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Afzal Hanging
'And His Life Should Become Extinct'
The Very Strange Story of the Attack on the Indian Parliament

We know this much: On December 13, 2001, the Indian Parliament was in its winter session. (The NDA government was under attack for yet another corruption scandal.) At 11.30 in the morning, five armed men in a white Ambassador car fitted out with an Improvised Explosive Device drove through the gates of Parliament House. When they were challenged, they jumped out of the car and opened fire. In the gun battle that followed, all the attackers were killed. Eight security personnel and a gardener were killed too. The dead terrorists, the police said, had enough explosives to blow up the Parliament building, and enough ammunition to take on a whole battalion of soldiers. Unlike most terrorists, these five left behind a thick trail of evidence—weapons, mobile phones, phone numbers, ID cards, photographs, packets of dry fruit, and even a love letter.

Not surprisingly, PM A.B. Vajpayee seized the opportunity to compare the assault to the September 11 attacks in the US that had happened only three months previously.

 
 
In its August 4, 2005, judgement the Supreme Court clearly says that there was no evidence that Mohammed Afzal belonged to any terrorist group or organisation.
 
 
On December 14, 2001, the day after the attack on Parliament, the Special Cell of the Delhi Police claimed it had tracked down several people suspected to have been involved in the conspiracy. A day later, on December 15, it announced that it had "cracked the case": the attack, the police said, was a joint operation carried out by two Pakistan-based terrorist groups, Lashkar-e-Toiba and Jaish-e-Mohammed. Twelve people were named as being part of the conspiracy. Ghazi Baba of the Jaish (Usual Suspect I), Maulana Masood Azhar also of the Jaish (Usual Suspect II); Tariq Ahmed (a "Pakistani"); five deceased "Pakistani terrorists" (we still don't know who they are). And three Kashmiri men, S.A.R. Geelani, Shaukat Hussain Guru, and Mohammed Afzal; and Shaukat's wife Afsan Guru. These were the only four to be arrested.

In the tense days that followed, Parliament was adjourned. On December 21, India recalled its high commissioner from Pakistan, suspended air, rail and bus communications and banned over-flights. It put into motion a massive mobilisation of its war machinery, and moved more than half-a-million troops to the Pakistan border. Foreign embassies evacuated their staff and citizens, and tourists travelling to India were issued cautionary travel advisories. The world watched with bated breath as the subcontinent was taken to the brink of nuclear war. (All this cost India an estimated Rs 10,000 crore of public money. A few hundred soldiers died just in the panicky process of mobilisation.)

Almost three-and-a-half years later, on August 4, 2005, the Supreme Court delivered its final judgement in the case. It endorsed the view that the Parliament attack be looked upon as an act of war. It said, "The attempted attack on Parliament is an undoubted invasion of the sovereign attribute of the State including the Government of India which is its alter ego...the deceased terrorists were roused and impelled to action by a strong anti-Indian feeling as the writing on the fake home ministry sticker found on the car (Ex PW1/8) reveals." It went on to say "the modus operandi adopted by the hardcore 'fidayeens' are all demonstrative of launching a war against the Government of India".

The text on the fake home ministry sticker read as follows:

"INDIA IS A VERY BAD COUNTRY AND WE HATE INDIA WE WANT TO DESTROY INDIA AND WITH THE GRACE OF GOD WE WILL DO IT GOD IS WITH US AND WE WILL TRY OUR BEST. THIS EDIET WAJPAI AND ADVANI WE WILL KILL THEM. THEY HAVE KILLED MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE AND THEY ARE VERY BAD PERSONS THERE BROTHER BUSH IS ALSO A VERY BAD PERSON HE WILL BE NEXT TARGET HE IS ALSO THE KILLER OF INNOCENT PEOPLE HE HAVE TO DIE AND WE WILL DO IT."



This subtly worded sticker-manifesto was displayed on the windscreen of the car bomb as it drove into Parliament. (Given the amount of text, it's a wonder the driver could see anything at all. Maybe that's why he collided with the Vice-President's cavalcade?)

The police chargesheet was filed in a special fast-track trial court designated for cases under the Prevention of Terrorism Act (POTA). The trial court sentenced Geelani, Shaukat and Afzal to death. Afsan Guru was sentenced to five years of rigorous imprisonment. The high court subsequently acquitted Geelani and Afsan, but it upheld Shaukat's and Afzal's death sentence. Eventually, the Supreme Court upheld the acquittals, and reduced Shaukat's punishment to 10 years of rigorous imprisonment. However it not just confirmed, but enhanced Mohammed Afzal's sentence. He has been given three life sentences and a double death sentence.

 
 
The SC goes on to say, "The incident... had shaken the entire nation, and the collective conscience of the society will only be satisfied if capital punishment is awarded to the offender."
 
 
In its August 4, 2005, judgement, the Supreme Court clearly says that there was no evidence that Mohammed Afzal belonged to any terrorist group or organisation. But it also says, "As is the case with most of the conspiracies, there is and could be no direct evidence of the agreement amounting to criminal conspiracy. However, the circumstances, cumulatively weighed, would unerringly point to the collaboration of the accused Afzal with the slain 'fidayeen' terrorists."

So: No direct evidence, but yes, circumstantial evidence.

A controversial paragraph in the judgement goes on to say, "The incident, which resulted in heavy casualties, had shaken the entire nation, and the collective conscience of the society will only be satisfied if capital punishment is awarded to the offender. The challenge to the unity, integrity and sovereignty of India by these acts of terrorists and conspirators can only be compensated by giving maximum punishment to the person who is proved to be the conspirator in this treacherous act" (emphasis mine).

To invoke the 'collective conscience of society' to validate ritual murder, which is what the death penalty is, skates precariously close to valorising lynch law. It's chilling to think that this has been laid upon us not by predatory politicians or sensation-seeking journalists (though they too have done that), but as an edict from the highest court in the land.

Spelling out the reasons for awarding Afzal the death penalty, the judgement goes on to say, "The appellant, who is a surrendered militant and who was bent upon repeating the acts of treason against the nation, is a menace to the society and his life should become extinct."

This paragraph combines flawed logic with absolute ignorance of what it means to be a 'surrendered militant' in Kashmir today.

So: Should Mohammed Afzal's life become extinct?

A small, but influential minority of intellectuals, activists, editors, lawyers and public figures have objected to the Death Sentence as a matter of moral principle. They also argue that there is no empirical evidence to suggest that the Death Sentence works as a deterrent to terrorists. (How can it, when, in this age of fidayeen and suicide bombers, death seems to be the main attraction?)

If opinion polls, letters-to-the-editor and the reactions of live audiences in TV studios are a correct gauge of public opinion in India, then the lynch mob is expanding by the hour. It looks as though an overwhelming majority of Indian citizens would like to see Mohammed Afzal hanged every day, weekends included, for the next few years. L.K. Advani, leader of the Opposition, displaying an unseemly sense of urgency, wants him to be hanged as soon as possible, without a moment's delay.

 
 
The police knew their cold-blooded fabrication of a profile for these 'terrorists' would mould public opinion, create a climate for trial. But there will not be any legal scrutiny.
 
 
Meanwhile in Kashmir, public opinion is equally overwhelming. Huge angry protests make it increasingly obvious that if Afzal is hanged, the consequences will be political. Some protest what they see as a miscarriage of justice, but even as they protest, they do not expect justice from Indian courts. They have lived through too much brutality to believe in courts, affidavits and justice any more. Others would like to see Mohammed Afzal march to the gallows like Maqbool Butt, a proud martyr to the cause of Kashmir's freedom struggle. On the whole, most Kashmiris see Mohammed Afzal as a sort of prisoner-of-war being tried in the courts of an occupying power. (Which it undoubtedly is). Naturally, political parties, in India as well as in Kashmir, have sniffed the breeze and are cynically closing in for the kill.

Sadly, in the midst of the frenzy, Afzal seems to have forfeited the right to be an individual, a real person any more.
 
 
Think about it. On the basis of illegal confessions extracted under torture, hundreds of thousands of soldiers were moved to the Pakistan border at huge cost to the exchequer.
 
 
He's become a vehicle for everybody's fantasies—nationalists, separatists, and anti-capital punishment activists. He has become India's great villain and Kashmir's great hero—proving only that whatever our pundits, policymakers and peace gurus say, all these years later, the war in Kashmir has by no means ended.

In a situation as fraught and politicised as this, it's tempting to believe that the time to intervene has come and gone. After all, the judicial process lasted 40 months, and the Supreme Court has examined the evidence before it. It has convicted two of the accused and acquitted the other two. Surely this in itself is proof of judicial objectivity? What more remains to be said? There's another way of looking at it. Isn't it odd that the prosecution's case, proved to be so egregiously wrong in one half, has been so gloriously vindicated in the other?

The story of Mohammed Afzal is fascinating precisely because he is not Maqbool Butt. Yet his story too is inextricably entwined with the story of the Kashmir Valley. It's a story whose coordinates range far beyond the confines of courtrooms and the limited imagination of people who live in the secure heart of a self-declared 'superpower'. Mohammed Afzal's story has its origins in a war zone whose laws are beyond the pale of the fine arguments and delicate sensibilities of normal jurisprudence.

For all these reasons it is critical that we consider carefully the strange, sad, and utterly sinister story of the December 13 Parliament attack.
 
 
Killing people and falsely identifying them as 'foreign terrorists', or falsely identifying dead people as 'foreign terrorists' is not uncommon among security forces.
 
 
It tells us a great deal about the way the world's largest 'democracy' really works. It connects the biggest things to the smallest. It traces the pathways that connect what happens in the shadowy grottos of our police stations to what goes on in the cold, snowy streets of Paradise Valley; from there to the impersonal malign furies that bring nations to the brink of nuclear war. It raises specific questions that deserve specific, and not ideological or rhetorical answers. What hangs in the balance is far more than the fate of one man.

 
 
Of course, judicial objectivity exists. But it's a shy beast that lives deep in the labyrinth of our legal system. It takes whole teams of top lawyers to coax it out of its lair.
 
 
On October 4 this year, I was one amongst a very small group of people who had gathered at Jantar Mantar in New Delhi to protest against Mohammed Afzal's death sentence. I was there because I believe Mohammed Afzal is only a pawn in a very sinister game. He's not the Dragon he's being made out to be, he's only the Dragon's footprint. And if the footprint is made to 'become extinct', we'll never know who the Dragon was. Is.

Not surprisingly, that afternoon there were more journalists and TV crews than there were protesters. Most of the attention was on Ghalib, Afzal's angelic looking little son. Kind-hearted people, not sure of what to do with a young boy whose father was going to the gallows, were plying him with ice-creams and cold drinks. As I looked around at the people gathered there, I noted a sad little fact.
 
 
Afzal's lawyer did not once visit his client in jail to take instructions. He did not summon a single witness in Afzal's defence, barely cross-examined the prosecution's witnesses.
 
 
The convener of the protest, the small, stocky man who was nervously introducing the speakers and making the announcements, was S.A.R. Geelani, a young lecturer in Arabic Literature at Delhi University. Accused Number Three in the Parliament Attack case. He was arrested on December 14, 2001, a day after the attack, by the Special Cell of the Delhi Police. Though Geelani was brutally tortured in custody, though his family—his wife, young children and brother—were illegally detained, he refused to confess to a crime he hadn't committed. Of course you wouldn't know this if you read newspapers in the days following his arrest. They carried detailed descriptions of an entirely imaginary, non-existent confession. The Delhi Police portrayed Geelani as the evil mastermind of the Indian end of the conspiracy. Its scriptwriters orchestrated a hateful propaganda campaign against him, which was eagerly amplified and embellished by a hyper-nationalistic, thrill-seeking media. The police knew perfectly well that in criminal trials, judges are not supposed to take cognisance of media reports. So they knew that their entirely cold-blooded fabrication of a profile for these 'terrorists' would mould public opinion, and create a climate for the trial. But it would not come in for any legal scrutiny.

Here are some of the malicious, outright lies that appeared in the mainstream press:

'Case Cracked: Jaish behind Attack'
The Hindustan Times, Dec 16, 2001: Neeta Sharma and Arun Joshi

"In Delhi, the Special Cell detectives detained a Lecturer in Arabic, who teaches at Zakir Hussain College (Evening)...after it was established that he had received a call made by militants on his mobile phone." Another column in the same paper said: "Terrorists spoke to him before the attack and the lecturer made a phone call to Pakistan after the strike."

'DU Lecturer was terror plan hub'
The Times of India, Dec 17, 2001

"The attack on Parliament on December 13 was a joint operation of the Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM) and Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) terrorist groups in which a Delhi University lecturer, Syed A.R.
 
 
The callousness with which the investigations were carried out demonstrate a worrying belief that they wouldn't be 'found out', and if they were, it wouldn't matter very much.
 
 
Gilani, was one of the key facilitators in Delhi, Police Commissioner Ajai Raj Sharma said on Sunday."

'Varsity don guided fidayeen'
The Hindu, Dec 17, 2001: Devesh K. Pandey

"During interrogation Geelani disclosed that he was in the know of the conspiracy since the day the 'fidayeen' attack was planned."

'Don lectured on terror in free time'
The Hindustan Times, Dec 17, 2001: Sutirtho Patranobis

"Investigations have revealed that by evening he was at the college teaching Arabic literature. In his free time, behind closed doors, either at his house or at Shaukat Hussain's, another suspect to be arrested, he took and gave lessons on terrorism..."

'Professor's proceeds'
The Hindustan Times, Dec 17, 2001

"Geelani recently purchased a house for 22 lakhs in West Delhi.
 
 
It was a chilling moment in court. Akbar, the J&K cop who'd signed Afzal's Seizure Memo, told him in Kashmiri that "his family was alright". Afzal knew this was a veiled threat.
 
 
Delhi Police are investigating how he came upon such a windfall...".

'Aligarh se England tak chaatron mein aatankwaad ke beej bo raha tha Geelani (From Aligarh to England Geelani sowed the seeds of terrorism)
Rashtriya Sahara, Dec 18, 2001: Sujit Thakur

Trans: "...According to sources and information collected by investigation agencies, Geelani has made a statement to the police that he was an agent of Jaish-e-Mohammed for a long time.... It was because of Geelani's articulation, style of working and sound planning that in 2000 Jaish-e-Mohammed gave him the responsibility of spreading intellectual terrorism."

'Terror suspect frequent visitor to Pak mission'
The Hindustan Times, Dec 21, 2001: Swati Chaturvedi

"During interrogation, Geelani has admitted that he had made frequent calls to Pakistan and was in touch with militants belonging to Jaish-e-Mohammed...Geelani said that he had been provided with funds by some members of the Jaish and told to buy two flats that could be used in militant operations."

'Person of the Week'
Sunday Times of India, Dec 23, 2001:

"A cellphone proved his undoing.
 
 
Why is it that when there is this whole murky universe begging to be revealed, our TV channels are busy staging hollow debates between uninformed people and grasping politicians.
 
 
Delhi University's Syed A.R. Geelani was the first to be arrested in the December 13 case—a shocking reminder that the roots of terrorism go far and deep..."

Zee TV trumped them all. It produced a film called December 13th, a 'docudrama' that claimed to be the 'truth based on the police chargesheet'. (A contradiction in terms, wouldn't you say?) The film was privately screened for Prime Minister A.B. Vajpayee and Home Minister L.K. Advani. Both men applauded the film. Their approbation was widely reported by the media.


TV grab of one of the terrorists of the December 13, 2001, Parliament attack

The Supreme Court dismissed an appeal to stay the broadcast of the film on the grounds that judges are not influenced by the media. (Would the Supreme Court concede that even if judges are beyond being influenced by media reports, the 'collective conscience of the society' might not be?) December 13th was broadcast on Zee TV's national network a few days before the fast-track trial court sentenced Geelani, Afzal and Shaukat to death. Geelani eventually spent 18 months in jail, many of them in solitary confinement on death row.

He was released when the high court acquitted him and Afsan Guru. (Afsan, who was pregnant when she was arrested, had her baby in prison.

 
 
Unmoor yourself conceptually, if only for a moment, from the 'Police is Good/Terrorists are Evil' ideology. The evidence, minus its ideological trappings, opens up terrifying possibilities.
 
 
Her experience broke her. She now suffers from a serious psychotic condition.) The Supreme Court upheld the acquittal. It found absolutely no evidence to link Geelani with the Parliament attack or with any terrorist organisation. Not a single newspaper or journalist or TV channel has seen fit to apologise to Geelani for their lies. But S.A.R.

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Filed In:
Authors: Arundhati Roy
People: Mohammad Afzal Guru
Tags: Parliament Attack Case
Section: National
Subsection: Cover Stories|Essays
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COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Oct 27, 2007 12:00 AM
274
It is not Afzal' story. It is the story of everybody who is without a connection to the Powerful elite in this country. The media is free as long as it is allowed to be free. The media doesn't tell when muslims are rounded up to be tortured, chargesheeted and convicted -just like Afzal- in Aligarh, Hyderabad, Coimbatore, Mumbai, Aurangabad, etc. Media is not free to report atrocities of the governmental forces operating in the twilight zone. While muslims are anyway target of Nationalistic India and ever complying judiciary, the common people are also target. Once has to see the jails, police stations, CBI's cells, STF's chambers to know what horrendous crime is committed to preserve the facade of Democracy, equality, fraternity and freedom. Not all the people victim of Indian State brutality are muslims, not all the people who face the music of Judiciary are muslims, not all the people unjustly accused and convicted and encountered are muslims. The mentality remains same, the target changes. The Shiv Sena, patronised by the then Government of Maharashtra was initially targetting South Indians, then Gujaratis and finally Muslims. Nothing changed really. The Indian Army is as brutal in Northern States as in Kashmir, the special cells are as above law in Kashmir as in Karnataka. The media is as controlled in Kashmir as everywhere else.

But we have to stand up and be counted. Good that outlook atleast allows Arundhati to write such stuff. I don't know how long it will sustain the onslaught of Brute Indian Governmental forces against itself before it regrets to Arundhati Roy.

Whenever you stand for justice, those whose interest are linked to injustice will definitely cry foul and call you traitor. But keep it up, Arundhati. I salute your courage in taking the Indian Governmental Bull by horn.

Working abroad, I feel pride when I tell people I belong to India. I earn the respect. I try to give back India what it ought to give me. I don't steal its foreign Exchange. I don't visit alleys of Black market to exchange my Dollars and discourage my friends.Back home, the very structure I support kills my countrymen. Dislodges my countrymen. Tortures my Countrymen. Only difference is who does it. Whether it is Sabharwal, Advani, Harshad Mehta, Modi or Rajeev Gandhi.
khalid faridi
Kuwait, Kuwait
Oct 27, 2007 12:00 AM
273
It is not Afzal' story. It is the story of everybody who is without a connection to the Powerful elite in this country. The media is free as long as it is allowed to be free. The media doesn't tell when muslims are rounded up to be tortured, chargesheeted and convicted -just like Afzal- in Aligarh, Hyderabad, Coimbatore, Mumbai, Aurangabad, etc. Media is not free to report atrocities of the governmental forces operating in the twilight zone. While muslims are anyway target of Nationalistic India and ever complying judiciary, the common people are also target. Once has to see the jails, police stations, CBI's cells, STF's chambers to know what horrendous crime is committed to preserve the facade of Democracy, equality, fraternity and freedom. Not all the people victim of Indian State brutality are muslims, not all the people who face the music of Judiciary are muslims, not all the people unjustly accused and convicted and encountered are muslims. The mentality remains same, the target changes. The Shiv Sena, patronised by the then Government of Maharashtra was initially targetting South Indians, then Gujaratis and finally Muslims. Nothing changed really. The Indian Army is as brutal in Northern States as in Kashmir, the special cells are as above law in Kashmir as in Karnataka. The media is as controlled in Kashmir as everywhere else.

But we have to stand up and be counted. Good that outlook atleast allows Arundhati to write such stuff. I don't know how long it will sustain the onslaught of Brute Indian Governmental forces against itself before it regrets to Arundhati Roy.

Whenever you stand for justice, those whose interest are linked to injustice will definitely cry foul and call you traitor. But keep it up, Arundhati. I salute your courage in taking the Indian Governmental Bull by horn.

Working abroad, I feel pride when I tell people I belong to India. I earn the respect. I try to give back India what it ought to give me. I don't steal its foreign Exchange. I don't visit alleys of Black market to exchange my Dollars and discourage my friends.Back home, the very structure I support kills my countrymen. Dislodges my countrymen. Tortures my Countrymen. Only difference is who does it. Whether it is Sabharwal, Advani, Harshad Mehta, Modi or Rajeev Gandhi.
khalid faridi
Kuwait, Kuwait
Nov 16, 2006 12:00 AM
272
I am Nagarajan, Anand. My letter(edited) appears on page page 8 of your issue bearing dateline Nov'20.I appreciate Editors' right to edit/abridge/dispose of letters otherwise.I also expect a certain basic minimum education and/or appreciation of contents/an intelligent guess as to what the correspondent wants to say (in the absence of patience or time to read thro' letters)in your Editors' team.
Mine was an attempt, however crude,poor or amateurist it was to deride Arundathi Roy.You made me look her prime admirer.The least you can do is to publish my letter, unabridged.If the readers can stand the dozen pages of heavy A.Roy reading they can stand my muck and you may redeem my honour as a dissenter of the great A Roy.
Please do carry out your threat-"A selection of these against magazine stories might make their way into print magazine after editing."( I hope not the kind of selective and unethical editing.)

Thanks.
N NAGARAJAN
16 BAJARANG SOCIETY
V V NAGAR
GUJARAT
388120
E-mail sunduni09@yahoo.com
nagarajan
vallabh vidyanagar,anand, India
Nov 10, 2006 12:00 AM
271
If there's a bigger punishment than hanging, it should be given to this M#@$%F, like torturing him for a year or so before hanging him. This should be the message we should be sending out to all the terrorists in & across the border wanting to attack us.

My heart goes out to those brave soldiers who lost their lives in the process of saving the very symbol of our largest democracy. Now all of their lives was a complete waste. The Nation could've benefitted a lot if any of those filthy garbages sitting inside that symbol were killed in that attack.

Hanging or no-Hanging... the wide support base he got in & outside J&K plus the usual Pseudo-secular support will definetely be a morale booster for every single man in Pak, Bangladesh having a heartfull of hatred against us and looking for an opportunity to attack us.

This sentence was given to him on the normal course of our Judiciary and I really wonder what's all this fuss about.

Mr.Prez & Cong/Commies... please forget about your vote-banks just for a second and come to your senses that he's a dreaded terrorist assisting in attacking only you guys in the very place of our democracy & most importantly that HE IS SENTENCED TO DEATH by our own Judicial system.

If not Hanged... It's quite likely that this fanatic will be released by any hostage taking or blackmails by his fellowmen from across the border.

My Dear countrymen... it's a hard pill we all have to swollow. Many more 7/11 kind of attacks are going to come to our streets. Afterall we are the ones who elected a deadly combination of anti-national Cong & Commies. We deserve to be killed by the favourite vote bank of our rulers.
sripathi
Nicosia, Cyprus
Nov 05, 2006 12:00 AM
270
Vinod Mehta,

After reading yet another article my arundhati roy in 'Outlook', I am quite conviced that you are having an affair with her! Else, why would you waste so many pages on the ravings of this anti-national idiot.
Raj
Chennai, India
Nov 05, 2006 12:00 AM
269
Mr. Raj, why must you see clandestine affairs in everything?.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 05, 2006 12:00 AM
268
In case Arundhati's free, please send her to Goa; we have a couple of causes brought to the national attention. I presume her services are free!
amar heblekar
Panaji, India
Nov 03, 2006 12:00 AM
267
The author appears to be highly concerned for ensuring the maximum judicial protection to all the persons accused of terrorism. She also seems to believe that all the charges are fabricated by police and the accused are basically innocents. Who then is carrying out various terror strikes in the country in claiming lives of thousands of innocent victims? One wonders if the author feels any sympathy for those victims.

It is an interesting supposition to imagine how Ms Roy will handle the terror menace if she is made Home Minister of the country.
ukjha
Bhilai, India
Nov 03, 2006 12:00 AM
266

The real hero of Kashmir, Major Somnath Sharma.


http://ia.rediff.com/ne...spec.htm?q=tp&file=.htm


The 1947-48 operations in Kashmir which secured Kashmir for India, and prevented a larger Islamo-fascist state on India's borders.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 02, 2006 12:00 AM
265
Nice detailed article but just forgot all those innocent people who died in the shootout…. for the nation……….
Jaideep
Pune, India
Nov 01, 2006 12:00 AM
264

Hari, I see where you are coming from i.e people not having faith in the democratic, pluralistic system, but where are you going, or rather, where are these movements going, in Kashmir, Assam and Nagaland? If, as you imply, the people of these areas have no faith in the Indian democratic, pluralistic system, and if their dislike and distrust of it is so deep rooted, what are they going to replace it with? With yet another crude, paranoid, authoritarian entity experiencing successive military coups? This is where vision and transcendence comes in. If a people( and I'm assuming here for argument's sake it is the people, not just a smattering of militant militias) are fighting against the oppressive presence of another people, shouldn't they be struggling to create something better in every way than what existed before. That's what the progressive anti-colonial, pro-people movements in Asia and Africa were all about. Those were causes that enriched and elevated humanity, even, corny as it sounds, a few of the individuals of the European power against whom the struggle was waged. The more sensitive, keen minded type saw the injustice and inequity of the whole master race-subject race dichotomy that they were perpetuating indefinitely. Except for promoting more killing and mayhem, these movements in Kashmir, Assam and Nagaland are not going to achieve anything, not even in raising awareness globally( except among a few crude opportunists) about the justness of their respective causes. For that to happen, there has to be something that touches people to the marrow, to make them sit up and say "I see it now.Those societies must be made totally independent in order for them to progress,as well as for India itself, and even the world as a whole". The daily dose of grenades, bombs and machine gunfire isn't displaying anything, except the idiocy and brutality of the individuals responsible for it.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 31, 2006 12:00 AM
263
What a buch of obnoxious idiots those students are. Calling a leader who was both voted in and voted out, a Nazi. (Incidentally, why not a Conquistador, or an early Australian settler against the Aborigines?- but that's another issue) This talk was about the rise of India and China, not about the NDA's record in power. People like that give India a bad name, and increase the misinformation and misrepresentation of India, whereas India needs uplifting and elevating portrayals. Those students said nothing when the Taliban felt so insecure, that they forced a 300 strong(oooh, so terrifying) tiny Hindu minority to wear yellow badges. Jerks!
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 31, 2006 12:00 AM
262
Joseph writes:"The two alleged Pakistanis were not nabbed in an encounter but were picked up earlier from Delhi."

Out of interest, can you quote the source of this news??
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Oct 31, 2006 12:00 AM
261
Since Outlook has not come up with articles protesting the death sentence of Santosh Singh, I take it that death sentence is a deterrent against murder and rape. Only against terrorism is the death sentence ineffective. Got it.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 31, 2006 12:00 AM
260
Ganesan,

I think if you consider the evidence against various people who have been awarded the death sentence, and that against Afzal, I think it would be clear why there is a difference.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 31, 2006 12:00 AM
259
"Ganesan,

I think if you consider the evidence against various people who have been awarded the death sentence, and that against Afzal, I think it would be clear why there is a difference. "


Well Ajit, thats not the argument most people gave. They opposed death sentence as such. Like Raman who said there is no proof that death sentence acts as a deterrence. He was talking about terrorists. So my question is "Is death penalty a deterrent against rape and murder"?

I want to know what people are opposing. Are they opposing death sentence as such? If thats the case they must oppose the death sentence against Santosh with the same vigor as for Afsal. Or is there an evidence threshold that needs to be crossed before one gets death? If so who decides that? The edit board of the Hindu or the courts?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 31, 2006 12:00 AM
258

Hari, feelings of alienation are one thing, but relentless, gratuitous violence and that too, directed against a democratic, pluralistic state like India are indicative of some pathology in these movements. Perhaps mixed with crass opportunism by the leaders of the militant groups. But don't you think that by now,after all these years, you would see evidence of something visionary, transcendant and liberatory in Kashmir, Assam and Nagaland? Something that would make people say "yes, I see it now, those people are victims of a horrible injustice and inequity that can't be resolved within the context of a democratic, pluralistic country" From their inception, the causes have all been based on resentment, fear, hatred, suspicion, anxiety and neurosis. Even that would be understandable, not laudable, if the entity against which they were struggling were some hideously oppressive one- and hence the violence. Cetainly the world at this late stage would have woken up to the liberatory, transcendant nature of these movements and expressed heartfelt sympathy, and probably given some degree of material support. It just isn't happening, like it did in South Africa, or as it is going on in Myanmar. Doesn't that tell you something about the movements themselves, regardless of the lapses and weaknesses of the 'Indian state'?
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 31, 2006 12:00 AM
257
There are major differences, both with the nature of the crimes and their implications, between the cases of Santosh Singh and Afzal Guru. The hanging of the latter would prove a serious impediment to getting at the truth about the parliamentary attacks, and therefore, is deserving of much more detailed attention to various aspects of the case. That said, Santosh Singh surely deserves clemency despite the horrendous nature of his crime, and his case, and that of other people engaging in similar crimes, should also be studied, by psychologists, sociologists et al. Treating these as purely law and order problems is definitely not wise.
For those clamouring for the death penalty, I would like to draw attention to the shooting of many innocent girls by a father of two, here in the United States, just a few weeks ago. The girls belonged to the Amish community, whose elders told the other children not to hate the person who did the killing, and requested that the money being raised to help the bereaved families be shared with the family of the killer (who killed himself after shooting the girls). The widow and children of the killers were invited to the funeral of the Amish girls as well. It is a profoundly moving and humbling experience to read about this reaction to such violence. True healing begins thus.
Contrast this with how an administration took wanton advantage of the attacks on the World Trade Center to inflict infinitely greater violence on the people - children, women and men - of Afghanistan and Iraq; how the assasination of Mrs. Gandhi led to the slaughter of tens of thousands of Sikhs; how the Godhra incident led to a preplanned, deliberate pogrom of rape and murder of Muslims; how the demolition of the Babri Masjid led to the carnage that followed; how real and perceived injustices suffered by Muslims led to the killing and displacement of their Kashmiri Hindu brethren; how the injustices suffered by the Jews at the hands of Europeans have led to the justification of much more insidious genocidal acts against the Palestinians... The list goes on and on.
It is easy to get carried away by anger and revenge, but in each and every instance, the situation has been rendered much worse. It is also worth remembering that those in power and those who seek it, have used the irrational fear of the other, to stoke the flames of hatred and violence. We can stop that by nurturing love and forgiveness for all living beings in our heart.
Hari Chathrattil
Syracuse, USA
Oct 31, 2006 12:00 AM
256
Adding to the earlier comment, it is also worth noting that almost all of these crimes are committed in the name of God, who all religions say, is the very embodiment of mercy, love and compassion. So who is more religious, those who incite anger and hatred, be it fundamentalist Christians (no shortage of them here in the US), fundamentalist Imams and mullahs in madrasas, fudamentalist rabbis in synagouges, or the RSS/VHP netas (including the Bal Thackerays, Togadias and Advanis)? We need to find ways to break free of the shackles that these people seek to bind us with for their own crazed visions of the world, and do this without resorting to hatred and violence towards them.
Hari Chathrattil
Syracuse, USA
Oct 31, 2006 12:00 AM
255
Varun,
You are right. Gratuitous violence arising from feelings of alienation or other injustices cannot be justified, but at least some of the violence can be placed in a context and understanding that can lead to amelioration. However, I ask you to look at the possibility that while India is certainly democratic and pluralistic, the actions of the state can belie this, and can (there is ample evidence of this) certainly be “hideously oppressive”.
You and I are lucky to benefit from the benign aspects of the state, but others are not. Like the millions of people displaced by major development projects like dams without due compensation or a say in the whole process, reduced to living in abject poverty and misery; those who, under one stroke of the British administrative pen, were rendered landless when the rent-collectors were made landlords (zamindars), and have not seen their lives bettered by the Indian state which undertook to do it, but never implemented land reforms; the millions who see the revolution promoted by the Naxalites as their only way out – these are all people who do not see the possibility of resolution of injustice in the context of a democratic, pluralistic society. It is up to us, beneficiaries of this democracy, to work for that resolution. And I think we should start by getting rid of the habit of blaming the victim.
The United States is a so-called democracy, but it has a history steeped in racism and violence, from the genocide of the native Americans, the abetment of and participation in slaughter in Indonesia, Vietnam, the Philippines, many countries in South America, and now, in Iraq and Afghanistan. I can attest to the fact that virtually every American I know is a wonderful, caring, and kind human being, that people mostly follow traffic rules, seem to have a much better civic sense than the urban population in Indian cities, and so on… But this does not change the fact that the country’s foreign policy has been, and is, a major force of oppression and injustice in the world. This is not to forget the culpability and complicity of other nations including the G8, in perpetrating and perpetuating oppression and injustice.
Coming back to India, we do not have to seek evidence of the liberating, transcendent nature of the movements from other people’s recognition of this. Mandela was officially designated a terrorist by the US for a long, long time. Officials of the Pol Pot regime were officially recognized as the representatives of Cambodia at the UN long after the regime was overthrown by Vietnam. India is among the many countries who have recognized Chinese sovereignty over Tibet, although the oppression and obliteration of the lifestyle, culture and religion of the indigenous people there continue to this day.
PS. I need to get back to work, but would love to meet up with you one of these days if you can drive the four or five hours to Syracuse.
Hari Chathrattil
Syracuse, USA
Oct 31, 2006 12:00 AM
254
Hari,

Thanks for highlighting the Amish response to what was inflicted on them. Such stories are excessively rare today.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 30, 2006 12:00 AM
253
Oh OH!! Santosh Singh has been given the death penalty. Where are the opponents of death penalty? Will Outlook run a cover story "Dont hang Santosh Singh"? WIll Roy write an article about the perils in hanging him? Will we be given advice about how death penalty is NEVER a deterrent?

I am looking forward to reading those articles. If the opponents of death penalty do not raise their voice in opposing the death sentence for Santosh, they would be without a doubt hypocrites. Or will they oppose the death sentence only when the dude happens to be a muslim? Lets see.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 30, 2006 12:00 AM
252
Will death penalty ever act as a deterrent against rape? Has there been any study that shows that life imprisonment is a much better sentence than death in cases of murder and rape? I am really stunned that the predator state will take the role of terminator and terminate the life of a human being? I hope to see massive rallies in support of Santosh's right to live and against the mean, predator state.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 30, 2006 12:00 AM
251
Ganesan asks, "Where are the opponents of death penalty?"

I oppose death penalty. I urge a life sentence in the case of Santosh Singh.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 29, 2006 12:00 AM
250
Certainly after reading this article I shocked from inside by realising all the manipulations and framing of evidences done by Police System. Being a protector of civil society police is not proving his responsibilities for a long time.
In this process of weakining law and judicial body I believe Kashmir will not remain integral part of India as people are loosing faith in the system on which foundation of Independent Kashmir was led infront of our old nationalists.
Pradeep Sharma
Mumbai, India
Oct 29, 2006 12:00 AM
249
I would like to thank you for publishing Arundhati Roy's article on this very important theme. I wonder, when we have such a sharp mind like Ms Roy's, do we need the Supreme Court at all? It seems that the court is not doing its job properly. So we should do away with courts and let Ms Roy advocate for terrorists and other culprits.
Dinesh Kumar
Chandigarh, India
Oct 29, 2006 12:00 AM
248
This is arguably one of the most powerful thing to have appeared in print in recent times. There are just too many loop holes and some of them are so big that a whole school of whales can swim through them. Even if half of what Roy has written is true, they should not only spare Afzal's life but also apologise to him. This is Abdul Kalam's last chance to stop the hanging and prove to the world that the President of the largest democracy in the world is not a rubber stamp. If Afzal's life becomes extinct, so shall my faith in human values.
Mazhar
Lucknow, India
Oct 29, 2006 12:00 AM
247
Mr. Pradeep Sharma, we now have yet another example of Police Manipulation in Karnataka.

The two alleged Pakistanis were not nabbed in an encounter but were picked up earlier from Delhi.

How paranoid can India get?. Can matters get more bizarre than this?
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 28, 2006 12:00 AM
246
The root causes of terrorism have been and are being studied. There is plenty of material to read and understand, not only about why people take to terrorism, but also how the monikers of terrorist and terrorism are applied almost exclusively to non-State actors, unless it is an officially deemed enemy nation – be it Pakistan or Iraq or Afghanistan or Nicaragua or India. One need not (I cannot) agree with the path of violence undertaken by the Maoists in Nepal, the Naxalites in India, the Tamils in Sri Lanka, the Intifada movement in Palestine and so on, but it has to be recognized that this recourse is taken to when great injustices are perpetrated by those in power (backed by those who have back them) and the violence is many times greater when governments get into the act.

It does not matter if the person convicted was from the RSS/VHP combine, the Taliban, the KKK or the Crusaders. If there are major fallacies in how the case has been prosecuted, the death penalty cannot be levied. And in this particular case, clearly more investigation is called for, when it is a nation’s parliament that has been attacked. Pointing out and protesting injustice is not pseudo-anything, it is the duty and responsibility of every public citizen. And the holes that Roy has picked in the Supreme Court’s argument/judgment are too many.

It is facile, not to mention deeply erroneous, to attribute absolute hatred of the other to a whole community, whether it is Muslim or Hindu or Jews, and then develop pure hatred for the others’ “pure hatred” and justify all acts of violence against them.

The Supreme Court’s rhetoric in invoking the appeasement of “society’s collective conscience” in order to send a person to the gallows after a highly flawed judicial process is bizarre, and underscores that there is something very, very rotten in the state our so-called democracy. The vituperative nature of many comments here (I am not singling anyone out) that inhibits reasoned debate or discussion does not help.
Hari Chathrattil
Syracuse, USA
Oct 28, 2006 12:00 AM
245
A correction. The parenthesis in the earlier comment should read: "backed by some segments of the population frightened or angered by propoganda"
Hari Chathrattil
Syracuse, USA
Oct 28, 2006 12:00 AM
244
Varun,
The notion that Kashmir is "occupied territory" can certainly be debated, but it is not an irrational or treasonous comment. And please do go deeper into the history of how each of the ex-princely states signed the Instrument of Accession, or how Sikkim became an Indian state. I have to admit that even now, I am somewhat unsettled when I see the map of India that I grew up with "defaced" in other countries by a different drawing of the "disputed territory" of Kashmir. Every time I hear or sing "Aye mere pyare watan" I am deeply moved. (Why this is so can be a very interesting discussion, but we will leave that for another day.) But that does not change the fact that for a great many (mostly justified) reasons, Kashmiris and many indigenous communities in the northeastern states have felt deeply alienated and deprived of any meaningful stake in the Indian nation. Kashmiris, including Kashmiri Hindus, most unfairly and brutally banished from their homes, should ultimately be allowed to decide their own fate. We can hope that if they are given a meaningful stake, they will feel they are Indians and opt to stay as part of India, but that is not the point. Will Kashmir become less beautiful, or its music and food less soulful and delicious, if at all it is not part of India? It is a fact that the so-called "tribals" in many countries, not just India, have not subscribed to the notion of nation or state, private ownership of land, and so on. It does not make them "backward" or "anti-national". I feel that one should not let oneself be caged by the concept of nationhood, or manipulated into feeling hatred and anger towards the "other".
Hari Chathrattil
Syracuse, USA
Oct 28, 2006 12:00 AM
243
Hari, while your post displays a deeper engagement with the subject than that of many on this forum, I must disagree with your approach in some ways.

1. You say that "terrorist" is a term exclusively applied to non-state actors. Is this really true? We're talking about a time when many many states habitually fund and support "non-state" militias in other states. Seen within the bounds of one state - yes, they are non-state. In a larger sense, they are very much "state" actors, part of a geo-political game. I would hazard that the fact that phrases like "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" are so popular, is because the "terrorist = anti-state" association is NOT as naturalized as you think it is. An equal amount of ideological labour goes into justfying and ennobling the efforts of these non-state actors, as is expended on their vilification. It just depends on which side of the conflict you find yourself invested in.

In accepting the definition of terrorist as "non-state", with the underlying assumption that the state is always oppressive, what you end up doing is equating all "non-state" struggles.

A bad move. Is there not some difference between LeT and the Maoists in terms of their interpretations of what the problem is and more importantly, what alternatives (if any) they envision?

Is it not responsible, as well as respectful to insist upon the reality of thse differences?

When, having defined "terrorost" as "non-state", and "non-state" as necessarily liberatory in a universally accepted way, you then say that all violence by non-state actors happens when when "injustices are perpetrated by those in power", you assume universal definitions of injustice. Some charming people kill other drivers for the injustice of overtaking them on the road.

So...what is injustice, and concomitantly, what is justice? Being trapped into a simplistic valorization of anything non-state is convenient. It saves one the trouble of actually taking a position or articulating a vision of what is in fact just, what kinds of social organization should aspire to, and why.

So - I appreciate that you've thought about these things at a deeper level than many, but still have a problem with the inadequacies of your approach in practical terms.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 28, 2006 12:00 AM
242

Hari, very nicely written message, and I agree with some things you say. However, this question of "alienation". What exactly are the people of Kashmir, Assam and Nagaland alienated about? And I'm leaving aside for now how many people are actually alienated. But it is one thing to be alienated, quite another to wage a gratuitously violent armed atruggle against the state. Remember that we are not talking about one violent act occurring every 6 months, committed by someone in in throes of uncontrollable desperation. Starting with the slaughter of Kashmiri Hindus, and continuing with murderous attacks on Amarnath pilgrims year after year, killing of more than 500 people during the Kashmir state election of 2002, kidnappings and killings of quite a few Kashmiri Moslems themselves, murders of tourists and so many more incidents( not to say of deaths of army and police personnel in the thousands), the cause has gone far beyond people feeling alienated. You will have to agree that on at least two issues, namely colonisation and suppression of local culture, the people cannot claim that India has been brutal. Every state in India has a large degree of freedom, including cultural freedom. Short of possessing the freedom to secede, it is difficult to see what India has supressed in any of these states.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 28, 2006 12:00 AM
241
>>>It is a fact that the so-called "tribals" in many countries, not just India, have not subscribed to the notion of nation or state, private ownership of land, and so on.

"State" and "private ownership of land" don't necessarily go together. So called "tribals" have always had a relationship with some kind of "state". Only an anthropological fantasy has designated them as never having had such a notion. The fact that so-called "tribals" appear as so-called "tribals" in literature dating back to before the common era (say, the Mauryan empire) indicates that even then, there existed such communities, and there existed states, and that the two organizational entities were in a relationship. We cannot assume a priori that any entity designated (by themselves or others) as a tribe, necessarily has, or should have, a relationship of antagonism to the idea of "state". Many so-called "tribals" in the north-east have benefited handsomely from the attempts of the Indian state to incorporate them. So-called "tribals" may even play various states against one another to maximise benefits.

>>>>It does not make them "backward" or "anti-national".

Backward, certainly not. Anti-national, yes, assuming that one uses that term in a purely descriptive manner. People who don't get emotionally stirred by the idea of a nation, are, "anti-national" in some sense. This is not necessari;y good or bad - it may be smart or stupid, depending on context.

Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 28, 2006 12:00 AM
240
Kudos to Ms.Roy for writing such an illuminating and well researched article, and also to Outlook for publishing the article in this jingoistic environment of today.Afzal is probably paying the price for being an ordinary Kashmiri muslim with no friends and powerful politicians to back him. But I still cann't help having a feeling that if Ms. Roy feels as strongly against the hanging as she writes, then why didn't she(and others) in the S.A.R. Geelani defence committee made sure that Md. Afzal at least gets a reasonable enough representation in the courts of law?Had she and others in the defence committee been more careful regarding the legal representation of the co-accused of Prof. Geelani,things could well have been very different for Md.Afzal today(and deprive the BJP and other such entities from whipping up passion in the way they are doing).
Rajesh Datta
Mhow, India
Oct 28, 2006 12:00 AM
239
Sundari,

Thanks for this most wonderful, thought-provoking comment. Every point you make is well taken, and, for my money, irrefutable. However, I was not making the implications that you have read into it, although I do stand corrected in many ways. There is no doubt that my post could have definitely been more clearly and carefully written, and I place on record, once more, my gratitude for your elucidating that so well. I was, so to speak, pitching it a different level, trying to complicate matters a bit, but not too much. And if this does, in any way, sound condescending to anyone, my apologies for that as well.

When I said that “terrorist” is a term almost exclusively applied to non-state actors, I was not denying the state’s support and backing for many “non-state” militias. I was also not taking the terrorist = anti-state association as naturalized, and trying to promote the notion that the state is always oppressive and that all non-state struggles are equal. The point I was trying to make, and evidently not succeeding, was that these words and their meanings are sites of constant negotiation, and an expression of power, exercised to influence and formulate public opinion.

And yes, it is both responsible and respectful to insist upon the reality of differences between, say, the LeT and the Maoists. The way they were lumped together was that I, personally, cannot advocate violence as a tool for change. But I cannot, at the same time, pass judgment calls about the tactics the Iraqi insurgent or the Palestinian suicide bomber chooses to fight oppression.

You have made me realize that I was indeed being somewhat simplistic, but there was no reading intended of non-state as essentially liberatory or that all violence by non-state actors are a reaction to state-perpetrated injustices.

Not to continue in this vein about other issues that you have raised, but when I say that the “tribals” do not subscribe to the idea of a nation-state, it does not preclude negotiations with some kind of state, and that they are not necessarily anti-national meant that the relationship does not have to be antagonistic. It is that their way of lives do not depend on notions taken for granted by other communities. It also helps, sometimes, to be anti-national in the sense of not getting emotionally stirred by the idea of a nation, in order to better understand, accommodate and/or negotiate with another point of view.

And Varun, I think it would be fair to say that the people feeling alienated are doing so for a combination of myriad reasons, cultural, social, economical, historical and political in nature, and the Indian state has failed to respond imaginatively to it. While there is no doubt that outsiders like the ISI have taken advantage of the situation to foment further unrest and violence, Indian state actors have also indulged in major human rights violations, worsening the problem and the feeling of alienation. I would agree with you that willful colonization and suppression of culture has not taken place, but these are sometimes structurally-embedded in the business of governance.

Hari Chathrattil
Syracuse, USA
Oct 28, 2006 12:00 AM
238
Mr. Hari Chathrattil, I am with you that debate reaches a much higher plane if it is free of vitriol and abuse. However, we need to look at the reasons for the crude and rude level of postings, including some of my own I must admit.

It begins with 1940 and the Pakistan Resolution which created the 'Two-Nation' Concept. It was catalysed by the happenings of 1947 and 1948. It was exacerbated by three or four Wars, and the rhetoric that continues.

The 'Hate Baggage' has become so heavy on our individual shoulders that most of us have been unable to push it off. Of course, the Nations of South Asia have a vested interest in allowing the Status Quo to continue or, at best, to change at tortoise speed.

After I retired in 2000, I got the opportunity to travel the world more freely and frequently. I noticed that outside South Asia, we share a great Camaradarie with each other. The hate begins when we step down in Mumbai, Karachi and Dhaka.

You may conclude that the postings on this Forum belie my conclusion. I do not think so. Rants and Raves is here for us to blow steam and vent spleen. Sadly we do not place a cap on some of our outbursts.

I also took up writing on Socio-Economic Issues facing South Asia. These are published in Karachi and Dhaka. I use Outlook India as the 'Sounding Board' for India.

My experience has largely been non-productive here. This is because most Indians find it difficult to believe that Bangladesh and Pakistan can be ahead of India in anything. Most Indian postings harp on democracy or rather the absence of it and terrorism, and, now, Islam-bashing. They are unwilling to understand there is more to the World than these three things, and that harping on them will vitiate the atmosphere further.

Your posting was a breathe of fresh air. Hence this elaborate reply.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 28, 2006 12:00 AM
237
had arundathi roy channelised the same amount of energy,imagination and creativity into writing a fiction/novel,probably that would have fetched another booker prize.the only part with which one can agree with her is the last page of the article-the problem in kashmir.the rest of it is just absurd.....it is better if mr.vinod mehta asks her to stick to fiction writing...
sanjay.k.masaraddi
mysore, india
Oct 28, 2006 12:00 AM
236
Jaleel,

"Anyway, my question is: if a rss/vhp man were convicted of the"

What a joke ? Is it feasible in India ?

Aziz
Pune, India
Oct 28, 2006 12:00 AM
235
Nice story. But how about some solid proof? Your evidence seems to be as flimsy as the one that you have portrayed the prosecution's evidence to be. Lots of conspiracy theories, lots of drama, tear jerking torture moments. But sorry, I choose to stick to our boys' version of things. And, please, let's not be idiotic. Kashmir is an integral part of India. So stop referring to it as India and Kashmir, like they are separate.
Aninda Sardar
Calcutta, India
Oct 28, 2006 12:00 AM
234


http://www.asianage.com...d=254420&RF=DefaultMain


Jaswant heckled by Berkeley students 10/27/2006 11:43:19 PM
- By arrangement with AKI


Berkeley (California), Oct. 27: A speech by former external affairs minister Jaswant Singh at the University of California, Berkeley, turned tense on Thursday as dozens of protesters stormed the hall where Mr Singh, Leader of the Opposition in the Rajya Sabha, was due to speak. He was due to give a speech on the rise of India and China as Asian powers when nearly 50 dissenters, including local Sikhs and Muslims, surrounded him, shouting: "You cannot apologise for genocide." They were referring to the 2002 Gujarat riots. Mr Singh was then external affairs minister in the government of Atal Behari Vajpayee.

Organisers at Berkeley tried to disperse the protesters, which included community members as well as students, but failed. Activists managed to stall the event for over half an hour. They distributed leaflets among the increasingly impatient audience of about 100 people, many of whom reacted angrily at the interruption.

"This is a democracy, we have an invited guest so let him speak," shouted one student in the audience. A dissenter replied that having Mr Singh deliver a speech was like leaving the floor open to a "Nazi criminal". As tensions mounted, the police was called in but didn’t immediately intervene.

Protesters, led by Randeep Singh, a philosophy student at UC Berkeley, were allowed to talk for a few minutes, on the condition that they would then let Mr Singh deliver his lecture.

"I am honoured to be here despite the excitement of the beginning," a calm Jaswant Singh said as he took the stage.

After a brief speech on ties between India and China — two countries that are "poised for economic growth and cannot afford conflict" — the senior BJP leader insisted on taking some questions from the audience, but was told by security officials at the event that it was better for him to leave.

Mr Singh refused. "This is an educational institution, I have never requested special security arrangements and I certainly will not now," he said.

About 10 police officers eventually escorted the Indian leader out via the back exit as activists waited for him at the main entrance of International House on UC Berkeley’s campus, where the event was held. (AKI)

Aziz
Pune, India
Oct 27, 2006 12:00 AM
233
Arundhati Roy is able to see the larger picture of Kashmiri youth's difficulty to connect with pan-nationalisms which see them only as "tools" in their "jingoistic" machinations.
shajahan
Chennai, India
Oct 27, 2006 12:00 AM
232
Ms Arundhati Roy campaigned for saving Mr Geelani but she didnot think it fit to do same thing for Mr Afzal? She could have provided whatever assistance Mr Afzal required for proving his innocence.
pksatpathi
vizag, India
Oct 27, 2006 12:00 AM
231
Having read the article (and all the comments that it has elicited), I would like to point out the obvious. Whatever its demerits may be, at the very minimum, the article clearly makes a valid point: that purely on legal grounds, the case against Afzal is flawed. His innocence is not being claimed, they are being placed in a larger context. An unseemly hurry for closure without a full enquiry that would put all the facts about the parliamentary attacks before the public is suspicious. For those who have heaped a lot of irrational opprobrium on Ms. Roy consistently, I would like to point to an eloquent, well researched plea made by Arun Shourie, on the other side of the political aisle from Roy, for one person sentenced to death in the Indira Gandhi assasination case by Arun Shourie. If memory serves me right, the Supreme Court had in that instance virtually admitted its fault, and clearly expressed that the President could make amends by pardoning the accused. That, unfortunately, did not happen. Terrorism does not take place in a vacuum, and it cannot be denied or ignored that many actions by many States also fall under the same rubric.

All efforts to hold those accountable for perpetrating injustice including through terrorist acts, whether they are committed by or against Hindus, Muslims or Christians - need to be lauded. Arundhati Roy has been an outstanding public citizen by taking up so many crucial issues facing India and the world today.
Hari Chathrattil
Syracuse
Hari Chathrattil
Syracuse, USA
Oct 27, 2006 12:00 AM
230
>>Terrorism does not take place in a vacuum

Great. So what we do now ? Let us dig the root cause and examine it. If the root cause is not suiting vote-bank politics or our pseudo-secular pseudo-liberal attitude, lets look for the root cause of the root cause. This process will repeat untill we find a convenient "root" which satisfy all the vote-bank politics and our pseudo-secularism pseudo-liberalism.

India was under slavery for neraly 1 thosand years. We just need to read the pseudo-liberals and it will be crystal clear what was the cause of our slavery.

Anyway, my question is: if a rss/vhp man were convicted of the similar crime, how A Roy would have behaved ? Will she write an 11 page article for the questions unanswered ? Probably she will do the reverse , she will scold the govt for not hanging the convict as soon as possible.

Arundhati has something to shout agsinst the govt, the opposition, rss/vhp, print and electronic media and all. But she will never ustter a word against some people. The terror of the devil is such that many intellectuals will never even dream of saying something against them.

The terror is not imaginary and they are driven by the purest form of hatred for all who follows some other faith.


http://www.ndtv.com/top...20596&category=National
jaleel
luknow, India
Oct 27, 2006 12:00 AM
229
How about a few pages of retrospecive campaign against the death sentence on Nathruam Godse? To help Ms. Roy, Godse has left behind his own justifications for his act, during the trial. She can start from where Godse left and write eloquent prose (for example, the govt. under Jawaharlal Nehru was confronted with several problems in the aftermath of partition and hence, the ploy of a diversion in the form of an attack on Gandhiji etc.).
KVjayan
Chennai, India
Oct 27, 2006 12:00 AM
228
Why these idiots did not fight when IPC instead of POTA was being applied to Afzal's case? Why did A. Roy did not fight for the larger picture when the cases were pending at trial, HC and SC and only Gilani, Shaukat and Afzal were their subject matter? There is no point in delaying Afzal's execution as he has nothing to add in the so called conspiracy of STF. If A. Roy and her ilk has enough evidence they should have filed a PIL long back when only Gilani, Shaukat and Afzal were on trial. What were they waiting for?

The SC verdict was out on August 4, 2005, almost a year from now, where were these who are demanding a larger picture and so called truth for the entire year? All of these have come to the fore only when the date for his hanging was declared clearly indicates there is only conspiracy to get maximum PUBLICITY mileage. For whoever supreme being you believe in please let him rest in peace for his sins, sooner the better, and then fight for the truth which according to A. Roy is likely to come out by questioning


1. 'Witness Akbar' (PW 62), Mohd Akbar, Head Constable, Parimpora Police Station, the one who helped arrest Afzal and Shaukat &
2. the J&K policeman who signed the Seizure Memo at the time of Afzal and Shaukat's arrest.

Why, afzal must have told arundhati and haksar what those questions are? And if he hasn't then what has already been on record as 11 witnesses they may all be wrong and fraud on throughtout the three tiers of justice.


(i) Hideout at 2nd floor, A-97, Gandhi Vihar (PW34)

(ii) Hideout at 2nd floor, 281, Indira Vihar (PW31 & PW32)

(iii) Shop of PW4-- Anil Kumar from where Ammonium Nitrate was purchased.

(iv) Shop of PW42--Ramesh Advani from where Silver powder was purchased.

(v) Shop of PW41-- Ajay Kumar, Sawan Dry Fruits from where dry fruits were purchased.

(vi) Shop of PW43-- Sunil Kumar Gupta at Fatehpuri where Sujata Mixer was purchased.

(vii) Shop at Hamilton Road from where red light was purchased.

(viii) Shop of PW29 --Gupta Auto Deals from where motorcycle HR51E5768 was purchased.

(ix) Shop of PW44-- Sandeep Chaudhary at Ghaffar Market from where Sony cellphone was purchased.

(x) Shop of PW20-- Harpal Singh at Karol Bagh from where Ambassador Car bearing DL 3CJ 1527 was purchased.

(xi) Shop of PW49--Kamal Kishore from where Motorola cell phone and a SIM card were purchased.

SC verdict

http://www.outlookindia...804&fname=geelani&sid=6



Sr. Vikas
New York, United States
Oct 27, 2006 12:00 AM
227
Hari Chathrattil, it's irrational, not to mention anti-national and virtually treasonous, for Arundhati Roy to call Kashmir 'occupied territory'. So she should expect the same consideration. If Kashmir is occupied, so is every other ex-princely state. So is India itself. India wasn't founded on the basis of religious hatred and ethno-chauvinism (i.e the martial races nonsense) so a non-Hindu majority being part of a Hindu majority country is not the least bit extraordinary at all. Except to anti-nationals.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 26, 2006 12:00 AM
226
There is nothing strange about a man convicted by our judicial system for committing an act of terror against India to be convicted by a death sentence. The efficacy of capital punishment is not at issue here, the current law provides for it and if one wants the law changed then there are legal ways to do that. Having exceptions to the Law is not the appropriate way to go about it.

The gentleman in question should be afforded the full opportunity to appeal against the judgement via the various channels provided by law.
Let us not forget that hard states take tough decisions and soft state tend to put problems under the rug. Ms. Roy it is very easy to be a populist from the outside. Try your hand at responsibilty to round up your approach to handle problems. Your writings reflect the thinking of a fanatic not different from a right wing fanatic or a left wing fanatic. Some balance in your writing would make you more crible at least to a person who has experienced life in 2 continents.
ARUN SHARAN
CHANDIGARH, India
Oct 26, 2006 12:00 AM
225
Aziz,

I wanted to respond to your comment earlier. You had said that India was a balkanized state much before the British came. I am assuming that by that comment you are justifying the balkanization of India. If that is true, people like you should not be surprised when others question your loyalty towards the country.

Now, I am not going by your name - because proponents of balkanization of India come from all religions - Arundhati is a prime example. However, a casual perusal of popular media and such forums will show (although unscientifically) that larger percentage of Muslims tend to be welcoming of that idea than people from other communities. Others who belong to that group are JNU secularists, harcore Christian evangelists na dmisguided Marxists.

While I can respect all viewpoints - some viewpoints cannot be excused under freedom of speech. Advocating the breaking up of India falls under that category. It is simply treasonous. Period. You are fairly warned. Next time you indulge in such talk, consider yourself to be fair game to be called a traitor.

FYI..the idea of India is much older than the British. Bharatvarsh and Aryavarta mentioned in Hindu scriptures consisted of a much larger landmass than today's india. If on account of being a Muslim/JNU/Evangelical Christian, you have not been exposed to those ideas since they were in 'Hindu' books, then I suggest you educate yourself.

You can't escape the fact - Hindu identity defines India even though Indian identity is all inclusive and broader. It is in eeryone's interest to be appreciative of this Hindu identity and make peace with it instead of attacking it at every turn.
Ravi
Denver, USA
Oct 26, 2006 12:00 AM
224
Mr. Ravi, how does saying that India was once Balkanised imply the one wishes that it will be Balkanised again?. In any case, one day India like Pakistan will be Balklanised on ethnic or linguistic basis. Bangladesh is more fortunate in that it speaks one language and is largely Muslim. I do not believe that Religion will be material to this exercise.

Let us consider Iraq, as a parting short before withdrawal, the U. S. A. will create a 'Loose Cofederation' on Ethno-Religious' lines. This is a peculiar case. For the rest of us etnicity or language will be sufficient requirement to assert our separateness. As for the 'minorities' they will vote with their feet or will be 'ghettoised'.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
223
Arundhati's well written article on Afzal hanging has suerely angered right wing facists who have no point to counter her except abuse anyone and everyone who do not agree with their point of view. In a civilised society (like switzerland) even the thought of judicial killing (exterminating a person by order of court) of a criminal is considered a barbaric act. All those who are calling for Afzal's death (including the judges), will, in a civilized world be considered mentally unfit and sent to psychiatric treatment. Even drug addicts like Mr. Mahajan (who for all practical purpose is insane)are calling for Afzal's death sentence.... what a sick joke...
It is a pre-requisite to transform into a productive and humanitarian society to sustain economic well being. Indian right wing facists (also known as Hitler's children) should come to terms with modern day reality i.e. a humanitarian society to deal with criminals.
Jai Hind
Saraswathi
Zurich, Switzerland
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
222
writing a long article does not make a terrosrist a saint.

Guru should be hanged or shot in public period
Ramprasad Yamijala
Chennai, India
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
221
It's interesting to read another story by Arundhati Roy written in the typical Pluitzer prize winning manner. Maybe thats the trick of winning Pluitzer if you are of Indian origin - condemn India and the people it stand for. Time and again Ms Roy has proven this. But lets talk of the current 'story'. Should she plan to elaborate it further, she might be able to produce a NewYork Best seller with Indian Govt as the main terrorist who engineered attack on Parliament for (she will think of some reason too).
Before pointing out that Indian armed forces are commiting atrocities please have a reasoning as to why it has started at first place. Try to reason out these things with Kashmiris who are refugee within their own country - and mind it they are Hindus. Maybe for a change try to write a 'story' about them.
Ajay
Mumbai, India
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
220
" Maybe thats the trick of winning Pluitzer if you are of Indian origin - condemn India and the people it stand for"

More broadly, the trick for winning Pulitzer is to undermine one's own country and sing praises about commies and liberals.Walter Duranty whitewashed the Stalinist crimes and was awarded the Pulitzer. In recent years, Pulitzer has gone to people in US who have leaked secret pgms that target enemies.

As Ted Turner said recently, he could not decide which side to take in the war on terror. Because as you can see, that would prevent the CNN journalists from being "objective". It would prevent them from saying both sides of the story. The great Pinch of the NYT actually said he would not save an american soldier from North vietnamese because he had gone there to kill them. He did not think much about the life of an American soldier. And that dude holds an American citizenship(unless he has become French)! And that dude is the publisher of the paper that sets the liberal agenda in US and generally around the world. Guardian, Hindu and most papers simply repeat the NYT on many issues.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
219
Pulitzer? Hmm. I don't think any more comment is necessary. Next perhaps there would be some sermons on Bookers and hookers too?
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
218
Jaleel,

"Very true. But we Muslims do the worst. We believe Arabs are the most superior people on Earth and only a Quraish can be a Khilafa. How we offer our young girls to old Arabs is a well known fact."

Maybe in your family. Last time I checked it was a localized phenomena in Hyderabad. People dont marry ouside their caste and you are talking about foreigners. The claim about Quraish is crap. If you have read a tiny bit of history, you would not make that claim. Stop masquerading!
Aziz
Pune, India
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
217
nandu

"do not beleive in science. only hinduism beleive in evolution. all the ten avtaars represent evolution"

Correct me if I am wrong wasn't one of the 10 avatar was a Boar ?
Aziz
Pune, India
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
216
Jaleel,

"Here I want to raise a point. Why do we hate the Jews from the bottom of our hearts ? The answer is- Jews are far superior to all the Muslims in all respects. In the past we were at least militarilly stronger than the jews as we vastly outnumbered them."

So you believe Jews are chosen people and others are just Goyims(something close to animals). That goes directly against the faith which says that all human beings are born equal. Either renew your faith or stop masquerading!
Aziz
Pune, India
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
215
>> "...only hinduism beleive in evolution. all the ten avtaars represent evolution"

Do people who invent and stretch fancifully serve the cause of Hinduism? Or are they going to make a laughing stock out of a good religion?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
214
>> Why do we hate the Jews from the bottom of our hearts ?

Jaleel, speak for yourself.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
213
Jaleel,

"Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism don't believe in that. If we go by the Hindu scriptures, the Arabs were Hindus and later they had to accept Islam in the seventh century. The conversions of the Meccans or the most of Arabs were not friendly affairs, Traditions and history prove that"

What a load of crap. Contrary to belief in India not all the idol worshippers are hindus. They have different belief systems. People everywhere one time or other worshipped idols. That doesnt make them hindus. Next you will say that greek and romans were hindus because they worshipped idols.
Aziz
Pune, India
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
212
Nandu,

One of my acquaintance told me how 10 avatars came about. They were created by brahmins to bring in different communities. Like Krishna for cattle rearing people, fish for pwoplw who worshipped fish, Boar for people who worshipped Boar etc.
Aziz
Pune, India
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
211
Nandu

"The Vested Property Act first appeared in 1965, when Bangladesh was part of Pakistan. It was at that time called the "Enemy Property Act." In that year, war broke out between India and Pakistan. The law was directed primarily against the property of the numerous Hindus who had temporarily fled to India in fear. The state was enabled to take their property into custody, with the rationale that a Hindu who went to India was an 'enemy of the state'."

Same thing happened in India. I have seen these properties.
Aziz
Pune, India
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
210
Nandu,

"you are from pakistan. do you have quotas for minorities like hindus, sikhs or budhists?. do your politians appease the minorities just for votes?"

They have separate seats and they dont vote on other seats. I hope that is applied in India too. Then we can have at least seats comparable to the % of population.
Aziz
Pune, India
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
209
More on the media matters, NYT recently sang praises about Tokyo Rose after she died. She was supposed to be victim of a witch hunt. She was convicted for a single remark she made during the war."orphans of the pacific! You are really orphans now. How will you get home now that your ships have sunk"?

For that remark, made during the war, she was charged with treason and was convicted for six years. And as can be expected, the NYT finds nothing objectionable in the remark she made.Great injustice has been done to her. Ofcourse her remarks were meant to demoralise the troops during war but so what? In the ethics system of NYT, she is a victim. I dont know whether they called it a patriotic remark but wont be surprised if they did.

Because patriotism is being critical of troops and demoralising them during the time of war. Anyone who opposes that definition of patriotism is a right wing extremist who wants to curb free speech(throw in terms like neocon, neoneocon for good measure).

Journalism is one industry where there is a lot of freedom but no accountability. No one takes them to task. The Beirut bombings of 1983 can be indirectly linked to journalists. As Katherine Graham, published or Washington Post said later-they got to know that Americans knew the frequency terrorists were using. Reporters got wind of this and published the story inspite of requests from the govt. The terrorists stopped using that frequency and within weeks the barracks bombings happened.

Even after such a glorious record, papers like NYT and Post keep leaking secret pgms without giving a damn. And there is practically no way to make them acountable. Any action will be seen as an attack on free press.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
208
Ganesan says.

>> NYT recently sang praises about Tokyo Rose after she died

It was a standard obituary. There were no praises.

>> Journalism is one industry where there is a lot of freedom but no accountability

You want that changed? Maybe abolish the First Amendment?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
207
The Outlook Editor

I think the ban on Old Mac is an extreme step. I recommend reinstatement of his posting privileges with a warning not to make any homophobic/sexist comments.

regards
prakash
Sydney, Australia
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
206
For whatever it is worth, I too back the call by Prakash from Sydney on reinstating posting previledges of Old Mac. He used to stay onto the point and provided a fresher/different view on issues. Probably he can be given a warning on toning down his personal attacks (I think people who visit this forum are adults who are supposed to be capable of defending themselves with no need to run onto editor uncle or moderator with cries of "look editor uncle, Old Mac slapped me. Please give him a slap on the wrist", and the editor uncle having to oblige to the requests of the shrillest of these cries)
Akhil
Chicago, United States
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
205

In 1989...I was only 20... returned without training... I put down my gun and enrolled myself in Delhi University.... (I kept the gun for four years)... in 1993 whithout ever having been a practising militant (without killing anyone), I voluntarily surrendered to the BSF.. that is when my nightmare began... (It never occurred to me since I was not a practising terrorist then why surrender? simple, because I wanted to brand myself a 'TERRORIST')

>>I live in Sopre J&K

>>in the year 2000 Army used to harass me almost daily (i.e., seven years after I surrendered guns.)

I took mohammad to Delhi, then accompanied with him for white ambassador, then placed order for amm. nitrate and second day went to collect it and the witness shopkeeper is lying to police and the judges, the two phones and sims I bought were one for me and the other for my wife. My purpose to come to Delhi was that I got a job in Delhi(?) / I wanted to open up business and my business required two phones and 50 kilo amm. nitrate. Mohammad wanted to go abroad...(now he is in jannat?) but he also wanted to learn driving so I helped him get a white ambassador.. we did not like other colors.


While cross examinations and identification of the slain terrorists I decided not to recognize Mohammad because then it will go against me.


Because Akbar helped apprehend me and shaukat, I must charge him in the collection of Rs. 5000/- ransom.

a picture emerging of someone who could be a key player.

1. 'Witness Akbar' (PW 62), Mohd Akbar, Head Constable, Parimpora Police Station, the one who helped arrest me &
2. the J&K policeman who signed the Seizure Memo at the time of my arrest. (these two/three people know the entire plot and STF conspiracy)


Actually, I made all the arrangement to kill more than 2000 (545 MP+ MLCs, IAS, IPS, commondo, support secretarial and security staff in the parliament building). But now they are not killed, only 10 security police died so I have cancelled my plans to go to Jannat for just 10 security men. President please please please consider my petition.


sd/-
Afzal,
Sr. Vikas
New York, United States
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
204
I too would support Prakash's recommendation regarding Old Mac. Since this is the second time he has been banned, a period of exclusion of 7 to 14 days together with a warning should be sufficient.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
203
>>a period of exclusion of 7 to 14
>>days together with a warning
>>should be sufficient.

I think something like this is a practical policy that Outlook could consider. The problem, though seems to be the fixation with sexual innuendo/imagery apart from the sexist and homophobic terminology which is not only offensive which is aggravated by a stubborn denial to even consider the possibility that it is not in the least funny. I have been told by a lot of friends, who even by a long shot could not be accused of being prissy about such things that they find it deeply offensive that a supposedly progressive and liberal website such as this one allows such characters to persist in their aggravating behaviour.

On the other hand, it is also true that there are many other posters who far more flagrantly continue to post irrelevant nonsense which could be tolerated within limits as yet another perspective but its repetitive nature totally distorts the signal to noise ratio. Perhaps time for us all to suggest more practical solutions?

I am beginning to feel that the typical response from Outlook is going to be to take this to the Freespeech area and oh yes, that helpless "help us to help us keep this area unmoderated" plea or a threat to make it totally moderated.

It'll be deja vu all over again. One banned member has already thrown a hissy fit and a righteously indignant tantrum, but like in the past will perhaps soon be back. On the other hand, much as one is irked by such holier than thou charlatans, or the repetitive spammers like Babu or trolls like Joseph one also begins to miss the other old regular "one-message in various variations" specialists such as Lalit Bagai.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
202
I did mean self-righteously indignant...
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
201
Aziz:"One of my acquaintance told me how 10 avatars came about. They were created by brahmins":

Your acquaintance is very much deficient in mind and spirit. They were not created by the brahmins, but perceived by the seers of ancient India. Some clarification may be in order.

In the initial stages of universal evolution, from the Absolute vacuous space, hydrogen atoms [naaraah] as basic particles of matter [aparaa prakriti] are released. Simultaneously, the higher spiritual power [paraa Sakti] is also released.. These are otherwise known as diti and aditi respectively, opposites of eachother, will cancel eachother and recreate vacuum to end manifestation at God’s will.
[divye titikshaa yasyaah saa, iti ditih. diti, [matter] resists absorption back into the absoute. aditi keeps matter in control as gravitational force, gauree gagana-dhaariNee. It is like kids tying balls to rubber strings and throwing them, string provides the balance against centrifugal force]

Eventally gravity forces matter to form large celestial bodies; those whose weight exceeded the chandrasekhar limit developed fusion and became suns [stars, aadityas, suras] with divinized souls, others [daityas, asuras] developed demonized negative spirits, pulling the remaining matter in opposite directions in the milky-way galaxy [ksheera saagara]; the absolute took His first avataara called koorma or tortoise or fulcrum, around which the alternate pulls took place. This avataara created the divine and demonic spirits. [to continue]
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
200
Aziz, continuing: Eventally gravity forces matter to form large celestial bodies; those whose weight exceeded the chandrasekhar limit developed fusion and became suns [stars, aadityas, suras] with divinized souls, others [daityas, asuras] developed demonized negative spirits, pulling the remaining matter in opposite directions in the milky-way galaxy [ksheera saagara]; the absolute took His first avataara called koorma or tortoise or fulcrum, around which the alternate pulls took place. This avataara created the divine and demonic spirits.

Within our solar system, the Lord took an all-beauty form, the asuras were distracted, the suras got blessed with immortality and as spiritual controllers of lives on the earth, as the divines populating the neighbourhood of planet jupiter. Saturn was formed on the sun's shadow on othe other side of jupiter, the demon souls of the daityas took shelter in Saturn and his rings. Mercury and venus from the sun and mars from the earth were also created. Along with the moon, the divine mother-force took the blesser and bearer roles as the Sreedevi and Bhoodevi operatives of the divine will in earth, jeeva-yaani or Geos, with climate suitable for living beings.
The spin of the earth made the water on it to form an ice-cone called meru-parvata, populated by the divines on the north and seven ridges with limited water populated by the demons, on the south. Early maanavas from manu and maanavati lived in the middle spaces., protected by the divines from north and harassed by the demons from the south. A totality of the divines, taking a female form called Devee, faught out the demons and pushed them to the southernmost paataala Antarctica region. Two basically powerful divines were cursed to take mortal births, became very powerful kings on earth. Hiranyaaksha caused disconnect between humans and spiritual knowledge, besides largescale flooding.Matsya or fish avataara, restored human spirituality, besides creating the mutation into the mongol or yellow race of humans with fish-like eyes. When Hiranyaaksha again caused flooding due to eco-damage, the Varaha or boar avatara on kaalaraatri night [Colorado river], lifted the earth and icecone back into position, mutating the birth of the brown race of Indians, American Indians etc. To kill his brother Hiranya kasipu, the man-lion avatara took place, creating the mutation of the white race with lion-like face/hair. To subdue his great-grand son Bali and send him and his people deep south into Africa., the Vamana or dwarf avatara was there to mutate the formation of the black race of pigmies. By His growth into trivikrama, the Lord showed that man can grow into merger with the almighty Absolute through yoga etc. Thus, while the tortoise-figuritive avatara brought the divines/demons in action, the fish, boar, man-lion and dwarf avataras mutated the four races.[to continue]
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
199
Aziz, continuing: When bhageerata prayed for the ganga to come down to bless the spirits of his ancestors, the ice-cone melted, filled the southern ridges, causing the biblical floods. The progeny of Adam/eve from the garden of Eden came by Noah’s arc and settled as the Arabic race in the middle east. When the rulers became very arrogant and cruel, the parasu-raama braamahana god-entuned scholar-caste avataara took place as example for Brahmins. Later, Rama Avatara took place to remove Ravana and set an example for rulers as kshatriya caste, living/fighting only for justice for the people.Two thousand years later, Krishna Avataara as a vaisya-caste example, blessed the cowherds/farmers before killing Kamsa, creating dwaraka and leading to the success of virtue at the end of the kurukshtra war. In the very middle of the 2200-yrs kaliyuga dark ages for the earth, the Lord appeared as a vagabond soodra and became Venkateswara in Tirupathi , kalki avataara, to guide the earth into the forward sweta-varaaha kalpa. In the mean time, Bramha as Abraham and Indra as Moses and Kaalabhairava as the giver of the ten commandments, provided guidance to the yadavs settle as yudas in Jerusalem as practioners of Judaism. At the end of kaliyuga-dvaya, around 600bc, the gnaana-avataara of Buddha took place to restore spirituality from foolish ritualism in the name of religion and culture; Lord Siva came as Sankara to correct Buddhism from its excessive abstractions and to launch Jesus as the Skanda-reborn deity for post-Roman Europe and the west, as an action/devotion/wisdom path of caste-free socio-dynamics. Kumbhakarna appears as Saul, becomes St.Paul to propagate Christianity. After 500 yrs, when the jeers of Tirupathi fail to lift Padmavati uphill as expected on completion of kali yuga periods [they multiply 1200 by 365 and start saying kaliyuga will last over 4 lakh yrs!], she is born as Fatima in Arabia, with Ravana as her dad Mohammed, to atone for his sins against Sita as Ravana, thus blessing the birth of Islam in the middle-east. Islam itself comes to India, she {padmavati,Fatima] is born again as a moghal princess and merges back with Sri Rangnantha in Srirangam. Baber makes the mistake of attacking Ayodhya, puts islam on the retractive path, to be possibly merged with devotional Shia Saivism by 2600 AD.
With Jesus also returning into re-identity with Skanda in Hinduism at the end of the second millennium, the spiritual unity of the world into a single religion of man is well on the way to fruition. In the mean time, the vigjnaana avataara of Vishnu as the jewish scientist Dr. Einstein [single-stone absolute], with sister named Maaya, meaning the relativist cosmic-mother-power, the theory of relativity and matter-energy conversion knoweldge has also been given to mankind, as a means for energy security. May God bless all of us..
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
198
The cunning Foxeph from Terroristan says
“India is with Sudan in the Hunger Index. India is below Pakistan in the GDP Index”

The fact is that you can never believe the statistics produced by the Pakistan Government. Here is an article written by FORMER PAKISTAN FINANCE MINISTER SARTAJ AZIZ questioning the economic growth figures under the military Government

The military regime claims that, the per capita income has doubled in the last six years with an average growth rate of 5% per year. Adjusting to the population growth of 2% year , the increase in per capita income should be around only 20% and not 100% in six years.

But in terroristan any thing can happen!!!
sreejith
bangalore, india
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
197
Per capita income and poverty reduction
by SARTAJ AZIZ


part 1/ 2


On Thursday the 20 July 2006, President Musharraf addressed the nation and spoke at some length on economic issues and government achievements in different sub sectors. Soon after the address, Mr Kamran Khan of Geo News asked for my comments by telephone. During my comments, I mentioned two statements, which did not appear to be factually correct: that per capita income in Pakistan had doubled in the past six years, that the rate of poverty had declined from 34.5% in 2000-02 to 23.9% or by almost 31 percent in 4 years.

I pointed out the average annual GDP growth rate in the past 6 years, according to official data is about 5 percent (2.0, 3.1, 4.7, 7.5, 8.6, 6.6% respectively). Adjusting for population growth of 2% per annum, the average increase in per capita income would be only 3%. At this rate it will take 24 years to double the per capita income. In 6 years, the increase would be only 20%. In view of the growing income inequalities however this will mean an improvement of about 30% in the income of the top 20% households and only 10% for the bottom 20% households.

Similarly on poverty, with accelerated growth during 2001-05, some reduction in poverty has certainly occurred but cannot be so large. The World Bank and UNDP have also questioned these estimates. The best course for the government would be to release the data and survey results on which these estimates are based.

The next day, Dr Ashfaq Hasan Khan, Advisor on Finance, appeared personally on the same TV Channel and said, with due apologies he would like to correct me: On per capita income, he said, I was referring to real growth in per capita income, while President Musharraf had mentioned the growth in per capita income in dollars term which had gone up from $527 in 1999-2000 to $847 in 2005-06.

On poverty Dr Ashfaq Khan read out a press statement to show that the World Bank and UNDP had endorsed the estimate of poverty reduction prepared by the Planning Commission and quoted by the President.

I do not find these explanations professionally sound or factually accurate. If Dr Ashfaq Hasan Khan would refer to the textbooks he studied for his PhD, he would discover that growth in per capita income invariably refers to GDP per capita in real terms. Whenever the term per capita income is used in another context, like in current market prices, it has to be expressly stated. When these figures are converted into dollars, these are closer to data in real terms because the rate of inflation in Pakistan is generally higher than that in USA. That is why even in dollar terms, per capita income cannot double in six years.

The apparent anomaly has arisen because in 2003-04, the government changed the basis of estimating GDP/GNP. That is why the figure of per capita income in current prices jumps from $501 in 2000-01 to $736 in 2004-05 and $847 in 2005-06. But the two figures are not comparable because of the change in the basis of calculation. The World Development Report 2005 published by the World Bank gives the per capita national income of only $470 for 2003-04.
sreejith
bangalore, india
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
196
Per capita income and poverty reduction
By SARTAJ AZIZ


part 2/ 2


Regarding poverty estimates may I draw his attention to a front page story in an english daily of 20 June 2006 under the heading "WB, UNDP question poverty estimates." In a subsequent op-ed piece in NEWS of 10 July 2006, the World Bank Country Director, Mr John Wall says: "An inescapable problem is that even with no differences in the surveys themselves and in the poverty line, adjusting for price changes between periods to make poverty lines comparable bristles with difficulties.

This is particularly so in Pakistan, where there are serious flaws with the two price indices available. One is the consumer price index (CPI), which deals with many commodities of consumption but covers only urban areas; it does not capture price changes in rural areas where the bulk of the poor live. The other, the Survey Based Index (SBI) of prices has the advantage of being collected at the same time from the same households as the consumption data. A comparable survey using the same poverty line in 1998-99, 2000-01 and 2004-05, adjusted by both the CPI and SPI revealed the following: According to both measures, poverty headcount had been rising throughout the 1990s and peaked in 2000-01, a bad drought year. It then fell sharply in 2004-05, a very good agricultural crop year. Under the CPI, poverty headcount dropped by 10.6 percent, under the SBI it dropped five percent."

The article then asks, "How can poverty drop so sharply in just four years? How can the same data yield such different results due to different estimates of the same thing - price changes? The answer is that incomes of a very large portion of the population are just above and just below the official poverty line.

Compared to 2000-01, the consumption distribution has improved substantially in 2004-05, meaning almost all families are better off. The fact that there is an enormous clustering of population around the poverty line means that even small changes in consumption of income can affect poverty headcount ratios dramatically."
The World Bank document on which this article is based concludes as follows:

"We strongly recommend using the TPI based inflation to update the 2000-01 poverty lines for 2004-05, which yields a poverty headcount of 29.2%; the resulting decline in poverty between 2000-01 and 2004-05 will therefore be 5.2 percentage points."

I cannot believe that Dr Ashfaq Hasan Khan did not have access to these articles or documents. The credibility of data released by government has been declining progressively. It is vital to convert the Federal Bureau of Statistics into an autonomous organisation supervised by a Board of independent experts, without any further delay.
sreejith
bangalore, india
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
195
The cunning Foxeph from Terroristan says
“India is with Sudan in the Hunger Index. India is below Pakistan in the GDP Index”

The fact is that you can never believe the statistics produced by the Pakistan Government. Here is an article written by FORMER PAKISTAN FINANCE MINISTER SARTAJ AZIZ questioning the economic growth figures under the military Government

The military regime claims that, the per capita income has doubled in the last six years with an average growth rate of 5% per year. Adjusting to the population growth of 2% year , the increase in per capita income should be around only 20% and not 100% in six years.

But in terroristan any thing can happen!!!
sreejith
bangalore, india
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
194
Dear Editor,

Arundhati Roy is one of the most ardent defenders of democracy (‘And His Life Should Become Extinct’, 30 October, 2006) Cases like the Parliament Attack provide vital openings where people, with their eyes and ears open, can unravel how democracy does not mean only a few institutions here and there, but is linked to everyday experiences of the common man. Roy, doing exactly that, criticises the Supreme Court judgement without getting judgmental, as she writes how Afzal came face to face with Indian democracy that stifled his voice and passed a sentence on him without listening to his side of the story. She is not concocting stories, for much of her piece is actually a reproduction of the Supreme Court judgement, media reports, and excerpts from Afzal’s letter.
As Roy goes on to show, the Parliament Attack case does not have some loose ends, but infact it is a very murky plot scripted by shady figures, which if followed can possibly lead to embarrassment for law enforcement agencies.
Public is exposed to a monochromatic information of the case proffered by the government, which Roy exposes as she digs out earlier cases where government versions fell on their face, only to reveal involvement of security agencies in acts of killing innocent people and blaming it on others.
In a situation when individual subjectivity is heavily tinted by a flawed sense of nationalism, one only hopes, leave alone Afzal, atleast Arundhati should get a patient audience. I guess swords are already out to demand her head along with Afzal’s.

Mohamad Junaid
Researcher
School of International Studies
JNU
New Delhi—67
Mohamad Junaid
new delhi, India
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
193
" I guess swords are already out to demand her head along with Afzal’s. "

No. Arundhati is the Noam Chomsky of India. In fact we need more arundhatis in India.. in our SHOWCASE… To show to the world how liberal and democratic we are ….
sreejith
bangalore, india
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
192
Mr. Aziz, Pakistani minorities vote under a Joint Electorate System as well as have Reserved Seats. This is just a correction to your posting about this.

India is unlikely to adopt this practice as it will militate against its avowed Secularism.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
191
Letter to Editor
-----------------
Cover Story – Don’t Hang Afzal –
Oct.30
----------------------------------------
-----
Sir, - Outlook’s quest for promoting Arundhati Roy is really astonishing. Is Outlook an appellate court over and above the Supreme Court and the President of India that made Arundhati Roy to file to it the 9,323 worded petition spread over 13 pages of Outlook against the Supreme Court’s verdict on Afzal Guru to whom the law of the land still allows filing review petition in the Supreme Court and finally a mercy petition to the President Of India? Was she in hibernation when the Supreme Court was hearing Afzal’s case? Why didn’t she go to the Court in his defence? It is still not too late. She can get the review petition filed with all of her arguments. The million Dollar question is: would she honour if the Supreme Court still holds its verdict? Never known for sound reasoning and taking up the right cause, she had amply shown her contempt for the judiciary and the law of the land in case of Narmada dam. Outlook should stop wasting subscriber’s money by misusing its pages in promoting hypocrites like her.
Yours sincerely,
M.C.Joshi
25-10-06
M.C.Joshi
Lucknow, India
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
190
Mr. Sreejith, is not extinction of life the Maker's Right?
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
189
Mr. Sreejith, the Hunger Index is developed by a non-Pakistani Organisation and the GDP is determined and/or vetted by the International Monetary Fund.

As for Mr. Sartaj Aziz, he belongs to the Mr. Nawaz Sharif Faction of the Pakistan Muslim League, which is rabidly against the Government In Power.

By the way, the Hunger Index was cit and pasted from this very Issue of Outlook India.

I have always stressed that as a Contributing Editor of a Business Magazine, I can not place my Credibility on the line.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
188
Mr. Sreejith, you also need to understand the different ways GDP and GDP growth are determined.

We have constant prices, current prices, etc. It is no use mixing up. It will not hide the truth about the Calorie Intake or rather the Non-Intake of an Average Indian, and his or her lower Income.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
187
Letter to the Editor,
Sir,
Arundhati Roy's careful piecing together of the strange case of Afzal is an indictment of the investigating authorities for their shoddy work and the media for its unscrupulousness. It seems that no one really wants to know what really happened in the Parliament attack case, but is simply satisfied with finding a scapegoat - to make a show that justice indeed has been meted out and a lesson taught to the errant Kashmiris. And as in most acts of scapegoating, they have gotten hold of a socially and politically vulnerable man. It seems as if this sacrifice is being demanded from Afzal, so that at the end of the day moustaches can be twirled and machismo exhibited in the puerile Bush manner about teaching 'them' a lesson. I think that a Parliament Enquiry into who was behind the attack should be the response of a modern democratic society - for clearly the attack was not the doing of one individual - and not naming something/someone 'evil' and ritually exorcising it in this primitive manner.
Nikhila H.
Pondicherry, India
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
186
“Though there was only one letter difference between being ‘SAINT’ and ‘SATAN’, even that Afzal failed to learn and hence deserves ‘No Mercy Marks’.”
Rajneesh Batra
New Delhi, India
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
185
Mr. Foxeph says
>> the Hunger Index is developed by a non-Pakistani Organisation and the GDP is determined and/or vetted by the International Monetary Fund.

GDP is never determined by IMF. It has got other things to do. As for IMF vetting the statistics produced by pak government, I remember they had some serious reservations about those nos (mainly per capita income and poverty figures), but I have no idea whether they have accepted those nos . In any way it is not the duty of IMF to come up with this nos.

You may talk about the current prices,….you may talk about the changing of base to year 2004… But the fact is that there is no way for the per capita income to double in six years with the kind of figures mentioned below. Please also note that Pakistan was having an average inflation of around 8% all these years. We all know that Pakistani economy is among world's few economies in the world, which is not quite open like indian economy. So stop fooling around here..

( BTB, are you aware that India’s base year is 1991 and has not changed for the last 15 years)

>>I have always stressed that as a Contributing Editor of a Business Magazine, I can not place my Credibility on the line.

So is Sartaj Aziz, the former finance Minister of Pakistan and what he is accusing of the pak government is the direct manipulation of survey data….
sreejith
bangalore, india
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
184
Well this argument is now becoming more and more interesting with all the so called secular intellectual making their case against death penalty for afzal. and as if creating evidence of their own(Aruthdati is admitidly good fiction writer) to create the confusion amoung masses.
Though our judicial system is not infallible but still capable to delivering the right judgement based on concrete evidence.
People still have hope with our judiciary as is the only non political entity capable of seeing through the truth and not through narrow religious and political angle.
For all the muslim brother crying for abolishment of death penalty. please amend the Quran first as holy book itself recommend eye for eye judgement.
Ind
Chennai, India
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
183
Aziz:"They have separate seats and they dont vote on other seats. I hope that is applied in India too. Then we can have at least seats comparable to the % of population."
Pakistan has Islamized itself, by merely giving token representation from minorities constituting separate electorates. It has declared itself an Islamic republic and gone ahead with cleansing the socalled infidels out, including ahmedeeyas etc. India did not go far a hinduistic republic, but for a secular setup, since Hinduism basically tolerates and respects all modes and objects of worship, inclusive of Godless buddheism and intellectual atheism. Hence, India went for a democracy where all citizens are equal, irrespective of religion. We only provided for a temporary handicap uplift for hindu-dalits, so that those who get helped pull up the others; but, unfortunately, those who have benefited want to continue and enlarge benefits to the creamy layers formed, keeping out the really deserving poor on the one hand and the forwards on the other, while resisting reservations for even the poor among the minorities.The assault of Reservia on India is the current problem with us today. Perhaps, we might be better off, if we also go for separate electorates for minorities at the same percentages of population they had at the time of independence. Relatively different rates of population expansion in different communities would not affect the composition of parliament. Use of pop-explosion as a political weapon would come to a stop, leaving decisions to family and group economics. But, India has now become what system scientists call an ‘uncontrollable’ system . No points of input are available at which system would respond for reforms in the constitution.



v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
182
Nandu,

You are the one who linked the theory of evolution with the theory of avatars. I have nothing against belief in avatars, but when you try to find a scientific basis for it, you may be unnecessarily exposing Hinduism to ridicule. By the way, you are mistaken in your assertion that I supported the Adam and Eve theory. You are mistaking me for another poster.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
181
IND says,

>> For all the muslim brother crying for abolishment of death penalty. please amend the Quran first as holy book itself recommend eye for eye judgement.

Western European countries, Canada and Mexico have abolished the death penalty without amending the Bible. The quote "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" is from the book of Exodus in the Bible
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
180
Nandu,

Thanks for posting the story from Business Week on Karma Capitalism. Don't you think Swami Pathasarthy and the other Business Gurus are doing a better job interfacing with the West compared to those who make stretched analogies between Hinduism and Darwinism? By the way I never said Hinduism is "backward thinking".
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
179
This article is shocking and disturbing in the way the police force has, ( ? on orders from higher authorities ), freely manipulated evidence that too with threats of 'encounter killings' in order to suppress the truth behind the Parliament attack.
Muslims, especially Kashmiris, are routinely targets of such a system which, though 'secular' on paper, has only a bone-bare representation of muslims on it.

What does not surprise however, is the utter lack of regard by the judicial system for due process before pronouncing a death sentence. The judicial system is a total failure and has lost the respect of the muslim community eons ago.

The government must now do its due and get to the bottom of events in the police and judiciary, and pursue the matter with high urgency.

The confidence of muslims in the Indian judiciary and executive will depend on it.
Shukoor PS
Bangalore, India
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
178
What does not surprise however, is the utter lack of regard by the judicial system for due process before pronouncing a death sentence. The judicial system is a total failure and has lost the respect of the muslim community eons ago.

Brother ! You are doing one-sided analysis. Are you concerned as a Muslim is given death sentence. This is very dangerous. Supreme court must not consider which faith the criminals belong too. Criminals are simply criminals.


The confidence of muslims in the Indian judiciary and executive will depend on it.


There you go again. Are you threatening India with dire consequence. Here in India even after being a minority we are enjoying such freedom. We must not misuse the freedom. You see our neighbouring Bangla/Paki are not treating the minorities very well and there Muslims are the majority.


Muslims, especially Kashmiris, are routinely targets of such a system which, though 'secular' on paper, has only a bone-bare representation of muslims on it.


Brother why do we forget, what the Kashmiri Muslims have done to the Kashmiri Hindus. Half a million Hindus are driven out from the valley. Yet we are only thoughtful about the Muslims in Kashmir. The real victims in Kashmir are Hindus. Why do we forget that. Have we become so inhuman to see only Muslim pains ?
jaleel
luknow, India
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
177
London Nandu:>>"Corporate America is embracing Indian philosophy in a big way." I, for one, am not surprised at the development. The words manager, maanajah and management, maanaja-vidyaa are self-explanatory, when sanskritized.
maanam janayati iti maanajah: a good manager of men/women is the one who is able build up the self esteem and self-confidence of the people working with him. manasyushan manushyeshu maanavaan maanava-ucyate; manushyeshu maana-jananaat maanajo maanavottamah: man is a mental being, living in his mind, primarily; manushya with maana, selfesteem is called maanava. But, like the permanent magnet which can help magnetize other iron pieces, the maanaja or manager, is the best among men/women, because of the ability to convert manushyas into maanavas.
So, management is primarily the art of developing the inner self of humans to achieve self-esteem and self-comnfidence without allowing it to become selfishness or self-pride. Yoga and philosophy are of great help in achieveing this.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
176
Arundhati Roy's report "And His Life Should be Extinct" about Mohammed Afzal is really a strange story of how our law enforcement and judicial process works. As a lawyer based in New York, I continue to be appalled by the lack of due process in judicial decision-making. Arundhati's report shows how for the "rarest of the rare" punishments, of death, the judicial system apparently overlooked evidentiary holes and denied the accused timely and adequate legal counsel. Where is the hurry to hang? For the reasons set forth in Arundhati's report alone, the President of India should commute Afzal's death sentence to life in prison. Thereafter, the whole body of evidence concerning the December 2001 attack on the Parliament reviewed by a Parliamentary Committee. Among other things, Arundhati is right when she says we ought to know why our troops were amassed at the Pakistan border for 2 years following the December 2001 attack on the Parliament.

The truth must come to light and hanging Afzal does not seem to further that goal.

Jaipat S. Jain
New York
mycable
new york, United States
Oct 25, 2006 12:00 AM
175
I am an Indian citizen who is working as a senior lawyer in the London offices of a major American law firm. Ms. Roy's article does an eloquent job at highlighting how difficult it is for the Rule of Law to triumph when issues of personal freedom are grossly politicised. The Rule of Law is the name given to the state of affairs when a legal system is legally in good shape. Inherent to the concept of the Rule of Law are procedural fairness and the crucial element of reciprocity between ruler and ruled. It appears to me that the legal treatment of Afzal Guru lacked these crucial elements that constitute the ediface of any just legal system. [My full name is: Abesh Choudhury, and I live in London, England]
Abesh
London, United Kingdom
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
174
Abhimanyu, I'm not objecting to anyone calling me "she", or assuming from my name that I'm a woman. In fact I find that funny, and I purposely gave myself this name, because it is fun with homophobes. I did not object when people simply referred to me as "she".

But the thing is, it didn't end there. From there it goes on to people saying "fag", "fairy", "homo", "hysterical" and "drama queen". Those are loaded epithets, like "spic" or "coolie" or "nigger".

It is that, that I objected to. Surely you're not saying that giving oneself the name "Sundari" means others should call one "fairy" and "fag"?

I may be aggressive, but I don't hurl ethnic and racial slurs at people. If anything, I respond to a homophobic slur with some other kind of slur. Maybe I shouldn't have done that, but it was always a case of paying people back in their own coin.

And if someone repeatedly said, as I have, "Look, don't call me xyz, because it is offensive for xyz reason", then, I would immediately stop.

(Assuming of course that "xyz" isn't a normal adjective like "conservative" or "liberal", and that its being applied to ideas, rather than to people posting on the forum).

Hope that clarifies. Aggressive is different from racist, sexist and homophobic.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
173
>> Again, this may already have been thrashed through by the court.

Well, no. Arundhati Roy's interesting and highly imaginative conspiracy theory was not discussed by the courts. It was not discussed for the simple reason that the defence did not bring it up. And the defence perhaps had a good reason for not bringing it up: their objective was to get their clients out of jail; not to publish racy whodunnits on Outlook.

But speaking of conspiracies, there's one that Roy wants us to overlook. Look at these facts:

1. Afzal says initially that Geelani is innocent
2. Afzal's lawyer is grabbed by Geelani.
3. Geelani is fired at; ecapes unhurt "miraculously". None of the five bullets get him. Kinda like in Quentin Tarantino's saucy potboiler Pulp Fiction, wherein gangster Samuel Jackson misses a hail of bullets miraculously, and takes it as god's sign that he should quit his life of crime and go "walk the earth". Geelani walks the earth -- to Nadita Haskar's house.
4. Afzal now implicates Geelani
5. Geelani's and Afzal's lawyers clash in court.

Who fired at Geelani? Why? An incompetent marksman who wanted to kill but missed? Or a professional who wanted to send a "sign" and so missed on purpose?

The Geelani crowd accuses the Delhi Police of trying to kill him. Methinks different. Methinks Geelani wanted to bail out. Methinks the Afzal crowd felt betrayed.
R Chauhan
SF Bay Area, United States
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
172
Is Arundhati Roy saying that the Parliament attack was stage managed?
I'm sure the allegations based on lapses in the investigations can be traced back and the current government can do it.
Roy has laid her reputation on the line. Can we have some spirited defence or offence?
It is tragic that every move of the NDA government is subjected to so much scorn.
I remember growing up in the Congress era with the knowledge that only they could provide justice and leadership to the country.
And no government or pm has been subjected to the ridicule than the NDA.
Can they find a voice or do we go back to a unipolar political sysyem?
As for Roy the last 5 years have shown her up to be a pained critique of the present world order.
Where lies her Janat?
I am afraid she is going to have to delineate a world / country order. Or with what do we believe her or pin our faith in her?
Bindu Tandon
Mumbai, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
171
>> the naive belief that since Arundhati Roy is a fiction-writer, she is licensed to fictionalize real-life incidents.

Her article included an item that had been reported in error by two reputable publications. Surely that is not "fictionalizing".

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
170
R Chauhan says, "Geelani is fired at; ecapes unhurt "miraculously". None of the five bullets get him."

Newspaper report, "Prof. Geelani sustained at least three gunshots wounds and was rushed to the All-India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS), where his condition is reported to be serious"
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
169
As far as Geelani's case is concerned, the SC verdict stated that the needle of suspicion pointed towards him. He was given only a benefit of doubt. This meant that he was guilty, but because of lack of clinching evidence, he was not convicted. Since the public memory is short, some people are making a donkey into a horse.
Rantan
Kanakpur, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
168
But if Afzal is hanged, and it is true that the whole attack was orchestrated by someone in the NDA govt, then those persons need to hang too.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
167
Her article included an item that had been reported in error by two reputable publications. Surely that is not "fictionalizing

but before publishing, the due diligence of researching the veracity of contents is the onus on the publisher.
roy's works seem to emanate out of her hatred for anything non-left oriented rather than sound research.
bhushan
richmond, United States
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
166
Sundari, will they accept your explanation?
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
165
Mr. R. Chauhan, do you think the truth will ever out?
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
164
Rantan

"As far as Geelani's case is concerned, the SC verdict stated that the needle of suspicion pointed towards him. He was given only a benefit of doubt. This meant that he was guilty, but because of lack of clinching evidence, he was not convicted. Since the public memory is short, some people are making a donkey into a horse."

He is a kashmiri and the terrorists were kashmiri. He knew them. He may/may not have helped them. That was court to decide. Anyway if knowing them was a crime in itself then I guess there are a lot of people in delhi who should be hanged.

Currently, as soon as police catches some one, media is agog with news that oh! culprits have been caught. They give out the whole story how everything happened. So, in the eyes of public the case is over, there is nothing for court to decide on. This is exactly why people were so disappointed when prof. gilani was released and why people are so hellbent on Afzal hanging.

Finally, as a principle if prof. gilani is guilty he should be punished and since Afzal has been convicted he should be punished. But, extraconstitutional trial by media prior to the actual trial should be stopped.
Aziz
Pune, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
163
Ms Bindu Tandon, is there something that Ms. Arundhati Roy knows that we do not? Would Outlook India place its reputation on the line without due deligence? Why is the N. D. A. silent?
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
162
'I may be aggressive, but I don't hurl ethnic and racial slurs at people.'

Check your posts. Time and again you have called people 'Chaddi'. So, how's that not a racial epithet?

...In any case, your continued agitation with a trivial issue is endangering your claim of NOT being a drama queen.

...one needs to grant old mac this - he/she is funny- notwithstanding his inconsistent logic. And of course A. Roy is a hottie. I'll do her any day.
Ravi
Denver, USA
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
161
Pointless to send in a comment when the writer is Arundhati Roy. But of course the terrorists are saintly compared to the Indian Government. That too when it was led by the right wing BJP at that period of time.

Arundhati, you are not alone in your whimsical imaginations. There are quite a few lunatic leftist individuals in USA who think that George W masterminded 9/11. If him why couldn't Advani/Vajpayee have not masterminded Dec 13th

Sincerely,
Vic Sangha
Toronto, Canada
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
160
"I'll do her any day..." (Sri Ram)

"My schlong..." (Old Mac while talking about Sundari)

This juvenile boys' locker-room talk is what is absolutely unwarranted and makes one wonder whether such machismo is also exhibited in front of their wives/mothers/sisters/aunts?

Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
159
Sundari,

As a matter of fact, Arundhati Roy is not the first with this whole conspiracy theory. Nirmalangshu Mukherjee has been insinuating it in almost all his articles for the last so many years. Frankly, while the role of the STF is definitely questionable, I find it difficult to believe that if the BJP/NDA was involved, it remained under wraps for so long, as it would definitely involve a lot of people and the Indian system leaks like a sieve. While I would definitely want a thorough enquiry, my instinctive response is that the police/STF etc were under crazy pressure to crack the case and just did what they do under such circumstances: caught whoever they thought they could implicate.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
158
>>>makes one wonder whether such machismo is also exhibited in front of their wives/mothers/sisters/aunts?

Seriously. Not to mention adversaries and non-family. Not to mention any gay individuals in their circle - the "fag" and "fairy" stuff and the derogatory remarks about gays and fashion. James Baldwin, interested in fashion, didn't want a revolution, indeed. And this hateful talk, when just 2 weeks ago Vikram Seth, a brilliant writer who has always spoken up on social causes, had an article in Outlook.


This whole board reeks of this heterosexist stuff - and the fundamentalist Christians and Sanghis are at the forefront of it, always.

Just look at the way they're talking about Arundhati Roy - "I'll do her", "hottie" "prostitute".
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
157
Sundari,

Hypotehtically, my point was this: whether one is or not gay, straight, hetero, transvestite, whatever, even before your announcement on the list as to your sexual orientation, there was much of sexist and sexual nonsense being bandied about, particularly by Old Mac. I freely concede that I myself have told people to "fuck off" here but that has always been in a non-sexual "stop being a pest" sense. But enough of this.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
156
Just look at the way they're talking about Arundhati Roy - "I'll do her", "hottie" "prostitute".

Just look at the way Arundhati Roy is talking about my country - "Opressors", "Anti-Muslims", "Killers".

Arundhati deserves respect in accordance with the quality of her arguments. Her insuniations about India's institutions are much worse than anyone calling her a 'prostitute'. She should be tried for libel and treason.

In any case, my sexual interest in Arundhati is none of your concern - even if I openly expressed it on this forum. Just as you openly expressed that you are gay and expect to be treated with respect, I have expressed my interest in having sex with Arundhati and no one can call me names for that.

Please cease and desist.

That will make you a hater of
people-who-want-to-have-sex-with-Arundhati.
>Enough of your sermons. Get on with the issue at hand.
Ravi
Denver, USA
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
155
Ajit Tendulkar: "..even before your announcement on the list as to your sexual orientation, there was much of sexist and sexual nonsense being bandied about, particularly by Old Mac.."
Old Mac is a catholic priest - that should explain the reasons for the above. Certainly he deserves the opportunities of this forum to air his profound fantasies?
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
154
>>>the way Arundhati Roy is talking about my country - "Opressors", "Anti-Muslims", "Killers".

Really? Looks like you dreamed all that up! I don't see all that in her article at all.

Maybe you wish she'd written all that!

>>>In any case, my sexual interest in L. K. Advani is none of your concern

True. It is not.

>>>That will make you a hater of

people-who-want-to-have-sex-with-Advani.
R>Never! However, anyone who thinks that expressing a desire to have sex with Advani in some way refutes any arguments Advani may be making, is mistaken.

But go ahead Ravi, and dream about a raging romance with L. K. Advani.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
153
Problem with people like Arundathi Roy is that they thrive on making out conspiracies out of nothing in order to fool themselves about their intellect and balance. This kind of stuff does nothing and helps nobody. Such cynical outlooks with no concrete backing up are useless and infact quite dangerous. I wish that people like A.Roy would actually do something instead of pontificating and living in a self alluded world of pseudo intellect. If she has enough reasons to suspect a conspiracy take it up to the court and file a PIL and prove it. Otherwise she should shut up instead of living in this cuckoo world where everbody and everything is twisted around her.
vijay
Coimbatore, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
152
>>>If she has enough reasons to suspect a conspiracy take it up to the court and file a PIL and prove it.

That would be a separate proceeding, and Afzal would need to be alive for that. If he's hanged in a hurry, as many seem keen to do, forget about that PIL.

Besides what Roy is talking about is a much larger case, or shall we say, frame. Even if Afzal is involved in the attack on the Parliament, it is equally important to ask who set the whole thing up, and who he reported to.

Nirmalanghsu Mukherjee quotes from what lawyer Usha Ramanathan wrote in the May 5 2006 issue of Boom Review (ie a long long time ago):

"the only inquiry [into the Pariament attack] of which the public has knowledge has been translated into criminal proceedings in the court. The micro- scopic nature of a trial in court, however, means that it is only the accused whose conduct will be interrogated and judged."

Read that last line several times. It isn't so much Afzal's involvement that's the point as who else was involved. If there's been an attack on Parliament, shouldn't we know what exactly happened there??

The public appeal should NOT be made in the rabble-rousing way Nandita Haksar did. That deadly cocktail of "let him go because he's Muslim and so the Kashmiris don't get angry and because everybody is an Islamophobe" is communal-minded, tends to backfire badly, and frankly, sounds seriously FISHY to me.

Why does that line of appeal sound fishy to me?

Because that is not what PUDR, or Roy, or Ramanathan or Mukherjee are saying. They have been pressing for a full inquiry, which won't be possible if this guy is killed.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
151
Of course there is always a possibility that the mass of Outlook readers actually doesn't mind it if indeed the NDA engineered the whole thing. A basic assumption Roy, Mukherjee, Ramanathan and others are making is that most people actually want truth, transparency and accountability. Maybe these people just want endless staged fights, however.

After all, the folks here are largely NRIs not directly concerned with whether or not the institutions of the state function properly. So what if "events" are routinely manufactured to win elections, show the world this or that, or justify some policy otherwise unjustifiable. Just like they will watch Ramayana and Mahabharata and Bollywood films, they'll also watch these thrilling games of attacks on the Parliament from afar, applauding happily, as long as its a good story with a tight denoument. They have nothing at stake in all this.

I'm afraid Outlook contributes to this mess with its shallow, opportnistic and in the end, malicious brand of journalism.

When Frontline (a magazine I respect much much more) was publishing these eminently sane calls for an inquiry, Outlook chooses to flood its pages with polemical articles about "Islamophobia", "hurt sentiments" and "Muslims will get angry if we blah blah blah".

Whereas in truth, there is a whole different line of thinking going on when PUDR, N.Mukherjee, lawyers like Ramanathan and now Roy ask for a complete inquiry, to ask that this whole affair not be hushed up, that we in fact, know all the facts behind it.

Outlook needs to be trashed completely. I'll stick to reading Frontline from now on. Over to
http://www.flonnet.com/.


And I hope they never introduce a reader's forum.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
150
This letter is to request you to rescind the withdrawal of my posting privileges. These were apparently withdrawn at the request of a poster named “Sundari.” While I acknowledge your right to be completely arbitrary in deciding whom you allow to post, the idea that sticks in my craw is the belief that you make such decisions to just shut up whiners who complain incessantly…and that your decisions are no more rigorous than greasing the squeaky wheel to silence it. While I can easily reregister a new identity, there is an important principle at stake here. The principle of who controls the debates: you or a perpetually complaining poster?

In this case, the complaints of Sundari are without merit. She falsely accused me calling her a “fag,” among other things. She can point to no such post for the simple reason I made no such posting. As for the litany of others claims, when seen in the context they were said, they are quite mild juxtaposed to her own posts over the past month or so; which you can review yourself. When she quite freely hurled abuse and epithets, I took them in stride as part and parcel of a free wheeling public speech.

I am a firm believer in free speech. However, in the event you do not restore my posting privileges, I request that you DO NOT revoke her posting privileges.

If I do post, it will be because my original ID is restored. Otherwise, this is farewell to fans, foes, and fainting fairies. But, not good-bye. As they say, stay tuned for the second act.


http://oldmacworld.blogspot.com/

Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
149
Yeah, Old Mac has been banned. This is good news. That sort of homophobic, sexist and racist bullying is just not on. Usually people back off when you tell them once. Not this individual.

Outlook, just for this, I will read both your magazine AND Frontline, for a while, anyway.

I imagine the overall tone of things will improve considerably now.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
148
He has been banned? Wow. I never realised before this that I would ever celebrate any ban.

But, Sundari, I have tried looking up Frontline's coverage of this issue as well, and while I fully agree with you that Haksar played to the galleries and Prashant Bhushan was as wishy-washy as any do-gooder ever does, I do think that Outlook's coverage of this has been substantive: take Nirmalangshu Mukherji's four articles between 2004-2006 and the full text of Afzal's various letters and his testimony, as well as the Supreme Court judgment in seven parts. I am still making my way through the Supreme Court judgment slowly, but also of interest is the following full statement by Afzal to the court:
http://www.outlookindia...name=nirmalangshu&sid=2


I would in fact urge Outlook to also put up the full judgment and evidence presented to the trial court and the high court as well, as it is clear that the various "activists", particularly Haksar, and even Mukherji, are selectively quoting from them, leaving out important angles.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
147
Ms Roy's "evidence" makes us questions the charge against Mr. Afzal but we can only charge her of looking at it from one perspective. What is more important, in my opinion, is the death penalty. By hanging Mr. Afzal what are we trying to achieve? I am not sure that making an example of him will help bring terror in the hearts of other “terrorists”. They are known to take the lives of innocent people, which is proof that they do not value life. How much do you think they value their own life? Or by hanging him do we hope to eradicate the “terrorist” gene? Will we hang all “terrorists” then? What defines a person as a “terrorist”? If we are to believe Ms. Roy then the politicians, army officers, not forgetting the “collective conscience of society” are taking the lives of innocent people. The death penalty has made him a demon or a martyr or a victim depending on individual biases.

In this age, human life is so cheap that people are ready to mow down buildings with airplanes, bomb local trains or at a micro level, run over the poor who have to sleep on the pavement. We could make an example of Mr. Afzal by showing that we value life, even a terrorist’s life and not hang him. But then who profits from that, right?
gauri
hyderabad, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
146
first of all it is very dishearting to read such abnoxious artices published in a very reputed mazazines like outlookindia .ARUNDHATI ROY not only justifies afzal's malacious action but also mocks at the patriotism and sentiments of millions of indIans .I would like to ask roy one simple question . whom does she work for , PAKISTAN , BANGLADESH OR CHINA .If msRoy belongs to any of the above group , i think i understand her plight.
girish
bangalore, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
145
Sadly Ms Roy's depiction of Indian legal system did not surprise me. It is well known that police in India excell in "encounters", not in serious crime scene investigation. It is more ironic given the fact the police is headed by some of most intellectual minds - IAS/IPS. Shame on them!
And the courts? Lesser say better it is. They sentence people (minorities, Dalits etc to be precise) to death based on 'circumstantial' evidence.. I just heard that about their mission to dismantle affirmative action for SC/STs in the name of 'creamy layer'. They are now prententing to be Ambedkar and rewriting the constitution!!
Rajesh
Phoenix, United States
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
144
Mr. Vic Sangha, are not both strongly possible?
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
143
It seems that ms. roy has done a lot of work in collecting the information, though not sure how much of it is truth and how is fabricated.
Since she herself mention that the information available from media and police, so what makes her think that we will believe in all the facts given by her.
In a democarcy and with free press, everybody has a right to express. however there are some very simple question i'd like to raise.
a. does all the so called intellectuals and human right activist believe that afzal is a culprit or are they raising a question on the validity of india's highest court.
b. Whatever the case be why not let the law of the land takes its own course( clemency petition or whatever ) instead of raising hue and cry about the decision and trying the pressure tactics. I believe its totally wrong of anybody saying that kashmir will go in flames if afzal is hanged. Law and politics can not be merged together and in any case kashmir is already in flames.
c. How about covering al the kashmiris under the umbrella of human rights and not being selective about certain section. When a militant kills innocent ppl isn't that the breach of human rights, how about daring the stand against the militants who give a damn to human rights,how about writing something on that?
How about writing something on the mass exodus of innocent kashmiri pandits with no fault of theirs. Is it acceptable by the so called intellects? how about writing on the end of a civilization and slowly dwindling kashmiri pundit population? I believe human right activits finds it fashionable to side with a specific class because it gives them loads of media glare.
When Afzal guru's wife was asked by media whether she considers kashmir as an integral part of india, she didn't even bothered to answer. would ms. roy like to comment on it.
Author should for a change live in kashmir for few years and see the war with her own eyes. Than she will understand what an army jawaan goes through living constantly under a bunker and protecting the fellow countrymen who live in their plush houses and enjoy being a critic.
In a war stray bullets fly with no names written on them. how come when militants fires irrationaly nobody comes on street but when army retaliates it becomes a big issue.

Ms. Roy Pen is mightier than sword and i agree with you that no innocent should suffer for no fault but with the same logic i'd love to see you write about the sufferings of kashmiris and not a class or section. How about writing on the pains of being a migrant in your own country.
Vikas Kaul
gurgaon, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
142
Why am i not surprised by this work of fiction from Ms Roy. Its time people like her are tried and hanged for treason. In case she doesnt fancy a hanging perhaps a worser thing would be to send her to Pakistan for the rest of her life.
But then i guess that may not please m'am so much , which country besides India would tolerate fiction writers like her who claims to be an auhtority on the judicial system, physics, hydropower and what have you.
I guess in Pakistan i might be difficult to also be this leftist who quietly occupies some forest land to make this nice home ... ( who notices and the government can be paid off right...) Its a pity we tolerate such people in this country
kausik
Guwahati, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
141
Mr. Girish, could not Ms Arundathi Roy belong to a group seeking the truth?
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
140
Well done Arundhati ...... couldn't have articulated Afzal's & Kashmiris & India's plight better.
Should Afzal be hanged or Bangaru Laxman (for taking bribes on behalf of BJP to sell the country)? ....... Should Afzal be hanged or George Fernandez for buying weapons endangering the lives of our army personnel? ....... Should Afzal be hanged or the Parlamentarians (who are selling the country instead of protecting it)? ... Haven't we seen enough of what these honour sellers do in and outside parliament? .... Now about sterring the common conscience (supreme court words) .... on a later date if we finds evidence that Afzal was innocent will the judges (who pronounced the judgement in this case) be ready to be hanged in public? .... Mera Bharat Mahaan
Saraswathi
Zurich, Switzerland
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
139
Why are we not surprised by Ms. Roy's comments?

Just, curious, but in a country with so many problems and troubles, why do we never see the likes of Ms. Roy involved in issues that are not in media spotlight. Why are issues like child labour, exploitation of women, dowry ignored?
Are not the victims involved in the above issues, qualified enough for support or attention.
Its sad that, being supportive of issues that help bolster ones' anti-establishment credentials is all the agenda that some "literate" people pursue.


Coming to the "victim" in this case the man who is supposed to be executed. Excuse me, but what about all the people who loose lives and loved ones, do they not have a right to justice. "Justice" is as defined by the law and not as defined/intrepreted by a group of people who consider life so sacrosanct that they conveniently forget all the ones who loose lives in terror attacks.

Impressive though the article/research seems, People who pen multi page articles, may be need to add just another word to their mental vocabulary "REASONABLE".

And if they just cannot be "more reasonable", then they could just quit Samaj Seva and join Bollywood to create scripts for say.. another DON
Rajiv
Bangalore, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
138
We Indians know Ms Roy & her ilk very well now.Any cause that keeps them in lime light is a good cause.Country's grim fight against terrorism be damned!But then nation has learnt to live with them.What ever happens to Afzal would happen to him not because but inspite of her and her 16 pages of wasted space.

Jitendra Desai
Surat, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
137
>>The kind of treatment upper caste hindus meted out >>to lower caste people is not hidden from the >>world.

Very true. But we Muslims do the worst. We believe Arabs are the most superior people on Earth and only a Quraish can be a Khilafa. How we offer our young girls to old Arabs is a well known fact.

>>So the question is - if hindus treated their own >>people with such cruelty then its anybodies >>guess how they would have treated people of >>other religions.

In mistreating people of other religions nobody can equal us, the Muslims. In India we are 20%+ now , starting from 12% in 1948. See what we did to Hindus/Sikhs in Pak/Bangladesh. Muslims have wiped out the Sikhs and Hindus from Pak. Sikhs and Hindus are less than 1% in Pakistan now. In Bangladesh, Hindus and Budhhists are being wiped out by the Muslims. Because Pakistan and Bangladesh are Muslim majority states, so they became Islamic countries and thereby giving Islam more importance than any other religion. While here in India we want a secular state as we are the minority here. This is the double standard we are following for 1400+ years now. We have became weak and backward bcause of our hypocrisy. Allah doesn't like hypocrites.
jaleel
luknow, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
136
Hi NANDU

Hindus like you try to preach that hindu religion is very scientific - but the reverse is true.

The fact is that hindus beleive in lots of superstitions like astrology etc. and then claim that it's a science.

Howsoever hard you try to interpret it as per yr whims & fantacies - your folly will be exposed.

The questions that you have raised regarding adam & eve & human evolution can be answered very easily in the light of Islam - but I dont want to deviate from the topic of discussion. I will give you a hint - you know how was eve created according to Islamic history ?? If not then please go & read.

It was only because babu as usual started his rants against Islam - I tried to show him the true face of hinduism.
You asked "..........what does islam say about 2 x 2 =?. does it say 6?. hinduism say it is 4. ...."

First of all define hinduism. Then I can answer all yr questions. You tell me which books you consider as part of sacred hindu scriptures - and where you have found 2x2 = 4.

Just one fundamental question to hindus is that where is GOD ?? If you answer this question then you will realize the reality of hinduism.
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Ranchi, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
135
Hi JALEEL

When you talk about muslims you should use the word "They" rather than "we" and try to associate yr self with Islam.

"......Very true. But we Muslims do the worst. We believe Arabs are the most superior people on Earth .............."

Prophet muhammad has said this very thing in his last sermon (before his death) & I am quoting it :

"[b]All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action.[/b]"

You can refer the following link in wikipedia & see for yrself :


http://en.wikipedia.org...mon_of_Prophet_Muhammed


You have the habit of criticizing Islam without knowing the facts - you assume certain things to be Islamic and then you start lecturing against Islam.
Even if you have to attack Islam you should first have strong arguments against it - you are like a warrior without a sword.

".........How we offer our young girls to old Arabs is a well known fact.............."

I can quote another hadeeth to prove you wrong (but this time I leave it to you - please for once go & do some research) - If you offer yr daughter/sister to old arabs for marriage then its yr problem - not the problem with Islam.
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Ranchi, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
134
>>Who knows buddhists and jains are a minority due >>to this very reason.
They are minority because of the Muslims. Everybody knows that Taxila and Nalanda were premire universities set up by the Buddhists and they were destroyed by Muslims. Muslims didn't like the intellectual superiority of Buddhists and HIndus and started killing them and also destroyed their univerisites. Who will forget the destruction of Bamyan buddhas by the Muslims.

Here I want to raise a point. Why do we hate the Jews from the bottom of our hearts ? The answer is- Jews are far superior to all the Muslims in all respects. In the past we were at least militarilly stronger than the jews as we vastly outnumbered them. Alas!! we cannot boast of this anymore. 6 million Jews are enough to deafeat 1.5 billion Muslims. It needs sharp brain to have superior military power. It seems we Muslims have underdeveloped brains and hence our countries are empty vessels sounding too much.
jaleel
luknow, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
133
HI JALEEL
".........Alas!! we cannot boast of this anymore. 6 million Jews are enough to deafeat 1.5 billion Muslims..........."

First of all muslims are not required to defeat jews & christians or other civilizations to go to heaven.
We muslims are not in a rat race to be economically or militarily the most superior race - rather what is required is to be just & pious and lead righteous life.
This is enough for muslims to achieve success in afterlife. Let the westerners spend their time building bombs and running after money.

Ultimately everyone has to die and then wealth and military might will be of no use.

Only thing is that muslims are required to fight against the opression like for example what the palestinian people are facing on the hands of jews.
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Ranchi, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
132
>>Muslims beleive that the first people
>>to set foot on earth were Adam & Eve
>>and they were muslims.

This belief comes to us from Judaism. All the semitic religions believe it. But that doesn't mean that other people will believe in that. Moreover all the semitic religions owe their roots to Zoroastrianism.

Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism don't believe in that. If we go by the Hindu scriptures, the Arabs were Hindus and later they had to accept Islam in the seventh century. The conversions of the Meccans or the most of Arabs were not friendly affairs, Traditions and history prove that.
jaleel
luknow, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
131
#####:::::-NNNNN-:::::#####. Brother you have a problem. You probably never read other religious scriptures. I do read them very often. You may like it or not, none of them are flawless. And Quran is not flawless either. So if we think Quran has the ultimate truth, then we are wrong, very wrong. I will suggest you to read some books on Buddhism and I think you will like them. Here is a link for you. Just spend some time.

http://www.buddhanet.net/ebooks.htm



http://www.purifymind.com/DharmapadaSutra.htm


Buddha says:

* Do not believe in tradition because they have been have been handed down.

* Do not believe in anything because it is spoken and rumoured by many.

* Do not believe in anything because it is found written in religious books.

* Do not believe in anything merely on the account of your teachers and elders.

* But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of all, then accept it and live up to it."

jaleel
luknow, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
130
N4 from ranchi quotes quran

----
All mankind is from Adam and Eve,
----

now that is the mother of all fallacies... the very foundation is flawed. any furhter argument will be a pointless exercise. :-)
not to mean that other scriptures of othr religions are superior or anythigng.
chester pester
timbaktoo, timbaktoo
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
129
Roy's comments are completely predictable. I could have provided the whole thing in advance. This soulless harridan once wrote a passable novel and now is assumed in the tenth-rate minds of the Indian "secualr" clowns to be entitled to endless media publicity for the stupid and malicious remarks she makes. As here. The real surprise is that Outlook, in a country with all kinds of fascianting and important things going on that badly need to be brought to our attention, gives so much space to this contemptible self-publicist without an atom of fairness in her. Ever heard her mutter "Darfur" or "Sarabjit" even when drunk? Outrageous.....!!!
Anil Narlikar
Pune, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
128
Since Mr. Nandu has asked a question, I am attending to it. Why give a Religious tinge to this issue? It is not unusual to have such laws in place after partitions and divisions which lead to exodus, and also Wars. In 1947, we had the Evacuee Property Act. Then we had in Pakistan the Abandoned Property Act following from the c reation of Bangladesh and the Acts that you have mentioned in these postings relating to the Hindu migration from Bangladesh.

All these Acts were subject to abuse. When my father went to claim compensation for property left in Kadri, Mangalore, he was informed that the records showed the property was in another's name. He returned empty-handed.

Land, unfortunately, is the cause of much regret and remorse, and, of course, acrimony. If you are familiar with events from the Bible, and, I daresay, the Hindu Scriptures, you will notice that battles over land at the individual level and the collective level abound.

As for reserved seats for Minorities in Pakistan, we got rid of the Separate Electorate system recently and all Pakistanis participate in all elections under the Joint Electorate System. However, reserved seats system has been retained. The Houses have representation of all Religions. I am not sure there are any representatives from the Buddhist and Jain Communities as there numbers would be exceedingly small.

I do not know whether appeasement of Minorities for election purposes will be meaningful in Pakistan as they do not constitute a swing vote as do Muslims in India.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
127
Dear A Roy,

Thanks for stirring the hearts of so many Indians and NRIs in 16 pages (I am one of them).

You are acting like a ambassador for 'English speaking Indians', because you have won BOOKER for your first and only literary work. You have earned is enough to live 10 JANMAS or to serve 200 Indian schools by this one novel, because you wrote it in English. (Alas! your so called creativity could not even stretch to second one!!) What to do with all this celebrity status? You started writing about politics of India as 10-16 page long essays to show your briliancy in English and to please western media and west in general. You have 'Outlook', which publishes everything written by you unedited (I think your article should not have been more than 3 pages, if edited).

I will point only one thing in your article: You write ' Indian occupied Kashmir', instead of 'Kashmir'. I am from Karnataka (once Mysore state). Can I also state that 'I am staying in Indian occupied Mysore state?' Silly you, if everyone starts thinking as stupid as you do, then there will be no India. I am ashamed that you call yourself as Indian. Better call yourself as 'Western minded, west money eating (Booker and publishers money) unfortunate Indian occupied (Indian passport) citizen of the world'.

Thanks for the rubbish, A Roy, If you have patience read all the letters to your article and try to understand what we all are saying.
keshav
london, United Kingdom
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
126
Arundhati Roy is a petty attention-grabber, a selfish, pompous show-off who has not achieved anything positive in the realm of social service whose cause she claims to espouse. She just needs an occasional cause to boost her literati ratings once in a while.

Let's assume her consipracy theory has substance. Then why is the UPA administration silent. By exposing this conspiracy, UPA stands to gain by delivering a fatal blow to the NDA. Surely all intelligence agencies are under UPA's control. Cynical politicians of all hues have been known to take advantage of slightest hint of scandals, even when none exist. This one could be the dynamite ten times bigger than Bofors. So, why is UPA sitting tightly on this consipracy? What do UPA stand to gain by suppressing NDA's conspiracy?

Arundhati's logic also assumes that all our intelligence agencies, security setup, analysts and experts are either hand in glove or plain stupid to not see what Arundhati sees. Only a stupid person would think that our entire security setup is full of idioits. That leaves us with only other possibility - that everyone is a party to the conspiracy. It is a well established fact that the reason for survival of conspiracy theories is that virtually all inconsistencies can be explained away by the basic premise of everyone being involved.

Moreover, our vibrant and vigilant fourth estate is completely discounted by Arundhati. If what she alleges is true, then why haven't we seen a Bofors style investigative journalism jumboree?

All these questions are veeery uncomfortable for Arundhati and the idioits on this forum who have ceased applying their brains - becasue there is only one logical explanation.

That there is NO conspiracy.

Afzal got his due process from one of the few institutions above doubt in India. He simply spells political opportunity for JNU type leftists and liberals who have intense hatred for the idea of India because of the Hindu identity that loosly goes with that of India. They would give anything to see India blakanized and disintegrated in small African style nations. That will be the only way to disscociate the Hindu identity with India.
Ravi
Denver, USA
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
125
Hi Jaleel

".........This belief comes to us from Judaism. All the semitic religions believe it. But that doesn't mean that other people will believe in that..........."

Islamic beleifs come from Quran & Sunnah. If jews also beleive the same then it is just a coincidence - it does not mean that muslims are taking the beleives from other faiths - maybe the reveres is true.
If you read the Quran you will find the details.

Also u said that "...it does not mean other people will beleive....".

I had not mentioned my arguments to make other people beleive. It is upto them - just like many people on this forum beleive that Islam was responsible for wiping out budhism; I also have the right to beleive that this statement is false.
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Ranchi, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
124
Hi Jaleel


"........Brother you have a problem. You probably never read other religious scriptures. I do read them very often. You may like it or not, none of them are flawless. And Quran is not flawless either. ....."


Brother please read your own scriptures first - then making generalized statements.

You said that

"......Very true. But we Muslims do the worst. We believe Arabs are the most superior people on Earth .............."

Whereas this statement is totally false & baseless.
This is what Islam says :

Prophet muhammad said in his last sermon (before his death) & I am quoting it :

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action."

So I think that instead of lecturing me to read books of other religions - You should try to read about Islam first.

Its a matter of shame that you claim to be a muslim and then you criticize Islam for certain things and you don't even bother to see what Islam actually preaches regarding that topic.
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Ranchi, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
123
HI chester

"....All mankind is from Adam and Eve,.........
now that is the mother of all fallacies... the very foundation is flawed. any furhter argument will be a pointless exercise. ........."

You give me a flawless argument for the origin of mankind - i will definitely agree with you if you can prove that yr argument is flawless.
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Ranchi, India
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
122
Why is it that in most postings, we do not want to blame but the song? Why critically examine The Torah, The Gita, The Teachings of The Buddha, The Teachings of Mahavira, The Teachings of Cinfusious (Anglicised), The Bible and The Quran? These Books and Teachings have stood the test of time and are likely to remain for all time. It is the followers that are in need of introspection and change, is this not so?
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM
121
Sorry....... we do not want to blame the singer but the song
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
120
I once again salute Arundadity Roy for her humane gesture on bringing the truth about Afzal's frameup.BJP has perfected the art of creating this diabolical plots.It is not only in this case but in most of the cases against Muslims in India.RSS has well penetrted the police and intelligence and finaly judiciary.Muslims have been well cornered and they have nowhere to go.I plead with Arundadity to investigate all the cases in which Sangh Parivar is involved.For example a few months back Bajrang Dal workers died in Maharashtra while making bombs but the investigation has stalled.This organisation has a hierarchy and well known.Why not they arrest Vinay Katiyar and interrogate?!Would the police keep quiet if some Muslims had died?Some years back an explosion occurred in Uma Bharathi's house and as usual it was suspected to be the work of Muslims.Then the investigation proved that the bombs that were kept in her house had exploded!No action or enquiry.Bombs are the prerogative of the Sangh Parivar and they can use with impunity.They may even charge Muslims for their crimes.Muslims have become the punchbag of the RSS indoctrinated police,intelligence and judiciary.Not even the media spares them painting them as culprits even before the judgement by the courts.Only people like Arundadity Roy are the only hope for Muslims in India.
nasar
Raleigh, USA
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
119
This is not a personal attack on anyone and this may be a tad too much of a generalization. Still, I cannot help noticing that people with Muslim sounding names have very similar opinions and views on this forum. A deviation, or a differing opinion is hard to see. As far as non-Muslim sounding names, yes, there is a concentration of opinion along one direction. Still, it is possible to see some variation and some contrary opinions. Is this another instance demonstrating power of a particular religion on the way people think?
Akhil
Chicago, United States
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
118
Mr. Akhil, is not Religion supposed to influence the way one thinks and acts? If not what is Religion For?
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
117
The day she concocted a fake stor of murder of a person in gujarat riot who was living well in USa at that time i this Arundhati drama queen lost ever credibilit she ever had. SO m response is yawn.
Rahul
Delhi, India
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
116
Mr. Abhimanyu Sharma, if Muslims are in constant denial, are you suggesting that the Others are in constant accaptance?
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
115
Sundari, actually Narayanmurthy's wife is as qualified as he is and she took a conscious decision that only one of the couple could devote their life to work, while one was required for bringing up kids. Her own contribution and achievement is not too little.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
114
Sundari, old mac is just a loser. He is delusional as well. The only way to deal with him is to ignore his puerile pestering whines and let him stew in his own juices. I think Outlook does the same.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
113
sundari writes
-----
The women in the link you posted got where they are because of who they married. I don't call that "acting", just being a good socialite wife.
------
actually not... factual error on your part. when these women got married, they didnt marry "rich" men as you believe or have been led to believe by ur comrades.

and also they are far more qualified than reds of india, whose only qualification seems the ability to whine about enterprise.
chester pester
timbaktoo, timbaktoo
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
112
Well, homophobic, racist and sexist morons who happen to be suffering from delusions of grandeur should definitely be quarantined so that their making a nuisance in public does not become a menace. It seems to be a conspiracy to defame Christians though, considering how two morons who habitually create public nuisance here happen to both identify themselves as Christian.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
111
Ajitated Tenderass writes:

>>...The only way to deal with him is to ignore his puerile pestering whines and let him stew in his own juices.

If you try to feel her up with your attempted consolation, she'll knock you out cold. Besides, my respect for her as a person is measured in light-years even if I don't agree with her always (Its just fun to play with her fiery temper). The respect measurement shrinks to mere angstroms in your case.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
110
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
109
>>>It seems to be a conspiracy to defame Christians though, considering how two morons who habitually create public nuisance here happen to both identify themselves as Christian.

Thanks Ajit, who's the other one?
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
108
Oh, there's that "joseph from karachi"...
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
107
The Racist Homophobe seems to think he can now play me against Ajit Tendulkar by blabbering about his "respect" for a gay man he called a "fairy" not so long ago, amid a slew of disgustingly homophobic comments that he thought were funny. Its amazing how people think they can make all these homophobic remarks and then say they respect a person. A gay person can't post safely on this forum. I have had to obfuscate my gender and sexuality for all my time on this forum, only to find that it isn't the fascist Sanghis harrassing me for it, but the lone American member of the Christian Coalition.

Nobody gives a fuck about 'respect' from boring homophobic republican turds full of sententious American homilies. There's much more subtlety of intellect among your barbarian hate-targets, you Disgusting Heterosexist freak.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
106
Ah, right.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
105
Mr. Nasar, why is Ms. Arundathi Roy not for all humanity?
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
104
Hello Ms. Arundhithi Roy,

I fully agree with you that there has been many a attrocities committed by STF. You have full right to express them. I would also like you to expose the militants and there activities -like Mumbai train blasts - with the same vigour as you do for STF activities (or are you afraid). I do not appreciate your one sided approach. Moreover what is your solution for Kashmir, just give freedom. Next what, give freedom for Delhi, AP, Nagaland, Mizo, Assam, WB, ...etc. What is it than that will remain as INDIA? I think it is exteremly important that you answer this question. You can directly reach me at s_rajesh_rao at hotmail.com

I know you will not answer any of the questions that I raised. if you do not, then do not blame the police next time you write an article.

- Rajesh
Rajesh
Bern, Switzerland
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
103
Mr. Rajesh from Bern, why not? Was South Asia one country?
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
102
Dear Ms Arundhati Roy,

You are one of the sane voices in our midst. People like you stand up for the right, despite mass hysteria.

We are a democracy without constitutional liberalism. Our judiciary stinks.
Tabs
Goettingen, germany
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
101
How can we conclude that whatever Afzal ustters is true and whatever Supreme court says is necessarily wrong ? So how do we say that all the confessions of
Afzal were taken by torturing him while the confessions of other criminals were different. So each criminal may demand that they confessed under pressure and the Supreme court is the criminal ?
jaleel
luknow, India
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
100
Ms Arundhati Roy:

I am embarassed by the personal attacks on you in this forum.

There are many who are support you and pray for you. You are not alone. Carry on your good work. God bless you.
Tabs
Goettingen, germany
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
99
I was really thinking why Arundhati was not writing a lengthy piece to support the mullahs. Mullahs and Arundhati think alike. At last she came up with a 11 page "masterpiece".

But her take on Afzal, Kashmir is one sided as usual. The massacres of Sikhs in Kashmir at last found a mention in her writing, but here too she accused the Indian army for that. How do one can think the millitants of Kashmir can do no wrong ? What do we think about the half a million Kashmiri Pandits who were driven out from the valley ? Do we think they fled the place for picnic ?
Arundhati twisted the facts everywhere. Her googling was one sided. She was selective in her search. I request her to type just the following in the google search box plight + kashmiri + hindus and if she has even the least humanity left in her heart, she will not close her eyes.
jaleel
luknow, India
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
98
Hi Jaleel

".........So how do we say that all the confessions of ........Afzal were taken by torturing him while the confessions of other criminals were different.........."

Lets focus on the issue at hand. Also capital punishments are rare and there are always protests against it.
Lastly there are many things which make the case doubtful - one is the acquittal of jeelani whom police claimed to be the mastermind.
#####:::::-NNNNN-:::::#####
Ranchi, India
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
97
Unfortunately all the disclosures made by Ms Arundhati Roy is coming too late for general people to think over. Its also disquieting that various forums, including the one of which Ms Roy has been a member, and Mr. Geelani could not arrange good lawyers for Afzal. Now Kashmir Valley is coming to street to protest against the death sentence awarded to Afzal. And they were lost in oblivion when Afzal needed money to fight his case through a good lawyer.

There is no doubt the police investigation suffers from various drawbacks and police reform is essential. J&K government should at least prepare a biometric database of its citizens to prove that "foreign terrorists" are not foreigners. The Parliament Attack case is really a mystery because of the way it was executed. Was it meant to divert attention? Mystery goes on...
avneesh kumar
Delhi, India
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
96
Afzal has an angelic looking child.


All the people that are mindlessly killed by the terrorists in Delhi or Mumbai or Kashmir or Malegaon probably had angelic looking children too and many children are also (some of them may not be angelic looking) killed by the terrorists.



To speak against the establishment needs some courage. But it needs supreme courage to speak against the Mullahs who are ever ready to issue a fatwa, ever ready to go on rampage and killing spree just because they didn't like some cartoons, ever ready to put prize for beheading a Rushdie or some unknown Cartoonist, ever ready to butcher some liberal film director, ever ready for "martyrdom" by killing innocents by 100s, ever ready to go after the kafirs wherever the kafirs are outnumbered by the Mullahs. Arundhati is liberal as long as she criticizes vhp,rss,bajrang; but when she talks jamat-e-islami , it becomes "jamat-e-islami is not a sectarian organization", for SIMI she will say "it is an innocent outfit". vhp, rss, bajrangs are toothless as they can only bark, but simis, jamat-e-islamis have the capabilities bite and slit throats. So the intelligent "liberals" carefully chose the soft-targets to hit and always do their best to be in the good book of those who can behead them.





It is 99% sure that Afzal is guilty and Supreme Court was very right in giving him what he rightfully deserves (the 1% of uncertainty may be always there. I have serious doubt about G W Bush and Osama Dog Laden being the best of friends and Osama hiding in the white house). Afzal knows the truth. In that case even in the eyes of Afzal and his cohorts, Arundhati is just a tool they can use for their advantages and that is very true: Arundhati is reduced to an instrument to protect the Mullahs committing the worst crimes.



jaleel
luknow, India
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
95
I wish I had the Arundhati's command of English. Then I would have written a 12 page essay about G W Bush being an active member of Al Qaeda. I would have raised many "unansswered" questions and it doesn't really needs me to be a Sherok Holmes.

Afzal being innocent and supreme court conspiring against him is as true as Osama Bin Laden hiding in the White House.




jaleel
luknow, India
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
94
Arundhati Roy is a very able and imaginative writer. But she tends to poeticize the political issues as well, which is not always a good thing. If supreme court finds that a person is responsible for an act of terrorism that took many lives, and decides on death penalty, then you don't really have a choice, do you? If you are agianst the death penalty itself as a matter of principle, that is alright. But to suggest unsubstantiated conspiracy theories to prove you argument is a very cheap trick, that does not befit her. I think she has gotten too much in the leftist mode, that she is biased even before writing the first sentence.

Someone with extra-ordinary writing skills, like Arundhati, can make her points look valid through clever use of language, but this does not mean that she is correct. This just means that she is more persuasive and capable of generating better arguments for her points of view than an ordinary person. But does that make her point of view correct?

How much I wish that she gets back to becoming a great fiction author. I would love to read what she writes, only if it's 'official' fiction.
kunal
denver, usa
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
93
Your article is a very disturbing account of what most probably happened.What is more disturbing is the "free media" refuses to ask these questions.The politicians don`t care-they never have and never will-but if the media stops trying to highlight these lacunae in our "free and fair" judicial system-the common man has no hope left.
Prashant Malhotra
new york, United States
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
92
Tinker Belle writes:

>> The Racist Homophobe seems to think he can now play me against Ajit Tendulkar by blabbering about his "respect" for a gay man he called a "fairy" not so long ago, amid a slew of disgustingly homophobic comments that he thought were funny. Its amazing how people think they can make all these homophobic remarks and then say they respect a person.

Whether the truth is the 99.99999999% probability of you being a woman or 0.00000001% of you being a gay man, you remain a DRAMA QUEEN (your renamed identity henceforth) on this board.

>>A gay person can't post safely on this forum.

Safely hurl racist, sexist, homophobic, fascist epithets along with gratuitous profanities and demand banning of others over differences of opinion? Your safety and anonymity from behind a keyboard are far more secure than your sanity. Just a little “Mac-Daddy-vibe” makes you blow an ovary…..or a nut as the case may be.

>>I have had to obfuscate my gender and sexuality for all my time on this forum, only to find that it isn't the fascist Sanghis harrassing me for it, but the lone American member of the Christian Coalition.

Is obfuscate another word for lying? Besides, you are a bad liar. The tepid hesitance you imply doesn’t comport with your hyper aggression….so much for your desire for the safety of the shadows. In short, I am playing the saddest song on the world’s smallest violin for your travails.

>>Nobody gives a fuck about 'respect' from boring homophobic republican turds full of sententious American homilies.

If I drive your batty, how could I be boring?

>>There's much more subtlety of intellect among your barbarian hate-targets, you Disgusting Heterosexist freak.

The adjective barbarian modifies “hate-targets.” You are ascribing subtlety to barbarians; an oxymoron from an ox moron. Take a couple of Midol and breakout some hot packs…looks like it’s that time of the month again.

If you were a real homo, you would know the militant homos’ favorite epithet for heteros. Hint: It ain't "Disgusting Heterosexist freak."
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
91
Old Mac, the ease with which you hurl homophobic epithets like "fairy" and "homo" at someone indicates your deep-rooted bigotry.

I have asked you to kindly DESIST from referring to my gender and sexuality. The more you do it, the more I will ask that you be banned.

Whayt kind of person refuses to heed such a request? The kind of person who would lynch a gay person, harrass and rape people calling it "fun".

In other words, a bully.

I ask Outlook to please take note of the consistent, sexually-overcoded, homophobic harrassment Old Mac routinely engages in on this forum.

Do you see the little blurb below this section that says HATE SPEECH IS PROHIBITED?

Calling a gay man a FAIRY, FAG AND HOMO is hate speech.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
90
Gurgaon Gurgler writes:

>>Is she a 'woman of substance' because she is a 'hottie' or is she 'hottie' because she is a 'woman of substance'.

She is a hottie because she got a fetching face and a kicking silhouette...She's a woman of substance because she strokes the english language like you stroke yourself.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
89
And, my username is "Sundari", not "Tinker Belle".

Your fantasies that I am a woman may be powerful and deep-rooted, but to insist on calling me wierd names based on your fantasies indicates a higher level of lunacy.

Not to mention disrespect.

Call people by their names.

Not "fairy", "homo", "fag" or "Tinker Belle".

DO not refer to people's gender and sexuality at every single turn just because either may be different from you.

I notice that any time your interlocutors differ from you in gender or sexual orientation, you proceed to highlight this fact as if it were salient, and hurl heterosexist epithets at them.

Accuse gay men of being DRAMA QUEENS, women of being "hysterical" and black people of being lazy, drugged out and oversexed. How original.

You cannot engage in a conversation without first diminishing, racializing and sexualising your opponent in your mind.

This is a serious and final attempt at resolution. Heed it.

Dropp the references to gender and sexual orientation. Refer to people by the names they have chosen.

I am writing to the Outlook moderators right away about this.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
88
Drama Queen writes:

>>And, my username is "Sundari", not "Tinker Belle".

Your former ID was "Tinkers." "Sundari" means beautiful female. In french, it translates into Belle. You put them together and what have you got? Tinker Belle. But that is old. We move on to Drama Queen.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
87

Ghulam and others who are rushing to the defense of Roy: where is any article from her condemning terrorist acts, and writing heartfelt comments about the victims of terror, to anywhere near the length of her impassioned defense of Afzal and Geelani? Also, what are her practical suggestions about how India can deal with terrorism, and prevent more terrorist strikes? Or does she feel that India should expect, even that it deserves, more terror against it, unless alienation and other underlying causes are resolved? Is it Arundhati's position that any area or province is "occupied territory" , if there happens to be an army fighting against militant separatists. That would remove Kashmir, Assam, Nagaland and Manipur from India. What exactly is her take on the movements in these areas? Are they people's progressive movements, for more democracy, openness, pluralism and secularism, directed against a hateful, overbearing, totalitarian or rigidly feudal, entity that is actively opposing the growth of these values, namely India. If so, why isn't the world in general cheering on these supposedly wonderful causes, that promise to uplift and elevate humanity,and bring an end to the hateful, overbearing,totalitarian tyranny that India is inflicting on the people of these states?
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
86
Mocking allusions to sexual orientation of fellow posters are not kosher. Anyone outing himself voluntarily deserves respect for his courage.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
85
Old Mac, yes, you'd better move on, and address me as "Sundari". The only old id I have is Vinay, which is my name in real life. Nevertheless, even as Vinay, somebody said I was Arundhati Roy in drag, which only suggests that people had better not infer too much from a seemingly similar tone/stance/style. Arundhati Roy knows I am not her, and Tinker is likewise, is probably quite aware of his true identity.

To call me Drama Queen is homophobic and offensive.

I thought I just told you to drop the gender and sexual orientation references.

In a real life environment, this insistent and persistent homophobic name-calling and racialized, sexualized harrassment would be serious, reportable bullying. Just because this is the internet doesn't make it less so.

Drop the gender and sexual orientation references.

My forum name is Sundari. Refer to me as "Sundari", if you must. Not "Drama Queen", "fag", "Tinker Belle", "Fairy" or "Homo".
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
84
Varun, protest jouralism addresses perceived injustices, and does not aspire to be a comprehensive and coldly objective presentation of all aspects of an issue.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
83
Journalistic ethics demand that Outlook publish the Supreme Court judgement also in full. Regulations bar police and judges to defend thmselves publicly when wild allegations are levelled against them, so they are compelled to remain silent in the face of unscrupulous assaults like Arundhati Roy's which take advantage of the fact that their victims cannot hit back. At least publishing the court judgement would have helped in setting the record straight.

Also, Outlook needs to ask Arundhati Roy to make a full disclosure of where she gets her "facts" from, just the same way that invsetment advisors are asked to disclose their own portfolios. Roy presents no clinching evidence for her insinuations, so the credibility of her source of information is vital to determining the credibility of her claims.

This requirement doubly assumes significance in the light of what happened in the past. Roy was caught lying about some incidents that allegedly occured during Gujarat riots. She was apparently "misled" by her source of information, who was a gentleman called Subramaniam, an ex-police officer. It was tom-tommed that since this source was a high-ranking a police official, he knew the inner workings of Gujarat police and hence their omissions and commissions.

A few months after Roy hawked her Subramaiam-supplied knowledge, the ex-cop was arrested by Delhi police in a molestation case. On that day. the 64-year-old gentleman dropped his wife at her workplace, and on the way back, tried to indulge in a bit of "eve-teasing", Indian euphemism for sexual harassment. Unfortunately for him, his victim happened to be a plainclothes police woman. He was rounded up.
Such is the character and reputation of people that Arundhati Roy relies on for "information".

So my requests to Outlook: 1) Publish the Supreme Court judgement in full and 2) ask Arundhati Roy to disclose her sources of information.
R Chauhan
SF Bay Area, United States
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
82
Ghulam writes:

>>Mocking allusions to sexual orientation of fellow posters are not kosher. Anyone outing himself voluntarily deserves respect for his courage.

You are not getting taken in by her nonsense, are you? I happen to think she is a woman and her claim to be a "gay man" is simply not credible. The hyper-aggressive epithet hurler now playing the hapless victim? I was born at night...but not last night.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
81
Okay, but then she should focus on the "perceived injustice" of this particular case of the parliament attack , and not make extraneous and highly charged, provocative statements about the character of Kashmir i.e that is an "occuped territory". I'm not at all sure that the Indian media in general concentrated on the victims of the parliament attack, except a reference to one of the women guards who died. In other words, Roy's diatribes are not a tiny, miniscule viewpoint measured against the massive attention given to the victims of the parliament attack.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
80
>> "her claim to be a "gay man" is simply not credible"

None of our concern.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
79
It is a shame that so much has been made of Mrs Roy's error regarding Mr Jaffri's daughter. The erroneous story of the daughter's rape and murder was in TIME magazine as well as in a report prepared by a group consisting of a former IGP and a former finance secretary. Wildly overplaying this error serves two malicious purposes simultaneously, firstly to discredit Ms Arundhati Roy, and secondly to trivialize the horrid story of the vicious and targeted attack on the house of and the murder of the former Member of Parliament Ehsan Jaffri.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
78
Kudos to outlook and Ms. Roy for not being swept by the Mob frenzy. Congratulations for being rational even in irrational circumstances and being few in the business with common sense. It is so true that common sense is not common.
Ambuj
Saint Petersburg, USA
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
77
>> firstly to discredit Ms Arundhati Roy, and secondly to trivialize the horrid story of the vicious and targeted attack on the house of and the murder of the former Member of Parliament Ehsan Jaffri.

Firstly, I hold Arundhati Roy to her own standards of accuracy and correctness in reporting, not mine.

Secondly, Roy's own lies discredit her. It is quite superfluous for anybody to expend energy on discrediting her.

Thirdly, Roy's purpose here is to trivialize the horrid story of the vicious and targeted attack on the house of India's democracy and the related attempt to murder all of our Members of parliament. I am exposing it.

As I said, I hold A Roy to her own standards of accuracy in reporting, not mine. Roy accuses media -- presumably those sections of media that don't quite wash her feet like Outlook does -- of "lying" in the case of Geelani. Could they simply have been doing their job? After all, the trial court convicted him. Was the trial court also "lying"? After all, even the Supreme Court said that the needle of suspicion pointed towards him. Was the Supreme Court lying? Roy pretends that these questions don't arise. Instead, brazenly accusing the "media" of "lying" serves her agenda of trivializing the vicious assault on our parliament.
R Chauhan
SF Bay Area, United States
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
76
>> I hold A Roy to her own standards of accuracy in reporting, not mine. Roy accuses media .... of "lying" in the case of Geelani.

Mrs Roy is not a news reporter. She writes her pieces based on what reputable reportes report. If an error creeps in, she corrects it. Whether reporters did an adequate job investigating the Geelani case or not was answered by the court's eventual decision. Her version of the case was vindicated.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
75
Oh man! Yet another rant by this nutty woman -- Arundhati! Sixteen pages of jumbled anti-Indian tirade! Does a 'political' Booker for an unreadable book give her a license to spout unadultrated nonsense ad infinitum? India an occupying power in Kashmir? Give me a fucking break!! Where does she get her history from? Has anyone ever heard her complain even once about ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pundits? And what about the seasonal and routine murder of innocent pilgrims trekking up the hills of Kashmir to honor their 'pre-Islamic' Gods? Could she be moved as an Indian by a cowardly act of murder and mayhem at the sacred temple of Indian democracy -- flawed as it may be?? It seems she would have India meekly turn Kashmir over to Islamo-fascists (whose bidding she does so well) and help create yet another failed state on its northern border. Why stop there? After all, didn't Nizam of Hyderabad also want to be part of Pakistan? Maybe, it is time to revisit that too?

This woman cynically uses a legitimate difference of opinion on capital punishment to serenade us with her tirade on the errors of Indian way. Gosh! It must be good to be Arundhati! Who else could foment a mutiny in the American military by urging blacks to defy orders from their superiors!! Of course, she is entitled to her diabolical logic masked as supreme sermon from up high.....but to give her 16 pages in a popular periodical is a travesty and sheer waste of bytes.

To be sure, I too do not want to see this man hang. Instead, he should spend a good deal of his life incarcerated in some Indian hell hole so he can reflect on the promise of 72 virgins while simultaneously trying to remain one himself. On the bright side for Arundhati, it will give her yet another cause celebre to spew anti Indian hate. Thank you Outlook for such a rush....I was begining to feel oddly at ease with the world! We need clowns like her to know better.
amit sinha
Pittsboro, USA
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
74
Arundhati Roy's article is interesting and different from all the others we have seen so far in a number of ways:

1. She is moving outside the ambit of "innocent or guilty?" questions about Afzal per se, which the court has already thrashed through and come to a verdict on.

2. Rather, she suggests that we look at what, apart from a life, would be lost by hanging Afzal in such a hurry. Unlike the other authors we've read so far, she's not making the unproveable "Kashmiris and/or Muslims will be hurt" argument. Refreshing.

3. Instead, she's saying Afzal has the clues to a larger story, possibly leading to the doorstep of BJP leadership. This is remarkable. Nobody has said this so far.

3. She does not naively valorize any group of players in Kashmir. Also remarkable.

So, she's saying Afzal may be legally guilty, but the masters he was serving may in fact have been in the Indian government at that time!

I do have a few questions though. If this is all a BJP set-up, were the people who actually carried out the attack unaware that they would be killed? If they knew they'd be killed, what could have motivated them to do this? If they didn't know they would be killed, they were veeery stupid.

Much of this hinges on who all the people in this plot assumed they were working for. If Afzal knew he was working for the Indian government and/or its "informal" affliates, then it would seem that he is legally innocent. But such a remarkable story could hardly have gone unnoticed, if it came out at the court hearing.

Or perhaps, they didn't know that they were getting orders from the Indian government. Maybe they thought they were getting orders from a Pakistani or Kashmiri militant outfit. If this were the case, they would be legally culpable.


So maybe, what is needed is a thorough investigation of this organization (STF) that he and others thought they were working for. Again, this may already have been thrashed through by the court. I agree that we need to read the SC judgment in its entirety, as well as the complete story of all the procedural twists and turns.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
73
>> She writes her pieces based on what reputable reportes report.

So do journalists, for that matter. They rely on sources.

Not being a professional reporter does not unburden one of the obligation of telling truth and only the truth. Faruki seems to be under the naive belief that since Arundhati Roy is a fiction-writer, she is licensed to fictionalize real-life incidents.

>> Her version of the case was vindicated.

If Geelani's acquittal 'vindicates' her, then it follows that Afzal's conviction (thrice over) damns her.
R Chauhan
SF Bay Area, United States
Oct 23, 2006 12:00 AM
72
>Chandra, Arundhati Roy has influenced people worldwide towards progressive causes, just with the power of her writing. Unlike the bunch of aunties whose only claim to fame is being married to rich men.

I agree that Arundhati has influenced people worldwide, but I think the only result of that influence has been cocktail party talk, pointless outrage in blogs, rallies, and a hellstorm of text, text, text and yakking. She is significant only if you think that this echo chamber of outrage and language is achieving something, other than making the outrage/text-junkies feel smug and satisfied.

I happen to think that this "bewitching" language chamber is a terrible waste of time and energy. I only value real actions that help real people needing real help. The three ladies (and many others who prefer to remain unknown) are involved in that kind of action, when they don't really need to be. Most people in their fiscal position (including Ms. Roy) keep the money to themselves, or use it to try to attract attention to themselves.

So I will support the "aunties" anyday, they make a real difference to poor people's lives. Ms. Roy, on the other hand, makes a difference to journalists' lives, either boosting their careers by giving them interesting copy, or writing funky prose on controversial issues to boost their magazine sales. She is the media's bitch, as the American expression goes. Which is a rather sad place for a gifted writer like her to end up in.

So sure, she is significant, if you value that kind of significance. I don't.
chandra
Portland, USA
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
71
>>>Which is more retarding being a Pakistan or a Sudra?

I assume you mean a "Pakistani". It all depends on who you are, what your class background is, whether you're rural or urban, a man, woman or hermaphrodite, gay or straight.

About half the "Sudra" groups are doing very well, own lots of land etc in India. The artisanal Sudras are doing pretty badly overall, though government emporia and the promotion of cottage industry sometimes alleviates their lot.

A year ago I read about a Dalit group of tanners and leatherworkers in Rajashtan getting fabukously wealthy due to leather export and international (NRI) companies that decided to source directly from them.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
70
>>>Mr. Prithviraj Chauhan, does not economic gain follow from moving out of the lower castes?

I haven't read what Prithviraj said yet, but your question seems a little nonsensical.

As far as I know, no magical law exists that says your economic status will improve if you adopt the name of a "higher" caste or change your religion.

If there are incentives attached to either of the above activities, then a rise in economic status may occur.

In 19th c Kerala, I've heard that people converted because upper-caste Hindus treated Muslims and Christians better than they did low-caste Hindus. Upon converting, the same man who had to speak from outside the gate, could now come and stand on the porch.

But the cow-belt chaddis seem to have plugged up this avenue by treating Muslims and Christians as badly as they treat low-caste Hindus.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
69
>>>It is obvious that there is an absolutely peaceful and fraternal co-existence of a spiritual kind amongst the different Hindu castes."

Obvious when you smoke crack, but not otherwise.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
68
Part 1 of 3

In Afzal's words:

>>...In 1989...I was only 20... returned without training... I put down my gun and enrolled myself in DU... (((I kept the gun for four years)))… in 1993 whithout ever having been a practising militant (without killing anyone), I voluntarily surrendered to the BSF.. that is when my nightmare began...
(((It never occurred to me since I was not a practising terrorist so, why surrender? simple, because I wanted to brand myself a 'TERRORIST'.)))

>>I live in Sopre J&K

>>in the year 2000 Army used to harass me almost daily (((seven years after you surrendered guns))),

>>as a surrendered militant we had to mark Attendance at Army camp every Sunday.

>>In June/ July 2000 I migrated from my village and went to town Baramullah.

>>I was having a shop of distribution of Surgical instruments which I was running on commission basis. (((we may call it partnership of a sort)))

>>One day S.T.F picked me up and they continuously tortured me for five days. Somebody had given information to S.T.F that I was again indulging in militant activities.
>>I was kept by them in custody for about 25 days and I got myself released by paying Rs 1 lakh. ….. Thereafter I was given a certificate by the S.T.F and they made me a Special Police Officer for six months.

(((Strange are the ways of STF then, because on the one hand they charged me for involvement in insurgency and on the other they appointed me to fulfill counter-insurgency.)))

>>They were knowing I will not work for them. (((Why did they suspect you again?)))
contd....
Sr. Vikas
New York, United States
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
67
Part 2 of 3

>>Tariq met me in Palhalan S.T.F camp where I was in custody of S.T.F.

>>Tariq met me later on in SriNagar and told me he was basically working for S.T.F. I told him I was also working for S.T.F.

>>Mohammad who was killed in Attack on Parliament was along with Tariq.

(((But while cross examinations and identification of the slain terrorists I decided not to recognize mohammad because then it will go against me.)))

Witness Akbar who had deposed in the court that he had apprehended Shaukat and me in Sri Nagar had conducted a raid at my shop about a year prior to December 2001 and told me that I was selling fake surgical instruments and he took Rs 5000/- from me.
(((because akbar helped apprehend me and shaukat, I am charging him in the collection of Rs. 5000/- ransom)))

I was tortured at Special Cell and one Bhoop Singh even compelled me to take urine and I saw family of S.A.R. Geelani also there, Geelani was in miserable condition. He was not in a position to stand. We were taken to Doctor for examination but instructions used to be issued that we have to tell Doctor that everything was alright with a threat that if we do not do so we be again tortured."

To the court:

"Mohammad the slain terrorist of Parliament attack had come along with me from Kashmir. The person who handed him over to me is Tariq. Tariq is working with Security Force and S.T.F JK Police. Tariq told me that if I face any problem due to Mohammad he will help me as he knew the security forces and S.T.F very well... Tariq had told me that I just have to drop Mohammad at Delhi and do nothing else. And if I would not take Mohammad with me to Delhi I would be implicated in some other case. I under these circumstances brought Mohammad to Delhi under a compulsion without knowing he was a terrorist."

(((So Dear, you took mohammad to Delhi, then accompanied with him for white ambassador, then placed order for amm. nitrate and second day went to collect it and the witness shopkeeper is lying to police and the judges, the two phones and sims you bought were one for you and the other for your wife. your purpose to come to Delhi was that you got a job in Delhi or you wanted to open up business and your business required two phones and 50 kilo amm. nitrate.)))
(((mohammad was to go abroad... but he also wanted to learn driving so I helped him get a white ambassador.. we did not like other colors..)))
contd...
Sr. Vikas
New York, United States
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
66
part 3 of 3

So, based on Afzal’s account A. Roy has:

a picture emerging of someone who could be a key player.

1. 'Witness Akbar' (PW 62), Mohd Akbar, Head Constable, Parimpora Police Station, &
2. the J&K policeman who signed the Seizure Memo at the time of Afzal's arrest.

Afzal describes how he was tortured in the STF camp—with electrodes on his genitals and chillies and petrol in his anus. He mentions the name of Dy Superintendent of Police Dravinder Singh who said he needed him to do a 'small job' for him in Delhi. He also says that some of the phone numbers mentioned in the chargesheet can be traced to an STF camp in Kashmir.
(before or after he was apprehended for 12/13? not clear!)

A. Roy's Defence:

It is Afzal's story that gives us a glimpse into what life is really like in the Kashmir Valley. Security Forces battle Militants and innocent Kashmiris are caught in the cross-fire. In the adult version, Kashmir is a valley awash with militants, renegades, security forces, double-crossers, informers, spooks, blackmailers, blackmailees, extortionists, spies, both Indian and Pakistani intelligence agencies, human rights activists, NGOs and unimaginable amounts of unaccounted-for money and weapons.

A Roy's Verdict:

There are not always clear lines that demarcate the boundaries between all these things and people, it's not easy to tell who is working for whom.

A. Roy's findings:

Truth, in Kashmir, is probably more dangerous than anything else. The deeper you dig, the worse it gets. At the bottom of the pit is the SOG and STF that Afzal talks about. These are the most ruthless, indisciplined and dreaded elements of the Indian security apparatus in Kashmir. Unlike the more formal forces, they operate in a twilight zone where policemen, surrendered militants, renegades and common criminals do business. They prey upon the local population, particularly in rural Kashmir. Their primary victims are the thousands of young Kashmiri men who rose up in revolt in the anarchic uprising of the early '90s and have since surrendered and are trying to live normal lives.

Verdict again:

Can young Kashmiri men be blamed if the lesson they draw from Afzal's story is that it would be not just stupid, but insane to surrender their weapons and submit to the vast range of myriad cruelties the Indian State has on offer for them? (((so fight your battle even harder/ keep your families all over India and if your battle is successful then bleed India again for opening borders everywhere so that you then can not just carry out 12/13 but repeat 7/11 as many times and as many places as possible)))
Sr. Vikas
New York, United States
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
65
I'm trying to figure out how this thread got so hopelessly off-track, and here's what it looks like:

1. Somebody mentioned Pakistan's responsibility for the mess Kashmir is in.

2. Joseph, schooled in Pakistani history, where everything is always everybody else's fault, cannot bear this.

3. Joseph decides to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater to change the subject. (he starts bleating about "the caste system").

4. People post more about Pakistan and Kashmir. Joseph keeps saying "lalalalaaaa caste system".

5. Prithvirak Chauhan meanwhile decides Sundari, because of the name, must be a woman.

Unwittingly, he, like Old Mac, has made his first pass at a gay man.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
64
>>Unwittingly, he, like Old Mac, has made his first pass at a gay man.

the only revolution that real fairies want is a fashion and wardrobe revolution...
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
63
>>>the only revolution that real fairies want is a fashion and wardrobe revolution...

If that's what you think, that's what you think. I know what kind of revolution I want, and I suppose it helps in some ways if homophobes think gay men are into fashion and nothing else. What better cover could one have.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
62
Devastating. Forget Afzal, it's the last line that's the killer. On second thoughts, don't forget Afzal.
avi subramaniam
chennai, India
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
61
I am frankly very disturbed by this article and glad about the freedom of the press. I am a hindu, who in 1992 was a teenager and was against muslims carried away by the BJP propoganda. I want to do something.........what? Fight for justice as a human being and not as an Indian only.
Ramesh Chhugani
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
60
Dear Editor
After reading Arundhati, it becomes clear that all Indians are not swayed by the jingoistic Indian media for which every Kashmiri and every Muslim is a terrorist and Pakistani agent.
We in Kashmir know that Afzal was framed by the fascist Indian police and judiciary but then none listened to our pleas.
I wish the Kashmiri intellectuals were as brave and bold as Arundhati who believes in straight talk. Unfortunately our so-called intellectuals have sold themselves to occupationial indian government for petty perks and incentives. And once they retire from service, they suddenly turn pro-Kashmiri and pro-independence.
Finally, I believe that it's high time for New Delhi to read writing on the wall, which is loud and clear: You've leave Kashmir, today or tomorrow.

usman
srinagar, India
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
59
Dear Joseph here is my thoughts for you, I don't care whether there are differences in Islam or Christianity both religions are authoritarian.
There is no inherent caste system in Hinduism (except for the intangible brahminical ownership on the religious texts, which I strongly believe should be open to all classes), for example consider the Sanskrit text "Chaturvarnam maya shrustam GUNA KARMA VIBHAGASHAHA" it says the societal difference is based on one's GUNA and KARMA. If you want to ponder further on the meaning of GUNA and KARMA search engines should fetch results.
In the due course of time people remembered "Chaturvarnam maya shrustam" and forgot "GUNA KARMA VIBHAGASHAHA"

The reason for conversion of masses in India is because of their economic status and illiteracy. Unfortunately these are taken as an advantage by the well funded Christian missionaries operating in India.
As a short term measure we should have laws to curb conversion on a long term we should have policies beneficial to the lower strata in India.

Don't you think it is cool being an Indian and a Hindu? Where talking, discussing and exploring about religion is encouraged, rather than forced to follow a book.
Just think about it may be we can add your count to the dwindling population of Hindus in Pakistan.
Wunder
dubai, United Arab Emirates
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
58
There is this woman who just yaks based on her success, and then there are these women, who've chosen both not to yak, and to *act*...


http://www.rediff.com/m...infy.htm?q=bp&file=.htm

chandra
Portland, USA
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
57
>>>There is this woman who just yaks based on her success, and then there are these women, who've chosen both not to yak, and to *act*...

That's a dumb comparison. The women in the link you posted got where they are because of who they married. I don't call that "acting", just being a good socialite wife.

Arundhati Roy has got where she is on her own strength and talent. That probably explains the extraordinary amount of jealousy and hatred she evokes in people. It is a sexist world, after all.

Good for you Arundhati. I don't quite agree with some of what you say here and the polemical, propagandistic way you present it, but that's you're style and it has, in the past, had very powerful effects.

Chandra, Arundhati Roy has influenced people worldwide towards progressive causes, just with the power of her writing. Unlike the bunch of aunties whose only claim to fame is being married to rich men.

get over your jealousy and learn to appreciate this feisty woman.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
56
Tinker Belle writes:

>>Arundhati Roy has got where she is on her own strength and talent. That probably explains the extraordinary amount of jealousy and hatred she evokes in people. It is a sexist world, after all.

So why isn’t just a jealous world? After all, more casually the sexist accusation is hurled, the quicker it becomes a cliché and less effective in communicating a serious problem.

>>I don't quite agree with some of what you say here and the polemical, propagandistic way you present it, but that's you're style and it has, in the past, had very powerful effects.

I don’t agree with Roy’s analysis on the Afzal conviction either. But all means is that being rich, famous or powerful doesn’t mean infallible.

>>Chandra, Arundhati Roy has influenced people worldwide towards progressive causes, just with the power of her writing. Unlike the bunch of aunties whose only claim to fame is being married to rich men.

dripping venom at WOMEN who made their own life choices and continue to contribute substantially in their own ways…that’s sexist by definition.

>>get over your jealousy and learn to appreciate this feisty woman.

Roy’s a woman of substance. That she is fallible doesn't undo the reality that she's a hottie.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
55
Old Mac, would you please quit stalking me on every fucking article with your racist, sexist shit?

Outlook, you need to ban people whose only aim in life seems to be stalk others with homophobic, racist and sexist epithets.

I don;t find it funny you sick racist homophobe. Quit addressing me.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
54
Arundhati Roy's campaigns are based on dirty tricks. Some of these tricks are subtle: insinuations, innuendos and whisper campaigns. Some are brazen and blatant: lies and fabrications. Remember the "killing of Ehasan Jaffri's daughter" episode? The one in which Roy was caught lying red-handed?

Her latest crusade is no different. More than ten full pages of cleverly-orchestrated campaign of insinuations, distortions of facts, rumour-mongering, and -- suppression of vital facts.

She writes: "On the first day of the trial, the lawyer appointed by the trial court judge agreed to accept Afzal's identification of the bodies and the postmortem reports as undisputed evidence without formal proof!"

Read carefully what follows, because Roy is deliberately suppressing a crucial fact here.

Afzal Guru refused to hire a lawyer. Note: he did not express his inability to hire a lawyer. He just *refused* to hire one. So the court appointed one for him. That lawyer's name is Seema Gulati. This was the lawyer that Roy mentions above, and this was the lawyer that she finds fault with for agreeing to accept Afzal's identification of the bodies of slain terrorists.

A biased lawyer? Or an incompetent one perhaps?

But, six weeks later, she quit. She quit because she took up the defence of -- hold your breath -- SAR Geelani, that much-maligned innocent "victim" of the Special Cell. Weird, wouldn't you think? A lawyer good enough for Geelani is not good enough for Afzal?

But more importantly: why was Afzal's lawyer stolen from him by Geelani? Who advised Geelani to hire the very lawyer representing Afzal Guru, and why? Inquiring minds want to know, and Arundhati Roy is definitely in a position to enlighten us. Tell us, lady: why did Geelani grab the very lawyer that the court appointed for Afzal? After all, Geelani and Afzal are not rivals, are they? In fact, isn't Geelani today in the forefront of the campaign to rescue Afzal? What was going on here?

The strange twist to the story does not end there. After Gulati quit, the court asked Afzal as to who would he like to represent him in the proceedings. Afzal named four lawyers. ALL of them refused to represent him. The court then appointed one Neeraj Bansal.

Who is this Neeraj Bansal? It turns out that he is the deputy of Seema Gulati. Her junior partner.

So, as it turns out, the lawyer who defended Afzal in the lower court was the junior partner of a lawyer trusted by none other than his co-accused, SAR Geelani.

Why is Arundhati Roy pushing these important facts under the carpet?

There is one more issue: kicking off the crusade to save Afzal, Nandita Haskar, involved very closely with Geelani's defence, claimed that Afzal did not have a lawyer to represent him. But Arundhati Roy admits that he did indeed have a lawyer. One of the two ladies is obviously peddling a lie.

Which one?
R Chauhan
SF Bay Area, United States
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
53
Tinker Belle writes:

>>Old Mac, would you please quit stalking me on every fucking article with your racist, sexist shit?

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

>>Outlook, you need to ban people whose only aim in life seems to be stalk others with homophobic, racist and sexist epithets.

Blah, blah, blah...the lust to "ban" opinion rears its ugly head..

>>I don;t find it funny you sick racist homophobe. Quit addressing me.

The readers may find immense humor, knowledge, wit, forensic skill and plain enjoyment in this game of whack a marxist mole...
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
52
"Just listen to this : "Did the confession precipitate the war, or did the need for a war precipitate the need for the confession?""

I listened to it. I wanna ask the lady a question: does she have any evidence that "need for a war" precipitated the need for a confession?

She doesn't have any?? And why not? Don't the standards that she applies to courts -- and to the police, to the sections of media that don't dote on her -- apply to herself? Shouldn't she provide evidence for her wild claims? Or does the Booker prize privilege one to vomit bullshit generally?

Allright. There are other Big Whispered Questions as well, and Arundhati Roy is starring in some of them.

As we speak, Roy and her hubby, Pradeep Kishen, are in the middle of a land-grab scam. They built a posh villa -- fit only for the leaders proles -- in Pachmarhi, amidst rolling greens and picturesque hills. But local conservation laws prohibit such construction. A tribal, Vijay Singh, filed a case that the Roys also grabbed his land to build a road to their villa.

Big Whispered Question #1: Did the Roys bribe their way to buying land and building a holiday home in a prohibited area?

Big Whispered Question #2: Is Roy's latest crusade a diversionary tactic meant keep the land-grab scam away from public attention?
R Chauhan
SF Bay Area, United States
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
51
>>>enjoyment in this game of whack a marxist mole...

The lynch mob mentality at work again. Someone tells you back the fuck off, I don't find it funny, and like a true schoolyard bully you keep it up.

Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
50
Tinker Belle writes:

>>..Someone tells you back the fuck off, I don't find it funny, and like a true schoolyard bully you keep it up.

Okay. But do not mistake my mercy for persuasivness of your whine.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
49
Ms Roy is either a bit naive or is too preoccupied with herself that she believes she knows everything and is a legal expert (for all the noble legal sentiments, retribution, albeit controlled by state, keeping social order, and responding to social needs etc. are some of the primary motives of legal rules. These are man made rules made with a purpose not rules given by an all knowing God of goodness). I have no idea nor any preferential information on the guilt or innocence of this person. I am against death penalty and seeing that this person is also a political activist, would really like to have his life spared. But I am not sure the self-important arguments that Ms Roy offers such as: "I was there because I believe Mohammed Afzal is only a pawn in a very sinister game. He's not the Dragon he's being made out to be, he's only the Dragon's footprint. And if the footprint is made to 'become extinct', we'll never know who the Dragon was" is hardly admissible in a legal sense. And I really wish if there is anyone else out there who has some legaly admissible reason to exonerate this person, he/she should come forward soon. Still, using this issue to write a polemic on the lines of Emily Zola's contribution to Dreyfuss affair is a bit over the top from Ms Roy's part. Probably she indeed has delusions of grandeur and visions of immortality and call of centuries to come pretty frequently.
Akhil
Chicago, United States
Oct 22, 2006 12:00 AM
48
Everytime an article by Arundhati Roy appears, the same old shrill voices come out with personal attacks of a vituperative kind, ill-motivated web searches come up with links to the same old derogatory articles, and an avalanche of insults is let loose to befog her arguments. Admittedly she is a polemicist, and as such her writings consist of impassioned articulations of under-represented views, sometimes mixed with statements which may appear to some to be exaggerated or extremist. One does not have to agree with everything she says. But, as I said last year, India would be much poorer if we did not have her and others of her ilk.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
47

Roy cites a few desultory examples to make the readers think "Hmmm, there;s more than meets the eye in Kashmir". What about 200,000 Kashmiri Hindus thrown out of the valley, the disruption of the election in 2002, leading to the loss of 500 lives; the annual attacks on Amarnath pilgrims; the killing of many tourists in this past year, the many attemps to assassinate chief ministers like Farooq Abdullah and MM.Syed? Don't tell me Roy thinks these are all acts staged by the the Special Operations Group of the Ksshmir state police? Sick!
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
46
another waste of precious oxygen. the booker winning hooker - A roy
chester pester
timbaktoo, timbaktoo
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
45
Ghulam,
"What is most frightening in this story is the extent of police culpability, and the degree of press credulity. "
What is appalling is your credulity in according the benefit of doubt to a media-hogging con-artist like Arundhati Roy. As Sriram (below) asks: "If Afzal being alive is the key to know the 'real truth', is he the one who is hiding something? ".
That Arundhati Roy is always ready to side with terrists and insult India and it's citizens lives is a well established fact by now.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
44
To all those critisizing Roy:
Why this unnecessary name calling to an author? just because she doesnt match your ideology? No one has provided even a half-witted reponse to questions she has raised!
Samit
New York, India
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
43

Samit, the criticism of Roy could start with her virtually libellous, treasonous description of Kashmir as occupied territory. It could continue with her utter trivialisation of the attack on the parliament itself, and her over-focus on the investigation,in which the police were under pressure to 'find the culprits'( a major point missed by Roy); on her listing of a few incidents where the security forces were in error; in her total amnesia toward the day-to day terrorist attacks, which are way, way out of proportion to any ground realities of oppression; in her total failure to mention the kind of freedoms the Kashmiris do enjoy, which is really everything except the freedom to separate; in failing to mention that India has not colonised Kashmir with settlers, not suppressed the local language, not superexploited the labour to extract super-profits, not promoted a racist master-race/subject race dichotomy. In fact, criticism of Roy could be based as much on what she fails to mention, as what she does.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
42
"We know this much: On December 13, 2001, the Indian Parliament was in its winter session. (The NDA government was under attack for yet another corruption scandal.)"

What has the "corruption scandal" got to do with the rest of the article? But that goes as a devastating argument in progressive circles.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
41
So far, I have read till here:

" S.A.R. Geelani's lawyer Nandita Haksar put together an All India Defence Committee for S.A.R. Geelani (of which I was a member). There was a coordinated campaign by activists, lawyers and journalists to rally behind Geelani. "

I am just intrigued. Why did they not rally behind Afzal then? Because they thought till then that he was not worth rallying behind?
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
40
In an answer to a direct question, Afzal clearly said that Geelani had nothing to do with the attack and was completely innocent. At this point, ACP Rajbir Singh shouted at him and forced him to "shut up, and requested the media not to carry this part of Afzal's 'confession'. And they obeyed! The story came out only three months later when the television channel Aaj Tak re-broadcast the 'confession' in a programme called Hamle Ke Sau Din (Hundred Days of the Attack) and somehow kept this part in. "

Can this please be corroborated with Aaj Tak? Or a perusal of all that appeared as reportage of this press conference? From what I dimly remember reading about it, it was shown not just on Aaj Tak but surely other TV channels must have been covering it too? What were the conscience of the nation like Barkha Dutt, Rajdeep Sardesai, N. Ram, Vinod Mehta et al doing then?
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
39
"(For some reason, by then Afzal had also changed his mind about Geelani and implicated him completely in the conspiracy.)"

Solid point. Surely something the lawyers and the press covered? Why didn't A.Roy speak up before now? Why didn't she question it when she was pleading for Geelani? Or maybe she did? I plan to read her earlier piece on Geelani after I finish reading this one.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
38
After reading 16 pages of her non-sense, I have one question. Does Roy atleast accept that attacking parliament is a crime?
suman
harrisburg, usa
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
37
" "The first circumstance against the accused Afzal is that Afzal knew who the deceased terrorists were. He identified the dead bodies of the deceased terrorists. On this aspect the evidence remains unshattered."

But surely the SC cannot be that foolish? Or is it? It sets aside the confession but continues to quote it? Damn, this would require more painskating reading of the SC judgement now.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
36
Fair enough. Apart from not telling us why she didn't rally behind Afzal's case though she had admittedly obviously studied it far better than I till there was a barrage of articles by Outlook, I didn't learn anything new from her that hadn't been pointed out by some 1000 or so articles that Outlook has put out it in a few days. If only a fraction of the same zeal were shown for saving other innocents, this country's judiciary and police would at least bother to get their act together a bit. That a new curative appeal has been filed in the SC only now also makes one wonder at what the so called big legal eagle activists had been up to up to now. Admittedly, people like me have no right to criticise, but then I so far at least had not been a self-proclaimed member activist of save illegal detainees or whatever this bunch of well-meaning humanrights wallahs have formed.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
35
But the animus agaist NDA is quite striking, if only to be expected. But why is this UPA shielding the guilty cops now? Why not get some tough cookies to look at the case anew?
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
34
Ajit, all this is just a last ditch attempt, a red herring, sort of. This truth will die with Afzal line is laughable.
btw, there was a reference somewhere in the article about Kashmir "and" India. With such an attitude towards India and its integrity, why should we invest in her 16 page drivel?
Sriram
Chennai, India
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
33
Ajit:

You have tremendous tenacity to go thro' the 16 turgid pages. Amazing! I could not stand the "holier than thou" tone of the article and left it and went directly to the last page to see how she concluded.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
32
Sriram and Ganesan, I just wanted to see what she had to say. It was painful, particularly after reading through the thousand and one articles put up on this very issue in the last few days. She didn't say anything new, but I am tempted to examine on what grounds the Supreme Court after dismissing the confessions held Afzal guilty. I think she and others are guilty of egregiously lying when they totally omit the SC saying that they are giving Geelani the benefit of doubt only, and do not think he is innocent -- the SC judgement in Geelani case sounded so much like the trial judge in Mattoo case saying that he knew the guy was guilty but was letting them off. I understand the police have a thankless job; but I also think that it does not allow them to be criminals themselves. We would be a mature democracy and truly be able to hold our head up against the terror-exporting despotic lands of the pure only when we ourselves practice what we preach. Why be afraid of the truth: if he deserves death, let the reasons be transparent, otherwise let the law of the land not get into judging the collective conscience of the citizens. We should be firm: if there is clear proven evidence, let's not worry about the mood in Sri Nagar because then we should be able to share that evidence. People have to know that the rule of the law obtains. Then only would they respect it. But let us not become that we profess to despise ourselves. I am not suggesting turning the other cheek: just being firm and hard-nosed.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
31
I don't like Srimati Roy (our closet Amy Sedaris), but I think hanging Afzal probably wouldn't get India anything. It is better to let him go, and I say this not because I oppose capital punishment (which I do oppose).

I say this in a calculated, cynical, fashion. Letting him go is better for India in the grand game that it is involved in. It will win India the war for respect, ultimately that's what all wars are about. India has already won it to a large extent, and Pakistan has lost it on almost all the fronts. But letting Afzal go would show that India is a country that can afford to do such a thing, and that such things do happen in India.

Contrary to Roy's argument, letting him go won't tell us anything about the parliament attacks, nor will it improve the ways of the Delhi (or any other) police. It will not make up for the torture done on Afzal (and countless others across India everyday) in the name of justice.

After all these days in custody, I doubt whether Afzal even wants to be alive, or whether it means anything for him to be alive. So letting him go is not even an act of mercy, or standing by the never-hang-the-innocent principle. At this point, the hang-not-hang is a cynical political game, and Afzal is just a pawn. If letting him go is better for India's side of the board, that is the better move.

On the details, I agree with Roy on the ground realities of Kashmir (similar to other such war zones, familiar to anyone who has read catch-22, but didn't they bring it on themselves?). Also on the moronic press (same everywhere), and the police playing their own games (again, same).

To all those complaining, frankly, how many people here would go into a police station in India and make a complaint? I walk faster when I see a police station. How many would expect to get justice if they are named in a complaint? How many would willingly give their sister/daughter in marriage to a policeman? Most of them are just goons, but they serve a purpose, so we tolerate them.

But that's not to say that she's right on everything. For instance, how come she is only worried about the people living in Kashmir, not about the Kashmiri Pandits living in Delhi slums? And how come she doesn't talk about the atrocities organised Muslims commit on themselves and others, such as the Marad massacre in her own state Kerala, which was supported by a Muslim League minister?

And while into the conceptual unmooring, how about starting with the Good liberal/Bad parivar ideology? Or good Muslim&Dalit /bad upper-caste-Hindu ideology? Or anarchy-is-nice/state-is-bad ideology? How about recognizing that democracy is just a system we are working with, and it is not perfect, and it may not be advisable to mount shrill campaigns against its institutions even if they are not working all that well? How about doing some real work that help some poor people, instead of yakking in the media about high-profile issues all the time?
chandra
Portland, USA
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
30
And I also did not get an answer from her as to why Haksar (whose outfit she says she belongs to) and gang lied about Colin Gonsalves and why they were silent till the date and time of hanging had been announced. Why were they only concentrating on Geelani? It is a fair question to ask because they are the ones who excel in adopting a higher moral ground. And why this delay in filing the curative petition?
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
29
Varun Shekhar writes:

>>Samit, the criticism of Roy could start with her virtually libellous, treasonous description of Kashmir as occupied territory.

In other words, she doesn't buy the meta-narrative that you uncritically swallowed wholesale. Thus, it obviates any criticism of the points she actually raises in the article (since that might require work).

A substantive criticism is her dwelling on conspiratorial insinuation and irrelevant factors to Afzal’s role in the attack on the Parliament.

She insinuates that NDA mired in a corruption scandal provides a political motive to fabricate a case against an innocent man and send him to the gallows. She noting of unusual speed with which Delhi police claim to have solved the case that is merely suspicion and not facts about Afzal’s role in the attack. Does she have facts to show the case was precooked against these individuals?

The fact we don’t know the identities of the five killed terrorists raises concerns about Delhi police’s lack of professionalism. But it is irrelevant. What would be relevant is if Afzal had an alibi, boinking his girlfriend or the like, at every stage of the planning and attacking the Parliament. That India went on a war-footing against Pakistan is irrelevant to this case. The laughable “home ministry sticker” is an ambiguous piece of evidence. It is just as likely a put up job by Delhi police as by the terrorists who compete with each other furiously in the not-too-bright sweepstakes.

Her implicit criticism that an entire case is made by a single piece of direct evidence just means she is no lawyer. The fact that the Indian Supreme Court is addicted to vacuous dicta raises no factual issue of his Afzal’s guilt or innocence. She is wrong in analogizing capital punishment to lynching because the later has no due process and only mob passion. She is wrong to be shocked by the lowest comedy from the highest court because that is the norm rather than an Afzal exception.

Criticism of capital punishment on moral or effective grounds is irrelevant to Afzal’s role in the attack. Advani’s eagerness or Kashmiri backlash is irrelevant to Afzal’s role in the attack. It’s not just the Kashmiris. Even I don’t trust the courts or police. But that is the only system we have for the time being and everyone else is subject to its casino style justice. Afzal was not unfairly singled out.

Even though I agree that Kashmir is “occupied terrority,” that is in no way relevant to Afzal’s role in the attack. Another criticism is that each case is judged on its own merit and is unaffected by other cases. That the alleged co-conspirators’ cases imploded means nothing to Afzal’s case. Whether Afzal is a Dragon or just a Dragon’s dropping, if he legally aided and abetted the attack on the parliament he bears criminal liability. He should have thought about Ghalib, “his angelic looking little son” before participating in a chain of events. Besides, there were several dead guys on the parliament grounds whose offspring are equally angelic and orphaned.

What the newspapers print in their headlines doesn’t affect the facts of Afzal’s participation in the attack.

Whether the attempt on Geelani’s life was by miffed cops, private vigilantees or co-conspirators trying to sever link to the attack is pure speculation and irrelevant to Afzal’s role in the attack.

Geelani’s opinion of Afzal’s fate has no more weight than any other citizen’s opinion. That Afzal didn’t have “top lawyers” is irrelevant since there is no constitutional right to “top lawyers.” ACP Rajbir Singh’s lack of professionalism and obvious amateurism is irrelevant to Afzal’s role in the attack.

That Roy gives different probative value to the evidence than what the courts did is interesting but irrelevant to Afzal’s role in the attack.

Want any more substantive criticism?
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
28
Well, Chandra's summed up in one neat post what I was thinking of having to articulate. Agree absolutely, as also on the total elision of Pandits and the equivocation on SC's verdict.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
27
Adi,

I did not say anything on the point of whether Afzal holds any secrets or not. But the case for police culpability and media incredulity stands on its own, and is stressed also in the article by NIRMALANGSHU MUKHERJI.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
26
I stopped reading after the 1st 2 lines " We know this much: On December 13, 2001, the Indian Parliament was in its winter session. (The NDA government was under attack for yet another corruption scandal.) "

-- How is what was under discussion in Parliament , relevent to the attack ? Arundhati Roy is a most callous, thuggish , deceitful commentator I have seen.

Afzal and his wife - in their own statements - prove their complicity.
Afzal says - he helped without knowing.
His wife says - Afzals only sin was he was aware of the attack/plot.

Now both of those statements cannot be true at the same time. However - I have my doubts. Who damages the country more ? Afzal or his shameless, lie-full peddlers ?
Raj
dallas, United States
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
25
Thanks, Ajit. I think it is a pity that Outlook wasted so much space on this, and so little on Mohammed Yunus and Grameen Bank. That Nobel Prize is the biggest political statement of all time from the Nobel Foundation -- it rewards a Muslim, but a Muslim who has done *constructive* work that has helped people across the board.

Rootless professional rebels like Roy should learn from Yunus. What's that these people have done that gives them the right to yak? Which is actually the question people pose at Paris Hilton -- why are you famous? Writing a chocolaty memoir doesn't count, it doesn't earn you the right to lecture on human rights. Do something for actual humans, and then we'll see.
chandra
Portland, USA
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
24
now there is a pimp for the hooker with a booker - samit.
chester pester
timbaktoo, timbaktoo
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
23
Get well soon A.Roy. Peace.
srihari rajasekhar
johnson city, USA
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
22
was Roy sitting on potty while producing this work of genius?

if the sanghis are one end of spectrum, making a disgusting tamasha of another human's death(or shoudl it be life), creatures like roy are the opposite end, making a mockery of the notion of nationhood, with their hypocirtical "holier than thou" attitude.

earlier i felt spare the poor guy just to show the middle finger to sanghis, but now i feel hang the still poor guy just to shove a lit candle up roy's posterior.
i only end up feeling sorry for afzal, not for his conviction, but the way he is being used as a shuttle cock by hte far right and the far left.

sick..
bhushan
richmond, United States
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
21
correction..

earlier i felt spare for the poor guy

shold be

earlier i felt sorry for the poor guy.
bhushan
richmond, United States
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
20
Oh dear, oh dear. looks like the booker prize has gone to some one's head doesn't it, Roy darlin. Now you are an expert on Indian deviousness, Indian conspiracy attacks, Indian evil, Indian tricks, Hindu fundamentalists, Hindu militants, Hindu scum, Hindu con artists, Indian crimes, Indian suppression, Indian oppression, Hindu bastards, Medival Hindu Idol worshippers, Hindu cheats, Indian warmongers, Indian injustice, Hindu murderers, Hindu imperialists, Hindu prosletysers, Hindu nuclear testing lowlife scum, Indian state suppresion, .....Hindu narmada dam building scum, Violent Indian scum bags... and the list goes on. You really have become an expert in so many things. You should be really proud.
Raj Shah
New Jersey, USA
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
19
For all we know ,this particular case may well be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

The game , set and match however belong to our former colonial masters . In what is arguably the deadliest , most fiendish Parthian shot in History , they 've managed to set both sides at each other's throats for all time to come-thereby ensuring that their Military -Industrial complex continues its remorseless growth - at its usual blistering pace.
Ranjith Thomas
Calcutta, India
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
18
Thank you for your amazing work here and elsewhere. I have nothing significant to say or add, just heartfelt gratitude...
Shashi Thandra
Detroit, United States
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
17
I think Arundhati Roy needs a big vacation in some mental asylum because her head must be spinning so fast after this piece of junk, that she would see conspiracies all around her. I don't know what has she done other than mudslinging on others and shedding crocodile tears and teaching, preaching everybody on everything. How dare she write like this, demeaning the Indian Government, the investigating agencies and even the Judiciary. I think she is very close to establish a benchmark of dimwittedness and let me tell you Outlook is not very far behind.
anup
Hartford, USA
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
16

Even if an iota of truth exists in this story. The case needs to be reinvestigated by the paliamentry enquiry. Justice is the hallmark of our nation and therefore it needs to be maintened at all cost irrespective of the magnitude of the crime.
Ali Naqi Desnavi
Bhopal, India
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
15
I think Roy needs to correct her statement that Afzal is a hero in Kashmir and a villain in the rest of India. It should be India is a villain in Kashmir blah de blah.
She is verbose in pointing at the so called fallacies in the Indian investigating agencies and its judiciary. I don't see Arundhathi explain the innocence of Afzal in a convincing manner.
What kind of a write up is this that "Afzal crossed the border and returned disillusioned", For god's sake come out of the hangover of writing about a kinky relationship in kerala. There are numerous anomalies in your argument in defending Afzal.
I recall Mr. Jethmalani saying that it is clever law that wins. It seems Arundhati is trying to be clever in representing Afzal.
Wunder
dubai, United Arab Emirates
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
14
Cool it Chauhan!!! just give a thought on what Joseph is saying.
Joseph I agree with you on the inherent caste division in Hinduism. As a practicing Hindu personally I try to convince people to get of these differences.
I find it difficult to convince students because of the caste based reservations.
Once a person understands the essence of Hinduism I bet no one will leave it for material gains.
Wunder
dubai, United Arab Emirates
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
13
Wunder, where is your post? Did you say something in my favour to upset so many? There are some good Indians?
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
12
Which is more retarding being a Pakistan or a Sudra?
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
11
Who is this Hugh, who I should accept? Is Dhimmi Watch, something to be proud of?
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
10
Why place a 2001 RAND Report in 2006? Is not the Indian Prime Minister visiting to talk?
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
9
And another 2001 Time Report? Does one need to go back or forward?
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
8
Ms. Roy's story is an emotional outburst and is a selfish one as it explores her self conscience. It is not the public view or the Legal view. Every conutry has right to defend itself and take actions against those who threaten its existence or try to destabilize her. Freedom of expression in a democracy is its biggest strength as well as its biggest weakness. In my personal opinion we should close this mega serial of innocent being victimized, which is currently being played in National media ASAP.
A verdict has been delivered and a petition is pending in front of president. Let the event take ts own course, don't help Afzal become a living martyr, infact he has already started keeping an appearance that helps him become one. Media and eminent writers like Ms. Roy should come out of fictional stories and focus on real hard facts that our country faces today- Help India become more literate, more financially stable, attack poverty and we will all become more righteous in our actions and will ensure justice prevails. Focus on strategic issues please- We need a God of large issues in India.
Pankaj Dubey
Indore, MP
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
7
"........Ms. Roy's story is an emotional outburst and is a selfish one........"

Emotional outbursts are not supported by arguments.
Roy has put forward many hard facts - especially wrt Delhi Rpofessor geelani

What haev you to say regarding those facts ??
Delhi police had accused him of being th emastermind- why was then geelani acquitted by the court ??
#####:::::-NNNNN-:::::#####
Ranchi, India
Oct 21, 2006 12:00 AM
6
Joseph,

"If you visit Goa and dine with the Goan's in Karachi, you will still find that many Goan Christians still observe with great pride that they were Brahmin converts while the bulk of them were from the lower castes."

The Goan Christian call themselves as Gaur-Saraswat-Brahmin(GSB) christians. They would either marry in their own GSB-C community or GSB Hindu community and vice versa.
Aziz
Pune, India
Oct 20, 2006 12:00 AM
5
I read just the last page to see where she is going and was not surprised.

"If Afzal is hanged, we'll never know the answer to the real question: Who attacked the Indian Parliament? Was it the Lashkar-e-Toiba? The Jaish-e-Mohammed? Or does the answer lie somewhere deep in the secret heart of this country that we all live in and love and hate in our own beautiful, intricate, various, and thorny ways?"

So the corollory is Afsal is NOT hanged, we WILL know the answer to the real question:Who attacked Indian parliament?. But if I am right, Afsal has not been hanged yet. Do we know the answer to the real question? Why should one believe that we will know the answer to the real question at a future date(when he is not hanged)? Any reasons why that would happen?

And then the nice conspiracy theory kicks in. Just as in US there are people claiming Bush ordered the 911 attacks, she is subtly hinting at the possibility of an inside job. Probably she refers to some home grown terrorists but I doubt it. It is a more subtle version of Arjun Singh. Singh claimed the bombay blasts were the handiwork of the parivar.

It is only a short time before we start hearing stories about how the parivar wanted to destroy Pak(throw the military in as well) and so they planned this attack which then could be used as a pretext to attack Pak. But only the Americans stepped in and prevented the war and spoiled the grand plans of the Sangh.

Just as Bush ordered 911 to use it as a pretext to start the war against Iraq. That Bush knew it was coming.

"To hang Mohammed Afzal without knowing what really happened is a misdeed that will not easily be forgotten. Or forgiven. Nor should it be."

So can we hang him if we knew what really happened? But the key word is "really". Nothing would qualify as "really". No matter what the evidence is, these guys will be saying "There are some details which have not come out in the open". Nice trick.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 20, 2006 12:00 AM
4
Mr. Ganesan, not a trick. A monumental blunder by the confession extracting police. That is why I wish to see Police Commissioner A. N. Roy posted in the Andaman Islands.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 20, 2006 12:00 AM
3
What is most frightening in this story is the extent of police culpability, and the degree of press credulity.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 20, 2006 12:00 AM
2
Mr. Vishwas, you save Mr. Afzal and I will save Mr. Tahir. For the good of both the countries and the World, both are likely to be saved by others. Take Care.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 20, 2006 12:00 AM
1
If Afzal being alive is the key to know the 'real truth', is he the one who is hiding something?
Sriram
Chennai, India
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