Mohd Jaffer/Snaps India
cover Story
Rainbow Warriors
Affirmative action bridged the divide in American society. What lessons can India learn from it?
interview
The co-founder and director of the Civil Rights Project at Harvard on the university's experience with affirmative action.
Ashish Kumar Sen
interview
V-P, Diversity and Equal Opportunity Programmes, at Lockheed Martin Corporation on the company's commitment to diversity.
Ashish Kumar Sen
voices India inc
Anti-reservation stalwarts say that affirmative action doesn't hold quality hostage
Anuradha Raman
reservation
Students' protest against quotas turns vehement. But HRD minister Arjun Singh refuses to blink. Updates
Anuradha Raman
positive action
The South, with a longer history of social justice, has been quiet on quotas
S. Anand
Top US firms who are minority votaries
  • Dell Inc
  • Xerox Corporation
  • Procter and Gamble
  • Motorola Corporation
  • Johnson and Johnson
  • Lockheed Martin
  • IBM
  • Chrysler Corporation
  • Bausch & Lomb
  • Colgate-Palmolive
Top universities offering affirmative action
  • Harvard University
  • Princeton University
  • Yale University
  • University of Michigan
  • Columbia University
  • University of Colorado
  • Georgetown University
  • George Washington University
  • Cornell University
  • University of Pennsylvania

To the medicos agitating on the streets of Delhi and Mumbai, toss this question: would Condoleezza Rice have become secretary of state of the world's most powerful country had it not been for affirmative action (AA) favouring African Americans? She provided the answer in 2003, at a time when the United States was passionately debating the Supreme Court verdict in the University of Michigan case upholding AA.
 
 
"I think they saw a person that they thought had potential, and yes, I think they were looking to diversify the faculty."—on how her career benefited at Stanford Condoleezza Rice, US Secretary of State and ex-provost at Stanford University
 
 
Rice, a former provost of Stanford University, admitted she had indeed benefited during her career at the university in California. "I think they saw a person that they thought had potential, and yes, I think they were looking to diversify the faculty," she said.

As Mandal II stokes rage and resentment across a large swathe of urban India, both supporters and opponents of reservation have persistently cited America's unique AA programme to bolster their arguments. Opponents of reservation say India should follow the example of the US where minority racial groups—Blacks, native Indians, Hispanics, women—are not allocated fixed quotas in universities and jobs, and where AA is voluntary, not mandatory. The opponents rubbish these arguments, asking: why should urban Indians, slavishly imitative of America otherwise, raise the bogey of merit, considering the spectacular success of AA in the land popularly perceived to be the ultimate meritocracy?

Outlook studied the working of AA in the US for a better understanding of the system that favours in jobs, education and government contracts those minority racial groups—and also women—who have suffered from historical discrimination.
 
 
"Students come here to get a diverse experience... businesses say our wards do better because of it." Theodore L. Spencer, University of Michigan
 
 
For starters, listen to Indiana University's Prof Kevin Brown who was recently in India, "I firmly believe in the power of AA, and don't see why it won't work in India, after it was experimented in the US."

In the US, the evolution of AA is closely linked to the nation's history, reflecting the admirable sensitivity of institutions to social churning here. In the early '60s, as civil rights protests raged across the US, several universities began to take a closer look at the racial composition of student bodies. Realising that their campuses didn't reflect the social diversity of the nation, elite institutions like Princeton, Harvard and Yale began to voluntarily admit a handful of Black students every year, overlooking grades or test scores below admission prerequisites.

The voluntary nature of AA acquired statutory backing through the passing of the Civil Rights Act, 1964—it barred discrimination by employers and recipients of federal financial assistance, including colleges and universities. AA, under the Civil Rights Act, was a useful remedy to combat racial segregation but only applied to colleges and universities in those 19 states which had legally separate colleges for African and White Americans.
 
 
The '60s civil rights protests made US varsities realise that social diversity didn't reflect on the campus.
 
 
In universities outside these 19 states it is voluntary—whether or not they receive educational grants from the government—but most of the more selective schools have decided to opt for it. AA, however, is mandatory for all universities in the US receiving money for federal contracts and research, though the programme is confined to employment, not in admission of students.

In the initial years of the Civil Rights Act, some universities set aside a fixed number of seats for racial minorities. The precise number of reserved seats was not legislated; it was decided individually by universities. In 1978, however, the Supreme Court abolished the quota system as unconstitutional, though it did not proscribe AA. Prof Gary Orfield, director of the Civil Rights Project at Harvard University, explains, "Our Supreme Court outlawed quotas. So we have no seats set aside for any racial group. This is a fundamental difference between the American and Indian AA system".

Prof Thomas E. Weisskopf, author of Affirmative Action in the United States and India: A Comparative Perspective, says AA in India has been introduced from the top: the state has mandated a slew of legislations to discriminate in favour of marginalised groups. "In the US, the bulk of the affirmative action comes from below—institutions and companies whose leadership has decided that it is good to have more racial and ethnic diversity," Weisskopf says.
 
 
"Colleges look for interesting students...they admit those who they believe can survive the academic experience." Shirley Wilcher, American Association for Affirmative Action
 
 
Perhaps the state's intervention in India has been necessitated because its private sector, unlike that of the US, has been indifferent to the idea of bringing marginalised groups into the national mainstream—and diversifying the professional class.

Yet, Weisskopf says, reservation of 50 per cent "for formally less qualified but potentially successful AA beneficiaries could result in the inclusion of those who do not really have the potential to succeed". High percentage of reservation could also invite backlash—and erode AA. Weisskopf explains, "A high percentage of reservation will lead to a much higher degree of resentment among non-beneficiaries about the unfairness of process, which—even when not justified—can undermine the efforts to integrate marginalised groups into society."

Resistance to AA is inevitable. Even voluntary AA programmes have had strident opponents in the US. Take the University of Michigan case of 2003. Barbara Grutter failed to get admission to the university's law school in 1996. She subsequently found out that Blacks and ethnic minorities who had lower overall scores had been admitted. Grutter filed a lawsuit claiming she was a victim of discrimination. The Supreme Court ruled race can be used in admission decisions, but added a caveat saying universities must take into account multiple factors—that nobody could be admitted just on the grounds of race.


No colour codes: NY Police Academy graduates throw their gloves in the air, part of a convocation ritual

Neither grades nor race is the sole factor universities take into account here at the time of admission.

 
 
"A high percentage of reservation means a higher degree of resentment over the unfair process." Thomas E. Weisskopf, Author, Affirmative Action in the United States and India
 
 
This is why Shirley Wilcher, interim executive director of the Washington-based American Association for Affirmative Action, says the backlash against AA is unreasonable. Colleges don't just consider grades for admission, even in the case of White students. They look for "interesting students. They look for interesting stories and experiences". Universities also take into account a student's statement of purpose, her hobbies, and her sense of self. Race is just one more factor on a long list of prerequisites for admission. Wilcher, therefore, says it's absurd to believe students admitted under AA are underqualified. "Colleges don't admit just anyone," she argues. "They admit students who they believe can survive the academic experience." More than Blacks, it's White females who have benefited from AA, yet few have criticised the advantages accruing to them.


All set for sail: US troops at a parade in Ellis Island, NY

In the absence of quotas, most universities decide on their own the number of students who ought to be admitted under AA.

 
 
California outlawed AA after Proposition 209, in 1996. Berkeley has seen a drastic drop in Black students.
 
 
Prof Kevin Brown of Indiana University says one method of deciding on the precise number is to have a notion of critical mass. "Invariably, this would be around 15 per cent of the total population of students in college. But unlike a fixed quota, the critical mass could vary," he says.

Such concepts, though, are the concern of just a fifth of all universities in the US. As Prof Orfield says, "This is because most of our universities are not very competitive. In most universities, they admit most of the students who apply." But AA has also transformed elite institutions like Harvard. "Before AA, the top tier of our system was overwhelmingly White," Prof Orfield points out.

AA is not restricted to the universities. In 1965, President Lyndon Johnson signed Executive Order 11246, which requires that businesses and universities receiving federal contracts do not discriminate, and also that they must use AA in employment. The Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs (OFCCP) in the US department of labour conducts regular evaluations, and cancels contracts of those found in non-compliance. It also gives awards every year to contractors who have established comprehensive workforce strategies to ensure equal employment opportunity.

Here again, though, there are no fixed quotas. Every company evolves its own AA policy, including recruitment and placement goals. "The AA regulations emphasise that goals are not quotas...the measure for compliance is a good faith effort," says Wilcher who headed the OFCCP during the Clinton years.

Three states though have outlawed AA. In November 1996, California voters approved Proposition 209, a measure that outlawed racial preferences in the operation of public employment, education and contracting. Ditto Washington state and Florida. Incidentally, following Proposition 209, the University of Berkeley in California has witnessed a sharp decline in its Black student population.

Ward Connerly, chairman of the American Civil Rights Institute, endorses such enactments. A Black himself, he argues, "Affirmative action confines Black people to a lifetime of differential treatment on the premise that they cannot compete." There's also the "social cost" of resentment among those who feel they have been kept out by less qualified people. "There is even more resentment when you are generations away from the harm that was done to one's ancestors. People who are benefiting now from AA never lived as slaves," Connerly points out.

He says the quality of University of California improved following the adoption of Proposition 209, and the university began admitting students on academic achievements alone. "Colleges are lowering standards to admit Blacks, native Americans and Hispanics," he laments, claiming children of these social groups are simply not interested in pursuing academics.


All together: University of Michigan students applaud a Supreme Court verdict favouring affirmative action in admissions

Supporters of AA, however, claim it's erroneous to link meritocracy exclusively to standardised tests. Test scores, as Prof Orfield contends, are crucially dependent upon students' family backgrounds, their wealth, their privileged schooling. "If you're going to just admit on the basis of test scores, you will be perpetuating social stratification, not just on racial but also on class grounds," he warns, claiming tests are imperfect indicators of what students could achieve in their life. "But if you consider merit to be determination and willingness to learn, and not just reflections of the opportunities you've had, you will identify different kinds of students. These students do just as well as ones you pick on the basis of test scores," he asserts.

Theodore L. Spencer, executive director of undergraduate admissions at University of Michigan, has this to say about the institute's experience of AA, "Many students come to this university to get a diverse experience. They feel diversity has helped them. Businesses also say that students who come from colleges with diverse backgrounds do better. The military has said the same thing about its leaders." This apart, Spencer says minority students who have graduated from good universities have done exceedingly well.

Wilcher agrees, contending that much of the Black middle class in the US owes its success to AA. For this reason alone, AA should continue, irrespective of the opposition to it. She says, "You will always have detractors who feel they will be at the losing end because they have to compete with people they wouldn't have had to compete against in the first place. But these people have the talent...they simply need to be given the opportunity." Those who have had the opportunity are making America proud. Think of Condoleezza Rice, think of another AA beneficiary—her predecessor Colin Powell.

interview
The co-founder and director of the Civil Rights Project at Harvard on the university's experience with affirmative action.
Ashish Kumar Sen
interview
V-P, Diversity and Equal Opportunity Programmes, at Lockheed Martin Corporation on the company's commitment to diversity.
Ashish Kumar Sen
voices India inc
Anti-reservation stalwarts say that affirmative action doesn't hold quality hostage
Anuradha Raman
reservation
Students' protest against quotas turns vehement. But HRD minister Arjun Singh refuses to blink. Updates
Anuradha Raman
positive action
The South, with a longer history of social justice, has been quiet on quotas
S. Anand
 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
May 28, 2006 12:00 AM
90
Dinesh

The middleclass of today so hated and despised by the commies , the left and the casteists were
poor themselves just one generation before.

They made it by hard work, luck and circumstances. But they did not steal it from the poor. People like Murthy etc have made their money by developing new technologies and businesses never known before. They got no help from the state, or the babus. Even so these people have helped the nation enormously. They have created a million jobs or so directly, and perhaps 5 to 10 million jobs indirectly. They have made India a repected country.,

In which way have they exploited the poor.

In Russia after the october revolution the well educated and the Kulaks were hunted in Russia,
Every one knows what happened thereafter.

Its shameful that people who have done nothing themselves, especially the gang of four in this forum, point fingers at those who have done so. These people are the non doers, envious of those who do, Their great sucess of which they are so proud of is to use fancy words more to impress us ignorants, but have no message which makes any sense. A garbage collector does more good then these pitiful , opiniated and sanctimonious
scum.

All the countries which have done well have done so by rewarding and praising the elite. States like Bengal and Kerala who have done the opposite have punished themselves. Now no sensible entrepeneur will invest in Bengal.
The only people they can attract are the leftist
cranks who write in this forum. The fanciful social justice provided have bankrupted these states, in comparison with a state like Gujerat
with 10 % plus growth.

The left has ruined India dureing its rule. Now its at it again.With the help of friends.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM
89
Gas Bagai writes:

>>I should not get angry with you.

You should because that's the natural reaction of cornered animals.

>>No body on this forum thinks anything of your skills.

I remember somebody almost on the verge of tears begging to "stop the destructive criticism" not too far back.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM
88
Old Chimp

I should not get angry with you. I consider you to be of the animal kingdom, but if I was being
charitable I would say you belong to the unter menchen.

No body on this forum thinks anything of your skills. Unless its farting, and writeing crap.

However I thinks its great that you think so much of yourself. Thats at least one person here.

Your praising yourself for many skills is comic. But its OK if thats all you have to make you feel good.


lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM
87
Dinesh BC - "And Narayan Murthy. You would know. Ask the toppers (rank 1-10) of board exams in India. They fear IIT entrance like nothing else."

Dinesh , Correction.

Narayana Murthy of Infosys did his Engineering from National Institute of Engineering, Mysore , affiliated to Mysore university and not IIT.
shankar
Mumbai, India
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM
86
Hi Oldie. The SC's site i went through makes me wonder how such oppressed community is yet so polite in its demands. I think OBC's are scoundrals. The real needy ones are the SC's.
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM
85
Hi Oldie, This one is much more closer to my experience. this one is really brilliant


http://www.ambedkar.org...wat/WB_Dalits_Rawat.htm
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM
84
Yes OLD MAC. I read this interview in Rediff Earlier. I respect this guy Udit Raj, but he has got atleast some or I think most points wrong.

a)The private colleges are separate institues. No IIT. AIIMs or other institute would tolerate any transfers from the private college to these. Not even lesser ones such as NIT's or other government collge. So the analogy of Private college falls flat head on.
b) So then Udit Raj and pro reservationists must agree and accept to the proposal to create separate colleges for OBC's/ SC's Muslims etc. That would be correct per the private analogy. Let goverment fund 10 billion of taxpayers money into that. I dont think you will see any protest on that.
c) Dalits live absymal lifes even after reservations. Proving that its not implementable is the citation of Yaday that there are just a tiny numbers of Professors in Delhi Univ. inspite of reservation. So reservations failed. Thats why udit Raj a SC leader is speaking for OBC's. Moreover, the experience of the SC's coming out of IIT's been of complete destruction of self confidence. Did Udit Raj bother to study that.
d)Udit Raj>>> Now they have been given 50 per cent of the total seats whereas the upper caste population is just 15 per cent. I think that is good enough. What more do the upper castes want?
...typical language of us and them. India does not win a single gold medal in Olympics. Should therefore we have reservations there in propotion to our population. My direct question is: Whats the role of State? Create Champions or put choosen people on the podium? Thats what Hitler used to do.
e) Finally Udit Raj is right. The only reason why congress is putting this reservation into the stack is because otherwise Rahul baba will have difficulty becoming prime minister. Period. All else is tragic drama. (Farce is comic, so I am not using it).

OLD Mac, My hope is Udit Raj reads this and responds. I promise to answer or become a convert.
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM
83
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM
82
Good Old Mac. Let me answer that for you.

a) Mittal. Do I need to elaborate more?
b) Why India is backward? Socialism. Out of 60 years over 50 years were by Social Justice Party. And who made the current India believe it can become superpower? BJP.
c) Whats China? What Ranking? IIT's are THE BEST institutes in the world. Inspite of poorly funded compared to other institutes. What most rankings do is to simply weigh the facilities and opportunities. Joke of all, Businessweek had Manipal Included couple of years back as amongst the best, and no IIT's. What piece of shit.
Ask Gupta of Mckinsey or Rekhi or countless others. And Narayan Murthy. You would know. Ask the toppers (rank 1-10) of board exams in India. They fear IIT entrance like nothing else. Getting admissions in Stanford and Wharton is relatively cakewalk. Only if funds were available. They battle everything to reach tops of Vodaphone, Orange, Mckensey. Create Infosys, Mittalco, Reliance...and battle on. This after being subjugated for more than 10 Centuries and then the socialism. What Merit? Any finer examples? Who are chinese? Where are they? They can only overtake Indian army of skilled workers if our government kills the Industry.
c)About Indian Doctors and Schools. Half of all GP's you spot in UK are Indians. I dont know about the scene in US. And Last month my friend went to India from UK to get treatement. Its quicker, cheaper and better even though NHS here claims to be free!
d) The link you sent is fully a piece of misinformation. from an uninformed source. God. Sourcing information from China. Thats the biggest joke.

Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM
81
Repost - corrected

Gas Bagai writes:

>>I never get any answer to any point that I raise, but lots of abuse from sundry people.

Is it because you have squandered any good-will of being presumed as a thinking person by asking stupid questions such as what I look like, what I do for a living etc?

>>Our society in India is deeply devided. The well of are fair game for people like Old Mac, and Henduklal. Our opinion of such people is also pretty bad and quite unprinteable.

The unprintability actually arises from your attrocious third-world linguistic, composition and analytical skills. Not to mention you're easily dumbfounded by anyone with a pulse....
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM
80
Gas Bagai writes:

>>I never get any answer to any point that I raise, but lots of abuse from sundry people.

Is it because you have squandered any good-will of being presumed as a thinking person by asking stupid questions such as how I look like, what I do for a living etc?

>>Our society in India is deeply devided. The well of are fair game for people like Old Mac, and Henduklal. Our opinion of such people is also pretty bad and quite unprinteable.

The unprintability actually arises from your attrocious third-world linguistic, composition and analytical skills. Not to mention you're easily dumbfounded by anyone with a pulse....
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM
79
Sorry but one point. No civilisation ever progessed on the ruins of their elite. Not the russians nor the chinese. But Japanese, Europeans and Americans who preserved elistism, always marched ahead of others. The European and American ploy of discrediting the Hinduism by exploiting rigid caste system was also meant to break the backbone of the elite. It suited indira also to continue , just to prove that State was superior. And now, its all crude and crass vote bank politics. But do you realy think, people who have been able to dominate for centuries just by alluding to some invisible karma, will loose their brilliance overnight and would not do all they can (And win) against the current onslaught. But the most important point from strategic perspective for the backwards is that Is Confrontation necessarily beneficial to OBS's? This is pure strategy question for OBS's.
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM
78

http://www.ambedkar.org/News/News041806.htm


Adds to Lalkrishna's Times of India article (which I couldn't locate)....
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM
77
Some people who write here are engineers, or professionals. They come up with arguments, on the whole fairly sensible. Or so I think.

Then we have some, I am sure they are not from
these professions, whose comments are mostly emotional, and full of blind prejudice.Thats my opinion.

The two can never agree .

I never get any answer to any point that I raise, but lots of abuse from sundry people.

Our society in India is deeply devided. The well of are fair game for people like Old Mac, and Henduklal. Our opinion of such people is also pretty bad and quite unprinteable.

On the basis of all this hate, I am sure that India will get devided in fact as it is spirit.
The east will be the green red and black paradise. The west will be a place for traditional Hindus who prefer a set up of free market econonmics.If the dalits and OBC,s and muslims feel that they are being exploited , then it may be best for them to live in certain states where are in a majority, and where they can rule themselves. Then there will be no exploitation and no one to blame.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM
76
LALKRISHNA HENDUKLAL...one more point. Please and please do investigate, how many of ministers in UK are Eton Educated and what it means. Also , and please also do study some scholorly works of say Drucker..(Did I hear who?) and you would know about caste in Western Societies better. Simply put, in India we had it rigid, in west it was subtle. Read good authentic books, whose authors have stood the test of time and dont write rhetorical garbage, to know more.
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM
75
The undermentioned arguements was in response to LALKRISHNA HENDUKLAL
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
May 27, 2006 12:00 AM
74
>>>>And as far as hard work is concerned,Mr.Bagai,who works in the agricultural fields of India, so that India can relish the green revolutuion?? The SC/ST's and the OBCs.


Its a hardwork for the politicians to get an effective solution that would create and distribute wealth. Its not for OBC's. I assume, you are are not suggesting that they bring their agricultural skills to study medicine and software and business management.

The point is, there is no short cuts in this ultra competitive global world. You have to create army of people with required skills and let them win.

Now and because you rightly pointed out that most hardworking people are really from backword community, why not provide them with the enabling environment and let them win on their own merits. Why does the government want to put them on the podium of winners rather than taking the long but proven steps of providing the facilitis and infrastructure? Is it the case of pro-reservationists that they are simply inferior and cannot compete against upper caste, no matter what the enabling environment is built for them. Or does backdoor the only means this government can afford to think of? These are the points.

Its the hardwork by the government not by the the backwords that is being questioned.
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM
73
Navdeep Hans:

what are you loyal to: the majority of Hindus or your petty caste? part of my family are Nairs - but I couldn't care less if reservation hits the Nairs. It's the interests of the Hindu majority that concerns me. Maybe that is why I am a Hindu and you are a mere Uppercasteist.
Ramdas Bajjanbhai
Jinja, Uganda
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM
72
==> VJ
Caste has remained a reality because it was convenient for the politicians. Discrimination within a society exists everywhere. Even abroad in the olden days the kings and queens never ussed to mix with the commoners and so on.
You can't compare caste differences with the differences between a developed and developing nation because it is like comapring apples and oranges.
However even going by your comparisons, you may note that in Olympics or other Internationally held competitions - just because a person comes from a developing country, does not mean that he or she is entitled to any additional benefit like reservation. All compete on the same level. The only area where the needs of a developing nation is given priority is in terms of aid etc. However in all other spheres the developing nation has to compete at the same level as that of the developed nation.
Why should it be different in India. Why should a section of the society be discriminated against. Isn't it because today that section is a minority and has no voice? Isn't it casteism in reverse?
yes mistakes happened in the past like in every society, but why penalize the current generation fo it. What is wrong in everybody competing at the same level. And this myth about the upper caste being more economically well off is all rubbish. They are as well off or as bad off as their other counterparts.
The only community that can genuinely claim reservation are the SC/ST. However because of the creamy layer among them not being exempted the benefits hardly reach the intended beneficiaries and hence the downtrodden among them continue to remain downtrodden.
Navdeep Hans
Delhi, India
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM
71
Caste is not the only reality in India.
There are no backward Punjabis, or Sindhis.
There are different castes amongst us with some of their implications, but you will not find many Punjabi,s, Marwaris, Gujeratis or Rajasthanis begging on the roads. We are proud enough to face hardships and raise ourselves and our families by our boot stps , and have done so.
No need for handouts.Punjabis, Sindhis who were were thrown out of Pakistan are doing extremely well. Is there any doubt about this.

Bengalis , Biharis and muslims in general are not doing well. Always asking for hand outs. The
muslims do not have a caste system, but now they have also joined the que. The trend in India for people like Brother BB is to beg and moan. No guts and no pride.

Anyway as I have pointed out is that there are
hundreds of millions of people who need simple
well paying jobs. They can not be helped by giveing a few of them a chance to enter IIT,s
without their being qualified. It will deveide society as never before, and will not help the backwards.

This is the sloppy way Indians think. No wonder the country is in a mess.

I Denmark and Europe also there are classes. The workers and the elite. Its normal practice for children of the working class to get similar jobs. As is the custom of children of engineers, doctors to go for similar opportunities. The
commies compalin about it, but it is accepted as normal.

It is people like Brother BB who feel ashamed of working with their hands, Not just that, they are ashamed of being dark in colour. This is just pathatic.

The commies made life difficult for the elite from out of Bengal. Most of them were non engalis ./ Easy targets They quit and took their money with them. Bengal is stuck in poverty.
Budhu Bhattacharya is now begging them to return, but no mind in his right will. Same goes for the African countries.

India will face a similar situation. The smart elite should quit and live abroad, without being pestered by the backwards and the minorities.
One alternative suggestion would be for India to be partioned again. Hindu India in the West with Gujerat, Rajathan as the nucleas. Let the Lalloos and the Mayawatis and the minorities take the rest and drive it into the gutters,

I know that my kids and grandkids will have the best of education. All of our families know, that their kids would face all sorts of problems
in India. Simple solution is to stay in USA and Europe. India will be the looser.Not them.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM
70
Ravindra Kalia writes:

>>I sent the unedited comments in a hurry.

You sent thoughtless comments.

>>Please use your name and address I did.

Why?

>>I have been the President of Faculty Association at the University I gave the address in my initial letter.

Which inures no presumption of any kind….

>>In the United States, men are addressed as Mr. Should I call you "Commisar.?"

Mac will do…..only pompous asses that are nervous about their intellectual status are meticulous about their titles…..

>>I understand Affirmative Action in America as I was one of the members of the President (of my University) appointed member of the Minority Concerns Committee.

You understand squat about the differences in culture which makes transplanting Affirmative Action and arguments supporting it far from a simple transference exercise.

>>Our committee's recommendation was requested from the top Universities in the States for its detailed nature. I believe that the United States is not enough in the area of Affirmative Action.

If the United States is not enough…what is enough?

>>Most qualified students from Asia are denied admission to Stanford, Harvard, and other top 10 Universities even if they have GPA of 4 and they are valedictorians in favor of less qualified whites and few minorities that are admitted.

Get to your point quickly….if you have one.

>>Such an action at a California University was a subject of a law suite at the US Supreme Court.

And…….

>>There is, I maintain, no need to lower the standards at IIts and IIMs and similarly placed schools. The future of India is at stake.

A conclusion unsupported by any analysis…..or connected to above comments.

>>Rational decisions can only raise India to a higher pedestal.

But empty slogans do nothing…

>>India needs to spend more money in research and design at all the Universities and IITs.

Disconnected thoughts continue…..

>>Let the admission policy be left to the institutions.

And if the institutions discriminate?

>>In the United States, the government does not interfere in academic policies.

Ever heard of Title VII or Title IX funding? Ever heard of the Civil Rights Enforcement Division at the Department of Education? Do you know all the reporting requirements of student body demographics to Education Department?
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM
69
Dear Sir,
Something which your readers have been highlighting, you have have gone all out to prove that OUTLOOK is another CONGRESSI propoganda machine. In your latest edition's article (Two faces of Reservation), it was futile effort from your side to justify the congress blunder. How can you even compare US Standards with our ploitician's selfish goals. You talked about Condoleezza Rice, Please name one leader of her standard who can be compared. Moreever, the term is Affermative Action and not reservation. the intention is very clear, ONLY DERVING CANDIDATE AFTER LOT OF INTROSPECTION GETS IN and not every one who has scored even below 14% and has a relaxed attitude in life.

Till recently i was a staunch supporter of Congress, but now even ive started realising, they have only one agenda, DESTROY THE COUNTRY WHATEVER IT TAKES.

Very sorry to See Dr Manmohan Singh being party to such decisions for few votes. Let us not forget, the 70% votes they are talking about, I must remind them that in such case, VP Singh would have been the PM and not Dr. Manmohan Singh. But let us wait and watch and let them see for themselves that the decision has not gone well with people. I will actively camp with people, which i have not done so far and make sure these CONGRESSIS do not come in power.

GOD SAVE THE COUNTRY. And lastely, please will outlook and its sister concern publish data about people employed in each sector which belong to OBC/SC/St. Let us see how many people are serving this esteemed organisation in:

Lower Grade Employees
Freshers
Middle Management
Higer Management

Let the charity begin from home Mr. Vinod Mehta and let us also see how merit replaces reservations.
Suar Singh
Delhi, India
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM
68
It's surprising to notice that people use terms loosely without understanding anything about them. So many people - including those from the media - have opined that they are against offering quotas on the basis of caste, but that they would appreciate if quotas are offered on the basis of economic status. If only they care to understand how castes are classified, in the first place, as backward and otherwise, they would realize how absurdly contradictory their stand is!

Just as the line between the developed, developing, and underdeveloped nations is obvious in the world, the line between the developed, developing and underdeveloped castes too is. These dictinctions are done on the basis of 'averages'. When you push for greater representation of third-world countries in the UN or other forums, you go by names of countries rather than selecting only the poor states or districts or colonies in those countries. Same is the case when government refers to castes rather than families, and this is not insensible, for there's a strong correlation between castes and economic levels.

Do all these protesters believe that if they were born into poor and underprivileged families they would still have become what they are today? And what do they expect government to come up with? Statements like - "22.5% for students from families whose annual income is less than or equal to Rs.20000, 27% for students from familes whose annual income is less than or equal to Rs.60000"? In that case, why do you need quotas at all? Just ask students to get income certificates and avail of scholarships. It does good to understand that quotas are not to address economic gap (scholarships very much take care of this), but the gap in aptitudes. And if they believe quotas are not the right way to address this, let them come up with a good alternative rather than booing the decision.

And all that talk about "shift the focus to schools" is again a simple escape route and utterly lacking in insight. Similar to the correlation between income groups and the choice of cinemas they go to or the choice of modes of transport they opt for, there's as strong a correlation between economic status and the choice of schools. You don't expect a rich businessman to send his son to the same school that his chauffeur's son goes to. So, even if you shift the focus to schools, it does little to erase the prejudice. Besides, given the standard of infrastructure and faculty we have in government schools, the logistics would remain same as they are at graduation level.

All the same, I'm not suggesting that quotas are the best way to address the situation or that they will prove to be effective. As a policy, quotas are, undoubtedly, good for a society in which discrimination is rife. As regards how they are implemented, I differ with the government.
Vj
Hyderabad, India
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM
67
There is a big difference between AA and quota. AA is used more to improve the diversity of the student body. By no means is merit compromised by AA. Instead AA has helped universities achieve better results.
AA was required in US because active racisim there had earlier prevented qualified non whites in getting access to better opportunities. With AA qualified and meritorious non whites will have as much if not more opportunities available to them as available to equivvalent whites. AA does not mean that non whites have to be less meritorious than the whites and still be granted admission.

Navdeep Hans
Delhi, India
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM
66
Satyarth writes:

>>Upliftment of backward section will occur with better school access and basic college education, as with tuition waivers, seat reservation in graduate colleges. Becoming a plastic surgeon will not add any extra social benefit. Our esteemed politicians who are acting as crusaders, will lower the standards of medical fraternity, and will go abroad for their healthcare abroad at our expense.

Plenty of social benefit from an unprivileged caste member becoming a plastic surgeon....living proof that they can, discrediting those who believe they can't...and a testimonial to everyone, including the kids, that their origins do not limit their potential. Such inspirational power is worth more than money.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM
65
It is becoming obvious that media is siding with the government on the issue of extending reservation on basis of caste. I agree that the pre-existing reservation in medical and engineering colleges was perhaps ok. But reserving seats in superspecialty seats in medicine, which are extremely few compared to the number of MBBS seats, is clearly disheartening to many hard working aspirants.

Upliftment of backward section will occur with better school access and basic college education, as with tuition waivers, seat reservation in graduate colleges. Becoming a plastic surgeon will not add any extra social benefit. Our esteemed politicians who are acting as crusaders, will lower the standards of medical fraternity, and will go abroad for their healthcare abroad at our expense.
satyarth kulshrestha
Rochester, United States
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM
64
Ajay writes:

>>old mac - you are trying to find the grammatical errors in rants and raves area. You need to read few more blogs before you will be over your fascination with technical aspects of English language over the content.

Its not about finding grammatical errors. Its about assessing a person's credibility in what is said and how it is said.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM
63
what does it(reservation) do a person's self esteem, by taking the reservation he/she is openly admitting that i am not good enough to compete
Ajay
Troy, usa
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM
62
Condy Rice and Powell both are extremely poor examples of anything good coming out of AA (unless author wants to prove that how AA helped incompetent people to top posts)

Ajay
Troy, usa
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM
61
that is the problem with the followers of Ambedkar, they refuse to be part of main stream, they insist on divisive policies (reservation is divisive).
Ajay
Troy, usa
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM
60
old mac - you are trying to find the grammatical errors in rants and raves area. You need to read few more blogs before you will be over your fascination with technical aspects of English language over the content
Ajay
Troy, usa
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM
59
Hans, responding to Ramesh Raghuvanshi, writes:

>>Ar u kidding. U actually want to sprout Manu Smriti to justify your cause? Which Century are u living in. Just because centuries ago some nut created something evil does not mean that we should all follow the same in reverse order now.

Because in the 21st century, highly educated nuts, including astrophysicists, are fretting over superstitious details about where their house entrance should be and where the kitchen is located in a new house. Manusmriti has no expiration label ”good only to use till 20th century.”

>>However if that may be, then let's correct all the wrongs perpetrated centuries ago by repeating the same in reverse order now. Which also means that we should bring in a law that treats Men as second class citizens over women....

If that is the extent of your imagination, you are badly in need of an intellectual enema.

Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM
58
VJ writes:

>>If 'merit' is the absolute criterion - as it indeed should be - why is there no voice against the NRI quota….

After we internalize the notion of equal access, then we tackle the concept of “merit.” Right now, it is understood in a formalistic instead of substantive manner.

>>I'm neither for nor against the quota system. I'm just thinking out loud to understand the logic. Let's cut out the silly distinctions of caste and all - these are quoted for political advantages rather than to actually benefit any group. Let's consider the four basic categories, based on money and aptitude –

There is nothing silly about such distinctions since they overwhelmingly determine people’s lives and limit their potential.

>>1.Has money, has aptitude - these chaps don't need any reservation, for they can make it to the course of their choice.
>>2.Has money, no aptitude - these chaps cannot make it to the course of their choice, but they can opt for the same course abroad, or in any institute that offers that course for money. These chaps also don't need reservations.
>>3.Has no money, has aptitude - these chaps can make it to the course of their choice, and scholarship schemes take care of their need for money. These chaps also don't need reservations.
>>4.Has no money, has no aptitude - these chaps can neither make it to the course of their choice nor can afford to pursue the course elsewhere. What should happen to these chaps?

Your decision matrix is irrelevant if gatekeepers keep out people based on caste though giving pretextual reasons. If you don’t think that happens, then you are hopelessly naïve.

>>So, is there a better solution than quota system?

Not in the short-run.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM
57
I sent the unedited comments in a hurry. Please use your name and address I did. I have been the President of Faculty Association at the University I gave the address in my initial letter. In the United States, men are addressed as Mr. Should I call you "Commisar.?" I understand Affirmative Action in America as I was one of the members of the President (of my University) appointed member of the Minority Concerns Committee. Our committee's recommendation was requested from the top Universities in the States for its detailed nature. I believe that the United States is not enough in the area of Affirmative Action. Most qualified students from Asia are denied admission to Stanford, Harvard, and other top 10 Universities even if they have GPA of 4 and they are valedictorians in favor of less qualified whites and few minorities that are admitted. Such an action at a California University was a subject of a law suite at the US Supreme Court.
There is, I maintain, no need to lower the standards at IIts and IIMs and similarly placed schools. The future of India is at stake.

Rational decisions can only raise India to a higher pedestal.

India needs to spend more money in research and design at all the Universities and IITs. Let the admission policy be left to the institutions.
In the United States, the government does not interfere in academic policies.

Professor Ravindra Kalia
SCSU, St Cloud,MN USA
Ravindra Kalia
Lucknow, India
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM
56
Repost - corrected

Ravindra Kalia writes:

>>Ashish Kumar Sen does not understand Affirmative Action in the US. I do. I teach in a US university for over 25 years.

His claim to understand Affirmative Action in the US is suspect. A university professor who muffs a simple English sentence doesn't have much credibility. “I teach in a US university for over 25 years.”?.....you were supposed to say, “I have taught in US universities for over 25 years” Herr, Professor.

>>The AA in the USA means few representatives of ethnic groups from Blacks, Hispanics, Latinos, and American Indians (natives) be admitted to the Universities. My University has about 7% minorities.

In a state that has less than 4% of the population that is minority…..Associate Professor of Chaddism.

>>Why does not USA adopt such a policy? The answer is simple. USA wants to survive as a strongest economy and world power.

Generally in the U.S., people aren’t prejudged by their caste. That type of exquisite bigotry is generally pervasive in India.

>>We can , of course have Affirnmative Action based on economic status and some ethnic issues as in the USA.

High correlation between caste and economics and easy manipulability of economic status makes caste based reservations the only meaningful solution. After all, how hard is to get a bogus income certificate in India?
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM
55
Ravindra Kalia writes:

>>Ashish Kumar Sen does not understand Affirmative Action in the US. I do. I teach in a US university for over 25 years.

His claim to understand Affirmative Action in the US is suspect. A university professor who muffs a simple English sentence doesn't have much credibility. “I teach in a US university for over 25 years.”?.....you were supposed to say, “I have taught in US universities for over 25 years” Herr, Professor.

>>The AA in the USA means few representatives of ethnic groups from Blacks, Hispanics, Latinos, and American Indians (natives) be admitted to the Universities. My University has about 7% minorities.

In a state that has less than 4% of the population that is minority…..Associate Professor of Chaddism.

>>Why does not USA adopt such a policy? The answer is simple. USA wants to survive as a strongest economy and world power.

Generally in the U.S., people aren’t prejudged by people's caste. That type of exquisite bigotry is generally pervasive in India.

>>We can , of course have Affirnmative Action based on economic status and some ethnic issues as in the USA.

High correlation between caste and economics and easy manipulability of economic status makes caste based reservations the only meaningful solution. After all, how hard is to get a bogus income certificate in India?
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM
54
Ashish Kumar Sen does not understand Affirmative Action in the US. I do. I teach in a US university for over 25 years. The AA in the USA means few representatives of ethnic groups from Blacks, Hispanics, Latinos, and American Indians (natives) be admitted to the Universities. My University has about 7% minorities. Harvard, MIT, Stanford and Caltaech, and others have much less. There, even minorities have to compete.
Harvard, MIT, and other top universities deliver the best research and innovations due to excellence based on merit. As for Condileeza Rice Example, we have our Jagjivan Rams. No country in the world has reserved constituencies except India. Why does not USA adopt such a policy? The answer is simple. USA wants to survive as a strongest economy and world power.

I have heard of respect in the media for IITs and IIMs & from Professors from Universties in the USA who praised the excellence in academics.
India cannot maintain its economic status and excellence.
Arjun Singh's insistence and PM's puppet like leadership is a blot on India.
It is about time we abolish reservation that was required by our constitution in the first ten years from 1950.
We can , of course have Affirnmative Action based on economic status and some ethnic issues as in the USA.

Communists have never shown nationalism for the progress of India, as is evidenced now by such misinformed articles by a media with a goal to start class war at the detriment of India.
Can INdia do rational things? Yes, it can, if we throw the anti INdia forces out of power.

Ravindra Kalia
Professor, St Cloud State University, St Cloud, MN USA
Ravindra Kalia
Lucknow, India
May 25, 2006 12:00 AM
53
In USA many NRIs are taking advantage of Affirmative Action Program in education and business regardless of their station of birth or richness. I (Gujaraiti Muslim) and my partner (Assames Brahmin) own a consulting engineering company since 1984 and are fulfilling Affirmative Action Quota in Highway and Environmental Engineering field. There are many companies like us. Both of us had privileged upbringing and education in India and in USA. Why India can not devise a system where under privileged can get a helping hand and not a handout(Borrowed from UF slogan)? There is nothing wrong in devising a system which tries to right or make up for past wrongs of the society.

J. Malek
Woburn, MA
M. Javid Malek
Medford, MA, USA
May 25, 2006 12:00 AM
52
The difference not mentioned in this rather one-sided article is that there are greater number of universities, and many of considerable repute, in the US as compared with India. Mandal II will of course, go through. No politician (even MMS), with even an ounce of self-preservation, can do otherwise. The unfortunate thing is that students, of all and any varieties, will be cramped into an existing number of available seats. A better thing would be the reform of the educational system and opening more universities. Similarly, with respect to diversity in the job force, are the number of jobs created in India the same as those in the US? Inspite of diversity and so on and so forth, prejudice and discrimination is still practised in the American workfield, albeit in a more subtle manner. This sudden comparision between the countries is surprising, and really should have been better researched. Whatever the future of AA is, heaven knows. I studied at UM and am very aware of the expectations the university has, of its students, with respect to academic performance. Very recently, The University of Michigan was dragged to the US Supreme Court, over its admissions policies. There is no guarantee that AA will not come up for review by the Justices of the Supreme Court again. Given the recent re-configuration of the Justices, by President Bush and the Republicans, this "new" court is more conservative, than liberal. Finally, why doesn't this article make mention of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas and of his contempt for AA. Justice Thomas does happen to be African-American, last I checked.
Raveesh Varma
Grand Rapids, MI, USA
May 25, 2006 12:00 AM
51
Look at the cunning ways of this magazine. It hates anything American but suddenly it finds virtue in America's affirmative actions. Why don't they do the same comparison and ask for treating mullahs in this country the same way Americans do. Why don't we go to war with Porkistan the same way Americans did against Afghanistan. Atleast we got better reason than them to destroy Porkistan. But no, Outlook wants us to suck Pakis all the time in the name of peace process. One cannot pick and choose they want from American system and say that it best for India too if it best for Americans. If that is the case, let's copy the Americans in every aspect, be it the war on terror or economic liberalization. Let's go to war then and stop this bloodshed against Hindus in J&K by Porkistan. How about that?
Indian Secularist
Chicago, United States
May 25, 2006 12:00 AM
50
Merit was never sacrifised here in USA. This article is just misleading. Do you know how many seats and what kind of infrastructure is available here in USA? Where is the comparison? Do you know the background of Mrs. Rice? Do you know Mrs. Rice & Collin Powell opposes affirmative action now?
Indian Secularist
Chicago, United States
May 25, 2006 12:00 AM
49
AA has helped the blacks, oh someone needs to wake up and smell the inner cities.

Ajay
Troy, usa
May 25, 2006 12:00 AM
48
That was a very good article. But I am afraid not many would be willing to read through and accept the truth.

It is sickening that most of the media is is so biased they give undue exposure to the few thousand elite anti-reservationists while rest of the One billion population see advantages for the overall society.

How many more generations can these elite cheat the majority and deny them the education.

These elite claim to be the sole possessors of knowledge and merit and think that the rest are worth nothing.

Merit measured in the name of examination is not a measure of knowledge.

If this merit was to have been true, then all the students who had taken the highest scores would have been the only best performers in their respective fields. But this had never been the case.

Dear Anti-reservationsits - do not heat yourself so much. Instead get prepared to change your mindsets and face realities. You cannot be cheating the society for longer than 3000 years.
Ilango
Zurich, Switzerland
May 25, 2006 12:00 AM
47
I pretty much feel the same way on this topic as Arun.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 25, 2006 12:00 AM
46
Unjust societies will get unjust solutions. Who the solution is unjust for might keep changing? And I guess to our extreme discomfort it is changing.

For better solutions first and foremost we must accept that we are a highly unjust society (in fact the concept of equality doesn't even exist as a dimesion in the construct of our society - rather inequality is so codified and deep rooted starting with religion and our racial memory that other forms of discrimination practised elsewhere were probably amateurish (child's play) and hence it changed for the better in many places, including South Africa, but continues to eat into us). And then take it head on as a society to change the real thing not symptoms.

I rarely read acknowledgement of it - I have read/heard rationalization/justification galore and brushing it under the carpet (ignoring it - a common theme in our culture hoping if you close your eyes long enough it will disappear)
1. Varna was not intended to be what it became. As if theory matters - it's the practise/implementation of theory that matters.
2. Why should we pay for the sins of our forefather - I don't practice caste or discrimination (oh I have many friends), etc. etc. The issue in not just a individual it is structural and institutionalized and has played some role in giving a leg up across generations. My other answer is that given such a belief in re-incarnation you just might have been your forefather and so payback time in a later life.
3. The solution perpectuates caste - sure it does and that is why it is bad. But who is to blame and who should drive the real fix not status quo, politician driven fixes, committee investigations and analysis/paralysis.

I liked the posters "Youth for Equality" - I hope they really mean it and first realize, accept and acknowledge that discrimination and injustice is a very rampant, insidious fact in our society and caste is one of the major elements in it (might be more covert or polished with a veneer of sophistication now-a-days). Just that would be a great movement forward and nothing like it if then we do something to fix the real problem. So I hope the fight is to win the war whether or not the current battle is lost (likely) or won.

Having vented .... do I think any long term change will emerge? History wouldn't suggest it but hope just this once we can defeat history.

Quotas or the lack of it is a blip and distraction in all this as far as I am concerned, if we realize the real war is to be fought and some battles will be won and lost with no lasting consequence on the war.

Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
May 25, 2006 12:00 AM
45
AA in US is like a token gesture from different education, business and cultural (Oscar Awards) segments. It is not compulsory as against Reservations in India. More important reason is AA in US does not shift the over all social balance against White majority because their votes count. In India situation is different where minority Hindu FCs are discriminated by majority SC/ST/OBC/Christians/Muslims etc…Because they form vote banks and they have voting power. Even if UPA government comes up with 100% reservation and shows its middle-finger to FC, nothing can be done.
Ram
Kerela, India
May 25, 2006 12:00 AM
44
The difference between American affirmative action & Indian reservation policy can be defined in a single word “Political-opportunism”. All actions undertaken by the American authorities have got a noble motive to elevate people from various races with their potential in order to make a stronger nation. Here in India the reservation policy used to strengthen the poll prospects of political parties only no matter whether it helps the nation or not.

Mr.Fatimi in a TV discussion argued that because the OBCs, SCs & STs together all comprises 52% of population; hence they got a constitutional right to have reservation up to 50%. This ridiculous & irresponsible statement may increase his vote bank but absolutely harm full for the country’s interest. You can not force the rest 48% (as per his data) population to a second class status.

Some claims that reservation is a constitutional obligation. Are they right? What we understood that Constitution has got a noble spirit to elevate the oppressed communities through various affirmative actions in order to provide them a level playing platform so that they can compete with the main stream people. Reservation in jobs & political berths is one of those affirmative actions implemented temporarily. For this implementation, Gandhiji worked very hard to convince the General public.

Unfortunately after 59 years the reservation instead of being an effective affirmative action in helping the backward classes, it became the political handy play thing. It is good that the debate is very intense on different affirmative actions including reservation, but the political opportunistic view or steps can not be tolerated any more.

The present quota offers in higher education is really unfortunate & only help the creamy layer of the society. This is sad that the medicos are projected by most of caste based politicians as anti reservist. In fact they are screaming in TV interviews that they are not anti reservist at all but demand for end of this quota at highest level. They have very valid point. For example in MBBS course through quota people students from backward classes entered, completed the course & became a Doctor. Now at this stage the Doctor is not only a level playing platform with a general class Doctor but also has an upper hand of getting a government job through quota. Now if this doctor again given a quota for doing PG courses, is it not a discrimination to the general category doctor? The students demand is this where pro reservist characters are confusing the whole issue.

It is good to elevate the down trodden people but not at the cost of discriminating any community because of general class. No political party is coming to help the medicos with a fear of losing Vote banks. They should realize once this 48% general class united to make a strong vote bank the political parties will be no where.

Personally I believe the Affirmative Actions as followed in America should be implemented in our country in letters & spirit with only motive to make our country a stronger nation elevating the sizable oppressive communities in real sense not politically motivated actions or vested interest oriented plans.

Biranchi Narayan Acharya.
Cuttack, India
May 25, 2006 12:00 AM
43
The anti-reservation row is being played out by the elite, fair-skinned, English-speaking, urbane medicos and the like, and both the visual and print media, largely sharing similar values with the protesters dish out their opinions with hardly discussing the alternatives. White-coated docs sweeping the floors make for a good visual, but the underlying tragic message - docs be docs, and sweepers be sweepers - is casteist to the core. If the English media bared its strong spine in the Jessica Lall case then and chose to put the anti-reservation protesters in the limelight now, it's time we ask ourselves: Are we having an informed debate? Kudos to Outlook, for its fair appraisal of the issue.
j joseph israel
Tirunelveli, India
May 25, 2006 12:00 AM
42
I will just say one thing that the author has blatantly ignored about affirmative action. It is for "minorities", and that too a very small percentage. Atleast 25% of US population consists of minorities, but that doesn't mean that american companies and schools have a 25% "reservation" for blacks, hispanics, and asians. I don't think they use more than 10% seats for that purpose.

In contrast, Indian govt. is striving for 50% reservation and that is not "minority". Infact, some states like TamilNadu have 70% reservation! Now, who's the minority here?

Also consider the fact that it is much harder to get admissions and jobs in India as compared to America. US job market has seen some bad time for last 3-4 years, and there is already so much backlash against foreign workers. The lesson is, when there is plenty for everyone, nobody cares who is getting what, but in a poor and crowded country like India, a student will not take it easy when despite all his efforts, he could not get a college seat because someone with probably zero marks in entrance exam will get it using his last name.

So, dear Mr. Sen, you can try to mix apples with oranges just to prove your bias, but most readers are not stupid like you.

kunal
denver, usa
May 25, 2006 12:00 AM
41
Reservation based on Quota is not Affirmative action. It is simplication to think that there are same and cannot be compared. In affirmative action they provide certain points looking at your background which provides you advantage (economic criteria being one, i.e rich African American would not get it) but no blank check that if you belong to certain caste you get the seat.
Pravin
Midnapore, India
May 25, 2006 12:00 AM
40
I want to put my money where my mouth is. Yes, I want to lend financial support to my principled fellow citizens of India - the doctors and others who are agitating against the proposed reservation. Recently, I read the story that there are many volunteers and also support from the intelligensia, but not enough money to turn up the heat a notch. I call upon all the concerned citizens opposing this govt. action to contribute to the cause and prevent India from sliding into an abyss. We owe it to the next generation of ALL Indians.
If anybody knows of a legitimate organization helping manage the agitation, please put it out in the media. If no such organization exists, it is time the agitating doctors at AIIMS take charge and lead the way. The youth of India showed the way in the aftermath of the tsunami....this is another tsunami whose destructive effects will be obvious a few decades in the future. I and countless others are standing by to help you in any way we can.
Let's make India a better nation, not a nation of "reservation".
Jai Hind!
Deepak Sharma
Philadelphia, USA
May 25, 2006 12:00 AM
39
Such compelling evidence of the overwhelming ignorance and illogical comparison!!
Would you, Mr. Sen, get yourself operated on by a doctor who became one just because he/she was a SC/ST/BC/(add your acronym here)? I guess not. Why then should we allow ANY undeserving (not because of caste/race, but merit) person to be rewarded? These politican low lifes thrive on such dirty politics in India.
Let us thwart their ulterior motives.
Deepak Sharma
Philadelphia, USA
May 25, 2006 12:00 AM
38
Voluntary affirmative action can work if the generally accepted guiding morality of a given society is based on humanism. If the general public believes in the intrinsic value and basic human dignity of each and every human being, there is no need of legislation of affirmative action. It will be voluntary as is the case in US. A section of India seems far removed from such guiding principle.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 25, 2006 12:00 AM
37
I am appalled by the ignorance of outlook writers and editors who edit these articles.

Affirmitive action is prevelant in America but not to the tune of 50 % or 70% !

Affimitive action is at the most limited to less than 10% of the student population.

Please understand statistics before you write such articles.
Nikhil
cleveland, USA
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM
36
Bajjanbhai - "Why not solve your reservation problem by marrying your children to Dalis and Tribals? "

To start with I don't have a reservation problem as you put it.

As usual you are unable to understand simple English. Read my earlier post again. I have never said I am against reservation.

And sorry to disappoint you again..My girlfriend whom I intend to marry was born a Catholic but is an atheist right now..and we will surely bring our kids to watch you and the wildlife in Jinja , Uganda if and when we have them.

And I think it is too premature to talk about whom they are going to marry..and I am sure they will have enough grey matter to take their own decisions at the right time..

Thx for the advice anyway.
shankar
Mumbai, India
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM
35
Bad analysis. The top in US are there because of their merit and not AA.Please look at DOL stats for income levels based on ethinicity and their percentage increase over a period of time with respect to population .US universities have enough capacity for the students from world .How about the ones in India? Bottom line .. reservations divide Indian society and drag everyone down! Good for China :)
Outlook Reader
Orlando, United States
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM
34
First of all why we compare with USA? Are we equal to USA any way? Half of our population is not even earning a single dollar in a day. India is simply a country of garbage and full of increasing human heads everywhere, a worst corrupt administration in the world, people without any ethics, any body can get away with law, highly superstitious, lethargic, crooked and boastful people, due to destiny we are born here, what great we have in India except the highest Philosophy and Yoga? We have democracy only for name sake, actually Indians are not worth for democracy. Now read what Sam Pitroda said about Quota:
“The government should review its reservation policy taking into account the needs of the present century. “I think we need to review all of these issues in totality when we are looking at knowledge base for the 21st century. We can’t go back to what it was. We have to think about what it ought to be tomorrow.”
Our Indian Government has been extremely thoughtless and unjust in its decision. Does anybody see the fallouts of having a caste-based reservation system? Do you fathom the number of drop-outs? They weren't good enough to get in on their own merit, will they be able to keep up? Who takes the responsibility for the empty seats after an OBC candidate drops out because he wasn't good enough to get in, in the first place? Who takes the responsibility for the inferior quality of graduates from premier institutions? Who takes the responsibility for the losses the nation suffers when we place our trust in inferior graduates? And who takes responsibility for the distressed student who didn't make it to these schools because a backward class student with lesser marks took his seat? Mr. Arjun Singh, will you be around when we so want to kick your ass?
The problem is that the fruits of this policy never reach the section of the society that really needs it. It is always enjoyed by the richer section of the reserved class which has the capability to earn bread on its own. The poorer class is always deprived of the yields of this policy and thus, its condition never changes. In fact, it always shifts from bad to worse. The reservation system is farce and is one of the biggest hypocritic acts we've been witnessing. It's only generated more hatred for the OBC’s and alienated them from the society even more. How can one even think of abolishing castes when most of the parties are caste based and their manifestos crow about uplifting the respective castes they represent?
george james
Virar, India
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM
33
==> Bajjanbhai,

You are right. Merit and competition are just myths created by the upper caste. I now recognize the same after reading your sensible arguments.

I think now our next target should be Olympics. We should ask the Olympics committee to set aside some reservation for Indians in the medal category. For you see US with hardly a fraction of our population takes home most of the medals whereas we inspite of being the most populous nation hardly get enough medals to justify our strength. In the name of Social justice we should ensure that the Olympic Committee recognize the fact and reserve certain medals for us.

Maybe we should ask Mr.Never too old to play politics Arjun Singh, Mr.I want to be PM even if I have to divide India into 50 countries Paswan, Ms Nasal voiced hypocrite Meira Kumar, Mr.my son my grandson my great grandson all need reservation Ramdoss and our great white hope the saint to bring in a legislation to that front.
Navdeep Hans
Delhi, India
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM
32
Unfortunately for those on either side of the debate, only one thing is certain - this will prove to be a farce. In the first place, very few policies and decisions by government are sensible and actually benefit people. The few policies that are sensible sound great on paper. They just manage to delude people that they stand to benefit, while benefiting only the party in power to make its term secure. The policies, the promises are just as good and true as any Nigeria scam e-mail. If you believe, you are in danger.

- Vijayender Ch
Bangalore
Vj
Hyderabad, India
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM
31
Shankar

Why not solve your reservation problem by marrying your children to Dalis and Tribals? Then they would be Dalit and thrrefore face no reservation hurdle. Simple !
Ramdas Bajjanbhai
Jinja, Uganda
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM
30
==> Shankar,
There is a big difference b/w 50% reservation and 22% reservation. We all recognize that SC/ST were the most marginalized in our society and they do require the help of reservation. An IIT professor pointed out that IIT and IIM provide special coaching to the 22% who get admitted through Quota to bring them to the level of the other students.

Unlike SC/ST, OBC's were never that marginalized. In fact since independence the OBC movement ensured that they are the most powerful section of the society today both politically and socially. They do not need quotas because comparitively they are as well off or as bad off as the FC's.

IIT's and IIM's have gained recognition because of their extremely competitive entrance exams and not because of their teaching per se. The teaching is as good or as bad as any other good institute in India. But it is the quality of the students who get through the extremely competitive exams that sets these institutes apart. By providing 50% reservation we will end up diluting the core strength of these institutions.
Navdeep Hans
Delhi, India
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM
29
Navdeep - " IIT's and IIM's are globally recognized centers of excellence. .."

I know ..I am joining IIT Chennai within next 2 years for my Ph. D and I have my masters in Engineering from I I Sc , bangalore..So I am not arguing with you on that ( and no, I do not belong to any quotas..I got my admission through sheer merit and hardwork.)

"By forcing these institutes to have 50% quota we are going to destroy the reputation of these institutes."

Reservations for SC / STs in IITs / IIMs is around for 30 years now. Has it destroyed brand IIT / IIM ? Why do you think adding OBCs will change the picture?

Besides , I was making a very limited point.. If quotas are bad , then all quotas are bad , including NRI quotas , where ever they are applicable and capitation fee is equally bad.
shankar
Mumbai, India
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM
28
==> Shankar,
There are no NRI quotas in IIT's or IIM's period. However IIT's and IIM's do have quota for SC/ST. IIT's and IIM's are globally recognized centers of excellence. Their admission process is the most fair and non discrimnatory. By forcing these institutes to have 50% quota we are going to destroy the reputation of these institutes.
Navdeep Hans
Delhi, India
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM
27
VJ - " 'merit' is the absolute criterion - as it indeed should be - why is there no voice against the NRI quota and the practice of capitation fees among institutes? "

You are absolutely right..It is disturbing to see people protesting against Quotas for OBCs remain silent on NRI quotas and capitation fees..

If reservation and quotas are bad , then all quotas should be banned.

And the argument thata NRI student brings diversity to the campus is too far fetched..He can also do the same by writing entrance exam like everyone else..
shankar
Mumbai, India
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM
26
==> Ramesh Raghuvanshi,
Ar u kidding. U actually want to sprout Manu Smriti to justify your cause? Which Century are u living in. Just because centuries ago some nut created something evil does not mean that we should all follow the same in reverse order now.

However if that may be, then let's correct all the wrongs perpetrated centuries ago by repeating the same in reverse order now. Which also means that we should bring in a law that treats Men as second class citizens over women. Men should be forced to commit Sati when their wives die. Widowers should be sectioned of in an ashram. We should have Devadasa's in the temples. Women should be allowed to have a gharwaala and a baharwala and so on. Because one thing that History tells us is that Women were the most discriminated against in the past and the only way the past sins can be neutralized is to ensure that men undergo the same now.

Game for it?
Navdeep Hans
Delhi, India
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM
25
>> "why is there no voice against the NRI quota"

I don't know if this misconception is deliberate or genuine, but lot of people supporting reservations in present form feel that those opposing them are opposed to all form of quota, and want merit to be the only determining factor. I personally favor limited reservation, but not caste based (Satish Deshpande and Yogendra Yadav have come up with an alternate model in Hindu. I think that is reasonably fair, though I would not give any weight to caste). I know many other people with similar views.

Coming to NRI quotas, I actually support it. It may seem incongrous, but it offers the following advantages
. Higher education is an expensive proposition. Charging high fee from some students allows a lower fee from the rest.
. The NRI students bring a different cultural background and outlook to their institutes. Proponents of diversity should welcome it. That is why, I feel it is better to have a few NRI students (and even foreign students) instead of other rich students, who may afford the high fee.
. At a time when India is trying to emulate the Chinese example of engaging the expatriates, having NRI students is a good measure.

Despite all this, the percentage of reservations should be small (the University/Institute should decide on the number). Also, one needs to determine if merit is being compromised, and if yes, how significantly. Given the large pool of expats, I don't think it should be significant. If it is, the universities has to evolve a process to fix it.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM
24
==> VJ
Yes NRI moneyed types do buy seats but in which colleges, not the IIM's and IIT's nut the Pvt colleges.
50% reservation is the pits. I have a feeling ISI must be bankrolling Sonia., Arjun, Paswan, Ramdoss, Meira Kumar and their likes. Because they are actually fulfilling ISI's dream of seeing a very divided uncompetitive nation.
Navdeep Hans
Delhi, India
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM
23
I'm neither for nor against the quota system. I'm just thinking out loud to understand the logic. Let's cut out the silly distinctions of caste and all - these are quoted for political advantages rather than to actually benefit any group. Let's consider the four basic categories, based on money and aptitude -

1.Has money, has aptitude - these chaps don't need any reservation, for they can make it to the course of their choice.
2.Has money, no aptitude - these chaps cannot make it to the course of their choice, but they can opt for the same course abroad, or in any institute that offers that course for money. These chaps also don't need reservations.
3.Has no money, has aptitude - these chaps can make it to the course of their choice, and scholarship schemes take care of their need for money. These chaps also don't need reservations.
4.Has no money, has no aptitude - these chaps can neither make it to the course of their choice nor can afford to pursue the course elsewhere. What should happen to these chaps?

If not by offering quotas, how else would one help their situation improve? One may suggest that primary education should be made more accessible to them instead of offering quotas at university level. Definitely not a bad idea, but the primary education scene is very appaling in our country. Besides, it would inflict prejudice among children, and this is unhealthy and undesirable.

So, is there a better solution than quota system?
Vj
Hyderabad, India
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM
22
Colleges don't just consider grades for admission, ...... They look for "interesting students. " anation where the students prsonal inetersts and motivation to study is the main criterion for admission, it is no wonder that aa has yeilded tremendous results . contrat this with india! whcih indian university looks beyond the marks and the entrance result? the entire education system relies heavily on the marks obtained in exams ,. not on how much of the subject actually has been grasped by the student,. no wonder then that all we can do about equalising opportunities for all is introducing more and more reservations. aa system in india will never work till we modify and restructure the very basics of our archiac education system. till then all that the future students cam hope for is a day where 99% seats willbe reserved and the rest colleges will have seats tripple theri actual capacity. sad day foe india indeed.
ameetbhuvan
bhubaneswar, India
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM
21
If 'merit' is the absolute criterion - as it indeed should be - why is there no voice against the NRI quota and the practice of capitation fees among institutes? If the point against the quota system is that certain groups are exploiting their being economically backward to 'accept' the qualifications, the NRI quota chaps are also exploiting their being economically sound to 'buy' the qualifications. How does one justify this? Why is there no voice against the same?
Vj
Hyderabad, India
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM
20
Affirmative action is different from "Forced Action" (or quota, in other words). There are several problems in the way India has looked at quotas -

(1) It is purely a political game, meant to suit sulking politicians like Arjun Singh, who keep dreaming about becoming PM. Everytime, a politician gets ambitious, he talks about quotas.

(2) There is no way to segregate those people from "backward castes" who are well-off or who have already enjoyed enough of quotas. I have seen cases where sons and daughters of high ranking govt officials and netas have opted for reservation inspite of getting good education and high-class upbringing. They didn't even need quotas.

(3) SC/ST/OBCs are not the MORONS that govt thinks them to be. Give them good primary education and they won't even need quotas. Unfortunately, politicians in India want them to be inferior to Upper Castes by not giving them a chance to compete at college or jobs.

(4) There is no end to it. As some states like Tamil Nadu have shown, there is no end to quota raj. For politicians, it is just another game to beat their opponents in Vote-bank Politics.

In US, affirmative action is limited to those who have "prospect". For that, they pick up the bset talent available amongst the blacks and other minority groups. It is not a "free lunch" system like India that is available for everyone except the ones who deserve it.
skdonweb
Bangalore, India
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM
19
Old Mac, please die. India is finished. I am off to East Europe for my next project!
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM
18
Dr. Rice also stated that when she was little, her parents told her that she had to be twice as good, because she was black. She worked hard and made it. Making her the the mascot of AA isnt quite accurate.
shapra
Santa Clara, USA
May 23, 2006 12:00 AM
17
“It is like handing over ‘CRUTCHES’ to a Physically Impaired when he can be treated just by administering genuine ‘PHYSIOTHEREPY’.”
Rajneesh Batra
New Delhi, India
May 23, 2006 12:00 AM
16
VJ writes:

>>While offering reservations for certain communities is a commendable idea, there's a danger that it'll encourage the students of those communities to be complacent and underperform if the quotas are offered unconditionally.

That would be the case if there are 11 slots for every 10 candidates. Then the 10 would become complacent since they are assured of a slot. But, here on earth, smart people will always outnumber slots 10 to 1. Quotas may get you past privileged ones but they won’t get you past hungrier, more dedicated and more talented unprivileged ones.

>>This is precisely why quotas proved ineffective as regards improving the condition of certain groups, in spite of their having been for decades.

The ossified attitudes of privileged castes, which have yet to reconcile themselves with the whole idea of equality, means the medicinal value of such policies gets degraded in effect; usually by their ideological soul mates, who implement such policies. Thus the medicine needs to be administered for a longer period than necessary.

>>As it stands, it is adopted with absurd logic - the candidates from the quota category are offered seats in courses and promotions in jobs regardless of their performance. This practice beats the purpose. The criteria for them should only be relaxed, not altogether overlooked. Every course should be rated for average and minimum aptitudes, and the qualifying scores for quota groups should be relaxed to match their average aptitudes, and this should not fall below the minimum aptitude needed for the course.

Are you implying that is the case? Academics are only one component of a successful physician or professional. Life’s experiences, overcoming challenges and tremendous odds showing strength of character, persistence and work ethic presents a more complete picture.

>>The objective should not be to offer opportunities unconditionally, but to motivate them to be competitive.

The whole exercise would be unnecessary if the competition weren’t rigged at the outset.

>>Else, if this is implemented just for political advantages, it will prove to be a farce.

Or it fails to be implemented just to maintain advantages of a few, it will prove to be a bigger farce.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
May 23, 2006 12:00 AM
15
Kiran writes:

>>The affirmative action in USA has produced at best mixed results. The percentage of illegitimate children among blacks increased to a staggering 71%. No dout it created certain islands of black prosperity but a large portion of blacks are living in ghettos.

If you attribute the high rate of illegitimacy of blacks to affirmative action, then I wonder about your ability to reason. First, illegitimacy among whites is not too far behind, I believe more than 50%. Thus, a cultural shift/degradation rather than affirmative action policies explain it better. Second, during slavery, black family relationships were necessarily tentative and contingent since individual members were sold off at will. As a result, black illegitimacy also has historical roots.

It was this aspect of family break up in Harriet Beecher Stowe’s novel, “Uncle Tom’s Cabin” along with the Second Great Awakening of protestant morality that emphasized man’s responsibility for his fellow man that shocked conscience and triggered the U.S. Civil War to outlaw slavery. There’s an eerie resemblance between arguments of racists and those made by privileged castes now.

Try not to overstate your argument. You will find me in agreement that in the fifth or sixth order of reasoning, affirmative actions are probably unfair in the abstract. However, that’s not the end but only the beginning; the beginning of grappling with the larger structural injustice of our society. There is nothing abstract about that.

>>Reservations tend to benefit certain elites amont the communities targetted. If one considers the costs involved in terms of oppurtunities lost to other candidates it may not be such a good deal after all

I agree reservations tend to benefit those who are motivated and invest in education even among the unprivileged castes. So what? Requiring every underprivileged caste member to become a doctor before a policy is deemed a success is a trick to undermine it with ridiculous goals. The idea is that if elite professions were to reflect the country’s diversity, then distinct, self-identifying groups that have controlled such elite professions do not behave as a cartel to keep out non-members.

In the end, the necessity to make these dreadful and blunt choices is thrust upon the country by the institutionalized discrimination of its privileged castes throughout history; a legacy that still remains with us.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
May 22, 2006 12:00 AM
14
While offering reservations for certain communities is a commendable idea, there's a danger that it'll encourage the students of those communities to be complacent and underperform if the quotas are offered unconditionally. This is precisely why quotas proved ineffective as regards improving the condition of certain groups, in spite of their having been for decades. As it stands, it is adopted with absurd logic - the candidates from the quota category are offered seats in courses and promotions in jobs regardless of their performance. This practice beats the purpose. The criteria for them should only be relaxed, not altogether overlooked. Every course should be rated for average and minimum aptitudes, and the qualifying scores for quota groups should be relaxed to match their average aptitudes, and this should not fall below the minimum aptitude needed for the course. The objective should not be to offer opportunities unconditionally, but to motivate them to be competitive. Else, if this is implemented just for political advantages, it will prove to be a farce.

- Vijayender Ch
Bangalore
Vj
Hyderabad, India
May 22, 2006 12:00 AM
13
It is ludicrous to say the least to even suggest that the United States has bridged the gap between the affluent and the poor. Income inequality is the highest in the US amongst all developed countries.

Affirmative action certainly has merits. Without some fiat reservation, certain jobs tend to become confined to certain communities. That is exactly what the caste system tried to do and what India should try to destroy.

However, we should remember that the US is an economic superpower. We are a poor country. All developing countries need to ensure that their brightest and most talented are given adequate incentive to succeed in professional life. The latest economic revolution in India owes largely to the "can do" attitude of India's youth. Excessive reservations will make them feel unwanted and bitter. Mindless reservation will start yet another brain drain to the developed world. And this time, the exodus will start after high school, instead of after Bachelors.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
May 22, 2006 12:00 AM
12
The affirmative action in USA has produced at best mixed results. The percentage of illegitimate children among blacks increased to a staggering 71%. No dout it created certain islands of black prosperity but a large portion of blacks are living in ghettos.

Reservations tend to benefit certain elites amont the communities targetted. If one considers the costs involved in terms of oppurtunities lost to other candidates it may not be such a good deal after all
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
May 22, 2006 12:00 AM
11
there should not be any reservations at all.
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
May 22, 2006 12:00 AM
10
The current debate is not about whether there should be reservation, but how much reservation should there be. 50% is simply ridiculous. The primary task of any educational institution is to maintain high academic standards, and diversity is an important secondary goal. When you have 50% reservation, you are denying most of the deserving candidates opportunity. Yes we should have reservations, but 50% is preposterous.
Bhaskar Mitra
Ann Arbor, USA
May 21, 2006 12:00 AM
9
From Ghulams link...
http://tinyurl.com/l6qra


"If your child comes to this school, we will guarantee that we will get your child into college. We will be with you with your child from the moment they enter our school till the moment they graduate from college," Canada vowed during a speech.

That is it. Canada is saying the same thing anti reservation people are telling and not quite the AA symbolism nonsense that has started. Provide facilities. Enlighten them. Make them capable to compete. But these require guts and efforts. The thugs and goondas of Congress dont have the calibre to execute that. All sloganeering. All Symbolism. All Gas. No substance. Thats congress, Arundhadhi and outlook is all about. All Gas. All shit.

BJP made India great. Congress Killed India. Longlive Congress??????
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
May 21, 2006 12:00 AM
8
there is difference between affirmative actions and reservations....And that is the point. Sitting on board of selections, I have tried endlesslessly to get SC/ ST guys into the company. Some of these are CS grads from prestigious institutes. Unfortunately they do not learn enough even to the level of a BCOM....poor family chaps. The affirmative actions would be my intention to take them. Reservations would be my compulsion to take them.

And why should I trust these Arjun Singh the bastards more than I trus Azim Premzi on the intentions?

India is Dead...Longlive Congress?????
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
May 20, 2006 12:00 AM
7
The Affirmative Action program can be called a hugely successful program in spite of the fact that it created bitterness in some deserving white applicants who were denied admission in order to accommodate minorities. The program helped both the blacks and the women. The basic premise was that universities were commited to promoting diversity in their student bodies, and that they should go a step further than avoiding discrimination, and actively seek to include minorities in their admissions. Merit however remained the criterion for selection of the majority of students.

While universities have a responsibility to promote diversity and to help disadvantaged applicants, they cannot be the main instruments of social engineering. Greater emphasis has to be placed on providing quality kindergarten, primary school and high school education, better maternity care, health care, nutrition and in helping parents to be better motivators. The Harlem Childrens Zone Program run by Geoffrey Canada is an impressive program of this kind, and although it does require huge funds, it offer some pointers that one can heed. Here is a brief introduction to that program :


http://tinyurl.com/l6qra
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 20, 2006 12:00 AM
6
This may sound objectionable to some.

I suggest that Arjun Singh and all who are promoteing reservation over merit, should promise
to be treated by the doctors who got educated
through the quota setup.

Why does V.P.Singh travell to England. He does not even trust the best Indian doctors. Or is the purpose to hold a holiday in England, payed for by the poorest of the poor.

Politicians in Bihar, Assam and UP should get treatment in their own hospitals. Why do they come to Delhi. Is this not because they want to be treated by the best high caste doctors.

These arguments can be extended to other sectors also.

Rewarding merit will help India. The entire soft ware sector has been built by super meritorious
people. India is earning 25 billion USD per year
from the soft ware industries.

Its guys with merit who have built the mobile tlf
system, the nascent biotech industry. Many of the entrepeneurs have started these companies with pennies.

The OBC like Mulayam Singh and company have lots of help, but they dont do anythind, besides liveing on corruption. These people are admired by leftist journalists.


lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 20, 2006 12:00 AM
5
You are conveniently forgetting that Condoleeza is a "creamy layer" black born to affluent parents.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice


AA has hardly helped the Blacks (the recent hurricane Katrina is a testimony to that). This is exactly what we don’t need. The efforts should be made at the grassroots level favoring the most poor and most backward (where in my opinion the US has failed). This is only possible by providing good elementary education in the most backward areas and improving the rural economy. Hence, quotas in higher education are hardly a solution and undermine the quality of education while damaging the national psyche.
ashwin
Baton Rouge, USA
May 20, 2006 12:00 AM
4
The best would be to scrap the purchase of three
submarines from the French, and pay them to build a university like the Sorbonne.

Likewise scrap purchases of other expensive defence equipment and use them for better education, but probably under most competent people.

Keep Arjun budhu out of it. Maybe we should get Murty or Sam Pitroda to do the job.

Otherwise the bright ones Brother Bhajanbhai,
Old Chimp should be given a chance. They can not possibly be worse then Arjun
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 20, 2006 12:00 AM
3
BTW the flagbearer of Congress today is Christian fanatic Arundhati Roy for whom its OK for Kashmiries to launch (how disgusting) armed struggle; What more proof does one require about the mindset. India is dead. Longlive Congress????
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
May 20, 2006 12:00 AM
2
Statutary Backing

"it barred discrimination by employers and recipients of federal financial assistance, including colleges and universities. AA, under the Civil Rights Act, was a useful remedy to combat racial segregation but only ...."

Keyword ? Discrimination.

Its not affirmative action. Its reverse discrimination.

Its Majoritism, consisting of Backwords and muslims.

Its communal as its based on community. It assumes that all upper castes have commited crimes. No different from Muslim and European view that all jews are bad. And you know what. Hitler killed Jews. JEWS.

CONGRESS = === JEW KILLERS ==== HINDU KILLERS ====HITLER. Thats it.
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
May 20, 2006 12:00 AM
1
Affirmative Action = Reservation. ???????

Bastards...always there to distort...
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
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