Islamic Law
Ayatollahs All
Time for a counter-fatwa. Stop the trigger-happy mullah's law that only hits the victim, feeds bigotry and lends itself to lampooning.
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Ridiculous Fatwas

The Ulema at Deoband do not only engage in complex theological debate. Sometimes they plumb the depths of the ludicrous in response to questions from the public. More so, because of the solemn manner in which they are answered—as fatwas. We culled out these gems from a 10-volume set of Fatawai Darul Uloom.

Q:
If while breaking wind it does not smell or sound, does it still break the wazu (cleaning before prayers)?
A: If you are sure you broke wind and you are not under a false illusion and are not physically challenged, then you should do the wazu again.

Q: What is the punishment for a man who tells his wife that having sex with her is like having sex with his mother?
A: There is no punishment for what a man says in private to his wife.

Q: If a chicken defecates in my well, has it become impure? How do I purify my well?
A: Throw out 110 buckets of water from your well. Then it will be purified and the water can be used for wazu.

Q: If my bathroom does not have high walls and a roof, should I still bathe in the nude?
A: If the walls are high enough to cover your body then bathe in the nude. If not, then don't bathe naked.

Q: Will Allah accept my prayers if I pass wind while doing my namaz?
A: Only if you have kept the wind within you and restrained from releasing it are your prayers valid. If not, you should say your prayers again.

***

Salma, Novelist: ‘Nothing they say seems to affect menfolk. It is undemocratic, beyond reforms. What we really need is a fatwa against all fatwas.’

 

Shaista Amber, All India Muslim Women’s Personal Law Board: ‘Sania is first an Indian. She is wearing the dress of her profession. Why should these men comment? Fatwas embarrass Muslim women.’

 

Syed Mustafa Siraj, Writer: ‘An aberration in the Muslim community and the media goes to town with it. As for fatwas, no Muslim takes them seriously.’

 

Nurur Rehman Barkati, Shahi Iman of Calcutta :‘Uneducated mullahs with regressive, dogmatic views issue such fatwas. But most Muslims treat them as a bad joke.’

 

Mushirul Hassan, Vice-Chancellor, Jamia Millia: ‘Islam does not accord a formal status to the ulema. The whole practice of issuing fatwas emerges from this search for legitimacy.’

 

Imtiaz Ahmad, Sociologist: ‘Allah revealed the Quran for all but considering the theological illiteracy, the right to offer opinions has become a Mullah’s license.’

 

***

"Sheikh saheb se rasmo raah na ki/ Shukr hai zindagi tabah na ki (I did not engage with the religious sheikh/ Thank god I did not destroy my life)"

—Faiz Ahmad Faiz

Irreverence is a finely honed tradition among the Muslim elite. All the great Urdu poets from Ghalib to Faiz have poked gentle fun at the ulema. Yet there is a great mass of Indian Muslims who cannot take recourse to elegant verse when confronted with a religious dilemma. Some are neo-converts anxious not to commit any sin in their journey to a promised paradise. A few place their concerns before the local mullah. They ask a question; the mullah ponders and gives a reply, sometimes in writing. That is a fatwa in Sunni Islam, which is followed by the majority of Indian Muslims.

Yet, ever since Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini gave the fatwa demanding the death of Salman Rushdie, worldwide there has been an impression that a fatwa is a command or edict. In Shia tradition, an imam's fatwa is binding but not every two-bit mullah can issue one. But as Maulana Mehmood Madani, president of the Jamaat-e-Ulema-e-Hind says: "In Sunni Islam, a fatwa is nothing more than an opinion. It is just a view of a mufti and is not binding in India. In principle, only those Muslims who wish to live by Sharia laws should ask us for fatwas."

Any Muslim can ask for a fatwa.

 
 
In Sunni Islam, a fatwa is not a command or an edict, it's just an opinion of a maulana about a query.
 
 
Ever since it faced public and media flak for issuing some controversial fatwas four months ago, the influential Darul Uloom seminary at Deoband has refused to entertain queries from media persons and says it will not issue any fatwas that may be "political in nature". So Outlook approached the Islamic Fiqh Academy in Delhi's Jamia Nagar, where highly educated maulanas monitor fatwas and are authorised to issue them. The question was: As a Muslim woman, is it appropriate for me to work and to use cosmetics like lipstick when I go to office?

Maulana Fahim Akhtar Nadvi, who issued the fatwa in October 2005, stressed that the reply would be according to the Sharia position as they understood it. To sum up the fatwa: "In Islam, a woman's expenses are first to be borne by her father and then her husband. But if there are mitigating circumstances, she may go out to work. She can dress in a manner outlined in the Sharia—only the face, hands and feet can be exposed. The head should be covered. A woman can adorn herself and use cosmetics at home. But if she looks provocative outside, she will only invite trouble for herself. You are therefore advised not to use make-up outside the house and to dress simply while fulfilling your responsibility at work."

The good maulana's advice is not very different from what the Delhi Police or one's grandparents might say. But because it comes with the words fatwa tagged on, it can be hyped to sound sensational. Besides, there is a genuine problem of crazy and downright stupid fatwas being issued by mullahs without a thought of the consequences. Says sociologist Imtiaz Ahmad: "The situation has deteriorated to a point where any little mufti freely issues fatwas irrespective of whether he has the requisite knowledge. Ideally, there should be no reason for seeking such opinions. Allah revealed the Quran for all mankind. But given the fact that the large majority of Muslims in India are theologically illiterate, as they cannot understand the Quran even if they read it, the right to offer a theological opinion has ended up as a licence and a free-for-all."

What's worse is that little can be done to change the situation. All the Muslims Outlook spoke to were unhappy with the ridiculous fatwas. But no one wants to to encroach on civil liberties or take away the freedom of expression. They all say it's really up to Muslim institutions to issue some sort of directive to curb the fatwa epidemic. The problem is not every village mufti takes his orders from an institution. He is an independent institution who reserves the right to say what he likes.

Mushirul Hassan, vice chancellor of Jamia Millia University, gives a historical perspective: "The real problem is that Islam does not accord a formal status to the ulema though Muslim communities recognise them as guardians of Islamic law.
 
 
As with all other religions, Muslims too have their middlemen with archaic and ludicrous ideas.
 
 
Thus the ulema have been searching for sources of legitimacy from the very beginning. The whole practice of issuing fatwas emerges from this search for legitimacy." In several Islamic countries, there are ministries for religious affairs that monitor fatwas. But the many freedoms in India also make it a tower of Babel. No one can legally be stopped from issuing fatwas unless they violate the law. That is precisely what happened in Madhya Pradesh last month when a maulana issued a fatwa nullifying a divorce granted by a civil court. The upshot was that the cleric was arrested.

But no one can be arrested for expressing an opinion on the length of Sania Mirza's skirt. Similarly, Deoband cannot be legally sanctioned for saying that Muslim women should only contest elections wearing veils. Neither can a cleric be held accountable for giving an opinion that a woman who has been raped by her father-in-law could no longer stay with her husband (Deoband issued a fatwa on a hypothetical problem which the media then applied to the Imrana rape case).

But what's aggravating the situation is the constant media spotlight. Many of the recent fatwa controversies were media-inspired. Individuals from the press asked questions and got a reply that made for a great story. There is no doubt that when it comes to "Muslim issues", the media the world over can go on a feeding frenzy. Well-known Calcutta-based writer Syed Mustafa Siraj says that the attention given to Muslim issues is patently unfair. "I know of several cases where grave injustice is done to Hindu women but the media does not care. But let an aberration take place in the Muslim community and the media will go to town with it. As for fatwas, no Muslim takes them seriously." The Shahi Imam of Calcutta, Nurur Rehman Barkati, says that fatwas such as those issued about Imrana and Sania Mirza are irrelevant. "Uneducated mullahs with dogmatic and regressive views issue such fatwas. But most Muslims treat them as a bad joke," he says.

The media is indeed part of the fatwa story. But conversely, what is often ignored is the simmering anger of many Muslim women. Salma, a novelist and poet in Tamil Nadu, points out that every fatwa issued in India in recent times has been anti-women. "Nothing that they ever say or do seems to affect menfolk," she says. "And there's no point in asking what we need to streamline the process of issuing fatwas. It is an undemocratic practice in the first place and no reform can make a fatwa better. What we really need is a fatwa against all fatwas."

In Lucknow, another woman created quite a stir when in February 2004 she formed an All India Muslim Women's Personal Law Board. Shaista Amber is not a liberal or Left activist. She is a god-fearing Muslim who maintains the dress code and dutifully says her prayers. But she is very angry: "The holy Quran gives women so many rights. But those men on the Muslim Law Board who are all political people don't want women to get anything. They manipulate the system to impose their will on us through a faulty interpretation of Muslim personal law. It is completely wrong to issue fatwas such as those about Imrana and Sania. They should stop as they use these fatwas to embarrass Muslim women. Sania is an Indian first. She is wearing the dress of her profession. Why should these men comment?"

Probably because if you ask a stupid question, you get a stupid answer. An individual understanding of a faith and the holy book can be deeply satisfying. Yet the roadside cleric or even the ulema of a respectable seminary like Deoband are often intellectually stifling. As with all religions, Muslims too are stuck with their middlemen whose worldview is so limited that they can so easily become objects of ridicule. The problem is that, far too often, they embarrass an entire community.

Whenever they come under attack, the all- powerful men who manage Muslim institutions often resort to victimhood. Maulana Madani, for instance, scoffs at the "media-inspired" controversy. "The problem is," he says, "whenever they see my beard they say Muslim, Deoband, Taliban, terrorist. The prejudice is in the eye of the beholder." All the honourable members of the law board such as spokesperson Qasim Rasool Ilyas can hold forth at length about "a Sangh parivar mind-set".

They are probably right about deeply held prejudices against the community. Particularly when many Muslims believe that there is a global war being waged against Islam. But perhaps that is precisely why Muslim clerics should be particularly hesitant about issuing fatwas. Indeed, Deoband already appears to have got the message and has set up a committee to monitor all fatwas. Yet in such a large country, where there are so many schools of Islam, it is virtually impossible to enforce a code. Perhaps the roadside muftis and maulanas will soon be shamed into shutting up.

The Muslim dilemma is perhaps best summed up in the words of the poet Akbar Allahabadi, who had loved his people, even as he constantly cursed them: "Qaum ke gar paas baitho, Qaum ki gali suno/ Qaum se gar door baitho, taana-e-hali suno/ Maro goli in saboh ko, dat ke qawali suno" (If you sit with your people, hear their curses/ If you sit away, hear their taunts/ Shoot them all and just listen to qawalis).

 




By Saba Naqvi Bhaumik with Jaideep Mazumdar in Calcutta and S. Anand in Chennai

Censorship
Some say the Sharia courts offer speedy and cheap justice. Others say they are regressive.
Censorship
Watch your word. Or get egg on your face. Culture cops brook no argument on received wisdom.
Anjali Puri
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Sania Mirza, Rahul Dholakia, Khushboo, Mangal Pandey, Manmohan Singh, L.K. Advani, Jo Bole So Nihaal, Shyam Benegal, Sins...
 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Dec 19, 2005 12:00 AM
189
I have to agree with Ajit that Congress, Congressi publications, as well as the secular Muslim leadership (or whatever passes for it) should have taken a different and a more outspoken stand on the Shah Bano case and on the fatwa on "Satanic Verses". If they had, we would have been much further ahead now than we are today.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 19, 2005 12:00 AM
188
It is clear that either you lack the ability to edit or specialise in putting words in people's mouths. How can you ever be taken seriously?
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Dec 19, 2005 12:00 AM
187
Vinod Mehta,

I can understand letters being edited for reasons of space, but I was shocked to see the following published under my name in your latest issue:

What a clever attempt at being an apologist for the mullahs by projecting only the harmlessly absurd fatwas! Pseudo-secularists were dismissive when Arun Shourie wrote his book The World of Fatwas more than one-and-a-half decades ago, and called him a Sanghi. They never flayed the triple talaq, but were quick to criticise a ban on Salman Rushdie’s Satanic Verses. These only provided fodder to fanatics. But for such acts, Babri Masjid should be still standing.

--

I did NOT say that your lot criticised the ban on Rushdie's book and from now on I will not trust a word you publish because your intentions/ability are absolutely clear: I had to wade through 35 pages of your website to find my original letter of Dec 6, 2005 (currently on Pg no 24 of 35:):

What a clever attempt at being an apologist for the medieval minded mullahs by showing only the harmelssly absurd ones. When Arun Shourie wrote his book The World of Fatwas, more than a decade and a half back, these pseudo-secularists were dismissive and called him a Sanghi, as usual, as if that was an answer by itself, but that's because he also shows how these fatwas impinge on and destroy the lives of many, particularly women. In stead of joining issue with any of those really ridiculous fatwas about divorce where even if a husband were to say talaq, talaq, talaq, even jokingly, or in an inebriated state, the poor woman has to get married to someone else, consummate that marriage and THEN only can she get REMARRIED to her own husband, even when he says that he had not meant it. If only Vinod Mehta and his cronies had defiantly stood up and denounced the ban on Satanic Verses, the reactionaries wouldn't have had such a free run since then, and, hell, even that goddamned Babri Masjid would still be standing. Congress and its supporters are the vilest communalists in this country post-indpedence and it is because of them that we have the Hindutva flourishing. Look at how they are encouraging the Shiv Sainiks - Rane and co - and happily co-opting them, the way they co-opted Shankar Singh Vagehla in Gujarat. They are the root cause why the Sangh and the Muslim fundamentalists have grown to be what they have. They are the Frankensteins who have created these monsters and either still haven't learned, the bloody morons, or are cynical enough to happily keep doing their villainies, and diverting attention by calling others communal. They are corrupt (Mitrokhin, Volcker), communal (Ayodhya locks, Bhindrawale, Shah Bano, Satanic Verses) and 'unconstitutional' as per the SC. Where is the murmur from that poodle?
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Dec 18, 2005 12:00 AM
186
Please ignore typo errors/spelling mistakes.
Thanks
Ahmad Bashir
Media Watch
Mumbai, India
Dec 18, 2005 12:00 AM
185
Mr.Lalit,
---------
I Understand that you are a buisness man and time is imp.for you. We never mentioned that Muslims are poor because of anybody else.

But there are other important issues need to be addressed, rather then playing with 'Islamic terminologies'.

## "It is not the purpose of Outlook to promote communal harmony, or be your spokemen."##

If not then what is the purpose of publishing such an article, was it a news? was it not disturbing a group of people in the country?
a small example of discussion as a result can be seen in this forum itself !!
Can we discuss on medical topics like this? no because without having medical study with dont discuss it, a person discussing economics without any authority we consider him fool, but when it comes to religion, every body starts porking their nose , and restrict them not only to theire own religion but about others. (example: go throught the discussion in the forum )

##" The media has only one purpose, and that is to bring news and opinions in a neutral and objective manner." ##

What was the objective here ?
Understnad from Mr Faruki that it was in continuation with previous articles" But those article/issues were not so much publiciss in the city as this was ?

Ahmad Basheer


-------------



In Europe also despite free education ,muslims
are behind the others. Despite many economic opportunities they suffer from a lot of unemployment and poverty.

Most muslims are muslims first and last, hate other communities. After this , how can they expect help from their adverseries. In any case
India is a poor country, and all the people who do well, do so because of their family support or by themselves. The government certainly does not help.

It is not the purpose of Outlook to promote communal harmony, or be your spokemen.
The media has only one purpose, and that is to bring news and opinions in a neutral and objective manner.

Through out the muslim world media is subject to fatwas, laws of blasphemy and pressure from fundamentalist groups.

Remember you are liveing in India, and as yet it is not a Islamic country-and thank god for that.
Media Watch
Mumbai, India
Dec 18, 2005 12:00 AM
184
Ahmed Bashir
-------------

If muslims are poor and uneducated then its not the fault of the hindu's or anyone else.

In Europe also despite free education ,muslims
are behind the others. Despite many economic opportunities they suffer from a lot of unemployment and poverty.

Most muslims are muslims first and last, hate other communities. After this , how can they expect help from their adverseries. In any case
India is a poor country, and all the people who do well, do so because of their family support or by themselves. The government certainly does not help.

It is not the purpose of Outlook to promote communal harmony, or be your spokemen.
The media has only one purpose, and that is to bring news and opinions in a neutral and objective manner.

Through out the muslim world media is subject to fatwas, laws of blasphemy and pressure from fundamentalist groups.

Remember you are liveing in India, and as yet it is not a Islamic country-and thank god for that.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Dec 18, 2005 12:00 AM
183
Ahmad Basheer,

Saba's article has to be read in the context of previous pieces in OUTLOOK on the subject of fatwas, especially the articles on the Imrana case. The wide spread negative publicity and misinformation regarding the Imrana case made it necessary to clarify the definition and status of fatwas in Muslim community.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 18, 2005 12:00 AM
182
Your story demonstrates poor homework. Quite evidently you do not have any understanding as to what goes into the making of an Ayatollah. You need to make yourself aware of the phenomenal level of learning, experience and exposure to jurisprudence apart from other disciplines that a Shia scholar needs to possess before he is recognised as an Ayatollah. Strange that your story talks of the Ulema at Deoband and heads it as 'Ayatollahs All'
javed nathani
Mumbai, India
Dec 18, 2005 12:00 AM
181
This is regarding the article ‘Ayatollah All’ (Dec-12).
This article seems to be written with the intention of spreading hatred against Muslims.
The topic, which is not at all an issue, was not worth to be presented as a cover story. Design and graphic were creating misconception about Islam.

The article itself has a quotation at the center on the page-18 “In Sunni Islam (again an attmpt to divide Islam) a fatwa is not a command or edict, it is just an opinion about a query”. When it was clear to the writer that it is just an opinion then why she is making hue and cry on this.

Again with each fatwas, adding the word ‘Ridiculous’ is indeed very ridiculous attempt. The questions asked were stupid and the answers are simple, no one is forcing anybody to follow it and it is one’s freewill to accept or reject the opinion.
In fact there are so many ridiculous beliefs in other religions, Bowing head in front of stones and animals looks more ridiculous then stopping one to have bathe nude in an open area.

If the article is written with sympathy to Indian Muslims, and if we are really concerned about Indian Muslims, then we should concentrate on their genuine problems. i.e Illiteracy and poverty which is the problem of more then 90% of Muslims.
Nobody is worried about the Fatwas and not even 1% are affected by it.

The Fatwa comes into picture only if somebody wants to know what he should do in the religious matters for which clear instructions are not available in Quran or in teachings of Prophet Muhammed (Peace be upon Him).

When we go to Doctor for consultation, it is not necessary that every doctor will have the same opinion; the same case is with these Fatwas. Any wrong prescription by doctor cannot be told as the fault of medical study and research, the same thing applies to the Fatwas and Islam.

For the cure of illness, would you take the advise of any mechanic, sweeper or peon, then how come the writer took the opinions of the Sociologist, Novelists etc. to support her views.

To find such article in Outlook was a shock for readers who consider Outlook a respected magazine, covering serious issues. It was not at all expected from the magazine like Out look to publish an article, which spreads religious confrontation. Though the article itself was not that bitter as it was designed and presented. We hope that care will be taken in the future, not to hurt the sentiments of the readers by publishing these kinds of articles.

As a public magazine we expect articles, which unite people and bring communal harmony rather then dividing people and creating disturbance and hatred amongst each other.

As a media observing organization we demand apology from Outlook magazine for such communal article and in future we expect you to refrain from publishing and accepting such articles to avoid boycott of your magazine.


Best Regards,

Ahmad Basheer
Secretary
Media Watch
Media Watch
Mumbai, India
Dec 16, 2005 12:00 AM
180
"RIDICULOUS" cover story
The cover story,'AYATOLLAHS ALL'dated 12th december 2005,is anything but necessery.It is an irony unsurpassed when the article speaks about the media hype that is created about anything that happens in the muslim community,while itself blowing an issue related to the community completely out of proportion.
A.M.Jehaangir Basha
hyderabad, India
Dec 12, 2005 12:00 AM
179
Another informative report from the NYT :


http://tinyurl.com/9fpp3
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 12, 2005 12:00 AM
178
I loathe typos....Have seen a couple more in my message below: line 3 from the bottom: "busily". Line two from the bottom: "destroy".

India will, in short, become one huge slum of Islam.
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 12, 2005 12:00 AM
177
Three typos in the message below:

line 5, "Easy";

line 14, "to more";

line 15, "against"

By the way, I ought to add: India will owe huge thanks for this beautiful future to our irreplacebale Mahatmajee....Not to mention the noble contribution of dear old chummy Panditjee.

Jai Hind !!!!!
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 12, 2005 12:00 AM
176
Lalit:


What is a Hindu bigot, you ask. A person who does not recognise that the cruellest thing happening in India today is the caste Hindus' oppression of Dalits. A person who still has a good word to say for the caste system, at least in the past.

What will India be like in 10 or 20 years, you ask. East to tell: the North-East will either have broken away to form a separate Muslim state or there will be a bloody insurgency tying the Indian Army down to achieve this. In the rest of India, the cities will be the scene of daily bloody Hindu-Muslim riots. The politicians will compete with each other to curry favour with the huge and fast growing Muslim population. India will be as explosive and riot-torn as in the time of Partition. It will sink into utter economic ruin as foreign investors and rich Indians flee tomore peaceful lands. China and Pakistan will be pushing daily aagainst India in the border areas and busliy funding and arming terrorists to destory India. China will be far on the road to becoming the most powerful country in the World.
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 12, 2005 12:00 AM
175
4 typos in the message below:

line 4, "blood"


line 15, "to"

line 24, "certainly"

line 30, "in itself"
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 12, 2005 12:00 AM
174
Adi and Lalit:

Adi makes a big deal about the supposed criminality of Dalits and Tribals converting to religions other than Hinduism...But are the Brahmins and upper castes in Hinduism prepared to take the Dalits and Tribals to their hearts as bllod-brothers, and what is more, generously open their wallets to lift them out of their condition of abject, cruel oppression? Not a chance in Hell....We have seen what has been done in nearly 60 years to uplift Dalits: Only token, half-hearted gestures at best. The truth you and I know is that the upper castes utterly hate and despise and abominate the Dalits and Tribals, do not even consider them as human beings. The average caste Hindu would be far less worried about letting a Christian into his house or marry his daughter than a Dalit...You know this. Then why in the name of heaven deny the Dalit even the right to move ot another religion that might treat him a little less contemptuously? True, his hopes of full equality may be illusory. But as some Dalits say who have quit Hinduism: If we do not obtain full dignity, at least we can tell ourselves that our new religion has no history of regarding us as degraded beings, and our children can hope to leave the old social contempt behind.

Don't be stupid enough to give the usual silly upper caste response: that the Americans treat Blacks badly. First, they certainluy don't treat them as badly as the caste Hindus treat Dalits. Second, the Blacks are not regarded by US Whites as part of their community, whereas caste Hindus DO regard Dalits and Tribals as members of their community: else why all the fear and fuss about their moving to other religions? The US Whites don't care a hoot what religion the Blacks convert to, by the way. That is itself points to the key difference: To keep their political domination of India against the Muslims the upper castes in India NEED Dalits and Tribals to be counted as Hindus....The US Whites don't face an internal Muslim political threat, like upper caste Hindus in India.
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 12, 2005 12:00 AM
173
Forced marriages in
Pakistan.
------------------------------
>Daily Times ,Lahore has an editorial article on force marriages arranged by Pakistani parents resident in Britain for their daughters to cousins in Pakistan.

The British government have a special cell in their high commission in Islamabad to help these women return back to Britain.

It is strange that after severl generations of liveing in Britin these people still resort to force and compulsion . These women are used to relative freedom in Britain, and forced marriages to country cousins is a nightmare.

Maybe a fatwa should be given to ban such marriages. By the way why are muslims in India so little interested in what is happening to
their own coreligionists in Pakistan. This should help in improveing the state of muslim women and take their mind of the BJP and hindu fanatics.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Dec 10, 2005 12:00 AM
172
A short comment.

Dalits, muslims, other minority are above 50 % of the population of India. The Brahmins are about 2 % or less.

It seems unbelievable that the 2 % of the popultaion can cause so much harm, Its like the Nazi's abusing the tiny jewish minority for all ills of the world.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Dec 10, 2005 12:00 AM
171
hahaha
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Dec 10, 2005 12:00 AM
170
Christianity does not gel with multiculturalism/secularism, Islam does not. So for who is this secularism in India and what for? It is for the card carrying anti-hindu brigade to carry out their hate campaign against hindus in the name of secularism.
This 'unity in diversity' which is the central concept of casteist Hindus has been hijacked by seculars to mean for different religions when it is supposed to mean for - united hindus with diverse caste with none exploiting other. In fact it should not even matter. It should be completely invisible just like people with different languages interact with each other in India.
The hindus youth and the films should get on with life and start talking about something else instead of this continuous monotonous self-flagellation. Youth energy should be put into more productive use.
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Dec 10, 2005 12:00 AM
169
Since some people seem to understand economics -

Monotheism is a rich man's game. Conversion and ex-communication are against the interest of their sheeps. Monotheism is run like a company if members become too voluble and start questioning things or powers of their boss. They have three power to control them. One is conversion where by the power of the existing shareholders is diluted. The new convert is not only overzealous and willing to do things that old members do not do. He gets paid very well by his rich masters. Two, the power of ex-communication this not only effectively seals his employment oppurtunity since the rich man can use his influence. The other is physical threat of force. The third option is war which he uses to deflect attention of the poor slaves towards an external enemy.

In casteism since it does not allow conversion/expulsion the members have to listen to each other and make concession to each other within the caste for them to live a harmonious and productive life

So it is in the best interest of monotheistic followers to stop these three options for their own interest.
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Dec 10, 2005 12:00 AM
168
GHULAM Y FARUKI

The same here also. replace caste system with islam and monotheistic with anachronism
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Dec 10, 2005 12:00 AM
167
ADI. >>>> Is it OK to tell a Dalit that the entire reason why he is poor is that Brahmins enslaved him?

It is OK for me to tell a Dalit or you or anybody what I want to tell. A lie, a truth or whatever. It must be upto the individual to decide what is right/ wrong etc. Who are you to decide for an individual? So Whats wrong if foreign evangelical converts with whatever means, provided its not at Sword?

A common arguement is that its using foreign fund. So be it. U also bring the funds. Try retaining into your fold.

On the other hand, what are we Hindus doing with Dalits really? Are you saying that you have not noticed a Dalit abused in last month? Is it not illigal in India to abuse a Dalit? So why did you not report it to law enforcement agency? Are you not participating in the crime by being passive? What if you somebody murdered/ or a burgalry? What normally would you do? (Suppose you are not afraid of revenge) In most Dalit abuse case, you can be sure that there will not be a revenge against you. So why wont you report it? Ask urself these questions.

OK let me compare this in more commerical terms. For Dalits, Hinduism is like State company providing services, where the state company is important and the consumer is supposed to contribute.

On the other hand the missionaries are the Private enterprise. Private enterprise, whatever be their follies are consumer focussed.

So for Dalits it makes much more sense to choose a private enterprise.

Does it make sense to you. Difficult. But try !!
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 10, 2005 12:00 AM
166
Mr.Dinesh BC,
Careful what you mean by "Anti conversionanists" - it is simply not a matter of "denying Dalits to choose a religion of their choice" - it is a matter of ethics. Is it OK to tell a Dalit that the entire reason why he is poor is that Brahmins enslaved him? Is there no role that the British Colonial system played in his poverty? Or the great Islamic kingdoms? Are there no poverty stricken Brahmins? Is Hinduism the sole cause of his misery? It is this singling out of vulnerable Hinduis to convert to absurd belief systems that galls "Anti conversionists".
A Dalit has every right to claim the same priviliges as an "upper caste" Hindu. That is what I believe and I am sure there are many that share my viewpoint. A Hindu should have the right to rectify his religion in accordance to this view. That is one perspective of a so-called "Anti conversionist". If that is "bigoted" to you, I am not sure what a "liberal" Hindu is - someone who bends over and asks for a spanking from a foreign evangelical perhaps?
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Dec 10, 2005 12:00 AM
165
Lalit, Let me answer you on it. Who is bigoted Hindu? a) One who says castism is history. b) Anti conversionanists, because they are denying Dalits to choose a religion of their choice c) People who do not report a caste abuse.

Bigoted Islamist? Frankly, a good muslim is bigoted by definition.This is per my understanding of quaran, however limited. I have neither time nor energy to read through everything of Islam. But atleast from superficial readings of quran, it does appear that the text itself is bigoted piece of work.

Yet if you surf through the net, even Jews accept that Muslims were comparitively tolerant than Christians, historically speaking. That comparitively is a broad term though.

Atleast in UK, I do not know if something is wrong with me; the people I get along best are muslims. And some of them have been extremely generous and helpful to me. How a bigoted species be so helpful sometimes beats me.

Or should we spin it and say that bigoted muslims are actually the secular media in India?
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 10, 2005 12:00 AM
164
Thomas Nile
-----------

Who do consider are the bigoted Hindus in this current debate.?? Who are the bigoted muslims.??

Neheed has been explaining Islam to us. But no Hindu has written about Hinduism.

By the way what do the debaters think of social behaviour in the west. Are people in the west moral or immoral, because they live a rather free life,??

How will the world be in another 10 to 20 years.
For example India, Pakistan, middleeast, the West and China. ??

The comments about these will be most interesting.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Dec 09, 2005 12:00 AM
163
>> "even you cannot resist the temptation of Root causes for terror!"

Dinesh, I have never justified terrorism. Innumerable analysts have tried to understand its cause, root or otherwise. BTW, did you see BBC's three part series "The Power of Nightmares" by Adam Curtis? It has had a very limited theatrical release in USA, so I probably will not be able to see it.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 09, 2005 12:00 AM
162
SHAHID KAPADIA >FACT IS A FACT

What is Fact? :)!!!!!!

GHULAM Y FARUKI >>> Making some rational justification for the caste system in this day and age is somewhat anachronistic.

Agreed FREE SPEACH is not the best Hindu Secular voice, but what about you Ghulam? You are the most sane Muslim voice in Outlook....yet, even you cannot resist the temptation of Root causes for terror!
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 09, 2005 12:00 AM
161
Making some rational justification for the caste system in this day and age is somewhat anachronistic. To depict it is a bulwark against monotheistic religions takes the cake.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 09, 2005 12:00 AM
160
FreespeecH:

Caste and the division it causes among Hindus certainly hugely aided Islamic expansion in India. It is still doing so. Well, if you can't give it up, that's OK by me. India will go to Islam.
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 09, 2005 12:00 AM
159
passing gas, passing wind what the shit we care ?
You can write chapters about it, hell you can write whole book about it. You can spend billions of rial or all the time you bums have to justify it as people do to justify intelligent design or creationism.
But when you interfere with other people or when you study in madrasas and demand reservation that is a problem.
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Dec 09, 2005 12:00 AM
158
the article "ridiculious fatwas" is really ridiculos. what is wrong in a fatwa that the "wuzu" which every muslim has to perform before every namaz is nullified if he passes wind ? it is a fact and a truth which is applicable to each and every muslim in this world. i dont think that anything is ridiculous in this matter as it may not be understood by many other people of other faiths. FACT IS A FACT.
shahid kapadia
surat, India
Dec 09, 2005 12:00 AM
157
Fact 1. Wealth is determined by the kind of work people do.
Fact 2. Muslims are poors
Conclusion. The wealth of the people is determined by the religion one belongs to.

Let us abolish religion.

What kind of analysis is this ?


Casteism has been the bulwark against monotheistic expansionism and not some imaginary individual courage. That is also responsible for the freedom of everything we talk about. It does not allow one single anything to dominate the whole religion. It prevents the formation of megalomaniac like the monotheistic religion regularly produces every 50 years or so. Granted if casteism is abolished then we can produce a world conqueror but then we will be no different from monotheistic religion and we will be on a regular dose/hit of jihad/crusades on a world level and the poor people(in our present case the dalits) will be the one who will ultimately die. The monotheistic religion has been using slaves for crusades/jihad as way of eliminating their internal poor population for centuries.
The trick to world domination if that is what the geniuine 'abolish casteism' brigade fantasizes about is to have unity with casteism. Again this is nothing to do with Varna.
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Dec 09, 2005 12:00 AM
156
Adi and Giri:

Can't you see the obvious? No intelligent person today is interested in sitting around endlessly figuiring out whether or not in some sense caste was justified, or exists in some way in all cultures, etc. Caste Hindus like to do this. The plain fact is that Hinduism is being destroyed by caste. It is because of caste that Hindus lack even the minumum of political unity. If caste is not got rid of, and that quickly, Hinduism will be steadily ground down by Islamic expansionism. I am not interested in haggling with you about caste in some abstruse, rareified way. Suffice it to say that the Indian mind has been rotted by the whole horrible idea for too long and Hindus have no future if they can't get rid of it. Hindus will have to choose: IT IS EITHER GETTING RID OF CASTE OR ACCEPTING ISLAM.
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 09, 2005 12:00 AM
155
Hi GIRI, how many sakhas have you attended? RSS is outdated, just like communism. The earlier you realise this less the pain you will have in coping with its demise. It has crossed "Use Before date". Unless it re-invents itself completely, there is no hope left.
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 09, 2005 12:00 AM
154
NAHEED,

by the way what is the reasoning behind Burka ?

The reasoning you are giving is for which faith(Sunnis or shias). I understand your reasoning about one Islam, but I just need to know so that I can understand the whole instead of taking bits and pieces from here and there and ending up making a completely new religion.
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Dec 09, 2005 12:00 AM
153
Fact 1. Wealth is determined by the kind of work people do.
Fact 2. Caste does not restrict people from doing any kind of work.
Conclusion. The wealth of the people is determined by the caste one belongs to.

What kind of analysis is this ?
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Dec 09, 2005 12:00 AM
152
Hi ADI, again root cause. Stop it yaar. dont give bullocks. Castism is a scare, worse than anything in India. There is no justification and any attempt to invent one is stupid and as intolerable as finding justification for terror. Some people just do it and they are rascals.
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 09, 2005 12:00 AM
151
Absolutely you are right mate. Infact, I would do exactly what you do, excepting for the fact that I get scared myself in process when I suggest Islam. I just cant imagine my daughter getting caught in Islamic loop. Its a nightmare, generally, if I were not a Hindu (& by defn, a coward) I will prefer death. Never mind my emotional pouring.

But honestly Dalits must be converted to Christanity or Budhism, which would create least friction. My reason of thought for such is a) Its imposible to create new religion b) Ordinary people do need a God, real or imaginary...if only to keep hope against hopes alive. c) Its not effective if you ask people to believe in no god. d) There is no Polyhtheism mission to otherwise effectively convert them to believing of the sort you mentioned.

Dalit in Hinduism is horror for Dalits. Dalit in Islam is horror to Hindus!!! Middle path is generally the best one.
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 09, 2005 12:00 AM
150
Thomas Nile,
You are an agnostic like me and I agree with much of what you have to say. While I don't deny caste prejudice among Hindus, I think it would be an interesting exercise for you to read a book that I came across some time ago: "Castes of Mind" by Nicholas B. Dirks. It will give you a perspective on the institution of Caste as it exists today and it's roots.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Dec 09, 2005 12:00 AM
149
You'd have also heard the ususal "no compulsion in religion" stuff...
Here is the treatment of apostates.. And this too from the website of "scholars" headed by Dr. Yusuf Qardawi,

http://www.islamonline....atwaE&cid=1119503544134


It goes without saying that, leaving Islam is the ugliest and the worst form of disbelief (kufr) in Almighty Allah. It is technically called ridda (apostasy from Islam), and someone who leaves Islam is called a murtadd (apostate).

The prescribed punishment for a murtadd:



If a sane person who has reached puberty voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be punished.þ In such a case, it is obligatory for the caliph (or his representative) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed.þ

No one besides the caliph or his representative may kill the apostate. If someone else kills him, the killer is disciplined (for arrogating the caliph's prerogative and encroaching upon his rights, as this is one of his duties).
.......
Selvan
Boston, United States
Dec 08, 2005 12:00 AM
148
Typo in line 9 of the message below: it should be "polytheism".
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 08, 2005 12:00 AM
147
Hasn't everybody seen that arguing with Muslims is useless?

Dinesh C:

My view of Christianity? I will disappoint you, I'm afraid. I think it is a variation of Judaism, like Islam. All three are totalitarian and deny free thought. Only one authorised God, only one "final" book and prophet. Fortunately for the West, it ceased to be ruled by this wretched totalitarian fantasy by the time of the Renaissance, when men rediscovered the free, polytheistic thought and culture of Greece. Polyhtheism has usually been far more intellectually creative than monotheism: compare the barren fanaticism of Ancient Israel and the profound intellectual cultures of Ancient Greece, China, India, Egypt....

Islam, after a promising early period in which Greek and Indian culture was more powerful than the barren ideas of Mohammed, lapsed back into the totalitarian desert creed. It ceased to be intellectually creative.

Which is where we come in.

Unfortunately, Hinduism, though intellectually creative in the past, is crippled by caste and karma.

The "Final Solution"? You seemed to ask my view of it. It was the long term result of monotheistic fanaticism - One Book, One God, One Fuhrer!!! - and Christianity's 2000 year cultivation and fostering of anti-Semitism.


I am not a Christian, but an agnostic. I sometimes argue Dalits and Tribals in India should convert to Islam, in order to scare the caste Hindus.

Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 08, 2005 12:00 AM
146
Also.. If the writer is a "Sunni Muslim" I would like to know if she had ever been allowed inside a mosque..

Selvan
Boston, United States
Dec 08, 2005 12:00 AM
145
Quran on women: Maybe the writer of this article can comment on this
--------

2:223 Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad).

4:11 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. ...
4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
4:43 O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.

24:31 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.

The above 'revealed' verse is the critical one and used for the "veils/purdahs/hijabs/abayas" and for "Sania Mirza".. :-))
Selvan
Boston, United States
Dec 08, 2005 12:00 AM
144
We muslims don’t believe that Allah is everywhere – we believe that Allah has knowledge of all things.
- If he is not everywhere so he is restricted in space how is he powerful. how will he know everything.

Prophets death used to consult his wives.
Prophets consulting his wives in their privacy is not same as their wives sitting as a judge in public. Can a judge be a female ?
Can she like a judge sit on Marital dispute case?

For Muslims there is no other option but to avail the facility – due to lack of other options. But I agree with you – the govt. should remove the subsidy provided to hajj pilgrims.

So govt should remove the subsidy and not they themselves. Whatever happened to their belief has it taken a dive?
Ultimately this subsidy is used by Saudis to built the infrastructure. All those visiting the holy land are using infrastructure build with infidels money.
Reservation is akin to stealing from other well-deserved candicates who have worked hard. It is stealing what was rightfully others. Should the hands of reservation Muslims chopped off.


Allah is aware of what is going to happen. I have freedom over my actions – but Allah being the all knowing knows what I am going to do.
-- If he knows I am going to sin and he is not going to help him but sit on the final judgement what is the use of the God? Does not even look Good and powerful God!

Like for example a teacher does not want that any student shall fail – but he knows about some students who will definitely fail in the exam.
-- Has the teacher already given up? Is he a teacher then? What is the use of him ?

All the other interpretations are wrong.
-- How is one to decide who is the right intrepreter? Again how do you know one's intrepretation is right when language, context etc changes so much. ex - language of Bible has died.

U said that "........Whatever applies to Islam also applies to Christianity.........."
This is completely an illogical statement and totally baseless.
-- You might not want to answer this question. But what is the main difference from Christianity(if possible Judaism also) top 3 reasons will do.

Again what kind of equality Islam offers which Hinduism with Casteism does not ?
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Dec 08, 2005 12:00 AM
143
Tariq writes

##Sati is defunct ??? So who was Roop kunwar, who committed Sati in 1987 ? Which "invading army " was going to "spoil" her ?

One case in over a 100 years... and you wish to quote that as an example?

## Shah Bano case stands out because ONLY Muslims can act as judges in Sharia matters. Will hindus digest Muslim interpretation of Vedas ?

The verdict in the Shah Bano case was given by the Indian Supreme Court. The Judges give their verdicts based on the Indian Law. What Sharia interpretation are you saying here?

As per Naheed's posts you chaps are not able to interpret your Book itself correctly. If you are going to do the same piss-poor job of interpreting the vedas, then surely, we would have objections.

##What about accidental(?) "bride burning" committed by hindus. Almost 99 % dowry deaths are related to hindu/sikhs. Not to mention female infanticide , again prevelant in hindu society.But hindu religion & hindus are not guilty, of course. I blame Muslims for all this!

Again, you are mixing issues.
The dowry system is a social problem, not a religious problem. Brides are burnt because they did not bring in some money and not because the burner belongs to one religion (who would get virgins after death) and the burnt is an infidel.



## Coming to HINDU TERRORIST'S "reaction in gujrat" for Godhra, it looks like it follows "eye for an eye" doctrine, that you detested so much in your post (point One).

Exactly. But then what they did was illegal and unlawful. That "eye-for-an-eye" is not part of the accepted legal system.


#Dont judge hindus by their acts(only Muslims)!!!

Look all aound you in the world. Name one continent where Hindus are a cause for angst.

Can you name one continent hwre Muslims are not cause for angst (maybe Antartica)
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Dec 08, 2005 12:00 AM
142
==> Naheed,
I don't proclaim to know Islam and neither am I deeply aware of other religons and their teachings. But I would like to ask you one thing - in your clarfications about women being treated equal in Islam I found two anomalies
a. You state "The Prophet said, 'Her companion should let her share her veil with her, and the women should participate in the good deeds and in the religious gatherings of the believers.' ......"
But isn't the fact that while a veil is mandatory for a woman who is expected to be covered from head to toe and not for men bely the fact that men are more equal.
b. "...O people: verily you owe your women their rights, and they owe you yours...."
By people I presume men are meant so by asking men to take care of "their women" aren't women being treated like property instead of individuals.



Deep
delhi, India
Dec 08, 2005 12:00 AM
141
==> Mohammed Zafar,
I like your defense about the Fatwa on Sania's skirt, but then can you please explain to me why these esteemed Fatwa givers never deemed it necessary to issue a fatwa against Osama, Mullah Omar and other terrorists who are busy blowing up people in the name of religon.
Deep
delhi, India
Dec 08, 2005 12:00 AM
140
Deepak
Dubai, UAE
Dec 08, 2005 12:00 AM
139
Good story to sell, and a good article to get free advertisement of the magazine. Nothing else.
The people who try to follow the shariah know what and how fatwas are followed. And regarding the fatwa on sania mirza's skirt, there was no question of second thought, when you yourself mention, conditions of women working out and the kind of dress they should wear. Some women if they cannot follow ISLAM they should not point fingers on no body else. The fatwas are for them who want to follow ISLAM. One does not become a muslim if he/she wears a dress alike or has a name which sounds like a muslim name. Those who have told against the fatwas and maulvi's should first look at themselves about how much they understand ISLAM and not the world.
Mohammad Zafar
Mumbai, India
Dec 08, 2005 12:00 AM
138
THOMAS NILE,

I know what you are, you bigoted hypocrite. You follow too familiar a pattern in the 'debate'.

Whatever applies to Islam also applies to Christianity.

Free Speech
Bihar, India
Dec 08, 2005 12:00 AM
137
Just to give you the hint I would be discussing about the final countdown....oooops...final solution
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 08, 2005 12:00 AM
136
Hi Thomas, can we discuss christanity? If u r ready let me know!!!
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
135
Probably Lalit was advised to quit after a ghee-bespattered ceremony amid whose pungent fumes a rolling-eyed, drum-bellied Brahmana (a Mooost Holee Person) solemnly warned him to quit. It was part of his karmic dharma......Otherwise there was a danger of his being re-born as an Untouchable in Lallooland...
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
134
Lalit:

Well, no-one asked you to join the debate, anyway. Quit, by all means. Hindus are quitters.

It is true that trying to bring home even the most obvious fact to bigoted Muslims and caste-minded Hindus is a hopeless task. As Schiller said: "Mit der Dummheit kampfen Gotter selbst vergebens..." (With stupidity the gods themselves struggle in vain.)

I admire your choice of Isaak Dinesen's book. It is wonderful indeed. She published a fabulous English version called "Out of Africa", under the name Karen Blixen.
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
133
The debate on religion
------------------------

I request all to stop this debate. Frankly I consider it demeaning for all participants.

Watch TV instead or read a good book,
I am reading Book seller from Kabul, and the next will be The African farm, by Isaac Dinesen.

Remember we can not change anything at all.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
132
"He was the last and final Messenger of Almighty God.""

You are free to believe whatever crap you want.. There are some who believe George W Bush is the recent prophet sent by the same God/Allah and apparently the God clarified to Bush that Muahammad is not the last prophet.. There was another "prophet" followed by "ahmadiyas" and a few other "prophets" in other regions..

How does that sound??..

:-))
Selvan
Boston, United States
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
131
I meant "praying", below.
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
130
Islam had and indeed still has slavery (in Saudi Arabia and in Africa). Islam in the Indian subcontinent also has caste, inherited from Hinduism.

But be serious, Giri, Freespeech et al....!!! No religion has ever debased a large section of its own people to worse-than-animal status as Hinduism has done with the Untouchables. The details are so horrible I don't want to go into them. No religion has been - and IS!!! - quite so inhuman, lacking the very concept of equality.

By contrast, Islam has given believers at least the equality of parying together.

Hinduism has a long, long, long way to go cleanse itself.
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
129
addition to the previous post -
What equality does Islam have which Hinduism with Casteism does not ?
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
128
NAHEED

I did not get time to go through the thread but based on the last few comments -

" "O Mankind! We have created you from a male and female, and made you into nations and tribes,

Does that mean you did not come from a single God!

"Not only did Islam emphasize the equality principle theoretically, but did it practically in some of the worship acts that translated this principle into a sensible fact that "

What is the thing about the vip status for important people in Haj pilgrimage? CNN showed it all, how arabs were treated than African people ?
Do you want to talk about racism in Islam against blacks ?
Is there a difference between man and woman by nature(biologically) according to Islam?
If so, can the women intrepret Koran?
Can she like a judge sit on Marital dispute case?
Is it always a male-centric intrepretation of Koran ?(or do you accept the differing worldview of women)
Does she have the equality of worship with men in Mosque.

Does Islam accept the EQUAL rights of gays/lesbians to live as opposed to there acceptance by Islam ?

- Does Islam accept secularism/Multiculturalism(I do not mean tolerance with jijya)?
- How do you accept the charity of Hindus(Kafirs) in the form of subsidy of Haj pilgrimage and then go and do charity there in Saudi ? So when you pray with your God does he automatically give a portion of the benefit meant for you to US as we paid for your trip ?

Verily, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware."
If so how do you explain 'free will'. Are you fatalistic? Do you have freedom in your action? or all your action already decided by God ? If so how do you explain the sin ? Does God made you sin ? Is your God a good god ?

I can make Hinduism a perfect religion(whatever it means) by using later day (19 and 20th century) intrepretation of Hinduism, but that does not carry me far right? So please give some proper answer without saying mullah or qazi or somebody else does not Islam and only certain person do? Who will judge who is the right intrepreter ?
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
127
Faruki
-----------

Just a short one.

My last post expresses my views.

I do not believe in Hindus myths, christian theology or the divinely inspired Islam

I would doggedly oppose a Hindu fundamentalist
or a christian fundamentalist society. I am a Hindu by birth, but am an agnostic, and as a supporter of the type of welfare system as is the model for Scandinavian countries.

My attacks on Islam-not muslms by birth- is because we happen to be discussing Islam all the time.

If we discussed hindu fundamentalsim my comments would also be quite forthright.

Yes I suggest an ethnic separation in India- realiseing that it is not possible- because I see this as a way of paying back for what muslims have dome and are doing.

Only a blind and deaf man will not see what has happened in the guise of the fight of liberation in Kashmir.Hindus have been deported, and killed.
Any reasonable explanation for this Faruki and others.??

Muslims are doing this in other areas of the world,in Phillipines , Thailand, SriLanka,
Balkans, Chechnya.

However I think that we need the debate to move on from Hindu vs muslim to muslims and christians. This may bring back some objectivity.

Now this was just an answer to Faruki, and I will not write again, unless my name is specifiacally mentioned.

I am running an investment company , and just writeing here cost me thousands of usd's in time,
and I dont thing its worth my time.

So do me a favour and dont mention my name again. There are others on this forum.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
126
Don't you dare ask me a question like a paki sitting in Pune.

If you love the pakis so much why don't you pack up your bags and head towards wagah. You guys have been given too much of rope, time to tighten up.
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
125
HI GIRI & TARIQ,,,,you guys , what u do to earn a living? Are you guys employed by Outlook?
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
124
C'mon Tariq what break you need. You have no f'ing thing to do. You are off welfare. Koi kaam nahin, koi danda nahin, koi kaam na jaane, koi danda na jaane.

Give me a break man.
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
123
Good try Tariq of repeatedly mentioning Tamil. Are you so scard of Tamils. I am no LTTE lover, but one thing i admire them. They kicked the asses of muslims traitors who played double game with them. All these traitor are driven out of their homes and cowering in fright. You know that's why even Bal thackeray admires them but nothing else.

We need to do the same in India so that your bhais here know how to behave.

'Hindustan me rehna hai tho vande mataram jahna hai'
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
122
Giri, the very mention of Romila Thapar makes my blood boil. She is the muslim appeaser of the highest order and she is considered 'the authority' on Indian History.

Sad state of affairs indeed.

Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
121
... And then where are the mughals? In the form of your Pakistan which can never ever win a conventional war against India.

THAT IS THE FACT.

Nuclear war too. smoke out Delhi and the next minute pakistan will be smoked out. All this because of 'no first strike' policy of India. If we strike first then everyone knows what the result will be...

Once upon a time there was a evil country called Pakistan...
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
120
C'mon Tariq, don't laugh at your own book. Some mullah is watching you over and sharpening his halaal knife.

Chop chop chop!

May peace be upon him!
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
119
Tariq and his idiotic cohorts hate idol worshipping infidels but have they ever realised that they are the idol worshippers of pre-islamic Arabian pagan god, the black stone in Kabah.

The Quran has fantastical verses which will make even the worst idol worshipper shamed. Muhammad can split the moon, go to moon on the back of a donkey. Man he can do anything.

Not in 1000yrs or even 10,000 yrs will these barbaric religion evr conquer India. They might have conquered Spain, the entire persia, modern day middle east, turkey and of course a part of India inhibited by devious people like Tariq, but never can they conquer India!
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
118
... And your Muhammad was sitting under a tree caressing the Arabian beauties and saw sun set in murky waters. Then immediatley he had a revelation. O prophet, the sun sets in murky waters. As usual after his sleep paralysis he wakes up and reveals this revelation too.

He then goes to sleep. Goes into sleep paralysis and on comes the revelation

O prophet, the mountains act as pegs to hold the earth in place.

May peac be upon him!
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
117
Giri don't you understand that chopping off the head if copy righted to Muslims dated 7th century AD. Any misuse or infringement of this copy right act, then their god will curse to burn in hell for eternity.
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
116
Tariq Moron, you are relatively brilliant at numbers that's surprising considering the jehadi syllabus in your paki curriculum. Now a simple math question.

Of the welfare amount you draw in DM's what percentage you contribute to the IIF terrorist fund. Quick answer required please.

You were talking about in arabia and not India. So where does the question of toilet papers in India come, you moron.

You are the biggest IDIOT on this forum. Why don't you piss of to an Islamic forum and ask your ulemas re the fatwas. I guess there is a lot for you to learn and become a true muslim. When we want to have some fun we visit these sites and ask stupidest of questions and your mullah often answers without fail. We chuckle and roll over in laughter. Nevertheless we learnt a lot about jinns and boy were we scared.
The other day i was peeing and lo and behold a jinn was watching stealthily from a corner. I did what the ulema asked me to do. Kalima or whatever but the jinn was chuckling then i said hanuman chalisa and out ran the jinn.

It is better that you spend your time there rather than trying to add up numbers (which is beyond your chimp brains). When you get frustrated throw up your hands and cry for help. There are so many shrinks out there who can help you.

You slave of the Arabs, we don't need to take advise from you terrorists. Despite all the discrimination against hindus in Arabia, they still prefer hindus to you paki muslims. I have a businessman friend in South Africa a muslim (very few genuine indeed) who curses the muslims for continuously cheating him and heaps praises on hindus for their sincereity and hard work.
What more can you say about pukes like you when your own 'bhai' has this to say.


Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
115
TARIQ

Swami...
"Swami bacche , why dont your hindus return to ram rajya if there plight is so bad in Arab nations. There are not forced to live. They cannot fight anyone becasue they are cowards. They dont have courage to oppose anyone who is superior or even similar in strength."

If all the hindus leave your paradise then you will have to

Revert back to counting using the abacus as
there will not be any Indian accountant to
write up your accounts. There won't be any computers that can do your work 'cause you Asses
cannot even use an excel. Switch on the computer, out comes the screen 'Bismillah' beyond which you would not know how to proceed. Though you guys can count upto 5, that magical number to pray to your god.

No toilet papers will be produced in
factories owned by Indians and left to run by
believers. So you will revert back to the
stones to wipe you asses as Muhammad
first got a revelation.

Indians work hard in extracting the black gold. You will get back on the camels as cars will be off the roads.

So in short you will get back to your paradise of 7th cntury Arabia where the sword literally rules.

"Fighting aginst adversaries need courage, which you lack. swami truth hurts."

Courage doesn't mean strapping up a suicide belt and blowing up innocents. We Hindus cherish life and to us Earth is a paradise while you cherish death and you dream of a non-existent paradise.
If this is courage then yes we are cowards.

"Swami, you moron 1 billion is including Muslims. In gurukul did you study maths? The ratio comes to about 1 Muslim to 6 hindus, not bad. If there is a big conflict you hindus will be taking "jal samadhi""

No wonder you madrassa teaching is quite glaringly visible in your posts. You MORON, Indias population is not 1 billion but almost 1.2 billion and you cannot evn see the simple fact that I have excluded those anti-Indians.
All put together will be washed away in a stinking samadhi for which the world will be ever grateful to India for having wiped out terrorism.
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
114
Aren't you engaging in exactly the same type of sensationalism in your choice of cover as you talk about in the article? Anyone seeing your cover will imagine it is about buying some kind of draconian fatwa. Yet when we read the story, we find that this is just eh same sort of opinion any reactionaru police DIG or family elder would have given, so what's th pont of putting it on the cover except just to sell your mag to unsuspecting consumers?
Biswapriya Purkayastha
Shillong, India
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
113
The reason is you behave like a baccha. What is this ashram thing. Do all hindus go to ashram and study just to counter your madrassa education. Yes I don't support anyone just because he is my religion or language and anti-India unlike you muslims to whom nation means nothing, everything is religion and a umma thing. That is why your paradise pakistan is haven for all the terrorists, drug peddlers, mass rapists in the world. All of them without exception all muslims.

May peace be upon him.
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
112
Tariq ke bachche, don't play your typical paki game. I am an Indian not a srilankan. Your knowledge is very restricted so just stick to what you know best. Do your namaaz five times as per your god and he will take care of everything. Why do you even try to fiddle into things unknown to a muslim. Good try, but not good enough.
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
111
Tariq ke bachche, hindus sure are in Arab lands but can you see the plight of hindus in your paradises. They don't go around blowing up others due to discrimination. If hindus were that type then what is 150 million against more than one billion. If these numbers spit then where is the need for an earthquake, you will be washed away in that stink.

So just realise these facts and shut up.
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
110
What claim you have over our richest man. He became a richest man because he lived amongst the liberal hindus. Hindus made him rich. He doesn't quote his religion at the drop of a hat. He doesn't bang his head five times a day 'cause he has better things to do.

Now can one imagine Azim premji being a pakistani. Any guesses? C'mon paki, take a shot.
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
109
** I am scared Dinesh, mighty (?)hindus should be feared. ....Well you should not be. We dont kill.

&&&& if AN INDIAN is worlds 3rd richest, How does another Indian become richer than him without becoming 1st or 2nd richest in world before him is beyond me!

Right to express one's opinion and thats why retracted. Those were not my opinions, those were spit on you for your nonesense. But why drag the innocent victims of eqthquake.

ANOTHER 100 years....you should be scared , we would be world beaters, and you pakies, in Jihadabad..fighting for Iraq/ Iran and god knows whose war....Shame on you guys; you are the loosers. I just want to roll over and laugh...hi hi hi.....we would be world beaters and you Pakies..down with your thumbs....Hungry, complaining but with AK47 tring to find another land of Jihad.

Good night. Raat bahut bhayi ab sut jaayie.
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
108
Tariq, thanks for atruth amid a rubble of lies. At least you agree that you guys stole the nuclear technology not from Germany but from other sources.

Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
107
So we have another terrorist paki masquerading as an Indian. I have seen thousands of pakis who falsely claim they are Indians as the whites kick their ass.

Well come to bharat and plant a bomb. Your mai musharraf and dawood bhai are there to protect you.

Pak will be history in one generation. Our children hundred years from now will be reading

Once upon a time there was an evil country called pakistan...
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
106
Naheed
__________

Some time ago the Danish ministry of education made a survey of students of various ethnicities. They concluded that 30 % of the muslim students could not use logical reasoning in their daily assignments. The figures for the Danish students was 8%

There seems to be a different way of thinking and reasoning between most of the muslims who write on this forum and we others. I will leave Old Mac out of this.He falls into another category all togather. God bless him.

Krishnamurthy was a great Indian philosopher. He did not believe in any religion and his advice
to his students was that they should have an enquireing mind. Nothing should be taken as right unless it met the cold test of reasoning.
Thats the way I try and think. Its not easy.

I did not as a child accept the dogmas of religion, gods and godesses, the caste system and
and the class system. I refused to accept Christianity in school or in University in England, because I thought the origins of Christian theology simply unbelievable. I did like my christian friends and they were very nice people. However the religion did not meet my standards of rationality. I can not accept that Jesus was given birth by virgin Mary, and neither that he was the son of god.

Likewise I do not accept that Mohammed was a prophet, that he was the messenger from god and so on.

Would anyone today take a pizza shop owner to be a prophet if he told us so. Would we accept that he had been to heaven with the angel Gabriel on a winged horse . Not many people would. Because our sense of reasoning would not let us do it.

On more practical matters, which muslim country do you think has a fairer, more honest and humane society then that which prevails in most western European countries. Would it be Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran - maybe Saudi Arabia.??

Which muslim country gives equal rights to women
compared to western non muslim countries.

Which country treats minorities better, muslim or European countries.

In which muslim country would you personally get a fairer deal- in the western non muslim countries or neighbouring Pakistan and Bangladesh.

And why is it that when muslims flee from persecution that they invariably choose the west, even India and seldom a muslim country.

Take your time and reflect on my questions, and let us hear from you, if you are so inclined.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
105
Dinesh, why do you have to apologise to pakis. They are beggars and thieves of the highest order. All that they claim as their accomplishment is either begged and borrowed or stolen. Nuclear technology is wholly stolen from Germany and begged from other countries like china. They have nothing to claim as their original. Even the blood that flows in their veins is not of their Arabic masters but Hindus'. They kiss the ass of Arabs and are very proud of this culture of patronising the Arabs.
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
104
This Paki Tariq is living off welfare in Germany and must be biting the hand that feeds, a typical terrorist paki mentality.

Instead of talking about coward hindus change your ways you paki. Why do you guys clamour for a white mans' ass while all muslim lands are pure and paradises. Your own Pak is a paradise so why don't you get back to your paradise???
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
103
Sorry about that Paki Begging thing. It was a bit uncivilized. On second thoughts, it was proper to set aside the ego and help the needy. But dont provoke us into something sinister.
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
102
TARIQ > No one cares what Indi's think.

Bullshit. An Indian Hindu is 3rd richest in the world. And without HARAAM KAA PETRO_DOLLAR!!!India has never begged to anybody in the world. Remember Tsunami? inspite of hardship and critisism we never begged. Now see Pakistanies first begging for tents and then complaining nobody has done anything for them. Dont you dare bash Indians. We are bloody good. If world were to be be peacefull for another 100 years Indians will again show that they are the best civilization on the face of earth. Not by murdering people!

And please do not discuss partisan, as all of us know the Paki rascals. And yes statistics show the pakis in proper light. Why you guys always create trouble everywhere, be it West Ham or France or India or Africa or where-ever?

Dont you ever...right?

BTW I liked "I guess Osama is following Geeta & is trying to fight evil as Pandavas did (following Krishna sermons) :-)"...

GIRI, I know RSS more than perhaps you do as I have grown up in Shaka from the age of 5. See there is no point imitating what is worst in Muslims; which amounts to flattery. What we can learn from muslims is universal brotherhood and respect for equity. Unless we can find some good in them we would simply replicate ourselves into their worst. Thats not good. Forget RSS, its quite outdated. Even BJP realises this.
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
101
I am actually surprised. About 22-23 years back , as a child, I went to collect Saraswati puja Chanda and was turned back by almost all Bengali Bhadhralok because I used to go to RSS sakha (I was too young actually to know anything about RSS then; excepting for the fact that it was prohibited in home as my pop was a communist, and naturally we were rebels!) Now I see most Bengalies are speaking the language of RSS.Gods must be crazy!
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
100
Mr/Ms/Mrs.Naheed (Or NoHead): "Not many muslims read the Quran. Even amongst those who read there are very few who actually follow the teachings." - I suppose Osama Bin Laden is an exception? He follows the teachings.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
99
Correction - "acts of the AlQaeda, Taliban, LeT (amongst others) - all creation of South Asian Muslim societies"

should read...
creation of all of which were significantly supported by South Asian Muslim societies
Arindam Banerji
Sunnyvale, USA
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
98

"Screw official figures in India. Indian official data has as much credibility as Bush's intelligence on Iraq"

So, Bush's intelligence on Iraq is in-correct, but CIA factbook number of 16% minority-population are trust-worthy...hmmm...the pakistanism just drips through...

We perhaps should also depend upon such noble institutions like the Akhora Khatak, the genocidal Pakistani/Bangaldeshi government or the local LeT low-lifes for data now - the fact, is that doing equal-equal in terms of minority attacks in baseless - there is no data to prove such equality.

The world over people aren't scared of a Tamil Brahmin ramming an aircraft into large buildings, but yes, they're nervous about what Tariq-like Pakiness will do. Think about it - the opinions on Muslims in world-power corridors is shaped by the acts of the AlQaeda, Taliban, LeT (amongst others) - all creation of South Asian Muslim societies.

Also, for example, we know that in the last 2 decades about 100,000 Indians have been killed by Pakis - this excludes the 60 million minorities that have vanished from these countries or the hundreds of thousands killed in Afghanistan, after the Russians left. This is where, the dire lack of civility in Paki thinking needs to be looked at - 100,000 killed in 20 years, 60 million people are "cleansed" and a Mr. Tariq insists on jumping up and down shielding such crimes against humanity.

Now on your data - based on the 1941 and 1951 Pakistani census - we have the following -
QUOTE
Almost 15 million people belonging to the minority communities were either killed or converted to Islam or forced to migrate to India during partition. This number is substantially higher than usual estimates.
Of these 15 million, about 7.28 million migrated to India and the rest are unaccounted for. Presumably, they were either killed or converted into Muslims.
UNQUOTE

So, the 20 million migration is baseless, unless you show me the mathematics.

Your data on Bangladesh needs to take a look at the census data from 1941 through 2001 - the change did not happen overnight - it happened progressively over the years, including after 1971 - 28% to 10.3% (and below now) did not happen overnight - it took 6 decades.
Arindam Banerji
Sunnyvale, USA
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
97
Pakistan as a country is based on being anti-Hindu, anti-Indian and anti-secular. It also takes immense pride in an ugly, pernicious ideology-that of the 'martial race' concept, where Moslems( at least the true blue ones) are the proud, conquering, ruling people, while Hindus are the wimpy, cowardly merchants who can only exist on the Moslems' generosity. This is the ideology that has sustained Pakistan and its ruling military goons for the last 50 plus years.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
96
Lakshmi Srinivas: I do not see evidence of it changing, thankfully. Unless you are talking about Post-Godhra in all its gruesome barbarity or 1984 or 1993, and so on, but those, more than the instigation of any religious swami were the dastardly doings of a state that not only abdicated its duty but goaded the murderers - and there is no excuse for that.

It is heartening to read Arindam Banerjee's words as well, about the need for introspection, for I have never argued otherwise myself, here or elsewhere.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
95
>> "..... introspection is necessary for us to grow and improve and it must be a 2-way street"

Arindam, thanks for saying that.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
94
No, Gandhi died in an environment which was already extremely violent, with mass killings and expulsions from across the border. Anyone who was bitter with what was seen as the Moslem appeasement policies of the Congress, might have acted as Godse did. BTW, just ten years earlier, Godse was a supporter of Gandhi and the Congress. Also, even Godse never attacked Gandhi or anyone for his/their critical remarks about Hinduism, or put out a contract, forced them undergorund etc. Godse basically committed a crime for which he was punished.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
93
I did not hold any brief for the West.

btw, Varun, did Gandhiji die of natural causes?
Lakshmi Srinivas
- -, USA
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
92

Lakshmi Srinivas has not given *one* example of a Hindu reformer, critic or satirizer who was forced underground, made to leave the country in fear of his(her) life, forced into reclusion, or in need of round the clock security. Instead, it's all speculation and hypothesis. I hope also that when you make the remark about Hindus being susceptible to violence, you are also thinking of the glorious Americans and British. Or do these wonderful folk have something hard wired into them, that prevents them from indulging in violence and intolerance?
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
91
Ghulam Faruki:

Islamic radicals resemble not the Jews of Europe in the 1930's, but the Nazis of Europe. They are definitely a problem and will need to be dealt with as toughly as the Nazis were if civilization is to survive.
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
90
To Varun Sekar, I say this: Telling the truth is not hip.

I would like to remind Ajit Tendulkar, I said that though Hindus don't care that much for their religious heads, I added an important rider that 'this is changing'.

Btw, it would soon be impossible to speak to VHP or Bajrang Dal activists or their leaders. Hindus as usual are behind most of their neighbors in catching some of these modern trends. What Srilankan Buddhists have been doing since 1958 to Tamils(absolute ethnic cleansing), or what Pakistani army did to Bengalis (both by and large Muslims), Hindus of India seem to have learnt only in 2002. Tariq should get his facts right - Tamil extremism in Sri Lanka is a response to Sinhala Buddhist chauvinism (just as the Jewish extremists viz., IRGUN, in Palestine started their indiscriminate terrorism against civilians in 1940's and one of their founder leaders Menachem Begin was even PM of Israel ... Palestinians themselves started their terrorism much later. But if you read modern Press, only Arafat is considered a terrorist)

Hindus are headed the Muslim and Sinhala route - increasingly listening to strident pseudo-religious voices that provoke ethnic or religious tensions.

In any case there is no inherent biological wiring that Hindus come with that resists religious fanaticism, violent chauvinism and other forms of extremism.

Why this column itself with addresses in Europe and America of, I am sure, highly educated people, is proof of that.
Lakshmi Srinivas
- -, USA
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
89
Giri - mud-slinging does happen and sometimes un-deservedly.

But, having said that - introspection is necessary for us to grow and improve and it must be a 2-way street.

Some, people end up supporting the post-godhra riots - on the other hand, I can never understand a situation, where the killing of a thousand Indian citizens is defended. Doesn't work for me.

Similiarly, I have seen the Hindu far-right gherao movie halls that show movies like "Girlfriend", all in the name of women's dignity - but the same folks never seem to "gherao" clinics that practice female foeticide.

I have seen caste politics and discrimination at its worst - while I do believe that some of this will go away, as 30-50million Indians join the middle class every year - heinous discrimination still remains a key problem in our society.
Arindam Banerji
Sunnyvale, USA
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
88
Well, the evidence is certainly there. India didn't progress as it should have on health care and mass education. For that, Nehru must take a big chunk of the blame. The mess up on Kashmir, the willingness to negotiate with the thugs in Pakistan on the Indus Water system, and the horrible bungling over Tibet/China- are almost unforgiveable. Perhaps Nehru would have been better ,as one reader suggested, being president, and in the background. Patel or Rajagopalachari would have made better prime ministers. Gujus and Southies are the best! (just kidding)
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
87
Ghulam Faruli:

Enough Indians like you and we shall all be Pakistanis.
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
86
" At Gurukul/vidya mandir did they teach you to check data before babbling ?"

At some point, in stead of the "deny-deny-deny" principle - you guys have to recognize that Pakistan, BDesh and kashmir valley have few minorities left, and that not a coincidence...

Also, looks like the local LeT hangout does not teach simple data analysis - for example, please see the 2001 Bangladesh Census for the 10.3% number - CIA fact books are interesting, but in many cases the data is out-of-date.

The data on the exodus starts from the 1951 census. By the way, the trick of pinning the genocide on the 1971 migration is a good exmple of madrassah logic - what portion of the 12 million were minorities and what portion were non-minorities?

The ethnic cleansing in BDesh is largely due to such nice legal frameworks as the "enemy property act" which makes legally viable to take away land from minorities and also due to the significant ethnic clensing of the entire Chakma population from eastern Bangladesh.

Finally, in BDesh - after 2001 elections (post 2001 census) - there were massive progroms and genocidal atacks, which have obviously reduced the population of minorities further.

On Pakistan, the number of 20 million, as far as I know are simply made up ('cos there were no census done) - the only eliable analysis, we can go by are: the 1941 census which puts the numbers at just around 22% minorioties and after that back-calculate, based on relevant data from change in populations in the 1951 and 1961 census. So, here's a segment of analysis, that may work...
QUOTE
This study found strong evidence for ethnic cleansing in Pakistan and particularly in West Pakistan. It also compared these numbers with corresponding numbers for India and found that there is no case for apportioning blame to both countries. There was no evidence for a corresponding ethnic cleansing in India. West Pakistan had a higher minority population (21%) than India (13%) in 1941 but by 1951, Pakistan had virtually no minorities left (3%) while India continued to be home to a substantial Muslim minority (9%). This analysis stops at 1951 but a further analysis would reveal that while the Muslim minority in India has increased over the years (reaching 12% in 1991), it has continually declined in both West Pakistan and East Pakistan...An interesting, albeit chilling finding of this analysis is that there are almost 7.5 million people belonging to the Hindu and Sikh minority populations of Pakistan that are unaccounted for over and above those who migrated to India.
UNQUOTE
Arindam Banerji
Sunnyvale, USA
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
85
>> "Your boys did a good job"

I am an Indian.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
84
Ghulam Faruki and Tariq:

Two and a half MILLION Bengali Hindus were slaughtered by the Pak army during the Bangladesh War. Your boys did a good job.
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 07, 2005 12:00 AM
83
Varun

Well said. All I need now is to ask you to reconsider your favourable opinion of that hypocritical, conceited lotus eater from Kashmir, Nehru.

I know Nehru had a great way with the English language. Heck, let me admit at once that his "Autobiography", "Glimpses of World History", and "Discovery of India", although blotted by disgusting cover-ups of Islamic crimes in Indian history, are among my favourite books....He did have a fine mind, and was very good company when he wanted to be. For instance the historian Arnold Toynbee spent entrancing hours with him talking about world history, and the great French novelist Andre Malraux had a wonderful visit too. These weren't the only distinguished visitors who loved Nehru. But I would ask you to read the scarifying account of an interview with him by Pablo Neruda (in Neruda's memoirs) and you will get a glimpse of how overbearing, cold and conceited Nehru often was. Also, have a look at the second volume of Nirad Chaudhuri's memoirs. Nehru saddled India with disastrous economic ideas; neglected mass education and healthcare despite his claim to be left-wing; neglected the armed forces because of his lunatic Gandhian obsessions; appeased Muslim fundamentalism, thus creating a force that can destroy India; and set the fatal trend for politicians to fill high posts with their relatives. His stupidity also got us defeated by China. It is because of him that India has lived miserably all these decades. Can one man harm a huge nation more? Fine books are not enough compensation....And, to cap all his vices, he enjoyed beating up helpless Indians, while never daring to raise his hand against a Brit. That, in brief, is why my opinion of Nehru is -----unprintable!!!!
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
82
Appositioning the phrase "Muslim problem" against "Jewish problem" is to highlight the fact that these communities are seen as "problems" for which a "solution' has to be found.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
81
Ghulam - those numbers are for all minority population - that is mostly Hindus, Siks, Christians in Pakistan and Hindus, Buddhists in BDesh.


"Do you know how many of them went to India and how many were killed?"

I've tried but failed to get the breakdown for Pakistan and Bangladesh - but, for Kashmir valley, for the last two decades - they should be available on the web - in terms of "moved into refugee camps" versus "killed/disappeared"
Arindam Banerji
Sunnyvale, USA
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
80
That's an excellent observation about the difference between Jews in the 30's and Moslems today, Thomas. The comment about Hindu cowardice is good, and it should be taken in the right spirit. Of course, Hindus neeed to become more self respecting and egalitarian than they are known to be, without adopting the Moslems' fanaticism, militarism and rigidity.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
79
Three typos in my message below:

line 4, paragraph 1, "everywhere", not "everwhere"

line 5, paragraph 2, "Gandhi", not "Gnadhi"

last line, "a" is superfluous
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
78
Arindam Banerji, the figures you quote of Hindu population reductions in Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir are indeed gruesome. Do you know how many of them went to India and how many were killed?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
77
Ghulam Faruki:

The situation of Muslims today could not be more different from the situation of the European Jews in the 1930s. The European Jews were a notably pacific community which contributed immensely to European cultural and economic life. Today's Muslims, by contrast, run ruthlessly despotic Islamic states almost everwhere that they are in a majority; where they are in a significant minority they are notorious for aggressively upholding their claim to run a separate society within the country concerned, a society where brutal mediaeval customs rule. Muslim minorities clamantly and impudently demand rights for themselves they would not dream of conceding to others, had they been in power. They also, notoriously, frequently resort to violence. No wonder they are intensely distrusted.

Having said all that, I would agree that in the Indian case harping on the vices of Islam does the Hindus little good. The Hindus also have a very bad reputation with those who know them. They are associated with the triple vices of casteism, karma-fatalism, and cowardice. Mahatma Gnadhi once said that the average Muslim is a bully and the average Hindu a coward. Hindus will pitilessly slaughter "untouchable" members of their own religion, but as a rule, they show cowardice in the face of Muslim aggression. Thus Vajpayee, a typical Hindu, sat and did nothing after Pakistan sent raiders to attack the Indian Parliament. Nirad Chaudhuri, the great Bengali writer, noted that during Partition, Bengali Hindu men often ran away from Muslim-dominated areas, leaving their women and children behind. If I were a Muslim I should certainly not want to "come back" to Hinduism as it is today. Until Hindus get rid of caste, karma and cowardice, they have a only Islamic domination to look forward to in India.
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
76
Actually, Varun, Lakshmi Srinivas' points are valid, but with a crucial difference: how many of these acharaya and swamis actually are able to enforce their idiotic notions and ramblings? Hell, even the moronic RSS chief, Sudarshan, how many Hindu women, do you think, will start 'producing' 17 kids in keeping with his exhortation. The point is that the mullahs and the fatwas were able to get a book banned in India and made the life of Salman Rushdie, leave alone poor illiterates, actually be under such serious threat that Brits and Yanks had to mobiise security. That is the worry. All such loons, be they Hindu or Muslim or Parsi have to be fought and not encouraged. That is all. Outlook wimps out, years after all have known about the problem, in even the Qazi court story!
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
75

Lakshmi Srinivas, you may think you are sounding clever or hip by attacking Hindus and Hinduism(the old 'equal-equal' syndrome), but none of what you say really plays out in real life. For instance, how many Hindu reformers, critics or even satirizers are on the run from their societies, or even from individual attackers. Answer:none. However upset or angry Hindus become, they cannot bring themselves to indulge in killing and persecution in the name of religion. Even spokesmen for the most extreme Hindu organization, the VHP, can be talked to, reasoned with, debated, even joked about-openly- without fear of violence. May I also say that some posters in this forum lack soul. They indulge in nitpicking about caste and other practices, including ones which have hardly ay consequence at all. one thing Nehru deserves credit for is that he had a feeling for the soul and heart of India, which came out in his book "Discovery of India", particularly the last few pages. Many Indians today try to sound smart and clever, without first having their hearts in the right place.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
74
"##Sati is defunct ??? So who was Roop kunwar, who committed Sati in 1987 ? Which "invading army " was going to "spoil" her ?"

Arre baba - why go back that far, I'll give you more recent examples of Sati..see below...oh and such incidents are not one-offs - as Fire services minister Pratim Chatterjee...Earlier too, such incidents have occurred...

From
http://cities.expressin...story.php?newsid=142055

QUOTE
The death of a Muslim woman, who was caught in a blaze as the locals refused to allow entry to male fire-fighters to rescue her, in Colootola, central Kolkata, recently has spurred the West Bengal Fire Services Department to propose the induction of women fire-fighters. The death of a Muslim woman, who was caught in a blaze as the locals refused to allow entry to male fire-fighters to rescue her, in Colootola, central Kolkata, recently has spurred the West Bengal Fire Services Department to propose the induction of women fire-fighters.
UNQUOTE

From
http://www.outlookindia...ame=State+Gazette&sid=5

QUOTE
The state fire services department plans to recruit 50-odd women as firefighters who’ll be tasked to rescue women trapped in fires. The move has been prompted by the death of a Muslim woman in a recent blaze at Kolutala in the city. Locals in the crowded locality refused to allow male firefighters to enter a blazing house to rescue her. Earlier too, such incidents have occurred. Fire services minister Pratim Chatterjee said the "physical contact necessitated" during a rescue had been the bone of contention. Chatterjee has already sent a draft proposal to the CM’s secretariat for approval. "Once I get the green signal, I’ll ensure some women are posted in fire stations, especially in Muslim localities," the minister said. There are 90-odd fire stations in the state, including 18 in Calcutta.
UNQUOTE
Arindam Banerji
Sunnyvale, USA
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
73
"The Killing of missionaries, Christians & Muslims by hindu terrorists in the name of hindu religion can be ignored"

and
"killing of Buddhists by Tamil hindu terrorists in Srilanka can be ignored too"

Ahh...what a winning combination - madrassah logic and head in the sand - all at the same time...

Lets review the facts - if you do a simple google on Hindu + Gujarat + riots - you find thousands of references to fascism. Do the same on attacks on Christians - tons of links appear. Significant portion of these scathing attacks - and rightfully so - are from the Hindu community. Mind you - you'll find a report on the post-Godhra riots and other such attacks, come out almost every week - even now and should continue, according to me.

Now lets see what happens if you try and find the "final solutions" that have actually taken place in South Asia...
- lets say the elimination of all most all minorities in Pakistan - down from 22% to 2% - essentially 30 million people removed - all b'cos of the wrong religion
- lets consider BDesh - minority population down from 28% down to less than 10% (about 7%) - essentially, more thn 28 million people "eliminated"
- Kashmir valley - from 29% minority population to low single digits...
These kinds of statistical ethnic cleansing, which have very few parallels, post the second world war and in fact make the Nazis look like choir boys - yet, how many Muslim organizations protect every week or ask for punishment of the perpetrators even once a month.

Want to see what evangelist terrorism looks like - see for some hints at the "data compiled" by Stephen Knapp at

http://www.stephen-knap..._in_northeast_india.htm


Its very easy to blame the Hindu population - and in many cases, we as Indians do deserve the blame for heinous activities, but nothing like killing off an entire minority population, as has happened and happening in the rest of South Asia. In fact, in the North East - the minority population has grown from 22% to 36%.

Oh - yeah - the Tamils killing people in Sri Lanka is not done under the guise of religion - ala the great doyen of Jihad, Hafiz Sayed, who declared to pakistani newspapes - "Killing Hindus is the way forward".
Arindam Banerji
Sunnyvale, USA
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
72
There is absolutely no reason to attack Hinduism in order to answer posters like Lalit Bagai and Cynic_Learner. A religion makes sense only to its followers, and the theology and mythology of a religion do not need any universal validation.

Mr Bagai has a single agenda which he has been expounding not only in OUTLOOK but also in several other publications. He may say a hundred times that "this" is his last word on the subject, but due to his obsession, he just cannot help coming back to it. His thesis is that partition was a good idea, except for one flaw, namely that all Muslims did not migrate to Pakistan. As a solution,he proposes that India should give up Kashmir, that the huge Indian Muslim population, 150 million, should be moved to Pakistan or redistributed e.g. moving Gujerat Muslims to U.P. etc. European Muslim immigrants should be returned to their countries. In other words, create a wonderful new world with global apartheid. He presents his views as if he is a serious thinker trying to find fair and sensible solutions to the Muslim problem (something akin to the "Jewish problem" in Europe in 1920's and 1930's). His true colors have been exposed only in OUTLOOK, because his veneer is only skin deep, and a little provocation makes him blurt out his hateful communalistic line of thinking.

By the way after all his talk of anger in Denmark against Muslims, the Danish Prime Minister was visiting Abbas yesterday offering very generous aid to the Palestinians.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
71
Actually I find the caption rather objectionable. The caption 'Ayatollahs All' is immediately followed by the header 'Ridiculous fatwas' suggesting subliminally that Ayatollahs are all ridiculous per se.

Any nation that fights for its autonomy especially with (or without) a new ideology is made to look ridiculous by the nations that it is fighting. It is certainly incumbent upon us to cut thru propaganda and find out for ourselves the underlying truth or reality. We certainly have to get "well beyond images of Khomeini dartboards and ... voodoo dolls" to understand their politics.

If you want an Indian example, see the movie 'A Passage to India'. There you get the same imputation of ridiculousness from the British Collector's mouth.

Meanwhile some of us will do well to consider the following:

1) Gandhiji routinely slept between two virgins to control and possibly eradicate his libido
2) Morarji Desai routinely drank his own urine and spoke glowingly of its therapeutic effects
3) Most Hindus are aware of the panchagavya (5 cow products) which are considered the most efficacious in ritual cleansing.

It is true that most Hindus won't give the time of the day to their religious heads. But it is changing. The various Swami's and acharya's one reads about from to time in these pages will actually give stiff competition to some of the authors of these fatwas.

Just as an example, please go thru the Q and A columns run in the language press by some of the acharya's where they basically give their opinion on scripture and its applicability to modern life. I remember the ones run by some prominent acharya's in Tamil magazines in the 60's and 70's. They were a belly laugh.

Hope this helps,



Lakshmi Srinivas
- -, USA
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
70
If upper caste Hindus can act to end the appalling injustices of the caste system, Islam can be contained in India. This is because Islam's threat to India comes from Hindu divisiveness. If these caste Hindus waste their time cursing Muslims and don't get on with the job of erasing caste, Hindu dominance in India is doomed.
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
69
Naheed
--------

Muslim clerics on TV and the media have talked of Jehad against jews, hindus and christians.It
is on the web site of Hizb u Tahrir. a organisation of well educated but not civilised muslims. Now they are being banned in Europe, as a terrorist organisation.

Recently about 3000 muslims claiming that the Koran had been insulted, burnt 3 christian churches and a few schools. Shias and Ahmediyas are slaughtered in mosques in Pakistan from time to time. Hindu women are abducted and forcibly converted by mullahs. I gave an account of this ,
referring to Irfan Hussain article in Dawn.
The cases of muslim women being raped and then forced out of the country are quoted in the US press. The barbarity of the Taliban is recorded in TV films and papers. They converted a sports stadium as a place of executing their opponents.

When we talk about this you come up with a set of blatant lies, denying all of this. You claim that the clerics do not fully understand Islam, and neither do most of the muslim masses.

A fantastic situation where the muslims scholars
after years of study do not understand their faith, and the muslim masses who are willing to do the most atrocious and barbaric things do not understand the Koran either.Then what use is your religion, when neither the clearics or the people understand it. nly Naheed and Faruki do.
Come on. You must be kidding.

Now tell me do you believe that Mohammed after being a business man for many years suddenly
started getting messages from the angel Gabriel.?? Do you believe that he flew on a winged horse to heaven as is reported. Did he kill his enemies and all who opposed him. Did he at the age of 55 years marry a girl child who was 7 years old.

I bring the Europeans in our debates because they are at present the best in knowledge of all kinds. In sociology, psychology , medicine, and whatever. If they reject Islam and muslims this is something you should take up seriously.

Otherwise you can remain in the swamp of ignorance and bigotry, and carry on with your
senseless babble.

For a change correspond with some neutral Europeans, Chinese and this may prove useful, though I doubt it. Your debates with us Hindus is pointless. I am simply shocked with your bigotry and ignorance.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
68
What a clever attempt at being an apologist for the medieval minded mullahs by showing only the harmelssly absurd ones. When Arun Shourie wrote his book The World of Fatwas, more than a decade and a half back, these pseudo-secularists were dismissive and called him a Sanghi, as usual, as if that was an answer by itself, but that's because he also shows how these fatwas impinge on and destroy the lives of many, particularly women. In stead of joining issue with any of those really ridiculous fatwas about divorce where even if a husband were to say talaq, talaq, talaq, even jokingly, or in an inebriated state, the poor woman has to get married to someone else, consummate that marriage and THEN only can she get REMARRIED to her own husband, even when he says that he had not meant it. If only Vinod Mehta and his cronies had defiantly stood up and denounced the ban on Satanic Verses, the reactionaries wouldn't have had such a free run since then, and, hell, even that goddamned Babri Masjid would still be standing. Congress and its supporters are the vilest communalists in this country post-indpedence and it is because of them that we have the Hindutva flourishing. Look at how they are encouraging the Shiv Sainiks - Rane and co - and happily co-opting them, the way they co-opted Shankar Singh Vagehla in Gujarat. They are the root cause why the Sangh and the Muslim fundamentalists have grown to be what they have. They are the Frankensteins who have created these monsters and either still haven't learned, the bloody morons, or are cynical enough to happily keep doing their villainies, and diverting attention by calling others communal. They are corrupt (Mitrokhin, Volcker), communal (Ayodhya locks, Bhindrawale, Shah Bano, Satanic Verses) and 'unconstitutional' as per the SC. Where is the murmur from that poodle?
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
67
Naheed

a few observations on your defiant defence of Islam.

One:

You have said that it is not necessary for the "value system" to change because of the passage of time and quoted about how "stealing is an offence as it was 1400 years ago".

However, pls note that the value system does not only decide what is right or wrong. The value system also decides on how to deal with what is termed as wrong and how to enforce (and I mean enforce) what is right.

Stealing was an offence a few centuries ago, it is an offence even now. However, the punishment for this offence has evolved or changed over the centuries, atleast in a few societies. This change is due to the evolution in the value system.

Perhaps centuries ago, people's hands were chopped off for stealing. The same does not happen now in many societies. This is because the value system of dealing with such crimes has changed or evolved.

However, if you see the type of punishments meted out in the Islamic countries, it is obvious that they are stuck in the time warp of "1400 years ago". The Sunnah that they follow as part of the legal system prescribes "an eye for an eye".

And that is what is being carried out in Saudi Arabia if NDTV news is to be believed. A court there has ordered that one eye of an Indian worker be gouged out because he has partially blinded a Saudi in a fight.

This kind of tribal justice definitely does not belong to the 21st century. You may argue that such things happen in India also. But then they happen outside the purview of the law and are not the legal system per se.

Two:

You have said that Islam has given economic rights to women while Hindus were burning their women in Sati.

Firstly, if we assume that the first part of your statement was right, then why was there such a ruckus about the whole Shah Bano issue? Wasn't that all about the economic rights of a poor woman? Or is it your argument that your scriptures talk only about ownership of property and not about maintenance and hence the court's ruling in the case was all wrong? If your scriptures have granted economic rights to women, why did the Personal Law Board fight against the court verdict?

secondly, about the practice of Sati: the practice was started by the Rajputs to avoid capture/abduction of their widowed women as "spoils of war" by invading armies.

Thirdly, the practice of Sati is defunct now. The society has reformed and rid itself of this barbaric practice.

Three:

The resentment and protests in Uganda, Fiji and Nepal against Indians had their root in economics and politics rather than in religion. The resentment felt towards Islamists in the western world cannot be equated to this.

Four:

You mention the barbaric acts (rightfully) in Gujarat where innocent Muslims were butchered by fanatic Hindus. But you conveniently overlook the fact that a train bogey was burnt causing the death of 57 Hindus.

Srinivas
Delhi, India
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
66
On the presumption of absence of any refernce in scriptures of casteism -
Varna is mentioned in the Scriptures and all the quotes from the missionaries are about this. But does anybody see varna today in action - a brahmin or a Kshathriya controlling anybody. Other than brahmins is there a organised Kshathriya, vaisyas or shudras class? Is its affect felt anywhere ?
Coming to caste(Jathi) it exists in today's society but I still have not find its existence in scriptures anywhere. Again if somebody comes with quotes I will eat crow, seriously!!Infact if somebody comes up with one, my advanced thanks. I have been trying a lot to locate that.
So what is happening today is some ahole doing some illegal crime against another and that is explained by using varnas described in the manusmriti and applied to the caste which exists today.
What is the link between caste and varna in this whole affair ? It is pseudo intellectual's logic which ties everything together.
There is reference to illtreatment of lower varnas in Manusmriti but varnas as described does not exist any more.
There is no justification(if at all needed) for the crimes in the name of castes as there is no hindu religious backing for it anywhere.
I do not know why Hindus especially Brahmins get tied up in knots trying to explain it.

Now coming back to class the monotheistic construct. Has anybody blamed the two religion for problem of extreme wealth and extreme poverty. Does anybody talk about it in the western society. In fact nowadays it is taboo to even talk about it. The code word used to mean class is caste. So if they use the word caste and wink you have to understand that they mean class. Now see how class has been completely secularised and absorbed in the modern day lingo. First class, second class in train. Business class and economy class in train. People will say that it is normal you have more money you go for business class, but then they do not understand the full ramification of class in European Christian society. Even look at Muslims, what is vip class(accomadation etc, it is more expensive) doing in Haj piligrimage. Anybody heard about that. I am sure our Muslims will try to explain it.
The way things are now any crime's source can be traced to class in Christianity and Islam, but do Hindu do that ?
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
65
==> Lalit,
"Of one thing I am absolutely convinced. The west will never accept Islam as a peaceful, tolerant and humane religion."

But which religon is?
Christainity has its share of barbarisim when wars were fought in the name of religion, hinduisim has its share when sections of people were marginalized and women were illtreated all in the name of religon. At the end of the day one should understand that for lack of evidence of God's hand, religon is manmade and served as a kind of constitution and rallying force to the people centuries ago. Ugly practices that benefitted the exhalted few crept into almost all the religons at one point or other.

Regarding Islamic counties, Malaysia is a muslim country with Islam as the official religon, however this country is much better in terms of living than many other non islamic countries including India.

I believe Taliban and the Gulf countries are mostly responsible for the current brand of "Islamic millitancy". Gulf countries being oil rich never had to work for a living. Therefore their rulers most probably used religon to keep the people in check. The main culprit here I believe is Saudi Arabia & Iran because comparitively other Gulf countries like Kuwait etc are fairly liberated.

Also Saudi Arabia encouraged and funded Madrassas in poorer islamic countries like Afghanistan, Pakistan etc. which usually taught whatever interpretation of the religon the teacher thought fit. These Madrassas were also used by Pakistani ISI to fight a covert war with India by recruiting these students and encouraging them to fight for Jihad. US also used their services for fighting against Russians in Afghanistan. Afghanistan of course later became the haven for these religious fundamentalists.

With regard to Mulsims elsewhere resorting to millitancy in the name of religon, well the same can be evidenced among other sects also like the infamous skinheads in Europe or Neo nazis or the Klux Klux Klan in America. The common feature is that all these are basically insecure youths who will use anything to assert their supremacy.

In india I believe it is time we had the Uniform Civil Code implemented. As it is we are a very diverse country, so at least there should be something that unifies us all. By encouraging different laws whether it be personal or whatever for people on the basis of religon we are only encouraging the non seperation of the church & state.
Deep
delhi, India
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
64
Naheed
------

Muslims are judged by their actions whereever they are. And these days the focus of the world is all over, because of the everpresent media.

Now the muslims have been judged all over the world as a new underclass, which takes a lot from western socities and contributes little.
Crime and social statistics are bad- and in fact very bad.

Stop diverting our attention to Hindus and what ever foolish we do. The fact remains that Hindus if not liked are not considered dangerous, and
subservise elements. Danish politicians talk of restricting entry of muslims. and deporting the worst. This does not happen in the case of any other community. In fact the government is planning the issue of green cards , for engineers etc, amongst them Indians ,Chinese and others.

You keep on referring to your wonderful Koran.
And you come up with the absurd view that only so called moderates can interpret it right. You come up with the absurd suggestion that clerics in Pakistan, Riyadh and Tehran do not understand Islam. Absolutely unbelievable. Its like a christian saying that he has a better understanding of the bible then the pope.

This has been the constant ploy of muslims. When caught doing something wrong, they immediately refer to one or two pious sayings from the Koran,
ignoreing most of the rest, which spouts hatred and violence against heretics. In fact Mohammed has the honour of being one of the few religious figures who killed of so many of his opponents.

If the Koran had a a tolerant and peaceful message, muslims would not act as barbarians as they did in Afghanistan. The Taliban-educated in seminaries in Pakistan- and darlings of the Pakistani clerics and military have been some of the worst human beings in the last many years.

Today many muslims want Sharia laws. What are these.
aaa. The laws against blasphemy, with death as a mandatory punishmeny.And they are frequently excercised.

bbb Laws of apostasy.

ccc. And then there are are a set of laws especially aimed at women, restricting their right to get education, freedom of movement and so on.

All these absurd and cruel laws find their inspiration and support in your holy book. Even you are upset by some of these, but you are so enslaved by your faith, that you dare not question its basic illogical origins in your faith .

You should read what Cynic -Learner has written.
Mohammed hearing voices from the angel Gabriel, and flying with him on a winged horse to heaven.

Give us a break.

I am thankful to Cynic-Learner for his input, and I am out of this debate. Muslims can try and answer him, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Tasleema Nasrin.

And as I said once before. Your views would make people shake their heads in disbelief in Europe.




lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
63
Hi GIRI AND NASHEED, I think both of you are missing the point a)In so far as Caste is concerned, its a sad reality of Indian Society. b) Ordinary muslims are not violant, thats why Quazi courts are OK. c) Islam is religion of violance. I somewhat subcribe to Ali Sena's view on that. Ordnary muslims are not STRICTLY GOOD MUSLIMS. otherwise they would be fighting US in Iraq and in US. Thats Jihad, and Quaran is absolutely clear on Jihad on that. Since sharia has traditions included its easy to confuse people giving counter examples. But the bottom line is , You fight against Non Muslims if a muslim is involved is involved in fight. Nasheed, do not invite the wrath of Allah by stating anything on the contrary; otherwise your kind Allah can become very cruel, N you know that!!!! -:).
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
62
European women; a new terrorist threat?


http://tinyurl.com/azg45
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
61
The pictures of the women dressed in black burqua says it all. Imagine not being able to run , play, and see things clearly- all of which are made difficult by the burqa.Imagine being lumbered by this ugly , heavy garment all your life.

Why do muslim women wear it. Is it by choice, or is it imposed by the faith and muslim men. .

Western societies give complete freedom to their women-. They can excel in sports, in theatre, films, music, and in every imaginable thing. They have equal rights of inheritance, and equal rights in every thing else.

Westerners I talk to are especially disgusted by the situation of women in Islam. One Norwegian I met had travelled to Pakistan with his wife. And he was revolted by the way women were treated, includeing his Norwegian wife.

I have my family some times in India. My wife and daughters are irritated by the beggars, and
persistent salesmen, but they are not harassed in any other way.

Westerners judge muslims by looking at countries such as Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran and Saudia Arabia- the golden quadilateral. The Taliban were absolutely the worst. I remember an incident when an American colonel was so angry at the barbaric treatment of a Afghan women, that he took out his pistol and shot the man who was causing it.

Imuslim are treated.

Finally we non muslims do not accept that Islam is a god inspired religion, and neither do we hold the Koran with respect. In fact I have read translations of the text and find the message absolutely unacceptable. I know muslims will dig out a verse or two to prove that its a kind and tolerant religion. Rubbish- Tell that to Daniel Pearl and others who have had their throats cut, along with chantings of verses from the Koran.

Of one thing I am absolutely convinced. The west will never accept Islam as a peaceful, tolerant and humane religion. Danish politicians are now beginning to say more and more, that Islam has no place in their country. The danish PM and many others have said that muslims must respect their national values, stop the propaganda for their faith and Sharia or otherwise leave their country.

This is a harsh message, and no amount of arguments presented by muslims debateing here will make them change their mind.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
60
I got a simple question, more like it is a request for help.
Since casteism and sati has been mentioned in this thread by somebody somewhere I just need to know where can I find reference and issues related to sati and casteism in Hindu Scriptures.I am not talking about Varna which is treated in Manusmriti.
Other than that just to clarify something -about Southies martial tradition. The first foreigner to reach Madurai - the heart of South was some muslim in the 13-14 century if I am right. Also martial arts - Karate as we know it today went from Tamil Nadu to China long time back. Read about Bodhidharma you might find it interesting. If somebody can refer me to good tamil history book that also will be nice.
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
59
What has Aurangjeb to do with castism? Let me tell you something very interesting. I belong to rajasthan and born and bred in Kolkata. So thanks to stupid reds, I never as a child knew what is Castism. But We used to go to our village during vacations. And I remember whole of my family boycoting my mom becuase I had good SC friends and would never mind drinking water from their house. Then when I grew up, I used to support some SC guys, for some elections. Again lot of my upper caste friends including OBC's stopped talking to me. So where was Aurengjeb in all this? BTW my whole family is Congressi, I am the only BJP wala!
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
58
See Quazi courts may be good first port of call if you know how justice system works. Soryy mate, but Brinda Karat and Prakash karats are communists who cannot see beyond state administration. Bringing small family matters to state court overburdons the courts and is waste of resources. Many ordinary Muslims (non bihari)with petty family disputes can easily be settled by community courts such as Quazi courts. BUT DEAR what if it escalates? Does the State have the power to shut these guys to become defacto authority?
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
57
Are GIRI baba tumi North India ki, seita jaano naa. North India is full of Catists rascals, who make your blood boil in similar way as Bihari Muslims in Kolkata do. They should be simply shot at! End of story.
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
56
GIRI, on the other hand Quazi court is not such a bad idea as long as it is subordinate to state courts. It is propoer that issues are settled and resolved between the disputing the parties, and thats the job of court quazi or otherwise. But it should be the first port of call and not final and in no case should it have any power above that of state courts. Frankly mia biwi raaji to kyaa karega kaaji. Fighting a court case is not as easy as it may sounds to you. I have personal experience and think, its waste of time for all parties most of the time.

But the more important point is the State and its power. Today Indian state is totally toothless, and our leaders have no courage. Remember Jyoti basu coming out of UPA meeting when he said that Sonia did not become PM as she feared for her life. And that is true. You may think that RSS cannot kill, but let me tell you at that point because of the environment created by tantrum queen Uma and Sushma, many many hindus would have assasinated Sonia. Offcourse we know that Congress can get the spine to shoot on Hindu militant but will never dare touch Muslim fundamentalists. And its fear more than any crocodile tear for muslims that makes congressi and leftists cowards not to act against Muslims.
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
55
"Recently I read three items in the Indian press: one, that a Dalit youth had been savagely beaten in Tamil Nadu by caste Hindus because he dared to wear shoes;" - The primary reason for this kind of behaviour is socio-economic. The people who practice this kind of violence are predominantly OBCs. However, talk of caste and all hell breaks loose on the Brahmins' head even though he may be a 1,000 miles away. The "Caste System" as can be referenced from any traditional source has been eradicated in all effect. What remains is endogamous communities jostling for socio-economic power. If you look at it dispassionately the same kind of attitude informs Christian and Muslim behaviout towards their "lower class" brethren or Marathi attitude towards Tamil immigrants, etc., - enough to prove that it is not a "Hindu" problem alone. Enough said.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
54
GIRI I think the Congress and Left are the biggest cowards. They should tell Muslims that enough is enough, back of or the Law will actually take its own course. And they must fire to Kill a couple of thousands to send the message that state can be violant and ruthless. In Similar vain they should simply ask Dalits to convert to anything but Hinduism and Islam. And use whatever power that is required to do so. Between a Great India and mediocre India, these are 2 main issues that stand.
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
53
Lalit, Denying caste reality in India is like denying the violance of Islam. I think one thing that shames me is the castism of Hindus Idiots who would be happy to wash the white's chaddies loose no chance to humiliate the SC's. Infact contrary to popular belief, OBC's are worse than Brahmins in comtempary India when it comes to exploiting SC's. I have personally been mocked many times by my upper caste fellows for supporting SC candidates in my Village. Sometimes its not tolerable.

Frankly I will not mind if all of Dalits can be converted to Christanity without the demographic repurcations. But would fight a jihad with Islamists if they wanted the Dalits into their fold :)

But anyways, the most that I love is bashing congressi and chamchas and leftists for fooliing us for long in name of SC's welfare!
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
52
If I try to expound on Hinduism or the Hindus, I would probably look as foolish as the last two posters.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
51
Cynic-Learner
_________________

It must have been a great effort and research to have come up with your ideas .

It is of utmost importance, and no one talks about it.Mohammeds dreams and claims are accepted without enquiry or doubt. And it seems very plausible that some of this may have been due to his militant approach. Believe in me or suffer the consequences.

The law of blasphemy seems to have been devised so no one could question the faith, and the law of apostasy seems to have been made to stop any one fom deserting from the ranks. And they have worked to a large extent.

Consider the fate of Salman Rushdie, Tasleema Nasrin, Irshad Manji, and now Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
Let me say that these dissidents are the ones who are respected in the west, and not the so called educated muslims, who are silent supporters of the orthodoxy of Islam. They are quiet when there is need to support dissent.

Martin Luther reformed the catholic faith , but he had many brave supporters, who were punished at first. Likewise there have some in the Hindu faith like Vivekananda who tried to make a new path-

Your article deserves greater attention and debate, as it goes into the heart of the controversey of Islam. The dreams and legacy of one man who lived 1400 years ago in Mecca has changeed the lives of so many people, caused so
many wars and strife, and no one amongst his followers dare question his legacy.

However in history some strong men have managed to do the same. Adolf Hitler hyped up the German people to fight the whole world, worship him as a messiah, and ultimately it all ended in Nuremberg.

The same happened in China where the red gaurds
idolised Mao- millions died, millions suffered-
All of this is recorded in Jang Chang books.

It seems amazeing how even educated, cultivated people can fall for religion and nationalism.

Lukily I was born in a tolerant Hindu family where debate was permitted, and I rejected at the age of 8 all belief in gods and godesses,the sacred Ganga mata, and reposed my trust in pure reason.

I have not regretted it ever.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
50
Lalit:

Many thanks for that reply. It made good sense and was good to hear. Let us hope other Hindus will take this sane line....
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
49
Lalit:

Many thanks for that reply. It made good sense and was good to hear. Let us hope other Hindus will take this sane line....
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
48
Lalit:

Many thanks for that reply. It made good sense and was good to hear. Let us hope other Hindus will take this sane line....
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
47
After all these discussions of fatwas, it is amazing to see that some people have not understood even the most basic and simple description of fatwas. Some people just prefer to be ignorant.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
46
A comment from one of our well spoken muslim.
"These people are not qualified to give fatwas"
As if there are indeed some people who are.

In democratic, and liberal states no one is allowed to give fatwas, or such like. The law
takes care of all criminal, and civil issues. However the muslims wanted their own muslim code,
based on the sharia, and the ruleings of thir religious bodies.

Educated muslims supported the Muslim special law, which meant that they opted out of the laws
framed in the constitution.

Amazeingly they have not managed to do so in Denmark. Despite many-too many -concessions to muslim, this at least will not happen.

All problems of fatwa etc would be resolved by following the Indian set of laws-

Any takers amongst the true believers. ??
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Dec 06, 2005 12:00 AM
45
Thomas Nile
___________

Speaking for myself and my family.

A dalit widow along with another muslim woman
stayed in my sisters house in New Delhi. They came to exhibit some hand made goods at an exhibition- Delhi Haat.

They were driven to the exhibition every day
and had food served in the family kitchen. I am good friends with the muslim lady.- fazli, and we got on fine. She rings me up once in a while, in order forme to help in building her house in a village in Haryan. And she shames me to do it,Amazing what 200 usd can do,

The dalit family we know has a tv, and I have chats with Ram Chandra a dalit who lives in the village.

If there are Hindu nuts who misbehave. well I am amazed, stunned, and given a chance would shoot the bastards., However most of the Hindus I know in Delhi, have no caste prejudices.

But we must do more for them, and I will look into this when I am in Delhi in early 2006. And thats a promise.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
44
Lalit:

I don't think you have grasped my main point. There is nothing for the Hindus to feel smug about vis-a-vis the Muslims. Both are in the deepest mess, and maybe the Hindus are in a worse one. The Muslims are ferociously intolerant of all non-Muslims: true enough. But the caste Hindus are ferociously and bloodily intolerant too: only they crush members of their OWN religion, the Dalits. The intolerant Muslims are cruel; the caste Hindus are both cruel and suicidally stupid.

Both are in desperate need of enlightenment and far-reaching social reform.

Recently I read three items in the Indian press: one, that a Dalit youth had been savagely beaten in Tamil Nadu by caste Hindus because he dared to wear shoes; another, that a Dalit family was beaten up and its house wrecked in Haryana because it dared to own a TV; and the third that a Dalit woman had been badly beaten by caste Hindus in Tamil Nadu because she went into a temple and offered water to a statue of a cow.
I am aware that these are minor events compared to the mass killings of Dalits that often happen.

Incidentally, note: none of this has to do with the Dalits in question being "dirty", the dirty and mindless excuse caste Hindus always use to excuse their inhuman prejudice against Dalits.
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
43
Saba's article does well what it sets out to do namely explain what fatwa really means, how fatwas or opinions are being issued by people who are not qualified to do so, and how fatwas are made out to be a lot more than what they are supposed to be. While some Sanghis may consider this to be another opportunity for them to jump in and vent their anti-Muslim venom, this is just a reflection of their agenda of not only painting the worst possible picture of Islam that they can, but to resist and mock the efforts of the liberals and the reformists, as if such efforts would eventually deprive them of their favorite whipping boy. I would assume that OUTLOOK published this article because there may be a sizeable proportion of Muslims in its readership because it seems to be addressed mainly to the Muslim community who would do well to read it.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
42
Giri,
There is no use trying to reason with the likes of NoHead. The main problem is the p-secs who have pampered the likes of NoHead to the extent that they feel they are entitled to hold the most illogical and unreasonable views and the rest of society should bend over backward to accomodate their medieval nonsense. As long as we tolerate the p-secs and apologists, these NoHeads will keep popping up.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
41
Mr/Ms/Mrs.Naheed No-head,
Why does your community refuse to practice contraception in a country that has a population problem?
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
40
Mr/Ms/Mrs.Naheed No-head,
"Not long back many hindus practised Sati, " - The relvant question is - how many incidences of Sati do you know of in the past decade? Among 800 million+ Hindus? You know why that is? Because Hindus have recognized Sati as incompatible with modern values, have questioned it and have taken responsiblility to reform their religion of that practice.
"and about gender equality I would like to say that why the sex ratio is so skewed in posh localities of Delhi ?" - the socio-economic constraints of a middle-class Hindu family that has to support millions of uneducated, unemployable, useless, criminalized and brainwashed idiots that breed like pigs is the reason why.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
39
Naheed
________

When in London I watched a Islamic TV programme.
I did not understand the Arabic verses, but I read the texts.

One said very clearly that nonblievers would end in hell fire.Nonmuslims are kaffirs and infidels.

Islamic web sites have killing of jews as a regular feature.

And finally if Islam is such a wonderful religion, why is that you have such rotten and cruel societies, in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Afghansiatan.

The only other explanation is that Islam is a wonderful religion but no one amongst the clerics or elite understands it. Neither do most of the people who are dogmatic, supersticious.

Finally why do muslims want to travel to other countries by all sort of legal illegal immigration as well, if they have such a wonderful religion, which should help them build their own good societies.In Denmark most muslims
berate the Danes but will not leave unless they are deported. Hypocracy I call it.

Why is that few people want to visit Pakistam or Iran,

One thing is clear. It is the muslims who want to live with nonmuslims, and not the other way around. And quite honestly I do not wish to live in a muslim society or move in muslim circles.
This does not make a me a fascist or anything like that. Many many Danes share my opinions.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
38
Thomas Nile
_____________

I hate glorification of Hindus doing well abroad. Many other people do so, eg Danes, English, Russians etc.

However I came up with this claim to debunk the stupid article of some one who said that foreigners looked down on India. They can not set up giant centres in India if, they had such a bad opinion of India.

By the way Pakistan and Bangladesh are not getting the same input from the best.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
37
Naheed
___________

About a month or so ago a Pakistani muslim girl
was shot and killed in the town square of Slagelse a small town near to us. She was just 18 years old. Her AFghan husband was also shor but survived.

The killer was her brother, and this was a case of honour killing. She had dishonoured her family by marrying outside her community.

Police investigated the matter and discovered that it was a conspiracy and the entire family was involved. About 7 people were arrested and will be charged,

Soon after this a muslim Imam was interviewed on TV. He claimed that Hindus also could have done a similat thing. This was by way of explantion
and as a way to absolve themselves of a terrible crime.

You can attack us Hindus for Sati-the last happened 25 years ago. You can blame us for many other social evils, like caste, the dowry system, but some how or the other no one outside your community has so much talent for outrageous incidents. And after each we hear the usual explanations.

In India muslims always blame the RSS, VHp, the Sanghis for their bad image. It is for this reason why I constantly talk of muslims and Europe. The Europeans have been very liberal, giveing shelter to muslims persecuted in their own countries, permitting family reunification, and treating them generously. Now the cup of tolerance is full, and not a day goes by when they are not maligned. No RSS here.

Khomeini a learned man issued a fatwa against Rushdie which lasted 10 years, He had to be protected by police. Mulims in Mumbai collected a crowd of 100,000 demanding a book ban. All sorts of threats were issued by Indian muslims.

WEhere were you moderate muslims. Where do you stand when muslim dissidents speak up and require police protection. I refer to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Irshad Manji, Tasleema Nasrin and so on.I can tell you. You are quiet and in communicado.

You guys are quiet til some one steps on your toes. You can stand any amount of injustice from your own kind, but not even a bit of advise from us others.

A few days ago some Danish cartoonists on assignment from their paper drew some cartoons of Mohammmed. There were thousands of muslims on the street, diplomatic protests, and then a fatwa issued by a muslim organisation offering 50,000 Pakistani rupees to any one who would kill the cartoonists.The people who made threats are all educated people, but not civilised I must say.

I agree with one reader. We nonmuslims are tired debateing with you. Do what ever you wish, but away from us all. We nonmuslims do not complain
about executions every friday in the town square of Riyadh. Lashing of men and women for drinking alchohal. The list of Sharia punishments go on. Do you deny these.??

As I suggested we Hindus should be grateful that muslims live mostly apart. So on a daily basis
there should not be problems. I have nothing against madrasshas, your mosques and your imams , fatwas. Carry on as you wish.

. Fortunately I do not have anything to do with them,

lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
36
Naheed, the same denial happens over and again. Before you accuse others of lying look at yourself and you too mind the words. Probably it's better to back off than issue denial after denial. If we really hated muslims then most of us would have made sure that they never existed with us. To use your own words this is plain lie and I must think this as yet a typical accusation from a muslim when confronted with these situations.

As I said there are hundreds of verses in Quran and few were quoted earlier. It is no use as we will get no where with your typical denial and 'twisting' approach. Just the one verse is enough to scare off any sane individual. "Kill the infidels". Why don't you accept that this is indeed true and exists in Quran. Also why have you not explained about the gruesome beheadings happening in the background of Quran recitals.
These terrorist animals quote straight from the Quran. Please don't deny.

Re Sudarshan's comments it is insane to even think about that. The population growth of muslims has far exceeded that of hindus sinc independance. Can you explain why?

Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
35
sure....there is so much proof that Mohammad visited Heaven, came back alive. How about another (and final) visit to Heaven atop his winged horse ?
Quran and thereby Islam is an utterly superstitious cult. How come Allah is obsessed about the giving more wives to Mohammad than other muslims ?
Muslims are in denial because they belive in outragiously irrational claims like above. It is difficult to accept that what one believes faithfully is buncum, so it is natural for those confronted with facts to remain in denial, claim oppression, see ghosts of enemies where there are none. In fact it won't bother me a bit if muslims are backward, irrational IF it would not affect my life. BUT, the duties of muslims , both rulers and ruled, include Jehad, which imposes a perpetual war on non-muslims until they are killed or converted. Being the less educated, and more fanatical than rest of society in any developed/developing non-muslim majority country, they have a direct adverse effect on the economy of the nation.

Why should non-muslims of India work hard to provide free money to muslim madarsas, or J&K government which cares two hoots for non-muslim citizens of the state
?
---------------------------------------------
----
in islam what matters is proof. If a so called learned theologian or mullah gives his views which are not substantiated by proofs from Quran & Sunnah then it will not be accepted.
Cynic_Learner
Delhi, India
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
34
hi All
fromm the way i see this artcle its more useful for retrospection for muslims themselves. i think most of the messages posted in the begining were doing the same, but then someone started it all gaian, the Hindu-MUSLIM Comparison. So come on muslims be patient, its for us to undderstand that still there are few people within us who will take fatwa from any tom-dick and harry with a topi and beard as binding! So now instead of telling good things about islam or what islam is all about lets take the responsiblity of enlightning at least one fellow muslim about this so that the follower base of these typical mullah who can irresponsibly issue fatwas can gradually erode. And please All, please stop name calling

For the Hindus posting messages:: please note that while u r perfectly justified that these mullahs do have a follower base but please note that at least 80% of the people reading outlook or would be updated enuff to read outlook on web wont be from that category. As muslims we understand and agree that there is class of such ignorant muslims, but the good news is that its shrinking and alr3eady enlightened muslims are realising their reponsiblity in getting this stigma of ignorance and illiteracy uprooted.

How good it would have been if someone instead of accusing ( or making muslims realise their faults) would have realised this as a problem for INdia and suggested some strategy/way out and asked for muslim cooperation in that. Try it i assure you you will find so many willing to help.

waiting to be tried and executed
Mohammad Moonis
moonis
guildford, UK
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
33
Well, we can go on debating about Islam and Hindusim till the cows come home and there would still be no result.

But I would like to point out what Ms Saba writes.

The Maulana, apparently says, "But if she looks provocative outside, she will only invite trouble for herself. You are therefore advised not to use make-up outside the house and to dress simply while fulfilling your responsibility at work."

And she goes on to write: "The good maulana's advice is not very different from what the Delhi Police or one's grandparents might say. But because it comes with the words fatwa tagged on, it can be hyped to sound sensational."

In a way she seems to be agreeing to what the "good" Maulana is saying and is implying that it is right as long as the Maulana does not call it a "fatwa".

Now, I wonder, if she would have been so indulgent, if someone from the Saffron Brigade, Bal Thackeray, Sudarshan etc etc said the same thing - that women who dress provocatively invite trouble.

Again, I guess we can debate about the double standards of the p-sec media till the cow come home and still have no result.
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
32
Lalit:

I don't understand why you think some Hindus doing well in the West is such a big deal. This is part of a story that has been going on for a century or more: look at Gandhi having to go to South Africa to make a career as a lawyer, the Indians who created rich trading communities in East and South Africa, the large Sikh community in British Columbia, the quite prosperous Hindus of the UK, etc. Now some more are going abroad. But there are also people of many other backgrounds who are successful emigrants in the West. Some Muslim communities are stuck in sullen backwardness in Europe, true enough. But I don't see what the Hindu migrants of today have to crow about so much. And it is pathetic to believe a few million (at most) Hindu migrants becoming prosperous abroad can help to solve the problems of India in any substantial way. At the moment it is only a limited upper and middle class in India which is gaining anything from economic growth. For the rest, reports indicate life is becoming even harsher than before. Indians have no sense of equality - that is India's great weakness. They don't have it in them to do anything for their poor. The countries of East Asia made their populations literate and healthy before they undertook industrialisation. India is trying to develop a modern economy on the basis of mass destitution.
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
31
Two typos in the message below: in line 4 of the second paragraph I meant to write "Dalits" and "dismissed".
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
30
Lalit:

If Hindus could rid themselves of their caste system and its incredible cruelty, the Muslims would be a problem India could well contain. It is because the Hindus have no sense of unity that the Indian political system is held hostage by a Muslim community controlled by a mediaeval priesthood.

There is little point in blaming Muslims for India's troubles. The real culprit is the astounding hard-heartedness of the upper caste Hindus towards the Dalits, Tribals and OBCs. The Dalis and Tribals are commonly dismmissed as a "dirty lot" by the average upper caste Hindu. At the same time, he will fight like a wild cat to have them listed as Hindus in the Census - for he knows that otherwise the overall Hindu majority in the country is weakened. It is a uniqely wicked and mean attitude, even by the world's terrible standards of hypocrisy and meanness. Don't quote the example of the US Blacks, by the way. They are not regarded by the Whites as part of their community, nor are the US Whites faced with a huge internal Muslim population that could threaten its dominance. Only the upper caste Hindus are stupid, cruel and suicidal enough to persecute and ostracise a huge part of their own community. They have paid a very heavy price historically for this, and will pay an even greater one in the future. This situation leaves India vulnerable to Islamic expansionism. India will become an Islamic country, not a superpower.
Thomas Nile
London, United Kingdom
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
29
Peter Micheal
--------------

I have just read that JP Morgan -Chase one of the biggest US bank is moveing 30 % of its
back office functions to India. They will hire 4500 engineers, because they think that India is full of talent.

After liveing in Denmark for many years, and talking to finance people, politicians I can say that people whilst realiseing that India has serious problems are also well awere that it is a country of top talent,

I do not know the sort off people you meet, what newspaers you read, but let me say that you appear to be out of touch with reality.

Finally you are being plain silly. Jack Welch, Bill Gates and dozens of chiefs of the largest mnc¨s will agree with me there.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
28
I realise that its wrong and pointless for me
to comment any more on the muslims issue.

However whilst reading the book "The book seller in Kabul" I cam across the 16 edicts passed by the Taliban. They seemed to reflect the basic
thinking behind Islam and the muslim religion.

It may not appeal to so called moderate muslims, but nevertheless that is what Islam seems to say.
Furthermore the Taliban had the strong support of Jamaat i Islami- and has it also today. The Taliban also got support from Saudi Arabia-the spiritual home of Islam, and Pakistan- another centre of muslim religion.

How can muslims Faruki and Naheed deny this. Are they more learned in Islamic theology then the clerics in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and India. Absolute rubbish, and a case of fooling oneself and all of us.

Just look at the women -covered in black- and you can see that they are doing it out of their own free will. They believe ardently in their religion, and are asking just for just a slight amaleriotion of their condition,On the whole they accept the submission that is their lot.
In the book seller of kabul novel, Ase Seijrstad
the Norwegian journalist writes how difficult and uncomfortable it was to wear the burqa. In heat she could hardly breathe, and hardly see, but it was liberating in the sense that muslim men left her alone. This is unthinkable in Denmark and Europe.

However my message is , as always.

Let us nonmuslims leave the muslims alone. Let
us not get ourselves tied in knots trying to understand their religion, culture and way of thinking. It hopeless to try ,and we will get no thanks if we do. Even ordinary reasonable suggestions to them are percieved with suspicion and hostility.

Muslims live in mini Pakistans in India.
That in a way is a sensible solution . That at least for the moment seems alright to me. The rest of India can move forward, as best it can, under the rule of its corrupt and distatseful politicians and leaders.

To Indian liveing abroad- we are fortunate that we live in decent societies, free of corruption and hypocracy. And maybe we can do something useful for our country of birth - hopefully soon or whenever we can.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
27
Thanks Outlook for giving the Fatwa issue the right angle. Its the media which just jumps on anything that any self-proclaimed maulana/maulvi utters or mutters. A FATWA is nothing but an OPINION given out by a person, and is only as relevant or important as the person's understanding goes.

Thus attributing a completely Islamic angle, as though that is the thought process of all Muslims is grossly incorrect. The media should take on its own responsibilities on who they approach and make it clear that these are personal views of these people, who unfortunately in search of an identity, pounce upon such opportunities to be seen, heard and talked-to!.

I am a Muslim and to me the way of life, called Islam, is amply explained in the Quran and very well demonstrated by the Prophet Mohammed(Peace be upon Him) through his acts.

Thanks again for clarifying these.

Regards,
Arif Jameel
Arif Jameel
Dubai, UAE
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
26
Naheed, it just beats me. As giri puts it, you guys liv in perpetual denial. When confronted with solid evidence the best you do is you retreat no responses to specific questions. You quote your Koran as it suits you. Very generously you quote verses but when we counter by quoting those violent verses (satanic verses as Rushdie put it and the result was there for all to see) you ask us to read the verse before and after.

You are joking big time when you say "Islam preaches thinking logically and not accepting anything without proof". Don't accept the Quran when it says all infidels burn in hell. So according to your Quran the great and world recognised people like Einstein, Mother Theresa, Mahatma Gandhi, Thomas Alva Edison, Isaac Newton,
Mahavira, Buddha, Guru Nanak etc. etc. etc
are burning in hell.

What proof can you provide. Since there is no
proof then the Quran is not factual. Can I
then take it that you will not accept it.

You must have strained yourself to pick one verse chap 9:31. As I was scouring the Quran to reach this verse I had to browse thru hundreds of dreadful verses which put me off. Why don't you mention atleast a few of them. Please don't deny yet again their existence.

Muslims all across spectrum have been tutored by the mullahs to hate jews. I can challenge you that many muslims, say in Malaysia or Indonesia may not even have seen a jew but they blame jews for every calamity. The evil jews are blamed for the tsunami, they are blamed for the earth quakes and of course they are blamed for palestine. Why should these muslims blame the joooos without any proof. Simple, the Quran asks them to hate jews, period. The mullahs do the job every friday. No questions asked, if you do, you become a jew yourself.

Islam is stranded in 7th century. The terrorists are so stupid they follow the teachings of Mohammed to the word not realising that it could be changed, I mean a little bit, to suit the present day. Take for example these beheadings. The ultimate aim of the terrorist as it was with Muhammad's army was to kill the 'enemy'. The best tool at his disposal was just the sword. So knock off the head. Can't the terrorist use guns in 21st century instead of the primitive sword, to make it a little quicker instead of the agonising death. The reason is they don't think. Forget the brutality they are perpetuating they cannot even think.

So much for logical thinking in Islam!
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
25

If any tom,dick and harry can give fatwas on islamic issues and interpret in his own ways and come out with a ruling. Who is to decide what is the right one?
Languages come and go and the meanings of words get modified over a period of time even over period of couple of decades. The meaning of words/sentences depends on the context - environment, the existing cultural background etc. A book meant for desert people cannot be understood by plains people unless they try to live in that environment and culture for sometime. How can a book claim to decide right or wrong which was written 1200 hundred to 2000 years old with absolute certainity. It is relativism with the book used as a authority without anybody trying to understand what the author intended to mean.
The way the whole thing gets power is by conversion and ex-communication. The fatwa and other monotheistic practices get legitimacy by the power of the top boss to ex-communicate the dissenter.
Can somebody hands be chopped because one of the various intrepretation of the Book asks for it and other does not. How can anybody do that if the decision itself is a question and open to intrepretation?
Don't people have commonsense and question the decision passed on to him or is it miltary where decision are not to be questioned.
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
24
I realise that discussing Fatwas and the Islamic faith will never result in a consensus.The western media , thinkers have given up. If muslims were willing to change then there would be no problems today in India or elsewhere.

However its of interest to me that whilst muslims are become more and more radical in Europe they are more restrained in the USA.
Maybe the clerics there are scared to preach
Islam in its original form.

They are not in Denmark. Muslim clerics talk of the beauty of Sharia laws, stoneing of unfaithful women, cutting of the hands of thieves.

France has taken stern measures. No hijab,prayers are allowed in school. Clerics preaching bigotry are deported.

I think Denmark will end up doing the same. The rightist parties have this on their programme.
Expulsion of immigramts who indulge in unlawful activities, and retraining clerics in line with Danish thinking.

Just firmness and threats of expulsion may do a bit of good. Just exhortation to muslims to accept a liberal way of thinking has not helped.

I notice that the very modest requests for reform are being made by muslim women. We know the opinion of muslim men who write here. They do not even accept that there is a problem any where unless it is with the rest of us.

The wicked Sanghis, chaddis , RSS fascists,
infidels and so on.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
23
Peter Michael should identify the country from which he comes. I can almost guarantee that country does *not* have India's experience and intelligence in handling and accomodating diversity. Instead, this twit pokes fun at some trivial, inconsequential practices which don't really affect anyone outside India, and even within India, are hardly of any political or economic consequence. Grow up, and start appreciating the good things about India, while taking note of the bad, and I don't mean people offering milk to Ganesha. That's really neither good nor bad.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
22
Perhaps Selvan's logic would lead one to say that the only true Hinduism is the one that practises rigid casteism as well as sati, as if Vivekanand and Gandhi never existed. It seems that those mullas who want to literally follow the laws as written 1400 years ago rather than understand the underlying essential principles are the very ones the Sanghis would hold up as true Muslims. There is strategy in this, a nefarious one.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
21
Commenters need to take note that the Mullahs issue fatwa based on Quran/Sunnah/Islamic jurisprudence based on their glorious(??) history..

recently it has become a fashion to blame the illiterate Mullahs and somehow absolve Islam.. Don't fall for it.. Though the Mullahs maybe illiterate in the modern secular education sense, they are completely and fully literate in their fatwas /pronouncements based on Islam.

Islam is a deadly cult that controls all aspects of human life and they are just organs in this big machinery.. You can find proof for all their pronouncements in Quran/Sunnah/fatwas..

Please don't blame the poor Mullahs. It has been a pseudo-secular ploy to absolve Islam of its crimes towards humanity..
Selvan
Boston, United States
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
20
Peter Michael has hit the nail on its head.

The problem is not those questions. The problem is generalisation of islam. One fatwa is considered sacred for all muslims. Fatwa should become a personal injunction to a muslim for his own needs.

But muslims in general and muftis in particular make it a big issue. Did Sania Mirza went to someone to ask what kind of clothes i should wear then why did a mufti announce a fatwa. When a fatwa is supposed to be given to a person who comes in doubt then why these absurd fatwas against salman rushdie, taslima nasreen, sania mirza. These people did not come to maulvis to ask advise.

Further these fatwas should be given in the confines of the home and not in press conferences. These fatwas should be given to only people who come and want to ask opinions regarding there personal and family matters. These fatwas as proclaimed to be are opinions should be treated as opinions and on giving of fatwas hordes of muslims should not come down to streets and start howling and shouting and screaming to get the job done.

Fatwas as being considered an opinion should be treated so. Nothing more nothing less and they should be a personal opinion for an individual who has come with a particular doubt regarding his personal family matter.

Hindus dont make an issue out of pouring milk at ganesh. They dont goto a pandit to get instructions. They do it out of there own faith. It is not supersition it is faith. Faith on almighty.

Islam should follow some of the great spiritual tenets of hinduism. It should get more personal than organised.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Dec 05, 2005 12:00 AM
19
ASAD, you say, ".... when they can not find a clear guideline on a certain issue, they may refer their personal case to a Mufti and get his opinion." But earlier you had said, "Because Islam has no centralized priestly hierarchy, there is no uniform method to determine who can issue a valid fatwa and who cannot"

We can keep repeating that a fatwa or an opinion is not binding, but in the eyes of many simple villagers it carries an authoritative air. They may accept even a bizarre fatwa as being valid, put it into effect, and invite the mocking interst of a headline-hungry press. The effort should be in the direction of how to prevent these situations, rather than how to explain them.


Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 04, 2005 12:00 AM
18
Naheed and his muslim brethren continue to miss the point. Yes there are many superstitious hindus with this kind of behaviour in the 21st century, but the majority are sane and use their heads (not hearts) in thinking logically unlike the majority of muslims who take diktats from their mullahs. No pujari can give me diktat, that's for sure. I, as a hindu, have grown with times unlike your fatwa based religion.
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 04, 2005 12:00 AM
17
PETER MICHAEL you are indeed right...I feel like laughing When I see people in west who think Wine is Holy drink...and God created Animals for Men to eat...and Animals are no more than just farm commodities to be manufactured in factories...and the world is indeed flat and the rest is zionist conspiracy...and when in west people think there is only One God and rest are fools...and idol worship is actually worshipping false Gods and Jesus said so.....the list is endless.

But in London It feels less like a Joker being Hindu than in India...I dont know why? Maybe becuase I know Christians are no less Jokers!!!!!
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 04, 2005 12:00 AM
16


The book seller from Kabul

About mullahs and so forth,I have just started reading "The book seller from Kabul" written by a Norwegian women novelist Åse Seijerstad. It is a first hand account of this remarkable woman journalist who lived with the book sellers wives, children, mother and sister. I have just read 19 pages, but it is remarkable in its depiction of Afghan society, its men and women.

I think it will be valuable for all muslims and hindus to read actual accounts of whats happening in the muslim world. Facts are better then fiction, and will clear many misunderstandings for all. Maybe it will result in a change in the way we think, though am not sure.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Dec 04, 2005 12:00 AM
15
I guess the best way to get attention to your writing is to comment on islam or muslims. The authors of this articel have gone way astray in their attmept to get noticed. Its amazign what words can do. This "looks like a serious comment" but is more of "I also have something to say about islam and muslims (whatever that something may be)".
I do agree with some of what is inside the articel BUT do not see anything stupid with the fatwas mentioned in the beginning, which are presented to give the reader a "so stupid and ignorant" feeling right from the beginning.
Religion is a mtter of personal belief and if the questions asked relate to a person's belief why should someone else like the authors have a problem with that. Even people without religion do thinngs that are utterly stupid but are considered so urbane especially to us Indians just because our masters the britishers taught us so. How much sense does it make to adopt to wear pants, shirts and ties. How stupid is a person considered if he decides to wear a dhoti to college. No one except the so called right wingers talk about encouraging regional or hindi langauge as a mode of education. To look forward to becoming an officer with a suit is the dream which even the authors might have for themsleves or thier kids and it must be making perfect sense to them. How much sense do thousands of men and women dancing infront of idols of ganesha make, or howmuch sense does it make for anyone to stand infront of an idol in the mornming and say "O god helpme in my exmas". If you step out of india they laugh at he fact that indians bow to cows and owl and rats are holy animals. How much sense does it make when godmen like the siababas have a following of people like TN Seshan. How much sense does it make when a brahmin put the white cord around his ear while he pees. Howmuch sense does it make when you consider putting your feet on a book as unrespectful and the list is endless.
Bottom line .. leave people's faith to people if you do not beleive inwhat they beleive keep your views to yoursels as so much of what you do might be utterly senseless and moronic and you might be taking pride in it as it appeals to your narrow/broad/twisted mind.
Peter Michael
ganjbasoda, India
Dec 04, 2005 12:00 AM
14
ASAD-UL GABA >>>The most unfortunate dilemma is that majority of the people (including Muslims) fail to understand the definition of “fatwa”.

My Take:
The problem is that For Muslims the time has been frozen to 750 AD when the first quran was written and assuming it was great compilation at the time of writing, might have been great for that period. While the rest of world has moved on with time, mostly ignoring whatever are there in scriptures / bible etc; and learned and accepted the current version of truth, UNFORTUNATELY majority of Muslims have choosen to remain hostage to fanatic idea.

Aided and abated by a) Politicians in Western world and in b) offcourse our Indian politicians. AND U KNOW WHY? Because even though intellectually and intelligently muslims are the most backwords of any other socio/ religious groupings, they continue to be sitting on the most important resource that we have on earth....Oil. So it suits Prof. Natwar Singh or M/s Cheney , Bush and Blair to keep Muslims in the hands of mullas as long as they can get some haram ka petro-dollar.

UNFORTUNATELY PROBLEM is illeterate muslims will not understand why in western world people do not respect either the church or the state, not atleast before his/ her own self interest.

Understand this well my friend, the day the world has alternative source of energy, Muslims will face the truth from the same people who are saying " Islam is the religion of peace" ! Ms Sonia Gandhi and Mr. Mehta included.
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 04, 2005 12:00 AM
13
We are always back to the subject of muslims.
Anyway I will relate a current story from Denmark.

About 5o mulims in a high school were permitted to hold prayers every friday in a special room. However teachers discovered that the prayers were followed by debates against the nasty Danish government, against the rotten teachers, and a guidance to all that they should join Hizb Ut Tahrir, a fundamentalist Islamic organisation, This organisation has a programme which aims at dismantleing of democracy, and founding a world wide Caliphate, with Sharia.

The principle was upset and hereafter the permission for common prayers was withdrawn,
This led to the entire muslim student body shouting slogans and walking out of the assembly hall. These are not ignorant people we are talking about, and these are people who are getting a free education at a level which is same
as in say Delhi public school. Many of the parents are on well fare. About 50 %

What ever the ignorant Hindus do- giveing milk to
a Hindu god- or any other such odd practice, they do not talk of dismantleing democracy, and
resorting to terrorism around the clock.

In debates in Europe this point is manifestly made clear. IT IS THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY, AND NOT OTHER COMMUNITIES WHICH ARE A SOURCE OF CEASELESS PROBLEMS IN EUROPE,

I am sure there will be lots of explanations, denials which we will hear now and in the future.

However its not us in the outlook website debates who matter. The problems which relate to muslims will have to be sorted out by them, and western society and western governments. These are much less tolerant then the secularists in India, who tie themselves in knots in finding surrealistic explanation for the muslims community in their midst.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Dec 04, 2005 12:00 AM
12
The most unfortunate dilemma is that majority of the people (including Muslims) fail to understand the definition of “fatwa”.
A fatwa (plural fatâwa), is a legal pronouncement in Islam, issued by a religious law specialist on a specific issue. Usually a fatwa is issued at the request of an individual or a judge to settle a question where “fiqh,’’ Islamic jurisprudence, is unclear. A scholar capable of issuing fatâwa is known as a Mufti.
Because Islam has no centralized priestly hierarchy, there is no uniform method to determine who can issue a valid fatwa and who cannot, and upon whom such fatâwa are binding. Muftis are Islamic scholars specialized in Islamic jurisprudence. However, as ten different lawyers or doctors with same qualification and experience may have different opinion of different issues, the opinion of Muftis may also differ.
Several times a fatwa is the opinion of an individual Muslim scholar, conferred to an individual under unique circumstances. Therefore, a fatwa is not binding on all the Muslims in general.
When do you ask for fatwa?
If you have common cold or headache, you may take a couple of paracetamol tablets. However, if things get worst you go to a doctor, who diagnoses your case and prescribes medicines. You can not go home and prescribe the medicines to all the patients with similar symptoms. Similarly, in day to day life the Muslims can find spiritual guidance from their elders or Islamic literature available to them. However, when they can not find a clear guideline on a certain issue, they may refer their personal case to a Mufti and get his opinion.
I think it is the media that makes a hype of the fatwas and the ignorant Muslims fall prey to it. Most of those who have commented on your article, including the writer, are unfortunately astray.
asad-ul gaba
Baroda, India
Dec 04, 2005 12:00 AM
11
While everyone will agree that the mullahs are a crazy lot living in 7th century I am perturbed by very educated muslims who ask stupidest of questions. Visit some of forums of islamic sites and I assure you, you will have a hilarious time. Questions on how best (so that allah is not offended) to pee, make love, spit and other ridiculous questions are answered by the Islamic experts.

No wonder we have these fanatical muslims around the world who want to chop off any one's head for questioning the hadiths and suras.
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Dec 04, 2005 12:00 AM
10
It made for crazy stuff. I wonder which nut actually approaches these dim wits or bothers about the nonsense they speak. And just a bit to the title of the article - an Ayatollah is a Shia Muslim title while the 'fatwas' you quoted were all from the Sunni school of thought. Shia theologians pass 'fatwa' on the rarest of occassions and only on extremely important matters concerning the community as a whole.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Dec 04, 2005 12:00 AM
9
ET TU SABA?

Is the whiff of fresh air full of unbiased neutral scent of unedited, free of political compulsion, uncontaminated, and substantiated stories, opinions, and news blowing from our Muslim centric Outlook for a change?
Or do you suspect hidden agenda and usual ulterior motive by one of India’s opportunist, and self- serving exploiters of our gullible and rather easy to fool poor illiterate, and frightened secular vote bank in India?
Or do you deduce that our wily Congressi leopard is trying to cover its secular spots by painting Hindutva spots over its ‘secular’ credential to prove to the cynical and wary Hindus that the Congress party is not biased and love them too. And see how unbiased the Indian secular gang is by reporting the shortcomings of the Muslim religion too?
It seems that Saba in the article is indirectly pleading to the cynical Indian Hindus to vote for his/her Congress party by writing such an explosive anti-Muslim article in the Outlook. So this is how our wily secular Congress and its sycophant scribes try to wiggle their way out from the self-created cynical vote bank politics of survival!

Is Saba’s article worth some value and commendable or should we be wary and thoroughly chew on the content of the article before we go gaga over it? I find this article most unusual and out of character written by one of India’s most prolific Muslim centric and anti-Hindu Outlook scribe.
And can you imagine this sobering opinionated article is published just about when the Outlook’s Congress master’s secular ship is about to sink in the tempestuous sea of ‘hot’ oil from the Country Of Fatwa. And not only that but when the mutinous and wary Muslims vote bank sailors has started abandoning the battered secular ship of many promises, and when the Muslim crew began to realize that the fearsome and vicious Hindu pirates who were suppose to attack the secular ship were only phantoms!
So now our secular masters in New Delhi are trying to recruit Hindu sailors to save the Congress ship from sinking by trying to soften the blow by criticizing Muslims for abandoning their sinking ship in the Sea of Scandal and Corruption.
And all these four pages of blasphemy written by one very specialized Congress party’s full time ‘sycophant for life’, only to help the Congress party to survive by poaching votes from the opposition camp. The Congress party is trying to cook the book and then balance the vote bank’s account in their favour.
Raj
Toronto, Canada
Dec 04, 2005 12:00 AM
8
Cynic Lerner, I was talking about influencing the mullas who issue the stupid fatwas, and whether the seminaries have the power to change these semi-educated mullas' practices. You may have been exposed to different kinds of Muslims than I was, but the Indian ( as well as other) Muslims I knew and know did not and do not want to kill any Hindus or Jews. Dar-ul-Islam means any land where Muslims are secure and can practice their religion freely. Both india and America are Dar-ul-Islam.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 04, 2005 12:00 AM
7
GYF,

If seminaries/madarsas had no power, why would polticians of india, including ex prime ministers go to Imams to seek votes ?

These seminaries are not only powerful but also are controlled by people whose only purpose in life is to establish Dar-ul-Islam, by eliminating the land available to us Kafirs.

That is why Friday sermons are hate-filled. Worldwide, many riots do happen after Friday sermons. While the poor average muslims have no idea of what game they are used for, those mullahs definitely have.

Fatwa regime is a most effective manner of exercising control over normal muslims. And being less educated than non-muslims on average, muslims walk straight into the snare. There are Fatwas for innumerable situations...They are not just blurted out by schizophreniac/paranoid mullahs. They are actually sought by normal muslims, because the idea of living one's own life without consideration of religion is absent from a normal muslim's life.

Things are either black or white / Haraam or Halal in Islamic way of life. This is a troublesome attitude for its victim i.e. muslims and the victims of victim i.e. us Kafirs.

For once, see the world not as the mullahs say, not as the Prophet say, not as Quran say...and you will realize that Kafirs aren't so bad that they must be killed, Jews are not are as dangerous as Mohammad declared, and Jinns don't exist.
Until this thing is done...muslims will remain slave to the outlook of 7th centuary bandits who see enemy everywhere, who enjoy mayhem, and who never can live with host societies anywhere in the
world.

====================================
=======
If the seminaries have any influence they should reeducate the mullas to give just one answer to all those who come to them with questions, "Use your common sense". If the question pertains to family law, the party or parties seeking answers should be advised to consult a lawyer or go to a magistrate.
Cynic_Learner
Delhi, India
Dec 04, 2005 12:00 AM
6
>> Syed Mustafa Siraj, Writer: "An aberration in the Muslim community and the media goes to town with it. As for fatwas, no Muslim takes them seriously"

>> Nurur Rehman Barkati, Shahi Iman of Calcutta :"Uneducated mullahs with regressive, dogmatic views issue such fatwas. But most Muslims treat them as a bad joke"

I agree.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 04, 2005 12:00 AM
5
A Danish paper was adacious, reckless, and had a number of cartoons about the prophet in one of its papers. They claimed that it was to test the
limits of press freedom, in view of the large muslim population in the country.

Sure enough a few thousand muslims demonstated .
It is blasphemy to have any picture of the prophet. One young muslim ages 17 threatened to kill the cartoonists, and is now behind bars.
About 11 muslim ambassadors protested to the PM, and asked him to reign in the impudent journalists. He refused- and this has caused much bitternes amongst the muslims.

Now 16000 muslims have signed a protest, and the organisers will travel to Saudi Arabia to find guidance from the clerics there, wrt this issue.

Meanwhile the Danish ambassador in Islamabad has
reported to our government that Jamaat i Islami
has offred a reward of 50000 Pakistan rupees to
any one who will kill the blasphemers.

The long arm of the muslim clerics stretches from Islamabad to a small town in Denmark where the unrepentent paper is located. Meanwhile the poor cartoonists are scared out of their wits,
I bet they did not realise how dangerous an assignment that they had undertaken.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, Brazil
Dec 03, 2005 12:00 AM
4
Nice try! Just a week or two back, Jha was whining about the Iran vote, how the mullahs all over the country are preaching against it and how it would affect the muslims. Or to put it simply, mere words spoken by the mullahs to have an imoact on common muslims.

But when it comes to writing, suddenly they become an "opinion" and not a decree! Whom are you trying to fool? Collections of fatwas are one of the high texts of the community. They are read by and read out to the muslims in mosques all over India.

Why would anyone take such a trouble to study and follow if its a mere "opinion" and is not binding?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 03, 2005 12:00 AM
3
Saba Naqvi should be congratulated for this article which should be reprinted in publications mostly read by Muslims.

Salma says it all. We need a fatwa against all fatwas.

If the seminaries have any influence they should reeducate the mullas to give just one answer to all those who come to them with questions, "Use your common sense". If the question pertains to family law, the party or parties seeking answers should be advised to consult a lawyer or go to a magistrate.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Dec 03, 2005 12:00 AM
2
Yeah...one more thing can you rename your magazine as islamlook?
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom
Dec 03, 2005 12:00 AM
1
Outlook is simply obsessed with Muslims....it getting absolutely boring.
Dinesh BC
London, United Kingdom