www.outlookindia.com | Southern Solitude

positive action

Southern Solitude

The South, with a longer history of social justice, has been quiet on quotas

S. Anand

PRINT	SHARE	COMMENTS

Also In This Story

cover Story

Rainbow Warriors

Affirmative action bridged the divide in American society. What lessons can India learn from it?

Ashish Kumar Sen

interview

'AA helped Harvard Connect To America'

The co-founder and director of the Civil Rights Project at Harvard on the university's experience with affirmative action.

Ashish Kumar Sen

interview

'Diversity Is Key To Our Business Wins'

V-P, Diversity and Equal Opportunity Programmes, at Lockheed Martin Corporation on the company's commitment to diversity.

Ashish Kumar Sen

voices India inc

'It's Totally Voluntary There'

Anti-reservation stalwarts say that affirmative action doesn't hold quality hostage

Anuradha Raman

reservation

Dr No

Students' protest against quotas turns vehement. But HRD minister Arjun Singh refuses to blink. Updates

Anuradha Raman

Why is the South not protesting the proposed reservation in higher education? Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and Kerala have a longer history of social movements, reservation and caste reform with leaders like Periyar E.V. Ramasamy and Sreenarayana Guru. Forget anti-reservation agitation, Tamil Nadu witnessed protests against the Supreme Court verdict doing away with quota in self-financing professional institutions in August 2005.

Today, Tamil Nadu has 69 per cent reservation and Karnataka 50 per cent in all institutes of higher learning. Kerala has about 50 per cent and Andhra Pradesh 49.5. Ironically enough, some of the first beneficiaries of reservation in education were the Brahmins. In Madras Presidency College, the British administration noted that most 'natives' (at that time largely upper castes) failed to clear the final examination in the first and second divisions with 40 per cent marks. To ensure that more candidates passed, a third division (at 33 per cent) was introduced in the mid-nineteenth century. Subsequently, the Madras Presidency area (which included large parts of Andhra, Karnataka and Kerala) saw Dalits and non-Brahmins demanding an equal share in employment and education. When the Justice Party came to power in the Madras Presidency, it issued the first Communal GO in 1921 reserving jobs for various non-Brahmin communities. This was stuck down in 1950 by the Supreme Court. But the concept of quota was introduced much before Independence in the four southern states.

In Tamil Nadu, the 69 per cent (30% BCs, 20% MBCs, 18% SCs, 1% STs) quota was arrived at without any proper study of caste figures. This distribution may bear little resemblance to ground realities. Says P. Radhakrishnan, professor at the Madras Institute of Development Studies: "It was an arbitrary political decision with no sociological basis." As a result, SCs, BCs and MBCs have begun to outperform the so-called forward communities, cornering a majority of the open competition (OC) seats. In the 2005 medical entrance, out of a total of 1,445 seats in 12 medical colleges, 430 seats were available in open competition. As many as 321 BC, 57 MBC and 14 SC students made it in the OC list. Only 38 from 'forward' communities qualified. "This shows the upholders of merit are talking rubbish," says G.R. Ravindranath of Doctors Association for Social Equality.

PRINT	SHARE	COMMENTS

Also In This Story

cover Story

Rainbow Warriors

Affirmative action bridged the divide in American society. What lessons can India learn from it?

Ashish Kumar Sen

interview

'AA helped Harvard Connect To America'

The co-founder and director of the Civil Rights Project at Harvard on the university's experience with affirmative action.

Ashish Kumar Sen

interview

'Diversity Is Key To Our Business Wins'

V-P, Diversity and Equal Opportunity Programmes, at Lockheed Martin Corporation on the company's commitment to diversity.

Ashish Kumar Sen

voices India inc

'It's Totally Voluntary There'

Anti-reservation stalwarts say that affirmative action doesn't hold quality hostage

Anuradha Raman

reservation

Dr No

Students' protest against quotas turns vehement. But HRD minister Arjun Singh refuses to blink. Updates

Anuradha Raman

Filed In Topics: Quota- Reservations, S. Anand

More In: Society, Cover Stories

Daily Mail

COLLAPSE COMMENTS :

HAVE YOUR SAY

May 27, 2006 12:00 AM 29	The protoganists of reservation allege that the BC were suppressed for centuries by the FC and call themselves in Tamil Nadu 'Made backward'. Only the SC were suppressed. The BC had access to education including Samskrit. Only the Vedas were denied to the fourth varna. Some of the great Tamil intellectuals like Thiruvalluvar, Nammaazhwaar, Kambar and Avvaiyaar were BC. The math professor who lectured to Srinivasa Ramanujan in Pachaiappa's College in Chennai was Singaravelu Mudaliar of the fourth varna. If the BC were oppressed by the FC, were the MBC oppressed by the BC in order to agitate for a separate quota? Why don't the creamy layer among the BC abdicate in favour of the really deserving BC below them and compete as equals with the BC? R. NARASIMHAN CHENNAI, INDIA
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM 28	Anders Agren of Sweden seems to think that the Brittish reserved govt jobs for brahmins in the 19th century. It is not so. They wanted to train English-knowing clerks for running their Indian empire with limited number of Brittishers. They opened English schools and the brahmins who had the traditions of learning the vedas and puranas, teaching and giving religious discourses in Sanskrit and other local languages, were the first to take the opportunities for learning English and becoming govt clerks, lawyers, college teacher etc. People from other castes also followed suite later when the advantages were recognized. v.seshadri chennai, india
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM 27	Honest and straight procedure for affirmative action for OBC/BC/SC/ST would be the following: Decide on the number of seats available. Make a merit list of qualified applicants for selection, with those applying as OBC/BC/SC/ST clearly identified. Select SC/ST candidates top-down from the merit list until 22.5 % seats are filled. Select OBC/BC candidates top-down from remaining merit list until 27% seats are filled. Select candidates top-down from the remaining merit list for the remaining 50.5% of seats, irrespective of their being FC/OBC etc. This procedure will operate as a genuine reservation for the backwards instead of the current procedure where the the FCs get chance to compete only against the best among the OBCs in the general category and are excluded from selections below that line, thus making it possible for the OBC/BCs get almost all the non-SC/ST seats. Honest and straight procedure for affirmative action for OBC/BC/SC/ST would be the following: Decide on the number of seats available. Make a merit list of qualified applicants for selection, with those applying as OBC/BC/SC/ST clearly identified. Select SC/ST candidates top-down from the merit list until 22.5 % seats are filled. Select OBC/BC candidates top-down from remaining merit list until 27% seats are filled. Select candidates top-down from the remaining merit list for the remaining 50.5% of seats, irrespective of their being FC/OBC etc. This procedure will operate as a genuine reservation for the backwards instead of the current procedure where the the FCs get chance to compete only against the best among the OBCs in the general category and are excluded from selections below that line, thus making it possible for the OBC/BCs get almost all the non-SC/ST seats. v.seshadri chennai, india
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM 26	Reservations as it happens in Tamil Nadu etc. today, seems to be deliberately designed to exclude admissions to the FCs as much as possible. Since the OBCs get over 90% of open category selections also, the FCs get only 3%. The Christians, Moslems, Jains etc. in the FC can get into minority colleges for which the reservation bill does not apply. Hence, only the Hindu Brahmins are really targeted for ‘exclusion’, since non-brahmin high-castes also get OBC certificates as some ‘insurance’ for selection under quota if not selected under general category. Possible solution would be to declare the Brahmins also as a separate minority group which can have minority colleges protected against reservations. Or, the Ramakrishna Mutt, recognized as minority [ ! ] can open colleges in engg/med. Otherwise, these people have to seek education/jobs only outside the state or abroad, which only the well-to-do or scholarship-awardees can manage. Most do not even seek jobs in the state. Have heard of a Brahmin IIT Sc-grad seeking Anna Univ job in TN being asked ‘How dare you apply?’; chap is now making a living teaching music to youngsters in Chennai & abroad via telephone. Perhaps, the new Govt can rename Anna Univ as Ravana University as one more nice act to please the noble soul of Periar, who died with thorns on heart. v.seshadri chennai, india
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM 25	Merit, on subject-knowledge, alone should be the only criterion for selections to teachers’ posts from schools to universities/IITs/IIMs. Like in the defence forces, teaching is a sacred area NOT to be contaminated by caste-based reservations. If teacher-quality is compromised, for whatever reasons, education quality will suffer, equally for the reserved and open-category students. v.seshadri chennai, india
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM 24	I think instead of COndoleeza Rice, the honour of being the other face of reservation should go to George W. Bush Srinivas Srinivas Sridhar Bangalore, India
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM 23	I wonder whether Arjun Singh is playing a foreign inspired game to divide India. Remember what happened to Yugoslavia's 6 provices. There is nothing wrong in giving more seats to backward castes. But taking the opportunity from merritorious students or the government's right to deny the basic right of education is being discussed here. I recommend a probe by CBI against Arjun Singh and his motive. Sathya Sacramento, United States
May 25, 2006 12:00 AM 22	Solitude South: These are my comments: 1)In tamilnad, except brahmins everyone comes under one reservation or other. If so many BCs,MBCs,SCs outcompete forward caste students and cut into Open quota, why in place u need such quota? 2)In tamilnad, there is a state sponsored marginalisation of FCs. it is a racial discrimination .So as a result u see majority of Tamil FCs staying away from tamilnad. 3) If outlook believed in Affirmative Action, reservation blah..blah..please come out with statistics: how many STs /BCS/MBCs are employed by outlook.What are the blue colour jobs and what proportion are occupied by other meagre positions? Ghosts should not recite dacred texts.. Suresh suresh heidelberg, Germany
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM 21	writer very easily forgot to mention how many So called Tamil brahmins stay outside tamilnadu, and how many of them are in cntral universities like IIT's and how many of them choose Accounting (CA, CS, ICWA) as career becouse of this bloddy quota system. pls ask him to both sides of the story before writing such BS Ramprasad Yamijala Chennai, India
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM 20	open competition (OC) folks in south are too busy trying to get out of the country.So,Blah Blah Blah ..Blah Blah.. Hence True...THE END! Outlook Reader Orlando, United States
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM 19	"..In TN 99% of the Govt opportunities are occupied by non-FC's. Bureaucracy and the Govt. services are going in Bihar's direction. .." Folks, take the upper caste rantings with a pinch of salt.. Tamilnadu's successful handling of the Tsunami devastation was appreciated all over. I wonder how it was possible with the "lower caste" bureaucracy.. And TN did grow in double digits after that.. It is also true that the "creamy layer" among the OBCs garner all the benefits.. The "creamy layer" needs to be skimmed off for further successes.. Note: I don't have anything against any group of people.. Just pointing out the facts.. Selvan Boston, United States
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM 18	I was once told that for the Tam Brams (and Mylapore Mamis), the cherished dream was for their progeny to be in the US. One community I noticed where even well off parents encouraged their progeny to build "good" lives in US. I was even told, many believed for them life would have to be outside TN, and as far as they were concerned outside of TN is all "foreign", and so best "foreign" is US. I also know statistics say that the largest contingent of NRIs in US are from AP - though I don't know the caste breakdown as opposed to my emperical observations in case of Tam Brams in US. In anycase, if TN indeed did well relatively in the India context, then I guess it was good for all ... no loss to anyone, I suppose. Arun Maheshwari Bangalore, India
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM 17	Navdeep Hans: Why are you Uppercastes loyal to your castes - a small percentage of Hindus, only about 12 percent in fact - and not the demands fof 88 percent of Hindus, the low castes? If you feel such enmity for the VAST MAJORITY of Hindus, how can you be called Hindus? If you are loyal to Himnduism, why not tell you caste to go to Hell and sympathise with the interests of the VAST MAJORITY of Hindus, on this reservation matter? In any case, why all the Uppercaste bellyaching? You should simply marry lowcastes and Dalits. Then your children will be dalit or low caste. So no problem. Simple !!! Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM 16	==> Shivkumar Please read the following link to guage the success of the Southern experiment. http://www.blonnet.com/...es/2006051500791000.htm Basically in TN a program to marginalise the FC has been undertaken with state sanction. As a result people belonging to the FC category in Tamilnadu are very few because a large number of them have migrated in search of better opportunities. The only difference between TN and Hitler's Germany is that there are no concentration camps in TN and that FC's can still compete on merit on the limited opportunities available. Navdeep Hans Delhi, India
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM 15	looks like eveyone agreeing to one point. That is TN has moved forward (all socio - economic parameters say so). So, why not move entire India forward, - make all states follow TN model. sivakumar chennai, india
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM 14	Finished. India is finished. Dinesh BC London, United Kingdom
May 23, 2006 12:00 AM 13	Anders Agren, MBC -> Most Backward Caste, a further classification in the OBCs.. In Tamilnadu, except the Brahmins and a few other castes who probably form less than 3% of the population everyone else is classified as OBCs. Some of those like "Gounders" in the west are very wealthy and Devars/Nadars in the south are politically powerful and the "creamy layer" among those groups used to garner all the seats reserved for OBCs.. Vanniyars another politically powerful but economically backward group classified as OBCs got the raw end of the stick and fought for further classification successfully and got the MC tag in late 80s.. There is very little difference in the cutoff marks for the medical admissions (For 2004 admissions, I think is 295 - OC, 294-BC, 292-MBC, 287-SC, 274-ST).. Selvan Boston, United States
May 23, 2006 12:00 AM 12	Being a student of History of Religions I inevitably came to take interest in Indian sociology and politics. Having visited India several times it is also easy to see how these things are inseperably united. A major difficulty for me in following debates and issues is that I have no general view on reservation quotas. Believe me, I have tried to achieve one but it is not easy. The English instituted them in the late 19th century, I believe in their ordinary "divide and rule" efforts. The system also attemps to bring a national standard to the diversified jat classifications. I do understand most abriviations like OBC and so forth but every so often a new one appears - in this article MBC - and my ability to evaluate the information is completely altered. I would exceptionally much appriciate an overview of the classification system of the quotas. There must be one somewhere as both branches of government and states use qoutas in there ads. I have tried to find such a "scedule" or nomenclature several times but not been succesful. Do you have any idea where I could find one ? If it is possible, could you suggest articles, books or e-mail adresses. most sincerely Anders Agren Stockholm , Sweden anders agren Stockholm, Sweden
May 23, 2006 12:00 AM 11	>>As many as 321 BC, 57 MBC and 14 SC students made it in the OC list. Only 38 from 'forward' communities qualified. "This shows the upholders of merit are talking rubbish," says G.R. Ravindranath of Doctors Association for Social Equality.Nonsense!! This only means that most of the forward castes have already moved from southern states that have 70% reservation! Since you have been dishing out statistics, why dont give some data on how many appeared in each segment and what is the pass percentage in each caste? Since the backward castes are doing well, why dont you abolish reservations? RSM Delhi, India
May 23, 2006 12:00 AM 10	The statistics, if taken at face value, are heartening. However, given the easy fungibility of one’s caste for the purpose of caste certificates (for example one chettiar would be "forward" while another would be BC, one nadar would be "forward" while another would be BC and some individuals “choose” the lower hierarchical position to benefit from reservation), I would take such statistics with a pinch of salt. I know several BC friends of mine who seemed to be quite "forward" and qualified for admissions to professional courses under the open category. Their own view, then, was that reservations are like an insurance policy, just in case they don't score sufficient marks in entrance exams/Class XII. I don't know how frequently these lists are reviewed/revised to move a caste in/out of a particular category. However, I feel that our governments, given their scare resources, shouldn’t be providing such an insurance. regards prakash Sydney, Australia
May 22, 2006 12:00 AM 9	Sir, Going by your article. It would seem that the case for reservations in TN no longer exists. Given the marginalisation of the so called forward castes, would would have the courgae to call for the withdrawak of reservations in TN in your magazine. Thats the problem with reservation. t never seems to end. hong will we bear the cross for our ancestors. How long will we pay taxes and get discrimitaed against. This is exactly what Orwell wrote. " In Indian democracy all are equal, the OBC's are more equal that others" aniket sunnyvale, United States
May 22, 2006 12:00 AM 8	This is the Karnataka senario: 1)Although resevartions were there(Brahmin Vs non Brahmin) earlier, it was Devaraj Urs from the Princely class who effect large scale resrvations. 2) When the next backward classes commission gave its report, it had excluded major non brahmin casts like Lingayats & Vokkaligas, all hell broke loose and no body was excluded!!!. 3)All polotical & beaurucratic(spelling?) power resides with these two castes. 4)Now, Devegowda wants to introduce inner resrvation, which will split OBCs. 6)Brahmins have been totally shunted out of government jobs and acadamic areas. 7)When Siddaramiah started his AHINDA movement for the " Backwards' Deve goda exclaimed, that every body was backward. kjs Bangalore, India
May 22, 2006 12:00 AM 7	the last comment by G.R.Ravindranathan "this shows the upholders of the merit are talking rubbish" seems ridiculous. If only 430 seats out of 1445 are available for open category and in that too only 38 from open category qualified, then it shows that the reserved classes are competent enough, and there is no need for reserving for them. When you have 1015 seats reserved and out of total 430 available for open category, 392 are occupied by reserved categories, then don't u think that the so called forward or general class is being marginalised? is this not reverse discrimination? what is the percentage proportion of general category in Tamilnadu? if its less than 3% of total population, then its alright; otherwise its marginalisation of general class. do we need classless n casteless society or do we need bloody revolutions in the name of past wrongs? The present proposal seems to be leading to the later. Krupal Bhavsar Ahmedabad, India
May 22, 2006 12:00 AM 6	If you believe S Anand's statistics for medical entrance exams at face value, it is obvious that the backward castes are fully able to compete with the forward castes. Maybe its time to abolish the reservation system in Tamil Nadu. Anand Santa Clara, USA
May 22, 2006 12:00 AM 5	By definition reservation forgoes merit to help backward castes. If it is indeed tht case that most open category seats are taken by students from backward castes (as the article implies), reservations are superfluos indeed!!!! Bhaskar Mitra Ann Arbor, USA
May 22, 2006 12:00 AM 4	The reservation issue has been raised by the Congress in order to gather votes from the backward communities. This is in keeping with its old socialist policies of trying to enforce justice by getting all to share in a small cake, instead of baking a bigger one. What has stopped this government from building 10 or 20 new large centres of education, so it can provide higher educatiob for all. And finally even if some dalits get to join IIT,s and medical colleges, how will it effect the hundreds of millions who do not make it. To show its good intentions, let the government cancell the huge order for the French submarines , and use the money exclusively for education of the OBC,s, The 13000 crore rupees will make a huge improvemnt. The submarines will achieve nothing, except for a loss to some corrupt politicians, in Arjun Singh,s party. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
May 22, 2006 12:00 AM 3	Interesting data. However, statistics is known to reveal interesting and hide the vital aspects. A few months ago, there was a cover story in a leading Indian news magazine about the plight and flight of Tamil Brahmins from Tamil Nadu. When the groups (you call them forward or whatever)affected by reservation policies know that they have hardly any chance of success they will choose different playing fields and succeed. Tamil Brahmins are of course respected for their calibre around the world. I know it because I have lived outside India for 12 years (by the way I am not a Tamil Brahmin). Ultimately, the whole issue should boil down to the principle of natural justice. Is it a fair law that punishes the children of a person who is construed to have committed wrong and who is long dead and gone? A better approach is to support the disadvantaged people irrespective of their caste or religion by providing them special attention and financial assistance. This is more dignified for everyone. The current policies are nakedly based on the principle of 'divide and rule' nothing else. Prashant Dubai, UAE
May 21, 2006 12:00 AM 2	Why can't the government be honest and openly say brahmins are no longer Indians and therefore will not be allowed in Indian colleges? If there is an open discrimination it will be easier for poorer brahmins to get into U.S. schools because of anti-discrimination laws in the U.S. You might have noticed rich brahmins are not even fighting against the reservation. Do you know why? Because they are already in the U.S. Sathya Sacramento, United States
May 20, 2006 12:00 AM 1	"In the 2005 medical entrance, out of a total of 1,445 seats in 12 medical colleges, 430 seats were available in open competition. As many as 321 BC, 57 MBC and 14 SC students made it in the OC list. Only 38 from 'forward' communities qualified. "This shows the upholders of merit are talking rubbish," says G.R. Ravindranath of Doctors Association for Social Equality." Fair enough but by allowing the so called BC's to compete both in the OC category and BC category insn't the State effectively marginalising and limiting the opportunities available to FC's. Also when BC's can compete effectively in the OC category, then what is the need to additionally reserve 30% seats for them. Moreover the most marginalized section of our Society were always the SC's and ST's never the BC's. So by what logic of social justice does BC get 30% reserved seats while a SC & ST get only 18% and 1 % reserved seats respectively. The problem is that a reverse kind of casteisim is going on in TN where the politically and socially powerful BC's have tried to corner all benefits for themselves. And in our country with lopsided ideas about social justice and secularisim such unethical and unjustified practices flourish. Navdeep Hans Delhi, India

May 20, 2006 12:00 AM 1	"In the 2005 medical entrance, out of a total of 1,445 seats in 12 medical colleges, 430 seats were available in open competition. As many as 321 BC, 57 MBC and 14 SC students made it in the OC list. Only 38 from 'forward' communities qualified. "This shows the upholders of merit are talking rubbish," says G.R. Ravindranath of Doctors Association for Social Equality." Fair enough but by allowing the so called BC's to compete both in the OC category and BC category insn't the State effectively marginalising and limiting the opportunities available to FC's. Also when BC's can compete effectively in the OC category, then what is the need to additionally reserve 30% seats for them. Moreover the most marginalized section of our Society were always the SC's and ST's never the BC's. So by what logic of social justice does BC get 30% reserved seats while a SC & ST get only 18% and 1 % reserved seats respectively. The problem is that a reverse kind of casteisim is going on in TN where the politically and socially powerful BC's have tried to corner all benefits for themselves. And in our country with lopsided ideas about social justice and secularisim such unethical and unjustified practices flourish. Navdeep Hans Delhi, India
May 21, 2006 12:00 AM 2	Why can't the government be honest and openly say brahmins are no longer Indians and therefore will not be allowed in Indian colleges? If there is an open discrimination it will be easier for poorer brahmins to get into U.S. schools because of anti-discrimination laws in the U.S. You might have noticed rich brahmins are not even fighting against the reservation. Do you know why? Because they are already in the U.S. Sathya Sacramento, United States
May 22, 2006 12:00 AM 3	Interesting data. However, statistics is known to reveal interesting and hide the vital aspects. A few months ago, there was a cover story in a leading Indian news magazine about the plight and flight of Tamil Brahmins from Tamil Nadu. When the groups (you call them forward or whatever)affected by reservation policies know that they have hardly any chance of success they will choose different playing fields and succeed. Tamil Brahmins are of course respected for their calibre around the world. I know it because I have lived outside India for 12 years (by the way I am not a Tamil Brahmin). Ultimately, the whole issue should boil down to the principle of natural justice. Is it a fair law that punishes the children of a person who is construed to have committed wrong and who is long dead and gone? A better approach is to support the disadvantaged people irrespective of their caste or religion by providing them special attention and financial assistance. This is more dignified for everyone. The current policies are nakedly based on the principle of 'divide and rule' nothing else. Prashant Dubai, UAE
May 22, 2006 12:00 AM 4	The reservation issue has been raised by the Congress in order to gather votes from the backward communities. This is in keeping with its old socialist policies of trying to enforce justice by getting all to share in a small cake, instead of baking a bigger one. What has stopped this government from building 10 or 20 new large centres of education, so it can provide higher educatiob for all. And finally even if some dalits get to join IIT,s and medical colleges, how will it effect the hundreds of millions who do not make it. To show its good intentions, let the government cancell the huge order for the French submarines , and use the money exclusively for education of the OBC,s, The 13000 crore rupees will make a huge improvemnt. The submarines will achieve nothing, except for a loss to some corrupt politicians, in Arjun Singh,s party. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
May 22, 2006 12:00 AM 5	By definition reservation forgoes merit to help backward castes. If it is indeed tht case that most open category seats are taken by students from backward castes (as the article implies), reservations are superfluos indeed!!!! Bhaskar Mitra Ann Arbor, USA
May 22, 2006 12:00 AM 6	If you believe S Anand's statistics for medical entrance exams at face value, it is obvious that the backward castes are fully able to compete with the forward castes. Maybe its time to abolish the reservation system in Tamil Nadu. Anand Santa Clara, USA
May 22, 2006 12:00 AM 7	the last comment by G.R.Ravindranathan "this shows the upholders of the merit are talking rubbish" seems ridiculous. If only 430 seats out of 1445 are available for open category and in that too only 38 from open category qualified, then it shows that the reserved classes are competent enough, and there is no need for reserving for them. When you have 1015 seats reserved and out of total 430 available for open category, 392 are occupied by reserved categories, then don't u think that the so called forward or general class is being marginalised? is this not reverse discrimination? what is the percentage proportion of general category in Tamilnadu? if its less than 3% of total population, then its alright; otherwise its marginalisation of general class. do we need classless n casteless society or do we need bloody revolutions in the name of past wrongs? The present proposal seems to be leading to the later. Krupal Bhavsar Ahmedabad, India
May 22, 2006 12:00 AM 8	This is the Karnataka senario: 1)Although resevartions were there(Brahmin Vs non Brahmin) earlier, it was Devaraj Urs from the Princely class who effect large scale resrvations. 2) When the next backward classes commission gave its report, it had excluded major non brahmin casts like Lingayats & Vokkaligas, all hell broke loose and no body was excluded!!!. 3)All polotical & beaurucratic(spelling?) power resides with these two castes. 4)Now, Devegowda wants to introduce inner resrvation, which will split OBCs. 6)Brahmins have been totally shunted out of government jobs and acadamic areas. 7)When Siddaramiah started his AHINDA movement for the " Backwards' Deve goda exclaimed, that every body was backward. kjs Bangalore, India
May 22, 2006 12:00 AM 9	Sir, Going by your article. It would seem that the case for reservations in TN no longer exists. Given the marginalisation of the so called forward castes, would would have the courgae to call for the withdrawak of reservations in TN in your magazine. Thats the problem with reservation. t never seems to end. hong will we bear the cross for our ancestors. How long will we pay taxes and get discrimitaed against. This is exactly what Orwell wrote. " In Indian democracy all are equal, the OBC's are more equal that others" aniket sunnyvale, United States
May 23, 2006 12:00 AM 10	The statistics, if taken at face value, are heartening. However, given the easy fungibility of one’s caste for the purpose of caste certificates (for example one chettiar would be "forward" while another would be BC, one nadar would be "forward" while another would be BC and some individuals “choose” the lower hierarchical position to benefit from reservation), I would take such statistics with a pinch of salt. I know several BC friends of mine who seemed to be quite "forward" and qualified for admissions to professional courses under the open category. Their own view, then, was that reservations are like an insurance policy, just in case they don't score sufficient marks in entrance exams/Class XII. I don't know how frequently these lists are reviewed/revised to move a caste in/out of a particular category. However, I feel that our governments, given their scare resources, shouldn’t be providing such an insurance. regards prakash Sydney, Australia
May 23, 2006 12:00 AM 11	>>As many as 321 BC, 57 MBC and 14 SC students made it in the OC list. Only 38 from 'forward' communities qualified. "This shows the upholders of merit are talking rubbish," says G.R. Ravindranath of Doctors Association for Social Equality.Nonsense!! This only means that most of the forward castes have already moved from southern states that have 70% reservation! Since you have been dishing out statistics, why dont give some data on how many appeared in each segment and what is the pass percentage in each caste? Since the backward castes are doing well, why dont you abolish reservations? RSM Delhi, India
May 23, 2006 12:00 AM 12	Being a student of History of Religions I inevitably came to take interest in Indian sociology and politics. Having visited India several times it is also easy to see how these things are inseperably united. A major difficulty for me in following debates and issues is that I have no general view on reservation quotas. Believe me, I have tried to achieve one but it is not easy. The English instituted them in the late 19th century, I believe in their ordinary "divide and rule" efforts. The system also attemps to bring a national standard to the diversified jat classifications. I do understand most abriviations like OBC and so forth but every so often a new one appears - in this article MBC - and my ability to evaluate the information is completely altered. I would exceptionally much appriciate an overview of the classification system of the quotas. There must be one somewhere as both branches of government and states use qoutas in there ads. I have tried to find such a "scedule" or nomenclature several times but not been succesful. Do you have any idea where I could find one ? If it is possible, could you suggest articles, books or e-mail adresses. most sincerely Anders Agren Stockholm , Sweden anders agren Stockholm, Sweden
May 23, 2006 12:00 AM 13	Anders Agren, MBC -> Most Backward Caste, a further classification in the OBCs.. In Tamilnadu, except the Brahmins and a few other castes who probably form less than 3% of the population everyone else is classified as OBCs. Some of those like "Gounders" in the west are very wealthy and Devars/Nadars in the south are politically powerful and the "creamy layer" among those groups used to garner all the seats reserved for OBCs.. Vanniyars another politically powerful but economically backward group classified as OBCs got the raw end of the stick and fought for further classification successfully and got the MC tag in late 80s.. There is very little difference in the cutoff marks for the medical admissions (For 2004 admissions, I think is 295 - OC, 294-BC, 292-MBC, 287-SC, 274-ST).. Selvan Boston, United States
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM 14	Finished. India is finished. Dinesh BC London, United Kingdom
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM 15	looks like eveyone agreeing to one point. That is TN has moved forward (all socio - economic parameters say so). So, why not move entire India forward, - make all states follow TN model. sivakumar chennai, india
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM 16	==> Shivkumar Please read the following link to guage the success of the Southern experiment. http://www.blonnet.com/...es/2006051500791000.htm Basically in TN a program to marginalise the FC has been undertaken with state sanction. As a result people belonging to the FC category in Tamilnadu are very few because a large number of them have migrated in search of better opportunities. The only difference between TN and Hitler's Germany is that there are no concentration camps in TN and that FC's can still compete on merit on the limited opportunities available. Navdeep Hans Delhi, India
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM 17	Navdeep Hans: Why are you Uppercastes loyal to your castes - a small percentage of Hindus, only about 12 percent in fact - and not the demands fof 88 percent of Hindus, the low castes? If you feel such enmity for the VAST MAJORITY of Hindus, how can you be called Hindus? If you are loyal to Himnduism, why not tell you caste to go to Hell and sympathise with the interests of the VAST MAJORITY of Hindus, on this reservation matter? In any case, why all the Uppercaste bellyaching? You should simply marry lowcastes and Dalits. Then your children will be dalit or low caste. So no problem. Simple !!! Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM 18	I was once told that for the Tam Brams (and Mylapore Mamis), the cherished dream was for their progeny to be in the US. One community I noticed where even well off parents encouraged their progeny to build "good" lives in US. I was even told, many believed for them life would have to be outside TN, and as far as they were concerned outside of TN is all "foreign", and so best "foreign" is US. I also know statistics say that the largest contingent of NRIs in US are from AP - though I don't know the caste breakdown as opposed to my emperical observations in case of Tam Brams in US. In anycase, if TN indeed did well relatively in the India context, then I guess it was good for all ... no loss to anyone, I suppose. Arun Maheshwari Bangalore, India
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM 19	"..In TN 99% of the Govt opportunities are occupied by non-FC's. Bureaucracy and the Govt. services are going in Bihar's direction. .." Folks, take the upper caste rantings with a pinch of salt.. Tamilnadu's successful handling of the Tsunami devastation was appreciated all over. I wonder how it was possible with the "lower caste" bureaucracy.. And TN did grow in double digits after that.. It is also true that the "creamy layer" among the OBCs garner all the benefits.. The "creamy layer" needs to be skimmed off for further successes.. Note: I don't have anything against any group of people.. Just pointing out the facts.. Selvan Boston, United States
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM 20	open competition (OC) folks in south are too busy trying to get out of the country.So,Blah Blah Blah ..Blah Blah.. Hence True...THE END! Outlook Reader Orlando, United States
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM 21	writer very easily forgot to mention how many So called Tamil brahmins stay outside tamilnadu, and how many of them are in cntral universities like IIT's and how many of them choose Accounting (CA, CS, ICWA) as career becouse of this bloddy quota system. pls ask him to both sides of the story before writing such BS Ramprasad Yamijala Chennai, India
May 25, 2006 12:00 AM 22	Solitude South: These are my comments: 1)In tamilnad, except brahmins everyone comes under one reservation or other. If so many BCs,MBCs,SCs outcompete forward caste students and cut into Open quota, why in place u need such quota? 2)In tamilnad, there is a state sponsored marginalisation of FCs. it is a racial discrimination .So as a result u see majority of Tamil FCs staying away from tamilnad. 3) If outlook believed in Affirmative Action, reservation blah..blah..please come out with statistics: how many STs /BCS/MBCs are employed by outlook.What are the blue colour jobs and what proportion are occupied by other meagre positions? Ghosts should not recite dacred texts.. Suresh suresh heidelberg, Germany
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM 23	I wonder whether Arjun Singh is playing a foreign inspired game to divide India. Remember what happened to Yugoslavia's 6 provices. There is nothing wrong in giving more seats to backward castes. But taking the opportunity from merritorious students or the government's right to deny the basic right of education is being discussed here. I recommend a probe by CBI against Arjun Singh and his motive. Sathya Sacramento, United States
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM 24	I think instead of COndoleeza Rice, the honour of being the other face of reservation should go to George W. Bush Srinivas Srinivas Sridhar Bangalore, India
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM 25	Merit, on subject-knowledge, alone should be the only criterion for selections to teachers’ posts from schools to universities/IITs/IIMs. Like in the defence forces, teaching is a sacred area NOT to be contaminated by caste-based reservations. If teacher-quality is compromised, for whatever reasons, education quality will suffer, equally for the reserved and open-category students. v.seshadri chennai, india
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM 26	Reservations as it happens in Tamil Nadu etc. today, seems to be deliberately designed to exclude admissions to the FCs as much as possible. Since the OBCs get over 90% of open category selections also, the FCs get only 3%. The Christians, Moslems, Jains etc. in the FC can get into minority colleges for which the reservation bill does not apply. Hence, only the Hindu Brahmins are really targeted for ‘exclusion’, since non-brahmin high-castes also get OBC certificates as some ‘insurance’ for selection under quota if not selected under general category. Possible solution would be to declare the Brahmins also as a separate minority group which can have minority colleges protected against reservations. Or, the Ramakrishna Mutt, recognized as minority [ ! ] can open colleges in engg/med. Otherwise, these people have to seek education/jobs only outside the state or abroad, which only the well-to-do or scholarship-awardees can manage. Most do not even seek jobs in the state. Have heard of a Brahmin IIT Sc-grad seeking Anna Univ job in TN being asked ‘How dare you apply?’; chap is now making a living teaching music to youngsters in Chennai & abroad via telephone. Perhaps, the new Govt can rename Anna Univ as Ravana University as one more nice act to please the noble soul of Periar, who died with thorns on heart. v.seshadri chennai, india
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM 27	Honest and straight procedure for affirmative action for OBC/BC/SC/ST would be the following: Decide on the number of seats available. Make a merit list of qualified applicants for selection, with those applying as OBC/BC/SC/ST clearly identified. Select SC/ST candidates top-down from the merit list until 22.5 % seats are filled. Select OBC/BC candidates top-down from remaining merit list until 27% seats are filled. Select candidates top-down from the remaining merit list for the remaining 50.5% of seats, irrespective of their being FC/OBC etc. This procedure will operate as a genuine reservation for the backwards instead of the current procedure where the the FCs get chance to compete only against the best among the OBCs in the general category and are excluded from selections below that line, thus making it possible for the OBC/BCs get almost all the non-SC/ST seats. Honest and straight procedure for affirmative action for OBC/BC/SC/ST would be the following: Decide on the number of seats available. Make a merit list of qualified applicants for selection, with those applying as OBC/BC/SC/ST clearly identified. Select SC/ST candidates top-down from the merit list until 22.5 % seats are filled. Select OBC/BC candidates top-down from remaining merit list until 27% seats are filled. Select candidates top-down from the remaining merit list for the remaining 50.5% of seats, irrespective of their being FC/OBC etc. This procedure will operate as a genuine reservation for the backwards instead of the current procedure where the the FCs get chance to compete only against the best among the OBCs in the general category and are excluded from selections below that line, thus making it possible for the OBC/BCs get almost all the non-SC/ST seats. v.seshadri chennai, india
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM 28	Anders Agren of Sweden seems to think that the Brittish reserved govt jobs for brahmins in the 19th century. It is not so. They wanted to train English-knowing clerks for running their Indian empire with limited number of Brittishers. They opened English schools and the brahmins who had the traditions of learning the vedas and puranas, teaching and giving religious discourses in Sanskrit and other local languages, were the first to take the opportunities for learning English and becoming govt clerks, lawyers, college teacher etc. People from other castes also followed suite later when the advantages were recognized. v.seshadri chennai, india
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM 29	The protoganists of reservation allege that the BC were suppressed for centuries by the FC and call themselves in Tamil Nadu 'Made backward'. Only the SC were suppressed. The BC had access to education including Samskrit. Only the Vedas were denied to the fourth varna. Some of the great Tamil intellectuals like Thiruvalluvar, Nammaazhwaar, Kambar and Avvaiyaar were BC. The math professor who lectured to Srinivasa Ramanujan in Pachaiappa's College in Chennai was Singaravelu Mudaliar of the fourth varna. If the BC were oppressed by the FC, were the MBC oppressed by the BC in order to agitate for a separate quota? Why don't the creamy layer among the BC abdicate in favour of the really deserving BC below them and compete as equals with the BC? R. NARASIMHAN CHENNAI, INDIA

COLLAPSE COMMENTS


Post a Comment
You are not logged in, please log in or register

Comments Policy

We at outlookindia.com welcome your feedback to the articles, stories and blogs featured by us.

But please note the following:

1. Please keep your comments/feedback limited to the subject matter of the article you are responding to. Please note that our comments section is not a general free-for-all. It is for feedback to articles/blogs posted on the site. Please try and keep your comments concise and clear. Short messages tend to get noticed and also have a high probability of getting published in our respective print magazines.

2. Please do not spam us. Please do not post the same message again and again. Even in different threads.

3. Scathing, passionate, even angry, critique is welcome; abuse and invective is not. We request civility and urge our readers to try and express their disagreements, if any, without being disagreeable. There is just no space for personal attacks. No ad hominem please.

4. If any of the above three conditions are violated, we reserve the right to delete any comment that we deem objectionable and/or also to withdraw posting privileges from the abuser(s).

Please note that it may not be possible for our moderators to sift through your messages and if they find more than one instance of abuse, they may decide to delete all your messages ever posted by you rather than spend time trying to locate all the abusive ones. Therefore, if you want us to take you seriously and for your messages to be retained on the site, please ensure that you do not cross the civil lines of propriety.

Please note that hate-speech is punishable by law and in extreme circumstances, we may be forced to take legal action by tracing the IP addresses of the poster.

Our endeavour is to keep these forums un-moderated and unexpurgated. Please help us help you.

5. If someone is being abusive or personal, or generally being a troll or a flame-baiter, please do not stoop to their level. The best response to such posters is to ignore them and send us a message with links to the offending mails at the following email address: Mail AT outlookindia DOT com. Please put "COMPLAINT" in the subject-header of your mail.

6. Please do not copy and paste copyrighted material. If you think that an article on another site has relevance to the point you wish to make, please only quote what is considered "fair-use" and provide a link to the article under question.

7. There is no particular Outlookindia.com line on any subject. The views expressed in our opinion section are those of the author concerned and do not necessarily reflect the views of Outlookindia.com

8. Please also note that the sole responsibility for the comments posted on the site is that of the relevant registered user posting the comment. The comments could be deleted or edited entirely at our discretion if we find them objectionable. However, the mere fact of a comment's existence on our site does not mean that we necessarily approve of its contents. Outlookindia.com however, retains the right to publish any of these comments, with or without editing, in any medium whatsoever.

9.Outlookindia.com is not responsible in any manner whatsoever for how any search engine -- such as Google, Bing etc -- caches or displays the comments posted by you. Please note that you are solely responsible for posting these comments and it is a privilege being granted to our registered users which can be withdrawn in case of abuse. To reiterate:

a. Comments once posted can only be deleted at the discretion of outlookindia.com
b. The comments reflect the views of the authors and not of outlookindia.com
c. Outlookindia.com is not responsible in any manner whatsoever for the way search engines cache or display these comments
d. Please therefore take due caution before you post any comments as your words could potentially show up on search engines such as Google, Bing etc.

10. There is an online thread for our comments policy. You are welcome to post your suggestions here or in case you have a specific issue, to directly email us at Mail AT outlookindia DOT com with the subject header COMPLAINT.

We look forward to your feedback.