Opinion
Creationism By Any Other Name…
Hindu Americans have a legitimate right to a fair and culturally sensitive representation in public school curricula. However, no one has a right to distort the truth and push their own political agendas at the expense of American school children.
TEXT BOOK CONTROVERSY
'The intense struggle over the content of Indian history in California textbooks ended yesterday afternoon at 2 p.m. with the special committee of the California SBE voting unanimously to overturn a majority of contentious changes proposed by Hindu right-wing groups.'
Friends of South Asia

The California State Board of Education (CSBE) is currently discussing a very controversial issue. In keeping with precedent, the CSBE has asked the community for suggestions in regard to the updating of school textbooks. As a result of the suggestions it received, unscientific, religious-based materials may be presented to public school children as historical facts. Unlike the recent controversies in Kansas, Pennsylvania and Ohio, what the CSBE finds itself involved in does not concern the Christian fundamentalists and intelligent design proponents one might expect. The religious fundamentalists in this case are Hindu.

Initially, the goals of these pressure groups, known as Hindutva, seem benign and even righteous. They aim to rectify culturally biased and insensitive depictions of India and Hinduism in public school textbooks. Hindutva groups would like Hinduism - one of the world's oldest major religions, with approximately 800 million adherents worldwide, to be treated with the same consideration and respect as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism. Their organizers have managed to obtain a few thousand signatures from the 1.6 million South Asians in the US for support of petitions circulated through Hindu temples across the United States.

If these reasonable changes comprised the full extent of the amendments being proposed by the Hindutva groups, there would be no controversy at all. However, many of the Hindu Americans that signed these petitions would be shocked to learn about other agendas being pushed - and the manner in which they are being pushed - by the Hindutva lobby, in their name. Some examples of outlandish published beliefs of these Hindutva groups include putting the age of the universe 155 trillion years ago, dating the first Indian civilizations to 1900 million years ago, the claim that all of modern human civilization began in India around 8000 BC, and that important cultural texts such as the Ramayana and Mahabharata -- which depict wars between humans and the incarnations of deities -- are historical texts to be understood literally rather than as stories with moral and religious truths to impart. Other claims pretend to be science such as the citation of satellite imagery of ancient riverbeds as proof of the existence of a mighty Sarasvati river in Vedic times, and that ancient Hindu scriptures contain precise calculations of the speed of light and exact distances between planets in the solar system. The figures used in these equations were derived from totaling the number of poetic verses in scriptural texts.

This brings to mind the equally improbable claims of several Christian fundamentalist groups who believe NASA has evidence of the Earth completely stopping its rotation, corroborating the "Missing Day of Joshua" story in the Bible. Interestingly, the Hindutva lobby agenda being put forward contradicts "young earth creationism", in which Christian fundamentalists believe the origins of life on earth to be as described in the Bible and earth to be 6,000 years old. Coincidently, intelligent design and "young earth creationism" were being taught at a high school in Lebec, California, just north of Los Angeles, until public scrutiny of this effort was brought to bear last month and the school board of Lebec reversed this initiative.

The American Hindutva lobby disguises its divisive political agenda in the language of inclusion, seeming to intend only to redress historical inequities by demanding the accurate representation of Hinduism in the American classroom. This is quite ironic in that the Hindutva movement in India is predicated on the subjugation of minorities and pluralism in society. In fact, the Hindutva lobby pressuring the CSBE is very closely allied to Hindu fundamentalists in both the US and India who are trying to propagate a revisionist history in Indian classrooms and political discourse. Their parent organization in India, a group known as the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) has a distinctly fundamentalist political agenda. The RSS and its political arm, the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), gained power from moderate secular Indians by exploiting Hindu nationalist sentiments. The RSS in particular has been involved in several high-profile incidents of religiously motivated violence over the last twenty years, as reported by the New York Times. The BJP recently lost power in national elections in 2004 after ruling for six years. The former opposition Congress party is now going to great lengths to remove the Hindutva material inserted into school textbooks while the BJP was in power. These events relate directly to the current battle in the California Board of Education. As has been demonstrated by many political organizations working to gain power in their own countries, modest political victories achieved by like-minded people in the United States translate into donations from abroad and huge political capital at home.

In 2004, many textbook changes proposed by Hindutva groups in Fairfax County, Virginia, were implemented without much outside scrutiny. Thus emboldened, these groups prepared to reapply their winning strategy in California. Tactically this made a lot of sense: it is one of the largest school systems in the country, with a large Indian (South Asian) American population, and its textbooks were up for review. The changes made in California, similar to the ones made in Texas and New York, have repercussions for school systems across the country. The publishers of school textbooks make changes based on the needs of their largest volume customers. Changes made to textbooks in the larger states filter down to those in smaller states.

When the California textbooks came up for review last summer, a former professor of history, and Hindutva lobby sympathizer, was approached by one of the Hindutva foundations and later was appointed to an expert advisory board serving the CSBE. Interestingly, he did not disclose his previous relationships to the Hindutva groups to the CSBE at the time. In a recent front-page article, it was also disclosed that one of the Hindutva lobby groups was founded by the American branch of the RSS and the other was completely owned by a sub-sectarian Hindu temple group out of Austin, Texas also tied to the American RSS group. Neither of these facts was disclosed to the CSBE either. The Hindutva agenda, full of historically inaccurate, Hindutva-centric changes -- was forwarded along quietly, again with no outside scrutiny, as successfully as the agenda had been in Virginia.

On November 5, 2005 word leaked out to the wider academic community. Our academic colleagues in this country, many of whom are Indian American, and those in India itself, strongly objected to the historical inaccuracies championed by the Hindutva lobby. Not only were the suggested revisions of the textbooks factually incorrect in many instances but there was also an attempt to explain away those aspects of traditional Indian society that are now a matter of critical concern to Indians in India. The textbook revisions whitewash the plight of women and the so called lower castes. Their history was reduced to "different" rights and education for women while the caste system was simply a division of labor. Approximately 150 scholars, specialists on South Asia from UCLA, Stanford, UC Berkeley, Columbia, Princeton, Yale, Harvard, The University of Florida, Cornell, Smith College, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and dozens of other well-respected schools, sent a letter to Dr. Ruth Green, the president of the California State Board of Education. As the full political ramifications of the fight they found themselves involved in became clearer, the CSBE paused to reconsider their course of action. Last month, in an attempt to further understand this complex issue, the CSBE asked one of us [Michael Witzel] to debate the issue in front of a few members of the board with their in house, Hindutva leaning Curriculum Committee expert, S. Bajpai. Many of the historical inaccuracies were debunked in face-to-face debate but the CSBE put off a final decision at this time.

Our letter and actions have provoked a furious if not predictable response from the Hindutva lobby. Slurs such as "Nazi", "Hitler", "Racist", "Marxist", "Communist", "Hindu hater", "Race Traitor", "Christian missionary" and "Creationist" have been directed toward us. In light of the December 6 physical assault and beating up of University of Kansas religious studies professor, Dr. Paul Merecki, by religious fundamentalists, we have been forced to ask law enforcement to investigate death threats levied against some of us over this issue. When the political nature of their campaign was revealed, the Hindutva lobbyists based here in the United States hurriedly removed information from their websites and tried to cover up any evidence of their links to the RSS. Surely such desperate measures make their true intentions plain. We do not believe that the many Americans who signed petitions in support of these groups and causes condone them.

The Hindutva lobby will undoubtedly persist in their efforts even if they are stopped in California. The fact that there are very culturally biased and insensitive passages regarding Hinduism in many textbooks provides their alibi. The authors of these chapters are often Bachelors or Masters level scholars, with no specialized training on India, whatsoever. In order to counteract this threat to the integrity of the material taught to our children, an international council of scholars, called The Academic Indology Advisory Council, (cf. http://www.indiantruth.org/ ) has been formed; it will offer its expertise to any school boards and publishers who may call on it, as a service to the field of Indian Studies.

If, as the old saying goes, decisions are made by those who show up, we and like-minded Indian Americans are going to show up at every meeting. Hindu nationalists have a legitimate right to pursue their political agenda in India. Hindu Americans have a legitimate right to a fair and culturally sensitive representation in public school curricula. However, no one has a right to distort the truth and push their own political agendas at the expense of American school children. Why would we in the United States, implement textbook changes about India that India itself has rejected and is actively replacing?

For the Hindutva lobby to successfully implement academically irresponsible, outright false material into textbooks would be to realize "victory without honor". It would be, in fact, a dishonor to the cultural and religious heritage it claims to cherish. Based on their lack of academic integrity, scholarship, and undisclosed links to Hindu fundamentalist groups based in India, no one can trust any of the Hindutva lobby's claims anymore. The overarching issue here is once we accept one religious group's agenda and beliefs to be taught in the public schools, it opens the door for every other group to do the same thing. Perhaps as educators, we should stick to teaching the facts, and allow the teaching of religion to be handled by the real experts: the parents, pastors and priests.

Update: Yesterday, on Februrary 27, the Subcommittee of the California Board of Education has voted five to zero to throw out the Hindutva edits -- a final decision by the Board is expected during its meeting on March 8-10.


Romila Thapar is India's best known historian, Prof. emeritus of Jawaharlal Nehru University (New Delhi), and the first Kluge Chair (Library of Congress). Michael Witzel is Wales Prof. of Sanskrit, Harvard University

TEXT BOOK CONTROVERSY
'The intense struggle over the content of Indian history in California textbooks ended yesterday afternoon at 2 p.m. with the special committee of the California SBE voting unanimously to overturn a majority of contentious changes proposed by Hindu right-wing groups.'
Friends of South Asia
Translate into:
 
Daily Mail
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
1
Romila Thapar and Michael Witzel have written a very balanced, sober and eye-opening article. Removal of all anti-Hindu prejudicial material should of course be done, but this should not be an excuse to ram through an extremist Hindutva agenda.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
2
" Slurs such as "Nazi", "Hitler", "Racist", "Marxist", "Communist", "Hindu hater", "Race Traitor", "Christian missionary" and "Creationist" have been directed toward us"

OOPS!! We feel sooooooooo sorry that Madam's feelings are hurt! But this is nothing compared to what Madam and her cohorts in the JNU have hurled against all those who disagreed with them. The greatest historian in India, RC Majumdar was traduced because he refused to toe the party line.None of his books got published by the IHRC controlled by Thapar and co. They have used the choicest of abuses against those who questioned them. One example is how they treated BB Lal. They quoted him in their works and then when he refused to toe their line on the Ayodhya issue, he became a "communalist". And he was abused all day long.

And now Madam wants to feel sorry for her. And we do. Name calling in any field is wrong. But Madam must also realize what she had been doing all these years. She and her cohorts are experts in name calling. Time they stopped it.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
3
Harvard faculty like Witzel who are so sanctimonious about "political incorrectness", do not apply any such ethics to themselves when there is money or political capital to be made, at any cost to children or the community. They run internet hate groups, consort with ugly groups such as Communists and far-right Conversionists (see Ref. 1, from a Harvard acaddemic discussion list), bully students to inflate their own Teaching Evaluations, and just plain tell lies under the Harvard letterhead.

Harvard's own magazine 'The Crimson' [Ref2] has listed of Professor Witzel's articles terrible treatment of internal dissent and student freedom of speech going back about a decade.

An online petiton [Ref3] signed by over 2700+ Hindus world wide (including over 100 academics with impeccable credentials) have expressed their disgust and outrage against racists comments by Prof Witzel who's lately leading an anti-Hindu crusade using his chair at Harvard. [Ref5].

Unlike you or I, Witzel claims the blessings of the Harvard Provost [Ref6] to write such racial slurs under the Harvard letter head!

A summary of the gross political patronage and money-grabbing in the textbook market using blatant bullying tactics by Prof Wiztel [Ref8].

More recently Prof Witzel bullied his way at the ratemyprofessor.com website to remove the adverse comments by his students (see the Harvard CRIMSON article for a realistic assessment of Witzel's notoriously poor teaching) and successfully replaced them with glowing comments about his accomplishments. Though these are transparently bogus, as any teacher can see, Witzel, though claiming to be a world-class linguist, bragged about these as if they were genuine, a day after 10 such comments mysteriously appeared. [Ref7] In most universities, this would be grounds for tenure revocation (moral turpitude). At Harvard it is probably standard behavior!

Recently, he has been campaigning (and has succeeded on his IER) to get abusive and demeaning pictures included in textbooks for 6th-grade kids, in order to humiliate and degrade Hindu children. For example, he has got his sidekick on the IER to post and propagate videos of people cleaning latrines in India, as graphics to be included under the "Hinduism" section!

[Ref1]
http://lists.hcs.harvar...06-February/000269.html

[Ref2]
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=500579

[Ref3]
http://www.petitiononli...m/stopIER/petition.html

[Ref4]
http://groups.yahoo.com...n_research/message/2300

[Ref5]
http://www.india-forum....ches-anti-Hindu-Crusade

[Ref6]
http://groups.yahoo.com...n_research/message/2973

[Ref7]
http://groups.yahoo.com...n_research/message/3037

[Ref8]
http://www.india-forum....-Ivy-League-Hate-groups

Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
4
What a crap article. Romali thaperis person who spends most of time with imam bukari of juma masjid delhi & some leberal pseudo hindu haters joined hands to glorifly the muslim rule as per UPA govt Secularism agenda to please muslim vote bank and anything related to hindu is present negatively and all good thing of vedic & hindu ancient india is deleted.and these ppl called it desaffriosation of text books. now she played a big role in so called revision of hindu history books. This articel is she blamed RSS as Hindutva agenda. forgetting that 75% hindu are peacful b'cuz they follow sanatan dharma. RSS is only org which work for hindus & and stop the hindu conversion & try to unite hindus under one umbrella. Mullas, massionaries & marikists always hated RSS b'cuz rss is doing reconversion of many dalit muslims & dalit xians.
If muslims , Xians and jews can bring the changes deleting the negative side of their religion and their recommendation are accepted by board then why these people are meddling with when it comes to hinduism. Even some pakis ( who worked against modi's visa) friends of this romali & Pof Witzel have joined this group.
What a shameless character romal thapar clalling her self as educated historian
Suman Bhat
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
5
Vishal Agarwal had handed out some nice thappads to this Thappar:


http://tinyurl.com/d32gr


Obiviously the old bat peddling her 50 years of lies thinks that she has monopoly on deciding what's write or wrong.

Give it up you old hag, genetics, archealogy, metallurgy etc have proved you to be a plain co-coo.. Witzel's holding your breifs, not for long.
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
6
Witzel's cohorts in battling the Hindutava windmills are hardly experts at all.
A detailed write up on each of those akka-dummy who lent their names to Witzel without even reading the edits are listed here:


http://www.india-forum....Michael-Witzel-Petition
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
7
its the missionery conspiracy to use some fake hindu seculars to defame Hinduism It is the fundamental right of Hindus to defend their religion just like any one else. How UPA traitors are making India islambad to get the muslim vote, Romali thaper Tessta, javed akther, MJ akber, Vinod mehta, kuldip nayar are some of the chamahca who sold their self respect to earn some extra dollars.
By the way I ask the writer what u have achieved by joining the hands with hindu haters.
The same kind of mulla+ missionary + markist group tried their best to stop the celebration of Kumbhmela in Guj recently. But it was a huge success and many dalit muslim +xians returned to Hinduism. Thanks to pseudo secular hero keep hindu bashing. More polarising hindu mind. Keep up the good work
Suman Bhat
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
8
Romila Thappar merely gives an account of who proposed the changes and concludes its illegitimacy without actually debunking or even debating the actual issue at hand.

I used to have faith in the what she wrote until this article which is a complete sham. An argument is based on a change that was not even proposed (age of earth etc). It was merely on Hindu website s - as any Hindu website would detail what their religion says.

Thappar should not poke into matters irrelevant to her country and her aethiest believes. Let alone californians, but only practicing Hindus should be alowed to say what Hinduism is.

Harry Damon
Chicago, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
9
Thapar and Witzel say:

"Hindutva groups would like Hinduism - one of the world’s oldest major religions, with approximately 800 million adherents worldwide, to be treated with the same consideration and respect as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism."

Wow!!! and this is bad?
Nikhil Malhotra
Nashville, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
10
Can Witzel or Thapar point me to the edit # where any organization has claimed that the age of the universe 155 trillion years ago?
Nikhil Malhotra
Nashville, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
11
Yesterday was the Vijaydivas for Hindus!
Common Hindus were able to defeat Indian communist and German Fascist forces.
Witzel and Romila are not only lying but they are biggest fraud. I was present in every hearing. CDE have already accepted 85% of changes.

Indiatruth.org is organization started by people (FOSA + CAC) (communist group of India and Pakistan) who carried placard showing "Allah will destroy the terrorist State of India" during Kargil war.
Yesterday’s meeting Witzel's assistance Steve Farmer quoted “he is Atheist”. But his thesis is full of reference to Bible. Steve Farmer said that he does not believe in Aryan Invasion or Aryan Migration theory. All who says have no knowledge what so ever which includes Witzel and Romilla Thappar both of them are promoting her and his nonsense theory.
Yesterday’s meeting Witzel paraded Sikh Dalit (Khalistani). On one side they say Dalit is Hinduism problem and now Witzel is parading Dalit. And these Sikh Dalit claims that they are eating "Dead Animals" for last thousand years. They are cleaning toilets in India and also in USA. If its Sikhism problem they should add in Sikhism lesson in text book.,
They even parade Muslims and Christians against Hindus.

One of the FOSA member started abusing common Hindus and he was forced to remove from room by security people.

Why German Fundamentalist Christian Witzel and communist Romilla Thappar celebrating? They should check changes. Its shame they are lying. Common Hindus were able to defeat communist and Fascist forces.

COngrats every single Hindu parents and Hindus. United we can defeat these Christian Fascist and Communist forces.
Maharishi
San Francisco, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
12
Check the bizzare statements about universe being gazillion years old.

Not ONE freaking edit requested by VF or HEF deals with this.

Proves that both Witzel and Thappar have NOT read the entire list of edits. Witzel was cornered on this Harvard Dharma meet and the sleaze wriggled off answering it saying the matter is in court and he can't respond.

FACT ONE: Nothing in edits relate to the trillion years often brayed by Farmer, Witzel and his cabal.
FACT TWO: There is NO known lawsuit in US pertaining to Witzel having read the edits or not.
FACT THREE: Either Witzel is an idiot to harp of a point which he can't substantiate or he's dumb and is taking us for suckers.

Sorry Witzel and Thappar. Please read the edits and then speak.

Detailed List of California Text book Edits is here:
http://tinyurl.com/c4nb9
or
http://www.india-forum....ifornia-Text-book-Edits


Where's the edit Witzel? Thappar? Please point it out.
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
13
Witzel, Thappar, Farmer all are worst liar one can find. This is direct outcome of Fascist and communist ideology. Marx and his lies are dead inside these Fascist people.
Witzel himself claims that he had never seen edit by Hindu parents but he and rest of other fascist communist jokers came and signed letter produced by Christian fundamentalist Bible thumper Witzel, including communist Romilla Thappar. These peoples brain should be checked for mental defects and should be sent for psychiatric ward for rest of their lives. These people are danger to society and humanity.
Maharishi
San Francisco, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
14
You know, someone asked Indira Gandhi in the 70's (the "foreign hand" lady) how come Indians do so much better in the west than they do in India?

Well, there are the usual economic freedom reasons.

But, not there is a better one! They can practice their religion on an equal footing with others -- without the state's curriculum hijacked by a few self-serving historians -- and have the right to public hearings to remove their bias in a wonderful place like California!!

Too bad Indian children are fed textbooks with unending glorification of "minority" religions and complete putdown of Hinduism.

Just as Pakistani educated people realize how slanted their history of Pakistan was -- it has no link with their own geography and people inhabiting it before the 7th century -- I as India educated have realized we were fed so much rote crap like the aryan theory without any supporting rhime or reason.

Romila Thapar has everything to lose as more light shines on her ludicrous historic theories that were only supported by spineless govts thriving on minority votebanks!

Oh, Ghulam, stop towing your automatic ghulami lines once in a while and read the proposed changes and find for yourself the lies in Romila's article.
Viveka P
San Francisco, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
15
Hindutva groups would like Hinduism - one of the world’s oldest major religions, with approximately 800 million adherents worldwide, to be treated with the same consideration and respect as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and
Buddhism.

************************

h
ow dare they
Rahul
Delhi, India
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
16
GHULAM Y FARUKI

How do you know this is a balanced article when you don’t have anything to compare this nonsense against. Even without that you are the first to jump to a conclusion that this is "balanced". I wonder how?
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
17
RSK and Viveka,

I called it balanced because the authors said, "Hindutva groups would like Hinduism - one of the world’s oldest major religions, with approximately 800 million adherents worldwide, to be treated with the same consideration and respect as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism", and added, "If these reasonable changes comprised the full extent of the amendments being proposed by the Hindutva groups, there would be no controversy at all"

My take was, " Removal of all anti-Hindu prejudicial material should of course be done, but this should not be an excuse to ram through an extremist Hindutva agenda"

I think their statement as well as my statement is fair. If different people are talking about different lists of edits, that should be cleared up. But my comment would still hold.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
18
To Fascist Witzel and Communist Romilla,
Do you know Sanskrit? Can you speak? If you can't speak or read how you can read Hindu Scriptures?
How you can utter a single fact about Hindu or India?
Don't you think its time for both of you either get married and settle down in Hitler old Villa and write Jews History or Join Hindutava force and do well for humanity?
Fascism and Communism are dead and you are in 21th Century. Don't make your parents ashamed of you.
Maharishi
San Francisco, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
19
To Fascist Witzel and Communist Romilla,
Do you know Sanskrit? Can you speak? If you can't speak or read how you can read Hindu Scriptures?
How you can utter a single fact about Hindu or India?
Don't you think its time for both of you either get married and settle down in Hitler old Villa and write Jews History or Join Hindutava force and do well for humanity?
Fascism and Communism are dead and you are in 21th Century. Don't make your parents ashamed of you.
Maharishi
San Francisco, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
20
I'm going to regret the rest of my life that I grew up reading history books by Romila thapur.
kk lol
cal, India
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
21
KK Lol writes:

>>I'm going to regret the rest of my life that I grew up reading history books by Romila thapur.

Could you regret it on someone else's time?
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
22
Ghulam:

You have participated on this forum in discussing the articles by the idiot Vinay Lal (Associate Professor at UCLA), the communist liar Raju Rajagopal, and the decent authors Rajiv Malhotra and Miss Vidhi Jhunjhunwala.

So, you know that I know that you have read the issues, and understand QUITE well, that the edits proposed by Hindu groups, and accepted as of Nov. 5 by the California Content Review Panel, were NOTHING like what these liars Witzel and Thapar make them out to be.

So please decide. Are you going to pretend to not know, and hence force me to expose you as a liar, or are you going to put fairness and honesty above your religious agenda, and come clean?

It is up to you.

Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
23
Romila Thapar is not "India's most famous historian" as Witzel declares her to be (for the second time, incidentally - those were his exact words in that idiotic letter).

Romila Thapar is simply India's most fraudulent academic.

As for Witzel's racist nature, intelligent readers can judge for themselves. The quotes here understate Witzel's own comments, to try not to incite readers needlessly.

Enjoy:
"
• Witzel writes that 'Indian Civilization would be a good idea'
• Witzel writes that NRI (non-resident Indian) stands for Non-Returning Indians! A schoolyard bully’s taunt against immigrant children, but coming from a tenured Harvard Professor?
• Witzel claims that Indians in the USA do not invest in the higher education of their children (since they avoid the zoo that Witzel has made of his own department?)
• Witzel used the slur "HiNA" meaning in Sanskrit, inferior, lowly and defective, as an acronym for Hindus in North America. Does this juvenile propensity to invent racial slurs, much as it may impress his Prominent Academic IER cronies, define Harvard's intellectual class in 2005?
• Witzel declared Hindu-Americans to be "lost" or "abandoned", parroting anti-Semite slurs against Jewish people. Coincidence or symptom?
• Witzel’s fantasies are ominously reminiscent of WW2 German genocide. He says that 'Since they won't be returning to India, [Hindus immigrants to the USA] have begun building crematoria as well.'
• Witzel sneers at the Hindu belief in evolution, enshrined in the Ten Incarnations, which include the Varaha, the wild boar. He writes that second generation [Hindu] people just understand [Hinduism] as 'boaring rituals' (puja, etc.), temple visits and Indian (mythological) comic books ... "

We note that Indian-American parents must resort to comic books to teach their heritage to their children, precisely because of the sorry state of textbooks and academic curricula [3] Witzel as self-proclaimed “world expert” has failed to exert positive leadership in the field of his presumed scholarship.
• Witzel ridicules the most sacred of Hindu mantras: inexcusable for a schoolyard bully, not to mention a historian and professor. He writes:
”Many short mantras (the later biija mantras) like oM have humble origins the Veda.... used in the Veda to call your goat .. and your wife.” This was carried on for several posts of racist ‘banter’ on the IER forum with S. Farmer.
• Witzel demeans the daughters of Indian-American parents, who take the trouble to learn their heritage through traditional art forms. In the worst of racist slander, Witzel claims that Indian classical music and dance reflect low moral standards.

The above reflect the attitudes associated with the Nazi genocide planners of 1930s Europe. The Nazis systematically whipped up hatred through distortion, defamation, vilification and demonization. Isn't it more than alarming that Harvard nurtures such attitudes in 2005?

Such racist bigotry is standard fare on the IER forum, where all posts require editing and approval by Witzel or his assistant S. Farmer. Witzel presents this behavior as being approved by Harvard university, using his Harvard Wales Professor designation."

That's from

http://www.petitiononli...m/stopIER/petition.html


Over TWO THOUSAND SEVEN HUNDRED people have read and signed that.

So dear reader, please consider: Romila Thapar and Michael Witzel prove again here that they are vicious liars.

So how can you believe the "history" that they write?
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
24
what else can be expected from a committed and left oriented historian cum elite politician cum elite secular etc.this product of indias infamous jawahar lal nehru university known as communist hostel,Romila thapar will naturally have a backing not only from anti india work groups but also from anti hindu covert groups.When RSS was accused of saffronising education the communists are shutting thier mouth agaisnt the history of the communist ideology itself being dumped across the planet.They have twisted the facts in thier history writting like want to give a face lift and a bew meaning to otherwise invading muslims.istory tells us that muslims came to india as invaders and destroyed the temples of the hindus and this can be found alive throught the world.Till few years back the text books were giving this facts and with the advent of communists in the indian political scene they want to project muslims in a diffrent colour.By changing the history on books you cant change the nature of the people and thats what we are seeing in the wirld- the islamic terrorism.So necessity to rewrite history.Let the romila thapars remembee that thier days are numbered in the world as even the last emperor CHINA is also crumbling.
rajdeep
Bangalore, India
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
25
what else can be expected from a committed and left oriented historian cum elite politician cum elite secular etc.this product of indias infamous jawahar lal nehru university known as communist hostel,Romila thapar will naturally have a backing not only from anti india work groups but also from anti hindu covert groups.When RSS was accused of saffronising education the communists are shutting thier mouth agaisnt the history of the communist ideology itself being dumped across the planet.They have twisted the facts in thier history writting like want to give a face lift and a bew meaning to otherwise invading muslims.istory tells us that muslims came to india as invaders and destroyed the temples of the hindus and this can be found alive throught the world.Till few years back the text books were giving this facts and with the advent of communists in the indian political scene they want to project muslims in a diffrent colour.By changing the history on books you cant change the nature of the people and thats what we are seeing in the wirld- the islamic terrorism.So necessity to rewrite history.Let the romila thapars remembee that thier days are numbered in the world as even the last emperor CHINA is also crumbling.
rajdeep
Bangalore, India
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
26
Ari Saja,

Do the edits that you refer to include what the authors mention, namely, "The textbook revisions whitewash the plight of women and the so called lower castes. Their history was reduced to "different" rights and education for women while the caste system was simply a division of labor"

Are different people talking of different lists of edits?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
27
MY RESPONSE, PART 1

As I reached the end of this article, I felt myself thinking: This is just the beginning. That's not meant to sound sinister, I hasten to add, for the benefit of the authors. The only thing grim about me is my determination!

Parents tend to be a determined bunch, and thanks to all the red-blooded notoriety this issue has assumed, more parents have become aware that they need to remain aware.

Whatever the sages perched on the lofty spires of Harvard may say, we parents are the ones who deal with the steady deterioration in the quality of education in US schools. Don't get me wrong, most schoolteachers are wonderful. But when we happen upon the ones that make shocking spelling errors, mislead children about a word rather than admit they do not know, or simply do not care to help those lagging behind, what are we parents to do?

Well, for starters we work like hell with our kids at home, and open our veins to pay for supplemental instruction elsewhere. But we also have every right to stand up, speak out and hold the system accountable.

This need not be a negative and hateful act. If made and received in the proper spirit, critique can rejuvenate and enrich educational content. In reviewing a sixth-grade Astronomy textbook, my research turned up a website corroborating my reservations about its content, listing several pages of glaring errors. I promptly made a copy and shared it with the principal as well as the science teacher.

Not even Professor Witzel, I am sure, would read malevolence into my doing that. Then why is it that the moment the text involves history and culture, the defenders of Business as Usual stop listening and start swarming about like hornets? We need to move this debate to higher ground.

(TO BE CONTINUED)
Chitra Raman
Grosse Pointe, USA
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
28
Ghulam,

Here's a link which you can do your own research without having to rely on second hand interpretations.


http://www.hinduismtoda...ks/Bajpai_CPR_edits.pdf


http://en.wikipedia.org...du_textbook_controversy
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
29
Dear Ghulam:

The edits as of Nov.5 are available in exact form on the web. Please tell me where those constitute "white-washing", and are in any way inconsistent with California's rules for middle school textbooks:

1. Every child must be allowed to take pride in his/her heritage
2. No religion shall be held up to ridicule and, none shall be demeaned.

How does introducing pictures of latrine cleaners, and tales of woman-abuse, as these Latrine Scholars Witzel and Thapar want to do, fit there?

There may be people who believe in various things that appear unrealistic to those with little scientific imagination - people like these "historians" who can only parrot dead bigot, but do no logical thinking.
For instance, Muslims believe that Allah spoke to Mohammed. Yeah? Any Historical Accuracy there?

Christians believe that Adam and Eve ate an apple, saw a worm, and promptly did hootchie-kootchie. Historical evidence? Whom did Abel and Cain marry - each other? How did they make babies? Oh, I forgot, Abel and Cain killed each other, didn't they?

So why don't the textbooks use "scientific accuracy" when it comes to these religions? Aren't Witzel and Thapar liars for distorting the ISSUES in California, and calling all of us "extremists"?

How long do you think we will tolerate this sort of abuse from these damned liars who can't even read and right the language of their supposed expertise?

They think they have "won" today, like the Japanese "won" at Pearl Harbor and the British "won" at Jalianwala Bagh.

Let them celebrate while they can. Every dog has it's day after all, sorry to insult dogs by comparison to Witzel and Thapar.



Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
30
MY RESPONSE, PART 2

The first question I had after reading this article was-- What exactly is meant by "Hindutva?" To me, the word suggests knowledge, consciousness and pride in what it means to be Hindu. As a parent, my hope is to convey that sentiment to my child. Is that evil?

On St. Patrick's Day at school my daughter is asked to wear green clothes, eat green apples, green doughnuts, read about the tradition, make artwork with that theme. Does this amount to inculcating " Irish ism ?" Or, in order to participate in performances onstage with her class choir, when she is made to sing selections from the Catholic Mass and many other works with an overtly religious motif, should I do a Paul Revere among my fellow Hindus warning of a hidden conversion agenda in schools? Let's shelve the paranoia, shall we?

Professors Witzel, Thapar and their supporters have selectively picked on and repeatedly rehashed for ridicule just a few elements from many changes proposed by HEF and VF. Fine, if certain edits are not entirely acceptable as proposed, let there be further dialogue and investigation of mutually acceptable resolutions; let the theater of debate be opened to more experts with impeccable credentials. And let those who cry "politics" and "hindutva" at every excuse cooperate in keeping unilateralism out of education.

By harping on politics as being the driving agenda of HEF and VF, and expending much verbiage on "exposing" their "hindutva" affiliations, Professors Thapar and Witzel transparently reveal their own priorities to be political. If it were not so, their article would have focused more upon the specifics of those textbooks, and less on character assassination of the opposition.

I think of the climate in the US after 9/11, when airwaves and print were overtaken by apologists for Islam, when spokespersons for that faith were given a fair opportunity to proclaim Islam a religion of peace, to interpret the Koran in the proper light. Despite all the seething in private, I don't remember anyone from Harvard or anywhere else jumping in with their own selective and subjective excerpts from the Koran. It seems only we Hindus need external help to fathom our own faith and culture, and to tell us who we really are.

This is not a video game, where a participant can walk off with a higher score and gloat about how many "hindutva" phantoms he slew. These are our kids, and this is our culture. We will not vanish at the flick of a switch.
Chitra Raman
Grosse Pointe, USA
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
31
GHULAM Y FARUKI

If she is so honest, then where were she and the Nazi Witzel all these years? What were they doing in the last 20 years? Why haven’t they cleared all these nonsense about Hinduism in the first place? Aren’t they “eminent historians” as they claim themselves to be at the drop of a hat, responsible for guarding their “profession”?

>>> Removal of all anti-Hindu prejudicial material should of course be done…
>>> If these reasonable changes comprised the full extent of the amendments…

Since she or any of her fellow travelers have not answered, or not able to answer any of these questions only shows their true colors. They are the ones who are pushing their agenda. They are not unbiased by any stretch of imagination. In fact they are the lowest possible scum of a human being, playing with the minds of impressionable little children in order to achieve their goals.
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
32
CHITRA RAMAN

You go girl. Good for you. We will stand by you all the way.
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
33
As I have said several times before, different standards should not be applied to different religions. Ideally what I would like to see is Indian Muslims joining with Hindus to remove objectionable material being taught to children about Hindu religion and history, and Indian scholars helping restore the glory to Muslim history in text books used in India, so that Muslim students in India are not made to feel abased at their own history. But unfortunately that will not happen, at least in the foreseeable future. As Thapar says the NRI's in USA keep pouring money in the coffers of the RSS, the very people engaged in demonizing Muslim history in Indian history books. I do however sincerely believe that Hindu school children in this country should not be exposed to anything that is demeaning to their culture.

Old Mac, thanks for the links.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
34
The fundamentalist lobby, i.e. Thapar and her children make it sound that links with RSS are enough to make you unfit for any human contact. Isn't it most ironical that card carrying Marxists speak platitudes about truth and integrity when their whole ideology rests on suppression of freedom of speech and thought and marked Anti National and subversive activities? In fact, being a Marxist is at least as bad, if not more, than being a Nazi or a fascist. Readers, pls go through the 'scholarly' writings of the Harvard Prof. You will find nothing more than vitriolic personal attacks. Just go through the edits which they are opposing. Their not so hidden agenda will become all the more clearer.
ankush poddar
Kolkata, India
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
35
Come on , Ghulam:

"As Thapar says the NRI's in USA keep pouring money in the coffers of the RSS, the very people engaged in demonizing Muslim history in Indian history books."

You have evidence of this, other than "as Thapar says"? Again, let us compare how much funds are raised in the US for spending in India by
a) Catholic Church / charities
b) Protestant Church/ charities like "ActionAID", "WorldVision", and all those Jesuit and other Conversionist entities
c) Islamic organizations. Yes, please include Hawala estimates there, since that might be 90% of it.

And then compare how much is this "RSS" fundraising if any.

As we have proven very clearly, Romilla Thapar is a liar who lies for money and power. If the basis for some belief is that it is "as thapar says", then, dear Ghulam, it is 99.999% certain that it is false.

How tough is it for you to understand and accept facts and logic, and see something which is THAT clear?

Unlike Thapar, Witzel etc, some of us here live by facts and logic, not by parroting dead bigots with brains shut off. I am beginning to wonder about you, Ghulam.
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
36
Oh boy!!! all the lunatics will be out in full force now. I predict a deluge of posts. May be the Muslim bashing will take a rest but I doubt it.

This wasn't much of a fight…more like a slaughter. It was the intellectual equivalent of Muhammad Ali smacking down a malnourished Sub-Saharan little girl with Rickets. But it will have long-term effects. The subcommittee voted down unanimously every Chaddi proposed revision that Witzel and Co. disputed.

Justice Brandeis of the United States Supreme Court said, "Sunlight is the best disinfectant." In this controversy, the sunlight of open debate has begun disinfecting the vermin pushing these ridiculous revisions.

To be sure, there were some gross inaccuracies (Hindi is written written in Arabic as opposed to Devanagiri script) in the textbooks, which everyone agreed ought to be changed. However, in the disputed areas…the only areas that really mattered to the Chaddis…they went down in flames.

This is a case study in Chaddi mentality. Their detachment from reality; their inability to foresee the result of meandering amateurs with no allegiance to truth taking on professional academics that crisply communicate on point with structure and coherence; their confusion between blustery rhetoric and compelling arguments. Unlike in India, this failed attempt at Hindutva hucksterism might permanently damage its credibility in the US. Next time, they show up, they will be politely listened to and shown the door. Websites like
http://www.indiantruth.org/
will monitor and counter their activities no matter in which avatar they…ahem…reincarnate. Prof. Bajpai's credibility, which was unknown, will be damaged beyond repair unless he says the Chaddis duped him. Either way, he will be useless as an expert in any future dispute. He will keep his day job of running the Sex Research Center.

There will be well-spoken types who will beat their breasts, “These are our kids, and this is our culture. We will not vanish at the flick of a switch.” Teach your kids about your culture. Just don't expect taxpayers to subsidize and legitimate your propaganda. Nobody wants them to vanish…at the flick of a switch or a finger. But everyone will…if they continue to argue that truth is less important than public relations.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
37
Ankush writes:

>>The fundamentalist lobby, i.e. Thapar and her children make it sound that links with RSS are enough to make you unfit for any human contact.

Bit of an overstatement...but not by much. I would say unfit for any benefit of the doubt.

>>Isn't it most ironical that card carrying Marxists speak platitudes about truth and integrity when their whole ideology rests on suppression of freedom of speech and thought and marked Anti National and subversive activities?

Where do disconnected thoughts fit in?

>>Their not so hidden agenda will become all the more clearer.

Can Indians ever use the word "agenda" apart from "hidden"? May be we think it's one word instead of an adjective and a noun.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
38
GHULAM Y FARUKI

You sound more like a closeted Jihadi than a reasonable and debatable Muslim. I am starting to wonder your true nature?

Where is your proof for this? If any, it is the barbaric Aurangazeb’s rule that has been completely white washed, his stifling tax policy called Jaizya on Hindus based on Sharia, for the only crime of Hindus being Hindus, his outright barbarity of executing the venerable Sikh Guru, Guru Teg Bahadur. Another barbarian Akbar has been portrayed as a “liberal” Muslim while in reality he slaughtered in one single day 50,000 SURRENDERED Rajput soldiers. Akbar’s kidnapping, raping and maintaining a harem consisting of women folks of defeated Rajput’s has been portrayed as him accepting women of other religion, what a pathetic attempt at white washing his barbarity. So whose history is being white washed here?
>>> As Thapar says the NRI's in USA keep pouring money in the coffers of the RSS, the very people engaged in demonizing Muslim history in Indian history books
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
39
Here we go again, may be somebody from OLD MAC’s church should put a cock in this favorite altar boy’s mouth again. He is desperately crying, as usual without any knowledge or facts, for attention here.
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
40
Romila Thapar is symbolic of the disease called the Indian left. These bastards usurped History departments in India( with much help from their political bosses), made sure that nonleftist views on Indian History were stifled, and generally ran roughshod with lots of power and little accountability.

Add to this stew, white supremacists, eurocentrics and other willing Indian lick spittle, we get a anti-hindu hate factory that has published and disseminated hatred against Hindus unchallenged for decades. They have systematically villified, slandered, spread falsehoods about the Hindu peoples.

Romila Thapar talks about "TRUTH". Don't believe her. There is no such thing in History. The assertion only shows her mediocrity. No History is ever objective or "the truth". It is funny to see her talk about truth as though Historical theories are unchanging. What the old hag means is the "truth" that her cartel of historians are manufacturing and selling!! Her cartel of self hating Indians, white supremacists, christian missionaries and the anti-hindu sorts.....

Hindus need to recognize that History is a war of memes (information). It is about controlling the manufacture and distribution of information. Unless we found our own Historical research, scholars and Unversity departments, we will forever be at the mercy of white supremacists and old hags, begging for fair representation.

Perhaps this generation of Hindus will be more aggressive and smarter than the previous ones. If we can control Historical memes, then witzel , thapar etc, will be consigned to where they truly, truly, belong: the dustbin of mediocrity.

For History is always about politics......

SC
TN, USA
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
41
Why doesn't Romila Thapar give up her Hindutva baiting. She selectively mentions where the Hindutva lobby is wrong. Her faulty/ biased research on Ram Janmabhoomi lead to among other things some of the worst riots India has seen. Now what do you want Romila? Ensure that all Hindus are killed/ converted & Hindu religion is erased from history. You would be very successful. With Hindus like you who needs enemies.
Manoj
New Delhi, india
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
42
"Unless we found our own Historical research, scholars and Unversity departments, we will forever be at the mercy of white supremacists and old hags, begging for fair representation."

I meant " unless we fund.." above ....
errata for an earlier post..
SC
TN, USA
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
43
>Romila Thapar is India’s best known historian, Prof. emeritus of Jawaharlal Nehru University (New Delhi), *and the first Kluge Chair (Library of Congress)*

Ah, the pink has been replaced by the stars and the stripes, as usual. And I noticed the *we Americans*! :-) How long before the professor starts working for the Pew/Templeton foundation, providing contract research for the evangelist machine? Maybe they even arranged for her to be there, who knows?

I have a word of advice for the folks boiling against sister Romila -- don't waste your time, teach your kids Indian philosophy instead. It would also help if you support reviving Indian philosophy *in India* (instead of in Harvard), and engage with western academic philosophers. Trying to change textbooks is the wrong way to assert a tradition, particularly a philosophical tradition. Only Communist morons think that adding their version of history to textbooks would perpetuate their view of the world. Look at what happened to them after all the textbook design.

I personally wouldn't want all American schoolchildren to grow up thinking India is/was wonderful, when it is not (and when all American schoolchildren do not exactly grow up into the kind of people we would want respect from:). It would be better if *some of them* found out about what India has to offer later in their life, after they have done some critical thinking. The ones who do not do critical thinking can (and probably should) keep thinking of cows, caste, software and outsourcing, and watch Faux TV. The more textually-inclined ones can read Romila Thapar's compilations on India for the Library of Congress.

BTW, academics are like terrorists -- the best way to beat them is to ignore them, and their exploits.
chandra
Portland, USA
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
44
"Romila Thapar is simply India's most fraudulent academic...."
That is understating matters... ;-)

SC
TN, USA
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
45
The range of opinions that is permissible in this company is narrow. It is not long before one's bona fides get questioned. If you do not totally share their opinions that Thapar is untruthful, or that the RSS is benign, or that Indians have nothing to be proud of in Mughal history, you run the risk of becoming persona non grata. There are still some posters in this forum who show some depth and independence in their thinking, so visiting here remains worthwhile.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
46
Ganesan writes:
"The greatest historian in India, RC Majumdar was traduced because he refused to toe the party line.None of his books got published by the IHRC controlled by Thapar and co. They have used the choicest of abuses against those who questioned them. One example is how they treated BB Lal. They quoted him in their works and then when he refused to toe their line on the Ayodhya issue, he became a "communalist". And he was abused all day long."

"She and her cohorts are experts in name calling.."

Just illustrates the importance of politics, information control and dissemination in History. The Indian commies are adept at it. Thapar was apparently very close to the Nehrus and had their backing, says a lot about thapar the "Eminent Historian".

Arun Shourie's book, "Eminent Historians" rips to shreds any credibility Thapar and her cohorts have. Infact mention Shourie and the old Hag goes into conniptions!!
SC
TN, USA
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
47
Romila Thapar is of course a thoroughly discreditable political scoundrel and liar. Few chracters are more dishinest and utterly contemptible. As well as VERY boring.

But the Hindus are completely in the wrong on this one.

What is the problem, O Hindus? Just tell the TRUTH. Admit your religion has very serious faults: chiefly, oppression of Dalits, women and the callous doctrine of karma. Spill it out !! Let the Americans see all the dirt of Hinduism. Don't be worried if this doesn't get Hindus a pretty "brand image" as the slick marketing liar Rajiv Malhotra would like.....Of course, also mention whatever good Hinduism happens to have. In particular, mention its unequalled philosophical freedom.

And leave it at that. Leave fear of truth to fools and Muslims.

If the Mosaic Trio - Judaism, Christianity, Islam - insist on lying through their duplicitous teeth - so be it ! Hinduism will shine in comparison.

Or Hindu parents could take the Califorcia School Board to court. Point out that THEIR religion has been depicted in starkly truthful terms. Say they wiill be damned if their hapless kids are going to be brainwashed by totalitarian drivem from the Mosaic Trio....That would be a gutsy stand. Not the miserable, cowardly, crooked Malhotra line that says because Jews, Muslims, Christinas are all lying to school kids, Hindus must lie too.
Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
48
Thapar's work is the acme of poltical obscenity. But then, so is Rajiv Malhotra's. Both are arrant liars, though from opposite angles.

What has malhotrab got so much againbst depicting India in "Cow, Caste, Curry" terms? What is so bad about cows and curry? It shows how little Malhotra has in common with REAL Hinduism that he keeps sneering at cows and curry. They are a very large part of India, as is caste.
Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
49
Ghulam Y Faruki -
While I strongly agree that "Removal of all anti-Hindu prejudicial material should of course be done, but this should not be an excuse to ram through an extremist Hindutva agenda.", I wonder what "eye-opening" material Ms. Thapar has given in this article. The entire article is a sorry attempt to discredit and denigrate the other side (the people who seek revision in the text books) as Hindu fundamentalists and at the same time to paint her gang as exemplars of academic excellence. I havent seen any proof to advance her theory of history, whatever it may be. Satellite picutres of the Saraswati river bed are not sufficient? Then sample some of the proofs for the Aryan Invasion Theory -
* Nose sizes (of men)
* Chest sizes (of men)
* No (so far) unihorn seal found.

If this article by Ms. Thapar qualifies as a scholarly one, then ignoble prize is equal to nobel prize.
Sriram
Chennai, India
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
50
The problem with Thapar is that she is more of a political propagandist than a historian. And that penchant for propaganda shows in this article. The proposed changes in textbooks need to be debated on their own merits. If historical evidence is on her side, as Thapar claims, why is that she tries to shout down dissenters not merely through labeling (eg: 'Hindutva') but by associating the proposers of text-book changes with what their alleged ideology ('Hindutva') allegedly says outside of those text-book changes?

Let us use Thapar's own logic. The people opposing the changes proposed by California Hindus are not only corrupt crooks, but also Marxist fundamentalists. That they are corrupt is shown by Arun Shourie in his brilliant book, "Eminent Historians". Shourie shows how a cabal of "historians" have looted the Indian taxpayer by their control of state-funded institutions like ICHR. Thapar has been on ICHR as many as FOUR times, as if there is a dearth of historians in India, and as if without the presence of Her Eminence on the Council, ICHR could not have functioned. (Only after Shourie exposed the corruption of this bunch that people like Thapar started enacting the drama of rejecting state awards: last year, the UPA government nominated her for Padmasri -- as if control of ICHR for so many years was not an award in itself! -- which Thapar 'rejected'.)

Similarly, the people opposing suggested changes in CA books are Marxist fundamenalists. Far from repudiating this genocidal ideology called Marxism, Thapar acknowledged that she is a follower of it. The Black Book of Communism documents how Marxism has murdered 80 million poeple world over. Only yesterday, Marxist fundamentlists -- whose ideology and Thapar';s ideology is the same -- have murdered 20 innocent villagers in Chattisgharh. Many Indians fear that the marxist agenda in India also is to effect massacres on a large scale to eliminate all opposition.

So it is indeed frightening as to who are opposing the proposed textbook changes: people who looted Indian taxpayer, and people whose ideology is the genocidal Marxism.
V Rajan
Chennai (Madras), India
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
51
Another interesting factoid about Romila Thapar as revealed by Shourie, revealing how 'disinterested' this lady is in using taxpayer funds for her own benefit:

In 1972, there was a proposal before ICHR to translate Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan's books on Indian history and culture into Indian languages. An ICHR committee constituted to look into the matter shot down the proposal, and voted instead to translate the books of some other historians. Among those authors whose books were selected to be translated by the said committee is Comrade Thapar. Now here is the twist: Comrade Thapar herself was on the committee! In other words, she voted her own books to be translated!! Obviously, the bunch of manipulators on that committee never heard of phrases like "conflict of interest" or "vested interest", or, if they heard them, ignored them in the knowledge of the fact that no harm would come their way.

Such are the people who are opposing the proposed CA textbook changes. Disgusting, to put it mildly. India needs historians of character and integrity, not those who exploited the state apparatus with impunity.
V Rajan
Chennai (Madras), India
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
52
And apart from voting her own books to be translated, Comrade Thapar also recommended the translation of books of other eminent historians like:

Rajni Plame Dutt: Leader of Communist Party
EMS Namboodripad: Leader of Communist Party

Shourie is worth quoting in the original:

"By a brain-wave a milch-cow was thought up : it is no use having books only in English, these worthies, dedicated as they were to the cause of the illiterate downtrodden Indians, argued; we must have the works of leading historians translated into our regional languages. And which were the "historians" whose books -- old, in many cases out-of-date books -- got selected for translation ? R S Sharma : five books. Romila Thapar : three books. Irfan Habib : two books -- one being a collection of articles. Bipan Chandra : two books. Muhammad Habib : three books. D N Jha : two books. S Gopal : four books. Nurul Hasan : two books.... In a word, the "historians" discovered, I am sure much to their embarrassment, that they were themselves the leading historians ! All these, but not Professor R C Majumdar ! Even sundry leaders of the Communist parties got the honour -- E. M. S. Namboodripad, P C Joshi, even Rajni Palme Dutt, the leader of the British Communist Party who functioned as the controller and director of the Indian Communists in the forties. As a result, the books and pamphlets of these fellows are available in all regional languages, but the works of even Lokmanya Tilak are not available except in Marathi! And that too because of the Kesari Trust, no thanks to the ICHR."

Is the California Textbooks body aware of this facts? Are its members aware of what kind of people are opposing the proposed textbook changes?
V Rajan
Chennai (Madras), India
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
53
Rajan:

You cite Arun Shourie in your favour.....Well, his book on the "Eminent Historians" had some good stuff, but he himself is prepared to go to any extent to cover up the crimes of caste Hinduism. He is a political prostitute, therefore, just like Thapar or Arundhati Roy or Vinay Lal or Kuldip Nayar etc etc.....Thre is such a huge tribe of them !

None of this sad crew realises that the most powrful, devastating weapon in political controversy is TRUTH, fearless, impartial truth. Gandhi was wrong about a lot of things, but I hugely respect him for one magnificent piece of advice in his "experiments with Truth": The truth, said Gandhi, is nine-tenths of the law. Be truthful and the law (in civilised countries) will naturally come to your aid.

That is what the US HIndus should do. Be unsparingly truthful about their own religion and then take the school authorities to court for using Chritian and Jewish and Muslim propaganda in school textbooks. It will catch the American imagination and could become a landmark case, as well as bringing respect to Hinduism.

Go for it !!!
Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
54
The 9 pages of reader comments so far, prove why Romilla Thapar describes herself as "INDIA'S MOST FAMOUS HISTERIAN"

Like Saddam Hussein is IRAQ'S MOST FAMOUS LEADER.

Or Witzel is HARVARD'S MOST FAMOUS PROFESSOR.
Or ENRON IS AMERICA'S MOST FAMOUS CORPORATION.

OUTLOOK is clearly India's most famous rag. Great Expose on the Witzel-Thapar frauds. It has been clearly shown here that they are both utterl liars, hate-mongers, bigots, and racists. The worst Communist-Nazi marriage since Stalin and Hitler kissed.
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
55
Southall Sandhu once again does what he does best - distort the issue.

The issue here is MIDDLE SCHOOL TEXTBOOKS. The criteria for what should be in there are very clearly specified:

1. Textbooks should convey to every child, PRIDE in his or her heritage.
2. NO religion or culture shall be held up to ridicule.

The issue is NOT about taking Christianity or Islam to court, and it is NOT about airing dirty laundry on the 6-th grade student's head, as Witzel, Thapar and Sandhu want us to do.

That is where the line between Truth and Dishonesty lies, and Sandhu lies.

If California is "civilized", the truth will prevail - and the truth is the honest enforcement of the law passed by the citizens.

So far there is no evidence that the California Board of Education is civilized. They have shown themselves to be utterly corrupt, dishonest, arrogant and rude.

One of their big achievements is that their Staff (a bunch of bigots worse than the KKK) "kicked the chair away" when Ms. Janeshwari Devi, the representative of the Vedic Foundation, was about to sit down at their Panel meeting.

These savages must be fired, taken to court and punished most severely, if California has any claim to "civilization". Surely we don't want California to get a reputation like Sandhu's United Queendom, where the mass murderer Michael O'Dwyer was freed because the "Judge" told the "Jury" that

"Whatever Colonel Dwyer is alleged to have done, please remember that he Saved the British Empire"

Sandhu, please stop distorting the issue.
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
56
Indian history was and still remains a very hard thing to grasp. It is too extensive (the British always thought India would be better a loose federation than a democracy) and so the tradition of continuous and relatively objective recording of history is quite simply absent. Maybe, the "extensiveness" alluded to above, rendered such a tradition impossible. To illustrate this point, the 1875 edition of the Encycopaedia Britannica mentions consumption of beef by the protoganists of the Ramayan. History should be unsparingly truthful. But, in the case of Indian history, that element of truth MUST be applied to all the players, including those from outside the Indian subcontinent (whether Islamic or Christian, good and bad) clearly, and not merely to the Aryan/Dravidian strains of existence. Otherwise, this debate will produce nothing more than history which is basically one-sided and merely a "fable agreed upon". Also if I may add, to its advantage, Hinduism does not have as deeply embedded in its structure the practice of proselytism as do some of the monotheistic faiths. The respect of one's fellow-human may be all well-and-good and thoroughly nice to have, but if it will not translate to anything tangible, it is really quite meaningless.
Raveesh Varma
Grand Rapids, MI, USA
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
57
Ari saja:

The crieria specified for school textbooks in California, you say, demand that the "should convey to every child, PRIDE in their heritage; hold no religion or culture up to ridicule."

What if the California school child is a Dalit, like me? You never considered that possibility, did you? How would smoothly covering up or leaving out Hinduism's incredibly cruel past and present of utmost oppression of his (the child's) people be conducive his "pride in his heritage"? Is that not like telling a Jewish child in Germany that for the sake of the child's pride in his heritage the history of Nazsm is not going to be mentioned in his history textbooks?

Besides, what makes you so sure that telling the honest and terrible truth about Hinduism will not make Hindu children feel pride in at least the TRUTHFULNESS of their religion?

As for ridicule: What's so terrivble about ridiculing Hinduism in the class if it IS ridiculous - like drinking cow's urine, etc? Ask for other religions to be ridiculed also. But once again, if that is no go: don't be afraid to laugh at our own religion !!! This might actually earn Hinduism involuntary respect from the thick-skulled self-satisfied oafs of Islam etc.

As for janeshwar Devi who was denied a chair by the California Board of Education: shame them by sitting on the floor like a good Hindu !
Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
58
OLD MAC:

http://www.indiantruth.org/


Any reason NOT one of the 47 Witzel "experts" have signed on that site?
Why not? Are they now really reading before signing? Eh? Something to ponder right?
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
59
Sandhu,
>>What if the California school child is a Dalit, like me? You never considered that possibility, did you?

Absolutely.
As a "Harijan" I would talk to my kid about:

Vyasa (Harijan - born to a fisherwomen) wrote wrote or compiled the Vedas, Bhagavad Gita and Mahabharata.

OR

Valmiki, a hunter, and hence an Adivasi, authored the Ramayana.
OR
Tiruvalluvar, a Paraiyah by birth, wrote the most celebrated treatise in Tamil: the Tirukkural
OR talk to them about the great Saiva and Vaishnava Bhakti saints, the Nayanmars and Azhwars, the names of many celebrated Harijan saints such as Tiru Panazhwar, Tirumazhisai Azhwar, Enati Nayanar, Kannappa Nayanar, Atipattar Nayanar, Anayar Nayanar, Kaliar Nayanar, Tirukkurippu Tondar Nayanar, Tiru Nilakanta Nayanar, Tiru Nilakanta Yazhpanar and Nantanar Nayanar come to mind.

OR tell them about how "Low caste" people Purandara Dasa and Kanaka dasa in Karnataka wrote some of the hymns and bhajans that are sung by devote hindus even today.

There's a whole big list I can go on.
-----------
OR
------------
You can make your kid feel really proud by having him worship your toilet seat every day.

I have no doubts on the option you'll choice.
My sympathies with your little kid.


Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
60
Sridhar:

Heh heh heh !!!

I feel I must be getting something important dead right when I am cursed so venemously by bigoted Muslims AND bigoted Hindus AND the pseudo-secular political prostitutes.....Hoooray !!!!

As for your preferred method of making children proud of Himnduism - ie., worshipping your toilet seat - I respectfully decline. That may be a method that worked with your children. There is a more effective method: telling them - and everyone - the honest, cruel history and present of Hinduism, adding that at least we have the guts to tell the truth, unlike the oafs and cowards of Islam, etc.

Meanwhile I am entertained by the picture of Ms Jananeshwar Devi sitting on the floor facing the "KKK" California Education Board, coolly sipping her glass of honest cow's urine......Heh heh heh !!!
Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
61
I find particularly pitiable this fear of the caste Hindu propagandists about Hinduism being LAUGHED at.....How infantile ! What is so terrible about being ridiculed? Don't they have a sense of humour? Are they like Muslims, who can't take a joke?

Alexander Herzen once remarked that no faith or ideal at which it was forbidden to LAUGH was worth anything...I wholly agree. As a Dalit, I am very bitter about Hindu caste oppression, and naturally investigated the posiibilities offered by Islam. But I was quickly alienated from Islam by it sombre, totalitarian humourlessness.
Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
62
"An ideal or faith at which we are forbidden to laugh is worthless." - Alexander Herzen

He lived in the nineteenth century, but he could have been talking of the Cartoon Crisis or the Hindu california School Book Hullaballoo...

Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
63
Rajiv Sandhu,then the best faith left for you to always laugh or share your sense of humour is christianity as they always laugh at other faiths.And they may be doing so by offending other faiths like what we see in the cartoon controversy or the advertisement of a liquor deneigrating another faith.This is not accidental but done with intent just to provoke.And if you derive pleasure calling yourself a dalit and laughing at caste hindus there wont be any lunatic like you in the southall/we call this attitude as throwing stone at bamboo trees.Makes no sense out of it.
rajdeep
Bangalore, India
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
64
GHULAM Y FARUKI,
I am teaching my kids true history of Islam also, Mohammad marriage with his own daughter-in-law and other 26 wives. I believe in true history. Projecting and teaching truth is my Param Dharma.
Are you teaching your kids truth of Islamic tradition eg When woman get raped she should bring 4 witness to quazi and prove her innocence.

By the way you should work towards helping Muslim Dalit also.

I am proud Hindu and Hindutava is my Dharma.
I want my kids to learn truth about Vedic History as you are teaching real truth about Islamic History.
I don't want History written by Communist Thappar or language instructor Fascist Witzel or any morons or jokers from IER group.
Maharishi
San Francisco, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
65
Rajiv Sandhu,if you think you are a reformed dalit then I am afraid you are not.Lets be practical.Leave caste hindus where they are if you think they are not an improving lot.Instead of wasting your entire life on what others did in the past why dont you spell out being in southall what you have did for your poor fellow dalits back in india.Do you have any solutions rather than the suggestions for them.Have you made any least effort to rehabilitate or help one dalit by getting him to southall as i have indicted to you in my earlier posts that to take the example of the indian muslims who settled in dubai did for thier fellow muslims and the network effect and not waiting for some one to lift them come up in life.Do you agree.Be serious and keep your sense of humour for some bar-be-cue party.
rajdeep
Bangalore, India
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
66
Maharishi,well said as we have seen both christians and muslims open thier holy books when ever they are caught for a wrong doing on free speech forums.I am not going into the inner aspects of any faith as any reforms is forbidden in islam.I appreciate that you are teaching your kids the truth of all relegions.they must not be under the impression that hinduism is the old faith and out dated while islam and christianity is modern.How good these are is a fine example in the recent cartoon controversy.Islam will be more exposed by these controversies.Its good for islam the more is known of it or for any other faith.well,hinduism is like an open book or a open source code,Nothing to hide as it has nothing to fear.
rajdeep
Bangalore, India
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
67
Hmm... I see you can't even read, Sandhu. Can you? Went to school in California with Raju Rajagopal's kids? Or is that too fault of some "Hindutavadins" that you miss the elephant in the room?

Some fake "Dalit" sardars were lobbying pretty hard at CA SBE about their job of latrine cleaning and the author Witzel here too put some videos of the same on his website.

The standards of the CA board are pretty clear in terms of content being able to instill a sense of pride in the children. So if these fake sardars (who were obiviously hired by FOSA, like Sandhu here) seek instill pride by the toilet seats cleaned by them, why stop them? I say, put in toilet seats in text books. Maybe one edition of that fragrance kind books that might please the fantasies of Sandhu.
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
68
Sridhar:

You are welcome to worship toilet seats, if that is your wont.....But you err in including me in your slightly bizarre, though no doubt harmless, cult.

Btw, if I can't read, it seems you can't write even half-way correct English. Maybe it is due to the toliet seats fixation?
Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
69
Sandhu,

Only ones who were fixated with toilet seats are your buddy Witzel and couple fake-sardars who showed up on Monday boasting of their years of experience in toilet cleaning. Witzel and Farmer ran a full length feature video of Dalits cleaning toilets on IER.

Dalits loving latrines should worship toilet seats. They should read about in textbooks too.
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
70
madam, excellent peice. it is sad to see that RSS is spreading its tentacles of narrowmindedness, hatred and stupidity across the globe. they have to be stopped at all costs. don't worry about the weasels here shouting (barking) their filth. i think it is time sensible hindus become violent and teach these chimps a lesson or two.
chaddi gang should limit its antics to chaddisville ( nagpur).
every word in your article makes perfect sense. thanks.
nits
nashville, USA
Mar 01, 2006 12:00 AM
71
Somebody said what on display in this article is paranoia. I rather think it is rabble-rousing. "History in danger!", "Academics in danger!" etc are to the Romila Thapar school of politics what "Islam in danger!" is to Islamic fundamentalists.
Narsing Gowd
Secunderabad, India
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
72
NITS

You should change your name to NUTS, then every thing you said will make sense.

Only your opening word in the nonsense you spewed was correct. She is a madam alright, but unfortunately she is in Delhi instead of where she really belongs, which is Las Vegas.
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
73
rsk, listen, quantify what you said. why did you say what you said?
i can throw you a challenge to prove what she said is wrong. ready?
nits
nashville, USA
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
74
Err NUTS...why does anyone else have to "quantify" when you don't. Can you "quantify" your statements.
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
75
my contention is that everything Ms thapar wrote is correct. it is your prerogative to prove it wrong.
for ex. you might say that
dalits were created by moghuls ( as per ashok singhal)
plane was invented in pune by a RSS chaddi gangmember ( as per rss historian)
or other points
so moron, it is upto you to list the points on which you contend that ms thapar is wrong
nits
nashville, USA
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
76
Reading through the comments it appears that except for the usual suspects(southall fellow, Gulam, NUTS) no one is taken in by Witzel and Thapper. They did not explain why edits requested by HAF and VF are incorrect. Even worse not one word about why Hindu children should be descriminated as compared to Muslim and Christian children. The whole article is nothing but charector assasination and demonizing Hindus without adressing any of issues mentioned in the edits. If these folks are scholars we Hindu parents have every right to question what passes as scholarship in Humanities.
Malavika
san jose, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
77
NUTS,

Here is the link for you to enlighten yourself.

By the way if some body says something, then they have to prove it in the first place, burden of proof is theirs. Without providing any proof what so ever, no body can accuse others of anything. Where is the proof for all the accusations she threw at others.

Now I see how your twisted world works. Throw some garbage at others and pass the burden of proof on to them do disprove it. By the time they disprove it, you ass holes will move on to another topic and the cycle starts all over again.
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
78
oops,

here is the link


http://www.india-forum.com/
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
79
Thapar and Witzel have cleverly inserted an episode concerning a certain academic in Kansas. The inuendo is "whoa...we'll be next targets". The Indian community is by far the most law-abiding and its record speaks for itself. Painting an entire community as axe-wielding fundamentalists via inuendo is a cheap gimmick. California School Board had in a public announcement asked for input from the community over eight months back. Regular members of the community assembled in temples every sunday afternoon for months together before putting up a decent set of edits. There was not even a hint of politics. If there was anything "political" in the whole show, it was the intervention of Witzel and the 47 thieves.

It is no surprise that the 47 thieves or the members of the ultra-left FOSA never knew that changes were underway until the last minute. The meetings were held in temples - a place detested by marxists.
Nikhil Malhotra
Nashville, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
80
>> "1. Textbooks should convey to every child, PRIDE in his or her heritage"

I fully support this proposition, but does it also apply to Muslim children in India? Or are we going to be Malhotras in America, concerned about the minds of young children, and be Sandhus in India, throwing all such caution to the wind? I ask this because the same RSS from which the California parents draw inspiration has been actively engaged in rewriting Indian history in such a way that one wonders what effect it has on the minds of Muslim children.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
81
This part is very funny. I am not sure what she is trying to say here, but my take is that she is trying to intimidate Hindus and who ever opposes their baloney. If this is the case, then it is a pathetic attempt. God’s sake, even the most wanted terrorist hiding in Afghan caves has numerous web site maintained by fellow jihadists. Big deal.

Also her attempt at teaching “our” children just pisses me off. Who in the right mind will teach all these garbage to their 11 or 12 year old kid? Just shut the fuck up, you disgusting vile bitch.

>>> In order to counteract this threat to the integrity of the material taught to our children, an international council of scholars, called The Academic Indology Advisory Council, (cf.
http://www.indiantruth.org/
) has been formed
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
82
I think GHULAM Y FARUKI is a parrot, just repeating the same thing over and over and over. You have never responded to my earlier reply, but instead chose to repeat your imaginary grievances.

Here is my previous post

GHULAM Y FARUKI

You sound more like a closeted Jihadi than a reasonable and debatable Muslim. I am starting to wonder your true nature?

Where is your proof for this? If any, it is the barbaric Aurangazeb’s rule that has been completely white washed, his stifling tax policy called Jaizya on Hindus based on Sharia, for the only crime of Hindus being Hindus, his outright barbarity of executing the venerable Sikh Guru, Guru Teg Bahadur. Another barbarian Akbar has been portrayed as a “liberal” Muslim while in reality he slaughtered in one single day 50,000 SURRENDERED Rajput soldiers. Akbar’s kidnapping, raping and maintaining a harem consisting of women folks of defeated Rajput’s has been portrayed as him accepting women of other religion, what a pathetic attempt at white washing his barbarity. So whose history is being white washed here?
>>> As Thapar says the NRI's in USA keep pouring money in the coffers of the RSS, the very people engaged in demonizing Muslim history in Indian history books
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
83
Oh, "Nits" is "Nit-Wit-zell" I presume?

The logic sounds familiar - same as that in the infamous "Harvard letter" signed by the 40 Thieves and 7 Dwarfs (or is that "Dwarves" - I am a poor engineer/accountant/programmer coolie, in the words of IER's Sepoy Sudha Shenoy, and hence an illiterate Untouchable at IER).

I see that Thapar and NitWitZel have played the Wendy Doniger/ Phallus Courtright card by bringing in the case of the Kansas Anti-Creationist nut.

As far as I know Prof. Paul Mirecki's complaint of being physically assaulted is not proven, and police has had difficulty confirming Merecki's allegation.


http://www.townhall.com.../2005/12/14/178998.html


A year or so ago, U. Chicago Pornography Peddler Wendy Doniger used the same whine, claiming that a flying egg had missed her considerable Collision Cross-Section.

Doniger is the worthy who claims that being a "Hinduism Scholar" makes it so easy for her to get articles published in the so-called "Journal of the American Academy of Religion" (Chief Editor: NitWitzel) and AT THE SAME TIME, get it sold through the porn-peddling channels. Maybe she's the one that writes such Indian Classics as "Rasvanti" ( I forget the names of other such Classics - again I am only an illiterate "Dalit" in IER's Caste System, you know. )

Not to be outdone, Phallus Courtright of Emory University ( I am using the proper MiddleEaster pronunciation of "Paulus" which is corrupted to "Paul" in uncultured circles) went one better. His PR department went to a Petition that listed exact quotes from his Child Pornography masterpiece, and wrote something that they then immediately tom-tommed as a "Death Threat". Got the Petition withdrawn, so that people could not see the utter gutter-filth that he was peddling.

If you want to see what I mean, please see


http://jitnasa.india-forum.com/


But now these two twerps have outdone them both - they IMAGINE that an IMAGINARY attack on some idiot by other idiots means that they too, as prize idiots, are in danger. The Kansas imaginary attack was by fundoos who share the same lunacy as NitWitzel's flunky Steven Alan Farmer, a certified Creationist Cretin. And "HINDUTVA" is to blame for that too?

Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
84
I think this is a good point.

>>> No baptism, no poonal, no circumcision for under 18's
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
85
Faruki brings in a very important point. What about Muslim kids in India?

After all, second largest population of Muslims in the world comes from India. So I ask you Mr. Farukki, why don't we see anything in the text books regarding Quran and Hadith version on what and how Kaffirs should be treated. Or for that matter how Muslims have treated women throughout the history. Or how Mohd behaved with his wives? Or Mohd's tolerance to pagan culture in middle east and gulf around that time?

Surely God speaking directly to Mohd while he took short hand notes is an historical fact right? I'm sure Witzel and Thappar or the 47 hacks can't prove it - so why not fight for getting this record straight in the 6th grade books. Now many of muslims went to CA SBE meeting to get this record straight? Did you?

In fact, Shabbir Mansuri, Founding Director of Council on Islamic Education, as its consultant at for CA board on HINDU EDITS!!!

A detailed read on how Allah had it easy in CA can be read here:
California Schools Proselytize for Allah

http://www.frontpagemag...eadArticle.asp?ID=21197


Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
86
Sridhar, if you write about Islam as the militant Dalits write about Hinduism, where does it get us?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
87
So,

BOTTOM LINE: (pardon the pun, after all you believe in humor, Southall Sandhu)

Are you a "Dalit" who

1) DOES clean his own latrine or
2) DOES NOT clean his latrine?


If the latter, do you scratch the ground and cover up your "output" or do you just look for the nearest fire hydrant or lamp-post?

Just curious...
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
88
Ari,

Last year one of Witzel buddies - Anagana Chatterji claimed to have got threats of Rape in Orissa. She didn't even file police complaint and by sheer magic within 24 hours a band of AIDWA supporters showed up protesting a bogus charge - the whole issue was orchestrated and people saw through it.

I'm sure Witzel was disappointed for not getting egg in the face at Harvard Dharma meet. Though the trashing he got in his own field of expertise by a 23 year accountant must have made him feel like some rotten eggs on his face.
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
89
This is one more biased article. It has been written from the point of view of maligning those who are trying to introduce changes that make Hindu religion look respectable in the eyes of the kids for whome the textbooks are meant.
The writer of this passage has not mentioned even one fact (there may or may not be any) that substantiates her point of view.
The writer also needs to understand that whatever is published in the textbooks will have a direct impact on the little kids reading these books. Indian kids already face a lot of challenges in the classes due to a different culture and skin color.
Please try to answer these questions to yourself -
- Do you want our kids (of Indian origin) to feel ashamed when their religion is discussed?
- Do you or your friends have any such kids who will be directly affected by a shameful representation of their religion?
- Have you ever protested against a respectable representation of another religion in the children's textbooks?
- Does teaching a respectable point of view for a religion in any way hurt any one (least of all the kids)
- Is this the place to put forward the realities of ancient India (bad or good) - in front of the young kids?
If you do not care for the self image of these young Indian origin kids, just stay away from such topics and stay away from the country where they are fighting their own battles against other races.
Abhijit Adhikari
Washington DC, USA
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
90
GHULAM Y FARUKI

You are the one to bring in Islam in the first place. FYI all the edits, 100 percent, put forward by the Muslims and also Christians and Jews, has been accepted by the Edu. Board.

Coming back to Sridhar’s suggestion, are you denying they are false accusations or you just want them to be hidden away? I am asking because you did not say your reason for opposing it.

>>> Sridhar, if you write about Islam as the militant Davits write about Hinduism, where does it get us?
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
91
>>Sridhar, if you write about Islam as the militant Dalits write about Hinduism, where does it get us?


Farukki,

Fair enough.

Fairness and equity is more than anything else in this game because there's enough shit to go around.

My point is why's Hinduism being singled out? If you want historically accuracy, let's get historically accuracy in all race/religions/cultures. Surely you can't say that X is a myth while Y is a fact. If you challenge X being a myth, I'll ask you to prove using the same standards that Y is a fact. Not to difficult right?

See how CA board has treated Hinduism against other religions:

http://jitnasa.india-fo...ds/otherreligions_1.htm


I have no quarrels with any religion per say, but if you come with your scantimonious holier-than-thou attitude, don't be surprised if I show you the mirror.
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
92
Sridhar asks, "My point is why's Hinduism being singled out?"

I don't think I ever did that. And I agree that it should not be done.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
93
GHULAM Y FARUKI
Sridhar, if you write about Islam as the militant Dalits write about Hinduism, where does it get us?

Some fools from your community decided to say negative thing about Vedic History in CDE meeting,
They had not given us opportunity to tell negative thing about Islam or Christianity.
So, we know Judge Christian fundamentalist Witzel ,Alan Bresin, Ruth Green were biased, bigot and it was a fraud.
They should resign.
I DEMAND THERE RESIGNATION OR THEY SHOULD COME CLEAN.
Maharishi
San Francisco, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
94
Maharishi says, "Some fools from your community decided to say negative thing about Vedic History in CDE meeting,
They had not given us opportunity to tell negative thing about Islam or Christianity"

I agree that this is not fair. I believe that Hindus and Muslims should work cooperatively on text-book contents both in America and in India.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
95
GHULAM Y FARUKI,
I know communist Romilla Thappar is a fraud, a liar and crook.
My Dharma and Hindutava taught me to be honest and fight for justice.
These commies and fascist forces are shameless

Ari,
Thanks for excellent site www.india-forum.com
I am learning lot from this site. Whole US HINDU community is in pain, atleast it had brought every Hindu together.
I am in tears to learn that Hindus came from every county of California. Communist inside CDE Halls was asked to leave.
One day Raomilla Thappar and her fascist cohorts will get same treatment, kicked out from every society they belong. There 30-40 years of lies are already in open.

I am touched to read one brave person exposed another fraud Bible Thumper Steve Farmer. Now he had declared himself Atheist. And says his thesis should go to Toilet.
I hope we can make tissue paper out of these commies thesis. It will protect lot of trees.

Maharishi
San Francisco, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
96
The central revelation by Witzel and Thapar in their article is their sheer dishonesty.

I for one had never had the "pleasure" of reading the work of Romilla Thapar, "India's Most Famous Hysterical", though I HAVE read the sewage that Witzel signs as his work as the Wales Commode in Sanskrit at Harvard University.

It is quite a revelation to me that Thapar is just another clone of the same low-class frauds, indistinguishable in quality from Angana Chatterji, Shalini FOSA Gera, Steven Alan Farmer, Madhav Deshpande, Wendy Doniger, Phallus Oral Courtright, Biju "UnaBomber" Matthew, Vinay "Meeraj Medical Center" Lal, Raju Rajagopal, Jeffrey "Homo" Kripal or any others among this gang of rotten thieves.

THIS is what represents Indian History at the Library of Congress? ??????

Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
97
this room is toxicated by the RSS cronies. someone call the environment board.
nits
nashville, USA
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
98
we hindus dont like this, we hindus dont like that....
abe gadhon, learn to speak for yourself. right now not more than 20% hindus vote for BJP(big joke party). that makes me a better representative of hindus than chaddi cronies.
and i hereby declare.. that whatever these extremists and morons are doing is incorrect. discussion over! kiddin.....
nits
nashville, USA
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
99
Hello nitwitzel! Judging by your posts, you must be a Lat(r)in(e) Scholar, so I can guess what "room" you are referring to - the one where you do your best thinking, no doubt. So you're one of those who need someone to clean your Lat(r)in(e) and wipe your musharraf too, heh? Yeah, you may have to get the Environment Board to de"toxicate" you. Have you tried "Alcoholics Anonymous"?
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
100
ari raja just showed all of us his growing frustation. dude, do you have any worthwile thing to discuss, or do you just come here to exchange insults?
nits
nashville, USA
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
101
Romila rani is back to stick it to those Hindoos eh?
She must have been waiting to pounce on them following all that brouhaha over her kluge chair appointment. And My, she's got such fabulous company!!

The whole article just castigates any Hindu who questions the veracity of the texts as a Hindutva right winger. Three pages of shrill name calling and no explantion as to why the proposed edits could have been off mark!! Thapar is a politican masquerading as a "scholar". All through her career, Romila has played every dirty trick there is !! Now, she turns around and lectures us about truth!!

Romila rani is the last relic of pre-independent India. All that she seems to have learnt in that period is how to play loyal foot soldier to all those "sahibs".

The delicious irony is those that most dislike and vehemently oppose all that Romila stands for are the same ones who had the misfortune of suffering through highschool texts written by her cohorts ( if not romila herself). So ROmila can write all the textbooks she wants. It ain't gonna help!! Thapar's crusade for a Hindu cultural genocide will fade into oblivion, just like her fraudulent scholarship: unmourned, ridiculed and in time barely remembered ( that too be a few cronies).
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Betelguese, USA
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
102
Chitra Raman writes:

>>As I reached the end of this article, I felt myself thinking: This is just the beginning. That's not meant to sound sinister, I hasten to add, for the benefit of the authors. The only thing grim about me is my determination! Parents tend to be a determined bunch, and thanks to all the red-blooded notoriety this issue has assumed, more parents have become aware that they need to remain aware.

A lot more will be embarrassed that they carelessly signed a dumb petition.

>>Whatever the sages perched on the lofty spires of Harvard may say, we parents are the ones who deal with the steady deterioration in the quality of education in US schools.

Deteriorating curriculum only intensifies the problems.

>>…when we happen upon the ones that make shocking spelling errors, mislead children about a word rather than admit they do not know, or simply do not care to help those lagging behind, what are we parents to do?

Take the lead in educating your children instead of outsourcing it.

>>Well, for starters we work like hell with our kids at home, and open our veins to pay for supplemental instruction elsewhere. But we also have every right to stand up, speak out and hold the system accountable.

By all means. But what you speak out better make sense if your concerns are to be considered seriously.

>>Not even Professor Witzel, I am sure, would read malevolence into my doing that. Then why is it that the moment the text involves history and culture, the defenders of Business as Usual stop listening and start swarming about like hornets?

History and culture are social science disciplines. They are an end result of a specific historical method: sifting evidence; assessing it, individually and contextually; assembling it into a coherent whole. Conclusions have to be supported and least contradicted by the totality of positive and negative evidence…not any one piece of evidence or its absence.

>>We need to move this debate to higher ground.

Under no circumstance will “higher ground” will support mendacities.

>>The first question I had after reading this article was-- What exactly is meant by "Hindutva?" To me, the word suggests knowledge, consciousness and pride in what it means to be Hindu.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.

>> As a parent, my hope is to convey that sentiment to my child. Is that evil?

Nope. But this was about revising textbooks for everyone else’s children.

>>On St. Patrick's Day at school my daughter is asked to wear green clothes…participate in performances onstage with her class choir…, should I do a Paul Revere among my fellow Hindus warning of a hidden conversion agenda in schools? Let's shelve the paranoia, shall we?

You could do either a Paul Revere or a Geraldo Riviera. If you feel it, indulge in paranoia.

Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
103
Chitra Raman continues....

>>…let the theater of debate be opened to more experts with impeccable credentials. And let those who cry "politics" and "hindutva" at every excuse cooperate in keeping unilateralism out of education.

There were no experts, with or without impeccable credentials, supporting the revisions. What does “unilateralism” in this context means? There was a civilized process that determined that few (only few) of the revisions didn’t meet academic standards of proof. If you want to be “grim” or “determined” or both over it, be my guest.

>>By harping on politics as being the driving agenda of HEF and VF, and expending much verbiage on "exposing" their "hindutva" affiliations, Professors Thapar and Witzel transparently reveal their own priorities to be political.

It’s precisely this type of fallacious reasoning that warrants close scrutiny of all Chaddi enthusiasms. According to such logic, the only way to insure that one’s own priorities aren’t political is to be either blind or silent.

>>If it were not so, their article would have focused more upon the specifics of those textbooks, and less on character assassination of the opposition.

Especially in contrast to the high minded edifying arguments of the opposition that include: “Slurs such as "Nazi", "Hitler", "Racist", "Marxist", "Communist", "Hindu hater", "Race Traitor", "Christian missionary" and "Creationist"…” and “death threats”?

>>…It seems only we Hindus need external help to fathom our own faith and culture, and to tell us who we really are.

No. But when a subset of self-selected Hindus wants to make authoritative pronouncements on historical facts for the public domain, “external help” will come with or without your consent when they are shorn of any academic standards of proof.

>>This is not a video game, where a participant can walk off with a higher score and gloat about how many "hindutva" phantoms he slew. These are our kids, and this is our culture. We will not vanish at the flick of a switch.

Thanks for the clarification but there wasn’t much confusion whether this was a video game.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
104
Rajiv writes:

>>I am a straight shooter. I go for the truth, no matter whom it helps or hurts. I don't believe in empathy for those who don't deserve it. When have any Muslims shown respect for the self-determination of minorities? Theirs is the most despotic political culture on earth. They are the LAST to show empathy for anypone outside tjheir club. To me, as Dalit, Islam and caste Hinduism have striking similarities. Each is ruthlessly exclusivist: NOTHING for those who don't belong....Arabs are the Brahmins of Islam.

I think you are a straight shooter. Otherwise, I would be giving you the back of my hand. However, straight shots aren’t depended only on a straight shooter; you also need a straight gun barrel. I can promise you that there are plenty of “undeserving” among the Dalits. Caste Hindus will argue that Dalit right of self-determination should depend on their personal assessment of whether they “deserve it or not.” Therefore, you are on treacherous grounds.

Muslim-majority countries are hardly the paragons of protectors of minority rights. But your sense of fairness and justice shouldn’t be contingent on their shortcomings; otherwise, they determine your morality. If you advocate punishing Palestinians, as a group, for the sins of Arabs in general, then that is your morally dubious privilege. However, the bulwark of individual liberty is clear and universal principles. Not only will you be on solid ground, as a practical matter, those principles are very effective clubs to bash in chauvinistic skulls be they Hindu, Muslim or Christian. Unless, of course, you want get into a urination contest with caste Hindus on whether Dalits, as individuals or a group, “deserve” self-determination.

>>Israel may overdo it a bit sometimes - besieged as it is. But it is an infinitely more liberal society than any Arab one, and the Arabs could have come to terms with it long ago. Who has empathy for the Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs who lost far more blood and property in the Partition than the Palestinians ever did?

I want Israel to be safe and secure. However, it is one interest among many for the U.S. Whether Arabs come to terms with Israel or not, it will not change the fact that Israel is the big dog in the Middle East with no existential threat. However, I don’t want my tax dollars to finance Palestinian oppression and destitution. Adding insult to injury, it goes against U.S. interests to enlarge its political influence and moral authority. Being blind an injustice that is right in front of your eyes that you can control on a tendentious claim that another injustice which you have no control went uncorrected smacks of moral obtuseness generally associated with the Chaddis.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
105
SC writes:

>> Romila Thapar is symbolic of the disease called the Indian left. These bastards usurped History departments in India( with much help from their political bosses), made sure that nonleftist views on Indian History were stifled, and generally ran roughshod with lots of power and little accountability.

Should there be a rim shot here?

>>Add to this stew, white supremacists, eurocentrics and other willing Indian lick spittle, we get a anti-hindu hate factory that has published and disseminated hatred against Hindus unchallenged for decades. They have systematically villified, slandered, spread falsehoods about the Hindu peoples.

I want soft sad violin music here to set the mood. I want lots and lots of tissues…..for the saraswati river bed of tears.

>>Romila Thapar talks about "TRUTH". Don't believe her. There is no such thing in History.

That non-existent thing just bit you in the ass. It’s all a Maya. You are not really missing a chuck of it.

>>Hindus need to recognize that History is a war of memes (information). It is about controlling the manufacture and distribution of information. Unless we found our own Historical research, scholars and Unversity departments, we will forever be at the mercy of white supremacists and old hags, begging for fair representation.

This is proof beyond a reasonable doubt that History and Chaddis don’t mix. That’s why beating them is as easy as…..taking candy from a baby…shooting fish in a barrel…running a hot knife through butter. With this mindset, they insure a long and peaceful reign over Chaddidom. But fret not…..start founding and funding (it will be that much less for the homicidal maniacs of RSS and VHP)…..just make sure your lawyers insert language to continue funding only on the stipulation that all “research” end up supporting your pre- cooked hallucinations….er…theories.

>>Perhaps this generation of Hindus will be more aggressive and smarter than the previous ones. If we can control Historical memes, then witzel , thapar etc, will be consigned to where they truly, truly, belong: the dustbin of mediocrity.

Naipaul was pusillanimous in his observation. The world of magic does not lurk just below the surface of their thinking; it marches in a bloody parade with loud bands and defecating elephants….all in broad day light and in full view.

>>For History is always about politics......

If so, stock up on vaseline….else you will be a fixture at your proctologist’s office.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
106
Ari Saja writes:

>> OUTLOOK is clearly India's most famous rag. Great Expose on the Witzel-Thapar frauds. It has been clearly shown here that they are both utterl liars, hate-mongers, bigots, and racists. The worst Communist-Nazi marriage since Stalin and Hitler kissed.

This is a treasure trove of comments that will come in handy in future disputes with the Chaddis. I am sure Witzel has slaves….er…graduate students to archive this material. It’s powerful ammunition to demonstrate the tenor and caliber of his opponents. If the Chaddis think their comments on this and other forums have no impact on future disputes, they are in for a hell of a surprise. Carry on boys. Continue with your conniptions.

>> One of their big achievements is that their Staff (a bunch of bigots worse than the KKK) "kicked the chair away" when Ms. Janeshwari Devi, the representative of the Vedic Foundation, was about to sit down at their Panel meeting.

Their pettiness…..with comical stories that won’t amount to a hill of beans, even if true.

>> The issue here is MIDDLE SCHOOL TEXTBOOKS. The criteria for what should be in there are very clearly specified: 1) Textbooks should convey to every child, PRIDE in his or her heritage 2) NO religion or culture shall be held up to ridicule.

Your inability to separate the forest from the trees…..fixating on hortatory guidelines by missing the big picture of the purpose of the academic enterprise: teaching the truth.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
107
Raveesh Varma writes:

>> Indian history was and still remains a very hard thing to grasp. It is too extensive (the British always thought India would be better a loose federation than a democracy) and so the tradition of continuous and relatively objective recording of history is quite simply absent. Maybe, the "extensiveness" alluded to above, rendered such a tradition impossible.

It neither warrants nor supports to make up theories wholesale in the absence of evidence.

>>To illustrate this point, the 1875 edition of the Encycopaedia Britannica mentions consumption of beef by the protoganists of the Ramayan. History should be unsparingly truthful.

Early Vedic immigrants to India were beef eaters.

>>But, in the case of Indian history, that element of truth MUST be applied to all the players, including those from outside the Indian subcontinent (whether Islamic or Christian, good and bad) clearly, and not merely to the Aryan/Dravidian strains of existence.

The Vedic immigrants brought their religion with them. Its amalgamation with native beliefs is the set of beliefs that outsiders named “Hinduism.” Therefore, most of it is from the “outside” as well.

>>Otherwise, this debate will produce nothing more than history which is basically one-sided and merely a "fable agreed upon". Also if I may add, to its advantage, Hinduism does not have as deeply embedded in its structure the practice of proselytism as do some of the monotheistic faiths.

Whether it was to “its advantage” or not, is debatable. However, it is reasonable to hypothesize that the absence of a requirement to proselytize (which forces it be communicable) contributed to Hinduism’s current incommunicability.

>>The respect of one's fellow-human may be all well-and-good and thoroughly nice to have, but if it will not translate to anything tangible, it is really quite meaningless.

I need another swig of scotch to understand this statement.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
108
Free Speech writes:

>> Karma - If you do something wrong it will come back and bite you. Where is the relationship of the caste and Karma?

Your Low Caste status is deserved because you did something wrong and its biting you now. Your High Caste status is deserved because of you did something right and its stroking you now.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
109
V Rajan writes:

>> The problem with Thapar is that she is more of a political propagandist than a historian. And that penchant for propaganda shows in this article. The proposed changes in textbooks need to be debated on their own merits.

They were debated on the merits and your side lost. End of story.

>>Let us use Thapar's own logic. The people opposing the changes proposed by California Hindus are not only corrupt crooks, but also Marxist fundamentalists. That they are corrupt is shown by Arun Shourie in his brilliant book, "Eminent Historians". Shourie shows how a cabal of "historians" have looted the Indian taxpayer by their control of state-funded institutions like ICHR.

Which begs the question, what does that have to do with the price of tea in china? Even if all Indian academics are corrupt and sell outs, then what explains those outside India since they don’t “loot the Indian taxpayer…control…state-funded institution…”

>>Similarly, the people opposing suggested changes in CA books are Marxist fundamenalists. Far from repudiating this genocidal ideology called Marxism, Thapar acknowledged that she is a follower of it.

Who is the target of her next genocide?

>>The Black Book of Communism documents how Marxism has murdered 80 million poeple world over. Only yesterday, Marxist fundamentlists -- whose ideology and Thapar';s ideology is the same -- have murdered 20 innocent villagers in Chattisgharh. Many Indians fear that the marxist agenda in India also is to effect massacres on a large scale to eliminate all opposition.

A little old white-haired lady reading and writing will not result in the death of a single soul.
...bunch of idiots carrying out trishuls will.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
110
Deepak writes:

>>It is rumoured Ms Thapar recently had plastic surgery where the surgeon took out fat out of her ar** and injected it in her lips so Ms Thapar is literally speaking through her ars*. My request to Outlook is not to give prominence to her by printing her articles as leftist fossil Buffoons like her are best left ignored. She comes out straight from a comic book.

The rumor is partially true. The surgeon did take some fat out from her read end. However, it was transplanted as brain tissue in ass munches like you.

I didn’t think Indian manhood had much more room to sink. Guess I was wrong.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
111
RSK, bucking up Chitra, writes:

>> You go girl. Good for you.

Just don’t go on the carpet. Use the sandbox.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
112
Sound bytes from Feb 27 meeting with California Board of education:

Jayant Point said we should make sure our children are not ashamed. He pointed
out the Muslims successfully removed any mention that a woman is required to
provide 4 witnesses before she is believed in an Islamic courtroom, and that the
textbooks don't mention that Christian scripture says a woman was made out of a
man's rib and provided only for his pleasure. "So why," he asked, "is Hinduism
singled out for such negative portrayal?"
Nikhil Malhotra
Nashville, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
113
Sound bytes from Feb 27 meeting with California Board of education:

Surta Suthe, a history professor at the University of California at Davis,
pointed out that there is hardly any mention in the texts of slavery which existed in other cultures.
Nikhil Malhotra
Nashville, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
114
Sound bytes from Feb 27 meeting with California Board of education:

Chetan, a student Monte Vista High School, said in her social studies class
teacher told them widows thew themselves in the funeral pyre of their husbands
and Hindus worshipped monkeys.

Bharka Patel, Monte Vista High School said that at her 2,100 student high
school, 300 are Hindus. On Deepavali she organized a support group to teach
about Hinduism. Only 15 students showed up, she said because Hindus are so
embarrassed by the education given in the textbooks. "There is more to
Hinduism," she said "than the caste system."

One student, of the first name Varijay, said a teacher told her class, "learning
about Hinduism doesn't really matter." Her classmate s also teased her, saying,
"A cow to you is steak to us." She said controversial issues should be studied
in high school perhaps, but not presented in a 6th grade introductory textbook.
Nikhil Malhotra
Nashville, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
115
Sound bytes from Feb 27 meeting with California Board of education:

Samjana Prabhakar, said, "My daughter came home in tears after her teacher told
her about sati, the ancient and rare practice of a widow throwing herself on her
husband's funeral pyre. 'You say my teacher is always right,' the daughter
cried, 'Will I have to go in the fire, too, if my husband dies? Then my children
will be orphans.' It took me many years and multiple trips to India to undo this
trauma. Students will remain in the dark unless the books are changed."
Nikhil Malhotra
Nashville, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
116
Sound bytes from Feb 27 meeting with California Board of education:

Kama Kishor said, "If you insist on writing that Hinduism is a religion which
promotes caste and other negatives, then since there are many reports of
Catholic child molesters, you must say Christianity is a religion of child
molesters. And since most terrorists are Muslim, you must say Islam is a
religion of terrorists."

Ramesh Rao, asked, "Why ignore all the great contributions of Hinduism? It is
the greatest pacifist religion in the history of the world and the fountainhead
of world spirituality. Why is it so negatively portrayed?" Ramesh also injected
some welcome humor in an otherwise somber meeting.
Nikhil Malhotra
Nashville, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
117
Sound bytes from Feb 27 meeting with California Board of education:

At the end of the public input section, several school children were allowed to
speak. They had taken the day off from school to attend. One, Kartikeya Katir of
Davis, California, said, "I am an sophomore at Da Vinci High School in Davis.
During my studies about Hinduism in school I learned that: Hinduism is a
man-made religion and that all other religions came from God; that my religion
condones discrimination against a certain segment of society in India throug h
the caste system; that my religion is based on myths and legends while all other
religions are based on holy texts and revealed knowledge; that God in Hinduism
is spelled with a small 'g' and God in other religions is spelled with a capital
"G." None of this is right, and I feel hurt that you allow this religious
discrimination against Hindu citizens of California to continue. I was taught
this is the land of the free and home of the brave. On behalf of all students
who believe these ideals, I encourage you to bravely
allow us to have our own voice, as you do the Christian and Jewish faiths, so
that we may also be free."
Nikhil Malhotra
Nashville, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
118
Thanks, Nikhil, for those excerpts from the meeting.
Wasted on idiots like "Old Mac" who stinks up the pages, but useful to other people. Yeah, Old Fartmer in Wonderville, it's really hard for us non-Linguists to see through your clever disguise, but that single-digit IQ can only come from an IER moderator.

OOO, Yeah, I am terrified to think of your Latrine Scholar-to-be grad students in the School of Sanskrit Illiteracy patiently scribbling down my comments, to use against me (and oh, yeah, thanks for the free membership in "chaddi" whatever that is). If they also write down your comments, that should fully satisfy the degree requirements to shovel sh1t in preparation for their careers as Latrine Scholars.

Ever occur to you that we may be archiving these posts to show what passes for "scholarship" in IER, Fartmer?
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
119
How to Sue Romilla Thappar in India? Her crime against ancient history should put her in jail for ever.
Maharishi
San Francisco, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
120
More eyewitness accounts from the farce in Sacramento. This about the performance of the Latrine Scholar Steven Alan Farmer, greatest authority on Creationism. See the description in "IRFFAN" on his awesome work on the Limb Transplants by Fr. Picolo in BCE 4003.

See
http://irffanclub.blogspot.com/


The eyewitness report:
".. he had a long face, he was shaking all the time (or shivering ? i am not sure). Its hard to say what the problem was".
..
"Actually, you have missed some interesting episodes of Steve Farmer. When he was standing on the podium, he was just moving his head, his whole body was moving like a pendulum, can't figure out which dance he was trying. He started his one min. speech and before he could complete second sentence his time was over. That day even 6th grade students gave eloquent presentations with confidence."

Sure sign of a junkie on drug withdrawal. Explains a lot of posts on the IndoEurasian Research Forum."

Old Fartmer of Wonder-junkie-ville, hope u r OK now. Must have been tough, eh, having to stay off the "fixes" through that long meeting?
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
121
Ari writes:

>>Ever occur to you that we may be archiving these posts to show what passes for "scholarship" in IER, Fartmer?

No, I was waiting for a dim bulb like you to connect those subtle dots for me.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
122
So Steve Farmer, a christian, bible thumper, and a prime craphead goes around making 10 year olds feel horrible about themselves, and his neo nazi, "linguist" advisor, who has spent all of 8 months in Nepal, which is his only connection to India and his only exposure to hinduism, are now "sifting evidence objectively", so that they can denigrate something they do not care to understand. These pieces of human garbage, who are NITS and OLD MAC on this forum, think that their low-IQ sarcasm makes them cunning linguists who make their points by speaking poorly of other people's cultures, and yet when these sh1thead neo-nazis belonging to the sh1thole known as "harvard university" are paid in the same coin, they break into rashes and start abusing all and sundry. What a couple of turds. Steve and Michael, when you both do Romila Thapar tonight, think of the glory your achieve for your Fatherland and Fuhrer. Also, any good references for where you nazis get your hatred for India and Hinduism from. It would be most interesting. Take care, you scumbags, and make sure that you create all your american students in your own image as petty mental midgets pretending to be academics. Thooo! Personally, I would like to take a good long cr@p on Romila Thapar's dead carcass whenever she decides to relive all of us of her worthless existence.

Silva Raoul
Palau, Palau
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
123
By writing this article, Romila Thapar has just proven her impotent skills on Indian history and Hinduism.

Not a single edit that were proposed by Hindus was countered or even argued. Moreover, ad hominem comments were used to make a point.

So much for a well respected historian? I have lost faith in you.

The FOSA (friends of south asia, SA west i.e.) are shifting gears one after another in a desparte attempt to halt this whole thing. First it was "dalit issue" and now it is "age of earth". Whats next?

FOSA buri tarah FASA.
Harry Damon
Chicago, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
124
It is quite touching to read some of the sound bytes posted by Nikhil. It would be very overwhelming for the kids to see their tradition/culture portrayed very negatively or even being ridiculed.

At the very least, Hindus need to accept that we don't have a case based on evidence that is acceptable in academic circles. So, if many think it is worthwhile, why not invest time and resources in making a provable case?

regards
prakash
Sydney, Australia
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
125
Old Jerk writes: "They were debated on the merits and your side lost. End of story."

Nothing was debated on merits, buffoon.Just politics.

If things were debated on merit, it would have been pointed out that it is biologically impossible to conceive being a virgin, and that historians believe that Jesus was born after Mary rolled in the hay with Roman soldier(s). And school students would have been encouraged to develop a scientific spirit by discarding cock-and-mary ... err... cock-and-bull stories like Immaculate Deception.

Was that done? No. The story on Chrsitianity in CA books does not tell at all that Virgin Birth is neither historically nor scientifically accurate.

It does not tell either that Chrstians treated slaves like dirt, that they treated women like dirt. Here, for example:


http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible7.htm


Why are these facts about Chrsitianity not figuring in Calif books but those that Marxist lunatics and Christian holy rollers claim to be 'facts' about Hinduism are? The answer is simple: throughout history, dominant power groups dictate the representation of the weaker people. There is other 'logic' behind this. Till very recently, the reprentation of native Indians in American history books used to be as a dark, evil people who almost invited their decimation.

Rajesh S
San Francisco, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
126
OLD MAC,

>

“Civilized?” Such as your comments here?

>

Well, I did not use any of that language, so what accounts for your taking that crass and despicable swipe at me? What standards of debate are you following?

>

But who decides that this external help for “self-selected” Hindus should be limited to a transparently prejudiced self-appointed triumvirate? You?

If you would stop snarling long enough to read what I wrote, you might find I suggested we subject these texts to more academic scrutiny, not less. I did concede that there were problems with some of the edits -- but there were a great deal more that were unarguably required (as you yourself seem to agree) that would have NOT been addressed had we not gone through this process. Your warriors for truth and academic standards seem to have been quite happy to be perfectly detached about what passes for education about India in schools – until now! I’d be the happiest person if the texts DID include a great deal more depth than they do now, of facts about ancient India that have passed “academic standards of proof.”

>

Please read the following excerpt from my original post for meaning …” Well, for starters we work like hell with our kids at home, and open our veins to pay for supplemental instruction elsewhere.”

>

Thanks. I’m sure it would also help if I were speaking out to people OF sense and basic civility. Which is why I am done here.
Chitra Raman
Grosse Pointe, USA
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
127
Okay, let's try that again.

Old Mac,

“There was a civilized process that determined that few (only few) of the revisions didn’t meet academic standards of proof. “

“Civilized?” Such as your comments here?

“ Especially in contrast to the high minded edifying arguments of the opposition that include: “Slurs such as "Nazi", "Hitler", "Racist", "Marxist", "Communist", "Hindu hater", "Race Traitor", "Christian missionary" and "Creationist"…” and “death threats”?"

Well, I did not use any of that language, so what accounts for your taking that despicable swipe at me? What standards of debate are you following?

"But when a subset of self-selected Hindus wants to make authoritative pronouncements on historical facts for the public domain, “external help” will come with or without your consent when they are shorn of any academic standards of proof."

But who decides that this external help for “self-selected” Hindus should be limited to a prejudiced self-appointed triumvirate? You?If you would stop snarling long enough to read what I wrote, you might find I suggested we subject these texts to more academic scrutiny, not less. I did concede that there were problems with some of the edits -- but there were a great deal more that were unarguably required and would have NOT been addressed had we not gone through this process. Your warriors for truth and academic standards seem to have been quite happy to be perfectly detached about what passes for education about India in schools – until now! I’d be the happiest person if the texts DID include a great deal more depth than they do now, of facts about ancient India that have passed “academic standards of proof.”

“Take the lead in educating your children instead of outsourcing it“

Please read the following excerpt from my original post for meaning …” Well, for starters we work like hell with our kids at home, and open our veins to pay for supplemental instruction elsewhere.”

"what you speak out better make sense if your concerns are to be considered seriously.”

Thanks. I’m sure it would also help if I were speaking out to people OF sense. Which is why I am done here.
Chitra Raman
Grosse Pointe, USA
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
128
Vikas,

While I agree with your post, the discussion has been about having text books that make children proud of their respective cultures. What I have been saying is that this should apply to both Hindu chilren in the United States and Muslim children in India.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
129
one more bullshit from hindu haters. & some section of indian english & electronic midea is running with so much islamobpbhia that even they peciture paki terrorists are very good human than any common hindu. B'cuz ind is ruled by traitors called UPA. Ind biased media have no place to highlight human right violation happening to minority hindus in pak, Bangla & JK. Nobody talks the brutal killing & ethnic cleasing the kashmir pundits that too in the presnec of ind army whuich is worst than the godra riots or babri masjid demolition. PPl say one mosque demoliation is a national shame, & many Indians do not aware theat 125 temples have been demolished by muslims thugs in JK Is is not a national shame.
Congres/commies & indian media rewind & replay the tape of guj riots b'cuz hindus have retaliated back for these muslim goondas who burnt 58 innocent hindus. Most communal riots happend in India during congress rule, it started by muslim mobs after so called friday prayers. In mejority cases victims were hindus and culprtis were muslims. But not a single case has blown up by indian media as they are doing for godra riot.hindus have been killed everyday in JK & now in UP,but it hardly makes any news. 4 boys killed in kashmir by indian security & there was huge protest in Kashmir. Firday pryaers in most part of india is anti hindu/ anit india ( pro pakistani) sermons not a prayer.Ind PM was holding round table confernce at that time carried out 2 minute silence. muslim vote is more important than the hindu life in secular india. Congress govt wrong polocies, misrule making ind a colony for jk and article 370 which gives a special status & free finance toJK, is slap on every indian honest tax payer. After earthquake ind opened the border with POK and somany paki pigs are coming and settling in ind kashmir telling themself as kashmiries. kashmir muslims are most dishonest & disloyal ppl on the earth. They want everything from ind but never respect the ind rule / constituion. these muslims joined hands with pakis and asking for more autonomy, more power with self rule. unfortunately power hungry cong/commies in UPA delhi are dancing the tunes of mulla/muslims to grab the 20% muslim vote. the muslim thugs who are protesting aginst the Bush's visit, never raised their voice when paki terrorists attacked hindu temples, parliment, bomb blast in Delhi, killing of kutty or prof puri. When devil demon called pesd Musharaf came these muslim & commies were not protesting. He and His ISI sponsered terrorest are responsible for murder of many innocent ppl not only in Ind but all over the world.
if u r an hindu hater, u can do a good business & earn dollers & make headlines in Ind media. For so called pseudo secular ppl like roamli, barka dtta, kuldip nayar, MJ akber Udit raj, kanchan Ilaya (list is long) these shameless indians proclaim as NGOs, HRAs, minorty leaders, liberal hindus it has become a livlehood. communists are joined hands B'cuz of elections are due in West Bamgl & kerala state & they need a muslim vote. These thugs always blamed RSS/VHP Shivsent for all the woring / fault with muslim community. RSS is only org which work for hindus tried to elminate caste system, and unite hindus uder one umbrlla. Mullas/missionaries hates RSS, & sanghis are against the conversion. Congres/commies are support the conversion poor hindu dalits to create new vote bank called dalit muslim & dalit xians & UPA has never granted minority status or any reservation to dalit hindus or hindus who monority in JK, Northeren states.
Suman Bhat
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
130
i am ashmed but truth in india is being hindu, one has to face( every moment )descrimination, injustice under the tag of secularism & minoritsm either be it education, job or any social function. Disunity among different section/states among hindu community is misused by these anti hindu forces. If anybody speaks about hindu they become commnual, RSS hindutave force.
It is the fundamental right of Hindus to defend their religion just like any one else Hindu community in US should take this case to court against Romal gruoup IF MUSLIM, JEWIS & XIANS CAN DELETE THE NEGATIVE SIDE OF THEIR RESPECTIVE RELIGION AND RECOMMEND THE CHANGES HAVE BEEN ACCEPTED SCHOOL BORAD WHY NOT SAME RULE FOR HINDU RELIGION. HINDU COMMUNITY SHOULD FIGHT CASE AGAINST SHITS LIKE ROMALI
JAI HIND
Suman Bhat
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
131
Silly OLD Fuck pontificates:

"...just make sure your lawyers insert language to continue funding only on the stipulation that all “research” end up supporting your pre- cooked hallucinations….er…theories."

My Hallucinations are any day better than the asinine farts out of your mouth. I bet the congenital stupidity shows on your face. A man who believes that theories are about truth/objectivity should have his member castrated!! Stick to familiar turfs such as venereal diseases and quit overeaching for esoteric mysteries such as theories that are obviously beyond the pale of your primate brain...!!
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Betelguese, USA
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
132
Raoul writes:
"Personally, I would like to take a good long cr@p on Romila Thapar's dead carcass whenever she decides to relive all of us of her worthless existence..."

Naaassstyyy......
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Betelguese, USA
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
133
I think Romila Thapar is babbling like an incoherent fool turning a blind eye to happenings and looking at them objectively. I think she and her cohorts have lost total credibility in the historian world.
Amit Bhargava
Indore, India
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
134
Here is a very nice article on the origin of the Caste system.


http://www.kamakoti.org...dharma/part20/chap2.htm


There are many other chapters in the series which deal about other aspects of Hinduism.

I think when teaching children about a religion, we should confine to what is said in the basic scriptures and let the children learn what is practiced on their own. This way the children would be able to denounce any deviant behaviour.

Ghulam, with respect filling muslim children in India with pride for their religion, it is obnoxious if the history books taught them that Islamic doctrines are bad, but welcome if they taught them that a certain Mughal ruler razed temples.
Sriram
Chennai, India
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
135
I see some intemperate remarks. Truth is the best defence, abuse is not. Please publicize the facts about Romila Thapar and her clique of historians as recorded in Shourie's "Eminent Historians"; how this clique used state patronage doled out to them by freindly politicians, and their positions of power in institutions like ICHR, to line their pockets, to advance their careers, and to advance the party line. Long before the likes of Thapar sought to extend their spehere of influence by networking with likeminded 'acdemics' in the West, they first built influence within India, and that happened not becuase of Thapar's eminence, but at taxpayers' expense, on account of the fact htat Thapar & Co had godfathers in the government. Publicize the facts that these 'historians' voted their own books to be translated, that they voted communist party leaders' books to be translated, that they took money for projects never delivered, that they wrote signed articles for communist party organs, and that they wrote approving forewords to plagizrized doctoral theses.

Let facts speak for themselves.
V Rajan
Chennai (Madras), India
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
136
Sorry Old Mac. Spit all you want, I am not going to dignify your venom with a response.
V Rajan
Chennai (Madras), India
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
137
The irony is that when her "eminent" colleagues like M/s Karat & co are busy dissing US and everything to do with US our Lady is out "saving" US education system from the evil influence of the Hindutva groups.

I don't understand this eagerness on the part of these "eminent" people to demonify Hinduisim. All religons at the end of the day are based on faith and myth. So who is to decide what is the truth - the followers of the religon or hatred sprouting secular fundamentalists.
Navdeep Hans
Delhi, India
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
138
While you read Arun Shourie's Eminent Historians, you should also read Koenraad Elst (
http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/
)and Michel Danino. "The Invasion that never was" is an especially good work on the Aryan Invasion theory by the latter.
Sriram
Chennai, India
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
139
Small announcement to every body here.

Do not engage in any kind of logical debate or expect any common sense from this loony OLD MAC. He is a Christist Jesus freak. Favorite altar boy for his white christist pedophile masters. He has a mouth that is worth only to suck his christist masters dicks, nothing else. So when he opens his mouth here, after the gang bang session in his church, he will spew only their (s)cum err Jesus juice. Do not expect any intelligence from this creature.
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
140
hey srk, cool down you dirty pig. looks like old mac
put a iron rod up your fathers as*!! is that true?
nits
nashville, USA
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
141
I fully agree with Shriram, Deepak and RSK. Even I have notice Old Mac in number of his postings has deliberately made controversial and abusive postings against number of other members in this forum.

When RSK tried to expose the true colours of Old Mac, one of flunkies of Old Mac i.e.NITS has practically stooped to use of gutteral language against RSK. I would also strongly advice all members who write feedback in Outlook to ignore old loser farts like Old Mac and his sidekicks like NITS.
Reeta
London, United Kingdom
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
142
hindu fanaticism is a oxymoron these idiots practice. 90% of people in this forum are rabid hindus , and they have a problem if some nits, old macs and ghulam faruki's write sense. on this account, outlook should not take any action, or take action against these dirt bags. my abuse was in response to what SEK wrote.
nits
nashville, USA
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
143
>>The respect of one's fellow-human may be all well-and-good and thoroughly nice to have, but if it will not translate to anything tangible, it is really quite meaningless.

I need another swig of scotch to understand this statement.
OLD MAC
WONDERVILLE UNITED STATES

In the overall scheme of things how does it humanly matter what is included in these school-books or not? Hindus will still be considered heathens destined for an eternity in a fiery lake or some such thing. Pity these academicians will not come down from their ivory towers and fathom how much or little their research is worth in the real world. Self-recrimination/self-flagellation can be such fun in a moral Utopia! Unfortunately everything is relative in the human condition. As far as my beliefs are concerned, being a Hindu, if I have indeed placed my faith in a work of fiction, so be it. If not, good for me. That leaves the temporal/material aspect of my life... The respect of one's fellow-human may be all well-and-good and thoroughly nice to have, but if it will not translate to anything tangible, it is really quite meaningless.
Raveesh Varma
Grand Rapids, MI, USA
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
144
NUTS

OLD MAC surely put his dick in your ass when he took you along to one of his church gang bang pedophilia activities. I think you still have some Nazi Witzel’s cum in your mouth, which you are spewing here.
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
145
Rajan writes:
"I see some intemperate remarks. Truth is the best defence, abuse is not. Please publicize the facts about Romila Thapar and her clique of historians as recorded in Shourie's "Eminent Historians"; how this clique used state patronage doled out to them by freindly politicians, and their positions of power in institutions like ICHR, to line their pockets, to advance their careers, and to advance the party line. Long before the likes of Thapar sought to extend their spehere of influence by networking with likeminded 'acdemics' in the West, they first built influence within India, and that happened not becuase of Thapar's eminence, but at taxpayers' expense, on account of the fact htat Thapar & Co had godfathers in the government. Publicize the facts that these 'historians' voted their own books to be translated, that they voted communist party leaders' books to be translated, that they took money for projects never delivered, that they wrote signed articles for communist party organs, and that they wrote approving forewords to plagizrized doctoral theses."

Amen!!
Say this to that poor old fuck who prances about like a dog in heat wanting to hump everything he can lay his dick on to!! The son of a bitch has no understanding of theories or science, knows nothing about reason, thinks that half assed and lame one liners count for argument!!

OLD MAC is the ghost of an Indian man long dead and gone: An Indian that Can't think; can't make arguments of his own; can't be creative; can't fuck; The word is Imbecile!! I'm sure that when he is gone for good, there will be a lot of us willing do him the honor of pissing on his grave!!
SC
TN, USA
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
146
SC

OLD MAC is just another true christist, just like sullas, who thinks with his dick. No wonder they see dicks and phallus every where. Hell they even saw phallus in the four minars that stand on the four sides of some mosques. I wonder what they will think when they see a nuclear dome. I guess they will interpret that as representing their “G*D’s” dick, since there is nothing else bigger than that in that shape.
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
147
SC, RSK and other chaddis;

The rottenness of your language reflects aptly the rottenness of your minds and souls. Yours is a degraded cause and you know it. All hindus have to do to defend themselves from abuse is tell the truth. Period.
Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
148
"The rottenness of your language reflects aptly the rottenness of your minds and souls. Yours is a degraded cause and you know it. All hindus have to do to defend themselves from abuse is tell the truth. Period."

Rajiv Sandhu: I will ask you for your opinion when I deem it necessary, till then, shove it....

Besides, having seen your splendid calisthenics on show here, I don't think your language, soul and mind is qualitatively any better... pot calling kettle black and all....
SC
TN, USA
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
149
>> "All religons at the end of the day are based on faith and myth. So who is to decide what is the truth - the followers of the religon or hatred spouting secular fundamentalists?"

Navdeep, I liked that.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
150
RAJIV SANDHU

So far I have not responded to your post, even when you directed it at me. I am doing so only since you called my name.

First, fuck you. I don’t need your “enlightened” judgment. If I am being abusive and insulting, I am being so only to those who are happy to throw it at others in the first place, like you.

Second, before you pontificate, go back and read how vile you have been in some of your posts, including the one you just wrote.
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
151
SC:

What you sarcastically call "splendid calisthenics" is just demonstrating freedom of mind. I knock down and trample under ALL species of chaddis: the Hindu type, the Islamic type AND the Thaparite type.

Sometimes I used in intemperate language, true, but NEVER obscene abuse.
Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Mar 02, 2006 12:00 AM
152
RSK:

I don't use obscene abuse. Harsh criticism, yes.
So I will leave you to stew in the horrible juice of your degraded imprecations. I hereby resign the attempt to house train you.
Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
153
RAJIV SANDHU

Go and train OLD MAC first before you pontificate others.

And thanks but no thanks for your offer. I can take care of myself without any help from loonies like you.
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
154
Ghulam, Navdeep:

No, I cannot accept that since religions are all mythological anyway, their dupes are the only ones who can interpret them....As well say that only lunatics can understand madness.

All religions are an attack on human reason and therefore must be subjected to ruthless analysis from the viewpoint of reason....As Karl Marx said: "The criticism of religion is the basis of all cirticism." NOTHING in the world is more essential than the UNFETTERED exercise of criticism against religions. Thus the California Hindus will just have to put up with it if their degraded faith is displayed in all its gory ugliness in the California school texts. Ideally, the same shoud be inflicted on all other religions, too. But if their political clout prevents it,let Hinduism be the guinea pig for exposing the vilenesses of religions to school kids....If the Hindus have any guts (they hardly ever do) they can demand in the courts the same level of exposure of all the other religions. BUIT THEY CANNOT DEMAND A COVER UP OF HIND CRIMES AND VICES !!!!!
Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
155
RSK:

Old Mac is good guy and a witty one. I wish he would use that sharp pen of his to deflate the Islamic chaddis and the Thaparite ones as well as the Hindu species.
Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
156
>> "All religions are an attack on human reason and therefore must be subjected to ruthless analysis from the viewpoint of reason"

Rajive, religions can best reform themselves from within, as exemplified by Martin Luther, Vivekanand and the Vatican Council II. Islam has some built-in resistance to reform which will have to be addressed. Assaults from outside have only strengthened orthodoxy, including mullahism, the Jerry Falwells, the Pat Robertsons and the Togadias.

Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
157
RAJIV SANDHU

If you see OLD MAC as witty, good for you. But I don’t see it that way. He comes across as a christist bigot carrying waters for his white masters. So I can abuse him as I wish. I don’t need any advice how I should do that.

>>> The criticism of religion is the basis of all criticism

I agree with the basic point of being able criticize and debate. Same should be applied for any organized groups, whether religious or political, including Marx himself and all his loony slave commies and Marxists

Also he said that form his own experience with christist dogma, where there is no freedom of and from religion. But I don’t think he would have said that about eastern religions, where there are considerable space for criticism, debate and rejection of the religion itself.
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
158
In his reply Sandhu Writes:

'NOTHING in the world is more essential than the UNFETTERED exercise of criticism against religions'

Since you have such nice views on religion, I wanted to ask you why Sikhs in UK write their religion as Sikhs?

Guru Govind Singh wanted to distinguish an ordinary Hindu from a warrior hindu so gave his 'panj pyaras' 5 symbols so that people would know they are warrior hindus. So pray when did he start a new religion?

Secondly,are Sikhs now going to denounce their first 9 Gurus as they were all Hindu Khatris? Sikhs in UK also claim their ancestors were not Hindus. So who exactly were the ancestors of Sikhs?

Guru Gobind Singh had appointed Banda Bahadur, a hindu Brahmin, to carry on the war against Mughals. Is it true Sundari, wife of Guru Gobind betrayed Banda Bahadur to the Mughals?

BTW I hope you are fine as I believe sikh youths in Southall as routinely getting thrashed by Somalians in Southall.I hope you are doing something to defend the honour of Sikh youths in Southall by fighting against Somalians on the streets(after all we don't want the forum members to get an impression you just some unemployed paper tiger whose agression is just confined to the net and who spends his full time just writing postings on the net,do we?
Reeta
London, United Kingdom
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
159
Reeta;

i live among Sikhs and have a profound respect for them. I am a Hindu, if you need to know - a Dalit Hindu agnostic.

You are nothing but a cheap nobody who is out to spoil the good relations between Hindus and Sikhs. I am not intrested in your chaddi whining. Get lost, will you?
Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
160
I think this Thapar, Witzel kind of people are a dying species. Fierce guardians of truth! Poor academics are desperately trying to hang onto what they have been publishing for all their lives! If they don't keep fighting the people of Hindu dharma their life becomes a lie. Now, can they allow that to happen. So, their weak attempts to establish their version of the truth goes on. What these ignorants forget is the eternal philosophy of sanatana dharma is beyond their grasp. One of the greatest scientific minds of all time, Arwing Schroedinger, became an avid follower of Vedanta philosophy because of its scientific bent. The wave-partical duality, uncertainty principle of Heisenberg, Bohr's complimentarity principle have been inspired by the science that is hidden in the truths evolved and offered by the Hindu philosophy. It's a pity that these self-proclaimed celebrity historians (they pat each other's back, Witzel constantly does this to Thapar, so he can get her to fight his battles!)cannot talk more on those topics than this futile fight they are carrying on. So what, this California board rejected the rivisions requested by Hindus, Hinduism cannot be tarnished by such things. In fact, by presenting negative picture about a great civilization and a great philosophy, in the end, will breed more ignorance, more division, less respect for people of a different culture and an arrogance on the part of those who may think they are superior to Hindus on the basis of what they have learnt. Witzels and Thapars of the world are at best, the worst colonial British imitations. This British-construct called caste system is their bread winner. They survive in their academic worlds as long as they can keep caste system linked to hindu philosophy. But Dharma is bigger than the history they write based on the biased research they do. Well, Hindus cannot change them; they have spent enough time in that prejudiced world they call "objective history" and they are set in their ways. So, God help them.
Praveen Rai
Philly, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
161
NOTHING in the world is more essential than the UNFETTERED exercise of criticism against religions

Agree 100%, subject to guidelines: analyze, don't ridicule; criticize based on facts, don't run propaganda based on lies.
Narsing Gowd
Secunderabad, India
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
162
i live among Sikhs and have a profound respect for them.

Caste oppression among Sikhs is no less severe than among Hindus. How come this does not diminish your respect them?

I am not saying that it should. You are following a good policy in the case of Sikhs and Sikhism: a comprehensive, wholistic view of them taking both positives and negatives into consideration would argue for according respect to them. And ditto is the case for Hinduism.
Narsing Gowd
Secunderabad, India
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
163
GOWD:

"Analyse, don't ridicule" you say.

You must be joking ! Often RIDICULE is the best form of analysis....Think of Voltaire's attacks on the Catholic Church. His cry - way back in the 18th century was utterly uncompromising: "Ecrasez l'infame!" he sais: Wipe out the infamous thing !!!

That's how Westerners won their freedom, my caste Hindu lad ! Guts, sheer guts.

You don't have even a fraction of his guts and sense nearly 300 years later....Brrrrrr!!!
Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
164
You don't have even a fraction of his guts and sense nearly 300 years later....Brrrrrr!!!

Fine. Go ahead and ridicule Sikhs and Sikhism, gutsy feller.
Narsing Gowd
Secunderabad, India
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
165
Gowd:

Caste oppression among sikhs is no less severe than among Hindus, you say, yet this does not prevent me respecting them profoundly.

I don't accept caste oppression among Sikhs is so bad as among Hindus...I admit it does exist and has disturbed me.

You've got a point all the same.

I guess I admire the fact that Sikhs are, more than any people I know, packed with guts.

Also, I hugely admire their lack of self-pity, the way they pull themselves out of grievous setbacks by sheer hard work.

Look what happened after India's Partition. It devastated the Sikhs more than any other community. They lost hundreds of thousands dead and tens of thousands of women abducted. They lost the major part of their wealth in the vast landholdings they had in what became Pakistani Punjab.

Unlike the Palestinians, recipients of so much fashionable and hypcritical "solidarity" these days, the Sikhs did not sulk and rot in refugee camps or breed an insane "resistance" movement devoted to terrorising civilians. They put their losses behind them. They immediatele set about building new lives for themselves in India, in the UK, in the US, in Canada....And rapidly regained their properity. They had not a cent of aid from Arab brothers obsecenely rich with oil money. The Palestinians got huge funding, and their corrupt leaders stole like there was no tomorrow, including Yasser Arafat.

I like brave people with sane values.
Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
166
Mr Sandhu, the self-proclaimed agnostic(therefore who is: ‘naa teen main, naa teraa main’) in his replies to me writes:

‘You are nothing but a cheap nobody’

Yet the same Mr Sandhu in his earlier posts had written:
I quote him here ‘SC, RSK and other chaddis; The rottenness of your language reflects aptly the rottenness of your minds and souls’.

He further writes:

‘i live among Sikhs and have a profound respect for them’. He is the same man who was earlier ridiculing someone else in another article about his english but everyone please note the way he himself has written ‘i’.

Anyway this same Mr Sandhu had earlier written:

I wish he(he was referring to Old Mac) would use that sharp pen of his to deflate the Islamic chaddis and the Thaparite ones as well as the Hindu species.

Everyone please note just some minutes earlier the same man wrote ‘as well as the Hindu species’ i.e. earlier writes that Old Mac with his sharp pen should deflate ‘the hindu species’ but then writes to me ‘I live among sikhs and have profound respect for them’. The same Mr Sandhu had also earlier written ‘'NOTHING in the world is more essential than the UNFETTERED exercise of criticism against religions' gets cold feet while it comes to answering my questions.

This man is a fraud who does not practice what he preaches to others.

I rest my case.
Reeta
London, United Kingdom
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
167
Reeta:

It's good you decided to "rest your case". Nobody is likely to understand what it is.
Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
168
oh by the way,when talking about me,to quote him here he writes 'who is out to spoil the good relations between Hindus and Sikhs'.Yet the same man doesn't think for a second before he himself wants to 'spoil the good relations between Hindus and Muslims' nor does he care a fig when it comes to hurting the sentiments of both Hindus and Muslims.
Reeta
London, United Kingdom
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
169
Reeta:

If you were living in the UK in the 1930's I guess you would accuse those who criticised Nazism of wanting to spoil the "good relations" between the British and those nice Germans !
Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
170
Great that Fruki admits that Islam has inbuilt
re3sistance to change.

There are also laws against blasphemy, muslims
leaveing the fold, and there is extreme violence to change. The cartoon controversey has exhibited once again the basic intolerance
and inbuilt violence in muslims.

Furhermore the whole situation is bizarre since muslims themselves burn churches, have destroyed the Bamayian Budha statues despite international appeals, and are unmoved by the sights of their victims on TV, such as the murder of children in Beslan and hostages being beheaded along with recitation from the Koran.

Its absolutely naive to expect anything from muslims. Brain washed from childhood, threatened
by fear of hell and promises of heaven they are
rendered immune to reason or human feelings.

I agree that countries with large muslim minorities face difficult crises
and problems. Muslims for example in India will always have their own agendas, and have nothing to contribute to India.

During a 2 month stay in Delhi, I did not meet any muslims in social gatherings, in the clubs or read any mention of them in any positive way in papers, When muslims were mentioned it was
some in scary situations. Latest is the minister who is promising rewards for the murder of the carttonists.

Today on Danish TV we heard that 12 muslim men had been to a school enquireing about the daughter of one of the caroonists.

Now let us hear the usual defence from the members of the faith.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
171
come on Mr Sandhu, at least be logical and don't keep changing the goal post...

Your were earlier inciting Old Mac to abuse both Muslims and Hindus but when I asked you some questions about Sikhism you replied that I was trying to spoil relations between Hindus and Sikhs.You were the one accusing me of spoiling relations between Hindus and Sikhs when I had asked you questions earlier about Sikhism.

your last reply 'If you were living in the UK in the 1930's I guess you would accuse those who criticised Nazism of wanting to spoil the "good relations" between the British and those nice Germans'!therefore absolutely makes no sense.

The more you try to argue, the deeper hole you are digging for yourself now...I remember a passage from a poem called 'The village schoolmaster'.There was a passage in the poem which says'though vanquished he could argue still'. Give up Mr Sandhu because the more you try to defend yourself the more you will now invite ridicule from other members.

Being a Hindu Dalit if you have any past grievances(or deep rooted complexes) against other Hindus, I am sure they can be solved by peacefully talking with other Hindus. Washing dirty linen in public by abusing Hinduism at a drop of a hat(for any past injustices that you feel you had to endure because of being a Dalit) is hardly the way forward.
Reeta
London, United Kingdom
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
172
Good things can happen even in Denmark.


http://www.cphpost.dk/get/94278.html
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
173
So after 27 pages of reader comments, there is no one but Witzel, Farmer and Thapar to say that Witzel, Farmer and Thapar are anything other than liars (I am not repeating the less adulatory descriptions).

Way to go, Harvard Corporation and Kluge Foundation! These comments are almost as good as Witzel's Teaching Evaluations before he fixed them like any Harvard professor would do!

Witzel, I hope you have heard of the Japanese tradition of "Hara Kiri"?
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
174
>>> Good things can happen even in Denmark

Its not a surprise if these things happen in Denmark. It will be a surprise only if it happens in countries like India and S Arabia.
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
175
Dear Sudhin,we have enough of these Thapars in India but they have a leadt audiences,They are popular more outside india as thier vested interest serves then better.Whuike the Indians staying abroad or tthe NRI;s are more concerned and devoted to india than the people staying in the country.While the non residents love hier country more these resident indians like thapars are more residing non indians.They will go to any extent to trell half the truth and you kbnow telling half truth is worst than telling alie.Thats what our media does.everytime they reffer to gujarath riot to accuse the RSS they deliberately avoid mentioning Godhra.The indian media who have on thier payroll people like romila thapar do not have any credibility left as even when the media,people like thapars tried to paint Mr.Narendra Mody in black he came out in flying colours for the second time with the support of the people of gujarath who have an immense feeling that thier pride is being hurt by our secular savvy bandwagon.Hinduism has ove a thousand years faced the onslaughts of these thapars and has remained like the sun.These communist craps are forgetting thier days are numbered.
rajdeep
Bangalore, India
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
176
Vikas Ranjan writes:

>>The proof of the pudding er communicable or should it be communicative religions lies in seeing their impact on the recipients of the communication.

The proof is whether it is transmittable from one person to another with reasonable coherence and within reasonable time.

>>Christianity arrived in Latin America, Australia and the Newzealand and the communication overload was so strong that the entire populations receiving the communication also known as communion simply disappeared from the face of the earth.

Pardon me, if I don’t buy into the world famous Chaddi capability to assess cause and effect.

>>Thank God for Hinduism not being such a communicable disease.

If you want to equate it with a disease, that is your free speech right. But, like a typical Chaddi, you read lot more into EVERYTHING than warranted by the facts.

>>And yes my being a chaddi or your being a G String does not bring the aborigines back to life or does not alter the communiques also known as Papal Bulls.

You and Vinay Lal classmates at Bargain Basement School of Witticism?
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
177
Rajesh S writes:

>>>>"They were debated on the merits and your side lost. End of story."

>>Nothing was debated on merits, buffoon.Just politics.

What were the debates between Witzel and Bajpai before the subcommittee? Never mind. Whether its merits or politics….you lost either way…..get used to it.

>>If things were debated on merit, it would have been pointed out that it is biologically impossible to conceive being a virgin, and that historians believe that Jesus was born after Mary rolled in the hay with Roman soldier(s).

In a discussion about Hinduism?

>>And school students would have been encouraged to develop a scientific spirit by discarding cock-and-mary ... err... cock-and-bull stories like Immaculate Deception.

Does it pass for wit or argument at your local gay bathhouse in San Fran?
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
178
Chitra Raman writes:

>>“Civilized?” Such as your comments here?

Such as the process of hearing both sides and deciding on the revisions. If your mind lacks the discipline to stay on point or follow a simple train of thought, you have a lot more to be “grim” and “determined” about than bogus revisions.

>>>>"But when a subset of self-selected Hindus wants to make authoritative pronouncements on historical facts for the public domain, “external help” will come with or without your consent when they are shorn of any academic standards of proof."

>>But who decides that this external help for “self-selected” Hindus should be limited to a prejudiced self-appointed triumvirate? You?

Self-initiative, demonstrated respect for the truth and Curriculum Vitaes.

>>If you would stop snarling long enough to read what I wrote, you might find I suggested we subject these texts to more academic scrutiny, not less.

If that is your euphemism for watered down academic standards of proof it won't wash.

>>I did concede that there were problems with some of the edits -- but there were a great deal more that were unarguably required and would have NOT been addressed had we not gone through this process.

The factual errors everyone agreed were not disputed. They were never the subject of the brawl.

>>Your warriors for truth and academic standards seem to have been quite happy to be perfectly detached about what passes for education about India in schools – until now! I’d be the happiest person if the texts DID include a great deal more depth than they do now, of facts about ancient India that have passed “academic standards of proof.”

As long as you keep in mind the absorptive capacity of Sixth Graders.

>>>>"what you speak out better make sense if your concerns are to be considered seriously.”

>>Thanks. I’m sure it would also help if I were speaking out to people OF sense. Which is why I am done here.

Too bad. You have the potential to positively contribute to the discussion, whether I agree with you or not. But that requires you to get a thicker skin.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
179
Prakash writes:

>>It is quite touching to read some of the sound bytes posted by Nikhil. It would be very overwhelming for the kids to see their tradition/culture portrayed very negatively or even being ridiculed.

It was an attempt at cheap emotionalism by exploiting children which had zero relevance to the substantive issues.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
180
V Rajan writes:

>>'Spit all you want Old Mac, I am not going to dignify your venom with a response'.

There are lesser honorable ways to wave the surrender flag.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
181
Cool!

This discussion reminds me of sitting in one of Witzel's Vedic Sanskrit classes. You know, the one where, on Feb.10, seven "Rating" messages appeared miraculously at the site "Rate-a-Prof" with identical sycophantic writing styles clearly stamped "Steven Alan Farmer". Minutes before Professor Witzel, equally coincidentally, happened to check the same website - to his great delight, and accepted without question, he being a star linguist and experienced professor and all.

This is JUST like Witzel's class at Harvard. There's "Old Mac" over there, spitting on the floor and declaring from time to time that he's interested in "academic Screw-tinny", there's NitWits over there farting loudly, there's Sandhu chattering away to himself, and then there are these serious-looking types like Chitra who think this is actually a university classroom, not a zoo.

And of course there's Witzel droning on in a mixture of Sanskrit, Latin and German, mostly about how great his 8 books are, according to all 3 Indologists who are the only people to have tried to read them. And how bad Hindutva is.

And there's a picture of a Baboon posted prominently on the right side of the board, and Witzel referring to her as "India's Most Famous Historian".

NOW I remember. This is what the Harvard Crimson reported in 1995, when the students went on strike in the department and stuffed Witzel's course notes down the Faculty Latrine, stopping it up, and forcing Witzel and his cohorts to walk all the way to the School of Divinity to "go".
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
182
Raveesh Varma

>>In the overall scheme of things how does it humanly matter what is included in these school-books or not?

Not much.

>>Hindus will still be considered heathens destined for an eternity in a fiery lake or some such thing. Pity these academicians will not come down from their ivory towers and fathom how much or little their research is worth in the real world.

It was in the real world that their scholarship won the textbook
controversy.

>>Self-recrimination/self-flag
ellation can be such fun in a moral Utopia! Unfortunately everything is relative in the human condition.

If so, unfortunately for you, the “everything is relative” philosophy is just another subjective choice with no intellectual or moral weight.

>>As far as my beliefs are concerned, being a Hindu, if I have indeed placed my faith in a work of fiction, so be it. If not, good for me. That leaves the temporal/material aspect of my life... The respect of one's fellow-human may be all well-and-good and thoroughly nice to have, but if it will not translate to anything tangible, it is really quite meaningless.

Perfect testimony to support my earlier contention…this laziness, masquerading as philosophical blather, obviates any serious attempt to seek out meaningful relationships with other humans. Next time, when these fortune cookie philosophers complain about lack of social cohesion, I hope to kick them in the groin with my steel tipped boots.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
183
OLD MAC writes in favor of Professor Witzel, Buffoon Thapar and all their 40 thieves and 7 dwarfs of Prominent Academia:

"kick them in the groin with my steel tipped boots."

Oh, yes, I can see that OLD MAC is one for

"any serious attempt to seek out meaningful relationships with other humans."

Also, OLD MAC, sorry to wake you, but no one has "WON" any controversy, any more than Witzel's Fuehrer Adolf "won" WW2.

Witzel and Bersin and Farmer and the communists and their cronies on the California Board have shown themselves to be a corrupt bunch of idiots, but they haven't "won" anything other than a good prospect of a jail term. But you knew that already, since you are one of them.

Tolerance of the crap being dished out in the name of "lessons" on Hinduism is at an end. And Witzel and the 40 Thieves + 7 Dwarfs can congratulate themselves, because it was their idiot letter that triggered the awakening of desis to the abuse being taught.

If they had shut up, the textbooks would have been marginally improved, but no one would have known or cared that the whole Indology mob is a bunch of racist bigoted idiots. Now the whole world knows. Wow! What " victory" for them!

5 years from now, they can check "GOOGLE" and find what people are saying about them. :-) :-) :-)
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
184
SC writes:

>>Say this to that poor old fuck who prances about like a dog in heat wanting to hump everything he can lay his dick on to!!

so you were faking it? I am shocked...the moaning sounded so genuine!!!

>>The son of a bitch has no understanding of theories or science, knows nothing about reason, thinks that half assed and lame one liners count for argument!!

Out of mercy, I stuck with one-liners. Two-liners would landed you in the pysch ward.

>>OLD MAC is the ghost of an Indian man long dead and gone:

Ghosts are good at haunting, no?

>>An Indian that Can't think; can't make arguments of his own; can't be creative; can't fuck;

That means I must be kicking a lot of can't(s).

>>The word is Imbecile!!

The word is Valium!!!

>>I'm sure that when he is gone for good, there will be a lot of us willing do him the honor of pissing on his grave!!

As Will Smith sang, "I don't want to see your lip react, because you don't want to see my hip react....wild wild mac....wild wild mac...welcome to the wild wild mac.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
185
Ari writes:

>>Tolerance of the crap being dished out in the name of "lessons" on Hinduism is at an end. And Witzel and the 40 Thieves + 7 Dwarfs can congratulate themselves, because it was their idiot letter that triggered the awakening of desis to the abuse being taught.

Wow, a bovine stampede to come? Let me alert National Geographic and tell them to bring their High Def Camera equipment.

>>If they had shut up, the textbooks would have been marginally improved, but no one would have known or cared that the whole Indology mob is a bunch of racist bigoted idiots. Now the whole world knows. Wow! What " victory" for them!

Wake up and smell the coffee.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
186
DEAR SIR,
1. For starters,the 'comments' made for more interesting reading than the Article itself!!
2. One doesn't expect anything better intellectually,from the likes of HERR WITZEL and 'distortionists' like Romila Thapar!!To cite just one example from MANY, of her 'anti-Hindu' bent of mind.Her textbook-'ANCIENT INDIA:A TEXTBOOK OF HISTORY FOR MIDDLE SCHOOLS'-NCERT,NEW DELHI-1987,states about the learning of the Vedas as :"Young boys stayed with the priests who taught them how to recite the hymns of the Vedas----It is said that the pupils repeating the lesson after the teacher sound like FROGS CROAKING BEFORE THE COMING OF THE RAINS."Co-incidentally,this book is also for 'SIXTH GRADERS'!!I have read elsewhere that this 'EMINENT HISTORIAN' has no knowledge of Sanskrit.If true,it only reflects the sorry state of Marxist intellectualism!!And yes.This 'EMINENT HISTORIAN' in an interview to the French daily Le Monde in 1993,predicted that India won't be able to stay together!!Its a different matter that UNESCO has thought it fit to place the 'CROAKING OF FROGS' on the WORLD HERITAGE MAP.India will also stay together despite the 'DOOMSDAY SYNDROMES' of the likes of the Romila Thapars!!
3. Herr Witzel belongs to that creed of Western Indologists who feverently believe that it is the WHITE MAN'S BURDEN to civilize the natives!!Hence the desperation to cling to 'outdated' theories like the AIT,possibly now modified to AMT and maybe at a later date to ARYAN TOURIST THEORY!!It doesn't matter to these worthies that science has debunked their theories.More recently BBC has also debunked the AIT!!
4. At a public interaction at the Harvard University on 3rd FEB 2006,Herr Witzel was specifically asked by a member of the audience,whether he ahd read the edits prposed by the Hindu organizations?He appears to have dodged the issue by stating that the matter was sub-judice.This is odd,considering the numerous press releases one has read with statements attributed to Herr Witzel!!He seems to forget the fact that we live in Thomas Fiedman's "ITS A FLAT WORLD"!!The NET sir!!
5. Arun Shourie in his excellent expose 'EMINENT HISTORIANS' has shown the true face of these so called intellectuals!!The sub-title is even more apt-'THEIR TECHNOLOGY-THEIR LINE-THEIR FRAUD'!!The latter hits the nail on the head in the CA TEXTBOOKS CONTROVERSY!!
6. KUDOS to SMT.CHITRA RAMAN for her wonderful feedback.I fully understand and empathise with her-a mother's feelings for the well being of her children.GOD BLESS you ma'm.

WARM REGARDS
H.Balakrishnan
Chennai
H.BALAKRISHNAN
CHENNAI, India
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
187
Ari writes:

>>OLD MAC writes in favor of Professor Witzel, Buffoon Thapar and all their 40 thieves and 7 dwarfs of Prominent Academia:

>>"kick them in the groin with my steel tipped boots."

>>Oh, yes, I can see that OLD MAC is one for

>>"any serious attempt to seek out meaningful relationships with other humans."

humans....you ain't it miss thing.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
188
Clearly, OLD MAC must be one of the IER's most distinguished Prominent Academics. You can tell by the intellectual excellence flowing from every post like sewage from the Latrine Scholars' brains:

"humans....you ain't it miss thing. "

IER Linguistics at their best. Witzel Standard. Enough to make Romilla enthralled.
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
189
I can see OLD MAC's desperation: Copy others' posts entirely and post them, like Steven Alan Farmer writing "his" thesis. That way, the page is filled with OLD MAC sewage and any intelligent post is hidden on previous pages.

Worked well enough to get Fartmer a PhD from Stamford Hygenic, so why not?
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
190
Ari writes:

>>hat way, the page is filled with OLD MAC sewage and any intelligent post is hidden on previous pages.

What's one more conspiracy?
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
191
>>If things were debated on merit, it would have been pointed out that it is biologically impossible to conceive being a virgin, and that historians believe that Jesus was born after Mary rolled in the hay with Roman soldier(s).

In a discussion about Hinduism?


If it were discussion only about Hinduism, and as to why Mary got knocked up without getting seeded by a Roman Soldier, and Christianity's treatment of women as chattel, and Chrsitianity's trade in slavery:


http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl.htm


was not on agenda, then it is all politics, buffoon, not a discussion about Hinduism. It is not for Hinduism alone to subjected to the test of "historical accuracy" as designed by its haters, right, clown? So that old rogue Witzel should have said: Christianity, being the majority religion in America, desreves to be subjected to greater scrutiny in textbooks than harrassing a tiny minority like Hindus. If he didn't say that, it was because of politics, Old Jerk.

If you asked your mom, "who's my dad mom?" and she told you, "immaculate conception beta, immaculate conception" and your chest swelled in pride, you got a problem. That can be traced right back to the junk you were taught about Christianity while in school. Get rid of politics, and American Chrsitian kids will grow up proudly in the knowledge that Mary wasn't fooling around with a lot of people after all.
Rajesh S
San Francisco, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
192
Are parents of children in the USA Hindutva ?? Thapar and Witzel evoke nothing less than amused laughter all over the world among self respecting India-Scholars. Mr. Witzel's contempt for India and Hindus is well known.

Latha
Chennai, India
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
193
90 percent are rabid hindus says nits.

In which category does he place himself.
I suggest he belongs to the same class as Old Mac.

I have suggested thet Old Mac visit Copenhagen
zoo where visiting chimps get free board and any amount of nuts. Nits why dont you join Old Mac.

The zoo guys might throw you some bananas too.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
194
Latha:

i agree that Romila Thapar is not a historian but a political prostitute.

However, children need the TRUTH about Hinduism's horrible past and present - not sugary lies like the stomach-turning stuff the Moses Family (Judaism and its two loving daughters Christianity and Islam ) ensure make up their pages in the US textbooks.

We Hindus should shine by showing Americans we are 1000 per cent better than everyone else - because we DARE TO TELL THE TRUTH
And then the US Hindus can take the Moses Family to court for imposing stalinist/hitlerian lies on US schoolchildren in the guise of truth about their "religions" (really communal hate ideologies, like caste Hinduism).

Now, how about that gutsy stand?
Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
195
>>If things were debated on merit, it would have been pointed out that it is biologically impossible to conceive being a virgin, and that historians believe that Jesus was born after Mary rolled in the hay with Roman soldier(s).

It is said that Kunthi In Mahabharatha was not impregnated by Pandu. But she gave birth to three sons. With whom all she migh have rolled on in hay?
Jake Kollarackal
Manchetser, United Kingdom
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
196
Farts like Old Mac are partners in crime with people from Friends of Asia Forum (this friend of Asian forum get funding from Anti-India and anti-Hindu organisations to continuously sprout poison against Hindus and India). All these people are happy as long as Indians don't protest and keeping taking crap from these ass***** e.g. Christian missionaries in India attempts in converting Hindus in India to Christianity by giving them economic incentives.

But twats like Old Mac a*** is on fire the moment educated, patriotic Hindus start questioning his abusive behaviour against Hinduism as well as his abusive postings in various forums against Hindus. Watch how this jerk Old Mac immediately springs to defence of any person the moment that person (e.g.Romila) starts writing crap about Hindus and India.

Oh BTW Old Mac, Indian Americans is the second richest ethnic-minority community in USA and it is just a matter of time before Hindus in USA come on a common platform(and become one of the most influential groups in USA) to expose the agenda of fanatic Christians like you. I challenge you to try keep stopping (with the help from your Friends of Asia forum) favourable changes regarding Hinduism in California text books in the years to come.
Reeta
London, United Kingdom
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
197
Reeta

Your taste for scatological abuse is scandalous. Cut it out, please, and behave like a human being.
there is no excuse for obscene abuse; harsh criticism is very OK, but not that.
Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
198
This joker Rajiv Sandhu is a man of no importance…

He advices me ‘there is no excuse for obscene abuse; harsh criticism is very OK, but not that.’ in his latest reply to me yet this same joker himself got abusive in one of his replies to me yesterday when he said ‘You are nothing but a cheap nobody. I am not interested in your chaddi whining. Get lost, will you?’

Yesterday this joker Rajiv Sandhu also in one of his posting was begging Old Mac to ‘use that sharp pen of his to deflate the Islamic chaddis and the Thaparite ones as well as the Hindu species.’ Yes, this same joker was openly inciting Old Mac to abuse both Hindus and Muslims.

He also is the same joker who yesterday wrote ‘'NOTHING in the world is more essential than the UNFETTERED exercise of criticism against religions'.

Yet this joker who is also a coward developed cold feet when I asked him questions about Sikhism. He dare not criticise or write anything against Sikhism for the fear of getting beaten up by Sikhs of Southall.

I also hope Rajiv 'joker' Sandhu you remember what I had written to you in my first post yesterday i.e. I hope you are doing something to defend the honour of Sikh youths in Southall by fighting against Somalians on the streets (after all we don't want the forum members to get an impression you just some unemployed paper tiger whose aggression is just confined to the net and who spends his full time just writing postings on the net, do we?

RSK, V.Rajan, Narsing, Rajdeep and all other forum members, please also check this jokers classic comments on an article ‘Beyond the hyphen’ by G. Parthasarath. As I said this man is a joker only good for an occasional laugh and not someone to be taken seriously.
Reeta
London, United Kingdom
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
199
reeta:

I urge you to uphold the honour of your fellow Muslims by trying to behave like a human being. You Muslims know no way to answer me; so you resort to scatological abuse and attempt to pit me against Sikhs, whom I respect. I am ready to criticise religions if there is anything bad in them; but also to respect what might be good in them. Sikhism is pretty good, for a religion.
Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
200
This Rajiv 'joker' Sandhu now appears disoriented and confused in his replies, I suspect he has totally lost his marbles... he is now calling a me who is a Hindu girl, a Muslim.What next Rajiv 'joker' Sandhu? You would now in your reply start calling me a Christian,then a Jew... you are indeed a very pitiable creature..If you want to make a total spectacle of yourself in front of the entire world, who am I to stop you? Go ahead, make my day...
Reeta
London, United Kingdom
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
201
>>> No baptism, no poonal, no circumcision for under 18's

Very good point, I support it. But can anyone implement it. The primary strategy used by Christists and Mullahs is “catch them young”. Look at the stupid Naheed’s proposal. “ban them”. If anything that should be banned in this 21st century then it is the barbaric 2000 year old bible and equally vile 7th century Quran.
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
202
Oh by the way,in your reply you write 'I am ready to criticise religions if there is anything bad in them' so by your strange,twisted logic you only find bad things in Hinduism and Islam so not only critise these religions but urge other like Bad Mac to criticise them? Could your not finding anything bad in any other religions, except Hinduism and Islam, have anything to do with your staying in Southall so you have to watch your backside if you say anything bad about any other religions except Hinduism and Islam. Right Rajiv 'joker' Sandhu?
Reeta
London, United Kingdom
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
203
Reeta:

Address your messages in future to your fellow illiterates.
Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
204
>>As far as my beliefs are concerned, being a Hindu, if I have indeed placed my faith in a work of fiction, so be it. If not, good for me. That leaves the temporal/material aspect of my life... The respect of one's fellow-human may be all well-and-good and thoroughly nice to have, but if it will not translate to anything tangible, it is really quite meaningless.

Perfect testimony to support my earlier contention…this laziness, masquerading as philosophical blather, obviates any serious attempt to seek out meaningful relationships with other humans. Next time, when these fortune cookie philosophers complain about lack of social cohesion, I hope to kick them in the groin with my steel tipped boots.

And pray who is complaining about the lack of social cohesion? I daresay that would be an exercise in futility.
Raveesh Varma
Grand Rapids, MI, USA
Mar 03, 2006 12:00 AM
205
Old Mac,
Your allusion to steel-toed boots notwithstanding, I am assuming you have read the past 33 pages of debate carefully. I don't think you are any closer to convincing your opponents or vice versa.
Personally, I believe in the Aryan Invasion Theory, as it was taught to me in school in India. But at the same time, until have studied the matter further, cannnot accept that everything that Ms. Thapar and Prof. Witzel have written is Holy Writ. I have read Ms. Thapar's work on the Somnath Temple, and while the depth of her research on the subject is very impressive, but presently it is the also only work of its kind. All with time. Maybe others will corroborate or disprove her findings in the future.
However, most importantly, I see that I have taken to reacting to comments on the article rather than to the article itself. That is quite unfortunate, and I will henceforth refrain from doing so.
Raveesh Varma
Grand Rapids, MI, USA
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
206
Ari:
>>Farmer a PhD from Stamford Hygenic, so why not?

Does Farmer have a PhD? Isn't he the guy who knowns one Indian realated word "Hindutva" and has never ever visited India but can completely understand Sanksrit when it's translated for him?


I thought his real skills lay in other areas. Say like being a some super cyber sherlock on hot trail of funding from those who oppose him:


http://irffanclub.blogs...exposes-massive_23.html


Or creating some cyber noise when Indian-Americans create website about India!!

http://irffanclub.blogs...arths-biggest-ever.html


or

ensuring his boss Witzel keeps getting good publicity

http://irffanclub.blogs...er-promises-praise.html


He did well here with his Creationist partner in crime Scott Bald-oaf(?) of that Christian Science Monitor. But failed miserably with Daniel Golden and a brown man ended up being a joke


http://irffanclub.blogs...de-straightens-out.html


Check his scholarly outrage when a black man's leg was stiched on to the white man.

http://irffanclub.blogs...xplains-why-church.html



Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
207
Sandhuism(compilation of all extremely stupid statements made by Sandhu)

Latest example of Sandhuism: All Hindus(except Sandhu himself)are illiterates.
Reeta
London, United Kingdom
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
208
Sridhar:

Yes, I can see that IRFFAN has a tremendous admiration for Farmer. BTW, your confusion is understandable. At Stamford Hygenic, PhD does not mean "Doctor of Philosphy". Pls. GOOGLE "Stamford Hygenic" - don't misspell it.

Evidently, someone tried looking inside the "Thesis" submitted by Farmer "IN PARTIAL FULFILMENT OF THE REQUIREMENTS" for something at Stamford Hygenic. Left them wondering what ELSE Farmer had to do to fulfill the REST of the "Requirements" since the thesis was 390 pages filled with quotes from dead bigots, dirty limericks, bogus math theorems, etc.

Example" "The number 1 is Supreme and used to represent GAWD because all other numbers can be obtained from 1 by multiplication".

Hmmm! Think about that, the guy CLEARLY understands multiplication, doesn't he?
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
209
Ari,
>>Hmmm! Think about that, the guy CLEARLY understands multiplication, doesn't he?


It's a mystery. Last Monday I saw him at the CA SBE meet in Sacramento and the guy looked like a sick. Maybe he's overworked and stressed. He could barely say two sentences during his speech before buzzer went off. The chap was swinging from one end to another like a pendulum or maybe he was on some drugs. Was constantly rumamging through his backpack, not sure if he was looking for his shot or cellphone to call Witzel on other coast.

Raju Rajagopal who once wrote here was there at the meet two. Two were huddled often and seemed to be discussing "indiantruth" website. Rajagopal had his baseball cap on (indoors!) and seemed to always hangout around dark corners of the room like a shady character afraid of something.

Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
210
Rajiv, criticizing Reeta, writes:

>>Your taste for scatological abuse is scandalous. Cut it out, please, and behave like a human being. there is no excuse for obscene abuse; harsh criticism is very OK, but not that.

Where is your sense of chivalry? Remember we worship our women as goddesses on pedestals (so says the travel brochure)….even when it’s that time of the month. I hereby rename her as Reeka given her fart, crap, asshole fixation.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
211
Reeka writes:

>>Farts like Old Mac are partners in crime with people from Friends of Asia Forum (this friend of Asian forum get funding from Anti-India and anti-Hindu organisations to continuously sprout poison against Hindus and India). All these people are happy as long as Indians don't protest and keeping taking crap from these ass***** e.g. Christian missionaries in India attempts in converting Hindus in India to Christianity by giving them economic incentives.

Nobody is preventing a protest. But, if you think protests by themselves change untruths into truths then the flat-earth society would be protesting everyday ….trying to get sixth grade text books to say that the earth is flat.

>>But twats like Old Mac a*** is on fire the moment educated, patriotic Hindus start questioning his abusive behaviour against Hinduism as well as his abusive postings in various forums against Hindus…

Seems like your twat is on fire…Penicillin should clear it up. Crybabies, whiners and liars (various forums ?) don’t win public debates.

>>Oh BTW Old Mac, Indian Americans is the second richest ethnic-minority community in USA and it is just a matter of time before Hindus in USA come on a common platform(and become one of the most influential groups in USA) to expose the agenda of fanatic Christians like you. I challenge you to try keep stopping (with the help from your Friends of Asia forum) favourable changes regarding Hinduism in California text books in the years to come.

I am interested in truthful and untruthful changes….whether they are favorable or not…let the chips fall where they may. If you want to lick your wounds of defeat with more fantasies, ask your therapist. If you want to lick anything else, you are on your own.

As I paraphrased Will Smith before, “I don’t want to see your lip react, because you don’t want to see my hip react…”
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
212
Raveesh Varma writes:

>> Your allusion to steel-toed boots notwithstanding, I am assuming you have read the past 33 pages of debate carefully. I don't think you are any closer to convincing your opponents or vice versa.

Based on what?

>>Personally, I believe in the Aryan Invasion Theory, as it was taught to me in school in India. But at the same time, until have studied the matter further, cannnot accept that everything that Ms. Thapar and Prof. Witzel have written is Holy Writ.

I hope you believe in things for better reasons than merely being taught in school in India. The persuasive power comes not from their personalities but from their scholarship. I am the last person in the world to be smitten by a cult of personality.

>>I have read Ms. Thapar's work on the Somnath Temple, and while the depth of her research on the subject is very impressive, but presently it is the also only work of its kind. All with time. Maybe others will corroborate or disprove her findings in the future.

That is how scholarship works…..not by attempting to flex a non-existent political muscle to pass-off manifest untruths as in the California textbook controversy.

>>However, most importantly, I see that I have taken to reacting to comments on the article rather than to the article itself. That is quite unfortunate, and I will henceforth refrain from doing so.

The article raises a general issue of interest within a specific context. Whether one discusses the specific context or the general issue is up to the poster.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
213
Sridhar:

I wish you wouldn't cast aspersions on a great Lat(r)in(e) Scholar like Steven Alan Farmer, especially in the presence of such a perfect gentleman as Bishop Old Mac. He wasn't "sick". The symptoms are 400% conclusive. They prove that he was NOT on drugs. For the whole day.
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
214
Reeka writes:

>>This joker Rajiv Sandhu is a man of no importance…

I don’t think you can comment on his impotence…….or can you?

>>He advices me ‘there is no excuse for obscene abuse; harsh criticism is very OK, but not that.’ in his latest reply to me yet this same joker himself got abusive in one of his replies to me yesterday when he said ‘You are nothing but a cheap nobody. I am not interested in your chaddi whining. Get lost, will you?’

It’s a dismissal but not abuse….since there are no orifices or bodily waste products involved.

>>Yesterday this joker Rajiv Sandhu also in one of his posting was begging Old Mac to ‘use that sharp pen of his to deflate the Islamic chaddis and the Thaparite ones as well as the Hindu species.’ Yes, this same joker was openly inciting Old Mac to abuse both Hindus and Muslims.

He was openly wondering why I don’t share his point of view on Muslims, as a group, even though we see eye to eye on the Chaddis. That is neither begging nor inciting.

>>He also is the same joker who yesterday wrote ‘'NOTHING in the world is more essential than the UNFETTERED exercise of criticism against religions'.

You want to dispute that?

>>Yet this joker who is also a coward developed cold feet when I asked him questions about Sikhism. He dare not criticise or write anything against Sikhism for the fear of getting beaten up by Sikhs of Southall.

Ever consider the possibility that he finds nothing particular to criticize about?

>>I also hope Rajiv 'joker' Sandhu you remember what I had written to you in my first post yesterday i.e. I hope you are doing something to defend the honour of Sikh youths in Southall by fighting against Somalians on the streets (after all we don't want the forum members to get an impression you just some unemployed paper tiger whose aggression is just confined to the net and who spends his full time just writing postings on the net, do we?

The impression you should fret about is that of your big rear end wherever you sit.

>>RSK, V.Rajan, Narsing, Rajdeep and all other forum members, please also check this jokers classic comments on an article ‘Beyond the hyphen’ by G. Parthasarath. As I said this man is a joker only good for an occasional laugh and not someone to be taken seriously.

Too bad your writing lacks enough personality for even an occasional laugh.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
215
Rajiv, answering Reeka, writes:

>>I urge you to uphold the honour of your fellow Muslims by trying to behave like a human being. You Muslims know no way to answer me; so you resort to scatological abuse and attempt to pit me against Sikhs, whom I respect.

She’s just an incoherent chaddi…or am I being redundant?

>> I am ready to criticise religions if there is anything bad in them; but also to respect what might be good in them. Sikhism is pretty good, for a religion.

On a lighter side, if Sikhism is pretty good as a religion, how is it as a mattress?
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
216
Sudhin writes:

>>One is judged by one's company.

Your friends must be infested with fleas and ticks, then.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
217
Latha writes:

>>Are parents of children in the USA Hindutva?

Is there something impossible about that? NRI supporters of Hindutva aren’t imaginary people.

>>Thapar and Witzel evoke nothing less than amused laughter all over the world among self respecting India-Scholars.

Is it self-respecting or self-perceiving?

>>Mr. Witzel's contempt for India and Hindus is well known.

If true, you have a gift for the obvious.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
218
Any day now OLD MAC is going to post something meaningful. The law of Equal Probability of All Microbrains dictates it.
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
219
In the ensuing educational issue at California, Prof. Witzel and his list of 50 odd scholars from across the world have created and subscribed to generalized theory on relationships between people, organizations, political parties, history and events. Examples of this include a) misrepresenting people’s relationship with "Hindu" organizations (RSS, VHP) as display of the individuals "Hindutva" fundamentalism b) linking events such as Gujarat riots to any individual because he/she happens to be a "Hindu".

Upon applying this generalized theory, one could also arrive at similar absurd conclusions such as 1) all European Americans are linked to the holocaust involving Native Americans since the days of Christopher Columbus when the land was conquered,
2) all Germans are linked to the prosecution of Jews since Hitler’s days.

While citing the cleaning of links on other websites (HEF/WAVES) as a display of malpractice and hence unworthy to consult with the CDE, Prof. Witzel diverted the focus from an exact practice from his letter to the CDE. Dr. Palaniappan, one of the co-signatories of Witzel's letter to the CDE on November 8th,, 2005 (
http://www.people.fas.h...tzel/witzelletter.pdf),
was represented with two different signatures - "Ph.D, University of Pennsylvania" and as "Ph.D, Indology, TX" in another.

In either ways, Dr. Palaniappan is not an Indologist by qualification. He holds a doctorate from University of Pennsylvania in Transportation Engineering and doesn’t have any academic degree related to Indology other than through personal interests.

One can easily verify Dr. Palaniappan's qualification by inspecting his graduate school advisor Prof. Edward Morlok's website:

http://www.seas.upenn.e...rlokpage/graduates.html


His doctoral work reads (as of March 2nd, 2006): "Palaniappan Sudalaimuthu, "Profit-Maximizing Supply for a Scheduled Urban Transportation Carrier", Ph.D., December 1985 (Senior Planner, Dallas)".

We don’t know if Prof. Witzel is working to convert Palaniappan's background in Transportation Engineering to "Indology" to be consistent with his claim on the letter to the CDE. By applying Witzel's generalized theory, such a misrepresentation could fire back on the remaining scholars who belong to academic institutions of highest reputation across the world including Harvard, Berkeley, MIT, Yale.

We are sure that the other co-signatories themselves don’t support or condone such a misrepresentation of the fact as it will violate their academic and ethical standards. It is but surprising how all the co-signatories subscribed to this lie.

Romila Thapar and Prof. Michael Witzel may have strived hard in forming “The Academic Indology Advisory Council” (
http://www.indiantruth.org),
in an effort to represent the truth, but the representation of Dr. Palaniappan qualification as an Indologist is a complete deviation from truth.
Prabhu Bharathan
Phoenix, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
220
Dear Mr. Bharathan:

The funny thing is, when their own "brave graduate student" Arun B. Vajpayee summarized the positions taken by these forthy thieves and 7 dwarfs, and made it into a Petition to support Professor Witzel, this gang flat out refused to sign it.

So you HAVE to wonder what they use in lieu of brains. Big Macs? They really are solid meatheads, no question about that.

See that petition at


http://www.petitiononli.../Indology/petition.html


It IS clearly an accurate summary of what Witzel and gang have been saying all over the world, but I guess they don't like a mirror being held up to them?
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
221
Part III of III

The following paragraph is a synopsis of the connections between HEF/HAF and the Sangh Parivar. We will be glad to provide more detail.

Briefly, the HEF is a creation of the HSS (Hindu Swayamsevak Sangh), the U.S. arm of the RSS, and its board of advisors includes several senior
Hindutva leaders and ideologues. The HAF is a creation of the VHP of America. The VHP is the militant religious arm of the RSS. HAF's
president and founder, Mihir Meghani, is a former governing council member of the VHP of America. That their current interventions have nothing to do with minority rights should be obvious from the fact that Meghani's HAF and the HEF are avowed opponents of the rights of religious and ethnic minorities in India. As CSFH collective member Raja Swamy noted: "The same U.S.-based Sangh Parivar organizations and individuals who have spent the past four years 'defending' the
butchering of 2,000 men, women and children in Gujarat, have now come out in defense of the HEF and HAF."

Notes:
[1] Golwalkar had explicitly endorsed Hitler's campaign against the Jews in Germany by calling it a form of "race pride"" India should emulate. He lays bare his casteism in his praise of Manu as the "first and greatest lawgiver of the world [who] lays down in his code, directing all the peoples of the world to go to Hindusthan [sic] to learn their duties at the holy feet of 'eldest born' Brahmins of this land." A random selection of the ï'½wisdomï'½ found in the Manusmriti on caste is as follows:
* Serving Brahmins alone is recommended as the best innate activity of a Shudra; for whatever he does other than this bears no fruit for him
(123, Chapter X).
* They should give him (Shudra) the leftovers of their food, their old clothes, the spoiled parts of their grain, and their worn-out household
utensils" (125, Chapter X).
* A servant (Shudra) should not amass wealth, even if he has the ability, for a servant (Shudra) who has amassed wealth annoys priests"
(129, Chapter X).
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
222
Part II of III

Numerous scholars and academicsï'½including some of the most renowned and respected members of the faculty from the various campuses of the University of California systemï'½also testified and presented their views on why the Board must overturn the distortions introduced by the HEF/VF/HAF.

These testimonies should finally put to rest not only the notion that the HAF/HEF/VF represent all, or even a plurality of Hindus, but also that the Hindutva forces have any scholarly credibility. As Girish Agrawal, a member of the CSFH collective noted with amusement, "despite the couple of hundred people that the Sangh Parivar had bused and flown in from around the United States, they could not produce a single scholar to back their pseudo-history." Girish Agrawal also commended all
the commentators opposing the Hindutva changes for speaking forcefully and eloquently, and especially for staying calm in the face of the thuggish behavior of the HAF/HEF/VF members and supporters: "All in all, I think the HAF/HEF/VF showed their true colors today and it would be hard for them to live down their own boorish behavior and the exposure of their complete lack of concern for anything beyond their narrow agenda of hate."

Commenting on the textbook issue, CSFH collective member Ra Ravishankar said: "The Sangh's claim that its suggested edits are meant to enhance
the self-esteem of young children is first irresponsible, for how can children learn to recognize and act upon oppressive and discriminatory practices in the present if the past histories of these practices are erased and whitewashed? And second, it is a lie because the edits that the Sangh is fighting so hard to retain are not the ones their ideologues spout as examples in every forum. Most of those edits were
minor corrections that are not disputed by anybody. Clearly, the Sangh effort is an opportunistic one to use the relatively few and minor problems in content as a Trojan horse to bring in the supremacist political ideology of the Hindutva movement." CSFH applauds the California Department of Education for seeing through the HAF/HEF/VFï'½s faï'½ade and rejecting their attempts to mythologize history. The Board is
now fully aware that the HAF/HEF/VF are tied to virulently supremacist anti-minority agendas.

The CSFH has fought a protracted battle against the neo-fascist Hindutva movement in the United States since 2002, and we have a deep understanding of how the Hindutva movement operates globally. We are a small volunteer collective of academics and professionals who came
together in 2002 after the "Gujarat Pogrom" where more than two thousand Indian Muslims were killed by organized paramilitary mobs of the Hindutva movement in India (the RSS and the Sangh Parivar, as the family of RSS organizations are collectively known). We set for ourselves the
task of investigating and reporting the massive movement of funds from the U.S. to the various arms of the Hindutva movement in India - funds
which are used to support the Sangh's violent, anti-minority activities in India. The results of our investigation were published in a report
titled Foreign Exchange of Hate - IDRF and the American funding of Hindutva [2], and resulted in several major corporations, including Cisco Systems, revamping their charitable giving policies.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
223
Part I of III


SAN FRANCISCO: The Campaign to Stop Funding Hate (CSFH) applauds the successful mobilization of the South Asian community in response to the
Hindutva [Hindu supremacist] attempts to inject their sectarian political ideology into California school textbooks.

On Monday, February 27, 2006, people of diverse backgrounds, faiths and ethnicities testified at a public hearing before a committee of the California State Board of Education (SBE). The SBE held the hearing to consider proposed changes to the new history-social science textbooks for the 6th grade in public schools in California. Eight books, and the associated teachersï'½ guides and studentsï'½ workbooks, were put forward by different publishers last year, and released by the SBE for public review and comment. Several Hindutva groups inserted themselves into the review process by claiming to be representative of the diasporic South Asian community, and began pushing the SBE to accept sectarian, unscholarly edits. Leading the attack were the Hindu Education Foundation (HEF) and Vedic Foundation (VF), backed by the Hindu American Foundation (HAF), a Hindutva front posing as a 'human rights' organization. Outraged scholars and community members from California requested the SBE to stand firm and not cave in to sectarian pressures. The public hearing was organized to allow everyone to air their views

Even as the HAF, HEF and VF sought to erase Dalits from the ancient past and portray the caste system as a benign form of social classification instead of the brutal system of oppression and exploitation that it really is, the Sangh's view of caste was on full display at the public hearing ("Sangh" and "Sangh Parivar" refer to the family of Hindutva organizations that have been spawned by the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, the RSS, of India). While the worldwide Sangh Parivar is busy celebrating the birth centenary of M S Golwalkar -- the second supremo of the RSS, an admirer of Hitler and his genocide of Jews, and of Manu, the Hindu lawgiver who codified the oppressive caste system [1] -- every mention of caste found the Hindutva supporters squirming in their seats and exchanging unpleasant glances. Some of them, laboring under the illusion that they were whispering, spewed vitriol about the SBE "allowing all these chura-chamars to speak" (chura-chamar, literally scavenger-cobbler, is one of the derogatory terms commonly used by upper-caste Hindus to insult Dalits and lower castes). But the HAF/HEF/VF members weren't just fulminating in private, their arrogance and hate of Dalits and lower castes overrode the warnings to be cautious being whispered to them by the senior handlers that the RSS had sent along. Among the comments made by HAF/HEF/VF members is included this choice gem: "If Dalits are so oppressed in India, how did some of them come to America?" As testimonies from Dalits who have made California their home continued, Gaurang Desai of HSS, the U.S. analogue of the RSS, got very agitated and screamed at the Board members that he once cleaned his own toilet and did not feel oppressed, so Dalits who are forced in India to carry human waste on their heads cannot claim to be oppressed either!

The SBE heard testimonies from many individuals, from representatives of several groupsï'½including the Federation of Tamil Sangams of North America (FeTNA), Friends of South Asia (FOSA), and Coalition Against Communalism (CAC)ï'½and most importantly, from members of local Dalit communities. All of these people expressed their strong opposition to the brazen attempts by HAF, HEF and VF to infuse Hindutva ideology into school textbooks in California.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
224
This is what Witzel wrote in this letter:

"The names on this letter, which have all been gathered over the past 48 hours, represent a broad cross-section of the world's leading historians, religious scholars, archaelogists, philologists, and linguists conduction specialized research on ancient India."


http://www.people.fas.h...witzel/witzelletter.pdf


There was an "S. Palaniappan, University of Pennslyvania Ph.D." who signed the petition.

But the link that Bharathan gave is dead. So I can't confirm if there was another S. Palaniappan with a PH.D. in "indology" from Texas or if that is supposed to be the same person.

I am not sure if there is a misrepresentation issue here or if it's just an oversight. Either way, I figured I should get the ball rolling on it.



Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
225
Old Mac,
Do you have the weblink of the article you pasted? Thanks.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
226
Here you go kumar


http://stopfundinghate....nloads/sabrang_sacw.pdf


http://www.stopfundinghate.org

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Indo-Eurasian_research/messages/3124
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
227
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
228
Palaniappan's Engineering Qualification - not Indology / Linguistics / History:

Here is the correct link to Univ. of Pennsylvania
Prof. Edward Morlok's student, Sudalaimuthu, Palaniappan:


http://www.seas.upenn.e...rlokpage/graduates.html


If this link doesnt work, please do a search on univ. pennsylvania website for prof edward morlok's past students. Palaniappan currently works for Frito Lays in Plano, TX.

Here is an article by the same person on "frontline" magazine, Volume 20 - Issue 10, May 10 - 23, 2003


http://www.hinduonnet.c...s/20030523001308500.htm


Sorry if the last link got broken.
Prabhu Bharathan
Phoenix, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
229
OLD MAC has just served the old wine err Jesus juice in new bottle. All this charges have been thoroughly refuted and laughed off years ago. Here is some link, a life jacket if you will, so that you can help yourself to swim away from the deluge of sewage you are trawling in.


http://www.hvk.org/specialrepo/idrf/index.html


http://www.sulekha.com/blogs/blogdisplay.aspx?cid=4583#

http://www.indiacause.com/columns/OL_030302.htm

Further more here is the actual link of IDRF, if you want to know what they actually do.

www.idrf.org

Interestingly I never heard about IDRF before these loony commies attacked them. Then I read about them and ever since, from 2003, I have been donating $350.00 every year. These loony commies have done a good job of giving huge media coverage for a noble organization, that was relatively unheard of before, by their vicious attacks. Christist OLD MAC is just carrying on with the commies work, which the commies themselves have run away from three years ago. I hope OLD MAC gives IDRF the same kind of publicity those loonies gave three year ago.
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
230
>>> Stop funding…

OLD MAC has just served the old wine err Jesus juice in new bottle. All this charges have been thoroughly refuted and laughed off years ago. Here is some link, a life jacket if you will, so that you can help yourself to swim away from the deluge of sewage you are trawling in.


http://www.hvk.org/specialrepo/idrf/index.html


http://www.sulekha.com/blogs/blogdisplay.aspx?cid=4583#

http://www.indiacause.com/columns/OL_030302.htm

Further more here is the actual link of IDRF, if you want to know what they actually do.

www.idrf.org

Interestingly I never heard about IDRF before these loony commies attacked them. Then I read about them and ever since, from 2003, I have been donating $350.00 every year. These loony commies have done a good job of giving huge media coverage for a noble organization, that was relatively unheard of before, by their vicious attacks. Christist OLD MAC is just carrying on with the commies work, which the commies themselves have run away from three years ago. I hope OLD MAC gives IDRF the same kind of publicity those loonies gave three year ago.
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
231
>>> This is what Witzel wrote…

go here to read a detailed analysis of Nazi Witzel’s letter


http://www.vigilonline....s/Dossier_on_Witzel.pdf


http://www.india-forum.com/articles/83/1/California-Textbooks-Controversy%3A-Politicization-of-an-Academic-Issue-by-Hindu-Haters

http://www.india-forum.com/articles/89/1/Genesis-of-the-Hate-Filled-Michael-Witzel-Petition

http://www.india-forum.com/articles/91/1/Critical-Observations-on-the-Michael-Witzel-Petition
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
232
Another blog which explains how these Indologists think and work. It is hilarious as well.


http://irffanclub.blogspot.com/


This particular thread stands out as best.


http://irffanclub.blogs...de-straightens-out.html
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
233
Many people have expressed confusion and asked how there can be a connection between Harvard Professor Witzel, Nazi/ Aryan Nations/KKK terrorists, Indian Communist Party (Marxist), the Conversionists, the Khalistan terrorists, and the Pakistani ISI/ Al Qaeda terrorists.

Let me take a moment to thank OLD MAC for finally walking into the trap as all these hate-mongers eventually do, and posting the proof of how these are connected.

The common factor is their sheer hatred for the ideas of democracy, tolerance, freedom of worship, merit-based systems, magnified by their utter incompetence and failure as humansm and of course by their greed.

After the 9/11 attacks, they really all got together. See the connection laid out all nicely in the articles by Professor Komerath:

"Yesterday once more: FOIL Primer - Part 1"

http://www.indiacause.com/columns/OL_050414.htm


and
"Protestant Pedagogues Peeved at Protest Against Porn-Peddling"

"
http://www.indiacause.com/columns/OL_051204.htm


and
"Scholarship of Equine Posteriors – Har(vard)appa Style"


http://www.indiacause.com/columns/OL_051204.htm

*****************



That's that "CSFH" that OLD MAC now tom-toms: as dismal a bunch of losers as ever wasted oxygen on earth. Komerath as usual is seen to have understood the connection swiftly, but then understated the problem with the conservatism charaacteristic of his engineering background. The connection is not just TWO idiots who signed the Witzel Letter. The connection is now seen blatantly.

The congenital Communist liars Angana Cheaterji, Girlish Agarwal, Stalini Gera and Akhila Rahman, who authored the fraudulent "Sabran
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
234
Part II: OLD MAC EXPOSE.

Here is an excerpt from one of the articles I found, hyperlinked below. Shows you one of the connections between the Witzel Nazis and the Commies.

"Some excerpts from there:

" Some years ago, at least two of the signatories on Witzel’s “list of prominent academics” signed their own and their institutions’ names to another so-called “South Asia Faculty Letter”. They did so out of desperation to stop the exploding laughter and outrage against a “Comprehensive Report” generated by a gang of their Communist buddies – the Forum of Indian (or Inquilabi) Leftists. This report had attacked an Indian-American charity, making vile accusations of complicity in violence without a shred of evidence, and using blatant, ludicrous intellectual dishonesty. This provided a classic study on their modus operandi. When their political grandstanding positions were rendered untenable in the face of facts, logic and informed public opinion, they resorted to the cowardly “You Must Believe Us Because We Are Scholars” theme. Some of them are on record as saying that votes by the general public and especially mere Indians, are of no significance compared to votes by them – food for thought for people who teach children about the Constitution of the United States or of India.

The Report endorsed by these self-proclaimed Sanskrit Scholars, tried to con Americans by claiming that any organization with a Sanskrit / Hindi name including “Sangh” (organization) or “Parivar” (family) was a political “hate-mongering” organization. Thus they described the “Kushta Nivaran Sangh” (Leprosy Patient Relief Organization), the “Krishi Prayog Parivar” (Agricultural Practice Club – a team who passed tips on agriculture from the internet to poor farmers) and the Vatsalya (affection) Trust (a world-renowned orphanage) as Hindutva Hate-Mongering Organizations. They counted on us being ignorant and too lazy to check their ‘data’. As usually happens to con artists, they also declared the “Meeraj Medical Center” – a beneficiary of the same Charity, as a Hindu hate-mongering institution. This hospital is run by an affiliate of the Presbyterian Church of North America. The letter signed by the South Asia Faculty endorsing the report, came after we had clearly pointed to this blatant folly. As such, their endorsement was an inexcusable example of dishonesty. Witzel’s portrayal of these signatories as “world experts” under Harvard letterhead, speaks volumes on his own, and Harvard’s, ethical standards. "

"
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
235
PART III: OLD MAC EXPOSE

The congenital Communist liars Angana Cheaterji, Girlish Agarwal, Stalini Gera and Akhila Rahman, who authored the fraudulent "Sabrang/FOIL Report" that got laughed off the net, have now come out of their holes again. Only the UnaBomber fan Biji Matthew, a member of the banned international terrorist organization "CPI(Maoist)" hasn't come out with his "expertise" on Hinduism. Maybe he's too busy planning terrorist attacks in Puerto Rico where he has connections with the separatists there.

OLD MAC shows what he is, loud and clear as his other farts on this forum.


Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
236
The impression you should fret about is that of your big rear end wherever you sit.Go and tell this to your MOTHER and your daughter(if u have any)

Old Mac,If you are not an illigitimate Bas**** child why don't you come and try abusing me on my face in UK you pimp...It is easy for you and your creepy crawy friends to use gutteral,filthy,abusive language while talking about Hinduism and other members of this forum on the net

I have NEVER seen such a third rate animal like this Old Mac...you are a shameless ass****,Just not me, the swear,abusive words u are using against any member who disagrees with u is seen to be believed...if u are not a complete bas****,send me your address or phone number and I will call you on the phone or personally come and confront u in USA...

Or a coward bas***** like you can only get abusive on the net? I am challenging you to either send me your address and I will come to USA and personally confront you or you come and meet me in UK and try using such filthy abusive words that you use on the net in front of me...so u bloody coward, if u have guts,I even challenge you to an open public debate face to face either in UK or USA...

These fanatic Bas**** christians like Old Mac are happy as long as hindus listen to their crap but for people who challenge their views, these scums can stoop to an absolute gutteral level, their filthy language against everyone shows there backgrounds...so you ass****, if u have spine and guts come to UK and trying abusing me on my face and see what happens or I even challenge you to an open public denate

Enough is enough...put your money....if u have guts send me your postal address in your reply or let me know when u r coming to UK...if u have balls, come here and use such filthy language u use on the net in front of me and see what happens...fanatic christain punks can only have the guts to get abusive and your filthy,gutteral language on the net
Reeta
London, United Kingdom
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
237
Thapar, Witzel, FOSA etc etc seem agitated at the alleged distortion of Indian History due to the changes proposed in the text books on Hinduism.

This would imply one of the following:

a) All that is written in the text books on Islam, Christianity and other religions is accurate without any political slants
b) That Islam, Christianity are not part of Indian culture and hence they do not give a damn about what is written in the text books regarding these religions.

Would the eminent historians and Indologists please take a pick? I am desperate to know the answer.
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
238
The lies by Gera, Cheaterji, Vinay Lal, Biju Mathew, Ravishankar, Sabrang, FOIL, FOSA and all are neatly documented. Hey, graphs and tables for those who have trouble reading :)



http://www.geocities.co..._faq_meets_reality.html
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
239
Very good expose of creatures like OLD MAC and their cronies carrying water for their 3M masters, for beginners they are Mullahs, Missionaries and Marxists.


http://www.geocities.co..._faq_meets_reality.html

RSK
LA, United States
Mar 04, 2006 12:00 AM
240
REETA

I warned people here already not to take OLD MAC seriously or try to engage in any kind of debate. He is just here to throw the 3M’s garbage at Hindus. By the way you don’t have to * him when you call him names. Go ahead and do it, it deserves much worse.
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 05, 2006 12:00 AM
241
OLD MAC's profile:

Appearance: A sixty something balding Indian, all of five feet and four inches, with of course the customary mustache.

Profession: An instructor in some obscure or irrelevant humanities stream. A man who probably sucked enough dick in the academia to get a tenure. Does no research of his own, teaches other people's ideas. He would do research if he could, but he has not the creative genius for it.
He is probably one of those 3rd tier phds making a living by verifying the results of other peoples theories. Technician is the word I'm looking for. But hey!! it takes all kinds!!

perosnality: suffers from Megalomania, a hubris bordering on proportions that cannot be captured by mere words. Of course all this to make up for his congenital inability to think, critically analyze and form ideas. In short, a lack of individuality/personality. A third rate intellect with pretensions of a thinker!! A pompous doppelganger of mediocrity!!

Other interests: thinks that will smith is the epitome of music!! *ahem not much need to be said there...

so deepak, let the poor half assed wretch stew in his sewer, for that is all he has got.
SC
TN, USA
Mar 05, 2006 12:00 AM
242
Once again, during daytime, US Eastern Standard Time, OLD MAC etc. are in their holes, sleeping, so that the postings on this forum are factual. But the sun is going down. Get your nose-clamps ready.
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 05, 2006 12:00 AM
243
You are correct Sudhin when you say that the influence of RSS inspired organisations are increasing.

But they are not liberal. They have to create a liberal outlook. They cannot think of becoming a pan-indian entity until and unless they adopt the hindu mantra of vasudev kutumbakam and that all religion lead to same god.

They have to develop a liberal outlook of society

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Mar 05, 2006 12:00 AM
244
>>> But they are not liberal

One more parrot repeating commie’s propaganda blindly.
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 05, 2006 12:00 AM
245
would anyone know which town in India is Old Mac originally from, how long he has been in USA and in which institution(and city) in USA is this man attached to?Does he still have any relatives in India? If anyone in India knows about this man, I would appreciate if he/she gets in touch with me.

Does this man have any daughters? Does he also indulge in sexual talks with them like he does here and use such crude language with them as he uses with members on this forum? I am sure he has also used abusive,filthy language against people in other magazines. I would request all members to pass the word around that anyone in the past anywhere who has been abused by this man should report this man to the place where he works and to the govt.

For far too long, this man has abused all members in this forum. Time his employers got to know what sort of crude animal behaviour and what filthy abusive language this man uses against people.

And Old Mac do read my last post,it is easy abusing people hiding behind a pc, if u have ba*** come to UK and try getting abuse on my face or send me your address, I will come to the place where u work and if you have guts try abusing me in person. Alternatively I challenge you to a open public debate. I will also get proof of your past writings aimed at creating hatred and show it to everyone so that the world knows what a crude animal you are.

Reeta
London, United Kingdom
Mar 05, 2006 12:00 AM
246
Slowly and slowly the agenda of the so-called "South Asian Academicians" and "historians" is being exposed. I have never heard of any Hindu in United States going to any of these "experts" for any kind of religious advice. On the other hand halls and auditoriums fill up whenever swamis such as Sri Sri Ravi Shankar visit the town. This is because we know that most of these "academicians" and "experts" do not practice the Hindu religion (they only have a Hindu name), have westernized attitudes and life styles. Just like my Christian neighbors they have have no inkling of what makes Hinduism sublime, the ethos and ferver that provide solace and guidance to millions of Hindus. But does it prevent them from commenting about the religion! No, Sir. They come in droves, salivating at the thought of public display of their "expertise". Not having any intimate experience of the bliss that is experienced by the devotees, they conjure up imaginary demons such as RSS, Hindutva, VHP,...(put in as many Hindu organization as you like).

Ms. Thapar, I am a practicing Hindu. I am proud of being a Hindu and I want my children to be the same. I want my children to read exactly what I practice, fair and square.

Ms. Thapar, you have yourself claimed that you are a marxist and do not believe in religion. Still, we love you because that is what Hinduism teaches.
Virendra
Santa Clara, United States
Mar 05, 2006 12:00 AM
247
Virendra writes:
"Still, we love you because that is what Hinduism teaches."

Speak for yourself, Virendraji. :-)

This scumbag lies to peddle her wares, in order to hurt little children and make them feel like they don't belong in the world - to make them feel that their parents are inferior, their heritage is inferior.

Because that's what enables her to get paid for services rendered to the racist bigots who call her "India's Most Talked About Histerian".

I don't love her. I take seriously BOTH parts of the saying:

"Paritranaya Sadhoonaam
Vinasaya ca Dushkrtaam..."

Witzel and Thapar are "dushkrtaah" all right. Of course, now, Witzel and Thapar, don't take "vinasaya" to mean that I would even dream of soiling my hands with physical violence against low-life like you - just that your dishonesty must be exposed for all to see, and your pompous arrogance must be deflated so that all can see you for the pathetic lowlife that you are.

Long may you live, in disgrace and contempt. And take OLD MAC and RAJIV SANDHU and NITWITZEL with you so he can kiss your musharrafs when Steven Alan Pico-Plagiarist Farmer and Lars LoLife the Nazi are away kissing each other.
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 05, 2006 12:00 AM
248
Well mostly hindus in india are sanatani hindus.

Only in recent years are we seeing westernised and modernised hindus in the name of hindutva brandising there hinduism

Sanatani hindus are not that politically active and as they are practising hindus so that is why they dont go too much on the internet.

The best sanatani hindu example that i have is my mother. If Mrs Thapar and company ever goes to her she will give a BIG thapad to her and drive her out of her house.

I know that recently hindus in the name of internal reform have actually taken on hindutva which sincerely is even more obscure than hinduism.

If two supporters of hindutva can give me the same meaning of hindutva i will be surprised. So much for the so called unity within hinduism.

The hindutva guys are chasing a chimera. Hinduism by nature means an individuals search for knowledge. This is the essense of hinduism and on this philosophy all hindus have been bred. There basic logic is faith. It is derived on the basis of faith.

Hindutva movement wants to somehow rationalism faith. Like rationalise prayers. Prayers cannot be rationalised.

And as far as Mr RSK claim that RSS is a liberal organisation(as he wants to say that what i am saying is wrong).

I can give instances after instances where they have not shown regard for individual freedom, has a great penchant towards majoritanism and violence and wants to impose one point of view on everybody.

Regarding violence.

Being an apologist of events like Babri Masjid demolition and Gujrat riots

Regarding individual freedom

Trying to impose there form of hinduism on everybody and trying create an environment within the social system where a hindu has to conform to some kind of rules to pass a test of being a hindu. This is blatant majoritanism

Regarding majoritanism

Not giving muslims enough individual space to function as a society and always demonizing them. Here I will have to give to RSS some regards to actually create awareness among common hindus regarding the danger called islamism and how it can and will affect us hindus in the long run. But unfortunately they dont have any solution. The only thing they have is a problem statement.

I will like to see response of RSK on this point. When he claims that RSS is a liberal organisation working for all sections of indian society, he has to show proof.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Mar 05, 2006 12:00 AM
249
Wow! A whole Saturday night went by, and no ranting from OLD MAC. Must have been the weekly marijuana / whisy orgy at the local Communist Party get-together.

Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 06, 2006 12:00 AM
250
Ari Saja writes:

>>Once again, during daytime, US Eastern Standard Time, OLD MAC etc. are in their holes, sleeping, so that the postings on this forum are factual. But the sun is going down. Get your nose-clamps ready.

>>Wow! A whole Saturday night went by, and no ranting from OLD MAC. Must have been the weekly marijuana / whisy orgy at the local Communist Party get-together.

Somebody is going through withdrawal symptoms…..you need to join O.A. (Old Mac’s Anonymous)…you are addicted
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 06, 2006 12:00 AM
251
Khan writes:

>> Old Mac, you slimy, fanatic Christian snake, your parents must have been Lepers in India who may have been converted by some Christian missionaries to Christianity. This explains your ‘gandi, kamini zubaan' and 'dalali wali(pimp middleman)harkatain'.

The leprosy claim is a bit exaggerated. New ID = existing poster donning a new avatar. Nice try punk. You should be a little less ham-handed in your attempt to manipulate. Lest you haven't figured it out, I am quite difficult to manipulate.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 06, 2006 12:00 AM
252
S(herlock) C(onehead) writes:

>>OLD MAC's profile:

>>Appearance: A sixty something balding Indian, all of five feet and four inches, with of course the customary mustache.

>>Profession: An instructor in some obscure or irrelevant humanities stream. A man who probably sucked enough dick in the academia to get a tenure. Does no research of his own, teaches other people's ideas. He would do research if he could, but he has not the creative genius for it. He is probably one of those 3rd tier phds making a living by verifying the results of other peoples theories. Technician is the word I'm looking for. But hey!! it takes all kinds!!

>>perosnality: suffers from Megalomania, a hubris bordering on proportions that cannot be captured by mere words. Of course all this to make up for his congenital inability to think, critically analyze and form ideas. In short, a lack of individuality/personality. A third rate intellect with pretensions of a thinker!! A pompous doppelganger of mediocrity!!

>>Other interests: thinks that will smith is the epitome of music!! *ahem not much need to be said there...

>>so deepak, let the poor half assed wretch stew in his sewer, for that is all he has got.

A sixty-year old bald man who listens to Will Smith…hmm. I don’t know why Sherlock Conehead wastes his talents in Tennessee instead of running the FBI’s Profiling Division. I can get on the bat phone and have a Department of Justice Lear jet fetch El Conehead. It will whisk you off to Quantico, Virginia where your bloodhound like talents can be fully exploited.

I understand that your worldview falls apart and you'll be devastated to the point of curling up into a fetal position under your bed and sucking your thumb and wanting your mommie, if your profiling weren’t true. It is precisely because you misdirect your energies with self-comforting fantasies...why your opponents stomp on your head.

While the details of my life are quite inconsequential, your unbearable curiosity is understandable. Very well. Where do I begin?

My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner from Belgium with a low-grade narcolepsy and penchant for buggery. My mother was a 15-year-old French prostitute named Chloe with webbed feet.

My father would womanize and drink and make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. He would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise only the genius possess and the insane lament.

My childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon. Luge lessons. In summers, we would make meat helmets. When I was insolent, I would be put in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds. Pretty standard, really.

At 14, I met an Austrian name Wilma who ritualistically shaved my testicles.

At 18, I went off to Medical School.

At 25, I took up tap dancing lessons. I wanted to be a quadruple threat. You know singing, dancing, acting and healing.

(Apologies to Dr. Evil from Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery)

You might want to wrestle with my opinions. They do not lose their potency just because you can self-deceive yourself into imagining what I am or who I am. Such a self-defense mechanism is of no use. Otherwise, you will wind up in the nuthouse.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 06, 2006 12:00 AM
253
Deepak writes:

>>There seems to be a pattern to the strategy followed by Old Mac, everytime some member makes a posts his comments on any article e.g. I posted my comments against Thapar, Old Mac instead of making his own comments on the said article starts making direct,abusive personal attacks on other members in the most filthy,abusive language.

Just a friendly reminder to renew your subscription to The Wuss Magazine.

>>Any member who has personal details about Old Mac, please let us know. Some of the members are planning to take legal action against Old Mac for the personal abusive comments he has being making and the subtle threats he has been giving to members of this forum.

>>Both civil and criminal charges should be brought against him.

I have taken the liberty to draft a complaint for you:

In the Court of Crybaby Whiners
Retarded Division

Deepak et. al.
Plaintiffs Civil/Criminal
Complaint
Vs.

Old Mac,
Defendant

Count 1 (Intentional Interference with Ignorance)

Defendant, intentionally and willfully interfered with Plaintiffs bliss by unveiling their ignorance. Plaintiffs have built an elaborate fictitious world they inhabit and they knew exactly their place and everything made sense. Defendant disturbed plaintiff’s minds and worldview by expressing his opinion and unveiling their ignorance. The plaintiffs lack the intellectual resources to deal with this unveiling and suffer from severe loss of sleep and confidence in the foundations of their fictitious world.

Count 2 (Intentional Interference with Idiocy)

Defendant, intentionally and willfully interfered with Plaintiff’s bliss by unveiling their idiocy. Plaintiffs have built an elaborate fictitious world they inhabit and they knew exactly their place and everything made sense. Defendant disturbed plaintiff’s minds and worldview by expressing his opinion and unveiling their idiocy. The plaintiffs lack the intellectual resources to deal with this unveiling and suffer from severe loss of sleep and confidence in the foundations of their fictitious world.

Count 3 (Intentional Interference with Inability)

Defendant, intentionally and willfully interfered with Plaintiff’s bliss by unveiling their inability. Plaintiffs have built an elaborate fictitious world they inhabit and they knew exactly their place and everything made sense. Defendant disturbed plaintiff’s minds and worldview by expressing his opinion and unveiling their inability. The plaintiffs lack the intellectual resources to deal with this unveiling and suffer from severe loss of sleep and confidence in the foundations of their fictitious world.

WHEREFORE, the Plaintiffs respectfully request the court to permanently enjoin the Defendant from thinking and expressing his opinion. Additionally, the Defendant should be warned not to express his opinion in an effective way at they leave the plaintiffs gasping for air as though punched in the solar plexus. Furthermore, the Defendant should be instructed to adopt a dull and boring writing style to accommodate our thin-skins.

Furthermore, as Criminal Sanctions, the Plaintiffs request the court to enforce the Free Speech Guarantees in the Indian Constitution by incarcerating the Defendant for the rest of his life. Unlike our undemocratic neighbors who do not respect Free Speech Rights, India should be exemplary and enforce those rights by jailing the
Defendant.

Signed,
Plaintiffs

>>I
n case Old Mac is based in USA, persons like him provoking racial hatred in USA should be brought to the notice of appropriate authorities. He has crossed all limits of decency and has now has also started making derogatory sexual remarks against women on this forum.

If any, they were deserved in response.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 06, 2006 12:00 AM
254
Reeka writes:

>>>>The impression you should fret about is that of your big rear end wherever you sit.

>>Go and tell this to your MOTHER and your daughter(if u have any)

A Chaddette introduces the inevitable topic of mothers, sisters and daughters!!!

>>Old Mac,If you are not an illigitimate Bas**** child why don't you come and try abusing me on my face in UK you pimp...

Now, now. Just because you don’t know who your daddy is doesn’t mean everybody doesn't.

>>It is easy for you and your creepy crawy friends to use gutteral,filthy,abusive language while talking about Hinduism and other members of this forum on the net

Once we set aside that inconvenient right to express one’s opinion, can you be more specific?

>>I have NEVER seen such a third rate animal like this Old Mac...

Au contraire…..you see one everyday in the mirror when you are shaving your upper lip...

>>you are a shameless ass****,

I am aspiring to be a shameful one though I suspect it’s not much of an improvement.

>>Just not me, the swear,abusive words u are using against any member who disagrees with u is seen to be believed...if u are not a complete bas****,

What if I am only a partial bas****?

>>send me your address or phone number and I will call you on the phone or personally come and confront u in USA...

You shouldn’t be soliciting for dates online.

>>Or a coward bas***** like you can only get abusive on the net? I am challenging you to either send me your address and I will come to USA and personally confront you or you come and meet me in UK and try using such filthy abusive words that you use on the net in front of me...so u bloody coward, if u have guts,I even challenge you to an open public debate face to face either in UK or USA...

The United States Department of Agriculture will not let livestock like you into the USA until you get your rabbies shots.

>>I even challenge you to an open public denate.

I am ready to concede that you are a champion public defecator.

>>if u have guts send me your postal address in your reply or let me know when u r coming to UK...if u have balls, come here and use such filthy language u use on the net in front of me and see what happens...

Let me guess…you are going to sit my face and suffocate me? Wonder if the coroner puts down weight or stench as to the cause of the death.

>>would anyone know which town in India is Old Mac originally from, how long he has been in USA and in which institution(and city) in USA is this man attached to?Does he still have any relatives in India? If anyone in India knows about this man, I would appreciate if he/she gets in touch with me.

Laughing out Loud, We have a stalker in our midst.

>>Does he also indulge in sexual talks with them like he does here and use such crude language with them as he uses with members on this forum? I am sure he has also used abusive,filthy language against people in other magazines. I would request all members to pass the word around that anyone in the past anywhere who has been abused by this man should report this man to the place where he works and to the govt.

But you have to first concede that you are unable to win a debate.

>>Time his employers got to know what sort of crude animal behaviour and what filthy abusive language this man uses against people.

>>if u have ba*** come to UK and try getting abuse on my face or send me your address, I will come to the place where u work and if you have guts try abusing me in person. Alternatively I challenge you to a open public debate...show it to everyone so that the world knows what a crude animal you are.

You lack the mental stability to dice vegetables with a sharp knife let alone debate me.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 06, 2006 12:00 AM
255
Come on people...... do not get so agitated.

Old Mac has been in this forum for a long time and is notorious for "not contributing to the debate". He provides total unadulterated entertainment with his ranting which he presumes are great pronouncements of intellect.

His evangelist fervour in coming to this forum daily to denouce anything that is Hindu and/or Indian is admirable, if it was not so pathetic.

Essentially, he is a choir boy (an overgrown one that is) who gets humped by the holy reverends in his rear end daily. When the "padres" and "brethren" let him out he gets onto his dope and vomits on this forum.

Don't take this kindergarten punk seriously. Then, you would actually begin to enjoy his posts - full of delusions of intellect, glory and wisdom.
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Mar 06, 2006 12:00 AM
256
Old Mac, going by your retarded replies, I fully agree with Srinivas when he says a 'kindergarten punk' like you should not been taken seriously.
Reeta
London, United Kingdom
Mar 06, 2006 12:00 AM
257

Two things members in this forum should understand about people like Old Mac. No. 1, these 'publicity ka bhooka' people like Old Mac can do or say anything to get free publicity. The only thing they dread is being ignored so members should simply ignore him.

No.2 their actual bread & butter comes from funding which they receive from extremist, right-wing Christian organisations. This enables these fraud activists like Old Mac to live a lavish lifestyle.

These fanatic, right-wing Christian organisations, funding men like Old Mac, have two primary goals, first is to fund some forums and individuals(like friends of South Asia and Old Mac etc.) to mouth false propaganda in order to keep showing Hinduism in bad light. Secondly, to use ‘saam, daam, dund, bhed’ to convert Hindus to Christianity e.g. offering some Hindus in NE regions, tribal etc in India monetary incentives to convert to Christianity.

People funded from these Christian organisations( e.g. members of South Asia forum and people like Old Mac) have to justify huge amounts of money these people regularly get from these Christian organisations. They(friends of South Asia forum, individuals like Old Mac) have to regularly show results to their masters to justify the money these free loaders get from these organisations so as I said the only thing men like Old Mac dread is being ignored because in that scenario their funding would stop as then they are no more useful to these organisations.

Therefore men like Old Mac go overboard to criticise Hinduism(in fact likes of Old Mac will go to any extent in both words and actions because of free thousands of dollars they get for such anti-Hindu activities). Hence you see this over the top sort of behaviour as displayed by Old Mac.
Sanju Sharma
Mumbai, India
Mar 06, 2006 12:00 AM
258
Review of Romila Thappar's book:

http://www.indiastar.com/venkat1.html
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 06, 2006 12:00 AM
259
Indiastar.com.....not exactly a intellectually rigorous reputable source.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 06, 2006 12:00 AM
260
Reeka writes:

>>Old Mac, going by your retarded replies, I fully agree with Srinivas when he says a 'kindergarten punk' like you should not been taken seriously.

Where did all your testosterone go? You were ready to book your tickets to come to the U.S. to engage in a public debate with me...inform my employers and authorities...track down my relatives (if any)...in India...presumably to lynch them. What happened?
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 06, 2006 12:00 AM
261
Yeah, and outlook is a reputable site for sure since it's allowed trash talk by old mac?
Discussion here seems like Farmboy's IER !!
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 06, 2006 12:00 AM
262
Another Witzel crony:
Homi Bhabha: A Harvard professor of English, and American Literature and Language. He is a specialist in post-colonialist theory.
Anyone see any connection to ancient India? I don’t.
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 06, 2006 12:00 AM
263
Witzel Crony #2: Win van Winsbergen: His research interests include “religion in Africa (both traditional African religion, Christianity and Islam -- recently with special emphasis on animal symbolism, shamanism, and long-range comparison ); intercultural philosophy especially epistemology; African and Ancient history; Afrocentricity; ethnicity, ancient and modern statehood; globalisation, virtuality and mediatisation.”.
Do you see any connection to ancient India?
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 06, 2006 12:00 AM
264
Backscratcher's club: ICHR

How come that Romila Thapar has been on the Council four times? Irfan Habib five times? Satish Chandra four times? S. Gopal three times?.... The same goes for the post of Chairman.

Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 06, 2006 12:00 AM
265
Sridhar writes:

>>Yeah, and outlook is a reputable site for sure since it's allowed trash talk by old mac?

They no more endorse my viewpoint than yours, dingleberry. They provide a forum as a marketplace for ideas. The theory is good opinions win and bad ones lose over time. Personally, I think they also provide a great service to the nation. It lets frustrated boobs like you to vent their spleens instead of torching and murdering women and children.

>>Discussion here seems like Farmboy's IER !!

As opposed to a gathering of Chaddis where they stroke each other with ridiculouser and ridiculouser claims?
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 06, 2006 12:00 AM
266
Old Hare brain writes:

"You might want to wrestle with my opinions. They do not lose their potency just because you can self-deceive yourself into imagining what I am or who I am.."

Stick a sock up all your orificial openings and levitate a while. Perhaps then you might come close to a "potent" opinion.

Such a pompous, pretentious scumbag!! Now that you are washing all your genealogical linen in public unasked, are you sure that your whore-for-a-dime mom and piss-drunk-monkey for a dad didn't meet at the school for freaks-that-missed-evolution ? Little wonder then that you suffer from "potent" opinions and such like delusions....

Your banal, trite, illogical, hackneyed frothings deserve no response......
SC
TN, USA
Mar 06, 2006 12:00 AM
267
Ari:

I think it's clear.

On weekend the our stale old mac went to IER where they disect "socio-political" issues.

But on weekdays, no such trash talk allowed in IER, one has to use Outlook as a outpost.

Damn that 'weekend only' rule at IER. A thousand curses that weasel and his farmer.

Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
268
Another Witzel brown-noser: Madhav Deshpande

Professor of Sanskrit at University of Michigan at Ann Arbor. An American, who does not like to be called an Indian, and visits India now ‘only as a tourist’. He characterizes the scholarship of India as regurgitation of what others have said in the past, and is a fellow traveler of Indian American Communists. His detractors call him ‘Gunga Din’ (reminding one of the slavish Indian water carrier of British troops in colonial India’), and he was recently caught speaking half-truths about Hinduism to a Wall-Street Journal reporter according to another article. In short, we may call him an honorary white. Co-editor of Witzel’s ‘Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies’, and also publishes books in the Harvard Oriental Series edited by Witzel. Has a very desiccated and negative opinion of Hinduism.


http://www.india-forum....a-Din-Comes-to-Michigan


http://www.india-forum.com/articles/87/1/Is-Madhav-Deshpande-an-amnesiac%3F
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
269
Sherlock Conehead writes:

>>Such a pompous, pretentious scumbag!! Now that you are washing all your genealogical linen in public unasked,

This is going to be fun. Why can't I have opponents who are atleast cognizant of the fact they are being mocked?

>>Your banal, trite, illogical, hackneyed frothings deserve no response......

Because redundant and disconnected gibbersh doesn't amount to a response, presuming you are capable to respond?

Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
270
"This is going to be fun. Why can't I have opponents who are atleast cognizant of the fact they are being mocked?...."
fun indeed, especially if I do the parody inturn and take it a notch further. You apparently believe that you have the sole rights to "mocking"!! read again, even an airhead will should able to recognize that I was returning your favor in kind. Retard....

"Because redundant and disconnected gibbersh doesn't amount to a response, presuming you are capable to respond?"
NO, Because YOUR redundant and disconnected gibbersh doesn't NEED a response.
SC
TN, USA
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
271
Old Mac writes:

Where did all your testosterone go? You were ready to book your tickets to come to the U.S. to engage in a public debate with me...inform my employers and authorities...track down my relatives (if any)...in India...presumably to lynch them. What happened?

Come on, stop giving illogical,retarded replies, I had said sent me your address and I would come and confront you but you chickened out and refused to give any details about yourself coming up with pathetic excuses and more abuses on the net.

As Srinivas said u r just a 'kindergarten punk' not to be taken seriously.

And nice try you old punk,talking of 'lynching etc(the best sort of defence is offence)..stop putting words in my mouth...I am not some cheap punk like you to resort to abuses and lynching.Now that you find yourself in a corner, you are trying very hard to prepare a case for yourself by insinuating others wants to 'lynch' your relatives...nice try...
Reeta
London, United Kingdom
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
272
Two things members in this forum should understand about people like Old Mac. No. 1, these 'publicity ka bhooka' people like Old Mac can do or say anything to get free publicity. The only thing they dread is being ignored so members should simply ignore him.

No.2 their actual bread & butter comes from funding which they receive from extremist, right-wing Christian organisations. This enables these fraud activists like Old Mac to live a lavish lifestyle.

These fanatic, right-wing Christian organisations, funding men like Old Mac, have two primary goals, first is to fund some forums and individuals(like friends of South Asia and Old Mac etc.) to mouth false propaganda in order to keep showing Hinduism in bad light. Secondly, to use ‘saam, daam, dund, bhed’ to convert Hindus to Christianity e.g. offering some Hindus in NE regions, tribal etc in India monetary incentives to convert to Christianity.

People funded from these Christian organisations( e.g. members of South Asia forum and people like Old Mac) have to justify huge amounts of money these people regularly get from these Christian organisations. They(friends of South Asia forum, individuals like Old Mac) have to regularly show results to their masters to justify the money these free loaders get from these organisations so as I said the only thing men like Old Mac dread is being ignored because in that scenario their funding would stop as then they are no more useful to these organisations.

Therefore men like Old Mac go overboard to criticise Hinduism(in fact likes of Old Mac will go to any extent in both words and actions because of free thousands of dollars they get for such anti-Hindu activities). Hence you see this over the top sort of behaviour as displayed by Old Mac. OLD MAC DELIBERATELY TRIES TO PROVOKE MEMBERS SO THAT MEMBERS RESPOND TO HIM. JUST TOTALLY IFNORE THIS MAN AS BY REPLYING TO HIM YOU ARE PLAYING RIGHT INTO HIS HANDS. TOTALLY IGNORE THIS MAN AS THAT WOULD HURT THIS MAN AS HIS USEFULNESS TO CHRISTIAN ORGANISATIONS AND HIS FUNDING WOULD STOP ONCE HE BECOMES PERSONA NON GRATA.
Sanju Sharma
Mumbai, India
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
273
Two things members in this forum should understand about people like Old Mac. No. 1, these 'publicity ka bhooka' people like Old Mac can do or say anything to get free publicity. The only thing they dread is being ignored so members should simply ignore him.

No.2 their actual bread & butter comes from funding which they receive from extremist, right-wing Christian organisations. This enables these fraud activists like Old Mac to live a lavish lifestyle.

These fanatic, right-wing Christian organisations, funding men like Old Mac, have two primary goals, first is to fund some forums and individuals(like friends of South Asia and Old Mac etc.) to mouth false propaganda in order to keep showing Hinduism in bad light. Secondly, to use ‘saam, daam, dund, bhed’ to convert Hindus to Christianity e.g. offering some Hindus in NE regions, tribal etc in India monetary incentives to convert to Christianity.

People funded from these Christian organisations( e.g. members of South Asia forum and people like Old Mac) have to justify huge amounts of money these people regularly get from these Christian organisations. They(friends of South Asia forum, individuals like Old Mac) have to regularly show results to their masters to justify the money these free loaders get from these organisations so as I said the only thing men like Old Mac dread is being ignored because in that scenario their funding would stop as then they are no more useful to these organisations.

Therefore men like Old Mac go overboard to criticise Hinduism(in fact likes of Old Mac will go to any extent in both words and actions because of free thousands of dollars they get for such anti-Hindu activities). Hence you see this over the top sort of behaviour as displayed by Old Mac. OLD MAC DELIBERATELY TRIES TO PROVOKE MEMBERS SO THAT MEMBERS RESPOND TO HIM. JUST TOTALLY IFNORE THIS MAN AS BY REPLYING TO HIM YOU ARE PLAYING RIGHT INTO HIS HANDS. TOTALLY IGNORE THIS MAN AS THAT WOULD HURT THIS MAN AS HIS USEFULNESS TO CHRISTIAN ORGANISATIONS AND HIS FUNDING WOULD STOP ONCE HE BECOMES PERSONA NON GRATA.
Sanju Sharma
Mumbai, India
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
274
Reeka writes:

>>And nice try you old punk,talking of 'lynching etc(the best sort of defence is offence)..stop putting words in my mouth...I am not some cheap punk like you to resort to abuses and lynching.

Then why were you fulminating about me and speculating about my background? What relevance is it to discussing the California Textbook controversy? Go reread your previous PMS ravings...

>>Now that you find yourself in a corner, you are trying very hard to prepare a case for yourself by insinuating others wants to 'lynch' your relatives...nice try...

Twits like you are incapable of manuvering me into a "corner." Why do you want to know about such irrelevancies such as my relatives? You want to send them flowers?
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
275
Yet another Witzel crony"

Lars Martin Fosse

He is an obscure Sanskritist who has hardly ever held a teaching position in the University environment. His sole book publication is a rehash of his non-conclusive PhD that explored unsuccessfully the use of computational statistics to determine the relative chronology of Sanskrit texts. He is primarily the author of extremely mediocre non-descript ‘reviews’ of books in regional journals such as ‘Acta Orientalia’ published in Scandinavia. His bonhomie with right-wing Christians and scholars alleged to be Khalistani supporters has already been noted in another article which reveals how he sought their help in the CA Textbooks controversy to counter the Hindu American textbook reform initiative. In another public list, he actually wrote an apologia for the dreaded Islamist group Taliban by saying that they were motivated to destroy the Bamiyan Buddhas because Hinduutva people keep labeling them as idol-breakers! He is obsessed with Hindutva, but it is clear that his real target of hatred are Hindus per se. It appears to me that indulgence in these ‘moral’ issues improves his sense of self-worth, even if he has to collaborate with right-wing Christians, alleged Khalistanis.



http://www.india-forum....Michael-Witzel-Petition
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
276
Sridhar writes:

>>Yet another Witzel crony"

>>Lars Martin Fosse

Ever thought of composing your own text instead of spamming with cut and paste jobs? On the other hand, your chaddiness does mean you may not be capable of doing anything beyond that. Carry on.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
277
Yaaaaaaawwwn...

Another Weasel, this time:

Maruzio Tosi

Archaeologist, and Italy’s ex-ambassador to India. In his work Colonial Indology (1997, Munshiram Manoharlal: New Delhi), Dilip Chakrabarti shows (pp. 167-171) how Tosi denies the very originality of Harappan culture and reduces it effectively to a raw-material supplier to Mesopotamia. After the Witzel petition went out and the inclusion of Tosi’s name in the list of signatories was publicized, Dr Kalyanaraman wrote a letter to all the signatories. In return, he got a particularly xenophobic response dt. 11 December 2005 from Tosi (who is incidentally married to an Indian) that- “So if you choose to send your chjildren to our schools, to train them in a competitive environment of science....DO NOT bother us with the crap of your soulms and fears. We have enough of fanatics who exploit our liberality; Your freedom ends where mine begins..... ". Now this sounds like some right-wing anti-immigration ideologue of a political party in Europe.

Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
278
Are these teh demoralized Hindutvadis you talk about Herr Witzel?


http://hindueducation.o...a/HEF_VF_Supporterx.gif


Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
279
Sridhar writes:

>>Are these teh demoralized Hindutvadis you talk about Herr Witzel?

No amount of spamming will undo the fact that you Chaddis got whacked in the Text Book Controversy...live with it.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
280
OLD MAC:

I know that intelligence is not one of your faults, but let me explain real slowly to you:

NO "Academic Community" "wins" by bullying the community with arrogance and dishonesty as your friends the Commies and IER have done so far.

All you've done is to come out and flash. Now that we've all seen what you have to show, and we know your "standards" of honesty and knowledge, we can discuss your price or value if any.

Yeah, I am deeply impressed by "Sanskrit Scholars" who "understand Sanskrit in translated form" like your hero Steven Alan Farmer the dumbass who couldn't even get promoted to Associate Professor at a dump like U. Lousiana. You know, the one who has been nominated for the Noah Bull Pi*s Price:

Do gloat .. until sense dawns, hopefully far, far too late as usual for your crowd of idiots...
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
281
Don't believe the FOSA propoganada:

The truth is that:
- All the nine textbooks mention and describe untouchability. The Vedic Foundation has not proposed even one edit that relates to untouchability in any of these nine textbooks.
- The Hindu Education Foundation proposes no edit on sections related to untouchability for 3 out of the 9 textbooks.
- In the remaining textbooks, HEF proposed seven edits related to untouchability. Dr Bajpai accepted 6/7, and rejected the seventh, proposing an alternate statement in lieu. Michael Witzel lead CRP accepted 6/7 of Dr Bajpai’s recommendations (including the modified statement).
- Dr Michael Witzel lead CRP did not reject any of Dr Bajpai’s or HEF’s edits of importance or substance related to untouchability. They disagreed only in the Prentice Hall book related edit wherein HEF and Dr Bajpai want the removal of the highly politicized word ‘Dalit’, whereas Witzel wanted to retain it.
- In short, if HEF/Dr Bajpai are whitewashing untouchability, so is Dr Michael Witzel. The fact that he objects only to HEF/Bajpai recommendation on removal of an activist/militant/politicized inaccurate term seems to suggest to me that Witzel’s evaluation of untouchability related edits was informed less by academic concerns and more by politics.

Read details at:

http://www.india-forum....reads-False-Propaganda.

Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
282
Ari:

FOSA held a meet last year in San Francisco with their allies like AID, Paki Alliance for smashing something, empty turbans for Khalistan etc...

See the image:

http://www.geocities.co...ia_info/glimpse-502.jpg
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
283
Old Mac writes:

Twits like you are incapable of manuvering me into a "corner." Why do you want to know about such irrelevancies such as my relatives? You want to send them flowers?

You punk, has it ever occurred to you that someone may want to get in touch with your Indian relatives to acquaint them with your anti-India activities. They would be so proud to hear your anti-India rhetoric.
Reeta
London, United Kingdom
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
284
Ari Saja writes:

>>NO "Academic Community" "wins" by bullying the community with arrogance and dishonesty as your friends the Commies and IER have done so far.

Au contraire, the vote was 5-0. If that's not a win, I don't know what is.

>>Yeah, I am deeply impressed by "Sanskrit Scholars" who "understand Sanskrit in translated form" like your hero Steven Alan Farmer the dumbass who couldn't even get promoted to Associate Professor at a dump like U. Lousiana.

Getting your ass handed to you on a platter by someone so small in your estimation, I hope, is doubly or triply humiliating for you.

>>Do gloat .. until sense dawns, hopefully far, far too late as usual for your crowd of idiots...

Champagne and cigars all around. I am sure when you take over the world, you can enslave all of us. In the meantime, your 6th grade essays on "India-Forum" are wonderful reading material.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
285
Ari:

Do you know that Witzel's mentor who's Harvard Trustee is Alan Bresin. And this same Bresin is today Sec of Ed at California.
The was a complete failure during his term in San Deigo and his appointment had raised some eyebrows


http://www.cta.org/News/2005/20050429_1.htm


Seems like book writing business in California is huge. I mean paying for a throughly discredited Professor Witzel to fly often from Boston Logan to Sacramento isn't cheap.

I say discredited because we do know for a fact that a muslim today sits on the chair for Witzel's Dept and Witzel was kicked out over a decade ago from the same.

Harvard's own publication has this:

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=500579



Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
286
OLD MAC:

"Au contraire, the vote was 5-0. If that's not a win, I don't know what is. "

Let me help you - a real decision by humans with something other than sh1t between their ears.
These 5 idiots did not read the edits, and if they had, they would not have understood.

"5-0" was exactly that: FIVE ZEROES.

BTW, glad you enjoyed my essays on India Forum. Actually I write them for 4th-graders, so you'll be able to understand them in oh.... another 7 years or so when you get to 5th grade.

Anyway, I am glad you finally saw the need to read something other than Witzel-Thapar. Any day now you may graduate to something REALLY deep like "Princess of the Pe(a)" or "Goldie Locks and the 3 Little Hindutva Bears".

:-)
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
287
Ari Saja writes:

>>Let me help you - a real decision by humans with something other than sh1t between their ears.

Most 4th graders can write in complete sentences.

>>These 5 idiots did not read the edits, and if they had, they would not have understood.

I imagine this winning attitude will come in handy in all future battles.

>>"5-0" was exactly that: FIVE ZEROES.

You are just a bottomless well of wit.

>>BTW, glad you enjoyed my essays on India Forum. Actually I write them for 4th-graders,

I was concerned that the 6th grader level might be too ambitious for your target audience: the Chaddis.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
288
3000 Indians have expressed disgust on Witzel's racists comments. Have you?


http://www.petitiononli...m/stopIER/petition.html

Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
289
OLD FART writes:

"Most 4th graders can write in complete sentences."

Sure, and most 2nd graders can understand when someone is answering a question that they pose.

Glad you were amused by the realization that the "5-0" meant FIVE ZEROES. We all know that you are easily amused, since you hang around here deriving such pleasure even from all the kicks you're getting. Life must be lonely for the Comrade in Wonderville.

OLD MAC, let me tell you a serious fact: my "audience" (I assume you mean readers - they don't read with their ears, unlike Commies) are NOT chaddis. I won't deny that I KNOW "chaddis" - but your co-idiots have always had a knack of attacking the wrong people.

Of course it makes life easy and pleasant for me, because it is so trivial to point out that you are liars, idiots, low-life etc. No offence intended, and nothing personal, of course. If you guys ever learned to do anything like honest research, things would be MUCH harder for me, then again, no, because they you would be doing HONEST work.

Nah! No danger of THAT happening. I looked down the list of 146 "South Asia Scholars". No surprise. Not ONE real researcher or teacher of any merit there. All semi-literates scratching each other's behinds at some lousy 6th-rate (not 6th grade which would be more sophisticated) Overhead-Eating service department of 10th rate colleges. Sorry, none of those would get admission as grad students in any place that I would even consider.

The best thing we have going for us is your continuing bleating about "Hindutva" and "chaddis". The noise reverberates in your skulls and prevents any danger of any new thinking later than Marx and Mao.

Good night. I am on East Coast time today. Maybe when I am back on the West Coast I can chitchat longer. Don't grow any brains, please. It's so cute to see adults with your intelligence posting on the internet!
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
290
Sridhar:

How DARE you post such "slander-russ" petitions here? SHOCKING!

Please learn to respect and admire the IndoEurasian Racist Forum:


http://irffanclub.blogspot.com/


Join OLD MAC in celebrating their great "victory".

Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
291
Ari sahib,

Know what Marx said (I mean Grucho, other Marxists readings I leave to people like Thappar,
Vinay Lal, Rajagopal etc), here it goes:

"He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don't let that fool you. He really is an idiot"

So ignore the troll and focus on the intellectual whore and her peddler from Harvard.

I'm amazed at the number of people who fall for this dimwit who's hijacking discussion to anything other than our favorite indologists.
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
292
>>How DARE you post such "slander-russ" petitions here? SHOCKING!

What's Witzel gonna do? Suit me? Or suit the petition signatories? The bluff's been called. Go ahead Witzel punk - do you feel lucky?
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
293
One thing I will say over here.

Out of curiosity to check out HEF and there credentials. I bought a book which is supported by HEF "The True History and Religion of India".

And let me tell all you guys who are supporting these edits in california textbooks.

If something like this stupid is even attempted to put into children books i am vehemently opposed to such edits.

I dont know what the edits are and would now like to know about the whole issue and get into the crux of matter.

But the venom that this book from "The True History and the Religion of India" flows is striking.

I cannot even imagine that if HEF actually supports a book like this then how can they put up a good enough literature for history of hinduism.

Personally I am disappointed by the level of people involved in getting the job done and giving a better representation to hinduism.

I was excited and looking forward to the fight, but looks like there are people trying to ascribe themselves to being hindus but have nothing even remotely hindu about themselves.

I think this is the precise reason why they failed. They did not have a better picture of hinduism and i guess they will keep failing, if they continue on this path.

There was a poster who posted some photograph of people involved in this edits also. I personally know them and used to meet them in Sunnyvale temple. I think that there view of hinduism is not correct and that they should change there view towards society and hinduism.

I now somehow believe that maybe this is a hindutva inspired agenda rather than a genuine effort to give better representation to hinduism in california textbooks and that is why maybe it failed.

The civil society within hindus should stand up and ask for edits and not some inspired groups who have a very different interpretation of hinduism

After doing good enough research into this i have come to the conclusion that it was more of an amplified response by some very narrow and vested groups to impose a narrow and constricted view of hinduism, instead of giving a more better and enlightining view of hinduism

I have to go through the edits personally and see what things were under contention and see what kind of propoganda has been used to justify the stands.

But the reality that hit my head was that HEF does not look to be a great organisation and looks like the book called "The True History of the Religion of India" is anything but true and is full of whining and persecution complex regarding everything that other people have done to attack hinduism. This is not my hinduism and I completely reject it and if HEF has to work towards better representation of hinduism then it has to do more work.

My frank and honest reply on the issue. It should be taken in the correct context and also in a proper way so that reforms within this section arrives and they can take a better fight with a broader view of hinduism the next time it happens again.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
294
deepak,

naheed will never answer your question directly..

infact he had posted a lengthy thesis as to why muslims dont and cant believe in nations or nationalism.. and its only islam and ummah for them..

the webmaster has removed it apparently..if naheed has the guts to repost it again..you will get your answer..

thx.
shankar
Mumbai, India
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
295
Naheed advises Sudhin " To accept anyones views only because he is a brilliant person is illogical. He is not a fool but you are since Only a fool will accept other peoples views without checking the facts."

Ok dude, by that logic, what facts did you verify / check before embarking on discourses and Mohammed was the messenger of Allah and that he the last Prophet and that there will be no other Prophet after him. Also, the fact that your holy book was given to Mohammed by God Himself and that he flew to Heaven in a "Golden Dome". Are all these based on facts you checked or are they based on some urban legends of the 622 A.D.?



You ask "Is this the same civilization where women were burnt for sati & dowry ?? " Yes it is the same civilisation - but atleast Sati is more or less defunct now (ok, you will bring up the issue of Roop Kanwar). But definitely not the civilisation where people blow up others because they would get 72 virgins in their after life.
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Mar 07, 2006 12:00 AM
296
Naheed:

>>Only a fool will accept other peoples views without checking the facts.
You mean like FOSA and FOIL cadre which was paraded at CA SBE last week complaining that they were "forced to eat dead animals for thousand years"? I mean if they had an ounce of brains between their ears, they'd have either figured a way to "eat animals live" or say something meaningful rather than make fool of themselves by reading notes passed to them by Gera and Rajagopal types. Right?



>>>First learn to become a good human being rather then talking about the

Now you are speaking. Good. But if I understand correctly, to be a good human one has to speak the truth without mudding facts.

No be a good human and tell me the truth - which of the 150+ edits in CA text book requires kids to read that idols drink milk (as you state) or age of universe was trillion years old (as Witzel states)? Here's the entire list if you don't have access to it

http://jitnasa.india-fo.../Critique-WitzelCRP.pdf

Or you can read the FOSA version too. Or have Witzel or Thappar mail you one. Or go to CA board website. Any version you wish, but point me to the edits you and Witzel are braying here about.

Would it be right to say that you have not read the edits requested. Neither has Witzel of that I'm sure too and he's evaded a direct question on that at Harvard citing a law suit which is NOT listed in any court of United States of America - till date. Yes, you and or Witzel is free to correct me or call me a liar on this with proof showing otherwise.

On a side note, Witzel, Thappar (and you?) parroting "historical accuracy" have yet to prove that burning bushes can speak or on Mohd could take shorthand notes while angel Gabriel spoke directly to him or for that matter virgins give birth.
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 08, 2006 12:00 AM
297
Naheed:

Flirting with Yindoos on an Internet Forum? Haraam! Haraaam! Don't get yourself a Fatwa, dear, or u may lose even more of ur anatomy.

What interest do you idiots have in a discussion on how HINDUISM should be represented in textbooks? Not enough that those texts lie about your fine religion, telling American kids that your goat-lovin' Ayrabs "treat women as equals"? That Osama and the Varanasi Bombers are followers of a "Religion of Peace"?

Try to re-enter human civilization b4 u try to go around advising others, dude.
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 08, 2006 12:00 AM
298
Outlook is now front face of world terrorist organisation.
I am waiting when Osman-bin-laden will send his article to proud Outlook to publish.
Till now Outlook had honored wishes of Khalistani, ISI, Communist, Maoist, Rapist, muderers....

One can find flith and dead brains only in OUTLOOK magazine.
Maharishi
San Francisco, United States
Mar 08, 2006 12:00 AM
299
Naheed

Wo, wo, wo, take it easy Naheed. Let me clarify one thing for you. Sati is NOT practiced through out India. In fact it was practiced only by one community and that is the warrior community of the brave Rajputs. And why did they practice Sati anyway? Which barbaric invaders were they fighting constantly? What did the barbarian’s religion say about war booty which forced the brave Rajputs to start the most tragic practice of Sati?

One simple answer is Islime and Mahamads. These Mahamad Mohammedans constantly invaded the western frontiers of India and took as war booty, women of defeated Rajput soldiers. To stop this inhuman, barbaric torture of the brave Rajput women, Sati came into practice. When this practice became redundant Hindus themselves stopped it. The man who was in the fore front to stop it was Raja Ram Mohan Roy and the last time I checked, he was a Hindu.

Your so called prophet, when he was fifty something, married a six year old Ayesha and had sex with her when she was nine years old. A grown up pedophile barbarian of fifty years old eloping with a six year old infant, How disgusting and revolting this is?

So shut the fuck up. To learn more about other barbaric practices of Islime, go to faithfreedom.org
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 08, 2006 12:00 AM
300
Aiit Tendulkar writes:

>> Sudhin Mukherjee, aka Meenu aka Bhaskar aka Sybil, actually, our resident retard,

I am inclined to agree with him on this point. Looks like Minu_Chaterjee is back…after her sex change operation. Her frenetic posting with familiar phrases with familiar misspellings such as “they are “loosing” amongst growing sections of Hindus….,” “The truth is systematically being suppressed..,” have a vague familiarity.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 08, 2006 12:00 AM
301
Minu_Chaterjee (Mukherkee) writes:

>> Its not about History.

It never was. That’s why the attempt to revise History books failed.

>>Its about emerging Culture of Hindus which Thapar/Witzel are unable to control. Its a viscious force, quite misunderstood by Marx himself.

This emerging culture will still have to reconcile itself with facts…..Thapar/Witzel’s forte.

>>Thapar/Witzel has no power to stop it. In fact, they themselves are product of the same period, though standing at the other side of the divide. So, donot worry. Thapar/Witzel's polemic is doomed for sure. By aligning with Islamists/Missionaries, they are accepting they lost the whole gamut of Hindu liberals. Quite unprecedented, that most educated people are blasting the so called "scientific history".

You need to stay off drugs long enough to be coherent.

>>I have seen House-wifes talking about Wizel (obviously cursing) during the week-end grocery Shopping. What more do you want?

Housewives decide on dinner menus not historical debates.

>>Witzel is now a infamous person amongst large sections of liberal Hindu americans.

If he is infamous, then by definition those Hindu-Americans (notice they aren’t Indian-Americans; they who insist on others to choose between their religion and country. Looks like they made their choice) are not liberals.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 08, 2006 12:00 AM
302
Abhishek writes:

>>...If something like this stupid is even attempted to put into children books i am vehemently opposed to such edits.

It was attempted and rejected.

>>I dont know what the edits are and would now like to know about the whole issue and get into the crux of matter.

You are a day late and a dollar short.

>>But the venom that this book from "The True History and the Religion of India" flows is striking.

Your naivete is particularly charming.

>>I cannot even imagine that if HEF actually supports a book like this then how can they put up a good enough literature for history of hinduism.

They are interested in neither history nor Hinduism. They’re interested only in a political platform along with gullible twits who respond with Pavlovian salivation every time “Hinduism” bell is rung.

>>...looks like there are people trying to ascribe themselves to being hindus but have nothing even remotely hindu about themselves.

or remotely intelligent

>>I think this is the precise reason why they failed. They did not have a better picture of hinduism and i guess they will keep failing, if they continue on this path.

I can practically guarantee that failure.

>>There was a poster who posted some photograph of people involved in this edits also. I personally know them and used to meet them in Sunnyvale temple. I think that there view of hinduism is not correct and that they should change there view towards society and hinduism.

Fat chance.

>>I now somehow believe that maybe this is a hindutva inspired agenda rather than a genuine effort to give better representation to hinduism in california textbooks and that is why maybe it failed.

Now you are catching on.

>>The civil society within hindus should stand up and ask for edits and not some inspired groups who have a very different interpretation of Hinduism.

That would be a welcome change.

>>But the reality that hit my head was that HEF does not look to be a great organisation and looks like the book called "The True History of the Religion of India" is anything but true and is full of whining and persecution complex regarding everything that other people have done to attack hinduism. This is not my hinduism and I completely reject it and if HEF has to work towards better representation of hinduism then it has to do more work.

Your intuition does you credit.

>>My frank and honest reply on the issue. It should be taken in the correct context and also in a proper way so that reforms within this section arrives and they can take a better fight with a broader view of hinduism the next time it happens again.

There is no next fight. Any proposal that even has a whiff of enthusiasm from the Chaddis will get a proctological exam and a negative presumption out of the starting gate. Thanks to the efforts of by Kalyanaraman, Vishal Agrawal and assorted rabblerousers.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 08, 2006 12:00 AM
303
Fudgepak writes:

>>Naheed, you still havn't answered my question directly, I just need a simple answer 'country' or 'Islam' from you so answer me without quoting lengthy passages from Quran, if you have to choose between your country and Islam, what would you choose and give priority to? Answer is either 'country' or 'Islam' so do try to give me a simple, straight forward answer.

I wouldn’t answer Fudgepak’s question until he answers it himself. What choice does he make between his country and his religion? What’s his priority in a simple straight forward answer? If there is no contradiction between his religion and the country, then why should it be for others? If he insists otherwise that makes him a self-serving sociopath.

For your future reference, in logic, it is known as fallacy of false choice. It implies the choice of one necessarily requires the rejection of the other....like train travel from Delhi to Calcutta precludes air travel.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 08, 2006 12:00 AM
304
OLD Mr.Smelly says:
"If he is infamous, then by definition those Hindu-Americans (notice they aren’t Indian-Americans; they who insist on others to choose between their religion and country. Looks like they made their choice) are not liberals."
>> Look at the infantile logic. A hindu is not liberal because he opposes witzel's gibberish!! LOL!! Look at the assumptions the clown makes.
Apparently the goat never heard that "assumption is the mother of all fuck UPs".
SC
TN, USA
Mar 08, 2006 12:00 AM
305
Ari Saja writes:

>>I won't deny that I KNOW "chaddis" –

It’s tough to deny knowing yourself.

>>but your co-idiots have always had a knack of attacking the wrong people.

We are all congenital risk takers.

>>Nah! No danger of THAT happening. I looked down the list of 146 "South Asia Scholars". No surprise. Not ONE real researcher or teacher of any merit there. All semi-literates scratching each other's behinds at some lousy 6th-rate (not 6th grade which would be more sophisticated) Overhead-Eating service department of 10th rate colleges.

Makes your defeat at the hands of such nobodies particularly humiliating, don’t it?

>>Sorry, none of those would get admission as grad students in any place that I would even consider.

You must be pretty selective in which cafeteria you serve fries.

>>The best thing we have going for us is your continuing bleating about "Hindutva" and "chaddis".

Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 08, 2006 12:00 AM
306
Full Moon must be out in Wonderville tonight. A full-scale rant in progress...

Sorry to disappoint you, Old Mac. I have no interest in the textbook issue at all. American teachers and students are ignorant today and will be ignorant tomorrow, and anyway, changing middle school texts is pointless when the College texts are pornographic or worse, and taught by Communists.

My interest is strictly in exposing your kind, which is happening very nicely, thank you, through forums like this one. Read the 50 (FIFTY!!) pages of comment on Witzel/Thapar, and enjoy the "fame" that they have got themselves.

I couldn't have wished for any better. What next for the Famous Duo? Paint "PLEASE SPIT HERE!" on their butts and stand outside Mumbai Grand Central Station? Or at Wonderville International Airport , Flea Market and Antique Shoppe?

As for my being "chaddi" (I doubt very much whether you know what that means, you being a Sanskrit Scholar and all..), thanks for the certificate. I'll add that to the other party/religious/organizational affiliations I've been awarded by other e-idiots.

The fact remains: What calls itself the "South Asia Faculty" mob is devoid of any competence in anything other than rabble-rousing.

As for "winning", sure, sure, it's a big "win" for college professors to manage to get the lay public made enough to demand that you be kicked out and the textbooks in your field be written by someone literate. To get a reprieve by bribing the idiots on the State Board of Education, yeah, that's "victory" all right! Sure, sure!!! DO celebrate!
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 08, 2006 12:00 AM
307
Ari Saja writes:

>>Sorry to disappoint you, Old Mac. I have no interest in the textbook issue at all.

Is that why you took the effort to sometime resembling prose under the title "Railroading in Sacramento"? Truth isn't your forte either.

>>My interest is strictly in exposing your kind,

My kind are the ones who will spank you every time you pipe up.

>>As for my being "chaddi"

You are short on fabric for long pants, short on ability and short on morals.

>>As for "winning", sure, sure, it's a big "win" for college professors to manage to get the lay public made enough to demand that you be kicked out and the textbooks in your field be written by someone literate.

short on coherence

>>To get a reprieve by bribing the idiots on the State Board of Education, yeah, that's "victory" all right! Sure, sure!!! DO celebrate!

short on reality. sour grapes anyone?
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 08, 2006 12:00 AM
308
Senile goat goves us one more "potent" opinion:
"short on coherence"
I'm gonna die laughing!! C O H E R E N C E and all...Such flatulence from a goat that cannot even comprehend a simple write up, forget articulation....!!
SC
TN, USA
Mar 08, 2006 12:00 AM
309
Naheed

tell me, dont you guys believe that Mohammed is the last Prophet and there would be no more prophets after him (that is what Mohammed is supposed to have claimed)? Or that the contents of the Quran are the words of Allah that have been revealed to Mohammed (since you have corrected me, he is supposed to have received the revelations through Gabriel)? And that he was taken to Heaven in a golden dome?

So, are these backed by facts? I would think these are more a matter of faith, rather than fact.

About the 72 virgins & suicide bombings - aren't they part of your holy book - they may be the basis of acts of a few deviants, but are they not part of your book?
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Mar 08, 2006 12:00 AM
310
Oh God..... here we go again with lengthy posts about the book. My friend, I have not read it, nor do I intend too.

And yes, I pick up stuff from the media, the web and other sources - just as you do when you quote the Gita or Manu Smriti etc.

Anyway, there were two parts to my response: one was with respect to facts and about verifying them that you have cleverly evaded.

On the second one - about civilisations - you have managed to post a lot.

>>>You have posted:

Suicide is forbidden. "O ye who believe!... [do not] kill yourselves, for truly Allah has been to you Most Merciful. If any do that in rancour and injustice, soon shall We cast him into the Fire..." (Qur'an 4:29-30).

Who has introduced the [do not ] into this phrase? I mean, you remove this, the entire meaning of the phrase changes.

It can be inferred from this that "the person who kills himself will be cast into Fire only if its done in rancour and injustice".

You also quote "And do not kill anyone which Allâh has forbidden, except for a just cause"

So, who decides what is a just cause, what is rancour and injustice?

Finally, you say "So if someone commits suicide he is not a fundamentalist Muslim, rather he is an ignorant and deviated Muslim."

Yes, but this buffoon who is blowing himself up is doing it in your religion's name. And the number of such buffoons is increasing exponentially every day. And that has become a part of "your civilisation". Whether you like it or not, people link these actions with your religion - just like people link Sati to Indian civilisation though the practice was followed only by the Rajputs (as someone already pointed out in this forum) and that in the last 100 years there has been only 1 case of Sati. But Islamist bombs keep going off everyday.
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Mar 08, 2006 12:00 AM
311
Naheed

you write >>>>"Neither you have read anything about Islam, nor do u intend to read.........so it's better for you to keep yr mouth shut instead of spewing venom against Islam and Muslims."

When you get your head out of the sand, you may notice that there are a lot of Muslims (deviant as you may label them) blowing up people and cities or threatening to do so. And they are doing this in the name of Islam.

So, no matter what your book says or what you may scream from roof-tops that Islam is a peaceful religion, the fact of the matter is that the followers of this religion (again deviants) are causing a lot of angst across the world.

No, I will not keep my mouth shut. Keeping quiet is the privilege that your liberals across the world have taken to. All they chant is 'Islam is a peaceful religion'.

Also, weren't you spewing venom on Hinduism about Sati and Dowry - when Sati was followed by only one community in India and that too has stopped a long time back.

Let's take a score - case of Sati in India in last 100 years 1 (for your sake I will even say "officially recorded")

Number of incidents where Islamists blew themselves and others up in the name of their religion - countless (even if we make that last 10 years and not last 100 years).

Since you are so convinced about the peaceful and true nature of your religion, why dont you go and preach that to your "deviants"? The world opinion about your religion is based on the actions of these "deviants". If they are transformed and behave in the manner your religion is supposed to prescribe, then automatically the world opinion would transform.

There's no point in posting lengthy quotes from the book here. It would not alter any world opinion. Non-believers will be Non-believers. Go out and transform your fellow believers.

Again, I draw your attention to your original posts about "verifying facts". Why are you evading that issue and going back to lengthy posts?
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Mar 08, 2006 12:00 AM
312
Naheed (in case you didn't see my post or I overlooked your reply):

>>Only a fool will accept other peoples views without checking the facts.
You mean like FOSA and FOIL cadre which was paraded at CA SBE last week complaining that they were "forced to eat dead animals for thousand years"? I mean if they had an ounce of brains between their ears, they'd have either figured a way to "eat animals live" or say something meaningful rather than make fool of themselves by reading notes passed to them by Gera and Rajagopal types. Right?



>>>First learn to become a good human being rather then talking about the

Now you are speaking. Good. But if I understand correctly, to be a good human one has to speak the truth without mudding facts.

No be a good human and tell me the truth - which of the 150+ edits in CA text book requires kids to read that idols drink milk (as you state) or age of universe was trillion years old (as Witzel states)? Here's the entire list if you don't have access to it


http://jitnasa.india-fo.../Critique-WitzelCRP.pdf


Or you can read the FOSA version too. Or have Witzel or Thappar mail you one. Or go to CA board website. Any version you wish, but point me to the edits you and Witzel are braying here about.

Would it be right to say that you have not read the edits requested. Neither has Witzel of that I'm sure too and he's evaded a direct question on that at Harvard citing a law suit which is NOT listed in any court of United States of America - till date. Yes, you and or Witzel is free to correct me or call me a liar on this with proof showing otherwise.

On a side note, Witzel, Thappar (and you?) parroting "historical accuracy" have yet to prove that burning bushes can speak or on Mohd could take shorthand notes while angel Gabriel spoke directly to him or for that matter virgins give birth.

Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 08, 2006 12:00 AM
313
Ari:

I would say that that stinky old mac who took time to read your article is barking up the wrong tree, but that is his natural voice, so please ignore. He likes to discuss people and websites without getting into the issue. Really orginial "Allahs for destorying India" FOSA characteristic.

We shouldn't hold against his behavior; please realize it was caused by childhood trauma; his FOSA friends probabily spanked his 'chaddi'-less behind when he fell on his head and broke the cement. Could explain his fixation with chaddis. Imagine walking around with "Allah destroy India" signs without any chaddi. If size of pea-brain is any indicator based on his post, one shudders to imagine this guy chaddi-less.
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 08, 2006 12:00 AM
314
Srinivas,

"Honor killings" muslims and not Sati is the number one concern around the world today. If you don't know what "Honor killings" is just google for "Honor killings" and "Muslims" and you'll get an idea.
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 09, 2006 12:00 AM
315
Sir,

Dr. Romila Thapar's diatribe against people advocating revisions in California's textbooks is understandable. After all, Dr. Thapar is one of the leading lights of the incestuos, mutual-admiration society made up of foreign Indologists and Indian historians of the JNU school. It is only to be expected that Dr. Thapar will fight tooth and nail, with appropriate airs of injured innocence, against any other perspective of Indian history. However, what puzzles me is why your publication-- one of the well-known defenders of free speech and minority opinions-- would choose not to invite a contrasting view on its pages, or even, its website. Dr. Thapar and her ilk have had far too many opportunities to propagate their jaundiced view of Indian history. It's time we had a real debate.


Sincerely,
Rohit Singh
Cambridge, USA
Rohit Singh
xxx, USA
Mar 09, 2006 12:00 AM
316
Linguists and Historians (like W & T) cannot come into terms with numbers because they perhaps dont have even basic mathematics/science background.

The following article in 2002 reported professors from Princeton whose research was tending to agree with the common belief of "Hinduism".


http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3077357/


W & T should rather focus on outlandish, narrow minded colonialist history and fantasies rather than to meddle with theories, facts that they dont understand.

Prabhu Bharathan
Phoenix, United States
Mar 09, 2006 12:00 AM
317
Naheed posts:

"Neither you have read anything about Islam, nor do u intend to read.........so it's better for you to keep yr mouth shut instead of spewing venom against Islam and Muslims.

Also you have said that ".......Who has introduced the [do not ] into this phrase? I mean, you remove this, the entire meaning of the phrase changes...."

No one has introduced it. Quran is in Arabic, this is just the translation. I am posting the translation again. You can check the translation of the entire Quran in english on the web at :



http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/



O you who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves unjustly except it be a trade amongst you, by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves (nor kill one another). Surely, Allâh is Most Merciful to you. (An-Nisa 4:29)"


Who gives a shiite on this forum, Naheed? You are here purely to spew hate against Hindus. Be a dear. Take a mirror and go admire your Muslimness, and make a few more posters saying: "Allah will destory Terrist USA and India. Osama is our HERROW. We Are All ShiiteHeads." Don't waste our time here. If you are Indian, you are a damned communalist. But of course you are not. You posted that message during the Prayer Hour, you moron. No Muslim would have done that. So you're probably a kafir, or you're Kaleem Kawaja the DC-based riot-inciter who brags that he calls the Lucknow rioters on his cellphone.

Anyway, this discussion is on how textbooks deal with Hinduism in California. No one here, sorry to repeat, gives a shiite about Islam or Allah or the Prophet Bombhead, Pis be Upon his Ass.
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 09, 2006 12:00 AM
318
Sridhar writes:

>>I would say that that stinky old mac who took time to read your article is barking up the wrong tree,

Tremendous writing skill

>>but that is his natural voice, so please ignore. He likes to discuss people and websites without getting into the issue.

If you can get into your pants that would be a miracle.

>>We shouldn't hold against his behavior; please realize it was caused by childhood trauma; his FOSA friends probabily spanked his 'chaddi'-less behind when he fell on his head and broke the cement.

What literary genius!!

>>Could explain his fixation with chaddis. Imagine walking around with "Allah destroy India" signs without any chaddi. If size of pea-brain is any indicator based on his post, one shudders to imagine this guy chaddi-less.

is it because you don't quite measure up?
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 09, 2006 12:00 AM
319
Bharatan writes:

>>Linguists and Historians (like W & T) cannot come into terms with numbers because they perhaps dont have even basic mathematics/science background.

Is there a requirement for Linguists and Historians to come to terms with numbers to tell excel at their crafts? Such tendentious connections, common in Chaddi Historiography and general thinking, are why it's not much of an intellectual threat.

>>The following article in 2002 reported professors from Princeton whose research was tending to agree with the common belief of "Hinduism".


http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3077357/


It tends to agree with squat. A four year old speculative theory that has no takers among cosmologists and its tendentious connection with the mysticism of an unrelated field is enough for this numbuts to disregard mutually reinforcing evidence from disparate fields of concrete knowledge.

>>W & T should rather focus on outlandish, narrow minded colonialist history and fantasies rather than to meddle with theories, facts that they dont understand.

Speculative theories in cosmology will go long ways towards describing, clarifying and explaining Indian History.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 09, 2006 12:00 AM
320
"Speculative theories in cosmology will go long ways towards describing, clarifying and explaining Indian History."

Oh, no! NOT unless they agree with the Communist Manifesto and the BCE 4004 Creation of the World, and the Miraculous Conception. Gotta keep those textbooks HISTORICALLY ACCURATE, don't we?
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 09, 2006 12:00 AM
321
These days every other person in Chandigarh seems to be vying, rather crazily, with each other while applying for HUDA (Haryana Urban Development Authority) plots. The reason for this craze, I am told, is that a few ‘lucky’ ones, chosen throw a lottery draw, would get a minimum premium of Rs. 25,000,00 or so.

Would this ‘premium’ be a lawful transaction in white? If not, what measures the government is making to check such kinds of acts that help in generating black-money that already is hampering the real economic growth of our country.

Since a majority of the applicants are not able to deposit even a small percentage of the stipulated earnest money on their own, they are raising loans from banks. This clearly indicates that their sole aim is to participate in a ‘satta’ that is being promoted by the State government in connivance with the banks who would be the chief beneficiaries.

Regards,

Yours sincerely,

balvinder
362 , 48a
chandigarh
ph; 2630904


balvinder
chandigarh, India
Mar 09, 2006 12:00 AM
322
The article by Romila Thapar seems reasonable, as it should, coming from a person who has a lot of experience writing and supporting positions that are not necessarily supported by clear evidence. Here is my two-bit to the debate.

First, by connecting the debate in the US to the debate in India, Romila Thapar is displaying her own tendencies to take the battle against RSS to the US, it is NOT the RSS that is taking the hindutva battle to the US. For the readers, the fight in the US over textbooks is NOT really about the facts in India history. History mostly has facts that have multiple interpretations. More and more such interpretations are now being tested by developments in new streams of research such as genetics. Note that historians like Romila Thapar have little knowledge of such newer fields. In their defence, this is not unusual. It is difficult for any researcher to develop command of new fields as he/she gets older. Coming back to the main issue, the dispute in the US is about whether Hinduism should be presented in a similar manner as other religions, i.e., whether only positive aspects of Hinduism should be presented or both negative and positive aspects should be highlighted. Many people will support presentation of the best known theories, both positive and negative for hindus. I would agree with this position. However, I would also want other religions to be treated similarly in textbooks. Therefore, the textbooks should present the negatives of Christianity and Islam as well. This has not been done. In fact, all the negatives about these two religions are suppressed. The fight is about fair treatment of all religions. Sixth grade students cannot understand the merits/demerits of different theories, they take things presented to them as facts. While we should not support presentation of outrageous claims in textbooks, we must also not support presentation of disputed material that might lead these students to feel that only Hinduism has evils, and the rest of the religions are clean. In the interest of fairness, either all religions should be presented in a balanced way, or none. To be continues...

Siddharth
Houston, USA
Mar 09, 2006 12:00 AM
323
Cont...

Romila Thapar etc try to present themselves as fair and balanced. My question to them is, why are they not protesting the biased (since it presents only positive aspects) portrayal of, say Islam in the very same textbooks? India has the second largest population of Muslims. Therefore, just as they arrogate themselves the right to correct the wrong portrayal of Hinduism all over the world, why don't they share their knowledge of Isalm in India and correct similar wrongs about Islam in the US, particularly California textbooks? Should't they show an equal passion in correcting these wrongs as well? After all, Indians have as much right to talk about Islam as Hinduism. No, they will never do so. After all, their knwoledge of history is colored by their politics of history. In a sentence, for them Hinduism is bad, others are good. Don't listen to what they say, see what they do. In her article, she sgrees that in some ways Hinduism has been treated unfairly in the texbooks in California so far. However, I do not recall Romila Thapar ever protesting about that based on her facts. Never. It is only now she remembers her credentials as a historian to stop a wrong that might happen. Never mind correcting wrongs that have been happening. Its not her business becasaue they were against Hindus and correcting them did not add to her secular credentials.

Politics over history is not new. When a person runs out of arguments, he/she attacks the opponents credentials. This is an unscientific way to argue your case. The case against the Hindu groups fighting for textbook revision should be based on legitimate arguments alone, even if all the organizations supporting the textbook revisions are hardcore RSS supporters. The affiliations of these organizations has little to do with the merits of their arguments. If you can refute them point by point, please do so, otherwise shut up.
Siddharth
Houston, USA
Mar 09, 2006 12:00 AM
324
Speaking of "indology scholars", here are some outrageous stuff attributed to those eminent scholars.


http://www.sabha.info/d...sc/aif/indologists.html


Farmer's PhD thesis is hilarious.
Sriram
Chennai, India
Mar 09, 2006 12:00 AM
325
Ha ha ha,

Who is having the last laugh now? I hope Randi Thapar and the Nazi Witzel reads this and hung their head in shame. Oh I forgot, they don’t have any.

And the christist’s favorite altar boy OLD MAC, the sun light as finally has been shown on you and your master’s disgusting antics.

Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 07:23:20 -0000
Subject: CA State Board's Final decision: 08March06
Contrary to pompous claims being made by Professor Witzel, it is his
side that has been 'defeated'.

The board passed the final motion today to accept the document
recommended for approval on Feb 27 but with FOUR amendments:

1. On One Supreme Being: President Glee Johnson directed that
wherever the words 'gods' or 'goddesses'
have been used in the texbooks, they will be replaced either
with 'deities', OR with 'Gods' and 'Goddesses' (with upper case G).
This establishes that the Board now recognizes the fact that in Hindu
Dharma, we believe in One Supreme Being that manifests in many forms.
It is false propaganda on the part of FOSA etc to say that VF/HEF
were trying to inject 'monotheism' into Hinduism, when a cursory look
of the textbooks would indicate that they already acknowledge the
fact that Hinduism talks of one Brahman and that various 'gods'
and 'goddesses' are 'parts' or 'aspects' of that Brahman (many
textbooks actually have entire sections explaining the concept of
Brahman). This amendment proposed by Dr Johnson, and the accompanying
edits merely reinforce the existing narrative of these textbooks, and
also highlight the best of Hindu traditions.
2. AIT as a Controversial theory: President Glee Johnson directed all
publishers to add the note that AIT is a controversial theory that is
not accepted by many scholars.
3. Respect for Hindu Holy Books: All sentences
where 'poems', 'stories' etc are used for the Vedas will modified and
the word 'scripture' will be used instead.
4. Resolving Contradictions: Glee Johnson acknowledged that there
were contradictions on the recommendations made by the Board, and
these will be resolved. From the indications available from her in
the form of media interviews etc., (which I need not elaborate upon
because we should wait for their official final document), this may
result in approximately 12-15 additional edits resolved in an
acceptable/favorable manner. This should take care of a lot of
material in the textbooks that unnecessarily relate the origin of
Hinduism and varna system to the hypothetical Aryan invasion theory.

In sum, Dr Bajpai had earlier accepted more than 90% Hindu edits.
Witzel led CRP accepted only 37%. On Feb 27, the SBE accepted
completely or adequately 70-75% of Hindu edits (depending on how one
counts them). And finally, with these four amendments, we expect that
overall up to 80-82% of Hindu edits will be accepted (again, the
range indicates that the actual acceptance percentage involves
subjectivity in calculations).
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 09, 2006 12:00 AM
326
Contd...

So it is clear who has 'lost', and who has 'won'. I will do an
analysis to show later that Witzel's claim notwithstanding, the
coverage women rights and Dalit rights in these textbooks have not
improved to any significant extent due to his intervention. If
anything, his intervention has robbed Emperor Ashoka of his famed
religious tolerance, and has allowed the textbooks to retain
caricaturist and innaccurate definitions of Ayurveda, Yoga etc.
Contrary to his claims that he has defended the Dalits, I have shown
that he accepted 6/7 Hindu edits related to untouchability. Likewise,
of the 3 edits related to women, he accepted 1 completely (which
removes the negativity from one book completely), and 2 with
modifications (that considerably tone down the original text anyway).
Hindu edits relating to women rights actually did not touch most of
the material of the textbooks anyway. A complete correction of these
books was impossible in the first place due to the restrictive nature
of edit rules. Finally, Witzel CRP rejected one of the edits of HEF
but agreed to a text according to which the 'regional languages of
India are derived from Sanskrit'. This robs the independent status of
Tamil (HEF edit 44) and it is a pity that 'scholars' have overlooked
this important fact.

It appears that the Board became acutely aware that the group of
Dalits representing even Evangelist and Sikh organizations were
actually trying to back-project today's issues into India's past.
This is why it has decided to stick to its decision to approve 6/7
edits related to untouchability (and thereby approve Dr Witzel's
agreement with Dr Bajpai also in these 6 cases), and has mandated the
use of the word class for 'varna'. This group of Dalits came today as
well and delivered in many cases the SAME speeches that they had made
last week.

I would like to thank dozens of Hindus who laboriously and with great
dexterity, provided copies of authoritative books and journal
articles to the Board members very promptly, and this surely made
them decide in our favor, despite the innuendos of politicians
masquerading as academics. As a Hindu, I would also like to thank
more than 100 academics that wrote to the Board in our favor
repeatedly, even as recently as this week. Their dignified and
scholarly letters elaborating on academic matters related contentious
matters in this controversy were in marked contrast to the rhetorical
garbage that the Board received from the other side. Credit is also
due to the hundreds of parents who sent in their support to Hindu
edits to the Board. Per my information, more than 250 parents sent
their approval signatures in just the 10 days before the Feb 27
meeting. This demonstrates the extent of support in the community and
the fact that our opponents (whose names we see often in connection
with political activities) are a fringe group, despite their
characteristically high decibel campaign. Frank Pallone and Kumar
Barwe wrote in our support, as did many mainstream Indian American
organizations such as the National Federation of Indian Associations
(NFIA) to my knowledge.
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 09, 2006 12:00 AM
327
Contd....

Nevertheless, it should be noted that the fight was on our community
edits, and the opponents of Hindu Americans had nothing to lose. It
was a 'war of attrition' for us. Hence, anything less than 100%
acceptance of our edits is a loss to us. Therefore, I would fully
support the HAF in case they do decide to go with a lawsuit. The fact
does remain that the entire process was derailed by the gratuitous
intervention of a group academics, some of whom have made very
prejudiced remarks against our community. The Board should not have
been a party to this calumny, and even when they realized it finally,
it was already too late. The Board must officially acknowledge their
errors or must be made to acknowledge the same so that our community
is saved from discrimination on other states in future.

The speech of Steve Farmer today too was
very hilarious (worse than that of Feb 27), and the last laugh will
be made by someone else :-)

The Board members nicely stated that textbooks cannot be perfect, and
that parents will henceforth play an important role in educating the
teachers and their county officials. My personal recommendation is
for parents to approach their children's school teachers, and request
rejection of certain textbooks such as those of 4 publishers namely
McGraw Hill Glencoe, McGraw Hill MacMillan, Holt and OUP because
these are worst. Teacher's Curriculum Institute and Pearson-Prentice
Hall books are the best.

Alan Bersin acknowledged that the heritage and culture of India is
very rich, and no textbook could be perfectly correct in representing
our rich and diverse civilization. He stated (as did another Board
member), that the entire controversy made them learn a lot about
Hinduism, and I think we should thank HEF and VF for spreading
awareness of Dharma amongst the Board members. It is the light of
Dharma alone that can dispel the darkness of falsehool, and as the
national motto of India, quoting the Mundaka Upanishad, says -
'satyameva jayate' ('Truth alone triumphs').

Let us however take this controversy as just a beginning, because
justice and fairness in describing Hinduism in textbooks should be
the norm in all states of the great nation that we have chosen to
reside in. Those who are threatening that 'Texas will be a greater
mess 2 years from now', will face even tougher opposition there
because the Hindu American community of TX has already started
gearing up for quite some time now, and has been historically very
well organized for over a decade. In fact, CA Hindus should
acknowledge the very valuable help extended to us by them even in
this controversy.

Just two days ago, three of the greatest current scholars of Tamil
grammar in Tamil Nadu, India faxed a long handwritten letter to the
SBE supporting the efforts of HEF/VF. It is individual acts of love
such as these that has helped us tide this situation to a great
extent. But again, this is just a beginning, and we need to multiply
our efforts to spread awareness, and the light of Dharma so that each
community in this land of the free can enjoy their freedom, and
appreciate each other's heritage as if it were their own.

Sincerely,

Vishal Agarwal
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 09, 2006 12:00 AM
328
Well done, Mr Agarwal. A slap in the face for commie-witzel gang.
Narsing Gowd
Secunderabad, India
Mar 10, 2006 12:00 AM
329
Witless-Thapar Get Jhapad from Prof. Rosser: Part N

"Please update the information about me on your website. Perhaps, the broad spectrum of my interests and commitments does not jive with your narrow, negative view of me, but be brave and break the mold and add these links to reflect my other activities. Thank you very much.

All the best,
Yvette Rosser

PS On your web site I see that Hindu is a four letter word.

-------------
To whomever was cc’ed on this letter, thank you. An please note that South Asianists and Sanskrit scholars cannot flood the moats and raise the drawbridges to keep practicing Hindus at bay. There seems to be a fear in the Ivory Towers that the academic study of Hinduism is being high-jacked by Hindus. The key words to solve the dilemma are cooperation, collaboration, and respect.

Move over, the future is here. Cease and desist the arrogant, academic battle regalia and start the interactive dialogue.

All the best,
Yvette C. Rosser,
PhD – Curriculum and Instruction
MA & BA South Asian Studies

PS Undoubtedly, my email will bouch from the yahoogroups in which I am not a member such as Indo-Eurasian_research, RISA, and indology. In support of fairness, if members of those groups, who receive this reply to Prof. Witzel's letter, would please forward it to the group, I would be appreciative.

Thanks again!
Cheers!"
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 10, 2006 12:00 AM
330
Jhapad for Thapar Part N-1

"In addition, I am a founding member of The G M Syed Memorial Committee
http://
www.gmsyed.org/
Objectives:
• To educate the international community about G. M. Syed's message of non-violence, democracy, secularism, and the right to self-determination for Sindhis and other oppressed nations.

• To sponsor the following programs:
• Organize community outreach events to celebrate the life and work of G. M. Syed.
• Give awards recognizing the exceptional contributions of activists, scholars, and leaders who are striving to achieve peace and justice for the Sindhi nation, or who have promoted awareness about the Sindhi language, culture or people.
• Promote the teachings of G. M. Syed through the publication of reports, books, research articles, and other works, and the dissemination of these works on a website.
• Establish G. M. Syed Memorial Centers around the world.
• To advocate and support other organizations promoting human rights, religious tolerance, environmental responsibility, equal rights for women and religious minorities, as well as conflict resolution and peaceful initiatives in Sindh.

I am on the advisory board of the Baacha Khan Research Centre in Baacha Khan Markaz, Peshawar; and founder of the Badshah Khan Peace Initiative (BKPI), a worldwide movement to promote the life's teachings of Abdul Ghaffar Khan/Frontier Gandhi. The main priority of the BKPI is to correct the flaw in standard historical treatments of the Subcontinent, in which Badshah Khan has been expunged from history. Our goal is to amend the historical record so that he is included along side Mahatma Gandhi in our children's textbooks.

Friends at indiatruth.com, since you have taken the time to list my name, please be sure to include my other very important associations supportive of Pashtuns and Sindhis.

I am also cofounder of the International Day Without Violence:

http://www.infinityfoun..._pr/s_pr_peace_walk.htm


Additionally, instead of links under my name that lead to articles by others in which I am not even mentioned (duh, what it this?), please add links to my actual writings:

http://www.mssu.edu/pro...sia/tsa/VIN1/Rosser.htm

http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/s_es/s_es_rosse_EAA.htm
-----"
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 10, 2006 12:00 AM
331
Jhapad for Thapar Part N-2

"From: Yvette Rosser
Subject: Please note my other significant associations
To: info@indiantruth.com, press@indiantruth.com,

To the people who created the indiantruth.com web site,

I saw references about me on your website and I would ask you to please add links to my other significant associations:


http://www.pashtuninstitute.org/index.html


I am a founding member of The Global Pashtun Institute for Peace and Democracy, a nonprofit organization working for the realization of the following objectives:

* Support and strengthen peace, democracy and stability in Afghanistan initiated under the Bonn Process by the United Nations and the Coalition;
* Press for democratic, human rights and legal-administrative reforms in the Tribal Areas of Pakistan;
* Support and conduct non-partisan research, educational, and informational activities about the language, history, culture, economy and politics of the Pashtun people;
* Impart skills, training and education to the Pashtun youth to avoid their falling into the hands of extremists and militants propelled by obscurantist ideologies;
* Raise awareness about issues of ecological and environmental concerns to the Pashtun people and the international community;
* Improve human rights situation among Pashtuns, particularly women and children rights and;
* Increase international understanding of the language, culture, history and society of the Pashtuns."
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 10, 2006 12:00 AM
332
Jhapad for Witless Thapad Part N-3

"
While many of the revisions corrected inaccuracies, others sought to soften the language on polytheism, the caste system and the status of women. The Hindu Education Foundation and the Vedic Foundation contend the revisions are necessary to ensure that Hinduism is accurately described and not presented as inferior to Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

But critics, including various scholars, contend the groups are trying to put a Hindu spin on history and whitewash India's past. Each side accuses the other of deliberately distorting the truth.
----------------------------

In conclusion, I would like to share this observation:

I was stunned to read in his OutlookIndia.com article that Professor Witzel was the founder of the indiatruth.com website. It is a hodge-podge of slanderous assumptions that have no substance coming from nowhere and going down a nasty mud-slinging path that does not address issues but denigrates and negates. On the indiatruth website, Hindu is a four-letter-word.

My name is listed on the indiatruth.com website as some sort of conspiratorial murderess. I sent the following letter several times to the two email addresses associated with that ridiculous website and no one ever responded. It seemed as if whomever assembled the indiatruth.com website was intellectually challenged. I figured that they were a bunch of politicized cranks trying to smear those who are investigating alternative paradigms and/or are creating a milieu in which Hinduism is more accepted and better understood. Then in Outlook India Dr. Witzel wrote that he had founded that webpage. He is the crack?

Witzel twists the facts and makes spurious analogies... really rather frightening... He accuses the Hindus of North America of being Hiina (or lost and confused) and he uses "furious if not predictable slurs" against Hindus, such as "Nazi", "Hitler", "Racist", "Muslim hater", "Race Traitor", "Christian hater", "Creationist", and "obscurantist murders".

No one ever answered my letter to indiatruth, whom I dismissed as crack-pots who winnow information until they satisfied their dubious theories:"
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 10, 2006 12:00 AM
333
Jhapad for Thapar Part N-4

""Actually, I think we got a lot of things," said Sunnyvale resident Khanderao Kand, a member of the foundation. "They're going to correct a lot of the contradictions, clarify statements of the Hindu concept of deities, and add a statement about the Aryan invasion. So we've made some progress since last week."

Shalini Gera, a spokeswoman for the Coalition Against Communalism, which opposed many of the revisions, said her organization would reserve judgment on how the directives affected the wording in the textbooks.

But she said she was pleased overall with the board's action Wednesday, especially with its decision to change the wording of God and Goddesses to deities, which she said better reflects the diversity of beliefs within Hinduism.
Before the board's decision, Mihir Meghani, president of the Hindu American Foundation, said his organization was close to filing a lawsuit against the state seeking a detailed review of the board's approval process.

In a March 3 letter to board members, Deborah B. Caplan, an attorney with Olson, Hageland Fishburn retained by the Hindu American Foundation, said the foundation was extremely disappointed by a state subcommittee's decision to unanimously approve revised edits despite four hours of passionate debate among scholarsand the Indian diaspora regarding the interpretation of Indian history.

"It was apparent from the complete lack of deliberation, that the 'public hearing' portion of the meeting was a complete sham and that the critical decisions had been made in advance of that meeting," wrote Caplan, adding that it is her contention that all actions taken since the Dec. 2 Curriculum Commission meeting have been in violation of the law.

Meghani could not be reached after the Wednesday meeting for comment on whether the board's action may affect the Hindu American Foundation's decision to seek litigation.

Before the meeting, critics of the Hindu groups, including the Friends of South Asia and Coalition Against Communalism, held a news conference to publicize a letter from 17 state legislators urging the board to reject attempts by Hindu groups to sanitize gender and caste inequalities from ancient Indian history.

The board's decision is the culmination of 10 months of debate regarding the historical accuracy of textbooks about ancient India.
In late summer, the Texas-based Vedic Foundation and the Hindu Education Foundation sent hundreds of proposed revisions."
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 10, 2006 12:00 AM
334
Jhapad for Thapad Part N-5

"Significantly, though the narrative about Hinduism in secondary level textbooks has been full of errors and stereotypes for generations, at a public meeting with a Dharma group at Harvard, Professor Witzel admitted that this was the first time that he has involved himself in correcting the biased textbooks that have been full of mistakes for decades. Why didn’t he care? Please see:
http://www.mssu.edu/pro...sia/tsa/VIN1/Rosser.htm


The venomous attack mode that Professor Witzel employed precluded any collaboration. Rather than an alarmist professorial attack on Hindu-Americans, cooperation between practitioners and scholars would certainly be more productive in solving the glaring problems regarding how Hinduism is described in Junior High and High School textbooks. The bias and errors are pervasive.

Please see the following newspaper article for a different view-point:

Panel approves textbook changes
Hindu groups satisfied with corrections to Vedas, Aryan invasion wording
By Jonathan Jones, STAFF WRITER

http://www.insidebayarea.com/argus/ci_3584032


The state Board of Education voted Wednesday afternoon to adopt proposed revisions to the depiction of ancient India in sixth-grade history textbooks.
In approving the changes, the board rejected further review of the descriptions of women, the caste system and Hindu theology. But the board directed Tom Adams, executive director for the Curriculum Commission, to contact publishers to correct inconsistencies and change the wording with regard to the Vedas, the oldest and most sacred Hindu texts.

The board also instructed the commission to add lines in the textbooks stating that the Aryan invasion — the controversial theory that traces the roots of Hinduism to a migration of people from Central Asia — is disputed.
After the meeting, members of the Hindu Education Foundation expressed satisfaction that the board had made some concessions, though they did not accept all of the proposed revisions."
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 10, 2006 12:00 AM
335
Witless seen running langoti-less after Prof. Rosser exposes him as a liar: Jhapad for Thapar. Part N-6

"
The Hindu citizens who requested changes to their children’s textbooks did not ask that Hinduism be labeled a monotheistic religion. Hinduism is not monotheistic. We all know that. Monism is a more apt label…transcendent and pervasive. It is an error on Prof. Witzel's part as well as a great source of humor for him, when he says that HEF and VF asked that Hinduism be described as monotheistic. They did not.

All anyone has to do is read through the suggested edits, issued by the SBE, to see that the Hindu groups have never claimed that Hinduism is monotheistic. We all know that practicing Hindus believe there is one transcendent pervasive “God” behind the "multiple manifestations of the Infinite". You may call it polytheism in the Ivory Towers, but in their hearts, Hindus understand it as Monism--not polytheism or monotheism. Why persist in calling Hinduism polytheistic when it is really monistic?

2. Regarding the AIT, the Hindu parents did not ask that this theory be erased from the textbooks. To infer this is another error. As can be seen from the official documents published by the State Board of Education, HEF and VF only requested that another sentence be added which states “AIT is a controversial theory that is not accepted by many scholars.” Glee Johnson, the president of the SBE, directed all publishers to add that sentence. [more victory than "defeat", eh?]

The Aryan Invasion Theory is very controversial, and the textbooks should reflect the dynamism of changing historiographical paradigms. Since this issue has been bandied about, once and for all, please take note that the Hindus in California only requested that their children's textbooks include current historiographical research, and that they are multi-perspectival and inclusive. Ironically, Prof. Witzel wrote in Outlook India: "The Hindutva lobby will undoubtedly persist in their efforts even if they are stopped in California. The fact that there are very culturally biased and insensitive passages regarding Hinduism in many textbooks provides their alibi." [Kristallnacht anyone?] (Please note: I am Jewish, I am Hindu, I am Black, I am a Sufi... to go after my brother, you'll have to go through me first....)

3. Another important SBE approved change included:
In all sentences where 'poems', 'stories', and "myths" are used to describe the sacred texts of Hinduism, instead, as requested, they will be modified, and the word 'scripture' will be used.

4. Glee Johnson, the SBE president, acknowledged that there were contradictions on the recommendations made by the Board, and these will be resolved.

Re: Crushing Rhetoric:

Please note that Dr. Bajpai had earlier accepted more than 90% the Hindu edits. During his hostile intervention, Dr. Witzel accepted only 37%. However, on Feb 27, the SBE accepted completely or adequately 71-75% of Hindu edits. In sum, Dr. Witzel accepted only 46% of HEF edits whereas SBE has accepted 80%. Dr. Witzel accepted only 27% of VF edits whereas SBE has accepted 62%. Overall, Dr. Witzel accepted 37% Hindu American edits, but SBE has accepted 71%. Where is the "Crushing Defeat"? Entangled in rhetoric...
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 10, 2006 12:00 AM
336
Aiyyayyooo!!!!!

Clueless Witless seen running langoti-less after Prof. Rosser exposes him as a liar: Jhapad for Thapar. Part 1 = N-7

"From: Yvette Rosser
to Michael, indo_iranian, indologie ...

Dear Professor Witzel et al, (she should have said, "and all the other rats in the Nazi-Commie-Taliban Axis of Liars!)

Thank you for cc’ing your letter to me. I am returning the favor to point out that your math is fuzzy: over 70% of the edits requested by the Hindu educational foundations were approved. 70% is not a rout or a "Crushing Defeat"…30% is not a victory to gloat over. The changes that were approved were the ones that practicing Hindus felt were the most important, which included these four:

1. Wherever the words 'gods' or 'goddesses' are used in the textbooks, they will be replaced either with 'deities', or with 'Gods' and 'Goddesses' (with upper case G). This establishes that the Board now recognizes the fact that Hindus believe in one Supreme Being within and beyond creation... one God that manifests in many forms."
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 10, 2006 12:00 AM
337
Ooch! that slap to Witzel and his servant Farmer by Prof Rosser should have *really* hurt.
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 10, 2006 12:00 AM
338
Sridhar writes:

>>Ooch! that slap to Witzel and his servant Farmer by Prof Rosser should have *really* hurt.

At least they have a coping mechanism.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 10, 2006 12:00 AM
339
Siddharth continues....

>>Romila Thapar etc try to present themselves as fair and balanced. My question to them is, why are they not protesting the biased (since it presents only positive aspects) portrayal of, say Islam in the very same textbooks?

They chose not to interject themselves in areas that are not their fields or concern.

>>India has the second largest population of Muslims. Therefore, just as they arrogate themselves the right to correct the wrong portrayal of Hinduism all over the world, why don't they share their knowledge of Isalm in India and correct similar wrongs about Islam in the US, particularly California textbooks?

Irrelevant to the proposed edits.

>>Should't they show an equal passion in correcting these wrongs as well? After all, Indians have as much right to talk about Islam as Hinduism. No, they will never do so.

Irrelevant to the proposed edits.

>>After all, their knwoledge of history is colored by their politics of history. In a sentence, for them Hinduism is bad, others are good. Don't listen to what they say, see what they do. In her article, she sgrees that in some ways Hinduism has been treated unfairly in the texbooks in California so far. However, I do not recall Romila Thapar ever protesting about that based on her facts. Never. It is only now she remembers her credentials as a historian to stop a wrong that might happen. Never mind correcting wrongs that have been happening. Its not her business becasaue they were against Hindus and correcting them did not add to her secular credentials.

Irrelevant to the proposed edits.

>>Politics over history is not new. When a person runs out of arguments, he/she attacks the opponents credentials.

Like the credentials of Witzel, Thapar, Wolpert, Farmer?

>>This is an unscientific way to argue your case.

Worse. It’s unpersuasive and costly in terms of credibility of the arguer’s opinion.

>>The case against the Hindu groups fighting for textbook revision should be based on legitimate arguments alone, even if all the organizations supporting the textbook revisions are hardcore RSS supporters.

It was. And they were defeated.

>>The affiliations of these organizations has little to do with the merits of their arguments. If you can refute them point by point, please do so, otherwise shut up.

The description of the affiliations explains why such hare-brained revisions would be proposed by those people who look normal on the outside to the eye.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 10, 2006 12:00 AM
340
Siddharth writes:

>>The article by Romila Thapar seems reasonable, as it should, coming from a person who has a lot of experience writing and supporting positions that are not necessarily supported by clear evidence. Here is my two-bit to the debate.

Here's hoping its worth more than 2 bits.

>>First, by connecting the debate in the US to the debate in India, Romila Thapar is displaying her own tendencies to take the battle against RSS to the US, it is NOT the RSS that is taking the hindutva battle to the US.

You are the expert at “supporting positions”..not “supported by clear evidence.” The HEF and VF are Hinduvta outfits with shared leaderships and clear association with the U.S. affiliate of RSS.

>>For the readers, the fight in the US over textbooks is NOT really about the facts in India history.

The hindutva types’ lack of interest in facts is not exactly a thundering revelation.

>>History mostly has facts that have multiple interpretations.

But there are not equally valid interpretations. Other facts limit the extent of free-style interpretations of anyone fact.

>>More and more such interpretations are now being tested by developments in new streams of research such as genetics. Note that historians like Romila Thapar have little knowledge of such newer fields. In their defence, this is not unusual.

Correct. Thapar and Witzel need not know the intricacies of M130 (Haplogroup C), M174 (Haplogroup D) or M20 (Haplogroup L). They only need to tap the expertise of the specialists such as zoologists, botanists, geneticists, archeologists, etc. That is why Spencer Wells’ work on genetic migrations reinforces the Aryan Invasion/Immigration at a broad level.

>>It is difficult for any researcher to develop command of new fields as he/she gets older.
Or narrow, technical, linear thinking, amateur, enthusiasts to draw on and integrate bewildering number of independent disciplines to reconstruct the past.

>>Coming back to the main issue,

mercifully!!!

>>the dispute in the US is about whether Hinduism should be presented in a similar manner as other religions, i.e., whether only positive aspects of Hinduism should be presented or both negative and positive aspects should be highlighted.

The dispute was about whether the proposed edits were supported by evidence adequate by academic standards

>>Many people will support presentation of the best known theories, both positive and negative for hindus. I would agree with this position. However, I would also want other religions to be treated similarly in textbooks. Therefore, the textbooks should present the negatives of Christianity and Islam as well. This has not been done. In fact, all the negatives about these two religions are suppressed. The fight is about fair treatment of all religions. Sixth grade students cannot understand the merits/demerits of different theories, they take things presented to them as facts. While we should not support presentation of outrageous claims in textbooks, we must also not support presentation of disputed material that might lead these students to feel that only Hinduism has evils, and the rest of the religions are clean. In the interest of fairness, either all religions should be presented in a balanced way, or none.

Irrelevant to the proposed edits.
Old Mac
Wonderville, United States
Mar 10, 2006 12:00 AM
341
I am waiting for OLD MAC, resident representative of the IER and Harvard University and FOIL, to actually post something original. u no, instead, of starting with:

"XYZ writes" and then breaking wind with some incredibly brilliant one-liner that would amaze anyone with IQ below 5. I suppose this is what happens at those FOIL Communist Comrades Orgies that they advertise in the San Francisco hotels.

"Booze, babes, brilliant one-liners"

But wait! did I say "original" and "Old Mac" in the same post? How unforgiveable of me! These Super Historian Indology Teachers make a career out of writing theses copying other dead bigots' words. Like Fartmer, whose thesis is 397 pages, of which 396 are plagiarized from some Pico or Arial or Times New Roman or other typeface, and the other page is his theorem on how All Numbers Can Be Obtained From One By Multiplication.
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 10, 2006 12:00 AM
342
OLD MAC Says

>>> That is why Spencer Wells’ work on genetic migrations reinforces the Aryan Invasion/Immigration at a broad level.

New Genetic Studies Caste Doubt On Aryan Invasion Theory


Written by newkerala.com
January 14, 2006

NEW DELHI, INDIA, Two new genetic studies have disputed long-held beliefs that pastoral central Asian people brought agriculture to India and contributed heavily to the genetic make-up of modern Indian populations. The central Asian people who migrated to India included the Aryans who began arriving around 3,500 years ago. The studies by scientists in Calcutta with colleagues in other countries might force historians to revise current ideas about the impacts of migrations from central Asia beginning about 8,000 years ago on India.

A study by scientists at the Central Forensic Science Laboratory in Calcutta has revealed that most present-day Indians are the descendants of early humans who began to arrive in India about 60,000 years ago. It suggests that modern Indians do not owe much genetic makeup to central Asians who arrived much later. The findings do lend support to the migration of people from central Asia into India. "Although we did find genetic signatures from central Asian populations in Indian communities, there are not enough (signatures) to prove large-scale mixture with local populations," research team leader Vijendra Kashyap told The Telegraph.

An independent genetic study by Partha Mazumder at the Indian Statistical Institute in Calcutta with colleagues at Stanford University and elsewhere has found that the majority of genetic signatures among men in India are older than 10,000 years. The study of 1,100 men from 36 ethnic groups in India, 8 in Pakistan and 18 from the southeast Asian region has indicated that many of the genetic signatures have arisen in India and predate the arrival of the Indo-Europeans and their expansion in India. "The genetic contribution from central Asia has not been as large as generally believed," Mazumder said. His study has also indicated that the genetic input of people who might have brought agriculture into India from West Asia has been limited.
RSK
LA, United States
Mar 10, 2006 12:00 AM
343
Outlook Vinod Mehta - what happened?
Can't get Witzel and Thappar to shell enough $$


http://www.ptinews.com/...2B004488C6?Opendocument
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 10, 2006 12:00 AM
344
Ari Saja,
Old MAC is done. Cooked well done. Exteremely well done. There's no beef here. Hence look for regurgitated FOSA memos being replicated here.
Seems like IER in it's full glory.
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Mar 11, 2006 12:00 AM
345
I see that Harvard Board member and CA Sec. of Education Alan Bersin, is under investigation for fraud.

Seems to happen to anyone who mistakes Witzel for a human.
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 11, 2006 12:00 AM
346
Here you go:

The first of many fraud investigations involving Harvard and the commie-Saudi funding links of Witzel, Thapar, and the FOSA


http://www.signonsandie...10-9999-7m10bersin.html


"Former superintendent's use of private fund probed
By Helen Gao
and Maureen Magee
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITERS

March 10, 2006

Weeks before Alan Bersin's state school board confirmation hearing, San Diego district trustees will consider the confidential findings of an eight-month investigation into how the former superintendent spent a private fund dedicated to education.

The probe, being handled by a Los Angeles attorney with experience in fraud investigations, has identified some questionable expenditures by Bersin, a school board member said. The district allocated $75,000 to hire outside legal counsel to review and expand on an internal audit. "

Bersin is one of the Trustees of Harvard University, which of course shows the standard of "trustiness" of the place that bred Kissinger.
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 11, 2006 12:00 AM
347
Earlier this week, DumbkopfenFuehrer Witzel sent out an email whining about the lawsuit that California SBE is facing because of his elegant handling of community concerns and textbook corrections. Witzel claimed that the State was being forced to spend money that "should have gone towards children's education" in defending lawsuits.

Tut, tut. What a shame. Yeah, see below where the State has to spend $75000 appointing investigators to nail his Patron Harvard Trustee Alan Bersin.

And they need sooooo much money to build new prisons.....

Next up: Bersins' blatant conflict of interest, and shameless lobbying for his corporate employer Harvard, using California tax dollars, to hire and feed Harvard flunky Witzel.

I wonder if California shouldn't DIRECTLY take over feeding both Witzel AND Bersin on an extended basis instead?
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 11, 2006 12:00 AM
348
Sridhar:

VERY INTERESTING development you posted. That's the next item of proof that whoever takes Witzel at his word, is taking one fine large step towards jail.
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Mar 12, 2006 12:00 AM
349
Here is another piece of non-news (nothing surprising, I mean.) From "Daily Pioneer":

"Readers would easily recall that the New Year began with an unholy diatribe launched by Communist Party of India (Marxist) member of the Rajya Sabha, Ms Brinda Karat, against one of the most revered yoga and ayurveda experts of contemporary India, Acharya Ram Dev, in which she accused his enterprise, Divya Yoga Pharmacy, of adulterating medical prescriptions with human and animal bones. For weeks thereafter, the Left-led chorus degenerated into calumny and worse, all of which was geared towards a single objective: To run the indigenous science of ayurveda and yoga down, and to proclaim its exponents and practitioners as a bunch of ill-informed, unscientific right-wing reactionaries.

There was another subtext as well: If you want to guard your health, steer clear of such "charlatans".

,,, even the Central Government that depends on their support for survival, thought it fit to call their bluff by insisting that Acharya Ram Dev's ashram conformed to good laboratory practices. Now, test results at the Delhi-based Sri Ram Institute of Industrial Research as well as Uttaranchal Government recognised institute at Hardwar have established the point beyond all contention: There is no trace of animal or human parts in the ayurvedic medicines manufactured by the Divya Yoga Pharmacy. This leaves no room for doubt that Ms Karat and her party were seeking to gain propaganda points against what they perceive as their true class enemy: The Hindu faith. Their attempt to turn India's millions to the Left's one true secular god, Karl Marx, has thus fallen flat on its face and Ms Karat and her comrades would do well to apologise ..."

Er... that assumes that Comrade Carrot has some human qualities. A VERY bad assumption about Commies and Creationist nutcases like Brinjal Carrot and CIIS (never promoted to) "Professor" Angana Cheaterjee, Foster& Sullivan Consultant Stalini Gera and UCLA Permanent Associate Professor Vinay Lal and New York LTTE patron Arsun Appiturai, and academic illiterate Steven A. Farmer.

As the old saying goes, they are not liars because they are caught lying. They lie because they are liars.


They have been proven to be liars time and again and again
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Apr 18, 2006 12:00 AM
350
Friends of Witzel an Romila Thappar have been caught on CD swaping wives.
Ye want these guys to decide our text books? Yuck!
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
COLLAPSE COMMENTS   
Post a Comment
You are not logged in, please log in or register
ABOUT US | CONTACT US | SUBSCRIBE | ADVERTISING RATES | COPYRIGHT & DISCLAIMER | COMMENTS POLICY