Atul Loke
Amit : A BTech of the 1998 batch from IIT Bombay, this thirtysomething from Nasik is currently working as senior engineer with software firm Semantic in Pune. He wishes the grades awarded in entrance examinations to the IITs were more transparent. "At least we would know where we stand," he says. He also bemoans the lack of coaching institutes for people like him.
RESERVATION
How Sharad Got A Life
As did Amit, Risha, Parag and many like them. Quotas empowered them to take on challenges. Here's their side of the story. Updates
poll sop
Does the Congress truly back reservation or is it another poll-time gimmick?
Smita Gupta
Cover Story
A state initiative is imparting Dalit-Adivasis professional skill
S. Anand
opinion
Could become a whole nation's nightmare and lose us our few good things
Prem Shankar Jha
"Every segment of the society should have access to higher eduction...we have to create space for them even if it pinches the purse of an institution."

Prof Anil Gupta, IIM Ahmedabad

"Of the 700 students, barely five persons fail, of which some may be Dalits. Some may take longer to finish the course, they are allowed to do so."

Raja Kumar Dean, IIT Kharagpur

"Harvard should have come down by now with affirmation action providing place for blacks and ethnic minorities for many years."

D.L. Sheth, Centre for Study of Developing Societies

"They have political power and land, two aspects which go against the spirit of reservation. Mandal will only perpetuate caste."

Prof Dipankar Gupta, JNU


For Or Against Reservation?
What's on the roster?

The government has to respect the Constitution and make provisions for a just society.

  • Fifty-six years of reservation has achieved little. Merit and merit alone must be the criterion for admissions.

Many castes are still on the margins. Generations have had no access to higher quality education. Reservation is the only way to bring them to the mainstream.

  • A powerful OBC creamy layer has already captured political space and don't deserve quotas. Reservation is a political tool parties use to pander to votebanks.

Reservations will open up job opportunities for the backwards.

  • The most backward castes will never benefit from reservation. They will still be kept out. The focus should be on primary education.

Every section of the society should have access to higher education. It should not be confined only to the affluent and the influential.

  • Will put a severe strain on higher institutes of learning. Quality of higher education will suffer once standards for entry are lowered.

Quota should be implemented with the condition that institutions increase their total number of seats to correct imbalances.

  • Number of seats may not increase because of resource crunch. Meritorious students will be left with no option but to study abroad.


***

 

 

"I sensed I was different when the government started giving free clothes for scheduled caste students. I was ridiculed by other students and humiliated in the class. I was told being a Dalit we were supposed to skin animals and work in the farms of landlords," says Tanmay. Today, thirtysomething Tanmay is a software design engineer at Microsoft Corporation in the US. A graduate from the Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore, reservation, he says, actually transformed his life. In the heated din surrounding the government's decision to reserve 27 per cent seats for Other Backward Classes (OBCs) in centrally-aided institutes of higher learning, Tanmay's voice may never be heard. In fact, with the media spearheading a virtual campaign against reservations, there is a sizeable section of Dalits and OBCs who fear that empowerment through reservation will not happen if the government does a rethink on what has become a contentious issue among the elite.

But before the merits or demerits of reservations are put to question, a few common beliefs need to be addressed. They go like this:. .

  • Once the 27 per cent OBC quota is added to the existing 22.5 per cent reservation for Dalits and scheduled tribes, only 49.5 per cent seats would fall into the reserved category. It would leave few seats for the rest.
  • Dropout rates among quota candidates is very high. This proves reservation is undeserved.
  • Most Dalit students have no academic bent of mind and do not land jobs.
  • Since many OBC denominations belong to the affluent sections of society, quotas do not make any sense.

 



Parag: An electronics graduate from Nagpur, he went on to do an MTech in civil engineering from IIT Bombay. Now a senior technical consultant with software company Geometric in Pune, he feels his community needs reservations as long as discrimination persists in society. "Globalisation and social discrimination do not go hand in hand," he says.


More than anything else, it is the fear of having to fight for fewer seats that has elicited hysterical reactions from the upper class/upper castes. But a crucial point has been overlooked. Should the OBC quota be implemented, then it would be mandatory for professional institutes like the IITs and IIMs and centrally-aided universities to up the number of seats. The government is clear on this. In fact, IIT Kharagpur has already decided to add 200 seats from next year. The rest of the IITs haven't spelt out their future course of action but are expected to follow suit.

But wouldn't this be a strain on resources? Here is what Professor Anil Gupta of the Indian Institute of Management, Ahmedabad (IIM-A) has to say: "We must ensure that every segment of the society has access to higher education and to do so we have to create a space for them even if it pinches the purse of an institution. There is no reason why professionals should come from only the affluent section of the society." Ideally, he believes that the government should push a good primary and secondary education for all, followed by affirmative action such as reservation.



Devendar Kumar: He spent a year at Allahabad University before moving on to IIT Roorkee in 1986 to acquire a BTech degree in civil engineering. Three years later, he joined the Military Engineering Services as an executive engineer. "I don't want reservations for my children," he says. But that is not because he is against the idea. "I have availed of it and benefited from it," he acknowledges. "I am quite capable of looking after my children."



The debate has also thrown up the question of whether quota students are academically inclined. Since we don't know how OBC reservation will work on the ground, the only case studies before us is of Dalits. It is often thought that their dropout and failure rates are the highest in institutions like IITs. But this is simply not true. Points out Raja Kumar, dean of undergraduate studies, IIT, Kharagpur: "Barely five persons of the 700 students fail, these include Dalits. Some may take longer to finish their course and they are allowed to do so." Adds Anup Sinha, chairperson, alumni affairs, of the same institute: "Dropout rates among our Dalit students are negligible to take note of." In fact, D.L. Sheth of the Centre for the Study of Developing Societies says some of the concerns being voiced are too shrill: "If they're right, Harvard should have come down by now with affirmative action providing space for blacks and ethnic minorities for many years," he says.

Gupta too dispels the widely held view that dropout rates of reserved candidates are high. "Nothing could be further from the truth. IIM-A's dropout rate is a minuscule two per cent and that could comprise both students from the general category and those who find space in the reserved category." Perhaps it is because dropout rates of socially backwards in schools is high, and mostly for reasons other than merit, that the notion has gained currency that they will perform poorly at higher levels of learning too. Going by the list obtained from IIM, Lucknow, more than 11 SC students who passed out this year have landed jobs in corporate India. Quite understandably, the new generation of Dalits with a management degree in hand do not want their caste identities to be disclosed for fear of spoiling their careers in Indian companies—largely a preserve of the upper castes.



Sourav : He passed out of IIT Kharagpur just this year with a BTech degree in mechanical engineering. Now this lad from Patna is all set to leave for Italy to work with Danieli, a steel manufacturing company. "Reservation helped me get into IIT," he acknowledges. "But that is no guarantee for a degree. You have to work hard." And jobs? "Quota won't help you there. You are on your own."



On the threshold of starting a career in branded catering services is Sharad Babu from IIM-A. He says scholarships helped him dream of a future. He walked his way out of the slums of Chennai where he attended free tutorial classes in the evening at a local municipal school, right into the portals of IIM. Says Babu, "Till I passed out of school, I had only one pair of clothes and don't recall having more than one meal a day. My mother sold idlis so that I could study." Babu is now working out a grand plan of offering quality services at a reasonable price. He is excited that financial support is coming his way.

It is more often the lack of money that is the biggest stumbling block for Dalits. There are many students who have benefited from scholarships offered by the state and are grateful for that. Says Takshak, an M.Tech from IIT, Bombay, who is currently working with telecom major at&t, "I was offered a scholarship and this to me was the first and single-most encouraging thing that shaped my career. It's not as if I didn't have the brains. What I lacked was money and a social background." Professionals like Takshak say, as they have already benefited from reservation, they would not like to extend the same to their children. But these views, they caution, should not be taken for the entire community.



M.M. Risha : This Electronics and Communications BTech and lecturer for 18 months was a student at the Centre for Excellence, Kozhikode, which is under the 'incubation' of IIM, Kozhikode. Armed with a CEx's Certificate Course for Professional Development, she completed her MTech and is now systems analyst with Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu in Hyderabad. She is the first graduate in her family. Her mother teaches pre-school and father is a headload worker.


Which brings us to the debate over reservation for OBCs spelt out in the Mandal report. Should backward castes be taken as a block for upliftment? There are some who believe that the creamy layer does not deserve any reservation. Making a case for the Most Backward Castes (MBCs) of this group, who make up more than 40 per cent of the OBC population, D. Shyam Babu, Fellow at the Rajiv Gandhi Foundation, says: "Unlike the Scheduled Castes, with the OBCs there have always been landed castes like the Jats and Yadavs of the North and the Gounders of the South. If reservation is extended to all the OBCs without identifying the Most Backward Castes, it can lead to disastrous consequences."

Sheth does not dispute the need for reservations but says the task of identifying the privileged among the OBCs should have been completed before any future policy decision was announced. "First and foremost, the reservation policy needs to be rationalised in light of the fact that many of the OBCs identified in the Mandal report have ceased to be backward in the last 15 years," says Sheth.



Takshak : An MTech from IIT Bombay, he comes from a small village in Maharashtra. Today, he works with telecom giant AT&T. "Reservation changed my life completely. But it can help you only in gaining access. After that you have to prove yourself," he says.


Reservations in some states like Tamil Nadu and Karnataka have led to affluent caste groups coming to dominate public space. Professor Dipankar Gupta of the Jawahar Lal Nehru University says while reservation for Dalits was justified because they were discriminated against, the OBC reservation makes little sense. "I cannot see justification in this. While it may be true that they are not be seen in urban jobs, they have political power and land—two aspects which go against the spirit of reservation and will give caste a durable status. Mandal will only perpetuate caste. " He also cautions that the move might leave some deprived sections of the society with no option but to start educational institutions to cater to their own communities.



Prakash Singh An OBC from Tikari village in Allahabad, he scored 90.44 percentile in the GATE exam that earned him a scholarship at BITS Pilani. The BTech in mechanical engineering made him the first engineer in his village. He is currently a piping engineer with Siemens. About reservations, he says, "It is a must. It is for the government to decide on the creamy layer."


While Dipankar sounds the warning bell, there are many who think quality education will take a direct hit with the less worthy getting into professional institutes. But this may be succumbing to a stereotype. As Sanjay, a geologist with the National Hydro Electrical Power, says, "I was better than most of the students at IIT, Roorkee." He explains why he took recourse to reservation as a desperate measure. "You will understand when you see the community and the family I come from. With no money and my father working as a fitter, education was the only way out to fight the system," says Sanjay. Adds Venkat, an MIT graduate now working with Bose Corporation in Massachusetts. "I availed of reservation for getting in BE. Studying at a dysfunctional government school in Andhra Pradesh and ending up at MIT has been a long journey which I couldn't have travelled without the crucial break I got through reservations." So, is there a way out? Prof Anil Gupta reels off some solutions to dispel fears of merit getting eroded with reservation. First, he says prepare a tutorial system for the less privileged. The government should enter into a contract with coaching institutes and offer to subsidise or provide scholarships to such students. This would ensure that they are well prepared to handle the pressures of higher education.

Finally, one thing is clear: given the opportunity, many more can work their way through school and college and benefit from higher education. But the big question is, what is the kind of society we want to shape? As Anil Gupta puts it: "The question that one should be asking is not why reservations, but how do we go about building a just and equitable society."



By Anuradha Raman with Jaideep Majumdar in Calcutta and Alka Pande in Lucknow

 

 

poll sop
Does the Congress truly back reservation or is it another poll-time gimmick?
Smita Gupta
Cover Story
A state initiative is imparting Dalit-Adivasis professional skill
S. Anand
opinion
Could become a whole nation's nightmare and lose us our few good things
Prem Shankar Jha
 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
May 18, 2006 12:00 AM
108
ss
sterel
Bangalore, India
May 02, 2006 12:00 AM
107
Give the examples in terms of p;ercentage of people who used reservation and then later were able to "compete" with the so called "creamy" social layer. If the reservations have to be done why keep them at 50% or 70% (as Tamil Nadu has done) - Lets go ahead and create 100% reservation as that will at least not give parents and children false hop;e to stay and develop their motherland. Hail Reservation !! Hail Quota Raj !!
ashutosh
indore, india
May 02, 2006 12:00 AM
106
The debate over here is not "Has anyone benefitted from reservations" because whenever there are goodies for grab someone will get them. The question here is are the goodies going to the deserving person. Reservations need to be looked both from short term and long term perspective. It might have been a good idea to provide reservations in the early era of the post Independence development, but when provided over a long period it only becomes another crutch whereby the people benefitting from this will keep increasing the demand instead of becoming self sufficient. To the people who say that so called "brahmins" and "baniyas" are occuying the 90% of the creamy positions in India - I cannot dispute the figures as I do not have any. However if they are, I would say kudos to them as they are having only 50% of seats available but still go on to sweat and deserve the 90% positions.
ashutosh
indore, india
Apr 26, 2006 12:00 AM
105
Bhajanbhai

You have got me wrong on all counts. I make no difference between people, be they black, brown white or yellow. I have affection for animals too.

But I can not convince you , So let it be, let it be.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 24, 2006 12:00 AM
104
Lalitbhai, don't sweat over it. All you have done is made an honest statement exemplifying the essential heartlessness of upper castes like yourself. I have found this to be the case in so many many instances: the uppercastes talk big about their pride in Hinduism, their Hindu identity, their concern about its fate in relation to Islam. But when you mention the sheer misery in which most Hindus live, they are surprised that you care. Isn't it obvious that the Indian poor are mostly low caste and hence non-human, is their all too obvious attitude. Low caste lives are cheap; low castes, Dalits, Tribals, are just animals in upper caste eyes.

But this shows that they are nor real Hindus. How could they be if they care so little about the life and death of the vast majority of Hindus?

So be happy, Lalit. For you the death of some Danish whites will be important; the deaths of Dalits, Tribals, low castes, completely unimportant. That is your "Hinduism".
Ramdas Bajjanbhai
Jinja, Uganda
Apr 22, 2006 12:00 AM
103
Hippo fro Jinja

I know that my provacative remark about the dead farmers is lit up a real fire under the humanists
on this forum

I can say one thing, and I dont know if it will help. If 60 stock brokers had jumped from the top of a sky scraper, ny response would be the same. Life and death is a process which we all have to accept.

Besides life in poor countries is cheap. Thats the truth,and we know it all. People die of cold in winter in Delhi, of starvation in Orissa, of
militancy in all parts of India. Its a battle my friends going on 24 hours of the day.

And dont tell me that the Congressi crowd are bothered two hoots if pilgrims are killed in Varanasi or Akshadam, of poverty or whatever. Their eyes are firmly on their vote banks, and they will support the devil if need be to get their votes.

Being cynical. Certainly. Being truthful . Most certainly so.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 22, 2006 12:00 AM
102
Basing reservation on the criterion of economic backwardness takes away the focus from the more important objective - bridging the gap in aptitude among different groups. More than money, it's the aptitude that decides if one has it in him to make it to a premier institute or not. There's a strong correlation between aptitude levels and socioeconomic status of groups in India. Regardless of wealth, there are some groups that are definitely backward as regards aptitude. So, although students from such families can afford higher education, yet they cannot make it to the course by merit. You don't need reservations to help students from economically backward families to pursue higher education. Scholarship schemes address that quite well. The fundamental aim of reservations is, instead, to help students from families with lower-than-average IQ to pursue the kind of education that the academically brilliant ones do. Coupled with measures to address the same at schooling level, this practice, if adopted sensibly, will effect near-identical IQ levels across all groups in, say, fifty years. After that reservations can be put away, for it becomes redundant then.

Vijayender Ch
Bangalore
Vj
Hyderabad, India
Apr 21, 2006 12:00 AM
101
Old Hippo

Just forget it. I dont feel any responsibility to help anyone. If I do so anyway its because of my own free will. Be assured I would not give you a glass of water.

This ends my debate with you.


You are one of the most
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 21, 2006 12:00 AM
100
Sanghamitra writes:"Its not difficult to understand why the so called uppercastes hate Amartya sen. He made it known to the whole world that the lack of "Human Capabilities" in India (education, health, poverty etc) is a direct result of the discrimination faced by the dalits because of the HIndu caste system."

The lack of "Human Capabilities" is the result of the "socialist" policies that successive governments have been following since independence - the same socialist policies that Amartya Sen and his ilk still believe in and are willing to force on the people.

Like I said, they are unable to digest the fact that India is making progress after it has moved away from socialist ideologies - their bread & butter. Hence, their eagerness to trash anything symbolic of Indian success.

And again, Narayanmurthy has made it known to the whole world the "human capabilities" that India has.

How many jobs has Amartya Sen generated with his socialistic trash?
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Apr 21, 2006 12:00 AM
99
Sanghmitra wrote:
"Its not difficult to understand why the so called uppercastes hate Amartya sen. He made it known to the whole world that the lack of "Human Capabilities" in India (education, health, poverty etc) is a direct result of the discrimination faced by the dalits because of the HIndu caste system."

Let us see who is talking of discrimination, people who are talking of reservations are dividing and discriminating based on caste.

we are talking of exactly the same rules for evry human being, it is you who is keen on discriminating
Ajay
Troy, usa
Apr 21, 2006 12:00 AM
98
I think that all of us agree that all Indian kids should get a good start in school.

In order to get this good start it is obvious that the government schools, hospitals, and offices should get their act togather. That is where everything goes wrong.

One solution would be to turn over the government schools to private parties. The other would be to make sure that the teachers do their jobs. Easier said then done.

Excasberating caste wars as in Cambodia under the Pol Pot, as advictaed by the Ugandan Hippo will do no good. Civil war is not what India needs now.

Furthermore how does the hippo explain the failure of muslims in the field of education. They dont have a caste system, and their religion is all for enlightenment. Are
we middleclasses to blame for them too.

Answer oh enlightened hippo from Jinja. We wait your wise words.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 21, 2006 12:00 AM
97
Cant anyone.. ANY ONE of the "jounralist" ever find a poor brahmin who could nto get into an educational institue coz of reservations? Do you want me to find that for you? i can show them in thousands. guys gimme a break. my father was capable of paying for my engg seat so i go admitted to one. not many are that lucky. My dad had to face reservations all thru his life, and i had to until i moved out of India. If you are still hell bent on reserving every *edited* space in every sphere of life, God Bless You. I will live outside of India for the rest of my life and that of my children's.
shashank
Hyderabad, India
Apr 21, 2006 12:00 AM
96
Lalitbhai:

Take an extra big magnum of Bollinger champagne out of your battlebag and cool off, old boy. D

on't use vulgarly abusive language as this might create a catastrophe. You might be thrown off the site, and as you have been a major source of entertainment with your fool remarks for several years everyone will be distraught.

A few Dalits and OBCs getting IIT reservations won't bring heaven down. It just means a few less Brahmnins in the USA in future. Hence all the vast outcry by that wonderful tribe.

Lalit, you don't need to comvince me you have a great heart churning with love for the poor. Your recent comment that the suicide of bankrupt Indian farmers is not worthy of interest or concern, and that the Indian poor could never be helped anyway and should consider quick-death remedies as practiced by the very old and sick in Holland, shocked every decent person on this website.

You and other Uppercastes have made me realise as never before that the Indian Uppercastes couldn't care less about the vast majority of Hindus, and hence are not Hindus at all. You all belong to a separate religion.

I am busy now. Will return to this later. You clearly need instruction, old joker.
Ramdas Bajjanbhai
Jinja, Uganda
Apr 21, 2006 12:00 AM
95
Bhajanbhai

I think you are a very stupid, obstinate bum, who knows nothing about India. I have worked in environment, social sector for years. Have you any idea what you are talking about.

The problem in India is that the resources used by the government are wasted. Teachers dont teach, doctors dont treat, and babus in offices
come to work for a few hours, drink tea and demand bribes for doing their job.

It is corruption, incompetence which is working against every Indian. The rich can get away with it, but the poor are victims.

But then the poor are the ones who decides who rules the country. They choose their own kind, Laloo, Paswan, Mayawati. Dont blame the high caste when it is the backward politicians who are the ones responsible, Dont blame the rich when it is the backward teacher, babu who will not do his job.

And for your info my family has built a school for 450 kids in Haryana, in collaboration with the SOS. I noticed dureing several visits, that the teachers are not well trained, and it was nearly impossible to get a suitable head master.
No one wants to work in villages. The clinic provided can not function, because no doctor wants to work in a village. Village women can get
sterlised for free, but the mullahs are against it.

You simplify all problems by blameing the middle classes. I noticed that people in Himachal and Uttaranchal were much better of. I dont know why, but thank god that they are.

Stop ranting about high and low classes. I will share a plate of food with a dalit or any one.
I have tried to do my best, for anyone I come across. People like you just put me. You are the one who is biased and prejudiced. You wont do any one any good, with your poisonous tirades.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 21, 2006 12:00 AM
94
V Rajan, what is your gripe? Is it the end of the world if some Dalts, Tribals and OBCs get a place in the sun along with the Uppercastes who have always monopolised it? Would you not be ashamed, as a presumed Hindu, if foreigners noted that in prestige education insitutions in India there were very few people from outside the Upper castes? What IS so terrible about limited reservation to ensure a better caste distribution in such places? There are so many applicants in all categories that standards won't suffer except perhaps in the short run.

What amazes me always is: how heartless uppercaste people are. They claim to be Hindus, but usually lack even an atom of fellow-feeling with their supposed fellow Hindus of the low castes. That is why I say: uppercastes are NOT Hindus. How can they be, if they feel no solidarity with the vast majority of Hindus? Uppercateism is a separate religion in its own right. Hinduism is very different. real Hindus are OBCs, Dalits and Tribals.

Anyway, why moan about the reservations, Rajan? Simply marry a Dalit or Tribal. You upper castes presumably have no prejudices against them. That will solve the whole problem. Your children will be low caste.
Ramdas Bajjanbhai
Jinja, Uganda
Apr 21, 2006 12:00 AM
93
Lalitbhai, have you put in your application for a scholarship under the Bagai education scheme so that you can get a basic education, as I urged you to do? Don't lose this chance ! There are only 20 places.
Ramdas Bajjanbhai
Jinja, Uganda
Apr 21, 2006 12:00 AM
92
Vijay:

Of course you run away. I busted your smug uppercaste drivel. Your claim to speak on behalf of Indians, for instance, I showed to be bunkum.

You guys can't win. All political parties in India need the OBC vote. You can accept reservations - or drop dead.
Ramdas Bajjanbhai
Jinja, Uganda
Apr 21, 2006 12:00 AM
91
Ajay, Troy

Right on Mr Premji. You are competeing against IBM, accenture etc. You have to have the best people on board, whether they be black, brown or blue. Only imbeciles of which there are many on this forum, will oppose you.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 21, 2006 12:00 AM
90
Srinivas writes
"""People like Amartya Sen are basically commies who are unable to digest the fact that India is moving towards a capitalist economy as against the Socialism that they have learnt and have taught and believed all their lives.""


Its not difficult to understand why the so called uppercastes hate Amartya sen. He made it known to the whole world that the lack of "Human Capabilities" in India (education, health, poverty etc) is a direct result of the discrimination faced by the dalits because of the HIndu caste system.

Well said Ramdas.
sanghmitra
Mumbai, India
Apr 21, 2006 12:00 AM
89
What caste are Ms Raman, Ms Pande and Mr Majumdar? Not one of them sounds like dalit or OBC to me. What caste is Mr Vinod Mehta? How many dalits and OBCs in the Raheja group that owns Outlook? Or any discounts available to OBCs and Dalits shopping in Globus stores run by the Raheja group? Are the homes built by Raheja group available at a concessional prices for dalits and OBCs? Why wouldn't a media business owned by a Sindhi trader caste person (Ranjan Raheja) trust anybody but a person from another trader caste (Vinod Mehta) with the top job? If this is not (upper) casteism, what is?

Neither Raheja Group nor Outlook need to wait for the government to implement quotas in private sector. They can do it on their own. Why are they not doing it? Talk is cheap isn't it? Or is this a "containment" game, where the Rahejas and Mehtas seek to secure their own positions by mouthing concern for OBCs more loudly than anybody else, just as our uppercaste politicians do?

Here's a suggestion: the most decent and non-hypocritical course of action for the upper castes of Outlook is to quit their jobs and hand them over to deserving dalits and OBCs. Surely, we need dalits and OBCs in the media more than anywhere else so that they can speak for themselves instead of upper castes claiming to be their spokespersons?
V Rajan
Chennai (Madras), India
Apr 21, 2006 12:00 AM
88
Ramdass,
Why do you want to divide people, why this 88 vs 12. fortunately people like you are a very small bunch, people who were brainwashed by the likes of Ambedkar, KanshiRam and Mayawati
Ajay
Troy, usa
Apr 20, 2006 12:00 AM
87
Thanks Ajayaji, at least some body supported it!
Biranchi Narayan Acharya.
Cuttack, India
Apr 20, 2006 12:00 AM
86
Ramdass. It is amazing how you confirm my opinions even more strongly with each post of yours.

There is a saying that when you find yourself in a hole, you should stop digging.
vijay
Chennai, India
Apr 20, 2006 12:00 AM
85
Vijay:

Don't attribute your sort of motives to me. The only people in India who over many centuries and EVEN TODAY have indulged in killing and expelling harmless human beings are the Uppercasteists and Muslims. The real Hindus do not do things like that. Don't attribute the sins of your anti-Hindu Uppercasteist crew to me.

I was dead right that your pious platitudes about having national interests at heart proved to be just that: hypocritical Uppercaste concern to keep the plums of advanced sector education and jobs for your precious Uppercasteist anti-Hindu selves and to deny them to the lower castes, Dalits and Tribals.

You make a big deal about speaking for Indians. Who are you kidding? Which Indians do your Uppercasteist type speak for? Not the 88 per cent of Hindus who belong to OBCs, Dalits and Tribals, I'll bet. I have OFTEN met Uppercasteist types who objected to my concern about Indian poverty who said: None of your business, it's our Indian concern. But I have NEVER met a working-class, lower caste or Dalit Indian who objected to my concern about Indian poverty. It is the reality of thier lives and they know it only too well. Yopu Uppercastes are a fast-decreasing, small minority. You burn your brides and abort your female foetuses. You have few children. You are on the way out, buddy. You don't own or speak for India. Get lost to Pakistan.
Ramdas Bajjanbhai
Jinja, Uganda
Apr 20, 2006 12:00 AM
84
What we are really fighting are the Ramdass' of the world. Hateful, and intolerant. Incapable or moderation or real debate. Doctrinaire and Ideological to the point of idiocy.

Instigating issues from the safe distance of Uganda.

And the biggest aim in life:
"But you also know that reservations would mean some Uppercaste lads won't sail off to Amrrrikkka. Instead some OBC and Dalit lads will."

How about trying to create an Amrika in India buddy? Instead you want to create a country of "pure people" by killing or expelling everyone you dont agree with, Brahmins and Muslims. There is already a country created on those principles and it is called Pakistan, the land of the Pure. Look how that worked out.

If you are incapable of moderation, and as filled with hate as your comments suggests, then we in India are thankful that you are in Uganda.
vijay
Chennai, India
Apr 20, 2006 12:00 AM
83
Vijay:

How you Uppercaste anti-Hindus fight like crazy when your little juicy applecarts are upset! You jolly well know that lower standards are not going to happen for long due to reservations because there are so many candidates. But you also know that reservations would mean some Uppercaste lads won't sail off to Amrrrikkka. Instead some OBC and Dalit lads will. Cheecheee!!! DIRTY people like that! I can hear all those Uppercaste Mommas screaming!!! Black-black junglis!!! Instead of MY WHEAT-COMPLEXIONED BRAMIN BOYYYYYYY!!!!!! How cruel...!

But why do these Uppercaste anti-Hindus want to go to Ammrrikka anyway? Surely Amrrikka is the country of the dirty mlechchaas? Will not the good Brahmin attain moksha so much more easliy in India? Let him stay there and practice austerities for one billion years. Then he will be reincarnated as a Dalit and get reservation for IIT. That is how you should apply your karma theory, Vijay.

Brahmins and Uppercastes have a real cheek. they treat Hindus - OBCs, Dalits, Tribals - like dirt, expolit, rape and kill them, and when these fight back, they cry: "You are ISOLATING US FROM THE NATIONAL MAINSTREAM!!!".

You know what? The Uppercastes and the Muslims have brought havoc, misery and ruin to India over thousands of years. They enslaved and pitilessly exploited real Hindus. They should both just go to Pakistan. India will rejoice. They are the twin deadly enemies of india.


Ramdas Bajjanbhai
Jinja, Uganda
Apr 20, 2006 12:00 AM
82
BANGALORE: Pitting jobs quotas against the global advantages that merit brings along, Wipro chairman Azim Premji said on Wednesday, "My company believes in hiring people based on merit."

Commenting on the PM’s plea to industry captains on Tuesday to voluntarily extend "affirmative action" by broadbasing the employee profile of their organisations and making it more representative, Premji said the only way to compete with global players was by hiring the "best-in-class" people both from India and the rest of the world.

"We appreciate the compulsions that the country is going through in terms of reservations. I would not like to get into the controversy of trying to comment on it. But we are an organisation which requires to select people on merit," he said.

Premji said 80% of Wipro’s global revenues came from Europe, the US and Japan, and parts of West Asia. "We compete with global companies and are primarily in the services business, which is highly people dependent."

"People (employees) determine our success or they make you less successful. We have no alternative but to hire the best talent available within India or globally for critical or non-critical positions," he said.
Ajay
Troy, usa
Apr 20, 2006 12:00 AM
81
The reservations policy, as it is currently formulated, is simply a means of fanning the flames of political vendetta against the upper castes that is felt by Ramdas and others who have uttered vitreol in these columns. Every problem in India is blamed on the upper castes, and persecuting them by all means possible is considered to be the best means of acheiving India's national goals.

This however, is but a variant of the theme that BJP has developed (and is now trying to tone down). For the BJP, the Muslims are the bogeyman. For the Congress, the Brahmin is. Neither of these policies are good for the nation. Any policy that creates a feeling of hatred towards one section of the population, and permanently cleaves it from the national mainstream would do great long term damage to the Indian nation state.

A better way for the government to address the issue of opportunities is to put money (instead of reservations, and similar bogus schemes) where its mouth is. How about announcing a 10 lakh reward to the training center for each SC/ST candidate of theirs who clears JEE WITHOUT RESERVATIONS.

Money is a powerful motivator. I am certain there will be institutes that sprout up to take advantage of the scheme and identify and train talented students from these backward communities. I am sure there is no shortage of talented students in these communities.

This way, there would also not be an opportunity for the privileged to claim that others have gotton in through unfair means.

I dont see how anyone can have objections to this scheme. The problem of equality, is ultimately a problem of spending money wisely and ensuring that private initiative (like coaching centers) are allowed to take a shot at creating equality.
vijay
Chennai, India
Apr 20, 2006 12:00 AM
80
Acharya Ji -Excellent post. Thanks
Ajay
Troy, usa
Apr 20, 2006 12:00 AM
79
PART-1

Two things are most important. In this modern era caste is never a class & some thing urgently to be done for the backward classes in achieving the social justice. Reservation in any form definitely not an answer as the last 59 years of experience proved that instead of creating a creamy layer it achieved nothing. Reservation basing on caste in higher education or government jobs if followed for another century will serve little to the deprived section rather it will increase caste bashing & division of in the lines of caste thus benefiting some opportunistic caste based politicians.

Before submitting my opinion I would like to point out two things. The Chairmen of Bajaj group said in a TV interview that around one third of their workers belong to oppressed caste and all of them are proud that they are in their job not because of quota but because of their merits. The Indian express report says that tribal students drop out rate even at elementary stage is more than 90 % due to their inability to understand the medium of education & financial compulsions of their parents despite the mid day meal programmer.

The present society can be divided in to three classes as per economical capabilities such as rich class, middle class & poor class. Special attention is required for this poor class where instead of reservation, affirmative actions should be followed. The poor class can further be divided as i) above poverty line (APL), ii) below poverty line (BPL), & iii) tribal community. Surprisingly all the three subclasses constitute around 50% of our total population & includes all oppressed communities yet excludes the creamy layers. Further it took care of the needy ones yet the caste factor is quite absent.

Merit in any community is never a question provided they are given the opportunity & environment. If care can be provided they always can compete with any body at any field. A simple example can be verified in the game of cricket. Earlier this game was dominated by the metro cities & small cities due to lack of infra structure & training treated as oppressed & thought was that small cities do not have talents. Examine the present team India, how with the help of TV coverage alone players from small cities out played the player of big cities!

Biranchi Narayan Acharya.
Cuttack, India
Apr 20, 2006 12:00 AM
78
PART-2

However let us come to the point what should be the affirmative actions? My suggestion would be as follows.

The students from APL group should be given absolute free & quality education in their primary & secondary education. In the senior secondary level & during coaching they must be provided with stipends & in their professional studies or higher studies they should be given study loans. The students who do not do better or failed in matriculation, they should be accommodated in vocational trainings with stipend & must be employed through self employment schemes after passing out the courses.

The students from BPL groups should be given stipends from their elementary stages itself so that their parents never compel them for a drop out so that he can support their parents in earning livelihood working as a child laboure. Rest every thing is equal as for the above group.

For tribal students an extra care should be given in the elementary level itself. The students must also be taught in their language in the elementary stage to make them prepared to seek education in the concern State’s language. Apart from financial support to the student, their parents must be employed through some schemes satisfying their traditional expertise.

Experiment in the above line, miracles will happen. Fund investment will be more. But for social justice the country should afford this. Instead of asking reservation in private sectors, government should ask them to contribute for this or ask their participation in these affirmative actions.

One thing is to be remembered. By doing this no body is doing any pity to the oppressed people. Our constitution provides them the right to equality & as a whole country it is everybody’s duty to work towards their justice. If they educated, trained & expertise in various fields they only serve the country better.
Biranchi Narayan Acharya.
Cuttack, India
Apr 20, 2006 12:00 AM
77
Bhajanbhai

There are hundreds of millions of poor in India.
Are you gonna send them all to IIT,s. Nothing less will do. The solution is a broad spectrum of careers, from nurses, shop assistants, drivers,cooks, and of cource some engineers etc. I am a engineer and I can see that I have done anything wonderful. Decided to quit and do something more interesting. My colleagues who stayed as engineers have spent a lifetime with
boreing jobs.

Get wise Bhajanbhai.
Get cool by your pool
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 19, 2006 12:00 AM
76
Rajiv Sandhu alias Abdullah alias buffoon in his new avatar Ramdas says:

India belongs to OBCs, Dalits and Tribals. Therte should be 100 'perect' reservation for them.

Rajiv Gandu alias Ramdas,who claims to be an educated Dalit, what is 'perect'?

I can understand the anxiety of all Indians who think the quality of education in IITs would go down the drain the moment 'perect' Dalits like Rajiv Sandhu alias Ramdas enter IITs on reservation seats after getting 40% marks in Class XII.
Abhimanyu
Mumbai, India
Apr 19, 2006 12:00 AM
75
How wonderful to see a few honest faces of REAL Hindus - those from the OBCs and Dalits/Tribals - who have made good lives for themselves and been able to contribute to India in good jobs in technologically advanced sectors, thanks to help from the Reservattion policy.

It is the sheerest pleasure to see the open and decent and human and honest faces of my fellow REAL Hindus, like Sharad. Well done, dear brothers and sisters, REAL Hindus....!! It is so pleasant even to see your faces compared to the vicious, depraved, oily and boastful faces of Uppercsateists that we usually see gloating about their wealth and success.

How delightful to hear False Hindus and contemptible Uppercasteist characters like Srinivas yelling and screaming because the Reservation policy is depriving the Uppercasteists of their dirty stranglehold on all paying jobs in India and chances of going abroad.....!!!

Bravo, Arjun Singh !!! Your policy proposal to extend reservation is very superb. The Uppercasteist False Hindus are only 12 per cent of the Indian population and dropping all the time as they have few children and systematically abort female foetuses. Let them vacate to pakistan. India will rejoice.

No political party will support their evil cause.

India belongs to OBCs, Dalits and Tribals. Therte should be 100 perect reservation for them.
Ramdas Bajjanbhai
Jinja, Uganda
Apr 19, 2006 12:00 AM
74
lalit writes about me being a chemical engineer.
i wonder what has that got to do with this argument!! who is illogical is for third party to decide.
i am not a supporter of reservation per se. all i wrote was that it is inevitable, given the percentage demography of the country. for even the party that you support, BJP ( bhartiya jhagda party, big joke party etc.) has also decided not to oppose it.
nits
nashville, USA
Apr 19, 2006 12:00 AM
73
Old Nits

Reservation has been provided courtesy the high caste thakur V.P.Singh. And the next one to do so is also high caste thakur Arjun Singh.

However this debate is pointless. India should provide enough eduacational opportunities to cover all, and deny none.

No need for reservation.

You claimed that you are a chemical engineer,
Yet you come up with the most illogical arguments, and are permanently in a rage. Whats the matter.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 19, 2006 12:00 AM
72
Sangamitra = Askok's daughter.

She has made two observations:
1. It is Hinduism that is unfair. Not reservations.
2. Reservations must be awarded solely on the basis of caste, not economics.

I think the solution is simple enough. Everybody who feels Hinduism is unfair should convert to some other religion, and stop clamouring for reservations. We are a free country. The 18% reservations that are currently available would be enough to accomodate the aspirations of those left behind. Case closed.
vijay
Chennai, India
Apr 18, 2006 12:00 AM
71
some information for year "0" for IITians and my friend Sandip's response to the article.

Now this is all BS, been there seen that. For most SC/STs year 0 is essential. They have their own merit list, their own quota. The year 0
students are housed at IITs expense and coached. Most of them are pathetic.
If you have to blame then blame the high school system, not IITs. SC/STs
are generally the bottomers of the class and a lot of SC/STs come from rich
families, where they change their surname to masquarade as SC/STs just to
get in easy. If someone is held back there is possibly a 95% probability that the student is an SC/ST (15%+7.5%)who comprise only 22.5% of the total student body.

Are there smart SC/ST quota students? Absolutely. Depending on their performance (total score in JEE) they may not be required to take their 0 year preparatory course. Only the bottmers who flunk badly in JEE are required to take it.

You need the best faculty to teach at the high level of competence. There are profs who got in thru' quotas and they are pathetic.

From the affiliation of the news source isn't it obvious that all these allegations are BS?
-Sandip


Dalits at the Indian Institutes of Technology
-- Dalit Media Network, Chennai

http://www.pucl.org/rep...ational/2001/dalits.htm
Ajay
Troy, usa
Apr 18, 2006 12:00 AM
70
Sanghamitra writes: "What a loser. You are trying to justify incompetence with lack of need." "you need something to think with. its called a brain."

Let's not get personal and let's argue the issue at hand. The fact that you are getting personal shows you have no logical arguments to put through. At best your logic is as pedestrain as "ek paanch ke baraabar hai"

I again repeat that Indian companies do not need to cater to a foreign market. With foreign companies trying to gain a foothold in India to tap the huge market, why should an Indian enterprise go out when it leverage on its strengths here.

People like Amartya Sen are basically commies who are unable to digest the fact that India is moving towards a capitalist economy as against the Socialism that they have learnt and have taught and believed all their lives. Hence, they would be the first to rush in decry and underplay whatever little achievements we have. Between Sen and Narayana Murthy, I would rather believe and follow Murthy - at least he has done something for this country.

BScs and B.coms are hired because they are cheaper. But what is the work they are doing. So s/w development or application development. You dont hire nurses to perform surgery because they are cheaper. At best, a nurse can assist during surgery. The actual surgery is performed by the surgeon. Its the same with engineers and BScs or B.Coms.

And by evaluating the software sector to ITE Services, you are only displaying your ignorance. Not all people who work in software pick up the phone and speak in fake accents.

I guess you have not been reading newspaper reports with regards to the PSUs. I would suggest that you look into their balance sheets before talking about history. It is only in the past 5-10 years that they have made a name for themselves through some professional and prudent management.

Bajaj has been crying foul that there is no level playing ground for foreign entrants and Indian corporates. While the Govt rolled out the red carpet for the foreign corporates, they have not reduced the procedural impediments to the Indian corporates.
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Apr 18, 2006 12:00 AM
69
This is typical Outlook posturing. If they really mean what they say, they should hire five SC/ST trainee journalists every year, and publish the number of SC/ST staff who make it to their rolls. Let's see if they can put money where their feet is usually.

The article does not provide strong arguments to the points it raises. Most of the successful SC/ST people say that they needed money, not quota. So reservation is not the answer, financial support is.

About graduation rates, you have no idea what professors have to go through to get poor students off their classes (that includes general category students). Graduating means nothing, look at how many of the graduates get good jobs.

BTW, Harvard produces crappy research, none of the interesting ideas in any field has come from Harvard. It only has snoot value.
chandra
Portland, USA
Apr 18, 2006 12:00 AM
68
Those in favour of reservations haven't taken into account the fact that out of the number of people availing reservations, only a few are going to be brilliant. On the other hand, the number of people who are going to lose out because of reservations will have an average IQ that's more or less equal to that of the best among the quota guys. For one Sharad, we are effectively going to sacrifice ten Sharads.
Can our country afford such a wastage of intellect in the name of social justice?

Those citing affirmative action in universities like Harvard forget that only the best guys from less privileged communities are picked up for special treatment, unlike the reservation policy in India.

Vishwanath Rao
Bangalore, India
Apr 18, 2006 12:00 AM
67
Dear Editor,
I have no doubt that there are many individuals who have benefited from reservations - thus improving their lives as well as those around them. However the devil in the question on further reservations lies in details. Who is an OBC, and are all those listed castes truly discriminated against and oppressed? Does a reserved seat mean that one must simply 'show up' for admission?

I studied in an engineering college in MP and of the ~10 reserved category students who joined with me, only 1 managed to clear 1st year by the time I graduated. Several of the were so sorely let down by the education system that they entered engineering college unable to reliably multiply and divide. Reservations did nothing for any of these gentlemen or their families. Mr. Prakash Singh scored 90.44 percentile in GATE, clearly a capable individual for whom reservations made a difference, for my ex-colleagues, it was only a cruel joke. What answer does Mr. Arjun Singh have for this?
Sujay Naik
Gurgaon, India
Apr 18, 2006 12:00 AM
66
Sachar Committee's initial findings :


http://tinyurl.com/syqqh
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Apr 18, 2006 12:00 AM
65
Other news media (HT, TOI) should learn a lesson from Outlook India. Others never ever post readers comments, Outlook India - Thank you very much for a very good feedback section.
Ajay
Troy, usa
Apr 18, 2006 12:00 AM
64
Read what Vivek Kumar wrote (below)
1) let us say Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaisyas are not good with their ascribed professions

but we are not talking of brahmins being teachers, kshatriyas being warriors and Vaishyas being merchants, and Sudras the workers

We are talking about make it open to every one and whoever is good will take the job based on the merit

i do not understand that how can one fight against the concept of merit
and if the people who are talking of reservation feel that OBCs and others won't be able to get in certain positions without reservation then these people are admitting that OBCs/SCs/STs are not as good as the non-OBC/SC/STs.
The writer has portrayed a very negative picture of India (by saying that India has been a loser because of non-OBCs/SCs/STs). What is the underline - India has been looser nation through the ages, Shame on you Vivek Kumar of JNU




http://timesofindia.ind...de~of~merit~&~Mandal~II

Vivek Kumar wrote:

"The Dalits could ask the Brahmans if they were so meritorious why then half of the country's population is illiterate. If the Kshatriyas were so meritorious then why could they not defend our borders? The Shaka, Huns, Tartars, Mughals, Dutch, British etc. all defeated them and subjugated us. Similarly, if the Vaishyas were so meritorious then why is trade and commerce of India in shambles? In the same vein, if Arjuna of Mahabharata was so meritorious then why did Dronacharya demand Eklavya's thumb."


Ajay
Troy, usa
Apr 18, 2006 12:00 AM
63
NITS,
And country has already voted VP Singh out of power for bringing in the divisive forces of Mandal.

And why do you think that Lalit Bagai or someone who is anti-reservation has to be non-OBC/SC/ST.

My friend despised reservation for SCs and he is a SC Sikh.

Ajay
Troy, usa
Apr 18, 2006 12:00 AM
62
lalit bagai,
it is for backward castes to decide whther reservation is good for them or not. who are you to dictate the terms on their behalf.
if backwards feel reservation is bad for them, they will not vote for the party that propogates it.
when 76 % of the country's population is OBC?SC?ST, it is obvious that the terms will be dictated by them, especially in a democracy!
nits
nashville, USA
Apr 18, 2006 12:00 AM
61
Sangamitra

Talent is not based on where you come from. All
communities can produce talented people, given the right opportunities.

That is what is required. The right opportunities, and this means good schooling, and a stimulating environment.

Dont fight prejudice with prejudice, because you will lose out. The blacks in America cooperated with big business. The number of blacks in the corporate sector is very low still. There are lots more Indians in the top of industry in the USA, then blacks. Your prejudice against Indian industry shows your extreme ignorance.

India is doing well because of its brilliant managers, who are in demand every where.

You are not helping the cause of backwards by spouting venom. If backward classes wish to do well , then the least is to behave with good manners.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 18, 2006 12:00 AM
60
Nits

I dont think that sending low grade students to IIT,s will help them.

Natural talents of the students, whereever they come from is the most important element of sucess.There should be a match of talent and the quality of the university.

Dont you think so Mr Nits. That is why in England for example there is a system of chooseing the best students based on their scolastic record. Poor students can not be rewardede on the basis of caste. Commonsense.

Stop talking about caste all the time. Next you will demand that top positions in industry be
devided on caste basis. I dont think that Mr Tata, Ambani etc will agree with this. They will just move abroad.

India is doing well just because talent is being rewarded. However people like you are well come to get a badly qualified dalit doctor to operate on you next time, because this will serve the cause of social justice. I can assure you that we will all cheer your descision.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 18, 2006 12:00 AM
59
where is the love for the fellow hindus gone now?? i thought that RSS may release the following statement ..""the uppercaste should voluntarily state that they will occupy only 12 % of the seats and the rest should be availed by only OBC/SC/ST as this will go a long way in increasing the solidarity among hindus""
i didnt hear this till now...have you?
nits
nashville, USA
Apr 18, 2006 12:00 AM
58
The most intriguing thing for me amidst this whole debate is that we are discussing "backward" and "forward" castes.

To reserve or not to reserve is a weighty question, which merits weighty consideration, as witnessed by the appealing arguments from both sides. But surely in the 21st century, we can approach this subject with a different nomenclature!

Why can't this be an issue of reservations for "minority" castes? Because OBCs are 52% of the population. Why not "underpriveleged" castes? Because a big chunk of the OBCs are not.

In fact, such nomenclature analysis reveals the real reason these reservations are supposed to exist for. Not to provide opportunities to those fewer in numbers or have less money. It is to set right social injustice meted out in the past. So we are talking about reservations for "historically ignored" castes. If we agree to that, then the solution presents itself. We need reservations for the duration of one generation (e.g. one decade) to enable equal opportunities to historically ignored sections of society to come into the mainstream. Do we need reservations for ever? No, as evidenced by some of the reported stories where "beneficiaries" say that they don't need them for their children since they can now provide them opportunities. If you offer reservations for ever, it is ripe for abuse.
Srinivas
Toronto, Canada
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
57
Sanghmitra writes .... "Reservations should never be based on economic criteria else they will be grabbed by the so called 'upper castes'. It takes Rs 20 to forge an income certificate at the Tehsil office."

True and that is why my suggestion to have within reservations based on "economics", distribution of reservation based on upper-caste, OBC, SC/ST percentage in the population. That way the upper-castes who forge their income statements can fight within themselves. BTW, I suspect forging income certificates isn't the perogative of upper-castes only.

"You cannot forge your caste."

Don't be too sure. Indians, irrespective of caste or religion, have become experts at "work arounds" and some very creative ones at that.
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
56
I had a "Sahu" friend and I never even knew (and I think he did not either) that he is an OBC. He just worked hard and got admission in DCE, Delhi.
Ajay
Troy, usa
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
55
Mandal's other recommendations (are without controversies and implemented):

http://www.outlookindia...0414&fname=ssgill&sid=1


"the other important recommendations were: the radical alteration in production relations through progressive land reforms; special educational facilities to upgrade the cultural environment of the students, with special emphasis on vocational training; separate coaching facilities for students aspiring to enter technical and professional institutions; creation of adequate facilities for improving the skills of village artisans; subsidised loans for setting up small-scale industries; the setting up of a separate chain of financial and technical bodies to assist OBC entrepreneurs."

Reservation is just counter-productive and inhumane


Ajay
Troy, usa
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
54
Reservations should never be based on economic criteria else they will be grabbed by the so called 'upper castes'. It takes Rs 20 to forge an income certificate at the Tehsil office. You cannot forge your caste.

There is a difference in poverty of the Depressed classes and the 'upper castes'. Depressed classes are poor because they have been forced to remain poor by depriving them even the basic means of livlihood. If the upper castes are poor, its because of their laziness. Have you ever seen a bhramin or baniya begger?

""in my opinion the only means to address this issue is to banish reservations based on caste for not only they reinforce the caste hierarchy in the society they are also unfair and illogical"""

Reservations do not reinforce caste heirarchy. HINDUISM does. Reservations are not unfair and illogical. HINDUISM is.
sanghmitra
Mumbai, India
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
53
your cover story is indeed commendable as in all this hulla over the dalits and obc's not deserving the reservations you seem to have proven that there are people who need it and use it to the best of their abilities. but then in the same piece shows a common pattern among those who chose to use reservations for upliftment through education, most if not all of them were economically poor and backward. do you mean to suggest that only the sc/st/obc in the counry are poor ? are all the other higher castes capable of affording higher education at the ever escalating costs that they are offered in the country today? there are many poor and economically backward among the higher castes too who have a dream of educating themselves for a better tomorrow. who helps them out? not the governament who constantly reduces the seats for the higher castes by increasing reservations.
in my opinion the only means to address this issue is to banish reservations based on caste fro not only they reinforce the caste hierarchy in the society they are also unfair and illogical. what we need to day is monetary help to all the economically backward irrespective of caste creed and religion , reserve seats for them. subsidise education for themm , so that all those with money to spare do take up a part of the responsibility of the poor mans education. rest of the responsibility should be borne by the govt. through scholarships and subsidies not through reservations. the present move stinks of political oppotunism.
ameetbhuvan
bhubaneswar, India
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
52
for all ye "meritorious"??? ppl. visit the link below


http://economictimes.in...articleshow/1492461.cms

sanghmitra
Mumbai, India
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
51
Srini writes

“””Every government protects its economy against foreign competition - especially in the initial stages of development.””

Isnt this same as reservations. You saying that the Baniyas should continue to get reservations they have been getting for centuries, to make more money but not dalits.

Srini Writes

“””Why do they need (Indian Pvt sector) to cater to a foreign market, when they have a huge domestic market to cater too”””

What a loser. You are trying to justify incompetence with lack of need.

Srini Writes

“”Also, the success of the software industry clearly demonstrates the "merit" the private sector has.”””

Thank Thomas Babington Macaulay for teaching you English. Thank poverty. Software will move out of India (to china) for exactly the same reason it came to India, namely knowledge of English and Cheap labor, says Amartya Sen. What “merit” in software are you taking about. Recent news paper reports say that soft ware companies are stopping hiring from Engineering and MBA campuses and starting to recruit from Bsc, Bcom, colleges because they come at half the cost and can easily do the same work. This is enough proof of the low-tech nature of the job and that it doesn’t require much qualification.

Srini writes

“”But they (NTPC, ONGC, BHEL) have been making a name for themselves only in the past 5-10 years.””

That you were born late is no excuse for not knowing history. Nothing as changed in PSU management. Liberalization is generally a threat for them, not an opportunity.
sanghmitra
Mumbai, India
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
50
Srinivas writes

"And I dont think the consumer is complaining if he has to tilt the scooter 30 degrees to start it. ""

YOU DONT THINK!!!!. you need something to think with. its called a brain.
Ever wondered why Bajaj is crying foul since the time govt has liberalised the market. Its because the RESERVATION it got to protect against competition has ended. The Baniya now has to work more to earn the same

Srini writes

"So is the private sector (and all those industrial houses that you mentioned) making profits by fluke - just by flying on Auto Pilot? I would assume that some sort of brains are required to run businesses in this age of cut-throat competition."""

NOT brains,, you need bribes. To bribe the govt to increase import duty when faced with the threat of Imports. Not one computer manufacturer has survived since the govt zeroised the import duty on hardware. Forgot how all car manufacturers lobbied and bribed the BJP govt to get used car import duties to 200%. There new bloody cars cannot compete against japanese used car imports.

Not one indian product is worthy of selling on an international shelf. Thanks to all the meritorious!!! people. If you start counting how may patents and how many innovations are there in Indian names, You will have too many fingers. thanks to all meritorious people with 90% marks.
sanghmitra
Mumbai, India
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
49
Part II of II

"All these companies with all their so called meritorious!!! employees, still could not come up with a single innovation or patent worth its name till now."

If you compare the scooters that came out in the 1970s to the ones being sold now, the bikes that were there in 1980s (Rajdoot, Yezdi etc) to the ones that have come now, dont you see innovation? Innovation does not mean new inventions and patents. Innovation would mean meeting the customer's expectations - like a new vehicle design, a fuel efficient engine, a more safer vehicle etc etc.

"They have enjoyed 5 decades of protection against foreign competition, and help from government to develop themselves. (this is another form of reservation) They still have remained globally most backward. The reason is that they lack any kind of merit."

Every government protects its economy against foreign competition - especially in the initial stages of development. Why do they need to cater to a foreign market, when they have a huge domestic market to cater too (especially one that even the foreign players are eyeing). Also, the success of the software industry clearly demonstrates the "merit" the private sector has.

"The talent pool in private sector has stagnated because of their partisan and discriminatory hiring policies. Reservations will force these companies to hire from other communities and the talent pool will increase/Average merit will increase."

Same argument - pvt sectors are making good profits despite this "stagnated talent pools". the 90% vs 70% chappie argument etc etc.

"Look at Government owned companies like NTPC who have earned the reputation of building world-class turnkey projects across the world even with reservation policy"

NTPC, ONGC, BHEL are becoming world class companies because of the reducing interference of government in their operations. These companies have been in business for 40-50 years. But they have been making a name for themselves only in the past 5-10 years. The positive change is more due to liberalisation and professional management and not due to reservation.

"Reservations have to be forced down the throats of Indian pvt sector, just as reservations for Blacks was forced down the throats of companies like General Motors and Ford in America. (affirmative action)"

Wrong. AA policy says that when two people have been evaluated and have been found to be equal (based on the terms of evaluation) then the . So if an African American and a white are found to possess the same skills upon evaluation, preference is to be given to African American due to the social discrimination that his group suffered.

If a firm has the choice to hire between a Harvard Topper and say a UC topper, would it go more by the capabilities of the candidate or the colour of the skin?


"Private Coaching"

Who said SC/ST students cannot afford coaching? Access to coaching is more a function of finances than caste. There are many upper caste students also who cannot afford coaching. There is nothing wrong if a student wishes to increase his chances at success by opting for coaching.

Also, the government, perhaps, should open coaching centers for the SC/ST students and help them gain the right tools to perform better in evaluation tests rather than trying to sneak them through the back door at the expense of better performing candidates.

"They may get fewer marks but these less marks are equivalent to high marks got by pvt coaching."

Its like saying, Indian athletes do not have world class training facilities. Therefore the 100m they run is equivalent to the 200m run by American athletes.
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
48
Thus spake Sanghamitra Part I of II

Bear with me folks, but this rather long (and funny) rant by SM requires an equally long response.

"Reservations have benefited greatly because of addition to the talent pool of India."

One person gets 90% marks and another gets 75% marks. When the 75% chap gets a seat in engineering, just because of his caste and not because of his intellectual capability (as compared to the 90% chap), is there an addition to the talent pool of India?

"Our government is most inefficient and our pvt sector output is most substandard."

You got it right on the govt. But the pvt sector? The stake-holders in the pvt sector are laughing all the way to the bank and all the way back home too. Now, would that happen if the output is substandard?

"Rahul Bajaj's so called meritorious!!! Employees, for 30 years, could not produce single a scooter which could start without tilting it by 30 degrees."

Prior to this, scooters were imported from abroad. And also, at one point of time, there was a long waiting period of scooters (!!!). Bajaj has definitely revolutionised middle class transport through mass production of good quality of scooters. And I dont think the consumer is complaining if he has to tilt the scooter 30 degrees to start it. In this age of competition, the consumer would just walk across to another manufacturer. Bajaj continues to be the highest scooter seller and 2nd highest bike seller.

"There is NO SUCH THING CALLED MERIT while hiring in Indian pvt sector."

So is the private sector (and all those industrial houses that you mentioned) making profits by fluke - just by flying on Auto Pilot? I would assume that some sort of brains are required to run businesses in this age of cut-throat competition.
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
47
Most of the "haves" on this forum or in the broader debate have articulated affirmative action modelled around the US approach relative to the reservation model (continuation of the Indian approach). IMHO, the difference is the 2 models is - affirmative action is based on "motivating" the "haves" to proactively help levelling the playing field whereas reservation is based on "forcing" the "haves" to level the playing field.

One argument is that the inequities in Indian society are so deep rooted that "force" (hence reservation) is needed. The other argument is that use "affirmative action" (motivation) as it appears to have better results in US and improve the starting point - primary education. Even though, personally I don't like the idea of "force", in the Indian context I also believe force is needed for change. Where were all these "haves" who now argue improve this or that, and usually lay the blame at governments doorstep. They seem to only respond when the threat of reservation comes.

It also does appear that a slight modification of the reservation approach can be tried.

1. Reserve, say 50%, of seats for the "economically" depressed.

2. Within these 50% seats, reserve further by % of population of upper-caste vs OBC vs SC/ST (Dalits).

It should then meet the objective of reserving for "economic" reasons and also those with the double whammy of economic and caste reasons. It gets away from providing continued benefits to the creamy layer or those who have been boot strapped by reservation.

Tough to explain so might not have the "political" benefit of vote banks as well as might be a little more complex to implement BUT certainly possible.
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
46
Ok! The article only shows that reservations helped students from the pooer background. If indeed the case is that OBC/SC/ST s are poor therefor they deserve reservation. Why not reserve on the basis of income levels ? They we dont need to depend on the Goodwill of individual middleclass SC/SC/OBCs that their childern will not avail reservation (which i think is only for media consumption).

On a serious note, there are plenty of western universities scouting for talent and income form India ( I teach in one of them). I would now recomend to my department to look at CAT lists to get good candidates.
Anurag Banerjee
eastleigh, uk
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
45
I am Rahu Kamble from Sangli , Maharashtra. I did diploma , then BE ( university topper and gold medalist) and then M Tech from IIT Delhi and now Asst Executive Enginner in CPWD through IES exam. I am very much benefitted from reservation.In order to fulfill the basic of equal appourtunity of our constitution peoples need level playing ground and there are peoples who still need this level groung though reservation.At the same time ppl who raised themselves to such level should not seek for it.
Rahul Kamble
Srinagar, India
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
44
While the fight for reservations is correct given the fact that the legitimate rights of depressed classes have been denied by the so called upper castes for the last 5 decades, the depressed classes should also pay heed to what Babasaheb Ambedkar said about political safegaurds on the occasion of the grand conversion to Buddhism, 50 years ago and true his words were.


"33. We should not think of the present only. To forget what is eternally beneficial and to be satisfied with a temporary benefit is bound to lead us to perpetual suffering. Under these circumstances one must think of what is permanently beneficial for us. In my opinion, conversion is the only remedy for our emancipation. Nobody should hesitate even if the political safeguards are to be sacrificed for this purpose.

34. Wherever you may go, your political rights and safeguards will accompany you. I have no doubt about it. If you become Muslims, you will get the political rights as Muslims. If you become Christians, you will get your political rights as Christians. If you become Sikhs, you will have your political safeguards as Sikhs. The political rights are based on population.
The political safeguards of any society will increase with increase of its population. (This applies to Buddhists and Jains too.)

35. On the other hand, if we do not get converted to any other religion and continue to be Hindus, whether in that case, our rights will be safe is a question difficult to answer. This you must think over carefully. Suppose the Hindus make a law whereby ‘Untouchability’ is prohibited and its practice is made punishable. Then they tell you. ‘We have abolished
Untouchability by law. Now you are no longer Untouchables. At the most, you are simply poor and backward. But other castes are equally backward. We have not provided any political safeguards for all the backward communities. Then why should you be given such political safeguards? What will your reply be
to these questions?

36. The reply of the Muslims and the Christians will be very simple. They will say, “We have not been granted political safeguards and rights because we are poor, illiterate or backward, but because our religion is different, our society is different and so on. And so long as our religion is different from yours, we must get our share in the political power”. This will be
their appropriate reply. So long as you continue to be untouchables among the Hindus you cannot take this stand- that you are entitled to political safeguards because your society and your religion are altogether different. You will be able to take this stand on the day on which you liberate yourself from the serfdom of the Hindu religion and society.


37. Looking through this perspective, conversion becomes a path for strengthening the political safeguards, rather than hindrance. If you continue to be Hindu, you are sure to lose your political rights and safeguards. If you want to save them, renounce this religion. The political
safeguards will be safe and secure only by the change of religion.""- Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar
sanghmitra
Mumbai, India
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
43
While the fight for reservations is correct given the fact that the legitimate rights of depressed classes have been denied by the so called upper castes for the last 5 decades, the depressed classes should also pay heed to what Babasaheb Ambedkar said about political safegaurds on the occasion of the grand conversion to Buddhism, 50 years ago. How true his words were.


"33. We should not think of the present only. To forget what is eternally
beneficial and to be satisfied with a temporary benefit is bound to lead us
to perpetual suffering. Under these circumstances one must think of what is
permanently beneficial for us. In my opinion, conversion is the only remedy
for our emancipation. Nobody should hesitate even if the political
safeguards are to be sacrificed for this purpose.

34. Wherever you may go, your political rights and safeguards will accompany
you. I have no doubt about it. If you become Muslims, you will get the
political rights as Muslims. If you become Christians, you will get your
political rights as Christians. If you become Sikhs, you will have your
political safeguards as Sikhs. The political rights are based on population.
The political safeguards of any society will increase with increase of its
population. (This applies to Buddhists and Jains too.)

35. On the other hand, if we do not get converted to any other religion and
continue to be Hindus, whether in that case, our rights will be safe is a
question difficult to answer. This you must think over carefully. Suppose
the Hindus make a law whereby ‘Untouchability’ is prohibited and its
practice is made punishable. Then they tell you. ‘We have abolished
Untouchability by law. Now you are no longer Untouchables. At the most, you
are simply poor and backward. But other castes are equally backward. We have
not provided any political safeguards for all the backward communities. Then
why should you be given such political safeguards? What will your reply be
to these questions?

36. The reply of the Muslims and the Christians will be very simple. They
will say, “We have not been granted political safeguards and rights because
we are poor, illiterate or backward, but because our religion is different,
our society is different and so on. And so long as our religion is different
from yours, we must get our share in the political power”. This will be
their appropriate reply. So long as you continue to be untouchables among
the Hindus you cannot take this stand- that you are entitled to political
safeguards because your society and your religion are altogether different.
You will be able to take this stand on the day on which you liberate
yourself from the serfdom of the Hindu religion and society.

37. Looking through this perspective, conversion becomes a path for
strengthening the political safeguards, rather than hindrance. If you
continue to be Hindu, you are sure to lose your political rights and
safeguards. If you want to save them, renounce this religion. The political
safeguards will be safe and secure only by the change of religion.""- Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar
sanghmitra
Mumbai, India
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
42
There should be only maximum 2% reservation for Bhramins and Baniyas. ( in proportion to their population)

Its because these two have grabbed 90% of all positions, our country is suffereing.. What meritorious people!!!!!
sanghmitra
Mumbai, India
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
41
“It was not the ‘Blindfold’ that helped the Archer hit the ‘Fish’s Eye’, it was his ‘Dedication’ that did the trick.”
Rajneesh Batra
New Delhi, India
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
40
“No wonder that now onwards Fetus in mother’s womb keeps praying for nine months to born with ‘Steel Spoon’ rather than ‘Silver Spoon’ in order to lead his life more comfortably.”
Rajneesh Batra
New Delhi, India
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
39
Can Outlook do a survey on the Indian Media to determine the representation of SC / ST / OBCs in their organisations ?

Outlook can set an example for others by remooving Vinod Mehta as Editor and apointing a SC / ST / OBC in his place.

Is it too much to expect you to practice what you preach ?

shankar
Mumbai, India
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
38
People who availed of reservations saying that they do not want it for their children is touching and appropriate. But it would be naive to imagine that reservations, once introduced, can ever be taken away, irrespective of its merit.

In principle, there can be no quibble over reserving 50% of seats for segments that constitue 70% of the population. However, there is one small problem. It is the segments within this 70% that is least discriminated that most use the reservations, generation after generation.

50% reservations are fine, with two caveats:
1. One generation only. If you father or mother availed of reservations, you cannot.
2. Poor people first. It is disgusting to imagine that a poor person of upper caste is not discriminated against. There should be a Economics based quota that should be completely separate from caste. This should be done while still keeping the overall reservations below 50%.
vijay
Chennai, India
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
37
People who availed of reservations saying that they do not want it for their children is touching and appropriate. But it would be naive to imagine that reservations, once introduced, can ever be taken away, irrespective of its merit.

In principle, there can be no quibble over reserving 50% of seats for segments that constitue 70% of the population. However, there is one small problem. It is the segments within this 70% that is least discriminated that most use the reservations, generation after generation.

50% reservations are fine, with two caveats:
1. One generation only. If you father or mother availed of reservations, you cannot.
2. Poor people first. It is disgusting to imagine that a poor person of upper caste is not discriminated against. There should be a Economics based quota that should be completely separate from caste. This should be done while still keeping the overall reservations below 50%.
vijay
Chennai, India
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
36
Reservations have benefited greatly because of addition to the talent pool of India. Our country has progressed only in the last 50 years only because of reservations. Unmeritorious people ( read Upper caste) had brought doom on our country for centuries.

a. Unholy Bhramin-Baniya nexus has ruined our country. Our government is most inefficient and our pvt sector output is most substandard.


b. Baniya Bajaj Auto is the leader of crusade against reservations and says that it will kill merit. Rahul Bajaj's so called meritorious!!! Employees, for 30 years, could not produce single a scooter which could start without tilting it by 30 degrees.


c. Private sector opposes reservations because they are all family owned companies and love to hire from their own community completely disregarding merit. Their merit bogey against reservations is complete eyewash in order to hire their own. For example Kirloskar hires mostly bhramins, Kotak Group hires mostly Gujrathis, Birlas/Bajaj hire mostly marwadis, in top positions. 'Asian Paints' has an unwritten law against hiring SC/STs. Their first preference goes to their own communities. There is NO SUCH THING CALLED MERIT while hiring in Indian pvt sector.


d. All these companies with all their so called meritorious!!! employees, still could not come up with a single innovation or patent worth its name till now. Such is the substandard quality of Indian private sector.


e. They have enjoyed 5 decades of protection against foreign competition, and help from government to develop themselves. (this is another form of reservation) They still have remained globally most backward. The reason is that they lack any kind of merit.


f. Not even one Indian product produced by these so called meritorious people can compete globally.


g. This has happened because there have been no reservations. The talent pool in private sector has stagnated because of their partisan and discriminatory hiring policies. Reservations will force these companies to hire from other communities and the talent pool will increase/Average merit will increase.


h. Look at Government owned companies like NTPC who have earned the reputation of building world-class turnkey projects across the world even with reservation policy


i. Thus reservations benefit the Indian private sector. It increases the merit of the talent pool.


j. Reservations have to be forced down the throats of Indian pvt sector, just as reservations for Blacks was forced down the throats of companies like General Motors and Ford in America. (affirmative action)


k. You may say that IITians are meritorious people. Can you tell me the number of IITians who have cleared JEE without going to highly expensive coaching classes and nearly two years of guided preparation? hardly any ..


l. Thus the number of marks a person scores in an exam is not necessarily the function of his competence but is also heavily dependent upon private coaching classes


m. SC/ST students have no recourse to expensive private coaching. They may get fewer marks but these less marks are equivalent to high marks got by pvt coaching. Therefore it is alright if the marks criteria for admission into higher education colleges are relaxed for SC/ST. There is absolutely no difference in merit between the two. In fact SC/ST people are more meritorious. It is just a question of affording expensive pvt coaching
sanghmitra
Mumbai, India
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
35
Reservation does not devide people on caste lines

HINDUISM does
sanghmitra
Mumbai, India
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
34
I would be embarrassed and think less of myself if a day come when I will be considered under a special category deserve to get concessions because I am not capable of doing it based on my hard work alone.

Why do we don't understand that the reservations are divisive in nature.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE.
Ajay
Troy, usa
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
33
>>Quotas empowered them to take
>>on challenges.
>>Here's their side of the story

What a piece of typically Outlook puerile nonsense! How many years? How many such students? Would these obviously talented people not have been able to "take up challenges" without quotas? What bunkum and patronising juvenilia this piece was. Get together a bunch of class X students and they would discuss it more intelligently than this incoherent story written for playing to the galleries of bleeding hearts that Outlook assumes is its constituency. If the intent is actually to provide affirmative action, as it indeed ought to be, can we please get real first?
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
32
The article seems to justify a complex socio-economic issue in a country of 1 billion people by selective sampling of 5-6 students. When we already have a prejudice justifying an course of action by selective refernce won't be hard. To be fair there are some pros and cons about the whole issue listed in the beginning. It would have been worthwhile if the authors would have proceeded to do some analysis along those directions.
The point of contention is that reservations which are supposed to have lapsed in 1960s have even after extension by half a century have not been efficient in delivering their stated goal of socio-economic justice. The very proof being the recent talk of extension of quotas. A policy howsover inefficient will have a few genuine beneficiaries and that is not a justification for prepetrating for it, much less extending to hitherto untouched sectors.
The key point of similarity of all the profiled candidates are that they are from "poor and rural" background. These are economic barriers at best which besets candidates from all social strata. Did the reporters care to find out the economic profiles of the rest of the 99% candidates in the same institutions and find any singinficant correlation between caste and access to funds and educational tools? What is the percentage of the reserved candidates in the institutes who come from affluent families where in their parents and siblings have already utilised the reservation system? By personal experience, I have found the above correlation disproportionately high even among the so called dalits to justify extension to traditionally more affluent OBCs. One could easily follow a similar lopsided analysis by identifying the number of dalit/OBC students who are children of high ranking PSU, IAS, IPS and state government officials who are beneficiaries of the reservation largesse.
The other recurring theme in the analysis seems to be that reserved students don't show any greater propensity to "drop out". Again highly misleading and biased as hardly any one "fails" in the IIT/IIM system, the differntiator being the relative position in the graduating class. Did the authors find any significant statistical evidence supporting or repudiating their conclusions from the average performance of general and reserved candidates? What are the typical career choices of the reserved candidates after graduation? By personal experince I find that a significant number prefer to pursue avenues where they have a reservation advantage viz IIMs after IITs, Civil service or PSU jobs. To be fair this is a fairly rational decision on their part, one would be a fool in the cut throat competitive world not to exploit the last ounce of advantage one posesses be it caste, merit or simply wealth! But the very fact that this happens on a widespread basis is a failure of the social justice agenda of the reservation system. In effect we are undermining meritocracy to create a "wealthy oppressed" class.
No body be rich/poor, upper/lower caste, OBC/Dalit student relishes taking the IITJEE or IIM CAT or for that matter barriers of entry to greater socio-economic mobility. The fact that such barriers exist is to maintain the quality and standards of the said institutions. The aim should not be equal representation based on population percentages but making the barriers objective enough not to have any un-natuaral bias to a given set of populace. From that perspective a student from an affluent background from a metropolis with access to private coaching has probably a significantly more advantage compared to a poor student from a semi-urban or rural background irrespective of caste. A statistical analysis of number of IIT students from a handful of cities or rather from a select coaching institute will reveal the extent of such a bias and its wider ramifications. Unfortunately such pertinent matters will never see the light of the day due to entrenched vested interests.
sambit
chennai, india
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
31
Mr Ravikiran..
Nobody is arguing that candidates from ceratin communities are not talented. There will be talented candidates and dumb candidates in each and every community.
Our only argument is a dumb candidate from any community should not enter any insititution being a quota candidate.
If you think you are a meritorious candidate then why the hell you couldnt get a seat in IIT through open competion.(Did anybody stop you from competing in open category and get an Mtech seat in IIT...)
Narendra
Greenville, United States
Apr 17, 2006 12:00 AM
30
Excellent Article by Anuradha Raman. Kudos to the Columnist and Outlook for taking the heat out of the anti reservation campaign by the entire media.

Ms Raman, your true examples given in the article expose the myth that quota candidates do not have merit or that they are drop-outs. The officials of IIT have made this article even more authentic about the data of quota candidates..

It is high time the quota baiters stop opposing reservation or affirmative action for the greater good of the nation.

This is the true dedication to Dr Ambedkar, chief architect of Indian constitution, on his birth anniversary (14th April) by OUTLOOK.

OUTLOOK stands tall among the rest Caste biased magazines and newspapers..

Ravikiran Shinde,
One more successful SC candidate from IIT.
M.TECH(IIT Bombay, 1999)
Ravikiran Shinde
COlumbus, Ohio, United States
Apr 16, 2006 12:00 AM
29
Kudos to Anuradha Raman and the Outlook team for a cover story which was due for years now. You are the only mainstream publication which has shown the courage, time and again, to write stuff that your core readership, the English-speaking middle class, does not agree with.

Documenting the success stories of Dalit reservations is important because this is the first time in thousands of years that some Dalits are enjoying a life of dignity alongside upper castes, even as many others continue to face discrimination and atrocities. These are stories never told, and so many happily assume that reservations haven't benefited anyone. I have personally seen Dalit and even OBC families rise because of reservations. However, two questions of those against reservations remain:

1) Why should, then, a poor Brahmin not get reservations too? Why should reservations be caste based and not income-based? The answer to that is that the policy of reservations is not a poverty alleviation programme. Its sole purpose is to increase the representation and presence of deprived castes in Shining India. The idea of reservations has more to do with social diversity and integration than economic upliftement, which merely becomes a corollary.

2) Do caste-based reservations promote casteism and the consciousness of caste, and in that case, is that the India we want to build? I have personally seen - and this should be obvious to anyone who reads your cover story - that reservations actually rescue young individuals from the clutches of caste and community that they are born into and throws them into the modern economy. Reservations have the proven ability to unleash the potential of individuals otherwise condemned to the fate of the caste they were born in.

I have been writing a lot on the subject:

http://www.theotherindia.org/category/caste/
Shivam Vij
Delhi, India
Apr 16, 2006 12:00 AM
28
The solution is to provide many more new IIT,s etc. However its not a must to attend an IIT.
Many of us lesser humans from the upperclasses have been quite happy in studying in middleing
universities.

And amazeingly we are doing all right. Ask Lakshmi Mittal, Lord Paul and thousands of people who are now doing well, how they managed to do so without haveing studies in IITs.

Salman Khan is also one of them. And I doubt that he has much education at all.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 16, 2006 12:00 AM
27
This is the most illogical article I have ever read about reservation, and I am not saying it because the author favors reservations. There is ofcourse a good side to everything. The question is, does the good side more than balance the bad side of reservations system in its present form?

The author provides many case studies and arguments, but does not ponder a bit over the very obvious counter-arguments. It is okay that the people she showcased in her article got a better life due to reservation, but if Sharad got a life, there was surely another non-quota student who didn't because of Sharad. And in all likelihood, that student might have better grades than Sharad. So, who deserves it more?

She makes a case about the dropout rates among quota students not being very high, but her data comes only from top institutes like IIT's and IIM's, where the merit level is very high, even among quota students. If she looks for data from REC's and various state colleges, she will find the picture is very different. Most quota students in my state engineering college could not graduate in time. Some took 7 years, and their grades were pathetic. And most colleges are not much different.

We should stop looking at the class division in our country through the caste lens and use the economic criterion instead. So, the weaker section of society should constitute the people whose annual income is below a certain range and they should be given help in form of free access to education and some reservation. When you implement reservation through castes, the rich people belonging to these castes also reap the benefits which is totally unjustifies. Does a rich dalit deserves reservation more than a poor non-dalit? Why is this so difficult to understand for people like Anuradha Raman?
kunal
denver, usa
Apr 16, 2006 12:00 AM
26
Reservation is more harmful to the people who are supposed to reap fruits - OBCs/SCs/STs ad others.

Reservation crushes ones self esteem, motivation to excel. Reservation divides the people.

Ajay
Troy, usa
Apr 16, 2006 12:00 AM
25
After having read your article, I feel reservations should be justified only for the ECONOMICALLY weak and not on the basis of caste. Most of the people featured in your article complain of having a weak financial background. So instead of keeping caste discrimination alive through reservations based on caste alone, why not provide reservation for all economically weaker sections of society - especially to young men and women who show promise and work hard to raise themselves. That way no one will complain about reservations.
SC
Toronto, Canada
Apr 16, 2006 12:00 AM
24
Forget the reservations in Media? These people are the biggest hypocrites in our democracy. They shout in their magazines about the corruption of politicians and jump at every opportunity to get something from these very politicians. Have you seen what has happend to "India Today" ? Outlook is raising worthless issues to avoid getting into the deep of any sensitive issue which might anger their political friends. And for convenience, they make SEX and RAPE etc as their front page news. Their investigative journalism ends at the boundaries of cities or even if in interiors, they will hound the babas and small time touts. They will make them larger than life heros in their magazines, but nobody i the neighbourhood would have heard of these small thiefs.
But do they ever concentrate on any real issue?
Atul Kumar
Hyderabad, India
Apr 16, 2006 12:00 AM
23
RESERVATION IN UNIVERSITIES WILL NOT ENPOWER THE BACKWARDS, WHAT IS REQUIRED FOR COMPLETE ENPOWERMENT IS 50% OF SEATS IN PARLIAMENT AND 50%OF ALL JOBS IN MEDIA.LETS FIRST START WITH OUTLOOK ,TEMPORARILY THERE SHOULD BE A STATUS QUO ON THE POSITION OF EDITOR IN CHIEF
murali nair
mumbai, India
Apr 16, 2006 12:00 AM
22
Raj, you seem to be agreeing with NITS???? This man NITS is a terrorist and openly espouses violence and defending his terrorist brothers in his writings.

NITS and Raj, partners in crime?

So Raj do you want to be seen on the same platform as a known terrorist NITS?
Young Michael
Wonderville, United States
Apr 16, 2006 12:00 AM
21
TERRORIST 'NITS' WITH SOME GREAT PAST STATEMENTS THAT OPENLY GLORIFIED TERRORISM like 'Terrorists are left with no alternative but to hit back and kill innocent people'..NUTS who on another ocassion said 'I will fail brakes of Advani's rath so it falls in sea' and just recently said 'there will be a blood bath of upper classes when OBCs retaliate' has surfaced again. He now says:

>>>Well, with 76 % of population being OBC/SC/ST , whose nation is it anyway?

M.J.Akbar in his article in asian age says:

According to the 2001 census, Hindus constitute 80.5% of India’s population, Muslims 13.4%, Christians 2.3%, Sikhs 1.9%. Others make up the remaining two per cent. The minorities are not included in reservations, nor are the upper castes: between them, the minorities and the upper castes would add up to 40%. So in real terms, 60% per cent of India is being guaranteed 50% of the seats in the best educational institutions. Do the math.

M.J.Akbar in the same article says:

I have never been comfortable with minorityism. In fact, I have tended to anger Indian Muslims by asking them a difficult question: at what stage of their history did they become a minority? Were Muslims of North India a minority under Mughal rule two hundred years ago? Were the Muslims of Hyderabad a minority when the Nizam was in power sixty years ago? The answer is, no. In other words, a minority status is not a function of numbers; it is a function of empowerment. The Brahmin has a miniscule population and lives across all economic layers, but no Brahmin sees himself as a minority, because he is socially and politically empowered.

But a good idea has been perverted by excess. If half the students of a quality institution are there because of quotas rather than intellectual ability then they will affect the quality of the institution. Instead of the institution raising the standards of the students, students will lower the standards of the institution. The young are not unreasonable; the old do not have a monopoly on wisdom. Students have accepted existing levels of quotas because they too can see its limited need. But students will not allow politics to drag their schools into a swamp. Politicians can think no further than the next elections. The young have their whole lives to consider.

Caste is a fact, but is it a virtue? Government policy should seek to eliminate differences rather than consolidate them. And is caste the only statistic that the mighty government has? Is there no other definition of poverty?

Young Michael
Wonderville, United States
Apr 16, 2006 12:00 AM
20
Very few rationallty minded people oppose reservation when they are young, but faced against following things, they start thinking it as the biggest evil.
1> When someone like arjun singh,one amongst the worst of indian politicians, brings it up to get some vote without worrying about implications.
2> When we see the reservation student in our institutes and colleges not being able to understand at all anything, We actually feel pity of them. In PG courses, they keep on struggling with class 6th materials. I have not seem someone struggling with Nursery level materials while doing P.Hd., but it is not far away.
3> When an undeserving teacher is forced upon the good students and faced with their taunts, he starts running behind them with stones in hand. (A shockingly true story)
4> When we see most of reserve category students getting indulged in everything other than study in the insitutes. And when exam time comes, they are not able to understand the question at all, let alone answer it.

The right thing which people like arjun singh and sonia's coterie and her petticoat jamboori will never get to understand in quite simple. 12% people can not forcibly stop other 88% from power. The answer lies in brian power and no reservations are available there :-) And forget any right corrective action from the puppet Manmohan. He is worse than a mannequin in shop windows. Let Sonia and her chamacha gang bring up 1000000000000000000025% reservations, we will survive and survive we will very well. The only sad thing will be the sudden demise of the larger-than-life images of IITs and IIMs and AIIMS etc. So what, we will establish other institutes for which our esteemed backward classes spoilt braggs will start craving. The race will never stop and you will never win the dear backwards unless you are ready to discipline your life and learn the social behavior. Change yourself and we will be automatically defeated (Survival of the fittest, have your ever heard of this theory ???????????????)
Atul Kumar
Hyderabad, India
Apr 16, 2006 12:00 AM
19
So Sharad got a life. Good. What about all those people who did not get a life because Sharad got a life? Would Outlook be fair enough and write an article about this?

Nits asks "Well, with 76 % of population being OBC/SC/ST , whose nation is it anyway? "

I would say, rather rhetorically, that it is the nation of people who are willing to slog it out and make it a better place to live. Not a place of people who sit on their back-sides and keep cribbing about the atrocities that have been committed on their ancestors for the past 3000 years.

My professional career spans almost 12 years now. I do not remember the last time any interview where I was asked my caste - nor have I asked any person I have interviewed.

The oppurtunities out there are up for taking for people who are capable and can deliver. Instead of taking up the challenge and availing these opportunities, we have people threatening civil war (Kancha Illiah, the dalit activist, did this on NDTV), if they are not given equal oppurtinity.

There is also the complaint that many organisations are inundated with "higher caste" people. This only proves Darwin's theory of "Survival of the Fittest". A general category student knows that he should slog it butt off if he desires to get admission into any educational institute of repute, because he does not have the cushion of "reservation". This increases the intellectual standard of the students, which in turn manifests in their being hired by corporates. Thus we have people from "higher castes" who are relatively more successful.

Ironically, the efforts put in by the general category students seem to be working against them.
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Apr 16, 2006 12:00 AM
18
I think the politicians have thrown in a bucket of cold water in the crowd and now the conffused people(s) are running helter skelter wasting precious productive time writing long arguements which will be never heard to.
The best reply to such spineless politicians should be to ask for division of the states/nation such that the upper castesget their own homeland, the BCs another, SC their own and one more for ST.. Oh i forgot OBCs. Each one would be assured 100% reservation automatically and there wont be any room for cmplaint for atrocities from each other. But i wonder if we as irrational, religous and fanatic Indians can live that way independantly as we always need excuses for not being a part of civilised world! I have at least Ratan Tata on my side who can imagine the future of this once dream country where several adventurists wanted to make their homes. Today centuries later, the creamy layer is already packing their bags off and immigrating elesewhere in socially greener pastures and civilised world...

Nikhil
Pune, India
Apr 16, 2006 12:00 AM
17
before i forget, Gandhi was absolutely right in his opposition to separate electorate of 1932.

We already have enough division in our society, we do not need more because of vote politics.

Ajay
Troy, usa
Apr 16, 2006 12:00 AM
16
Reservation is and will be counter merti, progress and development

Students syudy and build a great knowledge base to get in IIT and other engineering institutes because the goal to get in IIT and other institutes is so difficult

I always ask my friends from IIT, that what makes IITs such a good institute, there is only one reason, the best and brightest students who study and study more get in the IITs and other engineering institutes.

I will study hard to get in a good institute and score over 90-95% but what happens when I know I can get in the same institute at 60-70%, I will study to get only 60-70%, what happens now, I did not build the basic fundamentals required.
Please do not make anyone believe that they are not good by giving them the crutches of reservation, they will never be able to walk forget run.

We need runners, and we can have them from every strata of society, they just need to believe in themselves,
Government should provide good Primary, Secondary eduction and not play with the vote bank politics,



Ajay
Troy, usa
Apr 16, 2006 12:00 AM
15
How about reserving 12% for Upper castes (based on the % of population) and declaring the rest as General (for everyone else). Add 8% of the creamy layer and make it 20%. Let 80% be for the rest under 'General'. After 15 years, skim off the new creamy layer from 'General' and add another 10% to the 20%. By 2050, India would be a 'developed' country.
Raj
Chicago, United States
Apr 16, 2006 12:00 AM
14
NITS, well said!
Raj
Chicago, United States
Apr 16, 2006 12:00 AM
13
"The question that one should be asking is not why reservations, but how do we go about building a just and equitable society."
- Thank you Anil Gupta.
That is what should be the clear definition of the country's group goal. The problem is, the "higher caste" is yet to accept it as a group goal for the country. Till they accept it as a group goal, we would be fighting among ourselves to accomplish our individual caste based goals.

Secondly, 12% upper caste enjoying 80% of the country's best fruits do not give the society a stamp of quality. India as a country would be successful only when at least 50% of the society enjoy the best fruits of the society in terms of jobs, money, education, status, power, quality of life, etc.
Raj
Chicago, United States
Apr 16, 2006 12:00 AM
12
I don't get the point of your article. Agreed reservations helped some of the underprivileged make it to big institutions and changed life. Now is there is a procedure/law which forbids people who made it to these institutions from availing the reservations again for their sons? If they are availing they are snatching an opportunity that one more underprivileged person could have used.

What makes you assume that there may not be a son of an upper caste idly seller who might have scored better than the guy mentioned in your article but is deprived of a seat because of reservations?

While you did make out a case for removing creamy layer for reservations a major portion of your story seems to have been prejudiced towards reservation. The photo clippings, the quotes all substantiate your premeditatedness. Why don't you look for those not making it because the reservations deprieved them a seat? Do this for the sake of unbiased journalism, if not for anything else.
Srinivas
Lucknow, iNDIA
Apr 16, 2006 12:00 AM
11
OBC-52% ;;; upper caste=12 %.
no wonder. this is democracy. there ain't much benefit for the politicos to support upper castes, is it? for even BJP has issued no protest against this idiocy.
someone in one of the related forums wrote, this is a blow to our nation. Well, with 76 % of population being OBC/SC/ST , whose nation is it anyway?
nits
nashville, USA
Apr 16, 2006 12:00 AM
10
A dose of reservation can have the desired effect as shown by this article. However, the article is totally skewed and has failed to report some very relevant statistics reported on Outlook's web-site in other article - past studies show that more than 50% of reserved seats in IITs remain vacant because students don't get even minimum marks in the entrance exams. Also 25% of reserved students can't make it even in 6 years. The examples shown in this article clearly prove one point - the brand name of IIT is so great that anybody who makes it, is assured of great career. Now these very success stories will not be repeated in future if the impression to the rest of the world goes out that half of the IIT degrees are not awarded based on merit but on castes! Clearly if you have 50% reservations and if you want to really full all these seats, the minimum marks required in the entrance examination will have to come down and eventually the standards for passing will have to be lowered. The direct result will be that students like Sharad and others mentioned in this article will definitely not be able to make it. Such a high degree of reservation will directly hit the reputation of IITs and IIMs and the sufferers will be the reserved categories of SCs and STs which really need reservations.
Another important thing to note - this measure is coming simply because majority of voters are from OBCs but the thing is that should only majority decide issues of national importance and no consideration should be given to merit? Clearly there is a section of OBCs that realizes the danger of such policies. If this trend continues then there is no doubt that India will slowly head for break-up. Reservations at this level and in private sector are clearly against the letter and spirit of constitution of India as was originally drafted 50 years ago. Petty politicians are exploititng the already divided society for very short term gains. Eventually the mess-up will go out of control and will pave the way for breaking-up of the country........I exhort all OBCs to give due attention to long term ramification of this exercise and if they really think they need reservations, they should identify the very genuine groups among OBCs (certainly not the landed and rich classes like Jats/Gujjars and Yadavs of northern India!)and keep the percentage at a minimum so that the brand name of IITs and IIMs dont suffer a damage. Also in the same note, those SCs and STs who have taken the advantage of reservation once should publicly declare that they will not avail of it in future and give more opportunity to their poor brothers. Have the long term objective of doing away with castes .....unfortunately we Indians have failed to come up with a smart way of integrating all castes...instead we have produced leaders which are stupid and selfish.......
Chaupat Lal
Washington, United States
Apr 16, 2006 12:00 AM
9
Getting in IIT/IIM changes *everyone* candidates life. I have friends (yes, upper caste friends) who travelled to Hyderabad by train to write the IIT entrance exam and slep on the Nampally railway station on the night between the exams!

Why don't you interview other 'upper caste' students who have made it to IIT/IIM and find a candidate whose life hasn't been significantly changed because of the experience?

Prashanth
sf, wefw
Apr 15, 2006 12:00 AM
8
That's a good take Ajay. I think there should be this sentence included at the end of every application form that is used by these quota people...

"By applying in the reserved category I admit that I am not good enough to compete in the open category" YES / NO

Only after chosing the option 'Yes' from the above sentence shud the application be processed. Atleast at this point the applicant shud feel what it's like to take advantage of the reservations when he is not smart enuf to compete openly.

Perian,
I'm bemused. You are sayin " Reservation should be given for educationally backward castes, and not economically backward castes." Does it mean that reservation shud be given to those people who have money but not brains (educationally backward), rather than to the people who have brains but not money (economically backward)???

Categorizing an individual based on caste/creed/religion in an academic institution (or where ever) itself is a shame on human society.
Mulla Chaddi Virgin Mary
Heaven, Utopia
Apr 15, 2006 12:00 AM
7
I was a pessimist about governance but the reservation move has turned me into an optimist....
I beleive it can go worse further!!!
Samarth
Delhi, India
Apr 15, 2006 12:00 AM
6
Reservation is wrong for every one:
I was contacted by somepeople in Ann Arbor, Michigan, they wanted to fight for affirmative action (reservation) for Asians in US universities, they wanted me to go to this get together where future actions had to be decided.

My stand was simple, why would I or other Asians feel that they are not good enough to compete in open competition, why do we need crutches, with crutches we will never be the best, where is the motivation to study harder, be the best if you know that you will achieve because of reservation

Same analysis apply for OBC (or for that matter SC?ST) reservations in India. I knew of a Sikh SC (back in late 80s) who refused to apply in SC quota, he used to write on admission Forms - SC but want to be considered in General category only.

He told me that if I admit that I need help than I am admitting that I am not good, I need to be honest to myself,

I think OBCs, SC and STs need to ask the same question, how painful it is to accept that you are not good enough for the fair competition.

Ajay
Troy, usa
Apr 15, 2006 12:00 AM
5
Dose outlook try to diffrent for sake of it?
rahul
harrison, United States
Apr 15, 2006 12:00 AM
4
No conclusion can be made , for or against reservation, after reading this article.

Nevertheless it seems clear thet the OBCs, are not a deprived lot. They have land and money and
are savvy in politics. Why they are ruleing the
roost in many states.

In any case the solution which could make this debate unnecessary is that educational institutes should be increase by 200 % or more.
Its absurd that a laudable effort to provide social equality, ends up in reduceing the
possibilities of middleclass kids to also get a better education.

It seems that the bird brained politicians of india can do nothing right without shooting themselves in the foot. Unfortunately this time
the foot belongs to the parents and kids of the
middleclasses, who seem to have provoked much resentment of late.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 15, 2006 12:00 AM
3
Mr.mehta has come up with another cover story defending 'saint sonia' and mr.arjun 'mandal'singh.Why not OUTLOOK publish the list of its employees and their castes and let the world know about the 'oppurtunity for all' principle it proudly preaches.Infact,mr.mehta should take the lead and provide 100% reservations for backwards in OUTLOOK group.Why only engineers and doctors,we want to see some 'dalit winners 'in journalism also.......
anurag
delhi, india
Apr 15, 2006 12:00 AM
2
Gounder community in south India (western tamil Nadu) may be having land and also some political power . But it doesn't means that they are equal to upper castes because majority are not educated . it is very difficult for a student from that rural agrarian (generally)community to make up to the high levels in academics. First of all, these students have to stand against and fight the surrounding illiterate environment to climb the ladder. it is the most painful one for these people. Reservation should be given for educationally backward castes, and not economically backward castes. That will be the real justice.
perian
chennai, india
Apr 15, 2006 12:00 AM
1
Why should the creamy layer be allowed its share? Let them voluntarily step aside and let their realtively unprivileged ones only take the benefit? Kitni pushton tak sambhalenge reserved seats ko?
Harsh Rai Puri
Bhopal, India
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