www.outlookindia.com | Populism As Policy

Free Speech

Populism As Policy

Are there no reservations against reservation anymore, cutting across party-lines among any of our politicians? The Prime Minister would do well to heed the comments of the member-convenor of his National Knowledge Commission.

Outlook Web Bureau

PRINT	SHARE	COMMENTS

Also In This Story

Full Text

'It Is Easy To Lapse Into Populism...'

'...or elitism and pursue policies that may have sectional appeal in the short run, but are harmful to a nation in the long run.' So spake the PM at the Harvard Alumni meeting on March 25, where he spoke of the challenge 'to arrive at a golden mean, which makes both excellence and equity walk hand-in-hand together.'

Manmohan Singh

So you thought former HRD minister Murli Manohar Joshi was bad? Well, consider this: Sri Arjun Singh seems hell-bent on proving that when it comes to cynical exploitation of populist measures, he is by far the first among equals.

Take the latest controversy over the "new policy" that would take the overall reservation in the central government-funded higher education institutions -- including IITs and IIMs -- from the current 22.5 (for SC and ST students) to 49.5 per cent in all, with an extra 27 per cent for the OBCs

Sri Arjun Singh, since he makes such a production of playing by the letter of the law, first kicked it off by publicly stating that his ministry would announce the decision after the completion of the assembly polls in five states. So why bring it up now? The party nominally considered the principal opposition seemed to provide an answer: "What the Congress-led government is doing is a mere political stunt, a fraud on the poor people by selectively leaking the proposal when there are elections in five states".

Now that maybe as clear as day, but more interesting was the phrase that prefixed the above quote from the BJP: "We are pro-reservationists". Which is why they were happy to acquiesce when the 104th amendment to the Constitution was passed in the winter session of Parliament so easily in a rare show of consensus in the UPA rule. Apart from token, confused murmurs, no body, least of all the not-so-principled politicos of the non-so-principal opposition party, paused to ponder then what a "big fraud" was being perpetrated in the wake of the Inamdar judgement. To be fair, though, the said amendment that the minister invokes in his defence, makes no mention of OBCs but merely empowers the state to make "any special provision by law, for the advancement of any socially and educationally backward classes of citizens or for SC/STs" in admissions to educational institutions, whether aided or unaided". It is clear that Sri Arjun Singh was happily engaged in his electoral propaganda with nary a thought to the repercussions of such statements.

And all this at a time when the IITs and IIMs are already suffering and suffocating under an HRD ministry that ironically somehow always seems to be headed by those who could do with some human resource development themselves. The various arguments for quotas versus merit have been repeated so many times before that they hardly need any repetition, but what is most bizarre is that the current controversy should have erupted when such eminently sane and articulate advice as that from the member-convenor of the high-profile National Knowledge Commission (NKC), which reports directly to the prime minister, is available.

It is heartening therefore to read about the exchange of mails among the NKC members, beginning with the e-mail from Pratap Bhanu Mehta which, terming the Arjun Singh pronouncement as a "distressing development" exhorted all members to protest the proposals: "These is no point having the Commission if we don't take a stand on this issue."

Mehta's email went on to point out that "IITs are already facing severe faculty shortages, and to simply increase the number of seats will have serious adverse consequences. It shows the extent to which these institutions are being subjected to the ministry's own political and intellectual predilections."

Mehta then listed three main points to protest to the PM: "First, the new proposals are incompatible with promoting excellence and autonomy. Second, the access to education should be distributed widely across social groups, but 49 pc reserved seats is a step in the wrong direction. At the moment, measures are in place for SCs/STs and these should not be supplemented by reservation for OBCs. This is an opportunity to think afresh on this issue and not rush into introducing measures that we know are irreversible."

The e-mail acknowledged that "there is probably more a consensus on SC/ST reservation, but reservations for OBCs have very little justification: indeed it is in some ways hurting the cause of SC/STs. But the idea that 49 pc of seats must come under reserved categories is surely alarming." In a separate article in the Indian Express, Mehta expounded on the above to point out that the founding fathers of the Constitution recognised that the claims of the OBCs all kinds of other groups are not the same as those of SC/STs, whose consideration at the time of Independence was so appalling that they deserved special consideration. "It is a widely known fact that many OBCs are now akin to what used to be dominant castes ... OBC atrocities on Dalits are no less significant. It is a travesty of justice to contrive special measures to reinforce OBC dominance."

Mehta has summed up the contours of the current debate so succinctly and well that it would be best to link to the full article in the Indian Express: The Seats of Power

Also See: What others say, including reactions from Arjun Singh

PRINT	SHARE	COMMENTS

Also In This Story

Full Text

'It Is Easy To Lapse Into Populism...'

Manmohan Singh

Filed In Topics: Quota- Reservations, Outlook Web Bureau

More In: National, Opinion

Daily Mail

COLLAPSE COMMENTS :

HAVE YOUR SAY

Feb 02, 2007 12:00 AM 102	suddenly the politicians are too keen to put reservation in pvt organisation .their honesty can be observed simply by the women reservation bill not finding any takers at the parliament. Mr Singh should first put an effort in passing the women reservation bill. neeti chaturvedi indore, India
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM 101	Sub: Quota in educational Institutions in India. Government of the people, for the people and by the people is called Democracy, which needs mandate from the people and to garner votes, concessions are offered in several forms as frequently as possible, depending upon the situation. Presently, quota in educational institutions for people born in certain caste categories is the concession offered. It started with the jobs in employment in central and state government setups. Now, in the educational institutions to be followed with jobs in private companies. The government is spending billions of rupees from the taxes collected in subsidies like power, public distribution system, cooking gas and what more. Why the ruling authorities never thought of bringing these designated categories by offering free education/ tuition/ books etc as long as they want, and make them on par with others by proper motivation and all round assistance instead of suppressing the other category called forward. In one of the states, one fine morning, land reforms act came in force, throwing out thousand of middle class people on the road. They had to run away from the state for their lively hood. Overnight, the tenants became affluent. Does such affluent categories need reservation because they are born in a particular caste? There are millions of people in the so called forward community in total poverty and what sin have they done to be deprived of their education, resulting in the denial of their progress in life? Ironically, most of the political parties are in agreement for this quota scheme, lest it will affect their votes now or later. Pity the only affected persons are agitating. Fasting, Dharna, Bandhs, suicides and patients dying etc will not soften the attitude of the government by the people now. Unfortunately, the persons who are agitating are not in numbers like nationalized banks. It is heard that the seats in General category will be increased and it is an ambiguous statement. The agitators can now make a pleading to the authorities to effect the quota system in stages in relation to the viability of the increase in seats in educational institutions. Splitting people on caste/creed/religion is not to be called secularism. I might have been the victim of land reforms act and similarly, my children could not have got admission for want of that extra mark and also had to reconcile the junior person becoming senior in profession, but at this stage and age it is a futile exercise to remember the moments of truth when you don't have the strength and means to fight. sundar chennai, india
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM 100	I have seen a movie where the villain keeps talking about establishing equality. Since the poor cannot be made rich, rob the rich and make every one poor and equal. That was satire. But that applies very aptly to the ongoing frenzy shown by politicians to indulge in cheap politics and brand them as affirmative action. For whatever my intelligence is worth, I am not able to make out how a few thousand stundents belonging to the so called OBCs will change the life of their lot. What is the affirmative action for people proposed by the govt. for the so called forward castes when they are unable to meet the cost of one good meals per day? Forward in terms of caste means they can sustain and endure hunger? The solution to teach the politician sqoundrels is a) Reservation in the Central and State Ministries and legislatures. b) A couple of big industrial houses relocating themselves in some other country along with their staff and capital. I don't blame the Backward classes in the matter as the truly backwards cannot comprehend the issue and those who are supporting neither need reservation nor are they truly backward. Infact, too many of us are backward since we believe that Sony has "SACRIFICED". Hope to see someone like Bajaj or Narayanamurthy announcing the winding up of their efforts here. ramesh hyderabad, India
May 17, 2006 12:00 AM 99	i know that reservation hurts. It hurts bad when you are in the receiving end. The upper caste people have dominated the society for over 3000 years and hurt the lower caste. They had no one to go to, not even their own brother would support him for fear of oppression. Dear uppercaste friends plz check the Indian history and let me know what happened to the lower caste people for over 3000 years. You hurt them in every walks of life. And when you are paid back in the same coin why the hue and cry. You say the quality of education will come down if students are selected with low grades. Whats going to happen. You say quality of doctors is going to go down. It cannot go worse than what it is today. You are sworn to take care of the sick and the needy and you are out there protesting against the reservation forcing many a poor people to hardships. Now this is what is called bad doctors. I would like to go on but I have patients to take care right away so will continue in my next comment. Selvakumar Coimbatore, Iraq
Apr 14, 2006 12:00 AM 98	Ravikant Reading posting of a few days ago I read your view that society must provide equality otherwise one can expect trouble. Now tell me what have the policies of your blood brothers achieved in Bengal, Bihar annd UP. Next look up to Gujerat, Himachal Pradesh and Uttaranchal , Punjab and Haryana. All doing much better. All these states are provideing jobs for the Biharis , Bangladeshis. I think you owe it us debaters on this forum to come up with an answer. That goes for Bhajanbhai and all people who support your views. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 14, 2006 12:00 AM 97	I might be pertinent to point out that the great seeker of knowledge BR Ambedkar (who's birth anniversary falls on Apr 14th) did not need Mandal Style laws in order to get into Columbia or the LSE. All he required was his own brilliant mind. As usual the Congress party for its own shameful vote-bank style reasons is making a pretence of providing justice. The right thing to do is to have one syllabus (for Maths, Science, English) all over India and the govt must see to it that each and every student has access to adequate resources. If the ramifications of Manu's laws are felt 2500 years down the line and ended up dividing society wont these laws also end up dividing society. And what happens to the child of a "Brahmin" father & an "OBC" mother or that of an "OBC" father & "Brahmin" mother ? Do these form another "caste" ? And Ramdasbhai, FYI I am an "OBC". Pi New Jersey, United States
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 96	The royal queens proclaiming, "Let 'em eat cake" may be good for some laughs. On the other hand, some sensible points are made by the secretary of the Mandal Commission : http://tinyurl.com/z99f9 Ghulam Y Faruki New York, United States
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 95	Lalitbhai: I quite understand you and even sympathise. Nobody likes giving up dominating positions in society. Nobody likes giving people of a completely alien religion and culture and even race, like us OBCs and Dalits and Tribals, power to run the country. The Muslims hated giving up power to the Mahrathas; the British hated giving it up to the follwers of your religion, Uppercasteism. Naturally you don't like us Hindus now increasingly taking over. So you will cry about "standards" declining just as the British did and indeed the Mughals did (I refer to the still quite common complaint of Ashraf Muslims in North India that standards of deportment, speech and conduct have declined since the crude Hindi-wallahs took over in Dilli). Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 94	Bhajanbhai I gave up religion when I was eight years old, when I refused a ritual bath in Haridwar. I told my mom, that the water was filthy. And after that I became a agnostic. Religion is the opium of the masses, but I do fancy going to a Hindu temple now and then. Just for the sing song, but this happens once every two years. I like going to churches, provide its a beautiful church, and its a wedding. I believe in the basic equality of all human, men and wome, I do not respect the whites for being better then the blacks. I respect performance, but on the other hand do not look down on people who are not star performers. I have friends who are car mechanics, deckmen, doctors, finance wizards and they are all the same to me. Basically we dont live so long on this planet. I wish we could live from day to day with just sound commonsense, fairplay, and try and help people as much as we can . Daily Telegraph, Calcutta had a report where both Budha and Basu accepted that they had made a lot of mistakes. They now are open to business with any one. As Deng said. It matters little if the cat is white or black, as long as it can catch mice. Now I think Deng was a wonderful man, the maker of China. He had nothing against millionires. Mao on the other hand ensured equal misery for all. It amazeing that despite these examples there are so many on this forum who keep on with their support for policies which will stop growth, and any chance for the hundreds of millions of Indians who need jobs. For the well off Indians, I would suggest that they head for Australia, New Zealand,Europe, USA . I think India is a very dicey case. And now with Iran and Pakistan being nuclear powers, a 3 % increase increase in population of some of our minorities, we can expect lots of problems. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 93	Lalitbhai: May I remind you that you belong to a minority religion and community in India, the Uppercasteists. India is maninly a Hindu country, and we Hindus have the right to decide how it shall be ruled, not you, a minority religion. India has been ruled by minority religions for centuries: the Uppercasteists, the Arab Brahmins (aka Muslims), the British, then the Uppercasteists again. But now the Hindu majority is fighting to get control of India. We cannot be kept out of its important institutions on the pretext of some arbitrary standard of"excellence" set by Uppercasteists. It's like the Arab Brahmins in the past keeping other communities down in the past by saying they did not speak Persian well enough. I believe our Hindus can reach a high standard in all educational insitutions. Due to Uppercasteist privileges, they may not be able to reach quite as high an educational standard as arbirarily set by the Uppercasteists - yet. But they can make good the gap in a few years. So reservation for us Hindus is the way forward. IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN WHETHER THE UPPERCASTEISTS LIKE IT OR NOT. THEY CAN LIKE IT - OR DROP DEAD. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 92	Bhajanbhai India as you suggest should train lots of people in various skills. The brightest for engineering etc, and the others a technicians, mason, plumbers, restaurant help, hair dressers. Your fixation on sending the Bhajanbahis of this world to the very top of IIT,s is absurd. Let them make it on merit, or choose the numerous other opportunities. Frankly I would prefer being a super chef then a nerd working for Wipro, or Infosys. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 91	Most of the writers of Outlook are definately the salt of the earth. Not haveing made it in any worthwhile manner, they have secured sinecures which permits them to irritate some of us readers with their naive, populist comments. However there seems also to be an endless supply of people crying about the various injustices of India,s society. To them I would say, if that is the way you feel, then leave India, and find yourself a little English village where you can consort with the old ladies for afternoon tea.India is a battle zone, and it does not require simpering moralistic pain in the butts. Your ideas are miles away from reality, and besides letting of steam of righteous indignation , I am damn sure you will achieve nothing. I am also concerned about the poor in India. But the way to help them is by doing something concrete. Help some poor but talented students to get ahead. Invest in talent. But if not , shut up. The people who have helped India are capitalists like Tata, Ambanis, Premji, Narayan Murthy etc. he bleeding hearts have not helped a bit. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 90	Lalitbhai, Vishwas: Now that I have realized that upper castes are NOT Hindus, but that they belong to a very different and viciously hostile religion called Uppercasteism, I am not worried about your attitudes. We real Hindus can expect only hostility and contempt from you Uppercasteists and Muslims. So be it.For so many centuries Indai has been ruined by Uppercasteist and islamic rule and pillage. Now the Hindus are coming into their own, led by intelligent people like Ambedkar. You Uppercasteists are used to being top dog and showing off, so you will yell and scream whenever your wretched crew are deprived of prtofitable positions, like IIM and IIT seats. So be it. We Hindus will not budge. We are the huge majority in India nad all leading political parties depend on our votes. All you Uppercasteists can do is sit indoors away from the sun and the dirty Hindu crowds during elections, aborting your female foetuses. We Hindus have lots of children, and are rapidly making you extinct demographically. So Congress led by intelligent chaps like arjun singh will come back with a thumping majority the next election. Even the BJP will support the real Hindus and the reservation policy; they can't afford to do otherwise. the next step? Easy. Since real Hindus are at least 80 per cent of what are today called "Hindus" (that is, Hindus plus followers of the Uppercasteist religion) the next step is to EXTEND reservation in all pub lic and private sector jobs as well as education. From 50 per cent to about 90 per cent. Uppercasteists will become the bottom of society in a few decades, as they ruthlessly have kept US at the bottom. we are applying your beloved CASTE SYSTEM AGAINST YOU UPPERCASTES. Tough!!!! Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 89	Bhajanbhai Do you think the brahmins are bothered about other brahmins. How about your OBC and dalit ikons. They have been in power for decades in the eastern states. Scams and corruption at the cost of their own people. Belonging to one caste or the other that does make people better or worse. You are obviously not a brahmin, but I can say with confidence that you are a thoroughly aweful person, and one who would not help any one. Stop whineing. You are makeing a spectacle of yourself. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 88	""IndiaStar Review of Books" is a Sanghi site." Faruki is a closet Mullah and supporter of Al Qaida brand of terrorism and Ummah. Sweeping generalisations are easy to make. shankar Mumbai, India
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 87	Lalit Bagai, and all our concerned Hindus. I very strongly recommend to all our concerned Hindus to read about one of our treacherous leftist historians and the lies she tells. http://www.indiastar.com/venkat1.html Raj Toronto, Canada
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 86	If it is a sanghi site that means there cannot be any truth in it???. Demonisation of the opponent, very easy technique Abhishek Abhishek Drolia Raipur, India
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 85	"IndiaStar Review of Books" is a Sanghi site. Ghulam Y Faruki New York, United States
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 84	Lalit Bagai, and all our concerned Hindus. I very strongly recommend to all our concerned Hindus to read about one of our treacherous leftist historians and the lies she tells. http://www.indiastar.com/venkat1.html Raj Toronto, Canada
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 83	Bhajanbhai You are a crashing boor. Go play with the hippoes. Be a good Hindu yourself, give away half your kingdom to the poor and desolate. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 82	Lalibhai, you are certainly right that wild animals are at least ONE BILLION times more useful to have on earth than the upper castes. I have finally found out and established something about you upper castes that has puzzled me for my whole life. Whenever I speak about how anguishing it is to be of an Indian background because of the frightening misery in which most Indians live, upper caste Hindus have almost invariably looked surprised and have told me: "Oh, they're alright. It's their karma to suffer. Besides they are just animals and don't feel pain as we do." In some cases these upper caste types frankly added: "They are mostly low caste, anyway. Not our type. Forget them." You tto say: "Forget them. I am happy in Denmark, where I am making plenty of money." You are a typical upper caste false Hindu. Sorry to be so frank. At a personal level you are friendly to me and that I appreciate. Now I know that yu are not a Hindu your attitudes will not worry me. Botswana is the best country for seeing masses of African game in an unspoilt state. I would advice you to take a trip to the Okavango area of Botswana. You will see elephants, hippos, antelopes of all kinds, buffalos, in thousands. Botswana is the only well run Black african country. You will hugely enjoy going there. Much better than South Africa, which in any case you can see on the way to Botswana. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 81	Arun: Don't confuse Hinduism with your fatalistic upper caste rubbish, designed to keep the rest of us lower castes down. As soon as I realise that the upper castes are NOT Hindus, I develop great confidence in Hinduism. There are many INVALUABLE ideas in Hinduism, especially the idea of absolute freedom of philosophical questioning, and accepting peoples of other faiths as EQUALS if they play by the rules of equality. So, no thanks, I am sticking strongly to Hinduism. But this is an utterly different Hinduism to any you know. Not one atom of Brahminical influence will I accept. Sanskrit is all right: But ruthlessly purged of ALL Brahmincal influences. Not one single atom of the Karma theory (Dr Ambedkar rejected Karma even in the Buddhist version). NO CASTE UNDER ANY PRETEXT!!!! But I also UTTERLY reject Islam, which is no more than an ideology of Arab imperialism. Arabs are the Brahmins of Islam. I reject most of Christianity as an unnecessary, non-Indian religion. We New Hindus will take from it what we need. This New Hinduism, based on the OBCs, Dalits and Tribals, accepts certain Hindu Gods only: Those like Krishna who are identified as lower caste in their associations. Rama is firmly rejected. It is an unsentimental and tough-minded religion. No nonsense about not eating cows. No nonsense about ahimsa: if we need to act to deal with dangerous phenomena like Islam and upper casteism, this will be done ruthlessly. Arun, it is good to know who one's enemies are. You and your like worship your upper caste, not Hinduism. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 80	Ravikant Poor in India have been poor for a miilenium. They are not about to start a revolution as yet. Imagine a revolution New Delhi, home of a civilisation which cant get the cows of the roads. Your ideas are absurd. However just try it yourself. Send a few thousand USD to some of the needy. Thats the best way to start. Bengal, is the state which tried best to introduce the social justice you favour. Its a basket case. Anyway I am afraid you are just impossible. Incidentally what do you do for a liveing. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 79	Ramdas from Uganda ... reading you, I would have thought your conclusion inexorably would be "hinduism must go NOT just that upper-caste hindus' hinduism is fake". As I have understood history, the earlier reform and movements - buddhism, jainism, sikhism had limited impact. Even Islam and the mix of christanity/british didn't have much impact except even these reforms in India in practice on the ground got permeated with "caste". So my view is that if the "present" upper-caste go (as you would like to see from your postings), some others will become the upper-caste. Doesn't seem to solve antyhing. Having said that "Hinduism must go" isn't realistic either - else it should have gone by now but also replacing it with yet another 'ism, especially of the religious kind is trading one set of ills for another (and many might argue possibly worse). Looks like boss .... it's a catch-22 - we are all stuck in this maya jaal and just have to find a way to exist. Arun Maheshwari Bangalore, India
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 78	Bhajanbhai Tirede of discussing the social problems of the hundreds of millions of poor people, I have sometimes thought it would be better to get involved in wild life. I am planning a trip to Sfrica. Which is the best place. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 77	Bhanjanbha People consider me a soft touch when I am visiting India. And that goes for all my family. However we all realise that we can not solve the problems of all th poor people in India. My attitude is to help those with whom I interact. Its not that I am not concerned about the poor elsewhere. However one has to draw a line somewhere. Unbridled emotionalism and maudlin sentiment dont help. Ultimately people have to help themselves. I agree that most are not in a position to do so. That life. Too bad. Do you feed the hippoes once in a while. Sweet creatures. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 76	The HRD minister’s unilateral & announcement on reservations for OBCs in premier educational institutions is not only a violation to model code of conduct but also sabotage to the attempts of the National Knowledge Commission for road map for affirmative action reforms in educational sectors. Again the action of HRD minister proves lack of coordination between the functionaries of the government & individual supremacy fight between ministers. The Congress party as a national party should be very careful in its policy making & should avoid the cheap ideas for making vote bank politics. Till now it has touched almost all vital & neutral organizations of the country including army (Muslim head count), Judiciary (Himachal governments suggestion on appointment of Judges based on their caste), private sectors (though GOM washed its hands off for its sensibility) & now the premier educational institutions. These are constant attacks against prosperity of our country for only political gains & never expected from a national party. Some people including the first citizen are of opinion that increasing number of seats in those institutions will solve the issue. But what is about the future standards of those institutions? We should not forget the naked fact that our global importance is not due our wealth or any political reasons but due to our superiority in knowledge thanks to those institutions (IITs, IIMs) which cater its all effort to the really deserving & merit students. The international communities always highly respect these institutions & this quota system will definitely raise questions in their ratings resulting defamation to country’s repute. This is also unfortunate that many political leaders are of opinion that in our country caste is a class. They should know the ground realities that at this age caste can never be a class unlike the social arrangements a century back. Besides the tribal people all other can be classified on the basis of financial capabilities. Poverty is such dieses which makes backward to the higher castes even Brahmins (That’s why BSP suprimo Mayabati included Brahmins in to its party). In a democratic country definitely the economically backward classes or tribal communities should be given ample opportunities to improve their conditions. For their educational improvement extra & special care or privileges should be given at their primary & secondary education levels. If necessary they can be provided expert coaching free of cost during under graduation level to increase their ability to compete on a level playing platform to get a seat in the premier educational institution on the basis of merit & after selection they could be provided necessary stipends. In fact students from the poor class or any oppressed community can not be ruled out that they do not have merit & thus need reservation. They really lack in availing the infrastructure in primary & secondary levels & of course due to financial compulsions. All these are unfortunately state subjects & the state governments never able to put any impact on it due to may be fund problems. Forget the infra structures our state government some times not able to pay salaries to the teachers in time. This is the area the HRD minister should look in to instead of doing cheap reservation provision which will neither help to the country, nor help to the beneficiaries. Biranchi Narayan Acharya. Cuttack, India
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 75	I am well acquainted with many Brahmins and other upper castes, and am perpetually astonished at their COMPLETE LACK OF FELLOW-FEELING FOR THE BULK OF THE HINDU POPULATION - I.E, DALITS, TRIBALS AND OBCs. They know the majority of those suffering extreme poverty in India are from these "inferior" and "dirty" groups, SO THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT THEIR SUFFERING. LOOK HOW UPPER CASTE FELLOWS SNEER WHEN THERE IS ANY CONCERN EXPRESSED ABOUT LACK OF SANITATION FACILITIES IN INDIA - A TERRIBLE PROBLEM FOR THE INDIAN POOR. If you upper castes have no human feeling for the vast bulk of Hindus, the conclusion follows inexorably: YOUR HINDUISM IS FAKE. YOU ARE NOT REAL HINDUS. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 74	Navdeep Hans, you of course are ignorant that Hitler and his Nazi cronies drew much of THEIR inspiration for a religiously-ordained unequal society from Brahminism. Himmler carried the Gita in his pocket everywhere. You upper castes are not real Hindus. How could you be if throughout history and today you have hated and ruthlessly oppressed the bulk of the HINDU population, made up of OBcs, Dalits and Tribals, treated us as lepers, jeer at us as "dirty", put endless blocks in the way of our every hope of advancement? India has been ruined historically thanks to upper caste and Muslim oppression. The upper castes are in truth MORE dangerous to Hinduism even than Muslims. They love upper caste oppression nad dominance, not Hinduism or India. If they leave India will heave a huge sigh of relief. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 73	Ramdas says "What India needs is a Hinduism ruthlessly purged of every trace of upper caste influence." Replace uppercaste with jewish and hinduisim & India with Germany and the statement resembles one of the many statements made by Hitler. Now at last we know from whom our Ramdas aka Sandhu aka Pannikkaran draws his inspiration from. Navdeep Hans Delhi, India
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 72	What India needs is a Hinduism ruthlessly purged of every trace of upper caste influence, and worshipping selected gods like Sri Krishna who was an OBC. If the Muslims and uppercastes had migrated to Pakistan in 1947, leaving India to the real Hindus, I think India would have been a far happier place. The upper castes are even MORE dangerous enemies of Hinduism than the Muslims. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 71	Bundy is right, of course, that there are serious differences between OBC parties and Dalit parties. That is why I have suggested the Hindu upper castes should form an alliance with them and with Muslims in a common jehadi front against the OBCs. How about that, eh, you twice-born fellows? Want to go arm in arm with Osama to protect IITs and IIMs and Sonny Boy's chances of going to Ammmmrikka. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 70	Bundy is right, of course, that there are serious differences between OBC parties and Dalit parties. That is why I have suggested the Hindu upper castes should form an alliance with them and with Muslims in a common jehadi front against the OBCs. How about that, eh, you twice-born fellows? Want to go arm in arm with Osama to protect IITs and IIMs and Sonny Boy's chances of going to Ammmmrikka. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 69	The upper castes raise a hue any cry as if a few thousand seats in IITs and IIMs going to OBCs will destroy India. Bullshit ! With thousand competing for a single seat, how can even the OBC reservation seats not demand high qualifications from those winning them? The real hue and cry is about something else, that the Brahmins and other upper castes will have reduced seats available to them, being replaced by OBCs. The upper castes don't care about "high standards" when it comes to corruption, or sanitation for the poor. When there are reports of atrocities against Dalits they do not rush to send responses, making it clear they could not care less. But "standards" in IIT colleges !! Oho oho oho !!!! THAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTT is COMMMMMMMMMMPLETELY DIFFFFFFEEERRRENT!!!! THAAAAAAAAT IS ALL ABOUT MY TWICE-BORN WHEAT-COMPLEXIONED BOYYYYYYY (I ABORTED 10 FEMALE FOETUSES ALEARDY) GOING TO AMMMMMMRRRIKKKKKAAA!!!!!!OHO OHO OHO !!!!!! Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 68	Laltbhai and Bundy, countries like India which have the misfortune to be cursed with Hindu upper caste types like you, unable to think that anyone below you in the caste order can be anything but dirt, are doomed to be tenth-rate. A tiny elite of "twice-born" punks arrogate all social privileges to themselves, practising 100 per cent reservation against everyone else. If anyone suggests that others outside the magic circle should be given a look in, this is regarded as the sky falling down and the end of all "excellence". And India is taken for granted as a world in itself; they never think of asking how people manage things elsewhere in the world, how the bulk of the population were given a chance in life elsewhere. The arguments of people like Bundy remind me of the British in the 1920s and 1930s, when Indians were trying to become eligible to join the officer corps of the Indian Army. The British claimed that any attempt to bring in Indians would dilute fatally the "excellence" and the "very high standards" of the Army, which only Sandhurst-trained British chaps with a military tradition could uphold. Bringing Indians in in large numbers would be fatal to the Army, Indians were told. Nehru at that time pointed out that during the First World War the Bristiah, French, Germans, Russians, etc, broke all these rules about maintaining "excellence" and yet their armies were far more effective. Not to mention the Soviets who created the Red Army from scaratch in a few months. Of course, during the Second world war the British themselves vastly expanded the Indian army and recruited large numbers of Indian officers, throwing to the winds all the elitist grabage about maintaining "standards". The Indian officers, needless to say, performed brilliantly. Bundy dismisses the arnalysis that his so-called "knowledge economy" ( I would call it the "Ignorant or Denial Economy") won't help the Indian masses as "bullshit". That's a tenth-rate argument, Bundy. Can we have some facts and figures, please? Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 67	To the bleeding hearts and the hypocrites Wealth and progress is made by a small elite which is naturally endowed. Look at the USA. Apple computers was foundd by Steve Jobs, and Microsoft by Bill Gates. In India progress is due to a small clan, who are resposible for building a soft ware export industry totalling 25 billion USD. Its rideculous that these people should be discouraged in the cause of social justice. See what happened to Bengal. All the bright guys left. In the days of globalisation talent will go where it is best rewarded. The bright guys will wander of to the USA. The USA attempted social justice, but it did not provide admissions for the dead beat in MIT and Harward. However its impossible argueing with these brain dead commies. They can not make it on their own, and are useing their numbers to get unfair advantages. In the end it will not help them , They will be marked for life as the second raters. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 66	>> "India belongs to the OBCs, Dalits and Tribals" Another interesting point I have noted is the tendency of the OBC groups to include the support of Dalits in their claims. Have they ever bothered to check if Dalits share these feelings, or if they feel that their more genuine grievances get diluted when clubbed with the more affluent, privileged and politically powerful OBCs? Intrestingly, at the political level, Dalits and OBCs seem to share strong antagonism. In UP, Mayawati is the undisputed Dalit leader, and Mulayam Singh Yadav, the most powerful OBC leader. They hate each other to no end. Similar scenario repeats in Bihar with Paswan and Laloo. Could it have been, if the social constituencies were so closely aligned? Al Bundy San Francisco, United States
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 65	>> "Why don't they howl and yell or even whimper a little about the Government's failure to build the many "good" engineering and other technical colleges the economy so badly needs?" Ramdas, Sorry, missed responding to this earlier. I don't know about Prakash Mehta and his motivations. However, there are a whole lot of commentators, who have been screaming for a long time for better ground level facilities for all students. Read Tavleen Singh's articles in IE if you get a chance. This is one of her pet subjects. The reason it doesn't happen is that it is much more difficult to implement. For lazy people like Arjun and V.P Singh, it is easy to pass a law providing reservations, rather than working towards building good schools and colleges. Guess no one shall deny that caste conciousness is a reality in India. From time to time we hear of ugly violence against Dalits, and most marriage ads mention the caste and sub-caste. However, such differences are reducing with urbanization. Does one know or care about the caste of the person who is standing next to you in a crowded bus or train, or one who last drank water/juice from the glass at the roadside vendor? If you ever get up to offer your seat to an elderley person, do you ask his/her caste? People who benefit from it (I guess that includes you), make every effort to keep it alive, so that they continue to receive benefits. If it is at the cost of people who actually deserve it, even if they are poor people of their own caste, they couldn't care less. Al Bundy San Francisco, United States
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 64	>> "The upper castes are only a small minority in India; they are going to be steadily and ruthlessly ousted in the coming few decades from ALL positions of power and profit. India belongs to the OBCs, Dalits and Tribals. Make no mistake." I would like to think that India belongs to all, including the upper castes. Also, while you may not like to hear this, since it negates your well entrenched prejudices that you are so fond of flaunting, lot of upper castes, particularly the younger generation, do not care about the castes of their fellow students, and often don't know it either. I don't want to make too sweeping a generatlization, since my first hand experience is limited to only the universities I attended. They happened to be "elitist", and I guess that most of the students there were upper castes. Most were certainly rich or middle/upper middle class, and if the co-relation about social and economic profile, that proponents of reservation keep harping on is true, then most would be upper castes too. I still don't know the castes of many of my friends, and lot of others don't either. >> "You upper castes are howling because the logic of caste is now being turned against you." Well, it can be easily said that the incompetent creamy layer of the OBCs is pushing for this, since they shall be able to grab all the benefits, and continue their dominance and lordship over the Dalits and the MBCs. It is easy to sit in front of the machine and type any junk. It takes effort to get into one of the good institutes, which, unfortunately, some people don't want to put in. In a democracy, every group has a right to put forth their views. The OBCs have a right to make themselves heard, just as the upper castes. If issues are ultimately decided by brute majority, and results in reservation (likely), so be it. I personally feel, that it shall be detrimental to India in the long run. As for benefits of such institutes, I think they are primarily responsible for giving India its current edge in a knowledge economy. Some people like to say that it hasn't helped real India, and I think that is a load of bull shit. You are free to disagree with this assessment though. Al Bundy San Francisco, United States
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 63	Lalit, I am not talking about social justice that should come by consensus. I am talking about the one that will come no matter what you think. If you divide what we have across the population, the inidividual share will be small. But if you dont, do you think the people who are not getting their share will just think 'thats life!' and continue? In that case why cant you accept the reservations as that is life. The operating principle should be either the majority prospers or no one does. I take your comparision with Ms Roy as a compliment. ravikant seattle, United States
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 62	Ravikant Here is the male verion of Arundhati Roy, Lots of hot air, and no sense of reality. Unless we get Jesus Christ , miracles like feeding the hungy and cureing the blind dont happen these days. Just try and devide the food India produces, the water that is available amongt the 800 million poor, and you will change your mind. And we are not talking about school, clinics and so forth. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 61	bhajanbhai I went to a middleing University in England and that did not stop me from being a great sucess as I have informed everyone. I would never have qualified getting into a first rate univesity, and I accept this. Why the hell cant OBC, and others do the sme as I did. I dislike the principle of getting something unless I deserve it. And the problems of plcaces can be solve by identifyeing 10 or more tier two schools in record time, and give them a large shot of resources. Leave the IIT,s alone. They are just one of the a few things that India can be proud of. Next you will ask for admission of your hippoes into MIT. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 60	Ravikant The numbers of the poor are going up fast. A poor country like India can do its best Its either a failed attemp at social justice like that tried in the Eastern states, or progress for the fittest, and a good life for say 40 % of the population. here is nothing odious in this. If the poor want progress then they have to control their numbers. Thats the very least. Why are Indians such suckers and namby pambies. Get to accept the hard facts of life. Number one lesson is survival of the fittest. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 59	Al Bundy: Why do the upper castes and other supposedly "disinterested India lovers" like Prakash Bhanu Mehta only kick up an unholy row when there is a suggestion that these so-called elitist "centres of excellence" wholly dominated by the upper castes should dilute their standards a little to bring in other castes? Why don't they howl and yell or even whimper a little about the Government's failure to build the many "good" engineering and other technical colleges the economy so badly needs? You are probably right that giving the OBCs more access to these elite institutions will not solve the problems of the vast majority. But it will at least break up the cosy upper caste club that these institutions are at present. To be brutally frank, if it is a matter of either the upper castes dominating these places and picking the plums or the OBCs doing so, the OBCs cannot be blamed for fighting for their side tooth and nail. The upper castes are only a small minority in India; they are going to be steadily and ruthlessly ousted in the coming few decades from ALL positions of power and profit. India belongs to the OBCs, Dalits and Tribals. Make no mistake. You upper castes are howling because the logic of caste is now being turned against you. Too bad. You are used to being top-dog and showing off. Well, that is now ending. Tough. And you have not had the guts to answer my main question: In what way do elitist Colleges hold the answer for bettering the condition of the Indian masses? Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 58	>> "India does not need these snobbish "centres of excellence", really. What it needs are many averagely good colleges that will turn out the tens of millions of reasonably competent engineers and other techinical staff India will need for its industrialisation." Actually, we need both, and there is no reason that both can't co-exist. Why should the level of an excellent institute be moderated to merely good, when it can and has been existing at an elite level? The quota debate obfuscates two issues. For one, institutes in India enjoy much lower level of autonomy than in other places. Premier ones have been relatively insulated so far, but as the dabbling of MM Joshi and Arjun Singh indicates, it is changing. The government, as the major financer, may feel that it has a right to do so, but is not good for the health of the Universities in the long run. Academic institutes can help themselves by raising more resources. Secondly, the quota debate has easily taken a forward-backward debate. That was probably the whole idea of Arjun Singh to begin with. Divide Hindus, so that his communal acts don't attract strong criticism. Lot of people on this boards know, but shall not admit, that the new quota shall not benefit the really needy. Most of the people who shall get in via quotas shall be average students with rich dads. The rich smart ones don't need quotas, and the poor smart ones shall likely not be able to make it due to lack of resources. There shall be exceptions, but few. A point often raised by proponents of reservation is that the social and economic profile has a strong co-relation, and hence, having a social criteria is same as having an economic one. If it is actually true (had heard it repeatedly during Mandal. Don't know if it was accurate then, and if it is true now), then why not have economic criteria? Al Bundy San Francisco, United States
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 57	These upper castes are hell-bentb on an economy which is "For the Minority, By the Minority, Of the Minority". They want to train super-excellent braminical "geniuses" who go off to America and are either never heard of again by the middle class Indian taxpayer who paid for their education, or set up businesses in India that typically do not increase the levels of employment of ordinary Indians. Thus a purely elitist "America-in-India" economy is created cutting out the vast mass of Indians but ruthlessly using up the natural resources that this mass has always depended on for survival: like water and wood. This is a very dangerously unequal type of development,leading the mass of poor with no option in the end but the naxalites. India does not need these snobbish "centres of excellence", really. What it needs are many averagely good colleges that will turn out the tens of millions of reasonably competent engineers and other techinical staff India will need for its industrialisation. All this chatter about India's functioning as a super-duper "talent pool" is purely elitist drivel. This elitist model of economy will soon blow up in the stupid faces of its worshippers. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 56	Lalitbhai, just because you have given up on the overwhelming majority of Indians doesn't mean they can afford to sit down and die or wait a billion billion incarnations while your fat "what-complexioned" upper caste crew are ruling the roost and showing off. You upper castes are sold on an inhumanly elitist vision of economic development because your religion tells you that most people outside your caste are just dirt on the ground. Just open your caste-blinded eyes and see how OTHER countries went about industrialising. Japan, Russia, Germany, the USA, in their industrialising phase, gave central importance to MASS training of millions of fairly competent enginneers and other technicians. They were not satisfied with producing a few tens of thousands of upper calss "geniuses", a large portion of whom went off abroad. That is the crazily elitist solution you want for India. So WHAT if the passing marks at IITs and IIMs decline a bit temporarily? Provided they turn out MANY more reasonably qualified people, that is better for the Indian economy than training a handful of brahminical geniuses whose fortunes are usually made abroad and do not put food into poor Indians' stomachs. You are living in an upper caste fantasy world. My hippoes are more beautiful and have more sense than upper caste Indians. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 55	Bhajanbhai I wonder whether the congressis will step in and stop rich kids from studying abroad. One can never be sure about these crazies. To Kumar. Do you think that rich and sucessful people have a innate duty to help the 800 million backwards. Of these there are 150 million muslims who are determined to go the wrong way, as is evident not just in India , but also in Pakistan and elsewhere. And after that they should help the people of Pakistan and Bangladesh too. And break relations with the west to please the leftists and M,s. Take a hike buddy, Even China has given up on these unrealistic dreams. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 54	What a lot of hysterical nonsense. Just because you upper castes are asked to let the lower castes have a part in what is going on, it doesn't mean the world is ending. Upper caste Hindus due to their utterly rotten caste mentality have a cussedly elitist way of looking at all social issues. As far as they are concerned, social issues are well taken care of if their "wheaten complexioned" upper caste carcases are comfortable. The rest of the Indians can go to hell. Or wait a million lifetimes for "gradual" improvement. Notice that no-one has told us what has been the result of the EXISTING reservation for SCs/STs in the IIMs and IITs. That would have given us a good clue as to the likely effects of reservation for the OBCs. Even with 50 per cent reservation for OBCs, 50 per cent is still left for the uppercastes to contest freely. Some of the present seats - let us guess 20 per cent - may already be held by OBCs in open competition. So in the caste-based seats, about the same proportion of OBCs will get the present passing level of marks. No doubt the upper castes will need now to get a higher level to pass. But the lowering of standards will only happen in about 30 per cent of seats. And OBCs do have brains; there are huge numbers of them. Many more may apply if they get the hope of a place. That will push UP standards of passing even in the reserved OBC seats. So I say again: what IS all the fuss about "falling standards" about? It can only be very limited and temporary at worst. India needs many millions of engineers; not a handful of Brahmin whizz kids scooting off to America. No-body used such elitist language in the USSR when it trained millions of engineers in the 1930s - people whoo built the Russian industrial might that won the Second World War. Quit frothing like jackasses, you upper castes. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 53	The rich and the talented have done well in India,because they are smart and savvy. What ever ASingh and the bandarsena does, they will continue to do well. Maybe they will settle in certain states where there are fewer minorities, and the governments are friendly towards them, The central government can only do so much to promote or retard progress. One example is East Africa. Ida Amin Dada and the others like him ejected Asians from there. The nett result is that Uganda has lots more hippoes and few engineers and doctors. Something like that will happen to India. Frankly I would advise any bright Indians to study and settle down abroad. Why fight for a pittance in a battle with thousands of backwards. Let them keep it all. India will slide to mediocraty but it has that comeing. Maybe Indians like the jews will be spectacularly sucessful in the West. Its better do do well in the USA rather then the constant gripeing and moaning with the secualr and leftist acadamics. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 52	Ravikant ... "Arun, the problem with what happened in india since independance is that the redistribution was a hoax. Did not happen." True it was hoax in that people bought (and many people genuinely believed) in the idea BUT there are sound human phsycology and economic reasons why re-distribution without growth CANNOT work. "Redistribution has to work with growth even if that means a marginal slow down in growth." Like I said that is the trick avoiding the slippery slope of "slowing down" growth. The Europeans and Americans achieved for their populations early on (at the time they were homogenous too), on the back of colonies (europeans) and native americans (americans), essentially by exploiting the other population (and their labour and resources). We uniquely I think exploited (and probably for the longest period) a large section of "our" own. Or, were they really "us", or as per one theory there really was this "us" and "them" due to aryans colonizing this landmass a very very long time ago. And unlike the Europeans who colonized a separate landmass and didn't become part of that or the Americans who decimated the natives to practically nothing, our colonial past was this organization into castes which as it turns out was a very covert, corrosive, deep rooted and longest running discrimination system which itself covertly ate into us, made us weak and colonizable and colonized by others. Full circle and still biting and eating our inards. Gotta pay for our sins right here. Oh well .... sorry don't where I am going with this!! Arun Maheshwari Bangalore, India
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 51	Ravikant You are in the wrong country. In USA you are expected to do well on your own. Thats the way it is in China, Russia and all the old communis countries. Most people who do well, do so because of their own efforts. And the wealth they create is not enough to pass on to the overwhelming numbers of poor. The system of redistribution you support has been tried and failed. Smarter people at the head of the older communists countries realise this. That you do not, is a peronal failure of knowledge and intelligence. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 50	Arun, the problem with what happened in india since independance is that the redistribution was a hoax. Did not happen. But, by nature a democracy gives power to the many. For the people who see today the widening gap, in education and oppurtunity, equality as a benefit of benevolent capitalism does not look promising. The imbalance and injustice is too high for patient long range solutions. Redistribution nhas to work with growth eve if that means a marginal slow down in growth. For the guy who has been wronged, the remedy has to me more instant. And so will be the pain on the class that holds all the cards today. On the short term, it is a zero sum game. We have to grow while respecting the aspirations of our people. Else, capitalism takes over democracy. Remember that democracy/capitalism isnt a resounding success its just that communism failed more spectacularly. You only have to look at the US to see the capitalism part of it taking over the democracy. In india the sooner the 80% realize that they are not getting their share, the more drastic the socio-economic change will be. And hopefully it will be peaceful as our democracy legitimately gives them the power. I agree with you that finding the balance is pivotal here. But I think that we are not moving fast enough towards social justice to maintain a just balance. ravikant seattle, United States
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 49	Abhishek .... Hard to say what will or not happen to specific institutes. I am sure game theory experts can have a field day but for folks like me the processes are too complex to hazard a guess. However, it is safe to say that on this issue it will be zero-sum game between "lower middle class/poor upper-caste" and "lower castes". The "middle middle class/upper middle class/rich upper castes" will find a way (as you say a flowing river does). And in all possible scenarios the one beneficiary will always be what is now-a-days termed as the creamy layer of the lower caste (most of them would be politicians and bureaucrats or their near and dear ones). No wonder this would be the preferred solution to the problem. In which case, at least I hope that our economically savvy PM (and supposedly good President) ask for a way to ensure the creamy layer doesn't just get creamier due to reservations. I say it but I not hopeful one because it's asking for too much and secondly I am always afraid the more rules in India means more things to break - so the creamy layer also like a river will find it's ways. This is when I get Hindu and Karmic and say ... "we get what we deserve" and find irony and humour in "karma reversed" (pay for the sins of our ancestors which we ourselve might have been in an earlier birth). Nikhil from Pune says ".... The Brahmadesh can be on the western part of India where a fairly large chunk of population is non-backward...". I assume west will include Pune :-). Safe to also assume west can't be Bangalore :-) Hope you have got permission from the RSS (I recall being told it's the birthplace of RSS) for the 2nd partition :-) Arun Maheshwari Bangalore, India
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 48	Ravikant .... the key learning from history is also to find the right balance between re-distribution and growth. Re-distribution without growth is the path we were on for a long time (and probably most socialist/communist countries) which didn't work. Growth with laizze-faire trickle down, possibly the path we are on today, will also not sustain but provides us the time and window of opportunity to find a better balance between growth and proactive trickle-down/re-distribution. My question has been given the very unjust and unequal architecture of our society (hence We The People) can we find the balance fast enough. My faith is in Democracy as a process (Catalytic Mechanism) will force the balancing since status-quo won't be the option given political re-balancing is far ahead of economic re-balancing. Arun Maheshwari Bangalore, India
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 47	80% population gets 80% oppurtunities. Fair deal. Democratic too. India ( as in its people ) needs equality more than immesurable wealth to the top 10%. We should not (and cannot) become act as a wealthy country as long as the 80% struggle. No matter what the hyper techies from the IITs and the mgmt gurus from IIMs and those benefitted by them say, the majority of people have to get majority stake in the country ot there will be hell to pay. BTW, you will need an inkling of history to get the right perspective here. ravikant seattle, United States
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 46	If the congress wins the next general elections guess they will also reserve key positions for monkeys alongside the backwards in the PSUs graduated from reserved educational institutions so that they can follow Sonia's and other western commands! The only long term answer to this monkey business started by our spineless politicians is to break up the country into 2 parts: a) Bhimdesh and b) Brahmadesh. The former will have 100% reservations for backwards and also monkeys if they become smart enough to demand so while the Brahmadesh will automatically have 100% reservations for the upper castes. And let Bhimdesh be located where the demographic population of the backwards is maximum. The Brahmadesh can be on the western part of India where a fairly large chunk of population is non-backward... Nikhil Pune, India
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 45	Mr Kumar you know what will happen. 1. As soon as this reservation goes through. IITs and IIMs will die its natural death in 10 years. 2. Institutions like ISB will flourish because the fees will be very high and no poor person will be able to pay for it, but there are enough rich people around in this india to create 3-4 ISBs and replace IIMs. 3. For IITs it will mar our technical prowess for sometime but again private technical institutions like BITs pilani or IIIT or Dhirubhai ambani institute will start attracting huge chunck of indian talent into there bossom and with good payment to faculty, faculty will also start moving away from IITs. Simply speaking these OBCs will be studying in third grade institutions called IITs and IIMs while the richer and more resourceful people will move on to bigger better institutions. Nobody can stop the flow of water not even a mountain leave alone this corrupt government. Abhishek Abhishek Drolia Raipur, India
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 44	Maulana Arjun Singh,s policies will encourage bright young Indians to study and work abroad. Thats the way I see this happened with some of the young uns in my family. And frankly though its USA and not India which will get the best talent, at least our bright kids will get a chance to develop their talent, and live a full life in the USA. ASingh will ensure the slide of India into mediocraty. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 43	I would be surprised if there are even 10% of Indians who would oppose 49.5% reservations in educational institutions and probably even with reservations in private sector (there may be micro level differences like whether MBC should be a separate category etc). The ST/SC/OBC who constitute about 80% of population should have occupied in the approximate range of 80% of seats. But today their representation is negligible (except where there is reservation already). The Industry representatives discussing with Group Of Ministers on the issue of reservations in private sector agreed in an issued statement, that merit is not a natural phenomenon but shaped by social circumstances. To suggest that reservation should be merely based on economic status alone is therefore incorrect. It mischievous is to construe the entire issue of fairness in representation as merely a populist measure for votes (though many may have that aspect in mind). It is unfortunate that the less than 10% of people who oppose reservations do not want (the most meritorious of the) 80% of the population from occupying even 50% of seats and representation in other walks of life. In case of Mandal-I, the congress and the BJP were the anti-mandal parties. In mandal-2, Congress is the one introducing it and BJP would have been no where without its OBC leaders. Kumar Bangalore, India
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 42	The upper caste hullaballoo about Arjun Singh's reservation plan is sheer abominable self-serving hypocrisy. One should not believe them for a moment when they snivel that they are thinking of India's good. These upper class types are the most selfish persons ever born and are the last to thionk of India's good. They have ALWAYS betrayed India. The upper caste propaganda idea that India can progress by becoming a "talent pool" overlooks the question: pool for whom? Just a lot of snobbish upper caste types scooting off to California? Who says a hundred thousand software engineer who get, let us say, an average of 70 per cent marks are worse for India's development that 20,000 who get 95 per cent marks but half of whom leave india for good anyway? Who says that a large pool of not absolutely first-rate talent is not better for India than a small pool of very good talent? If they can't go abroad, that is a bonus: Indian investment in them won't be wasted and they can help the home economy to grow. A large number of competent enginners and other professionals to tackle the problems of India's masses is what India needs, not a small bunch of super-super-duper whiz kids who go off to California and whose billions, supposing they are a great success, never reach the Indian poor. India should concentrate on the needs of the masses to develop harmoniously. as for the upper castes: let them claer off to where they belong: Pakistan. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 41	Lalitbhai, don't forget, in any case, that that summit of jurisprudential intellect -coruscating, scintillating, transcendent, luminiscent, exhilarating and resplendent! - Ram Jethmalani, has eloquently argued in favour of the reservations. Where such an one has spoken, who shall dare to contradict? Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 40	Lalitbhai, a few days ago it rained a lot during the night and the next morning I went out to play a bit of golf. Our golf course here in Jinja is incredibly spectacular, running right along the high heavily overgrown bakns of the Nile, so that you look down on the huge powerful river swirling along way down. However, I soon found that my ball had got into a kind of small muddy pit. Then I found a lot of similar muddy pits, leading away like footprints. And I realised that that was just what they were: hippo footprints. Since I knew that it was the custom for players on this course to be allowed to pick the ball out of hippo footprints, I was OK. It's quite fun here in Darkest Africa. The most troublesome aspect is the level of crime. So you are worried about the fate of the twice-born in the era of Arjun Singh? Not to worry. they have at least two easy courses of action: 1.They can marry Dalits and Tribals. This will be no hardship as we know upper caste Hindus have no prejudices against lower caste ones. 2. They can form a political alliance with the Muslims and, possibly, the Dalits and Triblas, thus isolating the OBCs. Simple ! It won't be easy for the OBCs to counter such moves. If you upper castes don't mind getting chummy with jihadis, that is. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 39	In reality the clevare students will be forced to study in lesser known universeties, and colleges, but will do very well. Clever people will always manage to shine, and the second rate will not do so well. Ultimately merit will be proved and reqarded in the market place. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 38	Ramdas Bhajanbhai Amidst the jungles of the dark continent we see this shiny light, our friend Ramdas Bhajanbhai. The most effective escape for upper classes is to emigrate to the west. And from all accounts lots are already heading for USA shores. Leave Bharat for the sons and daughters of the soil, the shakulars, minorities and so forth. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 37	Abhimanyu I know that all the people I know in Delhi go out to vote. However for every such a person, there are a dozen who can not read or write. How does one solve this problem. And if you observe how people are in states like Bengal, Bihar, UP I am sure you will give up India,s smart and brilliant people are grossly out numbered. And even in this debate forums there are quite a few awfully dismal characters. Lets not be too ambitious about India. There is a tremendous head wind against it. This country is beset by a number of very serious problems, for which there is no cure. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 36	My prediction is that among the most die-hard chaddi-Hindutvawadi-Hindi-Hindu-Hindustan-safron types - the ones puking cow's urine from the ears - there will soon be an amazing upsurge of PRO-MUSLIM, PRO-PSEUDO-SECULAR sentiment: when these upper caste types realise that they have to join nthe Muslims to fight the OBCs after arjun Singh's smart IIM and IIT reservation move !!! Hee heee heee ! What fun ! all those Shankars and Young Michaels and Abhimanyus and amybe even Lalit Bagai !!! Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 35	Navdeep Hans, spare us your ingratiating upper caste pieties. The OBCs are not fools. The OBC, Dalits and Tribals are a majority in India, and will increasingly act to get the upper castes out of ALL positions of power which they have monopolised for thousands of years. This is going to be a tough and ruthless struggle. There are many OBCs I know in India who are not satisfied with 49.5 per cent reservation. They say, quite frankly: As soon as there is a sufficient pool of qualified OBC, Dalit and Tribal candidates for the ITTs, IMMS, IAS, etc etc, why not impose 100 per cent reservation? To me that seems a bit extreme; I think poor upper caste students should be given a modest reservation. It is hilarious to see all you so so so snobbish upper castes suddenly waking up to the advantages of marrying Dalits and Tribals, and also seeing the importance of good education for all ! This guy Arjun Singh is my hero of heroes. He is FORCING the incredibly selfish Hindu upper castes to open their caste-blinded eyes and to get some intelligent thoughts into their thick conceited skulls....BRAVO, ARJUN SINGH !!!!! You needn't hope the BJP will rescue the upper castes from this trap. They know that OBCs are the key to election victories in India. They don't want to committ electoral sucide. So, you upperccastes, just keep aborting female foetuses and hiding from the sun on election day..... You could, of course, join up with somebody else and make quite a powerful coalition: THE MUSLIMS. Ta ta, you "wheatish-complexioned" fellas!!!! See you in Texas!!! Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 34	==> Ramdas, You say that 'the upper castes are a minority and cannot control India." True. But then why do you need reservation, can't you compete like everybody else. The admission process of IIT's and IIM's are the most transparent in India today and nobody can accuse them of discrimination on the basis of caste. So why have reservation for a section of people that clearly do not seem disadvantaged going by your statements. You are obviously behaving like a sore looser. However I do believe that there are disadvantaged sections in our society who do not have access to services like the vast middle class do. Reservation instead of reaching out to these sections will only end up helping the well of undeservedly. Only if the state treats its citizens equally will the citizens be encouraged to treat other with mutual respect . An evil practice cannot be destroyed by bringing about another evil practice. Navdeep Hans Delhi, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 33	Ramdas of Uganda .... says "This move by Congress is excellent, because it will force the amazingly selfish upper castes to promote mass education for the poor. Well done, Arjun Singh !" You are right .... hope this indeed is "intended consequence". However, I am a believer in the law of "unintended consequences" but nonetheless Arjun Singh might unintendedly achieve this. Also, on the other suggestion on marriage ... brilliant suggestion. Arranged marriage is probably one of the institutions developed to re-inforce caste .... so it's breakdown or use in the way you suggest might just be the stroke of genius. Arun Maheshwari Bangalore, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 32	But come to think of it there is an astonishingly simple solution for Brahmins nad other Hindu upper castes who want to get their chil;dren into IITs and IIMs. Strange that no-one on this website has noticed it. It's so easy: The Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vishyas ahould all choose their brides or hubands from Dalits and Tribals. Then the children will be on an equal footing in all situations involving "reservations". Since, as all Sanata Dharma supporters will tell you, being upper caste in Hinduism does not involve athe slightest prejudice against lower castes and Dalits or Tribals, there is no problem at all. Everyone should be happy. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 31	It's great to see all these upper caste trolls yelling their tiny heads off over the reservation for OBCs in IITs and IIMs policy. Suddenly they are pointing to OBC atrocities against Dalits, which they cared damn all about until now. They are calling for good education at primary level for all Indians, instead of reservation: why did they take no interest in that before? Some upper caste goons are threatening to burn themsleves alive, little realising that the rest of India couldn't care less. The upper castes should go to Pakistan. India belongs to the majority, i.e. the OBCs, the Dalits, and Tribals. They have plenty of children; the upper castes are literally dying out, aborting female foetuses. Look how even the BJP is supporting the reservation move. They are realistic. The upper castes are a minority and cannot control India. This move by Congress is excellent, because it will force the amazingly selfish upper castes to promote mass education for the poor. Well done, Arjun Singh ! Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 30	Vishal says .... "Arun, Even the private initiative does not work. I know of places in Bangalore where big apartment complexes are coming up have horrible approach roads. Builders have agreed to make the roads on build and transfer basis. However, the corporation does not appear to be keen on the idea. They just want the money from builders and they claim that they would make roads. Everyone knows the reason why...they have their "preferred" contractors. Public private partnership here is limited to getting money from private sector." Absolutely, private initiative isn't guaranteed to work either but my point is something other than government initiative is needed. Government cannot solve the problem .... even if we had "good" one which I think is dreaming the wrong thing to start with. Also, note I didn't mean private-public partnership (PPP). I don't think PPP can work as a general rule until we have re-balancing of the power dynamics between state and citizen. It's premature today by and large but may be someday in the future. I was thinking more on lines with powerful industry body (FICCI, etc.) and powerful industrialists (Tata, Birla, Wipro, Infosys types)kickstarting this and these are powerful enough (or teflon coated) that the government would at least grundingly let them go on. Arun Maheshwari Bangalore, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 29	Naveen .... My view is that IITs and IIMs were government funded but they had a degree of autonomy driven by the fact that initially they had foreign collaborations, national level, support from topmost quarters (Nehru), and probably run by people who pushed the envelope of autonomy. Also because the elite/upper-class/upper-caste cared for it in direct or indirect ways as their primary schools needs were fulfilled by affordable private schools. Primary school education didn't get the attention and it has been a disaster. Kendriya Vidyalya are doing well because they are tied to an institution like the armed service and in fact where even the brasses children attend. In fact Kendriya Vidyalaya was the model for my suggestion on how if at all government schools can improve - if the brasses (big chiefs) children attend they will make sure it is good. Simple. As regards, your suggestion on removing government funding .... sure ... but in a strange sort of way the government wouldn't want because they use these institutions to show they can get somethings right. The kind of accountability we (and I assume safe to say the middle class) want from government can only happen once the bulge of the bell curve is the middle class. That some ways off. Though that's why many times on this forum my point has been that democracy and growing economy suggest might be the salvation and break from our past we need. Arun Maheshwari Bangalore, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 28	If you see the list of castes which come under reservation rule, it runs into thousands and many more are thumping their chest wanting to be recognized as backward( it happens only in India). In India politicians win elections promosing to take the people (castes)backward!! I think the best idea is to create a quota for merit which very satisfactorily achieves the latest policy's objective which is not the upliftment of the downtrodden but pushing down the so called upper guys sridhar Bangalore, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 27	Arun, Even the private initiative does not work. I know of places in Bangalore where big apartment complexes are coming up have horrible approach roads. Builders have agreed to make the roads on build and transfer basis. However, the corporation does not appear to be keen on the idea. They just want the money from builders and they claim that they would make roads. Everyone knows the reason why...they have their "preferred" contractors. Public private partnership here is limited to getting money from private sector. If I buy a apartment, i pay registration, VAT etc. Should i not demand QoS. As consumers we are being taken for a ride by government and its stooges. Obviously its my fault. I have never voted. How can I? Got my voters card 10 years back. For more than a decade I have been away from home, working in different cities, countries. How do i give my vote?Does the government want me to take a 3 hour flight and a 14hr train ride, so that i go home and vote.Why not make investments in streamlining voting system where in i can go to the nearest booth irrespective of which state I am in. What is BJP doing about it? It claims to have middle class as its vote bank. Coming back to reservations, it is obviously a bad idea. Reservation should be strictly on economic basis not on caste class. If a OBC babu's kid gets a reserved seat at IIT and a poor uppercast person has to slog even to make endsmeet, its not done. This is reverse castesim. Politicians should understand the mistakes of division. Why to divide an already divided society. Why not promote intercaste marriages and give tax benifits and other incentives to such couples? Had something like this been done before instead of myopic policies we would've had a generation of people who would've not been of any class. Vishal Sharma Bangalore, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 26	==> Arun, I understand your concern regarding the well being of a govt. funded school. But then note IIT's, IIM's, Kendriya Vidyalaya etc are all Govt. funded institutions and all these institutions have turned out to be excellent centres for higher learning. Today IIT's, IIM's are recognized for a certain value they have created. By trying to enforce reservation here, we will only end up destroying these institutions. Instead the better option would be to withdraw govt. funding from these institutions as these institutions can now stand on their own legs and instead divert the funds etc.to create educational centres for the disadvantaged section of the society. The Govt. has to be held responsible and accountable by everyone for the same because after all aren't the innumerable cess being collected by Indians meant for schemes such as these. Navdeep Hans Delhi, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 25	Naveen Hans says "The correct way I feel to go about achieving the upliftment would be to establish good schools with good faculty, mid-day meals etc with Govt. funding on a national level. These schools should admit only students from the economically and socially backward classes." Great theory and nobody can disagree. But I think there are two problems. One schools dedicated to the "disadvantaged" are bound to become worse by and large than the government schools today are. Secondly, given Government hasn't solved this problem is sufficient number of years since independence, why keep wanting government driven solutions. One way I can think of Government schools improving is tying their destiny to the destiny of politicians/bureaucrats destiny. So the progeny of our politicians/bureaucrats MUST attend a government school and it must be the government school in their consitituency or place of posting. If this can be put in law and enforced, I guarantee the government schools will improve otherwise it will a lot of talk and hot air. The big question is can it be done. I don't think so. What's the way out ... private initiative? If the intersection of elite/upper-class/upper-caste truly believe in what you said - ".... need for the upliftment of the socially and economically backward section of the society. It is in everybody's interests that all Indians are treated equally and have access to good education." - then it time to act directly - forget government. Only one I have heard doing this is Asim Premji who has an initiative - don't know how good or it's real impact. Otherwise, we must accept that a badly architected society, which we are, can only be bandaged to avoid it completely blowing in our face and one of the bandages will be sops like reservation, free this and free that. Arun Maheshwari Bangalore, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 24	Today it is MM Joshi who is having the last laugh be'coz he did want to bring in some kind of help to all these IIM & IIT & their student's his but the caretaker's of these Institutes thought that he was trying to curb their power. In some way yes but not in the the manner what Arjun singh & Company has done . Today i feel the Indian middle class has been stranded beaten red & blue & left to wander in the scorching sun without water anywhere. But this is what they really deserve , Had they taken little bit of pain come out in the sun for an hour or two to vote , they wud not have to face this irony. But then Saab chaalta hai to yeh bhi chalega. till the time they they are to scre&*^% to a point where they have nothing but their clothes left on their body .UNHEIN AKAL NAHI AAYEGI. Vijayant Sharma Nagpur, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 23	At a time when india is making the mark for its knowledge base this step is incomprehnsible and designed to take us back to the dark ages. smita purushottam London, UK
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 22	Another one of tricks from Congress hat. Dont know when these guys would learn anything. It feels that I am somehow unwanted here in India. Babus in Delhi always miss to notice the future being scripted in Bangalore,Chennai, Hyderabad and Pune. First they make diffult for us who are riding the "unreserved" compartment to clear entrance exams. Some how we manage to sneak into a bachelors course, then by a lot of hard work and luck we get into masters. Somehow manage to finsh the degree in distinction or merit and land up with "plush" jobs in Bangalore. However the misery doesnt end here. Babus want to have reservations in Private Sector as well. Nice idea, what next??? reservations in promotions??? Criteria like: Only candidates with 10 years work experience can become project managers in open catagory. However reserved employees can do it in 6 years. Hahaha and would the companies be risking developing applications for clients, applications which do Billions of dollars of transactions every month and let the project be handled by "reserved" Project Manager?? Maybe Government can risk it with government doctors but the corporates wont and shouldnt. Wake up old babu and "loser" Arjun Singh...the discard of Vindhya. Now for the other minister, esteemed Mr. Chidambaram (Two face blood sucker). Wants us to pay for the highways (2% cess on petrol), pay for the education (2% of the total income cess), pay for the airports (Rs500 cess on every ticket), pay for state government education (2% of the property value for any property more than 10 lacs). If we are paying for everything then where's governments' allocation going? Does anyone tries to find out? He wants us (honest taxpayers) to manage his country's finance. Can I take your job too Mr.C? :) I have taken millions of jobs from US and Europe..i am a champion at outsourcing. Jokes apart, his policy is simple suck the honest taxpayers dry. Dunno which freaking foriegn Univ he went to...had he payed more attention at school he would have known about killing the golden goose story. 250 million+ middle class they say to Bush. Middle finger to you from this middle class!!! Vishal Sharma Bangalore, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 21	==> Ganapathi, You ask what is Merit. To cite an e.g., I alongwith numerous other aspirants had applied for IIM. The tough admission process weeded me out and instead selected students who were demonstrably better than me in certain skill sets. Did I feel bad. Of course I did. But did I consider the system unfair - No. Because I was given as much opportunity as the next person to qualify for a seat in a fair and transparent process. That my dear man is selection based on Merit. Yes like you mention certain posts like the head of UN etc are more based on reservation. And I feel it is o.k. Because UN is more of a representative organization and reservation in such context I feel is o.k as I feel it is also o.k. in politics. But certain areas where certain skill sets are required like business, sports etc, selection by Merit is the best way forward to achieve a competitive edge. That is why most family run organizations now understand the value of hiring professional to run their organization. Navdeep Hans Delhi, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 20	I understand the need for the upliftment of the socially and economically backward section of the society. It is in everybody's interests that all Indians are treated equally and have access to good education. However reservation in the present form and as proposed is difinitely not the way for it. All that reservation manages to do is to keep the caste system alive. The correct way I feel to go about achieving the upliftment would be to establish good schools with good faculty, mid-day meals etc with Govt. funding on a national level. These schools should admit only students from the economically and socially backward classes. Once these students have access to good education till the secondary level, I am sure they will be equally equipped to compete with any other candidate for admission in prestigious Universties. Grants of scholarship etc at a later stage exclusively for these students will help them bear the cost of further education better. I also feel Kanacha Illiah should be declared a terrorist and put behind bars. Any person who threatens a civil war publicly just because his narrow demands are not met can definitely be classified as a terrorist. Navdeep Hans Delhi, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 19	http://www.indianexpress.com/story/2155.html No mention of OBCs in Constitutional amendment; former CJI Khare says, “Never was there any mention of OBC in SC ruling” Young Michael Wonderville, United States
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 18	The MBCs should be made a separate category within the OBC. The MBCs are not reaping the proportionate benefits in OBC category. Kumar Bangalore, India
Apr 09, 2006 12:00 AM 17	the current controversy over the decision of the hrd ministry to reserve seats for obc had brought the word merit to the limelight again.what is merit?i am yet to get an answer for this after going thru many books,listening to lectures,debates and writing to great people who shout against reservations in the name of merit.hope the enlightened readers of outlook will provide an answer.i kindly ask the readers to name one post,seat in the world which is not RESERVED on the basis of place of birth,nationality etc(i read in news paper that the top most post in the world un gen secretary is now reserved this time for asians).the day when the iits and iims are open to anyone in the world including jews,scots,blacks etc we can talk of merit in objective terms.the topper in nagaland may get only60% and land up ith medicine,engg,law etc while the 1000th rank holder in delhi may have 90% and not get into any professional institutions.does it mean that the nagaland topper doesnt have merit.he is equally if not more meritorious to me as he will try to work/establish a industry/hospital in his home state unlike a high scoring fellow whose next step is to go to a still higher job/academy in usa/europe.replace the word nagaland withSC/ST/OBC and delhi with FC and u will find the logic behind the move to reserve seats.i am yet to come across anyone from iit,iim,aiims in the indian army.this is will defenitely change as there will be candidates now joining these institutes who are average in english and have to work immdtly after their graduation to support their families and will be looked down upon by the meritorious pvt sector(BECAUSE IT CONSISTS OF PEOPLE LIKE RATAN TATA,GODREJ,BAJAJ,AMBANI ETC WHO WERE ALL TOPPERS IN IIT,IIMS AND BECAME THE LEADERS PURELY ON MERIT,IRRESPECTIVE THEIR BIRTH).Backward classes are unfortunately a state within the current states and it is only reservation which is preventing a civil war.If reservation is denied than there is a defenite possibility of demands for sudraland,dalitistan etc where they have to compete amongst themselves and hence get into colleges on the basis of merit.the dalit entering thru resrvation in iits is a topper among more than 20lakh dalit students and if this is not merit than what is.real merit is absence of involvement of money power and unfortunately the current group of students who enter premier institutions make it purely of money power(THEY STUDY IN SCHOOLS WHICH CHARGE THOUSANDS OF FEES AND UNDERGO COACHING SPENDING SEVERAL THOUSANDS OF RUPEES).This is the reason for nil nobel laurates and any talented discoveries since its inception.the criteria of caste makes reservation look ugly and the proper documentation of individuals may help the govt to reserve seats on the basis of profession of parents,economic standards,place of study etc in future. finally it is caste based reservation which is helping in promoting intercaste marriages by making all caste people to study in higher institutes.the other simple solution to reservation is to marry their children to children belonging to reserved communities thus making everyone reserved leading to the natural death of reservation : ganapathi chennai, India
Apr 09, 2006 12:00 AM 16	People get the govt. they deserve Till the middle class in India have this 'sab chalta hain' attitude and would rather sit at home playing cards or watching T.V. rather then vote on the election day, parties like Congress would keep getting voted back to power. Indians refuse to learn from history. The only effect the latest Arjun Singh's move would have is all intelligent, talented people would try to move out of India,if they can, for their higher education and reluctant to come back because they would want a good future for themselves and their children. Abhimanyu Mumbai, India
Apr 09, 2006 12:00 AM 15	The real problem associated with the reservation issue is that OBC/MBC/SC-ST candidates being selected under open merit lists are excluded from the reservation quotas. This ends up with the OBC group actually getting quite a percentage on open competition, asking for additional 27% to the exclusion of others. A better method would be to fill up all sanctioned seats as per merit list and then see how much of those selected thereby are from OBC. If this percentage exceeds 27% the parliamentary mandate will be deemed satisfied. In case it is less than 27%, additional sanctions/selections from the merit list may be made -down the line - until the OBC percentage becomes 27. Same approach may be made for SC-ST also. An upper limit of 20 % increase each year may have to be imposed, to ensure that facilities for training are not overburdened due to expansion of intakes. For the sake of social transparency, it is desirable that all selections for all institutions every year are published to indicate the percentages selected from various caste and minority categories, so that there is public awareness of realities, instead of politically inspired statements clouding the social vision. Scholarships/special tuitions can then be arranged for lagging groups by government or NGOs. . . v.seshadri chennai, india
Apr 09, 2006 12:00 AM 14	the recent increae in reservations does not affectthe likes of mr. arjun wand his ilk who anyways send their kids to study abroad . it asffects the majority left backwho as it is find it difficult to cope up with the shrinking number of seats and the ever rising prices of education in india. that too when wehave just a handfull of iits and iims rest of the education system stinks ofmalpractice and shoddy mismanagement. will the govt. ever do anything to improve the system? no not till the congress runsbehind the minority votes and the bjp swears to undo the injustice doneto hindu students. ameetbhuvan bhubaneswar, India
Apr 09, 2006 12:00 AM 13	Article in Sunday Indianexpress: http://www.indianexpres.../sunday/story/2092.html Arjun Singh has a problem Young Michael Wonderville, United States
Apr 09, 2006 12:00 AM 12	Most times both articles and surely the responses blames politicians .... IMHO, politicians are quite a smart tribe and behave very objectively .... the key is to know what their objective is? Their objectives are 1. Get elected 2. Ensure during their term nobody usurps their "throne" 3. Ensure victory in next elections 4. Make enough money for self, progeny and party (in that order) 5. Ensure family rule can continue when they die (or get caught so that the "dead horse" law can be flogged to take it's own course). So obviously where is the time, energy and money left for enlightened work that people keep seeming to expect - suckers for punishment for expecting this so they keep getting the punishment due. To expect better from my perspective is rank stupidity because it's the nature of the beast and beasts respond naturally. Good people can't be a sustainable answer ... they will either be co-opted or ejected. Most people consider Manmohan Singh and Abdul Kalam as "good" variety of people. They have done squat and will only do squat or they will be ejected. Does one notice any difference from the age of feudalism - kings, queens and emporerors except once every x year during election. Having said this given all the other systems and their evils, democracy continues to the lesser of evil and some ray of hopefullness, and did well for the "west", so we will just have to see. Caste was the reason we were and are a flawed civilization and so why so much surprise that it remains the reason we will continue to be a flawed civilization. Just like in software, bad architecture will limit it's potential. So choice is either accept the limitations or re-architect. Both valid and reasonable options. Same here. Re-architecture is quite traumatic and risk prone, I don't think our society likes these sorts of solution. So accepting the limitations and hoping for minor improvements is the best option. The elite (and mostly from the upper caste) haven't done squat other than say government isn't doing enough and give them gyan on improving primary education and healthcare as the real answer. Do we really think government doesn't know this .... they know ..... it's just to expect from them a solution is where the stupidity lies. Instead couldn't anyone who earns Rs 1 crore and more in India, just say I will run a school cum primary health care center in one village. I assume one should be able to cover every village (or forget village do the same for the slum next to you). Since these sorts of things are unlikely to happen why crib when other stupid actions/policy are taken. I would say stupid action is anyday better than inaction. The enemy is within as always ... just like it's easier for politicians to do quotas, free this and that .... it's easier for the rest of us to treat politicians as punching bag and even disdain BUT they don't give a damn and are laughing all the way to the bank (swiss variety) and local watering hole (read bar) where they all (across the spectrum) meet at night and enjoy just like the rajas, maharajas, nawabs and what have you of the past and look down upon the ruled from a spectrum ranging from paternalism to disdain. In the meantime, good thing is I have enough time to prepare my savings nest to ensure my children don't have to worry about education in India. Anyways, it's mostly overrated and resting on weak foundations. Arun Maheshwari Bangalore, India
Apr 09, 2006 12:00 AM 11	Some paras from article by M.J.Akbar >>>>According to the 2001 census, Hindus constitute 80.5% of India’s population, Muslims 13.4%, Christians 2.3%, Sikhs 1.9%. Others make up the remaining two per cent. The minorities are not included in reservations, nor are the upper castes: between them, the minorities and the upper castes would add up to 40%. So in real terms, 60% per cent of India is being guaranteed 50% of the seats in the best educational institutions. Do the math. I have never been comfortable with minorityism. In fact, I have tended to anger Indian Muslims by asking them a difficult question: at what stage of their history did they become a minority? Were Muslims of North India a minority under Mughal rule two hundred years ago? Were the Muslims of Hyderabad a minority when the Nizam was in power sixty years ago? The answer is, no. In other words, a minority status is not a function of numbers; it is a function of empowerment. The Brahmin has a miniscule population and lives across all economic layers, but no Brahmin sees himself as a minority, because he is socially and politically empowered. But a good idea has been perverted by excess. If half the students of a quality institution are there because of quotas rather than intellectual ability then they will affect the quality of the institution. Instead of the institution raising the standards of the students, students will lower the standards of the institution. The young are not unreasonable; the old do not have a monopoly on wisdom. Students have accepted existing levels of quotas because they too can see its limited need. But students will not allow politics to drag their schools into a swamp. Politicians can think no further than the next elections. The young have their whole lives to consider. Young Michael Wonderville, United States
Apr 09, 2006 12:00 AM 10	The students from the IIT,s etc have made India shine as a hub of higer education, the home of whiz kids and so on. However it just takes a moron like Arjun Singh to destroy it all. The Congress , MMS the straw man, his boss Soniaji, will do anything to get votes. Perhaps Arjun Singh is just the fall guy. Any way this jerk should not be called by the name of Arjun. Its an insult to the Hindu heritage. However I suppose rich parents will send their kids to MIT, Columbia etc. It will be the poor but brilliant higher caste students who will suffer. What a joke. Casteism reversed. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 09, 2006 12:00 AM 9	Even if "we all should vote", as has been suggested, for most of us who seem to be out of India, the politicians have worked it out very nicely. When voted, as at the time of Mandal, the beneficiaries would vote for the benefactors - or the perceived benefactors, which is why there is not word against any of this from any of the politicians, as this article itself very clearly points out. The OBCs are the most advantaged, and privileged people, politically today - from Mulayam, Laloo, Narendra Modi, Uma Bharati to all the rest of them. Why should they oppose. Electorally, this was the card the Congress was saving for elections, and Arjun Singh has only leaked that not only these 5 states but mid-term polls are around the corner now. Congress would go to the electorate claiming Sacrifice and OBC empowerment! Simple. Ajit Tendulkar Seattle, United States
Apr 09, 2006 12:00 AM 8	It is indeed pitiable to see how the congress is hell bent on dividing the country by its policy of appeasment of one community. First they divided the country among hindus and muslims and now they are dividing among OBC's and non-OBC's. For no fault of theirs therw will be a backlash against OBC's etc. And of course OBC's consider their divine right to be given these sops. This is the same way congress turned the muslim community into a ghettoised vote bank. Fifty years from now we are going to see the same thing. We all have a voice. Let us turn out in droves and vote against the congress, and prove it to them that such policies will not help them win elections. Middle class is ignored because it is does not vote. Not only should we vote, but also talk to all our friends etc. to come out and vote against this policy. Let us make the congress pay so bad that these politicions realise that this will not work....just as people made BJP realise years back that dividing the country among communal lines does not work. Bhaskar Ann Arbor, USA
Apr 08, 2006 12:00 AM 7	Guess what What is the name of an animal which has a tiny bird brain, the cunning of a fox, the sleaze of a lizard, and the hide of a rhino.Here is a tiny tip , this animal is in poltics.Is 75 years old, is relatively bald, and wears glasses. Come now. The first prize is one weeks holiday in Pakistan. Second prize is two weeks holiday in Pakistan along with your mother in law. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 08, 2006 12:00 AM 6	My favorite quote. "Nobody can stop India from becoming Great. Except Congress. Only Congress can do it!! " These motherf***** should be burnt alive! Dinesh BC London, United Kingdom
Apr 08, 2006 12:00 AM 5	Consider the way things have been going on: a) Left says its not satisfied with teh way the Govt is behaving on Iran, US N-Deal, AAI privatisation etc and that it will bite this time - not merely bark (once again) b) The Saint makes a second pitch at Sainthood through "renunciation" (Now she'll be called Saint of Saints) c) Left says that it will review support after state elections d) Arjun Singh announces Mandalisation Are these indications that there may be mid-term polls on the horizon? The Congress is already deep into minority appeasement. Add to that "renewed sacrifices" and quotas - that is something to dish out to the electorate during m-t polls. Srinivas Delhi, India
Apr 08, 2006 12:00 AM 4	Reservation in General or Generalisation of Reservation ? Playing politics should be learnt from none other than Arjun Singh.He has been earlier considered as a Champion of the downtrodden while he was the chief minister of M.P. and Chankya of Modern Politics.Now with this master stroke he has rolled a ball which nobody in politics can contradict.Ratan Tata is the only gutsy man in Indian Industry who has openly criticized it immediately.Others are keeping silence.Politically this is an issue which nobody amongst the politicians would dare to oppose.With a 5 member Constitutional Bench already hearing a number of petitions challenging the validity of consititutional amendments made by the Parliament earlier this new announcement has come.All eyes would now be on the academicians and the Supreme Court as to what is right and what is wrong.The Election Commission can at the most question the timing but not the policy. The question is whether it is Reservation in General or Generalisation of Reservation ? Earlier when the Mandal Commission report was announced to be implemented by Shri VP Singh From Lal Kila while he was Prime Minister.The aim behind it was to counter the Vote challenge put forward by Shri Charan Singh, Shri Chautala and Shri Mulayam Singh and others.He countered everybody but then many students from General Category Candidates committed suicide and there were incidents of self immolation also. Now what ? May be we may not witness that kind of reaction but then the real question is what else should be done to promote the development of the so called reserved category or OBC's as specified by the Government. Should there be a fresh debate as to whether reservation on the basis of Financial status be granted ? No reservation to those families who have already availed it once in their life. Indian Politics do not seem to have courage to debate and answer this. All the yadavs , paswans and likes may now have to face stiff challange from Arjun Singh. Romi Singh Indore, India
Apr 08, 2006 12:00 AM 3	THIS BASTAR* ARJUN SINGH AFTER BEING OPENLY SNUBBED BY THE COURTS ON ALIGARH UNIV. RESERVATION ISSUE IS BACK TO DELIBERATELY TRYING TO RUIN THE FUTURE ON INDIA...IT IS OBVIOUS CONGRESSEES WOULD EVEN SELL INDIA IN THEIR DESPERATION TO CLING TO POWER. THIS 49.5% RESERVATION IS PLAIN POLITICS BUT I AM SHOCKED HOW LOW CONGRESSEES LIKE ARJUN SINGH CAN STOOP...THIS CONGRESS GOVT WOULD GO DOWN IN HISTORY AS THE MOST CORRUPT AND SHAMELESS GOVT INDIA HAS HAD FROM THE LAST 60 YEARS. INSTEAD OF PROMOTING MERITOCRACY, THESE CONGRESS BASTAR** ARE OPENLY RUINING INDIA FOR THE SAKE OF VOTES. Today morning election commission has sent a notice to Congress also as to the timing of this move when elections are taking place in 5 states. Watch this space, the backlash against this move would mean the death knell of Congress party in India. Mandalisation initiated by V.P.Singh would seem like a picnic compared to the backlash this move by Congress will initiate. I hope Congress can see the dark clouds arising in the horizon and are ready to face the full fury of the impending storm. This old scum Arjun Singh is doing his utmost to divide India before he kicks the bucket. PM ManMohan Singh is a partner in crime in Arjun Singh's effort. Young Michael Wonderville, United States
Apr 08, 2006 12:00 AM 2	Its disgusting to see the vote bank politics played by the Congress party. Not that the BJP is clean but it certainly is better. It appears that the Congress will even sell the country if it can muster a deal with an even powerful force that guarantees it power play. Having messed around with minority reservation (which was struck down by the SC), it is now dividing the country with a new OBC reservation. This is certainly going to lead to mass exodus out of India - not to mention caste based conflict on campus. By increasing the reservation to nearly 50%, it will be very difficult for any other party to bring it down at a later point as it will be construed as being "pro-general 'quota'" as eventually benefit the stupid power-hungry Congress at that time. This is indeed clever political thinking (and action) by the Congress but something that will ruin the country - just as ALL the Congress decisions have so far. The only suprise element is that this is happening under the nose of Manmohan Singh who is regarded as Mr.Clean by many. Unfortunately we'll have to settle for the fact that he is indeed a puppet at Sonia's hands... and what better can we expect from a foreigner who has her personal agenda of saving the throne for her semi-Indian (or should I say semi-Italian) heir??? Shame on Congress. Shame on Manmohan SIngh. SHame on Sonia Maino (Gandhi). Finally, I have no words for Arjun Singh or the HRD ministry in general. They need to be treated with the contempt they rightly deserve for pursuing such an anti-national (pro-Congress) agenda. srihari rajasekhar johnson city, USA
Apr 08, 2006 12:00 AM 1	Such cynical steps on the part of Arjun Singh or the Congress can only be counter-productive. While giving some leg-up to the disadvantaged may be justified, taking it to the length where it becomes a mockery will, in the long run, be harmful to the disadvantaged. Ghulam Y Faruki New York, United States

Apr 08, 2006 12:00 AM 1	Such cynical steps on the part of Arjun Singh or the Congress can only be counter-productive. While giving some leg-up to the disadvantaged may be justified, taking it to the length where it becomes a mockery will, in the long run, be harmful to the disadvantaged. Ghulam Y Faruki New York, United States
Apr 08, 2006 12:00 AM 2	Its disgusting to see the vote bank politics played by the Congress party. Not that the BJP is clean but it certainly is better. It appears that the Congress will even sell the country if it can muster a deal with an even powerful force that guarantees it power play. Having messed around with minority reservation (which was struck down by the SC), it is now dividing the country with a new OBC reservation. This is certainly going to lead to mass exodus out of India - not to mention caste based conflict on campus. By increasing the reservation to nearly 50%, it will be very difficult for any other party to bring it down at a later point as it will be construed as being "pro-general 'quota'" as eventually benefit the stupid power-hungry Congress at that time. This is indeed clever political thinking (and action) by the Congress but something that will ruin the country - just as ALL the Congress decisions have so far. The only suprise element is that this is happening under the nose of Manmohan Singh who is regarded as Mr.Clean by many. Unfortunately we'll have to settle for the fact that he is indeed a puppet at Sonia's hands... and what better can we expect from a foreigner who has her personal agenda of saving the throne for her semi-Indian (or should I say semi-Italian) heir??? Shame on Congress. Shame on Manmohan SIngh. SHame on Sonia Maino (Gandhi). Finally, I have no words for Arjun Singh or the HRD ministry in general. They need to be treated with the contempt they rightly deserve for pursuing such an anti-national (pro-Congress) agenda. srihari rajasekhar johnson city, USA
Apr 08, 2006 12:00 AM 3	THIS BASTAR* ARJUN SINGH AFTER BEING OPENLY SNUBBED BY THE COURTS ON ALIGARH UNIV. RESERVATION ISSUE IS BACK TO DELIBERATELY TRYING TO RUIN THE FUTURE ON INDIA...IT IS OBVIOUS CONGRESSEES WOULD EVEN SELL INDIA IN THEIR DESPERATION TO CLING TO POWER. THIS 49.5% RESERVATION IS PLAIN POLITICS BUT I AM SHOCKED HOW LOW CONGRESSEES LIKE ARJUN SINGH CAN STOOP...THIS CONGRESS GOVT WOULD GO DOWN IN HISTORY AS THE MOST CORRUPT AND SHAMELESS GOVT INDIA HAS HAD FROM THE LAST 60 YEARS. INSTEAD OF PROMOTING MERITOCRACY, THESE CONGRESS BASTAR** ARE OPENLY RUINING INDIA FOR THE SAKE OF VOTES. Today morning election commission has sent a notice to Congress also as to the timing of this move when elections are taking place in 5 states. Watch this space, the backlash against this move would mean the death knell of Congress party in India. Mandalisation initiated by V.P.Singh would seem like a picnic compared to the backlash this move by Congress will initiate. I hope Congress can see the dark clouds arising in the horizon and are ready to face the full fury of the impending storm. This old scum Arjun Singh is doing his utmost to divide India before he kicks the bucket. PM ManMohan Singh is a partner in crime in Arjun Singh's effort. Young Michael Wonderville, United States
Apr 08, 2006 12:00 AM 4	Reservation in General or Generalisation of Reservation ? Playing politics should be learnt from none other than Arjun Singh.He has been earlier considered as a Champion of the downtrodden while he was the chief minister of M.P. and Chankya of Modern Politics.Now with this master stroke he has rolled a ball which nobody in politics can contradict.Ratan Tata is the only gutsy man in Indian Industry who has openly criticized it immediately.Others are keeping silence.Politically this is an issue which nobody amongst the politicians would dare to oppose.With a 5 member Constitutional Bench already hearing a number of petitions challenging the validity of consititutional amendments made by the Parliament earlier this new announcement has come.All eyes would now be on the academicians and the Supreme Court as to what is right and what is wrong.The Election Commission can at the most question the timing but not the policy. The question is whether it is Reservation in General or Generalisation of Reservation ? Earlier when the Mandal Commission report was announced to be implemented by Shri VP Singh From Lal Kila while he was Prime Minister.The aim behind it was to counter the Vote challenge put forward by Shri Charan Singh, Shri Chautala and Shri Mulayam Singh and others.He countered everybody but then many students from General Category Candidates committed suicide and there were incidents of self immolation also. Now what ? May be we may not witness that kind of reaction but then the real question is what else should be done to promote the development of the so called reserved category or OBC's as specified by the Government. Should there be a fresh debate as to whether reservation on the basis of Financial status be granted ? No reservation to those families who have already availed it once in their life. Indian Politics do not seem to have courage to debate and answer this. All the yadavs , paswans and likes may now have to face stiff challange from Arjun Singh. Romi Singh Indore, India
Apr 08, 2006 12:00 AM 5	Consider the way things have been going on: a) Left says its not satisfied with teh way the Govt is behaving on Iran, US N-Deal, AAI privatisation etc and that it will bite this time - not merely bark (once again) b) The Saint makes a second pitch at Sainthood through "renunciation" (Now she'll be called Saint of Saints) c) Left says that it will review support after state elections d) Arjun Singh announces Mandalisation Are these indications that there may be mid-term polls on the horizon? The Congress is already deep into minority appeasement. Add to that "renewed sacrifices" and quotas - that is something to dish out to the electorate during m-t polls. Srinivas Delhi, India
Apr 08, 2006 12:00 AM 6	My favorite quote. "Nobody can stop India from becoming Great. Except Congress. Only Congress can do it!! " These motherf***** should be burnt alive! Dinesh BC London, United Kingdom
Apr 08, 2006 12:00 AM 7	Guess what What is the name of an animal which has a tiny bird brain, the cunning of a fox, the sleaze of a lizard, and the hide of a rhino.Here is a tiny tip , this animal is in poltics.Is 75 years old, is relatively bald, and wears glasses. Come now. The first prize is one weeks holiday in Pakistan. Second prize is two weeks holiday in Pakistan along with your mother in law. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 09, 2006 12:00 AM 8	It is indeed pitiable to see how the congress is hell bent on dividing the country by its policy of appeasment of one community. First they divided the country among hindus and muslims and now they are dividing among OBC's and non-OBC's. For no fault of theirs therw will be a backlash against OBC's etc. And of course OBC's consider their divine right to be given these sops. This is the same way congress turned the muslim community into a ghettoised vote bank. Fifty years from now we are going to see the same thing. We all have a voice. Let us turn out in droves and vote against the congress, and prove it to them that such policies will not help them win elections. Middle class is ignored because it is does not vote. Not only should we vote, but also talk to all our friends etc. to come out and vote against this policy. Let us make the congress pay so bad that these politicions realise that this will not work....just as people made BJP realise years back that dividing the country among communal lines does not work. Bhaskar Ann Arbor, USA
Apr 09, 2006 12:00 AM 9	Even if "we all should vote", as has been suggested, for most of us who seem to be out of India, the politicians have worked it out very nicely. When voted, as at the time of Mandal, the beneficiaries would vote for the benefactors - or the perceived benefactors, which is why there is not word against any of this from any of the politicians, as this article itself very clearly points out. The OBCs are the most advantaged, and privileged people, politically today - from Mulayam, Laloo, Narendra Modi, Uma Bharati to all the rest of them. Why should they oppose. Electorally, this was the card the Congress was saving for elections, and Arjun Singh has only leaked that not only these 5 states but mid-term polls are around the corner now. Congress would go to the electorate claiming Sacrifice and OBC empowerment! Simple. Ajit Tendulkar Seattle, United States
Apr 09, 2006 12:00 AM 10	The students from the IIT,s etc have made India shine as a hub of higer education, the home of whiz kids and so on. However it just takes a moron like Arjun Singh to destroy it all. The Congress , MMS the straw man, his boss Soniaji, will do anything to get votes. Perhaps Arjun Singh is just the fall guy. Any way this jerk should not be called by the name of Arjun. Its an insult to the Hindu heritage. However I suppose rich parents will send their kids to MIT, Columbia etc. It will be the poor but brilliant higher caste students who will suffer. What a joke. Casteism reversed. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 09, 2006 12:00 AM 11	Some paras from article by M.J.Akbar >>>>According to the 2001 census, Hindus constitute 80.5% of India’s population, Muslims 13.4%, Christians 2.3%, Sikhs 1.9%. Others make up the remaining two per cent. The minorities are not included in reservations, nor are the upper castes: between them, the minorities and the upper castes would add up to 40%. So in real terms, 60% per cent of India is being guaranteed 50% of the seats in the best educational institutions. Do the math. I have never been comfortable with minorityism. In fact, I have tended to anger Indian Muslims by asking them a difficult question: at what stage of their history did they become a minority? Were Muslims of North India a minority under Mughal rule two hundred years ago? Were the Muslims of Hyderabad a minority when the Nizam was in power sixty years ago? The answer is, no. In other words, a minority status is not a function of numbers; it is a function of empowerment. The Brahmin has a miniscule population and lives across all economic layers, but no Brahmin sees himself as a minority, because he is socially and politically empowered. But a good idea has been perverted by excess. If half the students of a quality institution are there because of quotas rather than intellectual ability then they will affect the quality of the institution. Instead of the institution raising the standards of the students, students will lower the standards of the institution. The young are not unreasonable; the old do not have a monopoly on wisdom. Students have accepted existing levels of quotas because they too can see its limited need. But students will not allow politics to drag their schools into a swamp. Politicians can think no further than the next elections. The young have their whole lives to consider. Young Michael Wonderville, United States
Apr 09, 2006 12:00 AM 12	Most times both articles and surely the responses blames politicians .... IMHO, politicians are quite a smart tribe and behave very objectively .... the key is to know what their objective is? Their objectives are 1. Get elected 2. Ensure during their term nobody usurps their "throne" 3. Ensure victory in next elections 4. Make enough money for self, progeny and party (in that order) 5. Ensure family rule can continue when they die (or get caught so that the "dead horse" law can be flogged to take it's own course). So obviously where is the time, energy and money left for enlightened work that people keep seeming to expect - suckers for punishment for expecting this so they keep getting the punishment due. To expect better from my perspective is rank stupidity because it's the nature of the beast and beasts respond naturally. Good people can't be a sustainable answer ... they will either be co-opted or ejected. Most people consider Manmohan Singh and Abdul Kalam as "good" variety of people. They have done squat and will only do squat or they will be ejected. Does one notice any difference from the age of feudalism - kings, queens and emporerors except once every x year during election. Having said this given all the other systems and their evils, democracy continues to the lesser of evil and some ray of hopefullness, and did well for the "west", so we will just have to see. Caste was the reason we were and are a flawed civilization and so why so much surprise that it remains the reason we will continue to be a flawed civilization. Just like in software, bad architecture will limit it's potential. So choice is either accept the limitations or re-architect. Both valid and reasonable options. Same here. Re-architecture is quite traumatic and risk prone, I don't think our society likes these sorts of solution. So accepting the limitations and hoping for minor improvements is the best option. The elite (and mostly from the upper caste) haven't done squat other than say government isn't doing enough and give them gyan on improving primary education and healthcare as the real answer. Do we really think government doesn't know this .... they know ..... it's just to expect from them a solution is where the stupidity lies. Instead couldn't anyone who earns Rs 1 crore and more in India, just say I will run a school cum primary health care center in one village. I assume one should be able to cover every village (or forget village do the same for the slum next to you). Since these sorts of things are unlikely to happen why crib when other stupid actions/policy are taken. I would say stupid action is anyday better than inaction. The enemy is within as always ... just like it's easier for politicians to do quotas, free this and that .... it's easier for the rest of us to treat politicians as punching bag and even disdain BUT they don't give a damn and are laughing all the way to the bank (swiss variety) and local watering hole (read bar) where they all (across the spectrum) meet at night and enjoy just like the rajas, maharajas, nawabs and what have you of the past and look down upon the ruled from a spectrum ranging from paternalism to disdain. In the meantime, good thing is I have enough time to prepare my savings nest to ensure my children don't have to worry about education in India. Anyways, it's mostly overrated and resting on weak foundations. Arun Maheshwari Bangalore, India
Apr 09, 2006 12:00 AM 13	Article in Sunday Indianexpress: http://www.indianexpres.../sunday/story/2092.html Arjun Singh has a problem Young Michael Wonderville, United States
Apr 09, 2006 12:00 AM 14	the recent increae in reservations does not affectthe likes of mr. arjun wand his ilk who anyways send their kids to study abroad . it asffects the majority left backwho as it is find it difficult to cope up with the shrinking number of seats and the ever rising prices of education in india. that too when wehave just a handfull of iits and iims rest of the education system stinks ofmalpractice and shoddy mismanagement. will the govt. ever do anything to improve the system? no not till the congress runsbehind the minority votes and the bjp swears to undo the injustice doneto hindu students. ameetbhuvan bhubaneswar, India
Apr 09, 2006 12:00 AM 15	The real problem associated with the reservation issue is that OBC/MBC/SC-ST candidates being selected under open merit lists are excluded from the reservation quotas. This ends up with the OBC group actually getting quite a percentage on open competition, asking for additional 27% to the exclusion of others. A better method would be to fill up all sanctioned seats as per merit list and then see how much of those selected thereby are from OBC. If this percentage exceeds 27% the parliamentary mandate will be deemed satisfied. In case it is less than 27%, additional sanctions/selections from the merit list may be made -down the line - until the OBC percentage becomes 27. Same approach may be made for SC-ST also. An upper limit of 20 % increase each year may have to be imposed, to ensure that facilities for training are not overburdened due to expansion of intakes. For the sake of social transparency, it is desirable that all selections for all institutions every year are published to indicate the percentages selected from various caste and minority categories, so that there is public awareness of realities, instead of politically inspired statements clouding the social vision. Scholarships/special tuitions can then be arranged for lagging groups by government or NGOs. . . v.seshadri chennai, india
Apr 09, 2006 12:00 AM 16	People get the govt. they deserve Till the middle class in India have this 'sab chalta hain' attitude and would rather sit at home playing cards or watching T.V. rather then vote on the election day, parties like Congress would keep getting voted back to power. Indians refuse to learn from history. The only effect the latest Arjun Singh's move would have is all intelligent, talented people would try to move out of India,if they can, for their higher education and reluctant to come back because they would want a good future for themselves and their children. Abhimanyu Mumbai, India
Apr 09, 2006 12:00 AM 17	the current controversy over the decision of the hrd ministry to reserve seats for obc had brought the word merit to the limelight again.what is merit?i am yet to get an answer for this after going thru many books,listening to lectures,debates and writing to great people who shout against reservations in the name of merit.hope the enlightened readers of outlook will provide an answer.i kindly ask the readers to name one post,seat in the world which is not RESERVED on the basis of place of birth,nationality etc(i read in news paper that the top most post in the world un gen secretary is now reserved this time for asians).the day when the iits and iims are open to anyone in the world including jews,scots,blacks etc we can talk of merit in objective terms.the topper in nagaland may get only60% and land up ith medicine,engg,law etc while the 1000th rank holder in delhi may have 90% and not get into any professional institutions.does it mean that the nagaland topper doesnt have merit.he is equally if not more meritorious to me as he will try to work/establish a industry/hospital in his home state unlike a high scoring fellow whose next step is to go to a still higher job/academy in usa/europe.replace the word nagaland withSC/ST/OBC and delhi with FC and u will find the logic behind the move to reserve seats.i am yet to come across anyone from iit,iim,aiims in the indian army.this is will defenitely change as there will be candidates now joining these institutes who are average in english and have to work immdtly after their graduation to support their families and will be looked down upon by the meritorious pvt sector(BECAUSE IT CONSISTS OF PEOPLE LIKE RATAN TATA,GODREJ,BAJAJ,AMBANI ETC WHO WERE ALL TOPPERS IN IIT,IIMS AND BECAME THE LEADERS PURELY ON MERIT,IRRESPECTIVE THEIR BIRTH).Backward classes are unfortunately a state within the current states and it is only reservation which is preventing a civil war.If reservation is denied than there is a defenite possibility of demands for sudraland,dalitistan etc where they have to compete amongst themselves and hence get into colleges on the basis of merit.the dalit entering thru resrvation in iits is a topper among more than 20lakh dalit students and if this is not merit than what is.real merit is absence of involvement of money power and unfortunately the current group of students who enter premier institutions make it purely of money power(THEY STUDY IN SCHOOLS WHICH CHARGE THOUSANDS OF FEES AND UNDERGO COACHING SPENDING SEVERAL THOUSANDS OF RUPEES).This is the reason for nil nobel laurates and any talented discoveries since its inception.the criteria of caste makes reservation look ugly and the proper documentation of individuals may help the govt to reserve seats on the basis of profession of parents,economic standards,place of study etc in future. finally it is caste based reservation which is helping in promoting intercaste marriages by making all caste people to study in higher institutes.the other simple solution to reservation is to marry their children to children belonging to reserved communities thus making everyone reserved leading to the natural death of reservation : ganapathi chennai, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 18	The MBCs should be made a separate category within the OBC. The MBCs are not reaping the proportionate benefits in OBC category. Kumar Bangalore, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 19	http://www.indianexpress.com/story/2155.html No mention of OBCs in Constitutional amendment; former CJI Khare says, “Never was there any mention of OBC in SC ruling” Young Michael Wonderville, United States
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 20	I understand the need for the upliftment of the socially and economically backward section of the society. It is in everybody's interests that all Indians are treated equally and have access to good education. However reservation in the present form and as proposed is difinitely not the way for it. All that reservation manages to do is to keep the caste system alive. The correct way I feel to go about achieving the upliftment would be to establish good schools with good faculty, mid-day meals etc with Govt. funding on a national level. These schools should admit only students from the economically and socially backward classes. Once these students have access to good education till the secondary level, I am sure they will be equally equipped to compete with any other candidate for admission in prestigious Universties. Grants of scholarship etc at a later stage exclusively for these students will help them bear the cost of further education better. I also feel Kanacha Illiah should be declared a terrorist and put behind bars. Any person who threatens a civil war publicly just because his narrow demands are not met can definitely be classified as a terrorist. Navdeep Hans Delhi, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 21	==> Ganapathi, You ask what is Merit. To cite an e.g., I alongwith numerous other aspirants had applied for IIM. The tough admission process weeded me out and instead selected students who were demonstrably better than me in certain skill sets. Did I feel bad. Of course I did. But did I consider the system unfair - No. Because I was given as much opportunity as the next person to qualify for a seat in a fair and transparent process. That my dear man is selection based on Merit. Yes like you mention certain posts like the head of UN etc are more based on reservation. And I feel it is o.k. Because UN is more of a representative organization and reservation in such context I feel is o.k as I feel it is also o.k. in politics. But certain areas where certain skill sets are required like business, sports etc, selection by Merit is the best way forward to achieve a competitive edge. That is why most family run organizations now understand the value of hiring professional to run their organization. Navdeep Hans Delhi, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 22	Another one of tricks from Congress hat. Dont know when these guys would learn anything. It feels that I am somehow unwanted here in India. Babus in Delhi always miss to notice the future being scripted in Bangalore,Chennai, Hyderabad and Pune. First they make diffult for us who are riding the "unreserved" compartment to clear entrance exams. Some how we manage to sneak into a bachelors course, then by a lot of hard work and luck we get into masters. Somehow manage to finsh the degree in distinction or merit and land up with "plush" jobs in Bangalore. However the misery doesnt end here. Babus want to have reservations in Private Sector as well. Nice idea, what next??? reservations in promotions??? Criteria like: Only candidates with 10 years work experience can become project managers in open catagory. However reserved employees can do it in 6 years. Hahaha and would the companies be risking developing applications for clients, applications which do Billions of dollars of transactions every month and let the project be handled by "reserved" Project Manager?? Maybe Government can risk it with government doctors but the corporates wont and shouldnt. Wake up old babu and "loser" Arjun Singh...the discard of Vindhya. Now for the other minister, esteemed Mr. Chidambaram (Two face blood sucker). Wants us to pay for the highways (2% cess on petrol), pay for the education (2% of the total income cess), pay for the airports (Rs500 cess on every ticket), pay for state government education (2% of the property value for any property more than 10 lacs). If we are paying for everything then where's governments' allocation going? Does anyone tries to find out? He wants us (honest taxpayers) to manage his country's finance. Can I take your job too Mr.C? :) I have taken millions of jobs from US and Europe..i am a champion at outsourcing. Jokes apart, his policy is simple suck the honest taxpayers dry. Dunno which freaking foriegn Univ he went to...had he payed more attention at school he would have known about killing the golden goose story. 250 million+ middle class they say to Bush. Middle finger to you from this middle class!!! Vishal Sharma Bangalore, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 23	At a time when india is making the mark for its knowledge base this step is incomprehnsible and designed to take us back to the dark ages. smita purushottam London, UK
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 24	Today it is MM Joshi who is having the last laugh be'coz he did want to bring in some kind of help to all these IIM & IIT & their student's his but the caretaker's of these Institutes thought that he was trying to curb their power. In some way yes but not in the the manner what Arjun singh & Company has done . Today i feel the Indian middle class has been stranded beaten red & blue & left to wander in the scorching sun without water anywhere. But this is what they really deserve , Had they taken little bit of pain come out in the sun for an hour or two to vote , they wud not have to face this irony. But then Saab chaalta hai to yeh bhi chalega. till the time they they are to scre&*^% to a point where they have nothing but their clothes left on their body .UNHEIN AKAL NAHI AAYEGI. Vijayant Sharma Nagpur, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 25	Naveen Hans says "The correct way I feel to go about achieving the upliftment would be to establish good schools with good faculty, mid-day meals etc with Govt. funding on a national level. These schools should admit only students from the economically and socially backward classes." Great theory and nobody can disagree. But I think there are two problems. One schools dedicated to the "disadvantaged" are bound to become worse by and large than the government schools today are. Secondly, given Government hasn't solved this problem is sufficient number of years since independence, why keep wanting government driven solutions. One way I can think of Government schools improving is tying their destiny to the destiny of politicians/bureaucrats destiny. So the progeny of our politicians/bureaucrats MUST attend a government school and it must be the government school in their consitituency or place of posting. If this can be put in law and enforced, I guarantee the government schools will improve otherwise it will a lot of talk and hot air. The big question is can it be done. I don't think so. What's the way out ... private initiative? If the intersection of elite/upper-class/upper-caste truly believe in what you said - ".... need for the upliftment of the socially and economically backward section of the society. It is in everybody's interests that all Indians are treated equally and have access to good education." - then it time to act directly - forget government. Only one I have heard doing this is Asim Premji who has an initiative - don't know how good or it's real impact. Otherwise, we must accept that a badly architected society, which we are, can only be bandaged to avoid it completely blowing in our face and one of the bandages will be sops like reservation, free this and free that. Arun Maheshwari Bangalore, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 26	==> Arun, I understand your concern regarding the well being of a govt. funded school. But then note IIT's, IIM's, Kendriya Vidyalaya etc are all Govt. funded institutions and all these institutions have turned out to be excellent centres for higher learning. Today IIT's, IIM's are recognized for a certain value they have created. By trying to enforce reservation here, we will only end up destroying these institutions. Instead the better option would be to withdraw govt. funding from these institutions as these institutions can now stand on their own legs and instead divert the funds etc.to create educational centres for the disadvantaged section of the society. The Govt. has to be held responsible and accountable by everyone for the same because after all aren't the innumerable cess being collected by Indians meant for schemes such as these. Navdeep Hans Delhi, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 27	Arun, Even the private initiative does not work. I know of places in Bangalore where big apartment complexes are coming up have horrible approach roads. Builders have agreed to make the roads on build and transfer basis. However, the corporation does not appear to be keen on the idea. They just want the money from builders and they claim that they would make roads. Everyone knows the reason why...they have their "preferred" contractors. Public private partnership here is limited to getting money from private sector. If I buy a apartment, i pay registration, VAT etc. Should i not demand QoS. As consumers we are being taken for a ride by government and its stooges. Obviously its my fault. I have never voted. How can I? Got my voters card 10 years back. For more than a decade I have been away from home, working in different cities, countries. How do i give my vote?Does the government want me to take a 3 hour flight and a 14hr train ride, so that i go home and vote.Why not make investments in streamlining voting system where in i can go to the nearest booth irrespective of which state I am in. What is BJP doing about it? It claims to have middle class as its vote bank. Coming back to reservations, it is obviously a bad idea. Reservation should be strictly on economic basis not on caste class. If a OBC babu's kid gets a reserved seat at IIT and a poor uppercast person has to slog even to make endsmeet, its not done. This is reverse castesim. Politicians should understand the mistakes of division. Why to divide an already divided society. Why not promote intercaste marriages and give tax benifits and other incentives to such couples? Had something like this been done before instead of myopic policies we would've had a generation of people who would've not been of any class. Vishal Sharma Bangalore, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 28	If you see the list of castes which come under reservation rule, it runs into thousands and many more are thumping their chest wanting to be recognized as backward( it happens only in India). In India politicians win elections promosing to take the people (castes)backward!! I think the best idea is to create a quota for merit which very satisfactorily achieves the latest policy's objective which is not the upliftment of the downtrodden but pushing down the so called upper guys sridhar Bangalore, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 29	Naveen .... My view is that IITs and IIMs were government funded but they had a degree of autonomy driven by the fact that initially they had foreign collaborations, national level, support from topmost quarters (Nehru), and probably run by people who pushed the envelope of autonomy. Also because the elite/upper-class/upper-caste cared for it in direct or indirect ways as their primary schools needs were fulfilled by affordable private schools. Primary school education didn't get the attention and it has been a disaster. Kendriya Vidyalya are doing well because they are tied to an institution like the armed service and in fact where even the brasses children attend. In fact Kendriya Vidyalaya was the model for my suggestion on how if at all government schools can improve - if the brasses (big chiefs) children attend they will make sure it is good. Simple. As regards, your suggestion on removing government funding .... sure ... but in a strange sort of way the government wouldn't want because they use these institutions to show they can get somethings right. The kind of accountability we (and I assume safe to say the middle class) want from government can only happen once the bulge of the bell curve is the middle class. That some ways off. Though that's why many times on this forum my point has been that democracy and growing economy suggest might be the salvation and break from our past we need. Arun Maheshwari Bangalore, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 30	Vishal says .... "Arun, Even the private initiative does not work. I know of places in Bangalore where big apartment complexes are coming up have horrible approach roads. Builders have agreed to make the roads on build and transfer basis. However, the corporation does not appear to be keen on the idea. They just want the money from builders and they claim that they would make roads. Everyone knows the reason why...they have their "preferred" contractors. Public private partnership here is limited to getting money from private sector." Absolutely, private initiative isn't guaranteed to work either but my point is something other than government initiative is needed. Government cannot solve the problem .... even if we had "good" one which I think is dreaming the wrong thing to start with. Also, note I didn't mean private-public partnership (PPP). I don't think PPP can work as a general rule until we have re-balancing of the power dynamics between state and citizen. It's premature today by and large but may be someday in the future. I was thinking more on lines with powerful industry body (FICCI, etc.) and powerful industrialists (Tata, Birla, Wipro, Infosys types)kickstarting this and these are powerful enough (or teflon coated) that the government would at least grundingly let them go on. Arun Maheshwari Bangalore, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 31	It's great to see all these upper caste trolls yelling their tiny heads off over the reservation for OBCs in IITs and IIMs policy. Suddenly they are pointing to OBC atrocities against Dalits, which they cared damn all about until now. They are calling for good education at primary level for all Indians, instead of reservation: why did they take no interest in that before? Some upper caste goons are threatening to burn themsleves alive, little realising that the rest of India couldn't care less. The upper castes should go to Pakistan. India belongs to the majority, i.e. the OBCs, the Dalits, and Tribals. They have plenty of children; the upper castes are literally dying out, aborting female foetuses. Look how even the BJP is supporting the reservation move. They are realistic. The upper castes are a minority and cannot control India. This move by Congress is excellent, because it will force the amazingly selfish upper castes to promote mass education for the poor. Well done, Arjun Singh ! Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 32	But come to think of it there is an astonishingly simple solution for Brahmins nad other Hindu upper castes who want to get their chil;dren into IITs and IIMs. Strange that no-one on this website has noticed it. It's so easy: The Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vishyas ahould all choose their brides or hubands from Dalits and Tribals. Then the children will be on an equal footing in all situations involving "reservations". Since, as all Sanata Dharma supporters will tell you, being upper caste in Hinduism does not involve athe slightest prejudice against lower castes and Dalits or Tribals, there is no problem at all. Everyone should be happy. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 33	Ramdas of Uganda .... says "This move by Congress is excellent, because it will force the amazingly selfish upper castes to promote mass education for the poor. Well done, Arjun Singh !" You are right .... hope this indeed is "intended consequence". However, I am a believer in the law of "unintended consequences" but nonetheless Arjun Singh might unintendedly achieve this. Also, on the other suggestion on marriage ... brilliant suggestion. Arranged marriage is probably one of the institutions developed to re-inforce caste .... so it's breakdown or use in the way you suggest might just be the stroke of genius. Arun Maheshwari Bangalore, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 34	==> Ramdas, You say that 'the upper castes are a minority and cannot control India." True. But then why do you need reservation, can't you compete like everybody else. The admission process of IIT's and IIM's are the most transparent in India today and nobody can accuse them of discrimination on the basis of caste. So why have reservation for a section of people that clearly do not seem disadvantaged going by your statements. You are obviously behaving like a sore looser. However I do believe that there are disadvantaged sections in our society who do not have access to services like the vast middle class do. Reservation instead of reaching out to these sections will only end up helping the well of undeservedly. Only if the state treats its citizens equally will the citizens be encouraged to treat other with mutual respect . An evil practice cannot be destroyed by bringing about another evil practice. Navdeep Hans Delhi, India
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 35	Navdeep Hans, spare us your ingratiating upper caste pieties. The OBCs are not fools. The OBC, Dalits and Tribals are a majority in India, and will increasingly act to get the upper castes out of ALL positions of power which they have monopolised for thousands of years. This is going to be a tough and ruthless struggle. There are many OBCs I know in India who are not satisfied with 49.5 per cent reservation. They say, quite frankly: As soon as there is a sufficient pool of qualified OBC, Dalit and Tribal candidates for the ITTs, IMMS, IAS, etc etc, why not impose 100 per cent reservation? To me that seems a bit extreme; I think poor upper caste students should be given a modest reservation. It is hilarious to see all you so so so snobbish upper castes suddenly waking up to the advantages of marrying Dalits and Tribals, and also seeing the importance of good education for all ! This guy Arjun Singh is my hero of heroes. He is FORCING the incredibly selfish Hindu upper castes to open their caste-blinded eyes and to get some intelligent thoughts into their thick conceited skulls....BRAVO, ARJUN SINGH !!!!! You needn't hope the BJP will rescue the upper castes from this trap. They know that OBCs are the key to election victories in India. They don't want to committ electoral sucide. So, you upperccastes, just keep aborting female foetuses and hiding from the sun on election day..... You could, of course, join up with somebody else and make quite a powerful coalition: THE MUSLIMS. Ta ta, you "wheatish-complexioned" fellas!!!! See you in Texas!!! Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 36	My prediction is that among the most die-hard chaddi-Hindutvawadi-Hindi-Hindu-Hindustan-safron types - the ones puking cow's urine from the ears - there will soon be an amazing upsurge of PRO-MUSLIM, PRO-PSEUDO-SECULAR sentiment: when these upper caste types realise that they have to join nthe Muslims to fight the OBCs after arjun Singh's smart IIM and IIT reservation move !!! Hee heee heee ! What fun ! all those Shankars and Young Michaels and Abhimanyus and amybe even Lalit Bagai !!! Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 37	Abhimanyu I know that all the people I know in Delhi go out to vote. However for every such a person, there are a dozen who can not read or write. How does one solve this problem. And if you observe how people are in states like Bengal, Bihar, UP I am sure you will give up India,s smart and brilliant people are grossly out numbered. And even in this debate forums there are quite a few awfully dismal characters. Lets not be too ambitious about India. There is a tremendous head wind against it. This country is beset by a number of very serious problems, for which there is no cure. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 38	Ramdas Bhajanbhai Amidst the jungles of the dark continent we see this shiny light, our friend Ramdas Bhajanbhai. The most effective escape for upper classes is to emigrate to the west. And from all accounts lots are already heading for USA shores. Leave Bharat for the sons and daughters of the soil, the shakulars, minorities and so forth. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 39	In reality the clevare students will be forced to study in lesser known universeties, and colleges, but will do very well. Clever people will always manage to shine, and the second rate will not do so well. Ultimately merit will be proved and reqarded in the market place. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 40	Lalitbhai, a few days ago it rained a lot during the night and the next morning I went out to play a bit of golf. Our golf course here in Jinja is incredibly spectacular, running right along the high heavily overgrown bakns of the Nile, so that you look down on the huge powerful river swirling along way down. However, I soon found that my ball had got into a kind of small muddy pit. Then I found a lot of similar muddy pits, leading away like footprints. And I realised that that was just what they were: hippo footprints. Since I knew that it was the custom for players on this course to be allowed to pick the ball out of hippo footprints, I was OK. It's quite fun here in Darkest Africa. The most troublesome aspect is the level of crime. So you are worried about the fate of the twice-born in the era of Arjun Singh? Not to worry. they have at least two easy courses of action: 1.They can marry Dalits and Tribals. This will be no hardship as we know upper caste Hindus have no prejudices against lower caste ones. 2. They can form a political alliance with the Muslims and, possibly, the Dalits and Triblas, thus isolating the OBCs. Simple ! It won't be easy for the OBCs to counter such moves. If you upper castes don't mind getting chummy with jihadis, that is. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 10, 2006 12:00 AM 41	Lalitbhai, don't forget, in any case, that that summit of jurisprudential intellect -coruscating, scintillating, transcendent, luminiscent, exhilarating and resplendent! - Ram Jethmalani, has eloquently argued in favour of the reservations. Where such an one has spoken, who shall dare to contradict? Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 42	The upper caste hullaballoo about Arjun Singh's reservation plan is sheer abominable self-serving hypocrisy. One should not believe them for a moment when they snivel that they are thinking of India's good. These upper class types are the most selfish persons ever born and are the last to thionk of India's good. They have ALWAYS betrayed India. The upper caste propaganda idea that India can progress by becoming a "talent pool" overlooks the question: pool for whom? Just a lot of snobbish upper caste types scooting off to California? Who says a hundred thousand software engineer who get, let us say, an average of 70 per cent marks are worse for India's development that 20,000 who get 95 per cent marks but half of whom leave india for good anyway? Who says that a large pool of not absolutely first-rate talent is not better for India than a small pool of very good talent? If they can't go abroad, that is a bonus: Indian investment in them won't be wasted and they can help the home economy to grow. A large number of competent enginners and other professionals to tackle the problems of India's masses is what India needs, not a small bunch of super-super-duper whiz kids who go off to California and whose billions, supposing they are a great success, never reach the Indian poor. India should concentrate on the needs of the masses to develop harmoniously. as for the upper castes: let them claer off to where they belong: Pakistan. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 43	I would be surprised if there are even 10% of Indians who would oppose 49.5% reservations in educational institutions and probably even with reservations in private sector (there may be micro level differences like whether MBC should be a separate category etc). The ST/SC/OBC who constitute about 80% of population should have occupied in the approximate range of 80% of seats. But today their representation is negligible (except where there is reservation already). The Industry representatives discussing with Group Of Ministers on the issue of reservations in private sector agreed in an issued statement, that merit is not a natural phenomenon but shaped by social circumstances. To suggest that reservation should be merely based on economic status alone is therefore incorrect. It mischievous is to construe the entire issue of fairness in representation as merely a populist measure for votes (though many may have that aspect in mind). It is unfortunate that the less than 10% of people who oppose reservations do not want (the most meritorious of the) 80% of the population from occupying even 50% of seats and representation in other walks of life. In case of Mandal-I, the congress and the BJP were the anti-mandal parties. In mandal-2, Congress is the one introducing it and BJP would have been no where without its OBC leaders. Kumar Bangalore, India
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 44	Maulana Arjun Singh,s policies will encourage bright young Indians to study and work abroad. Thats the way I see this happened with some of the young uns in my family. And frankly though its USA and not India which will get the best talent, at least our bright kids will get a chance to develop their talent, and live a full life in the USA. ASingh will ensure the slide of India into mediocraty. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 45	Mr Kumar you know what will happen. 1. As soon as this reservation goes through. IITs and IIMs will die its natural death in 10 years. 2. Institutions like ISB will flourish because the fees will be very high and no poor person will be able to pay for it, but there are enough rich people around in this india to create 3-4 ISBs and replace IIMs. 3. For IITs it will mar our technical prowess for sometime but again private technical institutions like BITs pilani or IIIT or Dhirubhai ambani institute will start attracting huge chunck of indian talent into there bossom and with good payment to faculty, faculty will also start moving away from IITs. Simply speaking these OBCs will be studying in third grade institutions called IITs and IIMs while the richer and more resourceful people will move on to bigger better institutions. Nobody can stop the flow of water not even a mountain leave alone this corrupt government. Abhishek Abhishek Drolia Raipur, India
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 46	If the congress wins the next general elections guess they will also reserve key positions for monkeys alongside the backwards in the PSUs graduated from reserved educational institutions so that they can follow Sonia's and other western commands! The only long term answer to this monkey business started by our spineless politicians is to break up the country into 2 parts: a) Bhimdesh and b) Brahmadesh. The former will have 100% reservations for backwards and also monkeys if they become smart enough to demand so while the Brahmadesh will automatically have 100% reservations for the upper castes. And let Bhimdesh be located where the demographic population of the backwards is maximum. The Brahmadesh can be on the western part of India where a fairly large chunk of population is non-backward... Nikhil Pune, India
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 47	80% population gets 80% oppurtunities. Fair deal. Democratic too. India ( as in its people ) needs equality more than immesurable wealth to the top 10%. We should not (and cannot) become act as a wealthy country as long as the 80% struggle. No matter what the hyper techies from the IITs and the mgmt gurus from IIMs and those benefitted by them say, the majority of people have to get majority stake in the country ot there will be hell to pay. BTW, you will need an inkling of history to get the right perspective here. ravikant seattle, United States
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 48	Ravikant .... the key learning from history is also to find the right balance between re-distribution and growth. Re-distribution without growth is the path we were on for a long time (and probably most socialist/communist countries) which didn't work. Growth with laizze-faire trickle down, possibly the path we are on today, will also not sustain but provides us the time and window of opportunity to find a better balance between growth and proactive trickle-down/re-distribution. My question has been given the very unjust and unequal architecture of our society (hence We The People) can we find the balance fast enough. My faith is in Democracy as a process (Catalytic Mechanism) will force the balancing since status-quo won't be the option given political re-balancing is far ahead of economic re-balancing. Arun Maheshwari Bangalore, India
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 49	Abhishek .... Hard to say what will or not happen to specific institutes. I am sure game theory experts can have a field day but for folks like me the processes are too complex to hazard a guess. However, it is safe to say that on this issue it will be zero-sum game between "lower middle class/poor upper-caste" and "lower castes". The "middle middle class/upper middle class/rich upper castes" will find a way (as you say a flowing river does). And in all possible scenarios the one beneficiary will always be what is now-a-days termed as the creamy layer of the lower caste (most of them would be politicians and bureaucrats or their near and dear ones). No wonder this would be the preferred solution to the problem. In which case, at least I hope that our economically savvy PM (and supposedly good President) ask for a way to ensure the creamy layer doesn't just get creamier due to reservations. I say it but I not hopeful one because it's asking for too much and secondly I am always afraid the more rules in India means more things to break - so the creamy layer also like a river will find it's ways. This is when I get Hindu and Karmic and say ... "we get what we deserve" and find irony and humour in "karma reversed" (pay for the sins of our ancestors which we ourselve might have been in an earlier birth). Nikhil from Pune says ".... The Brahmadesh can be on the western part of India where a fairly large chunk of population is non-backward...". I assume west will include Pune :-). Safe to also assume west can't be Bangalore :-) Hope you have got permission from the RSS (I recall being told it's the birthplace of RSS) for the 2nd partition :-) Arun Maheshwari Bangalore, India
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 50	Arun, the problem with what happened in india since independance is that the redistribution was a hoax. Did not happen. But, by nature a democracy gives power to the many. For the people who see today the widening gap, in education and oppurtunity, equality as a benefit of benevolent capitalism does not look promising. The imbalance and injustice is too high for patient long range solutions. Redistribution nhas to work with growth eve if that means a marginal slow down in growth. For the guy who has been wronged, the remedy has to me more instant. And so will be the pain on the class that holds all the cards today. On the short term, it is a zero sum game. We have to grow while respecting the aspirations of our people. Else, capitalism takes over democracy. Remember that democracy/capitalism isnt a resounding success its just that communism failed more spectacularly. You only have to look at the US to see the capitalism part of it taking over the democracy. In india the sooner the 80% realize that they are not getting their share, the more drastic the socio-economic change will be. And hopefully it will be peaceful as our democracy legitimately gives them the power. I agree with you that finding the balance is pivotal here. But I think that we are not moving fast enough towards social justice to maintain a just balance. ravikant seattle, United States
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 51	Ravikant You are in the wrong country. In USA you are expected to do well on your own. Thats the way it is in China, Russia and all the old communis countries. Most people who do well, do so because of their own efforts. And the wealth they create is not enough to pass on to the overwhelming numbers of poor. The system of redistribution you support has been tried and failed. Smarter people at the head of the older communists countries realise this. That you do not, is a peronal failure of knowledge and intelligence. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 52	Ravikant ... "Arun, the problem with what happened in india since independance is that the redistribution was a hoax. Did not happen." True it was hoax in that people bought (and many people genuinely believed) in the idea BUT there are sound human phsycology and economic reasons why re-distribution without growth CANNOT work. "Redistribution has to work with growth even if that means a marginal slow down in growth." Like I said that is the trick avoiding the slippery slope of "slowing down" growth. The Europeans and Americans achieved for their populations early on (at the time they were homogenous too), on the back of colonies (europeans) and native americans (americans), essentially by exploiting the other population (and their labour and resources). We uniquely I think exploited (and probably for the longest period) a large section of "our" own. Or, were they really "us", or as per one theory there really was this "us" and "them" due to aryans colonizing this landmass a very very long time ago. And unlike the Europeans who colonized a separate landmass and didn't become part of that or the Americans who decimated the natives to practically nothing, our colonial past was this organization into castes which as it turns out was a very covert, corrosive, deep rooted and longest running discrimination system which itself covertly ate into us, made us weak and colonizable and colonized by others. Full circle and still biting and eating our inards. Gotta pay for our sins right here. Oh well .... sorry don't where I am going with this!! Arun Maheshwari Bangalore, India
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 53	The rich and the talented have done well in India,because they are smart and savvy. What ever ASingh and the bandarsena does, they will continue to do well. Maybe they will settle in certain states where there are fewer minorities, and the governments are friendly towards them, The central government can only do so much to promote or retard progress. One example is East Africa. Ida Amin Dada and the others like him ejected Asians from there. The nett result is that Uganda has lots more hippoes and few engineers and doctors. Something like that will happen to India. Frankly I would advise any bright Indians to study and settle down abroad. Why fight for a pittance in a battle with thousands of backwards. Let them keep it all. India will slide to mediocraty but it has that comeing. Maybe Indians like the jews will be spectacularly sucessful in the West. Its better do do well in the USA rather then the constant gripeing and moaning with the secualr and leftist acadamics. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 54	What a lot of hysterical nonsense. Just because you upper castes are asked to let the lower castes have a part in what is going on, it doesn't mean the world is ending. Upper caste Hindus due to their utterly rotten caste mentality have a cussedly elitist way of looking at all social issues. As far as they are concerned, social issues are well taken care of if their "wheaten complexioned" upper caste carcases are comfortable. The rest of the Indians can go to hell. Or wait a million lifetimes for "gradual" improvement. Notice that no-one has told us what has been the result of the EXISTING reservation for SCs/STs in the IIMs and IITs. That would have given us a good clue as to the likely effects of reservation for the OBCs. Even with 50 per cent reservation for OBCs, 50 per cent is still left for the uppercastes to contest freely. Some of the present seats - let us guess 20 per cent - may already be held by OBCs in open competition. So in the caste-based seats, about the same proportion of OBCs will get the present passing level of marks. No doubt the upper castes will need now to get a higher level to pass. But the lowering of standards will only happen in about 30 per cent of seats. And OBCs do have brains; there are huge numbers of them. Many more may apply if they get the hope of a place. That will push UP standards of passing even in the reserved OBC seats. So I say again: what IS all the fuss about "falling standards" about? It can only be very limited and temporary at worst. India needs many millions of engineers; not a handful of Brahmin whizz kids scooting off to America. No-body used such elitist language in the USSR when it trained millions of engineers in the 1930s - people whoo built the Russian industrial might that won the Second World War. Quit frothing like jackasses, you upper castes. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 55	Bhajanbhai I wonder whether the congressis will step in and stop rich kids from studying abroad. One can never be sure about these crazies. To Kumar. Do you think that rich and sucessful people have a innate duty to help the 800 million backwards. Of these there are 150 million muslims who are determined to go the wrong way, as is evident not just in India , but also in Pakistan and elsewhere. And after that they should help the people of Pakistan and Bangladesh too. And break relations with the west to please the leftists and M,s. Take a hike buddy, Even China has given up on these unrealistic dreams. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 56	Lalitbhai, just because you have given up on the overwhelming majority of Indians doesn't mean they can afford to sit down and die or wait a billion billion incarnations while your fat "what-complexioned" upper caste crew are ruling the roost and showing off. You upper castes are sold on an inhumanly elitist vision of economic development because your religion tells you that most people outside your caste are just dirt on the ground. Just open your caste-blinded eyes and see how OTHER countries went about industrialising. Japan, Russia, Germany, the USA, in their industrialising phase, gave central importance to MASS training of millions of fairly competent enginneers and other technicians. They were not satisfied with producing a few tens of thousands of upper calss "geniuses", a large portion of whom went off abroad. That is the crazily elitist solution you want for India. So WHAT if the passing marks at IITs and IIMs decline a bit temporarily? Provided they turn out MANY more reasonably qualified people, that is better for the Indian economy than training a handful of brahminical geniuses whose fortunes are usually made abroad and do not put food into poor Indians' stomachs. You are living in an upper caste fantasy world. My hippoes are more beautiful and have more sense than upper caste Indians. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 57	These upper castes are hell-bentb on an economy which is "For the Minority, By the Minority, Of the Minority". They want to train super-excellent braminical "geniuses" who go off to America and are either never heard of again by the middle class Indian taxpayer who paid for their education, or set up businesses in India that typically do not increase the levels of employment of ordinary Indians. Thus a purely elitist "America-in-India" economy is created cutting out the vast mass of Indians but ruthlessly using up the natural resources that this mass has always depended on for survival: like water and wood. This is a very dangerously unequal type of development,leading the mass of poor with no option in the end but the naxalites. India does not need these snobbish "centres of excellence", really. What it needs are many averagely good colleges that will turn out the tens of millions of reasonably competent engineers and other techinical staff India will need for its industrialisation. All this chatter about India's functioning as a super-duper "talent pool" is purely elitist drivel. This elitist model of economy will soon blow up in the stupid faces of its worshippers. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 58	>> "India does not need these snobbish "centres of excellence", really. What it needs are many averagely good colleges that will turn out the tens of millions of reasonably competent engineers and other techinical staff India will need for its industrialisation." Actually, we need both, and there is no reason that both can't co-exist. Why should the level of an excellent institute be moderated to merely good, when it can and has been existing at an elite level? The quota debate obfuscates two issues. For one, institutes in India enjoy much lower level of autonomy than in other places. Premier ones have been relatively insulated so far, but as the dabbling of MM Joshi and Arjun Singh indicates, it is changing. The government, as the major financer, may feel that it has a right to do so, but is not good for the health of the Universities in the long run. Academic institutes can help themselves by raising more resources. Secondly, the quota debate has easily taken a forward-backward debate. That was probably the whole idea of Arjun Singh to begin with. Divide Hindus, so that his communal acts don't attract strong criticism. Lot of people on this boards know, but shall not admit, that the new quota shall not benefit the really needy. Most of the people who shall get in via quotas shall be average students with rich dads. The rich smart ones don't need quotas, and the poor smart ones shall likely not be able to make it due to lack of resources. There shall be exceptions, but few. A point often raised by proponents of reservation is that the social and economic profile has a strong co-relation, and hence, having a social criteria is same as having an economic one. If it is actually true (had heard it repeatedly during Mandal. Don't know if it was accurate then, and if it is true now), then why not have economic criteria? Al Bundy San Francisco, United States
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 59	Al Bundy: Why do the upper castes and other supposedly "disinterested India lovers" like Prakash Bhanu Mehta only kick up an unholy row when there is a suggestion that these so-called elitist "centres of excellence" wholly dominated by the upper castes should dilute their standards a little to bring in other castes? Why don't they howl and yell or even whimper a little about the Government's failure to build the many "good" engineering and other technical colleges the economy so badly needs? You are probably right that giving the OBCs more access to these elite institutions will not solve the problems of the vast majority. But it will at least break up the cosy upper caste club that these institutions are at present. To be brutally frank, if it is a matter of either the upper castes dominating these places and picking the plums or the OBCs doing so, the OBCs cannot be blamed for fighting for their side tooth and nail. The upper castes are only a small minority in India; they are going to be steadily and ruthlessly ousted in the coming few decades from ALL positions of power and profit. India belongs to the OBCs, Dalits and Tribals. Make no mistake. You upper castes are howling because the logic of caste is now being turned against you. Too bad. You are used to being top-dog and showing off. Well, that is now ending. Tough. And you have not had the guts to answer my main question: In what way do elitist Colleges hold the answer for bettering the condition of the Indian masses? Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 60	Ravikant The numbers of the poor are going up fast. A poor country like India can do its best Its either a failed attemp at social justice like that tried in the Eastern states, or progress for the fittest, and a good life for say 40 % of the population. here is nothing odious in this. If the poor want progress then they have to control their numbers. Thats the very least. Why are Indians such suckers and namby pambies. Get to accept the hard facts of life. Number one lesson is survival of the fittest. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 61	bhajanbhai I went to a middleing University in England and that did not stop me from being a great sucess as I have informed everyone. I would never have qualified getting into a first rate univesity, and I accept this. Why the hell cant OBC, and others do the sme as I did. I dislike the principle of getting something unless I deserve it. And the problems of plcaces can be solve by identifyeing 10 or more tier two schools in record time, and give them a large shot of resources. Leave the IIT,s alone. They are just one of the a few things that India can be proud of. Next you will ask for admission of your hippoes into MIT. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 11, 2006 12:00 AM 62	Ravikant Here is the male verion of Arundhati Roy, Lots of hot air, and no sense of reality. Unless we get Jesus Christ , miracles like feeding the hungy and cureing the blind dont happen these days. Just try and devide the food India produces, the water that is available amongt the 800 million poor, and you will change your mind. And we are not talking about school, clinics and so forth. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 63	Lalit, I am not talking about social justice that should come by consensus. I am talking about the one that will come no matter what you think. If you divide what we have across the population, the inidividual share will be small. But if you dont, do you think the people who are not getting their share will just think 'thats life!' and continue? In that case why cant you accept the reservations as that is life. The operating principle should be either the majority prospers or no one does. I take your comparision with Ms Roy as a compliment. ravikant seattle, United States
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 64	>> "The upper castes are only a small minority in India; they are going to be steadily and ruthlessly ousted in the coming few decades from ALL positions of power and profit. India belongs to the OBCs, Dalits and Tribals. Make no mistake." I would like to think that India belongs to all, including the upper castes. Also, while you may not like to hear this, since it negates your well entrenched prejudices that you are so fond of flaunting, lot of upper castes, particularly the younger generation, do not care about the castes of their fellow students, and often don't know it either. I don't want to make too sweeping a generatlization, since my first hand experience is limited to only the universities I attended. They happened to be "elitist", and I guess that most of the students there were upper castes. Most were certainly rich or middle/upper middle class, and if the co-relation about social and economic profile, that proponents of reservation keep harping on is true, then most would be upper castes too. I still don't know the castes of many of my friends, and lot of others don't either. >> "You upper castes are howling because the logic of caste is now being turned against you." Well, it can be easily said that the incompetent creamy layer of the OBCs is pushing for this, since they shall be able to grab all the benefits, and continue their dominance and lordship over the Dalits and the MBCs. It is easy to sit in front of the machine and type any junk. It takes effort to get into one of the good institutes, which, unfortunately, some people don't want to put in. In a democracy, every group has a right to put forth their views. The OBCs have a right to make themselves heard, just as the upper castes. If issues are ultimately decided by brute majority, and results in reservation (likely), so be it. I personally feel, that it shall be detrimental to India in the long run. As for benefits of such institutes, I think they are primarily responsible for giving India its current edge in a knowledge economy. Some people like to say that it hasn't helped real India, and I think that is a load of bull shit. You are free to disagree with this assessment though. Al Bundy San Francisco, United States
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 65	>> "Why don't they howl and yell or even whimper a little about the Government's failure to build the many "good" engineering and other technical colleges the economy so badly needs?" Ramdas, Sorry, missed responding to this earlier. I don't know about Prakash Mehta and his motivations. However, there are a whole lot of commentators, who have been screaming for a long time for better ground level facilities for all students. Read Tavleen Singh's articles in IE if you get a chance. This is one of her pet subjects. The reason it doesn't happen is that it is much more difficult to implement. For lazy people like Arjun and V.P Singh, it is easy to pass a law providing reservations, rather than working towards building good schools and colleges. Guess no one shall deny that caste conciousness is a reality in India. From time to time we hear of ugly violence against Dalits, and most marriage ads mention the caste and sub-caste. However, such differences are reducing with urbanization. Does one know or care about the caste of the person who is standing next to you in a crowded bus or train, or one who last drank water/juice from the glass at the roadside vendor? If you ever get up to offer your seat to an elderley person, do you ask his/her caste? People who benefit from it (I guess that includes you), make every effort to keep it alive, so that they continue to receive benefits. If it is at the cost of people who actually deserve it, even if they are poor people of their own caste, they couldn't care less. Al Bundy San Francisco, United States
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 66	>> "India belongs to the OBCs, Dalits and Tribals" Another interesting point I have noted is the tendency of the OBC groups to include the support of Dalits in their claims. Have they ever bothered to check if Dalits share these feelings, or if they feel that their more genuine grievances get diluted when clubbed with the more affluent, privileged and politically powerful OBCs? Intrestingly, at the political level, Dalits and OBCs seem to share strong antagonism. In UP, Mayawati is the undisputed Dalit leader, and Mulayam Singh Yadav, the most powerful OBC leader. They hate each other to no end. Similar scenario repeats in Bihar with Paswan and Laloo. Could it have been, if the social constituencies were so closely aligned? Al Bundy San Francisco, United States
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 67	To the bleeding hearts and the hypocrites Wealth and progress is made by a small elite which is naturally endowed. Look at the USA. Apple computers was foundd by Steve Jobs, and Microsoft by Bill Gates. In India progress is due to a small clan, who are resposible for building a soft ware export industry totalling 25 billion USD. Its rideculous that these people should be discouraged in the cause of social justice. See what happened to Bengal. All the bright guys left. In the days of globalisation talent will go where it is best rewarded. The bright guys will wander of to the USA. The USA attempted social justice, but it did not provide admissions for the dead beat in MIT and Harward. However its impossible argueing with these brain dead commies. They can not make it on their own, and are useing their numbers to get unfair advantages. In the end it will not help them , They will be marked for life as the second raters. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 68	Laltbhai and Bundy, countries like India which have the misfortune to be cursed with Hindu upper caste types like you, unable to think that anyone below you in the caste order can be anything but dirt, are doomed to be tenth-rate. A tiny elite of "twice-born" punks arrogate all social privileges to themselves, practising 100 per cent reservation against everyone else. If anyone suggests that others outside the magic circle should be given a look in, this is regarded as the sky falling down and the end of all "excellence". And India is taken for granted as a world in itself; they never think of asking how people manage things elsewhere in the world, how the bulk of the population were given a chance in life elsewhere. The arguments of people like Bundy remind me of the British in the 1920s and 1930s, when Indians were trying to become eligible to join the officer corps of the Indian Army. The British claimed that any attempt to bring in Indians would dilute fatally the "excellence" and the "very high standards" of the Army, which only Sandhurst-trained British chaps with a military tradition could uphold. Bringing Indians in in large numbers would be fatal to the Army, Indians were told. Nehru at that time pointed out that during the First World War the Bristiah, French, Germans, Russians, etc, broke all these rules about maintaining "excellence" and yet their armies were far more effective. Not to mention the Soviets who created the Red Army from scaratch in a few months. Of course, during the Second world war the British themselves vastly expanded the Indian army and recruited large numbers of Indian officers, throwing to the winds all the elitist grabage about maintaining "standards". The Indian officers, needless to say, performed brilliantly. Bundy dismisses the arnalysis that his so-called "knowledge economy" ( I would call it the "Ignorant or Denial Economy") won't help the Indian masses as "bullshit". That's a tenth-rate argument, Bundy. Can we have some facts and figures, please? Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 69	The upper castes raise a hue any cry as if a few thousand seats in IITs and IIMs going to OBCs will destroy India. Bullshit ! With thousand competing for a single seat, how can even the OBC reservation seats not demand high qualifications from those winning them? The real hue and cry is about something else, that the Brahmins and other upper castes will have reduced seats available to them, being replaced by OBCs. The upper castes don't care about "high standards" when it comes to corruption, or sanitation for the poor. When there are reports of atrocities against Dalits they do not rush to send responses, making it clear they could not care less. But "standards" in IIT colleges !! Oho oho oho !!!! THAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTT is COMMMMMMMMMMPLETELY DIFFFFFFEEERRRENT!!!! THAAAAAAAAT IS ALL ABOUT MY TWICE-BORN WHEAT-COMPLEXIONED BOYYYYYYY (I ABORTED 10 FEMALE FOETUSES ALEARDY) GOING TO AMMMMMMRRRIKKKKKAAA!!!!!!OHO OHO OHO !!!!!! Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 70	Bundy is right, of course, that there are serious differences between OBC parties and Dalit parties. That is why I have suggested the Hindu upper castes should form an alliance with them and with Muslims in a common jehadi front against the OBCs. How about that, eh, you twice-born fellows? Want to go arm in arm with Osama to protect IITs and IIMs and Sonny Boy's chances of going to Ammmmrikka. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 71	Bundy is right, of course, that there are serious differences between OBC parties and Dalit parties. That is why I have suggested the Hindu upper castes should form an alliance with them and with Muslims in a common jehadi front against the OBCs. How about that, eh, you twice-born fellows? Want to go arm in arm with Osama to protect IITs and IIMs and Sonny Boy's chances of going to Ammmmrikka. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 72	What India needs is a Hinduism ruthlessly purged of every trace of upper caste influence, and worshipping selected gods like Sri Krishna who was an OBC. If the Muslims and uppercastes had migrated to Pakistan in 1947, leaving India to the real Hindus, I think India would have been a far happier place. The upper castes are even MORE dangerous enemies of Hinduism than the Muslims. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 73	Ramdas says "What India needs is a Hinduism ruthlessly purged of every trace of upper caste influence." Replace uppercaste with jewish and hinduisim & India with Germany and the statement resembles one of the many statements made by Hitler. Now at last we know from whom our Ramdas aka Sandhu aka Pannikkaran draws his inspiration from. Navdeep Hans Delhi, India
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 74	Navdeep Hans, you of course are ignorant that Hitler and his Nazi cronies drew much of THEIR inspiration for a religiously-ordained unequal society from Brahminism. Himmler carried the Gita in his pocket everywhere. You upper castes are not real Hindus. How could you be if throughout history and today you have hated and ruthlessly oppressed the bulk of the HINDU population, made up of OBcs, Dalits and Tribals, treated us as lepers, jeer at us as "dirty", put endless blocks in the way of our every hope of advancement? India has been ruined historically thanks to upper caste and Muslim oppression. The upper castes are in truth MORE dangerous to Hinduism even than Muslims. They love upper caste oppression nad dominance, not Hinduism or India. If they leave India will heave a huge sigh of relief. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 75	I am well acquainted with many Brahmins and other upper castes, and am perpetually astonished at their COMPLETE LACK OF FELLOW-FEELING FOR THE BULK OF THE HINDU POPULATION - I.E, DALITS, TRIBALS AND OBCs. They know the majority of those suffering extreme poverty in India are from these "inferior" and "dirty" groups, SO THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT THEIR SUFFERING. LOOK HOW UPPER CASTE FELLOWS SNEER WHEN THERE IS ANY CONCERN EXPRESSED ABOUT LACK OF SANITATION FACILITIES IN INDIA - A TERRIBLE PROBLEM FOR THE INDIAN POOR. If you upper castes have no human feeling for the vast bulk of Hindus, the conclusion follows inexorably: YOUR HINDUISM IS FAKE. YOU ARE NOT REAL HINDUS. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 76	The HRD minister’s unilateral & announcement on reservations for OBCs in premier educational institutions is not only a violation to model code of conduct but also sabotage to the attempts of the National Knowledge Commission for road map for affirmative action reforms in educational sectors. Again the action of HRD minister proves lack of coordination between the functionaries of the government & individual supremacy fight between ministers. The Congress party as a national party should be very careful in its policy making & should avoid the cheap ideas for making vote bank politics. Till now it has touched almost all vital & neutral organizations of the country including army (Muslim head count), Judiciary (Himachal governments suggestion on appointment of Judges based on their caste), private sectors (though GOM washed its hands off for its sensibility) & now the premier educational institutions. These are constant attacks against prosperity of our country for only political gains & never expected from a national party. Some people including the first citizen are of opinion that increasing number of seats in those institutions will solve the issue. But what is about the future standards of those institutions? We should not forget the naked fact that our global importance is not due our wealth or any political reasons but due to our superiority in knowledge thanks to those institutions (IITs, IIMs) which cater its all effort to the really deserving & merit students. The international communities always highly respect these institutions & this quota system will definitely raise questions in their ratings resulting defamation to country’s repute. This is also unfortunate that many political leaders are of opinion that in our country caste is a class. They should know the ground realities that at this age caste can never be a class unlike the social arrangements a century back. Besides the tribal people all other can be classified on the basis of financial capabilities. Poverty is such dieses which makes backward to the higher castes even Brahmins (That’s why BSP suprimo Mayabati included Brahmins in to its party). In a democratic country definitely the economically backward classes or tribal communities should be given ample opportunities to improve their conditions. For their educational improvement extra & special care or privileges should be given at their primary & secondary education levels. If necessary they can be provided expert coaching free of cost during under graduation level to increase their ability to compete on a level playing platform to get a seat in the premier educational institution on the basis of merit & after selection they could be provided necessary stipends. In fact students from the poor class or any oppressed community can not be ruled out that they do not have merit & thus need reservation. They really lack in availing the infrastructure in primary & secondary levels & of course due to financial compulsions. All these are unfortunately state subjects & the state governments never able to put any impact on it due to may be fund problems. Forget the infra structures our state government some times not able to pay salaries to the teachers in time. This is the area the HRD minister should look in to instead of doing cheap reservation provision which will neither help to the country, nor help to the beneficiaries. Biranchi Narayan Acharya. Cuttack, India
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 77	Bhanjanbha People consider me a soft touch when I am visiting India. And that goes for all my family. However we all realise that we can not solve the problems of all th poor people in India. My attitude is to help those with whom I interact. Its not that I am not concerned about the poor elsewhere. However one has to draw a line somewhere. Unbridled emotionalism and maudlin sentiment dont help. Ultimately people have to help themselves. I agree that most are not in a position to do so. That life. Too bad. Do you feed the hippoes once in a while. Sweet creatures. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 78	Bhajanbhai Tirede of discussing the social problems of the hundreds of millions of poor people, I have sometimes thought it would be better to get involved in wild life. I am planning a trip to Sfrica. Which is the best place. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 79	Ramdas from Uganda ... reading you, I would have thought your conclusion inexorably would be "hinduism must go NOT just that upper-caste hindus' hinduism is fake". As I have understood history, the earlier reform and movements - buddhism, jainism, sikhism had limited impact. Even Islam and the mix of christanity/british didn't have much impact except even these reforms in India in practice on the ground got permeated with "caste". So my view is that if the "present" upper-caste go (as you would like to see from your postings), some others will become the upper-caste. Doesn't seem to solve antyhing. Having said that "Hinduism must go" isn't realistic either - else it should have gone by now but also replacing it with yet another 'ism, especially of the religious kind is trading one set of ills for another (and many might argue possibly worse). Looks like boss .... it's a catch-22 - we are all stuck in this maya jaal and just have to find a way to exist. Arun Maheshwari Bangalore, India
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 80	Ravikant Poor in India have been poor for a miilenium. They are not about to start a revolution as yet. Imagine a revolution New Delhi, home of a civilisation which cant get the cows of the roads. Your ideas are absurd. However just try it yourself. Send a few thousand USD to some of the needy. Thats the best way to start. Bengal, is the state which tried best to introduce the social justice you favour. Its a basket case. Anyway I am afraid you are just impossible. Incidentally what do you do for a liveing. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 81	Arun: Don't confuse Hinduism with your fatalistic upper caste rubbish, designed to keep the rest of us lower castes down. As soon as I realise that the upper castes are NOT Hindus, I develop great confidence in Hinduism. There are many INVALUABLE ideas in Hinduism, especially the idea of absolute freedom of philosophical questioning, and accepting peoples of other faiths as EQUALS if they play by the rules of equality. So, no thanks, I am sticking strongly to Hinduism. But this is an utterly different Hinduism to any you know. Not one atom of Brahminical influence will I accept. Sanskrit is all right: But ruthlessly purged of ALL Brahmincal influences. Not one single atom of the Karma theory (Dr Ambedkar rejected Karma even in the Buddhist version). NO CASTE UNDER ANY PRETEXT!!!! But I also UTTERLY reject Islam, which is no more than an ideology of Arab imperialism. Arabs are the Brahmins of Islam. I reject most of Christianity as an unnecessary, non-Indian religion. We New Hindus will take from it what we need. This New Hinduism, based on the OBCs, Dalits and Tribals, accepts certain Hindu Gods only: Those like Krishna who are identified as lower caste in their associations. Rama is firmly rejected. It is an unsentimental and tough-minded religion. No nonsense about not eating cows. No nonsense about ahimsa: if we need to act to deal with dangerous phenomena like Islam and upper casteism, this will be done ruthlessly. Arun, it is good to know who one's enemies are. You and your like worship your upper caste, not Hinduism. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 82	Lalibhai, you are certainly right that wild animals are at least ONE BILLION times more useful to have on earth than the upper castes. I have finally found out and established something about you upper castes that has puzzled me for my whole life. Whenever I speak about how anguishing it is to be of an Indian background because of the frightening misery in which most Indians live, upper caste Hindus have almost invariably looked surprised and have told me: "Oh, they're alright. It's their karma to suffer. Besides they are just animals and don't feel pain as we do." In some cases these upper caste types frankly added: "They are mostly low caste, anyway. Not our type. Forget them." You tto say: "Forget them. I am happy in Denmark, where I am making plenty of money." You are a typical upper caste false Hindu. Sorry to be so frank. At a personal level you are friendly to me and that I appreciate. Now I know that yu are not a Hindu your attitudes will not worry me. Botswana is the best country for seeing masses of African game in an unspoilt state. I would advice you to take a trip to the Okavango area of Botswana. You will see elephants, hippos, antelopes of all kinds, buffalos, in thousands. Botswana is the only well run Black african country. You will hugely enjoy going there. Much better than South Africa, which in any case you can see on the way to Botswana. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 12, 2006 12:00 AM 83	Bhajanbhai You are a crashing boor. Go play with the hippoes. Be a good Hindu yourself, give away half your kingdom to the poor and desolate. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 84	Lalit Bagai, and all our concerned Hindus. I very strongly recommend to all our concerned Hindus to read about one of our treacherous leftist historians and the lies she tells. http://www.indiastar.com/venkat1.html Raj Toronto, Canada
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 85	"IndiaStar Review of Books" is a Sanghi site. Ghulam Y Faruki New York, United States
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 86	If it is a sanghi site that means there cannot be any truth in it???. Demonisation of the opponent, very easy technique Abhishek Abhishek Drolia Raipur, India
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 87	Lalit Bagai, and all our concerned Hindus. I very strongly recommend to all our concerned Hindus to read about one of our treacherous leftist historians and the lies she tells. http://www.indiastar.com/venkat1.html Raj Toronto, Canada
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 88	""IndiaStar Review of Books" is a Sanghi site." Faruki is a closet Mullah and supporter of Al Qaida brand of terrorism and Ummah. Sweeping generalisations are easy to make. shankar Mumbai, India
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 89	Bhajanbhai Do you think the brahmins are bothered about other brahmins. How about your OBC and dalit ikons. They have been in power for decades in the eastern states. Scams and corruption at the cost of their own people. Belonging to one caste or the other that does make people better or worse. You are obviously not a brahmin, but I can say with confidence that you are a thoroughly aweful person, and one who would not help any one. Stop whineing. You are makeing a spectacle of yourself. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 90	Lalitbhai, Vishwas: Now that I have realized that upper castes are NOT Hindus, but that they belong to a very different and viciously hostile religion called Uppercasteism, I am not worried about your attitudes. We real Hindus can expect only hostility and contempt from you Uppercasteists and Muslims. So be it.For so many centuries Indai has been ruined by Uppercasteist and islamic rule and pillage. Now the Hindus are coming into their own, led by intelligent people like Ambedkar. You Uppercasteists are used to being top dog and showing off, so you will yell and scream whenever your wretched crew are deprived of prtofitable positions, like IIM and IIT seats. So be it. We Hindus will not budge. We are the huge majority in India nad all leading political parties depend on our votes. All you Uppercasteists can do is sit indoors away from the sun and the dirty Hindu crowds during elections, aborting your female foetuses. We Hindus have lots of children, and are rapidly making you extinct demographically. So Congress led by intelligent chaps like arjun singh will come back with a thumping majority the next election. Even the BJP will support the real Hindus and the reservation policy; they can't afford to do otherwise. the next step? Easy. Since real Hindus are at least 80 per cent of what are today called "Hindus" (that is, Hindus plus followers of the Uppercasteist religion) the next step is to EXTEND reservation in all pub lic and private sector jobs as well as education. From 50 per cent to about 90 per cent. Uppercasteists will become the bottom of society in a few decades, as they ruthlessly have kept US at the bottom. we are applying your beloved CASTE SYSTEM AGAINST YOU UPPERCASTES. Tough!!!! Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 91	Most of the writers of Outlook are definately the salt of the earth. Not haveing made it in any worthwhile manner, they have secured sinecures which permits them to irritate some of us readers with their naive, populist comments. However there seems also to be an endless supply of people crying about the various injustices of India,s society. To them I would say, if that is the way you feel, then leave India, and find yourself a little English village where you can consort with the old ladies for afternoon tea.India is a battle zone, and it does not require simpering moralistic pain in the butts. Your ideas are miles away from reality, and besides letting of steam of righteous indignation , I am damn sure you will achieve nothing. I am also concerned about the poor in India. But the way to help them is by doing something concrete. Help some poor but talented students to get ahead. Invest in talent. But if not , shut up. The people who have helped India are capitalists like Tata, Ambanis, Premji, Narayan Murthy etc. he bleeding hearts have not helped a bit. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 92	Bhajanbhai India as you suggest should train lots of people in various skills. The brightest for engineering etc, and the others a technicians, mason, plumbers, restaurant help, hair dressers. Your fixation on sending the Bhajanbahis of this world to the very top of IIT,s is absurd. Let them make it on merit, or choose the numerous other opportunities. Frankly I would prefer being a super chef then a nerd working for Wipro, or Infosys. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 93	Lalitbhai: May I remind you that you belong to a minority religion and community in India, the Uppercasteists. India is maninly a Hindu country, and we Hindus have the right to decide how it shall be ruled, not you, a minority religion. India has been ruled by minority religions for centuries: the Uppercasteists, the Arab Brahmins (aka Muslims), the British, then the Uppercasteists again. But now the Hindu majority is fighting to get control of India. We cannot be kept out of its important institutions on the pretext of some arbitrary standard of"excellence" set by Uppercasteists. It's like the Arab Brahmins in the past keeping other communities down in the past by saying they did not speak Persian well enough. I believe our Hindus can reach a high standard in all educational insitutions. Due to Uppercasteist privileges, they may not be able to reach quite as high an educational standard as arbirarily set by the Uppercasteists - yet. But they can make good the gap in a few years. So reservation for us Hindus is the way forward. IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN WHETHER THE UPPERCASTEISTS LIKE IT OR NOT. THEY CAN LIKE IT - OR DROP DEAD. Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 94	Bhajanbhai I gave up religion when I was eight years old, when I refused a ritual bath in Haridwar. I told my mom, that the water was filthy. And after that I became a agnostic. Religion is the opium of the masses, but I do fancy going to a Hindu temple now and then. Just for the sing song, but this happens once every two years. I like going to churches, provide its a beautiful church, and its a wedding. I believe in the basic equality of all human, men and wome, I do not respect the whites for being better then the blacks. I respect performance, but on the other hand do not look down on people who are not star performers. I have friends who are car mechanics, deckmen, doctors, finance wizards and they are all the same to me. Basically we dont live so long on this planet. I wish we could live from day to day with just sound commonsense, fairplay, and try and help people as much as we can . Daily Telegraph, Calcutta had a report where both Budha and Basu accepted that they had made a lot of mistakes. They now are open to business with any one. As Deng said. It matters little if the cat is white or black, as long as it can catch mice. Now I think Deng was a wonderful man, the maker of China. He had nothing against millionires. Mao on the other hand ensured equal misery for all. It amazeing that despite these examples there are so many on this forum who keep on with their support for policies which will stop growth, and any chance for the hundreds of millions of Indians who need jobs. For the well off Indians, I would suggest that they head for Australia, New Zealand,Europe, USA . I think India is a very dicey case. And now with Iran and Pakistan being nuclear powers, a 3 % increase increase in population of some of our minorities, we can expect lots of problems. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 95	Lalitbhai: I quite understand you and even sympathise. Nobody likes giving up dominating positions in society. Nobody likes giving people of a completely alien religion and culture and even race, like us OBCs and Dalits and Tribals, power to run the country. The Muslims hated giving up power to the Mahrathas; the British hated giving it up to the follwers of your religion, Uppercasteism. Naturally you don't like us Hindus now increasingly taking over. So you will cry about "standards" declining just as the British did and indeed the Mughals did (I refer to the still quite common complaint of Ashraf Muslims in North India that standards of deportment, speech and conduct have declined since the crude Hindi-wallahs took over in Dilli). Ramdas Bajjanbhai Jinja, Uganda
Apr 13, 2006 12:00 AM 96	The royal queens proclaiming, "Let 'em eat cake" may be good for some laughs. On the other hand, some sensible points are made by the secretary of the Mandal Commission : http://tinyurl.com/z99f9 Ghulam Y Faruki New York, United States
Apr 14, 2006 12:00 AM 97	I might be pertinent to point out that the great seeker of knowledge BR Ambedkar (who's birth anniversary falls on Apr 14th) did not need Mandal Style laws in order to get into Columbia or the LSE. All he required was his own brilliant mind. As usual the Congress party for its own shameful vote-bank style reasons is making a pretence of providing justice. The right thing to do is to have one syllabus (for Maths, Science, English) all over India and the govt must see to it that each and every student has access to adequate resources. If the ramifications of Manu's laws are felt 2500 years down the line and ended up dividing society wont these laws also end up dividing society. And what happens to the child of a "Brahmin" father & an "OBC" mother or that of an "OBC" father & "Brahmin" mother ? Do these form another "caste" ? And Ramdasbhai, FYI I am an "OBC". Pi New Jersey, United States
Apr 14, 2006 12:00 AM 98	Ravikant Reading posting of a few days ago I read your view that society must provide equality otherwise one can expect trouble. Now tell me what have the policies of your blood brothers achieved in Bengal, Bihar annd UP. Next look up to Gujerat, Himachal Pradesh and Uttaranchal , Punjab and Haryana. All doing much better. All these states are provideing jobs for the Biharis , Bangladeshis. I think you owe it us debaters on this forum to come up with an answer. That goes for Bhajanbhai and all people who support your views. lalit bagai kalundborg, Brazil
May 17, 2006 12:00 AM 99	i know that reservation hurts. It hurts bad when you are in the receiving end. The upper caste people have dominated the society for over 3000 years and hurt the lower caste. They had no one to go to, not even their own brother would support him for fear of oppression. Dear uppercaste friends plz check the Indian history and let me know what happened to the lower caste people for over 3000 years. You hurt them in every walks of life. And when you are paid back in the same coin why the hue and cry. You say the quality of education will come down if students are selected with low grades. Whats going to happen. You say quality of doctors is going to go down. It cannot go worse than what it is today. You are sworn to take care of the sick and the needy and you are out there protesting against the reservation forcing many a poor people to hardships. Now this is what is called bad doctors. I would like to go on but I have patients to take care right away so will continue in my next comment. Selvakumar Coimbatore, Iraq
May 24, 2006 12:00 AM 100	I have seen a movie where the villain keeps talking about establishing equality. Since the poor cannot be made rich, rob the rich and make every one poor and equal. That was satire. But that applies very aptly to the ongoing frenzy shown by politicians to indulge in cheap politics and brand them as affirmative action. For whatever my intelligence is worth, I am not able to make out how a few thousand stundents belonging to the so called OBCs will change the life of their lot. What is the affirmative action for people proposed by the govt. for the so called forward castes when they are unable to meet the cost of one good meals per day? Forward in terms of caste means they can sustain and endure hunger? The solution to teach the politician sqoundrels is a) Reservation in the Central and State Ministries and legislatures. b) A couple of big industrial houses relocating themselves in some other country along with their staff and capital. I don't blame the Backward classes in the matter as the truly backwards cannot comprehend the issue and those who are supporting neither need reservation nor are they truly backward. Infact, too many of us are backward since we believe that Sony has "SACRIFICED". Hope to see someone like Bajaj or Narayanamurthy announcing the winding up of their efforts here. ramesh hyderabad, India
May 26, 2006 12:00 AM 101	Sub: Quota in educational Institutions in India. Government of the people, for the people and by the people is called Democracy, which needs mandate from the people and to garner votes, concessions are offered in several forms as frequently as possible, depending upon the situation. Presently, quota in educational institutions for people born in certain caste categories is the concession offered. It started with the jobs in employment in central and state government setups. Now, in the educational institutions to be followed with jobs in private companies. The government is spending billions of rupees from the taxes collected in subsidies like power, public distribution system, cooking gas and what more. Why the ruling authorities never thought of bringing these designated categories by offering free education/ tuition/ books etc as long as they want, and make them on par with others by proper motivation and all round assistance instead of suppressing the other category called forward. In one of the states, one fine morning, land reforms act came in force, throwing out thousand of middle class people on the road. They had to run away from the state for their lively hood. Overnight, the tenants became affluent. Does such affluent categories need reservation because they are born in a particular caste? There are millions of people in the so called forward community in total poverty and what sin have they done to be deprived of their education, resulting in the denial of their progress in life? Ironically, most of the political parties are in agreement for this quota scheme, lest it will affect their votes now or later. Pity the only affected persons are agitating. Fasting, Dharna, Bandhs, suicides and patients dying etc will not soften the attitude of the government by the people now. Unfortunately, the persons who are agitating are not in numbers like nationalized banks. It is heard that the seats in General category will be increased and it is an ambiguous statement. The agitators can now make a pleading to the authorities to effect the quota system in stages in relation to the viability of the increase in seats in educational institutions. Splitting people on caste/creed/religion is not to be called secularism. I might have been the victim of land reforms act and similarly, my children could not have got admission for want of that extra mark and also had to reconcile the junior person becoming senior in profession, but at this stage and age it is a futile exercise to remember the moments of truth when you don't have the strength and means to fight. sundar chennai, india
Feb 02, 2007 12:00 AM 102	suddenly the politicians are too keen to put reservation in pvt organisation .their honesty can be observed simply by the women reservation bill not finding any takers at the parliament. Mr Singh should first put an effort in passing the women reservation bill. neeti chaturvedi indore, India

COLLAPSE COMMENTS


Post a Comment
You are not logged in, please log in or register

Comments Policy

We at outlookindia.com welcome your feedback to the articles, stories and blogs featured by us.

But please note the following:

1. Please keep your comments/feedback limited to the subject matter of the article you are responding to. Please note that our comments section is not a general free-for-all. It is for feedback to articles/blogs posted on the site. Please try and keep your comments concise and clear. Short messages tend to get noticed and also have a high probability of getting published in our respective print magazines.

2. Please do not spam us. Please do not post the same message again and again. Even in different threads.

3. Scathing, passionate, even angry, critique is welcome; abuse and invective is not. We request civility and urge our readers to try and express their disagreements, if any, without being disagreeable. There is just no space for personal attacks. No ad hominem please.

4. If any of the above three conditions are violated, we reserve the right to delete any comment that we deem objectionable and/or also to withdraw posting privileges from the abuser(s).

Please note that it may not be possible for our moderators to sift through your messages and if they find more than one instance of abuse, they may decide to delete all your messages ever posted by you rather than spend time trying to locate all the abusive ones. Therefore, if you want us to take you seriously and for your messages to be retained on the site, please ensure that you do not cross the civil lines of propriety.

Please note that hate-speech is punishable by law and in extreme circumstances, we may be forced to take legal action by tracing the IP addresses of the poster.

Our endeavour is to keep these forums un-moderated and unexpurgated. Please help us help you.

5. If someone is being abusive or personal, or generally being a troll or a flame-baiter, please do not stoop to their level. The best response to such posters is to ignore them and send us a message with links to the offending mails at the following email address: Mail AT outlookindia DOT com. Please put "COMPLAINT" in the subject-header of your mail.

6. Please do not copy and paste copyrighted material. If you think that an article on another site has relevance to the point you wish to make, please only quote what is considered "fair-use" and provide a link to the article under question.

7. There is no particular Outlookindia.com line on any subject. The views expressed in our opinion section are those of the author concerned and do not necessarily reflect the views of Outlookindia.com

8. Please also note that the sole responsibility for the comments posted on the site is that of the relevant registered user posting the comment. The comments could be deleted or edited entirely at our discretion if we find them objectionable. However, the mere fact of a comment's existence on our site does not mean that we necessarily approve of its contents. Outlookindia.com however, retains the right to publish any of these comments, with or without editing, in any medium whatsoever.

9.Outlookindia.com is not responsible in any manner whatsoever for how any search engine -- such as Google, Bing etc -- caches or displays the comments posted by you. Please note that you are solely responsible for posting these comments and it is a privilege being granted to our registered users which can be withdrawn in case of abuse. To reiterate:

a. Comments once posted can only be deleted at the discretion of outlookindia.com
b. The comments reflect the views of the authors and not of outlookindia.com
c. Outlookindia.com is not responsible in any manner whatsoever for the way search engines cache or display these comments
d. Please therefore take due caution before you post any comments as your words could potentially show up on search engines such as Google, Bing etc.

10. There is an online thread for our comments policy. You are welcome to post your suggestions here or in case you have a specific issue, to directly email us at Mail AT outlookindia DOT com with the subject header COMPLAINT.

We look forward to your feedback.