Appraisal
Fusing Phule And Ambedkar
Kanshi Ram redefined and expanded the scope of parliamentary democracy in India by successfully fusing Phule's advocacy of the bahujan with the Ambedkarite idea of negotiating space for a communal minority in a political majority.
In 1971, when Kanshi Ram was an employee in the munitions factory of the DRDO in Pune, he picked a quarrel with a senior officer, and allegedly struck him, over the non-appointment of a young, qualified Dalit woman. This led to his eventual quitting the government job. There is this great Indian myth that once the Dalits or other backward classes enter the realm of modernity and become a part of the apparently seamless middle class, caste would disappear, caste would wither away. Urban Indians are not casteist, it is believed, except in matrimonial columns. By 1965, Kanshi Ram and his fellow Dalit and backward class employees realized that was hardly the case. Dalit employees were routinely humiliated on an everyday basis at their workplace. And Kanshi Ram deeply resented that. If this were the fate of an educated, employed Dalit, what would her fate be in the feudal-rural scenario? Even in his early 30s, as an organiser, he nurtured his support base among the Dalit and Backward Caste government employees; the very first organization he established with his colleagues in 1971 was the Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribes, Other Backward Classes and Minorities Employees Welfare Association in Pune. The objective: to counter the harassment the shoshit (oppressed) employees faced.

In 1996, in New Delhi, Kanshi Ram slapped a TV journalist and BSP workers assaulted other members of the media. What the provocation was we shall not know, for there was no one to report that, as Kenneth J. Cooper, then the Washington Times correspondent in New Delhi, discovered. He was shocked by the manner in which the Indian media had reported the happenings at Kanshi Ram's residence. Cooper, a witness, wondered: Is there no one to report the Dalit side of the story? He then asked senior journalist B.N. Uniyal, among others, if there were no Dalits in the capital's media. Cooper went on to write an article in Washington Times about the absence of Dalits in the Indian print media. Uniyal made a search for Dalit journalists and even published an article about his vain search in The Pioneer. Not much has changed in the last ten years, as a survey by Centre for the Study of Developing Societies in May 2006 indicated.

Be it in 1971 when he struck a higher official or in 1996 when he slapped an overbearing journalist, Kanshi Ram was animated by the same spirit to defend the self-respect and dignity of Dalits . In 1973, he established the All India Backward and Minority Employees Federation (BAMCEF), and in 1981 formed the came DS4 (the Dalit Shoshit Samaj Sangharsh Samiti), a precursor to the Bahujan Samaj Party founded on Ambedkar's birthday, April 14, 1984.

Since 1919 when he made his first political intervention on behalf of the Depressed Classes in the Southborough Commission till his death in 1956, B.R. Ambedkar tended to articulate the Dalit issue as essentially one of a 'minority' problem. In positing Dalits as India's biggest minority group that needed political and societal safeguards, Ambedkar was reacting to the Muslim self-perception in colonial India. The British adjudication and manipulation of the politics of numbers, using Census figures, were crucial for these early debates on the scope of democratic representation in India.

Kanshi Ram, unarguably the biggest leader to emerge from among Dalits in the post-Ambedkar period, and someone who succeeded in the realm of parliamentary democracy in which Ambedkar repeatedly failed, drew heavily from Ambedkar's political resources. However, he decided to deploy a different strategy at the ground level. Surely, the consolidation of Uttar Pradesh's 22 percent or Punjab's 28 percent Dalit populations alone would not ensure victories in elections; but such a consolidation would force the tormentors and opponents of Dalits to come to the bargaining table.

Kanshi Ram realized that if the Dalits had to wrest their share in political power on their own terms, they needed allies. In this sense, he was more a follower of Jotiba Phule (1827–1890). At the heart of Kanshi Ram's politics was the concept of the 'bahujan'—the oppressed majority, a quintessential Phule formulation that believed in the organic unity of the Sudras (BCs and BCS) and Atisudras (Dalits and Adivasis); (something with which Ambedkar differed since he saw the Sudras as essentially erstwhile khsatriyas and the untouchables as fallen Buddhists). Following Phule, Kanshi Ram believed that the Sudras and Atisudras needed to join hands with Muslims and other minorities to combat the Brahmin-Baniya-Rajput combine. The logic that drove this postulation was that if democracy was the rule of the majoritarian voice, then why was it that in Indian democracy only the voice of the dwija castes was heard? In the early phase of his political career, Kanshi Ram believed that the Dalits and their immediate tormentors in the rural landscape—OBCs—could join hands. The mastermind of coalition politics in Uttar Pradesh sought to first forge an alliance at the societal level before seeking to fortify it at the political level. This was not easy, as we shall see.

The birth of the BSP in 1984 did not happen in the most conducive circumstances. Rajiv Gandhi swept to power on a sympathy wave. The BJP's hindutva agenda was looming large and Rajiv played along, allowing the shilanyas and the telecast of Ramanand Sagar's Ramayana. Not the best of times for a man without any previous political foothold in Uttar Pradesh—born on March 15, 1934 is a Raidasi Sikh family in Khawaspur village, Ropar district, Punjab and bred on Phule and Ambedkar's ideas in Pune—to pose a challenge to both the Congress and BJP. The challenge could bear fruition only when the OBCs and Dalits joined forces, Kanshi Ram reckoned. One of the early DS-4 slogans was 'Brahmin, Bania, Thakur Chor, Baki Sab Hum DS-Four' (meaning, Brahmins Banias Thakurs are crooks, the DS-4 are their victims). In the 1993 UP assembly elections 'Tilak, Taraju, Talwar. Maaro Unko Joote Char' was on every BSP worker's lip. This slogan to give the boot to the oppressors was not just imbued with anti-caste sentiments but anti-hindutva as well; the tilak invoking the Brahmins, the taraju the Baniya and the talwar the militant Kshatriya, all in the service of hindutva. This was essentially an inversion of anti-Dalit traditional rhymes that equated chamars with chors (thieves).

An alliance with Mulayam Singh Yadav's Samajawadi Party followed. This remained an uneasy alliance at the core because the OBC mindset was such that it would never accept a Dalit as leader. Sharing power with OBCs proved a tough task. Be it a Brahmin like Lalji Tandon, or OBCs like Mulayam Yadav or Kalyan Singh, they resented the idea of being headed by a Dalit . (Even an MBC of Nishad caste like Phoolan Devi preferred to join the Samajwadi Party, a reflection on how the Kanshi Ram-Mayawati leadership could not be stomached by most non-Dalits .) Moreover, in rural UP, the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes Prevention of Atrocities Act of 1989 (PoA Act) assumed meaning whenever the Mayawati-led BSP was in power. While the media preferred to highlight only her excesses with Ambedkar statues and parks, under her regime the PoA Act came to be termed the Dalit Act and UP became the only state where it was not possible to casually insult a Dalit and get away with it. To refer to a Dalit with contempt—which caste Hindus had done as matter of convention and traditional right—became a crime that could result in a FIR and booking under Section 3 (I) X of the PoA Act. Police officers were given instructions to fearlessly implement the Act, both unprecedented and never emulated in any other state under any other regime. The implementation of the Act went a long way in recognising and restoring a sense of self and dignity among the Dalits of UP. This was seen by the caste Hindu society and the media—inured by routine, everyday humiliation of Dalits —as the registering of false cases in the name of the Dalit Act. (According to a study, the UP Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes Commission says 80-85 per cent of the cases brought before it are genuine.) In these cases, the OBCs were named as the primary tormentors of Dalits . The Dalit -OBC political alliance in Lucknow could not be translated into a Sudra-Atisudra social harmony. The slew of FIRs, with OBCs shown as aggressors, strained the BSP-SP alliance. This was a fundamental societal contradiction that Kanshi Ram could not resolve. The echoes of the free and fair use of the PoA Act could be heard in faraway Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh where the BC and OBCs groups demanded the repeal of the Act.

It is an irony of our times that in her last term as CM, Mayawati sought to dilute this very Act in order to please her ally, now the Brahmin/Thakur/OBC-filled BJP. In July 2002, the Mayawati government issued a directive signed by chief secretary D.S. Bagga and special secretary Anil Kumar with respect to the PoA Act which instructed the entire administrative machinery, to prevent 'misuse' of the Act and asked them to direct the state's penal and executive bodies to be 'extra careful' about registering the cases under the Act.

How and why did Kanshi Ram ally alternately with BJP and SP and even the Congress—in other words, with BCs and OBCs, as well the Brahmin-Baniya-Thakurs? Here, we need to invoke Ambedkar on the place of minorities in the midst of communal and political majorities. He argues in his neglected, late work Thoughts on Linguistic States:

People who rely upon majority rule forget the fact that majorities are of two sorts: (1) Communal majority and (2) Political majority. A political majority is changeable in its class composition. A political majority grows. A communal majority is born. The admission to a political majority is open. The door to a communal majority is closed. The politics of a political majority are free to all to make and unmake. The politics of a communal majority are made by its own members born in it. How can a communal majority run away with the title deeds given to a political majority to rule? … This tyranny of the communal majority is not an idle dream. It is an experience of many minorities.

Kanshi Ram understood that what was being played out in Indian democracy was the rule of communal majority in the name of the rule of the political majority. For a communal minority like Dalits , the only way to democracy was by kneading its way into the forces that constituted political majority in electoral politics. Dalits could not join the communal majority constituted by Baniyas, Thakurs and Brahmins, for, as Ambedkar says, the door to communal majority is closed. But they sure could join the political majority, since the class and caste composition of the political majority could change. This was manageable through alliances. Under Kanshi Ram's stewardship, the BSP practically demonstrated what Ambedkar had theoretically formulated. In this sense, Kanshi Ram redefined and expanded the scope of parliamentary democracy in India.

If Kanshi Ram did not ally with one force, it was with the Left. The Left of course had hardly a presence in Uttar Pradesh. At the national level the CPI and CPI(M) preferred to do business with the 'secular' Mulayam, Karunanidhi or even Jayalalitha, but refused to engage with the BSP.

Kanshi Ram painfully realised that Phule's bahujan concept would not work under Dalit leadership. Kanshi Ram therefore successfully wedded Phule's advocacy of the bahujan with the Ambedkarite idea of negotiating space for a communal minority in a political majority. With this premise, within a decade he managed to build a national party that became the sole challenge to the supremacy of the Congress and the BJP in the Hindi heartland.

 
Daily Mail
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Oct 20, 2006 12:00 AM
30
So (this is for S. Anand) - if we leave neo-liberalism untouched and un-critiqued and work exclusively for affirmative action and inclusion of Dalits in parliamentary politics, it still won't result in a structural change. Somebody will still be getting raped, paying back generations of "debt" and being a bonded labourer. It may no longer be a specialized Dalit job, however, which apart from enhancing diversity at the very lowest levels of society, will also demonstrate that bonded labour is unpleasant no matter who's doing it to whom.

To completely eradicate such dreadful institutions will at some point, require butting heads with the World Bank/IMF/international capitalist institutions. This may hapen 75-80 years down the line, after diversifying the composition of the bonded labour force, or it may happen sooner. For it to happen sooner,various parties with similar grievances, but different explanations of what causes them, may have to arrive at some common ground for practice, instead of spending all their time writing polemical articles against the "class only" vs the "caste only" view of things. Try dialogue instead of polemics especially where the same constituency is the subject of debate.

It will be interesting to watch.

Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 20, 2006 12:00 AM
29
Oh, from
http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/i/m.htm


Imperialism: "...the concentration of capital has grown to a point where finance capital becomes dominant over industrial capital...the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance.....although commodity production still "reigns" and continues to be regarded as the basis of economic life, it has in reality been undermined and the bulk of the profits go to the "geniuses" of financial manipulation. ..."

Its all happening today but those words were written a century ago.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 20, 2006 12:00 AM
28
Chester Chaddi and Anil consider national units as bounded and timeless, and probably take the prices of things to be their value. First of all, this is, since the 80s, a wholly connected world, with various capitalist institutions regulating trade and finance on a global scale. Only a fool would say that there is something obvious or natural about the terms of this regulation (imposition might be a better word). It is designed to enhance the concentration of capital by ever-greater extraction of surplus value on a global scale, because this is, even by the neo-liberal definition, the source of profit, which is the source of capital.

Secondly - what is the source of value? Even taking Adam Smith, who the Chester Chaddis of the world think is the recipient of a divine revelation - the connection between the Canadian wealty and the Andhra poor in a globalised world, is clear. Adam Smith originated the labour theory of value, where the final source of value is labour. Marx developed this idea, and added nature to labour as a source of value. So, if the source of capital is profit and the source of profit is surplus value and the source of surplus value is labour (and nature), then in a world of globalised trade and finance, both agricultural labour in say Andhra and the oil in Iran are sources of global capital. Access to both is regulated by national and international institutions, of which national institutions have been massively weakened in the neo-liberal era. So, there's little national sovereignty left, and therefore little national control over the terms of trade and finance. Therefore, blaming lazy Indians, Jews, Brahmins and corruption is pointless, because lazy Indians, Jews, Brahmins and corruption do not control this scenario, at least not in those identities.

To the extent that they speak the universal language of capitalist institutions and participate in them lazy Indians, Jews, Brahmins and corrupt people have some say in these institutions. They may exclude Dalits from this language and these institutions. Dalits could agitate for such inclusion - why not. But once included, they won't be able to remain Dalit, they will just become capitalist, and in turn, participate in the extraction of surplus value from the body and land of people in Andhra, Bangladesh and Nigeria.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 20, 2006 12:00 AM
27
I meant "formulation", not "forumation".

Please ignore all typos - I am speed-typing.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 20, 2006 12:00 AM
26
Blah blah blah. Nandu, given the indications of opium and crack addiction you have shown thus far, I will benevolently ignore your inability to differentiate between what is sarcastic, sardonic, humorous and darkly humorous. One who cannot differentiate fact from myth and fantasy should not be expected to sense gradations in tone.

Chester Chaddi, you merely repeat discredited mantras. Did you see the article on hunger in India? How come 2 decades of neo-liberal policies have worsened hunger??

Anil Narlikar, more epileptic squawks from you, as well as blatant lies and contradictions. Please go to
http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/c/a.htm


for a definition of the system called "capitalism".

It is a more well-thought-out, well-substantiated explanation for many global problemsthan "Jews", "laziness", "population", "corruption" etc - all of were actually considered by Marx, and shown to be inadequate.

So, rather than being of the same character as explanations like "Satan", "lazy people" and "Jews", it is simultaneously a refutation of all the reasons you and Chester Chaddi put forward, and the forumation of a far more credible explanation.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 18, 2006 12:00 AM
25
and talking about our indian subsidized education, it is yet another failure of socialist ideals. why cry foul when the govt subsidizes the education? why subsidize higher education in the first place? give benefits to those who need it. but why give a blanket subsidy and then cry foul.

are we to blame for wanting a better life and heading west?

even russia and china have done a rethinking of their marxist ideals.. if you insist that marxism and communism are different, jsut cite some examples where marxism has not degenerated into stalinism or maoism.
chester pester
timbaktoo, timbaktoo
Oct 18, 2006 12:00 AM
24
sundari,

suit urself with your delusional belief "i know it all" - omniscience. i dont care.
as long as you keep harping on the same long-dead marxist tune, you dont stand a chance of being competetive and rising above the pathetic levels you keep cribbing about.
besides marx, you probably need to read adam smith.

did it ever occur to you that surplus labor is direct consequence of over population? let the indians stop breeding like rabbits. then "surplus labor" wont be a problem.

the capitalist scheme of things is not as evil as you would like others to believe. in the capitalist capital of the world, there are less class differences than the socialist capitals of yesteryears.
what you dont seem to understand is, marxist ideal are possibly only in an ideal work not in real world inhabited by humans. if i earn 100 units and you insist on taking 90 and redistributing, then i too would wait for doles rather than earn 100.
chester pester
timbaktoo, timbaktoo
Oct 18, 2006 12:00 AM
23
Sundari:

You sound like a crazed polpotting chaddi.

I mentioned Karl Marx because I wanted to dissociate his sophisticated and interesting ides -often wrong, but still instructive - from you crude illiterate polpotting rant.

Like a Brahmin fossil of the old type, when asked to explain concretely what you mean - why Canadians are to blame for the starvation of Andhra peasants - you refer to an unexplained, mystical entity: "The System". Just as a Muslim chaddi will say: "The Jewish Conspiracy", or "Satan".

Just forget mysticism for a while - though that is asking a lot of a chaddi like you - and just tell us: Exactly how does the propsperity of Canadians depend on "maximum extraction" from Andhras?!!

Your reference to labour and surplus value would make a donkey laugh. What labour can an Andhra give a Canadian who is hardly even buying Indian goods? Who if he does buy them (India has only a weak international trade) pays good money for it...So that countries like South Korean and China which have exported cheap goods develop very powerful manufacturing sectors?

Which country does well today by isolating itself from the world market? Did not Ricardo expond the theory of comparative advantage?

Go back to your Khmer Rouge hideout and stop boring intelligent people. You are a stuttering clown.

You are out of your mind, if you ever had one.
Anil Narlikar
Pune, India
Oct 17, 2006 12:00 AM
22
More from the article at
http://www.zmag.org/con...ctionID=10&ItemID=11053


"It has become part of the conventional wisdom that the primary conflict in the world is between the rich North and the poor South. The North and the South, however, have classes with opposing interests that have established alliances at the international level."

I pointed that out earlier - that even Canada and the US are ***not*** "classless" societies.

This is also why racist Indians who go to these countries and make a lot of money (based on the subsidized education they have received in India - at the expense of say, universal literacy and rural infrastructure development) - are often found calling African-Americans "nigger" and saying "those lazy bastards! - they don't work hard". What we are seeing is an alliance between the dominant classes of various geographical regions against the poor of various gegraphical regions.

(Indians abroad are notorious for being the worst racists in this regard.)
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 17, 2006 12:00 AM
21
Anil and Chester Chaddi. Your posts are full of hot air. They also reveal poor reading comprehension. On just a few points:

>>> stop blaming the rest of the world for ur plight.

I am not blaming "the rest of the world", if you notice. It is a system I implicated - a system in which people of all hues, religions and nations participate. Implicating this system would also mean implicating people like yourself -Indian, Chaddi, maybe even from Andhra, who perpetuate it.

>>>canada doesnt give a buck about what goes on in andhra. their plight is the direct consequence of the indian system.

Canadians may not be thinking about Andhra when they walk around, but the system they are in produces the inequalities whereby high prosperity in some parts and among some people is, in fact, dependent on maximum extraction somewhere else. It called the theory of surplus value, the source of which is labour. Refresh yourself of Ricardo, and then, read Marx on Ricardo. Also understand that no nation is an island, especially today. Neoliberalism depends on the weakening of national sovereignties. Again this means, it is a system we are implicating, not something crude like "Thecanadiansdon'tliketheIndians".

May be difficult for you to grasp such nuances, but try it.

>>>If peasants in India cannot get a living that is due to low productivity which comes from lack of literacy, good marketing systems and lack of machinery.

Only apparently. The global system of capitalism means that developing infrastructure will never be a priority in some parts of the world. In the crudest terms - watch how people like you would react to even the most meek welfare-state measure for universal literacy. Not just people like you, but World Bank "loans" too depend on a gutting of social services of the kind that would improve literacy for instance. The priority will be to subsidize corporations instead, based on some "trickle down theory" which we have never seen work till today.

Also, read the link on Bangladesh to show how "machinery" (I assume you mean technology) in and of itself does not alleviate the abject conditions many people live under.

>>>I speak as one who has a good deal of knowledge of karl Marx's ideas.

You don't seem to. Equating Karl Marx's ideas with Stalinism and Pol Potism is usually a beginner's mistake. People who read more and go deeper do not make this error.

>>>Just a cheap and lazy theory of an "enemy".

A system, dear, a system that dehumanizes and results on massive contradictions and misery.

I know you're used to thinking in terms of an enemy, but it is a system we're speaking of, a system that all participate in, and all suffer from.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 17, 2006 12:00 AM
20
Sorry, the first line in my previous post is supposed to be "I do not think there is any thing implicit in a capitalist system that ensures equal opportunity"
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Oct 17, 2006 12:00 AM
19
Chester Pester,

>> capitalist system ensures equal opportunity, which sociallist tries to ensure equal success

I do not think there is nothing implicit in a capitalist system that ensures equal opportunity. A capitalist system and a caste system can co-exist for example. Ensuring equal opportunity to all, sometimes needs affirmative action. Some call it socialism, some others call it humanism.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Oct 17, 2006 12:00 AM
18
anil,

u dont have to take sundari seriously.

living fossils from the marxist age.

any and every problem is the result of capitalism, the invisible enemy.

sundari says
----
“prosperity somewhere depends on squeezing as much labour out of an agricultural worker in Andhra as is possible.”
-------
only in ur head full of crap. canada doesnt give a buck about what goes on in andhra. their plight is the direct consequence of the indian system. stop blaming the rest of the world for ur plight.

classless society is a myth. it is absolutely impractical. each individual has different capabilities. (yes. no one is equal in terms of what they can accomplish)
any system which runs on the principle of "from one based ability to another based on need" is doomed to fail. it kills the concept of enterprise and productivity.

capitalist system ensures equal opportunity, which sociallist tries to ensure equal success.
chester pester
timbaktoo, timbaktoo
Oct 17, 2006 12:00 AM
17
Sundari:

I speak as one who has a good deal of knowledge of karl Marx's ideas. If anyone is a superstitious priest it is you, with your crude Stalinoid dogmas that you keep repeating like a dusty broken record long after the Berlin Wall has fallen, China and Vietnam have embraced capitalism and begun to prosper, and Cuba is a pathetic run-down backwater waiting for its aged and windy dictator to die. Stalinoid crazies like you keep repeating your ludicrously antiquated slogans like a lot of brainless sheep, like some really fossilised Brahmin fanatics repeating the Laws of Manu. Wake up !! Shake off the beggarly dust of crude paranoid Polpotism !

In what way do the Canadians, living on the produce of their own supra-abundant land, imprting manufactres from the US, Japan, Singapore, South Korean and China, agricultural produce from the US and sometimes from Latin America - in what way do they starve the citizens of Andhra? If peasants in India cannot get a living that is due to low productivity which comes from lack of literacy, good marketing systems and lack of machinery. All thse countries like Soputh Korea, taiwan and China are trying hard to rectify. Just because Indians are too lazy to make these sensible changes, don't blame Canadians.

You guys are really screwed up. Not a single constructive thought or effort to utilise all the amazing things the world today offers. Just a cheap and lazy theory of an "enemy".
Anil Narlikar
Pune, India
Oct 17, 2006 12:00 AM
16
Sundari,because GDP is too narrow a measure, you have gini Index, Hunger Index, etc. India's skewness is visible beyween Sehar International Airoport and Mahim plus Dharavi as compared with Narriman Point and the area around the Cricket Club of India. You do not have to go to India, or any where else for that matter to know, Google Earth takes you there.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 17, 2006 12:00 AM
15
Sundari, I did not say that poverty in Bangladesh was the thrust of what you had posted. All I tried to do was to correct a mis-statement.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 17, 2006 12:00 AM
14
Oh and the article does talk about how despite GDP and PPP, more people can be living in abject conditions in one place than the other based on distrubution of resources.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 17, 2006 12:00 AM
13
Joseph, it was the New York Times. The url to the article is in one of my messages below.

In any case, the place of Bangladesh in the poverty race was not the primary aim of my post!!
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 17, 2006 12:00 AM
12
Sundari, even in 1992, Bangladesh was not the World's poorest country. Please post their URL on these pages, I will send them a correction.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 17, 2006 12:00 AM
11
Joseph, those weren't my words, they were pasted from a link earlier provided, which in turn quoted a 1992 article, at which time Bangladesh was the poorest country.

In any case, the quite I posted was to make the point that (a) the *distribution* of resources (like land) is a key factor that is not to be dismissed, and no amount of religious conversion or mere voting without structural change, will help that. (b) that the distribution of recources in Bangldesh can have something to do with a global system of capitalism.

It was to address the overall question of marxist analytics and for Anil Narlikar and Kumar. Bangladesh was just an example because it was in that article.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 17, 2006 12:00 AM
10
Sundari, your's is a long posting. It will take me some to read and assimilate. I have just one small immediate correction. Bangladesh is not the World's poorest country. It GDP per Capita is US$ 440 per year. This World of ours has many country with GDP per Capita of half that amount or less. In PPP terms it is some where in the middle.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Oct 17, 2006 12:00 AM
9
Quoting from one of those links there - and do note its relevance to the article on the Grameen bank as well:
"The New York Times, on September 12, 1992 (when the population explosion was held to be the cause of world poverty), published a surprisingly candid assessment of the situation in Bangladesh, the poorest country in the world. In this extensive article, Ann Crittenden touched directly on the root of the problem: the patterns of ownership of the production asset--the land:

The root of the persistent malnutrition in the midst of relative plenty is the unequal distribution of land in Bangladesh. Few people are rich here by Western standards, but severe inequalities do exist and they are reflected in highly skewed land ownership. The wealthiest 16% of the rural population controls two thirds of the land and almost 60% of the population holds less than one acre of property.

Crittenden is not hopeful that the solution is technological. Quite to the contrary, technology can make things even worse:

The new agricultural technologies being introduced have tended to favor large farmers, putting them in a better position to buy out their less fortunate neighbors.

Why does this situation persist? The answer is clear.

Nevertheless, with the government dominated by landowners--about 75% of the members of the Parliament hold land--no one foresees any official support for fundamental changes in the system.

Let me add that in the U.S. State Department's classification of political regimes, Bangladesh is placed in the democratic column. Meanwhile, hunger and underweight are the primary cause of child mortality in Bangladesh. The hungry face of a child in Bangladesh has become the most common poster used by many charitable organizations to shame people in developed countries into sending money and food aid to Bangladesh. With what results?

Food aid officials in Bangladesh privately concede that only a fraction of the millions of tons of food aid sent to Bangladesh has reached the poor and hungry in the villages. The food is given to the Government, which in turn sells it at subsidized prices to the military, the police, and the middle class inhabitants of the cities.

The class structure of Bangladesh and the property relations that determine it are the causes of the enormous poverty. As Ann Crittenden concludes:

Bangladesh has enough land to provide an adequate diet for every man, woman and child in the country. The agricultural potential of this lush green land is such that even the inevitable population growth of the next 20 years could be fed easily by the resources of Bangladesh alone.

Most recently, Bangladesh has been much in the news as having undergone high economic growth due primarily to its exports in the world market. But that growth has been limited to a small, export-oriented sector of the economy and has left untouched the majority of the population. Malnutrition and hunger, meanwhile, have increased."

That applies to India as well...puts the relevance of caste in perspective doesn't it?? Even if all of India converts to some other religion, it could just end up resembling Bangladesh, or Guatemala.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 17, 2006 12:00 AM
8
Nandu

"golwilkar guruji ( a brahmin, founder of RSS )convinced dr "

It is surprising for some one who claims to have been associated with RSS for 30 years, not to know to the name of Guru Gowalkar.
deejay
Cal, India
Oct 16, 2006 12:00 AM
7
>>>At least in the Western countries since the Nineteenth Century there have been independent trade unions to fight for workers' rights.

Good. Communist ideas had a lot to do with the institutionalization of this.


>>>There have been free elections, which have enabled incredible improvements to be made in working class life.

Elections alone don’t do it, as evidenced by the fact that India has a higher voter turnout rate than Canada and the US. Resources and their distribution and deployment have something to do it.

>>>> Canada is little short of paradise. What more do you want?

Remember what I said earlier: “prosperity somewhere depends on squeezing as much labour out of an agricultural worker in Andhra as is possible.”

Canada is part of a global system called “capitalism” where prosperity in some places depends on extreme extraction in other places. Just because Canada itself looks “classless” to you, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t participate in this system. The “classlessness” of advanced capitalist societies (itself a myth as the poor in those countries would like one to know) is a bribe to the population to permit the global continuation of a capitalist system.

>>>In comparison, in so called "Communist" countries, workers were treated with mericiless contempt, denied free trade unions and sentenced to death for expressing their free opinions.

You participate in the myth-making processes of the capitalist world. While some as you say so-called communist countries had authoritarian features, many didn’t and don’t. In Any case, analyzing the problem in Marxist terms doesn’t mean one is adopting any particular country as a “model”. One is simply analyzing the problem in the way that makes the most sense in terms of empirical reality. Solutions evolve according to particular situations – there is not one-size-fits-all.

In any case, I think people in AP, Maharashtra and Bihar who starve, commit suicide out of indebtedness, and are in danger of being raped and killed because of the “look in their eye” or something like that any day of their lives, fail to see the benevolent richness of the capitalist system they live under!

Interesting links:

http://www.zmag.org/con...ctionID=10&ItemID=11053

http://www.zmag.org/parecon/indexnew.htm

Anil, don’t act like a superstitious priest who will be ritually polluted by the word “class struggle”. Open your mind, be less superstitious, read the above links, understand contemporary currents of thought.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 16, 2006 12:00 AM
6
>>>it was saint gadge maharaj(not a brahmin but a BC ) and golwilkar guruji ( a brahmin, founder of RSS )convinced dr ambedkar to choose budhism

The phrase "pipe dream" alludes to the visions and fantasies opium-smokers have, which some, like Nandu, take to be real.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 16, 2006 12:00 AM
5
Suindari:

How wonderful of you to warble about American "class exploitation". At least in the Western countries since the Nineteenth Century there have been independent trade unions to fight for workers' rights. There have been free elections, which have enabled incredible improvements to be made in working class life. I live in Richmond, British Columbia, and I can tell you I am still amazed how even shop assistants here own huge houses with rooms that seem to be a quarter the size of football pitches. They eat rich and wonderful food, in bigger quantities than is good for them. They have excellent and almost free heath-care. they have safe pensions. They have the freedom to say what they please and worship as they please. Canada is little short of paradise. What more do you want?

In comparison, in so called "Communist" countries, workers were treated with mericiless contempt, denied free trade unions and sentenced to death for expressing their free opinions. They were never given more than a miserable pittance to survive....This is anti-worker exploitation for you.

Wake up ! Get rid of your stale slogans ! Do some thinking with your tenth-rate mind !
Anil Narlikar
Pune, India
Oct 16, 2006 12:00 AM
4
>>>They look at the left with suspision as the left viewed the society as a class struggle (and not a caste struggle)

its a cliche that the left saw society as a class rather than caste struggle. They viewed caste as connected to class. So they wouldn't say that conversion to some other religion, without changing the structures of ownership and division of resources, will change anything. The focus of energy was different.

They are 100% correct in this regard – look around today.

Further, even if things like casteism and racism and sexism seemingly disappear, class oppression is not somehow sweeter than all that. (Americans are finding this out...many people are finding this out...) Especially not if prosperity somewhere depends on squeezing as much labour out of an agricultural worker in Andhra as is possible.


Why do you think colonialism and imperialism strenghtehened caste institutions?? Why have the brutalities we hear of gotten worse since early 80s liberalization? Why didn't all the British or all the Muslim kings ever touch caste structures? Because they had a readymade way to extract revenue, now extract labour… when you've automatically got a system of oppression and coercive extraction in place - why touch it?

Why do you think the US has offered to help India crush the Maoists? Not for religious reasons I assure you - capitalist extraction is at stake here...

>>> while almost fully promoting brahmnical and upper caste leadership (look at the Left leaders even today).

That is decidedly not true of MCC, PWG etc. It is only true of the Left parties involved in parliamentary politics, who are not real leftists anyway and haven’t been for some time!

Also Kumar, let's not get too hung up on tokenism. There's the BJP and Nitish Kumar in Bihar pushing forward a few Dalit faces while with the other hand strenghtening the hands of groups like Ranveer Sena.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 16, 2006 12:00 AM
3
Raghuraman,
>> Will Anand explain why Kanshiram has not allied with the Left anywhere in India? Leftists cannot be called Manuwadis by any stretch of imagination

It is not true that the Left is not considered as Manuwadi by the dalit/backward caste leaders/parties. They look at the left with suspision as the left viewed the society as a class struggle (and not a caste struggle) while almost fully promoting brahmnical and upper caste leadership (look at the Left leaders even today). The left was opposed to caste based identiy politics which did not go well with the agenda of capturing of politcal power by dalits/backwards which is the agenda of parties like the BSP. But I am sure, Kanshi Ram would have aligned wth the left (instead of the BJP) if such support will get them the CM chair. He aligned with BJP because the BJP agreed for Mayawati as CM.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Oct 16, 2006 12:00 AM
2
Will Anand explain why Kanshiram has not allied with the Left anywhere in India? Leftists cannot be called Manuwadis by any stretch of imagination. Why not strengthen the truly secular forces in other parts of the country and change the composition of the Lok Sabha as such?
Raghu
Raghuraman
Chennai, India
Oct 14, 2006 12:00 AM
1
There is a suggestion here that conversion out of Hinduism into, say, Buddhism, enables the convertee to escape out of the 'stigma of caste' and liberates him or her.

I do not know whether the convertees brought 'caste' into Buddhism or into Islam,for that matter. However, there is evidence to suggest the 'caste' was introduced into Christianity especially in the South of India and among converts in the Punjab in Pakistan.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
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