pakistan
Primers Of Hate
History or biology, Pakistani students get anti-India lessons in all their textbooks
These are extracts from government-sponsored textbooks approved by the National Curriculum Wing of the Federal Ministry of Education.
When Mohammad Qasim stepped out to participate in the declamation contest held to celebrate Pakistan's Independence Day, the topic he was to speak on was: 'Why Islam and Pakistan are integral to each other'. Instead, this Class XI student of Lahore's Government Central Model School lashed out against the Hindus, giving vent to inexplicable anger and hatred. This was particularly shocking because the Hindu community, constituting an infinitesimal percentage of Pakistan's population, hasn't been an aspect of Qasim's life.
 
 
How is it that no one asks why jehad and references to Quran should find mention in bio textbooks?
 
 
Asked to explain his outpouring in the contest, the 14-year-old boy said, "We hate Hindus because they are Hindustanis and the number one enemies of both Islam and Pakistan. We know it all through our history and Pakistan Studies books. We learn what happened years ago all the time at school."

Qasim's explanation illustrates vividly the inimical impact of school textbooks, where history is manipulated to foster national chauvinism, where knowledge becomes a vital tool in the construction of national identity, where the sense of nation is promoted through veritable lessons in bigotry, hatred and gross misrepresentation of history. The extracts (see box) culled out from textbooks taught in government schools demonstrates how the ruling establishment, under the aegis of President Pervez Musharraf, is misusing books to develop an anti-India, anti-Hindu mindset—and also fan sentiments against Christians, Jews and the West. The regime's control over the education system is exercised through Lt Gen (retd) Javed Ashraf Qazi, who heads the federal education ministry. Head of the ISI between 1993 and 1995, Qazi supervised the recruitment of students from Pakistan's madrassas for constituting the extremist Taliban militia.

These textbooks came under the scanner following a story in the Los Angeles Times highlighting the tilt against non-Muslims.
 
 
LA Times expressed surprise that such lessons were being taught in schools of a country whose leader was an ally of the US.
 
 
"Thousands of Pakistani children learn from history books each year that Jews are tight-fisted moneylenders and Christians are vengeful conquerors," the newspaper said. It expressed astonishment that such lessons are taught not in madrassas but in government schools of a country whose leader (Musharraf) is an ally of the US in the war against terror. The LA Times report prompted the US administration to voice its grave concern over the textbooks to Islamabad. US State Department spokesman Sean McCormack told a news briefing last August, "The issue is a matter of serious concern for Washington and the Bush administration would like the Pakistani leadership to effectively address it."

Minister Qazi subsequently claimed efforts were afoot to revise and reform the public school curriculum. But the gargantuan nature of the task can be illustrated through the mindset dominant in the Islamabad-based National Curriculum Wing (NCW). Functioning directly under Qazi's ministry, the NCW sets the guidelines for the four provincial textbook boards which publish course material for government schools. The NCW issued a directive in 2002 laying out the following objectives: nurture in children a sense of Islamic identity and pride in being a Pakistani and regard Pakistan as an Islamic country and acquire deep love for it. Ignored was the possibility that a child in school could be non-Muslim and might feel alienated because textbooks equate the Pakistani with Muslim. Although the subject of Islam, or Islamiat, is compulsory only for Muslims, the directive awarded an extra 25 per cent marks to a non-Muslim student should he or she opt for the course.
 
 
The NCW under Qazi ignores that a non-Muslim student could feel alienated.
 
 
The 2002 directive was issued a month after then education minister Zubaida Jalal had directed the NCW to revise history books taught in public schools.

Scientist and educationist Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy feels the ongoing redefinition of education, first initiated under President Zia-ul-Haq, will have profound illiberal implications for Pakistan. "A new concept of education now prevails, the full impact of which will probably be felt when the present generation of schoolchildren attains maturity."

Not only have the Pakistan rulers divorced education from liberal and secular ideals, they also view it as essential for Islamising society and forging a new national identity. Hoodbhoy explains, "Important steps have already been taken in this direction: enforcement of chador in educational institutions; organisation of congregational afternoon prayers during school hours; compulsory teaching of Arabic as a second language from Class VI onwards; introduction of reading the Quran as a matriculation requirement; alteration of the definition of literacy to include religious knowledge; establishment of an Islamic university in Islamabad; introduction of religious knowledge as a criterion for selecting teachers; and the revision of conventional subjects to emphasise Islamic values."

Renowned historian Dr Mubarak Ali says the westernised liberal elite, which had inherited power from the British, had given to education a basically secular and modern character.
 
 
American math for Pak kids: 'If a man has 5 bullets and 2 go into heads of Russians, how many are left?'
 
 
"However, the self-seeking and opportunistic elite in independent Pakistan simply abandoned liberal values because of political and economic exigencies," explains Dr Ali, adding that this trend has impacted adversely on the education system.

The debilitating role of the political class in Islamising the education system can best be illustrated through an example. In March 2004, the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA), the fundamentalist alliance of five religious parties, disrupted the National Assembly proceedings and staged a walkout claiming that a certain reference to jehad as well as other Quranic verses had been excluded from the new edition of a state-prescribed biology textbook. The MMA threatened to launch a protest movement if the Quranic verses were not reinstated. However, then education minister Zubaida Jalal clarified that no chapter or verses relating to jehad (holy war) or shahadat (martyrdom) had been deleted from textbooks, and that the particular verse referring to jehad had only been shifted from the biology textbook for intermediate students (Classes XI and XII, that is) to the matriculation level course (Class X). The education ministry never bothered to inquire—as most people familiar with the discipline of biology logically would—why there were references to jehad in the biology textbook in the first place.

The illiberal nature of Pakistan's education system was brought out in pitiless detail by the Sustainable Development Policy Institute (SDPI), Islamabad, in its report 'The Subtle Subversion: The State of Curricula and Textbooks in Pakistan'. Authored jointly by A.H. Nayyar and Ahmed Salim, the 140-page SDPI report illustrates, through examples, how the education system is contributing to the culture of sectarianism, religious intolerance and violence.

Some of the important findings of the SDPI are: the current curriculum and textbooks are "impregnating young and impressionable minds with seeds of hatred" to serve a self-styled ideological straitjacket; substantial distortion of the nature and significance of actual events in Pakistan's history; insensitivity to the existing religious diversity of the nation; promotion of perspectives that encourage prejudice, bigotry and discrimination towards fellow citizens, especially women and religious minorities and other nations; a glorification of war and the use of force; and incitement to militancy and violence, including encouragement of loaded concepts like jehad and martyrdom.

The SDPI report, however, also exposes America's hypocrisy. Claiming that the concepts of jehad and martyrdom were incorporated into the Pakistani curricula after the start of the so-called Afghan jehad against the Soviet occupation troops, the SDPI report says, "At that point, it suited the US and its most allied of allies, Pakistan, to encourage and glorify the so-called mujahideen, or holy warriors, in the war against the Russians. An American institution of higher education was asked to formulate textbooks for Pakistani schools accordingly. The University of Nebraska at Omaha, which has a center for Afghan Studies, was subsequently tasked by the Central Intelligence Agency in the early eighties to rewrite textbooks for Afghan refugee children. The new textbooks included hate material even in arithmetic books. One question asked, 'If a man has five bullets and two go into the heads of Russian soldiers, how many are left'?"

But the context changed dramatically post-9\11. A research thesis exposed in 2002 the role of Americans in writing pernicious textbooks. The SDPI report states, "Since the Soviets are no more, the mujahideen have not only mutated into Taliban but have also outlived their usefulness, the same American University (the University of Nebraska at Omaha) has been given an additional grant by the Bush administration to re-re-write textbooks, taking out material on jehad, etc."

America's hypocrisy apart, it is in Pakistan's interest to delete from textbooks hate material and ensure today's schoolchildren are groomed into liberal, democratic, secular Pakistanis, harbouring hatred for none and love for all.
These are extracts from government-sponsored textbooks approved by the National Curriculum Wing of the Federal Ministry of Education.
 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Dec 18, 2006 12:00 AM
160
I am glad President Musharaf is trying to undo some of the damage done by his predecessors in prescribing text books for school children which preach nothing but hatred against the Hindus and other relegions. I was posted in our Mission in Karachi early seventies as a senior Indian deplomat, when Pakistan was under Yahya Khan. I admitted my seven- year old son in the Karachi Grammer School, country's premier private school. After a week in school, one day my son asked me to what relegion he belonged. ' Am I a Muslim, Hindu or Christian, he asked. Why do you want to know, I asked him. He said he has a good friend Iqbal in his class. The other boys were curious to see him and one of them said ,if he is from India, he must be a Hindu. Iqbal's reply was that he can't be a Hindu because he is such a nice kid.My son's reply was that he was not sure, but he would ask his parents.
Gong through the English papers from Pakistan omn internet I am mazed at the sea change which has gone through on positive stories on India. This has perhaps influenced the authorities to reconsider the damage they have done to young Pakistani minds through ditortion of history in their text books.
J.n.Bhat.
j.n.bhat
auckland, New Zealand
Oct 15, 2005 12:00 AM
159
oldmac:
"Coming up on nearly a 60 year policy and the best defense of the policy's effectivenss is "I don't know"? "

60 years ?. I was talking about the policy in last 15 years when there was actual militancy. The " i dont know" part comes taking in to the account the possible increase in jehadi strength had kashmir been not in indian admnistration.That is difficult to quantify.

old mac :
"May just? perhaps in another 60 years, no?
"
well may be less than that. The violence has already come down drastically.

old mac :
"Two things display your infantile thinking: 1) You can't seem to get through your thick head that their perception and value judgments regarding their lives and their future may be considerably different than yours 2) Your insecurity doesn't allow for the possiblity that Kashmiris may vote for India in a plebiscite (an insecurity that anyone given a chance will leave India).
"
you talk shit. what you need to get in to your thick head is that demand for plebiscite is dead. The way to know kashmiris voice (including their values and whatever)is through elections conducted by Election commission. ofcourse there is media and others as well.

old mac :
"Overall, however, your three paragraph loquacity doesn't square with your claim of not giving a "damn." "

I dont give a damn to your analysis and conclusions of how india's policy effects its standing in international relations voiced in a pompous and full of yourself tone.
But i didnt say i give a damn about kashmir issue. My post is for all who care to read.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 15, 2005 12:00 AM
158
kiran writes:

>>I dont really give a damn about your judgement on how India is percieved in other countries about its foreign policy.

>>On india's policy in kashmir. If you ask wether India has economically and socially gained by adminstering kashmir the answer is I dont know.However this may come under the principle " man may not live by bread alone".

Coming up on nearly a 60 year policy and the best defense of the policy's effectivenss is "I don't know"? More likely the saying, not principle, saying "pissing into the wind" is more apropos.

>>Putting the aside the cost of India's policy one may question wether this policy may get india what it wants. There was a religious based anti - naiotnalism in punjab in 80's. It was solved effectively using insturments of indian state - the carrot being indian democratic institutions , guarenteed secualrism , extra safegaurds for religious minorities and being a part of a larger economy, the sticks ofcourse being indian army , police, diplomacy and para military forces. similiar polciy is being used in kashmir and it may just bring success.

May just? perhaps in another 60 years, no?

>>The present jehad in kashmir is run by militants belonging to lashkar-e-toiba(LeT) and jaish - e mohammed ( jem) for whom merging kashmir with pakistan is a part of the larger goal of establishing an ummah.so on moral front , i think there are two choices. on one hand is the indian state which cherishes values of democracy , secualrism , human rights and on the other you have people with uncontrolled facial hair whose objectives are shariah and a very fanatical intrepretation of islam which is proving to be an embarrasement even for some muslims.

Two things display your infantile thinking: 1) You can't seem to get through your thick head that their perception and value judgments regarding their lives and their future may be considerably different than yours 2) Your insecurity doesn't allow for the possiblity that Kashmiris may vote for India in a plebiscite (an insecurity that anyone given a chance will leave India).

Overall, however, your three paragraph loquacity doesn't square with your claim of not giving a "damn."
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 15, 2005 12:00 AM
157
old mac :
"Mountbatten’s current “locus standi” is the grave. Your “even if indeed such a promise was made..blah blah blah” deliciously captures one of my themes. People repudiating their obligations at the drop of the hat quickly get a reputation as an unreliable counter-party to contracts. Shimla agreement superseding is an interpretation not a fact. Unfortunately for you, Pakistan has no “locus standi” to bargain on behalf of Kashmiris.
Don’t forget dead soliders, lost treasure, reputation for human rights violations—a first rate policy, indeed.
"

I dont really give a damn about your judgement on how India is percieved in other countries about its foreign policy.

On india's policy in kashmir. If you ask wether India has economically and socially gained by adminstering kashmir the answer is I dont know.However this may come under the principle " man may not live by bread alone".

Putting the aside the cost of India's policy one may question wether this policy may get india what it wants. There was a religious based anti - naiotnalism in punjab in 80's. It was solved effectively using insturments of indian state - the carrot being indian democratic institutions , guarenteed secualrism , extra safegaurds for religious minorities and being a part of a larger economy, the sticks ofcourse being indian army , police, diplomacy and para military forces. similiar polciy is being used in kashmir and it may just bring success.

The present jehad in kashmir is run by militants belonging to lashkar-e-toiba(LeT) and jaish - e mohammed ( jem) for whom merging kashmir with pakistan is a part of the larger goal of establishing an ummah.so on moral front , i think there are two choices. on one hand is the indian state which cherishes values of democracy , secualrism , human rights and on the other you have people with uncontrolled facial hair whose objectives are shariah and a very fanatical intrepretation of islam which is proving to be an embarrasement even for some muslims.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 14, 2005 12:00 AM
156
Kiran writes:

>> You havent adressed the point i have mentioned in my post ..that is that india recieved political suppport among muslims in kasmhir.

Your opinion on the extent India received political support among Muslims in Kashmir is irrelevant. If that support is genuine, the plebiscite will reflect it. But more importantly, this issue is mostly about India and how it governs itself and only incidentally about Kashmir Muslims.

>>That takes away the wind from plebiscite demand.If plebiscite is needed in kasmhir why not in UP or AP or Punjab or bengal ?

Indeed why not? Although, reasonable people can argue those states voluntarily joined India with no stipulations to hold any such plebiscites. There is no right or wrong answer as to the UP, AP etc. question; just the wishes of the interested parties.

>>The way you hang on to this plebisicte demand ,which even pakistan has stopped demanding, is a bit like the way hang on to Naipauls "age of darkness" though the author himself has moved on to a "million mutinies".

Pakistan doesn’t speak for Kashmir. Kashmiris speaks for Kashmir. Is it beyond your imagination that I would think Naipaul was correct in his older books and wrong in his newer book? Am I bound by an author’s new found insanity, senility or just plain changing of his mind?

>>You already seem to have formed an opionion for any indian action (which is to damn it) and then you offer some gibberish as reason.

Only damnable ones.

>> plebiscite demand is now superseded by shimla agreement. So legally plebiscite demand is a dead one. But i found it amusing that nehru gave a promise to mountbatten regarding kashmir. who is mountbaten to seek such a promise ? what is his locus standi ? even if indeed such a promise was made , the only country that can pull up and ask india about the promise is UK but they dont do it. They only sugggest that india and pak resolve kashmir issue through a dialogue based on shimla agreement.so what is ur problem ?

Mountbatten’s current “locus standi” is the grave. Your “even if indeed such a promise was made..blah blah blah” deliciously captures one of my themes. People repudiating their obligations at the drop of the hat quickly get a reputation as an unreliable counter-party to contracts. Shimla agreement superseding is an interpretation not a fact. Unfortunately for you, Pakistan has no “locus standi” to bargain on behalf of Kashmiris.
Don’t forget dead soliders, lost treasure, reputation for human rights violations—a first rate policy, indeed.

>>there is nothing genuine about your arguement. Its basically about your hatred for india.

I hear there is a lot of money in hating India.

>>they are not euphesims but factual information to you on how india officially looks at the issue.but an opiniated person like you may not have much use of it.

How many “official looks” do you take at face value? There is always a market ready to swallow official bullshit. Cheer up, you are part of that market.

>>>>¨However, I heard he loved his mother and was kind to small animals. So what? The world is full of scoundrels.

>>...asshole.

It should have stung, ass-munch.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 14, 2005 12:00 AM
155
oldmac:
But if you want to play a lawyerly game, then Lord Mountbatten required plebiscite to validate the Kings decision; a condition of Independence that Nehru agreed to.
¨
plebiscite demand is now superseded by shimla agreement. So legally plebiscite demand is a dead one.

But i found it amusing that nehru gave a promise to mountbatten regarding kashmir. who is mountbaten to seek such a promise ? what is his locus standi ? even if indeed such a promise was made , the only country that can pull up and ask india about the promise is UK but they dont do it. They only sugggest that india and pak resolve kashmir issue through a dialogue based on shimla agreement.so what is ur problem ?

olmac:
¨It is a useful hypothetical to delineate between genuine arguments¨

there is nothing genuine about your arguement. Its basically about your hatred for india.

oldmac:
¨You are free to use euphemism of your choice to deceive yourself. Just dont expect others to fall for it. ¨

they are not euphesims but factual information to you on how india officially looks at the issue.but an opiniated person like you may not have much use of it.

old mac:
¨However, I heard he loved his mother and was kind to small animals. So what? The world is full of scoundrels.
¨
yeah right. you were a scoundrel when u took Rs5 from your house to buy some sweets when u were a kid without telling your parents..hitle too was a scoundrel for killing 6 million jews...and nizam too was a scoundrel for killing thousands of his own people on the reason that they follow a different religion. they are all scoundrels arent they ? all are just basically the same isnt it?...asshole.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 13, 2005 12:00 AM
154
old mac,
You havent adressed the point i have mentioned in my post ..that is that india recieved political suppport among muslims in kasmhir. That takes away the wind from plebiscite demand.If plebiscite is needed in kasmhir why not in UP or AP or Punjab or bengal ?

The way you hang on to this plebisicte demand ,which even pakistan has stopped demanding, is a bit like the way hang on to Naipauls "age of darkness" though the author himself has moved on to a "million mutinies".

You already seem to have formed an opionion for any indian action (which is to damn it) and then you offer some gibberish as reason.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 13, 2005 12:00 AM
153
Kiran writes:

>> wrong. The kings accession to India gives legal justification for letting kashmir join the indian union. India recieved political support as well from the Kashmiri muslims in the form of sheik abdullahs Nationa conference. There was no "anti India" violence in kashmir till nineties indicating that kashmiris did not really object to joining indian union.

So? If the President of India (head of state) accedes India to the US, is that sufficient legal justification for it to take over the country?

But if you want to play a lawyerly game, then Lord Mountbatten required plebiscite to validate the King’s decision; a condition of Independence that Nehru agreed to.

>> Nizam in hyderabad is a scoundrel.

However, I heard he loved his mother and was kind to small animals. So what? The world is full of scoundrels.

>>>> "Had the Nizam in Hyderabad unilaterally acceded to Pakistan, would India have accepted it? "

>>Thats a hypothetical question. It is wrong to blame India on such premises.

It is a useful hypothetical to delineate between genuine arguments from sham arguments of convenience; such as your legal justification argument. If you had said yes, your credibility would go down the toilet. If you had said no, your intellectual integrity would go down.

>>He has lost support of his civilian population due to his "razakars" who were formed with the purpose of killing local "non - muslims". when sardar patel went to hyderabad to inquire about his intentions the nizam ,frothing at his mouth, said he intents to kill hindus. unlike in kashmir where atleast a section of muslim leadership was willing to give political support to india ..there was not a single political formation which was willing to support nizam..the entire political spectrum from the far left to RSS were up in arms against him.

Yawn. A plebiscite was a more objective form of finding out their political wishes than by your or my interpretation of Kashmir and Hyderabad.

>>In india it is called as "police action". There is no need to dignify a lame duck ruler like nizam with phrases such as "his kingdom".india saw nizam as an internal nuisance and a law and order issue.

You are free to use euphemism of your choice to deceive yourself. Just don’t expect others to fall for it.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 13, 2005 12:00 AM
152
old mac :
"Since India’s claim on Kashmir rests entirely on dubious and unilateral accession by its Hindu king, disregarding the wishes of his Muslim subjects, plain spoken people call it “preservation” of a “land grab.” "

wrong. The kings accession to India gives legal justification for letting kashmir join the indian union. India recieved political support as well from the Kashmiri muslims in the form of sheik abdullahs Nationa conference.

There was no "anti India" violence in kashmir till nineties indicating that kashmiris did not really object to joining indian union.

oldmac:
"Had the Nizam in Hyderabad unilaterally acceded to Pakistan, would India have accepted it? "

Thats a hypothetical question. It is wrong to blame India on such premises.

Nizam in hyderabad is a scoundrel . He has lost support of his civilian population due to his "razakars" who were formed with the purpose of killing local "non - muslims". when sardar patel went to hyderabad to inquire about his intentions the nizam ,frothing at his mouth, said he intents to kill hindus.
unlike in kashmir where atleast a section of muslim leadership was willing to give political support to india ..there was not a single political formation which was willing to support nizam..the entire political spectrum from the far left to RSS were up in arms against him.

old mac :
"Instead, India invaded his kingdom with several divisions of it's Southern Command"

In india it is called as "police action". There is no need to dignify a lame duck ruler like nizam with phrases such as "his kingdom".india saw nizam as an internal nuisance and a law and order issue.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 12, 2005 12:00 AM
151
Varun Shekhar writes:

>>India is essentially an inward looking, though dynamic, country that would be very happy to be just left alone to develop in its own way, at its own pace.

It’s RK Narayan’s thinking. It works in fictitious Malgudis; but doesn’t work for subcontinents since the Malaysias of this world are ready to eat India’s lunch. I don’t understand this insular attitude; individual yogis can go off into a forest leaving the world behind; but countries can’t do that. I think this is what Naipaul means by how India always retreats. Is it fear of defeat or fear of inadequacy?

>>Preserving Kashmir within the Indian union is hardly an example of realpolitik. What would be realpolitik is India destabilising a government such as Peru or Tanzania, simply because it feels the government is too socialist/capitalist/mixed. It then proceeds to install a dictator who is more to its liking. The whole action is then justified in the name of freedom and democracy! The US and UK have done this malfeasance many times, all over the globe.

Since India’s claim on Kashmir rests entirely on dubious and unilateral accession by its Hindu king, disregarding the wishes of his Muslim subjects, plain spoken people call it “preservation” of a “land grab.” Had the Nizam in Hyderabad unilaterally acceded to Pakistan, would India have accepted it? That is without censorious bloviations on disregarding the wishes of the majority Hindu people in his kingdom. Instead, India invaded his kingdom with several divisions of it's Southern Command. Not much of a confusion whether that was a “humanitarian mission” or realpolitik.

>>Yes, too many people look at Kashmir as if it were unrelated to other important concerns in the subcontinent- such as secularism, democracy, pluralism, the ethnic cleansing of Hindus from Pakistan, the very nature of Pakistan( miltaristic/oligarchic) at the highest level. A more holistic approach is what's needed.

Why? Other than the transparent reason of not wanting to solve Kashmir issue.

>>From your other question, yes it is the CPIM in Kashmir. Thousands of political workers and activists of all non-militant, non-separatist organizations in Kashmir have been slaughtered. And not *one* word of this in the international media! Even the Indian media has done a poor job in detailing the killing of political workers from all parties in Kashmir.

International media is not allowed in Kashmir since India is so shy about publicizing its humanitarian impulses. The Int’l media supplicates less than domestic media and won’t publish comical press releases as facts. Printing unverified and incomplete tidbits of information from the police blotter is the forte of the Domestic media.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 11, 2005 12:00 AM
150
Good one, Bleeding Logic. Yes, too many people look at Kashmir as if it were unrelated to other important concerns in the subcontinent- such as secularism, democracy, pluralism, the ethnic cleansing of Hindus from Pakistan, the very nature of Pakistan( miltaristic/oligarchic) at the highest level. A more holistic approach is what's needed. From your other question, yes it is the CPIM in Kashmir. Thousands of political workers and activists of all non-militant, non-separatist organizations in Kashmir have been slaughtered. And not *one* word of this in the international media! Even the Indian media has done a poor job in detailing the killing of political workers from all parties in Kashmir.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 11, 2005 12:00 AM
149

India is essentially an inward looking, though dynamic, country that would be very happy to be just left alone to develop in its own way, at its own pace. Preserving Kashmir within the Indian union is hardly an example of realpolitik. What would be realpolitik is India destabilising a government such as Peru or Tanzania, simply because it feels the government is too socialist/capitalist/mixed. It then proceeds to install a dictator who is more to its liking. The whole action is then justified in the name of freedom and democracy! The US and UK have done this malfeasance many times, all over the globe.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 11, 2005 12:00 AM
148
Srinivas writes:

>>And at the end of the day, it boils down to the "roti" only. Why dont the evangelists target people like you and me - who live and work in the comfort of air-conditioned homes and offices, travel in air-conditioned comfort, subscribe to retirement plans at the age of 30? Because they know, we would not bite their bait.

Never took you for a Marxist!!! Economics as an all-encompassing explanation of all human actions wasn’t convincing the first time around; its not going to now.

>>Mac: By private matter I meant that just as the govt does not have a say in my private matter, neither does my neighbour. Like you said, if the drink vendor tries to sell me a drink, my co-travellers should not have an issue whether I decide to buy the drink or refuse to buy the drink.

However, the argument that a vendor infringes your rights by attempting to sell drinks to you, which requires public intervention, is beyond farcical comedy; a simple response of no thanks is an adequate defense.

>>Religion being dear is relative. For me, my family is more dear than my religion. So if the push comes to a shove, then I would forsake my religion for my family. But then, that's me.

You just admitted that there are more important things than your religion. Similarly, there are others who may value it less than other things, amongst which could be other religions or philosophies. Thus interfering with such value judgments violates their rights in the Indian Constitution and limits their legitimate autonomy.

>>Maybe you can enlighten me on what other things would motivate a person to change his religion due to inducements other than social and economic conditions.

It could range from boredom or greed all the way up to fresh interpretation of reality.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 11, 2005 12:00 AM
147
Kiran writes:

>>The UN as US administration often points out is imbecile and has no role now in kashmir. It is amusing to see old mac the champion of ¨real politik¨ when it suits american interests now ranting about promises and morals in international relations.

I have no problem if India practices realpolitik; just lose the smug self-righteousness while doing it; and no whining, pissing or moaning about it after losing to stronger, more dynamic and more capable practioners of that art.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 11, 2005 12:00 AM
146
Vikas Rajan said:

>> Incidentally old mac , since you confess to reading the NYT did you come across the news about the BBC documentary which claims that Dubya the Great told his cronies that he invaded Afghanistan because God told him to fight terrorists in Afghanistan and that he invaded Iraq because G

Yes, I did. Assuming the report is true, I share an Associated Press dispatch writer’s opinion: If God tells you to do something, you better listen. If someone says that God told them to do something, you better double-check (with God).
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 11, 2005 12:00 AM
145
S. Vinay writes:

>> This is just a general comment on rants and raves, but it seems to me that lots of morons with a poor command of language post here. Padmavati Sonkar (aka Old Mac), Bleeding Indian (aka SC) etc.. Get a life folks!

“LOT of morons”….not “LOTS of morons”…as long as we are talking poor command of language….
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 11, 2005 12:00 AM
144
Sonkar writes:

>> We have to take back entire pakistan and push the muslim barbarians into islamic countries. We should never compromise on Sindh province and it should come to india.

How about picking up the garbage so that the country has clean streets, first? Then after tackling smaller problems like jobs, healthcare, discrimination etc, we can indulge in your crazy bitch of the year musings.

>> America can invade Iraq why not india take back Sindh ?

Okay, but no pissing and moaning when the Chinese come down the mountains again. Why should they? Simple because they can.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 11, 2005 12:00 AM
143
Minu_Chaterjee writes:

>>>> OK. Tell us Old Mac what is the solution to kashmir?

Hold the plebiscite. As long as it is a distant mirange, the Kashmiris will romanticize notions of independence or merging with Pakistan. Make the choice real, they will quickly sober up. Their decision will determine the future of their lives. If they choose to stay with India, as I hope and think they will do, then they will be part of a rickety and exasperating democracy that is trying to grope its way. If they choose to be independent, they will become economically unviable, militarily insignificant with a subservient foreign policy dictated by larger neighbors. If they choose Pakistan, good luck to them; we shake their hands and say don’t call us if you regret your decision. Any of these three is better than the current stalemate: in terms of lives, money and most importantly attention to an issue so removed and with so little impact on the every day lives of a billion people.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 10, 2005 12:00 AM
142
Bleeding_Indian: My understanding of "Right to Religion" is that the constitution guarantees a citizen the right to practice his religion freely as long the practice of which does not infringe upon other persons rights. I am not sure if this includes the "freedom to protect religion" that you have mentioned.

And at the end of the day, it boils down to the "roti" only. Why dont the evangelists target people like you and me - who live and work in the comfort of air-conditioned homes and offices, travel in air-conditioned comfort, subscribe to retirement plans at the age of 30? Because they know, we would not bite their bait.

They would rather target improverished tribals, who live in abject conditions - or they target people who are not satisfied with the social conditions that they are living in.

If the government and the social organisations want to prevent the "sowing of hatred" and "misguiding of people" then they should address the core issues. Again, I say, conversions are only the symptoms and not the disease.

Mac: By private matter I meant that just as the govt does not have a say in my private matter, neither does my neighbour. Like you said, if the drink vendor tries to sell me a drink, my co-travellers should not have an issue whether I decide to buy the drink or refuse to buy the drink.

Religion being dear is relative. For me, my family is more dear than my religion. So if the push comes to a shove, then I would forsake my religion for my family. But then, that's me.

Maybe you can enlighten me on what other things would motivate a person to change his religion due to inducements other than social and economic conditions.
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Oct 10, 2005 12:00 AM
141
old mac :
¨So, were we lying about the plebiscite then or now? Notice to the world: Remember its ok for you to lie to India.
¨
yeah right , now the world is going to sit up and take notice as old mac points how evil India is.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 10, 2005 12:00 AM
140
Regarding Kashmir..India did not occupy Kashmir on its own the KIng of Kashmir came running to India. The air lifting of Indian troops to kashmir did not start until the king signed the letter of accsession to Indian union.

India offered a plebiscite not when it was in a losers position but when it was in a winners position. So it was a moral offer not a devious one to grab land. However the plebiscite thing is now dead as dodo and is superseded by shimla agreement which states that all issues between india and pakistan will be dealt bilaterally.

The UN as US administration often points out is imbecile and has no role now in kashmir. It is amusing to see old mac the champion of ¨real politik¨ when it suits american interests now ranting about promises and morals in international relations.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 10, 2005 12:00 AM
139
old mac :
¨Fear of ideas and fear of individual choice is the more general problem. It manifests itself in many different areas; religion happens to one. Its a useful vehicle for me to raise broader themes; people are passionate about it and the topic is guaranteed to elicit a response.¨

No , you got it totally wrong. There is absolutely no control on freedom of expression in India. In hyderabad would you like to listen to how religion is all crap and dangerous ? you can attend the meetings of ¨jana vigyan vedika¨..you like to listen to evangelical rantings ? there are a number of pentacoastal churches ..would you like to listen about the evil that is USA ? attend the nearby CPI(M) office ..you would like to listen to the evil that is CPI(M)? attend the RSS shaka ...and so on.
regarding the evangelicals , i have seen their speaches which are nothing but how anyone following a religion other than theirs is sent to hot and hotter hells. They too ofcourse have freedom of expression which they fully utilize by organizing these huge rallies..however it is not a pretty sight to watch them talk . And it is easy to understand why others get provoked by their talk.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 10, 2005 12:00 AM
138
Varun Shekhar writes:

>> India doesn't view Kashmir as apart from itself, anymore than it sees Mumbai, Delhi and Kolkata as distinct from itself.

So, were we lying about the plebiscite then or now? Notice to the world: Remember its ok for you to lie to India.

>>Kashmir has a long historical association with the rest of the Indian subcontinent that goes back at least 2000 years, through trade, literature, travel, scolarship, pilgrimmage etc. Kashmir is not a distant, exotic colony that India has "invaded". But leaving that aside, India is not going to bow to a movement based on religious hatred and ethno-chauvinism.

Blatant broken promises usually need blustery self-righteous rhetoric as self-deception.

>>Neither will a people's progressive movement for greater democracy, secularism, openness and tolerance defeat India. Rather, such a process will draw India into its vortex. Either way, India can't and won't lose on Kashmir. And that is the beauty of it.

In the meantime, thousands of troops, millions of rupees and untold human right violations will continue?
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 10, 2005 12:00 AM
137
Indians don't require Nixon and Kissinger's approval to call Kashmir their own. If things were up to Nixon and Kissinger, India would be under a General Pinochet, Mobutu or Papa Doc Duvalier.Hey, one side calls it military rule, the other calls it bringing stability to a country, right? If Kashmiri militants are, apart from slaughtering Kashmiri Hindus, Sikhs and Indian security forces, killing thousands of National Conference, PDP, Congress, BJP, CPI , Awami League workers, as well as Gujar( shepherd) Moslems, it is legitimate to call it a terror movement, plebicite pending or not pending. At the very least, Kashmir is nominally an Indian state with a democratically elected government, so India has every right to be concerned about the *nature* of the movement going on there.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 10, 2005 12:00 AM
136

India doesn't view Kashmir as apart from itself, anymore than it sees Mumbai, Delhi and Kolkata as distinct from itself. Kashmir has a long historical association with the rest of the Indian subcontinent that goes back at least 2000 years, through trade, literature, travel, scolarship, pilgrimmage etc. Kashmir is not a distant, exotic colony that India has "invaded". But leaving that aside, India is not going to bow to a movement based on religious hatred and ethno-chauvinism. Neither will a people's progressive movement for greater democracy, secularism, openness and tolerance defeat India. Rather, such a process will draw India into its vortex. Either way, India can't and won't lose on Kashmir. And that is the beauty of it.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 10, 2005 12:00 AM
135
Repost-corrected

Minu_Chaterjee writes:

>>The method applied by you is quite old. I don't care who that lady/lad is. But all other points are rightly understood by you.

You must have soiled your pants when I outted your insane self so quickly in your new avatar (Bleeding_Indian). I busted you; you skanky little lying twit. Remember, the last time your repeated cut & paste mania got your ass bounced off this forum. You are doing it again.

Your presence on the board is inconvenient and annoying only to the extent of scrolling past your cut & paste spam.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 10, 2005 12:00 AM
134
Kiran writes:

>>As an illustration elections in India, if one were to include all the state elections,panchayat elections etc, have happened at a frequency of at about one election in 21 days. Most of these election are free and fair in which the incumbents were often thrown out and many of them has voting percentage exceeding 60%.To have such a scale of participation , an institutional framework which makes it possible and the discipline among both the political parties and people to accept a result which they do not favour is indeed admirable.

It takes more than elections to make a liberal democracy; they are necessary but not sufficient. It also needs the Rule of law with clear definition of individual rights with efficient, consistent and impartial enforcement. That is clearly missing. In its place, there is crushing bureacracy, mindless formalisms and an open palm at every turn just to do his duty.

>>By refusing to acknowledge the acheivement in establishing a democracy in which 35% of the population is illiterate and the 300 million live by earning less than a dollar a day ..you show a deplorable meanness.

Looking for praise and affirmation when so much work is undone and too many wretched souls is more mean. Naipaul wrote a book entitled "A Million Mutinies." There wouldn't be a million mutinies without a billion injustices.

>>yeah right! now please tell us all about the ban of teaching communism in India. Actually i do condemn the govt interference through Ã,nti-conversion¨ laws however to use this criteria of unneccessary govt. intervention as an important framework to damn an entire billion people and diss the entire spectrum of democracy in India is plain meanness.

Fear of ideas and fear of individual choice is the more general problem. It manifests itself in many different areas; religion happens to one. Its a useful vehicle for me to raise broader themes; people are passionate about it and the topic is guaranteed to elicit a response.

Calling it "unnecessary government intervention" puts this issue on the same level as an imprudent regulation; such as requiring Rs. 2 lakhs worth of safety equipment on every car.

The issue is emblematic of very deep problems of self-government in India.

1) The line between areas which government can coerce and areas beyond government regulation.
2) How is this line policed?
3) That various institutions lack legitimacy and credibility
4) That these institutions are compromised
5) That these institutions are ineffective
6) That the nation lacks the attitudes and passion for self-rule

I could go on and on. But you catch my drift.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 10, 2005 12:00 AM
133
old mac :
¨Ink on paper is not self-enforcing. A culture must take those ideas seriously before it enforces them. Indian culture doesnt. To the extent it functions, it does on a mechanical and mindless formalism.
¨
Neither did the ink write the constitution automatically..it was written by Indians.I agree with you there are certain aspects of Indian society which seem to be contradictory to the spirit of Indian constitution as expressed in the preamble.
However i disagree on the both extent and the intensity of this contradiction. As an illustration elections in India, if one were to include all the state elections,panchayat elections etc, have happened at a frequency of at about one election in 21 days. Most of these election are free and fair in which the incumbents were often thrown out and many of them has voting percentage exceeding 60%.To have such a scale of participation , an institutional framework which makes it possible and the discipline among both the political parties and people to accept a result which they do not favour is indeed admirable.

By refusing to acknowledge the acheivement in establishing a democracy in which 35% of the population is illiterate and the 300 million live by earning less than a dollar a day ..you show a deplorable meanness.

old mac :
¨The governments interest stops after it ensures there is no violence or threat of violence to anyones lives or limbs in conversions or prevention of conversions. Whether people convert for eternal life or a handful of magic beans thats their business; the government has no legitimate interest or authority to regulate such private matters.

¨
yeah right! now please tell us all about the ban of teaching communism in India.
Actually i do condemn the govt interference through Ã,nti-conversion¨ laws however to use this criteria of unneccessary govt. intervention as an important framework to damn an entire billion people and diss the entire spectrum of democracy in India is plain meanness.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 09, 2005 12:00 AM
132
Srinivas writes:

>>I agree with Mac (dont be surprised by that mate) when he says that religion is a private matter. Neither the Government nor anyone else has the right to interfere in this individual matter. Even if it was some evangelist plot to "harvest my soul".

Naturally, you have an incorrect understanding of what is meant by a private matter. It only applies to Government and doesn’t apply to private individuals. Private matters are between individuals without any government role. When you are traveling and a drink vendor approaches you to buy his drinks, it is a private matter. You are free to purchase or say no. When a political party worker approaches you with his literature to join his party or vote for his candidate, it’s a private matter. You are free to accept or say no. Similarly, if a religious person approaches you to join his religion, it is a private matter. You are free to accept or say no.

On the other hand, if the government is involved, then it is a public matter. If a policeman’s permission or a district magistrate’s permission is required to buy a drink, join a political party or change one’s religions, then the public, through one of its representative, is intruding into private matters.

>>If a person converts for the sake of spirituality, then good for him. If a person converts for the sake of a few magic beans, then that person is resorting to self-deceit, which again is a private matter. As long as the person abides to the law of the land, why should anyone care which religion he belongs to?

When the “law of the land” interferes with explicitly written rights of “fundamental law of the land” is where the problem is.

>>Of course, we have to bear in mind one thing. Religion is very dear to most of us. So if a person is forsaking his religion for the sake of another, it only highlights the desperation and utter helplessness of person to redeem his living conditions, that he has to "sacrifice" something that is dear to him for another.

May be such a religion wasn’t all that “dear” in the first place. But your instinct is a good first step towards necessary introspection.

>>The evangelists and the conversions are only symptoms. The disease is the dreadful conditions that forced the person to change.

If you are only thinking of dreadful social and economic conditions, then you have a limited understanding, a bit like Marxists, of what makes people tick.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 09, 2005 12:00 AM
131
OUTLOOK's EXECUTIVE EDITOR suggested a few months ago that since dialoguing with the spammer Minoo Chatterjee (now calling herself Bleeding_Indian) only makes her increasingly more irrelevant, incoherent, repetative and provocative, it is best not to respond to her posts. I intend to follow the advice of the EXECUTIVE EDITOR.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 09, 2005 12:00 AM
130
Minu_Chaterjee writes:

>>The method applied by you is quite old. I don't care who that lady/lad is. But all other points are rightly understood by you.

You must have been soiled your pants that I could your insane self so quickly in your new avatar (Bleeding_Nonsense). I busted you skanky little lying twit. Remember, the last time your repeated cut&paste mania got your ass bounced off this forum. You are doing it again.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 09, 2005 12:00 AM
129
I applaud Mr Srininivas's contribution. A community should do everything possible to redress those wrongs which prompt conversions, but it should do so without converting those disaffected folks into communalists.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 09, 2005 12:00 AM
128
I agree with Mac (dont be surprised by that mate) when he says that religion is a private matter.

Neither the Government nor anyone else has the right to interfere in this individual matter. Even if it was some evangelist plot to "harvest my soul".

If a person converts for the sake of spirituality, then good for him.

If a person converts for the sake of a few magic beans, then that person is resorting to self-deceit, which again is a private matter.

As long as the person abides to the law of the land, why should anyone care which religion he belongs to?

Of course, we have to bear in mind one thing. Religion is very dear to most of us. So if a person is forsaking his religion for the sake of another, it only highlights the desperation and utter helplessness of person to redeem his living conditions, that he has to "sacrifice" something that is dear to him for another.

The evangelists and the conversions are only symptoms. The disease is the dreadful conditions that forced the person to change.

There is a saying in Hindi - I dont remember exactly -

"Chaand ko dekh kar Shayar ko Shaayiri yaad aati hai,

Usi Chaand ko dekh kar Bhookhe ko roti ki yaad aati hai"
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Oct 09, 2005 12:00 AM
127
Varun Shekar writes:

>>Invasion, violence and conquest are reprehensible no matter who does it, and certianly if Moslems do it. All this mumbo-jumbo about Moslems needing territorial conquest for self-affirmation is disgusting. It's just a prettification of terror and slaughter inflicted on often hapless peoples. The fact that they believe in monotheism doesn't make them better.

Your blind spot is India’s invasion, violence and conquest of Kashmir. But your post lays bare a deep anti-intellectualism and lack of curiosity in trying to understand what makes Muslims tick without caricaturing them. Nobody is “prettifying” or “uglyfying” anything. There isn’t even a whiff of approval in my analysis. Perhaps, it lacks the Chaddi customary spitting on the ground after every mentioning of the word Muslim. Instead, my post analyzes a possible explanation, which at the risk of being immodest, looks like a Raphael next to your finger-paintings.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 09, 2005 12:00 AM
126
Ghulam writes:

>>Varun, I agree that there should have been more outcry against the terroristic killings in Kashmir. There are not many outstanding spokesmen of the community in public eye who can speak with authority. Milli Gazette, which is a national Muslim newspaper, has had articles condemning terrorism against India. It was also very outspoken against the atrocities of Taliban rule in Afghanistan. Its editor, Dr Khan, has a website (unfortunately I do not have the URL here) devoted to condemnation of terrorism. However there should be more Muslim voices both in Congress and in BJP who can command attention and who unequivocally denounce terrorism.

I won’t be bamboozled into playing the condemnation game in Kashmir; neither will any thinking persons. When people condemn Kashmir violence, one side interprets it solely to condemn any one who opposes Indian “claim on Kashmir” and the other side interprets it solely to condemn “Indian Security Forces.” If people want to play word games, they should play scrabble. The “Imperialist” lobby includes in its condemnations, legitimate political dissent including challenging the legitimacy of Indian Rule in Kashmir pending a promised plebiscite first. If people still want to play this game, the 1857 Mutiny involved “terroristic killings” too requiring “condemnation.” Yet, the “Imperialist” lobby will call it a dawn of a glorious liberation struggle; perhaps it was. But, all this lends credence to Nixon and Kissinger’s assessment that Indians are sanctimonious in politics to the point of low comedy.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 09, 2005 12:00 AM
125
Naheed writes:

>>U said that ".......In its place, it emphasized terrestrial success. But there in lies Islam’s greatest vulnerability. This theology requires them to be masters of at least the areas they control. .............."

>>Speak with proof. If u say something related to Islam then u should quote the text from authentic Islamic sources to support yr claim.

You are only talking about textual proof. Interpretations, Attitudes, practice, literature and culture are where deeply held beliefs manifest.

>>Also, There is a difference between Islam & Muslims.

Yes, in theory. But Islam is what Muslims make it to be. It may not reflect the original intent but what Muslims do collectively determines Islam.

>>What u have written above does not hold true for Islam.

Are you agreeing that it might hold for Muslims, using your distinction?
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 09, 2005 12:00 AM
124
Kiran writes:

>>What crap are you talking about ? Individual rights and equal rights to woman are already guarenteed in Indian constitution.

Ink on paper is not self-enforcing. A culture must take those ideas seriously before it enforces them. Indian culture doesn’t. To the extent it functions, it does on a mechanical and mindless formalism.

>>You seriously need to differentiate between indian state and certain aspects of indian soceity if you want to be taken as something more than a bigot.

I do differentiate it. However, culture has the force of a tsunami in governing behavior of people and institutions while the Indian State is a mere sapling and Indian law a floating leaf in its force.

>>I may add here that even the "draconisan" anit conversion law introduced and scrapped in TN does not come close to violating the constiutionally guarentted right to practise and propogate ones religion.

In which case, you haven’t the slightest clue as to how a government violates a constitutionally guarantee right.

>>The law requires that any person changing his religion may make a statement saying that he has not done it under financial distress or under any other material inducements. Now why should that concern evangelical if indeed they do not believe in such converions?

The government’s interest stops after it ensures there is no violence or threat of violence to anyone’s lives or limbs in conversions or prevention of conversions. Whether people convert for eternal life or a handful of magic beans that’s their business; the government has no legitimate interest or authority to regulate such private matters.

>>However i still think that those laws should be scrapped.

Your instinct is laudable but a Republic doesn’t function on anyone’s whim.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 09, 2005 12:00 AM
123
Bleeding_Nonsense (formerly/known/as – f/k/a Minu_Chatterjee) writes:

>> Mr Old mac opines>>Welcome back Minu Chatterjee. Its the "thoroughly exposed" part that gave it away.

>>I am not sure who this lady is. Seems, she must have tormented you folks pretty well. Throwing mud doesn't rescue you from your fanaticism. Concentrate on the topic.

This is such a delicious diversion from dreadful and dreary conversation partners on this board. Minu, you are such a dumb twit for lying and compromising your integrity over something as insignificant and irrelevant as your prior handle. Let’s review the evidence:

1) Bleeding_Indian / Minu_Chatterjee; same underline between words
2) Psychotic ramblings
3) Repeated cut&paste posts
4) Knowing Minu was a “She” without anyone mentioning the sex
5) Conspiracy nut involving Missionaries, Marxists and Mullahs
6) Repeating phrase “thoroughly exposed”
7) Repeating phrase “old tricks”
8) Quoting Richard Eaton
9) Obsessing about NGO funding
10) Manic/Depressive personality as exemplified by, “That day is NOT far, when religious Conversion will BE BANNED totally. Its creation of missionaries, and who live on their funds themselves.”
11) Multiple Personality Disorder: “Mr. Old Mac: We all are watching.”
12) Here’s a prediction: She will quote Ashish Nandy

All taken together, welcome back Minu. Adding lying to your psychotic personality won’t improve your marriagability.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 08, 2005 12:00 AM
122
Mr Adi, I thought you had called yourself an atheist in several previous posts. If you did not, I apologize.

As you know, Rev Pat Robertson recently took out a fatwa against the President of Venezuela. Very few people take him seriously.

A rational logical approach should characterize whatever is taught in schools. In matters of faith, rationality takes a back seat. A student may want to question some aspects of his faith. He may bring it up with his parents, his clergy, his teacher or anyone he trusts, but this cannot be a part of the curriculum. Aspects of one's faith which can be a focus of secular scrutiny are those beliefs or actions that are legitimately not acceptable to the society at large, e.g. parents refusing medical treatment desperately needed by a sick child, or young men being sent on suicide-bombing missions, or a group being subjected to injustice because of their caste. Freedoms guaranteed to religions should be subject to the stricture that harmonious co-existence of communities is of paramount interst to the state.

I do not share your view that the school system should be used to attenuate religions. Let us just say we agree to disagree.



Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 08, 2005 12:00 AM
121
Mr.Faruki: "You do not see a rabi criticizing Christianity, or a priest attacking Buddhism" - would you like to know Mr.Robertson's views on Hinduism?
I am not talking about promoting "Atheism". When you label me an "Atheist", you can easily slot me into another belief system like Christian Evangelism. No Sir, it is not that easy. I refuse to call myself an "Atheist". I trust human ability to understand through science and am a skeptic. You are trying to twist my words as usual - I am suggesting a rational approach that can be verified through reason and a system that is open to questioning and change; against dogmatic belief in some unchangeable "scripture".
When it is obvious that "God" did not "create" earth in 6 days, I have enough respect for my intelligence to refuse to believe such drivel.
"My own feeling is that one's religion (as well as one's atheism) is a private matter" - well, as we all found out on 9/11, some people don't think so and it affects every one of us. In my opinion, these people are emboldened by people's failing to question their nonsensical beliefs.
", astronomy and other sciences should be taught without any restriction in schools. If they erode religion in any way, so be it. " - Here, I agree.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
120
Mr Adi, as you know, religion cannot be taught in American schools. "Inherit the Wind" is the dramatization of an actual court case. While it pits Darwinism against Genesis, neither Darrow nor Bryant question the basic tenets of Christianity, and in the end neither side has a clear victory. Even in American society at large, you do not see any confrontations between religions. You do not see a rabi criticizing Christianity, or a priest attacking Buddhism. (some loonies such as Rev Pat Robertson and Rev Franklin Graham tried to defame Islam, probably because it is opportune to do so since 9/11.) Atheists have full freedom to express themselves, but they do not have a big bully pulpit. Just as atheists like yourself would like to use schools to promote religious skepticism, Christian evangelists would like to introduce school prayers. I do not think either side will win. Anti-religious propaganda was practised in the Soviet Union for over half a century, yet Russia today is one of the most religious countries in Europe. My own feeling is that one's religion (as well as one's atheism) is a private matter, and should not be a large part of one's identity. Evolution, astronomy and other sciences should be taught without any restriction in schools. If they erode religion in any way, so be it.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
119
Varun, I agree that there should have been more outcry against the terroristic killings in Kashmir. There are not many outstanding spokesmen of the community in public eye who can speak with authority. Milli Gazette, which is a national Muslim newspaper, has had articles condemning terrorism against India. It was also very outspoken against the atrocities of Taliban rule in Afghanistan. Its editor, Dr Khan, has a website (unfortunately I do not have the URL here) devoted to condemnation of terrorism. However there should be more Muslim voices both in Congress and in BJP who can command attention and who unequivocally denounce terrorism.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
118
Mr.Naheed, the two faced moron: "Whosoever wants to leave Islam is free to do so as Islam is totally against compulsion in religion."
Is that right, you two-bit liar? What do you take us for? a bunch of 5 year olds? Apostasy is punishable by death according to the Sharia.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
117
Mr.Faruki says: "Adi says, "Criticism of any belief system is a must for a rational society"
But surely not in a high school. "
Ghulam, unfortunately that is the battleground of ideologies today - High School. I was pretty impressed that they have "Inherit the Wind" taught in schools in 9th grade here. A true "believer" rejects anything that contradicts his "book". Unfortunately his "book" is directly in the path of Science and progress. The sooner children are taught to make choices, the better. The sooner religion is de-legitimized, the better. Religious fanatics see the religion-neutrality of school systems and start demanding special treatment to their respective religions. This can only be countered if the children understand the proper place of religious dogma - in the dustbin.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
116
Ghulam, good post about knowing Moslems personally as opposed to in the abstract. And it holds for any social equation anywhere, involving any two or more groups. But here's a question: Why are Moslems worldwide relatively quick to condemn terror directed against the US and the UK( i.e the recent subway bombings) but totally resistant to condemning terror against India. One example: Kashmir. Do you know that more than 2000 workers and activists of the National Conference(Farooq Abdulla's organization) have been slaughtered by terrorists in the last 15 years, including yet another one just yesterday? The party practically lives under a cloud of extreme terror. And not *one* word of denunciation from Moslems anywhere. These are all Moslem victims by the way, and native Kashmiris, not illegal settlers on some East, West or North bank. Of course, the terror directed against Kashmiri Hindus and the Indian security forces is another subject, and needless to say, Moslems haven't condemned that either.The compelling conclusion is that Moslems are afraid of the wrath of the US and UK, but feel that India can't really inflict serious punishment on them.Not exactly the most principled stand, is it? Can all this violence be excused in the name of 'self-determination'?
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
115
Has the PM has some spine left in him to call a press conference and state his views on what happened and answer some questions?If he does not do even that, then there is no difference between him and the likes of Buta Singh and co.And please do not call him a man of integrity from now on.It is an insult to all those who are truly men of integrity.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
114
Where are those ardent supporters of Spineless Singh?The SC has declared the Bihar fiasco unconstitutional and it was done at the behest and approval of Spineless Singh.Where are those people who sang praises about his honesty, integrity and a lot of things which he does not have?Is he still a gentleman or a political animal of the first order?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
113
Kiran..
>>>so where does that leave saudi arabia and pakistan ? anti - islamic countries ? By the same token india and usa may be more islamic in practise as they dont prescribe punishements for changing ones religion.
True, Indeed. In my understanding, India and the USA are closer to Islam than Saudi Arabia or Pakistan.
Tabrez J Siddiqui
Goettingen, Germany
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
112
"This is the point i wanted to make. U need not be indoctrinated in pakistani schools & madrassas to hate other countries"

And your point is flawed - there's a difference between facts and indoctrination...
- you do not need to be indoctrinated to know that 44% of Pakistanis support suicide bombings in some form
- you do not need to be indoctrinated to know, that all most the entire minority population of Pakistan has vanished from Pakistan
- you do not need to be indoctrinated to know, that Pakistan has been pertrating terrorism against Indians since the 1950s
- you do not need to be indoctrinated to know that Pakistanis support hudood ordinances, that make rape essentially legal

In fact, you're probably indoctrinated, if you ignore the above or try to pass it off as hatred.

Ignoring facts, due to political correctness, is the real indoctrination, not the other way around.

When significant numbers of average Pakistanis fund and support the killing of Indians in thousands every year - being wary of them is the natural and the correct "Indian" reaction.

When France decides to keep a watch on the entire Pakistani community (and not the Turkish, Indonesian, Chinese or Indian communities) - it probably was not due to hatred - they probably were doing it, b'cos they had evidence about Pakistanis in general, that made them nervous.

Ignoring such data is indoctrination.
Arindam Banerji
Sunnyvale, USA
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
111
naheed:
"Whosoever wants to leave Islam is free to do so as Islam is totally against compulsion in religion"

so where does that leave saudi arabia and pakistan ? anti - islamic countries ? By the same token india and usa may be more islamic in practise as they dont prescribe punishements for changing ones religion.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
110
oldmac:
"What if the concept of equality runs against some religions? Where does respect end and legitimate criticism begin? You will have orthodox members of atleast 2 religions that will be up in arms saying equal status of women is non-sense imported from the Evil West"\

What crap are you talking about ? Individual rights and equal rights to woman are already guarenteed in Indian constitution. You seriously need to differentiate between indian state and certain aspects of indian soceity if you want to be taken as something more than a bigot.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
109
Adi says, "Criticism of any belief system is a must for a rational society"

But surely not in a high school.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
108
Mr.Faruki,
I disagree with you: "Mr Adi, criticism of Hinduism in any texts should be as taboo as critcism of any other religion"
Criticism of any belief system is a must for a rational society - it should NOT be a taboo. Children should be taught to question "belief" and religious fanatics and "pious" fools should not be allowed to push their irrational beliefs on those of us who don't believe in nonsense. Treating religious belief as something that should not be questioned provides shelter to irrational religious beliefs and fundamentalists of all sorts. How else do you explain the religious right here that has become so emboldened that they have declared war on science, next it could be the "unbelievers". I personally don't believe in God/Gods and don't care much for people who expect me to respect their belief.
I however have to confess that I do sometimes appreciate your decent replies.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
107
Bleeding_Indian writes:

>>Its a known old trick, however throughly exposed now.

Welcome back Minu Chatterjee. Its the "thoroughly exposed" part that gave it away.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
106
Vikas writes:

>>One can give examples of every religion being against the concept of equality.

What does that have to do with teaching it in way not to offend the thin-skins?

>>Religions have equally used color and caste to keep certain sections of socities deprived of basic human dignity. It is another matter that religions that used color to achieve those means somehow consider themselves absolved of all sins and ready to point finger at everyone else.

Not all of them. Some have made it religiously required; some live with it as a social reality; some condemn it best they can.

>>As for women being equal or unequal - it should be sufficient to say that people belonging to pagan religions of east have elected more women as their leaders than some of the progressive ones in the west. Two countries called Sri Lanka and India immediately come to mind.

Wait. The cosmic moral calculator say enough moral credit was earned to treat the remaining women like beasts.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
105
Bleeding Nonsense writes:

>>Gupta period didn't include to ALL of present day India.

If it didn't, it didn't. What's the contradicting evidence that Gupta period included all of present day India? Let the chips fall where the evidence points to. Don't hangwring over implications of facts; like whether the tamils will give a shit about the Guptas. Just nail down the facts to the extend the evidence supports it.

>>So, in her opinion Tamils should not be interested in this.

Now you are proving to be the jackass that I suspected you of being. Did she say, Tamils, close your ears. This doesn't concern you or does your Chaddi historiography requires you to invent "facts" that the Gupta period included all of present day India to make up a convenient myth of unity from antiquity or whatever fits the day's ideological demands?

>>But can she apply the same reasoning for Indian Muslims? They never lived under Rule of 4 Khalifas. Or why Europe which is outside Greece treats ancient Greece as classical one.

If you have evidence that contradicts it, present it.

>>Other Logic she provides is: high culture, equality was applicable to ONLY higher classes. But was Equality of Classical Greece (say Aristotle) applicable to everybody? Nope, it was not for women, and salve.

Who argues that everyone was equal in Classical Greece? History say Greeks articulated the idea of equality. The fact they were incomplete in its practice in no way changes the fact they articulated it first in a compelling and systematic manner.

>>Muslims started discovering Equality in Islam ONLY AFTER French revolution.

No wonder Chaddi history books are fit for only lining bird cages with. Besides being outright false, let's play along with your game. So what prevented your team from adopting it at all? It wasn't convincing enough?

>>It clearly proves, Thapar's apparently good logic is NOT accepted by Europeans, or Muslims. But EVERYBODY expects Indians TO ACCEPT THAPAR AS LAST WORD. Funny, isn't it? People like her forces because its Hindus who are more tolerant of heterodoxy.

So History all boils down to that. Damn the facts. Just make up facts so Hindus can be comfortable in their skins. That must the goal Herodotus had in mind when he started writing History.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
104
Knowing Muslims from books emanating from ivory towers is quite different from knowing them as neighbors, friends or relatives. I have known quite a lot of them in my life, and I do not recall anyone seized with the problems of loss of Spain or with the mission to expand the borders of Islam, although many empathize with Palestinians, because that unlike Spain is seen as the loss of one's homeland. I am sure there are loonies dreaming of great conquests, probably no more than 2% of the world's Muslim population, many of them unemployed and unemployable, some extreme fanatics such as Al Quaeda or L-e-T, who can derive as many distorted justifications from the Quran as they want to. The vast bulk of the Muslim population is interested in what most people are interested in, putting food in front of their children, shelter, jobs, societal relationships and freedom to worship. Many of them are living under oppressive dictatorships in the Middle East. Muslims may be prone to be too easily aroused to the cause of defending their faith at the call of the mullahs, and they may have been ghettoized to a point where their participation in academics and employment may be impaired. These are weaknesses, but the depiction of Muslims as covert or overt revolutionaries pursuing world conquest, or weeping over the loss of Spain is somewhat fanciful.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
103
Old Mac groans and continues his holier than thou attitude thus:

"What if the concept of equality runs against some religions? Where does respect end and legitimate criticism begin? You will have orthodox members of atleast 2 religions that will be up in arms saying equal status of women is non-sense imported from the Evil West."

One can give examples of every religion being against the concept of equality. Religions have equally used color and caste to keep certain sections of socities deprived of basic human dignity. It is another matter that religions that used color to achieve those means somehow consider themselves absolved of all sins and ready to point finger at everyone else. As for women being equal or unequal - it should be sufficient to say that people belonging to pagan religions of east have elected more women as their leaders than some of the progressive ones in the west. Two countries called Sri Lanka and India immediately come to mind.

Vikas Chowdhry
Madison, USA
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
102
Ghulam writes:

>>Mr Adi, criticism of Hinduism in any texts should be as taboo as critcism of any other religion. Text books are supposed to enhance knowledge, not create dissensions.

Rendition of indisputable facts will be seen as criticism by the thin-skinned on all sides. Facts are what history is made up of.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
101
Ghulam writes:

>>it may be easier to teach a subject titled Humanism, subsuming such concepts as equality of human beings, respect for religions of others, equal status of women, opposition to violence, peaceful resolution of problems etc.

What if the concept of equality runs against some religions? Where does respect end and legitimate criticism begin? You will have orthodox members of atleast 2 religions that will be up in arms saying equal status of women is non-sense imported from the Evil West. What if a religion preaches everything is illusory, including the difference between violence and peace? What happens if guys who wear beards and carry around big swords find that peaceful resolution is namby pamby stuff that never settles anything definitively?

Not to throw cold water on your plans. But these are tough questions you need convincing answers. No matter what you teach, there will be embedded values in that teaching.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
100
Bleeding Indian writes:

>>The objective of RSS is nothing religious, but political power through cultural homogenization.

Forced homogenization into a chauvanistic culture through physical threats and intimidation is part of that program?

>>But people like him are so rattled with the word 'dharma' (little realizing its different from religion). Poor, common people are paying for the "eutopia" of select 'few'.

Few trishul carrying eutopian seekers are the clear and present danger to those "poor, common people"
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
99
Bleeding Nonsense writes:

>>Fact remains, a viscious activism is going on in India, where most interestingly left is working with international rightwingers like Missionaries, and other groups. Its now exposed who funds whom, how the network works, and who does what........

Yes, the whole world is conspiring. You are the at receiving end of the mandal theory. Crawl under the bed, suck your thumb and wet your diaper. You sound like that chicken-shit Minu Chatterjee....although your writing is better, the substance is the same psychotic rambling.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
98
Bleeding Indian writes:

>> Avg Muslim believes in "Andalus syndrome', mourn the loss of 'Muslim power'. This is a recurring theme of Urdu Poetry, literature, Journalism as Mushirul Hasan tells us. Its never ending for most people, and passed from generation to generation.

That is a fair observation. Here’s my two cents. The “loss” of Spain is more than a psychological blow to the general Muslim psyche. It’s a source of more ominous theological crisis. I don’t know if the Koran explicitly or implicitly speaks to it. But, interpretation has made Islam’s terrestrial success a sine qua non for its theological viability. Terrestrial failure doesn’t raise questions of just Allah’s displeasure but His existence. When the Jews went into the Babylonian Captivity in 586 BC, they saw it as punishment from Yahweh for their unfaithfulness to him. Whatever the Prophet taught them originally, Islam has since deemphasized individual inner spiritual life with corporate ritual; perhaps that was inevitable in traditional mostly illiterate rural tribal societies. In its place, it emphasized terrestrial success. But there in lies Islam’s greatest vulnerability. This theology requires them to be masters of at least the areas they control. They aren’t able to reconcile their theology with the fact that Middle-East affairs have been in effect controlled by non-Muslims since the break-up of the Ottoman Empire. This was preceded by 10 centuries of proof in uninterrupted Muslim terrestrial success, with the Andalusian exceptions, followed by Israel. It’s not just humiliating to Muslims; it’s humiliating to Allah as they chose to understand him. Perhaps that is why middle-class, well educated men, who have everything to live for, fly airplanes into towers; with more mayhem to come. Then again may be those individuals are just crazy bastards.

The de-linking of terrestrial success from spiritual success is the key to Islam beating its existential crisis. Islam provides meaning and solace to nearly 2 billions souls as they navigate through the tribulations of life. It needs a Muhammad Luther. It needs him now.

Someone with better insight should enlighten us.

>>While Indians continue digging for more proofs on (say) Indus(-Saraswati) Civilization, to make Indian culture more antique, take pride in that...;

Nothing like archeology in pursuit of a specific end result; No wonder Indian archeological findings are slightly less credible than a Three Dollar bill.

Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
97
Deepak writes:

>>Hi, ABHISHEK DROLIA, I have been reading your posts for quite a while now and I am impressed with your logic and coherence. But may I respectfully suggest that you go on RSS website to gain a better understanding.

>>BTW, I am not an RSS member but at some stage I would like to be one.

Membership is as easy as 1-2-3:

1) Have a 6th grader fill out an application
2) put your left thumbprint on the bottom
3) empty the meager contents of your skull.

Tada, you are now a card carrying member of the RSS.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
96
Mr Adi, criticism of Hinduism in any texts should be as taboo as critcism of any other religion. Text books are supposed to enhance knowledge, not create dissensions. You may be on to something when you say religion has no place in schools, especially in pluralistic societies like the ones in India and America.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
95
Mr Adi, I shall be glad to respond to the non-cantankerous part of your post. Hindus and Muslims may be different but they are both Indians. Americans consider the diversity in their countrymen to be an asset, and so should we. Historically we have all done terrible things, but our future cannot be just a saga of retributions for the past.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
94
Mr.Faruki,
There is no place to teach religion in schools, period. If they want to be critical of Hinduism in Indian texts, sure why not? let's open up the history of Islam and Christianity to honest analysis in the exact same spririt!! But then no, that would be "anti-secular" no? How horrible? Those bigoted Hindus should be taught a lesson, gather the petrol-cans, Muslim brothers. Let's teach the Hindu pigs a lesson and burn their women and children to death!!
and so it goes...
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
93
"arindam banerjee pulls out these stats from his ass, even while he tries his best to get rid of his constipation!"

Nice high school trick nits - shrill attacks on the messenger - deny, deny, deny, ....

all of course, in stead of providing any counter-evidence...
Arindam Banerji
Sunnyvale, USA
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
92
Mr.Faruki: "but Muslims, unlike the British, are Indians and the inability of many to fully accept that is the basis of many of our problems."
We meet again - hopefully on more cordial terms this time. Historically Muslims have always maintained that they are different from Hindus and their culture is different from that of the "Indians" since historically "Indians" were "Hindus". Hence the usage of Persian and Turki as court languages rather than the language spoken by the Hindus or any other regional languages. You see this not just in the first generation of Islamic "rulers" who were after all foreigners, but many generations later as well. Today you come along and change the definition of "Indian" to suit your identity and tell me that I am not accepting your "Indian"ness? Why do Muslims insist on behaviour like looking different from Hindus, speaking differnt language than the regional tongue, splitting the country and many other such absurd things unless they have a serious neurosis about their identity? Why the hell should anyone consider a Muslim an "Indian" when all they do is complain about how "unfair" India is to Muslims while Hindus are starving to death? Muslims are the most selfish, self-centered, egotistic people on this planet. When a minority, they talk about human rights. Once a majority they murder all non-muslims. Nice game, Mr.Faruki.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
91
B_I, the concept of equality of religions would require creating a curriculum that exposes the kids to all religions practised in India, not just those religions originating in India. I, for one, would support such a curriculum if it was equitably drawn up, but I am afraid most parents would object to their children being exposed to religions other than their own. A few years ago mothers in Kansas were up in arms when one of the school text books gave brief introductions to Hinduism and Islam. Religious teaching should be primarily home-based and temple- or mosque-based. Classics such as Gitanjali, passages from Vivekanand, Ghalib, Sufi writings, the Psalms etc can be taught in schools if the selections are made judiciously and equitably, and the parents are won over by gentle persuasion. Since religion is such an explosive subject, it may be easier to teach a subject titled Humanism, subsuming such concepts as equality of human beings, respect for religions of others, equal status of women, opposition to violence, peaceful resolution of problems etc.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
90
NUTS I mean NITS, mind your language. Arindam is accurate. Get off this site if you can't maintain decorum. You have one BIG attitude and the usual false sense of superiority complex that a muslim carries. Change your ways or you will come crashing down. Take Ghulam as an example who always puts forward his point of view with decency that is called for.

Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
89
B_I, Nehru's speech to AMU was like a breath of fresh air. Yashpal's NCF revision is a laudable document, and can be the basis for a sensible curriculum. Habib's contention, " Throughout the document (NCF-2005) there is no statement that religion should not be allowed to colour teaching and that it should not be the business of schools to spread values attributed to any religion," does carry some merit, but is not sufficient reason to reject the NCFR.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
88
Mr.Nsar: "Why there is no word on the annihilation of the Buddist religion in India." - How cunning. Would you like to know how Buddhism was wiped out of India, present-day Pakistan and Afghanistan which were the cradle of Buddhism? Do a search on the internet, moron!
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
87
Bleeding_Indian, I was referring to news reports in TOI over the past two or three months on new texts issued in Gujerat. These reports were written by TOI correspondents and not by Cedric Prakash. While I find much in your post that I can agree with, I am also aware that villification of Muslims in history has now acquired a general currency compared to the situation that existed when I was a student. When you object to foreigners writing Indian history, I can agree with you as far as British historians are concerned, but Muslims, unlike the British, are Indians and the inability of many to fully accept that is the basis of many of our problems. Since we all carry our baggages, my view of things may be as slanted as yours, but that is to be expected!
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 07, 2005 12:00 AM
86
Bleeding_Indian's list of sharp differences may in fact be an entry point for the beginning of a dialogue. It could be an ongoing process rather than a rush to a closure. Teaching vastly different versions of the same events is at least problematic and, with incteasingly porous borders, destined to become ridiculous.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
85
Kiran, I realize that Pakistan's being a theocratic state is a problem. There are elements in the educated community there favoring liberal and secular reforms in their schools. Joint think tanks may strengthen such elements.

The Cities section of The Times Of India carried news items a couple of months ago giving extracts from some newly published text books in Gujerat showing how one-sided the presentation has become compared to what we were taught when I went to school. The uniform nature of the prejudice and misinformation exhibited by several of our posters must have its origin somewhere, either in schools or the spread of the Sangh doctrines. I can quite imagine how someone raised in this atmosphere may not be able to see the egregiousness in the current ethos.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
84
ghulam:
"joint Indo-Pakistani advisory board consisting of educationists from both countries to monior what is being taught in our educational institutions and to help achieve at least a modicum of consensus."

Why should India a democratic secular country take assistance of pakistan a theocracy in formulating school syllabus for children ? you must be a nut to make such a suggestion.

"(witness the degree of hate and misinformation regarding minorities in some of the best products of our educational system as represented on this forum)"

Please tell us where Indian state education system in anyway extolls bigorty and religious hatred. As long you fail to prove it you may consider stopping your weasel like arguements here.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
83
arindam banerjee pulls out these stats from his ass, even while he tries his best to get rid of his constipation!
nits
nashville, USA
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
82
deepak showing his gay affection for abhiskek. sucker, get on his as*!
nits
nashville, USA
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
81
Articles such as the one by Amir Mir would hopefully put some pressure on Pakistani authorities to clean up their education system and readjust their curricula so as to foster greater understanding and goodwill toward Hindus, Christains and Jews. Since our own educational system could also use some similar moderating influences (witness the degree of hate and misinformation regarding minorities in some of the best products of our educational system as represented on this forum), it may not be a bad idea to have some joint Indo-Pakistani advisory board consisting of educationists from both countries to monior what is being taught in our educational institutions and to help achieve at least a modicum of consensus. We have a common heritage and a common history and, despite partition, continue to live in the same continent. The centrifugal forces unleashed by partition have taken us probably as far apart as we can go. Maybe it is time to move in the other direction.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
80
Hi, ABHISHEK DROLIA, I have been reading your posts for quite a while now and I am impressed with your logic and coherence. But may I respectfully suggest that you go on RSS website to gain a better understanding.

BTW, I am not an RSS member but at some stage I would like to be one.
Deepak
Dubai, UAE
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
79
SREEJITH
"s that you, who started the nobel prize in Maths? Now don't tell us that you were referring to the Abel prize"

haha ...this guy old mac would rather have a nobel for "chaddi bashing" where he coould be the judge jury and the winner.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
78
"In AP they have got reservations and this is another big source for RSS to recruit people and start killing muslims "

Hindus should be happy. They can convert to Islam, avail the benefits and reconvert back in to Hinduism.
sreejith
bangalore, india
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
77
Naheed says
"How many of us for ex. were brought up reading "Darwins theory of evolution" thinking that it was a fact"


These chaddis.….. They even included Darwins theory in the Indian text books!!


sreejith
bangalore, india
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
76
This equal equal thing is really funny.

Pakistan kills 100000 indians(in 50 years) and drives 400000 kashmiri pandits out of there homeland .

Some hindu fanatics brutally kill there own country men in gujrat and mind you the pakistani numbers for killing minorities will never be known, never. And here all indian muslims are going out and doing equal equal.

The reason is simple. Pakistan is the entity which was what they wanted to become before independence pakistan was the country which was to symbolise the liberal, educated and forward looking mind you SECULAR also and ISLAMIC also. Mind you secular and islamic both wow.

So they still think that there is hope , they still believe that pakistan is better, they still believe that the model of pakistan is better and that is why this yearn and craving. They used to see of themselves as the ruler of this country with all the priveledges but then they have become impoverished due to there own fault and in pakistan they see the country which is there destiny. This is the principle reason for indian muslims emotionally attached to pakistan and will always be becuase this is what they want and not a country where everybody lives as an equal.

Having said this. RSS is a very dangerous organisation. It is changing hinduism and creating fissures and tension and hatred. I have seen it happening and i know that it is for real. RSS is there in this country for last 80 years and it will remain for another 800 years. Indeed institutions like RSS have always been in this country. They have always been contained by the larger opinion in this country and will continue to be so. RSS has support in different section of indian society on differing matters. The resentment against muslims is also always there and much of the reason is muslims themselves and there habit of segregrating themselves and asking for unnecessary priveldges.

In AP they have got reservations and this is another big source for RSS to recruit people and start killing muslims. Muslims are not going to benefit from this reservation as they did not benefit from Shah Bano. Since Shah Bano the position of muslims have deterioted like hell. There credibility is totally lost.

They dont have any argument. They are a bunch of religious fundamentalists(all of them) who just want to create seperatism, division in the society.

If RSS is bad all these muslims are even worse. These people cannot stand on there two feet and keep on creating hindu backlash once in a while. This reservation, haz subsidy, shariah court, is all a mess.

The level of resentment will keep on increasing.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
75
Old macu explains
"Similarly, in its broadest sense, Jihad, according to my Muslim acquaintances, is a Koranic exhortation to put forth your best effort in everything you do in life. Naturally, it would include studying biology. "

Jihad being such a good concept, they have decided to include biology in Jihad books

sreejith
bangalore, india
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
74
Old macu says
"Just yesterday, I saw those textbooks displayed next to row after glorious row of Indian Nobel Prize winners in Science and Math."

Is that you, who started the nobel prize in Maths? Now don't tell us that you were referring to the Abel prize

sreejith
bangalore, india
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
73
"How many indian children hate pakistani children just because they consider pakistan as enimical country?"

Mr "enimical" country - please don't leave home with this kind of madrassah logic...let us review the facts...

- Pakistan kills about 1800-2500 Indians every year
- Over the last 2 decades they have killed over 100,000 Indians

- Over the lastdecade, al most every single International terrorist act, has had a Pakistani connection

- and oh!! before we go whining about "only a few Pakistanis" are terrorists, let us look at the data again...

- 44% of the pakistani population in a recent poll supported and somewhat supported suicide bombings

- Last Eid, the average Pakistani raised about Rs 190 Cr. (according toFriday Times) for terrorist groups, who advertise their achievements thru gruesome pictures of dead Indians - at Rs40-Rs 50 per donation - figure out how many Pakistanis paid up to kill Indian women and Children

So, let us not do this India-Pakistan equal-equal thing - dont take my word for it - just do a google on Bangladesh + genocide and see what kinds of nice things turn up about the "poor", unjustly hated Pakis.
Arindam Banerji
Sunnyvale, USA
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
72
old mac :
¨Similarly, in its broadest sense, Jihad, according to my Muslim acquaintances, is a Koranic exhortation to put forth your best effort in everything you do in life. Naturally, it would include studying biology.
¨
Does it matter what koranic exhortation ¨really¨ is ? what matters is what most muslims believe to be. The laws in muslim majority countries have amply demonstrated that it means killing apostates and saying no to individual rights.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
71
indranil:
¨
The post was specific to that guy.

¨Calling muslims as liars and then complaining about them being 'ungratefull'.... is not the best way to show hindus as superior being...¨

Iam not trying to show hindus as superior being Hindus certainly are not superior beings.

¨And if you say that hindu fanatism doesn't exist in India then just reread your post...¨

Never said that . Hindu fanatics exist and they too need to crushed ..but the level of threat they pose to democracy or secularism is not what it is made out to be. If you want to weed out hindu fanatics you cant by attributing to them things which they dont really stand for.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
70
oldmac:
´. As long as I can remember, Muslims have always been depicted in Indian school books, as early as elementary level, as suspicious and untrustworthy. The illustrations almost always depict th¨

prove it.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
69
oldmac :
¨Just yesterday, I saw those textbooks displayed next to row after glorious row of Indian Nobel Prize winners in Science and Math¨

Did you touch them with your filthy hands? they may have to be sent for cleaning.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
68
What is the real purpose of the VHP Chatralays set up in Gujarat for indoctrination in Hindutva ideology of children brought from Tripura and Mizoram? And talking of the VHP, does anyone worry about Togadia going from state to state distributing trishuls to local Hindus?
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
67

What if Brits told me what thing, Nits? India was a colony of Britain, in the same way that Nigeria or Kenya was. Or in the way Angola was a colony of Portugal, Vietnam and Algeria of France, Congo of Belgium etc. Kashmir is not a colony of India. It is an integral, equal( some would say more than equal!) part of it. There is no inferior people/superior people or a rulers and the ruled dichotomy at work here.Kashmir is as Indian as Mumbai and Kolkata. Do we really have to go over this again and again?
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
66
Oh no, jihad has got nothing to do with exhorting oneself to do better in biology or mathematics. It is very much an us-versus-them concept, the "them" being the hated infidel idolators who are opposing Moslem conquest and colonization.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
65
Old Mac, use that wonderful wisdom about changing oneself, and apply it to those you admire so much-the British and the Americans. I'm sure lowly Indians are not the only people who could benefit from such wonderful advice.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
64
Swaminathan:

Its probably better to ask Old Mac about Christian terrorists, rather than the Jihadis.
dcindia
Omaha, United States
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
63
"Somewhere along the way, the concept gets hijacked to justify thirst for personal conquest and ambition."

Old_mac finally cleared the exam for becoming christain priest/Pope. Finally he was able to convince muslims about crusade using the jihad analogy.
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
62
colonising means taking other people's lands, ruining their enterprise, stealing their money, raping the womens, destroying their lands.
Oh!! I forget RSS/VHP were accused of that. So I guess they were not lazy and dumb after all.

I think it has been some time since you left school. So you should go and show your ass to those Church priest. Oh they need young blood preferably under 14 and old_mac is ofcourse old.

smartass comments or signs of a loser/coward !!
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
61
Free Speech writes:

>>>>"bigotry is a package deal; it necessarily comes with laziness and inability."

>>That is why the christain priest bigots colonised the world as they were lazy and unable to solve their persecution problem.

Going out and colonizing the world contradicts laziness, dumbass. But since you are recipient of the finest schooling under a banyan tree that the Cow Belt has to offer, we will cut you some slack....like retarded kids competing in Special Olympics.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
60
Swami Nathan writes:

>>Jihad in a biology text book. I am racking my brain. Old Mac, Shukoor, NITS explain

Take for example the idea of dowry. Originally, it was a wedding present/retirement fund a girl's parents give TO HER on her wedding as to goes off to new home. Somewhere along the way, the idea gets perverted and transmutes into the cost of buying a husband.

Similarly, in its broadest sense, Jihad, according to my Muslim acquaintances, is a Koranic exhortation to put forth your best effort in everything you do in life. Naturally, it would include studying biology.

It is unclear if Koran states it explicitly or Muslims argue by inference that it should also mean putting forth your best effort in defending/spreading Islam using war, terror etc.

Somewhere along the way, the concept gets hijacked to justify thirst for personal conquest and ambition.

In the final analysis, its the fault of the Muslims to let an otherwise laudable concept like exhortation turn into a frankenstein monster that infuses theological zeal into carrying out acts that are explicitly and repeatedly condemned and forbidden in numerous parts of the Koranic text.

****Warning****Warning**** This amount of nuance might leave Chaddi brains smoking and hissing.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
59
"bigotry is a package deal; it necessarily comes with laziness and inability."

That is why the christain priest bigots colonised the world as they were lazy and unable to solve their persecution problem. Catholics killing protestant and vice versa. After colonising they left progenies behind to keep up their bigotory and racism.

That is why we still have bigots left who cannot think/talk straight. This weasels have been doing this for last so many centuries that it is their second nature and they respond that way without even thinking.

You kick them and they come back licking your ass.
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
58
Vikas writes:

>>what is the point in discussing what pakis teach their kids

As Mark Twain said, "Nothing so needs reforming as other people." That way we can run out the clock and we won't have time for the unpleasant task of reforming ourselves.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
57
Free Speech writes:

>>As an aside based on your what you said before ?
The question is simple. If in a war you are faced with Pakis/Saudi Arabia and you have a option to choose one of two person. One a RSS person and another a mullah from a Indian madrassa. How will you choose?

100% - The idiot who came up with this hypothetical would get my bullet between the eyes. Sufficiently concrete without any vagueness?
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
56
Jihad in a biology text book. I am racking my brain. Old Mac, Shukoor, NITS explain
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
55
Vikas writes:

>>Now tell me what is your point if you can stick to the topic!

Perhaps...people who live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones.

or perhaps....you should take the log out of your eye before taking a speck out of your neighbor's eye..

perhaps...control the things you can and don't worry about things you are beyond control..

the list could go on....
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
54
Swami Nathan writes:

>>...India would be been far worse off without RSS and Bal thackeray.

Yeah, it could have been respectable instead of a contemptible cesspool.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
53
About NITS
This guys is not only stupendously stupid but also arrogant one on that. That is why I guess he keeps calling everyone moron!!

After passing the comment 'every generalization is false' he keeps on doing it.
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
52
Varun Shekar writes:

>>The comparison of alleged human rights violations by Indian security forces to Pakistan as a *country* based on religious hatred is again false and contemptible. The Indian security forces don't want to be in Kashmir.

Let’s let the world media go into Kashmir and document the facts that will destroy any contemptible comparisons; unless of course we have something to hide. In which case, we don’t need facts…..just a self-serving premise will do.

>>They, and the rest of India, would be happy to see Kashmir remain a democratic, open, pluralistic state which is an integral part of India's federal system. Kashmiris enjoy all the freedoms other Indians do;

Top 6 Freedoms enjoyed by Kashmiris (as compiled by our home office in Chaddiville, Gujarat)

6. Freedom to be isolated from the world
5. Freedom to get shot
4. Freedom to get raped
3. Freedom to be held incognito without a trial
2. Freedom of having special laws applied nowhere else
1. Freedom to soil the Indian flag by associating it with systematic human rights violations and political repression.

>>but they cannot and do not have the freedom to separate.

Not even after an explicit promise of plebiscite to precisely decide that issue? Indian promise good as gold….fool’s gold.

>>The Kashmir movement, in any case, is *not* a progressive people's drive for more democracy, more openness and more secularism, but rather everything opposite! It is nothing but a crude, vulgar mixture of religious hatred and ethno-chauvinism, heavily supported by Pakistan.

Whether it is progressive or not is irrelevant. If they want to go back to the Stone Age, that’s their right. India’s obligation is to follow through its promise made in procuring its own independence, which is now tainted by a broken promise.

>>Also, can Nits, or anyone else making the false India=Pakistan comparison point to another country in the world which has been through what India has( invasion, partition, separatism) and dealt with these conditions in a far more mature and responsible way than India has

With sad violin music playing in the background and tears streaming down our faces at such a unique and unprecedented experience in human history, shall we rate this sob story? On a scale of one to five hankies, I give it five snot-filled ones for an unabashed ability to self-congratulate, self-praise and self-pity.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
51
Ghulam writes:

>> History textbooks, when discussing Muslims, bring up only the violent aspects without any balancing material. Even the latest editions which came out only 2 or 3 months ago in Gujerat have not a single good word to say about Muslims, while being quite laudatory of Hitler. The hatred and rudeness toward Muslims seen even in this forum, with its highly educated participants, is in marked contrast to the way Hindus and Muslims used to address each other just a few decades ago.

Indian textbooks are subtler than Pakistan’s; but only by a hair. As long as I can remember, Muslims have always been depicted in Indian school books, as early as elementary level, as suspicious and untrustworthy. The illustrations almost always depict them in crouching, furtive manner with facial reactions of someone who was just caught doing wrong. The good news is that there are enough thinking Indians and poor, too preoccupied with survival, to prevent Muslim hating to be a full-time national hobby. The bad news is that Muslims are “alien” is an idea deeply embedded in Indian psyche; that in itself is an inferiority complex that all the outward bravado only serves to highlight. Afterall, the Arabs have oil and the Muslims have the world’s attention. All the India’s Muslim-haters have are short pants and a tenuous grasp on reality.

You should be aware that bigotry is a package deal; it necessarily comes with laziness and inability. That’s why bigots cannot judge individuals as just individuals but as proxy for a group. Notice the asymmetry. A bad guy in “their” group represents all. A good guy in “our” group represents all. A good guy in “their” group & a bad guy in “our” group are unworthy outliers you ignore. All very simple….and simple minded. BTW, no correlation between education and hatred.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
50
Kiran writes:

>>Hey moron, when did you see an Indian science textbook or a math book? First go through them you may realise they do focus on gathering evidence and scientific methodologies. Dont puke your ignorance in this forum.

Just yesterday, I saw those textbooks displayed next to row after glorious row of Indian Nobel Prize winners in Science and Math.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
49
vikas , you know what i believe...
there is not a single soul in the entire history, who changed his opinion on sound reaasoning and debate.
The instinct to protect ones views are greater than unprejudiced judgement. and everyone has a opinion, untill the person is totally ignorant.

so i don't delude myself by imagining that i will be able to change anybody's opinion, and neither will you. i have tried it to no avail.
What i am doing is just practicing my right to put forth my opinion, so that these vultures don't overrun whatever intellectual space is left in india.



nits
nashville, USA
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
48
Nits you make three incorrect assumptions:

what is the point in discussing what pakis teach their kids
-Because we want peace on the border. Hatred taught through propoganda is going to affect the long term stability of our region if Pakistan keeps on producing more and more of Zia-Ul-Haqs and Musharaffs rather than AR Rahmans and Aziz Premjis.

and what is there to discuss? when you cannot influence them!
-Maybe yes maybe no - but by discussing at least it is not shoved under the carpet. If LA Times had followed your reasoning they would have never published their article.
but you can influence indians, correct.
-Not by having the attitude that shouts that I am out here to show these ignorant stupid Indians what is true knowledge and they better listen to me. This Massey Sahib attitude (which by the way is the attitude of Old Mac as well on this forum) will only harden the opinion on both sides. There is nothing wrong in having strong opinions but calling names discourages me to even listen to your opinion leave alone agreeing to them.

Vikas Chowdhry
Madison, USA
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
47
As an aside based on your what you said before ?
The question is simple.
If in a war you are faced with Pakis/Saudi Arabia and you have a option to choose one of two person.
One a RSS person and another a mullah from a Indian madrassa.
How will you choose ? Base your answer on probability and do not give a vague answer like "every generalization is false".
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
46
NITS
You accuse me of bringing down others thru this but call all others donkeys and morons. You are stranger to words like 'decent' and truth. From discussing the communal pakistani curriculum you have dragged all to denigrating Hindus, demanding definition of Hinduism and some inconsequential poll. Well even if the polls are true doesn't it say something about India and Indians. that they are free to criticize and choose the leaders they want. Just because I support RSS does not automatically mean that the entire 1 billion also do. That's a warped muslim thinking. Follow the sheep.

You say there is nothing left to discuss. Yes nothing left really with people like you.
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
45
vikas,
dude, paksitan is not my country, india is; and i am worried about it.
what is the point in discussing what pakis teach their kids, and what is there to discuss? when you cannot influence them! but you can influence indians, correct.
tell me if you can have any relevant point.
the chaddis will come here and abuse mullahs, and the rest will abuse pakis, and it will keep on going around in round circles.
Besides, this news is not a new discovery, but highlighting the flip side is definitely relevant.
nits
nashville, USA
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
44
Nits -

What does a definition of Hinduism has to do with the topic of this article?

Shouldn't we be discussing the ideologies of hatred being preached in Pakistan's textbooks? We have similar people trying to do similar things in India as well but usually there are enough sensible people around to rein them in and you could not point to a CBSE or ICSE text book that is as rabid as the ones discussed in either this or the LA Times article.

Now tell me what is your point if you can stick to the topic!
Vikas Chowdhry
Madison, USA
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
43
swaminathan ,
this board is not a cometition on showing others down.
you are not ready to believe that any hindu can oppose RSS and i am not a muslim, hence, no decent dialogue can proceed from this point.
neither did you gave my answer regarding the last election result, nor did you define hinduism for me. what is left to discuss?
nits
nashville, USA
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
42
...India would be been far worse off without RSS and Bal thackeray. It would have been overwhelmed by bearded vermins wailing over the loud speakers.
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
41
NITS
"to all these swaminathans and indian secularists, who have conviniently branded me as a muslim."

You are a muslim, a true one at that, which is what all secular minded Indians and others across the world are real scared of..

NITS
who believe that only muslims oppose chaddi gang (RSS)..
1) interpret the 2004 results correctly..majority of hindus are not pro-BJP
2) My dad has served in rashtriya rifles, and i have stayed in srinagar for three years. i still remember my friends form army school near BB cantt. these bloody swaminathans and indian secularists, sit in comfort of their drawing rooms, and make their opiniions based on drawingroom conversations, and pretend to be experts. you theird-rate morons, get some life, and brain."

And you sitting in Tennesse, not even India and make grand statements and conclusions about Hindus and non-muslims all courtesy your supreme mullah Bin Laden.

NITS
3) finally, i can challange you to interpret hinduism. can you define the essence of hinduism here in 2-3 sentences. lets see, what you understand, for i know, a chaddee gang member cannot. they had this site called hinduunity.org, where they had defined hinduism, similar to what islam is. of course,i acted, and that site has been taken of.

Bravo! That's what you can do and that's what is expected of morons like you. There should be absolutely no questions asked. All religions are false. There is one and only one religion called Islam. There is one god called Allah. There is only one prophet called Mohammed.

Go get a life NITS. You guys will never change. We may by chance see the Sun rise from the west, hear a cat sing but can never expect a muslim to reason. Never expect a muslim to accept criticism. This breed is unique to this planet with no similarities whatsoever with the rest of the humanity or for that matter any other living creature.

Transport this entire breed en masse to some other galaxy so that the rest of the humanity can live without fear of a bus or a train being blown up or children being mowed down in schools.

4) some idiot commented here that gandhi said many things wrong. what kind of a donkey are you? do me a favour, look up your face in the mirror and say that again. he was epitome of truth. he did say one thing wrong..forgive everyone. had the government than acted fast and kicked chaddee banyaan gang, india would have been a btter place
Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
40
excluding that.
It still holds.
You do not get the point !!

Maybe you need a 101 of the outside world(the world outside the family)
Start by thinking why we need an miltary and why politician rule in a democracy!!
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
39
free speach writes>> could not help it.
Meditate on this
"every generalization is false"..

dude, i don't want to into paradoxes, and i understand the statement is ironical by itself...
but did you get the point i was trying to convey?
nits
nashville, USA
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
38
I could not help it.

Meditate on this

"every generalization is false"
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
37
It still holds.
You do not get the point !!
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Oct 06, 2005 12:00 AM
36
free speach writes >> guess that is why people with Miltary background are not allowed to lead the country...
well, don't guess moron. analyze! every generalization is false. if you say that military guys don't think, i can give you examples of otherwise, and if you say that they are all deshbhakt gentlemen, then even that is not true.

the problem is figurative language. since this world is infinitely vast and complex, we human beings tend to whittle it down to our understanding, and hence use simplifies terms.
So when we use military, india, pakistan etc.. they are not some single person that you can conviniently ascribe certain qualities to.
these simplifications can cause lot of trouble....for instance, americans may identify 9/11 terrorits by verying dgrees of comfort..
- fringe elements who happen to be islamic
- muslims,
- pakistanis
-south asians
- or even browns.
i hope i have conveyed my point.

varun then babbles "Kashmiris enjoy all the freedoms other Indians do; but they cannot and do not have the freedom to separate"
well, what if brits told you the same thing?
nits
nashville, USA
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
35
NITS:
>>
to all these swaminathans and indian secularists, who have conviniently branded me as a muslim...

How does that matter that you are not a muslim?

As long as you can put your points correctly
your religious identity doesnot matter...

By the way, it is better to use clean language to make your point (don't take this otherwise, it simply gives a bad feeling while reading)...
Indranil
Kolkata, India
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
34
Also, can Nits, or anyone else making the false India=Pakistan comparison point to another country in the world which has been through what India has( invasion, partition, separatism) and dealt with these conditions in a far more mature and responsible way than India has. If so, India would *gladly* learn from such an country. But please don't mention USA, Britain, France, Germany , Canada or Japan. They hold *no* (as in categorically none) lessons for India. They can only preach and wag fingers,
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
33
Kiran
>>
"Nasar" belches :
"Muslims can face the truth but can the Hindu fanatics? "

Really?world over muslims cant even face individual freedoms especially one which gives a person right to change one religion and you talk about "truth" ???

Even if the muslims cannot face the truth, that doesn't mean hindu fanatics can.....

Calling muslims as liars and then complaining about them being 'ungratefull'.... is not the best way to show hindus as superior being....

The article reports about deplorable condition of pakistan's education system. Which should be denounced but one has to also keep in mind that the same thing is not repeated in India in the form of hindu fanaticism...
Hindu fanatics tried to change history books, but
haven't succeded as yet.... which doesn't mean
they won't.. in future....

And if you say that hindu fanatism doesn't exist in India then just reread your post....
Indranil
Kolkata, India
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
32

The comparison of alleged human rights violations by Indian security forces to Pakistan as a *country* based on religious hatred is again false and contemptible. The Indian security forces don't want to be in Kashmir. They, and the rest of India, would be happy to see Kashmir remain a democratic, open, pluralistic state which is an integral part of India's federal system. Kashmiris enjoy all the freedoms other Indians do; but they cannot and do not have the freedom to separate. The Kashmir movement, in any case, is *not* a progressive people's drive for more democracy, more openness and more secularism, but rather everything opposite! It is nothing but a crude, vulgar mixture of religious hatred and ethno-chauvinism, heavily supported by Pakistan.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
31
I guess that is why people with Miltary background are not allowed to lead the country. Only civilians do.
That is why there is separation of the miltary from the running of the country.
They do not use their brain to think and act!!
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
30
another RSS gossip.
everyone is wise after the event. kisee ke marne ke baad kuch bhee bakwaas karo, but that is not a wise thing to do.
kutte to bhonkte hee rahenge, what else can i say.
nits
nashville, USA
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
29
About Gandhiji for NITS,

They spend millions to keep Gandhiji the way he was.

You should be spinning charka and providing employment to the rural people and wear khadi in Srinagar.

For his principle Kasturba has to suffer.

Free Speech
Bihar, India
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
28
to all these swaminathans and indian secularists, who have conviniently branded me as a muslim.
who believe that only muslims oppose chaddi gang (RSS)..
1) interpret the 2004 results correctly..majority of hindus are not pro-BJP
2) My dad has served in rashtriya rifles, and i have stayed in srinagar for three years. i still remember my friends form army school near BB cantt. these bloody swaminathans and indian secularists, sit in comfort of their drawing rooms, and make their opiniions based on drawingroom conversations, and pretend to be experts. you theird-rate morons, get some life, and brain.
3) finally, i can challange you to interpret hinduism. can you define the essence of hinduism here in 2-3 sentences. lets see, what you understand, for i know, a chaddee gang member cannot. they had this site called hinduunity.org, where they had defined hinduism, similar to what islam is. of course,i acted, and that site has been taken of.
4) some idiot commented here that gandhi said many things wrong. what kind of a donkey are you? do me a favour, look up your face in the mirror and say that again. he was epitome of truth. he did say one thing wrong..forgive everyone. had the government than acted fast and kicked chaddee banyaan gang, india would have been a btter place.
nits
nashville, USA
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
27
ghulam
"Recent articles in Indian newspapers about the difficulties Muslims face in Gujerat and Rajasthan in getting housing, mortgages, bank loans and jobs are seen by many as a result of a concerted effort to alienate and demonize them"

And muslims ofcourse do not have to take any responsibility for it isnt it ? the consistent refusal to UCC the provocative speeches on fridays... a vague vacillatory atitude towards terrorism .
It is the unfortunate that you make up your image of india through occasional newspaper. Why dont you tak about reservations to muslims in AP ? the minority commision set up in India? the haj subsidy ? which country in the world has it. Indeed you are an ungrateful lot.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
26
"Nasar" belches :
"Muslims can face the truth but can the Hindu fanatics? "

Really?world over muslims cant even face individual freedoms especially one which gives a person right to change one religion and you talk about "truth" ???
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
25
"am an Indian Muslim and I have undergone this experience in my school days"

You are a muslim and a liar. They go well together.
Indian history textbooks are written by excellent historians, who if at all have any leaning, it is towards the left. The first education minister in India was Abul Kalam Azad under Nehru.Infact the major change in history textbooks was bought under a muslim education minister under indira gandhi and they basically remained the same after that. The BJP administration did not add anything about muslims or hindus ,it only sought to remove certain "offensive" statements such as hindus eating beef.
Even now the NCERT panel which writes history textbooks consists of eminent historians such as Irfan Habib and AG Noorani.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
24
old mac :
"The pedagogical philosophy behind Indian education is the culprit. Formulating issues, gathering evidence, assessing evidence, reaching conclusions and clear exposition are all alien to that philosophy. Such capabilities lead to independent thinkers. That's dangerous to the status quo. We can't have that now, can we? "

Hey moron, when did you see an Indian science textbook or a math book? First go through them you may realise they do focus on gathering evidence and scientific methodologies. Dont puke your ignorance in this forum.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
23
>

The Hindu society needs more thinkers like you, Prakash - both for the sake of hinduism and for religious relationships in our country.

The history books in our country are the primary culprit for sustaining hatred over generations.

Well spoken!
Shukoor PS
Bangalore, India
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
22
What is being propagated about Hindus in Pakistan is wrong and shameful. At the same time if one points out the demonization of Muslims in India together with the glorification of Hindu history, one is not being an apologist for Pakistan. Recent articles in Indian newspapers about the difficulties Muslims face in Gujerat and Rajasthan in getting housing, mortgages, bank loans and jobs are seen by many as a result of a concerted effort to alienate and demonize them. History textbooks, when discussing Muslims, bring up only the violent aspects without any balancing material. Even the latest editions which came out only 2 or 3 months ago in Gujerat have not a single good word to say about Muslims, while being quite laudatory of Hitler. The hatred and rudeness toward Muslims seen even in this forum, with its highly educated participants, is in marked contrast to the way Hindus and Muslims used to address each other just a few decades ago. Despite this I would readily admit that things are much worse in Pakistan. But that does not mean we have any cause for self-congratulations.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
21
NITS is yet another case where physically an Indian (or is he?) but heart is in Pakistan. The more appropriate name would be NUTS.

The khakee chaddi gang as you wish to call the RSS are at least people who don't go about with a suicide belt to keep their chaddis in place unlike your 'bhais' in Pakistan and from Pakistan (never mind one had education in LSE, another from cambridge etc.) they are dying to get to those 72 virgins awaiting them in the paradise. Unlike your bearded mullahs who poison people like you every friday the khakee chadde gang is awakening the sleepy Hindus of the dangers awaiting. What's wrong?

You seem to have details of human right violations of the Indian army but conveniently will feign ignorance about the violations of the kashmiri pandits. You are more worried about pakis being stoned in delhi (i am not sure if it ever happened in the recent series). Paksitan treated the way way they did India because that's typical Musharraf game plan. When the whole world focus is on the terrorist state of Pakistan he and his cronies are always one step ahead of the game. The attention was totally diverted to this insignificant series that never warranted so much press. Even an non-cricket palying US gave much press. Now watch Musharraf play yet another game vis-a-vis Sarabjit Singh. This will be dragged as long as the focus on this issue can be retained and then Musharraf in stroke will 'pardon' our man. The world applauds. No man worth his salt can believe that one lone person can plan all the so called bombings. Pathetic liars. Comes naturally to these guys.

Hindu koi dood ke dhule nahi hai, tho musalmaan kya? Jo sheeshe ke ghar me rahte hain woh doosron par patthar nahin phekte.

You are a big joke. A bundle of contradictions. After putting up a stern defence of your paki mullahs you have the cheek to say "My intention is not to write a apologia for islam or pakis"
This is exactly what you are doing. This thing comes sub-conciously to all muslims, to defend another muslim anywhere in the world. You have proved everything written in this article is true, but this time it's an Indian muslim hating the Hindus.

Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
20
NITS,
Gandhi said lots of stupid things and guess who is paying for his stupidity? Indians for decades.
As for human rights violations, you sound like Musharaaf. Violations, no violations, it is India's internal matter. We have institutions in the country to deal with them. Pakistan has no business preaching hatred for that nor promote terror. It is simple not it's place. It's own human rights record is much worse. Now, why didn't people like you never advocate intervening in Pakistan affairs then? You sound like a mullah who goes on the defensive whenever there is a terrorist attack and get back to your normal ways when people forget it. No matter how much you write, there isn't one God given reason in this world that you can possibly come up with, to justify Paki hatred or intervention in India's internal affair.
As for your comments on RSS about poisoning people's mind, it's lies once again. What RSS is doing is educate people about the dangerous activities of mullahs. It is the people like you and the unloyal 150 million mullahs who are poisoning this country. Natwar Singh recently confessed that he has to keep in mind the 150 million mullahs in India while voting on Iran issue. Wasn't it an admission that Indian mullahs are more loyal to Iran than care about India's strategic interests? It is the unhygenic bearded Bin Laden gang that is the threat to India. RSS belongs to India unlike these islamic migrants who looted & raped this country for centuries. They are the real threat. As for people like you, hatred towards Hindus is not letting you see the truth. You are a hopeless case, fit to join a mental asylum.
Indian Secularist
Chicago, United States
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
19
Prakash writes:

>>What about doing away with textbooks for history and make children read extracts of books/essays and debate conflicting viewpoints. Why not instill in kids the penchant to look for conflicting views, gather evidence and the ability to arrive at a conclusion. While this will be very rudimentary at the school level, it will help our country in the long run by making us less amenable to brainwashing and lay the foundation for thinking citizens in the future.

I don't think textbooks are the issue. Most of them so badly written that noone reads them in the first place. The pedagogical philosophy behind Indian education is the culprit. Formulating issues, gathering evidence, assessing evidence, reaching conclusions and clear exposition are all alien to that philosophy. Such capabilities lead to independent thinkers. That's dangerous to the status quo. We can't have that now, can we?
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
18
indian secularist writes
>>NITS,Have you no sense of shame? Are you born to humans
well, have you seen any other animal read and write, moron.

indian secularist then rambles about how paki is spreading hate and indians dont.

well, my whole point is that this world is warped. no one is without fault. Pakistan is definitely at fault on many issues, but if pakis are spreading terrorism, then we are not far behind. india has committed horrendous humans right abuses on kashmiris & north-east.
read history again.. gandhi himself said in 1947 that kashmiris have a right to self determination, afterall that is why we took independence. india even promised in UN to carry put a plebescite, which they never did.
besides, for a clue,just compare how they treated us when indian team went to pak, and how our delhites pelted stones!
My intention is not to write a apologia for islam or pakis, but in realizing you that there are wrongs on this side also. hindu koi doodh ke dhule nahee hai boss.
and this is where Those khakee chadee gang (RSS) comes in.
they have systematically poisoned the hindu mind. they have installed a sense of victimization in hindus, very similar to what nazis did vis-a-vis jews.
chadde gang is the biggest threat, not only to india, but to hinduism...
and you... indian secularist.. you are one of them. there is no hope for you.
nits
nashville, USA
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
17
What about doing away with textbooks for history and make children read extracts of books/essays and debate conflicting viewpoints. Why not instill in kids the penchant to look for conflicting views, gather evidence and the ability to arrive at a conclusion. While this will be very rudimentary at the school level, it will help our country in the long run by making us less amenable to brainwashing and lay the foundation for thinking citizens in the future.

regards
prakash
Sydney, Australia
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
16
Free Speech writes:

>>While India will be developed after some years they will still be supplying maids/servants to Arab mens for dancing.

Not only there is no need for us to get worked up over, there is also no need to boast about things that haven't materialized. Wait until that promised development comes about before you start celebrating. Until then, there will be fierce competition to be on the inbound flights into Gulf Countries to help support remittance depended economies.
Old Mac
???, United States
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
15
It is not surprising that almost all posters with muslim sounding names (save Ahmed, trust he is a muslim) turn out to be apologists with ifs and buts. They just jump to the defence of their paki Islamic brothers.

I hope Amir Mir is not serious when he says

"America's hypocrisy apart, it is in Pakistan's interest to delete from textbooks hate material and ensure today's schoolchildren are groomed into liberal, democratic, secular Pakistanis, harbouring hatred for none and love for all"

Can we expect something like this from India/Hindu hater Pakistan? Never

India shouldn't be alarmed about these. After all this has been going on for decades. As long as hatred against jews and christians is maintained it sure will lead to Pak's self destruction. One can imagine a violent jihadi pakistan some generations from now being destroyed by another evil called America. Let our future generation watch this unfold.

Swaminathan
Chennai, India
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
14
NITS,
Have you no sense of shame? Are you born to humans? Your talk is nothing but lies, lies & more lies. When were we taught hate in our schools against Pakistan? We were taught history, like China war & Pakistan wars declared against India. Idiots like you don't even know the difference between history & fiction. What Paki students were taught is hatred against Hindus based on a fiction that we were after them. We never gave them a reason to fear us. It is the Paki rulers who keep creating fears in the minds of their masses to justify their military budgets & also coverup their personal hatred against India.

As for your stinking comments on RSS, it is full of garbage. RSS only talks about defending the nation from the onslaught of mullahs, Paki terrorism & preserving our nationhood. Every country in the world has the right to demand the minority community to join the mainstream. Even USA where you live remains a christian country and the minority community here adjusts their lives to join the mainstream. It's the same in Europe, middle east & even Pakistan. But for idiots like you, if RSS advocates the same, it's not acceptable. It's one thing if RSS advocates war against Pakistan to grab their resources or land or whatever but it is completely justified if it (RSS) calls for punishing Pakistan for it's acts of terror against India. What could you possibly see wrong in that? It is sad that there millions of scoudrals like you in India who do not understand the difference between defending a nation from cultural & terror attacks from unlilaterally going to wars for enriching our lives & economy & political power. Either you are a hardcore rightwing mullah fundamentalist or one of those converts who are stupid enough to think that they gained some status by conversions.
Indian Secularist
Chicago, United States
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
13
There is no need for us to get worked up about this.
Just remember the Bush line - 'Bring it On'

Let them think 1 muslim soldier = 10 hindu soldier or for that matter jews or christians.

How long can it go on? couple of more years ??They are already in the international pig house.

While India will be developed after some years they will still be supplying maids/servants to Arab mens for dancing. while their young men will be dancing with virgin girls in heaven after blowing themselves up.

We have not outsourced our national defence to free lancers/suicide brigade coming out of religious schools.

So why worry? let me them go ahead, at this rate the whole pakistan will be like a mughal mushira(with qwalis and all that)in another 10 years. Then we can enjoy there with our powerful rupee.
Free Speech
Bihar, India
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
12
That is deplorable.But what about India?History text books are written to enflame anti Muslim feelings among the youth.I am an Indian Muslim and I have undergone this experience in my school days.That too in TamilNadu!Muslims kings were projected as opperessors of Hindus.In that case why there is no word about the wars between the (Aryan inspired)Hindu kings and the Jain kings in the south?Why there is no word on the annihilation of the Buddist religion in India.How come many famous Hindu temples have Buddist architecture?Muslims can face the truth but can the Hindu fanatics?
nasar
Raleigh, USA
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
11
there is a flip side to the coin.
are we also not taught to hate pakistan and believe that they are devils and wrong on every issue? does not RSS brainwash hindus against christians, muslims and other minorities? the only difference is that they do it in a subtle way...giving birth to semi-demons like adi! look at this moron preaching to others.
nits
nashville, USA
Oct 05, 2005 12:00 AM
10
Mr.Shukoor: "Now, history books show muslims as 'invaders' in a peace loving country. " - Were they peace-loving pilgrims? Like Osama? Like the 9/11 perpetrators? Ok, we should change our textbooks NOW - because Shukoor says so, we should. Otherwise....
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Oct 04, 2005 12:00 AM
9
I have and they dont have the contents you mentioned
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 04, 2005 12:00 AM
8
Viewing Moslems as "invaders" is not the same thing as hating Hindus just for being Hindus. If Hindus in the past invaded Saudi Arabia and demolished/desecrated shrines there, I think modern Hindus could live with the smattering of resentment such an action would inevitably produce. What's important is that they don't do it again. You are equating the unequatable when comparing India with Pakistan. Pakistan as a country has an ideology which *glorifies* conquest and lionizes conquerors. That is not the same thing as merely stating the facts of history, such as the Moslem invasion of India in the medieval era.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 04, 2005 12:00 AM
7
Kiran,

I can see that you have nt checked on Indian history text books such as written by NCERT yourself.
Shukoor PS
Bangalore, India
Oct 04, 2005 12:00 AM
6
Dear ¨shukoor¨,
Dont bullshit in this forum. Indian history books are easily available for people to verify.
Kiran
Hyderabad, India
Oct 04, 2005 12:00 AM
5
Abhishek,

History books have all been changed after the BJP came to power. Now, history books show muslims as 'invaders' in a peace loving country.
Shukoor PS
Bangalore, India
Oct 03, 2005 12:00 AM
4
I watched a documentary on HBO last night about Islamic extremists in Lebanon and Pakistan. Interestingly the documentary focused specially on young girls in madrassas in Pakistan. It is truly sad that young girls are brainwashed with so much hatred and such regressive ideas in this day and age. I also found it very alarming that religion penetrates every thought and action of these young girls to such an extent.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Oct 03, 2005 12:00 AM
3
Pakistan was born to hate India. Again it is an Islamic state. This slave state of Saudi Arabia is continuing its Islamic tradition of hatred for India which is a secular state.

Pakistan is the most evil state of our time. The way it decimated the minorities will put the Nazis to shame.
ahmed
Lucknow, India
Oct 02, 2005 12:00 AM
2
Mister Shakoor can you give the source of your information please. I will be glad to know from where you got this shit, is it NCERT approved, which education system, which board where???.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Oct 02, 2005 12:00 AM
1
In concept, what is taught in Indian classrooms is not very different from what is taught in Pakistan.
Some of what is taught to children in our sub continent as a whole has to be seen to be believed. But it is well hidden - little children dont complain about what is fed to them. But little do we realise the tremendous impact it has on the psyche of a future generation.

For eg., ( in an Indian classroom),

Class IV
"The Hindus of India provided all facilities to the muslims who left for Pakistan. But the muslims looted the Hindus in Pakistan with both hands and they attacked their caravans, buses and railway trains. Therefore, about one million Hindus were martyred on their way to India.

The Muslims treated the population of India very badly. They set fire to their houses and butchered them.

The religion of muslims did not teach them good things, muslims did not respect women."

This paragragh could well be taken from a fourth standard text book in India.
As can all the other paragraphs as well.

If we want sustained peace, the two nations should negotiate with each other to delete such ridiculous teachings from school books.

The Siachen Glacier and the reamining disputes would follow automatically.


Shukoor PS
Bangalore, India
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