AP
the vatican: papal apology
Father Complex
The Pope thinks aloud. The echoes are louder. The dialogue of faiths is a medieval war.
Pope Benedict XVI's terrible faux pas against Islam, the resultant rage across the Muslim world, the qualified apology and the coalescing of forces on both sides over the past ten days is an apt pointer to the times. Calls to Allah to "curse the Pope" and assertions that "Islam will conquer Rome" burst on the Arab street while the Romans noted the "humiliation" inflicted on the father of their faith.
 
 
Not that he spares the West. But the Pope comes to other religions from a position of superiority.
 
 
An Italian commentator demanded the West "react with strength because our territorial and political freedom is at stake". It wasn't a full-fledged clash, but it marked the civilisational frontiers with warriors at the ready, prompting many to wonder if we indeed live in the 21st century or some dark, medieval age.

Unfortunately, the Pope's point of departure in the speech that rocked the world was indeed a medieval king, Emanuel Paleologus II, head of the Byzantine empire but under siege from the Turks. The Pope quoted the king as saying Islam was "evil and inhuman" and spread by the sword. He apologised but the first papal mea culpa was for the reaction it triggered, not for invoking the offensive passage. He stressed he wanted "a frank and sincere dialogue". The word "frank" stands for—let's talk about terrorism and religious freedom in Muslim countries.

But instead of dialogue, there's a harvest of denunciation, reminiscent of the Danish cartoon controversy. It has been seen as a "deliberate offence" by Muslims the world over. The believer-in-chief, President George Bush, was compelled to come to the Pope's rescue and endorse his apology as "sincere". He persuaded Malaysian premier Abdullah Ahmad Badawi to issue a statement of "acceptance" as the chair of the 57-member Organisation of Islamic Conference. German Chancellor Angela Merkel too joined the papal defence forces which responded with a flurry of articles, explanations and background briefings.

That the quote was provocative is without question. Even the Pope's defenders admit he barged in where he should have feared to tread. "It was a mistake. There is no way of getting around that," said Fr Daniel Madigan, a dean at the Gregorian University, one of the oldest Roman Catholic institutions. "If we want a dialogue with other religions, you have to let Muslims say what they believe. To quote this king who was at war with the Muslims is not fair. I hope he has learnt something from this."

But others noted that the extreme reaction in the Muslim world only reinforced the Pope's point about religion as a motivation for violence. There is a huge paradox in rebutting accusations that Islam is violent by reacting violently. Father Ernesto Travieso, head of the Vatican's documentation service and a Cuban, said the medieval past is soaked in blood from both sides. But he added that the Crusades came much after the expansion of Muslim power through North Africa, Spain and up to France within a 100 years of the Prophet. "Crimes were committed in the name of Christ but we have apologised," he said, naming three past popes who tendered apologies, albeit qualified. "Personally I would like to hear an apology from them for all that happened. Christians too have been victimised."

An Indian priest at the Vatican said the Pope wants harmony with the Muslim world and that the Vatican has taken a stand against the Iraq war. "You have to keep your doors open but it seems they are just waiting to pounce. This is fanaticism and we are just giving in. Do we have a head on our shoulders?" he asked. Pope Benedict surely does, and he has taken a harder line on radical Islam, challenging and critiquing it. He has called terrorism a form of "moral perversion". He wants a dialogue but one with "teeth", says John Allen, a respected analyst of the Vatican. The Pope's teeth were visible in the ill-chosen medieval quote.

The Pope was staking out ground for Christianity against a resurgent Islam in the public square of world religions. He believes Islam has the potential to encourage extremism because of the concept of jehad. He also wants "reciprocity"—Christians must get the same rights and freedom to build churches in Muslim countries as Muslims get in the West. He has opposed Turkey's entry into the EU because, as a Muslim country, it was "in permanent contrast to Europe".

But he's equally harsh on the West for losing faith and morals, becoming overly secular, for falling birth rates and decreasing church attendance. Reports that thousands of whites in Europe and the US are turning to Islam for "answers" can't have soothed him either. So he's pushing the buttons unlike John Paul who, while harshly battling "godless Communism", actively promoted inter-faith dialogue. But one of Benedict's first acts as Pope was to remove Archbishop Michael Fitzgerald, head of Vatican's inter-religious dialogue, who was seen as "soft", and fold his department into the ministry of culture. Dialogue with other religions would henceforth be at a "cultural" level.

Benedict comes to other religions from what appears to be a position of superiority. He treats Islam as "the other" and doesn't often even acknowledge Hinduism which is clubbed under "Asiatic religions". He makes it clear that Christianity is the only "true" religion. Before being elected Pope, he was the head of the Vatican's doctrinal office, one that wards off any dilution of the faith. "It does get people's back up when you say that not all religions are true. But then it becomes a nonsense if we say all religions are true. The real task is to respect other people," Madigan said.

The "others" who have dealt with the Vatican under Pope Benedict are sceptical. Sadhvi Chaitanya, a Hindu monk who attended an inter-religious dialogue near Rome in May, noted the "glaring contradictions in Vatican's approach to religious traditions other than their own". The same month the Pope had sternly reminded the Indian ambassador of India's secular tradition and complained about anti-conversion bills. "The Pope's recent controversial speech, in which he traces secularism as the cause of various societal ills, stands in stark contradiction to his statement that India is not secular enough. Such incidents make one wonder about the Vatican's interest and motives in engaging in dialogue," she told Outlook.

"If the Vatican could understand that every religious and spiritual tradition is as sacred as Christianity, and that they have a right to exist without being denigrated or extinguished, it will greatly serve the interests of dialogue, mutual respect, and peaceful coexistence," she added.

 
Daily Mail
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Sep 29, 2006 12:00 AM
95
Old Mac:

I have yet to read a single word of respect from you for Hinduism. Can it be the only religion without merits? It is more tolerant than most in terms of ideas, I think, for all its casteist faults.
Anil Narlikar
Pune, India
Sep 29, 2006 12:00 AM
94
Anil writes:

>>So you analyse Islam's flaws with clinical precision? It's a new habit with you, though a laudable one.

I have been scrupulously consistent. I have and will defend Muslims, particularly Indian Muslims, and their right to be treated fairly. I will resist others attempting to demonize Muslims in general. While you may be eager, I am not about to write-off a fifth of humanity based on your crude monomaniacal stereotypes.

On the other hand, there is nothing inconsisent about criticizing Islam and its theological ideas. And I have been doing that long before you began posting under various IDs. But, I have argued against attributing to Muslims every action and thought as exclusively motivated by religion.

>>Previously you used to produce obtuse apologias for those flaws..

Obtuse could hardly be the reason why my defense of Muslimdom sticks in your mind. On the contrary, it rang like a bell next to your low-grade monomania to attribute every bad thing to Islam proper. Here's a simple rule: distinguish people from ideas and be generous with the former while unforgiving with the later.

>>If Muslims did anything embarsassingly criminal, it was due to geology, ontology, orthodontics, obstetrics, penortic gampiologics etc.

I only resisted demonization of Muslims in general and attempt to short change their legitimate rights. Here's more free opinion. Satire is a means to an end. In your hands, it never rises above crude and heavy-handed club. The more delicate the satire, the more eviscerating it is.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 28, 2006 12:00 AM
93
Old Mac:

You say you analyse what is nonsensical about Islam with surgical precision. Good.

How about doing the same for Christianity? Or are you a paid-up devotee to the idea of virgin births?

Anil Narlikar
Pune, India
Sep 28, 2006 12:00 AM
92
Old Mac:

So you analyse Islam's flaws with clinical precision? It's a new habit with you, though a laudable one. Previously you used to produce obtuse apologias for those flaws.....pretending they didn't exist. If Muslims did anything embarsassingly criminal, it was due to geology, ontology, orthodontics, obstetrics, penortic gampiologics etc.
Anil Narlikar
Pune, India
Sep 28, 2006 12:00 AM
91
Sundari writes:

>>Old Mac, cornered, turns abusive!

There is no law against fantasy...you might as well fantasize about me without my shirt on...
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 28, 2006 12:00 AM
90
Mac says:"First, the pope said "followers" of various religious traditions. Get it numbskull? followers are different from the traditions themselves."

So does the pope have respect for gays who followers of Christian religion?

Does the pope have respect for people who support/undergo/perform abortions but are followers of Christian religion?

Why does the church excommunicate them? After all, these followers are different from the religious traditions and beliefs of anti-gay, anti abortion.
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Sep 28, 2006 12:00 AM
89
Yes, now we are really seeing the weeny twist in the wind.

So there you have you, you can respect followers of a religion without respecting their traditions.

So I guess, you can respect the Nazis without respect for their Nazism convictions and traditions. YOu see, both are different from each other.

You can respect racists without respecting racism - you can respect members of the KKK without respecting their cross burning and white hoods.

Incidentally, the pope said: "become a seed of hope for building authentic fraternity between peoples, in the mutual respect of the religious convictions of every person."


Religious convictions have a connotation which means "traditions" and respect has a connotation which means "sacred".

>>>> Mac says "I realize your sophomoric overeagerness made you into a flaming jackass for our amusement."

And your overeagerness to argue on semantics has proved that you are the "proverbial lil piece of shit" that we have trouble in flushing down.
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Sep 28, 2006 12:00 AM
88
OLD MACAQUE AS AN ARGUMENT AGAINST CHRISTIANITY

“The papal strategy is to argue the existence of God against the atheists; argue monotheism against polytheism; argue over the nature of monotheism against Islam; and disagree over the nature of faith against Protestantism...all simultaneously.”

So the Saints did not go massacring in, they did not even go marching in. In the World according to the Macaque they went arguing in. They had such weighty ‘reason’ behind their arguments that 60 million people across four continents got crushed under the arguments. And countless others became slaves in their own lands or ‘export goods’ all over the Kingdom of The Son of God.

Papa is also into marrying ‘Reason’ with Faith. The Papal Bull of 1493 on the treatment of the heathens of the New World is a shining example of such reason and the Holy Child of this ‘reason’ also known as The Spanish Proclamation drips with ‘reasonableness’.

vikas ranjan
gurgaon, India
Sep 28, 2006 12:00 AM
87
Old Mac, cornered, turns abusive!

Bharath, I define my Islamophobia as a distaste for the incoherent, unethical and totalitarian nature of the religion. I do not at all dislike or feel any desire to harm Muslims, just consider the more pious caught in an unfortunate system which is as difficult to come out of as heroin. Reading the experiences of apostates gives one an insight into the mechanisms of mind control and social control built into a totalitarian creed.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Sep 28, 2006 12:00 AM
86
Chanakya writes:

>>His enthusiasm in attacking the Hindu Monk and Hindus and then Indians is distinctly absent when he is challenged that Papa Ratzi expressed "respect for followers of all religions, particularly muslims"

You are about as hard as a boiled peanut. First, the pope said "followers" of various religious traditions. Get it numbskull? followers are different from the traditions themselves. I have a great deal of respect for jews, muslims, catholics, hindus etc...but that is different from respecting the traditions themselves and that in turn is very different from finding a "right to exist without being denigrated or extinguished..." In fact, I consistently and ably defend Muslims in India to be treated fairly yet analyze the weakness of Islam and its theology with clinical precision.

Second, if the Pope ever were to say that all religious traditions are equally valid, then he would be a dope just like you and the monk.

>>Does he not realise that when the good father says "followers of ALL religions" he means Aztecs too?

I realize your sophomoric overeagerness made you into a flaming jackass for our amusement.

>>Ladies and Gentlemen, we, yet again, expose the greatest racist (or was it rascist) in this forum, Old Mac from Wonderville.

the greatest indeed!!
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 28, 2006 12:00 AM
85
Mac says: "It is possible that the pope is a dope. But there is no doubt that you are."

The term "it is possible" leaves room for an element of doubt.

But let us sample some of his statements when he is assessing the statements that the monk
made:

*************************************

"The sloppiness with which this monk thinks is unbelievable."

"The monk is bunk"

"Its precisely this kind of monkery that Hinduism generally belabored under for several millenia and still does today."

"No wonder the country is like a jeep stuck in the mud in rainy season with its wheels spinning. Everyone wants to introduce irrelevant and extraneous side matters to a discussion topic at hand. This general lack of discipline in thinking and failing to stay on point is utterly depressing.
"

**********************************
>All emphatic statements - including the one where he has no doubt that I am a dope. (Hey that could mean I can be the Pope some day)

His enthusiasm in attacking the Hindu Monk and Hindus and then Indians is distinctly absent when he is challenged that Papa Ratzi expressed "respect for followers of all religions, particularly muslims"

Does he not realise that when the good father says "followers of ALL religions" he means Aztecs too?

Ladies and Gentlemen, we, yet again, expose the greatest racist (or was it rascist) in this forum, Old Mac from Wonderville.
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Sep 28, 2006 12:00 AM
84

Major Premise (The Pope's statements): "the blood shed by such a faithful disciple of the Gospel may become a seed of hope for building authentic fraternity between peoples, in the mutual respect of the religious convictions of every person."

Benedict also expressed respect for followers of all religions, "particularly Muslims,"


Minor Premise: Aztecs' practice of human sacrifice is part of their "religious and spiritual tradition...". It was part of their "religious conviction".

Minor Premise: Aztecs' conviction is part of "every" religious and spirtual tradition.

Conclusion: Aztecs' practice of human sacrifice must be understood as "...sacred...and...have a right to exist without being denigrated or extinguished..."

The humble contribution of Twisted Macaca logic.

Did someone say familiar words?
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Sep 28, 2006 12:00 AM
83

Mac writes:"Condemning the murder of an old nun automatically results in endorsement of Aztec practice of human sacrifice out of "mutual respect"? If it weren't for your stupendous logic, I would be bored to tears."


Mac dont skirt the issue (no pun intended). The emphasis was not on the condemnation, but on the sentence "in the mutual respect of the religious convictions of every person".

Your attempts to get yourself out of the deep hole of shit you dug for yourself would have been humourous if it was not so pathetic.
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Sep 28, 2006 12:00 AM
82
Chanakya writes:

>>When the Pope says: "in the mutual respect of the religious convictions of every person", I guess he includes, among others, the long dead Aztecs too.

Condemning the murder of an old nun automatically results in endorsement of Aztec practice of human sacrifice out of "mutual respect"? If it weren't for your stupendous logic, I would be bored to tears.

>>Since the "monk is bunk" for suggesting a similar thing, do we say that the "pope is dope"?

It is possible that the pope is a dope. But there is no doubt that you are.

Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 28, 2006 12:00 AM
81
"Benedict also expressed respect for followers of all religions, "particularly Muslims," during his weekly general audience in St. Peter's Square. "

Link:
http://www.washtimes.co...060920-105251-1347r.htm


The Aztecs must be celebrating in their graves as the good father said "all religions".

And the Monk and Indians should be happy - now that Papa Ratzi (and in all probability his flock) is also embracing "non-sensical bunk".

But then the Indians were always light years ahead of the others in such tolerance.
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Sep 28, 2006 12:00 AM
80
Mac says: "The endemic mental indiscipline takes the conversation in all directions including a hilarious rendition of middle age history that has no bearing to the monk's claim that "...that every religious and spiritual tradition is...sacred...and that they have a right to exist without being denigrated or extinguished..."

Refer to this link:
http://www.catholicnews...stories/cns/0605329.htm


"The pope said he hoped that "the blood shed by such a faithful disciple of the Gospel may become a seed of hope for building authentic fraternity between peoples, in the mutual respect of the religious convictions of every person."

When the Pope says: "in the mutual respect of the religious convictions of every person", I guess he includes, among others, the long dead Aztecs too.

Since the "monk is bunk" for suggesting a similar thing, do we say that the "pope is dope"?

I wonder how many other "faithful disciples of the Gospel" embrace this "non-sensical dope"

Now let's see the "weenies twist".
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Sep 27, 2006 12:00 AM
79
Uh..like, maybe the monk didn't like have human sacrifice in mind when she spoke of religious traditions being respected. I'll wager she was merely talking about different representations of the divine in different cultures. It is mainly you who is trotting out the Aztecs and their supposed practices.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Sep 27, 2006 12:00 AM
78
Varun Shekhar writes:

>>Yes, who is to say that the Aztecs in time wouldn't have given up on human sacrifices( I'm going to assume that they actually did, and that's it's not a fairy tale) and merely concentrated on reverence to the divine.

I am having fun watching these weenies twist in the wind. Aztecs dramatically illustrate the folly of the monk's claim. It is typical for too many Indians to embrace non-sensical bunk like the monk's for no rigorous reason other than it "sounds" tolerant on its surface.

The endemic intellectual laziness in too many Indians prevents a critical examination of the monk's claim. The endemic mental indiscipline takes the conversation in all directions including a hilarious rendition of middle age history that has no bearing to the monk's claim that "...that every religious and spiritual tradition is...sacred...and that they have a right to exist without being denigrated or extinguished..."

A simple example of Aztecs refuting the monk's claim results in 13 pages of gibberish nonsense.


Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 27, 2006 12:00 AM
77

Yes, who is to say that the Aztecs in time wouldn't have given up on human sacrifices( I'm going to assume that they actually did, and that's it's not a fairy tale) and merely concentrated on reverence to the divine. In the middle ages, Christians killed, burned, raped, hanged, tortured on the rack untold millions of people, and caused the deaths of even more millions in wars, all in the name of God, often citing God as justification. Meanwhile, the Aztecs, who are extinct( thanks to those selfsame Chritians!) are supposed to be some real nasties because they *may* have sacrificed a few thousand war captives every year. This is something they supposedly did from time immemorial and would have continued to do indefinitely, without the help of the peaceful, benign Christians. Uh..thanks but no thanks!
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
76

"It called arguing to a conclusion and answering every relevant objection."

"I showed such a principle is not only untenable but also undesirable."

So what is the point of harping on the Aztecs and their human sacrifices when, I am sure, no representative of the Aztec religion turned up at the Pope's palace? Those chaps are dead and gone, their civilisation wiped out (as I keep on repating).

It would have been relevant if you could have shown that "such a principle" is tenable if you could have referred to "existing religions".

"I have no interest in respecting, dialoguing or mutually respecting and peacefully coexisting with the Aztecs. "

Good that they are dead. Otherwise they would have been shattered after hearing this.

"Their religious beliefs turns human beings into goats. The principle that humans cannot be sacrificed like goats is more important than respecting Aztec religious belief or dialoguing, mutually respecting or peacefully co-existing with Aztecs."

But you have respect for the Christian religious beliefs where paedophile priests are defended and protected, where people are excommunicated when they perform abortions on rape victims, where people believe that the Earth is at the center of the universe - and the sun scrambles to the place from where he rises. (go on accuse me of "straying from the point")


"Now, let's look around and see who else sacrifices human lives, perhaps not physically but in other ways."

Why not "physical"? Are you afraid that the topic would shift to altar boys and paedophile priests?
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
75
Mac says

"That’s your argument…not the monk’s. She argues “all” without limiting it to existing. Your slight modification won't save it either."


"The alive or extinct status of a civilization doesn't affect whether "all" should be respected and "not denigrated.""

"If you don’t see a connotation of “respect” that comes with “sacred” and “right…without being denigrated..” you have the poverty imagination of a low-level clerk in an Indian government office."

Well, talk about double standards.

As per Mac, if the monk said "All" it means existing and extinct religions. If the assumption is that the monk is referring to existing religions only, this connotation is worng.

However, he does not hesitate to add "respect" as a connotation to "sacred" & "right".

When we say "Rights" of all people should be respected, does that mean "rights" of dead people too? But dead people do not have any rights do they?

Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
74
We needn't go beyond the American late night shows. My email box has been jammed with gems:

"Radical Muslims are still angry at the Pope. They say the Pope insulted a whole people and their religion. Then they went back to calling for the destruction of Israel and killing everyone." --Jay Leno


"There's a lot of tension in the world. Over the weekend, Pope Benedict apologized to the Muslims. Altar boys, on the other hand, are still waiting for their apology." --David Letterman

"The Vatican has increased protection around the Pope. How ironic is that -- A Catholic using protection?" --Jay Leno

"In the West Bank a group calling itself the Lions of Monotheism fire bombed four churches, telling the Associated Press the attacks were carried out to protest the Pope's remarks linking Islam and violence. The irony of the statement, and this is often the case we find, was lost on them." --Jon Stewart

"Muslims all over the world are rioting because they are upset with the Pope. Again, I don't think President Bush understands these issues. Like today, he said, 'These Muslims, why can't they ask themselves what would Jesus do?'" --Jay Leno
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
73
Mac says:"Anyone who is a sloppy thinker is my enemy."

Then the Pope should be your enemy. He did show some sloppy thinking by making that comment in his speech - the proverbial waving of a red cloth in the bull's face.


"Anyone who disregards facts is my enemy."

Then the Vatican should be your enemy. Their defence of their paedophile priests shows their disregard of facts.

"Anyone who thinks humans have no inherent value is my enemy."

Again, the church should be your enemy. After all those crusades where they displayed their contempt for "inherent human value".

"Anyone who coercively limits human potential is my enemy."

Again, the church should be your enemy. After all, they ex-communicate people who do "unchristian" things, though they may be a right thing to do.
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
72
>>>Lewis Carroll wrote a book titled "Alice in Wonderland" satirizing this tendency where words have no shared meaning.

I shall write another book called "Old Mac in Wonderville", where wrds have only ONE meaning - that which Old Mac assigns to them.

>>>Instead, we have to operate on monk's private definition of "religion"

A "private" definition only in the sense of not immediately explicit. The actual definition is likely shared by millions.

>>>(which she left conveniently undefined)

If we stopped to define every word we use, we'd never get through a sentence.

>>>that could be evolving by the minute.

How dare it! If it didn't evolve, we could make the word religion "cease to exist"!

>>>In which case, one person communicating with another is practicaly impossible.

Your inability to communicate with the monk is not so much a result of the multifarious meanings of the word "religion", as of your efforts to refute something she didn't say, by saying she said it.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
71
Anil writes:

>>Learn to pick your enemies, man.

Anyone who is a sloppy thinker is my enemy. Anyone who disregards facts is my enemy. Anyone who thinks humans have no inherent value is my enemy. Anyone who coercively limits human potential is my enemy.

What avatars they come under is inconsequential.

>>The Hindus deserve criticism, but it's no good pretending they are as serious a threat to reason, democracy and life and limb as the Muslim totalitarians. You seem to forget this.

Whoever it is at the receiving end, it has to be based on a theory...not the reflexive anxiety of a given moment.

>>It's far easier to live in peace with Hindus than with Muslims. State this and then criticise us as you please. All this stuff about benighted pagans is a lilltle outdated. Freedom owes more to pagans than Abrahamic totalitarians.

I can distinguish an argument and a conclusion from a mile away. You have to do better than that.

Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
70
Chanayka writes:

>>>>"That's his problem...not mine. I am only interested in proving the monk's point as untenable."

>>Yes, by getting stuck on a point. There is a difference between "sticking to a point" and "getting stuck on a point"

It called arguing to a conclusion and answering every relevant objection. So, as it stands, the monk argued "that every religious and spiritual tradition is as sacred as Christianity, and that they have a right to exist without being denigrated or extinguished, it will greatly serve the interests of dialogue, mutual respect, and peaceful coexistence"

I showed such a principle is not only untenable but also undesirable. For I have no interest in respecting, dialoguing or mutually respecting and peacefully coexisting with the Aztecs. Their religious beliefs turns human beings into goats. The principle that humans cannot be sacrificed like goats is more important than respecting Aztec religious belief or dialoguing, mutually respecting or peacefully co-existing with Aztecs. In short, the monk is bunk.

Now, let's look around and see who else sacrifices human lives, perhaps not physically but in other ways.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
69
"Crimes were committed in the name of Christ but we have apologised,Personally I would like to hear an apology from them for all that happened. Christians too have been victimised."
which medival past is the father talking of? why cant religious leaders learn to live in the 21st century? accept the reality of the present? what does he want now? avenge the crimes on christianity by slaughtering the muslims? crazy!! no one seems to think that christian or muslim the person being killed is first a human being!
ameetbhuvan
bhubaneswar, India
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
68
Sundari writes:

>>That's your addition to what she said. She just said "all religions have a right to exist". She could well have had a notion of "religion" in mind that is changing and evolving in a self-regulated way. Given that you don't know what notion of religion she had in mind, any "refutation" of something she didn't say, is a case of tilting at windmills.

Lewis Carroll wrote a book titled "Alice in Wonderland" satirizing this tendency where words have no shared meaning. Instead, we have to operate on monk's private definition of "religion" (which she left conveniently undefined) that could be evolving by the minute. In which case, one person communicating with another is practicaly impossible.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
67
Old Mac:

Learn to pick your enemies, man. The Hindus deserve criticism, but it's no good pretending they are as serious a threat to reason, democracy and life and limb as the Muslim totalitarians. You seem to forget this. It's far easier to live in peace with Hindus than with Muslims. State this and then criticise us as you please. All this stuff about benighted pagans is a lilltle outdated. Freedom owes more to pagans than Abrahamic totalitarians.
Anil Narlikar
Pune, India
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
66
Mac says>>> "Aztecs merely serve as a concrete example to test the monk's claim."

Just one extinct religion being quoted to justify a false claim of superiority.

On the other hand, we can also quote the paedophilia by some of the catholic priests repeatedly to claim that the Catholic priesthood is devoid of any morality - from Vatican downwards.

>>> "It's about whether every guy's "sacred" beliefs have to be respected and not denigrated at the outset without more. That is what the monk argues."

It is as general as a statement as calling the Pope "Papa" or the reverends "fathers". Now taken literally, it would mean that the "good fathers" were visiting the houses of all christians and sowing "wild oats".

>>> "The alive or extinct status of a civilization doesn't affect whether "all" should be respected and "not denigrated."

See above.

>>> "That's his problem...not mine. I am only interested in proving the monk's point as untenable."

Yes, by getting stuck on a point. There is a difference between "sticking to a point" and "getting stuck on a point"

>>>"Somehow he manages to affect the world"

A madman who throws stones at passers-by too affects the world. So do our good friends from the Al-Q.

>>>"You would be hard pressed to argue that is their “sacred” beliefs."

From Wikipedia:


******************************************
**************************************************
**************************************************
**
"Modern geocentrists point to some passages in the Bible, which, when taken literally, indicate that the daily apparent motions of the Sun and the Moon are due to their actual motions around the Earth rather than due to the rotation of the Earth about its axis. One is Ecclesiastes 1:5:

The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose. "

Alexander VII, in a Papal Bull declared that "the Pythagorean doctrine concerning the mobility of the earth and the immobility of the sun is false and altogether incompatible with divine Scripture" and the principles advocated by Copernicus on the position and movement of the earth to be “repugnant to Scripture and to its true and Catholic interpretation".

These declarations have yet to be officially overturned by the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church, and there have been no official declarations on the subject since.
.
*********************************************
**************************************************
**************************************************
*******

The fact that the Vatican has, to-date, not oevrturned these declarations shows that "geo-centrism" is a "sacred belief" and "position and movement of the earth" are against the "true catholic interpretation of the scripture".
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
65
Mac says: ""Let me see if I can muster up a tear....after all 20,000 people sacrificed in a four day period to satisfy their sun god can be transformed into something acceptable given a "proper" context"

In the same wikipedia (that Mac quotes as gospel truth) the following appears

"For the reconsecration of Great Pyramid of Tenochtitlan in 1487, the Aztecs reported that they sacrificed about 84,400 prisoners over the course of four days [verification needed]. This report is hardly credible, not only because it would mean almost 15 sacrifices per minute for 24 hours a day, but also because the city of Tenochtitlan itself had an estimated population of only 80,000 to 120,000 in that time. The rate of 15 sacrifices a minute might have been possible if there had been a team of priests sacrificing the 84,400 but it's even less credible if we credit the report that Ahuitzotl performed the sacrifices himself. As a comparison, the Auschwitz concentration camp, working 24 hours a day with modern technology, approached but did not equal this pace: it executed about 19,200 a day at its peak.[citation needed]"
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
64
OLD MACAQUE REWRITES CHRISTIANITY
>> Your Christian friends too hung onto the idea that the Earth was flat and that the Earth was at the center of the universe. So did they stop being christians when they "improved and abandoned" this idea?

"You would be hard pressed to argue that is their “sacred” beliefs"

Well a certain Galileo was barred from teaching and discussing his belief in round earth and the solar system. When he persisted in his writings he was put under house arrest for the rest of his life. That is a lot of trouble for a 'peripheral' issue.

"Let me see if I can muster up a tear....after all 20,000 people sacrificed in a four day period to satisfy their sun god can be transformed into something acceptable given a "proper" context"

At the last count more than 60 million were wiped out in the Americas to ostensibly save 20 thousand. But if Aztecs were eliminated for human sacrifice to the Sun God , what were the Incas, the Pueblo, the Ixtalans, the Choctaws, the Mohawks etc etc eliminated for, perhaps for not believing in the Son of God and also for being in the general neighbourhood.
The problem now that remains is , why were the Aborigines of Australia and The Maoris eliminated , perhaps for not being in the right neighbourhood.

Old Macaque instead of looking for all kinds of convoluted arguments would not it be easier to simply say the lovers of Son of God are always right. Period.
vikas ranjan
gurgaon, India
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
63
Sundari writes:

>>>>As long as you disavow "relativism" as untenable, I will have made my point.

>>I'm not interested in testifying at the Inquisition.

You probably would be excused for lack of mental capacity.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
62
>>A good example of the difference in eastern and western notions of sacred.

You can't talk about "notions of sacred" without first understanding that "sacred", in its English usage (the monk's) means "religious". All religions are religious. A tautology.

>>>She said "all religions have a right to exist" and she said it with no qualification...including if the Aztecs insisted on continuing human sacrifice

That's your addition to what she said. She just said "all religions have a right to exist". She could well have had a notion of "religion" in mind that is changing and evolving in a self-regulated way. Given that you don't know what notion of religion she had in mind, any "refutation" of something she didn't say, is a case of tilting at windmills.

Sundari
Chennai, India
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
61
Sundari writes:

>>>>The monk made no such point.

>>Yes, she did. She said "all religions have a right to exist"

and she said it with no qualification...including if the Aztecs insisted on continuing human sacrifice..

>>They were sacred, as in religious, and religiously inspired, to the religious folks who carried them out.

So washing your ass with left hand is deemed sacred too because that practice is necessary implication of religious rules over pollution? For that is the impact of your elastic definition?
A good example of the difference in eastern and western notions of sacred.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
60
>>>As if detailed first hand knowledge of Aztec beliefs is somehow going to sandpaper human sacrifice.

Given that an invading power, known for fierce and bloody religious intolerance only recently, and interested in demonizing and wiping out the Aztecs for various reasons, provide the only source of knowledge on the Aztecs, I'd take the WHOLE thing with a huge grain of salt.

But I'm all for hearing you talk about human sacrifice as a central concept in Christianity, as one of its central beliefs, borne out by several hundred years of crusading, and contunuing ideas about holy war.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
59
Sundari writes:

>>The monk is saying that all religions have a right to exist. She isn't talking about individual beliefs - obviously she knows that those are always changing without a religion "ceasing to exist".

And I am saying that Aztec religion (with human sacrifice) should have all the benefits of the monk's argument, if it were true.

>>Whether or not this was central, what "centrality" meant, whether the Aztecs thought that the Aztec religion would outlive the end of the world, and whether or not the mode of extraction of human blood was significant are all questions now lost to history,

As if detailed first hand knowledge of Aztec beliefs is somehow going to sandpaper human sacrifice.

>>given that only by the "bigot" side of the "bigots and Indians" interaction, recorded the Aztecs' beliefs.

Let me see if I can muster up a tear....after all 20,000 people sacrificed in a four day period to satisfy their sun god can be transformed into something acceptable given a "proper" context.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
58
>>>As long as you disavow "relativism" as untenable, I will have made my point.

I'm not interested in testifying at the Inquisition.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
57
>>>If you don’t see a connotation of “respect” that comes with “sacred” and “right…without being denigrated..”

The connotation is yours, based on your preconceptions of what you think Hindu monks say. In this case, the monk doesn't say "respect", just says all religions are sacred, and well - religious. Both statements are tautologies.

>>>The monk made no such point.

Yes, she did. She said "all religions have a right to exist"

>>>That proves that Salem Witch Hunts, resulting in 20 total deaths, as hardly sacred.

They were sacred, as in religious, and religiously inspired, to the religious folks who carried them out. Despite the fact that you no longer "respect" their beliefs, you do recognize that Christianity had a right to exist at that point in time.

>>>Even then, human sacrifice was a central belief in Aztec religion

Depends on definitions of centrality all around, and who recorded this "centrality" as a "fact".
Sundari
Chennai, India
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
56
Sundari writes:

>>>>relativism is your starting point

>>Its so tiresome when people suggest that tolerance of religious diversity is somehow the same thing as "relativism".

As long as you disavow "relativism" as untenable, I will have made my point.

>>Tolerance of religious diversity is a well-developed philosophical concept in and of itself - it is not the same as an absence of moral standards.

It is not just a philosphical concept but a moral imperative...but tolerance doesn't mean immunity from criticism either. However, true relativism means abandonment of moral standards. And that is the my point.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
55
Sundari writes:

>>>>Major Premise (monk's argument): "If the Vatican could understand that every religious and spiritual tradition is as sacred as Christianity, and that they have a right to exist without being denigrated or extinguished..

>>I don't see the word "respect" in what she said.

If you don’t see a connotation of “respect” that comes with “sacred” and “right…without being denigrated..” you have the poverty imagination of a low-level clerk in an Indian government office.

>>As far as the monk's position on human sacrifice, she should be asked specifically.

Given her starting position, the monk can't except human sacrifice if it is indeed “sacred.”

>>Given that Christians were burning witches about the same time Aztecs were allegedly performing human sacrifices, its difficult to judge the case for moral superiority here. In any case, Christianity has since stopped burning witches WITHOUT ceasing to exist.

That proves that Salem Witch Hunts, resulting in 20 total deaths, as hardly sacred. Because if it were, it would have happened more places than just Salem, Massachusetts for a brief time.

>>So, the monk has a point that entire religions need not be extinguished because of their state at a point in time.

The monk made no such point. You are making that point. Even then, human sacrifice was a central belief in Aztec religion….no way to get around it. If they abandoned it, they would stop being Aztecs.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
54
>>It's about whether every guy's "sacred" beliefs have to be respected and not denigrated at the outset without more. That is what the monk argues.

The monk is saying that all religions have a right to exist. She isn't talking about individual beliefs - obviously she knows that those are always changing without a religion "ceasing to exist".

>>>However, the Aztecs religion was based on the premise that sun god demanded human blood for the world to continue.

Whether or not this was central, what "centrality" meant, whether the Aztecs thought that the Aztec religion would outlive the end of the world, and whether or not the mode of extraction of human blood was significant are all questions now lost to history, given that only by the "bigot" side of the "bigots and Indians" interaction, recorded the Aztecs' beliefs.

But if the question is "human sacrifice" - all religious groups believe in a form of this - the Crusaders certainly did.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
53
Chanakya writes:

>>Looks like Mac wants the entire argument to run with the Aztec practices as a reference point.

Aztecs merely serve as a concrete example to test the monk's claim.

>>Good enough. If he has to justify the wiping out of a civilisation, then he can only do so if he shows the other guys as real bad guys.

It's about whether every guy's "sacred" beliefs have to be respected and not denigrated at the outset without more. That is what the monk argues.

>>The Aztecs may have been extremely cruel and have sacrificed humans in the most gory manner. Probably their traditions did not deserve "respect". Again fair enough.

I rest my case. The monk's argument is bunk. So, that cannot be the starting point.

>>But that civilisation and race have been wiped out.

Irrelevant to the issue under discussion.

>>When the "monk" is talking about respect for other spiritual and religious traditions, the major premise would be that respect should be extended to existing religions and their spiritual practices.

That’s your argument…not the monk’s. She argues “all” without limiting it to existing. Your slight modification won't save it either.

>>No one would give a damn if the Pope spoke derogatorily about the Aztecs or Mayans or the Greek or Roman or Egyptian civilisations. These civilisations are extinct.

The alive or extinct status of a civilization doesn't affect whether "all" should be respected and "not denigrated."

>>But he better be respectful of the religions existing today and their traditions. Otherwise, there would be a very heavy price for him to pay.

That's his problem...not mine. I am only interested in proving the monk's point as untenable.

>>He neither has the divisions nor the moral authority.

Somehow he manages to affect the world

>> Your Christian friends too hung onto the idea that the Earth was flat and that the Earth was at the center of the universe. So did they stop being christians when they "improved and abandoned" this idea?

You would be hard pressed to argue that is their “sacred” beliefs.

>>Hindus believed that the eclipses were when the cosmic snakes Rahu & Ketu swallowed the Sun and the Moon - so did they stop being Hindus when they abandoned this myth in lieu of a scientific explanantion?

Only if their entire worldview was built on that premise as a fact….However, the Aztecs religion was based on the premise that sun god demanded human blood for the world to continue.

Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
52
>>relativism is your starting point

Its so tiresome when people suggest that tolerance of religious diversity is somehow the same thing as "relativism". Tolerance of religious diversity is a well-developed philosophical concept in and of itself - it is not the same as an absence of moral standards. Get a grip, Old Mac!
Sundari
Chennai, India
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
51
>>>Major Premise (monk's argument): "If the Vatican could understand that every religious and spiritual tradition is as sacred as Christianity, and that they have a right to exist without being denigrated or extinguished..

I don't see the word "respect" in what she said.

She says, every religious and spiritual tradition is as sacred as Christianity. That is almost a tautology, that nobody could deny. The nature of "religious" and "spiritual" traditions is to be "sacred". The three words are near-synonyms.

She's saying - whatever you may think of religions, all religions are religions, and are to those who practice them, what Christianity is to you. Again, an almost tautological proposition.

As far as the monk's position on human sacrifice, she should be asked specifically.

Given that Christians were burning witches about the same time Aztecs were allegedly performing human sacrifices, its difficult to judge the case for moral superiority here.

In any case, Christianity has since stopped burning witches WITHOUT ceasing to exist. So, the monk has a point that entire religions need not be extinguished because of their state at a point in time.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
50
Bharath, as I've told you before, take some valium and get some rest, perhaps see a shrink. Are you aware that you sound like a crazy old coot?

I have no desire to meet you or visit Chicago, thanks.

The scary thing is, this guy sounds influential - either that, or he suffers from some debilitating mental illness.

I suspect its the latter.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
49
old mac
but you are required to not only condone them but also respect them as part of "every" spritual and religious tradition...by the monk's standard.

if you disagree with the monk, you should be equally critical of christianity which burned heretics as a part of their religious practice.

No one is asking you to condone anything. But an absolute standard requires the renunciation of a relative one.

by that absolute standard, christianity is morally decadent (not withstanding that they have given up such a practice. may be even aztecs would have).

But you can't do that if relativism is your starting point...but to add the nuance of degree, when judging two killers: one who kills one person and another that kills a 1000 people. You want to maintain moral equivalency between the two even then?

when the motive is like that of church, the body count doesnt matter. if needed, the church wouldnt have hesitated to kill 10000.

Of course they do. However, improvement only comes by abandoning their core beliefs that sun god lives on human blood in a 52 year cycle. And without such sacrifices, the world would come to any end. In other words, they stop being Aztecs.

that christians and church dont burn witches any more doesnt make them any less christian.
bhushan
richmond, United States
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
48
The famous Philadelphia Case of 2005:

Link:
http://cbs3.com/topstor...al_story_264112211.html


Some
excerpts:

*********************************
***********************************
Among the examples of abuse cited in the report:


An 11-year-old girl was raped and impregnated by a priest, who took her for an abortion

A fifth-grade girl was molested by a priest inside the confessional booth

A boy woke up intoxicated in a priest’s bed to find the priest performing oral sex on him as three other priests watched and masturbated

A priest falsely told a 12-year-old boy that the child’s mother knew he was being raped repeatedly by the priest, and allowed
it.

***************************************
***********************

The Aztecs who performed human sacrifices are dead and gone - their civilisation was wiped out.

These "padres" continue to hang on to their "habits" (both connotations). So much for a religion that claims that "it is truer than others".
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
47
Link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1...es/panorama/3180406.stm


Some quotes from the story:

"The country's bishops also wrote an open letter to the government asking whether there was any real difference between abortion and suicide bombings."

(the abortion here is of a rape-caused pregnancy).

"If this child had the misfortune to be raped by someone, and then became pregnant, it is always possible, according to doctors who are experts in this field, to save both lives."

"Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, told Panorama: "I have followed these events personally. I have written to the Cardinal personally to express to him in all sincerity my support, because public opinion was quite confused with regard to that case. "
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
46
"Rebellion forces Vatican u-turn in child rape case"

Link:
http://www.guardian.co....story/0,,909061,00.html


This story happened in March 2003.

The Church back-tracked then. Wonder what happened to its "moral absolutism". I guess, faced with losing some of its "sheep" the church did a quick "cost-benefit" analysis and decided to adopt "moral relativism".

But its a pity that they did not learn from their mistakes.
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
45
This is a pathetic example of the "moral absolutism that Mac is propogating:


"A Vatican official has said the Catholic church will excommunicate a medical team who performed Colombia's first legal abortion on an 11-year-old girl, who was eight weeks pregnant after being raped by her stepfather.

Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, the president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, said in addition to the doctors and nurses, the measure could apply to "relatives, politicians and lawmakers" whom he called "protagonists in this abominable crime".


For the rest of the article, the link is :
http://www.guardian.co....tory/0,,1861532,00.html

Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
44
It is easy to understand why Mac is so rattled.

The world is slowly realising the supreme arrogance of the Church that makes it claim that Christianity is the only superior religion and that other religions deserve no respect.

Some joker says" "But then it becomes a nonsense if we say all religions are true."

That in itself shows how bigoted some of the members of the church are.

And the fact that Mac continues to support this bigoted ideology of "my religion ifs truer than yours" shows that he is a true-blue evangelical racist - like I said a few days ago.

Anyway, like I said a few days ago (again), When thieves quarrel, good men win. Let the Pope fight it out with the "peaceful" religion's believers.

Incidentally, there is a chap called Matt Ryan who has used similar arguments (Aztecs vs Catholic Church) to condemn "moral relativism". Is this chap Mac's twin or soul mate?
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
43
Looks like Mac wants the entire argument to run with the Aztec practices as a reference point.

Good enough. If he has to justify the wiping out of a civilisation, then he can only do so if he shows the other guys as real bad guys.

The Aztecs may have been extremely cruel and have sacrificed humans in the most gory manner.

Probably their traditions did not deserve "respect". Again fair enough. But that civilisation and race have been wiped out.

When the "monk" is talking about respect for other spiritual and religious traditions, the major premise would be that respect should be extended to existing religions and their spiritual practices.

No one would give a damn if the Pope spoke derogatorily about the Aztecs or Mayans or the Greek or Roman or Egyptian civilisations. These civilisations are extinct.

But he better be respectful of the religions existing today and their traditions. Otherwise, there would be a very heavy price for him to pay. He neither has the divisions nor the moral authority.

Mac says >>> "However, improvement only comes by abandoning their core beliefs that sun god lives on human blood in a 52 year cycle. And without such sacrifices, the world would come to any end. In other words, they stop being Aztecs."

Your Christian friends too hung onto the idea that the Earth was flat and that the Earth was at the center of the universe.

So did they stop being christians when they "improved and abandoned" this idea?

Hindus believed that the eclipses were when the cosmic snakes Rahu & Ketu swallowed the Sun and the Moon - so did they stop being Hindus when they abandoned this myth in lieu of a scientific explanantion?
Chanakya
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
42
I think it is a bit silly debating fundamental of religions and which religion is better as far as scriptures, ritual practices etc. are concerned. I feel it is perfectly legitimate to discuss the religious input to social, economic and political behavior of the followers in the present world. Since this sacrifice debate is going on I think it is better for Christians not to say someone else is bad because they indulge in human sacrifice. The basic premise of Christianity is that God himself sacrificed his human son Jesus Christ for the salvation of the world. If Christian God agrees to human sacrifice and such a practice is perfectly acceptable to him, why blame some Aztecs who also divined that their God also liked human sacrifices. By criticising Aztecs no funademental moral principles are proved other than Christians claiming their God is better (inspite of his human sacrifice) than Aztec god. Well, all religions have the right to offer better gods and better, and more effective paths to salvation.
Akhil
Chicago, United States
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
41
Bhushan writes:

>>>>How about a frame of reference of right and wrong?

>>perfectly fair. i never condoned the aztec practices.

but you are required to not only condone them but also respect them as part of "every" spritual and religious tradition...by the monk's standard.

>>only that i am not willing to condoen the christian killings either.

No one is asking you to condone anything. But an absolute standard requires the renunciation of a relative one.

>>actually i shoudl say, not willing to consider one killing morally less henious than the other.

But you can't do that if relativism is your starting point...but to add the nuance of degree, when judging two killers: one who kills one person and another that kills a 1000 people. You want to maintain moral equivalency between the two even then?

>>according to you...aztecs had no scope for improvement? you just prove my point of you being biased.

Of course they do. However, improvement only comes by abandoning their core beliefs that sun god lives on human blood in a 52 year cycle. And without such sacrifices, the world would come to any end. In other words, they stop being Aztecs.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
40
Sundari writes:

>>>>The monk argues for a principle that demands such acts be "respected" and "not denigrated."

>>Where did the monk say that?!

Major Premise (monk's argument): "If the Vatican could understand that every religious and spiritual tradition is as sacred as Christianity, and that they have a right to exist without being denigrated or extinguished..."

Minor Premise: Aztecs' practice of human sacrifice is part of their "religious and spiritual tradition..."

Minor Premise: Aztecs' tradition is part of "every" religious and spirtual tradition.

Conclusion: Aztecs' practice of human sacrifice must be understood as "...sacred...and...have a right to exist without being denigrated or extinguished..."

The humble contribution of Aristotlean logic.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
39
old mac
To each other...
in that case why one form of killing less disgusting than the other?

This is what happens when relativism goes amok...in which you can't even condemn human sacrifice. Although, I am amused at your ability to implicitly condemn witch burning on some mysterious criteria...

no i am condemning all types of killings. i am not being selective (whcih you perhaps are being).
human sacrifice - whether to please the gods or to retain power in the name of god are equally disgusting to me. that is why i am not for superiority of one killing faith over another.

If so, why isn't it being carried out on modern witches?

if only the aztecs had been allowed to live on.. they most likely would not have performed human sacrifices and indulged in cannibalism. reformed just like the christians have.

Your school boy sophistry cannot mask even basic ignorance of Aztec religious beliefs not to mention elementary reasoning

should i say your deliberate consideration of christian murders less henious than aztec ones does not mask your arrogance and belief in "i am superior" ideology

If so, you shouldn't be bellyaching about Muslim conquest of India...but never took you for a marxist, however. Suit yourself.

conquest is different from killing of captives. however, the muslim massacres were exactly that- examples for others.
and that is an ideology i dislike.

And that includes human sacrifice and cannibalism? If so, what's to sneer about witch burning?


no. my point was, if killing is your criterion for weighing moral superiority/inferiority, then why is killing for gods worse than killing in the name of gods.
i find both equally reprehensible.

How about a frame of reference of right and wrong?

perfectly fair. i never condoned the aztec practices. only that i am not willing to condoen the christian killings either. actually i shoudl say, not willing to consider one killing morally less henious than the other.

They probably roast your nuts as dessert for the sun god.

according to you, unlike the our christian buddies, aztecs had no scope for improvement? you just prove my point of you being biased.
bhushan
richmond, United States
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
38
>>> The monk argues for a principle that demands such acts be "respected" and "not denigrated."

Where did the monk say that?!
Sundari
Chennai, India
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
37
Bhushan writes:

>>equality of dignity and respect relative to who or what?

To each other...

>>if it is the christian idea of dignity and respect you mean, based on their practices, then my question - how and why should the aztec idea be any less equal to the christian one?

This is what happens when relativism goes amok...in which you can't even condemn human sacrifice. Although, I am amused at your ability to implicitly condemn witch burning on some mysterious criteria...

>>the issue is when such acts are mandated by religious beliefs they were only as much mandated by religious beliefs as the witch burning and heretic hunting.

If so, why isn't it being carried out on modern witches? Your school boy sophistry cannot mask even basic ignorance of Aztec religious beliefs not to mention elementary reasoning.

>>doesnt it all look like perpetuation of position and power by setting examples of the captured opponents.

If so, you shouldn't be bellyaching about Muslim conquest of India...but never took you for a marxist, however. Suit yourself.

>>how directly do you want it? all faiths deserve equal respect. if not, it is simply a case of might is right.

And that includes human sacrifice and cannibalism? If so, what's to sneer about witch burning?

>>who decides the frame of reference? christians?

How about a frame of reference of right and wrong?

>>If only we could have asked the aztecs the same set of question concerning moral equality.

They probably roast your nuts as dessert for the sun god.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
36
old mac
...of whether Aztec religion involving human sacrifice can claim to "equality" of dignity and respect based on the monk's argument."


equality of dignity and respect relative to who or what? if it is the christian idea of dignity and respect you mean, based on their practices,
then my question - how and why should the aztec idea be any less equal to the christian one?

the issue is when such acts are mandated by religious beliefs
they were only as much mandated by religious beliefs as the witch burning and heretic hunting.
doesnt it all look like perpetuation of position and power by setting examples of the captured opponents.

You concede the point by not engaging it directly and instead distract with irrelevancies to the discussion.

how directly do you want it?
all faiths deserve equal respect. if not, it is simply a case of might is right.


Perhaps. But, that is irrelevant to the point of discussion: "equal" respect and "not denegrate" ALL religious beliefs

who decides the frame of reference? christians? if only we could have asked the aztecs the same set of question concerning moral
equality.


BR>
bhushan
richmond, United States
Sep 26, 2006 12:00 AM
35
Bhushan writes:

>>>>old mac you attempt to be slippery in avoiding the issue of whether Aztec religion involving human sacrifice can claim to "equality" of dignity and respect based on the monk's argument."

>>two things.. firstly, aztecs morality behind sacrificing their human enemies is no different from and inferior to the christian morality behind burning on stakes and impaling the heretics and witches.

As usual, you too want to avoid the issue. I would like to think that you are merely dodging the issue instead of being stupid. It doesn't matter if the facts are Aztec human sacrifice, thuggee cult of Kali or Cannabalistic tribals in Java or Borneo...the issue is when such acts are mandated by religious beliefs, must those religions be accorded respect and not denigrated? The monk argues for a principle that demands such acts be "respected" and "not denigrated."

You won't get anywhere with me by talking circles about Aztec human sacrifices or Salem witch burnings. You concede the point by not engaging it directly and instead distract with irrelevancies to the discussion.

>>secondly whatever they did, they did in their own land, nation, whatever u call it.

With enough Virginia tobacco, you could convince yourself the relevance of such statement to the issue under discussion.

>>spaniards had no claim to a superior moral authority justifying the killing of aztecs.

Perhaps. But, that is irrelevant to the point of discussion: "equal" respect and "not denegrate" ALL religious beliefs.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 25, 2006 12:00 AM
34
I still think it is unfortunate that the Pope - clearly to avoid more Christians being murdered in far off places (rather than out of conviction) - has to do all this.

Let's admit that Muslim clerics and self-appointed defenders of the faith get away with much bigger "insults".

The threat of violence is only a temporarily effective way to prevent critique. In the long run, it just pisses people off and makes them turn against Muslims.

Rather than pointing fingers at the Pope, I honestly think Muslim clerics should teach their flock the virtues of patience and tolerance, and of responding in a calm and *principled* way to such things.

That would create a MUCH better impression on the world public than these constant threats of violence, whenever people speak their mind.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Sep 25, 2006 12:00 AM
33
old mac you attempt to be slippery in avoiding the issue of whether Aztec religion involving human sacrifice can claim to "equality" of dignity and respect based on the monk's argument."

two things.. firstly, aztecs morality behind sacrificing their human enemies is no different from and inferior to the christian morality behind burning on stakes and impaling the heretics and witches.

secondly whatever they did, they did in their own land, nation, whatever u call it.

spaniards had no claim to a superior moral authority justifying the killing of aztecs.

bhushan
richmond, United States
Sep 25, 2006 12:00 AM
32
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Sep 25, 2006 12:00 AM
31
Very simply , as far as Islam is concerned, all others are 'kaffirs' .Your average White Westerner can protest till he or she is blue in the face that he or she is not Christian but Aetheists/
Agnostics/Hedonists/Paedophiles/Hindus/Buddhists/A
nimists -or whatever.

Makes no difference - to Islam they are all Christians , and therefore fair game.

The virulent reaction by Muslims all over the world to something the Pope never did say or imply in the first place , certainly does not disprove the oft trotted out litany that Islam is a religion of peace- as a Western commentator ever so delicately put it.
Ranjith Thomas
Calcutta, India
Sep 25, 2006 12:00 AM
30
P.S. TO POST-

The native Americans still asking for justice

http://bullsburning.itg...m/essays/NCROct2000.htm
vikas ranjan
gurgaon, India
Sep 25, 2006 12:00 AM
29
CORRECTION TO POST-
This is where one finds the 'World According to the Pope'

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/all.htm
vikas ranjan
gurgaon, India
Sep 25, 2006 12:00 AM
28
OLD MACAQUE
"Having been heavily invested in a demonology involving the Spanish (and by extension Western) conquest of the Americas, you attempt to be slippery in avoiding the issue of whether Aztec religion involving human sacrifice can claim to "equality" of dignity and respect based on the monk's argument."

The Aztecs indulged in human sacrifice ( assuming that our Christian Brothers writing this 'History' are telling the truth) to please their Gods , at the same time our Christian Brothers were also burning heretics and devil worsippers at the stake to please their God and his Supreme Pontiff on Earth, so it would seem that only the method of the sacrifice was different ( cutting out the heart v/s burning) and not the practice or the motivation behind it.

And yes, I do not believe one needs to Demonise Christianity, the Papal Encyclicals and the Spanish Proclamation read dispassionately are sufficient evidence of the evil nature of its practitioners.

http://outlookindia.com.../2006&type=normal&pn=11

http://www.hacer.org/pdf/Roots.pdf
vikas ranjan
gurgaon, India
Sep 25, 2006 12:00 AM
27
The foray into Aztec human sacrifice to explore the proposition that all religious beliefs are "equal" in dignity etc. illustrates why discussing issues in India is so frustrating...no issue is ever discussed to some kind of conclusion...no matter how tentative.

You have one goof ball who wants to talk about Spanish conquest of the Americas and the unreliability of historiography of that event as if they are pertinent to the topic.

Another takes the conversation in the direction of Wikipedia and its reliability.

No wonder the country is like a jeep stuck in the mud in rainy season with its wheels spinning. Everyone wants to introduce irrelevant and extraneous side matters to a discussion topic at hand. This general lack of discipline in thinking and failing to stay on point is utterly depressing.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 25, 2006 12:00 AM
26
Sundari writes:

>>The difference is not as "gaping" as Old Mac breathlessly suggests (communicating an underlying anxiety about the fact that the monk actually makes sense).

I am as anxious about this monk as I am about the sun rising in the West. Here’s a phrase to add to your repertoire…..cool as a cucumber…a more apt description of my mental state.

>>The Pope is upset over secular *governance* - Church arguments against secular governance have always performed the cunning feint of suggesting that it banishes "spirituality" from human life - thus the equation of secular governance with secular philosophy has an all-European history older than the Hindu monk you want to beat up on. In other words - they started it, not she!

I wish you were lucid for atleast a brief time.

>>Further, secular governance does have its roots in certain philosophical trends - which were not self-consciously lumped into a monolith called "secular philosophy". The philosophical traditionas upon which secular thinking bases its arguments do not suggest the "absence of spirituality in human life" as some kind of Fact.

Perhaps a shot of whiskey will help with that gobbledygook.

>>It is just that they favour rational, individual inquiry into the nature of the world and do not think that divine or priestly intervention is necessary to really-really-really Know. Some "Secular philosophy" traces its roots back to Hellenic philosophers. (European thinkers have preferred to do that, signalling their inherent Eurocentrism. The Greek 'tradition' is an entirely artifical one, given that it was never an unbroken tradition.) Such ideas have also existed on the Indian subcontinent for millennia - might be going too far too call them "Hindu", though Hindu thinkers, more often than their Christian counterparts, have engaged and plagiarised, (rather than uniformly beheaded or crucified) out-of-the-box thinkers.

I am not ready to declare you as Minu_Chaterjee’s long lost twin yet...but you are close in incoherence.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 25, 2006 12:00 AM
25
Sundari writes:

>>Wikipedia is probably not the best source of information about what the Aztecs were really all about.

As to outright facts whether they were into human sacrifices or not? Wiki gives a concise introduction in general.

Besides, a citation such as, “W. Krickeberg, M. Trimborn, W. Muller, and O. Zerries, Die Religionen des alten Amerika (Stuttgart: Kohlhammer, 1961), p.49 [English trans., Pre-Columbian American Religions, trans. Stanley Davis (London, Weidenfield and Nicolson, 1968)] is guaranteed to blow your mind...

>>Wikipedia is useful for outright Facts - like DSM IV criteria for mental illnesses (the context in which Old mac was initially introduced to Wikipedia).

Is there a charity that I can donate some wit and logic to…so it can help out people like you?

>>For anything else, please remember that ANYONE can write entries on Wikipedia, and anyone can edit them.

Try editing it to say that the earth is flat and the sun revolves around it.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 25, 2006 12:00 AM
24
About Bharath not finding the response he wants for his 2000000000000000000000000 dead, will this help?

Bharath, believe it or not, Muslims and Buddhists do engage in interfaith discussions, and these discussions have even been published in books.

I'll admit that these inter-faith discussants being older than me and less fed on coffee, are much more polite to each other than I am on the outlook forum. But they DO address all these questions.

A few months ago, a friend visiting from overseas lent me a lovely book (forget the title), a Muslim-Buddhist dialogue. It was between an Iranian Sufi and a Japanese Buddhist. They were both, as the good Orientalists would say "exquisitely polite". The Japanese man asked about Islam (and never about massacres). The Iranian man not only asked about Buddhism - but - and here's the thing I don't often see - acknowledged (repeatedly, without being asked) that many horrors had been perpetrated by Islam in its spread, and also - again something I dn't see - provided many details of the interaction of Islam and Buddhism in Balkh (Bactria) and Khorasan (NE Persia) whereby Buddhism, Manicheanism and Tantra influenced Sufism. He had a refreshingly non-hung-up attitude about all this.

This got me really interested in the whole content of the discussion, which is why, I am hung up on Sufism, Buddhism and Central Asia, much to NNNNNNNNNN's annoyance.

But anyway - you may want to look for such books, if what you seek is some kind of acknowledgement that these things happened. I think, in the heightened communal atmosphere of modern India, people often think such conversations are a prelude to being massacred, and react defensively. Understandable! Modi and BJP have regrettably screwed up free speech and dialogue for all of us in many ways. I would conceivably react defensively if I was afraid of being blown up, raped or burnt. Note that it hasn't stopped me from fully expressing what I think about Islam, but that's because I know Fine can't find me with the RDX.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Sep 25, 2006 12:00 AM
23
Wikipedia is probably not the best source of information about what the Aztecs were really all about.

Wikipedia is useful for outright Facts - like DSM IV criteria for mental illnesses (the context in which Old mac was initially introduced to Wikipedia).

For anything else, please remember that ANYONE can write entries on Wikipedia, and anyone can edit them.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Sep 25, 2006 12:00 AM
22
>>>The sloppiness with which this monk thinks is unbelievable. There is a gaping difference between secular governance and secular philosophy. The former deals with the role of coercive state power in regulating religious beliefs and rights of people. The latter deals with absence of spirituality (of any kind) in human life.

The difference is not as "gaping" as Old Mac breathlessly suggests (communicating an underlying anxiety about the fact that the monk actually makes sense).

The Pope is upset over secular *governance* - Church arguments against secular governance have always performed the cunning feint of suggesting that it banishes "spirituality" from human life - thus the equation of secular governance with secular philosophy has an all-European history older than the Hindu monk you want to beat up on. In other words - they started it, not she!

Further, secular governance does have its roots in certain philosophical trends - which were not self-consciously lumped into a monolith called "secular philosophy". The philosophical traditionas upon which secular thinking bases its arguments do not suggest the "absence of spirituality in human life" as some kind of Fact. It is just that they favour rational, individual inquiry into the nature of the world and do not think that divine or priestly intervention is necessary to really-really-really Know. Some "Secular philosophy" traces its roots back to Hellenic philosophers. (European thinkers have preferred to do that, signalling their inherent Eurocentrism. The Greek 'tradition' is an entirely artifical one, given that it was never an unbroken tradition.) Such ideas have also existed on the Indian subcontinent for millennia - might be going too far too call them "Hindu", though Hindu thinkers, more often than their Christian counterparts, have engaged and plagiarised, (rather than uniformly beheaded or crucified) out-of-the-box thinkers.

>>>Its precisely this kind of monkery that Hinduism generally belabored under for several millenia and still does today.:

See above.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Sep 25, 2006 12:00 AM
21
>>>It is a very common theme/refrain to say that when the white man landed natives were killing each other off via human sacrifices.

So either the Christians ended up being proselytized into the Aztec religion themselves (when they slaughtered the Aztecs), or the Christians believed in human sacrifices too.

Can't use BOTH "We were morally superior" AND "They did it too", to explain the events in question.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Sep 25, 2006 12:00 AM
20
Aziz says,

>> you have to somehow pay for 20,000,000 Hindu/Buddhists/Jains killed in ethnic cleansing.

In a few years, the number given will be 40,000,000.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Sep 25, 2006 12:00 AM
19
Varun writes:

>>So far, the evidence of even Aztecs committing mass sacrfices is inconclusive; if it turns out that they did indeed on occasion perform them, it still wouldn't justify even a single Spanish massacre of Indians in South America.

The fog you emit is evidence that you don't want to engage the topic on its substance. Inconclusive evidence of mass sacrifice? even if they did it "on occasion?" You have the credibility of a $3 bill. Your avoidance of the issue merely means you have nothing to contribute on the issue or agree on the substance but trying to shift the subject.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 25, 2006 12:00 AM
18


http://www.thirdworldtr...tory/Pestilence_AH.html


Europe before 1492, and some more interesting information
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Sep 25, 2006 12:00 AM
17

Mukesh, that's one of the great ironies you mention. Native Indian warfare did *not* involve mass killing of people, including combatants! European invaders themselves expressed both contempt and bewilderment at the low level of intensity of fighting in traditional Indian warfare, for, to paraphrase one of them ,it is a great calamity among the Indians if 7 men die in seven years! Even if one makes an exception for the Aztecs( whose warfare probably did lead to more killing than that) , the numbers involved would be far less than in European warfare, with its hundred years war, thirty years war etc. So far, the evidence of even Aztecs committing mass sacrfices is inconclusive; if it turns out that they did indeed on occasion perform them, it still wouldn't justify even a single Spanish massacre of Indians in South America.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Sep 25, 2006 12:00 AM
16
Current Pope has two main adverseries
1. Islam
2. Agnostic Secular Credo

He is trying to test waters before taking the plunge. This is a trailer, wait for the full movie. Since new pope comes only after the incumbent passes away. It is indeed going to be a really long dark night ahead.

All said and done, I agree with him on one point that christians should have the same rights/freedom in non-christian countries that non-christians enjoy in christian countries.
Aziz
Pune, India
Sep 25, 2006 12:00 AM
15
BHARATH


>>Is that the message from our "moderate", "modern", Moslem friend-after revisiting graphically, Islam's violent, terrorist onslaught against a hapless people-leading to the decimation of a glorious Buddhist civilization from the North of India?

GHULAM Y FARUKI
I guess it is "Heads you lose and Tails he wins". I should admit that you have to some how pay for 20,000,000 Hindu/Buddhists/Jains killed in ethnic cleansing.
Aziz
Pune, India
Sep 25, 2006 12:00 AM
14
Varun writes:

>> The issue of 'equality of beliefs' wasn't, well, an issue at all until the Spanish arrived on the scene in South America....

The lack of discipline in your mind makes you wander all over instead of addressing the issue the monk raise: the purported equality of all beliefs. Therefore, the arrival of spaniards has no bearing on the issue.

>>Also, the native Indians, being the original inhabitants of the Americas, get the benefit of the doubt.

doubt over what?

>>The idea of the inquistion holding, war mongering, fanatic Spaniards calling these Indians uncivilised and primitive is absolutely stupefying.

Having been heavily invested in a demonology involving the Spanish (and by extension Western) conquest of the Americas, you attempt to be slippery in avoiding the issue of whether Aztec religion involving human sacrifice can claim to "equality" of dignity and respect based on the monk's argument.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 24, 2006 12:00 AM
13
Sriram writes:

>>Mac, you are right, the monk was sloppy in his thinking, but to extend the same to say that Hinduism belabored under such monkery is prejudice.

The mega theme in Hinduism is the merging of everything into an “absolute consciousness.” Thus the whole intellectual motif is one of amalgamation. That is exactly the opposite of resolution. The quality that people demand is resolution be that in cameras or satellites. Resolution means the distinction of two nearby objects. High resolution allows for greater detail. This monk conflates secular governance with secular philosophy into a vague “secularism,” an example of such amalgamation. On the other hand, distinguishing and resolving, as I did, clarifies the two categories and helps us think more rigorously thus more clearly.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 24, 2006 12:00 AM
12

Also, the native Indians, being the original inhabitants of the Americas, get the benefit of the doubt. It would be different if the Aztecs invaded Spain. The description of pre-conquest Tenochtitlan( now Mexico city) in Stannard's "American Holocaust" is a very moving passage about a once great city, all the more so because of the impending slaughter that befell it at Spain's hands. The idea of the inquistion holding, war mongering, fanatic Spaniards calling these Indians uncivilised and primitive is absolutely stupefying.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Sep 24, 2006 12:00 AM
11

The issue of 'equality of beliefs' wasn't, well, an issue at all until the Spanish arrived on the scene in South America. The Aztecs, Incas and Mayas were doing nicely for untold centuries until they were , um, discovered by the Spanish. The Wikipedia article makes the conquest of the Americas look really benign. It's easy to say that disease killed the majority of native Indians. But what about those Indians who didn't fall to disease? They were treated with tremendous respect, consideration and equanimity. If only disese hadn't killed the poor Indians off. Yeah, right.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Sep 24, 2006 12:00 AM
10
Mac, you are right, the monk was sloppy in his thinking, but to extend the same to say that Hinduism belabored under such monkery is prejudice.
Sriram
Chennai, India
Sep 24, 2006 12:00 AM
9
>>>All you want to do is to use this site to advance your anti-Islamic hate propaganda.

I hardly think Bharath is advocating "hate" against people. He finds a belief system called Islam repugnant.

And I agree that others could equally be accused of pro-Islamic hate propaganda.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Sep 24, 2006 12:00 AM
8
Varun Shekar writes:

>>Those stories of Aztecs mass murdering or mass sacrificing human victims are all heresay, exaggeration and Spanish imperialist propaganda.


http://www.livescience....n_sacrifice_050123.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_culture

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

>>The Spanish didn't actually see any human sacrifice committed. And the numbers involved in the putative sacrifice were far, far less than the numbers of Aztecs killed, enslaved , raped or made refugees in their own homeland. By a factor of several million!

As if the issue were a dispute over numbers...as opposed to the issue of "equality" of all beliefs..

>>David Stannard, in his excellent "American Holocaust" goes into the Aztec culture and civilization in fair depth. He comes to the conclusion that the Aztec civilization was on the whole more egalitarian, civilised, cleaner and gentle than the Spanish. What the Aztecs lacked was military technology, as well as devious and conniving tactics. It's incredible that in this day and age, people are still propagating this garbage of the Aztecs and mass human sacrifices. It's highly discredited in most scholarly circles as being crude Spanish propaganda to justify their bloody conquests in South America.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Holocaust

Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Sep 24, 2006 12:00 AM
7
Bharat could well be accused of repetition -- or propaganda, if you will. But then so could those who accuse him. Perhaps he could just turn back and respond:

All you want to do is to use this site to advance your pro-Islamic propaganda. You don't even have the decency to get a blog of your own to propagate your bigotry.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Sep 24, 2006 12:00 AM
6
Bharath says,

>> I would certainly have expected even from an Osama Bin Laden, a more sincere and an honest reflection

Goebbelsian gobbledygook. All you want to do is to use this site to advance your anti-Islamic hate propaganda. You don't even have the decency to get a blog of your own to propagate your bigotry.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Sep 24, 2006 12:00 AM
5

Those stories of Aztecs mass murdering or mass sacrificing human victims are all heresay, exaggeration and Spanish imperialist propaganda. The Spanish didn't actually see any human sacrifice committed. And the numbers involved in the putative sacrifice were far, far less than the numbers of Aztecs killed, enslaved , raped or made refugees in their own homeland. By a factor of several million! David Stannard, in his excellent "American Holocaust" goes into the Aztec culture and civilization in fair depth. He comes to the conclusion that the Aztec civilization was on the whole more egalitarian, civilised, cleaner and gentle than the Spanish. What the Aztecs lacked was military technology, as well as devious and conniving tactics. It's incredible that in this day and age, people are still propagating this garbage of the Aztecs and mass human sacrifices. It's highly discredited in most scholarly circles as being crude Spanish propaganda to justify their bloody conquests in South America.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Sep 24, 2006 12:00 AM
4
>>>Aspersion of the religions of others is a commonplace among jihadis, sanghis and evangelists,

Correction. Aspersion of the religions of others is a commonplace among Muslims, Sanghis and Evangelical Christians.
Sundari
Chennai, India
Sep 24, 2006 12:00 AM
3
It is time someone formulate a concrete policy on how to tackle this Islamic menace. Pope made an academic speech and illiterates around the world were offended. A lot of column space was wasted on advising the pope. As usual Islamic brothers were ignored other than calling for increased security against these people. It is time media stop publicising or even recognizing any of the issues advocated by Muslims. Be it geo-political, religious, social or economic. Let them rot on this earth so that the naked virgins, mountains of dates and rivers of vines will welcome them in heaven.
Akhil
Chicago, United States
Sep 24, 2006 12:00 AM
2
"Benedict comes to other religions from what appears to be a position of superiority. He treats Islam as "the other" and doesn’t often even acknowledge Hinduism which is clubbed under "Asiatic religions". He makes it clear that Christianity is the only "true" religion"

In view of this the Pope's controversial remark was not a flub, but a well thought out strategic move. The Pope should not however be faulted for saying what he said, because he is being consistent with his agenda, just as Pope John Paul II said and did things consistent with his agenda of interfaith dialogue. It may be a politicl faux pas, but not a faux pas from the point of view of the goals and mission of his papacy. Aspersion of the religions of others is a commonplace among jihadis, sanghis and evangelists, so no one has a right to complain. All religions have bloody histories, although some are better at whitewashing their past than others. Unless the world sets up some code of behavior, we all will do well to be a little less thin skinned (especially the Muslims).
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Sep 23, 2006 12:00 AM
1
Seema writes:

>> Sadhvi Chaitanya, a Hindu monk who attended an inter-religious dialogue near Rome in May, noted the "glaring contradictions in Vatican’s approach to religious traditions other than their own". The same month the Pope had sternly reminded the Indian ambassador of India’s secular tradition and complained about anti-conversion bills. "The Pope’s recent controversial speech, in which he traces secularism as the cause of various societal ills, stands in stark contradiction to his statement that India is not secular enough. Such incidents make one wonder about the Vatican’s interest and motives in engaging in dialogue," she told Outlook.

The sloppiness with which this monk thinks is unbelievable. There is a gaping difference between secular governance and secular philosophy. The former deals with the role of coercive state power in regulating religious beliefs and rights of people. The latter deals with absence of spirituality (of any kind) in human life. Its precisely this kind of monkery that Hinduism generally belabored under for several millenia and still does today.

>>"If the Vatican could understand that every religious and spiritual tradition is as sacred as Christianity, and that they have a right to exist without being denigrated or extinguished, it will greatly serve the interests of dialogue, mutual respect, and peaceful coexistence," she added.

In the year 1487, at the Aztec capital city of Tenochtitlan, on the occasion of building an Aztec temple, “the lowest estimate” of 20,000 people bled to death over four days as human sacrifice to the sun god. It was believed that sun god lived on the blood of people and without such sacrifice the world would end. War captives were sacrificed by divine command. To earth and vegetation gods, the Aztecs offered, “men and women, who were for the most part flayed alive”; to rain god, who were thought to be like dwarfs, little children were drowned as sacrifice.

So, what is to be made of the Aztecs' claim of equal sacral quality and its right to exist without being denigrated or extinguished? After all, if “equality” of all religions principle is to mean anything, Aztecs should also be able to claim it.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
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