Sandeep Adhwaryu
Opinion
Inglish As She's Spoke
In a world growing smaller and an India growing bigger, English is the currency of the future. Even insecure vernacular chauvinists can't deny us our due.
Two reports appeared recently in my newspaper that left me bewildered. The first said the Karnataka government still hasn't decided to rescind its ban on English in primary schools despite huge popular pressure. The second—a Karnataka minister, after a busy visit to China, announced that "members of the standing committee of the Jiangsu Provincial People's Congress wanted the help of the Karnataka government in teaching English in its primary schools." This was in pursuit of its objective to make every Chinese literate in English by the 2008 Olympics.
 
 
In Inglish, for the first time in our history, we have something acceptable to the masses and the classes, to the North and the South.
 
 
The contrast between India's ambivalence and China's certainty is always instructive.

It does seem bizarre that a state whose capital is Bangalore—the symbol of India's success in the global economy—and which derives its competitive advantage from its mastery of the English language, should remain hostage to the insecurities of vernacular chauvinists. This, after more than 15 years when it first banned English from primary schools in the late '80s. Meanwhile, Bengal and Gujarat, realising their mistake, have gone back to teaching English after discovering they had created an unemployable generation.

I thought this debate was over, and English had won. But it seems many states, including Kerala and Karnataka, are still in a state of paralytic inaction, interminably discussing the language of school instruction. In a world where a quarter of the people already know the world language and where experts predict another half will be English literate within a generation, it's painful to see Indians—the envy of many countries for their English skills—being stopped in their tracks by vernacular Stalinists and their bogus arguments, telling parents, "You don't know what's good for your children. We do."

As for the Chinese, I try not to feel envious or fearful. While I am confident they'll win many medals at the next Olympics, I don't think learning English will be as easy.
 
 
As Urdu was transported to the Deccan, so is Inglish riding on the coat-tails of Bollywood across India. So, is Inglish our 'conquest of English'?
 
 
While I can't help but admire their ambition, I console myself with the thought that India has been spared their earlier ones at social engineering, the most prominent being the Cultural Revolution. A Chinese engineer, in India to improve his software and English skills, coincidentally told me that China's ambitions with regard to English are not only connected with their superpower ambitions but are also driven by envy over India's facility with the same.

I sometimes wonder what language Indians will be speaking 50 years on. Looking beyond the horizon of current events, two trends look likely to dominate our linguistic future. One, a rapid spread of English across India, including the aspiring lower middle-classes; the second—the unprecedented popularity of Hindi, even in the South, thanks to blockbuster Hindi movies and the universal appeal of Hindi TV programmes like Indian Idol and Kaun Banega Crorepati.

At the intersection of these two trends is the fashionable collision of two languages. It's called Hinglish, but should in fact be called Inglish because it is increasingly pan-India's street language. Mixing English with our mother tongues has been going on for generations, but what is different this time around is that Inglish has become both the aspirational language of the lower and middle middle-classes and the fashionable language of drawing rooms of the upper and upper middle-classes. Similar attempts in the past were considered downmarket, contemptuously put down by snob brown sahibs. This time, Inglish is the stylish language of Bollywood, of FM radio and of national advertising. Advertisers, in particular, have been surprised by the terrific resonance of slogans such as, 'Life ho to aise', 'Josh machine', and 'Dil mange more'. Radio Mirchi has found the same adoring response to: 'Ladki ko mari line, girlfriend boli, I'm fine!'

Unlike my generation, today's young are more relaxed about English and think it a skill, like learning Windows.No longer does it fly the British or US flags, except in the insecure minds of the Left or the RSS. Bollywood, TV, advertising, cricket—indeed, all our mass culture is conspiring to take English to the bazaar. Gone too is the ranting against English by swadeshi intellectuals. Every Indian mother knows that English is the passport to her child's future—to a job, to entry into the middle class—and this is why English medium schools are mushrooming in city slums and villages alike. English has quietly become an Indian language 50 years after the British left our shores. David Dalby, who measures these things in Linguasphere, predicts that by 2010 India will have the largest number of English speakers in the world. Thus, one of the cheerful things happening in India is the quiet democratising of English.

In Inglish, perhaps for the first time in our history, we may have found a language common to the masses and classes, acceptable to the South and North. We are used to thinking of India in dualisms—upper vs lower caste, urban vs rural, India vs Bharat—but the saddest divide, I always thought, is between those who know English and those "who are shut out" (the phrase of a deaf friend, Ursula Mistry, in Mumbai, who deeply feels the tragedy of those who can't participate). The exciting thing about Inglish is it may even unite Indians in the same way as cricket. We may thus be at a historic moment. One day, I expect, we will also find Inglish's Mark Twain, the writer who liberated Americans to write as they thought. Salman Rushdie gave Indians permission to write in English, but Midnight's Children is not written in Inglish, alas! And this is not surprising for the young Indian mind was not decolonised until the reforms of the 1990s.

What exactly is Inglish is not easy to define, and needs empirical research. Is its base English or our vernacular bhashas? If it's the latter, then it is similar to Franglais, the fashionable concoction of mostly French with English words thrown in that drives purists mad. Or is its support English, with an overlay of bhasha? I think it is both. For the upwardly mobile lower middle class, it is bhasha mixed with some English words, such as what my newsboy speaks: "Mein aaj busy hoon, kal bill doonga definitely." Or my bania's helper: "Voh mujhe avoid karti hai!" For the classes, on the other hand, the base is definitely English, as in: 'Hungry, kya?' or 'Careful yaar, voh dangerous hai!' The middle middle class seems to employ an equal combination, as in Zee News' evening bulletin, "Aaj Middle East mein peace ho gayi!" Three Hindi words and three of English.

In contrast to this vibrant new language, the old 'Indian English' of our headlines is an anachronism: 'Sleuth nabs man', 'Miscreants abscond', and 'Eve-teasers get away'. In the ultimate put-down, Professor Harish Trivedi of Delhi University contemptuously says, "Indian English? It's merely incorrect English." Inglish has parallels with Urdu, which became a naturalised subcontinental language and flourished mainly after the decline of Muslim rule. Originally, the camp argot of the country's Muslim conquerors, Urdu was forged from a combination of the conqueror's imported Farsi and local bhashas. As Urdu was transported to the Deccan, so is Inglish riding on the coat-tails of Bollywood across India.

So, is Inglish our "conquest of English" to use Rushdie's famous words? Or is it our journey to "conquer the world" as professor David Crystal, author of the Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language, puts it. He predicts that Indian English will become the most widely spoken variant based on India's likely economic success in the 21st century and the sheer population size. "If 100 million Indians pronounce an English word in a certain way," he says, "this is more than Britain's population—so, it's the only way to pronounce it." If British English was the world language at the end of the 19th century after a century of imperialism, and American English is the world language today after the American 20th century, then the language of the 21st century might well be Inglish or at least an English heavily influenced by India (and China, to a lesser extent).

So what will happen to our mother tongues? This is the insecurity behind the ancient, paralysing debate over teaching English in primary schools. The vernacular chauvinists believe our languages and cultures will die under the mesmerising dominance of the 'power language'. They point to Gaelic and Welsh, which were eradicated by English. Vernacularists think we have made a pact with the devil—fluency in English gives us a competitive advantage, losing our mother tongue impoverishes our personality.

"Can English satisfy the imaginative hunger of the masses?" asks Kannada writer U.R. Ananthamurthy.

"Give me a break," retorts the poet Arvind Mehrotra. "The masses don't have imaginative hungers, and who is satisfying them anyway?"

Ananthamurthy proposed to the Kerala government that 'kacca' or spoken English be taught from the 1st standard, with the medium of instruction being Malayalam. I don't agree. Unless you acquire the nuances of English before 10, you are disadvantaged. But I have confidence in our culture. When Indians embrace English in order to win in the global market place, they don't turn their back on their mother tongue. While English empowers us, our mother tongue continues to give us identity. I agree with Ananthamurthy that in our big cities, we retain our 'home tongues', while using a 'street tongue' and working in the 'power tongue'.

In a wonderful essay, Cosmopolitan and Vernacular in History, Sheldon Pollock, a Sanskrit professor at the University of Chicago, says our vernaculars were also 'created' and are not primordial, as vernacular nationalists would like to believe. The vernacularisation of Sanskrit began in the 9th century as Kannada and Telugu became the languages of literary and political expression in the courts of the Rashtrakutas and Chalukyas. Hindi was fashioned by Sufi poets in principalities like Orcha and Gwalior in the 15th century. Bearers of these languages were the elite and not the people, as Gramsci and Bakhtin made us believe. Our consciousness of a 'mother tongue' didn't even appear until the Europeans arrived. Languages are evolving things, we ought not to do too much social engineering. Vernacular nationalism is bad because it goes against the people's wishes. Instead of encouraging them by creating more English teachers, nationalists thwart their democratic aspirations. Why not celebrate potential gains, instead of worrying about phantom losses. Why not celebrate cool Inglish!




(Das is the author of India Unbound and other books.)
 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
May 18, 2005 12:00 AM
178
I dont argue too much here. I myself a product of english medium schools in cities. i fully understand the disadvantage of learning science and engineering in an alien language. I feel if an american kid is made to learn science and technology in hindi from childhood instead of his mother tongue english how that small kids pain would be. Somehow we were destined to be like what we are now. The next step would be to become a vassal state to USA. Lets call ourselves as East America or east satrap of america. That will solve all problems instead of breaking our heads here which langauge we should teach our kids. As a kid i felt lot of pain with english which is alien to me. Looks like everyone wants to feel that pain and pinch instead of having a happy and joyful child hood. Good luck guys. have fun with english.
eyunni
new york, United States
May 17, 2005 12:00 AM
177
Eyunni writes:

>>Finally it boils down to this point as my survey indicates: Indians due to their medium of instruction in english did not have great understanding of what they study. With that the confidence level is low.

For it to be true, there has to be a significant difference between English and non-english medium students in confidence and understanding. My experience is that those who are taught in other mediums of instructions have even less confidence and less understanding. My point is a systemic weakness in our understaning of what is the purpose of education cannot be laid at the feet of medium of instruction in English. The English Medium schools at least take the educational enterprise seriously even if not always executed competently.
Old Mac
???, United States
May 17, 2005 12:00 AM
176
Old Mac wrote:"Early this week, Patna University pro-vice-chancellor Dr S. Ehteshamuddin refused the application of a student with a masters in surgery who couldn't spell 'controller of examinations'. It is routine for Patna University proctor Dr Kritesh Prasad to correct applications too. Once, annoyed by a flawed application, he asked an English honours student to spell 'Shakespeare', 'principal' and 'sincerely'. What he got was 'Sexpeer', 'principle' and 'seriously'!"

That shows that englilsh honours student could not get the gist of what english is and what ever he leart is just an eye wash or a sort of ritual to pass exams.

Its important to see if that master's guy in surgery can perform his task effectively than examining his english spellings.

I am not surprised by that article as its a common sense that anyone who studies in an alien language fails in all aspects both in the matter and in language.

I am not pessimistic about my views of india. I am saying what I observe. And ridiculously people in india didnot want to see the problems of engllish medium education. So I dont see great changes in near future in the attitude or development in india. Thats obvious when u compare the research output of all countries in the world.

Instead of me telling here why dont all u guys or govt of india consult linguistic experts or psychologists or anyother behavioural scientists or any specialised people who have insight in these aspects and come up with the results. And follow their advice instead of telling what ever they feel here. I did a survey and I am speaking not just writing here for arguement sake or talking according to my whims.
eyunni
new york, United States
May 17, 2005 12:00 AM
175
OLDMAC: I agree with you. Communication skills are required to express ones ideas. If they can express in their mother tongue and have a good command in one's mother tongue english should not be a problem. I never said that one should not know english or be a mother tongue chaunist. One who express good in his mother tongue will not find it difficult to express in english coz he is exposed to english from early stages of life with regard to music, novels, songs, news etc., But ultimately the ATTITUDE AND BODY LANGUAGE are very important and confidence which someone get with right attitude and body language makes him communicate effectively with any audience in the world.

Finally it boils down to this point as my survey indicates:
Indians due to their medium of instruction in english did not have great understanding of what they study. With that the confidence level is low. So even though they claim they know good english and read write and speak english fluently and say that they dont have absolutely no hindrance to understanding english their body language and attitude does not say so coz of low confidence of poor understanding. Where as a russian or a polish who is poor in english but good in his subject coz of his mothertongue based instruction boils with confidence and with his broken english mesmerises the audience. Thats my observation. My survey results say that those indians who has their education in their mother tongue faired well in all aspects of their life. Ofcourse english medium educated folks of india snub them and shatter their confidence. Thats temporary i guess. They shoot back coz of their confidence
eyunni
new york, United States
May 17, 2005 12:00 AM
174
Repost-corrected

Eyunni writes:

>>>OldMac wrote
>>>Language skills come and improve only through constant usuage. Being "aware of English words and grammar" isn't enough for language proficiency. In order to innovate, you need to cooperate with others globally. This requires communication skills.

>>------You cannot cut the cake and eat it too. >>Developing communication skills is one thing and having mastery on the subject and becoming innovative is another thing. Indians chose to develop comminication skills and gone easy on innovative skills. Result is they dont have both!!!

Most people believe that people first think of an idea and then they find words to express them. However, I believe that you are thinking in finding the right word and rejecting the wrong word. Therefore, the idea of innovation and creativity is inextricably boundup with language skills.

>>Old Mac wrote:
>>English is the lingua franca of such cooperation.

>>English is lingua franca of english speaking european ancestral countries and english men enslaved countries like India. So no wonder the frog in the well Old Mac thinks its linguaa franca.

Most scientific journals are published in English and therefore it is the medium of exchange of ideas and innovations in almost all significant fields. Since innovation requires knowledge of state of the art in any field, then English is necessary to know it and improve on it. It is essentially a democratc notion. If you can communicate an idea to a large audience in English then you might have an impact on the field regardless if you are black, brown, yellow or pink.

>>Anyways I am not expecting much from India and Indians in general except quarrelling for everthing and unable to understand what to do and how to do. No wonder we are poor managers, planners and executers. And lets be like this so that someone can rule us either directly or indirectly. We are that way and lets be that way. Thats our destiny.

Such fatalistic pessimism!! Its all fixable, if we just get off our asses.

Actually, Indians are excellent abstract thinkers. The problem is the minds get stuck at abstraction stage. Rarely can they transform an abstract idea into a concrete form and then plan it, communicate it and execute it.

I agree about the "Too Many Chiefs And Not Enough Indians" syndrome. However, it flows from inability to communicate therefore inability to inspire. Indians communicate as though they are talking only to themselves. They don't understand communication is a social activity requiring them to enter audience's world and mind. Media, including Outlook, is a prime example of such poor communication.
Old Mac
???, United States
May 17, 2005 12:00 AM
173
Here's an excerpt from a HindustanTimes story that sheds light on this discussion:

"Early this week, Patna University pro-vice-chancellor Dr S. Ehteshamuddin refused the application of a student with a masters in surgery who couldn't spell 'controller of examinations'. It is routine for Patna University proctor Dr Kritesh Prasad to correct applications too. Once, annoyed by a flawed application, he asked an English honours student to spell 'Shakespeare', 'principal' and 'sincerely'. What he got was 'Sexpeer', 'principle' and 'seriously'!"
Old Mac
???, United States
May 17, 2005 12:00 AM
172
Eyunni writes:

>>>OldMac wrote
>>>Language skills come and improve only through constant usuage. Being "aware of English words and grammar" isn't enough for language proficiency. In order to innovate, you need to cooperate with others globally. This requires communication skills.

>>------You cannot cut the cake and eat it too. >>Developing communication skills is one thing and having mastery on the subject and becoming innovative is another thing. Indians chose to develop comminication skills and gone easy on innovative skills. Result is they dont have both!!!

Most people believe that people first think of an idea and then they find words to express them. However, I believe that you are thinking in finding the right word and rejecting the wrong word. Therefore, the idea of innovation and creativity is inextricably boundup with language skills.

>>Old Mac wrote:
>>English is the lingua franca of such cooperation.

>>English is lingua franca of english speaking european ancestral countries and english men enslaved countries like India. So no wonder the frog in the well Old Mac thinks its linguaa franca.

Most scientific journals are published in English and therefore it is the medium of exchange of ideas and innovations in almost all significant fields. Since innovation requires knowledge of state of the art in any field, then English is necessary to know it and improve on it. It is essentially a democratc notion. If you can communicate an idea to a large audience in English then you might have an impact on the field regardless if you are black, brown, yellow or pink.

>>Anyways I am not expecting much from India and Indians in general except quarrelling for everthing and unable to understand what to do and how to do. No wonder we are poor managers, planners and executers. And lets be like this so that someone can rule us either directly or indirectly. We are that way and lets be that way. Thats our destiny.

Such fatalistic pessimism!! Its all fixable, if we just get off our asses.

Actually, Indians are excellent abstract thinkers. The problem is the minds get stuck at abstraction stage. Rarely can they transform an abstract idea into a concrete form and then plan it, communicate it and execute it.

I agree about the "Too Many Chiefs And Not Enough Indians" syndrome. However, it flows from inability to communicate therefore inability to inspire. Indians communicate as thought they are talking only to themselves. They don't understand communication is a social activity requiring them to enter audience's world and mind. Media, including Outlook, is a prime example of such poor communication.
Old Mac
???, United States
May 17, 2005 12:00 AM
171
OldMac wrote
Language skills come and improve only through constant usuage. Being "aware of English words and grammar" isn't enough for language proficiency. In order to innovate, you need to cooperate with others globally. This requires communication skills.

------You cannot cut the cake and eat it too. Developing communication skills is one thing and having mastery on the subject and becoming innovative is another thing. Indians chose to develop comminication skills and gone easy on innovative skills. Result is they dont have both!!!

Old Mac wrote:
English is the lingua franca of such cooperation.

English is lingua franca of english speaking european ancestral countries and english men enslaved countries like India. So no wonder the frog in the well Old Mac thinks its linguaa franca.

Anyways I am not expecting much from India and Indians in general except quarrelling for everthing and unable to understand what to do and how to do. No wonder we are poor managers, planners and executers. And lets be like this so that someone can rule us either directly or indirectly. We are that way and lets be that way. Thats our destiny.
eyunni
new york, United States
May 13, 2005 12:00 AM
170
Eyunni writes:

>>Seshadri: English should be taught as a languge from childhood so that the kid is aware of the enlgish words and grammer. But medium of instruction should be in his mother tongue. That is wonderful. Most of the countries including china are having plans to follow this method so that productive innovators will come into existance instead of a crap or a half baked products or technicians

Language skills come and improve only through constant usuage. Being "aware of English words and grammar" isn't enough for language proficiency. In order to innovate, you need to cooperate with others globally. This requires communication skills. English is the lingua franca of such cooperation.
Old Mac
???, United States
May 13, 2005 12:00 AM
169
Seshadri: English should be taught as a languge from childhood so that the kid is aware of the enlgish words and grammer. But medium of instruction should be in his mother tongue. That is wonderful. Most of the countries including china are having plans to follow this method so that productive innovators will come into existance instead of a crap or a half baked products or technicians.
eyunni
new york, United States
May 12, 2005 12:00 AM
168
Hi Indranil: I agree with you. Ya preserving the english words and discussing and understnding the concepts of science technology economics and commerce in the mother tongue should be ideal at this stage as we are not rich and powerful. I did the same. I used to translate the english books into my mother tongue. Most of my friends hired tutors in their school days. The tutor is precicely a translator. He reads the english sentences and explain them to his pupils in their mother tongue. And the student has the concepts in mother tongue and when he writes exams he translates the concepts which are there in his mind in his mother tongue into english and puts on the paper in english.

Thats where whole energy goes. The student will be busy in translating while reading and writing. This restricts the free flow of natural, casual, uninhibited ideas which are required for a genuine invension which is wortwhile. You can compare what I am saying to a poetry. So ultimately three things happen for a student in india.
1) He ends up loosing interest in studies due to this never ending double translation work ie., while studying and while writing.
2) Because of social pressure and prestige or genuine interest he succeeds in double translation with lot of pain. But his inventing capability drastically come down due to that pain. He somehow meets the ends to survive. Result is he becomes more of a technician than a genuine engineer or a scientist or a doctor which means he will not invent anything new but confirms what is already discovered. Thats the technician job. Indian software industry is the perfect example of technician jobs. Now BPO and KPO.
3)Some of genius and what we call free thinkers by nature. English will not stop them from inventing them. But they would be say 10 or 25 percent more productive if they have their education in mothertongue and write exams in mothertongue. But their number is too less to matter.
So bulk of the indians with english medium education either loose interest and do some odd jobs or by some hook or cook get a degree with good score and become technicians.

Regarding not inventing new terms for science and technology. Long back we lost that habit. You think words like proton, neutron electron in indian languages would be funny.

What about words like "Drag-on" (as the creature dragon) car, bicycle etc look like. For me they are funny too coz those words do not really convey the meaning of the subject perfectly.\

You are complaining because u are used to english technical words and your mind finds it difficult to imagine or invent new words in your language.

In old indian mathematical texts and in this century also many mathematicians used their mothertongue alphabets in the equations instead of a, b, c and greek alphabets like a, aa, e ee etc. My grandfather writes mathematics equations in his mother tongue.
Anyways, we lost the race to europeans in modern sciences. So as u said better use their terminologies rather than invent our own terms coz we are just incapable at this stage.
eyunni
new york, United States
May 08, 2005 12:00 AM
167
Thusspake (zarasthura) writes:

>>A terrifically bad understanding of the English language could be a hindrance to promotion, but a passable fluency is generally enough to rise up the levels, if you made the mark otherwise.

I would like to add the nuance that unless you can truly "communicate" (more than just speaking), employers are not going to put you before clients. Being in front of clients and selling ideas to them what makes you rise up the ranks. At which point, technical knowledge becomes less and less important.
Old Mac
???, United States
May 08, 2005 12:00 AM
166
Misplaced Credit

It is an amusingly common presumption among people who owe their success to their fluency in English (and sometimes little else), that this is exactly the path taken by all upwardly mobile Indians.

I worked in the Indian software industry(probably India's only confirmed international success) for some time. Most of my colleagues understood English quite well, but few of them could be described as fluent while speaking. It was obvious that they were mentally translating from their mother tongue to English. They probably improved their English skills with time, but it was definitely not what they owed their success to. A terrifically bad understanding of the English language could be a hindrance to promotion, but a passable fluency is generally enough to rise up the levels, if you made the mark otherwise. Most important was a strong work ethic and willingness to put in crazy work hours to meet deadlines when required.

Knowing English is an advantage for Indians, but to say that ‘unless you acquire the nuances of English before 10, you are disadvantaged’ is absurd. If there is a quick ticket today to success in India, it is an engineering degree. An engineer from an average institution in India often has more to look forward to a humanities student from the best institutions, with all his English skills. This imbalance is unfortunate, but real.
thusspake
San Francisco, United States
Apr 30, 2005 12:00 AM
165
Eyunni:
My continental friend has replied..... and both of us are correct.....

Generally Europeans use same scientific terms but some scientific terms may vary a little bit.

My friend has given me a specific example, I cut and paste it to you guys....
''....the specific language stamps its own mark on
the work, but the root is the same (e.g. electron in catalan is electro, electron in spanish, etc...). There are others that do not change at all, like Bremsstruhlung....''

As european languages have a lot of overlap, then
if an english scientist has discovered and named something (the names given were used to be a mixture of greek and latin), then another european language will have a word syononymous to it....
Hence electron may be called electro....
but the tendency is to keep it same.... so even if I do not spanish language...., and I am at a conference... and the spaniard gives a talk in english..., I can weed out the heavy accent and the rest of it and can follow what the fellow has to say... because he will use mathematical language, and the particular phenomena will be reffered in a single scientific term.....
Have I made myself clear....? That is the reason, I criticised the approach of science text books in bangla.... who will cook a strange term for electron, proton, photon etc.....
I am of the view, there is no need to do so.....
Let me give an example ....'if an electron and positron collides, they anhilate and produce two Gamma ray photons...'
Keep the terms electron, positron and Gamma and photon, and change the rest in bengali or tamil or gujrati or what ever......, use simple day to day language..... and you will not need english to learn science....
Learn english as an language in school, if you have to learn english....that's it...!

You know what? I studied in english medium school.... followed english text books, wrote exams in english through out my carrier as a student....
And when we used to discuss scientific theory or a problem... we used to do the following.... that is discuss in bengali... keep the terms international.... All the bengali science students
without fail did the same... and I guess this is also true for all the other non-bengali fellows....

So my point of view is that, institutionalise what
we generally do in practice, i.e., instruct in vernacular, keep the scientific terms............

The advantage is multifold.....firstly a general student do not have to remove the cobwebs of english to understand the subject....., on the top of that you are removing the peculiar complex our system instills in the minds of the students---namely inferiority/superiority complex
(as the case may be) for not knowing or knowing english.....

Not only in science this could be worked out for other subjects too... but I am not an expert on other subjects to say how to do it...
Indranil
Kolkata, India
Apr 30, 2005 12:00 AM
164
Abhishek:
>>This is precisely the reason why india will adopt to english. The forces of history have preordained for us to learn english.<<

I guess we will only agree to disagree on this issue, anyway, the point I want to make is,
if so many languages have naturally evolved in India, isn't it natural to make an effort to make all of them flourish? History hasn't preordained us to learn english.....It is typically the attitude of the ruling elite of India around 1947 that has produced this situation. Somehow or other the elite of India (by that I mean higher class and middle class of India) has a slavish mind. 200 years of colonial rule, has left its mark in our psyche......

Even such slavish attitude towards english for the last 50-60 years hasn't produced even 20% of indians speaking decent english....
Even many PhDs working abroad, cannot speak one sentence correctly. And mind it I have no hang ups about the accent one speaks..... Even these guys takes pride in our prowess in english.... It is such a joke!
It means that how much we pat our back, english will remain a foreign language....
And observation of Mr Das (the author of the original article), that when his bania's helper says '' Voh mujhe avoid karti hai...''. it is a proof of India moving towards inglish....nothing can be further from truth..... It simply means
that fellow is in contact with people who speaks a lot of english,.... and have just picked up the word avoid... or similar such words...
The maid servant in our house in Kolkata cannot speak english or doesn't use english word with bangla (with the obviuos exceptions of chair or table or fan etc), even if she is living in kolkata for a long time, simply because we extensively use bangla in our home. We are not bengali fundamentalist, its just we use bangla with bengalis....

Except for the very rich urbanites or some section of Indians who speaks english at home, 99% indians grows up speaking vernacular. The best medium of education is ofcourse the language the fellow speaks.
And talking about language problem of India, it can be solved in a proper environment......
but that is part of a different discussion.
Indranil
Kolkata, India
Apr 30, 2005 12:00 AM
163
Folks..after much trouble, I am back. Interesting discussion so far. I would agree with both Indra and Eyunni. Much effort was put in by 19th century academicians, lwriters, visionaries to incoporate Science in Indian languages. I am aware of efforts in bengal (sure it was done specially in The south, and Punjab as well).

There were regular magazines published on science, rationalism. The scientific words were made of "sanskrtic" origin, so it can be replicated else where (almost all Indian languages has deep relationship with Sanskrit). Even latest printing technology was used to further the spread of science, and writing popular books on Science, rationality for students.

The family of Satyajit Ray (4 generations now) played a pioneering role in that. His grandfather (Upendra Kishore Roy choudhury) wrote many articles based on Science, Published with fantastic photographs so those become popular on his own press. In late 19th Century, he wrote the natural Science, or even Darwin's Evolution theory for Kids. Those were printed on superior papers, with half-tone Photos (at that time, it was high-technology).

These people were really genoius. They they sucked every bit of good-juice from the West, in every stream, and made them available to local people in Indian Language. It was phenomenol achievement.

I agree with Eyunni, that those efforts have become rusty. However, with the availablity of Computerised technology, Software, We are seeing a huge upsurge in regional language. We sure have many miles to go to make education available to everybody. But we have a very rich past history of last 200 years on that. Hope, with little bit of prudent economic policy, we will be able to free enough fund for universal primary education.

Thanks
Minu.Chatterji1
Kolkata, India
Apr 30, 2005 12:00 AM
162
No language is homogeneous..... but evidently india has more number of languages than say Europe, and much varied than European counterpart...

This is precisely the reason why india will adopt to english. The forces of history have preordained for us to learn english.

I will just say that.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Apr 29, 2005 12:00 AM
161
Indranil: I appreciate your attitude and insight. Yes european countries like india have different dialects of same language. English itself is a germanic language so u will see many similarities in them. But latino languages have different scientific terms but i guess they know the english terms aswell. I am not saying that they lift english words 100 percent. But they adopt engllish words to some extent. But i have seen russians having different terminologies. Lets say the word gene. Its derived from some word which means to give birth like generate, genital etc and our own janani, janata, jana, janaka, janma in sanskrit. all these words have a same meaning ie., to give birth. Dont go by spelling in gene and jana go by the sound. There is no wonder gene is the right term used in science to day.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 29, 2005 12:00 AM
160
Abhishek, I will not enter the debate of indian response to invasion, or christian-hindu-muslim conversion embroglio.....
But I would like to correct one piece of information you gave,
>> About your concerns of indians not learning in there mother tongue. You are right we are at a disadvantage lingually vis-a-vis nations like France, Germany or Japan. These nations have a homogeneous language. You goto any part of france, germany or japan they will have a single dialect and language<<

This is not true, the french the Belgians speak, and the french themselves speak has difference in dialect. Similarly the flemish is dutch but a different dialect of it.....
Tell this to a flemish, he will say no they are
original....
The german that say Bavaria speaks is different from that spoken in Saarland......
The Catalans speak different dialect of spanish...

People around Milan speaks a different dialect than say Sicily....

If you compare with Irish and English it is really different....and now think of the size of Britain?

I asked one my Irish friend to say some simple statement in Irish and then convert it to english,
to my surprise it was completely different....

Not only Georgian language is different from Russiam,
even their script is completely different from russian.... and think of that, stalin was a georgian.....!!!!

No language is homogeneous..... but evidently india has more number of languages than say Europe, and much varied than European counterpart...
Indranil
Kolkata, India
Apr 29, 2005 12:00 AM
159
Eyunni:
>>However you mistook my message....<<

Sorry! I thought you wrote indian languages are not at par with other european languages....

However, I have my doubts when you write
>> Other europeans just dont take the english scientific word and substitituee in french or german. They have their team of linguistic experts who coin the terms in french...<<
First of all I didn't say, continental europeans take up english scientific words....I said scientists use the same scientific terms...
for example there is a type of radiaton called
bremmsstrahlung, which I guess is a german word...
everybody uses that.... be it english, german, french etc....similarly for synchrotron emission, inverse Compton etc....
These are technical terms which are not translated to each and every other language, if so, science will be in a big soop...
we would have real problem discussing science
with our continental or far east collaborators and adversaries....

Secondly I doubt there are linguistic experts who coins those term in french or what ever.....

Though I would agree, that generally linguists in advanced countries works harder and works with more insight than indian counter parts.....

Anyway, I will check this with my continental and far-east asian friends, whether they use different
scientific terms. I know they don't do it in research, else they would be in problem while workning with a guy like me.... but I will ask them whether they do it even upto the masters level or not.....
Indranil
Kolkata, India
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
158
>Walking away from the mythical $100 and the apocryphal bag of rice isn't a choice?

>>Evangelicaloonies from different sects who held a "dialogue" to prevent poaching on each others' flocks obviously decided that that was not a choice, which is why they included it among execrable evangelicaloonie practices (amongst themselves only, of course).

Non-responsive and incoherent, as expected. I suggest Midol and some hotpacks over your ovaries.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
157
Walking away from the mythical $100 and the apocryphal bag of rice isn't a choice?

Evangelicaloonies from different sects who held a "dialogue" to prevent poaching on each others' flocks obviously decided that that was not a choice, which is why they included it among execrable evangelicaloonie practices (amongst themselves only, of course).
Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
156
Raghu, still on the rag, states:

>>Poor Ole Jerk. Incapable of handling truth.

I am so confused with the truth. I don't know if I am the Massah or the slave. I guess I will be massah in the morning and the slave in the evening.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
155
Raghu, on the rag, writes:

>>Sure, evangalicaloonies are presenting informed choices. The choices are to accept Jesus F Christ as the only savour and to accept Jesus F Christ as the only saviour. The information is that you'll get $100 and a bag of rice for accepting either of these choices.

Walking away from the mythical $100 and the apocryphal bag of rice isn't a choice? Your beliefs have to be worth less than the $100/bag of rice in order for such a trade to occur.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
154
>>How many white Christian priests haven't molested children yet, given the demeaned nature of white Christian culture?

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?


I am not demeaning your white christian culture, I am only pointing out that it demeans itself, what with so many white Christian priests escaping retribution for their paedophilc transgressions.

Poor Ole Jerk. Incapable of handling truth.
Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
153
Tinkers Can you give me some really genuine work, not some biased work against RSS.

I know that there is lot of literature out there and the problem with them is that some are really biased and dont present the facts according to the way it should be.

I am generally very vary of marxist historians, they almost always have an idealogy and an agenda. Historians like Romila Thapar and Irfan Habib are an anathema to me. They are worse than VHP, RSS combined.

Anyways I will try to check out the book you have suggested. If you can give me some work written by post-modern historian or sociologists like Ashis Nandy, Partha Chatterjee, Madhu Kishwar or someone like that, not a secularist or marxist who have a definite agenda and want to just malign RSS. Because these guys are just hyperboles, they take an incident and stretch it like rubberband and create a very wrong impression. I want facts and data.

Regarding free choice in religion. I am totally against that. A person cannot be indoctrinated in the name of free choice. This is evangelical agenda which the hindu right is learning very. These evangelicals have no place now in india, they will be crushed from left, right and center.

Anyways but RSS wants a secular, hard, militaristic, hindu dominant state where a hard national policy can be implemented. And this is something which is totally wrong and i oppose it by all the means. Further this problem cannot be solved by the secular agenda. Infact the secular agenda gives RSS the strenght it needs. What we need is gandhi's agenda over here to oppose all these things. But alas Congress is sold out to evangelicals and islamists so how can we expect them to work for hindus and indians, no sir that wont happen.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
152
>If a culture can demean itself so easily, pointing such facts is a public service.

>>Righto.

>>How many white Christian priests haven't molested children yet, given the demeaned nature of white Christian culture?

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
151
>>Old Sack, insisting without a shred of evidence that adivasis and Dalits were somehow *forced* to go "Hindu" asks:
>>"However, unless you possess first hand information (things you have witnessed with your own eyes or activities you participated in) and unimpeachable veracity to recount facts, your testimony that they "freely chose" is meaningless."

>>I happen to have done fieldwork on this subject,

What kind of field work? Is your study published? What was the methodology of the study? Was the methodology verified? Is the data documented? Who paid for it? or did you personally finance it? Did you submit it for peer review? does the data still exist? Have the studies been replicated by others who are not related to you? Your conclusory statements have no persuasive value.

>>so yes, its all first hand. The choice was entirely FREE.

We will wait until we review the basis for such conclusions.

>>Also, years and years of research by PhDs at prestigious universities who have tracked the way in which MANY Dalits and adivasis not just recently but for about 75 years now, have participated in the agendas of the Hindu Right.

What are those prestigious studies? Sponsored and funded by whom? Were they specifically studying the question of free choice?

>>Flipping your own question back onto YOU - how do you know conversions to Christianity have never been forced?

I am willing to hear evidence on any specific allegations of forced conversions. If violence, threat to life or limb were used, then I will support criminal prosecution of the individuals using violence. Otherwise, you are left with your fevered imaginations.

>>You have even less of a case than I do because of the numerous, numerous histories of the Americas and the Caribbean and Africa that recount how anything from death to Dalit-like excommunication could be the result of believing anything other than what the colonizer insisted on...

Your opinions, interpretations and hallucinations are apocryphal and unpersuasive

>>Looks like you don't like your FREE CHOICE logic when something you don't like is chosen, eh?

The only thing it looks like is your are suffering from cranial-anal inversion (a/k/a head up your ass). Unlike you, I am willing to live with any results as long as the principle of people making their own choices, free of violence, threat to life or limb, is effectively operative.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
150
You are so naive. Chaddis like Min(now) don't want people to make informed choice of what they what they want to believe

Sure, evangalicaloonies are presenting informed choices. The choices are to accept Jesus F Christ as the only savour and to accept Jesus F Christ as the only saviour. The information is that you'll get $100 and a bag of rice for accepting either of these choices.
Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
149
Why don't you have Chaddi missionaries out there "correcting" it without violence or intimidation?

What a brilliant idea.

Wait. Let me guess your next line: "why don't you have a lot of white Hindu paedophile priests among you too?"

Its called battling ideas with ideas, a frequent phenomenon in civilized cultures.

They may have taught you at the evengelicaloonie seminary you went to for an "education" that prosylitism is "civilized" and is an "idea", but sane people think it is as much of an idea as, say, a fecalgram, and just as equally civilized.
Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
148
If a culture can demean itself so easily, pointing such facts is a public service.

Righto.

How many white Christian priests haven't molested children yet, given the demeaned nature of white Christian culture?
Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
147
>>..Its beyound my dignity to discuss issues where distorting, bad-mouthing others culture, religion is treated as a win, proof of "Christianity". I will simply ignore all your rants.

Its beyond your ability to discuss any issues. Given your bi-polar, manic-depression condition, I doubt very much you will be able ignore my postings. But I reserve the right to rip your asinine comments apart.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
146
Indranil: I appreciate your message. I am glad to know that in bengal sicentific work is written in bangla. However you mistook my message

You wrote: To answer your observation, that Indian languages are not adequate for scientific and techinical studies..... Well! once again you don't have to have a indian words for electrons, baryons, riemann invarience etc.... Even spanish, italians , and germans don't have different words for them.

All 25 indian languages are well structured and suitable for science, economics and commerce. Onlythat we are not updating it. We are lazy coz we just dont want to take pains and upgrade them and instead like a parasite fall on english coz its easy and already US and UK have done the job of upgrading.

Again you are wrong that spanish, german french guys use english scientific words. They appear to be like english words. But they are not. Since they are closely related you feel that way. Other europeans just dont take the english scientific word and substitituee in french or german. They have their team of linguistic experts who coin the terms in french. Dont think that they lift the english scientific terms and paste it in french. You guys have to visit europe and see how they do it. I have seen it. I am not writing coz i dont like english or something. I write what i perceive.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
145
Abhishek, check out Vijay Prashad's "Untouchable Freedom" published by Oxford University Press (India). You should find it in any OUP outlet. Its an excellent social history of Dalits in and around Delhi. One of the things it follows is how Balmikis participated in the Hindu Right's agenda very early on. A few other Dalit communities also did - can't remember the names right now.

Vijay Prashad is a Marxist by the way, before someone calls him "saffron".

As for the Bhils "converted" by the RSS in Gujarat anyway - they say - they have water, electricity, roads, the works - why shouldn't they "convert" - to RSS, Bajrang Dal - whatever!

FREE CHOICE at work.

As for what they are told to believe - that doesn't matter does it, as long as its FREELY CHOSEN. (!)
Tinkers
Philadelphia, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
144
Eyunni: Indian languages are quite developed. Most of these languages are quite old (not all ofcourse). Lots of literature was/is written in these languages. So the problem is not in these languages, rather on the peculiar political and economic set up of indian society. Even most of modern European lanuages had to break off from the omni presence of Latin, a few hundred years ago.

To answer your observation, that Indian languages are not adequate for scientific and techinical studies..... Well! once again you don't have to have a indian words for electrons, baryons, riemann invarience etc.... Even spanish, italians , and germans don't have different words for them.

One of the idiocy, I perceived in Bengal was that, in the Bangla text books for science they were cooking up strange words for these scientific terms! No one use these cooked up terms normally when one speaks. The reason being that, electrons, protons etc where discovered by european scientists, and they named them suitably according to their language, and we don't have any corrsponding terms for them. So don't cook up strange terms, live with what we have, but present the theory, or prove a theorem or what ever in vernacular. Science (and all other subjects too) is fruit of human knowledge, so advancement of science should also be based on past works.
And this dependence rules out such efforts of renaming all the scientific terms in various vernacular languages. This is the reason I said
a lot of workshop and research is needed to be done by academicians to write school, high school,
and university text books, in local languages.
Incidentally, I read a book written by an high energy physicist in kolkata (Prof. Palash Pal of SINP) about light, in bangla. The targeted readers were ofcourse high school students. The book was decently written without any compromise on the scientific content, and made a fluent reading.
Then there is an effort (also in Bengal) by Centre of space physics, which regularly publish popular science journal, where all the nuances of astrophysics and cosmology is presented in Bangla.
These examples are driven by entusiam of few individuals or few groups of scientists, and is not a general phenomena.
What I want to point out is, it is possible to produce text books in vernacular, but peculiar psyche of urban high/middle class prevents such entusiasm to spread through out the society.

I would like add further that, I also do not agree
with your observation that Indians are lazy....!
They are not! General Indians are not lazy they work day in and day out to make two ends meet.
Indian middle class is lazy, yes!
But why is Indian middle class lazy? Most of the Indian students and post docs who live in advanced societies are not, they do all the back breaking household works, and also do academics!
The answer is, house keepers or servants are very expensive in the west. Most of the people have jobs, so you don't find large reservoir of poor people who are willing to do these things, and even when they do, they will charge a salary which will enable them to live in their society.
In India, there is a steady supply of villagers to the cities, who cannot make two ends meet from their farming, and so they venture out to the cities, to make themselves available for daily house hold cores, so that urban sahibs and mem sahibs can afford to be lazy.
Again this lazyness in not endemic to Indian gene, it is conditioned by the Indian situation, lack of industrialization... there are simply not many jobs for 1 billion indians. And when some one observes Indians are lazy or indians are this or that.... what we actually refering to is indian middle class!!! The rest 70-80% is not even get mentioned!!!! Don't you find it amazing?
Well I find it so.....
Indranil
Kolkata, India
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
143
Tinker this is pretty interesting. I am deeply interested in knowing the methods of RSS in tribal areas. What they are doing??? How they are doing???. Are they using propoganda, is there any instrument of violence. Are they trying to create hatred???.

See it can be willingly done and still it can create a rift and teach intolerance against the other society or religion or culture, this will be totally unhindu. I am interested in this topic a lot. If RSS is doing a great job in these areas it will be a very happy thing for me because that will be great, but if they are trying to indoctrinate those people and trying to create a culture of hate against the other religion then it would be really very bad. Can you direct me to some research work or the PHD thesis that you are pointing to.

I would be really very indebted to you. Because this is one big thing which I want to know. I am always in doubt that whether this work is good or bad. The media is too biased to get any objective analysis out of it and attending one RSS shaka (as i occasionally do that) does not give you the whole picture it is a very small data point to draw conclusions.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
142
Old Sack, insisting without a shred of evidence that adivasis and Dalits were somehow *forced* to go "Hindu" asks:

"However, unless you possess first hand information (things you have witnessed with your own eyes or activities you participated in) and unimpeachable veracity to recount facts, your testimony that they "freely chose" is meaningless."

I happen to have done fieldwork on this subject, so yes, its all first hand. The choice was entirely FREE. Also, years and years of research by PhDs at prestigious universities who have tracked the way in which MANY Dalits and adivasis not just recently but for about 75 years now, have participated in the agendas of the Hindu Right.

Flipping your own question back onto YOU - how do you know conversions to Christianity have never been forced? You have even less of a case than I do because of the numerous, numerous histories of the Americas and the Caribbean and Africa that recount how anything from death to Dalit-like excommunication could be the result of believing anything other than what the colonizer insisted on...

Looks like you don't like your FREE CHOICE logic when something you don't like is chosen, eh?
Tinkers
Philadelphia, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
141
Kumar sometimes it is called ignorance is bliss. It doesnot drive a person towards insanity.

The more your compare the more you get confused. And confused regarding your faith and your beliefs is not all healthy. This does not mean that arguments and discussion should not be made but discussions to convert is something which will destroy the person him. It create a confusing personality. That is why I am basically against conversion, conversions by evangelicals or by RSS. RSS will pay the price for these conversions when the time will come. It will back fire on them and on hinduism also.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
140
>>That why they are also becoming smart, They will torment these missionaries, take over their churches, schools. Remember, what happened in Sickular Mulayam's Uttar Pradesh?

you are an impotent person. Bring it on, babe. Remember the old adage: Those who can do, those who can't just talk/threaten.

>>You will not be able to live in a society after demeaning their culture, and still expect tolerance in return. Its as simple as that.

If a culture can demean itself so easily, pointing such facts is a public service.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
139
>>Suppose, I now say, Jesus was Son of a *****, Christianity is a degenarted, perverted,pure & Racism homosexual faith..where Nuns sleep with Popes....and so on and so forth..That in your definition becomes battling with Ideas in a Civilized Cultures!! Where do you get these definitions?

You just said it under the guise of a "supposition." The world didn't change one iota. I get my definitions from a different place than you. Proof is my place doesn't confuse definitions between juvenile, comical and ineffective invective from ideas.

But I welcome you to try it.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
138
>>IF VHP GRAB HOLD OF THIS BOOK, THEY WILL BURN ALL CHURCHES IN INDIA.

Assuming VHP knows how to "grab hold" of and read books, does the rest of the country take a holiday in the carribean while Min(now)'s friends commit arson?

The victims of this arson will collect on insurance policies and the Chaddis will be back in the zoo scratching their heads and eating bananas.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
137
>>Bull shit. Outrageous. The history of Missionaries in India, and Asia for last 200 years has shown consistently, that they take help of twisted history, badmouth local culture, stigmatize them. Its simple racism.

Why don't you have Chaddi missionaries out there "correcting" it without violence or intimidation? Its called battling ideas with ideas, a frequent phenomenon in civilized cultures.

>>Man...If just one book written by Those missionaries are reprinted today...all of Churches will be blown out of India...People don;t know how devil these missionaries are.

You have any idea how many times you posted this opinion? Its lack of any persuasive value is not changed with sheer repetition.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
136
>>Interesting idea. So for Conversion to succeed, Normal Developmental works done in a society are to be stopped. Missionaries are using Naxalites in Tribal belt to Stop Govt. Development. That's what raised the alarm-bell amongst Marxists! Systemetically, developmental work is stopped by raising Human rights, environmental issues inspired by Missionaries. Medha Patkar sure understands it by now.

I have termed you psychotic and you prove it every time you post your incoherent ramblings.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
135
>>Yes because of insecurity and depression in their life due to family breakups and other upsets they cling to christ for sometime. Once they get stabilised with that they again become atheists.

You are retarded if you truly believe that.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
134
>>poor people in india who are majority to break away their small necessity driven communities and experiment on different religions and take up what is gratifying to them. Its for rich and midddle class in india and for people of advanced countries. Its a sort of luxury

Actually its the poor people who hold on to their beliefs more fiercely than the rich people.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
133
Kumar writes:

>>My view is that is that let every individual hear the best presentation of each religion and let everyone make informed choice of what they want to believe. I see in this a win-win situation for everyone concerned. I am adovating for the freedom to preach, criticize, choose, debate religion in a environment of mutual love and respect. Is this not a win-win for everyone? why should anyone object to this? Given the fact that each religion has differing views on what constitutes truth, which other sensible and demcratically viable solution available?

You are so naive. Chaddis like Min(now) don't want people to make informed choice of what they what they want to believe. They want to control other people's choices. All this cultural bullshit arguments boil down to a simple fact they don't want people to make their own choices. If people vote with their feet, then they might have to confront the bankruptcy of their beliefs. So they mindlessly repeat all the clap trap about allurements and force issues.

>>Now, at the sametime, I greatly respect your advocacy for strong nationalism and culture. Can you explain, why there should be a conflict between the two?

Because he wants different sets of principles depending on whose ox is being gored.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
132
>>Old Sack, nobody put a gun to the adivasis and Dalits' heads to turn them saffron. They FREELY chose to do so. Of course, the schools and devlopment projects had something to do with this, showing that Sanghhis have learnt well from missionaries

If true, then its wonderful. However, unless you possess first hand information (things you have witnessed with your own eyes or activities you participated in) and unimpeachable veracity to recount facts, your testimony that they "freely chose" is meaningless.

As a curious matter, do these development projects constitute "allurements"? If so, are they illegal?
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
131
>>Thats bullshit.. may be 1 in billion is ok but not a frequent scenerio.,

May be the infrequency has to do with relative coherence and relevance. But that doesn't concern me.

>>I guess u are no where near reality. If a muslim or a christian converts to hinduism he will be banned and no one in their community talks with him.

And your point is.....

>>Thats minimum Is that not a voilence.

That's not a coherent sentence.

>>Voilence means to break legs and take life!! Well that also happened.

Then they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

>>There are muslim constituencies and districts. The local MLA or MP would go for state sponsored voilence against christians and hindus. I have seen that too. Police are his, govt. officials are his., they act or inact according to his directions., As I said I am not surprised. Its obvious in underdeveloped countries.

Corrupt politics is evidence of a corrupt culture.

>>Ok .,Any negative disturbance is a voilence. Converting to hinduism is next thing. If a christian or a muslim marries a hindum muslims will first burn half a dozen city buses, destroy some good 20 shops and take the life of the gal or his brother many times under the guidance of local muslim mla or goon. police dont interfere in that.

Who should bear the responsibility of police abdicating their duties?

>>Is it not state sponsored voilence from muslims!! You havent seen that voilence. I know it.. If a muslim enters a temple his community will call him a kafir and will chase him down the street beating him. I have seen that.

Enforce the existing laws and don't sit on your hands.

>>If christians and muslims are goodie goodies as u claim by now all islamic nations would have been multi religious societies.

You don't have a damn clue of what I am claiming.

>>Forget about other countries, in india itself you will see multi religious persons in a single family not here and there but in majority. Is that there., NO., So your arguement that hindus are becoming voilent in particular RSS in the name of conversions is not justified. Even muslims and christians are becoming voilent when they loose their respective followrs. Some express it in one way and others in another way.
You wrote:Besides, if its only groupism, what is the basis for preventing one from leaving a group and joining another?

>>Then the groups power will come down and other groups power increases which creates insecurity for the first group.

Its your privilege to think in tribal terms.

>>You have a feeling that christians and muslims are goodie goodies and hindus are culprit. I havent seen a family where a son of a chrisitan or a muslim practicing other than his father's faith with full support of his father. That free will and thinking is not possible in underdeveloped countries. I can see that in advanced countries.

That is a racist statement. What is so inherently deficient about people from "underdeveloped" countries that they do not have free will and thinking?
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
130
Kumar: If as u said everyone is openminded and free to experiment with all religions they will turn into atheists. If u dont believe me look at present day europe. The europeans are christian on paper but atheists to the core. Yes because of insecurity and depression in their life due to family breakups and other upsets they cling to christ for sometime. Once they get stabilised with that they again become atheists. All this happened because they read all religions and found that its waste of time having a blind belief where there is no proof of what is written in books and is sort of self hynotism. Am I not right kumar....
But budhism stands tall... coz it has no dogmas. As Einstien said if at all any religion survives it would be budhism. It shines because its less a religion and less a faith. Its more of seeing oneself and believing what we see. It satisfies athest too.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
129
Kumar: I hope u read my replies to your messages and told its not possible for poor people in india who are majority to break away their small necessity driven communities and experiment on different religions and take up what is gratifying to them. Its for rich and midddle class in india and for people of advanced countries. Its a sort of luxury

Another thing: Like u said if everyone reads all religions and their practices and deate, critisise and understand them then I am 100 percent sure that all those guys will turn atheists or go for budhism. Thats why they shut themselves and confine to their parent's religion and feel secure. The insecurity coming out of knowing truth is difficult to digest for them. Weak heart guys always want to stick to one think and dont want to look around. Unfortunately majority of the people are insecure due to one reason or the other.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
128
Minu Chatterji >> I spent lots of time with you yesterday explaining. And here you come, a evengelical at heart

I would be glad if you have pointed out what is the objectionable statement I made. But, let me understand what you are saying. My view is that is that let every individual hear the best presentation of each religion and let everyone make informed choice of what they want to believe. I see in this a win-win situation for everyone concerned. I am adovating for the freedom to preach, criticize, choose, debate religion in a environment of mutual love and respect. Is this not a win-win for everyone? why should anyone object to this? Given the fact that each religion has differing views on what constitutes truth, which other sensible and demcratically viable solution available?
Now, at the sametime, I greatly respect your advocacy for strong nationalism and culture. Can you explain, why there should be a conflict between the two?
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
127
Old Sack, nobody put a gun to the adivasis and Dalits' heads to turn them saffron. They FREELY chose to do so. Of course, the schools and devlopment projects had something to do with this, showing that Sanghhis have learnt well from missionaries.
Tinkers
Philadelphia, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
126
If muslims and christians are goodie goodies as claimed by oldmac and dont indulge in state sponsored voilence then the face of europe, southamerica, north america, africa and central asia would have been different with healthy vibrant and multicultural societies like ancient greece, roman empire, persia and india. They show their voilence when are in majority and have enough strength.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
125
What ever it is guys., i dont buy that christians and muslims are goodie goodies and hindus and RSS are bad guys indulging in voilence. Everyone is equally voilent when it comes to loosing their followers to other religions. It depends on how powerful they are in their respective addas. Its ridiculous to say that muslims and christians dont become as voilent as RSS (if at all they are) in thier respective power points and indulge in state sponsored voilence. For sure they are not saints to show another cheek if someone slaps their cheek. When they are of not that quality then there is no point in crying here that RSS is sponsoring state voilence. Muslims and christians also will do that in their power centres.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
124
kumar: you are talking about hypothetical aspects. What you are said are good for rich men. Bollywood actors dont have much rigidity in terms of relligion or language. Whatever they please and find good they do it. Everything gets covered because of their status. But all indians are not that rich or advanced in thinking. Most of them are below poverty lane and their day today activities are centred around the cooperation from their freinds, relatives and society they live in. In a way they themselves form a community with unwritten rules. These inter religious marriages, switching from one religion to other are real pain and taxing to these guys who are already experiencing lot of psychological and physical stress because of their life style and poverty. Thats why I said that free thinking and movement is possibel for rich and upper middle class and to some extent in lower middle class india. Even there its not rampant. Its still in pockets. Hypothetically free thinking free will, free switching from one religion to other is great for educating oneself and understanding the truth and coming out of the shadow of parents and peers. But its luxury for an average indian to experiment on that.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
123
EYUNNI,
>> The religious conversions in india among indian religions are based on philosophical debates and appreciation of the faiths. But if the conversions are due to brain washing and based on blind faith its wrong.
In fact, I would say, why just conversion, even staying in the religion of birth too should not be on the basis of "brain washing" or blind faith. we should forever seek out for truth.
>> Lets say an Indian christian sees the wisdom in hinduism and wants to convert. Even if he is given sudra status its ok for him. He wants to worship Vishnu or Siva all his life.. Will christian priests allow him to do.
If a Christian wants to convert to hinduism, he should do so on his own, why should he expect the christian priest who obviously believes in truth of christianity be expected to agree with him. There may be a discussion on the issue, but ultimately each of them have to reserve their right to follow what they want.
>>Dont these muslim mullahs and christain priests ban them from their societies.
Dont we all live in multi-religious society with friends from differte faiths? It is not as if we are living seperately on religious lines. So, you are perhaps talking about friction within a family.
It is common in some societes like the US where a parent may be a christian and a child may be a muslim. Even in India there are cases of inter-religious marriages where people of differing faiths live together. It is upto their mutual understanding. How far, people with differences can live together is dependant on individuals concerned. But the individual freedom of choice of religion can never be compromised/sacrificed at the alter of the hyper-conservativeness of fundamentalism
>> Christian missionaries in kerala made a hue and cry when yesu das sang hindu devotional songs similarly Mohd. Rafi was snubbed when he sang bhajans.
If someone who claims to be belonging to a particular religion, publicly does things which are inconsistent with the teachings of that religion, objections will be raised to clarify. If christianity believes that attributes like omniscience, omnipotence etc be attributed only to God and not to human, and if someone who claims to be christian gives such atributes to someone that christianty considers as human, there will be questions raised or clarifications made. On the other hand if jesu das declared himself to be a hindu, then no church or priest should have any business in raising a hue and cry.
>>Like RSS muslim and christian organisations dont want their followers loose to other religions.
It is understandable that a person or orgnization which thinks that the religion they espouse has something good to offer, and if one from among them leaves there will a concern. Yet, it smacks of insecurity and immorality to indulge in violence, threats etc. At the end of the day, individual freedom of choice can never be compromized in matters of individual faith.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
122
OLD MAC wrote:Religions such as you describe will wither and die on the vine.

I agree with you. they wither and die and at the same time new ones come in their place and this game continues. History is the proof for that. This religious game is the greatest past time of humans since time immemorial.

Do your homework good and come here next time.,
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
121
OLD MAC: I started with u on this religion when i noticed in your postings that conversion to hinduism is not known in history. I have shown the evidence of bimbisara, asoka, guptas, kushans, rajputs etc.,

You wrote:
>>Can a muslim get converted to hinduism!!! Lets say a muslim found great wisdom in yoga and hindu scriptures. Can he convert

Yes.

Thats bullshit.. may be 1 in billion is ok but not a frequent scenerio.,
I guess u are no where near reality. If a muslim or a christian converts to hinduism he will be banned and no one in their community talks with him. Thats minimum Is that not a voilence. Voilence means to break legs and take life!! Well that also happened. There are muslim constituencies and districts. The local MLA or MP would go for state sponsored voilence against christians and hindus. I have seen that too. Police are his, govt. officials are his., they act or inact according to his directions., As I said I am not surprised. Its obvious in underdeveloped countries.

Ok .,Any negative disturbance is a voilence. Converting to hinduism is next thing. If a christian or a muslim marries a hindum muslims will first burn half a dozen city buses, destroy some good 20 shops and take the life of the gal or his brother many times under the guidance of local muslim mla or goon. police dont interfere in that. Is it not state sponsored voilence from muslims!! You havent seen that voilence. I know it.. If a muslim enters a temple his community will call him a kafir and will chase him down the street beating him. I have seen that. If christians and muslims are goodie goodies as u claim by now all islamic nations would have been multi religious societies. Forget about other countries, in india itself you will see multi religious persons in a single family not here and there but in majority. Is that there., NO., So your arguement that hindus are becoming voilent in particular RSS in the name of conversions is not justified. Even muslims and christians are becoming voilent when they loose their respective followrs. Some express it in one way and others in another way.
You wrote:Besides, if its only groupism, what is the basis for preventing one from leaving a group and joining another?

Then the groups power will come down and other groups power increases which creates insecurity for the first group.

Looks like you havent dont proper homework before writing here. Better do it before taking conclusions.

You have a feeling that christians and muslims are goodie goodies and hindus are culprit. I havent seen a family where a son of a chrisitan or a muslim practicing other than his father's faith with full support of his father. That free will and thinking is not possible in underdeveloped countries. I can see that in advanced countries.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
120
>>Of course, religion has found its way into a discussion on English as well. Old Sack writes:
"The other side of the debate argues insecurity/fear of the few (or even many) shouldn't prevent citizens from deciding which religion they follow, a right explicitly guaranteed in the Constitution."

>>Yes, many dalits and adivasis have freely chosen to be saffron. This free choice is going on in tribal belts everywhere with adivasis happily chanting ramayana and feeding and hosting Bajrang Dal cadres. Free choice also functioned with Dalit communities all over Gujarat hoisting saffron flags.

If it were truly free in the sense there was no threat to life and limb, then we should rejoice at people making decisions that affect their lives.

>>Free choice was also how millions of Germans freely embraced nazism and ELECTED Hitler to power.

They had to live with its consequences.

>>More recently, free choice has seen the sweet flowering of fascism in America, land of the brave(s).

They too shall live the consequences of their decision.

>>Free choice is allowing neo-Nazis to gain parliamentary seats all over Europe too.

If its free, then we should rejoice at the fact people exercised their choice. But, nothing prevents the rest of us from defeating their programs with anti-fascists coalitions and shunning them like Modi.

>>Let's have more and MORE free choice. Remove ALL barriers to free choice and free speech, so that all the racists, hatemongers, drug-pushers and divisive-minded people of the world can use their best marketing techniques to gain recruits.

>>Why fear that people may CHOOSE fascism and hate as they often do??

Because people are in the best position to know what is good for them. I trust their collective judgment over yours or mine.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
119
>>The religious conversions in india among indian religions are based on philosophical debates and appreciation of the faiths.

Its irrelevant to the state on what basis the conversions took place as long as there is no threat to life or limb.

>>But if the conversions are due to brain washing and based on blind faith its wrong.

Those are merely assumptions on your part and even then those are not a public concern.

>>Bimbisara became jain monk by his choice similarly ashoka. Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar and many dalits became budhists and christians. Many christians found that christianity is based on blind faith. So they got converted to hinduism.

That's their business. State can neither encourage or prevent those conversions under the constitution.

>>You say RSS cries foul when hindus get converted to christianity.

They do more than merely cry foul. They respond with violence.

>>Can a muslim get converted to hinduism!!! Lets say a muslim found great wisdom in yoga and hindu scriptures. Can he convert

Yes.

>>and at the same time Mullah's with open heart ask himto become hindu and put tilak on his head... Never...

If a muslim converts to hindusim, then why is there a need for tilak on his head? An Individual must live the consequences of his decision, including potential shunning of his former co-religionists. That's what being an adult means.

>>Lets say an Indian christian sees the wisdom in hinduism and wants to convert.

That's his business which state has no business in intervening.

>>Even if he is given sudra status its ok for him.

Says who? Do you speak for those people? If they demand brahmin status?

>>He wants to worship Vishnu or Siva all his life.. Will christian priests allow him to do.

No one has the right to interfere with such individual decisions, including christian priests.

>>Dont these muslim mullahs and christain priests ban them from their societies.

May be or may be not. But that is not a public concern. That is a consequence that the Individual who converts will have to bear.

>>Christian missionaries in kerala made a hue and cry when yesu das sang hindu devotional songs similarly Mohd. Rafi was snubbed when he sang bhajans.

Their reaction is not issue of public concern.

>>Like RSS muslim and christian organisations dont want their followers loose to other religions.

An organization's failure to meet its members needs (includes spiritual et. al) means members should be able to leave that organization without the intervention of state machinery to keep the status quo.

>>Basically now religon is like a syndicate. God is for name sake. Main issue is to get together and become a group and get benefits. Its another groupism. So dont take all this seriously and relax.

I am as relaxed can be after two cognacs. I am always in favor of simpler explanations, just not simple-minded ones. Religions such as you describe will wither and die on the vine. Besides, if its only groupism, what is the basis for preventing one from leaving a group and joining another?
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
118
Of course, religion has found its way into a discussion on English as well. Old Sack writes:
"The other side of the debate argues insecurity/fear of the few (or even many) shouldn't prevent citizens from deciding which religion they follow, a right explicitly guaranteed in the Constitution."

Yes, many dalits and adivasis have freely chosen to be saffron. This free choice is going on in tribal belts everywhere with adivasis happily chanting ramayana and feeding and hosting Bajrang Dal cadres. Free choice also functioned with Dalit communities all over Gujarat hoisting saffron flags.

Free choice was also how millions of Germans freely embraced nazism and ELECTED Hitler to power. More recently, free choice has seen the sweet flowering of fascism in America, land of the brave(s).

Free choice is allowing neo-Nazis to gain parliamentary seats all over Europe too.

Let's have more and MORE free choice. Remove ALL barriers to free choice and free speech, so that all the racists, hatemongers, drug-pushers and divisive-minded people of the world can use their best marketing techniques to gain recruits.

Why fear that people may CHOOSE fascism and hate as they often do??
Tinkers
Philadelphia, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
117
TINKERS: Religion is opium of masses. So I am not surprised to see the discussion here is slipping from English/Inglish to religion. Inglish is just an excuse here.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
116
ON STATE AIDING CONFLICT: Do you think the islamic countries will allow their citizens to try other religions like chrisitianity, hinduism budhism and chose whatever they like it!!! Never coz they fear that their number dwindles. That luxury of taking religion by choice exists only in advanced countries coz law and order is well maintained and more importantly everyone's stomach is full. They get bored with one religion so they try another. The soceity is different there. For underdeveloped, poor countries like muslim nations and subcontinent that luxury is difficult. Here muslim converting to hindu and christian converting to hindu is unimaginable but hindu converting to muslim and christian is ok...As long as the country is underdeveloped and backward state supporting one religion and group is obvious. If its not hindu then it will be muslim or christian. that is inevitable and I am not surprised.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
115
OLDMAC: The religious conversions in india among indian religions are based on philosophical debates and appreciation of the faiths. But if the conversions are due to brain washing and based on blind faith its wrong. Bimbisara became jain monk by his choice similarly ashoka. Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar and many dalits became budhists and christians. Many christians found that christianity is based on blind faith. So they got converted to hinduism. You say RSS cries foul when hindus get converted to christianity. Can a muslim get converted to hinduism!!! Lets say a muslim found great wisdom in yoga and hindu scriptures. Can he convert and at the same time Mullah's with open heart ask himto become hindu and put tilak on his head... Never... Lets say an Indian christian sees the wisdom in hinduism and wants to convert. Even if he is given sudra status its ok for him. He wants to worship Vishnu or Siva all his life.. Will christian priests allow him to do. Dont these muslim mullahs and christain priests ban them from their societies. Christian missionaries in kerala made a hue and cry when yesu das sang hindu devotional songs similarly Mohd. Rafi was snubbed when he sang bhajans. Like RSS muslim and christian organisations dont want their followers loose to other religions. Basically now religon is like a syndicate. God is for name sake. Main issue is to get together and become a group and get benefits. Its another groupism. So dont take all this seriously and relax.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
114
>>...make Islamic Major & Minor Superhumans compatible with Indian ones...reject the Indian Superhumans...

What the hell is an "Islamic Superhuman"... looks like a question for Chacha Chowdhary?!

Some "Indian Superhumans" that I can whip from the sanghi comics are:- Super-Sudarshan, Tiger-Togadia, Turbo-Thackeray, Alpha-Advani, Dr. Vajpayee & Mr. Hyde. How ami I doing guys!? ;-)
gorgon
Hawaii, USA
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
113
Eyunni writes:

>>Who said conversions are not allowed in india. Rajuputs are hindu converts. Many buddist kings adopted hinduism. Kushanas who were budhists to start with became hindus in the later time. The famous guptas were not proper hindus. At one point they got converted. After Ashoka, some of his progeny became hindus again.
There is always a movement of people from budhism jainism hinduism atheism, animism etc., Ashoka was a hindu and his father bimbisara was a hindu. But in the old age bimbisara embarrased jainism and became a monk and went to forests and disappeared. I know many sikhs becoming hindus and many hindus adopting sikhism. Many times a hindu's first son would be a sikh and a sikh's son would be a hindu. All these is possible because all these subcontinental religions have kin ship like chiristianity, judaism and islam has kinship. Problem is the subcontinental religions have not much kinship with abhrahamic religions. The abrahamic religions would be good but just our ideas dont match with them. Yes our ideas match with ancient persian, greek, germanic, irish, egyptian, scandinavian religions.

The fact that they have been conversions in the past and that there will continue to be in the future does not advance the debate whether a law should prevent people from exercising their freedom of conscience to follow whatever religion they want. One side of the debate is BJP/VHP/RSS and others who can't defend their beliefs on their coherence or relevance and try to hide behind the naked power of the state to protect their numbers from dwindling. The other side of the debate argues insecurity/fear of the few (or even many) shouldn't prevent citizens from deciding which religion they follow, a right explicitly guaranteed in the Constitution.

>>So the conflict between abrahamic religions (islam, christianity and judaism) and pagan religions (Hindusim, budhism, sikhism, jainism european religons)is obvious given their outlook and way of thinking.

So on what legitimate basis does the state intervene on one side of this conflict?
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
112
Also guys dont bring religon here. Language has nothing to do with religon. Many muslims speak urdu with loads of persian and arabic words thinking that persian and arabic are muslim languages. But the fact is persian and arabic were not developed by muslims. Its zorastrians of iran and pagans of arabia before mohammed who developed these langauges. In fact persian emperors like cyrus darius, xerxes and persian heros like rustum, khusro, feroz are all not muslims. Much of the persian history, culture, language owe more to non muslim zorastrians than muslims. Even the persian script where muslims proudly write urdu is developed by zorastrians not muslims. The problem is history for muslims start from 7th century. Before that there is no history or great kings or any culture. Thats the biggest joke i ever heard just like before 1st century (CE) there is no civilisation for christians. Anyways, I dont want to critise anyone. These are some truths I gotto know after interacting with people.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
111
OLDMAC: Who said conversions are not allowed in india. Rajuputs are hindu converts. Many buddist kings adopted hinduism. Kushanas who were budhists to start with became hindus in the later time. The famous guptas were not proper hindus. At one point they got converted. After Ashoka, some of his progeny became hindus again.
There is always a movement of people from budhism jainism hinduism atheism, animism etc., Ashoka was a hindu and his father bimbisara was a hindu. But in the old age bimbisara embarrased jainism and became a monk and went to forests and disappeared. I know many sikhs becoming hindus and many hindus adopting sikhism. Many times a hindu's first son would be a sikh and a sikh's son would be a hindu. All these is possible because all these subcontinental religions have kin ship like chiristianity, judaism and islam has kinship. Problem is the subcontinental religions have not much kinship with abhrahamic religions. The abrahamic religions would be good but just our ideas dont match with them. Yes our ideas match with ancient persian, greek, germanic, irish, egyptian, scandinavian religions. So the conflict between abrahamic religions (islam, christianity and judaism) and pagan religions (Hindusim, budhism, sikhism, jainism european religons)is obvious given their outlook and way of thinking.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
110
>Borrowing from other religions again?

>>Christ's resurrection is an import from Hindu religion, i.e., rebirth. Monotheism is not "invented" by The Prophet. Its in circulation for many 1000 years before that. Even words "allah" is used in Arabic before Prophet used that.

>>Even "Hijab", which is now so synomynous with Muslims these days, is an import from Byzantine Empire.

changing the subject again? Conversions are not recognized in Hinduism. You have yet to acknowledge this basic fact. If through some yogic contortion you believe it, then what caste to these converts and reconverts become?
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
109
Abhishek: I understand what u are saying. Hindi is like english and an alien language whose mother tongue is not hindi. There can be a common language for all of india just to communicate like hindi or anyother language chosen by the concent of all the people. But the important task to is bring all 25 languages of india on par with russian or german or japanese.Thats not possible right given our lazy attitude!!! Also money is required to hire pundits in these languages and updating all these langauges every day. Its not easy. Thats why english was chosen as a medium so that in one shot. Thats fine initially coz we lagged behind europeans when we got indendence. But slowly when we are settling we should aim for that big thing., i.e, to make all 25 langauges of india on par with world langauges. Still these 25 well structured languages are tip of ice berg. We filtered these 25 languages from around 3000 or more langauges of India. We are not in a linguistic era to invent new languages or allow new languages like inglish to take shape. This is the era of fast pace and productivity. When we cannot utilise our resources of well structured and scientifically sound 25 languages whats the point in making another cocktail like inglish. With the war fear gone and economic stability round the corner world languages are undergoing minimum changes. Coz different countries have now more or less codified the languages and freezed it to become productive. Ofcourse they take loan words from otehr languages. But still thats minimal. They are now able to churn out new words in their own language without the influence of other languages. For exampel the railway station is called Gare in french. It will remain so whether ulike it or not. They invented that word not borrowed from other language.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
108
>>OM..I understand, you are trying very hard to sell conversion very hard.

The only thing I am trying hard to sell is that individuals have enforceable and meaningful rights to determine their own future. How they exercise those rights are of no concern to me.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
107
Other southern states were uncomfortable. Bombay and Gujratis started there own program. The reality on the ground is that india is a multi-lingual society. And all the languages that we are talking about were developed independently by the people of these different regions before the nation state of india and so the affinity for these languages are regional. These languages have very close affinity with themselves but they are not the same and so lot of effort has to be made for india to develop one single language to become the national language of india. It is not like a prepared food as for japanese or chinese or french where they have a national language so they dont have to make an effort to develop a national language.

So when we have to make an effort and the second most compelling argument is that there is no regional language not even hindi which can be acceptable as a official language of communication in india so we have to import a language and develop it in this new and contemporary india which will be owned by everyone, marathi, gujrati, bengali, tamilian, kannada everybody, because everybody has a stake, and contribution to this new language that we will develop. See this phenomenon is inevitable it happens everywhere, when new people interact and co-operate then new things develop and that is what Inglish or indian version of english is and mind you this language will have a very heavy content of hindi and some regional language and will be very much acceptable to the southies becuase they are a participant in the development of this language.

Further the other important compelling argument in favour of this phenomenon is that english is the language of upward social mobility. Anybody who has to become economically better he can do that through the instrument of english only. With hindi or other regional language this cannot happen and this is linked to the argument that i gave about india not having a national language per se and hindi cannot be promoted as a national language(because this smacks off regional chauvinism and also an unpractical solution) so that is why english naturally got promoted as the language of the educated intellectuals, because this is the only language which is understood and is communicable to all the people in any region of this country.

So though your arguments about invasion, conquer is very compelling but it falls flat on the face of ground realities. Further as I had said that we indians are a master in changing and adopting and hence what we will do to english will be our own. We will develop it and make it our own. And as far as anybody thinking anything about us. Let them think, the point is that we will turn it around and show them the finger in not more than 50-100 years and then they will say that we conqured them instead of they conquering us. The same argument of an indian converting himself and in the process convert the thing according to his needs.

And regarding the Arabs obliterating Persians, they were not able to do this with indians though they tried a lot. They destroyed our temples, raped and looted our woman, but no we were not obliterated neither were we changed, we adapted and changed them instead. Arabs became indian muslims and indians did not become arabs and the same is going to happen to english. English will become inglish but we will remain the same and one more language will be added to indian repertoire of the several languages that we have given to this world.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Apr 28, 2005 12:00 AM
106
Eyunni

I guess I had tried to illustrate the indian response to invasion and conquer. But I guess it will take a very good book for you to take this concept of indian assimilation to get hold. I will not try to illustrate it further. I know that you have a definite mind-set and you are definitely entitled to have them.

About your concerns of indians not learning in there mother tongue. You are right we are at a disadvantage lingually vis-a-vis nations like France, Germany or Japan. These nations have a homogeneous language. You goto any part of france, germany or japan they will have a single dialect and language.

You move from one part of india to another part you will see atleast 4 changes in language and you move in any direction it will happen.

The point is that indians have a very strong regional language. Bengal speaks bengali, maharastra speaks marathi, gujrat speaks gujrati and people living in these regions have a very strong regional language content. Though in most of north india hindi is also the language of the masses but still the mother tongue in all these regions is the regional languages not even hindi. The only purely hindi speaking population is bihar, UP, MP and to certain extent Chattisgarh and Jharkhand. All other states people think in there regional language.

Now coming to South India here the popularity of hindi is very less. It is not a mass language. It is present in metro cities only and that too only in public space and not in private homes.

So the matter of fact is that india does not have a homogenous language which is identified by all the people or even 50% of the people in this country. Nehru tried very hard to get hindi the national language status. He started all the linguistic research, developed several new terms but was not accepted by the people of india. Tamil Nadu was up in revolt against hindi hegemony.


Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
105
>>Borrowing from other religions again?

Christ's resurrection is an import from Hindu religion, i.e., rebirth. Monotheism is not "invented" by The Prophet. Its in circulation for many 1000 years before that. Even words "allah" is used in Arabic before Prophet used that.

Even "Hijab", which is now so synomynous with Muslims these days, is an import from Byzantine Empire.
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
104
Gorgon: For u and many indians like u its not wrong and they are all master pieces. But for outsiders its a sort of influence. Is it not true that most of north and western india were satraps of persian empire!!! Ask any historian. He will tell the same. Urdu is a product of that obedience. You dont see a urdu equivalent in persia or afghanistan with tons of hindi or sanskrit words but still a iranian language. Thats because they were never satraps to us. Urdu is a beautiful language. I agree though. Its not how beautiful or how good it is., Its the question of who influenced and who conquered whom.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
103
These days English has the maximum intake of new words from Hindi compared to any other language. Does that mean India is conquering Britain? If the mughals had conquered with the sole intent of destruction of local culture then India would be like the Spanish speaking South America where local dialects have all but disappeared. Simplistic explanations have a limit, beyond which they start sounding quite nonsensical.
gorgon
Hawaii, USA
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
102
>>I should have written: Re-conversion was imported into Hinduism by Swami Dayanand Saraswati from Semetic religion to address Issues of that time. Don't blame us. Blame Yourself.

Borrowing from other religions again? Re-conversions are not recognized in Hinduism. If so, what caste to these newly converted or reconverted Hindus belong to?
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
101
Urdu is a truly homegenous Indian creation, made with Hindi and Persian, yet remaining closest to Hindi. The poetry and literature in Urdu and it's effect on Indian cinema is a true testament to it's prowess. How could this mean subservience to any foreign culture. If Inglish can blossom similarly, it would be another feather in the cap of Indian ingenuity.
gorgon
Hawaii, USA
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
100
Previiously we were like satrpas of persian empire and afghanistan with urdu at the helm of affaris and now we are or in the process of becoming a satrap of us or uk. Forget about becoming super power guys. Lets pray that we would not have puppet PMs and presidents in future whose threads being pulled by us and uk. Coz when u mimic others and modify others lingo or thoughts you would end up as a satrap not as a master.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
99
Lets say a third person like a german or russian visits india and sees sign boards in english and people speaking english and medium of instructon in english. He immediately concludes that india is conqurerd by british and indians were overwhelmingly influenced by britishers. English or Hinglish or Inglish does not make much difference. Ultimately he concludes that india is either a satrap of us and uk or in the process of becoming one. When he visit ex french colony like pondicherry he thinks that the french medium of instruction is there coz of french conquest. He never thinks that people just like that picked up french out of love towards french langauge and speaking it or using it as a medium of instruction. Its the conquest which makes that way. Inglish is also the product of that conquest like urdu. And we were conquered both by mind and soul.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
98
Conquest becomes complete when we accept the defeat and influenced by the conquerer. Greeks invaded persia and conquered. But persians never got conquered. Coz they were not greatly influenced by persia. But when persia conquered greek states they got conquered coz greeks were totally got influenced by persian customs and attire. Even alexander used to mimic the persian royal mannerisms. Ofcourse later arabs conquered persia and persians allowed themselves to get influenced in such a way that they changed for ever. Arabs had a last laugh. What greeks could not do arabs did for persians. Made them satraps.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
97
With urdu and persian in the courts of the medieval periods, we were treated as a satrap or vassal to persian empire and afghanistan not long ago. During that period our architecture, writings were greatly influenced by persia. Even we have to adopt lot of persian names to our regions like punjab, hindu etc., What you guys think we are at that time. SATRAPS OF PERSIAN EMPIRE. Influence of one languae on another is obvious but when it becomes overwhelming then we would be considered as satraps or vassal states. Mauryan empire touched the borders of Persia and even entered into it. But indian languges never made impact on persia. So persia never became a vassal state during mauryan empire or after that. Its we who became satraps of persia not the other way.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
96
Indranil: To develop native languges in india on par with english or german or russian or japanese and invent lots of words suitable for science, technology and economics is not a joke. It requires lots of commitment and enthusiasm. Do u think lazy indians will do it., No way., Slowly india becomes a vassal state or satrap to present super powers and future super powers like china. We ultimately end up as back office country to other countries coz with english as medium of instruction, forget about rejuvenating creativity among indians. Mass scientific and technlogical enlightenment is impossible with an alien language. I have nothing against english or anything. Look at any country on the face of the earth. Every country teaches their children in their mother tongue. be it usa, or russia or germany or france or japan.... Thats the hard truth. And we with english and inglish will be a vassal state to us and uk.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
95
For sometime now media is focussing on this phenomena of Hinglish or Inglish, or whatever one may call it. Any language is constantly evolving.... and when two languages come in contact, each of them are influenced by the other. Extensive use of english starting from the British rule till todate in official matters, means our local languages will be influenced by english, and english itself (in the subcontinent) will acquire a distinct hue. What is so surprising about it? And I fail to understand how that makes India future global power? To be a political power (and therefore an economic power), there has to be largescale industrialization, and for that our agriculture has to develope, illeteracy has to be irradicated - in short, the whole country has to be rejuvanated. One must keep in mind, that we have not achieved it as yet. And if some one concludes merely accepting Inglish as THE language, India will be super power without achieving the basic conditions of developement, I have to say that, he/she is quite naive.

Author's assertion that inglish is our gateway to heaven (in this case, being super power), is ofcourse his opinion, and he is entitled to have one, but, attacking Bengal, Keral, Gujrat etc for their choice of medium of education is a little too far fetched. While I do not know how the govts of other states have fared, but I can always speak about my own state. When WB govt introduced bengali as the medium of education, and started teaching english from the sixth standard, their was a lot of criticism of the govt, amongst urban rich and middle class and ofcourse in the media. In my opinion the problem was not so much in introducing mother tongue as the medium of instruction, but in the execution of the policy. The govt didn't do their home work, started it off in a haphazard manner, as a result they had to withdraw. It would have been better if the author had dealt this question on more serious note than what he has done.

And lastly I must add, that Indian media constantly projects India to be a power house of english. Well, it is simply not true. For arguments sake, I can accept that, an educated Indian may be better than an chinese or an russian in english, but other non-english speaking people like the dutch and the swedes are much much better. On an average, educated Indians, do not write or speak good english. On an average, educated Indians have a working
knowledge in english. And the Indians I am talking about are really only few percent of the entire population. If one considers the whole of Indian population and make an weighted average of the knowledge of english, I have to say, we will be no where in the picture.

Let me end this longish letter by just adding that, I have nothing against english, and ground reality in India suggests, we have to continue teaching english in schools and universities.

But serious efforts has to be made in rejuvinating our vernacular as well. One has to do research, workshops on how to provide higher education through our mother toungue.
It will take some time, but I think it can be done.
Indranil
Kolkata, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
94
Inglish is to be celebrated...it could end up being the Urdu of our times. But calling it the language of the world in the 21st century is far fetched. Mandarin would be a far better claimant to that throne.

Whatever the merits of Inglish, it is naive to think that it doesn't affect vernacular languages. People who learn in English medium schools tend to think in English. I am a perfect example. I grew up speaking Malayalam at home and I am relatively fluent in the language. But the books I read are in English, the newspapers I read are English and for all practical purposes my first language is English. I am one of those Das lauds as someone who can help integrate India into the global economy. But my loss is real - a mother tongue I cannot call my first language.
Parvathy Nair
Mumbai, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
93
Once in a while, an article comes,which is well thought of and reflects the moods and sentiments of people well, previously not expressed. This is one such wonderful and thought provoking opinion. It not only draws parallels from literature and history but also from living examples like the ad commercials. I fully endorse the views of the writer and would be delighted to hear from him in future if there is anything more that he wishes to state.
hemant p chordia
chennai, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
92
I am amused by all the comments that I read. Lately the comments are off on a tangent and I am attempting to bring them back on the track by adding my two bit. First of all, there is no such thing as ‘pure’ language. All languages were and are ‘cocktails’. Languages are constantly evolving and one can’t freeze them in time. ‘fenglish’ ‘inglish’ ‘hinglish’ are all part of this process of evolution, you and me not withstanding. What I think people mean is taking pride in your mother tongue, which I agree with them wholeheartedly. Learning English is no excuse for not learning my mother tongue. To one I owe my career, to another I owe my identity. None is less important and both are dear to me.

Secondly, accents are accepted socially, or at least they should be. Why should anyone laugh at it at all? Is there any one accent in this world which is correct? Why should Americans laugh at Indians speaking English? Partly because they look down on us and partly because they fear us. After all we are taking away their jobs thanks mostly to our English speaking skills.

Americans made their own English; British laughed at them but could do nothing. America is a superpower so people accepted their version of English. If, tomorrow, India becomes one, hinglish would be accepted too, by people world over, why fret?? It’s all about power not pronunciation. When weak races perish, their language, however scientific and good, dies with them. Strong races survive and so does their language. If I have faith in my identity I will survive against all odds and so will my language.
Arti Godara
Mumbai, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
91
OM..I understand, you are trying very hard to sell conversion very hard. But its now has no takers amongst political parties. Everybody objects to that, except "Goan Democratic party" in Jharkhand! Remember, the Old NE Hero. he..he..

I was shocked even to see a statement from Medha Patkar which was like this: yes, I know lots of Bangladeshis are there in Mumbai. But during this eviction drive, many genuine people are also driven out.

Who is left now to support your cause? Arundhuti Roy?

Anyway..man..its your mission to convert us. Now everybody is saying: please stop this. What you want next? Banning Conversion by parliament? Like in China? Who knows, even that will happen. I don't get surprized these days anymore.
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
90
>OM>>Most converted( in NE), because what they had was worthless and what they got was worthwhile.

>>So much arrogance !!

That's an argument?

>>You are worst than Bin-Laden.

You can barely write basic English. Since its a comparison, you should write "you are worse than Bin-Laden." Worst is the superlative form, Worse is comparative form.

Don't flatter yourself lest you have any illusisons about yourself. The role you play in my postings is merely that of a prop.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
89
OM>>Your drivel never even came close to addressing the central issue, numbnuts

Because, those went above your head. Like the difference between "wisdom" and "IQ".
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
88
>>OM>>Just as Modi found out that his decisions had consequences. So will the actions of the country.

>>he..he..Modi won that round. resoundingly. USA was opposed even by that 90 year old man. What will USA do? Its the biggest Begger. It has to beg to everybody to give credit. Now others will close ranks, and force it downward.

Terminal psychosis.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
87
>OM>>The realization that your beliefs can't defend themselves in the marketplace of ideas is an old one.

>>Hey..we discussed all these things..Remember, when Seema Sirohi wrote the first article on Visagate. I answered all of your question. Please visit that thred, if required

Your drivel never even came close to addressing the central issue, numbnuts.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
86
I should have written, EVEN A MODI WON THAT ROUND. All Political parties in India had to SUPPORT EVEN A MODI. Imagine, how much evengelicals goofed up, with the help of that Congressman?
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
85
OM>>The realization that your beliefs can't defend themselves in the marketplace of ideas is an old one.

Hey..we discussed all these things..Remember, when Seema Sirohi wrote the first article on Visagate. I answered all of your question. Please visit that thred, if required.
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
84
OM>>Just as Modi found out that his decisions had consequences. So will the actions of the country.

he..he..Modi won that round. resoundingly. USA was opposed even by that 90 year old man. What will USA do? Its the biggest Begger. It has to beg to everybody to give credit. Now others will close ranks, and force it downward.

Its inevitable.

Wetsern reign was the shortest in history..just 200 years (1800-2000).
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
83
>>As a sane person, I tend to believe, Courts are entitled to look into issues based on Letter and SPIRIT of the Constitution.

I'll settle for the explicit letter of freedom of speech and freedom of religion and freedom to propagate not getting abrogated through "yogic interpretations"

>>Had Evengelicals/missionaries were not following frudulent means for conversion in the first place, Supreme Court wouldn't have pronounced that judgement in 1979. There were warning shots for Missionaries since mid 1950s, when A CONGRESS LEAD GOVT in MADHYA PRADESH Constituted "Neogi Comission", which put the methods followed by Missionaries in focus.

The realization that your beliefs can't defend themselves in the marketplace of ideas is an old one. Stoking your insecurities is a venerable political trick to whip you into line.

Just as Modi found out that his decisions had consequences. So will the actions of the country.

>>But You people never learnt from that. And continued your Conversion and destruction of trobal Culture.

There's nothing to learn.

>>And STILL YOU ARE NOT LEARNING. Even After CPIM, CPI, CONgress...VHP..everybody put you in dock. Even Outlook, Intelligence agencies are putting you in dock.

If their demonstrated competence is any indication, there is very little concern about it.

>>The conversion in NE was NOT done pre-1947. It was done after independence. You folks took advantage of our liberalism, secularism, good wishes. Now, as you are not correcting, we are shedding all these. Its not fault of these ideas, but yours.

Most converted because what they had was worthless and what they got was worthwhile. It is what you call a rational trade.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
82
OM>>Most converted( in NE), because what they had was worthless and what they got was worthwhile.

So much arrogance !!

Kumar, a decent Guy, have been dreaming about a Cultural plurality with guys like you!! And this is your reply! I am not surprized, because as I have read bit history, I know what has been done by Missionaries in Europe, North-South America, or parts of Asia.

Even Gandhi said: Christianity erased Europe.

You are worst than Bin-Laden.
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
81
OM>>When the U.S. Supreme Court decided in The Dred Scott decision that black people are property, it was unconstitutional.

Don't quote American experince. Talk about Indian experience. Alll Signatories to "declaration of independence", except Ben Fraklin ownwed Slaves. The way American state dealt with "red-Indians" is most horrible. They way it treated Mexicans is most horrible.
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
80
OM>>..you have conceded that your beliefs still need protection of the naked power of the state

As a sane person, I tend to believe, Courts are entitled to look into issues based on Letter and SPIRIT of the Constitution. Had Evengelicals/missionaries were not following frudulent means for conversion in the first place, Supreme Court wouldn't have pronounced that judgement in 1979. There were warning shots for Missionaries since mid 1950s, when A CONGRESS LEAD GOVT in MADHYA PRADESH Constituted "Neogi Comission", which put the methods followed by Missionaries in focus.

But You people never learnt from that. And continued your Conversion and destruction of trobal Culture.

And STILL YOU ARE NOT LEARNING. Even After CPIM, CPI, CONgress...VHP..everybody put you in dock. Even Outlook, Intelligence agencies are putting you in dock.

The conversion in NE was NOT done pre-1947. It was done after independence. You folks took advantage of our liberalism, secularism, good wishes. Now, as you are not correcting, we are shedding all these. Its not fault of these ideas, but yours.
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
79
>I smile at those clearly unconstitutional actions

>>he..he..So, now Supreme Court also becomes Unconstitutional!

At least, you have conceded that your beliefs still need protection of the naked power of the state because your beliefs can't defend themselves with their coherence or relevance.

Yes, even a supreme court can act in an unconstitutional manner, you douche bag. When the U.S. Supreme Court decided in The Dred Scott decision that black people are property, it was unconstitutional. When the same court declared in the Plessy vs. Ferguson case that Separate But Equal doctrine which legalized racial discrimination, it was unconstitutional. Similarly, your pea-sized brain would believe that if the Supreme Court declares that the earth is flat that is the end of discussion for the likes of you. Fortunately, you are unconvincing for any living organism higher than a planaria.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
78
Kumar...It was not because he is a 10 year old Kid. It was because, her (actually its a girl) parents are evangelical. You can still find that interview in "CNN Presents", in cnn.com website. It was a programme on Evangelicalism.

I agree with your position on Tolerance. You may like to see an interview of eric Howbaswan, noted marxist historian, taken by Prem Shankar Jha, here in Outlook. You can search by Author. Even a modernist like Him said: Ottoman Turkey was more tolerant than many European Modern States.

It makes me mad. Our very own Ashis nandy has been saying this for last 30 years, but nobody listened. Why? Because his color is brown? Still we are to be told by a "white" person?

Actually we were/are fighting at the wrong issue. "Secularism" was never a issue, even with Hindu Right, as stated by Partha Chatterjee. The issue was and still is: Tolerance.

I do hope, every Indian participate in a true, tolerant, culturally Indian Society where they can pursue material as well as spiritual advancement of their society.

Thank you.
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
77
I should have written: Re-conversion was imported into Hinduism by Swami Dayanand Saraswati from Semetic religion to address Issues of that time. Don't blame us. Blame Yourself.
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
76
OM>>If conversion--unless you define it non-\sensically as hindu to non-hindu only--is illegal, reconversions constitutes breaking the law, no?

Re-conversion was imported into Hinduism by Swami Dayanand Saraswati. It was not started by VHP. Hey,..you just called Supreme Court Verdict as Unconstitutional. How does it matter, what these people are doing in UP? I raised the issue to highlight that, even under 'secular" dispension, Missionary interest is not secured. Police will not help you. Neither district Administration.

Understood?

Even CPIM brands missionaries as working with Anti-National Elements. Man, I didn't believe it when I first read it in Anandabazar!....

Good Job Mr. Evengelical..I am sure, VHP bosss are laughing seeing all these. They will ONLY tighten Screws further, if not already.
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
75
Minu Chatterji,
>> "Culture is Making a sweet return into History, society. Its true everywhere, whether in US or in India"
Yet, careful consideration of any true and frank criticism and self-cricism is the only way to reject the negative elements of the culture, and promote the positive elements - and further evolve into a great culture. It is not just culture that is important - it is the greatness of a culture and its moral fabric of the culture that is important.

>> "American society is one of the most prejudiced society in the world. A 10 year old White American Kid from "bush land" was shown on CNN saying: Whoever don't believe in jesus will land up in Hell."

It is perhaps because he is a 10 year old, he made such a statement? Most christians DO make a stament that belief/acceptance of teachings of Jesus and living with realization/implications of Jesus' life/death/resurrecution will take one to heaven, this is NOT the same as saying that "those who don't believe in jesus will land up in Hell". Being a 10 year old, he may have interpreted that way. In any case, if one does not agree with the statement made, why not just ignore it as an extremely conservative/fundamentalist view? As long as the boy does not incite violence or say that those who do not agree to his version of religion should be kicked out of the country, they should not be a major issue - except some irritation when we hear such statements.

>> "What these left/nehruvian liberals, specially Congress are now doing is: they have changed the definition of secularism from "absence of religion" to "equal respect to all religions". But that shows the failure of the first definition they wrongfully pursued for many many years."

Secularims as "absence of religion" was hardly ever the case in India, though it may have been close to that intitially. Even Jyoti Basu was known to give donations to religious festivals etc. I too reject such a view of secularism as merely absence of religion (that is atheism - not secularism). Secularim is not only "equal respect to all religions", it is actually a freedom to practice, proclaim, criticize (within limits of decency), debate, reject, discuss and choose religion based on free-will. You asked "But will Muslims, Christians accept that?" Let me assure you, everyone will accept this, with the exception of some fringe organizations who oppose it. There are very few countries in the world today who still reject such freedom as a state policy. But increasingly, the world is moving towards that.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
74
OM>>Aspire to make atleast one point for every 5000 words posted.

Missionaries have always been ignorant about India. So, is their discourse. As you believe in that, I am not surprized at your ignorance!

>>I smile at those clearly unconstitutional actions

he..he..So, now Supreme Court also becomes Unconstitutional!

Anything, and everything, every trick, deceit is allowed in this Conversion project, isn't it? I think, most of the Missionaries will land up in Hell. Because God loves all of their creatures, color, smell.
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
73
>>50,000 (not a typo)

became

>>in the tune of 5000. It was based on The Pioneer report

You see my point. If conversion--unless you define it non-\sensically as hindu to non-hindu only--is illegal, reconversions constitutes breaking the law, no? Remember, I am the cat and you are the ball of yarn.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
72
Min(now) writes:

>>Firstly, 50% of Tamil & Hindi words are of common origin. For the rest of Tamil words, theye were NOT used to Spread Christianity, rather spread of Shaivaism. Remember that as well.

Aspire to make atleast one point for every 5000 words posted.

>>Every state now can enact legal laws to stop Conversion. Its already enacted in Central Indian States where 85% of Indian Tribals(your hot target) live. Add VHP/RSS folks on the top of that.

I smile at those clearly unconstitutional actions because your beliefs need protection of the naked power of the state because you cannot defend them with their coherence or relevance. In a lawless culture, more laws means more lawlessness especially in the realm of personal beliefs.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
71
Prakash writes:

>>the medium is often as important as the message. I've seen a lot of Indians who are comfortable communicating (with an open mind) if the other person can speak their language (Hindi, Tamil etc ) - blame it on their parochialism or anything else - it is a fact. That kind of bonding doesnt happen normally when they speak in English. The approach that i've seen so far is that English is for the formal matters and Hindi/vernacular languages for personal and other matters.

The desire of people to use their vernacular when they see people from their region when in foreign places does not proves that medium is as important as the message.

>>It is also not correct to say that there are no secular ideas that bind India. I think the goal/objective to see India emerge as an economic power and ideal/model secular democracy has a wide following.

What are the secular ideas that bind the country? What are the few ideas that one have to believe in to be an Indian beyond which no one demands anything of an individual?
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
70
Kumar..I think, you referred to my post from another forum. I am replying here (nobody should complain plz..)

Yes, you are correct. Culture is Making a sweet return into History, society. Its true everywhere, whether in US or in India. It should not have been banished in the first place. But it was, because of arrogant 19th century Europe, who believed people will love each other based on "scientific reasons"! ha..ha..

About the second part: Tolerance in the society.

Unfortunately, Tolerance couldn't be generated by the Nation-State & its different wings like Administration, law-Enforcement etc. because, in absense of "religion" (due to secularism), students couldn't be taught tolerance. There is inbuilt arrogance in the word "nation-building", where everything has to be same like a finished factory product. American society is one of the most prejudiced society in the world. A 10 year old White American Kid from "bush land" was shown on CNN saying: Whoever don't believe in jesus will land up in Hell. This is Evangelicalism. I can understand the dilema of Poor Pashtun Boy from Peshawar, but this is a wealthy white kid.

Dilema is India is many fold. First, left/or nehruvian Liberalism has no difference with Hindu Nationalists as far as "nation-Building" is concerned. All of them believe in European Nation state, which has turned out to be a total failure as far as tolerance of the society is concerned. All of them are secular as well. So, nobody has any answer to Tolerance.

What these left/nehruvian liberals, specially Congress are now doing is: they have changed the definition of secularism from "absence of religion" to "equal respect to all religions". But that shows the failure of the first definition they wrongfully pursued for many many years. Sonia, Lalu are wearing Big Hindu religious Symbols (like Threads on hand, tika on forhead). Hindu religious symbol has made a comeback in Govt Functions. Pranab Mukherjee, the defense minister, recently opened an Indian Army recruiting center amist Chanting of vedic mantra. It was not done by a George Fernandaz.

I agree with you that Gandhian method of Societal tolerance is the ONLY solution for bringing tolerance back to Indian Society. But will Muslims, Christians accept that? Gandhi as you know, used lots of religious symbol in Politics, programme.

I think, If Kashmir, Bangladesh remains tolerant, and don't fuel further intolerance, demography (religious composition of people) remains same, Muslims accept Birth control in Bigger Numbers, Evangelial/Missionarues stop their conversion drive....there should be no reason why we would see further intolerance. So, in a way, solution now lies in the hands of Minorities. How much, how quick they can accept anxieties of majority community.
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
69
My mistake. Re-Conversion in UP was in the tune of 5000. It was based on The Pioneer report.
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
68
I would even say, that your "arrogant", "derogatory" discourse is helping Hindu nationalists immensely. Few Weeks back, in Secular Mulayam Singh's Uttar Pradesh, 50,000 (not a typo) Christians were Converted to Hinduism. All of their Churches, Schools were reconverted to Mandirs, Schools!!
he...he..Who will give you protection? Police? Political leaders? The later one are just for your vote, nothing else. I told about a story, remember, from Local media? A decision was taken in a Bihar Village (Rabri was CM then) in all party meeting, where Congress, BJP, RJD, JD(U), Naxalites, CPIM --everybody participated, and took the following decision: Christians are to be stopped, as they are creating problem.

A notice was served to few 100 houses who got converted to Christianity. VHP/RSS was called in, and everybody was now reconverted to Hinduism!

How does it sound, man? You read English press, which has less than 1% penetration. Have you ever read 1000s of newspapers published in regional languages? What do they write?

Man, how are Evangelicals treated in Kashmir Valley?...
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
67
Old_Mac>>Hindi will never be accepted in the South and therefore constitutes waste of energy and effort. The benefits of a common language are unclear and speculative, regardless of its advocates propaganda.

Firstly, 50% of Tamil & Hindi words are of common origin. For the rest of Tamil words, theye were NOT used to Spread Christianity, rather spread of Shaivaism. Remember that as well.

Mr. EVengelical..You are no lover of Dravidian Culture. Your Forefathers (European missionaries) devised this theory (see "Aryan and British India" by Thomas Traumann) to divide & rule, Conversion, and create hate amongst people towards their Culture. The story you are trying to tell is re-told again and again since last 200 years by Missionaries. If some of the Missionary written Books are printed today, there will be large scale rioting, as they are such derogatory to Indian Culture. You neither Love Hindu, Buddhist, or Sikh, Jaina Culture. Your Goal is to shed Crocodile tears, and instigate one group against another. Your hate towards Islam is legendary.

Now everybody is kicking Missionary/Evangelical's butt. CPIM has termed you "working with Anti-national elements" like ISI, Naxalites. CPI leader Bardhan has said: Missionaries are destroying tribal Culture. Congress-NCP Govt is now bringing new legislation in Maharashtra to regulate Missionary Money. Supreme Court virtually rejected "conversion" through allurement way back in 1979. Every state now can enact legal laws to stop Conversion. Its already enacted in Central Indian States where 85% of Indian Tribals(your hot target) live. Add VHP/RSS folks on the top of that.

Where will you hide, Mr. Evangelical? Even Outlook/Tehelka publish regular articles against Evengelical designs. Remember, some of those? You Even have problem with India's Minority Commission.
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
66
OM writes >> the idea that a language binds a country together is simple and shallow. It is only secular ideas that bind a country together

I disagree. While ideas (secular or otherwise) are the underlying binding force, the medium is often as important as the message. I've seen a lot of Indians who are comfortable communicating (with an open mind) if the other person can speak their language (Hindi, Tamil etc ) - blame it on their parochialism or anything else - it is a fact. That kind of bonding doesnt happen normally when they speak in English. The approach that i've seen so far is that English is for the formal matters and Hindi/vernacular languages for personal and other matters.

It is also not correct to say that there are no secular ideas that bind India. I think the goal/objective to see India emerge as an economic power and ideal/model secular democracy has a wide following.
prakash
Sydney, Australia
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
65
Minu Chatterji, you said "Events from Mumbai, latest position of Congree CM, show they will embrace more & more rightwing position of SS/BJP. There will be hardly any choice in next 10 years, if nothing changes."


When the BJP was in power, it tried to be centrist, to make the congress irrelevant. Earlier, when the Left was the primary challenger, congress positioned itself slightly left of center to suffocate the Left. The congress seems to trying that with the Rightwing now - especially where there is a strong right wing presence. Politics apart, there is a point in what you are saying as seen in the fact that in the past decade or so, the Rightwing became a bigger challenger than the Left. I read a analysis of this that with the end of cold war, the ideological identity became more irrelevant and the primacy of cultural identity became more relevant. The countries which were bitterly opposing each other ideologically, but identical culturally became closer in the post cold-war era. The Left knows this and have to deal with this. While the primacy and importance of culture is accepted, it does not necessarily mean a culture where muslims/christians have no place. It can be a loftier, composite, all-inclusive culture as Gandhi envisaged. That will also be a culture where all individuals are free to practice, choose, proclaim, debate, discuss all religions and ideologies in an environment of mutual love and search for truth. It is a culture where there is a belief in basic human dignity and a belief in goodness of each human being (regardless of religion/caste/race etc) unless proved otherwise on a individual basis - not a collective judgement based on religious affiliation. In fact this is a cultural battle seen in India for many decades now. It is this battle we have to wait and see who wins.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
64
Eyunni..Much appreciate your views. I read it multiple times. Your take on linguist is interesting, and very true. But don't worry, we are not becoming a vassal state of USA/UK, as you rightly pointed out: we then would cease to be Indian. We already have enough intellectual framework, discourse of Indian Nationalism left to straighten those Issues. We will continue to be Indian.

Here is an example, how first Indian Scientific research Institute was founded.

The story of Basu Vigyan Mandir (The Bose temple of Science)

Scientist JC Bose founded "Basu Vigyna Mandir" at Calcutta, to pursue Advanced Scientific Research. And look what he produced. Its said, that Sister Nivedita, the greatest disciple of Swami Vivekanand played an advisory role in the design of this research Institute. I quote from "Defiance & Conformity of Science" by Prof Ashis Nandy.

The Bose Institute was an ornate, temple like structure meant 'to search for the ultimate unity which permeates the universal order and cuts across the animal, plant and inanimate lives'. Bose played a large part in the design of the building, being greatly influenced by Ajanta and Ellora. The institute had a special platform or "vedi" for its founder to sit and meditate on. In its garden were deer, peacocks, and 'talking birds'. Near the entrance to the institute was a sculpted relief of Nivedita who had hoped and planned with Bose for such a institute. Under the relief, Bose had secretly buried a small Box containing Nivedita's Ashes. As emblems of the temple, Bose Selected sculptured representation of Sun God (A symbolic pointer to the identification that had been his first bridge between Bhakti or devotion and knowledge), The Vajra or thunderbolt (the weapon with which Indra fought evil in the form of demons and a traditional symbol of legitimate Fury), and "Ardha Amlaki", the Buddhist Symbol of Total renunciation. Some of these Symbols were said to be Nivedita's Suggestions.

This is hugely symbolic importance. Many similar things can be said about Srinivas Ramanujam as well.

So, Eyunni...we will retain the inner core which make India. There will be very few, Westernised, City Dweller (note: a small fraction) who would even like to mimic Western Table manners, Toilet Styles,dress, speak-dream-read-write in English alone. But they don't determine what is India. Its already determined by people like Bankimchandra, Gandhi, Vivekanada, CR and many others.

I am sure, when its explained to any Indian, they have enough intelletual capacity to choose rightly.
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
63
Abishek (Raipur) writes:

>"regional chauvanism and endemic parochialism"

>>Can you please give some great insight into these great words that you have written. I would like to know more about your knowledge of indian history, hinduism, indian tradition, culture and art.

This is a forum to discuss and debate ideas. Not a place for intellectual exhibitionism. Talk to Northies, they will tell you they are better and sneer at South Indians. Talk to the South Indians, they will tell you they are better than the Northies and call them NIBs (North Indian Bastards). That is regional chauvanism. Most Indians can't think beyond their self, caste and village.

>What kind of tragic comedy are you talking about let us know.

>>We lesser third world mortals would be highly obliged if you excellency can give us your great virtue of advise to we poor dirty and filthy indians.

Sarcasm is not your strong suit. Its heavy handed and crude. Therefore it fails. Stick to rhetorical devices that you can use, if there are any.

India, with more than its fair share of bright people, can't get its act together because they have a knack for going past the main issues and straight to the tertiary issues.

Hindi will never be accepted in the South and therefore constitutes waste of energy and effort. The benefits of a common language are unclear and speculative, regardless of its advocates propaganda. More importantly, it has too high of an opportunity cost which prevents the development of a handful of ideas that all Indians, regardless of language, caste, religion, region can subscribe to. Then it would be able to unleash the capabilities of individuals to thrive within that framework of shared ideas. The absence of that framework is a tragic comedy.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
62
Its not just catching up with advanced countries. Its surpassing them and selling our technology to them that will make us big player and super power. That can be acheived when there is little friction in what we speak, what we think and what we write. That means all should be done ina mother tongue. Thats the reason why european countries and japan and even china are not encouraging to educate themselves in english medium. Once they do it the productivity of its citizens will come down drastically. Then they loose the capability to invent which is not invented by others. So even if its costly to upgrade their languages on par with english and invent vocabulary they are doing it. They are smart they know that point. Otherwise why they are just shedding their mother tongues and clinging to english like we are doing., Coz they know that its not outsourcing they have to do. They have to invent to be in the race and establish their supremacy. No tell me abhishek who are fools. We or those big players who make fastest cars and trains and make jumbojets, war fare technology in their mother tongue..........
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
61
If you see carefully the linguistic research in india came to a halt when suddenly in the 18th century europeans started making breakthroughs in science and technology. Since british empire is vast they started upgrading english. But most of the science and technology started not in england but in places like italy, germany and otehr european countries in pockets. Even now original literature of the discoveries is in german, italian and other languages. And the formation of a vast independent country called USA has made the english language develop rapidly. What the british and americans did is they acted very fast and upgraded english and took the vacabulary from german and other languages where science and technology has just started developing and anglicized them and later they themselves involved hugely in scientific discoveries and so they coined english terms for what ever they discovered. Because of that jump start by UK and USA english has that status now. It does not mean that science and technology is only in english. Its there in russian, germany french and japanese mainly and these are also major players including china. Only india lagged behind as we didnot catch up with the europeans in 18th century. Ofcourse muslim countries also lost the race so they are now like india are unable to catch up west fast. Atleast India is little better that it quickly stolen english from britishers. That would be a good begining but if it sticks to that copy strategy the results will not be that great. Like russians or japanese or germans it has to comeup with its mass sceintific englightenment to discover new technologies which can only done through the education in ones mother tongue. The other option is erase all languages of india and become a vassal to US and UK. Then the mother tongue of all indians would be english and then mass scientific temper picks up. Given the lazy attitude and apathy of indians one day i would not be surprised to see that english would be the motehr tongue of all indians. Then india wont be india. It would something else. A sort of vassal or satrap state to US and UK.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
60
Yes minu., All this hype about english, inglish wont lost long. Once the nations are stabilised and fear of war is gone they try to stabilise and improvise their language and heritage. Indians got suddenly exposed to the outside world and know only britishers. Slowly they will get back to their roots. I guess slowly lingistic research will pick up in india. But it still an enormous task to upgrade each and every indian languge on par with european and japanese languages in terms of the vocabulary suitable for modern era. But that requires lot of determination, passion and love towards thier mother tongue. Given the lazy attitude of indians in general the task is difficult. So I think we will remain as a outsourcing country for advanced countries for some years.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
59
Min(now) Chatterboxji writes:

>>Why I am saying this to you again? You will never learn, as I have said these same words 10 times in last one month. Your only motto in life, is to hate all of these, and burn into eternal desire to Convert Indians!!..he..he..

A crock of crap repeated, no matter how many times, remains a crock of crap. Your speculation on my motto in life betrays your limitations as a human being.

Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
58
EYUNNI..Your example of Russia, Japan, Germany are very true. As you said, now technology will handle all these connectivity of different laguages, translation, transliteration etc. I believe, Indian languages like Hindi will have a much bigger role in near future with ascending Indian Economic Clout. I understand, in European Union Parliament, there are more than 10 different languages officially. It will be a huge logistical nightmare initially, but they have no other option.
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
57
Oh forgot russians and exsoviet union. Believe me guys russian engineers, scientists and mathematicians are much soughtafter guys in USA. I know a russian guy. He does not know how to speak few words of english. He just struggles hard. He has a big russian and english dictionary. He is a great engineer and a sound mathematician. The company for which he works just dont want to loose him. There are many such russians who are in usa where they are considered hot property.
When Vladimir Putin comes to india and speaks to the CEOs of big companies and hopefully with Abhishek they all should use some translators to listen to him. And may be they should educate putin of the importance of english and advice him to make some Russglish in their country and make a mokery of russian....
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
56
Old _Mac writes>> There are no such ideas to bind India together. Attempt to make either Hindi (Hinduism isn't far behind such an idea) serve that purpose will only result in a tragic comedy.

Mr. Evengelical..Its a mistake to think that the idea of a nation requires the prior presence of a national State. Its called "Category Mistake", where underlying values/ideas of one period is applied onto another period. Even then, the biggest Empire in India was not ruled by British/Mughals, but by Maurya Dynasty, some 2500 years back.

As I said elsewhere, Indians share common classical language, Common history, common literature, art and architechture, law & jurisprudence, rites and rituals, ceremonies and sacraments, fairs and festivals, land of their Seers and Prophets..so on and so forth. This is their common civilization, and that binds them.

Why I am saying this to you again? You will never learn, as I have said these same words 10 times in last one month. Your only motto in life, is to hate all of these, and burn into eternal desire to Convert Indians!!..he..he..
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
55
Abhishek: What ever is there in english its there in european languages and germany. Purchase any expensive sceintific instrument or a software or any electronic toy. The manual will be there in european languages, chinese, japanese except in indian languges. France builds Airbus and sells to world. The engineering of that is in french. Ok they will give you an english manual if u want. Not a big deal. They have translating instruments. Engineering of japanese cars is in japanese. The engineer who designs and builds those cars dont know a single word in english. Europeans, japanese and chinese are seriously interested in learning english as a language so that they can communicate with international people in a betterway. But not to do their engineering and software in english. Abhishek should visit japan or france or spain or italy. He just cannot speak with anyone there. Coz no one speaks with him. BTW the software companies like VIPRO, infosys, TCS are planning to open their branches in latin america, japan, china and europe. First thing these companies are doing is training its employees to read and write the respective languages of that countries and if possible try to write software in those languages., Where is your english and Inglish there abhishek!!!WORLD IS MULTIPOLAR NOT UNIPOLAR ABHISHEK. WAKE UP.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
54
Minu Chaterji: I greatly appreciate your outlook.
Inglish is like a hippy cutting and bellbottom pant culture of 70's. Its just a fashion to speak in Inglish for sometime. The major problem is the structured languages in india (which are our official languages recognised by Govt. Of india are not developing to suit modern times). Our linguistic experts are just not simply inventing new words, educating and popularising them and instead borrowing loan words from english. Where as european languages are developing at a rapid pace. You have german, italian, french words for all scientific terms including weights, molecular biology, mathematics etc., Israel which got independence with us has taken the rennovation of ancient Hebrew on war footing and they invented hebrew words for all scientific terms used in english. I know that they have a strong Agricultural research centre. To pursue B.S in agriculture in Israel any foriegn student has to undergo training in hebrew for a year and then start the B.S coz the B.S Agriculture in isreal is only in Hebrew. Abhishek hasnot seen the nonenglish world. The SAP software is in German initially. Similarly all software produced by the companies have european versions. Indians have to step out and see other countries other than english speaking countries. Still Nigerians who were colonised by French think that the whole world speaks french just like we indians think whole world speaks english. BTW abhishek software companies dont prefer germany coz of less population and independent attitude of germany not because india is speaking english.. Its cheap labour in india which attracts them. Also we write software in english and after that americans convert that into european languages and sell it.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
53
Abhishek...I agree with you to a level, that there will be more "English" word in daily life of Indians. But in the process, it will be Indianized. It happened to all cultures, including ours. Many times in our long history. English is just the new entrant.

Its not limited to "English" language alone. The conscious decision taken by early nationalists was to import lots from the "Europe" to change the outer core of our Culture, Religion. Because, they knew, as we lacked rationalism, materialism, we became of Subject nation for long. All these for preserving the "inner core" of our Culture, Religion. But, how much of "Europe" to be imported will be decided by us, depending on situation. Too much will destroy our Inner Core. Too little will not make sufficient change in Material Outlook. We need "optimum" Quantity of Europe.

Yesterday, Swami Ranganathananda, the Head of Ramakrishna Order passed away. Many say, he was the most powerful speaker after Swami Vivekanand. If you have ever read his books, Audio tapes, you will see a constant theme: Bring rationalism into yor religion, culture. Be Scientific in your Spirit. Go and knock at the doors of learning, science. And this is your Inner Core: Vendanta. Master these as well, and this will be helpful to you become an ideal man. Because, the ideal man can only be produced by synthesis of material Culture of the West and Spritual Culture of India. If you have enough intellect, wisdom, you even have the rights to append new thoughts to those.

If Hinglish/English/Inglish can help us in this project, its welcome. But I doubt. Sanskrit has more words to express philosophy than Latin, Greek and German (three most Philosophy friendly European Language) together. English is too incomplete in that ragard and thus don't have enough vocabulary to express Philosphy, our inner core.

Hope, I could explain what I think on this issue. We have total freedom to do anything, as long as it helps us materially, straighten things up, rationalize our Culture/religion...But preserve our Core. That's the Project of Modern India.

PV Narshima Rao, the only Scholar PM we have had so far, expressed it eloquently with great economy of Word: "CONTINUITY".

Thanks
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 27, 2005 12:00 AM
52
Mr Old Mac let me take some issues with you and lets see what you have to say about these issues. You are simply preposterous. Anyways

"regional chauvanism and endemic parochialism"

Can you please give some great insight into these great words that you have written. I would like to know more about your knowledge of indian history, hinduism, indian tradition, culture and art.

Please try to illustrate further about these great words have you have written

"Attempt to make either Hindi (Hinduism isn't far behind such an idea) serve that purpose will only result in a tragic comedy."

What kind of tragic comedy are you talking about let us know.

We lesser third world mortals would be highly obliged if you excellency can give us your great virtue of advise to we poor dirty and filthy indians.

Further what data do you have to claim the following, if you can give me some study, data or research which supports your below mentioned claim we indians will be highly obligated for your good research.

"The idea of Hindi as a national language has no merit. South Indians aren't concerned about Hindi merely as a language."

Please give us light on all the above issues. If you have the mettle take up the issues. I will provide my data with my arguments first you come with substantial arguments on which you have based you statement.

Thanks

Abhishek


Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
51
english is a funny language. those who speak it are funny and those who comment are silly.
scriptkiddie
scriptkiddie, scriptkiddie
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
50
Prakash writes:

>>The idea of a national language has a lot of merits and Hindi is the only Indian language that can be one. My point here is that if Hindi is to be made a national language, be sensitive to what the Tamilians think/want.

The idea of Hindi as a national language has no merit. South Indians aren't concerned about Hindi merely as a language. They rightly perceive Hindi as a vehicle for Northern chauvanism. They reject the implicit superiority embedded in it. Practically, they see no competitive advantage globally by learning Hindi. English is a global lingua franca for any productive task which requires collaboration. Ask any mother in the world, not just India, who wants a better life for her kids, the vote for English will be overwhelming.

There is no reason why English can't serve the same purpose in India given its regional chauvanism and endemic parochialism.

In conclusion, the idea that a language binds a country together is simple and shallow. It is only secular ideas that bind a country together. There are no such ideas to bind India together. Attempt to make either Hindi (Hinduism isn't far behind such an idea) serve that purpose will only result in a tragic comedy.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
49
I understand Minu what you are saying. What I am trying to extrapolate is what has happened earlier in india. This thing looks inevitable. You look at bollywood movies, TV serials, advertisements, newpapers in every mass communication this mode of communication has entered. As far as hindi is concerned well it will always be there and we will have some form of language but i dont know what. But looking at the global business order, needs of education, employment and also the relative flexibility of indians it looks very likely that we will adapt to this language in manner that suits us.

See we indians have changed our language several times. Hindi is a very recent language not even 800 years old. Urdu is even more recent it reached its peak and then waned down very fast. At one time Urdu looked to be the most rich language in india even more than sanskrit or hindi, but urdu vanished, hindi is very prominent today and sanskrit is not even breathing but ya several hindu philosophical teachings are much better understood if you understand sanskrit.

I dont know what is going to happen of our interaction with english, but one thing is sure the level of english usage has seen a rise in our society. Now the point is that we cannot express ourselves in like british or american english, it is simply not possible. It does not carry the meaning that we want. So what it does is that we had a khicdhi paroos. Just like the mixture of hindi and urdu in northern india.

We indians are not dogmatic about our culture or language(or i should say fixated), so what it does it that naturally we are attracted to change our mode of communication and this is one of the other reason why this land has so many languagues. It is even astounding to think that the dialect of the language changes after every 200-300 kms. The reason is that we have had closed communities and also a very democratic system from the very bigenning and further any person who moves from one place to another learns the language of that place within one generation.

You take a tamilian living in north he will speak in a better hindi than you or me can. Take a bengali living in Bombay. He will speak better marathi than bengali. I have some tamil friends from rourkela and you will never know that he is tamilian unless he starts talking in tamil with his tamil friends.

This shows that we indians have a very good ability in lingual skills and that is why we are multilingual and can communicate in several languages even though it is one of the toughest thing to happen.

I am not being dogmatic and this is not my agenda that iglish should become indian language. What i am saying that looking at india's history this looks very much possible that we will very fast adopt to a version of english through which we will be able to communicate and most importantly express ourselves as indians. The point is that it is not very difficult to happen. This land has 18 major languages and the regional languages are very strong. In a way hindi is a regional language which has several regions because it came from sanskrit and spread more far and wide. So as English has been thrust on us and now we have become proficient in this language(relatively) then we should use the oppurtunity to make this language our own. It does create some difficulty but in the global world this looks much more beneficient to have to greater prosperity and also for national integration as still there are several people in india with whom i can only talk in english and no other language. Though I should say that the usage of hindi as the second national language is increasing a lot even in southern states. Now I can talk in hindi with my tamil friends also and they are becoming increasingly very good and i go and watch some rajnikant movies with them though tamil is definitely much more difficult to understand.

Abhishek

Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
48
Abhishek: It doesn't make sense to switch from Our Language to English and transform it to Hinglish. You are correct: we are very adpative. But it will be overkill.

Firstly, its culturally suicidal. We cannot translate every word from (say) Sanskrit, or Hindi to English or Hinlish. The meaning behind that word will be missing.

It doesn't make Business sense as well. In absolute terms, Indians speaking English is already more than Combined Population of AUS-NZ. I think, very shortly, India will be the country where maximum people will be able to understand English. There simply isn't enough Job available in the world, which can sustain "Hinglish". Most of the Jobs wouldn't even require English, like manufactuting, Agriculture which will always be mainstay of India. Even in Service sector (which is growing) Indian Laguages are growing in leaps and bounds. British Airways didn't have any Hindi Speaking attendants some 15 years back. Now, its almost mandatory. Busy European Airports now invariably have people who can communicate in Hindi at the receiving/departure desks. Hindi is not looked down upon in Elite Circle, as it was (say) 15 years back. Its Indian self assertion as well, which will grow with our economic progress.

Cultually, language is now a very important thing. It has got new lease of life from Cyber revolution. Technology is handling it superbly, and expanding its application. Interpretors, Transliteration, Conversion between languages will become more refined, affordable as we progress. So, we will have less worry in the future about interperobality.

In NY City School district, 92 different languages are taught. Yes, English(Hinglish) will be the business language. We would use use more English words in our day-to-day life. English will also import more and more Indian words. But there will be enough Scope for Indian Languages in our education, application in Society, business, life.

I agree with UR Ananthamoorthy on this regard.
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
47
3. What should be done:

We have to vigorously expand the scope of Indian laguages (specially Hindi) in Electronic,Cyber World and as a front end . It should be made more accessible for day to day life, Electronic Forms, petition etc. Microsoft has started bunding Hindi (and some other Indian language fonts) in their latest Software bundle like MS Word. In Linux based Environment, I think, its already a reality. Or very close to that. There are softwares available which even can Translate (or Transliterate) from One Indian language to another. These sort of things are to be prioritized for data transfer between them.

Many years back, I knew a person named Dr. Cooper who did some poineering work on Indian Fonts in Software in Pune. CDAC has done some great work in this regard as well. Almost all latest Publishing technologies can now accomodate all Indian laguages. There have been a huge qualitative (as well as Quantitative) change in vernacular Press, maganizes. They are more crispy, more glittering, more readable, more color etc..

What does all these mean? Regional laguages are dying? Or they successfully used this new revolution of Information?

I just checked Google. They are showing Tips & Messages in the following Indian laguages:
Bengali, Bihari, Hindi, Gujarati, Kannada, Malayam, Marathi, Nepali, Oriya, Punjabi, Sindhi, Tamil, Telegu, Urdu.
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
46
2. Is English Something "Unique"?

Why there is so much "stress" on English? I understand that its the communication link with the outside world for business Transactions, science, technology etc. But we should remember, not so long ago (200 years back), that position belonged to Persian/Arabic, because that was the langua-Franka of the Elite, Business etc. If China grows according to its promises, should that mean, we would stop English, and switch to Chinese? This defy any logic.

Sure, we need English today. But to compete with the world, does it mean, we have to eat/speak/dream in English (or Inglish)? The Author's idea reminds me to those 19th Century Westernised Elite who even immitated Western Style Toilet, Food Habit, Table manners!

Now, IIT Entrance tests doesn't include English proficiency test, as it was required some 10 years Back. If one Visits 100s of new private/Govt Technology Colleges, we can find students coming from interior Villages who have had little English Skill when they passed out 10+2 level. But by their sheer Intelligence, hardwork, they make it up, and become successful. Afterall, its technical Knowledge, and not some English Extempore where vocabulary needs to be tested!

So, where exactly is the problem? Is there any shortage of English Speakers, or workers? If so, what's the volume of that. It will be in terms of Lakhs (at the most) for BPO industry etc. Let those industry tie-up with some group, and organize some Courses etc. Even of the whole BPO industry comes to India, it will not create more than 50 lakh Jobs, which is just peanuts in Indian Scenarion!
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
45
You yourself have agreed to the point that Urdu was a street language which has been developed into a full-blown developed language in india. Why do you think that cannot happen with Inglish. Urdu was just like Inglish maybe even worse. Because atleast there is a phonetic similarity between English and hindi. Both fall in the category of indo-european language.

The points that you have raised are valid. I had problems in working with english as a language and had to make extra effort to learn it. Though it is a different matter that the same was the case with hindi.

I agree to your point that extra effort has to be made especially during pre-school or primary school years to make a student learn two languages. His mind is more confused, where in the home he learns some other language and at school he has to learn someother langauage.

But this is not what my post wants to say. I am talking about the future. The future is definitely not going to be a pure british or american english in india. But english will become a major mode of communication in india.

One of the other reasons apart from the nature of indians to mold themselves according to the needs of the situation is the expediency of usage of english. We as indians have no national language. Even today we cannot talk of hindi as a national language because thay will be like trying to impose extra burden on a particular section of indian society to learn that language.

As you would have known indian independence struggle was fought through english. Becuase this is the only common mode of communication across india.

So my point is that the future lies in English and not hindi because that can never be accepted as a national language even though its popularity may increase over time. The global world will force the choice of english as the official language in this country and other countries also. Further we have a headstart and we can complete this transformation in some 2-3 decades. When urdu came that did not mean that hindi died or sankrit vanished. And the most simple point here is that this is the direction that things are going and being a person who wants to resist the obvious is not the right thing to do. If french or german donot want to learn english or maybe adapt to english then they will be definitely be at a certain degree of loss. Not to say that we ourselves dont have a unique language which is spoken by everybody in this country.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
44
Well Mr Eyunni you did not get the import of my posts.

I had given such a detailed description of the issue because of your reply that french do not speak among themselves in english. I wanted to say that we indians if find virtue of something are very quick to adopt and change(that is what i wanted to say when i said that we can identify, internalise and assimilate very fast, as regards buddhism it went to China there was no invasion of china to make them adopt buddhism it is very different, it is not called adoption or assimilation, it is called taking a system as a gift or being inspired by the system, here we are adapting and surviving, we are not doing this because we are happy, but because we are forced to do this).

I had given you the example of spanish people that was invasion, this is a survival tactics not something which anybody would do on his own will. No culture, country or people would like to change its mode of communication.

If french are not making there country more adaptable to the global world then they are going to loose heavily. Indeed one of the reasons why France and Germany are going to fall behind india and china is becuase of there lack in communication skills in the next two decades. The global world is increasingly going to work in English and for a prosperous country you have to learn english. AS you said that French have to learn english if they have to work in tandem with the other world.

Well I have worked in a company called Eaton Corporation in Minneapolis USA. In this company they have some design work being done in Germany but they are not expanding there. They are vigorously expanding in India. The reason is the lack of communication skills of germans in English. There are only a few high level executives who can communicate effectively in English. Further as you said about scientific terms in local language. This is one of the major hurdles that the executives face over there. They have to change the language according to them and this entails more time and extra cost. If france and germany are going to be stubborn about this language issue they are going to not only loose there language but someday there culture also

The chinese are trying very hard to learn English and get all there citizens learn the basics of this langauge otherwise in the global order it is going to be difficult to compete head to head. We indians have a headstart in this regard. We have almost 100 years headstart. Countries in europe are not realising the importance of learning english because today they are rich and there system works with there local language, but with asian powers coming into there own in the first half of next century and the only mode of communication being english they will have to hone up there skills in this area and at that time they are increasingly going to find it difficult to work competitively in any kind of techinical or business related areas.

So try to look into my post in this context, that we indians have the capability of adopting, changing and then making it our own. As regards your attitude towards grammer and literature. Well Indians have the ability to develop more languages as and when it suits them and make it phonetically and gramatically correct.

Panini made one of the most rich language. Urdu and hindi have been developed in this land and so as regards the point of view of grammer we can develop it. Just like American English has been developed and is very distinct from British English similarly we will have an appropriate, phonetically and gramatically correct english(inglish) which the world will recognise.

Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
43
Let me divide the response to this article into different segments:

1. When to Start English in School.

The author writes>>Unless you acquire the nuances of English before 10, you are disadvantaged.

I think, the whole discussion revolves around this basic point. Nobody is against English (or Inglish or may be Hinglish) here. Issue here is: when Should English Education start in India. Author's observation is not based on scientific Linguist Study. Its already proven that, English from Class 1 or Class 4/5 makes hardly any difference when English proficiency evaluated at (say) Class 10. Some of the reasons are :

(a) Students pick up very little skill in English (rather any second language apart from their mother toungue) till they reach Class 4/5. So, when evaluated at Class 10, it doesn't make much difference.

(b) Students perform better with Single Language (mother tongue) at the start of their study. Getting rid of second language initially also reduces burden from Students in their formative years.

(c) As such English teaching (like in any language) is under going much change. Better scientific methods are available today which help students to "grasp" it for their future study, economic, job activities.

The so called "failures" of teaching English from (say) Class 5, is not because it was started late. But because: our Education System is broken. There are horrendous, horrendous data available on teacher/student ratio, School facilities, teachers attendance, Student attendance. The whole system is literally broken. For example, in West Bengal, 95% Education budget is spent on Paying salary to the teachers & Non-teaching Staff leving very little for Education. Even at Higher education level, Students/Non-teaching Staff ration in Universities is 2:1. For every 2 Students there is one Non-teaching Staff.

I am pretty sure, if proper funding is made on primary education, and those above mentioned imbalances are removed (reduced), English taught from SClass 1 or Class 5 will not make any difference.

So, at best, the author's claim is spurious. Its not based on data, or reality. I support Marxists & RSS on this regard. Both of them suggest: English should be started at Class 5 (or may be even in higher grades).
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
42
Minu

There is a good amount of vernacular chauvinism around the country. Thankfully, either the majority of population has other more pressing concerns or do not agree with them.

The cultural unity/Unity in Diversity is a concept which we will claim (and rightly so) when we talk to "outsiders" but amongst ourselves we'll keep fighting for more space for our narrow/parochial interests.
prakash
Sydney, Australia
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
41
Prakash: Thanks for good "humane" analysis.

However, I think this divide is (rather was) more of political than Cultural. I started my Career in Bangalore some 18 years back, and still can manage few words in Kanada, specially the numbers. I used to remember Tamil Numerals as well. Because I would have got free smile from the Shop-keeper with my outrageous Kanada if I said: Give me 5 Eggs please. I think, people at personal, friend level pick up lots of local language, culture. I still cherish my Southern days.

I am sure, it would have been same, if I were in Chennai or Triruvanantapuram. It comes from understanding of local Culture which has more similarity than differences with other parts of the country. There is no place for "arrogance" here. Tamilians are one of the most wonderful, gifted people I have ever seen.

Whatever Barriers were/are still there, they are being dismantled by modern means of communication, statecraft, media, free movement of people etc. Literally 1000s of people from North/East take tour of the South everyday and vice-versa. And they understand Madurai, Kanyakumari, Belur/Halebid etc and thus the similarities. Nobody is going to replace Tamil(or Bengali) by Hindi. But that Political "Hard" artificial separateness now has become more "soft" in Nature. The emphasis is now on Similarities, common-ness, rather than divisiveness.

One Ramanand Sagar beaming to Billion people is a very very powerful weapon. After all, these two Epics shared by people for 1000s of years is the Original Source of cohesiveness, Cultural Unity. Equally important is: everybody has their own "little" spin to the story, and thus localized it. Nation-State is just a modern construct less than 350 years of history. I wouldn't worry about it, unless vested groups whip up sentiments. But recent events indicate, there are less chances for that happening.
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
40
Gorgon - I didnt not say that we should not debate the topic. Lets have a healthy debate. However,I thought the stereotyping didnt help.

The idea of a national language has a lot of merits and Hindi is the only Indian language that can be one. My point here is that if Hindi is to be made a national language, be sensitive to what the Tamilians think/want. This will include shedding some of the misconceptions about Tamilians. Similarly, if you have a problem with what we as Tamilians think/do, convey the point clearly, without ridicule.

regards
prakash
Sydney, Australia
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
39
Raking up the Hindi - Tamil debate was not my intention and I apologize for any hurt that this may have brought. I was just stating an obvious experience and trying to understand why english cannot be a neutral language for all Indians? After all learning a Southern language is difficult for a North Indian and vice versa.
gorgon
Hawaii, USA
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
38
Gorgon says >> Have you ever tried speaking to a Tamilian in Hindi even by mistake- the cold stare can freeze you on the spot

Just as a way of a background - I am married to a Tamilian and have done my schooling in Tamil Nadu

What you say is a gross over generalization. Such a statement only reflects the lack of sensitivity towards the issues faced by a Tamilian and is the prime reason why it sparks anti-Hindi feelings in a Tamilian.

First, the origins of Tamil and Hindi are different (the grammar and structure are different) and hence it is difficult for a Tamilian to learn Hindi without a lot of incremental effort

Two, Hindi has not proven itself to be any more beneficial to Tamilians than English. There is an economic rationale to learning English, which has simply not been disproven by the Hindi speaking group. Hence, Hindi, at best, could only be a third language for Tamilians.

Third, the condescending tone of Hindi-speakers is very much resented in Tamil Nadu. Of all the Hindi-speaking software engineers etc who have moved to South Indian capitals, very few try to learn the local language. So this preaching about learning the "third" language is the preserve of only the Hindi speaking genre. When it comes to learning the regional languages, the hindi-speakers display an appalling insensitivity. So, it would be helpful, if the Hindi-speaking population follows what it preaches.

Fourth, despite all the above factors, south indians like I have learnt Hindi. This is inspite of the Mahmood inspired ridicule that we face when interacting with the Hindi-speaking people.

Fifth, have you heard of Dakshin Bharat Hindi Prachar Sabha in Chennai? Just look at the enrolment there before you make up your mind. You'll see a lot of Tamilians signing for exclusive Hindi language courses outside of their academic curriculum and they spend time in addition to their school to learn the language. They dont need your encouragement. But save your sarcasm for some others.

hence, comments like what you just said, can trigger a painful feeling, which is certainly not going to help your objective.

so, the cold stare you may get from a Tamilian does have a background, which you can understand if you care to.

regards
prakash
Sydney, Australia
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
37
By the way, Hindi is not my mother tongue either. We didn't study Hindi in School. But Hindi Film made him as well as me, aware of Hindi.
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
36
Some one will aruge with me that what wrong in having english as a medium for a kid and a kid can learn 2-3 languages simultaneously at an young age. Yes I agree that kids can learn 2-3 languages and multilingual approach is beneficial for kid. What is wrong is making the kid learn science, arts in english which is alien to him and above that asking him to express his ideas and feelings in an alien language like english at a very early stage. Thats detrimental and majority of the kids find it difficult and loose interest. So after sometime due to examination prssure kids just memorise english sentences and vomit in the exams with out any basic or indepth understanding of what they are studying. So a solid 10 years would be wasted in just memorising but not in creative thinking. Next 10-20 years he would be matured to express in english but by that time it would be too late and slowly he becomes a technician eventhough he would be an engineer and ends up in a BPO office or some contract technician job under some one. What outcome would you expect from that background!!!!! A nobel prize!!! Ofcourse there are exceptions. I am telling about the majority of the kids. If the parents are educated and have time then they translate all these english matter in books to their mother tongue and tell the kids like stories so the kid picks up and excels. Those kids you can see as toppers and better technicians than rest. Thats the story in India. Why wait for me towrite. See your own lifes. You will see what I am telling. Or ask the ecucational psychologists they will tell u more clearly what is going on and what is this Inglish is about., Not this author Gurucharan Das. Edcuational psychologits are the better persons to comment on this Inglish not these partime half knowlege authors like gurucharan das.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
35
>>Have you ever tried speaking to a Tamilian in Hindi even by mistake- the cold stare can freeze you on the spot.

I have many Tamil Friends here in East Coast, and we generally speak in Hindi, unless some American (or somebody who don't understand Hindi) is present. One of them even teaches his American co-worker Hindi informally.
Minu Chatterji
Kolkata, India
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
34
For every problem there is a solution. If tamilians have a problem with hindi there is a solution for that. That has to be find. "How fast we can find the solutions to our problems and how effective that solutions would be" will decide whether we are a thrid world country (underdeveloped, developing etc) or an advanced country. How many problems we indians have solved effectively after independence. What we do is just keep quite and let things happen by themselves and keep analysing whats happening. Today Inglish happend tomorrow Hitalian will happen and we dont act but just watch and surrender. Just like our cricket team. No plans to outsmart opposition but just play as one wishes. By luck if we win its fine else we loose. That inaction is the sign of a third world country not the sign of an advanced country. Lets see USA. They map every nook and corner., They have a tag on every citizen. They can in principle keep track of every immigrant and citizen. Even if its 60 percent efficent the results would be great. Like i said planning, problem identification, solving and timing determines if we are a third world country or an advanced country. Mostly we indains are mere spectators and everything is because we dont believe in ourselves and our lust for something which we think is green.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
33
>> Infact I found many americans and europeans and chinese got surprised when indians were speaking in english among themselves.

Pray tell me what language can a north Indian use to talk to one from the south? Have you ever tried speaking to a Tamilian in Hindi even by mistake- the cold stare can freeze you on the spot.
gorgon
Hawaii, USA
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
32
GORGON:Thats what the people should decide. Its already 50 yrs since independence. Yet we are undecided when north and south indian meet what language they should speak!!! That shoes again where we stand.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
31
Sau sonar ka yek lohar ka. Let me tell u the facts behind this inglish abhishek.

Nowadays every indian wants to go english speaking countries like usa, canada, australia, uk etc. No one wants to stay in india. To get to those countries they need english. So they start learning in english medium since kindergarten dreaming to reach those shores. Incidentally Parents dream more than the small kids to send their children there. They look green from india thanks to the bollywood song locations and hollywood movies. They feel as if dollars pour like rain in other countries. To become efficient in english these kids try to speak english at every possible level. Since their mother tongue intervenes and makes it impossible to just speak english in the society avoiding their mother tongue, this cocktail language called Hinglish or Inglish developed. PEOPLE IN INDIA DEFEND ENGLISH SAYING THAT ITS SPOKEN ALL OVER WORLD AND ITS LINGUA FRANQUA AND IF WE DONT SPEAK WE WILL LAG BEHIND etc is bullshit. Basically they want to venture into english shores and leave India. Thats the real intension. When u tell europe or southamerica is free of english they refuse to believe.

Now BPO jobs are also there in india so people compromise that ok., if we dont go to english shores we atleast get some receptionist job in a BPO firm with a fat pay check.... So certainly inglish becomes a major force to recon with as abhishek said because we are living in a makebelieve world and not that we cannot see the greatness of our own structured, wellconstructed, gramatically sound indian langauges. We allow inglish to happen in our own backyard outof our own lust to foriegn countries and its riches which arised out of our own ignorence and wrong judgement about world nationas especially english speaking nations.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
30
With this cocktail languages indians can only become techinicians and operators not inventors. Thats why world quickly recognised and made india the bpo head quarters. Coz with our basic education in english we can do some back office jobs only not some breathtaking nobel winning inventions coz our thought pattern totally got disturbed when our kids venture into english instead of his or her mother tongue to understand the nature but not his mother tongue.
I see kids in other countries happly learning everything in their mother tongue and enjoying life but india the kids are under pressure, stress, fear and constant insecurity and a push from their parents and teachers to express themselves in a language alien to them. Nothing can be painful than that. This tells how much ignorent we are and whrere we are leading to., and where our lust for foriegn countries is leading to.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
29
Abhishek: All american products be it cocacola or microsoft or yahoo mail have their versions in all major european, japanese, chinese and hebrew languages except indian languages coz they find it not necessary to have in indian langauges coz its not important. WE ourselve feel its not important so why americans consider.

Please understand. English is an INTERNATIONAL LANGUAGE which means when two people of different countries meet they speak english not of same nationality. Infact I found many americans and europeans and chinese got surprised when indians were speaking in english among themselves. Some even asked me dont u guys have any language of ur own or or u still under britishers. Guys englishmen left our country long back. We are free now. Lets develop our own langages. Yes we need to learn english as a language with proper pheonetics to understand english and nonenglish speaking people.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
28
When people become stupid and loose sense thats the begining of the fall of a civilisation or a culture. Yes we are morons to take up some cocktail languages instead of highly evolved languges. Abhishek go to africa and see. They dont have a well structured languages. So what they are doing is they are mixing english with their underdeveloped languages and speak some cocktail. Some countries like nigeria mix french with their native language and make a cocktail and speak. They all do that because their own native language is weak and not sound like indian langauges. Africans are smart because they know that they dont have a great langauges on their side so they are amalgamating that with french or english. We ar stupid coz eventhough we have superior lingusistic base we want to amalgamate coz we are anable to see the gold coins sticking to our ass.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
27
Abhishek: What u are tellling is applicable to all cultures in the world not only hindus. Chinese also took budhism and modified it accordingly and started practicing their own version different from others. Similarly japaneese. I dont want to link religion, culture with language. Thats different.

Coming to language, i said french speak french in their country and speak frenglish with others like u and me. Why dont u visit europe and see for urself. They dont find it necessary to have english. Their administration, their medium of instruction, their science, arts, literature are all in their language. If u go there u gotto learn that language to survive. Else they will make u leave that place. In olden days there are not definite countries and always there is constant fear of war and elimination of people. So languages changed rapidly. But now we have definite grammer for all indian languages which is highly evolved than european languages. Panini codified sanskrit and made it superior interms of grammer and construction. Similary urdu which was once a camp language has evolved and became a proper language. Since the insecurities are less and war fear has nearly gone why not like other nations we develop our own languages and make them adaptable for modern living than making some hotchpotch, coktail language like inglish with out any substance or grammer and construction., Its like destroying a well constructed city and living in ruins coz its fashion to live in ruins than in a well constructed city.

Of all european languages french is much evolved and grammatically sound but less sound of any small indian langauge. So when we have already some 25 well structred languages why make a cocktail and spoil the structure.,
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
26
Ghulam: I know u are not wedded to any vocabulary coz u dont have full knowledge of any language be it urdu or english. U are basically defending urself by switching to english or urdu depending on ur convenience and word bank which u have in ur mind and smartly telling others that u speak what ever is comfortable to u., ie., sometimes urdu and sometimes english.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
25
So after the internalisation process will come the assimilation stage. In this stage we will start writing our culture in iglish. Like are gods and rthymes will change. Our scriptures and holy texts will get converted to this language. This is a very long thing. Maybe almost 500-1000 years may take for such a thing to happen. But it will ultimately happen.

See islamic invaders came they destroyed our temples. Called us hindus though we were sanatana dharmi we accepted them calling us hindus and what we did we resisted internally and turned those hindus around and made them a pain in there neck. Britishers came they tried to make us learn there ways. We learned it turned it around and made them to leave us(this is exactly what gandhi did he used british ways to make them leave, gandhi internalised and assimilated britishers and made it indian).

This civilization has been in existence for more than 5000 years without any break any change, because we dont resist change. We accept and internalise that change. There has been no civilization which has such a long history the reason is this unique method of internal resistance.

There is a very good proverb "Jo jhukte nahin hain who tut jate hain". The people who resist change get finished once and for all. The only thing that is constant is change. If you resist change you are finished.

Now let me get back to your french thing. The french do not speak in there english accent among themselves. Now what is the importance of french in today lingual environment. Nothing it is a small language which spoken by a european country. If they keep on with this purist attitude there language will loose any significance that they have and finally they will have to adapt in some or the other way.

English is a worldwide phenomenon and every body in this world in the global economy will have to learn this language in order to survive economically. Then why not change and make it yours and then rule over that language.

This is what Inglish is going to do. Today india is economically backward but we are growing and by 2050 we will have a very good economic weight.

So by that time when indian literature writers will write in inglish then the world will not only understand it but will also adopt to it. That is what is called assimilation of the langauge and make it yours own.

India word is an alien word imposed on us by greeks. Hindu word is an alien word imposed on us by muslims but we have all internalised all these concepts and made it according to the local culture. This is the strenght of our civilization and this is how we react and behave and this is how we should be behaving because any other way if we try to behave we will simply fail.

Think as an indian and not as a french or a german or american. Think in terms of local culture and local values and not some western philosophy.

I guess I have made my point more than clear. Would like to have your response.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
24
cont.....

>>Judgements of the Courts were public documents which could be criticised and commented upon in a fair and dignified manner, the apex Court said.

There is no legal requirement be that the comments/criticism be fair or dignified. If we had a competent judiciary, truly unfair and undignified comments will be ignored by the public and tarnish the authors' credibility.

>>Adding a rider, it said "before placing before public, whether on print or electronic media, all concerned have to see whether any such criticism has crossed the limits and if it has, then resist every temptation to make it public." Noting the tremendous reach of newspapers and electronic media, the Court said "it should not be treated as a licence to denigrate other instituions. Sensationalism is not unknown. Any attempt to make news out of nothing just for the sake of sensationalism has to be deprecated." "When there is an attempt to sensationalize particularly at the expense of those institutions or persons who from the nature of office cannot reply, such temptations has to be resisted and if not it would be task of the law to give clear guidance as to what is and what is not permitted," Justice Sabharwal said.

Perhaps these judges can resign and find a position that is subject to less public scrutiny.

>>Terming the confidence of people in judiciary as the main assets, which needed to be preserved at any cost,

I am willing the pay the cost of getting rid of incompetents in the judiciary.

>>Justice Sabharwal said any act which has a tendency to cause of loss of confidence in judiciary "deserves to be firmly curbed".

How about the act of continued recruitment and retention of incompetent boobs?

>>The apex Court said the present matter brought to fore the issue that right to freedom fo media was to be exercised responsibly and it was for the media to devise the mechnaism for such exercise. "Regarding the institution like judiciary, which cannot go public, media can consider having an internal mechanism to prevent these type of publications," he said.

Its precisely because the judiciary is opaque, it requires the utmost scrutiny, with minimal limitation on press inquiring into these matters. After all, their salaries and perks are paid at public expense and therefore should be accountable to public via press scrutiny.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
23
Press Trust of India reports:

>>Sounding a stern warning against reporting of unwarranted criticism of judges and judiciary, the Supreme Court has said freedom enjoyed by media was no licence to indulge in sensationalism and a mechanism should be devised to check the criticism from "crossing the limits".

I agree. After all, we don't want to offend the delicate sensibilities of these imperious, officious, sanctimonious, lazy, thin-skinned, arbitrary and incompetent nincompoops whose only discernable talent is to bring the legal system into abject disrepute. How these clowns came occupy their positions constitutes the biggest mystery in the universe.

>>This judgement was given by a Bench comprising Justice Y K Sabharwal and Justice Tarun Chatterjee while sentencing Rajendra Sail, a close associate of slain trade union leader Shankar Guha Niyogi, for seven days for committing contempt of Court for "scurrilous" criticism of a Madhya Pradesh High Court judgement acquitting the accused in the murder case.

Justices should concentrate on meeting minimal competence in all aspects of the legal system so as not to give its critics an opportunity to make "scurrilous" criticism. A court is a public institution and should welcome public criticism; which is the only source of accountability; otherwise they become insular.

>>However, the apex Court accepted the apologies of the Editor, Printer and Publisher, Chief Sub-Editor, Desk In-charge and the reporter of newspaper 'Hitavada', who were convicted by the High Court for reporting the remarks of Sail, and set aside the order of conviction passed against them.

If these "journalists" weren’t so craven, they would have challenged the judges to put them in jail for doing their job of reporting.

>>Realising the importance of print and 24-hour channels and the articles and programmes churned out by them, the Bench said in every case it would be no answer to plea that the publication, publisher, editor or other concerned did not know the gravity of the comments made or take the plea that it was done in haste.

This gives us more insight into the incompetence of the lawyers who argued "haste" rather than anything else.

>>Justice Sabharwal, writing for the Bench, said "some mechanism may have to be devised to check the publication which has the tendency to undermine the institution of judiciary".

How about a mechanism of a competent judiciary?

cont......
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
22
I will give you a concrete process of how it happens. See there are three stages in this assimilation process.

First is identification. That is you acknowledge that yes this culture is there and I identify and try to understand it. This stage has happened to indian with regards to english for last 100 years. We have identified it and understood it.

Second is internalisation. During the internalisation process we start making it our own. Like the hinglish thing. In this process the culture of product starts getting into the local culture, local people and local traditions.

Lastly the assimilation process. In the assimilation process the culture, and society starts defining its own culture according to the external product which has come into the society.

Right now we are on the edge of identification and internalisation process. We are still trying to understand english and in some cases making it suitable to the local culture. Like "Yeah Dil mange more" or any inglish rhtyme or word.

This process is going to last for a long time. We are indeed writing hindi words in english like Yeah to hain na. We type words in english but write hindi words. These are all the internalisation process of english.

continued
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Apr 26, 2005 12:00 AM
21
Well Eyunni you have got embedded in some vocabulary exercise.

Well let me try to illustrate that there are hindi equivalent of almost everything. Locomotive, subway, even burgers(vada pav). The point is that we dont use it. Now why dont we use it.

You gave me an example of french men no using English in there own conversation and something about there very good french accent. Well we are not french. We are indians and we will behave in the way an indian is supposed to behave.

Now let me tell you as an indian why do we behave the way we behave. See Indians especially hindus dont have a fixed dogma. We believe in assimilation and change.

One of the greatest strenght of indians have been to adapt to changes and not resist them. Let me give you a concrete idea. We indians dont resist externally we resist internally.

There is a very good example of the difference in resistance. There was once a long time ago an invasion in a spanish colony. The invaders wanted the spanish people to convert to there faith. The spanish said no, they were all killed. The invaders were very impressed and they sang songs in the valour of those spanish people. They are very popular and brave people. Now this is external resistance. But the result. The result is that those spanish people got killed and invaded. Hence there civilization and way of living got finished. The invaders won and they imposed there values of that land. So this is called external resistance where you resist if you win you win, if you loose you are finished.

Now come to the indian response. What will an indian or more specifically an hindu will do. If asked to convert he will convert(this is called survival tactics). No resistance(external). Now he will take that god to his home. Adopt and change that god according to his needs and inturn make it so unrecognisable for the conqurer that he will start disgusting that god of the hindu. In the end what will happen that the hindu will always remain hindu though the form of worship has changed but the method is still the same.

A very good example on this point is the Kerela Christians. These guys have no link whatsoever with the Vatican or anything like that. They have a local religion which has been totally changed and any western civilization christian will not identify with this christanity.

The point I am trying to make is that indian resistance is internal. He will accept whatever comes his way change it according to his needs make it his own and then take it around the world as his own.

continued


Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Apr 25, 2005 12:00 AM
20
Eyunni. inadequacy of vocabulary is hardly the answer to what I was talking about. Languages are the tools I use to express myself. I may use some more than others, but I am not wedded to any of them.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Apr 25, 2005 12:00 AM
19
Broken hindi and english which is called inglish is spoken in india coz the hindi pundits are unable to comeup with new words in hindi for the changing world. And majority of the people in india are lazy they dont want to take up new words and want to make a cocktail. Thats why they speak hinglish. But the rest of the world are not as lazy as indians to make a cocktail and mockery of their languages. They can invent and speak new words for their needs and changing world. In english they mostly invent and some times borrow some words from other languages to make it rich. Of course indians just borrow words from english and not invent. Thats the difference.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 25, 2005 12:00 AM
18
Ghulam: Thats because u dont have good grip on any languge and u dont have much words to match in your thoughts in a particular languge., be it urdu or english. For example you dont have words for bus, train, station, subway in urdu. Fault is not yours. The urdu language experts didnot took pains to invent new urdu words for thsoe english terms. When there are no invensions in a language then that language slowly dies. French, hebrew, german and many european languages have words for their expression. You dont have so your mind switches from one language to other where there are enough words for your expression. I hope you got your point. Its not rules, its lack of vocabulary which is at fault.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 25, 2005 12:00 AM
17
I was looking for some wonderful insights in Gurcharan Das' article ... but found none ... all that Das has mentioned is know to any Indian who has travelled a bit in the world ...

And as for English as a language uniting India ... Har de Har har har ... did Bengali unite the West Bengalis & Balngladeshis ... or the East & West Punjabis .... Considering that Central & most of South America speak Spnaish .. are they united ?

Education can be in English and another language .. the human brain is perfectly capable of learning more than one language esp. in the early stages of childhood ...

This English + Vernacular trend is something that happens all over the world ... In Singapore the Chinese, Malays & Tamils have their own Singlish ... where they add the word "Lah" at the end of practically every sentence not to mention the ummmmmm sound at the end for added effect esp. by the Pernakan women ...


DS/Singapore
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Apr 25, 2005 12:00 AM
16
>> " For us english is to speak with foriegners and understand their thoughts. And its not for the communication between ourselves."

Eyunni, if that is the rule you follow, that is perfectly fine. But for me, the less rules I have to follow, the better. When I am with my Indian friends, I feel more comfortable talking about some subjects in English, other subjects in Urdu, and for most subjects I may slip from one to the other without even being aware of doing so.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Apr 25, 2005 12:00 AM
15
Kumar: Dont bring religion here and link it with english. Already the author of this article and his readers are confused wannabees. Dont confuse them more. BTW I wanna share one incidence with you guys.

I know a Indian family. Their kid was born here and speaks american english. When tis kid tried to speak his mother tongue initially it sounds like english. Then his father took pains to correct him and made him to speak his mother tongue with all the pheonitic rules of that language and now he speaks his mother tongue without the influence of English. And he speaks english without any influence from his mother tongue. The kid is now 15 yr old and reserves his american english for americans who cannot understand other languages. He speaks in his mother tongue with the guys who know it and with indians he speaks in chaste Hindi with out any influence from his english or mother tongue. For him english is just a language to communicate with nonindians. Thats the best attitude I guess. For us english is to speak with foriegners and understand their thoughts. And its not for the communication betwen ourselves. One who understands my point will be out of conflict and will honour their mother tongue coz thats the language our mind thinks and understands the nature.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 25, 2005 12:00 AM
14
And in spread of English (or Inglish as you put it), I also see a possible and a very important fringe benfit. One of the reasons for communal violence is the break down of communication bwetween religions and what they teach. Do the Indian masses know what the best and most moderate of islamic scholars teach Islam? What the best of christian scholars articulate christianity or best of hindu scholars articulate hindu philosophy. The best of such writings are usually seen in English language. My feeling is that the day every Indian hears all of them, the communal violence and religious extremism will come down drastically. I have a sneaking suspicion that those who indulge in suicide bombings, gang rapes, burning priests, riots etc are the ones who never had a chance or exposed to best teachings of each religion. I think anyone who had some exposure in the best articulation of each religion, will find it impossible to wholesalely demonize any religion or get into the trap of hatred merely based on religion. Today, it is amusing how easily some people can be incited into violence and other morally repugnant acts in communal clashes.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 25, 2005 12:00 AM
13
Abhishek: I know many french guys here speak english which loads of french accent like ur inglish. You can call that Frenglish. The difference between u guys and those speaking frenglish is that they dont speak that frenglish with their fellow countrymen like u guys do. They do it with english speaking people. Their administration, their medium of instruction and their science is in french and they are proud of it eventhough there were english and viking raids in their history. Those french guys are strong men so they can thwart the influence of german and english on them. We are weaklings so we allow everything to dominate us overwhelmingly. Thats my point. Truth hurts but it stays.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 25, 2005 12:00 AM
12
Abhishek: Dont get emotional. Every langauge has its way to pronounce. I never tried to change my accent. I speak english the way i speak my mother tongue. Not only me a french a german or an italian or japanese will have heavy accent of their mother tongue when they speak english. Thats why they dont speak in english unless it is really required. That is when they communicate with international guys. Indians are only typical people who speak english asif they are english men or americans. Thats why americans laugh at indians when they speak english. Its not the indian accent which they laugh at its the attitude of indians which is ridiculous for them. I guess u are not getting my point abhishek.

Another small suggestion for inglish speaking people. Since anyway in few years every one in india will speak Inglish or Hinglish Why dont u guys change the name of our country. It should be EAST BRITIAN, or EAST ENGLISHTAN, OR INDO-BRITIAN ETC., GUESS HINDUSTAN AND BHARAT ARE TOO OUTDATED TO FIT FOR THE NEW GENERATION INDIANS.

Also since soniaji is our super prime minister and having reins of our country in her hands why dont we start some italian words into hindi and make it as Hitalian for a change.. I guess for fashion gurus in india after hingilish it would be Hitalian which would be fashionable to speak so that they can look down those who cannot speak Hitalian and those who speak Hinglish

Hows that Abhishek:::
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 25, 2005 12:00 AM
11
Eyunni i dont take pride when an american speaks hindi. Why should i feel proud about it. Strange. Neither do i feel anything wrong when he distorts it. Because that is the only way that he can speak. Ya I will have a problem if he will suggest to me that the hindi that he is speaking is better than the hindi i am speaking.

Case in point is Kabootar(pigeon). Indians in there heavily colonised minds starting pronouncing Kabotar as kaabootar to show that this is a better way of pronouncing it. That means that you are actually copying someone because you think that he is better. It is not evolution it is slavishness. To gratify someone you are changing yourself. This is what makes me sick.

What makes me sick even further is indians who purposely change there manner of pronunciation to american even if they are talking in hindi or in english. That suggests that there is something better in american pronunciation. This shows that you are not confident about your personality and about your country. You think that changing your pronunciation is going to give you better social status and acceptance in certain social circles. This is an elitist behaviour.

This is what is hideous and not a natural transformation of language according to the needs of the mass. The language which makes the mass comfortable is the language that should be spoken simple.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Apr 25, 2005 12:00 AM
10
Well language is a method of communication and whatever a purist says. It will always remain a mode of communication. The mode of communication in this land has changed several times.

First it was Sanskrit from where it started then pali came.

After that Sanskrit broke into hindi, and southern langugages like Malayalam and other southern languages.

Then Hindi got mixed with arabic languages, urdu came into existence and then hindi and urdu got intermixed and today we talk into both urdu and hindi words which are intermixed and we dont even know that we are indeed speaking some words in urdu and some in hindi.

Example jannat is urdu and swarg is hindi and both are used synonymously. The purists of urdu dont like this neither do the purists of hindi, but the mass population does not understand this they get it from there surrounding and mass media, films, and there social environment. Today there is no distinction between hindi and urdu. Though I cannot talk in urdu(like a purist) but it is very much one of the langugaes which i understand.

Same is going to be the situation with english. We will make it inglish and we dont need to be apologetic about it. We will use any mode of communication which fits us.

Further this official language thing. Official language is the last thing to change. Americans changed the spellings of colour to color now it is the official spelling of color. Similarly we are going to bring several hindi words into english and make it inglish. It will happen gradually and mind you not only hindi but there are going to be some regional words, expressions which are going to get imported and become a pan-indian language.

This is the natural process of transformation. This land has taken to several languages and sometimes alien languages like arabic languages and made it its own. We are going to do the same with english. We will change it to such a level and suit it to out needs that it will not be recognised by americans and britishers it will be an indian language which will be called inglish. Mind you i am not interested in what americans or english people think. If people of india are comfortable in this mode of communication then this is what it should be. This is called evolution of language. Purists will never want it but this is what is going to happen. Always learn form history and project it in future that gives a fair understanding of what is going to happen in future

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Apr 24, 2005 12:00 AM
9
Like it or not, English is India's new and possibly ONLY national language. To be fair, Hindi as a national language has made some in-roads into southern and Eastern parts of India. But English has spread far and wide into the country.

English has ingrained itself into the Indian mind and soul. The fact that Indians are increasingly 'mixing' it with other languages is a point in fact. English in no longer a "foreign" language but is an assimilated part of the global Indian.
Dr. Dre
KC, USA
Apr 24, 2005 12:00 AM
8
Much as I admire Gurcharan Das's `journal writings' on India, I wonder what made him to observe naively that the whole of India has taken to Inglish (meaning, Hindi sprayed with English) like cricket. Bollywood hasn’t cut into Tollywood or Kollywood’s turfs. Looks like Das is out of touch with today's youths who speak American English with perfect accents thanks to the spread of voice training. Inglish is not cricket. If north speaks Hindlish, then south has its own variety like Tamlish or Telugish. Even ad agencies know this and the smart among them copy write with vernacular flavours for Coke and Pepsi to brainwash the locals. It’s just fun, not serious business. But it doesn’t mean in the least that business English in India will stay this way. I totally agree with Professor Harish Trivedi of Delhi University who says Indian English is incorrect English. There's no gloating over our mistakes and branding it out as `desi variety' with patriotic masala strewn liberally. By promoting Inglish (or whatever flavour of it), India cannot hope to grab outsourcing orders from the west. English has emerged the world’s lingua franca by trimming its sails to the winds of change. Regional flavours of Inglish may sound good on TV and FM. Not in print. Serious businesses are run in global English. Today, it’s global English which is spoken in boardrooms of IT companies. (Maybe in bedrooms we use Inglish?) Das also talks about Old English employed by Indian media. Does any youth today care about what’s written in our English print media? To the Internet, they’ve turned long ago. And in Internet, it’s plain English that sticks. News media which fail to adapt to plain English will die only a rapid death.
S. Venugopal
Bangalore, India
Apr 24, 2005 12:00 AM
7
It is a delight to read an article so well written. There is more English in spoken words in India now then there was a few decades ago. Since we are using it, we may as well learn to use it well. This is not a question of snobbishness, but one of diverting resources to something that the people want.
Ghulam Y Faruki
New York, United States
Apr 24, 2005 12:00 AM
6
Abhishek: Its upto u to speak and take pride in inglish. But the world has other ideas. If an american takes up hindi and distorts it and speak some ridiculous coktail of hindi how would u feel!!
You sometimes feel proud that hindi is spoken by an american and also feel bad coz they are distorting hindi. Same is case with americans and britishers. So better guys stick to what they know and make it better than trying to become what they are not. Thats dangerous.
eyunni
new york, United States
Apr 24, 2005 12:00 AM
5

What is a language?

Any language is primarily a means of communication.

To condescendingly put-down someone who can not speak 'English' or 'Amrican' English properly is utterly stupid and insulting. After all, English