Sandeep Adhwaryu
opinion
The First War Ever?
There were many earlier 'wars of independence' before 1857
The Government of India has decided to celebrate the anniversary of 1857 as the First War of Independence. A debate has been raging about the 1857 uprising. One eminent group would like to remember it as a momentous event, almost unprecedented in its sweep, which gave a great fillip to our fight against the British. For another equally eminent group, it was merely a sepoy mutiny, involving rebellious kings and potentates, and not necessarily a progressive event.

The debate is not over yet, despite the government's decision. I therefore want to warn our present-day rulers against reinventing history in their own partisan way. It's a mistake all successful rulers have made since they became aware of the role of history in the march of time. For who would not like to see his or her name emblazoned in the roll-call of history?

To me, the entire renewed effort to call the cataclysmic events of 1857 the first war of India's Independence is to trivialise the importance of history. And as a mature nation—a nation with a mind—we should desist from doing so.

After all, what do we mean by the term 'first war' of independence? If we think that this battle against the British should be called the war of independence, then what should we call the wars of Mysore that Tipu fought? Or, what were the wars that the Marathas fought with the Mughals? Or, if it is a war against all foreign invaders, where should we place the heroics of Maharana Pratap or Chhatrapati Shivaji?

Should we not remember the first Anglo-Sikh War in 1846, when the British governor-general himself was in danger of being captured by the Sikhs? If the Sikhs had then been able to march to Delhi, who knows, the British might have had to leave India altogether.

We should be very clear about the enemy against whom the war is being waged. For example, the Sikh Misl specialised in waging guerrilla warfare against scourges from the West like Nadir Shah or Abdali, who would invade India and take away Indian women in the thousands, to be sold in the streets of Basra. And Sikh guerrillas would harass them right up to the Attock (Indus) to recover as many Indian women as they could and then try to restore those unfortunate women to their families. Now, what war were they waging? Evidently, a war of independence! For, it was the Sikhs under Hari Singh Nalwa who re-established the traditional border of India across the Khyber.

And what about the time when Zaman Shah invaded India to re-establish the Afghan empire here? Ranjit Singh, or more correctly the Sikhs again, met him in open battle, destroying the pride of Central Asia. Twenty thousand Afghan soldiers lay dead as against 15,000 Sikhs of the Misl levies before Zaman Shah retired from the battlefield.

The point I am trying to make here is that love of the motherland has been deeply ingrained in the hearts of men since the dawn of history. It is Lord Rama, after all, who said "Janani janmabhumishcha swargadapi geeyasi" (Mother and the motherland are even greater than heaven)". Hence, fighting for the honour and defence of the motherland has always been a sacred cause.

Even so, it is a common human weakness to create benchmarks of man's achievements, by saying this or that happened for the first time ever. So let me talk of a benchmark of this kind. There was one Banda Singh Bahadur, the first ever Jathedar of the Khalsa Panth, nominated by Guru Gobind Singh himself. And for a time in 1709, he destroyed all the vestiges of Mughal tyranny in Punjab, as a hurricane removes all the dead leaves from a tree. He became the first ruler of Punjab and he issued coins in the name of Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh, as a symbol of Sikh sovereignty. It was perhaps for the first time that such a thing had happened in India, after the fall of Anangpal, as the second millennium began.

Now, can we not call his achievement the first battle of independence won? No. It is the march of evolutionary history that counts its benchmarks in firsts and seconds. And that happens in the West. But our time is cyclical, because the Indian cosmic order was evolved as Time itself took birth. It has no beginning and no end.

I take great pride in what happened in 1857. And I salute its heroes and martyrs. This was certainly an event that shook the British to their very foundations. Still, I shudder to call it the first battle of our independence. To me, it appears that by doing so we are trivialising history and compromising its sacredness for very small ends. Let me, therefore, hope and pray that my Cassandra's voice is listened to.




(The author is a Rajya Sabha member and former chairman, National Commission for Minorities)
 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Dec 05, 2006 12:00 AM
63
Paranoid JoJo "How did you manage to break the cover, Mr. Ghulam Y. Faruki?. I thought it was WORLD CITIZEN."

I seem to have left my imprint upon old JoJo's psyche - he imagines my existence everywhere.

A while back he accused me of being 'Joseph ka baap', now he accuses me of being 'The Legitimate Joseph'. So in other words, if I don't appear on this forum for a few days, JoJo starts looking for me under different aliases !!! That is surely paranoia......and it is typical of Pakis.....
World Citizen
Mumbai, India
Dec 04, 2006 12:00 AM
62

Yes, it's absolutely amazing how little Vijayanagar figures in the consciousness of Indians, including south Indians! Considering it was the biggest city of its time, and that it was utterly wiped out. The Indian education system has to be blamed.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 02, 2006 12:00 AM
61
Dear Joseph (Legi?),

I have answered it but yes it is hard to understand if one does not wants to understand but contradict.

People before 1857, during 1857 and after 1857 understand that Bharat varsh (the empire of King Bharat) people had commonalities in culture, traditions etc. though now the Bharat varsh is divided into different countries, royalties. For e.g., India and Pak are different nations but we do share commonalities.

Yes you can read between the lines or misinterpret or pick one irrelevant point to contradict or argue
amar
Delhi, India
Dec 02, 2006 12:00 AM
60
My last post was a reply to Mr.Chaitanya.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Dec 02, 2006 12:00 AM
59
So what the Mughals failed to accomplish, the British succeeded in accomplishing. Commonsense would tell you that the genocidal wars and the wasteful luxury of the Mughal empire would hardly be conducive to GDP growth. You could of course say "did the Hindu empires not wage such war"? The answer would be - " not at the expense of learning and culture. Hindus would not have been as insecure in a Hindu kingdom - imagine what progress we would have achieved if the majority were not pillaged and robbed on a regular basis? Ever heard of the Vijayanagara? "
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Dec 01, 2006 12:00 AM
58
Dear Joseph (Legi?)

When you find a document with the proof that Bharat was named after the King Bharat, there you can read that Bharat varsh referred to his empire, for easy reference search Google.com you can find some references or read Mahabharat.

There is no contradiction, concept of Bharat varsh is referred at the time of 1857 war, when people lived under different royalties.

You are talking about centuries back (100, 200, 1000? any reference since you enjoy proofs), but I am writing with reference to 1857 war and that war was not fought with the aim of achieving a Unified India, otherwise show some proof as I requested before.

And this time read my posting properly before jumping to contradict it.
amar
Delhi, India
Dec 01, 2006 12:00 AM
57
Dear Abhi,

1. Bharat varsh is for the empire that was ruled by King Bharat that spread from borders of middle east and Afganistan of today to whole of present India, Sri Lanka and Pakistan.

When I say concept of Bharat varsh, it refers to the commanalities of culture and tradition that people within Bharat varsh shared but lived under different royal boundaries.

Bharat rashtra is India as a nation under one government.

2. For your second question, please contradict my statement with historic proof and evidence. Was 1857 war fought with the aim of getting rid of British and establishing one united Indian nation? Proof?
Did any of the leaders or sepoys or all who participated declared that this is war of Independence to form India? Proof?

There aim was to get rid of British rule.
1857 war was declared by Indian historians as first war of Independence retroseptively when British India was formed and efforts were made to get rid of British and establish unified India and this war since was the first cohesive attempt to get rid of British was called first war of Independence.
amar
michigan, USA
Dec 01, 2006 12:00 AM
56
Dear Joseph (Legi?)

I am under no obligation to you to read all feedbacks and yes, have you made it a point to read all historical facts related to 1857 War before commenting here, if yes very good other wise your choice.

The concept of Bharat Varsh was there but not Bharat Rashtra and the 1857 war was the first large scale war fought to get Bharat Varsh rid of British rule but as I said before everyone from rules to sepoys fought to get rid of British rule for different reasons.


amar
michigan, USA
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
55
Correction:
Sikhs lost to British in 1846.
amar
michigan, USA
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
54
It is interesting how the discussion has moved from 1857 to the present conflicts of the World, and that prompted me to add my two bits.

The main problem is that we view this war of 1857 from the prism of today and not on what was the situation at that time. In my opinion, it is correct that this was the First full scale war of Independence from the East India Company but not a war for India, the concept of nationhood from Hindukush to Kanyakumari was still infant.
Everyone at that time fought against the British for different reasons but on somewhat a common platform, the royalties were fighting because Company was taking over there kingdoms and sepoys for the infamous cartridges that affected their religion. But most did agree to declare Bhadur Shah as the ruler of India, a common platform, under whom they wanted to fight.

Now, question many have raised is, were the rulers including Sikhs who supported British were traitors. Sikhs lost to British in 1947 and had treaty with them to keep their kingdom in return of loyalty. So why should Sikhs and other such rulers not fight with British who allowed them their rule, did not threat their religion and rather defeat British to establish back the Mogul empire which never ever let them have their own kingdom and was racial to non Muslims. In fact after 1857 war most rulers who survived including Scindias went for similar treaties with British Empire.

The concept of nationhood only came after East India Company was abolished and British India was formed.

amar
michigan, USA
Nov 30, 2006 12:00 AM
53
This writer is funny.. While I thank the Sikhs for putting down the "jihadi" mutiny along with a few other "royals", the writer is taking the story back to praising all the other wars between Kings and royals..

Let's get out of this BS and focus on the agitations / battles fought for universal franchise / human rights / social reforms etc.. and not waste time on the wars / battles between one coloniser and the other..
Selvan
Boston, United States
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
52

Pakistan doesn't have any counterbalancing groups to offset the power of religion and religious fanaticism. The US does. Israel has a solid history of democracy. Anyway, nothing justifies what Pakistah does.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
51
Israel is solely guided by Religion as well, THE_LEGIMITATE_BUFFOON. Again Mr. George W. Bush is solely guided by God. It is a funny World out there.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
50
Chola attack might have been only a raid. The practice in those days was if a king attacked some other state, after defeating the other king he would make the other king accept him as a sovereign and every year pay some tax. It was totally different from the recent concept of empires. Going by the same old concept malaysia and indonesia were part of Chola empire.(accepting Chola king as sovereign and paying tax every year).
Aziz
Pune, India
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
49
Aap beech me kahan seh tapak aye, Mr Vikas Ranjan?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
48
Aap beech me kahan seh tapak aye, Mr Vikas Ranjan?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
47
JOSEPH OF KARACHI
"Mr. Adi from XXXXX in the U. S. A., Taleban and begging bowl are old hats and over-worn cliches,"

So why not don a new hat, why the capitulation in Waziristan. Force of habit?

Or as the bard put it " Bujh chuka hai tere husn ka hukkah ae Ghalib, Ek ham hi hain jo gudgudae ja rahe hain".
vikas ranjan
gurgaon, India
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
46
And Pakistanis come from superior martial races than Indians do.After all, the glorious martial races ruled the wimpy, effeminate Hindu vegitarians for thousands and thousands of years. And so do Chinese. Take my word for it. Democracy, freedom, secularism and pluralism are absolute garbage. What counts is the excellent artistry of a military take-over, and the grand magnificence of a communist politburo. Take my word for it.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
45

That has a lot to do with Pakistan itself being largely a creation of India-hating, Hindu-hating, India-fearing, Hindu-fearing INDIANS! After all, the support for the Pakistan idea was greatly more pronounced in the 'Moslem minority' provinces than in the 'Moslem majority' ones. Though of course, Punjab became absolutely rabid by 1945, and NWFP a year later. Baluchistan was never supportive, and Sind by a whisker. Pakistan is not, has never been , a secure, mature, self respecting country. It has to compare every little, petty thing with India, to feel alive, and provide itself some legimitacy. The day Pakistan becomes mature, intelligent and self respecting, it will cease to be Pakistan, and that it is the beauty of it.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
44
Agar mujhe 'India-fixation' hai, aap ko 'Pakistan-fixation' kyon ke hum aap as meh padoos hai aur darmian meh Jammu aur Kashmir hai, Sri K. K. Lol. Aur koi karan ya wajah nahin. Aur yeh 'fixation' jub tak rehenga jub tak Jammu aur Kashmir ka masla hai.



Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
43
JOSEPH mian,
can you tell me why do the Pakistanis lack so
much self confidence ,that they always keep on
comparing themselves to India?
kk lol
cal, India
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
42
Bareekhi, Sri Chaithanya!
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
41
Here you are Mr. Chaithanya, the estimates are correct. Please see below. Thank
you.
------------------------------------------
-------
According to the American Community Survey of the U.S. Census Bureau, the Asian Indian population in the United States grew from almost 1,678,000 (16.78 lakh) in 2000 to 2,319,000 (23.19 lakh) in 2005: a growth rate of 38%, the highest for any Asian-American community. In 2005, the Indian American community has become the second largest Asian community in the United States after the Chinese-American community, slightly edging out the Filipino-Americans to the third place. Asian Indians are most heavily concentrated in California, New York, New Jersey, Texas, Pennsylvania and Illinois. The top urban destinations for Indian Americans include New York City, the San Francisco Bay Area, Chicago, Los Angeles, Philadelphia and Washington,
D.C..[1]
--------------------------------------
-----------
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
40
Mr. Adi from XXXXX in the U. S. A., Taleban and begging bowl are old hats and over-worn cliches, as is the so called merit of democracy.

At the end of each day, it is better to to to bed better fed, clothed and sheltered. Pakistanis are. As are the Chinese. Take my word for it.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
39
Mr.Joseph of Karachi: "I am always comparing Pakistan and India, this has a purpose. It is to tell India and Indians to get of its high horse and behave like a country with a low GDP per capita, etc, etc, etc. "
That's grand, coming from a begging-bowl nation whose claim to fame is the Taliban and sentencing innocent women to be raped.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Nov 29, 2006 12:00 AM
38
What THE_LEGITIMATE_JOSEPH has said is entirely
true.Unfortunately,this history is not taught
to us in the schools instead most of the Indian history is about Islamic invasion of India and British colonialism.Consequently,most of the Indians are ignorant of their glorious past.
kk lol
cal, India
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
37

The Chola attack on Sumatra was more in the nature of a hurried raid across a stretch of territory. It was mainly retaliation for the piratical activities of the Sri Vijayan kings. A permanent or even long term conquest was not achieved. The Cholas had huge interests in the trade with SE Asia and East Asia, so any attempt to disrupt it would have bought about retaliation. Today in Southeast Asia, nobody resents India for an attack that took place 1000 years ago. There was additionally no imposition of language, religion, sect or even prolonged physical presence. So the assertion of Indian non-belligerence vis-a-vis other countries/civilisations really does hold true.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
36

Legimitate Joseph, really appreciate you bringing those facts to our attention. Particularly the one about how India influenced China for nearly 2 thousand years without firing a shot( or swinging a sword, whatever). Before the modern era, the Indian influence on Asia was the most peaceful transmission of cultural influence in the histroy of the world. The Greeks, Romans, Persians and Arabs had nothing like it. The honesty and class of that Chinese official is refreshing, because in Asia today, India's traditional influence is hardly acknowledged, let alone praised. It's now all American pop culture and Christian evangelism. It's reached the point where Asians know much less about the politics, history and societies of other Asian countries, than they do about some trendy Yankee pop phenomenon, whether a person, music,activity or style of clothing! In fact, references to other Asian countries, including India( perhaps even more so) can even be very jarring, ignorant or dismissive, as opposed to articlute and empathetic. Mercifully, there are exceptions, but the general trend is negative.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
35
"Get your facts straight about Wikepedia as it is not very reliable source of info"

I'm Sure about Chola Kingdom. It is in history books. Wikipedia link was only to support the fact. Tamils were traditional sea farers. The two main Kings were Raj Raj Chola and Rajendra Chola. If you can find the map to Rajendra Chola's empire it covers Indonesia, Malaysia and Sri Lanka etc. Infact, there is a sizable Tamil population in this area and some of them trace back their roots to Tamils settled during that time. Indians can hardly be held guilty for Chola empire, since Kings acted on their whims and fancies not what future generations might think of them.
Aziz
Pune, India
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
34
WORLD HISTORY FACTS ABOUT INDIA

1. Cholas conquered indonesia and malaysia(13th century). you may revise 1000 years to 600-700 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chola_dynasty


2. they are called Arabic Numerals.
4. Sanskrit is suited for text processing computing not writing all the softwares.
8-9. Pythogorus is credited with Pythogorus theorem. Algebra comes from Al-Jabr in Arabic.

15. There was also Mesopotamia and Nile Valley civilization.

Rest is Okay.

Thanks
Aziz
Pune, India
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
33
Shri Tarlochan Singh Ji,
I really enjoyed your article and am really curious to know more about King Anangpal. Although I am aware of King Anangpal of Lahore(??) but have never read or seen any references in the history books that I had access to.

I will really appreciate any links or references that you can provide me on King Anangpal.

Sincerely

Anand
Anand
meerut, India
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
32
All those achievements of India are in the dead past, THE-LEGITIMATE_BUFOON.

In the living present India has GDP of U. S $ 782 at this moment, etc., etc., etc.

Let the dead past buru its dead.
Act, act in the living present.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
31
Mr. Abhimanyu Sharma, if, as you assert, I am always comparing Pakistan and India, this has a purpose. It is to tell India and Indians to get of its high horse and behave like a country with a low GDP per capita, etc, etc, etc. Also to make clear that looking to South Asia first will be more fruitful and less embarrassinng. Also, also to be less distrustful of others. Got it.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
30
How did you manage to break the cover, Mr. Ghulam Y. Faruki?. I thought it was WORLD CITIZEN.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
29
With reference to your riposte to Mr. Chaithanya, it is for the first time, THE_LEGITIMATE_BUFFOON, that I am in agreement with you.

Pakistanis are reasonable people when Indians talk sense they appreciate the fact and acknowledge it.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
28
I meant Chaitanya in my last post.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
27
Caitanya says,

>> If you have come across my earlier postings in the last few weeks of this forum, you would have noticed my anti-muslim bias.

I did.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
26
Mr.Chaitanya: "you can be frank, which will reduce unnecessary assumptions..you can say Hindu kingdoms which they were."
The idea of India is a Hindu idea. You can argue incessantly about whether the whole of India was under one ruler at any time - as if that is what defines a nation. If you look at the histories of any modern nation you will find that what defines them today is not some historical united rulership but the common identity of it's people. India has been a nation with a thousand rulers throughout history but the real India is in the Hindu epics which assert that the land from Kashmir to Kanyakumari is Bharatavarsha. That is the idea of India - not Mauryan rule, not the Vijayanagara empire.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
25
Abhimanyu Sharma and The_Legitimate_Joseph are the same person.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
24
Abhimanyu,

>> all Indians to feel ashamed for Malegaon blasts?

When bombs are set off in holy places such as Varanasi or the Malegaon cemetry, it is a matter of shame for all of us. The guilty people should of course be heavily penalized, but to say that one whole community or other should be held responsible is despicable. But you won't understand that.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 28, 2006 12:00 AM
23
Illegitimate Joseph,

Police also claim to have "solved" the Mumbai blast case, but the Cemter still feels that all the evidence is not in. If the police have apprehended the real Malegaon culprits, then they deserve the stiffest penalty the law permits.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 27, 2006 12:00 AM
22
HELO AN INTERESTING NUGGET OF HISTORY.
BHIVANDI and Malegaon came to in existence after 1857. After sacking Delhi -GORAS started killing total muslim populations of village after village in Delhi ,Meerut,around Lucknow and Kawanpur--.Muslims came as as refugees and settled in Bhiwandi-Sahpur-Malegaon belt.They know their History and want peace !
Thus a transmigration did took place in 1857 much before 1947.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Nov 27, 2006 12:00 AM
21
Our Congress govt is very sesitive to Muslims feeling and has decided to hand over Malegaon investigations to CBI as some rabble rouser Muslim orgs were saying why Muslims only are arrested ? Let CBI INVESTIGATE. OUR POOR POLITICIANS AND THEIR VOTE BANKS !
TRUTH WILL COME OUT DON'T WORRY. OUR MEDIA IS VERY SMART .
MUSLIMS OF MALEGAON TOO HAVE SEEN THROUGH THE GAMES OF POLITICIANS AND PAK TOO.THEY TOOK OUT MORCHAS AGAINST ISI AND PAK HOLDING THEM FOR BLALASTS .
TRUTH HAS A STRANGE HABIT OF COMING OUT FROM UN-EXPECTED CORNERS.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Nov 27, 2006 12:00 AM
20
There is no need to celebrate this as there were many such revolts all over India before 1857. To use Munnabhai language, just for time pass, this should not done. One feels, that MK Gandhi's Dandi March should be celebrated as a turning point in Indian history. Many may not agree, but all activities before the Salt march have many stories flying around, with regions having their own viewpoint. Indian history now is in the hands of free lance writers , who are for the vast Indian market both in India and overseas to make bucks. The academics did not do a good job, because, they looked at the writings of the victors in history.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Nov 26, 2006 12:00 AM
19
Pakistan was to receive its share of all things on the basis of population apart from human assets who were given the choice to opt.

Aap anjane kyon ban rahe heh.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 26, 2006 12:00 AM
18
i WANT TO UNDERSTAND THIS ASSET TRANSFER MANY TIMES POINTED OUT- UNCLE .I WAIT
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Nov 26, 2006 12:00 AM
17
Mujahids, if at all, is after 1988.
India blocked asset transfer.........more 500 attempts including the creation of Bangladesh, and still continue through may Consulate Offices in Afghanistan.

I will be going to evening Mass because of Cricket from 5:00 a. m. till 9:00 p. m.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 26, 2006 12:00 AM
16
HELO UNCLE Joe -so angry even after SUNDAY mass ? Excuse the other Joseph as he is young and brash.He is free to criticise and get away without fear of midnight knock !
Welcome to point our uglier side all the times . Because we have good shades too.Not necessary for you to acknowlege.We INDIANS are not so lucky like Pakis where every thing is Zanat AND EVRY BODY is in Zanat where masses are enjoying all riches and all worldly comforts.We read daily highly glowing accounts of achievements in Pak Newspapers.
Uncle how come a balanced and well read man like you is saying India wanted to break Pak since 1947 ?Quote one instance when we infiltrated Muhazids in Pak ? Did we started 1965 ?Did we deny Bengali majority parlamentarians the right to form Govt in 1970? Did we asked Pak for two Pms one for East and WEST ? Did we kill ten lakh East Pakistanis ? Was Gen. Tikka Khan The Butcher of Bengalis Indian Army's General ? Did we started Kargil ? Sachin I owe.
Hindus and Christians are still coming to India escaping PAK's Muslim zealots.We see and read what they say.
UNCLE LET US ACCEPT OUR MISTAKES OF SIXTY YEARS AND LOOK FOR BRIGHT FUTURE.WHAT DID WE GOT IN SIXTY YEARS MADNESS ? Why you too Uncle ?Your Vranacular Press is not enough ?
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Nov 26, 2006 12:00 AM
15
THE_LEGITIMATE_BUFFON, Pakistan does not need any excuses for its existence-past, present and future. Its existence today is a blow to Indian machinations and, therefore, so galling and hurting to most India who were teens between 1947 and 1965. They were fed on the tommy rot that Pakistan will not last and that wishful thinking subsists.

Bangladesh was 'engineered' out of vendetta and short sightedness and another 'thorn iun the flesh' was created.

The question is hypothetical as the Indian's are likely to open the borders. First open your minds, banish distrust and look ahead.

Forget about staying in Pakistan, please, return to Mumbai, Chennai, Houston or Betelguese, where your tone,style and character will be more welcome.

When you return do something about the kidney transplant rackets, the clinical trial rackets, the child and adult sex rackets, the bar girls racket, the stock market rackets, etc., etc.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 26, 2006 12:00 AM
14
Joseph,

Churchill has never been called a dictator as a Prime Minister. He may be a dictator at home, or even in his cabinet, he had character quirks, he was a maverick before he came to power, he was an imperialist, but in order to be a "dictator", one has to exercise absolute unrestricted power over his people, which he never did. When he was defeated by Attlee in the 1945 elections, he left quietly, as a democrat should.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 26, 2006 12:00 AM
13
Churchill was not just a dictator in the home country. He was a dictator in the home.

This is from 'The Churchill Centre' but in rebutting the negative factors, it cites them. It gives,you both sides of the picture.

REAL VERSUS RUBBISH: RUMBLES LEFT AND RIGHT

"Churchill for Dummies," by Michael Lind, The Spectator, 24 April 2004. "The Real Churchill," by Adam Young, Ludwig von Mises Institute (www.mises.org)

MICHAEL McMENAMIN

===
Mr. McMenamin, a Cleveland attorney, heads The Churchill Centre's Northern Ohio affiliate and is a Finest Hour contributor. This review appears in Finest Hour No. 123, Summer 2004, page 38.
===

http://www.winstonchurc...es/index.cfm?pageid=892


Can one be a Democrat and an Imperilist at the same time?. Is this not a contrdiction in terms?.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 26, 2006 12:00 AM
12
It is near Midnight, Mr. Abhimanyu Sharma. I hope you are awake.

Dil balaney ki baat nahin hai. Haqeeqat ki baat hai. Is Mr. George W. Bush a reflection of the American people?. Is Mr. Lallo Prakash Yadav a reflection of India?. I can go on.

Let me be bold and suggest that our Army Rulers are a reflection of a Pakistanis psyche, and hjave, therefore, been able to stay in for so long.

There is a long story here. The arrogance and aloofness of Mr. Jinnah. The failure of the elitist and feudal politicians of 1947 to 58 to think ou of the box to use a present day cliche. They ruled like they ruled their Zamindaris and Fiefdoms, and, therefore, were disinclined to get rid of Feudalism and Nawabis as India and East Pakistan did.

Like all fuedals, they kept their 'serfs' uneducated which pattern still subsists. Fopr me the biggest mistake was to induct a serving Army General into the Central Cabinet as Defence Minister. That was the beginning of the end of democracy as you have it in India.

Democracy has many senses and there is no such thing as a 'true sense'. If one takes a generous view Pakistan has had a lot of democracy albeit og the controlled or 'musbathh natiaj' type. Having said that the exercise of regular elections is not absent from the grass roots level up to the Senate. You may not like it. However, it is a part of democracy.

I have dashed off just two EMails. I was blocked two times too. I do not believe in filth and subterfuge.

Now you end by being snide and cynical. If free speech is vulgar speech, God help us all. Take care. Have you been long enough on this Forum to know about the filth, abuse, insult, doubt that has been hurled at me. I have lost my equanamity on three occasions and have apologised on each occasion.

Have THE_LEGITIMATE_JOSEPH, Zaphod of Betelguese, World Citizen, and 11 others bothered to be decent?. I leave you to answer that question.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 26, 2006 12:00 AM
11
Churchill was an imperialist, but not a dictator in the home country.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 26, 2006 12:00 AM
10
Well, Churchill was the worst form of a Dictator and a White Supremist as well. Yes, I forgot. If democracy has Laloo at one end it has Churchill at the other. Do not get me wrong but I believe that Democracy is the most grossly over-rated form after the MBA I did in the mid-1960s. It got me a job and nothing more. Similarly democracy gets you rulers and nothing more.

Returning to Churchil, if it were not for Mr. Clement Atlee, the Malboroughs would, perhaps, still be ruling us in British India.

By the way, I decided to stay up for the Brisbane Test. Australia have just declared at 202 for 1. Cheers.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 26, 2006 12:00 AM
9
Joseph,

>> democracy as it is practiced in India and the U. S. A., for instance, is far being an epitome of virtue

I can do no better than Churchill, "Democracy is the worst form of Government except all those others that have been tried from time to time"
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 26, 2006 12:00 AM
8
AK Ghai has provided the answer-The East India Company with their Purbia army were able to annex the Sikh raaj.Had the Purbia & Gurkhas not helped the British or had the Dogra Generals not betrayed- the British would have to run away from India in 1946 itself. Was India earlier one unified country?The Sikhs had carved out an independent state east of Sutluj extending upto the the formidable areas of Afghanistan- born out essentially out of Mughal tyranny & the subsequent massacre and loot of invaders coming from Khyber. Can we say J&K trying to remain independent an act of betrayal?The Sikhs had thrown their lot with India in 1947-when given a chance to be independent. Work out the percentage of Sikhs hanged & imprisoned for the cause of Independence and it would turn out to be much beyond their small proportion.You can disagree with Tarlochan Singh but the first war of Independence began much earlier than 1857.
bull
Ludhiana, India
Nov 26, 2006 12:00 AM
7
Yes, Mr. Ghulam Y. Faruki, on my way back from the washroom, I just stopped to check and find that the person whom I prefer to call THE-LEGITIMATE-BUFFOON is still at it in posting venomous nonsense. I have asked the Executive Editor in charge to block or deber him or her.

Let me say that I am all for free speech and the God given right of freedom but with the rider that one must remain within the realms of the law but more importantly within decency. I must confess that I may have transgressed these very boundaries on some two or three occasions but I was goaded into it and have apologised thereafter irrespective.

Regarding our particular exchange, I understand your quest for perfection and your appreciation such wonderful gifts as liberty, freedom, democracy, etc. I too love them, and in the early 1960s have spent 'TIME IN' albeit for a short while till sundown when at Dhaka University.

Time has made me pragmatic. I would rather be in Pakistan or in China if it provides me better roti, kapda and makhan without ineccesarily impinging on my rights and freedom. In any case democracy as it is practiced in India and the U. S. A., for instance, is far being an epitome of virtue. On the contrary it stinks. Stinks of sexual innuendo, false television and newspaper adverisaing, 'macacaca', ballot box grabbing or capturing. It is the democracy of money, deceit and false promises. It is the democracy of self-glorification and self-aggradizement. It brings out the worst 'scum' and caters to the interest of the lowest common denominator and produces a goof like Mr. George W. Bush or a scoundrel like Mr. Laloo Prasad Yadav.

You may argue, as it is often done, that people get the government they deserve. This would be a valid arguement in a democratic dispensation free from money politics and muscle.

I have been at this for half an hour now and need to go back to bed. I shall read your response, if any, after breakfast. Take care and keep up the good work.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 26, 2006 12:00 AM
6
>> until a Bangladeshi Muslim was arrested for these blasts.

Nobody has been convicted.
THE_ILLEGITIMATE_JOSEPH, like all his previous avataars, continues to lie and make defamatory statements. He has no purpose other than to sow discord.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 26, 2006 12:00 AM
5
Indian history is one long series of treachery, botched campaigns by arroagant, myopic leaders, many too cowardly to be even called leaders, and worse, by the traitors who sell out for personal gain, only to end up also losing. So this talk of 'Wars of independnce' is all bollocks - everyone fought for their own glory or enrichment and not so much purely out of some 'national pride'. I wouldn't trust any Indian further than I can throw him, the treacherous corrupt carrion that they are - they'll even sell their mothers to get ahead.
Bodh
Springfield, United States
Nov 25, 2006 12:00 AM
4
Ghai,

I agree with you. Seems we are experts in digging out old discords. History of collaboations seems to give us no pleasure or pride.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Nov 25, 2006 12:00 AM
3
very well said
Srinivas
Bangalore, India
Nov 25, 2006 12:00 AM
2
1857 NOT 1957 -SORRY MY MISTAKE.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Nov 25, 2006 12:00 AM
1
By 1957 Shikhs had been defeated by Purbia- British army ,Shikhs in turn made a point to defeat Purbia Army JOININGG HANDS with Goras
Have we learnt from our historical mistakes ? Our Pakis friends are being exploited by USA since 1958.Now BIG BROTHER CHINA is new MALIK.
HAM GHULAM THEH -HAM GULAM HO JAIN GEY ,
PAR APAS ME MIL KAR NAHIN RAHEN GAYE !

MY BUMS(nukeS) ARE BIGGER ! WHOSE BUMS ARE BIGGER , DEAR FRIENDS FROM PAK ?
a k ghai
mumbai, India
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