Cover Story
Science Of The Times
IITs continue to rule. In medicine too, the top ranks are not new. The growing number of private institutes in the list is the surprise.
A recent flurry of private institutes has helped improve the scene, especially in south India
The real issue is not quality but seats—or the acute shortage of them
We asked the most informed group—senior faculty in different colleges across the country—to rate the institutes.
Cover Story
Small-sized projects, overworked faculty, a vicious IPR regime... all hamper a fruitful partnership between IITs and industry
Saikat Datta
Cover Story
Karnataka's CET model was a success. A departure has led to chaos.
Sugata Srinivasaraju
COver Story
From oceanography to oenology, new career options are heady
Arindam Mukherjee
Tamil Nadu experience
Tamil Nadu has almost perfected the admission procedure for engineering colleges. The system is so transparent and well-oiled that few other states can match it.
T.R. Muralidharan
Tamil nadu experience
With my cut-off marks, the choice was limited but my caste helped me get admission in a Chennai college. I faced no discrimination.
S. Senthil Kumar
New career options may have sprung up in the past few years, but getting a seat in an engineering or medical college is still a coveted dream for students and parents. Each year, lakhs of students passing out of school queue up to sit for entrance examinations, scramble to find out where they can get in on the basis of merit or quota, and pressure their parents to cough up the huge fees.
 
 
Of the 80,000 seats in engineering colleges in Tamil Nadu, over 21,000 remained vacant last year.
 
 

But selecting the best college is not easy. At present, there are 1,346 engineering colleges approved by the All India Council of Technical Education (AICTE), with a seat capacity of 4,40,000. Then there are 242 medical colleges approved by Medical Council of India (MCI) with an annual intake of 25,000 students. Moreover, not much information is available about most of them, except for the known institutes like the IITs, AIIMSs, MAMC and BITS. Most students have little idea about the quality of the plethora of private colleges that have mushroomed over the past decade or so in the southern and western states. Students and parents go by word of mouth to decide which college to join.

To help prospective students pinpoint the best professional colleges, Outlook commissioned research organisation Cfore to rank India's top engineering and medical colleges. We asked the most informed group—senior faculty members in different engineering and medical colleges across the country—to rate the institutes they were familiar with against various parameters: intellectual capital, pedagogic systems, infrastructure, industry interface and placements (see methodology). The top 100 engineering colleges and top 25 medical colleges formed part of our rankings.

The final rankings were largely along expected lines. The IITs—Kanpur, Kharagpur, Bombay, Madras and Delhi—comprise the top five engineering colleges. AIIMS, CMC and AFMC are the top three among medical institutes. The good news is that several of such institutes have the potential to become world class. They have the ingredients to compete with the best in the world. More importantly, many of the private colleges figure in the Outlook-Cfore list; there are many privately-owned engineering institutes in the 50-100 ranking.


Students working at a laboratory in IIT, Kharagpur

India's engineering colleges can be broadly segmented as either government-aided autonomous colleges, university colleges or private institutes. The latter category can be further segmented as deemed universities, university-affiliated or autonomous. All private colleges have to be managed by non-profit organisations—a trust or a society. Although the first government college was set up in 1847 in Roorkee, the modern era of high-quality technical education started with the setting up of IIT Kharagpur in 1951. A number of regional engineering colleges or RECS (now called National Institutes of Technology, or NITS) followed. At present, there are eight IITs and 18 NITS, and all of them—except NIT Silchar and NIT Srinagar—figure in our list. Set up in the late 1990s, the Indian Institutes of Information Technology (IIITS) are the latest additions to the growing number of engineering colleges catering to the ever-growing demand of quality manpower by the booming IT/ITES sector. The private sector entered the fray in the early '50s in Karnataka—Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh allowed private players in the '80s.

Low entry barriers, lack of effective regulatory mechanisms, and the growing demand for technical/professional courses led to a proliferation of private engineering colleges.

 
 
In terms of papers in journals or patents, the IIT faculty does poorly. IITs don’t figure in the global top 100.
 
 
Reservations for scheduled castes, scheduled tribes and other backward classes in the southern states further fuelled the growth momentum, and the trend peaked in the '90s. Today, Tamil Nadu has the maximum number of colleges (254), followed by Andhra Pradesh (236), Maharashtra (155) and Karnataka (118). In fact, these four states account for 57 per cent of all the engineering colleges in India.

But numbers don't logically translate into quality education. In Andhra Pradesh, for example, less than 20 institutes have good faculty or quality laboratories. Of the 80,000 seats in Tamil Nadu, over 21,000 remained vacant last year as students were not sufficiently enthused by several colleges. In other states too, few colleges in the private sector are disciplined enough to plough back the surpluses generated to improve the academic standards. The quality of education in many university colleges has also deteriorated over the years because of bureaucratic bottlenecks. Despite such obstacles, a few colleges like Anna University in Chennai, and Jadavpur University and Bengal University in the east have managed to retain their edge.

What's worse, the research environment is rather impoverished in most of the country's institutes. Even in prestigious colleges like the IITs, there's a lack of research interface with the industry. Industry interface in our institutes is synonymous with summer projects that students undertake. The country's small and medium enterprises could have benefited greatly if this interface had been nurtured. In terms of publications in reputed international journals or patents, the contribution of the current faculty members is rather meagre. No wonder, none of the IITs figure in the top 100 in global rankings. In other words, most of them continue to be teaching colleges; they only disseminate existing knowledge, they are not proactive enough to create new skill sets.

The technical institutes have also not shown much willingness to do research in pedagogic processes in order to make dissemination of knowledge more effective and generate interest in learning. Teaching is more theoretical than experiential. The pedagogic systems and processes test the ability to retain information rather than to encourage its analysis, synthesis and creative application. This is contrary to new-age expectations. With the upgradation of the computer chip, memorising facts is no longer important, and most information is accessible at the click of a button. Today, it's the ability to use information creatively which is valued more by modern-day organisations. Instead of leading this change in mindset, the Indian institutes have responded rather slowly to the external environment.


Seth G.S. Medical College students in Mumbai

Unfortunately, the situation is the same in the case of medical colleges as far as intellectual capital, infrastructure and pedagogic processes are concerned. The first medical college, Calcutta Medical College, was set up in 1835, and the era of private ones began in 1953 with the setting up of Kasturba Medical College (Manipal). Of the 241 institutes, only 50-60 maintain minimum quality standards. The government colleges score over their private counterparts because of high clinical exposures that students get there. The reason: most government institutes have attached hospitals, which attract a number of patients seeking free treatment.

But the overall standards in government colleges are not too good either. A senior MCI officer admits that if they have to subject all the government colleges to the usual inspection drill, at least half of them will have to be shut down. Faculty shortage is acute and the MCI is able to approve only 8-10 of the 30 applications it receives every year to start a new college, because the existing ones are already unable to meet the faculty and infrastructure requirements. Recently, the regulatory body blacklisted 25 faculty members for simultaneously enrolling in more than one college.

So, the UPA government's bid to give a hand to institutes of higher education should help. An increase in the number of seats in such colleges, including those offering professional courses, should yield results in the near future. But what's more important is to set up an excellent regulatory mechanism, and open up the technical education segment.


(The author is director, Cfore.)

A recent flurry of private institutes has helped improve the scene, especially in south India
The real issue is not quality but seats—or the acute shortage of them
We asked the most informed group—senior faculty in different colleges across the country—to rate the institutes.
Cover Story
Small-sized projects, overworked faculty, a vicious IPR regime... all hamper a fruitful partnership between IITs and industry
Saikat Datta
Cover Story
Karnataka's CET model was a success. A departure has led to chaos.
Sugata Srinivasaraju
COver Story
From oceanography to oenology, new career options are heady
Arindam Mukherjee
Tamil Nadu experience
Tamil Nadu has almost perfected the admission procedure for engineering colleges. The system is so transparent and well-oiled that few other states can match it.
T.R. Muralidharan
Tamil nadu experience
With my cut-off marks, the choice was limited but my caste helped me get admission in a Chennai college. I faced no discrimination.
S. Senthil Kumar
 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Dec 10, 2007 12:00 AM
64
Media in India is quite a driving force, and I slaute the media system in India for their commited work in keeping the masses aware of the contemporary.
Sometimes a wrong piece of information can be of very demotivating and catastrophic. I really appreciate the hardship that your esteemed magazine has taken to rank the Indian colleges, but did your magazine ever try to find out why some colleges are under others, and some names don`t appear. I don`t want to ask you why you have excluded college`s name, but I want to ask you how did u categorize the colleges..did u ever try to find out the educational system and their functioning..did u ever try to find any sort of politics withing educational systems? Did Outlook ever question how much value the people have?

Just by giving a rank doesn`t mean the work is over. I would humbly request Outlook to have an indepth research into the educational system. I have faith on the media houses of my country that they can wash away the nuisances and malpractices within the system and make the society more aware.

Well by the way am from NIT silchar whose name never appeared, but I don`t care as long as I know where my seniors, friends and my juniors are..
syed tanveer alim
melbourne, Australia
Jul 16, 2007 12:00 AM
63
scsvmv,kanchipuram it has got a good recognition why don't you survey it.
website:www.kanchiuniv.ac.in
yash
chennai, India
Jun 05, 2007 12:00 AM
62
just see it yaar
hitesh manwar
durg, India
Mar 24, 2007 12:00 AM
61
Dear Editor:

This is to request that SGSITS, a leading Engineering college in Central India, be given an opportunity to presents itself for the survey of India’s Top Engineering Colleges.

I may be reached for the same at agarg@sgsits.ac.in and by phone at 0731-2546333 or 0 - 98265 36500.

Thank you very much.

Sincerely,


(Ajay Garg)
Training & Placement Officer
24-3-07
SGSITS
Indore, India
Sep 01, 2006 12:00 AM
60
I want Ranks of all Engg.Colleges in India
aparna
kolhapur, India
Jul 18, 2006 12:00 AM
59
I appreciate the extensive study done by Outlook team to come up with the rankings of Engineering colleges. This would definitely give the engineering aspirants a good idea on which college to chose for their engineering education. Though, I do have few questions on the way these institues are ranked, I cannot find my college Faculty of Engineering, DayalBagh Educational Institute (Deemed University) there. I do have a question if Dayalbagh was selected for the evaluation. If not, why? I can say for sure in my opinion Dayalbagh is better than 50% of the institutes that are figured in Outlook's top 100 engineering colleges list. I am a 1999 passout of this Engineering college.



Vikram Roy
Bangalore, India
Jul 16, 2006 12:00 AM
58
I would comment on your analysis in the end but letme talk of your figures which are all wrong.

1. Rs. 11 lakhs per student - where did you get this figure? At IIT Delhi we have nearly 4200 students and a grant of nearly Rs. 100 crores - that is less than rs 2.5 lakhs per student.
2. 95% chair Professors from Govt. Please visit the link
http://www.cse.iitd.ernet.in/about/chairs.html

The reverse is true; 95% from private and a few from public sector and not Govt.
3. I am involved in one activity which is fully privately sponsored which is three times the amount you talk of private sponsorship for IITs. Not clear where you got the data from. I know a lot of other activity which is privately sponsored.
4. Regarding students going abroad. IIT Delhi is a predominantly postgraduate Institute. Number of PGs produced per year is nearly 2.5 to 3 times the UGs and they hardly migrate outside. Evn in UGs the number of students migrating outside the country has come down drastically. The book IITian is completely outdated.

There are serious issues regarding technology transfer from IITs but your article does not even touch any of them.
A very dissappointing article on a real issue.

regards
Prof. M. Balakrishnan

M Balakrishnan
New Delhi, India
Jul 14, 2006 12:00 AM
57
Looks like yet another biased survey by Outlook to prove the point that Tamil Nadu reservations is the greatest thing since sliced bread!

Is Guindy with 69% reservation all that better than College of Engg Pune??
Ramanan
Chandler, Uganda
Jul 14, 2006 12:00 AM
56
Outlook should stop whitewashing Tamil Nadu's warped admissions machinery, which is designed based on hatred against one particular community. Stop justifying the inhuman 69% reservation in Tamil Nadu!
Ramanan
Chandler, Uganda
Jul 13, 2006 12:00 AM
55
My college is in the top 5. But I can say with 400% conviction that the methodology used is poor because of its inherent subjectivity.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Jul 12, 2006 12:00 AM
54
Ghulam,
My college is in the top 5. Even then I am 400% certain that the methodology is flawed.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Jul 12, 2006 12:00 AM
53
in the wake of so many meanings for the word dude, it was extremely presumptious of you to assume that i intended to use it in the "friend" context. i wonder what made u think, i was using it in a positive context...an exaggerated notion of self worth is a strong possibility
it was in the "Dandy" context, which you repeatedly prove to be most apt.
i couldnt care less about what you think. i didnt think it worthwhile to put in research efforts for a retarded moron like yourself, with an overestimate of selfworth.

bhushan
richmond, United States
Jul 12, 2006 12:00 AM
52
Traditionally a dude (pronounced /d(j)uːd/) is a vole; a man who dresses flashily. But in recent years, the term has taken on a colloquial meaning at variance with that: it now means a male friend, mate, comrade, or associate. It can also be used as an informal form of address when the speaker does not know the name of the person that he or she is speaking to. A dudette or a Dudie is a female friend, comrade, or associate, although increasingly, "dude" is being used as a gender-neutral address. Formerly, the word was associated with Western movies. The new usage entered the mainstream from California surfer slang from at least 1968, referenced in the movie Easy Rider, and today is strongly associated with Generation X.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dude


time and again you prove your dumb and suck in research skills.
Sorry if i dont respond to your messages in future, as it is usless.
Do not insult yourself often, by typing nonsence here.
Vikas
Erfurt, Germany
Jul 12, 2006 12:00 AM
51
vikas,
time and again you have demonstrated ur inability to understand plain simple english - both ways : vocab wise and grammar wise. unfamiliar with the meaning of dude, and inability to comprehend sentences with more than one clause/phrase.

i dont need to research the meaning of dude.
fyi...


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dude

http://webster.com/dictionary/dude

apprently you r in need for some learning..and some omega3 in your diet to enchance the ability to learn.

adios..

bhushan
richmond, United States
Jul 12, 2006 12:00 AM
50
Hey Ping Ping... Nobody denies the in-justice meted out to the LC's in the past which is continuing even today taken up by the BC's from the UC's. Doing the same crime against who committed it cannot take us anywhere as a Nation.
AA for SC/ST should be continued as long as it will be required and as long they get into the system. But why should we reserve for their very oppresors, most of whom were/are/will be the village heavyweights, landlords, Traders & businessmen.
You pro guys don't have a sensible & social logic to justify this anti-social regime whatsoever. Free ticket to life for the majority kicking out the caste minorites can be the only blunt reason for letting them divide us & rule.
Narayan
Zurich, Switzerland
Jul 12, 2006 12:00 AM
49
If all PSU's can be competent and can perform well why in the world should they fear for dis-investment. They CANNOT perform and WILL not even if pressurized. Even the Govt. Dept guys do their work satisfactorily (at an additional price). It's the Nehruvian Socialistic shit & the commies in each PSU's combined with reservation which actually makes all the LC's the laziest & in-competant of all generation after generation.
Narayan
Zurich, Switzerland
Jul 12, 2006 12:00 AM
48
Forget about the quots. It is jus a rat race in the 4 "southern states". People think some disciplines are "hot" and rush headlong . They don't even pause to think about the DISCIPLINE which they LIKE, they just want their "wards to get a seat in a HOT discipline". They are like frogs in the same well. I think things are a little different in the North and I am glad that it is so. Guilty as charged,
ARVIND
ROCHESTER, United States
Jul 12, 2006 12:00 AM
47
Bushan,
I am not responsible if you are dumb enough to undersatnd something.
Better keep your mouth where it is. If you are educated, speak like one.
I had few doubts before about your research qualities before, but I am now aim sure that you suck in it. Better go and learn how to google first, may be it will help trying to search meaning of the word 'dude' first.
Vikas
Erfurt, Germany
Jul 12, 2006 12:00 AM
46
ping pong,

i never quite understood the demand for quotas.. is it for equality and social justice or is it plain funda of vengence??

the pro-quota camp keeps contradicting itself. on the one hand talk about need for upliftment. and at the same time talk about centuries of oppression.
bhushan
richmond, United States
Jul 12, 2006 12:00 AM
45

didnt find anything that even remotely explains the failure of indian public sector.

and wtf..
whoever told you dude = friend. i never suggested that you become my friend.

first you fail to understand the context of the post, which in essence concurred with your own ideas, then you go on to assume that i wanted to make frineds based on ur ideas on the word dude.

bhushan
richmond, United States
Jul 11, 2006 12:00 AM
44
Bushan,
use google. Type Public Management.
Definately you will find lots of documets related to it.
I am not here to make freinds, I just wanted to give my opinion and hope its constructive.
Vikas
Erfurt, Germany
Jul 11, 2006 12:00 AM
43
vikas,

please enlighten me on the reasons for dismal performance of the PSUs. let me also see your "facts" you want me to check.

you also say "The reason for Public Sector being not so productive is completely differnt concept
concept ???

i never suggested that LCs are responsible for the plight of the PSUs and i was trying to make precisely the same point you made in ur last post. govt policy doesnt believe in firing the lazy bums. period. the only difference was in the use of words. i couldnt think of the word accountability. thats all.

u dont want to be my dude... fine by me. couldnt have cared less ..
bhushan
richmond, United States
Jul 11, 2006 12:00 AM
42
I completely agree if anyone says that reservations should be provided only for people belonging to economical poor sector. But it pains me if, people blindy blame backward communities just because some sector is providing reservations and its the sole reason for that sector not functioning compared to other sectors.
Private sector tend to do beter than public sector because of the only reason of accountability. If you dont work you are fired in private sector, which keeps the workers on their toes, but its not completely same in public sector.
Believe me, I know lots of young people form Backward communities who are doing extremely well in their education infact competing with others with/without using reservation. I do agree, some rich people from backward communites misuse reservations. but again its the role of the government to keep a clause that only poor or poor backward communites are eligible for reservations.
Vikas
Erfurt, Germany
Jul 11, 2006 12:00 AM
41
This article is wonderful news. I am less interested in what careers people are going into than the old thinking about careers is changing. Finally, it seems to be clicking in our collective brain that it takes more than just doctors and engineers to make the world run. This could be the beginning of a tectonic change in general attitude, which is the hardest thing to change in India.

I think the outfits that provide vocational technical (vo-tech) training will become more professional and effective over time. This process can be accelerated by 1) discerning students 2) wise government regulation 3) government ranking them by objective criteria. In addition to private institutes, industry consortia can chip in and develop training institutes geared towards their particular industries. The chief benefit of industry focused vo-tech is employers are attracted to skilled employees who are immediately productive. As industry needs change, so does the curriculum. Part of the professionalizing will be career placement service. Outfits that are in for the long-term can kill fly-by-night competitors with career placement. It will become an essential part of their sales pitch; especially if training costs nearly a lakh Rupees. Before investing that kind of money, students will want objective indicators of their effectiveness; like high percentage of their graduates placed in jobs after training. Moreover, the students would want to know how many stay employed for at least one year or more after placement.

This is why educational reforms in primary/secondary education are so critical. Birth and death of industries are inevitable. However, students can be made less prone to obsolescence (and useless, unproductive labor in the country) with solid basic skills in math, analytical and communication skills (reading, writing and speaking). Most importantly, however, they need to be taught the ability to learn & teach themselves. Since all other skills emanate from these basic skills, if an industry were to die, it’s just a matter of learning new application of old skills. Changing careers, while disruptive in the short-term, is something they would be prepared for. We will have a dynamic labor force ready to adapt regardless of changes in the world.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 11, 2006 12:00 AM
40
Vikas,

I am not arguing about why reservation is needed. I am accepting that it is needed to provide help to poor and powerless people. What I am disagreeing with is the way they are being implemeneted in India. Please do not take offense due to my apples/oranges comment. I am simply saying that using caste as the sole criterion for reservation is not a good thing as there are many well-to-do people who keep using the reservation again and again, just like the example I gave in my previous post. If you think about it rationally, it doesn't make sense to have a system where rich people can get shortcuts just by using their last name. What should be done is to modify the reservations to include only those who are financially challanged, and limit it to only one generation per family.
kunal
denver, usa
Jul 11, 2006 12:00 AM
39
Bushan, One more thing, I am not your 'DUDE', neither you are mine. The reason for Public Sector being not so productive is completely differnt concept.
Vikas
Erfurt, Germany
Jul 11, 2006 12:00 AM
38
Bushan, check the facts before you type.
Vikas
Erfurt, Germany
Jul 11, 2006 12:00 AM
37
hey, well u expect certain degree of correctness from the survey conducted by the reputed magzines as quite evidently outlook is..
but alas u wont find any here...
well foremost the criterian for judging the institutes adopted is fairly poor or i must say very medicore that is sure to lack the authenticity..
well the senior faculty memeber of a colllege of south , how can u expect to get aquainted wid the college in north..
every college is to boast of itself...
welll well the nits which centrally funded wid excellant records and A+ certified from NBA..
are sittin at the bottom of pile..
NSIT one of the very premier institute of north india at 32 followed by NIT KURUKSHETRA well last year a survey conducted by DATAQUEST INDIA had nsit in top ten and NIT KURUKSHETRA in top 20..
well u survey scores in one area the institutes coverd are surely gud and reputed ..
but sadly they are in worst possible order
plss try out some authenticity nxt time....
aman
karnal, India
Jul 11, 2006 12:00 AM
36
why take it as case for dalit or SC,,,, its avery general case for any poor student,,, why to use it to market reservation ... and my dear author,,, u getting admission inspite of low percentage and u getting lesser fees is a discrimaintion in itself; though in ur favour this time so u willl think it as positive?

pls think of those poor students who were in ur village school.... their plight is just same as yours, so what if they are from upper caste! did being upper caste help them any way?? pls note my point only includes POOR students,,, dont quote examples from those upper castes who were well off.
moonis
guildford, UK
Jul 11, 2006 12:00 AM
35
vikas says Look at the public sector most of the jobs are filled by UC'S, only a minor portion of jobs have been given to OBC's and these are low level jobs.


dude... are you kidding me??!!! it is the public sector where the reservations are at its peak. and probably the only sector. private sector has no reservation and no discrimination either.

and frankly, i dont think that caste has anything to do with the poor performance of PSUs. it is the socialistic policies of govt. the divested PSUs didnt fire any of the employees, but their performance has greatly improved. an eg. would be sterlite grp.

if you still want to stick to your claim of caste, then how about this. the private sector is dominated by UCs (not my claim, but that of champions of reservation regime)... and look how they perform when compared to PSUs having 30% reservations.
bhushan
richmond, United States
Jul 11, 2006 12:00 AM
34
Ok I agree, some times(every elctions since Indipendence) politicians tend to use reservations as a tool for extra votes, but I doubt if any have been successful using this as a tool. Look at the public sector most of the jobs are filled by UC'S, only a minor portion of jobs have been given to OBC's and these are low level jobs.
Ok I might agree they have been given the low level jobs because of their skills, but I strongly believe that reservations should be provided at the universitly level.

Politics should not mix with Religion/cast, unfortunately in India politicains use religion/caste.

Comming to the point of reservations, I feel they are needed and if properly implemented it would be benificial for the under previlaged castes.
Vikas
Erfurt, Germany
Jul 11, 2006 12:00 AM
33
Vikas Says >>> The basic concept of why reservations are needed is same anywhere in the world.
Except in India where it's used only for Vote-Bank politics and to suppress the caste minorities, most of whom never used to comeout & vote.
Narayan
Zurich, Switzerland
Jul 11, 2006 12:00 AM
32
Sai/Bodepudi,

>> "Coming back from the digression ...."

You just can't help it. You had to inject your communal poison in an otherwise excellent post!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 11, 2006 12:00 AM
31
I am not proving anypoint, It is already a statement made by Government of India.
Vikas
Erfurt, Germany
Jul 11, 2006 12:00 AM
30
Kunal,
The basic concept of why reservations are needed is same anywhere in the world. Please do some research before talking about Apple, Oranges...............
Vikas
Erfurt, Germany
Jul 10, 2006 12:00 AM
29
Vikas commented, "Many countries in the world provide reservations to the under previlaged society like the Americans provide it to Red Indians and Blacks . If it is not wrong there, why should it be worng here in India."

Well, let me say this, you can't really compare the affirmative action in US with reservation system in India. First of all, the magnitude is different as US AA is for "minorities", while the reservation system in a state like TN is for majority (69% reservation). Secondly, the AA in US doesn't compromise on academic merit. Third, if there is no minority candidate, the seat is not wasted but offered to a non-minority candidate, unlike India. Fourth, and most important difference is that affirmative action is not forced on Universities and companies, unlike in India.

So, don't mix apples and oranges to prove your point, please. Reservation is needed in India but for poor people only, irrespective of caste. I had 2 colleagues in college whose parents were IAS officers but still they used their caste to get admission. If someone doesn't find this disgusting, I don't think he/she is thinking straight. This is the kind of reservation that is happening in India. Rich families belonging to so called 'low caste' are exploiting the system to repeatedly reap the benefits of this rotten system . And these are the people who defend the reservation system most vocally, because it is like robbing them of free ticket to life.
kunal
denver, usa
Jul 10, 2006 12:00 AM
28
The methodology must be good since my college is in the top twenty!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 10, 2006 12:00 AM
27
to add to the last msg,

i am all for the AA directed towards the SC/STs. but not for the OBCs. The OBCs are land owners, mill owners, cattle owners etc. they might not be visible in the education sector, but they are by no means poor or oppressed. they are equally responsible for persecuting the SC/ST people.
bhushan
richmond, United States
Jul 10, 2006 12:00 AM
26
vikas,

agreed, AA is needed. but who is benefitting from these policies? only a tiny % of the real oppressed. most of the seats are gobbled up by the rich and powerful SCs in the cities, where there is no discrimination.

Also, in cases like the author's, why should the children of the people who have already availed the benefits and joined the mainstream get quota seats?

besides, as Narayan points out, all the state policies were formulated by the govt, which has been dominated by the quota folks.
not to blame the common quota folks, but the politicos, whether LC or UC are all after the same thing - more votes, and the current resrvation policy is merely a tool for more votes not social justice as you would like to lable it.
the AA has to be taken to the real oppressed. i doubt if they even know about the policy.
bhushan
richmond, United States
Jul 10, 2006 12:00 AM
25
Vikas... one would agree that most sectors were indeed dominated by the UC's and to some extent now also. But on the same breath, the only sector which can & should be held responsible for the Nation's growth, the politics was never ever dominated by the UC's in this 6 decades, except maybe during our infancy as a new Republic.
No one is against the idea of AA, which's inevitable to balance our social equilibrium. But the way it's currently done in India only favours very few deserving ones apart from ofcourse the vote-bank centric politicos.
Narayan
Zurich, Switzerland
Jul 10, 2006 12:00 AM
24
I am curious why S. Senthil Kumar has not mentioned the area he completed his engineering degree in. He says that he is working for Infosys now. I have a feeling that it is not Computer Science. But then that is the way it happens nowadays, you can be a mechanical engineer and still writing codes.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Jul 10, 2006 12:00 AM
23
I feel the methodology adopted by Outlook was flawed. I cannot fathom why you relied on weightage in your questionnaire to arrive at the results. Why not use actual figures? I am sure you could have found actual figures for the number of campus placements for each discipline as a percantage of the total number of students and the budget of the College would have given you a figure on the actual facilities in the college. Similarly the qualifications of the faculty would have provided a mechanisam to quantify the intellectual capital.
I am afraid your survey results can therefore be termed as subjective and not an objective one.
Rajeev
Delhi, India
Jul 10, 2006 12:00 AM
22
I am not balming anyone. I am just asking you guys to stop shouting that because of LC's and SC/ST's India is not developing. And you haven't got my point they might not have been ruling the land but, definately the UC's were ruling all the sectors in India or may be still, but they could not even develop a single sector. You agree that the UC's were mean exploiters before and to some extent, I argue that they are still. Even if you dont find it in urban India, my dear still 70% of India is considered rural, and those pratices still exist there. Forget the past, the present situation demands reservations for under prevelaged society(sc/st's and lc). Let them enjoy the benifits. Many countries in the world provide reservations to the under previlaged society like the Americans provide it to Red Indians and Blacks . If it is not wrong there, why should it be worng here in India.
Vikas
Erfurt, Germany
Jul 10, 2006 12:00 AM
21
vikas,
there was no "indian nation" till 1947, leave alone UCs ruling it. prior to that, the kindoms were monarchies, that too for the last 1000 years, they were not hindu but islamic monarchies in most parts of current india.

no denying the curse of caste system, the atrocities perpetrated by the UCs on LCs, but stop blamin all the maladies afflicting india on UCs. The UCs incidentally stopped being the rulers long time ago. They were only exploiters of LCs. Today in urban areas, even that isnt true any more.
bhushan
richmond, United States
Jul 10, 2006 12:00 AM
20

Using reservation is not criminal offence but, my dear, Rape, wife beating and child molestation are criminal offence. Many shout, that reservations would kill the developmet of the Nation, but my dear till the end of 20th century the so called Upper Casts ruled this Nation, what did they achieved. Were they successful to take the Nation forward? still India is called the third world Nation, Thanx to the UC who ruled the Nation for centuries.
Vikas
Erfurt, Germany
Jul 10, 2006 12:00 AM
19
Mehta, The positive side of the story is appeasing and really a welcome thing for the existing rotten AA system. But why don't you also look at the negative side of this regime.

In TN all UC's are kicked out of the entire system right from the stage of even dreaming for it even worse than the Nazi's regime. Despite having good cut-off marks and some of them dwelling in poverty, they couldn't secure their place in the strata of the society. With raising levels of academic excellence there's no such thing as General quota with more quotawallahs barging into this, raising the AA beneficiaries to 100%, leaving all the rich UC's take-up either the payment seats in a second-rated institution or flee out of the country and all poor UC's are naturally kicked out in the process.

TN is a perfect example for the creamy layer which all the Govts. deliberately encourage, leaving the supposed & genuine targets of the AA in the same place where it was, along with the ethnic cleansing of the UC's.

Why don't you make me write an article on my experience of TN AA... It can turn out to be the story of that pianist escaping from the Nazis.
Narayan
Zurich, Switzerland
Jul 10, 2006 12:00 AM
18
Mehta, The positive side of the story is appeasing and really a welcome thing for the existing rotten AA system. But why don't you also look at the negative side of this regime.

In TN all UC's are kicked out of the entire system right from the stage of even dreaming for it even worse than the Nazi's regime. Despite having good cut-off marks and some of them dwelling in poverty, they couldn't secure their place in the strata of the society. With raising levels of academic excellence there's no such thing as General quota with more quotawallahs barging into this, raising the AA beneficiaries to 100%, leaving all the rich UC's take-up either the payment seats in a second-rated institution or flee out of the country and all poor UC's are naturally kicked out in the process.

TN is a perfect example for the creamy layer which all the Govts. deliberately encourage, leaving the supposed & genuine targets of the AA in the same place where it was, along with the ethnic cleansing of the UC's.

Why don't you make me write an article on my experience of TN AA... It can turn out to be the story of that pianist escaping from the Nazis.
Narayan
Zurich, Switzerland
Jul 10, 2006 12:00 AM
17
There was no comment mentioned about Indian School of Mines, a premier institute, which is one of the oldest in the country.
Categorization into IIT's, NIT's has often derailed the importance of other premier institutes and hurts the sentiments of people like me serving the nation.
Please look into it.
vaibhav
gurgaon, India
Jul 10, 2006 12:00 AM
16
Hi Vikas,
>>>Reservations are here to stay
so are Rape, wife beating and child molestation.
Seshadri
Chennai, India
Jul 10, 2006 12:00 AM
15
A college gains prominence by the quality/profile of students in the college. An IIT is respected across the world not because of its faculty but because of the students who make up the IIT.
The reservation policy as followed in TN is very restrictive and does not allow the emergence of centres of excellence, i.e. why in TN the pvt. colleges are gaining an edge over the Govt. college because pvt. college smartly take 85% of the students based only on merit.
AA is o.k. but reservation only leads to medicrity and it is time we acknowlege the fact instead of pretending that the Emperor has clothes on.

On a side note, last week the Govt. was hit by its worst ever crisis yet surprisingly Outlook a national newsmagazine does not give cover page importance to the same. Compare this with the coverpage importance given to the Rahul Mahajan drug episode and the various related stories telling us that this was the end of BJP etc etc.
Navdeep Hans
Delhi, India
Jul 10, 2006 12:00 AM
14
Carry on Metha with the Southern Spice, Let the World know of Southern’s march towards a developed world. Once we reach there all this empty talk of pro and for reservations will whither. Soon we will unveil your statue on Marina.
sivakumar
chennai, india
Jul 09, 2006 12:00 AM
13
It is a discussion about Indian institutions and the pictures of both young man and woman on the front are of white Caucasians. Does this mean that an Indian young man or woman is not worth a picture on the front page? Come out of this complex.
Maqsood Choudary
Saginaw, Michigan, USA
Jul 09, 2006 12:00 AM
12
Reservations are here to stay. Go shout where ever you want guys.
Vikas
Erfurt, Germany
Jul 09, 2006 12:00 AM
11
This is a good effort, much better than India Today
As for IIIT Hyderabad , my son is studying there and I can tell that it is aided by govt of A.P
Abhay Verma
new delhi, india
Jul 09, 2006 12:00 AM
10
".. but struggled with conceptual and abstract subjects like fluid mechanics.."

There is nothing abstract and conceptual about Fluid Mechanics. To me ,It is an highly interesting and exciting branch of Science firmly rooted in Numbers, Equations, Experiments and hard facts.For example, I am sure you remember your Bernoullis Equation.
shankar
Mumbai, India
Jul 09, 2006 12:00 AM
9
what do you want if not enterance ranks? an elaborate 4 hr interview for each applicant?
or something like american system where you have to write farcial essays? both not feasible.
first for obvious reasons and second becasue a good number of applicants are from rural regions who arent all that good with english.

get a life... and try to get a better rank.
bhushan
richmond, United States
Jul 09, 2006 12:00 AM
8
I wonder what would this guy comment about Infosys if he did not get the job.
... a Brahminical firm ... medieval casteist attitutes etc ... there should be resevations in private sector .... etc etc
ANBanerjee
Newcastle, United Kingdom
Jul 09, 2006 12:00 AM
7
BTW, you worry about transparency when there are doubts about it, you do not hear of fear of transparency in institutes like IITs, BITS, DCE etc
Ajay
Troy, usa
Jul 09, 2006 12:00 AM
6
sto this reservation non-sense and compete as an equal, reservation can not be good for any one's self esteem.
Ajay
Troy, usa
Jul 09, 2006 12:00 AM
5
"I think Tamil Nadu has almost perfected the admission procedure for engineering colleges."

"I think" is the only correct words in this sentence, how would you know what other states do, I find it very offensive when people make mega statements without knowing all the facts.

IMHO, TN suffers from the reservations - that explains the absence of Brahmins and Chetiars in TN.
Ajay
Troy, usa
Jul 08, 2006 12:00 AM
4
Is the chick in the photograph a real doctor or a model. If she is a real doctor, I would like to be her patient.

On a serious side, such surveys does not make much sense in India. When a student decide to pursue a course, there is not much choice. You are driven into things depending on your entrance rank, and the location where you live in an automatic way.
New Me
Cochin, India
Jul 08, 2006 12:00 AM
3
great. i am happy for the author. he availed the AA which helped him join the mainstream without any discrimination.
it is really very heartening to see good use of AA.

but what i cant help wondering is, now that the author has joined the mainstream, will he want the AA to be made available to his kids also?
bhushan
richmond, United States
Jul 08, 2006 12:00 AM
2
If India today's ranking was far from accurate, outlook's first attempt seems to be a blunder. Most of the statistics are 100% inaccurate. For example to rank IIT Madras below IIT Bombay on the placement criteria was a blunder. "Pedagogic Systems" the criteria adopted is always questionable as to the best of my knowledge no formal questionaire for the teaching mechanism was done. Worst of all you classify IIIT Hyderabad as a government institute, when it is a well known fact that it is a private deemed university. To expect the correctness of other stats could just not be expected.

It's just a sham...I never expected it from outlook. If you really want to do it may be it's better spend some more time rather then coming up with something so much trash.
asdf
asdf, asdf
Jul 08, 2006 12:00 AM
1
In Research now all is in molecular level with the advent of computing . A good Maths BSc and MSc with Physics is good training for research work. Only for a routine job Eng degree is enough. but in research you have to be good in Maths annd Physics along with computing The Trend in US & many countries at research in many areas is to go for molecular level work. So if you get Physics , Chem & Maths BSc, do well in that and learn well. May be you will be better researcher than B.Tech or MTech
Rama
Rama
Brisbane, Australia
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