Sachar Report
Meet The Deputy, Sharif
The man behind the Sachar report has feisty views: no quota, higher credit
interview
The man who actually authored the most comprehensive report on the status of Muslims in India...
Ever since some aspects of the Sachar Committee report on the status of Muslims have become public, a heated debate has begun about giving reservation to a community that appears to be falling backward in every socio-economic indicator. But the great irony is that the economist who is the real author of the 394-page report is strongly opposed to reservation. "It is nothing more than a political gimmick," he told Outlook.
 
 
"Most of the exclusive TV reports on Sachar findings are old papers rehashed as breaking news," says Sharif.
 
 
According to him, reservation will do nothing to address the root causes of the problems that are alienating Muslims from the mainstream (see interview).

Although the report goes under the name of retired judge Rajindar Sachar, the man who put the formidable data together, conducted interviews, workshops and finally collated and wrote the report is the NCAER's chief economist, Dr Abusaleh Sharif. He is the one who produced the first India Human Development Report in 1999 and heads the human development division of the NCAER. Besides, Dr Sharif is managing the India programme of research in Human Development 2003-2007, a four-year study involving a sample survey of 40,000 households. Perhaps that is why even parties like the BJP who are opposed to any schemes for Muslims are not disputing the data and analysis of the Sachar report because they know it would be accurate.

In a nation where commissions sit for decades before coming up with luke-warm findings, the speed with which the Sachar report has been completed speaks of professionalism. On April 9, 2005, Sharif was appointed member secretary to the PM's high-level committee to prepare a report on the social, economic and educational status of the Muslim community in India. During the course of the year, census and NSO data were analysed, surveys commissioned, information accessed from the states, several seminars organised where activists, educationists and bureaucrats put forth their perspectives. Such activity was not limited to Delhi. The committee held several brainstorming sessions across states too. It was an intensive and thorough exercise. Now, in little over a year, the report has been signed, sealed and delivered to the PM.

Manmohan Singh's media advisor Dr Sanjaya Baru says the "PM had felt the lack of authentic, updated data about the Muslim community. Such data is necessary to plan and target schemes". He says the report will be tabled in the ongoing session of Parliament. Defence minister A.K. Antony is likely to table it. Dr Sharif says currently only half a dozen copies of the report are in circulation though over a thousand are being printed. "Most of the so-called exclusive reports on TV channels about the Sachar findings are just rehashed old papers and old information being mis-represented as breaking news," he says.

Besides the primacy of education, Sharif says access to credit is the key to Muslim development as the community is largely self-employed. Through other sources in government, Outlook has accessed some exclusive information about the credit situation vis-a-vis Muslims. To quote from the report: "The RBI found lack of thrust for increasing the credit flow to the minority community in leading banks. No officers were designated to cater to Muslims." The report also criticises the Small Industries Development Bank of India, headquartered in Lucknow, a state where a large number of Muslims are artisans, skilled workers and run small home industries. Yet, the Sachar report notes that Muslims suffer from a "double disadvantage". First, a "significantly small percentage" of loans are sanctioned to them and then the sanctioned amounts are one-third of that sanctioned to other communities.

Other findings of the committee: Wherever there is a large Muslim population, there are far less government schools. More than a 1,000 Muslim concentration villages in West Bengal and Bihar have no educational institutions. In Uttar Pradesh, the figure is 1,943.

More than 16 per cent of villages without medical facilities are in Muslim areas. 'Non-Muslim' areas get better state-run medical facilities. Besides, Muslims get less access to electricity than the all-India average. This means the greater the number of Muslims, the more likely they live in darkness.

Yet, there is some good news. Infant and child mortality among Muslims is less than the national average. More significantly, there is hardly any instance of female foeticide in the community. But this is no thanks to the government. Rather, the community that breaks bread together with fewer taboos than caste-divided Hindu society looks out for each other in the ghettoes where they are increasingly pushed into. Dr Sharif says quite bluntly: "No government scheme has helped Muslims. Zilch." With a note of sarcasm, he adds, "But they seem to be very enthusiastic about making Muslims swallow polio drops."

Sharif offers another remarkable fact. His data shows that whatever be their level of education, Muslim labour is more productive than the national average. In short, there are positives around which a regeneration can be built.

interview
The man who actually authored the most comprehensive report on the status of Muslims in India...
 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Dec 02, 2006 12:00 AM
100
>> they are in a very long and very old Q.

What a wonderful reply!!!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 02, 2006 12:00 AM
99
Bottom Line..

If the Muslims in Gujarat are looking for a shelter from Government, after riots, they are in a very long and very old Q which is atleast
3,50,000 people long and 17 years Old ..Rude as it may sound , Now they should wait for their turn , just as Kashmiri pandits are waiting for decades.. As a Kashmiri Pandit is as much an Indian citizen as a Gujarati Muslim is.

BTW..was there any delegation of communist MPs anytime in last 17 years to study the living conditions of refugee pandits?
shankar
Mumbai, India
Dec 01, 2006 12:00 AM
98
""We still live in room without walls" (Gujarat riot victims of 2002).

More than 3,50,000 Kashmiri Pandits are still living as refugees in Delhi , Jamu and other parts of India, 17 years after they were driven our of their houses by Islamic Terrorists.


http://www.kashmiri-pan...g/atrocities/index.html


Atrocities on Women and Children:

Case No.: 2
Date: 17.3.90
Place: Takoora, Srinagar
Mrs. M. N. Paul, wife of a BSF Inspector, was abducted. She was tortured and gang raped for many days and then her dead body with broken limbs was abandoned on the road.
Case No.: 3
Date: 19.4.90
Place: Hazratbal, Srinagar
A Hindu girl, Sarla Bhat R/O Anantnag and working as a nurse in the Medical Institute at Soura, Srinagar, was abducted from the Medical Institute. She was gang raped for many days and her body was later abandoned on the road side. Miss Sarla Bhatt, a Stuff Nurse in Sher-e-Kashmir Institute of Medical Sciences, Srinagar was kidnapped from the Hostel of the Institute on April 14, 1990, by a group of JKLF militants. Her dead body with bullet wounds was later found on April 19, in the downtown area of Srinagar. The post mortem report concluded that she was raped before she was killed.Case No.: 4
Date: 22.4.90
Place: Srinagar
Sushma Pandit was abducted from the roadside by the terrorists. She was released the next day with bullet wounds on her legs. Case No.: 6
Date: 4.6.90
Place: Sopore, Baramulla
Prana Ganjoo was abducted along with her husband Prof. K. L. Ganjoo. She was gang raped for a number of days and then her body was thrown in the river bed. Her husband too was killed.
Case No.: 7
Date: 4.6.90
Place: Trehgam, Kupwara
Girja Tikoo working as a Laboratory Assistant at Government Girls High School, Trehgam, was abducted, gang raped for many days and shred into pieces on a bar and saw mill


http://www.kashmiri-pan...cities/atrocities1.html



shankar
Mumbai, India
Dec 01, 2006 12:00 AM
97
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 01, 2006 12:00 AM
96
"We still live in room without walls" (Gujarat riot victims of 2002).


http://tinyurl.com/yabdlg
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 01, 2006 12:00 AM
95
Kiran,

>> Anyway where is this " point of view" of these set of people called "dalit muslims" ? Not anywhere in commonly read secular news outlets.


http://tinyurl.com/y6bxg6
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
94
Ghulam:
"From the point of view of the Muslim Dalits it is a difference without a distinction. "

But the distinction is emphatic when you compare Hinduism with Islam. Anyway where is this " point of view" of these set of people called "dalit muslims" ? Not anywhere in commonly read secular news outlets.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
93
Ghulam:
"They changed their religion, but continued to stay in the same impoverished socio-economic milieu."

Wrong. The caste Hindus treated dalit Muslims as Muslims. The distinction of "dalit muslims" has no relevence in the mindset of caste Hindus. You sure you know the specifics of the policy of "untouchability". Did caste Hindus apply that to "dalit Muslims" ? - NO.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
92
Sachar Commission criticizes both the "appeasers" and the "anti-appeasers".

Significantly, the report delivers a damning verdict on both kinds of politics: on those who have peddled themselves as “saviours” of Muslims without delivering tangibles and those who have gone ahead with divisive politics that has resulted in insecurity, fear and a sense of siege and victimhood in the community. Admitting that not “all perceptions are correct, but they are also not built in a vaccum,” the report lists “Identity Related” concerns as the prime problem the community faces.

Muslims experience “the burden of being labeled as ‘anti-national’ and as being ‘appeased’ at the same time.” It says that Muslims agonise over needing to prove on “a daily basis that they are not anti-national and terrorists, it is not recognized that the alleged “appeasement” has not resulted in the desired level of socio-economic development of the Community.” It goes on to add that Muslims feel they are looked upon with a “great degree of suspicion not only by certain sections of society, but also by public institutions and governance structures.”

(INDIAN EXPRESS)
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
91
Shankar,

>> You started by blaming Hindus for the plight of "dalit muslims"

Not blaming but invoking the history of a 3000 year old caste system to explain presnt socio-economic straits. You don't have to be so defensive!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
90
faruki then - "100 generations of abuse leaves psychological and economic sequelae that do not get cured by religious conversion.."

Faruki later - " In any case the idea is not to blame anyone."

Faruki now - "It seems you just cannot get beyond the concept of blame."

You started by blaming Hindus for the plight of "dalit muslims" and changed track when Linked to books talking about same practice in Islam..Ofcourse in the process, it became a "universal phenomenon" and "caste like " practices which are illegal in Islam..

Flip - Flop - Flip - Flop....
shankar
Mumbai, India
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
89
A.K.Ghai,

>> Of course American Society is miles ahead than us as they are alive to the problem. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE !

When everyone has a job, and working relationships are as strong as community relationships, things are different.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
88
KK LOL,

I do not know enough about the feudal system to make a comparison.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
87
Shankar,

>> In Hinduism you have Manu and uppercastes to blame it on where as for other religions it becomes a universal phenomeneon.

It seems you just cannot get beyond the concept of blame. If you believe that the Hindu caste system is no different from universal social inequalities, who am I to argue with you?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
86
Gulam and Shankar sahibs- Manu-ism nearly I say nearly dead in Cities.In villages it still is a problem.Unfortunately -for Politicans it is a gold mine of votes.So we may abolish it but vote Politics will keep it alive. Strangely cast DIFFERENCES ARE rigidly present in Christians,Muslims,Sikhs Societies too .Budhists coverts still take benifits of cast.Have we seen Any POPE other than from West ?Though majority of Christians belong to the rest of the world.
In USA inspite of all talks of equality - for Africo- Americans society still there is much scope of improvement and much is needed to be done .Offcourse American Society is miles ahead than us as they are alive to the problem. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE !
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
85
Kiran,

>> Caste like yeah? then think of something "reservation like" but not reservations.

From the point of view of the Muslim Dalits it is a difference without a distinction.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
84
Kiran,

>> Are they being discriminated in the current Muslim mileu of India or not ?

They changed their religion, but continued to stay in the same impoverished socio-economic milieu.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
83
Ghulam:
"
Caste-like practices exist among Indian Muslims, but are illicit and contrary to Islam"

Caste like yeah? then think of something "reservation like" but not reservations.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
82
The Indian caste system is a form of assertion social inequality , which you accepted is universal.

You may call it by any name but it is assetrion of social inequality. In Hinduism you have Manu and uppercastes to blame it on where as for other religions it becomes a universal phenomeneon.
shankar
Mumbai, India
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
81
Ghulam
>>"Social inequalities are universal, but rigid caste systems are not."

have you heard about feudal system?
Tell me how is feudal system different from caste
system?
Let me add the very word 'caste' is purtuguese.



kk lol
cal, India
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
80
Vikas Ranjan,

Caste-like practices exist among Indian Muslims, but are illicit and contrary to Islam. I say this without any criticism of Hinduism or any intent at one-upmanship. Hindus and Muslims both need to address this problem within their own communities.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
79
Shankar,

>> So stop blaming Hindus and MAnu alone for this universal phenomenon.

Social inequalities are universal, but rigid caste systems are not. In any case the idea is not to blame anyone.

>> Social inequalities become caste system and rigid separations , only when it comes to Hindus

If you can see no difference between universal social inequalities and the Indian caste system then I am afraid I cannot help you.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
78
Shankar,

>> It is ridiculous to blame Hindus for these practices.

I was not blaming anyone.

>> So what does it address then ?

Conversion to Islam is not offered as a solution to socio-economic problems.

>> If you wish to continue asserting that there are no social taboos in Islam

I do not know what "social taboos" mean, but I did say that social inequalities are universal.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
77
Ghulam:
"Dalits who converted carry the psychological and economic ill effects of their historic ill-treatment."

Are they being discriminated in the current Muslim mileu of India or not ? Reservation depends on that. Only a fool would say my great grandfather got a raw treatment compensate me with reservation when he currently is in a social mileu where egalatarian treatment is the norm.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
76
TO EVERYONE (Ghulam, Shankar, Raj etal)

It appears that;

1. Caste based hierarchy is endemic to Hindus of India.

2. The Hindu Castes have survived even after the conversion of the person to Islam, Christianity, Budhism and Sikhism.

3. Therefore, can we conclude that the RSS walas have a point when they assert that all of us in India are Hindus, albeit we may be Manuwadi Hindus or Mohammedwadi (pbuh) Hindus or Isawadi Hindus, or Budhawadi Hindus.

4. Do these religions permit local variations or does everything has to be as it is in Saudi Arabia or the Vatican.
vikas ranjan
gurgaon, India
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
75
Aziz - "How about Brahmin-Christian ? Joseph is an example. "

You can ask this directly to Joseph or El - Papa in vatican directly.

BTW Chirstianity is supposed to be another religion , where there are no caste / class barriers, just like Islam . And it is only Hinduism which is caste / class ridden :)
shankar
Mumbai, India
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
74
"Social inequalities are universal. "

So stop blaming Hindus and MAnu alone for this universal phenomenon.

"The caste system with its rigid separations and hierarchies is another matter."

Strange..Social inequalities become caste system and rigid separations , only when it comes to Hindus..Is not the Uppercaste Muslim socially separated from dalit muslim as well ?
shankar
Mumbai, India
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
73
Faruki - "100 generations of abuse leaves psychological and economic sequelae that do not get cured by religious conversion.."

Reread the link given by me earlier. according to this link ,practice of untouchability is common not just in India but even outside and goes back a very long time. It is ridiculous to blame Hindus for these practices.

"Conversion does not address a chronic, long-standing culture of socio-economic abasement."

So what does it address then ? Why do Islamic scholars / liberals keep lying that this is a community that breaks its bread together and has no social taboos ? Why not accept that Islam also has its share of social taboos and THEN ask for reservations?

" If you do not wish to understand that, it is your privilege."

If you wish to continue asserting that there are no social taboos in Islam and ask for reservations for "dalit muslims" at the same time, it is your privilege as well.
shankar
Mumbai, India
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
72
"People may live wherever they want and whatever religion they want to practice".

Thanks, for the suggestion

I am look forward to celebrate Durga or better still Kali puja in Riyadh. Everyone bring your own crackers.

ANBanerjee
Newcastle, United Kingdom
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
71
ANBANERJEE

"Aziz that was insulting for a brahmin.
I am going off to arrange some street riots :))"

It was an aberration. People may live wherever they want and whatever religion they want to practice.

Aziz
Pune, India
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
70

"nationalism, which was seen as dominated by *Hindus* " should read, of course.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
69

Between 1857 and perhaps 1900, Moslems were 'out of favour' with the British. But they were very much in favour by the turn of century, because of the rising tide of Indian nationalism, which was seen as being dominated by Moslems. The British tried everything to keep the Moslems on their side, or at least away form the nationalist current, by giving jobs, flattery(i.e calling them the martial ruling races of India) and half-hearted crackdown on rioters.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
68
Shankar,

>> Now the Hindus are responsible for casteism in Islam as well !!

Conversion does not address a chronic, long-standing culture of socio-economic abasement.

>> Dalit Muslim is as silly as Brahmin Muslim.

Obviously you have decided not to understand the simple proposition that a 100 generations of abuse leaves psychological and economic sequelae that do not get cured by religious conversion. If you do not wish to understand that, it is your privilege.


Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
67
My last message was to Shankar.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
66
Varun,

>> Well this book should shatter a few myths..

Social inequalities are universal. The caste system with its rigid separations and hierarchies is another matter.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
65
Aziz that was insulting for a brahmin.
I am going off to arrange some street riots :))

ANBanerjee
Newcastle, United Kingdom
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
64
Shankar,

"So the word Dalit Muslim is as silly as Brahmin Muslim."

How about Brahmin-Christian ? Joseph is an example.
Aziz
Pune, India
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
63
VARUN SHEKHAR

"Under the British, Moslems were favoured and overrepresented in government jobs in some provinces."

Indian Muslims lost bristish favor after 1857. That was the start of decline. Indian Muslims you are referring were the exceptions not the rule.
Aziz
Pune, India
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
62
THE_LEGITIMATE_BUFFOON, I thought you were from Karachi, Pakistan. I have my doubts now. Yes, we have these 'deformed' kids. Let us ask India if it has something similar.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
61
Between Pages 3 and half and 8 and a half, there is a plethora of inferences and comments based on quotes from various sources which, naturally, pre-date 2003 and are of little relavence now.

Much has happened and change in this theatre. India and Pakistan are to work jointly to fight terrorism and the talks are going along at a steady speed which is slap on the analysis under reference.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
60
As for the alleged Pakistan hand in the Mumbai bomb blasts, we are still awaiting the credible, clinching, whatever evidence.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
59
All right, India does not have 800,000 security personnel in Jammu and Kashmir. It has 3 Corps there, 14, 15 and 16 under the Northern Command. In addition one-third of the BSF is there, and there are police and all;ied support personnel there. The size of the Army including Reservists and Support Forces is close to 2.5 million. The BSF has a strength of 180,000 and the police are estimated at around 100,000.

There asre said to be 13 Corps in the Indian Army of which 3 Corps are in Jammu and Kashmir.

I leave you to do your own calculations.

As for the data about exports and industrial growth, they relate to the year 2005 and are extracted from The World Factbook 2006.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
58
"Though the tone is shrill "

I agree - but, it was one of my earliest articles...

In any case, if you're interested - you'll find a lot of data on strategic and economic issues on the bharat-rakshak site and forum.
Arindam Banerji
Sunnyvale, USA
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
57
[I have said that I will say nothing more and I will]
And yet he continues with his Paki ways of lying, misdirection and a new one – changing the context…

[vent as much spleen…]
Actually, its just some hard data on Pakistan [and India, in places] from 2003…

Could not counter the hard data, so the first attempts were some articles on discrimination in India – the misdirection failed…
So, now we come up with economic data from 2005…
[In the year 2005, India's commodity exports where …On the basis of population or GDP, Indias should have been beteeen U. S. $ 95 to 105 billion. Pakistan ahead]
[In 2005, industrial production grew by 7.9 per cent in India whereas it was 10.7 per cent in Pakistan….]

Let me check again – was the article written in 2003 or 2005? Oh! Well – nice attempt at manipulation of context, though – certainly high school level.

If you think that you can get around your claims on the article by throwing some dirt on others or your repeated attempts at changing he context [read misdirection]

Keep trying though – you’ll still find it difficult to prove the honesty of your claims about the article…
Arindam Banerji
Sunnyvale, USA
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
56
Per capita exports does not mean anything.

Japan has 1/4 the population on United states but exports 550 b compared to USA's 1000 b.
A bigger country has a larger internal economy so a smaller portion gets exported.

Since most trade happens with neighbours. In particular in case of india it is surrounded by hostile neighbours whow dont want to trade with it.

But then we are not talking of Economic Logic, are we ?

BTW : Though the tone is shrill I like Arindam's article. (Before you say what else you expect form a fellow bengali, I dont like A Sen)
ANBanerjee
Newcastle, United Kingdom
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
55
In 2005, industrial production grew by 7.9 per cent in India whereas it was 10.7 per cent in Pakistan

Pakistan ahead.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
54
In the year 2005, India's commodity exports where U. S. $76 billion whereas Pakistan's was 15 billion. On the basis of population or GDP, Indias should have been beteeen U. S. $ 95 to 105 billion.

Pakistan ahead.

By the way this a point by point reply to Indo-Pakistan Talks- Myths, Delusions and Fantasies!!, a Guest Column by Mr. Arindam Banerji in South Asia Analysis Group.

I urge you to read it and decide for your self.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
53
Joseph, do not get emotional.

About Edolphous Towns talk in the House of Reps, I doubt if he has a clue of what he is talking about.

"He reported that India's constitution denies people their fundamental right of self-determination. That is the essence of democracy, Mr. Speaker."

Can he define what self-determination is? Is it seceding from the Indian Union? If that is the case, then even the US, UK and other democratic countries do not follow the essence of democracy.

He speaks about supporting plebiscite in Khalistan, Kashmir, Nagalim and other South Asian regions (maybe he mean Baluch, Azad Kashmir or POK ).

But I am surprised that he does not talk about the thousands of people who have been killed during the terror times in Punjab and Kashmir (happening even now). He does not talk about how Hindus were selectively dragged out of buses and gunned down by Khalistani terrorists. He does not talk about how thousands of Hindus were forced out of the valley by Kashmiri militants.

Like everyone, he is presenting a side of the story that he is comfortable with. But not that would make much of a difference in the end
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
52
Mr. Arindam Banerji, I have said that I will say nothing more and I will. You can carry on and vent as much spleen as you want. How come you are still awake?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
51
[I am a Pakistani and say and write what is unpalatable]
For once, he’s stumbled on the truth. What you say is indeed unpalatable – weasel words that minimize the massacre of millions carried out by your armored mates, is indeed the kind of thing that most human beings should find unpalatable.

[references I have given indicate quite that you are bigger devils than us but are able to hide similar if not worse activities because of your size]
Again, Paki manufactured delusion – there is no numeric data in your references that indicates this. Shoot and scoot and if caught, wail in public about “hurt my honour, my credibility, my standing, my person, my countr, my people”

[I close the issue from my side.]
No counter-facts – as usual in stead of presenting anything concrete on the facts on Pakistan, after your attacks on the article – you’ve sent out a couple of articles [or perhaps more] on discrimination India and then obscenely extrapolated, like only a Paki can. Of course, here’s a sampling of some insipid stuff that came along with the typical Paki bile.
- “Anger and temper dull reason”
- “so many bad things happen in India”
- “Stick to EE”
- “can I pass on your address particulars to Terence Andrade, who is my cousin and is at AMD”
- “Your conscience will be at ease”
So, the end result is yet another, shoot, scoot and whine from a Paki.

Finally we end with:
[There is no attempt at misdirection…] and [we are in 2006 and should talk about 2006 as far as possible] in a debate over a facts within a 2003 article….
Only goes to prove what Aziz said ““the education system has made every Pakistani a hypocrite and a liar. The habit of not telling the truth has entered the mind of the student, the psyche of the individual, and the character of the nation”

Arindam Banerji
Sunnyvale, USA
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
50
One last word. The references I have given indicate quite that you are bigger devils than us but are able to hide similar if not worse activities because of your size.

Also we are in 2006 and should talk about 2006 as far as possible.

No more from my side on this.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
49
Anger and temper dull reason, Mr. Banerji. I close the issue from my side. For a scientist you are terribly rigid. There is no attempt at misdirection. Much has happened in relations between our two countries much to your bewilderment and chagrin.

I will not quote from your 18-page paper but just type this.


http://www.saag.org/papers8/paper710.html
and let the members of this Forum decide its merit, relevance and usefulness.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
48
“reasonable with an Indian Muslim but virulent with a Pakistani Christian”

Your religion is of no consequence to me – your congenital bigotry and delusional attacks on the 2003 article is.

“read this”
The dance of misdirection never stops does it – you made some claims about an 2003 article which had significant facts about Pakistan – in stead of presenting counter-facts from Pakistan, circa 2003 – you put up an 2006 remarks by Towns and some quotes from John Dayal, presenting some issues about India [not Pakistan] – this is by definition, classic misdirection.

Simply put, discrimination, in India, UK or the US does not make it OK for millions of your terror mates to fund the killing of children in India.

"Truth knows no geographical boundaries"
Childish clichés will not help you.

Once again, the counter-facts on the article - back up your claims? Prove that you’re not up to your congenital Paki tricks of misdirection and lies.

Arindam Banerji
Sunnyvale, USA
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
47
I am not what you say, Mr. Varun Shekhar. All of you have hurt my honour, my credibility, my standing, my person, my countr, my people.

I have throughout used impeccable sources and told you and the others about them. Yet I have been accused of every sin under the sun just because I am a Pakistani and say and write what is unpalatable.

Just go through Mr. Arindam Banerji's observations of today alone and see for yourself the amount of hate and anger it contains. What did you expect me to do?. Take all this lying down?.

I have said that I will no longer participate her from the Midnight between 30th. and 1st.
Allow me to vindicate my honour and standing. Allow me to quote what others feel and say about India. Allow me the space that you have desired for yourselves. Do not crowd me out through tirade, abuse, denigration, etc.

Any way just bear with me for another 16 odd hours and try and appreciate my efforts to tell you that Pakistan is not all bad nor India all good.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
46
Do not blame me, Mr. Arindam Banerji. You opened this front by your tirade and bilge. Read this now.

I have your EMail address. Do I EMail the entire collection to you as to not bore the others in this Forum?. Say but the
word.
-----------------------------------------
--------
Direct and Indirect Persecutions of the Christian Church in India.
Extract from Indian Currents:

Targetting Christians
The Delhi government's recent move to remove churches from the list of places of worship because wine is offered there, is not an isolated case of hurting the sentiments of the Christian community. In the last few months, there seems to be a systematic execution of a plan by. the Sangh Parivar to harass and intimidate the Christian community who number 23 million in India, barely 2.6 per cent of the population. Organisations like the Catholic Bishops' Conference of India and All-India Catholic Union which have compiled statistics of the attacks have found a sharp rise in the figures in the last five years. According to data collected by the CBCI regarding killing of priests and rape of nuns, only six such incidents took place between 1978-83, but there have been 17 such cases in the last five years. However, these are instances of extreme violence against the clergy According to All-India Catholic Union national secretary John Dayal, the attacks on Christians have been launched on three different fronts.


http://www.geocities.com/christbugle/persec1.htm

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
45
Hello, Arindam.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
44


Joseph, you are indeed a babyish, childish Pakistani. Face up to it.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
43
And Mr Speaker, while we suspend trade and aid with brutally repressive, fascist, India, we must continue to expand our aid and trade with wonderfully open, free, democratic, secular, pluralistic Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and China. This will do wonders for the growth of freedom and humanism throughout the world. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
42

http://blog.washingtonp...ow_class_colors_pu.html


And this one too, Mr. Arindam Banerji. Do I spare you more or do I go on?. I still have to cover so many other issues.

All I did was to enter in Yahoo Search: How India Crushed The......
a. Khalistan Movement
b. Minorities
c. Lower Castes
d. 'The Seven Sisters
e. The Jammu and Kashmir
f. Maoists.

Yahoo gratefully provided me so much information that I am amazed that so many bad things happen in India that Indians blissfully ignore.

What do say now?. Listen, I am no 12-year old. OK.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
41
"Dalits who converted carry the psychological and economic ill effects of their historic ill-treatment.."

As if the Muslim Society has no part in removing these ill effects, especially so as they claim it is a casteless, classless society. Now the Hindus are responsible for casteism in Islam as well !!

"However if you believe that these Dalits deserve less because they had convrted, just say so..."

Dalits were treated horribly earlier by Hindus and deserve a leg up and rightly so. In Islam according you there is no untouchability and no caste system and everyone eats and prays together. So the word Dalit Muslim is as silly as Brahmin Muslim.
shankar
Mumbai, India
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
40
[but based on need and possibly on history of deprivation.]

On need, I agree with you completely.
The problem with history of deprivation is that, it is subjective and hard to measure. I can measure need – by some measure on assets or at least net family income. But, on the other hand, history of deprivation is something that most thinking people will have different angles on. If you have two families of 5 – one is a Dalit family and another landless Muslim family – how do you measure who to help more urgently.

And measure we must, since even though we’re better off than a decade ago – we’re still resource constrained.

Arindam Banerji
Sunnyvale, USA
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
39
"They do eat together, and do not practice untouchability."

Well this book should shatter a few myths..

http://www.bihartimes.c...eview/book_review5.html


"The book says that the condition of dalit Muslims is "worse than dalit Hindus". "It's a big farce that there is no untouchability in Muslim society. The disease of untouchability is very much prevalent in Muslim society. In fact, neither the Muslims' ruling elite nor the religious leaders have so far made any meaningful efforts to remove the disease of inequality that has made the dalit Muslims to suffer for centuries." The author says that the Muslim political and religious leaders have rather tried to conceal the casteism, untouchability and inequality in the community to serve their vested interests."
"Interestingly, the book disputes the general opinion of historians and social scientists that the Muslim society adopted the vices of social inequality and casteism from the Hindu society. "The general belief that Muslim society has absorbed the caste based disparities from the Hindu society is not wholly true."

The book says that the disease of social inequality was prevalent even in the Arab society during the pre-Islam and post-Islam days. To drive his point home the author asks: "If there was no inequality in Arab(ia)-where Islam was born-how does the Arabic literatures contain the words, ashraf, azlaf and arzal? These three Arabic words are derived from their Arabic roots, sharf, zalf and razl which mean gentle, lowly and pariah respectively."
shankar
Mumbai, India
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
38
Under the British, Moslems were favoured and overrepresented in government jobs in some provinces. Which is perhaps the main reason these Moslems favoured the idea of Pakistan. After all, with the Hindus in power, they would no longer be automatically favoured for plum government jobs in, say, the United Provinces( Uttar Pradesh).
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
37
Apparently, Mr. Arindam Banerji, you are reasonable with an Indian Muslim but virulent with a Pakistani Christian. I can see why. One is an Indian and the other a Pakistani.

Do I need to remind you, Sir, that the Truth knows no geographical boundaries. However, that seems to have skipped you.

While you are in a pleasant frame, read this.

REPRESSION IN INDIA EXPOSED
Extensions of Remarks

HON. EDOLPHUS TOWNS
OF NEW YORK
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
TUESDAY, JULY 25, 2006

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the London Institute of South Asia recently published an edition of its Journal. It included many excellent articles on the plight of minorities in India. There were articles about the Sikhs, Dalits, Muslims, and others. A writer named Tim Phares wrote a very comprehensive article on the subject that I would like to share with my colleagues.

He took note of the plight of the Sikhs, the Dalits, the Muslims, the Christians, and other minorities in India. He noted that Christians have become “the targets of choice.'' He noted that the Indian constitution bans the caste system but it remains in place, a vehicle of oppression of minorities. He reported that India's constitution denies people their fundamental right of self-determination. That is the essence of democracy, Mr. Speaker. I don't know how a country can call itself democratic when it denies people such a fundamental democratic right.

The article takes note of the Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh (RSS), formed in support of the fascist movement, publishing a booklet on how to frame Christians and other minorities in fake criminal cases. It comments on anti-conversion laws. It details some of the violence that has come about due to such laws. Shouldn't a person's religion be a fundamental freedom, Mr. Speaker? The article notes the studies that have been done on the massacre in Chithisinghpora in which at least 35 Sikhs were murdered. It notes that they have come to the common conclusion that the Indian government's forces carried out this massacre. It notes the government's involvement in the Gujarat massacres. The article does an excellent job of detailing incident after incident of repression against minorities in India.

Mr. Speaker, we must do what we can to support freedom throughout the world. It is time to stop our aid and trade with India until it stops being the repressive regime that it is and starts being the democracy that it says it is. We should declare our support for a free and fair plebiscite in Khalistan, Kashmir, Nagalim, and everywhere people are seeking their freedom in South Asia.


http://www.khalistan.co...s_RepressionInIndia.htm
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
36
>> The question is not, whether the target of the help [read opportunity] is an ill-treated Dalit from MP, a landless Muslim from UP or a high-caste Pandit from J&K – but rather, how do we effectively help them.

Agreed. The program has to be just, practical, meaningful, financially feasible, well targeted, not religion based, but based on need and possibly on history of deprivation.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
35
“if you believe that these Dalits deserve less because they had converted”

Cant speak for others, but thanks to a lot of factors, India is seeing rapid economic growth – but the benefits of which is not yet trickling down to some of the desperately poor sections of our society. If at this time, we do not, try to give better opportunities to the converted, re-converted or re-re-converted or other people who have been left behind, thanks to history, discrimination, societal restrictions or for whatever other reason – what kind of a society will we be. If at this time, we do not do it - when will we do it?

The reason I like what Dr. Sharif is saying is that he’s focusing on the operational issues that will help bridge this gap. The hard question for Indian society [and not just its law-makers] is - how do we “implement” a helping-hand for people who “really” need it, without killing the very growth which allows us to do so, generously.

The question is not, whether the target of the help [read opportunity] is an ill-treated Dalit from MP, a landless Muslim from UP or a high-caste Pandit from J&K – but rather, how do we effectively help them.

And, I think this is the question Dr. Sharif answers, to a large extent.

Arindam Banerji
Sunnyvale, USA
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
34
The New York Times' report on Sachar Commission :


http://tinyurl.com/yanjwj
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
33
>> If so , why continue to lie saying in Islam everyone breaks their bread together and there are no social taboos ?

They do eat together, and do not practice untouchability.

>> Why continue to blame Manu and uppercaste hindus only , if the same practice is prevalent in other religions as well ?

Islam does not recognise a caste system. Dalits who converted carry the psychological and economic ill effects of their historic ill-treatment. Islam as a religion does not have the material wherewithal that GOI has, or that even the Roman Catholic Church or the American Evangelists have. And please don't mention the Saudi oil riches, because that is just so irrelevant. However if you believe that these Dalits deserve less because they had convrted, just say so.



Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
32
"This does not wash away the scars of a 100 generations of discrimination and abuse.."

If so , why continue to lie saying in Islam everyone breaks their bread together and there are no social taboos ?

Why continue to blame Manu and uppercaste hindus only , if the same practice is prevalent in other religions as well ?

If the SC / STs are discriminated against, even in Islam , why not accept that even believers practice untouchability , before asking for reservations?
shankar
Mumbai, India
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
31
>> "The banks have a primary responsibility towards their share-holders and stake-holders. By lending to people who are not credit worthy - either due to lack of capacity to pay or lack of will to pay - the banks will only erode prudent credit lending norms and would be denting their profitability."

Fair enough. Ability and willingness to pay back should be the only criteria for a bank to extend loans. In the absence of credit score systems maintained by independent agencies, there is no escape from subjective criteria.

At the same time, if a perception, that banks discriminate against particular groups, members of that group shall be diffident in approaching it for loans. It can happen even if the perception is incorrect, or just a canard. If such trends are identified (any good business should do it), banks shall be servicing those same share-holders if they reach out to such groups and evolve products/mechanisms that shall increase their share of business.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
30
Freedom to choose, freedom to dress, freedom to live, gets thrown out of the window, Mr. Akhil, when Muslims are involved. Is that what you are trying to advocate?. Shame, if it is so!
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
29
If India is going to implement some quota for Muslims, it will be better if they tie it to family planning also. If number of kids is one or two, you can have quotas; otherwise none. This will go someway in minimizing the most serious aspect of Islam, its greater than average population growth rate (none of the civic groups can oppose to this, since the decision to avail quotas is going to be voluntary).
Akhil
Chicago, United States
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
28
Not me, Abhimanyu Sharma, Sir. Not me.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
27
Hi, THE_LEGITIMATE_BUFFOON, this is just about Mr. Lalit Bagai. Is he still in that litlle town in Denmark?. He was a regular here and is now conspicuous by his absence. Can you get him back even though I have just two days more on this Forum?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
26
The banks have a primary responsibility towards their share-holders and stake-holders. By lending to people who are not credit worthy - either due to lack of capacity to pay or lack of will to pay - the banks will only erode prudent credit lending norms and would be denting their profitability.

Individual risk assessment in a large volume lending business would be extremely costly and would again dent profitability when margins are under pressure.

Therefore banks resort to credit-scoring customers, refer to credit bureaus, legal proceedings.

In India, these mechanisms are still in early stages. In addition to this, the legal recourse available to banks against defaulters is a long-drawn cumbersome process.

Given this, banks develop their own filtering mechanisms - either learnt through their own experience or learnt from other banks expreiences.

One mechanism is to avoid certain areas / localities. Another is to avoid lending to politicians, law-enforcement authorities etc.
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
25
Legitimate_Joseph/Abhimanyu,

I have better things to do than to respond to your hate mail.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
24
>> You do not reservations for the community that breaks the bread together and has no social taboos.

This does not wash away the scars of a 100 generations of discrimination and abuse.


Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
23
>> Why should banks go out of their way to provide credit to customers who are not credit worthy?

This was the argument American banks were making to deny loans to Afro-Americans, until Congress passed laws against such blanket refusals to whole localities, reminding the banks that their charter to do business includes some civic duties, and that making diligent risk assessment individually in each case was their duty.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
22
I agree with you, Mr. Shankar, Islam does not recognise. Hence converting to Islam to 'escape' caste and then retain the benefits attaced to caste smacks of hupocrisy. The Sachar Committee's decision is not based on fact but on the need to appease. Any right thinking Muslim should point this out.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
21
"Rather, the community that breaks bread together with fewer taboos than caste-divided Hindu society looks out for each other.."

This flies in the face of the argument heard recently here that SCs / STs who converted to Islam , also should get the benefit of reservation..

You do not reservations for the community that breaks the bread together and has no social taboos.
shankar
Mumbai, India
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
20
>> "So now we would have officials catering to customers based on their religion? What next, caste?"

No, but a good business should identify if a certain section is not availing/unable to avail its services, and if possible, take measures to rectify that. For example, if a retail store in US is unable to attract minorities forming reasonable percentage of local population (racial in the US context), it shall try to identify reasons. The remedial steps could include increasing certain ethnic items in the store, or employing some people from that group to increase the comfort level of the target group (e.g., our local Blockbuster carries a few Hindi titles, and Walmart has started carrying some Desi groceries). Several stores also employ Desi (or members of other minority groups), in areas where they form a sizeable number. I think its a win-win for both sides.

If not many Muslims are accessing credit, or other products offered by banks, it is in the banks' interest too to try and identify the causes, and attempt remedial steps. It's not in their own interest to neglect over 12% of population. I'm surprised private banks are not getting into the act and filling the void.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
19
"The RBI found lack of thrust for increasing the credit flow to the minority community in leading banks."

How about explaining reasons for that? As a banker, I have found that this minority community, in India, is a huge credit risk. The proportion of default on repayment is phenomenally high for this community vis-a-vis other communities.

I know for sure that banks in India do not even attempt to provide credit to certain areas in cities where this community is present in large numbers.

And the community has itself to blame for this.

"No officers were designated to cater to Muslims"

So now we would have officials catering to customers based on their religion? What next, caste?

Why should banks go out of their way to provide credit to customers who are not credit worthy? If the government is so keen, let them give loans and then write them off.
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
18
Even Sunni Muslims do get mortgage loans, business loans and life insurance policies, but the Sunni purists, including the Darul Ulum Seminary in India, are against these practices. The Shia leadership has ruled that it is okay to get life insurance policies as well as bank loans. The Grameen Bank in Bangladesh has issued loans to 7 million poor people, over 90% of whom are women.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
17
Abhimanyu,

"Well, all communities have to learn from each other. Muslims also ought to have learnt from the Hindus how to treat women as their equals and moreover, treat women as human beings."

Do you read any newspapers ? Have you heard of female foeticide ? Did you read this report ?
Aziz
Pune, India
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
16
"Roman catholics also believe that interest(usuary) is illegal. Does that stop them from taking loans and mortgages"

I have seen a lot of muslims in my native place not taking any Life Insurance policies let alone loans. Let me also add that this tendency is more among educated and professional muslims. Hence Ganesans' arguement cannot be wished wasy.
sreejith
bangalore, india
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
15
Ganesan,

"One reason might be muslims dont want loans because the Prophet prohibited it. As the Prophet declared in his last sermon, taking and giving interest is illegal. To set an example, he waived the interest he was owed by one of his relatives. So muslims in general are averse to the whole loan and paying interest process."


Roman catholics also believe that interest(usuary) is illegal. Does that stop them from taking loans and mortgages ?
Aziz
Pune, India
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
14
Mr. K. K. Lol, I will send an EMail to my Dhaka Office and come back to you. Regards.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
13
"That is not the current practice. Muhammed Yunus and his Grameen Bank got the Nobel Peace Prize for their scheme to facilitate loans to the poor in Bangladesh."

He might have got the Noble prize ,but he is under attack from the Islamists in bangladesh.
Many of his Grameen banks have been attacked with bombs and ambushed.JOSEPH mian can you confirm or deny it?

The Islamic banking system is constantlly expanding.Last time I heard ,it was planning to
open branches in India as well.
kk lol
cal, India
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
12
Dr Sharif says quite bluntly: "No government scheme has helped Muslims.
At the end of the day it is the politician who gains the most by the poverty alleviation government schemes.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
11
Ganesan says,

>> One reason might be muslims dont want loans because the Prophet prohibited it.

That is not the current practice. Muhammed Yunus and his Grameen Bank got the Nobel Peace Prize for their scheme to facilitate loans to the poor in Bangladesh.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
10
>>Muslim labour is more productive than the national average>>
This line is a good indicator of the Sachar report's credibility.
shapra
Santa Clara, USA
Nov 27, 2006 12:00 AM
9
" "The RBI found lack of thrust for increasing the credit flow to the minority community in leading banks. No officers were designated to cater to Muslims"

One reason might be muslims dont want loans because the Prophet prohibited it. As the Prophet declared in his last sermon, taking and giving interest is illegal. To set an example, he waived the interest he was owed by one of his relatives. So muslims in general are averse to the whole loan and paying interest process.

In any case, it was nice to see that there is one community that is absolutely faultless. If muslims live in darkness, its because of the govt. If muslims lack education, its because of the govt. But if the infant mortality is low, that is NOT because of the govt but because of muslims themselves!! In short, all good things are because of muslims and all bad things are because of the evil infidels.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Nov 27, 2006 12:00 AM
8
Dr Sharif is currently silent on the the terrible Hindus trsponsible for keeping the poor muslims poor as distinct from poor Hindus.
Is it not true the state has generally failed a large number of its citizen of all classes and creeds.
If there is additional data on number of offspring and education and modernisation perhaps this report can point the way to all communities.
I would hate to see the muslim poverty as distinct from hindu poverty.
I am sure an across the board norm must emerge from this debate.
Bindu Tandon
Mumbai, India
Nov 26, 2006 12:00 AM
7
>> "This is where Hindus ought to have learnt from the Moslems. Owing to their cancer of caste structure they have committed a zillion sins against women"

Where does caste come into it? What about other religions who have committed similar sins against women?
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Nov 26, 2006 12:00 AM
6
Dear Saba:

I just heard, less than an hour ago, the world's renowned humanitarian say-" the Third World War had alreay begun-Islam vs Freedom"-Please comment
Raj
Bowlingbrook, United States
Nov 25, 2006 12:00 AM
5
With expansion of the urban areas during the last century, the Muslims increasingly found themselves confined to the parts of inner-cities where they once enjoyed special priviliges and patronage of the Muslim rulers, resulting in muslim ghettos in towns and cities across the land. Worse, with the lack of public schools, madrassas teaching only Quranic studies, many the fundamentalist brand, have sprung up to fill the void, creating a huge army of youths without proper education to find proper jobs, other than hawking. It's time that Muslims realized that they cannot put all the blame on the govt - they also have to bear a huge part of the blame for their inability or refusal to integrate with the mainstream - one Muslim commentor once went so far as to say that they didn't wish to be "Indianized". So if they don't want to be Indianized, what are they doing still living in India? Why have they not gone to Pakistan, the Islamic country expressedly carved out of undivided India especially for the Muslims? It's time they put up or shut up - they can't have their cake and eat it too! Any attempt at reservations based on religion must be resisted at all costs, otherwise the very basis of what these UPA hypocrites are supposedly fighting to maintain - Nehru's secular India, will vanish, all because of criminal netas' pandering for communal votes.
Bodh
Springfield, United States
Nov 25, 2006 12:00 AM
4
The community is largely self-employed, but not by choice. Just a few decades ago, they largely worked in salaried jobs as policemen, clerks, teachers and mill workers. While easier credit, and better primary and secondary schools are very important, the mix should include extension of benefits to SC/ST to corresponding members of the Muslim community.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 25, 2006 12:00 AM
3
"More significantly, there is hardly any instance of female foeticide in the community"

This is where Hindus ought to have learnt from the Moslems. Owing to their cancer of caste structure they have committed a zillion sins against women and now are paying heavily, living in a virtual Avichi Hell, for the last millennium and a half
Raj
Bowlingbrook, United States
Nov 25, 2006 12:00 AM
2
>>there is hardly any instance of female foeticide in the community. But this is no thanks to the government. Rather, the community that breaks bread together with fewer taboos than caste-divided Hindu society looks out for each other in the ghettoes where they are increasingly pushed into.

So, the positives are thanks to the community and "no-thanks" to the govt. True. But, why don't you have the honesty to say that negatives are also due to the community and no-thanks to the govt ?

If we want to look into the real issue ( that is a big IF considering that all the previous attempts were aiming at vote banks ), we must start with honest and diligent evaluation of the situation and it's causes. I do not see any of that happening here.
Srinivas
Bangalore, India
Nov 25, 2006 12:00 AM
1
A Muslim only trusts the words and deeds of another Muslim (as clearly expressed in this column). Then they wonder aloud why others treat them with suspicion (nobody likes being made to look like a fool). A really crazy people who can only be contended in joy or misery as long as the rest of the populace is also Muslim.
Akhil
Chicago, United States
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