The last mughal
Rising, Falling
As we enter the 150th anniversary of 1857, William Dalrymple casts a new look at one of Indian history's most enigmatic episodes, and its aftermath
William Dalrymple's forthcoming book, The Last Mughal, presents fascinating new facts and perspectives on the 1857 rising, and on the life and times of Emperor Bahadur Shah Zafar. Here are some of them.
The Last Mughal
By William Dalrymple
Penguin India
(Forthcoming)
In June 1858, the Times correspondent William Howard Russell—a man now famous as the father of war journalism—arrived in the ruins of Delhi, recently recaptured by the British from the rebels after one of the bloodiest sieges in Indian history. Skeletons still littered the streets, and the domes and minars of the city were riddled with shell holes; but the walls of the Red Fort, the great palace of the Mughals, still looked magnificent: "I have seldom seen a nobler mural aspect," wrote Russell in his diary, "and the great space of bright red walls put me in mind of (the) finest part of Windsor Castle." Russell's ultimate destination was, however, rather less imposing. Along a dark, dingy back passage of the fort, Russell was led to the cell of a frail 83-year-old man who was accused by the British of being one of the masterminds of the Great Rising, or Mutiny, of 1857, the most serious armed act of resistance to Western imperialism ever to be mounted anywhere in the world. "He was a dim, wandering-eyed, dreamy old man with a feeble hanging nether lip and toothless gums," wrote a surprised Russell. "Not a word came from his lips; in silence he sat day and night with his eyes cast on the ground, and as though utterly oblivious of the conditions in which he was placed.... His eyes had the dull, filmy look of very old age.... Some heard him quoting verses of his own composition, writing poetry on a wall with a burned stick."


"He was a dim, wandering-eyed, dreamy old man with a feeble hanging nether lip and toothless gums," the Times correspondent William Russell wrote of Bahadur Shah Zafar in 1858. The last emperor of the Mughals, a direct but all-too-remote descendant of Genghis Khan.

The prisoner was Bahadur Shah Zafar, the last Mughal emperor, direct descendant of Genghis Khan and Tamburlane, of Akbar, Jehangir and Shah Jehan. As Russell himself observed, "He was called ungrateful for rising against his benefactors. He was no doubt a weak and cruel old man; but to talk of ingratitude on the part of one who saw that all the dominions of his ancestors had been gradually taken from him until he was left with an empty title, and more empty exchequer, and a palace full of penniless princesses, is perfectly preposterous."

Zafar was born in 1775, when the British were still a relatively insignificant coastal power clinging to three enclaves on the Indian shore. In his lifetime he saw his own dynasty reduced to humiliating insignificance, while the British transformed themselves from servile traders into an aggressively expansionist military force.


British residents ride behind emperor Akbar II and his sons in 1815

Zafar came late to the throne, succeeding his father only in his mid-60s, when it was already impossible to reverse the political decline of the Mughals. But despite this he succeeded in creating around him in Delhi a court of great brilliance. Personally, he was one of the most talented, tolerant and likeable of his dynasty: a skilled calligrapher, a profound writer on Sufism, a discriminating patron of miniature painters and an inspired creator of gardens.

 
 
The easy relationship of Indian and Britons gave way to the hatreds and racism of nineteenth century Raj. Two things have put paid to this; one was the rise of British power, the other rise of evangelical Christianity. The changed balance of power led to undisguised imperial arrogance.
 
 
Most importantly, he was a very serious mystical poet, who wrote not only in Urdu and Persian but Braj Bhasha and Punjabi, and partly through his patronage there took place arguably the greatest literary renaissance in modern Indian history.Himself a ghazal writer of great charm and accomplishment, Zafar's court provided a showcase for the talents of India's greatest love poet, Ghalib, and his rival Zauq—the Mughal poet laureate, and the Salieri to Ghalib's Mozart.

While the British progressively took over more and more of the emperor's power, removing his name from the coins, seizing control even of the city of Delhi itself, and finally laying plans to remove the Mughals altogether from the Red Fort, the court busied itself in obsessive pursuit of the most cleverly turned ghazal, the most perfect Urdu couplet. As the political sky darkened, the court was lost in a last idyll of pleasure gardens, courtesans and mushairas.

Then on a May morning in 1857, three hundred mutinous sepoys from Meerut rode into Delhi, massacred every Christian man, woman and child they could find in the city, and declared Zafar to be their leader and emperor. No friend of the British, Zafar was powerless to resist being made the leader of an uprising he knew from the start was doomed: a chaotic and officerless army of unpaid peasant soldiers set against the forces of the world's greatest contemporary military power. No foreign army was in a position to intervene to support the rebels, and they had little ammunition and few supplies.

The Siege of Delhi was modern India's Stalingrad: a fight to the death between two powers, neither of whom could retreat.
 
 
Zafar devoted his evenings to ghazals or eating mangoes and trying to contain the infidelities of his concubines.
 
 
There were unimaginable casualties, and on both sides the combatants were driven to the limits of physical and mental endurance. Finally, on September 14, 1857, the British and their hastily assembled army of Sikh and Pathan levees assaulted and took the city, sacking and looting the Mughal capital, and massacring in cold blood great swathes of the population. In one mohalla alone, Kucha Chelan, some 1,400 Delhiwallahs were cut down. "The orders went out to shoot every soul," recorded Edward Vibart, a newly-orphaned 19-year-old subaltern.

"It was literally murder.... I have seen many bloody and awful sights lately but such a one as I witnessed yesterday I pray I never see again. The women were all spared but their screams, on seeing their husbands and sons butchered, were most painful.... Heaven knows I feel no pity, but when some old grey bearded man is brought and shot before your very eyes, hard must be that man's heart I think who can look on with indifference...."


Delhi was left an empty ruin. Though the royal family had surrendered peacefully, most of the emperor's sixteen sons were tried and hung while three were shot in cold blood. "I confess I did enjoy the opportunity of ridding the earth of these wretches," wrote Captain William Hodson.
 
 
The mutiny papers have resonance with the political situation today. The insurgents called themselves jihadis.
 
 

Those city dwellers who survived the killing were driven out into the countryside to fend for themselves. Delhi was left an empty ruin. Though the royal family had surrendered peacefully, most of the emperor's sixteen sons were tried and hung, while three were shot in cold blood, having first freely given up their arms, then been told to strip naked: "In 24 hours I disposed of the principal members of the house of Timur the Tartar," Captain William Hodson wrote to his sister the following day. "I am not cruel, but I confess I did enjoy the opportunity of ridding the earth of these wretches."

Zafar himself was put on trial in the ruins of his old palace, and sentenced to transportation. He left his beloved Delhi on a peasant's bullock cart. Separated from everything he loved, broken-hearted, the last of the Great Mughals died in exile in Rangoon on Friday, November 7, 1862, aged 87.

It is an extraordinary and tragic story, and one I have dedicated the last three years to researching. Archives containing Zafar's letters and his court records can be found in London, Lahore and even Rangoon. Most of the material, however, still lies in Delhi, the former Mughal capital that Zafar lived in and loved. The writing of the book therefore gave me and my family a welcome excuse to flee the grey skies of Chiswick and move back to this, my favourite of cities, and one that has haunted and obsessed me now for over 20 years.


The tide turned in favour of the British forces after they stormed Kashmiri Gate, seen here after peace returned

I first fell in love with Delhi when I arrived, aged 18, on the foggy winter's night of January 16, 1984.

 
 
Future generations will look back at the conservation failures of early 21st century Delhi with a deep sadness.
 
 
The airport was surrounded by shrouded men huddled under shawls, and it was surprisingly cold. I knew nothing at all about India. My childhood had been spent in rural Scotland, on the shores of the Firth of Forth, southeast of Edinburgh, and of my contemporaries at school I was probably the least well-travelled. Perhaps for this reason Delhi—and India in general—had a greater and more overwhelming effect on me than it would have had on other more cosmopolitan teenagers; the city hooked me from the start. I backpacked around for a few months, and hung out in Goa; but I soon found my way back to Delhi.

Above all it was the ruins that fascinated me. However hard the planners tried to create new colonies of gleaming concrete, crumbling tomb towers, old mosques or ancient Islamic colleges would intrude, appearing suddenly on roundabouts or in municipal gardens, curving the road network and obscuring the fairways of the golf course. New Delhi was not new at all. Its broad avenues encompassed a groaning necropolis, a graveyard of dynasties.

In particular Zafar's palace, the Red Fort of the Great Mughals, kept drawing me back. It was here that I first thought of writing a history of the Mughals, an idea that has now expanded into a Quartet, a four-volume history of the Mughals which I expect may take me another two decades to complete.

Yet however often I visited it—and I often used to slip in with a book and spend whole afternoons there, in the shade of some cool pavilion—the Red Fort always made me sad. When the British captured it after 1857, they pulled down the gorgeous harem apartments, and in their place erected a line of the some of the most ugly buildings ever thrown up by the British Empire—a set of barracks that look as if they have been modelled on Wormwood Scrubs.


This Samuel Bourne picture shows a ravaged Lucknow Residency banquet hall after 1857

Even at the time, the destruction was regarded as an act of wanton philistinism. The great Victorian architectural historian James Fergusson was certainly no whining liberal, but recorded his horror at what had happened in his History of Indian Architecture: "Those who carried out this fearful piece of vandalism," he wrote, did not even think "to make a plan of preserving any record of the most splendid palace in the world.... The engineers perceived that by gutting the palace they could provide at no expense a wall round their barrack yard, and one that no drunken soldier could scale without detection, and for this or some other wretched motive of economy the palace was sacrificed". He added: "The only modern act to be compared with this is the destruction of the summer palace in Pekin. That however was an act of red-handed war.This was a deliberate act of unnecessary Vandalism."

Since 1984 I have lived between London and Delhi for over 20 years, and the Indian capital remains then as now my favourite city: above all it is the city's relationship with its past that continues to fascinate me: of the great cities of the world, only Rome and Cairo can even begin to rival Delhi for the sheer volume and density of historic remains.

I am hardly alone in being struck by this: the ruins of Delhi are something visitors have always been amazed by, perhaps especially in the 18th century when the city was at the height of its decay and its mood most melancholic. For miles in every direction, half collapsed and overgrown, robbed and reoccupied, neglected by all, lay the remains of six hundred years of trans-Indian Imperium—the wrecked vestiges of a period when Delhi had been the greatest city between Constantinople and Canton. Hammams and garden palaces, thousand-pillared halls and mighty tomb towers, empty mosques and semi-deserted Sufi shrines—there seemed to be no end to the litter of ages: "It has a feeling about it of 'Is this not the great Babylon?' all ruins and desolation," wrote Emily Eden in her diary. "How can I describe the desolation of Delhi," agreed the poet Sauda. "There is no house from which the jackals' cry cannot be heard. In the once beautiful gardens, the grass grows waist-high around fallen pillars and ruined arches. Not even a lamp of clay now burns where once the chandeliers blazed."

The first East India Company officials who settled in these melancholy ruins at the end of the 18th century were a series of sympathetic and notably eccentric figures who were deeply attracted to the high courtly culture which Delhi still represented. Sir David Ochterlony set the tone. A miniature survives depicting an evening's entertainment at the Delhi Residency of this period. Ochterlony is dressed in full Indian costume and reclines on a carpet, leaning back against a spread of pillows and bolsters. To one side stands a servant with a flywhisk; on the other stands Ochterlony's elaborate hubble-bubble. Above, from the picture rail, portraits of the Resident's ancestors—kilted and plumed colonels from highland regiments, grimacing ladies in stiff white taffeta dresses—peer down disapprovingly at the group of dancing girls swirling below them. Ochterlony, however, looks delighted.


British troops sinking a shaft, and lying in wait for the rebels mining their way into the Residency

Ochterlony was not, however, alone—either in his Indianised tastes, or the dilemmas this precipitated in his relations with his more orthodox compatriots. When the formidable Lady Maria Nugent, wife of the new British commander-in-chief in India, visited Delhi, she was horrified by what she saw there. It was not just Ochterlony that had 'gone native', she reported, his assistants William Fraser and Edward Gardner were even worse: "I shall now say a few words of Messrs. Gardner and Fraser who are still of our party," she wrote in her journal. "They both wear immense whiskers, and neither will eat beef or pork, being as much Hindoos as Christians, if not more; they are both of them clever and intelligent, but eccentric; and, having come to this country early, they have formed opinions and prejudices, that make them almost natives." Fraser, it turned out, was a distant cousin of my wife, Olivia.

It was this intriguing and wholly unexpected period which dominated the book I wrote about Delhi, City of Djinns, and which later ignited the tinder that led to my last book, White Mughals, about the many British who embraced Indian culture at the end of the 18th century.Now I am at work on what will be my third book inspired by the capital, The Last Mughal, all about the end of Zafar's Delhi, and how the easy relationship of Indian and Briton, so evident during the time of Ochterlony and Fraser, gave way to the hatreds and racism of the high nineteenth century Raj.

Two things in particular seem to have put paid to this formerly easy coexistence: one was the rise of British power, and the other was the rise of Evangelical Christianity. In a few years the British defeated all their Indian rivals and, not unlike the Americans after the fall of the Berlin Wall, the changed balance of power quickly led to an attitude of undisguised imperial arrogance.


Rearview of the Lucknow Residency—shots fired by the rebels from this side killed and wounded many British troops sheltering inside

The change in the religious tenor of the period also profoundly changed attitudes. The wills written by dying Company servants show that the practice of marrying or cohabiting with Indian wives or bibis all but disappeared. Biographies and memoirs of prominent 18th-century British Indian worthies which mentioned their Indian wives or Anglo-Indian children were re-edited so that the consorts were removed from later editions. No longer were Indians seen as inheritors of a body of sublime and ancient wisdom as 18th century luminaries such as Sir William Jones and Warren Hastings had once believed; but instead merely 'poor benighted heathen', or even 'licentious pagans', who, it was hoped, were eagerly awaiting conversion.

As military and economic realities of British power and territorial ambition closed in, among Zafar and his circle, literary ambition replaced the political variety, and this taste for poetry soon filtered down to the Delhi streets: a compilation of Urdu poets published in 1855, The Garden of Poetry, contains no less than 540 poets who range from the emperor and members of his family to a poor water-seller in Chandni Chowk, a young wrestler, a courtesan and a barber.

The closest focused record of the Red Fort at this period is the court diary which contains a fabulously detailed day-by-day picture of Zafar's life. The Last Emperor appears as a benign old man, daily having olive oil rubbed in his feet to soothe his aches, occasionally rousing himself to visit a garden, go on a hunting expedition or host a mushaira. Afternoons were spent watching his elephants being bathed in the Jumna and evenings "enjoying the moonlight", listening to ghazal singers, or eating fresh mangoes. All the while the aged emperor tries to contain the infidelities of his young concubines, one of whom becomes pregnant by the court musician.


Lucknow Residency where the British troops were holed up

By the early 1850s, however, many British officials were nursing plans to abolish the Mughal court and impose not just British laws and technology on India, but also Christianity. The reaction to this steady crescendo of insensitivity came in 1857 with the Great Mutiny. Of the 1,39,000 sepoys of the Bengal Army—the largest modern army in Asia—all but 7,796 turned against their British masters. In some parts of India, the sepoys were joined by the entire population, as the uprising touched a major popular chord. Atrocities abounded on both sides.

Delhi was the principal centre of the uprising.

Pages: 1   2
William Dalrymple's forthcoming book, The Last Mughal, presents fascinating new facts and perspectives on the 1857 rising, and on the life and times of Emperor Bahadur Shah Zafar. Here are some of them.
 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Jul 18, 2006 12:00 AM
262
Part III of III

>>Moreover, Eaton asserts it is selective translations of Persian sources and selective use of epigraphic data that goes into Chaddi historiography. Here’s all of it.

In the land of meritorious education, one can become a professor by mastering the art of making assertions! Goel gives literally hundreds of testimonies and we have Eaton asserting that they are selective! Well if such the large body of evidence happens to be selective, does Eaton give a larger body of representative evidence to buttress this case? No, he just needs to assert and the string bikni brotherhood start applauding! So much for history from real historians!


>>
http://www.hinduonnet.c...ine/fl1725/17250620.htm


While the debate is moved far ahead, we still have members of g-string sodality posting links to old refuted articles!

In any case lets see an excerpt of Eaton’s history writing:
Eaton says: The notion that Babur's officer Mir Baqi destroyed a temple dedicated to Rama's birthplace at Ayodhya and then got the emperor's sanction to build a mosque on the site - the Babri Masjid - was elaborated in 1936 by S.K. Banerji. However, the author offered no evidence that there had ever been a temple at this site, much less that it had been destroyed by Mir Baqi.

Eaton mentions S.K Banerji in 1936 as if he was the conclusive authority on Ayodhya. However, Eaton conveniently ignores the volume of evidence put forward by the VHP during the Ayodhya debate including the findings of BB Lal the director of ASI! Obviously all those evidences would be difficult to refute hence go after the easier 1936 one. Intellectual cowardice must by a part of the curriculum in the west! Anyway, the 2003 ASI findings following the court order have forced the chaddiless chums to run for cover!

>>They have been on the table for quite sometime, but cowards feign ignorance of their existence!
>>Chaddi intellectual rigor at its best: equate your inability with others’ cowardice!

Oh I have a strong ability to butt-spank chaddiless barfers and I quite enjoy it too.
RSM
Delhi, India
Jul 18, 2006 12:00 AM
261
Part II of III

>>Sitaram Goel mentions two thousand temples (not an exhaustive list) which till today hasn’t been proven false by the so-called ‘actual historians’. Instead, they go after some unnamed Hindutva sources figure of 60,000 as if that was the scholarly work from the Hindu side.

Here’s your unnamed source:

“3. …should remember that over 3,000 active Indian Hindu temples have been converted to mosques, and over 60,000 Hindu temples destroyed by Muslim invaders.”



http://www.hinduismtoda...993/02/1993-02-05.shtml


My point of intellectual cowardice is vindicated. This article is an opinion and not even a scholarly study but chaddiless morons love to run after the weakest link and claim victory.

Implicitly, does it make Sitaram Goel is a Hindu scholar?
It is pretty explicit – give a day to get over your hangover and read the post again.

>>Best laugh I had all day.

That’s the best chaddiless fart fraternity can come up with? While you pretend to laugh, your master Eaton went out of his way to respond to a non-scholar!

>>Here’s a frontline article that lists the actual temples that are confirmed destructions. Summarized, Goel relies on British historians translating Persian sources.
Factually incorrect! Goel relies on lot more sources than just British historians!
>>Eaton shows the framework from which those historians operated: “Noting the far greater benefits that Englishmen had brought to Indians in a mere half century than Muslims had brought in five centuries, Elliot expressed the hope that his published translations ‘will make our native subjects more sensible of the immense advantages accruing to them under the mildness and the equity of our rule.’”

Does Eaton show that Elliot formed his opinion before he made the translations or the framework under which Elliot operated resulted distorted translations? In any case, is Eaton able to give a single instance that those translations were incorrect or fraudulent, whatever the motivations. But ardent chaddiless admirers of real historians are already screaming victory!
RSM
Delhi, India
Jul 18, 2006 12:00 AM
260
Part I of III

Old Mac:
>>We have only opinions, which are passed of as rebuttals.
>>None of what Elst has to offer constitutes even an argument in the first place to warrant rebuttal. His writings are little more than apoplectic comedic seizures.

Your repetitive rants of ‘no arguments no arguments!!’ may help to reassure yourself but it has become a big bore here! This is an example why when the chaddiless belching brotherhood give opinions, only their loyal members cheer while the rest of the world falls asleep!

>>The so called historians don’t have the balls to refute Elst’s arguments but instead employ their eager servants who believe that just by questioning their competence or credibility they have made a conclusive case!
>>Let’s see a “Dutch-speaking Belgian sociologist” with a Ph.D. in “Hindu Revivalism” is an authority on history? The idea of Hindu chauvinism needs to be articulated and defended by non-Hindu pamphleteers like Gautier, Elst and Frawley is better than any cruelty I can inflict.

Now I know what gets your goat! A rabid castist Hindu hater seeing whites, Americans, Belgians, French etc defending the Hindu cause! Ooooh that must really hurt!!! So now your meritorious education tells you that Belgians, Ph.Ds, sociologists, scientists, whites etc are automatic disqualifications for refuting ‘real historians’. I guess these real historians have to be carefully protected so that ordinary people don’t burst their gas balloon of substantive arguments! The way actual historian have argued their case, we will soon have school children tearing them to shreds while loyal followers continue to scream “no argument”!

Besides, aren’t “white people” disqualified from talking about Indian history?
Anyone and everyone is qualified taking about Indian history, it is not an exclusive preserve of chaddiless and the g-string wearing fraternity!

>>>>The reason that discussion stopped is because you don't have a substantive argument.
>>That’s why you started again?
>>More like, to set right the misimpression that Chaddis won the argument.

Seeing the quality of your responses, pure silence would have probably done a better job!

>>So Islam has strictures against idols and icons and they have continued with that tradition throughout their history in Middle East? But once in India, they suddenly started following Hindu form of iconoclasm of earlier centuries! This is an example of ‘carefully sourced arguments’ from ‘actual historians’!
>>Your ability to infer makes me wonder if you have difficulty following the plot of a Disney cartoon. Those who argue that Islamic stricture against idols was indeed the (only?) motivation behind the destructions of temples have the burden of proof.

Typical of foot solders to start defending without reading their masters arguments! Goel has given the proof! In fact Eaton’s article was a response to Goel but fails to refute the evidence but instead gives asinine justification of Hindu iconoclasm.
RSM
Delhi, India
Jul 18, 2006 12:00 AM
259
Ping Pong says
"Old Mac is a chap who wathches a Hindu temple smashed by a Muslim ruler who then builds a MOSQUE in its place, all the while spouting ferocious excoriations of Hindu "idolatory" - and STILL thinks there is room for doubt as to whether this Muslim chappie had an Islamic bias against Hinduism.

If it was a church that was destroyed, or indeed, a Hindu ruler destroying a MOSQUE and replacing it with a Himndu temple, I am sure Old Mac would not absolve the destroyer od religious bias. By Old Mac's and Eaton's standards, the destroyers of the Babri masjid had no particular bias against Islam."

Bulls eye Ping Pong
Navdeep Hans
Delhi, India
Jul 15, 2006 12:00 AM
258
Don't know much about history
Don't know much about biology
Don't know much about a science book
Don't know much about the French I took

But I do know that Will's the best
If if his critics would just... take a rest
Then what a wonderful world this would be
Sharon Newell
Sydney, Australia
Jul 14, 2006 12:00 AM
257
Old Chimp

Why do you keep on talking about chaddies.

Chimps dont wear chaddies. They are proud of their red butts, and use it to attract female chimps.

Ask Ameena your muslim chimp. She does not wear panties either, or does she.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jul 13, 2006 12:00 AM
256
Hey... looks like what I posted in response to Mac disappeared - let me try again - if its duplicated, then apologies:


Mac says:"Here’s a frontline article that lists the actual temples that are confirmed destructions."

Eaton's lists out the names of places where desecration occurred. He does not name any temple. As I said earlier, if in a place like Benares, only 1 temple was destroyed in each instance, as claimed by Eaton, then that should have been an extremely important temple. So why can't the "historical genius" Eaton name this temple?

Apparently, Eaton's source for the "Ghurid Army" 1194 instance says that 1000 temples were destroyed in Benares.

Again, Eaton's source for "Shahjahan" 1632 instance says that 76 temples were destroyed in Benares.

Unfortunately, we do not have direct access to these sources.

Mac is free to quote Eaton and his 80 instances and claim victory. We are free to quote Elst, who quotes the sources of Eaton's 80 instances.
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Jul 13, 2006 12:00 AM
255
Part I of II

RSM writes:

>>We have only opinions, which are passed of as rebuttals.

None of what Elst has to offer constitutes even an argument in the first place to warrant rebuttal. His writings are little more than apoplectic comedic seizures.

>>The so called historians don’t have the balls to refute Elst’s arguments but instead employ their eager servants who believe that just by questioning their competence or credibility they have made a conclusive case!

Let’s see a “Dutch-speaking Belgian sociologist” with a Ph.D. in “Hindu Revivalism” is an authority on history? The idea of Hindu chauvinism needs to be articulated and defended by non-Hindu pamphleteers like Gautier, Elst and Frawley is better than any cruelty I can inflict. Besides, aren’t “white people” disqualified from talking about Indian history?

>>>> If you want to maximize the destruction of Hindu temples, you will need actual historians with carefully sourced argument before you can even meaningfully engage on this issue.

>>In the language of the liberal ‘actual historians” and their servants, carefully sourced arguments mean projecting personal prejudices!

Your cant about “actual historians and their servants” is a howler unless you first acknowledge whose servant you are. Since you are likely to deny it, you claim immunity from servitude that’s inaccessible to others? When your momma’s tells you are “special,” take it with a grain of salt.

>>>>The reason that discussion stopped is because you don't have a substantive argument.

>>That’s why you started again?

More like, to set right the misimpression that Chaddis won the argument.

>>So Islam has strictures against idols and icons and they have continued with that tradition throughout their history in Middle East? But once in India, they suddenly started following Hindu form of iconoclasm of earlier centuries! This is an example of ‘carefully sourced arguments’ from ‘actual historians’!

Your ability to infer makes me wonder if you have difficulty following the plot of a Disney cartoon. Those who argue that Islamic stricture against idols was indeed the (only?) motivation behind the destructions of temples have the burden of proof.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 13, 2006 12:00 AM
254
Part II of II

>>Sitaram Goel mentions two thousand temples (not an exhaustive list) which till today hasn’t been proven false by the so-called ‘actual historians’. Instead, they go after some unnamed Hindutva sources figure of 60,000 as if that was the scholarly work from the Hindu side.

Here’s your unnamed source:

“3. …should remember that over 3,000 active Indian Hindu temples have been converted to mosques, and over 60,000 Hindu temples destroyed by Muslim invaders.”


http://www.hinduismtoda...993/02/1993-02-05.shtml


Implicitly, does it make Sitaram Goel is a Hindu scholar? Best laugh I had all day. Here’s a frontline article that lists the actual temples that are confirmed destructions. Summarized, Goel relies on British historians translating Persian sources. Eaton shows the framework from which those historians operated: “Noting the far greater benefits that Englishmen had brought to Indians in a mere half century than Muslims had brought in five centuries, Elliot expressed the hope that his published translations ‘will make our native subjects more sensible of the immense advantages accruing to them under the mildness and the equity of our rule.’” Moreover, Eaton asserts it is selective translations of Persian sources and selective use of epigraphic data that goes into Chaddi historiography. Here’s all of it.


http://www.hinduonnet.c...ine/fl1725/17250620.htm


>>They have been on the table for quite sometime, but cowards feign ignorance of their existence!

Chaddi intellectual rigor at its best: equate your inability with others’ cowardice!

>>Very true, that’s why commie-secular history is already beginning to fade away...

You ought to broaden your horizons to more than just milling about in a Chaddi echo chamber.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 13, 2006 12:00 AM
253
Another of Eaton's "instance" : Shahjahan was invovled in temple destruction in 1632 in Benaras. Source: "Badshah Nama" of Abd Al Hamid
Lahori.

However, the same source , which quotes "It has been brought to the notice of His Majesty that during the late region many idol temples had begun, but remained unfinished at Benaras, the great stronghold of infidelity. The infidels were now desirous of completing them. His Majesty, the
defender of the faith, gave orders that at Benaras and throughout all his dominions at
every place, all temples should be cast down. It was now reported from the province of Allahabad that 76 temples had been destroyed in the
district of Benaras."

There is no way of verifying the exact text of the source as there is no access to it.

However, if we assume that this is right, then as per Eaton's statistics, only 4 temples have been destroyed in the other "79" instances.

Elst (who does not enjoy credibility as a historian) has provided proof about the "Ghurid Army" instance of 1194 where, as per the source,
thousands of temples were destroyed. Now, another source, which Eaton used to quote "one instance", which has been interpreted as 1 temple by the
secularists, has stated that 76 temples have been destroyed.

And these are the "credible historians" that seculars, moderates, liberals would believe?

Srinivas
Delhi, India
Jul 12, 2006 12:00 AM
252
while browing thru the net, I came across this article with photographic evidence on how Taj Mahal was actually a shiv temple. Do not know how far to believe it but some of the arguments sound very convincing.


http://www.stephen-knap...ahal_a_vedic_temple.htm
Navdeep Hans
Delhi, India
Jul 12, 2006 12:00 AM
251
Old Mac:

>>You showed squat. Elst is hardly competent or credible authority on historical matters.

We have only opinions, which are passed of as rebuttals. The so called historians don’t have the balls to refute Elst’s arguments but instead employ their eager servants who believe that just by questioning their competence or credibility they have made a conclusive case! Must be the high standards of debate set in the land of meritorious education we hear so much about!

>> If you want to maximize the destruction of Hindu temples, you will need actual historians with carefully sourced argument before you can even meaningfully engage on this issue.

In the language of the liberal ‘actual historians” and their servants, carefully sourced arguments mean projecting personal prejudices!

>>The reason that discussion stopped is because you don't have a substantive argument.

That’s why you started again?


>>Arguing without reference to any specific evidence and relying on Islamic general disdain for idols must necessarily the motivation is much more laughable. No one argues that Islam had no strictures against idols or icons.

So Islam has strictures against idols and icons and they have continued with that tradition throughout their history in Middle East? But once in India, they suddenly started following Hindu form of iconoclasm of earlier centuries! This is an example of ‘carefully sourced arguments’ from ‘actual historians’!


>>However, the issue is actual scale of destruction and specific evidence of motivation for each destruction. Not some lazy half-assed general imputation.

Sitaram Goel mentions two thousand temples (not an exhaustive list) which till today hasn’t been proven false by the so-called ‘actual historians’. Instead, they go after some unnamed Hindutva sources figure of 60,000 as if that was the scholarly work from the Hindu side. This kind of intellectual cowardice pervading over the so-called ‘actual historians’ and their intellectual slaves is also a function of all the meritorious education one receives in the west!

>>We can talk all you want….just bring facts and arguments based on original sources to the table….not some infantile inferences and squawking about a “even break.”

They have been on the table for quite sometime, but cowards feign ignorance of their existence!


>>All history that stands the test of time will have been written for people who are skeptical and don’t buy into agenda inspired drivel.

Very true, that’s why commie-secular history is already beginning to fade away...
RSM
Delhi, India
Jul 12, 2006 12:00 AM
250
My knowldge of Indian history I'm ashamed to say, is pretty sparse, and if it were not for 'our' William, it would be downright disgraceful. From where I'm sitting,William's books are so engaging, a history lecturer would gladly give up tenure to be able to gather students the way he does. So it's thanks to Willaim that people like me want to learn more.

Do I trust his research skills? You bet!

Sharon Newell
Sydney, Australia
Jul 12, 2006 12:00 AM
249
Ping Pong writes:

>> I am glad that no-one has come back to the Richard Eaton thesis whitewashing Islam for the destruction of the Hindu temples of North India. The ridiculous clever-foolish argument of this American acdemic was cited by several of the apologists and/or deniers of Muslim cultural vandalism in India. When I showed that this was an academic colossus with legs of clay, they seem to have decided to drop Eaton.

You showed squat. Elst is hardly competent or credible authority on historical matters. If you want to maximize the destruction of Hindu temples, you will need actual historians with carefully sourced argument before you can even meaningfully engage on this issue. The reason that discussion stopped is because you don't have a substantive argument.

>>After all, what could be more laughable than claiming as Eaton does that Muslim rulers who destroyed Hindu temples were not impelled by Islamic ideology to do so - when they replaced the destroyed temples with MOSQUES? So easy it is to refute Eaton......!

Arguing without reference to any specific evidence and relying on Islamic general disdain for idols must necessarily the motivation is much more laughable. No one argues that Islam had no strictures against idols or icons. However, the issue is actual scale of destruction and specific evidence of motivation for each destruction. Not some lazy half-assed general imputation.

>>Now it is said that they don't want to "waste time" by talking about destroyed temples ! Though they have all the time in the world for Dalrymple's sugary elegy for British vandalism of MUSLIM buildings! As always, no question of giving the Hindus an even break.

We can talk all you want….just bring facts and arguments based on original sources to the table….not some infantile inferences and squawking about a “even break.”

>>Hindus should not try to convince these guys like Faruki, Old Mac, et al. None so blind as those who won't see.

On the other hand, visual hallucinations of seeing things that are not actually there is hardly an improvement.

>>Muslim apologists and their friends are the least fair-minded people perhaps one is likely to meet. Islam will always be declared immaculate by them, no matter how heinous its sayings and doings.

I am neither a friend nor foe of Islam/Hinduism.

>>I have sat in a Roman Catholic church with my wife, a strong Catholic, and heard the priest read out terrible biblical texts and say openly; the Good Book is not always right.....We are never likey to hear Muslims or their blinded apologists say that much, which is why it is so very hard to reform Islam.

How conveniently general! It's this tendency to be general and failure to be specific what makes your desire for "a truthful rendering of Hindu History" a chimera.

>>Meanwhile, a truthful rendering of Hindu history is a Hindu responsibility. We should write for intelligent people who are broad-mided enough to accept reasonable arguments, and leave the fools to their folly. Never argue with fools, said Pushkin.

I am always ready to exchange 1000 reasonable arguments for 1 fact. Besides, "Hindu History" is an oxymoron. All history that stands the test of time will have been written for people who are skeptical and don’t buy into agenda inspired drivel.

“The illusion which exalts us is dearer to us than ten-thousand truths.” – Pushkin.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 11, 2006 12:00 AM
248
Tuesday, July 11, 2006

Sir

Dalrymple’s The Last Mughal will interest students of Mughal arrogance, complacency and decadence, but his research of the period may well force a drastic review of perceptions about 1857.

Anyone who has done a wee bit more reading than others about the event knows that, apparently, conditional ban on cow-slaughter was the main sop in enlisting majority support for the uprising. Proclamations like ‘Fateh Allah’ had been drafted by mullahs. Leaders of the majority faction (notably Nanasaheb Peshwa, Tatya Tope, Laxmibai, Kunwar Singh and Beni Madhav) had never concealed their subordination to Mughal imperialism after the successful culmination of the event. In regions where the uprising succeeded, the rebels constituted governments which were mainly run by erstwhile Muslim royalty or nobility and participation of Hindus was minimal, if at all.

As the author writes, “The Great Mutiny has usually been told by the Marxist historians of the 1960s and 1970s primarily as a rising against British economic policies”. That simplistic – if not motivated - picture will be considerably altered, especially since the author claims to have used hitherto untapped sources.

One feels the book may well be an eye-opener.

- Bhalchandrarao C. Patwardhan

Bhalchandrarao C Patvardhan
Pune, India
Jul 08, 2006 12:00 AM
247
Bagai,

You and I are talking of different things, but you would not know the difference. Please go back to your drink. Cheers!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 08, 2006 12:00 AM
246
Brother Goolam

Yes christianity has not revised its sciptures.
But not many christians take scriptures seriously. So where is the need to revise them
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jul 08, 2006 12:00 AM
245
Brother Goolam

As I wrote earlier about 11 % of Danes believe in god, jesus and the bible. So who do you think wants to revise the scriptures, Its totally irrelavent.

Most of the liberal thinking world is very laid back on religion. They neither believe or disbelieve. And this is I suppose is the most sensible way.

Followers of Islam are paranoid about their religion. Even cartoons about the prophet sends
millions of people to the streets, burning and pillageing. Even the educated muslims are furious and find explanations for this mad behaviour.

You guys are in thrall to your prophet and Islam
The word I understand means submission.

No Sir what you guys need is not submission but
a dareing approach to your religion.

Can any way with reason believe in the prophets relavations. Can any one believe that Gabriel
the angel sat on his shoulder and talked to him.
Can any one believe that he flew to heaven on a winged horse. But I suppose that if one did question these beliefs in a muslim country, one would be lynched.

The reformation came to Europe because some christians asked the first hesitant questions.
Now its free for all. And this has produced the dynamic western societies.

Luckily for us Hindus, we can ask all the questions, deny the existence of god, Shiva, Bramha and Vishnu . No one will kill us, and we will still be allowed to remain in the Hindu family.Thats why I think its a delightful religion. A religion with lots of rituals, flowers. All our festivals are fun . Divali, Holi, Dussehra.

Thats is some thing muslims must learn. Other wise just forget all about progress.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jul 07, 2006 12:00 AM
244
Ping Pong,

Eaton never said that Hindus caused as much destruction as the Muslims did.

A non-literalist approach to scriptures is necessary in order to reform religions. Even people that are opposed to it, such as fundamentalist Christians or Muslims, practise religions that are not 100% in conformity with their scriptures. It is a subtle process, and in different phases of evolution.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 07, 2006 12:00 AM
243
Ping Pong,

I stand by the accuracy of what I wrote ( I don't think mentioning realities of life is degenerate or vicious; some things are vicious and degenerate in life.) Since you seem to know France very well, why don't you walk around the Arab areas and ask some of them about this situation? Then we will discuss about shame, rubbishness etc..

By the way, are you the new Ramdas Bajjanbhai who located to Vladivistok, Russia not Vladivostok, Russia?
Prasanth
Cochin, India
Jul 06, 2006 12:00 AM
242
Ping Pong,

Thanks for reposting my comment on the Elst article. I stand by that comment, as well as by my contention that amidst a sea of contrdictory versions of history, I find Eaton's views to be most reasonable. If you prefer Elst's writings on the subject, I respect your opinion.

If yesterday you meant a change in interpretation or a change in practice rather than a change in scripture, we have no disagreement.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 06, 2006 12:00 AM
241
This is really funny and perverse at the same time (this talk about interpretation of scriptures, traditions etc. brought this to my mind).

Apparantly in Arab dominated areas of Paris, whenever there is a rape of an Arab girl by Arab men most often it is by anal or oral intercouse while leaving the vagina unviolated. The reason given is the out of respect for Islamic laws, Arab traditions and the honor of the girls family men resist from vaginal sex. So it is not that interpretations are not possible. There should be desperate need for it.
Prasanth
Cochin, India
Jul 06, 2006 12:00 AM
240
Lalit writes >> There is a nearly 100 % chance that there is no heaven or hell.

This reminds me of a very memorable comment by Kerry Packer, who was one of Australia's most richest. He was pronounced clinically dead for about 8 mintues in 1990 after a heart attack. However, he miraculously recovered and lived until 2005. Asked about his experience he said, "The good news, son, is there is no hell but the bad news is that there is no heaven. There's nothing."

Now, wouldn't all hell break lose if everyone believed that.

regards
prakash
Sydney, Australia
Jul 06, 2006 12:00 AM
239
Ping Pong

Christians in the West ie Denmark simply ignore
the bible and its teachings. Revisions of
revelations and so forth could lead to the complete collapse of any religion, and therefore no one wants to do it.

Parents do not tell kids in Denmark that there is no Santa Claus. Myths are permitted and remain.

No one bothers about them

Hindus do the same. How many belive that Ganesh drank milk, or stories about Shiva and Parvati.
We keep these myths alive.

Unfortunately the muslims are liveing in a religious coma. They believe every word from the
Koran, everything that the prophet said. In any case no one dares question this. Of with his
head would be the reponse.

I think that some muslims must debate whether to believe in the revelations of the prophet. The debate must be started, regardless of the result.
Muslims must starting debateing each and aspect of their religion, and then decide whether to believe in it or not.

But anyway muslims must start liveing like others. Drinking a pint of beer, teasing the lasses, enjoying music and fun is the first step.
Give up the dismal thoughts about sin and hell.
Go for it lads.

There is a nearly 100 % chance that there is no heaven or hell.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jul 05, 2006 12:00 AM
238
Ping Pong,

Can you give actual examples of the changes you claim were made in either the New Testament, or the Old Testament, or the Vedas, Upanishads or any other Hindu scriptures? I know that either the interpretation or the practice have evolved, but were the scriptures actually changed?

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 05, 2006 12:00 AM
237
Homosexuality is tolerated by some Christian churches, not all. However no change in any scripture was made. The parts that made it a sin were just ignored, or under-emphasized or considered to be overruled by other parts of the Bible. No Hindu scriptures were changed in order to abolish casteism. Reforms in religions are important, and I will agree with you that Islam is lagging behind. Reforms do not require changes in scriptures, just as mature discussions do not require calling each other ignoramuses.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 05, 2006 12:00 AM
236
Ping Pong,

>> "They (Muslims) do not have the Hindu, Buddhist and, often, Christian urge to revise scripture and admit that their gospel is not always valid."

Hindus, Buddhists and Christians have not revised any scriptures, but have made more liberal interpretations of what is in the scriptures, leading to a more harmonious relationship with other religions. While some Muslim writers have cautiously started doing so, I would like to see more of it in Islamic teachings. However the Sangh/Elst/Gautier revisions of history are the exact opposite of what one would call liberalization designed to promote more harmonious relationships with other religions.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 05, 2006 12:00 AM
235
Srinivas : "So, the Brits are damned both ways"

As you imply, several parallel versions of Indian Muslim history do exist, some diametrically opposed to others, ranging from the Sangh/Elst/Gautier versions to the versions that proclaim even Aurangzeb and Ghori to be heroes. Considering the gamut, many but not all will see Richard Eaton as a moderate treading the middle ground.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 05, 2006 12:00 AM
234
Kiran,

>> "Yeah right!. People habitually call muslims as anti-liberal with out any rhyme or reason"

The point is not whether they are illiberal or not. The point was that it was not relevant to this discussion.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 05, 2006 12:00 AM
233
"This summary of Eaton's book, a dozen paragraphs, is still in my opinion the most reasonable presentation of the subject. A consensus may not be possible, but if two or three views prevail, this view is most likely to be the one that will be adopted by the Muslims, the seculars, the moderates and the liberals."

Its rather funny: The "secular" historians blame the Brits for potraying Muslim rulers in India in bad light. Their argument is that they wanted the Indians to think of them as more benevolent and benign than the "oppressive sultans".

On the other hand, the Sanghi historians (who are ofcourse "not credible") blame the British for white-washing the history of muslims "to draw them into the political mainstream as a counterbalance of the Hindus and the Congress" - future fodder for the divide & rule strategy.

So, the Brits are damned both ways.

Now, to come to the review - first it is on a webiste called Indianmuslims.org or something like that. So it would be easy to dismiss this as a joke that voice.org is.

Also, there is a highlight about an order that Aurangazeb is supposed to have passed condemning and stopping the persecution of Brahmins - this is supposed to be from Aurangazeb's court records. Surprisingly, the "exploits" of Aurangazeb's generals in temple destructions, that apparently find mention in the court records are overlooked. Infact, there is a denial. The explanation given is that the court historians were "over-zealous to presentt their patron as a protector of the faith".

Finally, on the view that is most likely to be adopted by "Muslims, the seculars, the moderates and the liberals.". Naturally. In India, secularism is defined as anti-BJP / anti-Sangh. So if they say something, then the "seculars" should say the exact opposite.

Finally, Nicholas F Gier writes in "FROM MONGOLS TO MUGHALS: RELIGIOUS VIOLENCE IN INDIA 9TH-18TH CENTURIES"

"In 1692 Aurangzeb did send a direct order that the Jagannath temple be demolished, but local officers were bribed, and all that was accomplished was the closing of temple, which was reopened after Aurangzeb's death in 1707. In 1724 the temple as again threatened, but Ramachandra II faked a conversion to Islam and managed to, once again, to hide the idols. A new Muslim governor brought the image back, primarily so the pilgrim tax would not be disrupted. The governor calculated that nine lakhs of rupees were lost during this time. Once again, economic and political pressures prevented even the most orthodox Muslims from fulfilling the requirements of Islamic law or complying with imperial decrees."

So much for the "order on protecting brahmins".
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Jul 05, 2006 12:00 AM
232
ghulam:
"the habitual labeling of Muslims as irrevocably anti-liberal etc is not quite relevant here"

Yeah right!. People habitually call muslims as anti-liberal with out any rhyme or reason. They run probably the most liberal of all societies in the world. You should look in the mirror.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Jul 05, 2006 12:00 AM
231
Kiran,

>> "Fine company for the Muslims -when it suits them"

The idea was not of "company", but which viewpoint these groups would independently find most consonant with their own positions. You do not expect any of the groups I mentioned to be enthralled by the Sangh/Elst/Gautier position, do you? As a result, the habitual labeling of Muslims as irrevocably anti-liberal etc is not quite relevant here.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 05, 2006 12:00 AM
230
ghulam:
"adopted by the Muslims, the seculars, the moderates and the liberals.
"

Fine company for the Muslims -when it suits them. Though they are likely to slit the throats of "seculars and liberals" ("moderates" is a weasly term when it comes from muslims)when they have the power to do so which is almost all the countries where they are in a majority.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Jul 05, 2006 12:00 AM
229
Old Mac says, "I also posted that link on this thread on July 1 at 9:19:26AM (IST)"

Sorry I missed that. But it bears repetition.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 05, 2006 12:00 AM
228
Ghulam writes:

>>This summary of Eaton's book, a dozen paragraphs, is still in my opinion the most reasonable presentation of the subject.

I also posted that link on this thread on July 1 at 9:19:26AM (IST).
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 05, 2006 12:00 AM
227
This summary of Eaton's book, a dozen paragraphs, is still in my opinion the most reasonable presentation of the subject. A consensus may not be possible, but if two or three views prevail, this view is most likely to be the one that will be adopted by the Muslims, the seculars, the moderates and the liberals.


http://tinyurl.com/p9baz
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 05, 2006 12:00 AM
226
>> "If what you say is right,why don't we do away with all sorts of reservations / affirmative actions for the SCs / STs / OBC s / minoroties ? Why are they still seeking redressal of historical injustices?"

Yes. I believe that the current generation of upper castes don't owe any apology for what their forefathers might have done. I also oppose caste based reservations, and don't have much patience for arguments about historical injustices to support it. I do however support affirmative action for disadvantaged groups, and reservation can be one form of AA. My crieteria for determining backwardness shall be economic and regional, instead of caste.

>> "The Secular historians are saying there was no destruction of temples. Admitting to a historical fact is different from apologising for the same."

Challenging the bigotry of secular historians, and their left leaning agendas, is different than asking current generation of Muslims to apologize for actions that their co-religionist might have indulged in a few centuries ago.

While on the subject, minorities (Muslims in particular), get blamed for actions of secular govts. Some of the unequal laws that agitate so many of us so much (special privileges to minority institutes, Haj subsidy, separate common laws), were not designed by Muslims. It is the govt of the day that brought about these laws. Muslims have just been taking advantage of them, as anyone would. For many of these things, we need to blame the secular crowd.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Jul 05, 2006 12:00 AM
225
Gas Bagai writes:

>>Not a day goes by when you dont whine about the Sanghis , opressing christian missionaries, nuns
etc.

next to your hourly whining about muslims and others?
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 05, 2006 12:00 AM
224
Ping Pong

I agree. The muslim invaders were bbandits of the type we see in Afghanistan, Pakistan and other muslim countries.

They stole to satisfy their greed. That is perhaps understandable,

But destruction of temples was to fullfill their Islamic duties. Damn it , they did it just a few years ago to the Bamiyan Budhas.

Here is a story told me by a Norwegian engineer some years ago.

An Arab seesa rock in the desert. He tries to steal it. Too heavy

He gives uo, and then tries to break it. Too hard.

He gives up, but then shits on it.

The invaders were men of similar mentality.

Thank god the British invaded India, and got rid of the lecherous , dogmatic and bigoted maniacs.
Otherwise we would be like any other backward muslim country.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jul 05, 2006 12:00 AM
223
Old Chimp

In this forum who are the ones BMW, Its the rice christians and followers of Islam.

Not a day goes by when you dont whine about the Sanghis , opressing christian missionaries, nuns
etc. You seem to have lost your wee mind,
Just take a trip to a muslim country and they will make you change your mind

You will crying for your mom, and begging to be taken back by the Hindus if there was no better choice.That ofcource you have, haveing sneaked into Wonderland Zoo.

And I have never written about temple destructions. I know some thing about it, but I do know is that it is the moslems who are paranoid about the Babri Masjid. They will start
riots and killings even over a roadside dargah,

We Hindus have no problems in the West. Your type of poor do. Christians here are not stuck on religion at all, In fact I think they prefer the secular modernised Hindus to religious maniacs .

The bitching on this site is mainly by you.
Being boorish and vulgar will not help you.
No peanuts or bananas for you, and no chatting with your muslim lady chimp for now.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jul 05, 2006 12:00 AM
222
Shankar writes:

>>If what you say is right,why don't we do away with all sorts of reservations / affirmative actions for the SCs / STs / OBC s / minoroties ? Why are they still seeking redressal of historical injustices?

Those policies are not meant to redress historical injustices. Instead, they are meant to redress current injustices with historical roots.

>>The Secular historians are saying there was no destruction of temples. Admitting to a historical fact is different from apologising for the same.

No one to date I know says there were no destruction of temples. However, primary sources do not support temple destruction any where close to the scale that is an article of faith in Chaddi folklore. Actually, those most vociferous about it don't really care about the temples. They only care the historically unsupportable meme is a useful political tool to mobilize throngs of ignorant, illiterate (and some literate) idiots. It dissipates national energy on insignificant sideshows resulting in continued intellectual, political, moral and economic stagnation.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 04, 2006 12:00 AM
221
Al bundy - "Let's get over this victim mentality and desire to seek redressal of historical injustices. It's the 21st century. Let's move on.."

If what you say is right,why don't we do away with all sorts of reservations / affirmative actions for the SCs / STs / OBC s / minoroties ? Why are they still seeking redressal of historical injustices?

The Secular historians are saying there was no destruction of temples. Admitting to a historical fact is different from apologising for the same.
shankar
Mumbai, India
Jul 03, 2006 12:00 AM
220
Ping Pong,

Arguments such as "You did not speak out enough against such and such" are very common in this forum. I try not to indulge in them as far as possible. I have written several times in this forum as well as on the BBC World Forum against the destruction of the Bamiyan statues by the Taliban, and also against the destruction of any place of worship. But that does not mean I will not again be accused by someone or the other soon of being silent on the subject.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 03, 2006 12:00 AM
219
>> "No such anger was expressed by you or any other Muslim I know over the near-complete destruction of large Hindu temples in North India by Muslim rulers."

Guys. We really need to stop holding the current generation of Muslims responsible for what may have happened a few centuries ago, or assume that they owe Hindus an apology for it. Let's get over this victim mentality and desire to seek redressal of historical injustices. It's the 21st century. Let's move on.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Jul 03, 2006 12:00 AM
218
Ping Pong, the dominant Saudi Wahhabis are a fundamentalist sect. I do not know much about them, exept that they do not hold any buildings such as dargahs or mosques to be sacred, and consider that nothing other than God is sacred. Add to that Saudi commercialism, and all you will have are hotels and parking lots.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 03, 2006 12:00 AM
217
Bagai says, "Trying to excercise censorship on Gautier shows a lousy mentality"

I never suggested censoring Gautier, but lying comes so naturally to Bagai, that he does not even know it when he lies.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 03, 2006 12:00 AM
216
Lalit Bagai,

It was really nice of you to say sorry. There was no need. I don't think you wrote anything very offensive. Most of the things that I wrote was an expression of play acting of imaginary hurt sensibilities.

I was not trying to whitewash past atrocities. I was trying to put in perspective. Compared to problems faced in India now, those kind of past events seem not very significant. Still, it is possible that in my enthusiasm and rhetoric I may have gone overboard. If I did and hurt your feelings unnecessarily it is my turn to say sorry.
Prasanth
Cochin, India
Jul 03, 2006 12:00 AM
215
Shankar writes:

>>Voi.org used data referred and indexed by Eaton himself to disprove his own theory of only 80 temples destroyed.

Well, we disagree on VOI’s credentials, qualifications and credibility to pursue the truth in historical matters that could undermine its worldview.

>>The exact number depends on what you assume as the number of temples destroyed in each of the 80 documented incidents,as you rightly pointed out.

But when reconstructing history, you don’t want to assume anything. You might make reasonable inferences from all other existing evidence. But a commitment to truth means to be ready surrender such “assumptions” in light of more evidence or better interpretation of existing evidence.

>>One sample linked earlier says 1000. Even if you assume it is only one temple per incident in the other 79 cases, as Eaton claims, it still is 1079 temples totally and certainly NOT 80 temples as claimed earlier.

You still don’t get it. Eaton claims around 80 “desecrations.” Let’s follow your line of argument. Let’s assume a consensus around 1079 number. Juxtapose that figure next to 60,000. Now, if the goal is to get an accurate scale of Muslim Iconoclasm between 13th and 18th century, which number gives a more accurate picture? More importantly, when a 60,000 figure is used to rile up uneducated louts with free toddy to hate and kill fellow citizens, do you not see a tragedy? For the record, I haven’t seen any other HISTORIAN of repute, using primary sources, to contradict Eaton’s number of “desecrations” significantly enough to change the general picture of the scale of Muslim iconoclasm. It greatly varies with the RSS’s 60,000 mantra.

>>IMO, the message is as important, if not more important, than the messenger. Does not matter whether the messenger is Chaddi, Chaddiless or even reproductive organ less.

I agree. That’s why I said credentials don’t determine truth. In the end, its evidence and argument. However, credentials do matter in assessing overall credibility; and their ability to professionally handle evidence and argue dispassionately. And those who see through the prism of RSS/VHP philosophy, one of victim hood at Muslim hands, have neither an incentive nor ability to see the truth about temple desecration. That is so for the simple reason it undermines their philosophy. All else being the same, is their anti-muslim rhetoric justified by the destruction of 60,000 temples or 80 or 1079? I am not saying Chaddis can’t contribute to our understanding of the topic. But, their contribution will always be at the margin rather than at the core.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 03, 2006 12:00 AM
214
Prasanth writes:

>>Do you know of any comtemporary Hindu sources which talks about temple destruction and similar acts of Islamic conquerors? Not necessarily historical documents or court records, but myths, folk songs or folk knowledge and such.. All the historians that you quote here seems to be using Islamic court records.

Events that seep into popular culture are always interesting pieces of evidence. However, Hindus conceive timelessness as their central reality. Since history is about relationship of events to time, their weakness in that area is explainable. Such an outlook necessarily de-emphasizes and devalues recording and maintaining contemporaneous historical records….an instance of philosophy affecting actions.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 03, 2006 12:00 AM
213
Prasanth

Sorry pal

I had no business writeing as I did.

However youir white washing of past crime is indefensible.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jul 03, 2006 12:00 AM
212
Brother Goolam

Gautier has the right to write what ever he wishes. If the western journalists accept his ideas , then well and good. But ultimately its up to them. They can refuse to believe him

After all there are many Farukis, and Mohammeds in the USA. You can write also. Its your right to speak also.

Trying to excercise censorship on Gautier shows a lousy mentality,

You write a lot of crap yourself, but no body asks you to stop. The pity is that no one accepts your shoody, puerile and dogmatic arguments. And I challenge you to write what you write in an American paper.

It would certainly be revealing for you.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jul 03, 2006 12:00 AM
211
I read Gautiers letter. I find it truthful. and
well argued.

However there is one geezer in this forum who gets burnt up if any thing good is said about Hindus, or India. There are many who think well of both.

Hindu religion has provided yoga as a blessing to all, and I believe it has spread all over USA,
Of cource not in the muslim world. They will shun anything vaguely Hindu.

The pity is that are few who have a good word to say about muslims. And like our resident mullah they are pineing for something good to be said
about them.

No wonder Amaratya Sen, Arundhati are so popular in Pakistan.

But neither will stay in a muslim country.

Frankly I would enjoy seeing Arundhai in a black burqa and black stocking and gloves in Riyadh.
Temp 45 degrees.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jul 03, 2006 12:00 AM
210
To people who converted to christianity or other religion, for the sake of a few cupfuls of rice,
and a dhotis.

We pity you saps, and our sypmpathy goes out to our Hindu brethern who stayed as Hindus despite
all adversity.

To all who claim that christianity is good, read what the Spanish and Portuguese did in their colonies in South America. Proud civilisations were humbled, for the sake of gold.Men and women enslaved , tortured and subjugated. Now these people are turning their back from the religion of their erstwhile masters. Christians missionaries and the authorities worked to empoverish these people.

Today I read in the paper that only 11% of Europeans believe in god. I suppose that they have arrived at this state through introspection aided by education and development.

In dues time the only christians will be the rice christians of India. Blinded by hate and religious parania , they will get to be disliked.

However I dont think that there will be amny like this. I know many christian converts who work in our family. Most of them are very nice, and quite unlike the little weazel who writes here,

I studied also with some christians, who til today are like family.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
209
Old Chimp

Reading you and your hatred for all things Hindu, proves my point that there should be
separation of people by religion in India

Muslims and Christians in some states, and Hindus in the other. Or preferably both kinds should leave India. Jobs cleaning the Vatican are in plenty, and your kind are eminently suited for that.

Believe me most of us depise you thoroughly,
We are tired of your long and insane messages.

Get lost bum
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
208
Old Chimp

Being Sunday I just glimsed through your remarks about the French and the brave muslims who conquered India.

I think Chimp that you are, you are getting to be a big pain. Hindus are tolerant other wise
some one would have rung your stringy neck by now.

Mullah sahib asks how many generations should people live in India to be considered Indians.

For your type you could live as long as you like
any where. You will not be a citizen. You will not be counted in the human population. A chimp you are and a Chimp you will stay.And a very ignorant and foul mouthed chimp you are. Sorry to say so.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
207
Old Chimp

We would like you to tell us a few tales from the zoo. Just ordinary days happening,. All this talk about religion etc, is just not your metier.

Are there any Taliban or RSS chimps. I suppose you get on well with the former, Its the latter who you give you a pain in the butt. But as a good christian, I expect you forgive them,

Tell us your favourite food, I will not ask about clothes. Thats not so important . You are I suppose all dressed as in nature,

Chio for now,
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
206
Old Chimp

I came first, your is the usual reaction.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
205
Prasanth,

Many many volumes and articles have been written on the subject for years by Elst, Gautier and other Sanghi historians, so it is a matter of more than 10 minutes. My half-serious comment was meant to ask where does this process stand now, where is it going and when is it likely to end. It is a highly charged issue and is not likely to promote communal healing. People may claim that once proper accounting has occurred, we can then move on, but this is actually an open-ended process, and some people may see political advantages in keeping it ongoing.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
204
Ghulam Faruki,

You write, "We will still be counting how many temples were demolished, while the Chinese count their newbuilt factories!"

You know some times you can be a bit annoying with your insufferable smugness. Just because someone spends 10 minutes discussing some issue that interests him doesn't mean he cannot use the remaining 23h50min of the day for building new factories and counting them. If you think this 10 min is a waste of time, he will take a shorter break or sleep less. You don't have to worry about it too much.
Prasanth
Cochin, India
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
203
How convenient to wish to elide over the destroyed temples and that China still wants Japan to own up to the atrocities of the past. Why fear the truth? That is the only true liberator. How does it matter in owning up? An honest portrayal in history would also enable us to look all detractors straight in the eye without having to dodge like thieves, showing intellectual dishonesty and moral bankruptcy.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
202
Mac writes

"No, ass-munch. Everyone should speak in favor of the truth based on available evidence; no matter whom it ends up favoring. Such an intellectual liberation still eludes you. You are still a slave on the “Hindus” vs. “Muslims” plantation."

Available evidence?? When Gautier speaks based on "available" evidence, he is denounced as "not being a historian", "a French durnkard" etc etc. Dont lecture me on intellectual liberation, when you yourself are bound in the "80 instances" that Eaton writes and automatically translate them to 80 temples. As for my being a slave on the "Hindu vs.Muslims" plantation, well, I guess you are also one on the "Hindus vs the rest" plantation.

"He’s not even a credible hysteric."

It must break his heart that the great Old Mac thinks this about him. I hope he can say "30 Holy Mary's", gulp "30 Bloody Marys" and redeem himself. Anyway for an evangelist, a sheep that leaves the flock is always "black".

"How shockingly unexpected!!! Especially since Gautier publicly fantasizes about unifying Afghanistan to Burma and Sri Lanka under a saffron flag. To paraphrase Naipaul, small men, big talk."

Oh, so what happened to your defence of people "who are entitled and can express opinions". If I remember, your Pope wanted to "harvest the souls of the millions in Asia" -and calls it the divine mandate - may be small men do talk big.

"Those two quotes prove the reputation of the French is well established before I was born; and my contempt for one Frenchman has a distinguished pedigree. Since your brain can’t see beyond “who’s for Hindus and who isn’t,” I wouldn’t expect you to get it."

End of the day, you made some pretty offensive comments about the French (including bringing in your pet subject of prostitutes). What would you say, if someone make some pretty offensive comments about "Afro-Americans" just because he was mugged by one and then claim "distinguished pedigree" for the contempt he has.

If you had to "express your contempt" for Gautier, why bring in his nationality? Maybe you wanted to earn some "brownie points" by showing "who is for Bush and who isn't" while ordering some "Freedom Fries".
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
201
What Gautier was doing with his infamous letter was to try to infuence other Western journalists to mute their criticism of the sangh and to try to prejudice them against Indian Muslims. These are not the actions of a historian with integrity.

We will still be counting how many temples were demolished, while the Chinese count their newbuilt factories!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
200
I read Gautiers letter. Every word is truthful.
Why is Mullah Faruki so riled.

Most westerners who live in India will vouch for it.And then ask what other westerners liveing in muslim countries.

Gaulatier is truthful and courageous. In India muslims are treated quite gently. Look at the crazy muslim minister who offered a huge amount of money as prize fro killing Danish cartoonists.
Everyone was falling on their face trying to justify him. Rushdie is not allowed because hundreds of thousands of muslim start angry demonstrations.Most can not read English.

Politicians use Bin Laden look alikes. Muslims can stop traffic every friday by useing streets as prayer grounds. This would not be permitted in muslim countries, and especially not in Europe.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
199
Srinivas and others

There is a lot of talk of what the muslims did say many hundred years ago.

I imagine that those guys were probably many shades worse then the Taliban, the Janjawid of Sudan, the Sadamm Hussains.

Some Hindus dislike the muslims, but just ask the Serbs, and the Greeks,Ask the Austrians who faced the Turks at the gate of Veinna, and dont want to admit Turkey into the EU.

Go back a hundred years or so and the Turks killed a million and a half Armenians. Ofcorce the Germans and the communists were far worse.
But there is little to choose between them.

To Prasanth who is trying to whitewash past and present muslim crimes, I wish people like him had to face the Taliban, or the Janjawid.
Glib talk by so called liberals come cheap. But
its false and hypocritical.

The liberals in Europee who were once so enthusistic about muslims have changed their mind, and now feel guilty of their naive way of thinking.

Let face the crimes of all honestly, as most of us do wrt the dismal and cruel Hindu customs.
There is no hope for anyone , unless one is prepared to admit ones guilt . Only then can one write a new chapter.

The prophet himself faught in wars , with a sword
in his hand. He killed a lot of people himself, and took many women as prisoners. Some of the
pretty ones ended as concubines.This is written and spoken of.

To deny that the muslims demolished Hindu temples is absurd. That was one of their ways of showing they were true muslims.

All liberal in India should be shipped to Sudan and face militant Islam on horseback, camels, and armed jeeps. Who is the first to volunteer.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
198
Old Mac - "Second, voi.org is a joke"

Voi.org used data referred and indexed by Eaton himself to disprove his own theory of only 80 temples destroyed.

The exact number depends on what you assume as the number of temples destroyed in each of the 80 documented incidents,as you rightly pointed out.

One sample linked earlier says 1000. Even if you assume it is only one temple per incident in the other 79 cases, as Eaton claims, it still is 1079 temples totally and certainly NOT 80 temples as claimed earlier.

IMO, the message is as important, if not more important, than the messenger. Does not matter whether the messenger is Chaddi,Chaddiless or even reproductive organ less.
shankar
Mumbai, India
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
197
All who can help,

Do you know of any comtemporary Hindu sources which talks about temple destruction and similar acts of Islamic conquerors? Not necessarily historical documents or court records, but myths, folk songs or folk knowledge and such.. All the historians that you quote here seems to be using Islamic court records.

Prasanth
Cochin, India
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
196
Lalit Bagai,

Who are you trying to fool? Given a chance to apololize for making derogatory and treacherous remarks about South Indians you come up with inanae patronizing remarks about South Indians and South Indian Brahmans.

To refresh your memory, let me qoute you..
" you are country bumpkin; liveing down south, you would not understand".

What is the living south part that makes one a country bumpkin who is incapable of understanding your words? Is it the air or the water or the people themselves? I would have understood it if you questioned a persons' inability to read and understand English sentences. But questioning the region where someone lives? This might be a sad news for you, but south Indians consider themselves to be Indians.

What makes you think that a person like you who does not even believe in the unity of integrity of India can speak for Indians? Isn't traitor, regional hate monger etc. appropriate descriptions for you?
Prasanth
Cochin, India
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
195
Just shows how bereft of any logic the old moron is.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
194
Old Chimp

Why are you so paranoid about Hindus. No body in the fastidicious West has any thing against us.
So whats the matter.

If white blond blue eyed christians think we are OK, why are you so paranoid.

Do as your white christians buddies.
Say Hail Mary three times, burn a candle, and repent your insane tirades.

I like you my furry friend. Am quite worried about you though.

However I heard a saying dureing a college debate in England Its the smallest cock which
crows the loudest..Does that apply to you.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
193
Ajit writes:

>>Old Moron ejaculates:

Very creative. Did you have to take a day-off work to come up with that gem?

>>Speak for yourself, you pathetic creature. Your inability to parse required no further proof.

nor that you can write a sentence that relates to the one that precedes it.

>>The rest of your unreadable garbage reposted repeatedly demonstrates why you are such a loser.

it does, huh? Everyone will have to guess why... since your post doesn't bother to say. Another code-monkey, unacquainted with deodorant, who fancies himself to be a Robert Frost.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
192
Srinivas writes:

>>Hmm, if someone speaks in favour of Hindus, he automatically becomes a Sanghi mouthpiece. Then I guess, by that logic, all Muslims who support (or fail to condemn) terrorist actions too are terrorists.

No, ass-munch. Everyone should speak in favor of the truth based on available evidence; no matter whom it ends up favoring. Such an intellectual liberation still eludes you. You are still a slave on the “Hindus” vs. “Muslims” plantation.

>>Anyway, that's besides the point. Gautier may not be a creditable historian.

He’s not even a credible hysteric.

>>But I can undertand why Gautier got your goat. He does say a lot of unpleasant things about the Islamic invasion of India.

How shockingly unexpected!!! Especially since Gautier publicly fantasizes about unifying Afghanistan to Burma and Sri Lanka under a saffron flag. To paraphrase Naipaul, small men, big talk.

>> As for Mac, Gautier did not piss off Mark Twain or Norman Schwartzkopf. Still they did make some pretty offensive remarks about the French. So your quoting them to make a point against Gautier is ridiculous. Now go and have some "Freedom Fries"

Those two quotes prove the reputation of the French is well established before I was born; and my contempt for one Frenchman has a distinguished pedigree. Since your brain can’t see beyond “who’s for Hindus and who isn’t,” I wouldn’t expect you to get it.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
191
Prasanth

In fact I admire South Indians generally.

They are normally well mannered, low key and intelligent. South Indian brahmins are an elite class , In Boston the elite was referred to as Boston Brahmins.

However its not your fault pal. There is a bad apple in the barrel most often.

However I am sure you can improve yourself.

Sraty ny behaveing normally. Your defence of muslim atroticities is weird. Whats the matter
with you.

Old Chimp should not be blamed. He has problems.
His muslim mate has quit him, and he is mighty frustrated.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
190
Old Moron ejaculates:

>>Nobody knows what the
>>hell you are talking about.

Speak for yourself, you pathetic creature. Your inability to parse required no further proof. The rest of your unreadable garbage reposted repeatedly demonstrates why you are such a loser.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
189
Gas Bagai writes:

>>Prasanth, I have from brief readings decided that you are country bumpkin.

And I have decided you are a farm animal.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
188
Lalit Bagai,

Oh, I see. Any one from South India must be a country bumpkin. Not everyone is fortunate to be a noble North Indian. Do you even care for India and Indians? Still I am amazed at your cheek to suggest such a thing. You want everyone to believe that you are one of those with solutions to all of worlds and India's problems. If you don't know anything or if you don't care about anything, shutting up is a good option. You are not one of those men of action and few words as you claim. You are nothing but man of no-action and a lot of idiotic words.
Prasanth
Cochin, India
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
187
Old Chimps OK.

Its just that when he is out of peanuts or his muslim mate is nagging him, that he gets flustered and hits out, just as playful chimps
do.

But I like Old Chimp. At times he is quite sane.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jul 02, 2006 12:00 AM
186
Prasanth

I have from brief readings decided that you are country bumpkin.

My not wearing ethic clothing and liveing like other Danes proves my point, that one should not make a spectacle of one self.There is no other way.

However muslims on the street dress in their own clothing, some women wear a full burqua.

But liveing down south, you would not understand.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
185
Lalit Bagai,

In Denmark, why don't you walk around the street wearing saffron colored T-shirts with the following written written words.

At the front: I AM A PROUD HINDU (Please don't confuse me with muslims)
At the back: I HATE MUSLIMS

This will go someway in soothing your fears. Why, all the respect Danes will show you for wearing this will tempt some Muslims to become your followers....
Prasanth
Cochin, India
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
184
Tendulkar

If you were referring your remarks to our resident mullah, then you have my support.

However on the whole without Brother Goolam this forum would become like a knitting club for
middle aged house wives.

Prasanath would be selected to head this club.
I just glance at his messages, and they can put anyone to sleep.

Long ,long , long messages with some crazy ideas. However I am too lazy to read him or Old Chimp.

I liked Ping Pong.s message about the toads.

By the way after the killing of Ghazla Khan the 18 year Pakistani girl. the Danish government
is now going to take strong measures to protect
young muslims girls. The police has been told to
provide them immediate help, and the social authorities have been similarly advised.

I had an idea, Maybe these girls should be provided a help line. Call progressive muslim women in their own countries. A friendly voice from home can do wonders.

Brother Goolam this is something for you/
Start a help line for poor and helpless muslim teenagers.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
183
srinivas...

the volume of crap, this mac chursn out is just mind blowing...
i really enjoyed ur jibe at mac, the monkey and peanut one.
but now with all his abundant unlimited biased rantings, i am starting to believe what you had said.. "throwing peanuts at monkey to make it mad and jump around "

:-)
bhushan
richmond, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
182
BTW, Gautier seems to have committed a cardinal sin like Seema Sirohi.

Seema wrote against the pope and Gautier against conversions. And hence they have earned the "wrath" of Mac.
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
181
Koenraad Elst: Hindu Apologist
Francois Gautier : Sanghi Mouthpiece
Voi.org : A joke & a place to push crap churned out by Elst, Sita Ram Goel, Frawley, N.S. Rajaram, Yvette Rosser and Francois Gautier.

Highly original responses from Mac & Ghulam.

Read what Elst writes in a paper about Eaton:"Thus, in his list, we find mentioned as one instance: “1094: Benares, Ghurid army”. Did the Ghurid army work one instance of temple destruction? Eaton provides his source and there we read that in Benares, the Ghurid royal army “destroyed nearly one thousand temples, and raised mosques on their foundations”. "

The paper that Elst quotes is “Temple desecration and Indo-Muslim states”. by Eaton. (Actually, Eaton gives the date as 1194 and not 1094 as Elst mentions or 1994 as the voi website mentions - link www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1725/17250620.pdf )

The source he quotes for this is Taj al-ma'athir and apprently page 223/224. Now Elst claims that the same source says that "nearly one thousand temples were destroyed".

Unfortunately, attempts of accessing this page 223 on the web have been unsuccessful. Probably one of the other fortunate souls may be able to. Eaton too quotes of recorded instances of "temple destructions". He has not claimed that 80 temples have been destroyed.

Having said that, let's look at it this way - Benares is considered as the most holy place of Hindus. The place is filled with temples. So, would an invading army, intent on destroying temples, destory just one temple there. And if it was only one temple they were after, it should have been a very important and famous temple and that would have definitely found a place in the mentions of the "credible, non-sanghi-mouth-piece" historians.

Ghulam, for whatever reason, I am unable to access the link that you have sent. Would appreciate if you can give me the original source of the link or the text of the letter.

As for Mac, Gautier did not piss off Mark Twain or Norman Schwartzkopf. Still they did make some pretty offensive remarks about the French. So your quoting them to make a point against Gautier is ridiculous. Now go and have some "Freedom Fries"
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
180
Srinivas, here is Gautier's letter :


http://tinyurl.com/obabh
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
179
Ghulam writes:"Gautier has no credentials as a historian, but does have credentials as a liar. He even wrote to other Western journalists to lie on the eve of Prime Minister Vajpayee's visit to Washington by underplaying the harrassment of Christian missionaries in India as well as the massacre in Gujarat. He is a Sanghi mouthpiece. "

Wow.... strong words Ghulam. Sanghi mouth piece and all that. Hmm, if someone speaks in favour of Hindus, he automatically becomes a Sanghi mouthpiece. Then I guess, by that logic, all Muslims who support (or fail to condemn) terrorist actions too are terrorists.

Anyway, that's besides the point. Gautier may not be a creditable historian. Atleast he quoted a source (Aurangazeb's court documents) for his claim that Aurangazeb was a temple destroyer.

Can you give the exact instance of his writing to "western journalists" asking them to "lie about and underplay" things in India? I would sure like to look at some of this stuff. Anyway, historians (credible or otherwise) do have the habit of underplaying things.

Darlymple quotes Eaton as saying only 80 temples have been destroyed. Shankar has given an extract where Eaton is supposed to have documented 80 instances. So, would you say that Darlymple too is underplaying things?

But I can undertand why Gautier got your goat. He does say a lot of unpleasant things about the Islamic invasion of India.
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
178
Shankar writes:

>>So according to Eaton,
>>1.If the Islamic Scholars were Truthful and were sticking to facts, then it can be upto 80 x 1000 = 80,000 temples destroyed.

As long as you are detached from facts, why just a 1,000? Why not 10,000 or 100,000 or even a 1,000,000? times (into) 80?

>>2. If they were writing under influence and exaggerating wildly, then it is 80 x 500 = 40,000 temples destroyed.

Or 5,000 or 50,000 or 500,000?

>>3.If they were lying once in a while to their masters, to earn an Extra Hooka or an extra jug of wine or an extra virgin, you can take an average of 750..i.e 80 x 750 = 60,000 temples destroyed..

or 7,500 or 75,000, or 750,000?

>>>>Old Mac - "nothing supports the RSS nostrum that 60,000 temples were looted/destroyed other than hot air. ."

>>Hot air?

Hot air!
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
177
Repost - corrected

Adi writes:

>>We have recorded literature that is more than 2,000 years old at the least. Where the hell did you get the impression that "rape, house breaking etc. " were ok in the past? I am not aware of any Indian document that says these are alright - have you heard of the words "Dharma" or "Dharma Yuddha"?

I also heard that truth and morality were relative. Therefore, everyone interprets their own Dharma their own way…. resulting in intellectual patterns roughly similar to traffic on Indian roads. There too, everyone interprets the Road Dharma their own way.

>> The Muslim invasions of India happened 1,300 years ago.

If you pulled your head out of your ass, you would know how it got started. Here’s it is in a nutshell:

“India remained blissfully oblivious to Islam’s existence during the first two decades of that new faith’s vigorous growth. Arab merchants, however, brought home enough South Asian wealth to whet the appetites of Muslim warriors, soon to be infuriated as well by Sindi Attacks upon Muslim shipping. The Arab commander of the first Islamic force to reach India reported from Sind to his caliph in 644 that “water is scarce, the fruits are poor, and the robbers are bold; if a few troops are sent they will be slain, if many, they will starve.” This pessimistic assessment postponed further attempted Muslim conquest until 711 A.D., when piratic plundering of a richly laden Arab ship as it passed the mouth of the Indus so enraged the Ummayad governor of Iraq that he launched an expedition of 6,000 Syrian horses and an equal number of Iraqi camels against the rajas of Sind. The Arab force swiftly conquered Brahmanabad and its leader saw to it that “the infidels” (kaffirs) he found there either converted to Islam or perished.” –Stanley Wolpert, A New History of India (2000).

So translating it into a cartoon that you can understand, the Sindi Rajas (not to be confused with today’s Indian Hindus) messed with the wrong people (not to be confused with today’s Indian Muslims) and gave them a reason to make the arduous trek to India. Then, they kicked Sindi ass, liked the place enough to stick around; until the Brits ejected their successors. In other words, Sindi Rajas picked a fight they couldn’t win. So, the circumstances of Muslims invading an area (not to be confused with what later had to be given an identity and unity called “India” by the Brits) aren’t the one-sided Chaddi mythology.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
176
Repost - corrected

Part I of II

Gautier, Grand Marquis du Maird, writes:

>>While there is no doubt that the ghastly murder of Graham Stewart Staines, the Australian missionary and his two innocent sons, (blah blah blah )…raises several important questions, which can only be answered by a Westerner, as any Indian who would dare utter the below statements would immediately be assimilated with the Sangh Parivar :

I see no reason why a Frenchman can’t be a Chaddi. Ideology rather than ethnology determines membership. So, his claim that “only be answered by a Westerner” pretty much sums up the intellectual calibre of this frenchie. Time for French Jokes.

“France has neither winter nor summer nor morals. Apart from these drawbacks it is a fine country. France has usually been governed by prostitutes." ---Mark Twain

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion." --Norman Schwartzkopf

>>Is the life of a White Man infinitely more important and dear to the Indian Media than the lives of a hundred Indians?

The life of any man who leaves a comfortable home to help lepers halfway around the world when there’s nothing in it for him and putting the lives of his children in peril is indeed infinitely more important. So, as Homer Simpson puts it, what else can we expect from a cheese-eating surrender monkey?

>>Or to put it differently : is the life of a Christian more sacred than the lives of many Hindus ?

Same as above… regardless of religious labels.

>>It would seem so. Because we all remember not so long ago, whether in Pendjab or in Kashmir, how militants would stop buses and kill all the Hindus - men, women and children. It even happened recently, when a few of the last courageous Hindus to dare remain in Kashmir, were savagely slaughtered in a village, as were the labourers in Himachal Pradesh. Yet, very few voices were raised in the Indian Press condemning it - at least there never was such an outrage as provoked by the murder of Staines.

Let’s see comparing a self-inflicted political wound versus a triple-homicide unequivocally motivated by religious hatred is going to win him neither a pavilion on the Champs-Elysee nor another mistress named Babette.

>>When Hindus are killed in pogroms in Pakistan or Bangladesh (please read again Taslima Nasreen’s book “Lajja”), we never witness in the Indian Media the like of yesterday’s tear jerking, posthumous “interview” of Mr Staines in Star News. Does this really mean, as many of the early colonialists and missionaries thought, that the life of a hundred Hindus is not worth a tear?

They are certainly worth more than any tears that a perpetually drunk Frenchman could shed.

>>This massive outcry on the “atrocities against the minorities” raises also doubts about the quality and integrity of Indian journalism. Take for instance the rape of the four nuns in Jhabua….

>>Take the Wayanad incident in Northern Kerala. It was reported that a priest and four women were beaten up and a Bible stolen by “fanatical” Hindus.

>>Finally, even if Dara Singh does belong to the Bajrang Dal, it is doubtful if the 100 others accused do.

Why is that doubtful?

>>What is more probable, is that like in Wayanad, it is a case of converted tribals versus non-converted tribals, of pent-up jealousies, of old village feuds and land disputes.

Where’s the search for alternate explanations in Himachal Prachesh, Kashmir, Pakistan and Bangladesh and weight of the evidence? Instead, we have boilerplate clichés of “brave Hindoos” and ‘savage slaughter.”
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
175
Repost - corrected

Part II of II

>> It is also an outcome of what - it should be said - are the aggressive methods of the Pentecost and seventh Adventists missionaries, known for their muscular ways of converting.

Charred remains of human beings burned alive are an outcome of what again?

>>And this raises the most important question : why does the Indian press always reflect a westernised point of view ?

May be because truth doesn’t depend on a compass direction…

>>Why does India’s intellectual “elite”, the majority of which happens to be Hindu, always come down so hard on their own culture, their own religion, their own brothers and sisters ? Is it because of an eternal feeling of inferiority, which itself is a legacy of British colonisation ?

Perhaps pursuit of the truth is worthy end in itself and nonsense like “come down so hard on…” isn't important?

>>Is it because they considers Hindus to be inferior beings - remember the words of Claudius Buccchanan, a chaplain attached to the East India Company : "...Neither truth, nor honesty, honour, gratitude, nor charity, is to be found in the breast of a Hindoo"!

I can’t say that about every Hindoo…but I can name a few...along with Muslims, Christians and others. But, only a Frenchman, sipping on the same free toddy as the Chaddis, could come up such inferences.

>>Is it because the Indian Press is still deeply influenced by Marxist and communist thoughts planted by Nehruvianism, like it is in Kerala, where the communists have shamelessly and dangerously exploited the Christians issue for their own selfish purpose ?

It might seems that way to a shill for Hindu Nationalism…

>>Whatever it is, the harm is done. Because even though it is not the truth which has been reported from Jhabua, from Wayanad or from the Keonjhar district in Orissa, it has been passed-off as the truth and it has been believed to be so by the masses…

I’d prefer him pulling his ass out of his head before venturing to interpret the beliefs of the masses.

>>And finally, Christianity has always striven on martyrdom, on being persecuted. It was so in Rome, it was so in Africa, it is so in India.

That certainly makes murder laws moot, doesn’t it?

>>Before the murder of Mr Staines, the Christian story was slowly dying; the culprits of the Jhabua rape would have been condemned and the Wayanad fraud exposed. In one stroke the burning of Graham Stewart Staines has revived the controversy and insured that it does not die for a long time.

Oh, hell! What are few charred bodies next to good PR?

>>Was the joy of martyrdom for the cause he fought for 34 years his last thought before dying ?

Or that his babies were burning to death…

One last joke inspired by Gautier’s final remark.
-Five surgeons are discussing who makes the best patients to operate on.
-The first surgeon says, "I like to see accountants on my operating table, because when you open them up, everything inside is numbered,"
-The second responds, "Yeah, but you should try electricians. Everything inside them is color-coded,"
-The third surgeon says, "No, I really think librarians are the best; everything inside them is in alphabetical order."
-The fourth surgeon chimes in: "You know, I like construction workers. They always understand when you have a few parts left over at the end and when the job takes longer than you said it would."
-But the fifth surgeon, Dr. Morris Fishbein, shuts them all up when he observes: "The French are the easiest to operate on. There's no guts, no heart, no balls and no spine. Plus the head and ass are interchangeable."

Enough maligning of a wonderful nation with many fabulous contributions just because of a shithead like Gautier.

In short, this clown isn’t worthy to carry the shoes of Dalrymple and Eaton when it comes to history.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
174

http://content.cdlib.or....depth=100&brand=eschol


I found this monograph may be of interest to those who, like myself, was unware that Bengalis are the second largest ethnic group to have adopted Islam after Arabs. But the bigger prize is realizing that real history, in the hands of grown ups, is irresistably captivating.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
173
Here's Yoginder Sikand's review of Eaton's book.


http://www.indianmuslims.info/?q=node/111


I found the order issed by Aurangzeb to be of particular interest.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
172
Adi writes:

>> We have recorded literature that is more than 2,000 years old at the least. Where the hell did you get the impression that "rape, house breaking etc. " were ok in the past? I am not aware of any Indian document that says these are alright - have you heard of the words "Dharma" or "Dharma Yuddha"?

I also heard that truth and morality was relative. Therefore, everyone interprets their own Dharma their own way…. resulting in intellectual patterns roughly similar to traffic on Indian roads. There too, everyone interprets the Road Dharma their own way.

>> The Muslim invasions of India happened 1,300 years ago.

If you pulled your head out of your ass, you would know how it got started. Here’s it is in a nutshell:

“Indian remained blissfully oblivious to Islam’s existence during the first two decades of that new faith’s vigorous growth. Arab merchants, however, brought home enough South Asian wealth to whet the appetites of Muslim warriors, soon to be infuriated as well by Sindi Attacks upon Muslim shipping. The Arab commander of the first Islamic force to reach India reported from Sind to his caliph in 644 that “water is scarce, the fruits are poor, and the robbers are bold; if a few troops are sent they will be slain, if many, they will starve.” This pessimistic assessment postponed further attempted Muslim conquest until 711 A.D., when piratic plundering of a richly laden Arab ship as it passed the mouth of the Indus so enraged the Ummayad governor of Iraq that he launched an expedition of 6,000 Syrian horses and an equal number of Iraqi camels against the rajas of Sind. The Arab force swiftly conquered Brahmanabad and its leader saw to it that “the infidels” (kaffirs) he found there either converted to Islam or perished.” –Stanley Wolpert, A New History of India (2000).

So translating it into a cartoon that you can understand, the Sindi Rajas (not to be confused with today’s Indian Hindus) messed with the wrong people (not to be confused with today’s Indian Muslims) and gave them a reason to make the arduous trek to India. Then, they kicked Sindi ass, liked the place and decided to stick around; until the Brits ejected their successors. In other words, Sindi Rajas picked a fight they couldn’t win. So, the circumstances of Muslims invading an area (not to be confused with what later had to be given an identity and unity called “India” by Brits) aren’t as one-sided as Chaddi mythology makes it out to be.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
171
Ganesan writes:

>>Its been 10 YEARS FOLKS!! Has anyone countered a SINGLE instance in the book that is a lie?

Has there been a single instance of it being read?
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
170
Ganesan writes:

>>Shourie quotes extensively from the works of Ambedkar and he simply provides the context of those passages. Again HE DOES NOT LIE.
Sita Ram Goel and ELst DO NOT LIE. The marxists historians do!

Of course not....they have special circuitry built into their brains that innoculates them from both lies and mistakes.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
169
Ganesan writes:

>>Aurobindo said that the biggest problem in India was intellectual laziness.

I have been saying what Auro had said though I arrived at my conclusion independently. And you are a living proof of it.

>>And the likes of Khan, KNPanikkar, Thapar are ample proof of that.

Except for the three, the other billion+, including Chaddi "Historians," are exempt from the man's observation?
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
168
Ganesan writes:

>>>>"Is Koenrad Elst a reliable historian"?

>>Why dont you go ahead and prove he is not?

He's not a historian in the first place. Thus whether he is a reliable or unreliable one is moot. He's just another guy with an opinion. As the saying goes, "opinions are like assholes, everyone has one." Its analysis that counts.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
167
Ajit writes:

>>So typical of the low-life moaner: when there is no argument left, when cold facts admitted by the "defence lawyer" (Eaton, in this case) himself are used to blow the case apart, what is the ruse left? Why, throw mud at the prosecutor of course! So typical of the 'slimey seculars' who give secularism a bad name. It is not who but what is being talked about that is of relevance.

Talking to yourself is a sign of mental health deterioration. Nobody knows what the hell you are talking about. So Ernest Hemingway, write to make contact with others....not yourself.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
166
Adi writes:

>>Old Monkey's co-religionists, the worshippers of the

Be careful, I might be one of your deities. I might smote you in your next life to be a donkey that goes in circle. The only way to avoid a shitty karma is to crack open a whole bunch of coconuts.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
165
Ajit,

>>As for Old Moron and where he learnt his history from, well, one just has to look at his comprehension and parsing skills and how he has to peddle one draft of badly written prose after another to satisfy his own pathetic standards to figure out that the guy is barely literate.

You are just an Ernest Hemingway with that sentence, no?
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
164
Ajit writes:

>>I think the problem is not that people want all those temples to be rebuilt, but at the sheer denial of history, and how it is sought to be airbrushed or rationalised away with pathetic moral equivalence being drawn. There is no need to worry about what happened in the past. The truth would free us all - and it does not mean any of the present generations having to atone or apologise for the sin of those that were guilty in the past.

But somebody will have to apologize for bogus interpretation of the past to justify their current chauvanistic policies.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
163
Part I of II

Gautier, Grand Marquis du Maird, writes:

>>While there is no doubt that the ghastly murder of Graham Stewart Staines, the Australian missionary and his two innocent sons, (blah blah blah )…raises several important questions, which can only be answered by a Westerner, as any Indian who would dare utter the below statements would immediately be assimilated with the Sangh Parivar :

I see no reason why a Frenchman can’t be a Chaddi. Ideology rather than ethnology determines membership. So, his claim that “only be answered by a Westerner” pretty much sums up the intellectual calibre of this frenchie. Time for French Jokes.

“France has neither winter nor summer nor morals. Apart from these drawbacks it is a fine country. France has usually been governed by prostitutes." ---Mark Twain

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion." --Norman Schwartzkopf

>>Is the life of a White Man infinitely more important and dear to the Indian Media than the lives of a hundred Indians?

The life of any man who leaves a comfortable home and a lucrative profession to help lepers halfway around the world when combined with there’s nothing in it for him and danger the lives of his children is infinitely more important. So, as Homer Simpson puts it, what else can we expect from a cheese-eating surrender monkey?

>>Or to put it differently : is the life of a Christian more sacred than the lives of many Hindus ?

Same as above….without regard to religion.

>>It would seem so. Because we all remember not so long ago, whether in Pendjab or in Kashmir, how militants would stop buses and kill all the Hindus - men, women and children. It even happened recently, when a few of the last courageous Hindus to dare remain in Kashmir, were savagely slaughtered in a village, as were the labourers in Himachal Pradesh. Yet, very few voices were raised in the Indian Press condemning it - at least there never was such an outrage as provoked by the murder of Staines.

Let’s see comparing a self-inflicted political cauldron versus a triple-homicide of unequivocally motivated by religious hatred isn’t going to win him neither a pavilion on the Champs-Elysee nor another mistress named Babette.

>>When Hindus are killed in pogroms in Pakistan or Bangladesh (please read again Taslima Nasreen’s book “Lajja”), we never witness in the Indian Media the like of yesterday’s tear jerking, posthumous “interview” of Mr Staines in Star News. Does this really mean, as many of the early colonialists and missionaries thought, that the life of a hundred Hindus is not worth a tear?

They are certainly worth more than any tears that a perpetually drunk Frenchman could shed.

>>This massive outcry on the “atrocities against the minorities” raises also doubts about the quality and integrity of Indian journalism. Take for instance the rape of the four nuns in Jhabua….

>>Take the Wayanad incident in Northern Kerala. It was reported that a priest and four women were beaten up and a Bible stolen by “fanatical” Hindus.

>>Finally, even if Dara Singh does belong to the Bajrang Dal, it is doubtful if the 100 others accused do.

Why is that doubtful?

>>What is more probable, is that like in Wayanad, it is a case of converted tribals versus non-converted tribals, of pent-up jealousies, of old village feuds and land disputes.

Where’s the search for alternate explanations in Himachal Prachesh, Kashmir, Pakistan and Bangladesh and weighs the evidence? Instead, we have boilerplate “brave Hindoos” and ‘savage slaughter.”
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
162
Part II of II

>> It is also an outcome of what - it should be said - are the aggressive methods of the Pentecost and seventh Adventists missionaries, known for their muscular ways of converting.

Charred remains of humans burned alive are an outcome of what again?

>>And this raises the most important question : why does the Indian press always reflect a westernised point of view ?

May be because truth doesn’t depend on a compass direction…

>>Why does India’s intellectual “elite”, the majority of which happens to be Hindu, always come down so hard on their own culture, their own religion, their own brothers and sisters ? Is it because of an eternal feeling of inferiority, which itself is a legacy of British colonisation ?

May be they think pursuit of truth is worthy end in itself?

>>Is it because they considers Hindus to be inferior beings - remember the words of Claudius Buccchanan, a chaplain attached to the East India Company : "...Neither truth, nor honesty, honour, gratitude, nor charity, is to be found in the breast of a Hindoo"!

I can’t say that about every Hindoo…but I can name a few...along with Muslims, Christians and others to join that cadre. But, only a Frenchman sipping on the same free toddy as the Chaddis could come up such inferences.

>>Is it because the Indian Press is still deeply influenced by Marxist and communist thoughts planted by Nehruvianism, like it is in Kerala, where the communists have shamelessly and dangerously exploited the Christians issue for their own selfish purpose ?

Or it could be that’s what it seems to an apologist for Hindu Nationalism…

>>Whatever it is, the harm is done. Because even though it is not the truth which has been reported from Jhabua, from Wayanad or from the Keonjhar district in Orissa, it has been passed-off as the truth and it has been believed to be so by the masses…

I guess he would be an expert at falsehoods, no?

>>And finally, Christianity has always striven on martyrdom, on being persecuted. It was so in Rome, it was so in Africa, it is so in India.

That certainly makes murder laws moot, doesn’t it?

>>Before the murder of Mr Staines, the Christian story was slowly dying; the culprits of the Jhabua rape would have been condemned and the Wayanad fraud exposed. In one stroke the burning of Graham Stewart Staines has revived the controversy and insured that it does not die for a long time.

Oh, hell! What are few charred bodies next to good PR?

>>Was the joy of martyrdom for the cause he fought for 34 years his last thought before dying ?

Or that his babies were burning to death…

One last French joke inspired by Gautier:
-Five surgeons are discussing who makes the best patients to operate on.
-The first surgeon says, "I like to see accountants on my operating table, because when you open them up, everything inside is numbered,"
-The second responds, "Yeah, but you should try electricians. Everything inside them is color-coded,"
-The third surgeon says, "No, I really think librarians are the best; everything inside them is in alphabetical order."
-The fourth surgeon chimes in: "You know, I like construction workers. They always understand when you have a few parts left over at the end and when the job takes longer than you said it would."
-But the fifth surgeon, Dr. Morris Fishbein, shuts them all up when he observes: "The French are the easiest to operate on. There's no guts, no heart, no balls and no spine. Plus the head and ass are interchangeable."

Enough maligning of a wonderful nation with many fabulous contributions just because of a shithead like Gautier.

In short, this clown isn’t fit to carry the shoes of Dalrymple and Eaton when it comes to history.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
161
Srinivas writes:

>>As per Francois Gautier "The number of temples destroyed by Aurangzeb is counted in 4, if not 5 figures. This is a small excerpt of his own official court chronicles….

>>Looks like someone got their math wrong. Maybe the great Englishman is right. And the court historians of Aurangazeb just went overboard writing about the "conquests" of their emperor.

Francois Gautier, an unhindu French journalist with strange enthusiasm for Hindu Nationalism, next to Dalrymple and Eaton as historians looks like a low-rent hack next to professionals and an amateurish enthusiast next to scholars. In other words, Francois starts with a gaping handicap of credibility and stature. Nevertheless, formal credentials aren’t determinative; evidence and argument are what matters. But he self-immolates with his ability to analyze. (sample in another post). I want the big picture; the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth about the extent of Muslim iconoclasm during both conquest/rule. Whether Ali Khan or Abu Tarab are telling the truth or merely boasting will have to be assessed in light of all other evidence.

But I think a lot of Chaddis will vociferously chant like frogs on this issue. On the one hand, if they gave a damn about temples, they should be happy if the truth is that 60,000 weren’t destroyed (assuming a fixed definition for “temple.”) But, on the other hand, their frenzied energy belies their real concern. Why? They are never interested in the truth; just interested in a rhetorical cudgel to demonize today’s Muslims, Indian Muslims. Damn the facts.

Speaking of truth, I remember an editorial cartoon at the height of Clinton-Lewinsky scandal. Clinton, stands in front of a microphone, wags his finger and says, “I didn’t have any kind of relationship with ‘that woman.’” The next frame shows him standing in front of a statue of “that woman” bearing the shield of “Truth.” The Chaddis have never sought a relationship with “that woman” either.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
160
Selvan writes:

>>There is a difference between looting images and installing the idols in their own temples.. Narasimha Pallavan did that.. I don't think it involved any religious reasons..

>>It is different than religion dictated "destroying of idols". Muhammad of Arabia was the one to set precedent of destroying the idols and later Muslims followed his actions.. It is difficult to whitewash everything with so much proof available mostly by their own poets who were praising the actions of "Ghazi warriors".

Notwithstanding your Vedic fog machine kicking into overdrive, the threshold issue here is the extent of temple destruction during Muslim conquest/rule supported by evidence. Let’s establish that first. We will know what to argue next, after we fix a number of things (whatever they are, events or desecrations, whatever). Then we can go into Vedic seed splitting about nuances of destroying, looting & installing etc.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
159
Shankar writes:

>>More from the famous Richard Eaton..

"He even admits in so many words: “No evidence, however, suggests that ruling authorities attacked public monuments like mosques or Sufi shrines that had been patronized by disloyal or rebellious officers

>>Punctures Old Macs claim that Temples were destroyed as they were also centres of power. If yes , the mosques also should have been destroyed , when one Muslim ruler conquered another.

Centers of power for an overwhelmingly Hindu population? with no charges of blasphemy from fellow muslims? Whereever did you learn to argue that like?
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
158
Shankar writes:

>>Eaton is talking of eighty documented instances and not eighty temples..

Actually, Dalrymple paraphrases Eaton saying, "80 desecrations." First, unless you are conceding 80 desecrations, there's no point in pushing the discussion along what a “desecration” means. One of your friends, newly acquainted with the wonder of multiplication, is suggesting 1 desecration = 1000 or 750 or 500 temples.

Second, voi.org is a joke. A place to push crap churned out by Elst, Sita Ram Goel, Frawley, N.S. Rajaram, Yvette Rosser and Francois Gautier. That makes it a place where Chaddis gather and jerk off together to tendentious theories. It's a website whose mission is still "coming soon." You can put lipstick on a pig and call it Monique, its still a pig.

Finally, the quote you took from Elst’s chapter 6 should belong in Sunday comics. The good "doctor" Elst has his Ph.D. in “Hindu Revivalism.” Since this is a historical matter, you are fighting with weapons made of cardboard.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
157
Mr.Prasannnntttthhh: "You won't give up, do you? "
The grammatically correct form is: "You don't give up, do you?". Apparently you need your grammar corrected by someone with a "pea sized brain" - says a lot about your brains.
" I feel everyone should make efforts to accomadate emotionally fragile people with no self-esteem. " - I agree. I will absolutely try to accomodate you.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
156
>> "And reg Bush, well that proves my point about you being an adept at the marxists trick of asking questions but answering none. The discussion started about Elst. You conviniently ran away from that"

Ganesan, you are the one who brought in Treason Times in this discussion, besides attributing "Marxist" tendencies to me! The two links I have provided contain sufficient material to make my point.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
155
"Ganesan, I said, "Ganesan had brought up Shourie", which is true"

That I agreed but not Ambedkar...which is what you implied because the question was "Why Ambedkar"? And you said Ganesan brought it. What else is one to conclude?

And reg Bush, well that proves my point about you being an adept at the marxists trick of asking questions but answering none. The discussion started about Elst. You conviniently ran away from that because you do not dare to provide a single instance he lied. Now you are raising Rush, fox, Bush....What next? Polar bears?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
154
Adi,

You won't give up, do you? When I make no effort to hide my ignorance from you, it means I don't consider you to be worthy of judging my knowledge.

Any way, I will give you the following medical advice. After that I will make accomodation for your outpourings here. I feel everyone should make efforts to accomadate emotionally fragile people with no self-esteem.

Please don't tax your wee little brain too much to come up with such articulation. Get some rest or watch some football after all that effort? If that headache still bothering you, why don’t you take two aspirins? God, no! The recommended dosage for pea sized brains is a quarter of a tablet. Before taking it, let your mommy and daddy know, least any emergencies arise.
Prasanth
Cochin, India
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
153
>> "Now Faruki lies or atleast distorts the message but then that is to be expected from the supporter of the treason times. He says I brought up Shourie but I never mentioned AMbedkar"

Ganesan, I said, "Ganesan had brought up Shourie", which is true.

Regarding your witch-hunt of the Times, the vote against it yesterday in the Senate was almost all along party lines. Your hero Bush has now been pulled up by the Supreme Court for illegal prosecutions. I will grant that you are an admirer of Shourie, just as you are an admirer of Russ Limbaugh and FOX News. While we may not have any areas of agreement, I do not plan to address you disrespectfully.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
152
Mr.Prashannntthhh: "But I believe the way to reply to abusive messages is by condescension, ignorance, and projecting the image that you are beyond the abusers reach (a bit of confidence does this to you). "
And you are doing a great job of presenting your "condescension and ignorance" here. As for your "projecting" part, not sure what you're referring to. B.T.W, do you know what "ignorance" and "condesension" mean? Do yourself a favour and look them up in a dictionary before you put your ugly foot in your mouth again.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
151
Mr.Prashanttthhhh: "What I meant was, don't use present values to judge past acts."
I don't know what that means. As far as I know, murder, looting and rape were wrong 1,300 years ago and they were wrong 3,000 years ago.
Mr.Prashantttthhhhh: "What if the present tribals in India called for the expulsion of upper castes since they are descendents of Aryan invaders?"
I would tell them that according to the constitution of India it is illegal.
Mr.Prashannnnnttttthhhh: "We object to rape, house breaking etc. now because we know and think that they are wrong now. "
WTF? We have recorded literature that is more than 2,000 years old at the least. Where the hell did you get the impression that "rape, house breaking etc. " were ok in the past? I am not aware of any Indian document that says these are alright - have you heard of the words "Dharma" or "Dharma Yuddha"? The Muslim invasions of India happened 1,300 years ago. That was when India had been civilized for a few millennia already.
From your comments it seems your value system says whoever has the might is right. If that is the case, what is the need for laws?
Following your argument that "By blaming the present you are only trying to create more problems, not solve any." - so no one should condemn the Nazis for murdering millions of Jews, no one should condemn the very Christian institutions of slavery and racism today because they "were in the past". The reason the U.S is largely not racist of Nazi-sympathetic is because the past is presented honestly and the persent generation is taught that these are immoral ideologies. All I ask for is the same for India.
Mr.Prashannnnttthhh:"When we punish some one we are punishing for breaking the laws that he/she was supposed to obey now. "
Who talked about punishment?
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
150
Faruki still misses the point. He gives a link which simply has quotes from Elst and calls him names. BUT WHAT THE HECK IS WRONG WITH THOSE QOUTES? ARE THEY TRUE OR FALSE? HAS HE LIED OR DISTORTED ANYTHING?

If cannot answer these questions, then shut up. And stop your marxists trick of askig question always while answering nothing. Once someone answers to you, you immediaely jump to another question and leave the topic you had earlier asked unattended. Thats a nice cut and run strategy but speaks ill of the debater.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
149
Mud-slinging continues regardless. Proves the point. The pathetic, programmed, retarded whiner will not address the substantive issue because he can't. He would insist in quoting discredited, self-referential and self-reverential "scholars" who quote each other to get legitimacy in their "eminent" way.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
148
Adi,

Had you raised your objection in words which would not have irritated me, I would have answered you question in a way I know of (now please don't go on repeating the same, it serves no purpose).

I did not say that Muslims did not loot temples in India. What I meant was, don't use present values to judge past acts. It is possible that the value reference used in the distant past may have been different, and the people may have acted in good faith in the only way that they knew how to act (however bad these things seem to us now). By blaming the present you are only trying to create more problems, not solve any. What if the present tribals in India called for the expulsion of upper castes since they are descendents of Aryan invaders? We object to rape, house breaking etc. now because we know and think that they are wrong now. When we punish some one we are punishing for breaking the laws that he/she was supposed to obey now.
Prasanth
Cochin, India
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
147
Here is another take on Elst :


http://tinyurl.com/fnz5c
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
146
Now Faruki lies or atleast distorts the message but then that is to be expected from the supporter of the treason times. He says I brought up Shourie but I never mentioned AMbedkar. Thats a LIE!!!!

In any case, since he talks about Ambedkar, I will state that it once again proves my point of the laziness of the so called liberals. SHourie's book came in 95 or 96. Its been 10 YEARS FOLKS!! Has anyone countered a SINGLE instance in the book that is a lie? No. The typical response is "but how can he write about Ambedkar"?

Infact the book was not written by Shourie but Ambedkar!! Shourie quotes extensively from the works of Ambedkar and he simply provides the context of those passages. Again HE DOES NOT LIE.
Sita Ram Goel and ELst DO NOT LIE. The marxists historians do!
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
145
Ajit Tendulkar,

I don't have any great liking for the mentioned " abusive and insulting message to someone with its smug elitist, but groundless, condescension". Adi, here objected to something that I wrote in a language which he could have avoided and kept on repeating it. Some times I like to ignore this, sometimes I like to beat back. Of course I could have used earthy, full of meaning curse words to reply to him. But I believe the way to reply to abusive messages is by condescension, ignorance, and projecting the image that you are beyond the abusers reach (a bit of confidence does this to you).
Prasanth
Cochin, India
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
144
Faruki,

What is your take on Richard M Eaton , quoted by Darlymple ?

shankar
Mumbai, India
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
143
Adi,

>> Who talked about Arun Shouries "maligning" of Dr.Ambedkar here?

Ganesan had brought up Shourie.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
142
prashant,

are you kidding me by suggesting that i am seeking enlightenment from you!!!???.

i am surely aware of too many things, but awareness is different from knowledge.

you seem 2 be confusing the two.
bhushan
richmond, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
141
Ghulam: "As for Aroun Shourie's malicious maligning of Dr Ambedkar,"
Who talked about Arun Shouries "maligning" of Dr.Ambedkar here? B.T.W, I read that book - he quotes directly from records. I dare you to disprove him.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
140
Mr.Prasanth,
Bhushan raises the same point I made based on your comments.
Please answer: "and going by ur statement to the effect that atleast the invaders found india worthy of looting/raping, it seems like you will be perfectly ok with someone barging into your house, raping the women, killing the men just because they found your house worthy."
So it's ok and in fact, you will be flattered, right?
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
139
All admirers of Koenraad Elst should at least be aware of the "Communalism Combat" article that I linked, whether they agree with it or not.

I think it is important to brand Gautier and Elst as aiders and abettors of the lies of Sanghi historians. As for Aroun Shourie's malicious maligning of Dr Ambedkar, that is a subject all by itself.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
138
Mr.Prasanthhhh: "Plenty of men of Indian origin can get one only this way.. "
Sure, I am a "man of Indian origin", so what are you, Arab invader that rapes defenceless women at will?
Mr.Prasantthhhhh: "You seem to know too many things" - that is right, buddy. About time you realized that. Some humility befits morons.
Mr.Prasanthhhh: "So I do it here and keep a copy of it for my own purposes..." - perhaps you can do your pooping in your toilet? And keep a copy of my comments as well.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
137
Prasanth, I am not taking any great pains: just that your abusive and insulting message to someone with its smug elitist, but groundless, condescension was way beyond the pale. It is disheartening to see that those accusing others of 'communalism' etc are the ones who are as, if not more, guilty of it. They are a big part of the problem, and the reason why the solution remains and would remain elusive.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
136
Bhushan,

Thank you for your long response. I don't want to argue with you. You seem to know too many things, and seem to have too many opinions. I didn't come to this board to enlighten the likes of you. When I see someone raising some objections, I want to develop my opposition to it and write it down somewhere. So I do it here and keep a copy of it for my own purposes. Beyond this I have no stake in writing to the likes of you..
Prasanth
Cochin, India
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
135
Mr.Bhushan:"why do these words/knowledge escape you when you clamor in the cause of reservation. "
Good one Bhushan! Touche'
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
134
thinking about macs opinion on hypothesis testing (which incidentally is not one of his skills, for his hypothesis is a question instead of a statement), i wonder whose gene pool mac inherited from? ask lalit or srinivas and they would be able to explain better :-)
hint: name coined by bagai ,, and srinivas's peanut theory...
bhushan
richmond, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
133
Ajit Tendulkar,

One of the purposes of my being on this forum is to learn writing and communication skills from the likes of you. It's (see not its, I am already learning) very reassuring to know that there is someone out there who takes great pains to point out the things that I don't know.
Prasanth
Cochin, India
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
132
prashant says
"Don't you think in the pursuit of truth, if we have to sacrifice some of our cherished beliefs we have to just do it? Latest research suggets that most of the intellegence is inherited. So if you are looking for the causes of low intellegence a scanning of gene pool is a necessity."

why do these words/knowledge escape you when you clamor in the cause of reservation.
bhushan
richmond, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
131
prakash says to old mac

"Notwithstanding the cause-effect relationship, can we leave one's forefathers/parents out of the discussion, especially when making conclusions about someone's intelligence. I think it is very offensive."

mate, you dont think you can convice this loud mouthed retard with words do you?
bhushan
richmond, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
130
Ganesan, you are being too kind when you call it "mental and intellectual laziness". It is dishonesty, and worse. It is low cunning. "Spit and Run" is what they do when they mud-sling, and when confronted with cold facts, they fret and fume and point out how they are being singled out for persecution by the Sanghis because they are this minority or the other. Frankly, I am not surprised if Sangh itself as a result gets a sympathetic response from those so accused, because in majority of cases, people don't know or couldn't care less about the Sangh one way or the other.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
129
prashant,

most of the invader abdali, nadir shah, gohri, ghazni, lodhi, khilji etc were either afghans or arabised persians. central asia is that part which falls above pamirs knot and the hindukush. all these were muslims from middle eastern descent/influence.

trade was very much possible .. you dont always have to produce to trade.
the arabs did trade, and quite successfully - buying from india and selling to europe, till they decided to loot and rape and kill.
even if i buy ur argument that it was about resources, killing was no necessary for resource gathering. the blood lust remains unexplained.

if the looters could come from afghan to india through the passes to kill and loot, they could have as well come for trade without any additional hardships. it would have atleast spared both the parites of senseless killings.
so you can shove ur suggestion me traveling through the passes.

and did u say that indian are not all that peace loving. maybe not. but they sure are a lot more civilized than the invaders. even though the indian kings fought, they didnt mass murder teh conquered populace. i call this lack of bloodlust a sign of inherently peaceful nature.

the persian and the romans, alexander etc etc etc you rant about, all had resources. it was simply the greed to expand the bounds of kingdom. again a strong indication that they were more driven by the urge to kill and loot than a genuine need for resources.

and going by ur statement to the effect that atleast the invaders found india worthy of looting/raping, it seems like you will be perfectly ok with someone barging into your house, raping the women, killing the men just because they found your house worthy. give me a
break.
if i manage to breach all the security of ur hose and loot and kill and rape, will that be ok, just because you had a chance of defending?

i surely know for a fact that you do keep dishing out advices here on the forum. i dont care if that is the only thing you do. though i am tempted to believe that it ends there.. all advising but not acting.

bhushan
richmond, United States
Jul 01, 2006 12:00 AM
128
But then I should not blame Faruki. His "authority" Khan is simply no better. He too fails to provide a single instance where Elst had misrepresented or lied or taken things out of context. But this disease his prevalent among most of the so called liberals.

In his book "Eminent Historians", Shourie gave with the source to the original texts, as to how the historians distort and lie. And response? They called him a part time historian, political pornographer and so forth, while failing to provide a single instance where he lied.

Aurobindo said that the biggest problem in India was intellectual laziness. And the likes of Khan, KNPanikkar, Thapar are ample proof of that.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
127
"Is Koenrad Elst a reliable historian"?

Why dont you go ahead and prove he is not? WHy dont you give a SINGLE instance where he has lied about his source or misrepresented any of the facts or taken things out of context? Why do you resort to name calling?
Its a disease. I quoted Arun SHourie on something and Faruki said "Oh!Shourie". But he does not explain how a thing qouted by Shourie automatically becomes false.
It is simply mental and intellectual laziness.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
126
And now we have one self-appointed English tutor, Prasanth, who doesn't know the difference between "it's" and "its".

It's not just ironical, but a telling commentary. Physician, as they say, heal thyself!
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
125
Adi,

Please don't give up. What would my day be if I no longer receive wisdom, advice and praises from you. If you don't have a wife, its alright. Ask your mommy and daddy to get one (reading your elevated communication skills I am sure if your mommmy do not get you one or hasn't already got you one, you are not going to get any woman to agree to be your wife). Its alright. Plenty of men of Indian origin can get one only this way..
Prasanth
Cochin, India
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
124
Mr.prasanth: "I understand your desperation. I will pass the chance for now. I am a bit too busy now,"...
Huh? Give up already?
Mr.prasanth: "and I am really fearful of what if your wife clings to my neck forever after the deed."
And this moron admitted earlier he does not even know if I am married. You're pathetic, I have nothing further to say to you.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
123
Ghulam: "Is Koenraad Elst, author of "Vandalism Sanctified by Scripture", a reliable historian?"

Is "Ayub Khan" the author of "Koenraad Elst--Sangh Parivar's Apologist" a non-partisan commentator on communal issues?
Mr.Khan spouts: "Koenraad Elst has emerged as the most prominent advocate of Sangh Parivar ". That is patently false. Dr.Elst does not support the Sangh Parivar but frequently derides it as misguided. He draws inspiration from giants like Sitaram Goel and Ram Swarup.
Mr.Khan farts: "Such is his importance in Hindutva circles that L.K.Advani quoted him at length while deposing before the Liberhans Commission investigation the demolition of Babri Masjid."
Does it occur to this buffoon khan that Dr.Elst's book is much better researched than any other JNU bigot's so-called "history"?
Mr.Khan further pukes: "It is Elst's contention that the Muslims along with British were also colonizers of the Hindu civilization"
Sorry, you must be rare donkey indeed to doubt this fact.
And so it goes...
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
122
Adi,

I understand your desperation. I will pass the chance for now. I am a bit too busy now, and I am really fearful of what if your wife clings to my neck forever after the deed. When I have time in t he future I will let you know. In the meantime you can work on improving your English reading and writing skills for better communication purposes.
Prasanth
Cochin, India
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
121
So typical of the low-life moaner: when there is no argument left, when cold facts admitted by the "defence lawyer" (Eaton, in this case) himself are used to blow the case apart, what is the ruse left? Why, throw mud at the prosecutor of course! So typical of the 'slimey seculars' who give secularism a bad name. It is not who but what is being talked about that is of relevance.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
120
Is Koenraad Elst, author of "Vandalism Sanctified by Scripture", a reliable historian?


http://tinyurl.com/k8j4m
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
119
Old Monkey's co-religionists, the worshippers of the semi-naked dead guy on a cross have been a lot more successful at genocide the the followers of the "religion of peace". They also don't believe in evolution - I suppose their brains didn't really evolve from the ape-stage as is evident from the kind of gibberish Old Ape-nuts spouts.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
118
Bagai,

>> I have speculated how the world would be without Islam.
>> It would be a peaceful continent.

It would be very peaceful without humans. Just look how peaceful Mars is.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
117
Mr.Prasanth pukes: "Now, if you reply to this message I will take it as a signal that my services are needed..."
Services? Oh yeah, my bathroom needs a thorough scrubbing.
Looks like I touched a raw nerve there though :) Insecure about your wife, dude? Common problem for the ugly men from Cochin.
Other than that, can't make sense of any of your blabbering.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
116
As for Old Moron and where he learnt his history from, well, one just has to look at his comprehension and parsing skills and how he has to peddle one draft of badly written prose after another to satisfy his own pathetic standards to figure out that the guy is barely literate.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
115
Gee whiz, I even found a good sensible article on this on Outlook itself:
http://www.outlookindia...010831&fname=elst&sid=1


I think the problem is not that people want all those temples to be rebuilt, but at the sheer denial of history, and how it is sought to be airbrushed or rationalised away with pathetic moral equivalence being drawn. There is no need to worry about what happened in the past. The truth would free us all - and it does not mean any of the present generations having to atone or apologise for the sin of those that were guilty in the past. All that is asked is not to hero-worship those who are seen as having been responsible for defiling, killing, raping and systematically looting. How can one expect the Sikhs, for example, to be told that the brutal killers of Guru Tegh Bahadur were actually secular men of pious characters?
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
114
Continued from my earlier post..

" .... yields the same thousands of temple destructions ascribed to the Islamic rulers in most relevant pre-1989 histories of Islam and in pro-Hindu publications..."


http://voi.org/books/acat/ch6.htm


Eaton is talking of eighty documented instances and not eighty temples..

The Ghoris and the Ghaznis would be laughing their head off in their graves..

Continued:

So according to Eaton,
1.If the Islamic Scholars were Truthful and were sticking to facts, then it can be upto 80 x 1000 = 80,000 temples destroyed.
2. If they were writing under influence and exaggerating wildly, then it is 80 x 500 = 40,000 temples destroyed.
3.If they were lying once in a while to their masters, to earn an Extra Hooka or an extra jug of wine or an extra virgin, you can take an average of 750..i.e 80 x 750 = 60,000 temples destroyed..

Old Mac - "nothing supports the RSS nostrum that 60,000 temples were looted/destroyed other than hot air. ."

Hot air ? looks more like more like Cold Facts which supports the RSS nostrum.
shankar
Mumbai, India
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
113
Srinivas writes, "As per Francois Gautier "The number of temples destroyed by Aurangzeb is counted in 4, if not 5 figures"

Gautier has no credentials as a historian, but does have credentials as a liar. He even wrote to other Western journalists to lie on the eve of Prime Minister Vajpayee's visit to Washington by underplaying the harrassment of Christian missionaries in India as well as the massacre in Gujarat. He is a Sanghi mouthpiece.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
112
Shankar writes:

>>By dragging ones Parents ,wife,sister,mother into the arguement and heaping abuse on people who differ with you, you are reinforcing the opinion that you are a dimwit

If disagreement were the only criteria, you would have been at the receiving end.

>>I am referring to the comments you have made on Bagai

Let's set aside my subsequent apology to the side. But let's see if you can recall the context of that exchange. I doubt it very much that you could.

>>A lucid,logical argument can be made,without getting personal or abusive ..right ?

Absolutely. But my vitriol is never directed against people whom I disagree...even strongly. It's always against those begging for it.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
111

*********
Early medieval Indian history (of the pre-Muslim period) abounds in instances of temple desecration that occurred amidst interdynastic conflicts,' he writes. 'In AD 642...the Pallava king, Narasimhavarman I, looted the image of Ganesha from the Chalukyan capital of Vatapi. Fifty years later, armies from those same Chalukyas invaded North India and brought back to the Deccan...images of Ganga and Yamuna, looted from defeated powers there.
*******

There is a difference between looting images and installing the idols in their own temples.. Narasimha Pallavan did that.. I don't think it involved any religious reasons..

It is different than religion dictated "destroying of idols". Muhammad of Arabia was the one to set precedent of destroying the idols and later Muslims followed his actions.. It is difficult to whitewash everything with so much proof available mostly by their own poets who were praising the actions of "Ghazi warriors"..
Selvan
Boston, United States
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
110
Correction in the earlier post

" 80 temples destroyed in 600 years , at the rate of 1 in 7.5 years !!!! "
shankar
Mumbai, India
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
109
More from the famous Richard Eaton..

"He even admits in so many words: “No evidence, however, suggests that ruling authorities attacked public monuments like mosques or Sufi shrines that had been patronized by disloyal or rebellious officers. Nor were such monuments desecrated when one Indo-Muslim kingdom conquered another and annexed its territories.”18


http://voi.org/books/acat/ch6.htm


Punctures Old Macs claim that Temples were destroyed as they were also centres of power. If yes , the mosques also should have been destroyed , when one Muslim ruler conquered another.
shankar
Mumbai, India
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
108
Old Mac - ""Dalrymple's article (still on this site) quotes Richard Eaton that between 13th and 18th century, historical evidence supports about 80 temples in terms of both destruction and desecrations."

80 temples destroyed in 600 years , at the rate of 1 in 13 years !!!!

Additional information about what Eaton said ..

"Thus, in his list, we find mentioned as one instance: “1994: Benares, Ghurid army”.1 Did the Ghurid army work one instance of temple destruction? Eaton provides his source, and there we read that in Benares, the Ghurid royal army “destroyed nearly one thousand temples, and raised mosques on their foundations”.2 This way, practically every one of the instances cited by Eaton must be read as actually ten, or a hundred, or as in this case even a thousand temples destroyed. Even Eaton’s non-exhaustive list, presented as part of “the kind of responsible and constructive discussion that this controversial topic so badly needs”3, yields the same thousands of temple destructions ascribed to the Islamic rulers in most relevant pre-1989 histories of Islam and in pro-Hindu publications..."


http://voi.org/books/acat/ch6.htm


Eaton is talking of eighty documented instances and not eighty temples..

The Ghoris and the Ghaznis would be laughing their head off in their graves..
shankar
Mumbai, India
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
107
Mac quotes Dalrymple who quotes Eaton as "Dalrymple's article (still on this site) quotes Richard Eaton that between 13th and 18th century, historical evidence supports about 80 temples in terms of both destruction and desecrations."


As per Francois Gautier "The number of temples destroyed by Aurangzeb is counted in 4, if not 5 figures. This is a small excerpt of his own official court chronicles: "Aurangzeb ordered all provincial governors to destroy all schools and temples of the Pagans and to make a complete end to all pagan teachings and practices". Or:: "Hasan Ali Khan came and said that 172 temples in the area had been destroyed... His majesty went to Chittor and 63 temples were destroyed. Abu Tarab, appointed to destroy the idol-temples of Amber, reported that 66 temples had been razed to the ground".."

Looks like someone got their math wrong. Maybe the great Englishman is right. And the court historians of Aurangazeb just went overboard writing about the "conquests" of their emperor.
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
106
Shankar writes:"A lucid,logical argument can be made,without getting personal or abusive ..right ? "

My friend, I think that's too much to ask from Mac.

Old Mac has been continuously ranting such stuff for the past few years on this website.

Now, what remains to be seen is how many here would take the bait and degenrate themselves to his level by bringing in his parents/wife/daughters etc into their reposts.
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
105
Old Mac - "a token reminder that heaping abuse neither takes great effort nor noteworthy ability.."

A token reminder that you should practice what you preach ,if you have to be taken seriously.

By dragging ones Parents ,wife,sister,mother into the arguement and heaping abuse on people who differ with you, you are reinforcing the opinion that you are a dimwit who neither has the ability nor do you make an effort to talk sensibly.

( I am referring to the comments you have made on Bagai / his wife earlier and Prakash now.. )

A lucid,logical argument can be made,without getting personal or abusive ..right ?
shankar
Mumbai, India
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
104
To all beer drinkers

Cheers.

Brother Goolam claims that I write after drinking beer. Not normally.

However it would be good if the muslims of this world would

aaa. Take a drink like many civilised people.

bbb Visit an art gallery

ccc. Listen to music

or just read a good book from time to time.

However all these are forbidden by the holy prophet. So whats the alternataive for these
people. Reproduce themselves, without thought of the future. Visit the mosques, or listsn to chants from the Koran. Any one listening to an Islamic channel will bear me out.

Ofcource I am forgetting something. Thats to mount angry campaigns against the Americans, Europeans , jews and Hindus.Bush, the cartoonists,Rushdie or whatever.


This is evident reading any Pakistani paper,
or listen to them in their website.

I have speculated how the world would be without Islam.

Peace in Afghanistan , which would have been Budhist. No Mullah Omar or the Taliban Peace in Iran which would have been Zorastrian.No Khomenis, No Sadaam Hussains, No Musharaffs,
No Banglabhais, The list of criminals in the muslim world is endless.In India we would be free of Dawood Ibrahims, the Abu Salems, Telgis, the Shahbuddins, TasleemudDeen and other bad lot.

It would be a peaceful continent just like Bali,
which is one of the few peaceful places in Indonesia.

Failing to convert them into any humane religion, the next best would be to turn them into toads. All the 1.3 billion toads could be parked in Florida, where they could battle it out with the crocks.

Peace at last for the rest of the world.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
103
Prakash writes:

>>Its almost Friday evening here and I am getting ready to mourn Nicole Kidman's official marriage while the rest of my mates have the added burden of Soccerroo's unlucky exit from the World Cup. Weighed against such heartbreakers, your speculation seems harmless!

While the 5'10" long-legged beauty's nuptuals are an unmitigated catastrophe, there's still hope because Stacy's Mom still got it going on, if you overlook that she's a kiwi. Thank you Fountains of Wayne.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
102
Old Mac

Maybe its alcohol deprivation but I wouldn’t do something which I consider offensive, unless I can establish it to be "true" beyond reasonable speculation. Regardless, I get the drift of what you are saying.

Its almost Friday evening here and I am getting ready to mourn Nicole Kidman's official marriage while the rest of my mates have the added burden of Soccerroo's unlucky exit from the World Cup. Weighed against such heartbreakers, your speculation seems harmless!

regards
prakash
Sydney, Australia
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
101
Prasanth

Dont get me wrong - I am all for sacrificing "all" of my cherished beliefs for the truth. I do support and enjoy light hearted jabs.

>> So if you are looking for the causes of low intellegence a scanning of gene pool is a necessity.

Agree. However, to speculate on someone's ancestors/parents based on a few posts on Outlook sounds offensive to me. Alternately, if you were to study someone's genes and come to this conclusion, I'll support you.

regards
prakash
Sydney, Australia
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
100
Prakash writes:

>>I think it is very offensive.

It is and was meant to be.....a token reminder that heaping abuse neither takes great effort nor noteworthy ability. While diamonds are forever, my forbearance isn't.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
99
Prakash,

Sorry, I couldn't resist being a smart-ass.

Don't you think in the pursuit of truth, if we have to sacrifice some of our cherished beliefs we have to just do it? Latest research suggets that most of the intellegence is inherited. So if you are looking for the causes of low intellegence a scanning of gene pool is a necessity.
Prasanth
Cochin, India
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
98
Old Mac >> Due to an unfortunate miscommunication, they ended up testing the hypothesis what happens if monkeys and humans mated?

Notwithstanding the cause-effect relationship, can we leave one's forefathers/parents out of the discussion, especially when making conclusions about someone's intelligence. I think it is very offensive.

regards
prakash
Sydney, Australia
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
97
Prashant,

Can you not tell the Adi et. al. are the first set of lab results from an experiment horribly went wrong? The hypothesis tested was why are idiots produces when first cousins mate. Due to an unfortunate miscommunication, they ended up testing the hypothesis what happens if monkeys and humans mated? Tada....Adi, Bagai, Srinivas (Lucknow) et. al. are the first batch-mates from that hatchery.

Adi writes:

>>Hindus did defend their temples with their lives and were butchered in the thousands as the "conquerors" gleefully wrote in their "annals of victory".

They did a hell of a job; not to mention leaving a line of progeny that perpetualy pules.

Who says murder and robbing is wrong? and why? Who says robbing temples is wrong? If so, on what basis? That it hurts your sentiments? Sorry, no room for sentiment in an morally relative world. Bagai will tell you all about "survival of the fittest."

Dalrymple's article (still on this site) quotes Richard Eaton that between 13th and 18th century, historical evidence supports about 80 temples in terms of both destruction and desecrations. While even the smaller number is indefendible, though understandable, nothing supports the RSS nostrum that 60,000 temples were looted/destroyed other than hot air. Except for when destroying the temples with a specific political purpose, most were viewed as "protected state property, were left unmolested."

Dalrymple continues:

"Eaton sees the attacks on temples not so much as the introduction to India of a new spirit of iconoclasm, so much as the continuation of the existing pre-Islamic practice of destroying or abducting the protecting state deity whose power was politically linked to the sovereignty of the defeated ruler: 'Early medieval Indian history (of the pre-Muslim period) abounds in instances of temple desecration that occurred amidst interdynastic conflicts,' he writes. 'In AD 642...the Pallava king, Narasimhavarman I, looted the image of Ganesha from the Chalukyan capital of Vatapi. Fifty years later, armies from those same Chalukyas invaded North India and brought back to the Deccan...images of Ganga and Yamuna, looted from defeated powers there. In the eighth century, Bengali troops sought revenge on King Lalitaditya's kingdom of Kashmir by destroying the image of Vishnu Vaikuntha, the state deity.'"
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
96
Adi,

In order to avoid any confusion please read this message fully before taking any decisions..

You have fulfilled a great wish of mine. I have been posting on this forum for the past few weeks and was getting annoyed that why no one was blown over by my genius and complimented me. You have restored my faith in human intellect and generosity by your praises. According to you, I am not just a genius but my farts even produce English sentences! I have to repay your kindness in some way. How about clearing one of your uncertainiteis (the last question in your kind response)? Now if you have any doubts about your wife's worth (if you don't have a wife we will discuss the alternatives), I will always be at your service. I will be honoured if by doing the deed, I could repay the kindness that you bestowed upon me.

Now, if you reply to this message I will take it as a signal that my services are needed. I know its a bit hard to make such requests on open forums. We can work around this. Why don't you write an abusive message? I will correlate the abusiveness of your message with your desperation.
Prasanth
Cochin, India
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
95
Bhushan,

I will answer by quoting you. I think you can be a bit more critical about things and apply a bit more of your common sense. You don’t need to be a practicing historian to make interesting claims.
>>bollocks. there was always the option of trade + honest hard work.
First things first. Trade: What do you think people from arid, infertile waste lands of central Asia (most of the Islamic invaders to India were central Asians or Turks, not Arabs or Persians ) would have used to trade with India? There was not enough demand for horses in India. Nor did Indians take a fancy to sand from central Asia.
Honest Hard Work: I don’t think risking your life on long horse rides and the gruels of following battles were a walk in the park. If you get a chance, try once to travel to India from Afganistan through the passes. You will really appreciate the courage and willingness to work of the people who made such attempts. From what I know they gave Indians a honest chance to fight and defeat them.
>>the indians didnt invade other lands, the chinese didnt, the jewish tribes of middle east didnt.
Indians did not invade foreign lands not because they were responsible, peace loving global citizens from pre-historic times. One, for the period under consideration India was a resource rich country and was self-sustaining. There was no need to invade other lands to find core resources. Two, for the resources lacking in India, they could use plenty of Indian resources with global demand for doing trade with other nations. Third, Indians did not fancy close contacts with foreigners.
Similar arguments can be used for Chinese too. As far as Jewish tribes, contrary to present day status of Jews, they were an insignificant community with no resources to go on invading foreign lands.
>>only the islamic invaders and later the europeans.
Invasions of other people and places when your place lacks resources is something that has been happening from pre-historic times. Reading a bit about tribal life and a bit more about Roman empire, Persian empire, conquests of Alexander, Mongol invasions etc. are pretty instructive.
>>hindus were non-violent by nature in contrast to the muslims and the europeans, which eventually cost them their freedom
You don’t believe this rubbish about Hindus being non-violent, do you? Since we are on a historical debate, it might be instructive to read about some Hindu law books on the kind of acceptable punishments. If not, refreshing your memory about the themes of epics Ramayana and Mahabharata or more contemporary puranas will be helpful. Hindus lost their freedom because they became complacent. There is nothing to be too much ashamed of. Most civilizations went through low periods. At least unlike, Greek, Roman, Persian and other civilizations Hindu civilization or whatever remnants of it has survived to this day.
>>apropos the last sentence about the roles appropriated, are u practicing any part of what u r preaching??
You don’t know anything about what I do, nor am I going to reveal it. Since we are discussing issues here (not working, but having some fun), why don’t you draw your conclusions from the things that people support and oppose.
Prasanth
Cochin, India
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
94
>> "Maybe the problems of muslims would be solved if an angel fairy would transform all muslims into toads"

Is this Bagai an adult? Perhaps it is all that beer and liquor that he talks to Joseph about with so much relish!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
93
Ping Pong

So Brother Goolam is a toad sitting in hie Islamic mire.

Well done.

However he is a forgiveing toad as far as you are concerned.

Keep it up.

Maybe the problems of muslims would be solved if an angel fairy would transform all muslims into toads.

There would be 1.3 billion toads, and Brother Goolam would be one of them.

However we would be able to recoganise him Kill the RSS, Kill the RSS will be his constant croak.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
92
Adi

Whereas he asks that the past be forgotten, he would not be willing to forget the destruction of the Babri Masjid, or any killing of muslims any where.

Whereas Aurangzeb who is hated by Hindus and Sikhs is forgiven this man is constantly after the RSS who have not comitted 1 % of the crimes of the former.

Debateing with this thoroughly hypocitical, sleazy and decietful character is a waste of time.He is a dogmatic muslim with double standards.

Why does he bother to debate on this forum.
Nearly everyone thinks that he is a jerk. I hate to use such terms but am provoked by his rude and boorish language.

Is there not a debateing forum in The Milli Gazette, Dawn or Daily Times. Or any other muslim website.He should present his insufferable views there.Most of us have had it with him.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
91
Ghulam,
I do not ask for an apology - you don't owe me one. All I ask is that the truth be told and Muslims own up to the violent persecution of Hindus by medieval invaders and tyrants and disown their actions. Instead what we have for History in India is apologetics for Muslim crimes. I certainly don't see Mughals as exemplary in any sense. They were a wasteful disaster to India at best.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
90
Adi,

Who should apologize? Muslims are not a monolithic community, nor do they have agreed upon leaders. Most of them were Hindus themselves when those events occurred. During the mass migrations and conquests all the world over in the past several thousand years, millions have perished, and several civilizations have been destroyed. If the world sets up an agenda of seeking "closures", then that's all that we shall be doing for the next 1000 years.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
89
Mr.Prashant the genius: "If they did not care to defend their temples with their life,"
Wow! such logic.
1. Hindus did defend their temples with their lives and were butchered in the thousands as the "conquerors" gleefully wrote in their "annals of victory".
Mr.Prashant the genius farts: " why blame people who thought the temples were worth looting? "
Why blame a murderer for murdering? Why blame a robber for robbing your house, thank him instead!

Mr.Prashant the genius continues: "At least be flattered that these conquerors thought India was worth risking their lives and conquering."
If someone raped your wife, would you be flattered that he considered her worth going to prison over?
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Jun 30, 2006 12:00 AM
88
Mr.Prashant: "Why should present muslims apologize for the normal acts of past islamic conqu