AP
vadodara riots
On The Divider
For development, a pre-1947 dargah is razed. Modidom burns. Updates
"My heart is a thorn filled with longing for Gujarat...on earth there exists no balm for its wound. My heart split asunder by the dagger of separation."

—Vali Gujarati, Sufi saint/poet (1650-1707)

On February 28, '02, Vali Gujarati's tomb in Ahmedabad was razed to the ground by Hindu mobs. Overnight, it vanished and a road was paved on the spot where it once stood. On May 1, '06, the less significant and tiny Rashiduddin Chishti dargah on the Fatehpura-Champaner road in Vadodara was razed to the ground. Three bulldozers were used by the city municipal corporation to bring down a mere seven-foot structure. Riots broke out in Vadodara. Six people were killed, each death a grisly reminder of the 2002 riots. Hundreds were injured as the city burnt. Eventually, the Centre had to send the army to keep the mobs in check.

The question now is, why did local authorities indulge in such a blatantly provocative act, destroying a dargah that residents believe is 200 years old? True, it wasn't of great historical value; it was a typical roadside mazaar. Yet it was a religious structure of some vintage. Outlook has a copy of a 1912 city survey record on which the shrine is clearly marked. In the context of the Places of Worship (special provisions) Act passed by the Indian Parliament in 1991, it is illegal to demolish a shrine built before 1947. The act seeks to "prohibit the conversion of any place of worship and to provide for the maintenance of the religious character of any place of worship as it existed on the 15th of August, 1947".

The BJP-ruled municipal corporation claims it has been even-handed towards Hindus and Muslims. Mayor Sunil Solanki has said that a number of roadside temples were removed, so why not the dargah. Civic officials say four such temple encroachments were removed in the Tulsiwadi area of Vadodara on April 3, and a dargah and accompanying temple at Danteshwar on April 21. Again on April 28, two temple-like structures were demolished in Alkapuri and three on Productivity Road a day later.

Click here: A 1912 Vadodara city survey map showing the dargah marked in red

Then, on April 28, the municipal corporation issued a notice for the demolition of the Rashiduddin Chishti dargah. The residents were violently opposed, so negotiations began. According to advocate Moin Rafi, the community had agreed to reduce the width of the dargah. But even as negotiations were on, the structure was demolished and the city went up in flames.

The administration had meanwhile got a shot in the arm by a controversial ruling of the Gujarat HC. Taking note of a newspaper report, a two-judge bench directed all municipal corporations to demolish all illegal religious shrines encroaching on public spaces. Four days after the violence broke, the Supreme Court again had to overturn the decision of the Gujarat High Court. On May 4, on a plea made by the Centre, a two-judge bench stayed the state HC order.

Although roadside temples had been demolished, they were recent structures. The dargah was built pre-1947. Local residents say the demolition was nothing more than a show of strength by the VHP and local BJP. They had been putting pressure on the administration to pull down a "Muslim shrine" for all the roadside mandirs being destroyed. An eye for an eye. The more the Muslims argued that this was an old structure, the more determined were the VHP-BJP hardliners to destroy it.

Yusuf Sheikh is an active organiser and community leader in Vadodara. He believes the entire episode was pre-planned. "It's not necessary that Modi should give an order. The VHP-BJP have their little factions. They all want to show they are real men. So every now and then, it's useful to attack Muslim symbols." He says the VHP-Bajrang Dal cadre have now realised that they cannot really hurt the community by burning their shops because post-2002 many Muslim businessmen have insured their properties. "So very few shops were targeted. But small traders and those who work out of kiosks and stands were destroyed." Aren't the Muslims too scared to protest? "They get beaten when they are scared, so now they are just getting angry and feeling helpless," says Yusuf.

So was this a "power" statement by the BJP establishment? There is no evidence to show that chief minister Narendra Modi masterminded the episode. But political analysts say once violence erupted, he watched the situation for two days before finally taking action. There's also another theory doing the rounds. It is widely believed that Modi has been doing so well in every byelection and local election that he considers himself invincible right now and would like to prepone the assembly polls scheduled for November 2007. But once the Centre began making noises, Modi quickly realised that without a friendly government at the Centre, instead of polls he may be stuck with President's rule. So after two days of violence, he became the saviour, posing with Muslim victims in hospitals. He warned of stern action against all who took the law into their own hands. The violence ebbed.

Gagan Sethi of the Ahmedabad-based Centre for Social Justice explains the situation. He says the overt exclusion of Muslims continues in small and medium towns, including Vadodara. Any attempt at normalcy is frowned upon by the VHP cadres, now enmeshed in positions of power. "The problem here is that in a communal situation the police really do not know what it's supposed to do. They have to be told it's okay to try and impose a semblance of order. Once Modi decides the violence must stop, it does," says Sethi.

Meanwhile, a political point has been proven. Closer to the polls, more action can be expected in Modi's Gujarat. Sporadic communal flare-ups to keep the blood flowing. Meanwhile, the CM is now said to be in search of that one big emotive issue which enmeshes Hindu and Gujarati pride. No doubt he'll find one, he is a pastmaster at this game.



By R.K. Mishra and Saba Naqvi Bhaumik
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Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
May 06, 2006 12:00 AM
1
Most of us readers will not accept this article
as truthful. The reason being that Outlook is anti BJP, anti Hindu and promuslim.

Modi will win the next election hands down.
He does not need to do anything underhand.

However have the Outlook concluded that all progress in India should stop if it hurts the sentiments of muslims.

I believe that in Bengal the national highway is faceing a similar problem. There is a mosque
smack in the middle. Another absurdity is there is a muslim structure preventing the use of a runaway in the Calcutta airport.

Onething that baffles me. Hindus left Pakistan because of pressures from the peaceful muslim
neighbours whom they had lived with for 1000 years. How come that despite the violence and brutality no muslims are leaving Gujerat, for safer places. I would if I were in their shoes.

Lastly why can not muslims be more compromiseing.
Why do they have to make an issue of the smallest of things. Its a sure way of ensureing
conflicts.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 06, 2006 12:00 AM
2
Does the Kashmir killing of Hindus have a role in this episode?
Atul Chandra
mUMBAI, INDIA
May 06, 2006 12:00 AM
3
"Although roadside temples had been demolished, they were recent structures"

That logic is really absurd. So is it OK to demolish dargah's post 1947? Does a temple or a mosque has more sanctity when built pre 1947 but not in post 1947? Why is that post 1947 temples lack such sanctity?

And muslims who oppose the demolition on the grounds of religion really do go against the Prophet whom they say they follow. For the Prophet was against all kinds of shrines(save Kaaba). He expressly prohibited building a tomb over his body lest it should become a place of worship. And in Saudi Arabia, structures associated with the Prophet were razed down recently. So "religious" objection is not a valid one.

Houses, temples, mosques are all subject to demolition by the state provided adequate compensation is provided. This has been confirmed by the courts many times. The recent controversy is yet another attempt to rake up anti-Modi feelings. He is the favourite whip boy and anything he does or does not do will be used against him.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
May 06, 2006 12:00 AM
4
Bodepode

My friend you can not even wake up the hindu editor of this journal Mr Vinod Mehta. He hails from Pashawer, now a part of Pakistan.

Mr Mehta has gone on record to say that Mr Arrafat was the person he had admired most in his life. And I am sure the BJP are the party he hates most of all.

I dont think Outlook has much sympathy for your views.They are all loyal to your adverseries.

Have a good day in Chicago. Thats the place to be. I believe its a wonderful city.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 06, 2006 12:00 AM
5
A law and order problem, turned communal by the self interests, gets widespread coverage. Outlook decides to pepper the story with conspiracy theories to whip up more sentiments.

The carnage in Kashmir is reduced to a footnote.

Telling reminder of the way Outlook operates.
Ankan Kumar
Columbus, USA
May 06, 2006 12:00 AM
6
The comments here just prove once more that most of them are blinded and cannot see in an impartial way.

There is a legislation of the parliament that was enacted around 1991 which said that any religious structure that existed before 1947 cannot be altered other than the sole exception of Babri Masjid which was a contentious issue. The legislation was passed and is a law.

So if you violate it you are doing an illegal activity. Now its another matter if for these PATRIOTS here violating the law of the country is nothing but speaking for a lawless authority is fine.

Your choice and it shows what type of patriotism you have.
Mirza Faisal
Houston, USA
May 06, 2006 12:00 AM
7
So it`s alright to demolish all Hindu shrine and Mandir but all the Muslim shrine kept just because it`s belong to minority is this not appeasement? this is the secular India
vijay
london, United Kingdom
May 06, 2006 12:00 AM
8
An Op-Ed in The Indian Express :


http://tinyurl.com/jy35e
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 06, 2006 12:00 AM
9
Bodepudi,

>> "Life-long Moslem friends from Pakistan are advising to be WAKEFUL & WATHCHFUL since Islam and ethnic cleansing go hand in hand"

Since you seem to be lying about everything else, why should we believe you on anything at all?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 06, 2006 12:00 AM
10
Mirza faisal - "Now its another matter if for these PATRIOTS here violating the law of the country.."

The demolitions in Vadodara were as per the directions of the Gujarat high court. So get your facts right.

If what you say is right, then Gujarat high court is not following the law of the land and is breaking the law.
shankar
Mumbai, India
May 07, 2006 12:00 AM
11
>> "The demolitions in Vadodara were as per the directions of the Gujarat high court. So get your facts right"

There was indeed a law passed by parliament sometime in the 90s, that says that the religious structures, as they existed on Aug 15, 1947 (apart from Babri Masjid/Ram temple, since that was sub-judice) should be maintained. This was done to prevent other similar issues like Gyanvapi mosque from escalating.

As with all hastily enacted laws, it has loopholes. As far as I understand, it lacks in details like what happens when such a structure encroaches on public land, or if it exists on a private property, and the person wants to demolish it, or convert it to a different structure (say, if the concerned person changes his/her religion).

At times like this, it is the job of the courts to interpret the law, and give its ruling. This is what the court seems to have done. If someone felt that the ruling was incorrect, and went against the law, they should have approached the courts seeking a reversal or a stay.

It is unfortunate that the Center has caved in to organized violence in search of minority votes. I am sure most people shall agree that such attitudes shall only divide the two communities further.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
May 07, 2006 12:00 AM
12
Al,
While I am not knowledgeable enough to comment, your post seems eminently fair.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 07, 2006 12:00 AM
13
The gujrat high court had given a go for the demolition. The Vadodra masterplan shows the dargah as encroahment which had to be removed.

The most important fact is that why did not the community people take a stay order and make municipal authorities listen to it. Stay order is very easy to get.

Finally why violence and rioting. People keep saying hindus should not retaliate. Hindus should not riot, when gujrat riots happened all fingers were pointed at hindus.

But when muslims riot. Root cause and grievances become the norm. Dargah was demolished and so that gives muslims the right to go and start killing and rioting.

Whether the dargah was illegal will be decided by the court and this is simply caving to organised crime, rioting and bullying nothing else explains it.

If you come and do something we will riot start killing people and intimidate you till you accept what i want.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
May 07, 2006 12:00 AM
14
Exactly. If you read the reports properly it was very clear that negotiations were going on. I am not trying to speak for the Muslims but trying to look at it as impartially I can. Was the violence correct? No. But then when you start tackling emotive issues through goons then you are creating a law and order problem.

The High court order was not for the Dargah but it was for removing any structure coming in general in a public area. When you are talking about a 300 year old structure then there is a huge possibility that the roads and the public places may have come up because of the Dargah and not the other way round.

Also there was one other dargah removed and the Muslim community worked with the authorities on that. You can check the news reports again properly on that. But this one was another case. The community actually sent a plea to central commissions not to go ahead with the demolition. But before any negotiation could be completed it was razed and a road built! I see it purely as a case of inviting law and order problem.
Mirza Faisal
Houston, USA
May 07, 2006 12:00 AM
15
Nice propaganda piece from one of veteran Islamic apologists Saba Naqvi Bhaumik who I recall usually writes on how to water down anti terrorist legislation & obstruct anti terrorusm measures under the guise of protecting Islam.Now Saba has discovered a Hindu consipiracy in Gujrat much as same time as Bin Laden discovered a a global Hindu American Jewish conspiracy...maybe Saba should be writing to Outlook Al Jazerra
psuedo-secularist
Sydney, Australia
May 07, 2006 12:00 AM
16
The road could have been split so that the old darga stands as part of the median, with under-ground access if required.
An old temple on the path of the East Coast Road in Chennai has been handled this way. History is 'His Story', God's will in action on the earth. We should not try rewriting it, but learn lessons from it. Islamic onslought on hinduism in India for over a millenium was painful, but it should be seen as divine punishment for illtreatment of dalits and women in the name of religion. ahimsaa eva hindu-dharmah; himsaam dooshayati iti hindoo; stree-himsaa kula-naaSinee; We have correcterd our civilizational mistakes, let us progress purposefully and peacefully, carrying all cultures along.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
May 07, 2006 12:00 AM
17
To my mind, the Divine behind all religions is a Singular Absolute, seen as NaraayaNa-ParameSwara, the pravritti/nivritti marga-adhipas as per Aadi-Sankara, the obverse and reverse of the same divine coin. God in Christianity = essential goodness = Siva = Zeus; yahvey in judaism = yoga-vedya = Siva as Dakshinaamoorthy;
Allah in Islam = hara = kaala-bhairava, the angry force released from Siva, at the time of self-immolation by Daakshaayini. But He has been resettled into the Absolute in peace and goodness. 'salaam aale gum' stands for 'sa-raamah haro-aham'. Moslems should pray to Allah only for removal of all evil from the world, not for suppression on non-moslems. Uniformity of Moslem Mankind Allover = UMMA, is NOT spiritually justified. Unity of Mankind Allover = UMA is what is required and will be brought about.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
May 07, 2006 12:00 AM
18
Bodepudi,

>> "As Salman Rushdie's Manifesto ... confirms Islam and ethnic cleansing are intertwined"

The Manifesto makes no mention whatsoever of "ethnic cleansing" Moreover it speaks of Islamism rather than of Islam. Islamism is a reactionary ideology. Islamism is to Islam what Hindutva is to Hinduism. You must stop lying about these matters.


http://tinyurl.com/erphn
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 07, 2006 12:00 AM
19
Biraj, your point about Hindutva's attempt to eradicate barriers between Hindus is good. You must however be aware of the suspicions about it among Muslims and Christians as creating barriers between Indians. In any case my point was that Rushdie et al's Manifesto was critical of Islamism, a reactionary ideology, rather than Islam.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 07, 2006 12:00 AM
20
Wow

What a story !!! When ever we feel that Outlook has touched the pinaccles of biased reporting, they only better their own record.

The story starts off: "On February 28, '02, Vali Gujarati's tomb in Ahmedabad was razed to the ground by Hindu mobs."

Then it says: "Riots broke out in Vadodara." And what was the religion of the mobs who started the riots? Why is Outlook, which so confidently identified the religion of the mobs in the 02 riots, so shy in naming the religion this time?

The story goes on to ask: "The question now is, why did local authorities indulge in such a blatantly provocative act, destroying a dargah that residents believe is 200 years old?"

So does indulgence in a "blatantly provocative act" justify rioting? Is that the logic that is being proposed here? Wasn't that the same logic that was trashed when the "action-reaction" theory proposed for 02 riots?

There was a court order for the demolition, wasn't there? So if the administration did not go ahead with the court order, wouldn't they have been guilty of "contempt of court"?

The story says:"Again on April 28, two temple-like structures were demolished in Alkapuri and three on Productivity Road a day later."

What exactly is a temple like structure? A structure can either be a temple or not. How can it be "temple-like"?


Yousuf Sheikh says "They all want to show they are real men. So every now and then, it's useful to attack Muslim symbols."

Since when did a "dargah" become a muslim symbol? Doesn't Islam explicitly prohibit the building a tomb for the dead (even the body of the king of Saudi Arabia - King Fahd - was buried in an unmarked grave). So what is this Muslim symbol that was attacked? Are the muslims saying that the dargah, a tomb, is a symbol of Islam? Or did they too, only want to show that "they were real men" when they started the riots?

"But once the Centre began making noises, Modi quickly realised that without a friendly government at the Centre, instead of polls he may be stuck with President's rule."

Trust me, the Center would not have had the guts to impose President's rule - it would have been to BJP and Modi's advantage if it did.

a) If they would have imposed President's rule, the courts would have struck it down.
b) people would have started asking questions - 32 Hindus were killed in cold blood in J & K, why wasn't President's rule imposed there? Are Hindu lives so expendable?
c) President's rule was not imposed in Assam when it burnt for days - why?

This piece does not make a single comment about the violence started by the muslim community, nor about the responsibility of the muslim leadership in ensuring that tempers are not raised.
Srinivas
Delhi, India
May 07, 2006 12:00 AM
21
The credits for this article was initially given to "R K Mishra" and "Saba Naqvi Bhowmik" together.
Today it is only showing "R K Mishra".

Did anybody notice?
What is the policy followed by Outlook?
Only Hindu writers should be bashing Hindus or what?
kk lol
cal, India
May 07, 2006 12:00 AM
22
Muslims say that ISLAM is a religion of peace.

CAN ANYBODY NAME ONE SINGLE PLACE IN THIS WHOLE WORLD WHERE MUSLIMS ARE LIVING PEACEFULLY WITH
NON MUSLIMS.
kk lol
cal, India
May 07, 2006 12:00 AM
23
If all this which has happened has something to do with elections then i am afraid that all may not be well before the next elections in UP even.
Romi Singh
Indore, India
May 07, 2006 12:00 AM
24
This time there is sufficient development to show that there was an undesirable thinking on the part of the Muslim Mob who inititated the riots.Earlier in one of my posts i had mentioned that "The godhra incident was bad but Gujarat was worse.Godhra was done by the trained ones and those who do not have their own minds and souls and who are just falsely motivated by the masterminds whether here or abroad but Gujarat was done by a majority of people who were learned enough and sensible enough said to be followers of a particular religion.Godhra was done by a handful of persons
and no one can imagine the plight of family members of those who lost their lives in that incident".I added that "YOu cannot attribute the hatred act done in Godhra to be done by the followers of a particular religion as they do not fall in the purview of the definition of the world religion. But what about those who reacted ? Do they belonged to a particular religion".
The kashmir incident where the villagers were killed was done by the extremists and they cannot be said to be of any particular religion.
But here whatever happened can be easily said to be done by the Muslim Community.Well, the reason , whether justified or not , does not gives them the right to indulge in the riots.
If Post Godhra riots were initiated by Hindus then these are initiated by Muslims.
Where do we go from here and how do we go from here ?
There needs to be done something to prevent such situations else these situations can be exploited by those who do not want a peaceful environment in the Country.
A few more incidents and then there may be a complete polarisation accross the country.
Should we the authors and academicians be a party to these incidents or should we try to apply balms on the wounds of everybody.
Romi Singh
Indore, India
May 07, 2006 12:00 AM
25
So outlook has converted a even-handed demolition drive into communal frenzy act.. job well done but noone is impresed.. one look at that shrine's photo and it;s clear it;s bloody nothing structure and moreover state govt did gave them option to shift the shrine but no mor mullah brigade rules must be twisted..
Rahul
Delhi, India
May 07, 2006 12:00 AM
26
Bodepudi,

>> "Other than repeating what Osama- said & spreading the Al Queda message-having Islam take over India-you are not saying anything NEW"

This shows your scant respect for truth. I have said innumerable times that Osama is the worst enemy of the Muslims and that Al Qaeda's ideology is rejected by all Muslim leaders and clerics of note, and also by me, but you will of course keep on saying your lies because this forum is unmonitored, and you want to take full advantage of that fact to propagate your hate messages.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 08, 2006 12:00 AM
27
Bodepudi,

I am not sure that this space is meant for you to carry on a propaganda of hate and lies. Perhaps you should check with the editors of OUTLOOK about this.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 08, 2006 12:00 AM
28
Brother Bodepudi,

Fighting intolerance and terrorism is a noble goal and I support it whole-heartedly. This struggle will be long and difficult, it has to be fought intelligently, and it will not be helped by indiscriminate and thoughtless name-calling and imputations. However if you want to carry on your rabid rants, you should consider taking them to the FREE SPEECH area. You will do us all a favor by doing so.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 08, 2006 12:00 AM
29
Pre-1947 structurs were either built by Mossies or Sitans. Because they already demolished all Hindu structures that were in existence long before these Abrahamic $hit heads came into existence. Modi government must demolish all constructions irrespective of the back-lash. If you give in for Muslims then they will ask for separate state just like Kashmir.
Ram
Kerela, India
May 08, 2006 12:00 AM
30
So once again a favourite topic for the "SECULARISTS" heated debate and a campaign to demonise Modi and all the Hindus.You guys have made an industry out of Gujrat riots.All your comrades in arms against Modi has benifeted one way or other from this HulloBalloo against modi in particular and hindus in general.Nomatter what he does you clever bunch of "SECULAR ACTIVISTS" would distort facts,advance half truths with so much force that all others are silenced.Some activists will start writing long articles and these will be willingly published by leading Newspaper and debated by a certain 24x7 news channel.Both these so called "SECULAR,LIBERAL,PROGRESSIVE" media houses has vested interest,political,in keeping the pot boiling as this fact is not hidden from any body having little sense.However
this brigade is so active in advancing an agenda on the behalf of their political bosses(lady boss in fact),that they fail to have an understanding among them each one is here to out smart another.For instance this so called historic dargah is 100yrs. old or 200yrs. or as claimed by teesta stelwd 387 yrs. old,WHAT AN AMAZING ELASTICITY?Pray give us one figure.
What to say of other media barons?They simply have to toe their line lest they are branded "COMMUNAL".Who said about the objectivity of press,does any body remember.We are living in interesting time,things are happening at fast pace.I am as sure as death that a day will come,and soon,when we the people of India shall rise above all this propoganda and the hidden agenda of "SECULAR FUNDAMENTALIST",who in fact are so communal that they see every thing every action with a bias for muslims.I am afraid these "SECULARIST" are doing all they can to widen the gulf between two communities determintal to the entire populace.
Regards,
Anil Joshi,Rohini,Delhi.
Anil Joshi
Rohini,Delhi, India
May 08, 2006 12:00 AM
31
Dear Mr.Sriniwas,
I read your post and am glad to acknowledge your observations.THANKS.
Sri,as this debate is,and as I said,shall go on for as long as "SECULAR v/s COMMUNAL" divide is there.
As for vinod mehta i must confess that this guy has guts to let us rant and rave, possiblly to be seen as impartial perhaps,nevertheless give devil his due.
Vinod,be more objective and candid .In any case you are not going to be a Rajya Sabha Member come which party may come in power.
You'r Friend
Regards,
Anil Joshi,Rohini,Delhi.
Anil Joshi
Rohini,Delhi, India
May 08, 2006 12:00 AM
32
Moino Chamcha Vinodh is providing space because he knows that everyone is interested in debating over the issue rather than reading that article. With0ut R&R Outlook is nothing. As a business person he knows that by intimidating Hindus he can get more attraction.
Ram
Kerela, India
May 08, 2006 12:00 AM
33
Moino Chamcha Vinodh is providing space because he knows that everyone is interested in debating over the issue rather than reading that article. With0ut R&R Outlook is nothing. As a business person he knows that by intimidating Hindus he can get more attraction.
Ram
Kerela, India
May 08, 2006 12:00 AM
34
Osama still leads the popularity chart is umah world and this fact can;t be denied by some farooqi's denial..

Rahul
Delhi, India
May 08, 2006 12:00 AM
35
Dear Mr. Mishra,

The state is above any religious sentiments or feelings. Why didn't you raise a hue and cry when many mandirs were destroyed as a part of the current demolition drive ? The religous significane of any religious place does not decrease just because it is relatively new.

The citizens of the state have to accept that structures religious or not have to be destroyed for the sake of urban development.

Mr. Mishra, the Indian media and outlook in particular does a good job of being left-winged when it needs to be bipartisan.
Nikhil
cleveland, USA
May 08, 2006 12:00 AM
36
I lived in Kuwait for a long time near the airport. There was an old mosque near the main approach road. When the road needed widening due to increased the mosque was demolished overnight. A new mosque was built at state expense some distance away. That is the real solution to the demands of increasing population pressures. What is good for mosques is also good for temples and Gurudwaras. As things stand now, government land is dotted with religious structures which need not be there. To make it a political issue and whip up religious fervor is not productive at all.
Rajiv Sethi
Phoenix, United States
May 08, 2006 12:00 AM
37
Saudis have demolished prophet muhammaed's house for development purpose.. Mullah in India are becomeing holier than pope.......

Modi did give them options to relocate the dargah but they didn't accept it.

ANyway one look at that tiny structure it shouts worthless.. Mullah make ti matter of pride prestige everywhere.

three cheers to modi for not heeding to the apeesement tactics employed elsewhere.. if a temple can be demolished so can be dargah it's as simple as that
Rahul
Delhi, India
May 08, 2006 12:00 AM
38
Anand

I would be interested to know the source of your information on the temple demolition in Andhra.
Ramdas Bajjanbhai
Jinja, Uganda
May 08, 2006 12:00 AM
39
Bodepudi,

>> "there shall be fool-proof mechanisms for Islam staying numerically insignificant in India, now as well as in the distant future."

You have said this about fifty times already! How many times do you need to repeat it?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 09, 2006 12:00 AM
40
The riots killing the innocent Indians, just after the famous police comissioner pandey of Godhra riots taking over as DGP of Gujrat Police. Is this just a co-incidence or some strategic move by Narenda Modi.
Kaunain Shahidi
Buraydah, Saudi Arabia
May 09, 2006 12:00 AM
41
Biraj, thank you for giving the link to Mr Bandukwala's article, which I read last week in Milli Gazette. He is known in the community for advocating higher education for the Muslim youth, equal rights for women, removing medieval distortions of the sharia laws, and greater dialogue between Muslims and Hindus. Seeing all the unfortunate problems in his home city (Vadodara), he must at this time be a sad person indeed.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 09, 2006 12:00 AM
42
Hello Mr.Mishra ,

Your article on Rajesh Sheth, "A Titanic Train And A Prayer" was very inspiring! On one hand it exposes the inefficiency of the system we are living in and on the other hand a hope in the attitude of the people who are willing to take things on their own. However, your article on "On The Divider", seems to coloured with politics! When you have appreciated the brave efforts of "Rajesh Sheth" to rescue his kith and kin, you have not denounced the brutal killings that followed the demolition of the structures! So, what do you really believe in?

Regards ,
Prasad
Prasad
NRW, Germany
May 09, 2006 12:00 AM
43
The advice which Faruki is giveing to others, ie move to free speech is interesting.

How about Mr Faruki giveing an example and moveing to Free Speech. Meanwhile has he considered writeing in PaKistan Link, Dawn, Daily Times, Lahore. I am sure his liberal ideas will cause quite a stir there.

I once wrote in Pakistan Link, that I agreed with Mr Jinnah,s theory about Hindus and Muslims being two separate communities. This was one of the few times my comments was published. Most of the readers have obviously the same opinion.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 09, 2006 12:00 AM
44
Biraj K

The French want all immigrants to speak French, and have banned the hijab abd other relsigious symbols in school. Sarkosy the minister of the interior has said to them. If you dont like France, then you are free to leave.

In Germany new citizens will have to prove that they know a lot about Germany and its culture.

Whats wrong if India demands that all Indians should some degree of a common culture. Call it what you will.

I dont think it will help the cause of national unity, if people have special attitiudes, and
have a completely separate life style.

This will ensure that they will be marginalised,
and be at the botttom end of society. The jews
realised this, and have joined the mainstream
in every country where they live.

Whats more they are the citizens who contribute
a lot in every aspect of life. In USA they are
significant in music, film, fianiance. They are
at the top in acadamics, and in the intellectual life of their country.

From being third rate citizens, they are first rate citizens. Their loyalty to USA is unquestioned,

I think one can learn from this.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 09, 2006 12:00 AM
45
Bagai says, "How about Mr Faruki giveing an example and moveing to Free Speech. Meanwhile has he considered writeing in PaKistan Link, Dawn, Daily Times, Lahore."

I see that two more of Bagai's idiotic e-mails have been published in the latest issue of Milli Gazette. His e-mails go in a special corner of the Letters page reserved for kooks.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 09, 2006 12:00 AM
46
BIRAJK:

You correctly say that the Muslim problem has placed India in a "nightmarish situation". What do youthink of the idea of voluntary Hindu mass conversion to Islam to avoid endless violence in the near future?
Ramdas Bajjanbhai
Jinja, Uganda
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
47
Who exactly is R.K.Mishra. I am sure we would like to know his credentials. Mostl likely he is one of the many doubtful scribes who are in the service of the secular cause.

Whatever Outlook views many of us are fed up with this type of biased reporting. The doubt extends to the editor and owners.

Whats going on. What is the reason for this biased reporting.Does it sell the paper. Or is a sign of a deeper malady

Anyway the secular media will ensure the victory of Modi in the next election.

I think Outlook should write an account of the glaxay of muslim politicians, starting with Mehboob Ali, and Ansari from UP. This will make picqant reading.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
48
Faruki

You suggested that some of us move to free speech. And you are ofcource not willing to move yourself. Please remember for the moment that you in a Indian if not Hindu forum.

My letters have been published in Daily Times, Lahore and Pakistan Links. Thats when they find my views acceptable.

I got a letter from a muslim gentleman wrt my email in Milli Gazette. I will not give his name, for obvious reasons. Anyway he said my views were correct, and asked me to continue.
However I dont think I will. Its too much of an Islamic site, and for backward people on the whole. I suggest other readers should read this too, to get an idea of the intense hostility this paper has for India, and its obsession with muslim causes.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
49
Bagai,

>> "Please remember for the moment that you (are) in a Indian if not Hindu forum.

I know this is an Indian Forum, but are you sure it is a Hindu Forum?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
50
Brother Goolam

I suggest you read some of the comments about yourselves. I am sad that they tend to be disrespectful. However I suggest you keep writeing the way you do,We need a constant reminder how the otherside thinks.

If you are an example of a liberal, rational muslim, then we need to be prepared . In fact your argument make us feel that Hindus in India need politicians and leaders like Modi.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
51
Bagai says, "We need a constant reminder how the otherside thinks."

What we do not need is bigots like you giving a bad name to Hindus.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
52
Brothers Goolam and Bodepode

Brother Goolam writes that all muslim leaders and clergy have condemned Brother Ossama bin Laden. However none of the Brother Ayatollahs or Imams or mullahs have issued a Fatwa against him,
for breaking the muslim faith. They have done so in many occasions with lesser people.

Brother Salman Rushdie is still nervous about his future.

However this must be an over sight. Brother Goolam please look into this, and assure us that Brother Ossama is in for trouble soon. At the very least he should be denied some of the doe eyed virgins, and instead given some sharp American girls. Stringy and athletic members of the ,daughters of the revolution, would do fine.

Our faith in Islamic justice would be restored.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
53
Bagai,

>> "Brother Goolam please look into this, and assure us that Brother Ossama is in for trouble soon."

Your posts are becoming increasingly juvenile and unworthy of OUTLOOK readership. Take a break, and look after your health.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
54
Shankar

Muslims are always right in pursuit of their relgious quests.

Ofcource the High Court does not understand the Indian constitution, and how can one expects justice from some body like Modi.

Mirza Faisal may not know the Indian constitution either. But who cares. If the muslims decide , they are prepared to dismiss the constitution as in some cases before.

I wonder how muslims manage to survive in the USA
what with a rigid enforcement of laws, the FBI and the patriot act. Do muslims also write in US website about the evil American fanatics and muslim haters. Would appreciate info of such a link.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
55
Brother Goolam

Why do you not write in Pakistan Link and Dawn
Here is a chance to express your liberal thoughts to a muslim audience.We in the Outlook forum know your views quite well by now.

Never mind my idiotic comments in Milli Gazatte.
Incidentally I wonder what people think of them.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
56
Bagai asks, "Why do you not write in Pakistan Link and Dawn"

Even your questions are getting dumber. You need a rest.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
57
We have some muslims liveing in the USA, who are quite well known to all of us.

For a change may be we could discuss the situation of immigrants both muslims and nonmuslims in USA.

I understand from some that Americans are very tolerant of foreign cultures. But then there are some who have an opposite view.

I would imagine that muslims and all others should find the USA much to be preferred to India, with its numerous problems.

Muslims from India should find the USA an ideal society. Free from the anti muslim bias, the
enforced conformity of their faith, and a generous and relaxed life style.

I know that the younger generation of my family are fairly unconcerned with the problems of India
There is a need to visit family, especially parents. After the parents are gone I feel the young Indians will become Americans for all practical purposes.

They dress like Americans, speak like them , and
are more comfortable liveing there. Assimilation
for them means a brighter future for themselves and their kids. Hinduism will be retained to a small extent only, with a tiny Ganesh or Shiva
figure to remind them of their ancient culture.


Strange that this lesson is not realised by some in India. Instead we are stuck with the great devide. Every group wants to maintain its own thing, even though this means isolation from the main group, and reduced opportunities.

Do these groups have the same attitude liveing in the USA.ie emphasiseing their own separate and unique culture, and rejecting assimilation
into the American culture.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
58
Biraj,

>> "Unless liberal muslims rise up and take control of situation in Muslim world ..."

Your dire prediction is sensible, and forward looking Muslims are aware of it. Secular, democratic and liberal forces however have their imperatives in today's world. Considering the size of the community (1.3 billion in 50 countries), and the distance it has to travel, one can conceptualize changes only in historical terms. There will be both forward and backward movements. Hopefully most of the modernization will be evolutionary, but the process may be interspersed with some cataclysmic phases also. Those who resist change are the instruments of doom.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
59
Bagai, Biraj, Bodepudi and Bajjanbhai

I know that this is not going to change an iota of what you say and write and will continue with your vituperations and ramblings. I wont call it lie because you do not know neither you will ever desire to know the fallacy of your beliefs.

You will always find plenty of third rated sites to pile up on your extreme biases.

Regarding one of the points that Ghulam brought out regarding terrorism I just concentrated for a month about this allegation about there not being much said by Muslims against terrorism.

Here is what I found. That was in July of 2005

On July 18, 500 Imams of various British mosques issued a fatwa condemning the London bombings as well as any other such terrorist act. There was no mention of any root cause in that fatwa. It was a condemnation of the terror in the strongest words.

On July 28, the Fiqh Council of North America issued a fatwa condemning terrorist acts. It has been endorsed by 173 organisations throughout North America. There was no mention of any root cause in the text.

On July 6 in Amman, 170 leading Islamic scholars and Imams from the eight major schools of Islam (both Sunni and Shia) from 40 countries got together and issued a fatwa. The fatwa forbade issuance and validity of any fatwa from obscure clerics justifying any act. It was clearly aimed at terrorists who justify their acts by issuing fatwas particularly in Iraq. There was no mention of any root cause.

Around the same time the clerics from the major madrasas in Pakistan issued a fatwa against terrorism.

Just around the same time the leading organization in Spain issued a fatwa against Osama.

All these happenned very closely when I was finding out such news. But you have to listen hard to find them. Why? Because it not a good news to sell. Hence it is buried on some page or somewhere.

There are actually compendiums available with qoutes from every noted Islamic scholar condeming terrorism.

Terrorism is not an Islamic problem it is a geo-political problem. Those who do it try to rationalize it through religion to believe that they are doing something great.

If this understanding does not come (which sure is not coming to many in power) the things will continue to get worse.
Mirza Faisal
Houston, USA
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
60
Mirza Saheb, thanks for posting that information. As you said, it will not make the slightest difference to Bagai, Bodepudi or Ramdas.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
61
Biraj,

We have discussed this several times in recent months, so I do not want to repeat myself. An undivided India would have offered the best prospect for Muslim as well as Hindu moderates to prevail, but unfortunately that was not to be. Whether a Subcontinental Economic Community may some day become possible or not is difficult to say. Several people believe that the site of any major reform movement in Islam will be either the United States or India.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
62
>> "...which segment of Islamic society will bring the change?"

Clear cut labels, as we understand them, may not be useful in this regard. The best way to describe it would be to say forces which are opposed to extremism, literalism and intolerance, in other words moderate or liberal influences, such as those espoused by current American and Canadian authors, Indian workers such as Badukwala of Vadodara whose article you posted yesterday, and several political leaders (though they are not unopposed) in Malaysia, Turkey and Azerbaijan.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
63
Outlook,
Please stop pretending to be secular whilst remaining partial in reporting. The 'pseudo secularist' reports like these will only deepen the chasm between the communities not bridge them.
I would like to site an incident which left me wondering about the future of Indian journalism.
I was in Baroda after the riots had occurred. The manager of the hotel where I stayed said that a few reporters came to the town for reporting but did not venture out for fear of their own life. Still these people manage to file their reports (via phone or mail or fax) containing interviews of the riot victims etc. All these whilst sitting in the safe confines of their rooms. One reporter was always hitting the bottle, may be for courage or creativity. Honest and true reporting is dead. Sensationalism and greed has taken root amongst journos.
Seethi Haji
Malappuram, India
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
64
To Mr Vinod Mehta

I submit that Outlook has not only the right but also the duty to point out the flaws of the Hindu
right.

However its fair that now and then it uses its considerable talent to write about the unfairness
of the other side. It seems never to delve into the peculiar politics of the many muslims
politicians and leaders .

Many of us would like to know the background of the many journalists who are continually after
the Hindu rights. Please note that you are being
questioned by many Hindus who live abroad,and are accepted and respected abroad.

Daily Times, Lahore provides a more fair analysis of the ground situation then Outlook.

In my view you are just a bit more sophisticated
version of the Milli Gazette. And thats not meant as a compliment. No offense to Brother muslims , who I am sure recieve much inspiration from this paper.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
65
Brother Goolam writes that Mr Bandukwalla is at the forefront of the comeing enlightenment of the muslims in India. Mr Bandukwalla is now a retired gentleman, and it must be a struggle to
fight the muslim clergy and 99 $ of the faithful .

Regarding removeing the medieval distortions of
the Sharia laws, I thought that the laws framed
in the 7th century were medieval by themselves.

How can muslims live in western countries where the Sharia laws are particularly despised,
and they have to obey liberal secular constitutions. I am pretty certain that muslims
will not fight the US supreme court as they did the Indian Supreme Court in the Shah Bano case, or the right for talaks sent by Email or SMS.

It reminds me of Zacharia Mossaoiu, who shouted
abuses and insults against the USA on the way to his cell. Still convinced about the rightness
of his cause.

How can you debate or have a dialogue with people of that type, who are as stubborn, but try vainly to hide their ugly side under a false veneer of liberalism.

Gary Becker a noble laureate is reported to have said that terrorists come from a small number of countries, unfortunately many of the muslim faith. Read Daily Times, Lahore.

He has proposed limiteing immigration of these people, and increasing that from some other countries.

Dr Becker teaches economy at the University of Chicago.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
66
Bagai,

>> "I thought that the laws framed
in the 7th century were medieval by themselves"

Does this guy understand English at all? And he seems to start his anti-Muslim tirade as soon as he wakes up. If he does not want to go for professional help, he should at least get some rest.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
67
"
http://indianexpress.com/story/4107.html"


Varanasi blast ‘brain’ shot in J&K was UP madarsa teacher

Islam is the religion of Peace and muslims are the most peaceful.. So this is another conspiracy from Chaddis / Sanghis / BJPs / Modi / Americans / Israelis to defame Islam
shankar
Mumbai, India
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
68
BIRAJ

I don't understand why you are so confident of Hinduism's future. To me it seems obvious that it is doomed. In a couple of decades the North-East will be an extension of Bangladesh. The Hindus there will be killed off or driven out. In a few decades Muslims will be more than a third of the Indian population. Because Hindus are so divided, that is enough to control India politically. Politicians will have to make India a quasi-Islamic nation to suit the Muslims. Masses of Dalits and Tribals will already have left Hinduism for Christianity by then. Now large numbers will embrace Islam to have a quiet life. All this means - in 50 years or less, India and Hinduism will be KHATAM.
Ramdas Bajjanbhai
Jinja, Uganda
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
69

Biraj:

"Getting better"? You must be joking. Kerala as an RSS stronghold? That is crazy. I happen to know Kerala very well, having many Kerala relatives and having spent many years there. It is the state where Hindus are weakest. Not even one MP or State Assembly member !
Ramdas Bajjanbhai
Jinja, Uganda
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
70
Brother Goolam

Every one on this forum thinks you are a hypocrite, lier and totally brainwashed.

We could have a poll on what people think about you.

My opinion is that you are a boorish stupid and stubborn jehadi. When cornered you resort to abuse. Never answer awkward questions. Thats the normal strategy of muslims.

But its you who said that the sharia should be cleansed of its medieval distortions. The Sharia was framed in the 7 th century.

Is that medieval or modern.

Furthermore why dont you adress your brother muslims in the muslim media. They need to know your views. Why are you preaching to us, whom you dislike, and who dislike you.

Can this be made plainer. Or should we write in Arabic.

We dont need you here.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
71
Brother Goolam

Why in fact dont you write in the Pakistani or muslim press, advocating your so called liberal agenda.

Its not a dumb question.Its dumb for you to write in Outlook, consdering the abuse you get.

By the way its US which will settle the hash of people like Brother Goolam. Next time there is a major terror attack,, we will see Brother Goolam rushing for his burrow,

Same goes for Europe. They have stopped sweet talking to the muslims. Its more like 3 strikes and you are out. Thats a clear message, and better understood then the message being broadcast by the secularists in India. The more soft you get, the more trouble they will cause.

Now watch the number of terror incidents by Indian muslims in Delhi, Varanasi. Baroda, Aligarh, and ofcource in Kashmir.Thats mini Pakistan

These type of activities do not take place in the west, because they know that they will be sent to prison or deported.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
72
Brother Mirza Faisal.

What do American observers think of your views.

However my view is that USA and Europe are quite sceptical of any moderate movements comeing from muslims.

End Feb 2006 saw huge demonstrations wrt the cartoonists. Large number of muslims go on a rampage, and a few mumble about peace and moderation. Terrorism continues every day. Its
reported evry day, and happens every where.

Few people trust muslims, and this is the view of the vast majority of observers, One has to be\
stupid to ignore this.

People will trust muslims when a sea change occurs. Terrorism and hate campaigns stop.

I read US papers, and they are pretty anti muslim.Muslims in Pakistan Link, USA are always writeing about this too.

I think that you should continue this debate with other muslims or Americans. Few accept your views on this forum.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 10, 2006 12:00 AM
73
Biraj K

I delegate the job of answering Brother Goolam to you. I am sure you will do it well

On the whole our views are the same. However Brother Goolam is especially enraged with me,
for saying the same things as you do. You my friend have a talent of dealing with the faithful.

By the way muslim clergy in England, USA have issued fatwas against the terrorists. Just a friendly rap on the wrist, to impress the infidels. No muslims are bothered by them.

The real fatwas are the ones issued against Rushdie and now the Danish cartoonists. A 12
member group of Pakistani,s are planning to enter Denmark to kill the cartoonists. Has been
announced in European TV. They have the blessings of the Imams and Mullahs of Pakistan .

Keep this under your hat. We do not have to hurt Brother Goolam and Brother Faizal,s feelings. .The police here is on red alert.
The cartoonists and their families are shakeing with fear.

Islam is a peaceful religion.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 11, 2006 12:00 AM
74
Biraj K

You are liveing in an interesting area. Communists running the government. An explodeing population. Illegal immigration . However I believe muslims are no great problem in your marxist paradise.

On the whole from a western perspective most of India is doomed to poverty, conflicts and lack of political stability. Many states want out,
eg Assam, Nagaland, Kashmir.

Each problem is immense, and the combination mind boggling. However I believe Calcuttans are a never say die type.

Good luck.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 11, 2006 12:00 AM
75
Bagai,

>> "By the way its US which will settle the hash of people like Brother Goolam. Next time there is a major terror attack,, we will see Brother Goolam rushing for his burrow,"

Wishful thinking! Poor Bagai.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 11, 2006 12:00 AM
76
Bagai,

>> "The real fatwas are the ones issued against Rushdie and now the Danish cartoonists"

The fact that "Brother Goolam" has been vehement in speaking out against these two fatwas and against all fatwas does not of course mean anything to this dope.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 11, 2006 12:00 AM
77
Incidentally, a mosque and the Madarasa attached to the mosque was demolished in Mumbai – Daily News & Analysis dt 8/5/2006 for widening the roads. There was no protest, no riots against this demolition. No media coverage either.

How sad that such a thing had to happen in the secular haven of Maharashtra run by the twice borne seculars.

A similar demolition in Gujarat resulted in riots and death of innocent civilians.

Wonder if Gujarat has professional rioters whose aim is to protest actual / perceived hurts caused by Modidom ? or a mosque demolition by Modi government is more sinister than a mosque demolition by a Sonia Gandhi led congress governments ?
Charan
Mumbai, India
May 11, 2006 12:00 AM
78
11 lakh rupee reward to Kil dan Brown !!

" a former corporator Nicholas Almeida, has done a Haji Qureishi, announcing a reward of Rs 11 lakh for anyone who “brings the author dead or alive before him”.


http://www.hindustantim...ws/181_1694963,0035.htm


Hope the Liberal Seculars wake up and react..
shankar
Mumbai, India
May 11, 2006 12:00 AM
79
Sorry for the Typo..

read Kill Dan Brown !! for "Kil dan Brown !! "
shankar
Mumbai, India
May 11, 2006 12:00 AM
80
Brother Goolam

The 12 Pakistani and Afghani headed for Denmark have the support and blessing of the powerful
mullahs , I dont think that mumbling your disagrrement under your quilt, makes any difference.

Brother Mirza Faisal said that the Pakistani mullahs had issued a fatwa against terrorists. And now we see them actively promoting murder.

I dont think muslims will find it easy to get a visa to enter Denmark. We are a bit dumb. We can not figure out the difference between the peaceful and the dangerous muslims. Therefore its safest to keep all of them out. This is the line which most Europeans have adopted.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 11, 2006 12:00 AM
81
Bagai,

>> "The 12 Pakistani and Afghani headed for Denmark have the support and blessing of the powerful mullahs"

It is your evil-motivated lumping the names of "Brother Goolam" and Brother Faizal with these Mullahs that make you the despicable person that you are.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 11, 2006 12:00 AM
82
Varun, we have to denounce terrorism whenever it occurs, and combat it in every possible way, so get off your equal-equal horse. It serves no purpose.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 11, 2006 12:00 AM
83
Just the other day, Lashkar-E-Toiba operatives were caught in Sambhajinagar/Aurangabad with explosives very likely to be used on Ellora. Can you imagine he stink if some Hindus in India or anywhere were intercepted while trying to blow up a Moslem monument or a Christian one? We would be hearing about it night and day. And the "secular" or equal-equal crowd would be citing the incident as evidence that "See! Hindus are just as bad. Just as Moslems have destroyed many buildings, so too have Hindus" . It would be a Godsend for those people. Even now, the so called secularists will mention Babri Masjid and Haines in Orissa as fixed points, every time there is an Islamic terrorist attack, no matter how many there are. While Moslem terrorists kill x and y and z and destroy this and this and this, Hindu nationalists brought down a mosque in 1992. See the problem with that?
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
May 11, 2006 12:00 AM
84
Lalit and others, please remember( while citing the detestable threats to the Danish cartoonists) that India has suffered, and is suffering, much, much more from Islamic terrorists than Denmark or Netherlands. How many people have those countries actually lost? Two? India loses that number almost every day in Kashmir. I can remember at least 5 terrorist attacks in the rest of India, that were thwarted thanks to the vigilance of India's police and other forces, for which they receive little public acknowledgement. The most recent was just yesterday when Lashkar-E-Toiba scum were prevented from setting off explosives, probably in historic Ellora.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
May 12, 2006 12:00 AM
85
Brother Goolam

My comments were in reply to the statement made by Brother Mirza Faisal, that many Imams in Pakistan etc had issued fatwas against terrorists.

In this connection I pointed out that it was therefore strange that the same mullahs were now
sponsoring a murder in Denmark,Quite remarkeable characters I must say. And to boot , men of good, and of a religion which is the epitome of peace and tolerance.

I can not see how and why you feel insulted.
Maybe its a natural reaction. You are becomeing paranoid my friend.


Meanwhile I will certify that you are a probably a harmless chap , and no danger to man or beast. I hope this will make up for any provacation which I may have caused you.

Namaskar Goolam bhai.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 12, 2006 12:00 AM
86
Biraj K

I am concerned about India. All of us are.

India is confronting problems like no other country in the world. Its beset with dissent
between major religions and social groupings , faces a powerful communist movement seeking to end the current economic breakthrough, an explodeing population and very limited resources.

To complete the misery the governments in the centre and states have less know how then states in the USA, or Germany.How can UP ,s Mulayam Singh compare with Angela Merkel or our own Danish PM. And after the elections I despair when I see the morons who have come to power.

In the centre we have MMSingh a man of straw, beholden to Sonia who is lacking in basic
skills of economic or any other policy.

If India stays as it is, a unwieldy and incompetent conglomerate then it will have a bleak future. Many of the constituenst like the two communist states will spell disaster for the rest.

My suggestion would be to make the union more manageable by throwing out the most problemtic states.It is better that some of India does well, then that the whole should sink,

However this suggestion is just that, and ofcource will never even be considered.

Being in business I know that most conglomerates prove to be disasters. Groups like the Daimler Chrysler , Tyco, etc have had to spin of some of their units to survive . Makes sense.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 12, 2006 12:00 AM
87
Bagai,

>> "....it was therefore strange that the same mullahs were now sponsoring a murder in Denmark,Quite remarkeable characters"

The same mullahs??? Why do you have to keep lying and distorting?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 12, 2006 12:00 AM
88
Biraj K

The one solution to some of Indias state is a loosening of the bonds between the centre and the states.

Bengal and Kerala are communist states. And good luck to them. But its insane that they should
be allowed to make policy for the people of Gujerat, Rajasthan, Punjab etc. These states with a Hindu, Sikh entrepreunar spirit dont need socialism . They want liberal capitalism in the first stage and perhaps welfare capitalism much later on. The poor in these states are willing to work hard, unlike the work shy Bongos, and Assamese.

Furthermore the above states and others like them are tired of the pro minorities agenda.
Hard working Hindus and Sikhs, Jains do not want to be shouldered by dogmatic minorities, who do
not contribute much, but have a devisive agenda and a long list of demands.. That means goodbye to Uttar Pradesh ,Assam etc.

I suppose dissolution of the Union is too difficult a job, but the joint family system where a few work, and the rest sit back, except for infuriateing comments to us about minority protection, dalit protection is just way of.

There are some states, some groups of people who want to work hard and prosper. There are some who want strikes and bandhs and yet others who want to pray five times a day, have large families and spread the word.

My message is that individual states should to a much larger extent decide their own destiny,
socialist, islamic or liberal hindu capitalism.
Its not that being unfair. It means giveing each state the maximum room to shape its own destiny.In other words let Bengal, Kerala, UP, Assam carry on their slide downwards, but stop bugging the states like Gujerat which want to move up. By the way these states have the largest number of minorities, and this should be especially good for them.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 12, 2006 12:00 AM
89
Brother Goolam

I think that you have truly earned the name slippery Faruki. No matter what, you have some absurd explanation for the mullahs, and your tribesmen.

Who gives a damn if it was the same mullahs or some others.The fact is that mullahs in Pakistan are paying for the dirty dozen. And I have heard of no public demonstrtions from people like you.
Or from any one includeing the muslim bosses in
Pakistan. No Sir. Musharaff would never risk his ass on such a futile and dangerous effort.

Why dont you , your liberal friends organise
a demo in New York.

I read in Pakistan Link that jews , christiians
had a million man march to protest against the
genocide in Darfur. This article mentioned that there were no muslim participation.

However do one thing.

When you go to bed tonight, mumble under the quilt. I hate the mullahs. I support the people in Darfur. I am a liberal,

And in the morning, shout loudly. I hate the RSS. I hate Modi.

You can have it both ways, slippery Sam.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 12, 2006 12:00 AM
90
Brother Goolam

The same Mullahs.

Ofcource not, answered another brother

We have all sorts of mullahs.

Some have beards and skull caps, and cardboard cutters. We have mullahs who are dressed in Saville Road suits, who can deal with the infidels at their level.

We have all sorts of mullahs. And some are double faced. They can change their clothes and
exteriors at a moments notice.

If you attack the Mullahs, we can always say , you are wrong. Mullah A may be inciteing jehad, but then there is Mullah B, who was on his prayer mat.

No Sir, you are wrong. Islam is a peaceful religion. Read the Milli Gazette, and whats more listen to Brother Goolam. He will reassure you that except for a few rotten apples, the rest are just fine people.But they are naturally not willing to appear in public. Now thats quite reasonable dont you think.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 12, 2006 12:00 AM
91
Lalitbhai, I am always willing to felicitate talent, no matter how unlikely the source. Your satire of Ghulam Faruki's foxy style of argument was excellent.

Incidentally, here is a devastating article from "The Pioneer" about India's real condition:



http://www.dailypioneer...DITS&file_name+edit3...


Ramdas Bajjanbhai
Jinja, Uganda
May 12, 2006 12:00 AM
92
Lalit, I meant the article by k ps gill in today's pioneer.
Ramdas Bajjanbhai
Jinja, Uganda
May 13, 2006 12:00 AM
93
Bigot Bagai says, "Who gives a damn if it was the same mullahs or some others."

That is as stupid as calling all Hindus bigots because of you!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 13, 2006 12:00 AM
94
Ramdas/Abdullah/Sandhu/ Thomas,

"Your satire of Ghulam Faruki's foxy style..."

A snake out to hiss about foxiness!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
May 13, 2006 12:00 AM
95
Brother Goolam

If some mullahs appear and sponsor murder, then the blame will inevitably effect your community.And its for muslims to punish these guys. .It does not matter if some mullahs come up with another message. There are harmless nitwits in each group.You cant hide behind them

The muslim community must come up with one single message, and not allude to alibis or doubtful explantions to evade reponsibility.And they must all behave in a responsible civilised manner. All we get are spokepeople like you, who demand indulgence, because as you say there are just a few baddies. Thats not good enough. The few baddies with their sponsors have created quite a bit of damage all over the world.

The worlds patience has run out. No one will give you any benefits of doubt any more
I referred to Dr Becker professor in University of Chicago, a nobel laureate who said that unfortunately most of the terrorists were from muslim countries, especially Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Now ring him up and tell him that he is a bigoted idiot.He suggested that whilst he regretted it, he favoured an immigration ban on these kind of people. I am sure you must know
how tough its for muslims to get visas to visit the USA, I can assure you that the Danish government will keep out most muslims, in view that a mullah sponsored delegation is gonna be
come calling.

There is nothing positive comeing out from the
muslim world. Threats of terror, murder, combined
with praise of Allah and his messenger. Hardly ever does one get to hear of a muslim who has
done something positive.

As an American commented in a paper, we are scared that our jobs will be taken by the Indians, and our lives and homes by the muslims.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
May 13, 2006 12:00 AM
96
Bigot Bagai says, "It does not matter if some mullahs come up with another message."

Classic bigot rant. Guilt by association! This guy seems to have no insight at all in what he says.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
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