'I Stand By My Assessment'
Those who are vigorous in their denunciation of the human rights of the Christian and Muslim minorities in India remain muted on the Bush Administration's policies in Iraq and the serious violations of the human rights of the Iraqi Muslims by the American troops. Who is devious, mischievous and motivated?
The Policy Institute for Religion and State, Washington, DC, USA joins issue with B. Raman's article, Hidden Persuaders, arguing it is 'written with ulterior motives and distorted facts'.
S. Sunita

Apropos the comments on my article, Hidden Persuaders, I wish to state the following:

Aziz Hanifa, the well-infomed Washington DC based correspondent of India Abroad, had contributed a report to his weekly dated  March 18, 2005, on the controversy over Narendra Modi's then planned visit to the US. The report, which was carried by the weekly under the title  "US Unlikely To Stop Modi", stated inter alia as follows: 

"Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is unlikely to bar Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi from entering the country, senior State Department officials said.  Rice was bombarded with e-mails, letters and messages from secular, Christian and Islamic groups protesting against Modi's visit at the invitation of the Asian American Hotel Owners' Association. State Department officials told "India Abroad" she was aware of  the protests and concerns raised over Modi's visit , but no decision has been made on denying him entry to the United States. The officials said it was highly improbable that Modi, who reportedly  holds a ten-year multiple entry visa to the US, will be stopped at the port of  entry and turned back. The officials explained that there is a provision of  law to refuse visas  to people, who have denied religious freedom  to people and it is possible  it could apply here, but we are not sure. But that is one thing we may be looking at."

Shortly thereafter, the announcement about the rejection of  Narendra Modi's application for a diplomatic visa and the cancellation of the ordinary visa already issued to him before the Gujarat riots was made. In response to my enquiries as to what went wrong made with my Indian as well as American friends, I  ascertained that there were serious reservations in the US State Department over the political wisdom of applying a  1998 law relating to the denial of visa to those accused of violating religious freedom to Narendra Modi in view of the role played by the BJP in strengthening  India's relations with the US.. 

Ultimately, the office of Dick Cheney, the Vice-President, at the instance of some Christian organisations, intervened and persuaded the State Department to apply the  law to Narendra Modi and deny him a visa. I was told by credible contacts that one John Prabhudoss  and his organisations were among those, who had successfully sought the intervention of  Cheney's office.

Till I received this information, I had not heard of either John Prabhudoss or his organisations. On scrutinising the reports sent by the Washington-based Indian journalists on the visa denial, I came across the following reference in a despatch  of March 23, 2005, sent by the Outlook correspondent in Washington DC, which was carried in the Outlook online edition:.

"Tactically, enlisting Congressman Joseph Pitts of Pennsylvania, an evangelist with strong feelings about the persecution of Christians, may just have tipped the scales in their favour. It was easy to activate Pitts since he had first hand knowledge of Gujarat. He had been there on a private visit last year and never stopped talking about the persecution of Christians and Muslims. P.D. John who leads the Federation of Indian American Christian Organizations of North America (FIACONA) was walking the halls of the US Congress, reminding young staffers of Gujarat 2002 and the arson in the Dangs. "

On further enquiries, I came to know that  P.D. John referred to in the Outlook report was identical with John Prabhudoss. I was told he calls himself sometimes as John Prabhudoss (when he went to Iraq after the US invasion and occupation, for example) and sometimes as P.D.John (when he visited Gujarat after the riots in 2002, for example) and that he wears two hats. It is also alleged that he uses other aliases such as J.P. Doss. He is reportedly the Chairman, Governmental Relations Committee of the  Federation of Indian American Christian Organizations of North America (FIACONA), Washington DC; and the Executive Director of the Policy Institute for Religion and State (PIFRAS).

My enquiries and research also indicated that both are Christian organisations and that, while the FIACONA  focusses on lobbying in Washington DC on the issue of the violations of the  rights of the religious minorities and  the restrictions on the right of the Christians to proselytize in India, the PIFRAS largely concentrates on backing the Bush Administration's policy of promoting democracy and good governance, particularly in the Islamic world. I came across the texts of the reports prepared and disseminated  by John Prabhudoss on his visits to Iraq and noticed that most of the members of the delegation, which he had taken to Iraq, were Christians.

My research and enquiries also indicated that  while he and his organisations have been very vocal in their criticism of the violations of the human rights of the Christians and Muslims in India, they have been muted on the violations of the human rights of the Sunni Muslims of Iraq by the US troops, the alleged brutalities committed by the US troops at the Abu Gharaib prison and the alleged massacre of the Iraqi Sunnis, particularly at Falluja, by the US troops. Nor did I find any  activism by him and his organisations on the brutal violations of the human rights of the Muslim detenus at the Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. If they have campaigned on these issues as vigorously as they have  campaigned on the issue of the violations of the human rights of the Muslims and Christians in India, I would  be glad to know the details and would be only too happy to stand corrected.

My research also brought out his acquaintance with and  proximity to some of the political leaders in Washington DC, who had played a role in the decision to deny a visa to Narendra Modi.

After taking all these into consideration, I wrote my article and stand by my assessment as given in that article. Since March, 2002, I have written strongly against Narendra Modi and on the massacre of Muslims in Gujarat. I have written equally strongly in Indian and foreign media on the serious violations of the human rights of the Muslims by American troops in Afghanistan, Iraq and in the Guantanamo Bay detention camp. I find it difficult to accept the arguments and the allegations against me of those in the community of  Indian origin in the USA, who are vigorous in their denunciation of the human rights of the Christian and Muslim minorities in India  and walk the lobbies of the Congress almost every day on this issue, but prefer to remain muted on the serious violations of the human rights of the Muslims by the American troops  so well documented by prestigious Human Rights organisations such as the Amnesty International and the Human Rights Watch. 

In my view, this is because many of those on whose support they rely for their campaigns relating to India, are supporters of the Bush Administration's policies in Iraq. Who is devious, mischievous and motivated? Me?


B. Raman is Additional Secretary (retd), Cabinet Secretariat, Govt. of India, and, presently, Director, Institute For Topical Studies, Chennai, and Distinguished Fellow and Convenor, Observer Research Foundation (ORF), Chennai Chapte

The Policy Institute for Religion and State, Washington, DC, USA joins issue with B. Raman's article, Hidden Persuaders, arguing it is 'written with ulterior motives and distorted facts'.
S. Sunita
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COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Apr 19, 2005 12:00 AM
30
An article by "saffronite" Vijay Prashad (who has received death threats from the far-right in India for his work attacking the VHP) on the dangers of US Evangelicals:

The piece is called "Eastward Evangelical Soldiers" and appeared in Frontline in Feb 2004.

http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2204/ stories/20050225000506400.htm

More by left voices on US Evangelical groups:

http://www.thesouthasian.org/archiv es/000335.html

http://aqoonyahan.tripod.com /index.blog?from=20050305



Tinkers
Philadelphia, United States
Apr 19, 2005 12:00 AM
29
>>An article by "saffronite" Vijay Prashad (who has received death threats from the far-right in India for his work attacking the VHP) on the dangers of US Evangelicals:

Because he allegedly received death threats from the far right, anything he says is automatically eligible to be taken at face value? I read the article. Its a typical lazy journalistic piece that stitches together cliches and canards.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 18, 2005 12:00 AM
28
Dramaqueen Singh writes:

>>Raman-ji,

>>Good to see a towering figure such as yourself ... call a spade a spade ...

>>Dont worry Sir, some of us are coming back to stop the Islamo-Christian Fascists and their pseudo-leftist coolies ...

That's right Ramanji. I, myself of aware of a large order of trishuls made out of cardboard and glitter paper. Now, if these morons can just figure out how to take them out of their packaging.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 17, 2005 12:00 AM
27
A few interesting notes:
Shattering the myth that Christianity is "caste-free" (the biggest bunch of bollocks if you think of how the church was used to support slavery and segregation in the US), a bunch of "high-caste" Christians in Goa are threatening to convert to Hinduism if the important positions stop being their monopoly. Hmmmmm. This is exactly how the Islamic wave among African Americans came about - as a protest against segregated churches. Regrettably this hasn't stopped mosques from being segregated in the Us as lots of racist Arab and Indian Muslims won't go to an African-American mosque. Conclusion: religions aren't "caste-free" or "racism-free" in and of themselves - its all what's made of it...

Also, some fascinating links on the CIA-Evangelical links which leftist Latin Americans have known about for some time. And the Bush-Evangelical connection with racist academics (eg. Charles Murray of The Bell Curve fame, who said African-Americans are genetically less intelligent)and even neo-Nazis. But then maybe...leftist Latin Americans (indigenous and landless people) are actually "chaddiwallas" in disguise. That tantalising possibility aside, here are some links... As usual, take out the spaces to access them.

http://blog.zmag.org/index.php/weblog/entr y/love_motivates_us_to_kill_the_enemy/

http ://ottawa.indymedia.org/en/2005/03/743.shtml
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/c ia_to_head_religion.htm

http://mailman.lbo- talk.org/2000/2000-May/010834.html

http://w ww.counterpunch.org/wise11082003.html

http: //www.blackpolicy.org/hm_articles/a_smith_index.ht m

http://www.counterpunch.org/prashad111320 03.html

(The above by "chaddiwalla" Vijay Prashad!!)

http://dehai.org/archives/dehai_ archive/sept-oct04/0056.html

Also a book about the inherent social conservatism of the theology of the Evangelicals: "Divided by Faith: Evangelical Religion and the Problem of Race in America" by Michael Emerson and Christian Smith.

An excerpt from the above:

"evangelicals have a theological world view that makes it difficult for them to perceive systematic injustices in society. In particular, evangelical emphasis of individualism and free will seem to predispose them to believe that most racial problems can be solved if individuals will only repent of their sins."

Good, so the next time you're denied a housing loan for being black/Dalit, or faced with a white/savarna lynch mob, or some white/savarna cop ready to blow your brains out for being black/Dalit, just repent of your sins and the threat will recede...

These sickos need to be kept penned into a small hole in Alabama. We have enough racists in India not to need to invite more in to "preach".
Tinkers
Philadelphia, United States
Apr 17, 2005 12:00 AM
26
Raman-ji,

Good to see a towering figure such as yourself ... call a spade a spade ...

Dont worry Sir, some of us are coming back to stop the Islamo-Christian Fascists and their pseudo-leftist coolies ...

DS / Mumbai, India.
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Apr 16, 2005 12:00 AM
25
All christian conversion is a result of do the prayer , we will give food. It is a complete black mail. it is all abt number game and pure black-mail. The sprit of jesus and all is gone really and it is all abt. the survival of the church. Especially with faith among Westerners is decreasing, the only other alternative is to convert the unconverted. And where that can happen, only in India, If you do conversion in Muslim countries, it will be a disaster for the converted and convertee. There is a saying in india, when the 'cat closes its eyes, it thinks the whole world is dark'. That's how it is , when the christians/muslims talk abt. hindu persecution or something. Sure, there might have been some incidents here and there (What they expect the 800 million to be utterly silent/quiet/ and docile and unconcerned abt. what is going on in their backyad?) which is nothing compared to the total population. Things abt. the destruction wrought by Christians against jews (the Christian Adolf Hiter), the slavery examples in US (by those who practice and preach christianity), decimation of entire Native Indian Population (funniest thing is the remaining alive were converted to christianity as part of 'rehabilitation' - in their words, they were liberated.) and so many numerous killings, black-mail, and (in europe, christians persecuted christians themselves, that's another thing..). And Now they talk abt. HIndus... ANYBOY IN THEIR SANE MIND CAN SEE WHATS HAPPENING. What my opinion, is hindus take charge and give ultimatum to christians and islam and others to renounce their religion, and convert every last one of them into our fold - by any means... and we just have to listen only when we have to, not need to read any of the ramblings of any christian/muslim/others, that's it.... We just have to take charge... Enough with patience and the feeling that we shouldn't convert.
R
Herndon, VA, usa
Apr 16, 2005 12:00 AM
24
R from Virignia writes:

>> What my opinion, is hindus take charge and give ultimatum to christians and islam and others to renounce their religion, and convert every last one of them into our fold - by any means... and we just have to listen only when we have to, not need to read any of the ramblings of any christian/muslim/others, that's it.... We just have to take charge...Enough with patience and the feeling that we shouldn't convert.

First of all, isn't there a law against conversion? Can those muslims/christians all converted to be brahmins? Second, can we apply that logic and make all Virginia Residents to become muslims/christians "by any means"? Third, does "R" stand for Retarded?
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 15, 2005 12:00 AM
23
Christian terrorism in India's North East
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/95 3200.stm

The leading separatist group in the north-east Indian state of Tripura has ordered indigenous tribespeople to stay away from celebrations of the Hindu festival Durga Puja.

The outlawed National Liberation Front of Tripura warned that any tribal members seen taking part in the festival would be killed.

In a statement, the NLFT said it wanted all tribespeople in Tripura to become Christians because the practice of Hinduism has led to them being marginalised by people of Bengali origin living in the state.

The Durga Puja is the biggest festival to be celebrated by Hindus from Bengal.

But Hindu tribal leaders have said they will defy the ban and take part in the celebrations.
B Bhattacharyya
Morrisville, USA
Apr 15, 2005 12:00 AM
22
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/953200 .stm
Hindu preacher killed by Tripura rebels

A tribal Hindu spiritual leader has been killed by separatist rebels in the northeastern Indian state of Tripura.

Police say about ten guerrillas belonging to the outlawed National Liberation Front of Tripura ,the NLFT, broke into a temple near the town of Jirania on Sunday night and shot dead Shanti Tripura, a popular Hindu preacher popularly known as Shanti Kali.

The separatist group says it wants to convert all tribespeople in the state to Christianity.

The BBC correspondent in the region says the killing has created tension between the majority of tribals, who are Hindu or Buddhist, and the small number of Christian converts
B Bhattacharyya
Morrisville, USA
Apr 14, 2005 12:00 AM
21
Old Sack writes that Joe Pitts is on a committee with "a long track-record of human and religious rights issues in Burma, Sudan, Vietnam, Morroco, North Korea, China etc."

Hahaaa. I have watched countless hours of C-Span and know exactly what that committee's concerns are. All they shrill all the time is "Christian persecution". Why those countries? Because those countries, like India, are established "targets" for mass conversion by American Evangelicals. Deny a group entry? Immediately the "persecution" scream goes around.

So...human rights violations against any other religious group are not at all that committee's concern. They are completely in bed with Evangelical groups.

And their influence is truly poisonous. Nagaland is a prime instance. But also Sri Lanka, Thailand, Cambodia. These countries are mostly full of completely non-aggressive, non-argumentative Buddhists. The minute an American mission sets up, fights break out, because all these American-indoctrinated loonies do is taunt and mock great religions which they are incapable of understanding. This is why the Dalai Lama is against these groups too.

The Dalai Lama is surely more believeable on human rights than G. W. Bush and the American Evangelicals who put him in power once and stole an election for him the other time!!

Tinkers
Philadelphia, United States
Apr 14, 2005 12:00 AM
20
The other thing that this Joe Pitts committee loathes is "commies". Note that just as Naxal activity is spreading like wildfire all over India and Asia, the Evangelical groups are getting FRANTIC about "cracking" these places.

They even sent one of their Andhra cronies to Andhra Pradesh. The dude descended in a big jet. The Naxals need to chase these commie-busting lunatics away.
Tinkers
Philadelphia, United States
Apr 14, 2005 12:00 AM
19
Tinkers writes:

>>I have watched countless hours of C-Span and know exactly what that committee's concerns are. All they shrill all the time is "Christian persecution". Why those countries? Because those countries, like India, are established "targets" for mass conversion by American Evangelicals. Deny a group entry? Immediately the "persecution" scream goes around.

You are talking out of the wrong end of your alimentary canal. You have any specifics to support your point?

>>So...human rights violations against any other religious group are not at all that committee's concern. They are completely in bed with Evangelical groups.

Allege the specific human rights violations by who, against whom, when, where, how. A generalized allegation is not enough. In other words, what is your basis for such a comment? Or don't you need one.

Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 14, 2005 12:00 AM
18
Allege the specific human rights violations by who, against whom, when, where, how.
For starters:

Against Tutsi minorities by Christians, Ole Jerk.

Against Buddhists by Christians, Ole Jerk.

Against hapless little children by White Christian paedophile priests, Ole Jerk. What sanctions is the US going to impose against the Vatican for shielding Bernard Law?

Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Apr 14, 2005 12:00 AM
17
>>Against Tutsi minorities by Christians, Ole Jerk.

>>Against Buddhists by Christians, Ole Jerk.

>>Against hapless little children by White Christian paedophile priests, Ole Jerk. What sanctions is the US going to impose against the Vatican for shielding Bernard Law?

what about of christians by Chaddis? was that an oversight on your part?
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 14, 2005 12:00 AM
16
Here's a news story dated 31st Oct 2002 for the benefit of that Uncrowned Emperor of White Christian Evangelicaloonies called Old Mac:

Amidst an hour-long acrimonious debate, the Tamil Nadu assembly today passed the Anti-Conversion ordinance, with 140 members voting in favour and 73 opposing the measure.

The ordinance, which has now become a bill, seeks to regulate any forced religious conversion
Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Apr 14, 2005 12:00 AM
15
what about of christians by Chaddis?

Trying your white Christian trciks on me, OLe Jerk, and shifting goalposts? You demanded a list of human rights violations by "other" religious groups, and I'm providing them to you.

By the way, Chrsitians have persecuted and ARE persecuting non-Christians in India.

Take for example, Tamilnadu's anti-conversion law.

First, aside from its clear unconstitutionality


Codswallop.

The said piece of legislation was perfectly constitutional.

It is not white Christian racists who decide what is in accordance with Indian Constitution, Ole Jerk. Indian judges trained in Indian law do so. None of your white Christian rapist/looter technique of telling the natives what is good for them, okay? Those days are gone.

In fact, proselytization is not only unconstitutional in India, it is also intrinsically alien to pluralist Indian ethos. Indins have never believed in "there is only one true god and if you don't accept him he's gonna fry you in oil" bs you know.

the law was not passed through the Legislative Assembly by elected officials who are accountable to the public after full and open public debate. It was passed by Governor's ordinance

It means that you know zilch about Indian law, Evangelicaloonie Jerk.

An Ordinance lapses unless it is converted into an Act passed by the legislature within 6 months. And before it becomes an Act, it _will_ have to be debated and voted on by the legislature.

Second, the law prescribes different penalities depending on the status of the "convertees." Women and Dalits face a more severe penalty than others

Fool, which Senior Evangeliucaloonie fed you this bs?

No "anti-conversion" law effected in India has prescribed punishment for converts, including the law in question.

All punishment is targeted at the snake-oil selling louts who effect fradulent conversions. And if their vicitms happen to be vulnerable sections of the society, like women or dalits, the punishment meted out to the involved _proselytizers_ is correspondingly is higher.

And an "anti-conversion" law almost on the same lines was enacted in Buddhist Sri Lanka, yo Clown of Christendom. They had their own categories of vulnerable people that the white Christian evangelicaloonie bigots were targeting.

So, there is not even a pretense of equality before the law.

Indian laws restricting proselytization are not, as is generally believed to be even by those who are in their favour, "anti-conversion" laws, imbecile.

It is pretty evident from your ignorance of Indian law as to what kind of poisonous propaganda white Christian slimeballs are running against Hindus.

Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Apr 14, 2005 12:00 AM
14
I asked for specifics of who, by whom, when, where ? not a laundry list.

Go do your own research, lazy-arse snake-oil vendor.
Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Apr 14, 2005 12:00 AM
13
>> what about of christians by Chaddis?

>>Trying your white Christian trciks on me, OLe Jerk, and shifting goalposts? You demanded a list of human rights violations by "other" religious groups, and I'm providing them to you.

I asked for specifics of who, by whom, when, where ? not a laundry list.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 13, 2005 12:00 AM
12
A simple question: Did PIFRA campaign and did the State department deny the leaders of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and China the right to enter the US? If not, why not? And why is it the countires that are non white/non-Christian and/or traditionally non-aligned face all these COngressional hearings and scrutiny? What about Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Switzerland etc.? Are they perfect?
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Apr 13, 2005 12:00 AM
11
>>Did PIFRA campaign and did the State department deny the leaders of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and China the right to enter the US? If not, why not?

Can you keep the distinction between national leaders and a state leaders, like Modi, in your mind? If you can perform that tremondous yogic feat, then we can focus on the concept of a country relating to other countries while balancing numerous interests simultaneously such as economic, military, diplomatic, political and human rights concerns.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 13, 2005 12:00 AM
10
Can you keep the distinction between national leaders and a state leaders, like Modi, in your mind?

But Uncle Sam was claiming that Modi's visa denial was based on American "Law".

If what Ole Jerk is claiming is true, that American "law" will behave differently in the case of higher officials, then American "law" indeed seems to be an ass.
Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Apr 13, 2005 12:00 AM
9
What should be debated is whether building or buying the most economical use of limited resources.

Indians will make that decision, without help from white evangelicaloonies, Ole Jerk.


Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Apr 13, 2005 12:00 AM
8
Oh I see, perhaps if Gujarat had more oil, and if that oil was largely or partly in the hands of Exxon or Mobil, and if Gujarat had an American base , then Modi would be allowed in?
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Apr 13, 2005 12:00 AM
7
Well said Raghu! Now this jerk Old Mac is weighing in on Indian aircraft carriers, and advising Indian admirals on what to say.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Apr 12, 2005 12:00 AM
6
BRAVO !!
MR. Raman !!
A job well done. Many of the organisations like PIFRAS would do good, if they are more transperant about their activities. It is a wonder why organisations like PIFRAS work overtime in the halls of the congress and do not attempt to rech out to the Indian community either in the US or india and find out the opinion of the people before it proceeds on these so- called Indo -pak 'peace' missions. Organisations like PIFRAS cannot force 'peace' down the throats of Indians just becaise they think so. Even worse, Raman has just showed their intentions about that were less than genuuine.
Good work MR. Raman !!
anotknown
qwerty, afghanistan
Apr 12, 2005 12:00 AM
5
Mr. Raman,
Nice article.
B Bhattacharryya
B Bhattacharyya
Morrisville, USA
Apr 12, 2005 12:00 AM
4
B.Raman responded to criticism of his article "The Hidden Persuaders" with another article titled "I Stand By My Assessment."

My criticism of his original article was that it was poorly researched and poorly written with no substantiation in the body of the article.

What follows is my response:

Aziz Hanifa and B. Raman read more into the State Department comments than warranted. If we carefully parsed the India Abroad excerpt, the only thing State Department said that was “improbable” was Modi will be stopped and turned back AT THE PORT OF ENTRY. The excerpt goes on “it is possible it [law] could apply here.” In short, everything was up in the air and the situation was fluid. This sets the backdrop.

That the State Department bureaucracy has a preference and makes recommendation by inertia is no earth-shaking revelation. However, it is not the bureaucracy’s role to be assessing political wisdom. Their job is to shape the options and provide analysis for either elected or appointed decision-makers.

B. Raman’s rebuttal argues, “at the instance of some Christian organizations,” Vice-President's Cheney intervened in the Modi visa decision. Notice a single cause for Cheney's motivation. If the opposition to Modi were narrow and shallow, then it would be reasonable for B.Raman to argue that this John Parbhudoss character and his organizations had much influence in the outcome. On the other hand, if the opposition was broad and deep, any argument of their influence would be weak.

Then B. Raman relies on Seema Sirohi’s dispatches. She describes Congressman Joe Pitts as “an evangelist with strong feelings…” She probably meant he was an evangelical. But we are used to her sloppiness, by now. Seema’s dispatch leaves the reader with an impression that Joe Pitts was motivated exclusively by narrow sectarian interests and gives no background of Vice-Chairmanship of Human Rights Sub-Committee with a long track-record of human and religious rights issues in Burma, Sudan, Vietnam, Morroco, North Korea, China etc. The reader is left with an image of a one-dimensional cartoonish caricature.

Notice the use of the word “alias” which is usually used in connection with people who want to hide their identities.

How did B. Raman conclude PIFRAS was a “Christian Organization?” Did he call them and ask their press officer any questions? How did Raman conclude that the members of the delegation to Iraq were Christians?

Its of no concern of B. Raman’s of how broad the scope of any given organization’s activities. He then implies that these organizations are selective and hypocritical. It makes them neither “hidden” nor “persuaders” in the Modi case.
Old Mac
???, United States
Apr 12, 2005 12:00 AM
3
MR Old MAc,
You seem to faithful poster on many of outlooks article. But they tend to look more like propaganda (or counter propaganda-- depends on how you look at it) rather than an analysis. You point that state department statemnt was vague. Well just pointiung that, does not negate Raman's analysis.

>> Notice a single cause for Cheney's motivation

Single cause?? Did you notice thath 'Christian organisations' is plural?

>>Joe Pitts as “an evangelist with strong feelings…” She probably meant he was an evangelical.

Now if you choose to re-interpret seema's words, that is your choice. Again going by the original words of seema, Raman's analysis stands. Also it is well known, how the US uses the Garb of 'human rights' to butt in in the affairs of other countries. It has been used merely as a political tool for provoking and attacking other countries. You talk of Burma, Sudan Etc. Raman Talked of US atrocities in GBay, abu ghraib and on many iraqies being killed in general. How come you never mention of those?? Haven't finished reading the artcile yet?

>> How did Raman conclude that the members of the delegation to Iraq were Christians?

Prabhudoss is an evangelical christian and his organisation went to iraq. How difficult is it for you to draw a conclusion??

>>Its of no concern of B. Raman’s of how broad the scope of any given organization’s activities

really?? I ask you : How broad is the scope of this organisation? You tell us !!

It makes them hidden and persuasive because, they did not mention of the problem in India's northeast caused by mass conversion to chritainity, but the fires of gujrat are still being stoked.
regards
anotknown
qwerty, afghanistan
Apr 12, 2005 12:00 AM
2
Mr.Raman seems to have raised the ire of PIFRAS for calling a spade a spade!! Go with all Guns blazing Mr.Raman!! You are right on the ball on this one.
SC
TN, USA
Apr 12, 2005 12:00 AM
1
>>You point that state department statemnt was vague. Well just pointiung that, does not negate Raman's analysis.

Raman's analysis, to paraphrase it, implies State Department decided not to withdraw Modi's visa. The intervention of "christian organizations," in effect, reversed a decision that was in Modi's favor. By pointing out that State department left all options open, it undermines one of the unstated assumptions of his analysis. In other words, Raman's analysis was simple and simple-minded.

>> Notice a single cause for Cheney's motivation

>>Single cause?? Did you notice thath 'Christian organisations' is plural?

Multiple organizations do not make plural causes. Didn't Raman claim that both organizations were controlled by the same individual?

>>Joe Pitts as “an evangelist with strong feelings…” She probably meant he was an evangelical.

>>Now if you choose to re-interpret seema's words, that is your choice.

Its not a matter of interpretation. Its a matter of Seema using words whose meaning she does not know.

>>Again going by the original words of seema, Raman's analysis stands.

He shouldn't be relying on shoddy work of Seema Sirohi if he wants his analysis to be credible.

>Also it is well known, how the US uses the Garb of 'human rights' to butt in in the affairs of other countries. It has been used merely as a political tool for provoking and attacking other countries. You talk of Burma, Sudan Etc. Raman Talked of US atrocities in GBay, abu ghraib and on many iraqies being killed in general. How come you never mention of those?? Haven't finished reading the artcile yet?

I did read the whole article. Those are legitimate debate issues, which need to debated at a proper time, place and context. However, the current dicussion relates to evaluating the thesis of Raman's article. It posits that certain organizations are "hidden" and "persuasive." Raman just didn't make that case.

>> How did Raman conclude that the members of the delegation to Iraq were Christians?

>>Prabhudoss is an evangelical christian and his organisation went to iraq. How difficult is it for you to draw a conclusion??

Very difficult if you are cautious and prudent in making claims. Very easy if you are reckless.

>>Its of no concern of B. Raman’s of how broad the scope of any given organization’s activities

>>really?? I ask you : How broad is the scope of this organisation? You tell us !!

That's my point. Without knowing the scope of the organization's activities, you can't criticize their lack of criticism of human rights violations that may or may not within the scope of their organization's activities. His criticism seems peevish and petulant without a factual basis. For example, If the organization's objective were to document and criticize ALL human rights violations, then their failure can be argued as either incompetence or hypocritical. If their objective is narrow, then it is none of Raman's concern how broad this organization may want to define its activities. So, Raman should have laid out the predicate, before concluding that they are selectively blind to human rights violations that are in within the scope of their organization.

>>It makes them hidden and persuasive because, they did not mention of the problem in India's northeast caused by mass conversion to chritainity, but the fires of gujrat are still being stoked.

You are entitled to your own interpretation and analysis, the reasonable of which will determine your ability to persuade others. However, you are just not entitled to your own facts.
Old Mac
???, United States
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