Full Text
'Palpable Falsehoods'
'Some members of the Indian American community are, we should recognize, seeking to push through changes in textbooks which no serious group of scholars of Indian history would view as anything other than palpable falsehoods.'
Contention
It is déjà vu time for battle-scarred scholars of Indian history, who have scarcely recovered from their long and bitter fight against the "saffronization" of textbooks in India. Only, the new battleground is far-away California.
Raju Rajagopal
Full text of the letter by Professor Vinay Lal to the President, California State Board of Education

27 January 2006

Ms. Glee Johnson
President, California State Board of Education
1430 "N" Street, Room 5111
Sacramento, CA. 95814
FAX: 916-319-0175

Dear Ms. Johnson and Members of the State Board of Education,

I write to you in as a professor of Indian history at UCLA, as an Indian American presently resident in California who, as the father of two school-going children, is also heavily invested in the quality of education offered in state schools, and -- last but not least -- as a Hindu who is keenly aware of the immensely diverse strands of belief, religious practice, and history that have gone into the making of what is today called "Hinduism". I am at this moment concerned with a review, commenced by the California State Board of Education a few months ago, of those portions of school textbooks pertaining to ancient India, and wish to affirm, in the most unequivocal terms, my unstinting support of the three member faculty review committee (or content review panel) comprised of Michael Witzel (Harvard), James Heitzman (UC Davis), and Stanley Wolpert (UCLA). I understand that the Hindu Education Foundation and the Vedic Foundation, whose views have largely been endorsed by Professor Shiva Bajpai of California State University (Northridge), have agitated for certain changes with which the Content Review Panel (hereafter CRP) is not in agreement, and I should like to bring to your attention my views, which closely correspond with those of the CRP, on some disputed matters.

Before proceeding, however, to a brief discussion of some of the proposed changes, I would like to alert you to some extremely significant features of this debate. First, though I speak as an Indian-American, Hindu, resident of California, and a concerned citizen, in this matter I would like to be viewed in the first instance as an historian of India and a scholar of Indian studies more broadly. I find it admirable that the State Board of Education should permit citizens of the state to weigh in with their opinions about school textbooks, and it is the procedures allowed by the State Board and under state law that have permitted so many Indian Americans, whether Hindu or otherwise, as well as those who are not Indian Americans, to express their views on the content of school textbooks. This is, after all, what it means to work under a democratic system and to allow citizens a significant voice in matters that touch upon such vital domains as education, schooling, family, and religion. By the same token, I believe it incumbent upon the State Board to recognize that not all opinions are equal, and that ultimately the decision about the text to be incorporated in any textbook is best left to the determination of those scholars who have devoted their working lives to a study of the subjects in question. Not only does the CRP consist of three senior scholars at leading American universities, but their views were endorsed in a letter to the Board signed by over 140 members of the profession, many of them senior scholars at leading research universities around the world, including the United States and India, who specialize in the study of India and South Asia. As far as I am aware, the Hindu Education Foundation and Vedic Foundation and their supporters do not number among their ranks any academic specialists in Indian history or religion other than Professor Bajpai himself. It is a remarkable fact that, in a state which has perhaps the leading public research university system in the United States, these two foundations could not find a single professor of Indian history or religion within the UC system (with its ten campuses) to support their views. Indeed, it would be no exaggeration to say that they would be hard pressed to find a single scholar at any research university in the United States who would support their views.

Secondly, I would urge you to reject the attempt among some members of the Indian American community to project themselves as Hindus who, by virtue of being Hindus, are entitled to have their views given precedence over the views of scholars who may not be Hindus. Their view that as practitioners of Hinduism they know best is, I regret to say, indicative of the fact they understand little the religion of which they claim to be authentic specimens. The genius of Hinduism resides precisely in the fact that it is a polycentric, extraordinarily diverse, and decentered faith, and there are more kinds of Hindus than one could conjure even in oneï'½s most fanciful moments. As a Hindu, I do not recognize many of their claims as valid. It is also a fact that, like every other religion known to us in the world, Hinduism has practiced its own forms of discrimination, and I can say with certainty that the views of those who have been marginalized by upper-caste Hinduism do not correspond with the views of many members of the Indian American community who have written to you and other state officials. To admit all of this is not in the least to deny the fact that there were egregious, even offensive, errors in the India units of the textbooks, but the CRP did, of course, agree with many of the proposed edits. My own work, and that of most scholars presently working on Indian history and religion, is informed by the understanding that Hinduism and ancient Indian history were often grossly misrepresented in scholarly works in the past, but the whole endeavor of the last three decades has been to avoid these kinds of mistakes. In the present controversy, it would be highly misleading to suggest, as the Vedic Foundation and Hindu Education Foundation and their supporters have done, that their opponents have a derogatory view of India or of Hinduism or that their views are somehow intrinsically prejudiced. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Thirdly, it is important to stress the fact that the changes proposed by the Hindu Education Foundation and Vedic Foundation, and endorsed by Professor Bajpai, were also sought to be introduced into history textbooks in India itself when the Bharatiya Janata Party, known for its outspoken advocacy of Hindu supremacy, came into political power and started working closely with avowedly Hindu supremacist organizations such as the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS). These "debates" on Indian history textbooks have gone through many rounds in India. The Hindu nationalists in India sought to introduce, indeed sometimes with success in certain states as Gujarat, which has been governed by Hindu nationalists over the last several years, changes that can only be described as reprehensible. It is a well documented fact that, in the history school textbooks in Gujarat, Hitler is upheld as an example of a leader who was disciplined and valiantly lifted the country out of its torpor, just as these history books conveniently forget to mention the fact that Mahatma Gandhi, the greatest Indian of the day, was assassinated by a Hindu nationalist. No one, needless to say, is suggesting that these are the changes sought by members of the Indian American community. But it is worthwhile remembering that the same history textbooks try to suggest to students that the caste system was never oppressive, that women in India were endowed with equal rights as men, that Hinduism is inherently tolerant while the Semitic faiths are inherently intolerant, and that India is the origin of all the great accomplishments in human civilization. These are precisely the changes, among others, which the Hindu Education Foundation (HEF) and Vedic Foundation (VF) are keen to implement. The textbooks created a scandal in India, besides introducing havoc into the educational system, and it is worthwhile pondering what the consequences might be of introducing ill-founded claims in history textbooks in California. I may add that I have treated this subject at considerable length in my book, The History of History: Politics and Scholarship in Modern India (Oxford University Press, 2003), and I am prepared, if asked, to furnish you with as many citations as you might require about the nature of debates over history textbooks in India.

While it is not possible for me to dwell at any great length on the changes recommended by Prof. Bajpai and disputed by the CRP, it would be instructive, I believe, to look briefly at three such changes, pertaining to the role of women in ancient India, the nature of the caste system, and the early history of Aryans in India. On the question of women, one of HEFï'½s proposed edits, approved by Prof. Bajpai, would alter the passage in the Glencoe/McGraw Hill textbook (p. 245), which presently reads as "Men had many more rights than women" to the following: "Men had different duties (dharma) as well as rights than women. Many women were among the sages to whom the Vedas were revealed." The Upanishads mention not "many" women sages, but only a couple -- indeed, only one whose name appears constantly, Gargi. More importantly, all scholars of ancient Indian history are agreed that the position of men and women in ancient Indian society was vastly unequal. The view of someone such as D. N. Jha, a formidable authority on ancient India who has taught at the University of Delhi for some decades, can reasonably be considered as representative. Writing in his recent work, Early India (Delhi, 2004), Jha states of ancient India that "the Brahmanical thinkers defined the duty of each caste, and imposed social, economic, and political disabilities on the shudras; they also laid down injunctions undermining the position of women" (p. 92).

Characterizing women as having different (rather than fewer) rights than men cannot be viewed other than as a gross attempt to whitewash the history of patriarchy in ancient India. It is instructive that Mahatma Gandhi, who has often been criticized by secular and Marxist scholars in India as having a romantic conception of ancient Indian civilization, wrote with sadness and characteristic bluntness the following in 1926: "What can women have done that even men like Tulsidas [a renowned saint] have used insulting epithets for them? Whether it was the fault of Tulsidas or of the times, the blemish is nevertheless there." He adds, referring to an earlier period, "The ancient laws were made by seers who were men. The womenï'½s experience, therefore, is not represented in them." (Raghavan Iyer, ed., The Moral and Political Writings of Mahatma Gandhi, Oxford [1987], Vol. 3, pp. 393-94; emphasis added) Should we then, following the logic of the HEF and the Vedic Foundation, view Gandhi as a self-hating Hindu hostile to his own religion and culture? It would, of course, be absurd to do so, but his views on this matter are precisely those which the CRP and South Asian academics are supporting. Stressing difference rather than inequality, as the HEF and Prof Bajpai propose, would be rather like saying that African Americans and white Americans in Jim Crow South had different rights. We all know that "difference" here is only a way of disguising the brutal truth that white Americans exercised dominance over African Americans in virtually every domain of life.

On the nature of the caste system in India, the edits proposed by the HEF and endorsed by Professor Bajpai, if accepted into the textbooks, would convey to students the exceedingly erroneous impression that caste should simply be viewed as another form of social stratification, similar to class distinctions that have existed in every society known to human beings, when in fact the caste system - particularly if we understand it through the categories of ï'½varnaï'½ and ï'½jatiï'½ - was, and is, distinct to the Indian subcontinent. Much worse, the proposed edits seek to convey the idea, to which students are alerted by the bland assertion of the fact that in modern India ï'½untouchabilityï'½ is outlawed by the Constitution, that the caste system did not entail systematic forms of discrimination. All the evidence points to the contrary fact, namely that the caste system condemned millions of people to permanent and relentless servitude, and though legislation forbids such discrimination today, the position of many Dalits remains substantially unaltered. The list of authorities here is long enough that it would take several pages, but for ancient India, one could turn to the works of D. N. Jha, Romila Thapar, Uma Chakravarti, D. D. Kosambi, J. H. Hutton, B. R. Ambedkar, and P. V. Kane; for modern India, one could turn to B. R. Ambedkar, Gail Omvedt, Kancha Ilaiah, Dipankar Gupta, Andre Beteille, among many others. It is astonishing that the word "Dalit", which derives from the root "dal", meaning scattered, split, and broken up (thus referring to people whose worldviews and experiences were scattered to the wind, people so abused that they could not remain whole) which is correctly used in one of the present textbooks to refer to the lowest strata of Indian society, should have been deleted by Professor Bajpai with the observation that only a small strata of the lower castes in Maharashtra call themselves as such. Dalit is, in fact, the word with which the people formerly known as the "Untouchables", and now numbering something in the vicinity of 15-20% of Indiaï'½s population, prefer to designate themselves. If we cannot even do them the simple dignity of allowing them to name themselves - and there is almost no greater power than the power to name - how can we expect that we will do their history justice?

This brings me to the final point. At various places the HEF and Vedic Foundation have submitted that the narrative of Aryan migrations to India, which is about as established a fact as any that one can encounter in the human sciences, is erroneous. The Aryans came to India most likely from a place somewhere in the vicinity of present-day Georgia and the Ural Mountains, more broadly from Central Asia, and scholars, including Indians, Europeans, Americans, as well as those who are designated as ï'½liberalï'½, ï'½Marxistï'½, or ï'½positivistsï'½, all accept this as a fact which has been the foundation of huge amounts of scholarship in such areas as comparative religion, comparative and Indo-European linguistics, mythology, and history. The scholars who are best qualified to deliver an opinion on this matter are those who have devoted a lifetime of study to this subject, who are conversant with at least a couple of ancient languages and skilled in reading ancient texts and inscriptions, and I do not believe that the alleged evidence of some unknown geneticist, or the strong sentiments of a community some of whose members would like to believe that Aryans left India for other parts of the world, should be viewed as constituting evidence of the need to overturn the long established view on this matter. If the Curriculum Commission and the State Board of Education find themselves torn by the appeals of both sides, it would easy enough a matter to consult specialists in Indo-European studies who are not Indianists by profession and can therefore be viewed as impartial. I would be pleased to furnish the names of some such specialists.

In conclusion, it is understandable that Indian Americans, and in particular the Hindus among them, should view themselves as concerned about representations of their history and religion which they find to be inaccurate and offensive. No one, least of all members of the CRP or specialists of South Asian studies who for years have been engaged in combating such representations in scholarly and popular books, journals, and the media, is disputing the fact that history textbooks should reflect the history, culture and religion of a people as accurately as possible, and with the cultural sensitivity to which every group is entitled. But that, we should be clear, is no longer the issue. To understand the present objectives of the Hindu Education Foundation and Vedic Foundation and their supporters in the community, it is necessary to recognize the fact that they are inspired by the similar Hindu nationalist agenda which has gained a significant political voice in India since the early 1990s and which has created severe disruptions in Indiaï'½s educational system. The history that such nationalists would impose upon students is invariably a sanitized one, cleansed of unpleasant facts about systematic forms of discrimination and exploitation which are as much a part of human history as the aspiration for freedom and liberation from oppression. Moreover, the achievements of Indian civilization are great enough that we should not have to manufacture evidence and pretend that the Aryans originated in India and showered the gift of civilization on all other peoples. Emboldened by the economic rise of India, the growing awareness in the world of Indiaï'½s present and past role in world history, and their own growing numbers in the United States as well their extraordinary affluence, some members of the Indian American community are, we should recognize, seeking to push through changes in textbooks which no serious group of scholars of Indian history would view as anything other than palpable falsehoods.

This matter has now gone well beyond California, and people in the US, India, and wherever there are significant Indian communities will be looking to see how a resolution is achieved. I am afraid that Californiaï'½s school system will, among such people, fall into considerable ill-repute if the changes sought to be imposed by the Hindu Education Foundation and Vedic Foundation are accepted by the State Board of Education. I very much hope that the State Board will not be swayed by the consideration that the demands, even when wholly unreasonable, made by an ethnic and religious community should be acceded to merely because failure to do so will be viewed by some members of that community as injurious to their sentiments. In the last analysis, if the purpose of the textbooks is to impart as accurate a view of the past as is possible, and if we should wish to do our students justice and turn them into citizens capable of reflecting about such matters as equality and inequality, justice and injustice, then it becomes imperative that the State Board of Education, the Curriculum Commission, and other bodies should only be guided by considerations of what constitutes a true body of knowledge.

I am available to answer any further queries you may have, to furnish evidence on behalf of the arguments advanced in this letter and by members of the CRP, or to otherwise make myself available to you for further consultation if you should so desire.

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Contention
It is déjà vu time for battle-scarred scholars of Indian history, who have scarcely recovered from their long and bitter fight against the "saffronization" of textbooks in India. Only, the new battleground is far-away California.
Raju Rajagopal
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HAVE YOUR SAY
Mar 18, 2006 12:00 AM
58
Some research into the matter should help to dispel ideas that are circulating in this Blog. Professor Lal is not a communist. He is a professed chela of Dr Ashis Nandy who so many people who write rabid responses in blogs adore. What is the problem then ? Is anyone you disagree with automatically a 'commie' ? What about the totally discredited nature of the so-called student 'evaluations' of Lal that are being cited ? Many of the messages are just hate texts, written by unhinged characters. As usual in Rants and Raves.
s vishwanathan
eluru, india
Feb 21, 2006 12:00 AM
57
Vinay Lal's irrationality stands exposed...

The Stanford Daily, Friday, February 17 2006, Page 4
Oppose creationism
By J.Sreedhar

An issue has been quietly brewing in California regarding the contents of school textbooks. In the past few months, there have been repeated clashes between scientists and creationists in Sacramento's corridors of power, which are likely to spill over into the mainstream. In particular, creationists have managed to influence decisions made by California's State Board of Education.

It is well known that proponents of biblical creationism object to scientific ideas like evolution and regularly clamor for equal treatment of their beliefs in school textbooks.

In the scientific method, one makes observations and comes up with a hypothesis that makes accurate predictions. The results obtained by the scientific method are repeatable and the hypotheses themselves are potentially falsifiable by new evidence. On the other hand, pseudo-scientific theories make assumptions that can neither be proved nor disproved but are taken as truth. They do not follow the rules of logic, discard scientific evidence and are based on faith.

A field that qualifies as a pseudo-science and is based on creationism is philology which was developed in the 19th century. By cloaking its arguments in academic language and claiming to reconstruct human history by analyzing the roots of words in various languages, it passes off biblical descriptions as historical events. One of the pioneers of philology, Max Müller, was a self-admitted believer in the historical foundation of the description given in Genesis and asserted that "we still speak the language of the first ancestors of our race." He went so far as to write to Charles Darwin that evolution is false because the languages of animals do not resemble those of humans.

Although today's scientists do not consider philology to be a legitimate science, believers in the literal interpretation of the Bible insist on using philology to promote their views. One such view, which has been repeatedly discredited by science, but is still being pushed for inclusion in California's textbooks without mentioning its biblical aspects, is a theory known as the Aryan Migration Theory. According to this theory, descendents of the biblical character Japheth invaded India after the deluge and populated it. Inclusion of this theory in school textbooks would indirectly give sanction to creationism and open the doors for future frontal assaults on science.

A recent paper co-authored by Peter Underhill in our Genetics Department analyzed genetic evidence and concluded that there is no such thing as Aryan migration into India. This is consistent with evidence from other fields such as carbon dating, fossil studies, archaeology, geophysics, linguistics, metallurgy, and satellite imaging. However, in a letter to the California State Board of Education, Vinay Lal – a humanities professor at UCLA and believer in philology – dismisses such scientific conclusions as "palpable falsehoods" and "alleged evidence of some unknown geneticist." He avers that science has no role to play in overturning "the long established view on this matter."

It is incumbent upon us at Stanford to stand up for science and oppose creationism. We should do our part to help California public schools improve their ranking which is almost the lowest in the country.

J.Sreedhar is a research scholar at Stanford University. He can be reached at jsreedhar@gmail.com.
Sabena Dhingra
princeton, United States
Feb 14, 2006 12:00 AM
56
It is interesting to note that the first appearance of Mr Rajiv Sandhu occurs AFTER the article by Mr Malhotra. Clearly, it is not the issues raised by the two articles earlier that interest him. He is Raju Rajagopal now feeling threatened by the logical arguments of an opponent.

But why stoop so low? Why can't people debate honestly even while disagreeing? Your life does not depend on this and nor does OutlookIndia ultimately determine the fate of millions of people out there. Grow up and become decent, will you?

Mr. Sandhu's name-calling is so obnoxious as to cause any open minded young person to repel just on that basis. FOSA should regroup to figure out what to do. Maybe time for leadership change?

Namaskar,
Sabena Dhingra
princeton, United States
Feb 14, 2006 12:00 AM
55
A few things about Mr Sandhu's crusade:

a) Prophecy that Hinduism is doomed: well, the religion has endured various attacks in its supposedly 5000 year history. So a few conversions here and there would not make much of a difference. Even if the 20% of all dalits converted, it would not make a difference to the religion. The religion would continue to live on because of its tolerance and adaptability

Varsha Bhosle, who apparently says "I guess the Hindus are doomed. They don't want to reform and change." does not seem to have a clue about Hinduism and its history. If there is one religion that has adapted itself to the needs of the time while retaining its core, it is Hinduism.

b) Prejudicies: He says" From out of the "sewers" of Southall (notice how fast you caste Hindus are to delegate any critic of your smug prejudices to the sewers, just like the hapless dalits)"

Well, if we read Mr Sandhu's posts, he has typically called "upper" castes as well-fed, wheatish complexioned, fat headed, ghee-fed etc etc. So let's cut the bullshit about prejudices.

c) Mr Sandhu writes: "If Dalits don't get an decent break even if they leave Hinduism, the cause is simple: because the bad Hindu ideas about their karma-determined miserable status continue to dog them."

Wow.... talk about having the cake and eating it too. Dalits walk out of Hinduism because of "bad Hindu ideas", but are not able to do well because they are dogged by the "bad Hindu ideas". They have left the religion saying they are not getting what they deserve. Why should they continue to blame the same religion if they do not get a 'decent break"? Isn't providing a "decent break" the responsibility of the new religion they embraced, that promised them the moon, stars, sky and even heaven while encouraging them to walk out of Hinduism?

d) He writes: "Does the "we" include 11 year old children? Sure. They should know about the dark side of Hinduism, as they no doubt are told about the Holocaust and about US Slavery."

Are 11 year olds really taught about slavery and Holocaust in the US? I am not sure, but I dont think so. There is enough of a life time left for them to learn about the "dark side" of Hinduism, if they want to or if they care about it.

e) But only a poltroon would compare them to the horrifying,less-than-human conditions in which more than half the Indian population lives. Two-thirds of Indian women have to wait until nightfall to relieve themselves. That is not a society with much to boast about.

Yeah, sure. I could say the same thing about the victims of Katrina - where were they relieving themselves? Did they not live in sub-human conditions?

Most of Africa is christian - and the people there too live in sub-human conditions? So do we blame christianity for that? In Muslim countries too people live in abject conditions - so do we blame their religion for that?

That you have chosen to apportion the blame of economic problems to a religion shows your bias - you are entitled to it though. And these economic problems were not caused by upper caste Hindus - but by successive governments who have come to power on the planks of social justice and secularism, while exploiting religion and caste all the time.
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Feb 13, 2006 12:00 AM
54
so called professer (lol!) Lal is vomiting his lies and propaganda again in this article.

His articles are a nothing but Stupidity and Symptoms of his illness.

Rahul
New Delhi, India
Feb 13, 2006 12:00 AM
53
People like Lal and Raju are Jaychand's of modern India. They and their Slave ideology is the biggest irritant and burden of this country.

Jaychand was sucessful in betraying his mother India but now Hindu India will hit back . No Jaychand can dare to rape Hinduism and India again.
Rahul
New Delhi, India
Feb 13, 2006 12:00 AM
52
faruki:

Introductions to religions of school children or indeed anybody should not be "respectful" but should respect only the truth. Hinduism's abundant and grotesque cruelties should be richly described; so should any virtues it might have. The same for Islam, Christianity etc.

That is what I would like to have learned at school when I was young: not anodyne lies of the Rajiv Malhotra type.
Rajiv Sandhu
SOUTHALL, United Kingdom
Feb 11, 2006 12:00 AM
51
The real answers to all these Nehru/ Thapar falsifiers of Indian history is the Internet itself. They cling to their squalid academic positions, and use them like toilet seat to dribble out filth and garbage which stinks to high heaven.....But in the end that's all they can do. I have over the years spoken with hundreds of Indians about this issue, and met harldly one who was not aware of Thapar and Nehru as sordid liars about history. The Internet makes it very very easy to get refutations of the Thaparian lies known instantly to large numbers of interested people. In the face of that what does Thapar's and Lal's continued position on the academic toilet seat really amount to? They are grotesque, utterly discredited dinosaurs.
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Feb 11, 2006 12:00 AM
50
Nikhil writes, "Look at you Mr. Faruki. There is not even a pretense of political correctness, not even a shadow of doubt that a “good proportion” (wonder why you even qualify it that way, when it is as good as *all*) might be murderers"

I did not call any of them murderers. If a good number of them are supporters of RSS, VHP and the Bajrang Dal, would that affect the way I feel about them? Well, these are the groups who have left no stone unturned in India both through text book manipulation and through political slogans to make Muslim children targets of hate and unproud of their own history. Does it mean I want Hindu children in California subjected to the same treatment? Definitely not. I have already said more than once that introductions to all major religions in textbooks should be non-controversial, respectful and non-proselytizing.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 11, 2006 12:00 AM
49
Faruki saheb you say: "I did not call any of them murderers."

Gee thanks! Neither, did I say you did. Read the quote again, I have qualified your *implication* that they *might* be murderers.

Thankfully some of us paid attention in our middle school math and elementary equations classes - seeing right thru your vicious machinations. You still continue to call ordinary parents and children RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal supporters and what not - all thousands of them - then charge RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal with all kinds of violence. Then you ahve the gall to say, I did'nt say so?

Maybe a tight slap from your mother will fix your perversion of calling little 14 year old girls all kinds of names!


http://www.hvk.org/articles/1003/0.html
Nikhil Malhotra
Nashville, United States
Feb 11, 2006 12:00 AM
48
So - Associate Professor Vinay Lal's readers rate his article:

1 FOR ( and even that, Mr. Faroki, has come out and been honest enough to declare that Lal's article is incompetent)

43 AGAINST.

Way to go, Mr. Lal!!

Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Feb 10, 2006 12:00 AM
47
"Consider what Witzel and the 47 thieves have ever done in the past 40 years to correct the errors in those textbooks, and after taking the 0 seconds it takes to count those, please revisit this article."

Very good point. Forget witzel, none of the Indian leftists cows cared all these years. Why? because these sons of bitches live off of denigrating the hindus. They have a singular lack of belief in themselves and the civilizations they come from. Slaves they are to their masters and slaves they will remain. Forever the servile, wanna please massah slaves, they will stoop to all levels to fend off those that might threaten or question their legitimacy.

After all these years of complicity and silence they come up with something like this: "Egregious errors and stereotypes in the textbooks must be corrected. " It took them about half a century to even acknowledge it? who the fuck are they kidding?
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Betelguese, USA
Feb 10, 2006 12:00 AM
46
Thank you Mr. Faruki for identifying three aspects sixth grade textbooks must be written with all three in mind:

A. Non-controversial
B. Respectful
C. Introductory

Now let us know if what parents are asking is unreasonable? Please review the following:

1. Status of women: In Ancient history, inferior status of women was not a sole preserve of Hinduism. Parents object to the discriminatory
treatment of Hindus. If status of women is not discussed about Jewish & Christian faiths, why should it be discussed about Hinduism?

2. Untouchability: Sixth grade History textbooks in California end their narrative at 550-600 AD. Before this period, untouchability was a very marginal phenomenon. It is more appropriate to introduce this practice in High School textbooks that discuss later Indian history. Parents demanding changes are *not* objecting to its retention there (High School textbooks).

3. Aryan Invasion: Perhaps the *most controversial, after evidence from Hydronomy, archaeology, astronomy, metallurgy, genetics and other scientific methods are collated. It is also aruguably the *most disrespectful* as it is rooted in racism, colonialism and other despicable ideologies. One can hardly treat it as introductory.

So in essence, On one hand Mr. Mansur can even proselytize, but Hindu parents - the most disconnected with politics have a hard time passing the most non-controversial and modest edits in language. Perhaps if the parents got politically motivated like Mr. Mansur, then they would have been called apolitical, just as Mr. Mansur is apparently viewed.
Nikhil Malhotra
Nashville, United States
Feb 10, 2006 12:00 AM
45
Note, in my last comment

1. Status of women fails the "Respectful" test.
2. Untouchability fails the "Introductory" test.
3. Aryan Invasion fails all three - "Controversial", "Respectful" and "Introductory" tests.
Nikhil Malhotra
Nashville, United States
Feb 10, 2006 12:00 AM
44
Mr Sardung, unlike religion, which is a matter of faith, history's aim is to make an oblective presentation of facts and the truth based on the best unbiased research available. History books written in India, Pakistan and many other countries do not meet that standard, but that, in my view, should be the aim.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 10, 2006 12:00 AM
43
Nikhil, are you talking of chapters on history, or chapters on religions?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 10, 2006 12:00 AM
42
Ghulam chapters in history are lived, they cannot be written are they? I am talking of neither. I am talking about exactly what you asked. To quote you

"Brief non-controversial and respectful introductions to all major religions including Islam, Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism etc, designed to create greater understanding between peoples would, in my view, be quite kosher."
Nikhil Malhotra
Nashville, United States
Feb 10, 2006 12:00 AM
41
Ghulam:
¨Nikhil, are you talking of chapters on history, or chapters on religions?¨

When religion is taught to kids it is mostly practices and some beliefs and not profound philosophy of the religion. When practices are taught history usually comes with it . And the principles you laid out are valid for history too - when it is taught to kids.

You dont permit kids to watch porn so it is not advisable to teach them about outdated outlawed practices like Sati in India or witch burning in midieval christiam Europe.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Feb 10, 2006 12:00 AM
40
Kiran, the age of the pupils being taught is of course relevant to the contents of the texts, but it should not be an excuse to fudge historical facts.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 10, 2006 12:00 AM
39
GHulam:
¨ but it should not be an excuse to fudge historical facts. ¨

Fudge ? whoever talked about fudging here ? It is the way you present the material using your own critirea
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Feb 10, 2006 12:00 AM
38
Ghulam you said:

"but it should not be an excuse to fudge historical facts."

Please, show me one historical fact that has been "fudged".
Nikhil Malhotra
Nashville, United States
Feb 10, 2006 12:00 AM
37
Nikhil, if children are being taught the caste system, but one wishes to avoid mentioning its evils, then instead of putting forward a whitewashed justification, one could just mention the caste system and leave it at that. Is that possible?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 10, 2006 12:00 AM
36
Mr. Faruki, it is hard to make out from Vinay Lal's gibberish, but the issue here is MIDDLE SCHOOL TEXTS on Social Studies, not "History Books". Please don't change the subject - your hero Vinay Lal is clearly seen to be a liar and a fraud. Check the facts and let us hear some honesty from you, please.

Objective presentation of facts is simply impossible because if that is done about certain religions, there will be worldwide riots. As long as that is the case, all other religions should also be described in the most rose-tinted fashion.

You cannot have one standard of "unbiased honesty" about one religion and another for another. Tell me, will Muslims tolerate honesty about the history of their religion?
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Feb 10, 2006 12:00 AM
35
Ghulam: Do you even understand English or is verbal circus your game - just like this professor. You just replaced "fudged historical facts" with "whitewashed justification".

I am positive that like the few twenty or so who are making all the noise touting their degrees, you have also not read the mild 100 or so revisions the parents have put forth.

Please put "due diligence" into a document that is publicly available and point out to the line where the parents have indulged in "fudging" history.
Nikhil Malhotra
Nashville, United States
Feb 10, 2006 12:00 AM
34
Mr Ari Saja, I have been making a distinction between religion and history components of social studies. Presentation of all religions to children should be non-controversial, respectful and non-proselytizing. History of religions however is a different matter. It is murky and bloody for every one, worse for some than for others. History of the Hindus has a lot more positives that that of many others. Even so recent Sanghi writers have tried to clean it up even further while demonizing the history of Indian Muslims. Authors may write what they please, but the responsibility of school boards about what they will allow to be taught is a serious one. I recognise that history is subject to political winds, and we all know that Black history as it was taught just 50 years ago was quite different from Black history taught now. The same can be expected to happen with Hindu history as taught in the US over the course of time. I may appear to be one-sided because of the two articles currently in Outlook being the freshest in my mind, although I did read up a lot on what the parents have been trying to achieve a couple of months ago when links to several blogs were given by one of the posters in this forum.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 10, 2006 12:00 AM
33
Professor Vinay Lal is correct in saying that the Hindus who want the changes in the textbook would be hard pressed to find a professor who would endorse their views. But what Professor Lal is hiding is, there were and still are many many Indian scholars who have been consistently critical of the fanciful western interpretation of Hindu scriptures. But they did not hold academic rank like Professor Lal, Witzel and Thapar. A lot of what these champions of "history" held on to has already been discredited. They are merely holding onto rest of the fiction. Before swearing history at every breath, they should also consider in what light the future generations will view them.
dcindia
Omaha, United States
Feb 10, 2006 12:00 AM
32
Mr. Faruki:

My issue with what you have been arguing is precisely that it is too unquestioning about the writings of those two writers - Raju Rajagopal of "ICA" and "Ekta", both of which are Communist PROXSA/FOIL subsidiaries, and Vinay Lal, the Mouthpiece (With-Both-Feet-Inserted) of the FOIL.

These writers are lying, to put it mildly. The issue in California is, let me repeat:

".. MIDDLE SCHOOL TEXTS on Social Studies, not "History Books". ..Vinay Lal is clearly seen to be a liar and a fraud. Check the facts .. please."

What justifies those two articles in OUTLOOK? Is the Sangh standing for elections in California? Do you see any evidence that the parents worried about hate attacks against their kids in 5th grade, are the same who went around rioting in Ahmedabad, or burning train passengers to death in Godhra?

Are Rajagopal and Lal not hate-mongering liars?

I too want, and endorse,the changes approved by Professor Bajpai for Hindus, as well as the changes approved by the same Board for representing Judaism. Does that make me a "Hindu Nationalist"? Nationalist of which Nation, please? Are you accusing me of being a foreign agent?

Indian Media Editors like those of OUTLOOK, FRONTLINE and The HUNDI are irresponsible, and are motivated by their own petty jealosy and hatred for those who went to America and work hard for a living. How else do you explain the publication of these two idiotic articles, with no counter-balance?

They feel that they are safe because my Indian-American friends in California are not going to go throw stones at the offices of The Hundi or OUTLOOK. I think that if India has laws against hate speech, as the loud CAUTION below the OUTLOOK feedback page says, then these editors should be put in jail.

As for Rajagopal and Lal, I guess they get a "kick" out of seeing their names in print, even if it is to describe them as liars and idiots (which is of course proven by their articles, no malice at all intended). Some people have weird tastes, can't help it.

But please, Mr. Faruki, the issue is MIDDLE SCHOOL TEXTBOOKS. You and I can argue about the History of Religions all we want, but not in middle school textbooks.

The other part of the issue is COMPARATIVE PRESENTATION. I agree that middle-school kids watch gory movies when they can. So if you want books to cater to that taste, well, then argue to present the History of Christianity, the History of Islam etc., in all their "Gory" (pun intended).

Let's see large illustrated sections on the Crusades, with entire Muslim populations captured and cut to pieces in The Name of Lawd Jeesus Who Taught Us to Love Our Neighbors, or the Portuguese Inquisition, or the Mountain of Skulls made by Timur, or the equally glorious achievements of the Muslim hordes in Gujarat, Kerala, Vijayaragaram.... the list goes on. And let's not forget Witzel's Hitler, or Angana Chatterji's and Shalini Gera's Stalin, or Vinay Lal's Taliban, or Vijay Prashad's Pol Pot. Wow! For once, it won't be a problem getting kids to read books, I can assure you of that!
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Feb 10, 2006 12:00 AM
31
Mr Ari Saja, you ask "Do you see any evidence that the parents worried about hate attacks against their kids in 5th grade, are the same who went around rioting in Ahmedabad, or burning train passengers to death in Godhra?" I would heartily join their cause myself if I did not have a sneaking suspicion that a good proportion of them are big contributors to the RSS, VHP nd the Bajrang Dal. I am sorry I had to say that, because I do consider the bulk of your post to be quite reasonable and convincing.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 10, 2006 12:00 AM
30
Ghulam:
Says: " I would heartily join their cause myself if I did not have a sneaking suspicion that a good proportion of them are big contributors to the RSS, VHP nd the Bajrang Dal"

Right. It's a sneaky suspision only.

The fact is that Prof Vinay Lal did contribute to a lot to that suspicison by peddling lies like that Christian Presberytian Hospital in Miraj was a RSS or VHP run organisation (though I don't have anything against any hospitals).



Ari, You have made some pretty good points. Thank you.
Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Feb 10, 2006 12:00 AM
29
Mr Faruki,

Excuse me?

You say: “if I did not have a sneaking suspicion that a good proportion of them are big contributors to the RSS, VHP nd the Bajrang Dal.”

Let me take a shot of what might be the cause of your “sneaking suspicion” that some 10,000 – not one or two but 10,000 - people with an impeccable law-abiding record and not to mention extraordinary educational background might be bloody murderers! It could be summarized as “How could Hindus be assertive about their faith? The corollary being if they are assertive, they must be bloody murderers”! It does not matter that you do not know even one among the 10,000, it does not even matter that some among them are as young as 14 or younger and have no clue why the hell they might be called violent axe-wielders, it does not even matter that you have not even read what they have asked for. Just that they asked is reason enough for you to throw your perverse blanket.

It is not surprising that one parent lamented “Labels such as ‘Hindutva’ are hurled …….just as people merely suspected to be 25% Jewish in Nazi Germany were dispatched to the gas chambers for incineration.” “Someone yelled ‘Hindutva’, and …. people just charged willingly like a herd of sheep.”

Look at you Mr. Faruki. There is not even a pretense of political correctness, not even a shadow of doubt that a “good proportion” (wonder why you even qualify it that way, when it is as good as *all*) might be murderers, not even a sliver of acknowledgement that the people have *not* thrown wrenches at the revisions of others which far outweigh their own. Just asking for a sympathetic introduction of their own faith for little children is good enough proof of their endorsement of mass mayhem.

In a civilized world this is called Hate mongering. Good people across the world are busy educating that despite all indications pointing to contrary, blanketing a “good proportion” of Muslims as sympathetic to terror, besides being unfair is also morally wrong. Such mindless assertion is sneered at. But that does not disturb you Mr. Faruki, does it?

Readers are encouraged to read the following piece by a Hindu parent in California (one Outlook will not touch) – that explains how the genesis of this whole affair is rooted in the question – “how dare Hindus assert their faith is good, these people must be bloody murders.”


http://www.india-forum....Michael-Witzel-Petition


Mr. Faruki. I find it my pleasure to introduce you to an axe –wielding Bajrang dali!


http://www.hvk.org/articles/1003/0.html
Nikhil Malhotra
Nashville, United States
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
28
Vinay Lal belongs to those poor misguided Indians, who after achieving a certain position after much endevour in their adopted homeland, then completely and utterly subsume their sense and sensibilities so as to be seen marching in lockstep with their native collegues. This is especially true in academia where tenure is prized above all for its power and pelf. While granting that there are certain strands in his arguement that merit consideration, lets not forget the vested self interest at play here. While one could have a serious debate about his first two points, the fact that he has not mentioned David Frawley and Subash Kak nails his bias to the wall. Going down the list of the so called reknowned historians that are mentioned, it is worthwhile also noting that starting with Romilla Thapar, all of them are part of the left intellegensia in Inida. We all know the serious damage that they have wrought on Indias intellectual climate for the past 60 years with their statist and distroted views of History. One only has to look for the indisputable fact that in all these years, the Communists have never ever raised a slogan, a placard or agitated on behalf of a wronged Hindu on the basis of his religion. These people have been a cancer on Indias academic freedom and thinking much like their deterrent effect on the economy. To boldly and unashamedly challenge western notions of India is how this debate should go, not simply endorse long held dogma that are at variance with facts that come from true research and an understanding of what India's past is, because that is really what we are debating since in the past India and Hinduism were interchangable.
Sunil
Ponani, India
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
27
Excellent article. Prof. Vinay Lal is honest, erudite and outspoken. This article should be memorized by M M Joshi.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
26
Vinay Lal is "erudite", etc. etc., but not "honest". His record as Spokesperson for the Forum of Indian Leftists in 2003 is well-known - please check
"Miraj Medical Center"
http://www.geocities.co.../foilies/foilies64.html


Let me reproduce his immortal (we hope, for the sake of others whom Lal will try to cheat) words:

"“Everyone who is familiar with the often complex ways in which overseas funding of a large array of political and non-political organizations takes place -- and not only with respect to India - knows fully well that it will not, to take one example, suffice to exonerate an organization that is charged with promoting Hindutva by suggesting that it is supported by the Church of North India. Organizations promoting violence have everywhere learned how to camouflage themselves; their networks are vast, capillary, and polycentric.”

The UCLA History Genius was speaking about a hospital run by the Presbyterian Church of North America - and lying to cover up his blunder in painting that as an RSS hate-mongering institution set up for the purpose of "hinduization" whatever that is.

Here's what the author there had to say of Vinay Lal Associate Professor of History at UCLA:
"Thus in two convoluted sentences Associate Professor of South Asian History at UCLA, Dr. Vinay Lal illuminates us with four definite demonstrations:

1. That he, and since he’s the official spokesman, Sabrang/FOIL, DO MEAN to “charge” the Miraj Medical Center of “promoting Hindutva”!!!!

2. That even an activity rating of “w” means “promoting Hindutva” to Sabrang/FOIL.

3. That he did not bother to think for the millisecond that it would have taken a person of normal intelligence to figure that he should check up on the Miraj Medical Center story.

4. That his arrogance far exceeds his competence and academic standards.

Elsewhere in his learned “rebuttal” Professor Vinay Lal decried the lack of “point-by-point rebuttals” by the Let India Develop campaign, leading one to speculate on the point of trying to convey any points at all to someone with such a capacity for objective reasoning."

The word "IDIOT" was certainly coined with someone in mind, but it fails to do justice to Vinay Lal.

Readers should also check what the Alumni of his own university, who have had to suffer his arrogance and incompetence, have to say about him. Check for the BRUIN Alumni Association.

We thank Vinay Lal for making the rest of us 6 billion seem a lot smarter than we would otherwise.

The latest pack of lies don't make Lal a Liar, oh, no, not at all. Far be it from me to insinuate anything like that. He's congenitally one.
Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
25
Here you go:

First, let me state that I agree completely with the title of the OUTLOOK article. ANYTHING written by Vinay Lal AssociateProfessorofHistoryAtUCLA, HAS to be "FALSEHOOD" palpable or otherwise. You could have saved electrons by just not having a title - people could see "VINAY LAL" and immediately KNOW "Palpable Falsehood".

Now let's go to UCLA, shall we?

http://www.uclaprofs.com/profs/lal.html


"The challenge in properly exposing the poison-pen radicalism of UCLA professor Vinay Lal certainly does not lie in a lack of proof. The problem arises instead in parsing Lal’s incredibly complex, lengthy writing style. What one writer might say in two lines and basic language, Lal will (in true academic style) state in two paragraphs filled with six-line sentences. This style utterly defies the compact excerpting necessary to briefly convey the vitriol that Lal pours on the United States, white Americans, capitalism, consumerism, large vehicles, the military, and on a dozen other phenomenon. We will not, however, shrink from the challenge of portraying Lal in all his gross verbosity. We will parse his wild accusations as we have never parsed before."

..
"Lal sings a sad song of justification for these destructive acts, arguing, essentially, that it’s not like the Taliban is all bad. After all, “Mullah Omar is credited with having helped to destroy the poppy crop…whose eradication was sought as a precondition for the restoration of normal relations between the Taliban and the West.” As Lal tells it, “the destruction of the statues is construed as an expression not only of the Taliban’s anger but of its sense of betrayal, its feeling of isolation and its profound disappointment” at not having been properly rewarded. "

That was about the destruction of the huge Bamiyan Buddha Statues by his friends and sponsors the Taliban.

Conclusion:

"n either case, the student’s comments exposed Lal for the classroom failure he is. "
Why should the classroom be an exception, anyway? Fortunately, for idiots, there's still OUTLOOK.

Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
24
1. Will Outlook also publish more than 800 letters that Hindu parents have faxed to the California Board of Education, or more than 3000 emails the same parents have written?

2. Prof Vinay Lal, just as his last name suggests is as RED as one can get. His students at UCLA have themselves not missed his radical communism. He is ranked #8 in UCLA's dirty thirty:


http://www.uclaprofs.co...ticles/dirtythirty.html


3. Lal has also earned particular attention from the conservative website FrontPageMag.com and its affiliate, DiscovertheNetworks.com. Profiled (not surprisingly) as a leading radical at UCLA, the site criticized the content of Lal’s Fiat Lux Seminar (one of a raft of 1-credit courses created, cynics might say, as both an academic knee-jerk and a UCLA publicity stunt following the attacks of 9/11)!

4. Prof Lal might be the only person in the entire world to have supported the Taliban for smashing the Bamiyan Buddhas to smithereens!

This is Prof Vinay Lal for you. And he speaks for Hindus? Lord have mercy!
Nikhil Malhotra
Nashville, United States
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
23
Whew, this Vinay Lal does seem like some piece of work. So much about him. Now what about his piece and what he had to say? I promise I would read it with an open, unbiased mind. Please do rebut all his points. One by one. I say this in all humility as a concerned Indian American who is yet to make up his mind on this controversy and is willing to learn and look at all the facts.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
22
Mr. Tendulkar:

I hope "open mind" does not mean that all the grey stuff has fallen out? You still can read. Please do read all the material written on this by real people, not by damn communist filth and by their racist masters.

For example, go to

http://www.india-forum.com


and read any of the articles there.

No one owes you or an idiot like Vinay Lal a "detailed rebuttal" of all his lies.


If you live in Seattle, well, that's not that far from Sacramento. The time for people to wake up and counter the hatred spewed about us desis through the racist-written textbooks, is NOW - this is no time to remain clueless.

And you can choose either to stand up for what is right, or you can choose to win brownie (actually "coconut" ) points by wrting what makes the racists happy, like Vinay Lal, Madhav Deshpande, Romilla Thapar of all the other dhimmies. Its your life. 10 years from now you can look back and either feel good, or know that you are a jerk, depending on what you choose today. Good luck. May you choose right (try reading the articles at the above link).

Whom did you admire when you saw the movie "Gandhi"? Those ragged natives marching against hopeless odds? Or those nattily-dressed sepoys so smartly beating them to a pulp for wanting the same rights as all free people?

Oh, if you want to admire the Purveyors of Truth per Vinay Lal, be my guest:


http://irffanclub.blogspot.com/


Enjoy!

Ari Saja
Long Beach, CA, United States
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
21
Tendulkarji: Vinay Lal has just got off calling some 10,000 Indian Amercan adults murderers. I dont see the open terrace atop your shoulder asking for even a modicum of proof for this.

While the author lives up to his last name, you are a disgrace to yours!
Nikhil Malhotra
Nashville, United States
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
20
Less is said about Vinay Lal is better. He is black listed professor by his own student. Why he is dragging his nonsense in Indian magazine who encourage anti-India agenda and in bed with terrorist like Outlook . Why Vinay Lal is hidding? he knows if he write such type of nonsense he will sued. Look what happened to Witzel, got sued for is fraud theories.
Maharishi
San Francisco, United States
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
19
Read details about Vinay Lal who is not only support terrorit, Read his profile and you will find why gutter instructor gets space in Outlook


http://www.uclaprofs.com/profs/lal.html


Those who support terrorism are terrorist.
Maharishi
San Francisco, United States
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
18
When did Vinay lal become a hindu? Vinay lal, Angana -mediocre- but-buttugly- Chatterji and other brown sepoy scum seem to change colors all the time. And look at the fabulous company these guys keep, from evangelical missionaries, white neo-nazi supremacists to spittle licking Indian marxist sepoys. Just about anybody who will gladly dance at the slitting of hindu throats.

Isn't Vinay lal the same guy who is attacked by briun on their website for his support of terrorists and his anti-americanism?

I agree with the writer below that Outlook should allow a counterpoint. I cannot believe that an extremist like Vinay lal get's prime time coverage here.

The problem for Hindu Americans is that we don't fund academic research well enough. We need more foundations that will tell the stories we want told. History is never objective, He that controls the funding controls content. This coupled with dismantling of all south asia departments by squeezing funding should set things right.

This or these brown sepoys will continue to fuck us over and teach us that we are curry munching monster worshippers who never had any civilization till the europeans conquered us.
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Betelguese, USA
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
17

Most readers in this forum have written well. One little, inconvenient point they( and of course Vinay Lal and Raju Rajagopal) have missed is that Hinduism as a religion has never been really accepted or even really acknowledged by mainstream America. And now these self styled progessive activists want to demythologize Hinduism without at first seeing the need to acknowledge and establish it. Ridiculous! The problem with many of these so called secular progessives is that they have no soul-or heart.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
16
Hindusim was never "acknowldged" in America because these bastards were the gate keepers to this knowledge. Their cartel of "south asia" scholars have built careers denigrating hindus and hinduism. Add to this mix Evangelical christians who can't believe that the hindoo heathen can have anything meaningful to say and we get a heady brew!!

The Hindus unlike the moslems didn't have petro dollars to fund Hindu studies. But that is slowly changing. One more reason for the "south asia" fraternity to close ranks and stave off any move by the hindus that will impact their bread/butter.
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Betelguese, USA
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
15
This associated professor is well known for calling those who donated money to 9/11 Fire fighter's familys 'as those speading 'hate' becuase victims were non-muslim and the hijeckers were muslim.

Seems almost unbliveable, but it is true and on record. And yes he is also on record to call "Miraj " center a deep-cover hindutva organization.

I there is any doubt, just read what his students say in the link given here:

http://www.uclaprofs.com/profs/lal.html

The challenge in properly exposing the poison-pen radicalism of UCLA professor Vinay Lal certainly does not lie in a lack of proof. The problem arises instead in parsing Lal’s incredibly complex, lengthy writing style. What one writer might say in two lines and basic language, Lal will (in true academic style) state in two paragraphs filled with six-line sentences...

There are no doubt many ideas and convictions expressed in Lal’s owned published writings that are similar or identical to those of Hitler, Pol Pot, or Bin Laden.

This is what his students say..
Gyanmehta
cincinnati, usa
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
14
UCLA's Bruin Alumni Association lists Professor Vinay Lal's name along with the names of 29 other UCLA faculty members as being among the most "radical". A reading of the whole list with 30 names on it will convince anyone that the Alumni Association itself is a radical right-wing Bush-supporting group, with extreme anti-liberal, anti-Zionist and anti-leftist agenda. A similar group exists in Columbia University, and probably many other universities in this country, a reflection of the overflowing coffers of the extreme right-wing Republicans, especially the neocons. Being included in such an alumni list should be considered a badge of honor.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
13
Sorry, I meant pro-Zionist, not anti-Zionist, in my last post.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
12
Judging by the essay on uclaprofs.com, Vinay Lal appears to be a Marxist fanatic, the kind that civilized societies ought to be ashamed of for having in their midst. But I am glad though that America gave him asylum, thereby freeing us Indians of the damage he could have done to India if he wangled a position at JNU.
V Rajan
Chennai (Madras), India
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
11
Wah, Ghulam miyan wah. BruinAlumni is "extreme right wing", therefore Vinay Lal is cool - wah. Badge of honor? Vinay has already farted he is a "Hindu? What next? Stalin was an avatar of Lord Vishnu and Outlook is the Bhagvadgita? Oh, btw, what's your take on California Schools Proselytizing for Allah?
Nikhil Malhotra
Nashville, United States
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
10
California Schools Proselytize for Allah:


http://tinyurl.com/7nhg8
Nikhil Malhotra
Nashville, United States
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
9
"But I am glad though that America gave him asylum, thereby freeing us Indians of the damage he could have done to India if he wangled a position at JNU."

They do more damage to India staying outside than in India. If India is portrayed in America only as a land of snake charmers, bride burners and devil worshipping idolators , it is no small measure due to Indian, sorry, make that "south asian" leftists.

Vinay lal says that they have fought to keep stereotypes out of the mainstream whilst the truth is that the likes of his ilk have profited from maintaining these stereotypes. To see India backward and poor means more funding and illustrious careers for the Indian left.

No matter that not one from this category has contributed anything meaningful in any frontier of Human knowledge. The only Indians that have contributed usefully to america are the techno types that have played a substantial role in American Science and technology. The least America can do for them is give them a fair representation. Some obscure, mediocre, "South Asian" lick spittle History professor has no say in the right of the Hindus to represent themselves.
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Betelguese, USA
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
8
It is so good to see an article from Professor (I mean, ASSOCIATE Professor) Vinay Lal, and all the comments of his dear Readers.

In 2002-2003, Dr. Lal provided so many hours of entertainment for us during the hectic days when we were investigating the precise nature of the organizations funded by the IDRF. As the mouthpiece of the SABRANG/FOIL, Dr. Lal came up with howler after howler, (as the initial post from "ari saja" has kindly dug out). I don't know how we could have stayed awake through all those weeks, reading the turgid prose of the FOIL's products such as "PEOPLE's DEMOCRACY- OFFICIAL ORGAN OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF INDIA -MARXIST-LENINIST-MAOIST-PEOPLE'S WAR GROUP" etc.

Thanks, (associate) Professor Lal. The world needs humor, and you certainly provide it. Are you sure your school is not "Hysterics School"?
Narayanan Komerath
Atlanta, USA
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
7
Prof Vinay Lal's anti-Hindu bashing is well known. Prof Lal was ridiculed in every forum couple years ago for pushing a Christian medical facility in Miraj as a RSS front. As pointed out by other postor, he should be called Prof of Hysterics for providing the laughs rather than Prof of History.

Remember when Bayamiyan Buddha's were blown up by Taliban, Prof Lal lost no time justifying their actions.

Recently he's gone of record of stating that 7/7 London bombing victims deserved it and US President Bush is a terrorist.

No wonders he's made it into the august company of a handful prof who are on watch list of the Bruin Alumi of UCLA (hardly a 'Hindutva' group).

I'm surprised that Indian magazine like Outlook providing forum to a bunch of yellow journalists writers with a bigoted racists agenda from California like Rajagapoal and Lal.
Who's next, let me guess - Angana Chatterjee?

Sridhar M
Abany, United States
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
6
So called profs. like Lal and Raju Rajgoapal are not realising that their articles are actually helping Hindus to understand real-motives of anti-hindu forces. I should thank such anti-hindu idiots for updating common Hindus about the evil designs and mentality of these anti-Hindu and anti-Indian personalities. You guys are are living in a fools paradise if you think that by writing such things you can mould readers meantality. People like you are nesessary for the cause of Hinduism. More evil action from you, will ultimately generate more positive reaction from Indian masses.
Rahul
New Delhi, India
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
5
This letter shouldn't have made past editors for the most boring, unengaging writing style as well as reams of words without any content. I would not read beyond the first online page. A professor and a writer!!??
Viveka P
San Francisco, United States
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
4
I wish you ppl wouldn't attack a Distinguished Historian and South Asia Scholar, Dr, Vinay Lal, History (Associate)Professor from UCLA. Please review his credentials here:

http://www.history.ucla.edu/lal/


It took him 10 years from getting an MS till he got a PhD. Even after that, the poor fellow has been flunking the test for promotion to Full Professor for several years now - even at a mediocre Party School like UCLA's History School (Ranked somewhere in the Top 100,000 of History Schools). Unlike his FOIL Comrades Angana Cheaterji and Biju "UnaBomber" Matthew, who have been calling themselves "Professor" since they were little commies, Vinay Red works in a place where they may take a dim view of such things.

Having attended talks by all these "Scholars", and suffered through some of Vinay Red's classes, all I have to say is, Yeah, Perfessor, enjoy some uninhibited comments from people who don't depend on your KGB "fairness".

So should we bother trying to list ALL the Palpable Lies in his article and in his classes, like Seattle Tendulkar suggests? Well.. its gonna be a loooong summer..



Red Sardung
Los Angeles, United States
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
3
Nikhil, I agree with you that text books should not prosetylize. Mr Mansuri is trying to sell his religion in a text book, and this should not be permissible. Brief non-controversial and respectful introductions to all major religions including Islam, Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism etc, designed to create greater understanding between peoples would, in my view, be quite kosher. Teaching about religion is thus quite different from teaching history.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Feb 09, 2006 12:00 AM
2
Dear Mr. Faruki:

Given that you recognize the need to present all religions respectfully (and I agree 400%, as Gen. Musharraf would say), could you now go and look at the precise edits recommended to the California SBE by Prof. S. Bajpai, the Content Review Panel Expert Consultant, in early November? I am sure you can find that easily, or some other postor here can help you find those.

Then, please think before posting after that - Please consider what grounds Professor Witzel and his band of 47 thieves had for sending their hate-filled and idiotic letter to the SBE.

Consider what Witzel and the 47 thieves have ever done in the past 40 years to correct the errors in those textbooks, and after taking the 0 seconds it takes to count those, please revisit this article.

Consider how an Associate Professor of History at UCLA - supposedly a person paid to determine EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED AND WHEN - can be such a moron that he could not go and check into the facts - CAN such morons really find a parking place at UCLA?

And then you will be forced by your own conscience to agree with us - THAT VINAY LAL IS A DELIBERATE LIAR.

And OUTLOOK editors are idiots.

Sorry I have to put it so bluntly, but there it is.
Red Sardung
Los Angeles, United States
Feb 08, 2006 12:00 AM
1
Why is it that Vinay Lal is calling himself a Hindu? Isn't he a communist and is always involved in anti-hindu activities like sigining the petition against India Development and Releif fund? Will Vinay Lal sign a similar petition declaring that AID be investigated since it funds violent communist organizations in India like DYFI? Will Vinay Lal also send a letter to the California State board of education outlining how Islamic textbooks have been sugar-coated and inaccurate?
Abhijit Bagal
Albany, USA
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