AP
CAMPAIGN
Afzal's Story
'The fight for Mohammad Afzal's life is a fight for all that is good and meaningful in Indian democracy; the cry for revenge and his death represents the dehumanized and authoritarian aspects of the Indian State and civil society.'
FOR THE RECORD
Mohammad Afzal's Letter to All India Defence Committee for SAR Geelani --
Mohammad Afzal
For The Record
Resolution passed jointly by Kashmiri Leaders - Syed Ali Geelani, Shabir Ahmad Shah, Mohammad Yaseen Malik, Mian Abdul Qayyoom, Nisar Ali
For The Record
'I was shocked when I came to know that from newspaper Indian Express that my advocate has requested the court that Afzal wants that he should be killed by lethal injection rather by hanging.'
Mohammad Afzal
Campaign
The Society for the Protection of Detainees' And Prisoners' Rights - Mission Statement

"The quality of a nation's civilization can be largely measured by the method it uses in the enforcement of its criminal law."

"The first obligation of the criminal justice system is to secure justice by seeking and substanting truth through proof. Of course the means must be as good as the ends and the dignity of the individual and freedom of the human person cannot be sacrificed by resort to improper means, however, worthy the ends… Safety of society and the worth of the human person may co-exist in peace."

…Quoted in the Supreme Court judgement
in Parliament attack case.

I believe that if Mohammad Afzal is hanged it will be a severe blow to the future of Indian democracy. Why do I say this? Because the hanging would further institutionalize the growing lawlessness of the police; it would strengthen the growing authoritarianism of the Indian state; it would undermine the peace process in Kashmir and give fillip to the Hindu fascist forces. Let me substantiate each of these points with hard facts and then you, the reader can judge for yourself whether you want to allow Mohammad Afzal to be hanged in the name of your country.

Police lawlessness:

It is true that the attack on the Indian Parliament was the most serious challenge to our democracy and if it had been successful it would have had very long term consequences for the entire region. Precisely for this reason it was imperative that the police and investigation agencies should have carried out an honest and vigorous investigation into the crime. Instead, the investigation agencies did a shoddy investigation, fabricated evidence and manipulated the nation's sentiments by telling lies through the media.

The investigating agencies failed to arrest the three people who they said had masterminded the conspiracy to attack the Parliament: Masood Ahzar, Ghazi Baba and Tariq Ahmad. Then the police try to say that one of the five men who attacked our Parliament was the same man who had hijacked the Indian Airlines plane to Afghanistan. However, it was soon discovered that this was not true. In fact we still do not know the identities of the five men who attacked the Parliament and they were all killed.

The investigating agencies along with the Special Cell of the Delhi Police picked up four persons and charged them with the offence of conspiring to attack the Parliament. And after the arrest they carried out a media trial to make up for the deficiencies in their investigation. They held a media conference on December 20, 2001 in the Special Cell, Lodi Road where they made Mohammad Afzal incriminate himself on the national media. Then in the court under oath the DCP Ashok Chand denied having had such a conference. The Delhi High Court and the Supreme Court noted that this senior police officer told lies on oath in the court.

The courts also noted that the police lied about the time and place of arrest of the accused; they fabricated evidence including the arrest memos and used torture to extract false confessions from the accused. The result of this shoddy investigation was that two of the accused that the police had tried to frame in the case were acquitted because there was no evidence against them at all. The two acquitted are S A R Geelani and Navjot Sandhu wife of Shaukat Guru. Supreme Court also reduced the sentence of Shaukat Guru from death to ten years rigorous imprisonment.

The Supreme Court upheld the death sentence against Afzal Guru despite the fact the court held that there was no direct evidence against him.

No direct evidence

The Supreme Court categorically stated that there was no evidence to show that Mohammad Afzal was a member of any banned organization. In fact the Court acquitted Afzal of the charges under POTA. They held: "The conviction under section 3 (2) of POTA is set aside. The conviction under section 3 (5) of POTA is also set aside because there is no evidence that he is a member of a terrorist organization, once the confessional statement is excluded. Incidentally, we may mention that even going by confessional statement, it is doubtful whether the membership of a terrorist gang or organization is established."

None of the 80 prosecution witnesses ever even alleged that Afzal was in any way associated or belonged to any terrorist organization. Despite these facts the police and a section of the media still refer to Afzal as a "JeM activist".

Does Mohammad Afzal have to pay the price for the shoddy and illegal investigation by the corrupt and communal officers of the Special cell? And the main Investigating Officer, ACP Rajbir Singh is facing serious corruption charges and has been removed from the Special Cell. Another officer was himself arrested on corruption charges.

Rarest of rare cases

Under Indian law death sentence can be awarded only in rarest of rare cases. There is no doubt that the offence Afzal has been accused of is serious. It is very serious indeed. But the question is not the seriousness of the offence but what role, if any Afzal played and whether the death sentence is in accordance with the principles of natural justice and equity.

The Supreme Court has not passed any strictures against the corrupt officers for their shoddy and illegal investigation and has held there is no direct evidence against Afzal. However, they have confirmed the death sentence because they believe that his death is necessary to assuage the feeling of Indian citizens.

I quote from the judgement: "The incident, which resulted in heavy casualties, has shaken the entire nation and the collective conscience of the society will be satisfied if the capital punishment is awarded to the offender. The challenge to the unity, integrity and sovereignty of India by these acts of terrorists and conspirators can only be compensated by giving the maximum punishment to the person who is proved to be a conspirator in this treacherous act. The appellant, who is a surrendered militant and who was bent upon repeating the acts of treason against the nation, is a menace to the society should become extinct. Accordingly we uphold the death sentence."

Can the collective conscience of the Indian people be satisfied if a fellow citizen is hanged without even allowing him to defend himself?

The Supreme Court noted that Afzal was denied access to any lawyer at the stage of interrogation. The Court held: "The access to a lawyer at the stage of interrogation serves as a sort of counterweight to the intimidating atmosphere that surrounds the detenu and gives him certain amount of guidance as to his rights and obligations of the police."

Afzal denied legal assistance

Afzal comes from an economically poor family and did not have the means to engage a lawyer. He was the only one of the four accused who had no lawyer even though he was the most vulnerable. Afzal asked the designated court to appoint a lawyer for him and even gave a list of at least eight lawyers. However, the lawyers refused to represent him out of fear of being dubbed anti-national. When Mr Ram Jethmalani, senior counsel and Member of Parliament offered to defend Geelani the Shiv Sena goons ransacked his office in Mumbai. Such is the patriotism of the Hindu fascist forces.

Finally, the designated judge passed an order on July 12, 2002 appointing a junior lawyer as his amicus curiae and gave Afzal the right to cross examine the witnesses. Everyone knows that a criminal trial requires knowledge of criminal law procedures and it is impossible for a layman to conduct a proper cross examination without legal assistance.

Afzal tried to get legal assistance and if you read his letter to the All India Defence Committee for SAR Geelani and to his lawyer at the Supreme Court you will know how cruelly Afzal was denied an opportunity to defend himself.

A section of the media and the Hindu fascist forces think that by hanging Mohammad Afzal without even listening to his story is a legitimate assertion of nationalism. They are indeed victims of the ideology of Islamophobia spawned by the US war against terrorism. But even in the USA the jury trying Zacarias Moussaoui for committing acts of terror transcending national boundaries was more compassionate than our courts. Zacarias was not given death penalty even though he was involved in the conspiracy to attack the twin towers on September 11, 2001. The reason why he was not given death penalty was because he has an "unstable childhood and dysfunctional family resulted in his being placed in orphanages and having a home life without structure and emotional and financial support eventually resulting in his leaving home due to his hostile relationship with his mother."

If the courts had heard Afzal's story they would have realized that his case cannot be judged or separated from the story of Kashmir Valley and its tortured history of oppression and domination. There is no way to judge Mohammad Afzal without understanding and taking into account the political context of the conflict between the Indian state and people of Kashmir.

Afzal's story

On October 21, 2004 the Kashmir Times carried Afzal's wife's Appeal. It was reproduced in the Asian Age on Novemeber 4, 2004. From Tabassum's story you will understand the tragedy facing the people of Kashmir.

Afzal has corroborated the facts in his long letter to Sushil Kumar the senior advocate who appeared for him in the Supreme Court. However, the facts in the letter were never put on record before the courts.

It is only when we read about the lives of Afzal and Tabassum that we begin to understand the outrage of the people of Kashmir against the death sentence awarded to Afzal. The people of Kashmir have been pouring out in the streets to vent their anger, resentment and anguish not only against a death sentence but for them Mohammad Afzal is a symbol of Kashmiri people's resistance to Indian state's Kashmir policy. A Resolution passed and signed by all the Kashmiri leaders included in this collection of documents [available as a link under 'In This Story' at the bottom of this page] reflects the feelings of Kashmiri people.

The death sentence on Afzal reminds the people of Kashmir of how the Indian State hanged Maqbul Bhatt in the 1980s. It was soon after that the Kashmiris took to armed resistance. Afzal's death sentence has united all Kashmiris across ideological lines. Would it not be wise to learn from past mistakes and understand that judicial murder and state revenge can never lead to justice or bring peace to Kashmir Valley or to our region? The fight for Mohammad Afzal's life is a fight for all that is good and meaningful in Indian democracy; the cry for revenge and his death represents the dehumanized and authoritarian aspects of the Indian State and civil society.

Read Afzal's story in his words and choose what kind of society you want to live in.

Nandita Haksar
New Delhi
October 2006


Nandita Haksar is a civil rights activist, and a Supreme Court lawyer. She is closely associated with the rights of defendants in the Parliament attack case and this article appears as the Foreword to the brochure, Afzal's Story In His Words brought out by The Society for the Protection of Detainees' And Prisoners' Rights (SPDPR), leading the public campaign against the death sentence to Mohd Afzal. Since many of the articles carried in that brochure already exist in the dossier for 'Parliament Attack Case' in chronological order, available as a link under Also See at the bottom of this page, they have been linked directly.

FOR THE RECORD
Mohammad Afzal's Letter to All India Defence Committee for SAR Geelani --
Mohammad Afzal
For The Record
Resolution passed jointly by Kashmiri Leaders - Syed Ali Geelani, Shabir Ahmad Shah, Mohammad Yaseen Malik, Mian Abdul Qayyoom, Nisar Ali
For The Record
'I was shocked when I came to know that from newspaper Indian Express that my advocate has requested the court that Afzal wants that he should be killed by lethal injection rather by hanging.'
Mohammad Afzal
Campaign
The Society for the Protection of Detainees' And Prisoners' Rights - Mission Statement
 
Daily Mail
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Feb 02, 2009 12:00 AM
84
"She did represent one of the accused in the Parliament attack case, S.A.R Geelani, who was finally acquitted."

Ok. Thanks for the info. I did not know that.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Feb 02, 2009 12:00 AM
83
Ganesan,

>> She (Nandita Haksar) could have volunteered-as a SC lawyer. Why she is only a cheerleader and not a player?

She did represent one of the accused in the Parliament attack case, S.A.R Geelani, who was finally acquitted.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Feb 01, 2009 12:00 AM
82
"There is no way to judge Mohammad Afzal without understanding and taking into account the political context of the conflict between the Indian state and people of Kashmir"

And there is no way understand why lot of Indians want Afsal hanged without taking into account the angst developed over a series of terror attacks, immense loss of soldier's life in Kashmir, how Kashmir gets a bulk of money from the state and yet the kashmiris are anti-national to the core and how it enrages Indians and so on.

So stop lecturing about that pig Afsal. And the so called plight of kashmiris. They do not want to stay in India. And we do not want them either. Let them go to their utopia Pakistan. We will arrange bus fairs-one way.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Feb 01, 2009 12:00 AM
81
'WHy she is only a cheerleader and not a player? '

GANESAN

She is being funded heavily perhaps by Jehadies like Teesta . Let her come clean on funds received by NGO run by her .Prof.Geelani another Parliameent terrorist is her client.
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Feb 01, 2009 12:00 AM
80
I have only question for Nandita. She whines and moans about how many lawyers refused to defend Afsal and the SC appointed a junior counsel. WHy you did not defend him?

The description in the end says She is closely associated with the rights of defendants in the Parliament attack case . That is not the same as actually defending Afsal. She could have volunteered-as a SC lawyer. WHy she is only a cheerleader and not a player?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Feb 01, 2009 12:00 AM
79
'Parliament was the most serious challenge to our democracy and if it had been successful it would have had very long term consequences for the entire region. Precisely for this reason it was imperative that the police and investigation agencies should have carried out an honest and vigorous investigation into the crime "

Gotcha ! Conduct Narco on Pargya and Col Purohit .The truth will be out that they were behind the lok Sabha atack !!
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Feb 01, 2009 12:00 AM
78
Stopperbhai,

>> No dissent ever been tolerated in any damn country when it comes with the dealing of a traitor.

Controversies about Americans convicted of supplying top secrets to the the Soviet Union or to Israel have raged for years and years after the convictions.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Feb 01, 2009 12:00 AM
77
Stopperbhai,

>> Its an easier path for one to com to limelight when one tries to be as controversial as possible and one such easy route is to become a secular activist and take up some controversial issue.

One can disagree with Nandita Haksers and Arundhati Ghoshes, one may even get angry with them, but our country is better off for having such dissenting voices, and for having outlets which publish or air such voices.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Feb 01, 2009 12:00 AM
76
Nandita Haksar must be a courageous woman to write this article at a time when demanding Afzal's death has become a test of one's nationalism. But she does not discuss Afzal's actual role in the heinous crime, nor does she say what would be the proper punishment for what Afzal did.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Feb 01, 2009 12:00 AM
75
Rule of law and due process are the cornerstone of any civil society. Unfortunately, our criminal justice system applies them selectively. Afzal would have been just a statistics had he been convicted for a non-emotive issue.Ms. Haksar is fighting not only for Afzal but for all of us who wants to see India blossom into a fairer country.
Farooque Shahab
Manama, Bahrain
Oct 12, 2006 12:00 AM
74
Nandita ji, I am sorry that you are a fellow Kashmiri, the daughter of a great Kashmiri Pandit who made India proud and think on such anti-Indian lines just to get a few words of fashionable praise, a Page 3 status and the label of a human rightist. I wonder if you have ever spoken of the plight of Kashmiri Pandits about 3.5 lakh of whom suffered at the hands of several Afzals in Kashmir and are presently living as refugees in their own country.
P.N.Razdan
Gurgaon, India
Oct 10, 2006 12:00 AM
73
HEARTY CONGRATULATIONS NANDITA JI. YOU ARE NOW ELIGIBLE TO BECOME CHIEF JUSTICE OF PAKISTAN SUPREME COURT. PLEASE LEAVE OUR COUNTRY AND MIGRATE TO PAKISTAN. AND ALONG WITH YOU PLEASE TAKE GULAM NABI AZAD, MEHBOOBA MUFTI, FAROOQ ABDULLAH & OMAR ABDULLAH AND ALL OTHER WHO ARE SUPPORTING AZFAL.
PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE A BLOT TO THE SOCIETY.
Sagar
delhi, India
Oct 10, 2006 12:00 AM
72
One would like to see Haksar and her elk take up the cause of Kashmiri Pandits. Why a one sided protest. C'mon we know you can do it. Something is holding you back. Just shrug that off and protest for the Pandits also.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Oct 10, 2006 12:00 AM
71
Sorry, the author of the previous comment "The hanging of Afzal is not going to solve the terror India is facing" seems to have been authored by the resident Jihadi genius "#####:::::-NNNNN-:::::#####"
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Oct 10, 2006 12:00 AM
70
Mr.Aniket: " The hanging of Afzal is not going to solve the terror India is facing. "
Is pardoning him because Muslim fundamentalists demands so going to solve India's terror problems? Would imprisoning anyone at all going to solve India's problems? Why even have courts and police?
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Oct 10, 2006 12:00 AM
69
I never said that the judiciary is communal(though this option also cannot be ruled out) - I said that the judiciary is corrupt.

>>>>>if so Geelani's case also comes under scrutiny. get him bakc in jail.. by you own logic

Also by yr logic the jessica case should also be closed because according to you "....the checks and balances in system work..." But that will be justice denied to jessica.
Jessica lal case proves beyond doubt that the checks and balances do not work. It brings to the fore the legal systems deficiencies.
>>>> In this case The court itself reopened case. proves checks and balances work in the system



Whether she offered her services or not is not the question.
>>>>> why?
The question is whether he was denied legal represenattion or not.
>>> I would say he was given the process every citizen of India is entitled to. At no point did the court deem that he was not fit to be represented legally. hypothetically If this had been the case where was Ms Haksar then?


Did you care for the victims of terror attacks families ?? Do u know whether the govt has compensated them as promised or not ?? Do u know the names of the security personnel killed ?? An honest answer will show how much concerned you are for the victims of terror attacks.
>>>>irrelevant to the topic. even if the Victims are offered Huge summs of compensation. It still doesnt measure up to the loss they have experienced. The constitution owes them justice.It is the expectation of justice that prevented the families from causing physical harm to Afzal and his family.

Hence I can't understand people like you hell bent on getting afzal hanged.
>>>>> I am not. never claimed to. I am merely discussing the merits of the case from a logical standpoint.

The hanging of Afzal is not going to solve the terror India is facing.

Md Afzal under police custody does not pose any threat to th eindian people - and nobod is going to hijack a plane to secure his release as he does not belong to any terro outfit.
>>>>>>How do you know? can you give that garuntee?
His own wife has admitted to him being at Pok training camps.

What haksar wants is that a second look should be given - and whats the harm in that ??

>>>>>He has been given due process. if the second look yields the same results there will be demands for 3rd look. basically the justice system sucks until it gives a verdict I want.

If suppose after relooking at the discrepancies facing the trial if still Afzal is found guilty - I will be the first person to call for his death.


"......its another thing to say that a person must be treated with kid gloves because of his religion........."

Dont try to divert the topic - Its not because of his religion.
>>>>> it isnt? last I checked the threat of kashmir blwoing wasnt coming from the pope!! or shankaracharya

aniket
sunnyvale, United States
Oct 09, 2006 12:00 AM
68
Mr.Syed Ali Safvi: "If Afzal is hanged on the due date, we may have another mass movement in offing. I hope President of India will consider the mercy petition of Afzal, so that Kashmiris don’t feel alienated. "
Listen to this guy. This is how all closet fundamentalists work - indirect threats of terrorism and blackmail. Why should "Kasmiris be alienated" when a criminal is punished? Even if they are, should this kind of thinking be encouraged by mollycoddling the ones that get "alienated" when a criminal is punished?
And listen to the blatant threat: "we may have another mass movement in offing."
This criminal should be hung just so that fanatics like "Syed Ali Safvi" do not go away with the assumption that they can blackmail the entire nation. If Kashmiris(read Muslim Kashmir residents) want "another mass movement", they should feel free to "mass move" to Pakistan.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Oct 09, 2006 12:00 AM
67
Dara Singh sentenced to death by a lower court
which was subsequently commuted to life imprisonment by the High court.
kk lol
cal, India
Oct 09, 2006 12:00 AM
66
Why can't NANDITA HAKSAR and people from Human Rights Organisation cross the Indian border into Pakistan and preach Human Rights to the terrorists. When Afzal is kept in th jail, if some terrorists take some people hostage for his release. Will NANDITA HAKSAR & Human Rights Organisation take responsibity in such scenario.
Vinay
Bangalore, India
Oct 09, 2006 12:00 AM
65
Can anyone help me out? I forgot. Was Dara Singh sentenced to death sentence(I think he was but not sure). And did the opponents of death sentence raise their voice against the death sentence? Anyone knows?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 08, 2006 12:00 AM
64
Chandan Mitra as usual has written the most cogent piece on the whole issue(No surprise). And the usual response will be easy to predict. "He is a BJP supported"."He is a communalist" and so forth.

Just as the criticisms on Sonia Gandhi are inevtably answered with the person being accused of being a hater. "Did Sonia not lie in from of camera about 272"? "You are a hater. A sanghi".

That goes as debate in the country.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 08, 2006 12:00 AM
63
But the judgement has been online for all to see -- and it is clear as day as the introduction on the homepage itself says:
http://www.outlookindia...804&fname=geelani&sid=6


Rewind: Was he denied proper legal aid, thereby depriving him of effective defence in the course of trial? Was his valuable right of legal aid flowing from Articles 21 and 22 violated? The Supreme Court had categorically ruled that it found 'no substance in this contention'

Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 07, 2006 12:00 AM
62
>> "Of course you also perhaps know all these things but refuse to speak because of communalism."

Of course I do. But then I am a BJP supporter, and by extension communal. Nandita, and others of her ilk, on the other hand, are "liberal" and "secular". They are supposed to speak out against the injustice to Pandits as much as they talk about Gujrat and atrocities by security forces in Kashmir.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 07, 2006 12:00 AM
61
On the fateful day of February 11, 1984, Maqbool Bhat was executed and the consequences are before us. If Afzal Guru is hanged it is going to further deteriorate the situation in Kashmir. Kashmiris are already feeling alienated. Not only will hanging of Afzal jeopardize the ongoing peace process between New Delhi and Islamabad, but it will augment the anti-India elements in the Valley. If Afzal is hanged on the due date, we may have another mass movement in offing. I hope President of India will consider the mercy petition of Afzal, so that Kashmiris don’t feel alienated.
Syed Ali Safvi
Srinagar, India
Oct 07, 2006 12:00 AM
60
NNN says:"what I can tell you is that it is a mixture of few facts and many lies."

Care to elaborate on what the "many lies" are?

Also, pls do post links to the atrocities committed by the Indian Security forces. We would like to see them too.
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Oct 07, 2006 12:00 AM
59
Hi Vishwas

As usual you are again jumping to conclusion and assuming things. You said "........So are you pakis ready to take his tab of lodging, boarding and free food? ...."

I am an Indian citizen not a paki. Anyone who does not agree with yr views does not become a paki.


"........"Indian people" are not ready to drain tax money........."
You need not be concerned about Indian taxpayers as it is better to feed a harmless person in the jail rather than fill the coffers of corrupt politicians.
Anyways u need not be too concerned it is our internal matter - you can worry about the country where u r paying tax.
#####:::::-NNNNN-:::::#####
Ranchi, India
Oct 07, 2006 12:00 AM
58
Bhaskar... thanks for the link to the judgement.

If one manages to go through the entire judgement, it shows that the Supreme Court has indeed accepted some of the prosecutions claims and has discounted a few other claims - and it has given reasons for the same.

SC's comments are being quoted selectively by Haksar and others - but one needs to go through the entire judgement to understand why the SC did what it did.

The SC also comments on why it thinks Afzal's claim of misrepresentation or under-representation does not hold ground.

Incidentally, Seema Gulati, one of Afzal's lawyers asked for her discharge so that she could defend the other accused Geelani.

Also, NNNN, Jessica Lal case can be considered closed if the SC gives its final verdict on the issue. Even if the Delhi HC gives a judgement against Manu Sharma, he still has recourse to the SC.

In Afzal's case, all avenues have been exhausted, save the clemency petition.
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Oct 07, 2006 12:00 AM
57
>>"The hanging of Afzal is not going to solve the terror India is facing."

So encourage them...right

>>"Md Afzal under police custody does not pose any threat to the indian people."

So are you pakis ready to take his tab of lodging, boarding and free food? "Indian people" are not ready to drain tax money.

>>"he does not belong to any terro outfit."

Really...thats a great news.
Vishwas
New York, United States
Oct 07, 2006 12:00 AM
56
Hey NNNN

Go through the judgement yourself. It is online here.

http://judis.nic.in/sup.../qrydisp.asp?tfnm=27092


Read section 18. Afzal did infact have legal representation. Supreme court made sure there was somebody to represent him. He did not like his lawyer is another thing. It is not the court's job to find a lawyer to the plaintiff's liking.

His confession was infact done proper. He was produced before a magistrate within 48 hours and he did infact acquise to the confession. Also contradictory to what the article says there was corroborating evidence - cell phone records of slain terrorists phones, people identifying afzal bought Nitrocellulose from them days before, an lots of additional stuff.

Be assured the trial was fair. If you have any doubts go through the judgement.
Bhaskar
Ann Arbor, USA
Oct 07, 2006 12:00 AM
55
Hi AL BUNDY

I have seen the video to a certain extent and what I can tell you is that it is a mixture of few facts and many lies.

If you want then I can also post the link of several google videos abt the atrocities committed by indian security forces in kashmir.

Of course you also perhaps know all these things but refuse to speak because of communalism.
#####:::::-NNNNN-:::::#####
Ranchi, India
Oct 07, 2006 12:00 AM
54
I give below a Sanskrit poem I wrote in July 2k4, since it appears relevant to the situation:
dushTa-raaD nashTa-raaD bhaved
Soonya-raajyam soniyaa-jam
mahaa-mada-yahaati-kam
dushTa-krishTa-viraajita
m mana-moha-ka-raajitam
sanaatana-dharma-Satrum vighneSah sam-vinaaSayet
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 07, 2006 12:00 AM
53
One thing which is puzzling is that, if this Afzal is such a strong islamist/jehadist moslem, why does he carry a surname of 'Guru' which smacks of hindu infedelism? Perhaps, there has been a hasty investigation/trial. Perhaps, our sonia-ist psuedo-secular OBC-oriented administration wants him to be punished for his surname 'Guru', which suggests of brahminist ancestry before conversion to islam.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 07, 2006 12:00 AM
52
Maybe Nandita and Tabassum Guru should also see the following video

http://video.google.com...ocid=842219646390515565


Of course they know these details. They just refuse to talk about it for the sake of secularism.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Oct 07, 2006 12:00 AM
51
What's more disghusting than bleeding heart leftists like Haksar picking up a cause, however vile, just to spite the Hindu right wing - is the fact that there are enough clever people in our great country who fall for her sick ruse and actually believe that Haksar is raising a voice of conscience and compassion- ignoring the reams of evidence to the contrary laid bare in the SC's judgment.

It is a sad commentary on our state of affairs when some people choose to ignore the glaring realities and cling to a lie, however thinly vieled - just to feel comfortable in the embrace of their bigoted world-view.

Thankfully, the judgement came during UPA tenure. Had NDA been in power, these cynical hatemongers would have spared no moment to label even the supreme court - the only peerless institution left in India as biased and corrupt. Just as Modi(who fared no worse than Rajiv Gandhi in a riot situation) was converted from merely a flawed person to a mass-murderer rivalling Goebells, similarly, the Chief justice would have been tarred and feathered to the loud cheers of these opportunistic human rights activists and their so called secular apologists.

All ye whose heart bleeds for Afzal - you've just been had by Haksar. She played you like the monkeys you are.
Ravi
Denver, USA
Oct 07, 2006 12:00 AM
50
One thing I can not understand is that why the so called intellectuals always vioce their support only when Muslims are involved, but in such cases where Hindus are involved they keep mum.

In the present case, why Mrs. Haskar has not dwelled on the victims of the Parliament attack? May be Police have not investigated the case properly and a false case is thrown on Afzal. But, the police who laid their lives in this attack are not unworthy ones. Should not the victims of this attack seek and get justice? The death penalty to Afzal is the justice given to them and it is not the revenge. And religion should not be there in any arguments. If Afzal is to be given clemency, then why should not Darasingh who was accused of burning a missionary be given clemency also? The criminals of Gujarat riots and 1993 Mumbai blasts also then claim clemency. Can all these can take place. Mrs. Haskar should think on these lines, leaving thinking of Muslims only.
Ramachandra G V
Mangalore, India
Oct 07, 2006 12:00 AM
49
Hi Anket
"........lets assume that the Judiciary/system is inherently biased against the community represented by Afzal. that would mean that Geelani's acquital is also suspect because that too came through the same system/judicary in the same case......"

I never said that the judiciary is communal(though this option also cannot be ruled out) - I said that the judiciary is corrupt.
Also by yr logic the jessica case should also be closed because according to you "....the checks and balances in system work..." But that will be justice denied to jessica.
Jessica lal case proves beyond doubt that the checks and balances do not work. It brings to the fore the legal systems deficiencies.


".........Afzal was denied a legal representation.....hard to beleive. nandita Haksar herself is an emminent lawyer, why didnt she offer her services. ........"

Whether she offered her services or not is not the question. The question is whether he was denied legal represenattion or not. Did you care for the victims of terror attacks families ?? Do u know whether the govt has compensated them as promised or not ?? Do u know the names of the security personnel killed ?? An honest answer will show how much concerned you are for the victims of terror attacks. Hence I can't understand people like you hell bent on getting afzal hanged.

The hanging of Afzal is not going to solve the terror India is facing. Md Afzal under police custody does not pose any threat to th eindian people - and nobod is going to hijack a plane to secure his release as he does not belong to any terro outfit.

What haksar wants is that a second look should be given - and whats the harm in that ??
If suppose after relooking at the discrepancies facing the trial if still Afzal is found guilty - I will be the first person to call for his death.


"......its another thing to say that a person must be treated with kid gloves because of his religion........."

Dont try to divert the topic - Its not because of his religion.
#####:::::-NNNNN-:::::#####
Ranchi, India
Oct 07, 2006 12:00 AM
48
The article tries to argue that the trial was not completely fair, the accused did not have any lawyer, and the confession ws faulty. Please go through the judgement (Section 18 to be precise). The court did make sure that the confessions were not taken under duress, and did afzal did infact have a lawyer to defend him for most of the case.
Also evidence gathered otherwise seems to corroborate the testimony. Being a reputed magazine you should not spread misinformation without looking at the facts first

Bhaskar
Ann Arbor, USA
Oct 07, 2006 12:00 AM
47
#####:::::-NNNNN-:::::#####,
I've tried to understand Nandita and your stand on this issue and havent been able to get accross a few gaping holes. Would be nice to get them cleared by you.
The request for clemency is based on the follwing reasons
1. doubts on India's judicial process/system
fair enough. People are entitled to their opinion on inherent biases in the judiciary. So lets assume that the Judiciary/system is inherently biased against the community represented by Afzal. that would mean that Geelani's acquital is also suspect because that too came through the same system/judicary in the same case. To top it he belongs to the same community as Afzal. SO we are comparing apples to apples. the very fact that Geelani was given the benfit of doubt( not proved innocent mind you) means that the checks and balances in system work and if Afzal was convicted and Geeelani was released on a benefit of doubt, the system works! Q.E.D

2. Afzal was denied a legal representation
hard to beleive. nandita Haksar herself is an emminent lawyer, why didnt she offer her services. The trial was not a secret trial and there were plenty of opportunities to raise a flag if she or other activists who are concered about him thought his legal rights were compromised. Fact of the matter is no did until the sentence. Hence there goes that theory out of the window.
3. Afzal himself hasnt requested clemency nor has he expressed any regret for his actions.
4. It is one thing to campaign against captial punushment but its another thing to say that a person must be treated with kid gloves because of his religion. This sets a very dangerous precedent.
I have more to say but these are the logical points of rebuttal so I will stick to these for now.
aniket
sunnyvale, United States
Oct 07, 2006 12:00 AM
46
good to see Ms Nandita Haskars defence of Mohd Afzal, I am a firm believer that every individual has a right to get fair trial .... we are all created equal and it really doesn't matter what religion we follow or what is our ideology....death sentences are not going to solve any problem that our country faces.... nandita haskar in her article blamed hindu fascists for all the wrong things happening in india and how moderate hindu voices are getting lost...has she ever contemplated about plight of thousands or may be lakhs of hindu refugees from kashmir who are still awaiting justice....how they were thrown out of their own land because they were hindus....or is it not a very attractive thing to pursue for CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVISTS...is it a crime to be majority in india and talk about your right.....i believe in secular credentials of our country and i am proud about that but why should there be difference in treament based on religion.... why not one law for every body....why followers of one religion will get special treatment ....and when something goes wrong......they talk about discrimination.....if india is secular everybody has to be treated equally and should not expect any religious concessions......voice your opinion for once for the majority who are wronged .......try to see both faces of the coin.....
anupam bhattacharya
Lowell, United States
Oct 07, 2006 12:00 AM
45
Hi Ravi
"......People like her who make terrorists like Afzal heroes........"

Can u plz explain how haksar is making afzal a hero by trying to defend him ??
Also by your statement it seems that there is a long history of terrorists being made heroes by people like haksar. Can you give some examples from the past ??
The most recent example of making the terrorists "heroes" that I can recall is of jaswant singh (belonging to the party that prides itself on being the most patriotic and nationalistic) handing over terrorists to the taliban.
#####:::::-NNNNN-:::::#####
Ranchi, India
Oct 07, 2006 12:00 AM
44
Hi Ravi
"......She & other like minded people have not suffered at the hands of terrorists so they dont know the pain, if their sons or husbands or near & dear ones would have been killed I would how they ask for a mercy for these animals..........."

Nobody knows whether the govt has paid the compensation to the security personnel killed in the attack, no one was bothered all these years about the state of the family of security personnel who died in the attacks, but everyone is keen to get Afzal hanged.
It seems that they are more pained than the families of victims themselves.
What haksar is asking is that there should be a fair trial because according to her justice was not done and she has put forward her reasons for the same.
India being a democracy whatever she is doing is perfectly legal. If you dont agree with her then you are free to counter her views - but the kind of intolerance that is visible in yr post (for ex. when u say "...People like her who make terrorists like Afzal heroes should be hanged first...") seems similar to the one propagated by the terrorists.
#####:::::-NNNNN-:::::#####
Ranchi, India
Oct 07, 2006 12:00 AM
43
People like her who make terrorists like Afzal heroes should be hanged first so that the country gets rid of such deplorable souls. She & other like minded people have not suffered at the hands of terrorists so they dont know the pain, if their sons or husbands or near & dear ones would have been killed I would how they ask for a mercy for these animals.

And lastly for your information Ms Haksar in kashmir we have low ceilings and there are no ceiling fans anywhere so I wonder from which ceiling fan his son could have tried hanging to feel the pain his father will suffer. You should have thought of any other lie to convince the President.

Thanks
Ravi Kilam
a displaced kashmiri
Ravi Kilam
detroit, USA
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
42
Hi VIKAS RANJAN

"......Does NNNN have an ALIBI for Afzal at the time and place of the explosion? DOES HE HAVE ANY FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE THAT HE DIDN'T AID AND ABET THE CRIME BECAUSE IT WAS SOMEONE ELSE........."

1) The attack on the parliament was carried out by suicide bombers and all of them died during the atack.
2) All the people who took part in the suicide attack directly have still not been identified by the Indian police.
3) The main masterminds have not yet been caught.
4) Police dont' have direct evidence to link Afzal with the terrorist attack
5) Afzal was not associated with any terrorist outfit
6) Afzal was denied legal assistance
7) Under these circumstances it may indeed be possible that police have taken the confessions under torture - which is quite common in India.
8) If you have still 100% faith in the indian police and judicial system then you can refer to the jessica lal episode when everyone knows who has committed the crime but the guilty still is not getting punished.
9) Do you have first hand knowledge that Afzal was involved in abetting the terrorist ??
If yes then you are also guilty because you chose to remain silent and hence indirectly helped the terrorist carry out the attacks
#####:::::-NNNNN-:::::#####
Ranchi, India
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
41

"The quality of a nation’s civilization can be largely measured by the method it uses in the enforcement of its criminal law."

Perhaps this quality is better measured in preventing the criminalization of the society itself, as happened in India, with nearly 50% of the labor force unemployed, and living in slums!

Regarding hanging of one or two- first India needs to have its own GITMO, with nearly ALL of its officials and bureaucrats inside it.


Bharath
Chicago, United States
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
40
>>Usually by appealing to sentiment :).

Appealing to reason, first principles, balance of individual rights and collective benefits in the long and short terms....
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
39
>>>everyone must "take it" and cannot "leave it."

They leave it when they consciously decide to go against it. (It may not leave them, but they leave it). They may also leave it if they move to some other country where the "crime" will be "honourable".

>>>politics is a public activity of persuading fellow citizens into collective action

Usually by appealing to sentiment :).
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
38
Vish-wash, admiring Sundari, writes:

>>>>The space for sentiment is politics. Law is an impersonal process, rule-governed – take it or leave it

>>Very well said One-liner that sums up every thing.
>>All thugs including OLD MAD please note.

This thug, finding no challeng in pummeling your worldview, notes the space for sentiment is in a lover's embrace. But, politics is a public activity of persuading fellow citizens into collective action; law is the instrument to carry out our collective notion of right, wrong and fair...everyone must "take it" and cannot "leave it."
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
37
Anil Narliker writes:

>>You are dumb. You don't know about the law of diminishing returns.

Au contraire, each one of your posts remind me the ever decreasing incremental insight or enjoyment.

>>You have long passed the point when your blatant double standards made you a clown.

Yet, you seem compelled to flail in return...

>>Ever thought of applying your pompous, finicky legal niceties to terrorists acting against the US - like the ones in Guantanamo?

Sure.

>>No, that's too much for your petty, third-rate, comically unprincipled mind.

You answered your question wrong. See above.

Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
36
Chanakya:

On this occasion you were brilliant.....!
Anil Narlikar
Pune, India
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
35
Nandita Haksar,

When were you when the terrorists were killing innocent law abiding countrymen? When were you when the terrorists were killing our security forces? Had u ever participated in any fund raising events so that the dependants of these countrymen and security forces would have a peaceful life? And if the Kashmiris took to armed resistance, don’t u think that our armed forces can handle that? And if u feel that Kashmiris took to armed resistance, please read the following article:
http://www.indiareacts....tes/nat2.asp?recno=1493


Why don’t u protest for bad roads, corrupt politicians, etcs….Oh yea I forgot, u are protesting for corrupt policemen. But why the media fuzz — just because a minority community was involved and some political mileage can be attained? There could be hundreds who could be tortured and killed across the country. Why are u people silent on these issues? Why are we so obsessed with the Kashmir issue?

Thanks and regards
Biju Thankappan


Thanks and regards
Biju Thankappan
Biju
Mumbai, India
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
34
Hindu nationalists have every reason to rejoice over the Afzal affair and the indecent "secularist" campaign on behalf of a terrorist. It will be like Shah Bhano.
Anil Narlikar
Pune, India
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
33
Old Mac:

You are dumb. You don't know about the law of diminishing returns. You have long passed the point when your blatant double standards made you a clown.

Ever thought of applying your pompous, finicky legal niceties to terrorists acting against the US - like the ones in Guantanamo? No, that's too much for your petty, third-rate, comically unprincipled mind.
Anil Narlikar
Pune, India
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
32
if someone were to shoot nandita haskar like a dog on the street, one must understand that it is not the event one should be swayed by. look deep and you will find that a marginalised segment of society has had its fill of psuedo secular crap. one can never condone such a heinous act, but the poor victim of circumstances who is driven in desperation and frustration to such an unfortunate act, must obviously be given the benefit of compassion, understanding and magnanimity by a civilized society. right?
radesh rangarajan
chennai, India
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
31
""If the courts had heard Afzal’s story they would have realized that his case cannot be judged or separated from the story of Kashmir Valley and its tortured history of oppression and domination. There is no way to judge Mohammad Afzal without understanding and taking into account the political context of the conflict between the Indian state and people of Kashmir."

I think Ms Haksar sees too many Bollywood movies where the angry young hero is acquitted of carnage based on "circumstances".

If her logic is right, then Gandhis' killers (Mahatma, Indira & Rajeev) should never have been hanged.

Ganesan has already spoken about Godhra & Gujarat.
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
30
"If the courts had heard Godse’s story they would have realized that his case cannot be judged or separated from the story of Partition and its impact is torturing the citizens of India. There is no way to judge Nathuram Godse without understanding and taking into account the political context of the situation created by the Partition of India"

"If the courts had heard Satwant’s & Kehar's stories they would have realized that their cases cannot be judged or separated from the story of Punjab and its tortured history of oppression and domination. There is no way to judge Satwant & Kehar Singh without understanding and taking into account the political context of the conflict between the Indian state and people of Punjab."

Now, how does that sound?
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
29
The author says:"it would undermine the peace process in Kashmir and give fillip to the Hindu fascist forces. "

Isn't it the other way around? At a time when there are bomb blasts all over the place and the Govt response is extremely timid (to say the least), the Hindutva Fascist Forcess (HFF) would be waiting for an opportunity to confront the govt again.

It would be an issue handed over to them on a golden platter if the Govt commutes the sentence.
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
28
The author appears to be making a valiant attempt to say that the police will involve an innocent person to be hanged till death merely because they have to close the case. Or is it her case that the Hon'ble SC will give verdict without knowing the impact or the nature of the investigaions. That it has held that there is no direct evidence against the offender is in itself sufficient to prove that it was a considered judgement. IF the author expects that a video recording of the conspiracy is what is required to prove his complicity, then there can be no conviction at all against any criminal. I am sure that neither the police nor the SC are so heartless to hang someone they did not believe to have convicted the crime. I think people like this author need to experience the terror caused by these insane jihadis to understand the pain suffering. Rather, they should be made to live in PAK or Afghan to know the value of democracy and free speech that they take for granted.
ramesh
hyderabad, India
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
27
I contest the arguments of Nandita Haksar on all the four points as below:-
Police Lawlessness: You have to accept the institution in the executive wing of the government as the delivery mechanism. Once you question its results publicly and start a debate, the whole mechanism becomes arbitary. Then instead of trying the terrorist acts in courts- the well established institutions in a country- we should try them in peoples courts. If this is your argument, go ahead and start an agitation on these lines and change the constitution. But dont try to supersede the established law till then by coming out with your advice in the public and force the government to act your way.
No direct Evidence: This is a reflection on the Supreme Courts working and that it has come to wrong conclusion. You are trying to compensate for your failure in the court by expressing your frustration in the public through an open and democratic media. You accept Geelani's benefit of doubt as good judiciary but Afzal's verdict by the same court as bad judiciary. What an argument?
Rarest of the rare cases:You make a point that since Afzal was not the perpetator, he should be let off. This logic doesnt stand well. If that were the logic all planners of gruesome acts would have to be let off. Then we would have to pardon Hitler a thousand times since he never acted himself.
Afzal denied legal assistance: This is not the occasion to complain about this lapse. Where was the Kashmir Bar Association which is more a political body than a legal one. Where were you. A noted lawyer and a Page 3 human rightist. I am surprised that a lawyer is raising this question after the verdict.
Ms Haksar, please understand why the whole country wants the punishment to be delivered.. They are not killer maniacs. They only see how terrorists are playing with the Indian government, get let off and then wait for hijacking etc to be exchanged. Only yesterday, two militants were killed in Srinagar but only after they took lives of 10 persons. Had they been let off as you say, how many persons they would have killed in future.
Please think of the loss you are doing to your country as a aresult of your advice which only gives fillip to terrorism in the country.
P.N.Razdan
Gurgaon, India
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
26
OLD MACAQUE ON GUILT AND INNOCENCE AND CRIME AND PUNISHMENT

OLD MACISM 1. “While it is true he is presumed to be innocent until his guilt is proven by evidence, how can NNNN vouch for his innocence? Does NNNN have an ALIBI for Afzal at the time and place of the explosion? DOES HE HAVE ANY FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE THAT HE DIDN'T AID AND ABET THE CRIME BECAUSE IT WAS SOMEONE ELSE? So, anyone declaring him "innocent" in fact imply because he is a Muslim is as brain-dead as Chaddis declaring him guilty for the same reason...”

OLD MACISM 2 “ No it isn't. I, for one, am a "conservative" in the US and a "liberal" in India. No one needs to convince me there ARE BAD GUYS WHO DO BAD THINGS and that punishing them is not only a good thing but also a right thing.”

OLD MACISM 3 “That you can't distinguish between ISOLATED CASES THAT QUICKLY CORRECT THEMSELVES in anglo-saxon countries from standard operating procedure in India means you will never be persuasive with your judgment.”

And Ladies and Gentlemen now the Truth

1. While NNNN may or may not be a raving Muslim,Old Mac is not a raving Christian . He has perfect ‘alibi’ for all the molesting Padres . He knows that they are not guilty of molesting the children as charged because the Padres were with Old Mac at the material timeAND THE MONKEY HAS FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE OF THAT.
2. And that is why the Macaque watches the BBC so avidly, any one on whom the BBC makes a documentary with a shelf life of 1 week is a ‘good guy’ any one on whom the BBC does not make a documentary, Afzal for example , is automatically a bad guy.
3. See we quickly corrected Vietnam and have not repeated it in Eye-Raque. We also learnt from Abu Gharib and the Illegal detention centers all over Europe. First we denied that they were there and after being caught with our panties down , now our President is not pleading for torture laws. Take a look at the way we treated our White and Black citizens in New Orleans to see our correct approach to all citizens. In the case of Mark Foley when his follies came to light 3 years back we quickly did the right thing by burying the allegation and the evidence.

vikas ranjan
gurgaon, India
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
25
>> isn't it possible that there are two excruciatingly witty outlook readers who see value in a marxist approach

I wish it is possible. my experience is limited to the excruciatingly painful type.

>> so we only respond to views, not to people.

Agree if it is expressed a few times beyond which there is a strong case for psychoanalysis and its other derivatives.
prakash
Sydney, Australia
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
24
Sundari (I hope that accurately reflects your face for it doesn't reflect your philosophy) writes:

>>isn't it possible that there are two excruciatingly witty outlook readers who see value in a marxist approach?

It's possible...just that they haven't posted yet.

>>If you ask me, everyone should change names on this forum all the time, so we only respond to views, not to people.

Actually, it wouldn't matter to me if you were the bride of frankenstein...all I have to judge and assess are words on my screen.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
23
Just to substantiate my premonition, in the thread belong to “The Us v/s Them of Quotas” by Yadav, I wrote the following…

Daily Letters | 3 Oct, 2006 09:14:09PM (IST)
Sundari writes:

….

An Audio-Animatronic is different from android-type robots. The former works off prerecorded moves and sounds, rather than process external stimuli and respond to them. You obviously prefer to work off prerecorded sounds of a 19th century philosophy rather than process and respond to the stimuli from its actual experience in the 20th century. In short, you are a talking animatronic dummy in the reductionist section of a Museum of Modern Antiquities.

OLD MAC
WONDERVILLE UNITED STATES

That is not say her viewpoint is illegitimate or whose posts not worth considering (for example like Raj Bodepudi (Bharath) and Minu_Chaterjee (Bankim)); but it is a hard sell to anyone who functions beyond slogans.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
22
Prakash and Old Mac, isn't it possible that there are two excruciatingly witty outlook readers who see value in a marxist approach?

If you ask me, everyone should change names on this forum all the time, so we only respond to views, not to people.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
21
Prakash writes:

>>Sundari, your interest in marxism makes me wonder if you are a reincarnation of Tinkers, the only other person on this forum who seemed to have expressed a fondness for such philosophy.

ugh! I was beaten to the punch again. I was just thinking exactly along the same thing! I used you call her Tinkerbell from "Philadelphia"; a grad student of some sort. If so, I wish to apologize to her for previously insinuating that she wore Karl Marx designer label red bikinis with a small gold hammer and sickle embroidered randomly on them.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
20
Sundari >> Let the morons join the broad based marxist-inspired, anti-capitalist international movement now stretching from Venezuela to Nepal, and I'll be interested, as well as sympathetic.

Sundari, your interest in marxism makes me wonder if you are a reincarnation of Tinkers, the only other person on this forum who seemed to have expressed a fondness for such philosophy.

At times, more interesting than reading the blog is to guess who has morphed into who (excluding the bleedingly obvious ones).

regards
prakash
Sydney, Australia
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
19
Srini >> I am at loss for words

Word count in Microsoft Word tells me your loss occurred only after 389 words. Not bad.

cheers
prakash
Sydney, Australia
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
18
Srini writes:

>>I am at loss for words

After reading 389 words, should we care?
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
17
What is this nonsense about "Stigma to indian democracy" ? This person has bought the chemicals, telephones, arranged the placed to hide AND participated on conspiracy to kill the entire political leadership of the country. In the process, killed 10 police personal. He went thourgh the three tiered judicial process and all the three courts found him guilty and awarded him the capital punishment. Why are we even having this debate that the punishment should be reduced ? Are the lifes of the victims of no value ? Aren't there any levels these leftist loonies would swoop in their self detestation ?

People talk about larger context. Yes, let us talk about the larger context. The context has about 200 people killed in 7/11 terrorist blasts. Would it be stigma to punish those torrorists too. Would it also be stigma to punish the perpetrators of 1993 blasts ?

Look at what the avergae folks have to see and put up with:

1) Most of the time, terrorists can not be caught for number of reasons. Latest reason I heard is that, we must be careful not to focus ( or seen to focus ) on particular community

2) Some go and hide in the friendly countried and continue to enjoy 24 carots of life from there - Dawwod, Tiger Memon

3) Once caught, our impotent leaders let them walk away becoz of black mail - Rubiya Saed episode ; Massod Azar, Omar Shaiek ( Btw - Every one seem to remember Jaswant Singh but seem to have forgotten the role of leftists. It is they, who instigated the pubic and carried the drama in the streets of Delhi. Eternal Shame on them ). Apparently Pakistan made a serious effort to get Afzal in exchange for Sarabjit.

4) At times our legal process let some people out for want to CLEAR and convincing evidence ( Motto being let 99 criminals be let out but not a single innocent be punished. Noble as the sentiment is, in reality, it translates to 99% of criminals being let out ). Prof Jilani was let out by the Supreme Court despite expressing serios doubts about him

5) And finally, after all these filters, one of them is cought, put on trial, found guilty three times. And now the terrorist sympathisers start all this debate.

I am at loss for words
Srini Jasti
San Jose, USA
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
16
sundari
Let the morons join the broad based marxist-inspired, anti-capitalist international movement now stretching from Venezuela to Nepal, and I'll be interested, as well as sympathetic.


why??
that would be akin to going from ad-hoc unorganized and impulsive path to deptrivation to an organized, well planned and streamlined one.
in which part of the world has froced marxism and anti-capitalism succeeded? venezula and nepal (with all the leftist countries in between)hardly have a very desirable development index that we can think of emulating.
bhushan
richmond, United States
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
15
By nationalism I meant Kashmiri nationalism, Muslim nationalism as well as Indian nationalism. Any nationalism.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
14
As for the Kashmiri people - I don't really respect nationalist strugles any more. Nationalism in my opinion is a dreadful thing.

Kashmiri problems aren't going to be solved by nationalism, or by joining Pakistan. Let the morons join the broad based marxist-inspired, anti-capitalist international movement now stretching from Venezuela to Nepal, and I'll be interested, as well as sympathetic.

But militancy based on religion or some fantasy of a new nation is just not my cup of tea, given that the success of such movements results only in other tiered societies with class-based exploitation. Who will they be mad at then??
Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
13
Nandita,

You are a supreme court lawyer. Why did you not appeal to the SC to let you represent him, or at least got someone to do it. Or, as you said, Afzal could not afford your fees?

Let's suppose he is innocent. He got his day in court ad lost. If you have problems with the SC, tough luck. Agreed, in that case, it would be a miscarraige of justice. However, there is no evidence to prove that. There have been any number of cases everywhere in teh world where innocent people were punished. The important thing is that they got the due process.

The country can hardly go about pardoning criminals becasue there will always be 'sections of society' who think that it was a miscarraige of justice.

Your selective quotations from the judgemnt just betray your bias. I read it too. I did not see anything wild going on as you allege. You are looking for ghosts where non exist.


If you do not agree with the process, change it or fight it. Until then, shut up.
Ravi
Denver, USA
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
12
Nandita quotes selectively from the SC judgment those parts which state what Afzal was NOT proven to be – not a member of a banned organization etc etc.

Yet, the same SC gave a final judgment for a death sentence.

So, obviously, it is not that the SC is trying to hide something, its just that Nandita is NOT highlighting what the SC does accuse him of.

Tucked away in her article is the snippet of the SC judgment that says Afzal “is proved to be a conspirator in this treacherous act. The appellant, who is a surrendered militant and who was bent upon repeating the acts of treason against the nation”… etc

That’s the Supreme Court of India, which has concluded, after pointing out all the things he can’t be accused of, that he can be accused of certain other things, which warrant the sentence they give him.

One would have respected Haksar more if there wasn’t this sneakiness and selective quoting in her article. It is she who is undermining the judicial system, and making her honesty seem questionable.

The Supreme Court is the same court that we liked on the Best Bakery case, mind you. To start harping on how a legal judgment from this court should be suspended because of people’s sentiments is appalling. The space for sentiment is politics. Law is an impersonal process, rule-governed – take it or leave it.




Sundari
Chennai, India
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
11
Ravi,

I was referring to the irregularities mentioned in this article. I would still say that on balance he is guilty, but not being a lawyer, and after reading of the procedural lapses, I cannot say for sure that the verdict was 100% correct. I too have been trying hard to reach sensible people from the other side, but I am afraid you are not one of them.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
10
May be Afzal’s claim of incompetent lawyers has merit after all. For example, this lawyer argues, “The Supreme Court categorically stated that there was no evidence to show that Mohammad Afzal was a member of any banned organization” as if he is convicted for belonging to a group. He engaged in a criminal conspiracy and assisted five terrorists who were killed in carrying out an attack; violating several statutes.

She further argues, “Afzal was denied access to any lawyer at the stage of interrogation.” I don’t know if there is a right under the Indian law to have a lawyer present when being interrogated by the cops without which a confession is invalid. It is certainly true that having a lawyer in the coercive atmosphere of a police station will embolden a defendant. But the issue that should concern the country is did he confess voluntarily or via coercion…more importantly was it false? I heard no allegations of what specific threats, force or actions were used in coercing out a false confession. There was nothing in the court opinion or this article that indicates that.

I don’t give a damn about the Hindu fascist forces and whether they assert nationalism or that the moon is made out of blue cheese. What matters are the facts in this case and that defendant’s rights were vindicated. I would argue that the best shot across the bow of the Hindu fascists is to show we focus on the facts and the law without regard to stupid-ass excuses...their turn will come as surely as the sun rises.

She claims, “If the courts had heard Afzal’s story they would have realized that his case cannot be judged or separated from the story of Kashmir Valley and its tortured history of oppression and domination.” As someone who believes that Kashmir is a blot on India, it is also irrelevant to this case. Lots of people are victims of rape, torture, murder and mayhem by the Indian security forces in Kashmir. But, none of them killed people in trying to blow up Parliament.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
9
Ghulam,

Now, suddenly, after reading a few articles, you are not so sure about the verdict. Are you a legal brain on Indian law to be able to say that with certainty? If this indeed was a travesty of justice, why was this issue not reported in the press before? Why has the green and 'secular' brigade suddenly woken up?
And answer me this - you belong to a country that gave due process under accepted law to a criminal. The county's highest court, comprising of the best legal minds this country has to offer, came to a decision. So, where's the catch? If you disagree with that decision, well, go and become a supreme court justice.

Oh I see it - opportunists like you like to accept SC's judgments only if they are convenient to you. If you don't like it, you either get Congress to overrule it (Shah Bano) or get some bleeding heart foolish leftists to oppose it.

Sorry, my man. No matter how much you try to portray yourself as a sensible, upright, thinking individual, the fact remains that you hold deep mistrust towards your Hindu brothers.

No matter what we do will be ever enough to placate you and your leftist friends. I have been trying very hard to reach out to sensible people from the other side fo the argument, but time and again, you betray our faith.
Ravi
Denver, USA
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
8
It is reliably learnt that once Kalam pardons Afzal, plans are already in place to make him a cabinet minister of a new cabinet that would specifically deal with the anti-terror mechanism with Pak. This move is contemplated, in order to appeal to the kashmiris and to prove to them that the Indian state is sensitive to their problems. And ofcourse the usual minority votes consideration also played a part. It is expected that because of this move, muslims would merge into the national mainstream. And after that, peace and prosperity will reign in India.

The only downfall appears to be Shibu Soren's anger. He is worried that his number one position among ministers( when ranked based on criminal record) will be affected. He hates to be number two and has expressed his anger to the Prime Minister. The PM, it is learned, has promised to take necessary steps so that both Afzal and Soren will be on an equal footing.

(based on UNI news reports dated 11/11/2006)
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
7
"If the courts had heard Afzal’s story they would have realized that his case cannot be judged or separated from the story of Kashmir Valley and its tortured history of oppression and domination. There is no way to judge Mohammad Afzal without understanding and taking into account the political context of the conflict between the Indian state and people of Kashmir.

If the secularists have heard the rioters story who engaged in barbarity in Gujarat, they would have realized that their stories cannot be judged or separated from the Godhra carnage and of the history of hindu-muslim tensions in gujarat over the years. There is no way to judge the rioters without understanding this history and the political context of the conflict betweem hindus and muslims.

Does the above go down the throat of secularists?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
6
Geelani was released on a technicality. And the intellectuals assured us how justice has been served. This happened with SC. Now the same SC convicts Afzal and this is a severe blow to democracy. That is if a terrorist or a supporter to terrorists is released, justice is served. Else justice is murdered.

Thats new jurisprudence. The SC must evaluate cases based on whether the person supports terrorists or not. If the former, he must be released(as we all know this would aid in the peace process) and if its the latter, he must be prosecuted. It seems the top two profitable businesses to be are 1) Terrorism 2) Supporter of terrorism. No other profession gets such a support.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
5
The judicial process seems to have been very flawed, and so it is very difficult for me to be sure about the validity of the verdict. But I will say this. As an Indian I am proud that we have advocates such as Nandita Haksar in our country, and I am proud that we have publications such as OUTLOOK with the courage to publish these articles.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
4
Is there any plan to bring out in book this great Afzal's story? Some thing like "My Experiments with blowing up". The govt can give the book free of cost or at a very cheap rate. That might help in the peace process. That might also convince the kashmiris about the seriousness of the Indian state(as they are not part of the Indian state) in bringing peace in the valley.

Finally the book can be given the Sakhithya Academy award and all the other awards. Or better still-institute a new award in Afzal's name. The criteria being the individual must have a proven track record in ATTEMPTING to blow up places like parliament, PM's house, malls and so forth and policemen must have died in the process. But if he actually blows up the place, the deal is off. Because you see, the Indian state is very tough in dealing with terrorism.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
3
" I believe that if Mohammad Afzal is hanged it will be a severe blow to the future of Indian democracy"

How many times have heard this-especially in the last 10 years? If BJP govt comes, it will be the end of democracy. If Modi wins in Gujarat, it would be the death knell to democracy. The conduct of the UPA govt in Bihar and Jharkand is a serious blow to democracy. If this happens its a blow to democracy. If that happens, its a severe blow to democracy.......If we count it from the time of independence, democracy must have received severe blows atleast 700 times. Not even Bush has received so many blows! It has become a fashion to say this with no context and meaning whatsoever.

And Afsal didnt have a lawyer!! Why this lady did not represent him? After she is a lawyer( I dont know the type but better than Afsal). Why the NHRC was silent? What were these guys doing in order to help him get a lawyer? Why is that this is mentioned only now? And why did Sushil Kumar, who appeared for him in the SC not represent him in the trial?

And we are supposed to read his story and weep. I did. Now will you please hang him? I promise to weep again for his death.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
2
"it would undermine the peace process in Kashmir and give fillip to the Hindu fascist forces"

So it is not about justice at all. This appeal against the hanging of a criminal who plotted destruction of the symbols of Indian democracy is really to checkmate the "Hindu fascist forces"!! So the people in India affected by his brazen crime are "Hindu fascist forces"? Says reams about how this brigade operates. Anything to spite Hindus and side with a Muslim perpetrator. This is not "a fight for all that is good and meaningful in Indian democracy". It is a blatant blow to every citizen of India that a criminal against their state is glorified and sympathized while the victim is demonized. These are the anti-patriotic hate-mongers that provide moral support to the criminals that are attacking the very symbols of democracy in India. India is not a democracy because of people like this criminal and a death sentence for his crime will only send a strong message against such blatant acts against the Indian state. His hanging will only strengthen democracy, we have nothing to apologize for while punishing an anti-national criminal.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Oct 06, 2006 12:00 AM
1
Nandita:

Please watch www.c-span.org under Q&A on Aug 25th.

Here is a sample of Brian Lamb's interview with Robert Spencer, regarding Islamic extremism.

"UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: The true faith of Islam we believe is a
religion of peace and we intend to work with them in that regard.

LAMB: So what are you hearing that you want to comment on?

SPENCER: I think that's all hogwash, I'm sorry to say. Islam is the
only religion in the world that has a developed doctrine, theology and
legal system that mandates violence against unbelievers and mandates
that Muslims must wage war in order to establish the hegemony of the
Islamic social order all over the world.:

Please
watch

www.jihadwatch.org
www.dhimmiwatch
.org

This case is a symptomatic of a bigger cancer
afflicting India. The debate has to be on India's Clash with Islam-a FACT-Based debate and an honest appraisal of who we are-not on what Islam is-since that already had been FIRMLY established.



Bharath
Chicago, United States
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