.

>> That does not mean that parties you do not support do what you think is right.

I was not talking of right or wrong.

Anyway I must go.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
131
'I decide what party I will support'
That does not mean that parties you do not support do what you think is right.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
130
>> And by the way who are you to decide on what policies a party in India should follow?

I decide what party I will support.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
129
I believe it should be the economic criteria that should decide the handouts, and not religion or caste.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
128
Oh yeah.
'SP hosted the partiy. The BJP made a political issue out of it. '
Did BJP break any law? Is not Congress making political issues out of minorities? Does that mean they should stop as well?
India is a democracy so both COngress and the BJP are right in their own way.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
127
'had a truly secular and progrssive right-of-center agenda'
Secularism does not mean bias towards a particular religion.
Does that mean 'a truly secular and progrssive right-of-center agenda' si what BJP should stick to? And by the way who are you to decide on what policies a party in India should follow?
In a democracy a party has the freedom to decide on its policies. Neither you nor i can tell them what to do. Unless we are dictators.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
126
>> Are you serious mate? that was SP not BJP

SP hosted the partiy. The BJP made a political issue out of it.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
125
'Words are cheap.'
Exaaaactly.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
124
'iftar parties in Haridwar'
Are you serious mate? that was SP not BJP.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
123
>> UCC is not a rocket science

Words are cheap.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
122
>> And i did not expect "They (BJP) are not diabolical, just communal" from you as well.

Look at their agenda : Ram Mandir, iftar parties in Haridwar, haj subsidies, opposing Sachar committee etc etc. If they had a truly secular and progrssive right-of-center agenda, I would join them myself.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
121
UCC is not a rocket science. Unless you believe that the 'so called legal experts' have spoken the last on it.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
120
Why not?
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
119
>> Outlook is not a reputed journal

Do you know any a legal expert willing to formulate a UCC?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
118
>> So why bring other Indians into it then?

I don't know what you mean?

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
117
You can't call an Indian political party like that.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
116
And i did not expect
"They (BJP) are not diabolical, just communal"
from you as well.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
115
>> In that case the so called legal experts are 'ignorant buffoons'

I did not expect that from you.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
114
'Muslims do have a lot of work to do on education aa well as on work ethics '

So why bring other Indians into it then?
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
113
faruki,
Outlook is not a reputed journal and the articles in Outlook are never peer reviewed. So One can therefore conclude with enough confidence that the articles are biased.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
112
>> Muslims had the highest male unemployment rate in Great Britain

Muslims do have a lot of work to do on education aa well as on work ethics
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
111
'See the OUTLOOK articls on the subject written by legal experts last year. '

'"They (BJP) are not diabolical, just communal"

In that case the so called legal experts are 'ignorant buffoons'.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
110
And

http://www.statistics.g...k/cci/nugget.asp?id=963

In 2004 a third (33 per cent) of Muslims of working age in Great Britain had no qualifications –
....
This is in acountry where primary and secondary eduaction is free.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
109
>> And why have not they been successful?

See the OUTLOOK articls on the subject written by legal experts last year.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
108
Faruki,

http://www.statistics.g...k/cci/nugget.asp?id=979

...
In 2004, Muslims had the highest male unemployment rate in Great Britain, at 13 per cent. This was about three times the rate for Christian men (4 per cent). Unemployment rates for men in the other religious groups were between 3 and 8 per cent.
......
Mind you this is in a country like UK where you can't say that they have been discrimnated against. Had they been, the figure for other religious minorities would have been the same.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
107
>> If you make a statement, cite some sources.

These statement have been cited and referenced several times before.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
106
"They (BJP) are not diabolical, just communal"

THIS IS THE GOEBBELIAN PROPAGADA BY THE ISLAMIC "SECULAR" FASCISTS.

Please explain what does this "COMMUNAL" mean?
1. Does uniting India under the Hindu flag communal? Why? Don't the Hindus deserve their own homeland when Moslems have over 50? Some stolen from India?

2. Is putting down to terrorist fascism in Kashmir communal? Kashmir musat be made a Moslem minority at any cost-unless the pundirs are given back their homes and compensated in billons of dollars for the pillage and massacres

3. Why separate laws for Moslems? If they want separate civil laws then they must follow a one-child policy

4. Congress-left combine had failed miserably-in alleviating poverty-the mass murder

5. People who once had doubts about BJP and RSS will start joining them since these anti-nationalist rascals never stop attacking them.
Raj
Bowlingbrook, United States
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
105
Dear Ms. Arundhati,

Could you pl. look into the plights of Kashmiri Hindus and the injustice done to them? You are such a pationate orator and observer for all minority sufferings how come you left out these people, they are minority in Kashmir. You have been huffing and puffing about Kashmir problems how come these people never got any attention from you. do you think they donot deserve your sympahy or attention? Pl. be fair if not logical.

Thanks!

RV
Minneapolis, USA
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
104
Faruki wrote,
' The Personal Laws are different for different religions. Attempts by legal scholars to come up with a model Unified Civic Code have not so far been successful.'
And why have not they been successful? Is it because you say so. Or do you mean to say that no country in the world has uniform civil code?
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
103
Faruki wrote -
'2) In Gujarat, a greater percentage of Muslims were in government employment compared to WB or Bihar long before the BJP came to power there.'
'The fact is that Indian Muslims are behind in reforms in personal law than Muslims in many other countries, even Iran and Pakistan. That might suggest that the BJP harping has not helped. '
Don't pull out stuff out of your musharraf. If you make a statement, cite some sources.

Rajeev
Delhi, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
102
How come I have never read anything from Arundhati about the innocent people that got killed by these terrorists or about other terrorist attacks? It is fashionable to defend the accused belonging to minority religious group?
RV
Minneapolis, USA
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
101
"the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pundits-"

In their own land, by this congenitally bigoted minority!
Let there be FACTUAL information on Islamic massacres and holocausts in India starting from the Sindh genocide in 712. Please compile credible sources-then commissioning a TEAM to chronicle ALL details of Islamic holocausts in India. Then setting up of the Holocaust Museums-one in Nalanda, at least one in Gujarat (somanath Temple), one in Delhi and replicas in every hamlet, village and town.

Only then these clowns will open their eyes and SEE what's going to happen, near future
Raj
Bowlingbrook, United States
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
100
"Sigh!) Ghulam bhai, I really can’t argue with a person like you... you simply refuse to see the most obvious. I had this notion that liberal Muslims realize the truth but are afraid of speaking but no, just like an ordinary Muslim, you simply are not capable of logical thinking." Kiran Bagachi

While silently supporting the Islamic RISE in India through terrorism and demographics and by DOGMATICALLY supporting the Quranic Constitution that commands to "Slay the Infidels" with its tribalism, our "friends"
simultaneously drown out voices, with their Goebbelian propaganda, that call for survival of India's heritage in its land of birth. They call this INDIC BIRTH RIGHT as bigotry and hatred!

There was radio silence when the Moslem street was ceberationg the 9/11 and other massacres and eulogizing Osama as the LAST prophet while always ingeniously PREVENTING any debate on Islamic Holocausts in India.

Kiran, Chaitanys, Ganesan, et al: Please focus on getting FACTUAL information on Islamic holocausts in India, starting with the Sindh massacre in 712-Nalanda Massacre of 1199- of Nadir Shah, Aurangazeb, Ghazni, Ghori and countless other criminals, Of destruction of the Somanath and thousands of other temples and Stupas. We MUST build Holocaust Museums at Nalanda and other places and several replicas in every village, hamlet and town. Only this INFORMATION as a constant reminder will AWAKEN the Indians from their in-born amnesia, spinelessness and shamelessness, hopefully.



Raj
Bowlingbrook, United States
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
99

Ans to Q 9. Very simple... security forces cannot tag a person at all the places. now say, he goes to mosque to pray. he meets the militants there. what can the security guys do? Like i said earlier, guru needed to be successful only once to achieve what he had set out to acheive. Security forces had to be on guard all the times. Which they were not.

Ans to Q no 10. What better person than Guru to carry out the operation? Security forces would not even suspect that a guy whom they have kept under surveillance 24 hours could be a part of a conspiracy this large... ideal scenario for terrorist!!!

Ans to Q 11.Tariq, Mohammad if they have escaped it is bad. But in what way it will prove that Guru is not guilty? Like this Chor says to police I had an accomplice by name Arundhati Roy. She escapes to Saudi and never returns back. But Chor is a Chor.. right????

Ans to Q 12. This is the reason why terroists must be encountered the moment they are captured. who knows? he might have been let off by the police as a part of some secret bargain... remember Kandahar hijack? Had we finished of this guy when he was arrested, the hijack would never have happened!!!

Ans to Q 13. This must be the most stupid question of the lot... like she was saving the best for the last!!!! Pakistan has a population of some 30-40 crores. Is it possible for the Indian Security forces to know everyone? Anybody might have come into the country and carried out the attack.
fairsystem
Bangalore, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
98
Ans to Q1: Nobody can be prepared all the times no matter what. This is the reason why terrorists succeed. Take the example of any country around the world, US.. UK..Spain... targets of terror attack since 9/11. All that it requires for a terrorist is to succeed ONCE, while security forces have to remain on the vigil ALWAYS. If this dumb woman thinks that just because there was a threat perception and heightened security, an incident like this cannot happen, she is what i said earlier.

Ans to Q2. You dont need to be Einstein to say something like this can happen only with meticulous planning. I mean, it cant be that suddenly a bunch of people come together and decide " Chalo aaj parliament pe bomb phekte hain" and they get going!!!! What evidence you need to say something as elementary as this???

Ans to Q3. When the attack happened Congress was in oppostion and they could demand whatever they wanted to. If PR Das Munshi says there were six guys and the closed circuit camera shot 6 guys... now congress is in power. Why they didnt deem it fit to rely on the CCTV footage. I mean Supreme Court would have definitely considered all these facts before they pass judgement, right? It is not that some dumb guys are sitting over there. And Roy says " If Das Munshi is to be believed" Arrey yaar, is he some kind of Gandhi Born Again to be believed for whatever he says? He was in opposition at that point of time and that too a congressi... he can shoot his mouth off and why should we believe him???

Ans to Q4. Nothing can be more dumber than this question.. doesnt even merit attention.

Ans to Q 5. As questions progress, calibre of this writer becomes more evident. If there is an attack on the indian soil, i am sure Chinese or Saudis would not have done it. The obvious suspects would be either Bangladesh or Pakistan. B`desh still has a long way to go to do something like this. So does it require years of research to arrive at this conclusion???

Ans to Q 6. How does it matter? Pakis have been our traditional enemies and if military build up was happening,i am sure no one at that point of time had any ulterior motive... Again a bird brained question!!!

Ans to Q 7.Each year, in our budget the largest allocation goes to military. It is very much essential that we protect ourselves from external attacks. So it is immaterial and irrelevant to ask this question in this context. If at all Ms. One Book Wonder had to ask a question, she could have asked how much the islamic insurgency costed India in terms of lives lost in Kashmir, amount spent on upkeep of security there, the number of people displace, the effect it had on tourism and economy as a whole.. but then these are questions which require a bit of intelligence to ask.. right?

Ans to Q8. Why does she think that police or security agencies should reveal everything they know to these kind of traitors?? They told what was required to the courts. Courts had an option to believe in the evidence or not. If the courts can reject the confession of Guru as being taken under torture, they are equally competent to judge the other evidence police presented before them.
fairsystem
Bangalore, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
97
SATISH-any relation between PRD MUNSHI and SHAYAN MUNSHI ? Shayan is confirmed lier in Jessica Lal Murder case.Why can't PRD tell a lie ??Why you want to deny a politician his birth right too tell the lies ? I suspect sixth person could be ARUNADITI who else will defend Afazal with such a zeal?
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
96
P.R. Das Munshi says he "counted six men getting out...the CCTV clearly showed six. Only five were killed. " Why did the police say there were only five? Who was the sixth?

One of them lying - either PRD Munshi or police? Why should Arundhati Roy choose to believe PRD Munshi? Why not believe police? What is the guarantee that PRD Munshi is not lying? Afterall he is in politics where talking truth is a sin. Or may be PRD Munshi was the sixth man.
Satish
Pune, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
95
"P.R. Das Munshi says he "counted six men getting out...the CCTV clearly showed six. Only five were killed. " Why did the police say there were only five? Who was the sixth?"

This proves beyond doubt that Afjal is innocent. In fact, he is a Mahatma. You cannot question what PRD Munshi is saying. Actually, the car that the terrorists used in the parliament, first went close to PRD Munshi, then they asked him to count the no. of people in the car. That is why he knows the exact number of people in the car. Over and above, he is one of the most loyal confident of Sonia. He cannot lie.

I demand Afjal should be released with immediate effect and employed as a security guard inside the parliament campus so that no innocent will be made scapegoat in such future attacks.
Satish
Pune, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
94
“They (BJP) are not diabolical, just communal.”

(Sigh!) Ghulam bhai, I really can’t argue with a person like you... you simply refuse to see the most obvious. I had this notion that liberal Muslims realize the truth but are afraid of speaking but no, just like an ordinary Muslim, you simply are not capable of logical thinking.
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
93
Al,

Sleep well!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
92
Ghulam
>>"In Gujarat, a greater percentage of Muslims were in government employment compared to WB or Bihar long before the BJP came to power there."

do you have any source to back up your claim?
kk lol
cal, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
91
If Sachar Commitee Report is such a milestone in MUSLIM EFFERMATION-then why Congress is feeling shy of discussing it in Parliament ?? BJP and LEFT are pressing for discussion !! CONGRESS SHOULD LET THE RESPECTIVE PARTIES TAKE A STAND WHATEVER IT MAY BE DURING DISCUSSION.
WHY TO DELAY ?
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
90
>> They are not diabolical, just communal

Maybe the lefties and Congress are just diabolical.

Guess, we won't go anywhere with this discussion. I have always respected your reasonable arguments and calm responses in the face of some very hostile comments. Obviously our perceptions on BJP, Congress and their policies are quite different. Beyond a point, we shall just be repeating the same arguments. Let's end this discussion here. I'm sure there shall be lot more threads, where we can continue.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
89
Faruki and Vikas-what matters is State Govt's initiatives in uplifting minorities.If Govt is alive to its duties then they will formulate policies for welfare of minorities and majority too. All state Govts are guilty of doing nothing for the AAM ADMI.Communists are not the exception !
Further wherever any community has fared well it is due to its own initiatives such as in education, conducting community awareness social programes etc.Muslims have fared better in Gujrat as Gujrati Muslims had realised in fifties that- NO eduction NO progeress.
For some time in Gujrat too Muslims showed more inclination for Dogmatic Religeous Majlises \Sammelans neglecting liberal education.Luckily they are back to educational path.
In UP annd other Muslim dominated states stiil the clergy has hold and clergy is anti liberal education.
Muslims have to break the hold of clergy and go for modern education.
POLITICIANS HAVE NOT DONE ANY THING FOR ANY BODY AND THEY WILL NOT DO TOO. IT IS FOR THE AAM ADMI TO GO FOR LIBERAL EDUCATION !
Whenever Govt expresses some interestMINORITY UPLIFT it is due to impending ELECTIONS.ONCE AAM ADMI SENDS A STRONG MESSAGE TO GOVT THAT- ACT- TIME FOR PROMISES IS OVER -the Politicians will be compelled to act.SO LONG VOTERS ARE DIVIDED ON BASIS OF CAST,CREED,COMMUNITY- FORGET ANY EFFERMATION.
POLITICANS ARE NOT FOOLS WE ARE FOOLS WHO DON'T KNOW THE VALUE OF OUR UNITED VOTE.
Let Hindus and Muslims stand together and ask for our rights -WE WILL GET ! TILL THEN GO ON CRYING-NOTHING WILL HAPPEN !
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
88
GHULAM FARUKI
"If you or I were in politics, would we think that way? Why then should we think that others are more diabolical than we are? "

If Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot could come to politics and preside over the annihilation of millions go prerpetuate their hold on power I do not see why our Laloos and Jyoti Basus be any different.
And perhaps that is why you and me are not in politics.
vikas ranjan
gurgaon, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
87
>> Does this hold for BJP too?

They are not diabolical, just communal.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
86
>> If you or I were in politics, would we think that way?

Maybe. Perhaps that is why we are not in politics :-)

>> Why then should we think that others are more diabolical than we are?

Does this hold for BJP too?
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
85
>> Shifting goal posts again?? if this is true, then stop blaming BJP for muslim backwardness, unless you are suggesting that a BJP in power has proved better for muslims than a BJP out of power.

What goalposts have you been referring to. I do not think the Sachar Committee report makes any distinction between Congress and the BJP. And I do not know what Sonia was referring to. In any case her goal posts are hers, not mine.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
84
>> Like any other document, it has to adapt with time.

Yes.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
83
>> perhaps some parties have realized that poor and deprived communities shall continue to vote for them

If you or I were in politics, would we think that way? Why then should we think that others are more diabolical than we are?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
82
>> I don't know either. Perhaps what political party is in power in a state is a much smaller factor than we think.

Or perhaps some parties have realized that poor and deprived communities shall continue to vote for them, as long as they play messiah by providing meaningless sops like personal laws and Haj subsidies, and are able to divert attention from their non-performance by raising the bogey of a Frankenstein (Sangh Parivar)
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM
81
"Perhaps what political party is in power in a state is a much smaller factor than we think."

Shifting goal posts again?? if this is true, then stop blaming BJP for muslim backwardness, unless you are suggesting that a BJP in power has proved better for muslims than a BJP out of power.
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Dec 12, 2006 12:00 AM