This has nothing to do with the article but the attitude of some towards arundhati's writings. Why is it that 'india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa', despite using 100's of words abt the type of person she is(anti everything except publicity), not said a single word abt the content of the article or put forward an alternate point of view? Is she/he anti-opinion or didn't this person read the piece at all?

Suma, that "Indian Patriot" was a purely hypothetical, and crude, caricature of what Roy thinks the average silicon based Indian is thinking.There are lots of sincere, articulate people of Indian origin who are concerned about the goings-on in Kashmir and elsewhere.It doesn't make them hypocrites or jingoistic. Roy herself writes quite a lot of nonsense, which should be detected by people in India itself, which I'm sure does happen. The attack on India's parliament strikes *anyone* ( whether living in silicon valley or India) as something very, very major, right up there with the world trade centre attack. Yet Indians themeselves, including Arundhati Roy, have trivialised the actual incident, and instead concentrated *all* their attention and their anger on how the Indian police have handled the investigation. That strikes one as perverse, reagrdless of where one lives.

Miss Roy,
Have you ever written about the reqirement of a unified civil law in India ?

This is a very belated insult to the hooker grr... Booker.
How stupid was she to preempt that likely mail from that patriotic Indian. I felt ashamed for having read two pages written by such an un-patriotic anti-national(as in her own confession) sense-less Idiot.

MY Vhut?

Wow!! Arundhati has out done herself with this one!If we were actually living in an Islamic-Theocratic-Sharia Law following-Taleban-like dictatorship, which modern islamic (is there another kind today?) terrorists seek to create world wide, Miss Roy would be the first to be stoned or lashed to death for treason or even for dressing inappropriately ( not in a burqa). But luckily for all of us, and whether she knows it or not, for her, that is not the case. So we have here, an "activist" who is writing in the support of a terrorist and terrorists in general, and is against the government and indirectly the State itself. But since India, is a democracy, she gets away with it. Even though I disagree with her, I do enjoy reading her articles, because I respect freedom of speech. I usually left amused and often speechless by her claims!! She reminds me of the snake in the Garden of Eden, who ever so artfully (and in Roy's case thru the magic of words), convinced Eve to eat the "forbidden fruit". Although I believe that's a fictional tale, it still illustrates a basic principle, that is, how someone can convince man to do something, which they (the snake/Roy) know to be completely wrong.Its the power of words, and Arundhati is great at using its power to support terrorism and stall development(NDA,No Development Alowed!). The only question that one must ask, is whether Arundhati Roy is Eve or indeed the Snake.

What a cheap attention attracting gimmeckery you are upto Shukoor that you had to copy paste your previous comments again. You mentioned in your message about majority reactions if the writer had written about Shankracharya. In addition you emphatically claim about involvement of state machinery that almost killed a muslim.

So where is your and writers proof that the state is involved besides in your and your protagonists head and of course other like minded people. Suspicions over the veracity of her statements also arise becuase she is known to make allegations without proof. Please read rest of the arguments if you need proof about her chronic lying.

Now you jump to Shankracharya in same vain and label him in his "murderous avatar". Now again where is your proof for same besides the apparent link in your logic that as Geelani is Muslim so he is innocent and as Shankracharya is hindu, he is criminal. The argument should be for the safety of a person who may or may not be wanting to be recognised as Indian.

Now about your acute comprehension (dis)ability. You end your note with exaggerated hand flailing "End of the day, its the religion that matters in India, really." So I point it out that your obvious finger pointing at hindus is not right because if you see the ratio of hindu population and the corresponding "dharnas" and protest, the response can at best be considered muted as most people do not see Shankracharya as symbol of hinduism, in this Shukoor is not a lament but statement of fact and I also mentioned clearly "including myself". But you come back charging with a quote which I never made - 'no one protested the Sankaracharyas arrest'. You betray you mental faculties (or is it lack of it) when from all this you comprehend that I am arguing that Shankracharya is innocent. Once for all let me tell you that though it is not for me to pronounce Shankracharya's guilt but definitely I do not believe in his innocence.

And speaking about babri masjid style goondaism, do enlighten us what would you call the muslim invaders demolishing temples throughout India. Muslims are deafeningly silent on the issue. Do you think that was right? Well one may argue that it is not the current generation that did it so why pose this question to them but are muslims ready to accept that it was unfortunate? Have they ever tried to assauge hurt feelings? What have they done to mitigate the distrust? Your hipocracy stands exposed.

Shreya,

What you need is a lesson in non religious thinking. Your comprehension of messages and their meanings should then follow.

Sir,

One article questioning the state machinery, which almost killed a muslim in cold blood, and just look at the letters raving against the writer.
I wonder what the reaction of these (Indian secularist ) readers would have been if, like the RSS writers, she had written an article in support of the Kanchi Sankaracharya, in his murderer avatar.
End of the day, its the religion that matters in India, really.

Shukoor PS

Religion does matter in INDIA .. anything remotely connected to HINDU is bad .Any thing coneected to muslims is good as it favours the secularism. Great....

Sandeep,

This is called majority communism - pretending as if the majority community is at danger from the MINORITY comunity. Is nt that called fscism - used by Hitler, ad now by Bal Thack?

And remember that the Sankaracharya was arrested by a BRAHMIN.

Well if hindus are attacked the you can not ppose it. Do that and you will be labbled as nazi fascist..there is no caste angle in Sankaracharya case. if he is criminal he should be hanged. but kindly have the gut to criticise the minority when it is wrong

Shukoor,

Get yourself a lesson in comprehension if you are having so much difficulty in understanding the flow of my message.

Shreya,

If you think that the Sankaracharya was innocent and are one of those who thinks that anybody who accuses him is anti national, there are plenty more of your ilk, who are very active in message boards similar to this one.

Or were you expecting a 'freedom struggle' or a Gujarat type riot or Babri Masjid type goondaism to 'really' defend the Saint?

The person in question, who was killed, was also incidentally an Indian, in case you have conveniently forgotten.

Sir,

One article questioning the state machinery, which almost killed a muslim in cold blood, and just look at the letters raving against the writer.
I wonder what the reaction of these (Indian secularist ) readers would have been if, like the RSS writers, she had written an article in support of the Kanchi Sankaracharya, in his murderer avatar.
End of the day, its the religion that matters in India, really.

Shukoor PS

Mr. Sukhoor,

If you have come to the conclusion that in India it is religion that matters, then one must be highly surprised at muted response to Shankracharay's arrest among general "hindu majority" public. While there are few indignant responses, the hindu majority in the country is plain indifferent to the whole issue including myself.

However, this article and you seem to be very sure about the use of 'state machinery, which almost killed a muslim in cold blood' without any proof. It is this kind of double standards which is using minority 'identity' as it's mainstay, that anger a common hindu. It comes as no surprise that increasingly hindus are becoming unapologetic about their right leanings. I would like to point Ms. Arundhati, yourself and also Ms. Ananya herself to Ananya's quote "Identity discourse makes it impossible to talk about positions, because we are too busy talking about the persons who implicitly embody or explicitly espouse them."

Mirror mirror on the wall...

Use google for search

Shreya,

Why do you get so upset that 'no one protested the Sankaracharyas arrest'? Why dont you begin to realise that even a former PM sat in dharna with almost all his cabinet colleagues at the moment?
Why do Hindus have to equate muslim human rights as 'appeasement' of muslims? Why do you think Arundhati Roy is biased? Why this huge rise of Hindu fanaticism in India?

Please read my response with respect to your take where first of all you have assumed Shankracharya as 'in his muderer avatar'. Second, I have pointed out that it has hardly generated the kind of protest it could if the ENTIRE hindu community had taken it as a personal assault, which it has not, a few dharna's as mentioned by you notwithstanding. Please try and comprehend what is written before jumping to a conclusion that suits you.

Your argument would have been more credilble if you were concerned about attack on an Indian citizen, and if the person in question is not happy to be identified as Indian citizen, then to the fact that he is above all a human being. Please do not try to give it religious colour. You are claiming to be above such petty considerations as religion, your words though belie you. I would like to reiterate that I have nowhere mentioned that it upsets me that Shankracharya was arrested so please do not point your finger at me. And if you would, do note the other four pointing at yourself.

And yes, talking about avatar's...

My previous take is in response to Mr. Shukoor

" I do not know what makes you more angry, my being a Muslim, or my living in the West, or my belief that saying bad things about other people's religion is a dangerous game that all can play but none can win. "

Well said, Ghulam. Having said that, we must also accept that there are people who kill, maim, and murder in the name of their religion, like the wahabbis and the deobandis. Such accept secularism as a millstone around their neck, and these people must not be encouraged in the interest of the general public, no matter what their religion is.

Protest Journalism & Arundhuti Roy: The flip Side.

Arjun, thanks for sending the Bill Moyers Interview with Arundhuti Roy (http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript135_f ull.html). It was very revealing to me. I didn't know Arundhuti Roy believe in Civilization, their dialogue, common destiny. Once she reads more Tagore-Gandhi, she would see the uniqueness of Indian Civilization and feel compelled to take steps to protect it. Because others who are attacking it, don't believe in these Universal values of this Civilization. They want to have it SOLELY in their own way.

It brings out deep differences between Arundhuti Roy and Geelani: like on Source of Kashmir Sunni terrorism, partition etc. Pieces like this, are being used by terrorist, and their supporters like Geelani to score brownie points, demoralization of law-Enforcement agencies. But this Episode has boomeranged to their head, and the whole industry of "Civil rights" is getting more and more exposed today. Nandita Hashkar, who her husband is, what he does etc. What Begum Teesta does, what are their source of funding etc are now known to every Politically conscious citizen.

Indian is a unique Country, where Jihadi Civil Rights Supporters, Christian Evangelical Civil Rights Supporters ,Ultra Left Intelletuals, and Naxalites see a great Synergy. By coming together, they see a great oppurtunity of balkanization of India, huge Social unrest, and thus stop the development of the country and society. Plus there are 900 million "Hindus" who follw false religion and false Gods, who needs URGENT Salvation by all of these.

We have listened to all these craps for a long, long period. Unless these people change their course, it will cause major social unrest. Even a Senior Communist leader like A.B. Bardhan recently accepted to Ramchandra Guha, a Noted Liberal writer of today: Christian Conversion is destroying Tribal Culture.

"Feedom" and Kashmiri Language: Gradual murder of this Glorious language

Couple of months back, there was a small news item: Arjun Singh(Education Minister) didn't accept a proposal to recognize Kashmiri Language Books written in Devnagri Script, for different prizes/citations given by Different Central Govt Agencies. As we know, Kashmiri is one of the two languages in India (other is Tamil), which is Indigeneous: meaning NOT related with Indo-Aryan language family. It has a rich history. Duing Muslim rule in 14th-15th Century, its scripts got changed to Arabic-Perisan one (like Urdu).

So, what promted this proposal of having a Devnagari Script for Kashmir Language?

After some research, I found out, Kashmiri Language is pushed to the background by Successive J&K Govts. They are pushing Urdu, and gradual Islamization of a Language. In Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, Kashmiri has no place, but Urdu is taught in all Schools. So, a lots of Kashmiris, mostly non-Muslims, started using Kashmiri in Devnagari Script to save it.

Would be interesting to know: what's the take of Arundhuti Roy on this issue? Does people like them realize the pitfalls of supporting Versions of freedom espoused by Geelani and others like him? World view of Geelanis' revolve around "glory" of Sunni-Arab Domination, not ONLY through narrow meaning of Islam (A great peaceful religion), but also through Language imperialism. Instead of confronting these people at their very roots, these type of articles will boost them. Because Geelanis never change.

Thanks for the link to the interview below. Will Arundhati please let the indian people know that if the Indian government is not war ready, how we are supposed to react to a possible repeat of 1962 over a mound of dead Indians.

While the whole nuclear episode is quite unfortunate for the entire humanity, but your representation of India in this respect is not just an ignorant but a criminal one when you concur with Moyers about the pre-emptive strike of Pak against India or India against Pak. India has unilaterally declared a non first strike.

Ghulam Faruki,

"Ashok, I am sure you have reasons for saying the things that you say about me, although I do not remember discussing either Kashmir or Gujerat. I do not know what makes you more angry, my being a Muslim, or my living in the West, or my belief that saying bad things about other people's religion is a dangerous game that all can play but none can win. "

U bet yr bottom dollar that I have reason for all I say to people like u and pl do not try to emotionally black-mail me/put me to a defensive mode by insinuating that I say bad things about other religion.

When u do not condemn terrorism, condone violence and hero-worship terrorists, promote lack of democracy, secularism and equality of all humans in your Muslim world- what inference do we mere mortals draw?

When 700 verses of Quran ask believers to convert or kill Kafirs- how do I become a villain?

When Islam sanctions inequality and oppression to your own mothers, sisters and daughters- and u do not protest or change, why do I get the flak for speaking the truth?

When u sitting in the sanctuary of west espouse big words while Islamic world revels in orthodoxy, oppression and stone-age laws, is it not mere convenience or hypocrisy to talk big words while continuing to follow Islam rigidly?

And if you still believe that in the name of being 'politically correct', truth should not be spoken, and if it is spoken- it will be dealt with by some fatwa a la Rushdie style, I have news for you.

It is people like you who have to live with their conscience and it is for you to decide if u want to stop fooling yrself or not.

Meanwhile, the world moves on!

Ashok, thanks for your input. I understand you better now.

Ghulam Faruki,

Thanks for understanding me better now.

Time to understand yourself better now!

ADI
“We can't even elect a decent politician because all that the Dalits and Muslims vote for is Laloo and scream about abuse!!”

What you mean to say that you couldn’t reelect the Bhramin Vajpayee and his bhramin party

ADI
…“Don't you have any dignity to parade yourself naked so brazenly?
If you are a Dalit, so what! Why don't you take your begging bowl to your leaders, the Paswans and Mayawatis?”…

Whos is coming with a begging bowl and remains hungry forever and never thankful … kashmiri bhramins. Read srinivas quote below
…“Just because they are upper caste hindus, no one, not even the BJP has done anything for them. You seem to forget that these are not illegal Bangladeshi immigrants who escaped their home country for a better living.These are people who have left their homes to live. Period.” …

Mattoo
….“Rajesh, you are a liar and a fool, and you do not have the elementary decency to empathize with victims of violence no matter who they are.”…

Kashmiri Bhramins are not the victims, they are victimizers, the real victims of insurgency, the dalits, in the valley are not even spoken about. Suddenly your peoples tactics have changed and you have started calling Kashmiri Hindus instead of usual kashmiri pandits

Mattoo
“I prefer to interact with other gentlemen on this forum who have the common decency to speak for what is right, instead of lying”
Mattoo slapped Faruqi but was stumped when the guy offered him another cheek. So he has come around and started behaving.

ADI
“Oh, woe be me - I am Dalit, I am Muslim, I am a Victim" charade that you people play.

See quote by Srinivas
“Just because they are upper caste hindus, no one, not even the BJP has done anything for them.”
Who is playing the charade .. bhramins.. old strategy to victimize others but portray that great injustice is being done to themselves.

ADI: “ More college reservations for me, more jobs for me!””

Ur answer lies in shreyas quote “The foolish talk of reservation and watering down of merit is highly dubious and ridiculous” …
….whats wrong with you guys … Didn’t you adopt a different approach when the govt proposed reservation for dalits in pvt sector a few days back. .. But when it comes to kashmiri pandits… then reservations are good.

What cheap tactics as usual

I had seen the September 2002 interview of Ms Roy with Bill Moyers on TV, and had gotten some calls from colleagues that night and some questions from my internet chat room friends asking about her. I revisited the interview on the PBS site today. She is a fearless speaker. I have to agree with some of the previous posts saying that her views are on the other extreme when compared to the views of the majority of posters here. Her remarks about the powers of the courts and about the construction of the dam may be controversial. But there are also things in the interview that most of us can agree about. For example her statements about the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Salvador Allende with American collusion and the installation of the ruthless regime of Pinochet are exactly identical to my own views on the subject. She also cautions us of the exploitative potential of globalization. I think a country is better off when dissident voices, even if they are extreme, are permitted. The institutions of the country should be strong enough to be able to take such opinions in its stride.

Faruki,
Whom are you trying to convince. Paid writers of RSS? Can these people ever match the callibre and foresight and courage of Arundhati? This whole forum is opened by Outlook to unofficially give voice to RSS who have infilterated every media. RSS pays people to write jingoistic propoganda on every forum. Its the international reach of AR and Amartya sen that bothers RSS most as they want to push the shit under the carpet and call the room clean ( India shining) How these fanatics scuttled the proposal for discussing the question of caste at a UN forum to prevent it from becoming a global issue is fresh in every ones mind.. Its a simple strato of these upper castes (so called).. fool people and keep ruling

Forgot to add that kashmiri Pandits are the RSS ammunition to flare communal passion..nothing else. Can you believe that RSS goes and opens vanvasi kalyan ashrams for Tribals but dosent contribute for charity for Kashmiri Bhramins ( thier own community).. poor labour class members of just one St Michaels Church in Dubai sent 680,000 Dihrams and two forty feet containers of new clothes for Tsunami victims in india... Thats called charity.. Its in a culture.. ( but not in hindu culture) .. RSS is a big fraud .. Facade of tribal welfare is to generate a fobia against christians ( conversions). Fool hindus against minorities and keep ruling..simple

GHULAM FARUKI

Your comments on the extreme voices is quite amusing. So according to you a voice for demand of *religion based cleansing* in India would be better? Or views about pro-AIDS campaign would do india good just because its on the other extreme of the usual campaigns concerning AIDS? I highly doubt the validity of such a flawed reasoning.

RAJESH

I am a practicing protestant and i find your views ridiculous at best with aim only to piss off the hindus here. The contribution by Indians (with majority of hindus) for tsunami aid is already close to $500 million. Another hindu organisation (Mata Amritanandamayi Math ) has started a $22million rehabilitation effort primarliy for fishermen , which ofcourse wont be the hindus. As Demosthenes said, 'Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true'. So you can keep your eyes and ears closed and very well continue to live your fantasy based on land of pure and 70 virgin(ians). Nuff said

Two of the biggest advertisers on the outlook seem to be ICICI and Philips. Please feel free to contribute to the inbox of the companies as to how positive image of theirs would be created in the minds of people like "india.patriotic@siliconvalley.usa" if they continue to support such "useful" views regarding India.

PS: just to clarify, in my last post the assertion that the fishermen wont be hindus is simply due to the fact that acc to RAJESH the target audience of the hindu orgs wont b anyone other than brahmins, so those ppl wont b the ones who would be helped.

RK singapore or should i call you AWAKEN BHARART.. So U are a practicing protestant?.. hmmm ...I guess the dog collar was necessary for you make your figures look more authentic. wasnt it? They wudnt sound convincing if an hindu speaks.woud they? Also do your math again. $500 million is RS 2000 crores and $22 million is Rs 88 crores. Do i need to tell others that you are lying. Btw how much are you making from RSS for writing mails. Must be quite a lot .. the same nonsense multiplied by all the fraud email ids.



"Two of the biggest advertisers on the outlook seem to be ICICI and Philips. Please feel free to contribute to the inbox of the companies as to how positive image of theirs would be created in the minds of people like"

This is a veiled threat to the companies not to support outlook with ads

Ofcourse the dog collar was as necessary as the hindu name of yours is a crude attempt to sound credible. Guess everyone has a ball and chain.

Go ahead to prove any of the numbers be in $ or Rs or pounds to prove me wrong. Instead of stupidity to exhibit (like you), i am putting forward FACTS that can be verified. As simple as that.

As for as being a memeber of RSS is concerned, whats wrong if one is? Is it an illegal organisation in any part of thw world other than possibly the land of pure (perhaps you would know that)?

PS: You need the timing QBC or its congregation timing :). Here again i am coming with facts unlike you.

"This is a veiled threat to the companies not to support outlook with ads"

So according to you the freedom of expression is sacrosanct only when the views of roy are to be presented. Otherwise it becomes a threat?

do a better job at trying to get my post deleted at the end of the day :)

Ghulam Faruki,

" I think a country is better off when dissident voices, even if they are extreme, are permitted. The institutions of the country should be strong enough to be able to take such opinions in its stride."

Noble words with whom no sane person can disagree.

Unfortunately, such noble words are generally directed at secular, open, democratic societies (however defective, they may be), never at totalitarian regimes, which are pre-dominantly located in the Islamic world.

Ever wonder why all lecture are for the good guys only?

Ghulam Faruki,

" I think a country is better off when dissident voices, even if they are extreme, are permitted. The institutions of the country should be strong enough to be able to take such opinions in its stride."

Noble words with whom no sane person can disagree.

Unfortunately, such noble words are generally directed at secular, open, democratic societies (however defective, they may be), never at totalitarian regimes, which are pre-dominantly located in the Islamic world.

Ever wonder why all lecture are for the good guys only?

Frontline, latest issue, "Targeting Geelani"

"In December 2002, a special Prevention of Terrorism Act (POTA) court had sentenced to death Geelani, who was arrested soon after the December 2001 incident, along with Mohammad Afzal, Shaukat Guru and his wife Afzan Guru. The Delhi Police relied mostly on an intercepted telephone conversation in Kashmiri between Geelani and his half-brother to establish the conspiracy angle. Geelani appealed in the High Court in January 2003. In December that year, the court acquitted Geelani and Afsan Guru. The court held that there was nothing in the telephone conversation to implicate Geelani in the attack case. The Delhi Police then moved the Supreme Court, where the case is pending"

The lies of most of the people who lied on this forum, who pulled the trigger on geelani have thus been exposed. end of discussion. bye Awaken bharat. Count your money earnd from RSS. its a hindu terrorist organisation.. that what is wrong with it.

"The lies of most of the people who lied on this forum, who pulled the trigger on geelani have thus been exposed. end of discussion. bye Awaken bharat. Count your money earnd from RSS. its a hindu terrorist organisation.. that what is wrong with it. "

The person was found guilty by the POTA court, acquited by HC and case is pending in front of SC. So your point is that since magazines/newspapers report it to be, then he is innocent. So this means no need to go to SC at all. This might be the way things work in land of pure, certainly not in India. You might want to confirm it with Roy as a matter of fact.

Oh so RSS is a hindu terrorist organisation? Declared that by LeT or JeM or AQ or SIMI or ... ?

RK,

Have u noticed the number of Hindus like Arundhati Roy et al defending Geelani on the basis of 'innocent till proven guilty'.

On the other hand, ever noticed even one Muslim, anywhere in this forum or Outlook, forget about Arundhati Roy,, saying that Jagadguru Shankracharya should be considered 'innocent until proven guilty' being tried by the same judicial system of the country that tried Geelani?

The nearest was poor PS Jha who was scared of the benefit that will accrue to 'Fundamentalist Hindus and BJP', in case Shankaracharya is proven innocent- not worried about the harm done to an innocent man, a religious leader of Hindus.

Not even a slur on the Tamil Nadu Police over the Shankaracharya issue, unlike our Dilli Police, which has been declared guilty without any evidence by our media and holders of secularism.

Long live Indian brand of secularism!

Brother Rajesh wrote: ".. Thats called charity.. Its in a culture.. ( but not in hindu culture) .. ....Facade of tribal welfare is to generate a fobia against christians ( conversions). .."

Brother Rajesh: You are denigrating a Culture(Indian) by importing categories from Another culture (Europe) for a cause (Religious Conversion). And thanks for letting the mask fall, so openly. The world knows now, isn't it? Thanks to Edward Said (Orientalism), Thomas Trautmann(Aryans and British India) and many otheres.

Indian History, Social Sciences were produced with Europe Categories WITH CHRISTIAN MISSIONARY AGENDA.

There were times, when Rants like yours used to be treated as "mis-informed", "report of a drain-Inspector" (Gandhiji) by Indians. But we are NOT going to do that anymore, we WOULD confront.

Nobody, No Indian, would support Missionary project of denigrating Indian Culture FOR CONVERSION. These Agendas are throughly Exposed today. Instead believe in "Cultural relativism", meaning analyze each culture with its own categories, methods, values. Not by importing from another Civilization.

We would build our India with paths Shown by Tagore, Gandhi, Nehru, Rajaji, Bankimchandra, Vivekand and others.

"Religion and 'Dharma' are not same" --Jean-Claude Carriere. Who is this person, Any idea, brother Rajesh? He is the tallest French Intellectual Celebrity today! So brother, start believeing in "Cultural relativism", and stop denigrating other cultures for ulterior motives like Conversion. Europe has done that with Near East, India, Africa, far-East....everywhere.

ITS PURE AND SIMPLE RACISM.

Cynic_Lerner, thank you for trying to address the questions I had raised about Ms Roy's article.

On my question as to whether there were any lies in her article, the only response you gave was that the E-mail at the end of her article was fake. But that E-mail was clearly meant to be a parody or a caricature of the responses that she fully expected from her American critics, and as it turns out, she was not wrong in her expectation.

Regarding the question whether any viewpoints expressed in the article were too radical or objectionable, you talked of her philosophy or her politics, but did not address yourself to anything that was said in the article.

On the question of whether her article contained any "takes" that would generally be considered to be unacceptable, you mention her making certain statements or taking certain positions on Gujerat, but you do not refer to anything in the article at all.

So the question that remains is : are we criticizing this particular article, or are we angry at her politics and her previous participation in unpopular causes?

"But that E-mail was clearly meant to be a parody or a caricature of the responses that she fully expected from her American critics, and as it turns out, she was not wrong in her expectation."

Now, now, her article DOES NOT mention that the email was a caricature. Here is what is stated by Arundhati Roy:

"That's it from me folks. 'Bye now. Let the insults roll. Oh look! Here's one already..."

That says she received the email, and in fact, a lot of the readers here BELIEVE that this email was real, and nowhere in AR's article does it state that this email is a work of AR's imagination.

Secondly, what makes her think that there is no one in India that shares these views?

Ghulam Faruqi:
"So the question that remains is : are we criticizing this particular article, or are we angry at her politics and her previous participation in unpopular causes?"

Nice one. I KNOW you read the point-by-point rebuttal to Ms. Roy's article by myself and others earlier on, so the question is why do you need to spin the situation now as, "these people are all AR haters and don't necessarily have anything against this article". Is that your game?

I can and will repost those articles if you insist that there are no legitimate criticisms against this article, as you imply above.

Discourse on "Indian Patriot" and Eric Hobsbawm

"But that E-mail was clearly meant to be a parody or a caricature of the responses that she fully expected from her American critics, and as it turns out, she was not wrong in her expectation..."

Farukhi: Arundhiti Roys, Romila Thapars of Indian Ultra left world has long resented the fact that: their own creation, the educated, economically advanced section of Indian people vehemently oppose their positions. Its NOT limited to those Indians who work in West, its EQUALLY TRUE for people from Bangalore (india's High-Tech capital), Bombay (Financial Capital), or Calcutta (Erstwhile Cultural Capital before Communists destroyed it), Chennai etc...

Ms Thapar elaborately spoke against these people. I think, if you search Outlook by Author, you will find some of those written by ms Thapar herself.

The question remains: Why her own creation (in case of ms Thapar), or Most anglicalised group (in case of Ms Roy), take so opposite and strong position against them.

Unless Arundhuti Roys, Ms Thapars Understand this, the problem will NOT be solved.

One Clue: They should read Marxist historians like Eric Hobsbawm very closely. Some people learn, But NOT our Marxists. They are so colonized, they are to be prodded at every Etep.

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp? fodname=20041227&fname=Hobsbawm+%28F%29&sid=1

Discourse on "Indian Patriot"

Another interesting thing is: these "Indian patriots" of ms Roy/Ms Thapar are NOT religious zealots. Most of them are NOT even religious at all: like rituals, going to the temples regularly. They put maximum thrust on Education, and spend their fortune for pursuing "westernised" Education. They have NOT located Women as per the "Manu-Samhita". Most, if NOT all of them, despise Casteism.

What who are these people? These are religious zealots/ Modernists?

This is THE QUESTION Which Unsettles Ms Roys/Thapars of India. Does it ring any bell? For details, Please read "Ramjanmabhumi movement and fear of the Self", by Achyut Yagnik, Ashis Nandy. It will be crystal clear what is going on here in India, its people. And why Ms Roys are loosing the battle.

While we all despise terrorists, extrapolating that to a general indictment of Sunnis is a big stretch. Sunnis constitute 85 % of world's Muslims, which means there are almost a billion Sunni Muslims in the world. Their proportion in India is roughly the same. They cannot all be terrorists. While a few thousand of them are engaged in terrorist activities, it is sad to see several thousand others cheering their acts or being sympathetic to them. It is not likely however that such sympathies have religious roots. They are more likely to be based on geopolitical considerations, such as the Palestinian issue, or the presence of American military bases in Saudi Arabia.

Sunnis, being by far the largest or the parent group among Muslims, have, like other religions, been very intolerant of any break-away groups, and despicable atrocities commited by the Sunnis on the break-away Muslim groups are often financed by the Saudi-Wahabi resources. That is why I keep saying that the issues that the Muslims have to deal with are huge.

Arun, if specific criticisms of the article were posted, I am sorry that I missed them.

Un-ending discourse on "Indian Patriot"!


Good anslysis Bhaskar..Good stuff.

I would like to add the followings.

These Educated, Economically upward Indians are NOT only non-religious, they actually have total presense in Indian discourse today. Consider these: national Security, Development, Scientific rationality --these has now a hegemonic presence amongst politically exposed Indians. What we see today, in this Rants section, is also an indication. People overwhelmingly oppose those ideas, which go against these very ideas which are NOT religious, but Statist, and thus Secular.

Farukhi: This Article by ms Arundhuti Roy is failing that Golden test.

(1) It deals with a Kashmiri person, who has atleast some demonstrated link with terrorists who attacked the very temple of Indian Democracy. Whether that's sufficient for conviction or not, its another matter altogether.

(2) This person (SAR Geelani), chose to wear a hat, Kashmiri Separatist, even after his "release" by Delhi High Court. This is pointed out by even an eminent columnist which appeared in the Hindu, by any standard a very liberal (rather marxist newspaper).

(3) The same opposition would have come if, (suppose) DMK, a Dravidian party now burns Indian National Flag/COnstitution, or heap Insults to Ram as a symbol of Aryan and upper caste domination, in the roads of Chennai. Remember, these entities like, DMK etc, actually did that, not so long ago.

(4) Such "compromise" with National honour and national politics are now seen as UNFORGIVABLE SINS and any Government tolerating such "ANTI-INDIAN" Acts are NOT going to find it easy.

(are you following BJP's objection to recent Kashmir Events? They are NOT objecting to Bus, but rather travel WITHOUT PASSPORT, which may (maynot) harm the national Security).

(5) Lastly, but not the least, everybody understands that these Ultra-left like Ms Arundhuti Roys are suffering from "moral relativism". They never objected, or raised a single voice to plight of 500,000 Kashmiris who were driven out. How ethical is that?

So? We now have a explosive Mix, where even slight deviation from GOLD-STANDARDS (National Security, Development, Pampering of Minorities in a secular State.....) are protested vehemently. I think, these ideas are secular, and Hindu nationalism is always a illegitimate child of modernity.

That's why they beat Ms Roys/Ms Thapars in their own Game. Its not 1955, when Hindu Nationalists objected to modernization of Hindu Personal laws. Recently, many steps were taken to provide equal justice to women, and to the best of my knowldge, nobody, even Togadia objected to empowerment of women.

Its a very facinating story. Please read that book Bhaskar suggested. Its a Good one, and help us understand the dilemas Arundhuti Roys facing today.

Ghulam Faruqi,

Apologies for the rant; I thought you had read it. It starts at page 20 of 28 (X-8 pages in case the number of pages increases when you read this) and then read backwards since this site diplays all the posts in reverse order of receipt.

Bhaskar, you say that a vast majority of Indian intelligentia disagree with the views of Roy and Thapar. But you surely do not mean to imply that dissident minority opinions should not be allowed in journals devoted to free expression of opinions.

Ghulam wrote:
" you say that a vast majority of Indian intelligentia disagree with the views of Roy and Thapar. But you surely do not mean to imply that dissident minority opinions should not be allowed in journals devoted to free expression of opinions."

Ghulam, it is very simple. Opinions of all sorts are indeed protected by law...HOWEVER, this presumes an iota of social responsibility on the part of those who have the oppurtunity to speak for their ideological partners. What is being protested is the rather arbitrary manner in which Ms. AR pooh-poohs the LEGITIMATE case against SAR Geelani, proclaims him innocent, and then proceeds to berate everyone who suspects that he is not innocent. Ms. Roy DOES NOT answer any of the troubling questions concerning Geelani's ASSOCIATION with the terrorists. Geelani has provided NO explanation for why one of the terrorists would call him a few minutes before the parliament attack. Ms. AR also pretends that no such thing happened. If Ms. Roy wants to preach to all of us about going easy on Geelani, she needs to do better than just go on a diatribe against the delhi police while chanting the SAR Geelani is a cherubim in human form. I am sorry. Publicly available information poses some serious questions that people like AR need to answer before they ask that Geelani be considered innocent.

Why did Geelani receive a call from one of the terrorists shortly before the attack and on numerous instances before that?

Why did Geelani and his lawyer hide the clothes that geelani was shot in for a few days after the shooting?

Geelani still proclaims open support for the secession of J&K from India. Why should this fellow not be considered one of the Kashmiri terrorists who have been plaguing India for 15 years?

As for the sunni muslims existing in large number around the world, we need to only care about those jihadi thugs who are hiding behind the skirt of the secular muslim community, and continue to do evil deeds towards furthering their jihadi agenda.

If they believe that everyone in India must bow down to their bigotry, they bloody well be prepared for reaping the seeds of their violence, hatred, and bigotry. It is not enough to proclaim "islam is peace", when they go around claim ahmaddiyas and sufis are not true muslims who need to be exterminated.

If they are going to kill Indians for not following their rules, they all need to die. There is no room for tolerance towards bigotry and religious fundamentalism of ANY shape or form. Simple as that.

Yes, all religions need to be treated equally, and this means that the sunnis need to accept that islam is just another religion, and cannot be provided special privileges that other religions will not possess in a secular country like India.

Arjun, I have now read all 11 of your items. They contain alot of material. The gist that I got out of it is that you thought she should have presented a lot more supporting information for the arguments she was making. Her distrust of the Delhi Police is equalled by your confidence in them. She and you have opposite takes on the same set of facts, which are often meager. In the West, the thrust of aggressive journalism is toward supporting the individual (Remember Emile Zola's "I Accuse"?) against the government, because the government is so much more powerful than the individual. But in today's India, with security concerns being paramount, I can understand your position also. Thanks for referring me to your analysis.

"Bhaskar, you say that a vast majority of Indian intelligentia disagree with the views of Roy and Thapar. But you surely do not mean to imply that dissident minority opinions should not be allowed in journals devoted to free expression of opinions. .."

You must be kidding. Noam Chomskys/Eric Hobsbawms are NOT entrusted to write School history books in USA/England. But Romila Thapar does that in India. Chomsky/Hobsbawms have every liberty in the West. Our version of them has much more: they have liberty as well as manipulative Zeal.

These are NOT "liberals" like Tagore, gandhi, or Nehru. These Ultra-left's world view is Binary, and they don't accept any dissent. Remember, what happened recently, when Manmohan Singh, the Present prime Minister spoke about "Left fundamentalism" in his 15th August Speech from the Red-Fort? How Likes of Sumit Sarkars, Irphan Habibs reacted the next day, in a hurriedly called News-conference?

Irphan Habib said: The Prime Minister has accepted half the Logic of RSS!

So, anything, and everything, whoever doesn't agree with these left fundamentalist, are colluding with RSS. Even Manmohan Singh!

After all that's why they are fundamentalists, isn't it? Who don't change their position, accept Logic. Just see their position of Kashmir, Partition, Pre-Partition Muslim league, WWII, China, 1962 war, or even Indian Foreign Secretary's Speech last weel.

Its apalling. Anti Indian is the common thread running in all their discourse.

Ghulam wrote:

"The gist that I got out of it is that you thought she should have presented a lot more supporting information for the arguments she was making."

Thanks for bothering to read all those posts, Ghulam.

I don't know what supporting information she has in this article; I would be much obliged if you listed out her supporting information. Other than unsubstantiated allegations against the Delhi police, she has presented little else.

" Her distrust of the Delhi Police is equalled by your confidence in them. "

That is incorrect. I do not have "confidence" in the Delhi Police, but given a choice between a man who was in touch with terrorists who commited a terrorist attack on the parliament and the delhi police, hell yeah, the delhi police carry a lot more credibility. The whole notion of "everybody is equally right" that you have been massaging into the debate does not withstand scrutiny. I am sorry.

If I am given the choice of believing a criminal and a law enforcement officer, I CANNOT PRESUME that the law enforcement office is as guilty as the criminal, as Arundhati Roy does with a wave of her hand by the second paragraph of her essay.

"She and you have opposite takes on the same set of facts, which are often meager. "

Maybe you can get into more specifics as to why you are claiming that all sides are equally wrong (or right), as I fail to see what supporting information Arundhati has provided in her article -- I do not see her going into any details of the evidence against Geelani or whether SAR Geelani has sufficiently explained away all his connections to a known terrorist. These issues must be addressed if she is going to preach to all of us that Geelani is a just a poor, wronged soul crushed under the boots of the horrible, horrible thing known as the Indian justice system (which apparently only delivered justice whenever the outcome is to the liking of the likes of A Roy).

If you could please give us all specifics (in point form, nothing elaborate) as to (a) what is the "supporting information" she has presented (b) what are the "Same set of facts" sha and I are working off (c) which of the points have mentioned requires additional proof. That should take us to the next level.

"In the West, the thrust of aggressive journalism is toward supporting the individual (Remember Emile Zola's "I Accuse"?) against the government, because the government is so much more powerful than the individual."

Firstly, Emile Zola was writing about France in the 1860s, and I am not entirely sure why his views translates to anything relevant a century and a half later. Which part of his philosphy you think applies to India and why?

The point is not to support the individual against the govt. for no good reason. It is not as if the individual is always right, which is why journalists need to use the brains god provided them to use good judgement before they get on a crusade against the state to support a potential terrorist. Failing to do due diligence implies collusion with anti-national elements at worst, or a callous lack of good intentions towards the general public at best. Both of which do not speak highly of the calibre of journalism practised.



" But in today's India, with security concerns being paramount, I can understand your position also. Thanks for referring me to your analysis. "

Thanks, that is exactly the point.

Arjun, I was making a reference to your saying that Ms Roy made such and such a claim without providing any supporting evidence. I was not referring to any claim in particular. I also said that the two of you had different takes on the same set of events. I did not make any notes from the posts containing your 11 items, but what I had in mind is the circumstances surrounding Geelani's being shot, such as the speculation regarding involvement of his co-defendents, the significance of the sweater and the missing coat etc. Emil Zola's "I Accuse" still remains a classic example of protest journalism, his modern equivalents may be Bob Herbert, the New York Times columnist, or Bill Moyers of PBS TV, now retired.

Arjun Matto,
Shouting is a sign of losing an argument. Stop using this forum to further your kashmiri agenda and ask for more favours from the goverment. YOu said that the caste system is dead in India. Every one saw how much you have been lying . For how long do you expect us to support you. Why should pandits be given any reservation. It has adverse impact on the merit of the society. I think that pundits shoud go back to their state. we cannot carry the useless burden. After doing so much, they just dont stop crying

This is rich! Rajesh puhlease read your own responses in these columns with your newly found wisdom that "Shouting is a sign of losing an argument." You may begin with the one in which you mention about theives in Shabnam Ali's article.

Wow Mr.Rajesh,
So the Kashmiri Hindus are a "burden"? Speak for yourself - Kashmiri Pundits are our brothers and love India more than your immigrant a** for sure.
If anybody should leave, it is those that support the enemies of India - lying jihadis like you who can't even remember the "Hindu" names they use! (I hope you never return to India)
How would you like to be kicked out of your cozy little New York home because of your race or religion and told to go back to where you come from?
It is easy to tell a Hindu and especially a Brahmin to get out of your country isn't it? Got the guts to say that to a Muslim or a Christian? You gutless wretch!

Mr.Rajesh Jihadi,
Don't presume to speak for India. If the Kashmiri Pandits are a burden on India, so are minorities of every kind. You can't pick and choose - I for one would choose you first to go back to wherever you came from - Africa may be a good choice.

“It is easy to tell a Hindu and especially a Brahmin to get out of your country isn't it?”

There is the reason behind the Hue and Cry over great!! Massive!! Suffering!!!! of Kashimir Paindits. Because they are upper caste ( so called) we are supposed to cry and bear their baggage. The continuous innumerable atrocities committed by them on the vast population are quickly forgotten. No one would have given a damn if they had been dalits. Their displaced people don’t even get refugee camps. Why cant the kashmiri pandits be satisfied to sleep on the streets, carry night soil for a living and eat out of garbage bins like the dalits do. After all al professions are honorable!!!!!. How come only the kashmiri pandits became refujees. What happened to other hindus of the valley? Why no one talks about them? The nation has done more than enough for you. For centuries we have carried these parasitic people on our heads. Stay happily in the refugee camps or go back. Stop demanding more and more benefits for your small problems. They are miniscule compared to the problems the vast majority of this country faces

Rajesh

you are wrong when you say 'No one would give a damn if they were dalits'

my friend, if they were dalits, the you would have the like of Mayawati, Laloo, Paswan & Mulayam lining up to claim them as vote banks.

If they were muslims, then all of the above and the Left and the Congress would line up.

Just because they are upper caste hindus, no one, not even the BJP has done anything for them.

More than a burden, they are a shame for us. A person having to live as a refugee in his own country is a shame. But we feel that the shame can be done away with by just ignoring them. And then these are Hindus and upper caste hindus at tha, so ignoring them is not an issue.

So you wont have a Barkha Dutt with a TV camera going through these refugee camps, showing the appalling conditions they live in, cramped up in little rooms.

No sir, only muslim refugee camps would make a good story and fetch a journalism award.

Why dont they pick up garbage and clean the streets and sleep on the streets? You seem to forget that these are not illegal Bangladeshi immigrants who escaped their home country for a better living.

These are people who have left their homes to live. Period. They had to leave their established businesses, homes, schools behind for the fear of being killed.

Has any government - the fundamentalist BJP Government or the secular UPA Govt given them a guarantee of a better life, hell, even life if they return to the valley?

No sir, but we have committees and battery of lawyers out on the streets arguing about what security should be given to Geelani(a person allegedly having link with terrorists and who espouses the cause of a separate Kashmir and who has been let out by courts on a technicality)

Nobody leaves their ancestral home except under circumstances of severe duress and endangerment. It is a disgrace that such things occur. To make flippant or petty remarks about the victims of such a tragedy would be contrary to our Indian upbringing.

Srinivas

”my friend, if they were dalits, the you would have the like of Mayawati, Laloo, Paswan & Mulayam lining up to claim them as vote banks.”

Yes yes How true, Every one is going all out to help the dalits.. That’s why they are so prosperous. U forgot to mention that Hindu Upper caste keep most of the seats vacant and don’t miss an opportunity do decry the meager reservations they get.

” If they were muslims, then all of the above and the Left and the Congress would line up”

No party even whispered against muslim genocide in gujrat post godhra.

”No sir, only muslim refugee camps would make a good story and fetch a journalism award.”

You forgot to mention that modi/ RSS and company shut them down prematurely to push the shit under the carpet and say that the room is clean. Pandit refujee camps have not been shut down.

“Why dont they pick up garbage and clean the streets and sleep on the streets? You seem to forget that these are not illegal Bangladeshi immigrants who escaped their home country for a better living.”

The millions of people who sleep on the streets or live in Tuberculosis infected city slums, whose children and dogs eat from the same garbage are Bangladeshis according to you. When will you guys stop lying. Have you ever asked them their name. Half of mumbais police constables live in slums. Why are there no Uppercastes among street dwellers . why are they all dalits/ obcs. It must be their own fault!!!!. They are not a product of uppercaste discrimination!!!!.. While everyones heart is pouring out for displaced kashmiris no one seems to care about millions of dalits who inhabit the streets. They are not a shame??? Only kashmiri pandits are. Dalits are not displaced snatched of the very opportunity to live by the uppercastes.. Only the kashmiri pandits are by muslims

”These are people who have left their homes to live. Period. They had to leave their established businesses, homes, schools behind for the fear of being killed.”

So what do you expect us to do. Build businesses and homes for them. We would if we had money to first feed ourselves. How much money hindu (bhramins) have contributed for kashmiris .. zero. How much money hindus give for Ram temple and funding fanatics… millions. Charity as a concept is alien to hindus. The only hindus who have money are the baniyas who have money for only two things.. themselves and off late politics .. so that they can make more money. What happened to kashmiri dalits? why have they not become refujees? The people who would suffer most due to insurgency in the valley are the socially and economically disadvantaged. But here we have former business owners and banglow residents asking and hijacking all government help as usual ( Tsunami victims, earth quake victims)

”Has any government - the fundamentalist BJP Government or the secular UPA Govt given them a guarantee of a better life, hell, even life if they return to the valley?”

Has anyone given a guarantee to the millions of homeless people.. That comes first and kashmiri pandits come later, atleast they are getting refugee camps . Kashmiri pandits are quite well off compared to the rest. Their children are studying in pvt engg colleges all across India

”No sir, but we have committees and battery of lawyers out on the streets arguing about what security should be given to Geelani(a person allegedly having link with terrorists and who espouses the cause of a separate Kashmir and who has been let out by courts on a technicality)”

Shankaracharya was also released on a technicality ( By your definition of technical). The whole country went on strike for a person who allegedly has links with killers and espoused hindu system of discrimination ( see website of kanchi mutt) he says caste system is the back bone of hinduism and we have to protect it whatever…. Who is a bigger criminal, Shankaracharya of geelani

Like the Sindhis and Punjabis who had arrived in refugee camps in wretched condition after partition, the Kashmiri hindus are capable of giving back more to the society then they have recieved. That is why they are welcomed wherever they go.

The foolish talk of reservation and watering down of merit is highly dubious and ridiculous. Many educational institutes have given admission to Kashmiri students on case by case basis and not as a matter of policy. And if there is a policy in place then why not? Dont they have right to education? Plus these students do not have reserved jobs waiting for them and have to strike out on their own. What home truth Mr. Rajesh misses out is that these admissions have been granted and are applicable equally to the Kashmiri Muslims also. So it is the Kashmiri students you should be reffering to and not the Kashmiri hindus alone.

I have gone to university with a number of Kashmiri students and while many of the muslim students flew back to kashmir during holidays, the hindu students caught the train back to their adopted home wherever it was outside J&K. This is a telling commentry on current state of affairs.

Mr. Rajesh your comments can be equated to trying to hurt where it hurts most. When you could not answer the specifics of comments of your critics you have deliberately resorted to this cheap trick. You would do well to remember that "Shouting is a sign of losing an argument".

Mr.Rajesh,
And I for one amd tired of this endless "Oh, woe be me - I am Dalit, I am Muslim, I am a Victim" charade that you people play. More college reservations for me, more jobs for me!
Don't you have any dignity to parade yourself naked so brazenly?
If you are a Dalit, so what! Why don't you take your begging bowl to your leaders, the Paswans and Mayawatis? We can't even elect a decent politician because all that the Dalits and Muslims vote for is Laloo and scream about abuse!!

why not export ms. roy to pakistan, this will solve our problems and give ms. roy all the freedom to write coz even she writes something offending she can easily hide in her burqha over there. hail india.

My friend Arjun MAttoo,

Pl try to understand the frustration of an educated Muslim like Ghulan Faruki living in the sanctuary provided by the evil west- how can he accept the violent nature of his own religion who openly asks KAfirs to be killed and oppresses women.

All he has been left is pointing fingers at others in the name of Gujarat- as if Muslims were not violent before Gujarat or Kashmir.

One can only sympathise with him.Usko Islam ki problems accept karke marna hi thodi hai!

Ghulam wrote:

"Arjun, I was making a reference to your saying that Ms Roy made such and such a claim without providing any supporting evidence. I was not referring to any claim in particular."

See, unless you tell me what I have not provided to convince you, I am not going to be able to provide you what is missing, can I? If you choose to remain vague, that is your prerogative.

" I also said that the two of you had different takes on the same set of events. I did not make any notes from the posts containing your 11 items, but what I had in mind is the circumstances surrounding Geelani's being shot, such as the speculation regarding involvement of his co-defendents, the significance of the sweater and the missing coat etc."

Okay, here is a link where you can get a collection of all the news stories on the parliament attack for your benefit. Read through them and let me know if there is some thing I have said that is not mentioned in these news items.

http://www.rediff.com/news/pattack.h tm


" Emil Zola's "I Accuse" still remains a classic example of protest journalism, his modern equivalents may be Bob Herbert, the New York Times columnist, or Bill Moyers of PBS TV, now retired."

Glad you mentioned Bill Moyers, here is Ms. Arundhati Roy's interview with him from 2002.

http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/tra nscript135_full.html

" Here, you have a system in India where the supreme court is probably the most powerful institution in the country. And because the politicians have become so corrupt, you know, the court has taken over a lot of the decision making.

So the court is deciding whether dams should be built or not, whether a slum should be cleared or not, whether privatization should be legitimized or not. The courts are deciding. And then they say that because of the contempt of court, you can't discuss it, you can't comment on it. "

So, according to Ms. Roy, our politicians, courts, police officers, and bureaucrats are ALL corrupt, except for Ms. Roy and her anarchist crowd. So, according to Ms. Roy, we need to PRESUME that the Indian govt., courts, police etc. ARE ALL AS GUILTY AS POTENTIAL TERRORISTS LIKE SAR GEELANI.

Can you tell me what sense is there in such an attitude? If we start believing that criminals are as good as the people who run the justice system, WHY BOTHER WITH HAVING A GOVERNMENT?

Ms. Roy's repugnance for the State and love for the criminal class does not speak well about her judgement at best and puts her in the same class the terrorists who attacked parliament and shpwed the same contempt for Indian democracy that Ms. Roy does in this interview.

If you think her rhetoric in this interview is "protest journalism", where she spews hatred for hindus and calls them all fascists, never mind the fact that if these hindus were as fanatic as the sunni wahabbi muslims, Ms. Roy would be dead and long gone by now --- something that Ms. Roy thinks will never happen....is that why she kisses up to terrorists, so that she will not be a target??

Rajesh, you are a liar and a fool, and you do not have the elementary decency to empathize with victims of violence no matter who they are. I prefer to interact with other gentlemen on this forum who have the common decency to speak for what is right, instead of lying and spreading hate like you have been doing in all your posts.

If you are considered a human by those around you, it is purely because of your physical characteristics, given the patent ugliness of your soul that you have exposed to us all.

Ashok, I am sure you have reasons for saying the things that you say about me, although I do not remember discussing either Kashmir or Gujerat. I do not know what makes you more angry, my being a Muslim, or my living in the West, or my belief that saying bad things about other people's religion is a dangerous game that all can play but none can win.

Arjun, if I gave the impression that I favor Ms Roy's version of events over yours, I must make it clear that I don't. The purpose in my earler query was to try to understand what were the subtantive objections to Ms Roy's article that made so many readers angry, and you have provided me with the answer to my question.

Lo..Behold! The email of Chadru Prakash that "All those (kashmiris) who migrated, were compensated by the Indian govenment in form of seats in professional colleges, shops in Delhi and Jammu.You do not even have a clue what happened." !

Who created this MYTH? "Secular" media by hiding the Story of Kashmir. When this will be confronted with 1000s upon 1000s Documents, facts, it will be termed as Communal Approach. But when its white-washed by Sunni Fanatics, with the active help of Left-fundamentalist intelligentia, it will be Termed as "secularism". This is precisely the problem of Indian Secularism, which doesn't want to face the reality, and thus distort.

What's the harm in accepting that Sunni Fundamentalists did this great harm with Saudi Money, and with the help of Mullahs from Bihar/UP? Is Islam a terrorist religion, or these people are giving a bad name to a great religion?

Why so much to hide? Why are we applying "moral relativism" here? How can we face somebody, who ask: Gujrat is Bad, but NOT Kashmir?

Isn't that the dilema we are facing today? Is it NOT better to condemn EVERY ACT OF TERRORISM?

Fact is, 500,000 people were driven out, killed, maimed, raped from Kashmir by coordinated action of Sunni fundamentalists. It didn't happen ONLY in Kashmir. It happens everyday in Bangladesh, Pakistan..all Muslim Majority Countries.

How much Kashmiris were compenseted? Govt Spent more money per capita on Food for Muslim terrorists in Jail, than on Kashmiris who lost their home, families, everything!

Mr Chandu, your comments do not bear out the experiences of numerous Kashmiris I have interacted with. There is ample factual information available that is in total contrast of your response. How can you forget the loudspeakers, from the mosques, asking Hindus to leave (but leave their daughters behind) the valley – I was there and heard it myself!? How about targeted killings of so many Hindu professors and intellectuals? What about numerous rapes of Hindu women – 1500 were reported between 1989 and 1994? How about repeated assertions of JEM, LET, HUM, till 2002, that Hindus are ‘infidel’ and deserve to die? Of course, Muslims are dying now because hardly any Hindus are left.

Mr Chandu would do well to read something on this site itself: http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20021 115&fname=ajayraina&sid=1

Or better ask any Indian Army/BSF/Rastriya Rifel Jawans whoever spent few months in Kashmir. I have one uncle who spent years in Kashmir. Would like me to express the real stroy of Kashmir? How much people Hate Indians, what do they do? How they hate Indian Amry personnel driven from their religious hate?

In a way, Arundhuti Roys of this world are responsible for this mess in India. As somebody (Farukh?) already pointed it out: May be 1-2 % of Muslims were involved in atricities. Our intelligentia is paralyzed, and that's why they are called Pseduo-Secular. Is Islam a Great religion? Sure, it gave voice, dignity to millions of poor, oppressed since time immemorial. It has done great service to mankind. But does it mean, these Fanatics, thugs, terrorists are following Islam? What are we worried about? Unless these Hypocrats understand that they are digging their own grave, by this utterly disgusting "moral relativism", we will continue to loose the battle, as well as the war to the unsuspecting Hindus of India.

Apply the Logic that more Muslims are killed in Kashmir to present day Iraq. What do we see? Sunnis fighting against Americans, or fighting against Shiites who are getting killed more and more. What did we see, even in Vietnam? More Vietnamese got killed by themselves, or by Americans? Does it mean, it was Intra-Vietnamese war?

Its a pathetic, perverted logic, and derives its power from totally discredited people like Arundhuti Roy. Lets face the world bravely. what is there to Hide. Those temples were NOT destroyed by present day Indian Muslims. But by Suppressing those, giving spins like these, aren't we making the whole discourse suspect and discredited?

What is there to hide, my friends? Lets face the brave world, analyse, discuss it together, understand each others follies, and move on. That will have 1000 times Greater, meaningful impact than Crocodile-tears like this one from Arundhuti Roy! Nobody is perfect in this world. But that doesn't mean, we will NOT discuss imperfectness, that too selectively!

"Lets face the brave world, analyse, discuss it together, understand each others follies, and move on."

Minu Chatterji, you have spoken the truth. Thanks.

Minu and Deepak,
And to all those who think I have distorted the facts:

The article on this web site was written by Ajay Raina, a kashmiri pandit who may or may not have the presented the whole story with a slight bias.As for you Uncle Ms Minu, he has been told to fight this enemy and he certainly will have biased story to tell after all he would have been the one being fired upon.Look ! point here is , the way people distort facts to reflect their bias. This occurs on the both sides of the spectrum.I see no difference in fanaticism of the people here and islamic fanatics. Every body is spiting poison against each other. It is only when you put aside your personal or religious bias,caused by your upbringing or cultural narrow mindedness, and try to think objectively, read not what you want to or agree with but also what you dont.It is only then you will find that truth.I guess we have a long way to go....

" It is only when you put aside your personal or religious bias,caused by your upbringing or cultural narrow mindedness, and try to think objectively, read not what you want to or agree with but also what you dont."

So Chandu, you sound so sweet and reasonable, so tell me why you lied with a bare face about Kashmiri pundits getting compensation. They have not been paid a single penny by any govt. so far while they rot in their internment camps in New Delhi. Bare-faced liars like you deserve all the poisono that is spit on them. Have a nice day, and ask your terrorist friends to call you on a pay phone instead of your cell phone.

"read not what you want to or agree with but also what you dont."

Chandu's lovely little prose here seems to say that all "facts" like his "fact" that Kashmiri pundits have been aadequately compenstated, have to be treated at par with REAL facts. Guess what, chandu, you cannot convince people that they have to treat your lie at par with known facts, which can be verified by paying a visit to a Kashmiri pundit refugee camp.

Chandu wrote: " Ajay Raina, a kashmiri pandit who may or may not have the presented the whole story with a slight bias.As for you Uncle Ms Minu, he has been told to fight this enemy and he certainly will have biased story to tell after all he would have been the one being fired upon....It is only when you put aside your personal or religious bias,caused by your upbringing or cultural narrow mindedness, and try to think objectively, read not what you want to or agree with but also what you dont."

So, Ajay Raina is biased, my Uncle (Indian Army officer) is Biased..but Arundhuti Roys, Romila Thapars are NOT. Is that you want to say? If that, then nobody can complain:)) See the pathetic "moral relativism" !

However, there are 1000s of people like my uncle, who sacrifice their life, their family, their happiness to keep this "India" Intact. And on a purely (il)logical plane, we are discrediting them as "biased". Sure, he is biased, but to keep the Country intact. This is classic anarchism, de-la Arundhuti Style. Isn't it?

The Bigger question is: we are creating a democracy, discourse, where Arundhuti Roys can write about Pains, anguishes one Kashmiri Muslim (SAR Geelani) in Delhi, with flowing prose, from Deep-inside their heart. But aren't there 500,000 Stories of similar Kind which can be derived from Kashmir? Why even ONLY Kashmiri Pandits. What about Shiites undergoing mis-treatment in kargil Areas. Or Buddhists in Ladakh?

This is the discourse which we are told is "secular", "scientific", "democratic" and what not. Its anything but those. Its a pathetic Sunni-pampering discourse.

And lo..Behold. This poor chap, Raina, who made an excellent Movie on Kashmiris, and their plight. But the Film-fraternity (leading lights whose name we hear everyday) did everything to stop it from being shown in FIlm festivals. It happened last week, in Calcutta as well. But there were no outrage from Arundhuti Roy!

Remember Aijaz Ahmed, leading marxist thinker? he wrote an article which appeared in Frontline, "Socialist World" last year, where he actually gave certificate to none-other than Bin-Laden. The issue was: Bombings, killings of Shiites in Post-Saddam Iraq, even in Holy Places like Najaf/Karbala. Aijaz Ahmed wrote: These cannot be done by laden because he is "too religious". What do we see today? Its Sunnis using terrorism against Shiites, including their holy-places. Al-Queda has funded, contributed to Shiite Killing/devastation everywhere, be it in Pakistan, Iraq..

So, Arundhuti Roy is NOT alone in this game. A Select group of people, take the name of Free-Speech, democracy, minority rights, but actually does the opposite!

Ms. Arundhuti Roy: I can send you 500,000 Stories from Kashmir alone like this SAR Geelani Episode. Would you please write those. They are also innocent like Geelani, but they are NOT SUNNI. They are Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Shiites from Kashmir. Would you please write about them?

Arjun,
Kashmiri pandits get a monthly stipend of 2500 from the government of India. Their children got addmision in top colleges - Stevens in Delhi and Francis in Bombay under a special refugee quota, most of them, not all I must admit have currently sold their homes in Kashmir through agents at soaring prices,and what about the shops given to Pundits in Delhi which they have sold at a profit and returned to refugee camps? Talk about Refugee camps, In Jammu, there were more cases of rapes of kashmiri pandits girls by local community of which majority is hindu,than in kashmir itself.Every body knows , but nobody reports.All am saying is, in a conflict both sides suffer. You do not have to beat your chests,cry and exaggerate. Everybody suffered Muslims, Hindus alike. Lets try not to blame somebody (sunnis- Ms Minu) which is so easy than try and find what actually happened. As I said before, we have a long long way to go.

By the way Ms Minu I do not have any thing against your Uncle I respect people who fight for their country. Please I beg you all to leave your personal bias (in case of Arjun Matoo - A Kashmiri I am guessing) and religious bias ( in your case Ms Minu) and try inculcate objective thinking.

Over and out...

Chandu wrote: "In Jammu, there were more cases of rapes of kashmiri pandits girls by local community of which majority is hindu,than in Kashmir itself." And then " try inculcate objective thinking.."

Pure and Simple Sunni Rants which we all are tired of. And this is Objectivity! Feeding Jihadi discourse under Pseduo Name which is evident when one writes: ''..your Uncle I respect people who fight for their country.."

No Indian, be Hindu, Muslim, Sikh..whatever their religion is, will EVER Write like this. And sure, the world is watching Sunni terrorism, and taking care of it. I sincerely hope, people like Arundhuti Roy see their perilious conclusions drawn from their article (More Muslims are geiing killed in kashmir was her logic in another piece) and make necessary corrections.

Your Articles, discourses are being used by these Sunni fanatics: Don't you see Ms Roy?

I am trying to understand why there is so much divergence in the way people perceive Arundhati Roy's article on the Geelani episode. What are the main bones of contention? Are there lies deliberately told, that is falsehoods presented as facts? If so, which ones. Are there viewpoints or opinions discussed which are far too radical or too objectionable, or are they within the wide range of theorizing permitted in a democratic society? Which of her "takes" can be considered to be unacceptable? Please bear with me if my questions sound too naive, but I feel that they do merit a serious discussion.

"Everybody suffered Muslims, Hindus alike. Lets try not to blame somebody .."

How Sweet! Lets also NOT blame Hitler, because germany was devastated. Or Japan, because it was Nuked? Why it was started in the first place? Thinking, Sunnis could pull it off with Arab Money, and doctrine of Jihad? Isn't the same persecution happening in other parts of kashmir as well, against Shiites, Agha-Khan followers? You simply cannot hide today, Mr. Chandu. There are too much of Info available.

"All am saying is, in a conflict both sides suffer.."

Very bad, isn't it? How long will this Sunni agenda will be pursued at the cost of others? I am sure, Arundhuti Roys of the world will make necessary correction. As their very existance will be at stake. She will simply cease to exist, should a Sunni-powered govt comes to India, god forbid ever! Mahesh Bhatt is understanding that today, I guess, when her Heroine is fined for a Kiss. All Khans of Bollywood would be out-of business, should a taliban comes in India, ever.

Ghulam Faruki,

"Ashok, as you say, people do terrible things to each other in this world. The changes may be slow but they are there. Polygamy is almost non-existent in India. Old style penalties for criminal offences are obsolete in the majority of the Muslim world. More and more women are getting educated and entering the professions. But we have a long way to go"

Faruki, it is clear that you hv not been to the real Islamic world and countries like Saudi Arabia where hands are stll being amputated and beheading are still taking place. So much for changes!

And women slowly getting their rights- are u smoking something? They can't even drive a car showing their nail-polish while their husbands are having fun in Hyderabad and Europe- Polygamy????

Polygamy is alive n kicking in the whole of Muslim world and Talaq by SMS or e-mail is still acceptable.

What changes r u talking abt, brother Faruki?

If changes are taking place in India, not much credit goes to the Muslims but the combined liberating influence of Hindus, Christians and Sikhs which has made the Muslims realise the futility and hypocrisy of chaining their own women to the orthodoxy. And even then, Muslims are the lowest in terms of development and growth indexes.

But then, isn't it so convenient to blame Hindus and Khaki Knickerwallahs for that?

Wake up!!!

Ashok, Saudi Arabia is the worst possible example one could pick. But you see movement in Turkey and Iraq, where women vote and can drive a car, women have occupied positions of leadership in Indonesia, Bangladesh and Pakistan and there are several Muslim women doctors and lawyers in our subcontinent. Admittedly the progress is too too slow for my taste, but we do not want to fall in the trap of picking only the worst examples when looking at some one else's community, and picking the best when looking at one's own.

Chandu Prakash (!!) writes, “Kashmiri pandits get a monthly stipend of 2500 from the government of India…” So it is OK to be hounded out of one’s house, land as long as they are compensated. In fact it must be considered as advantageous as not only a place in refugee camp they seem to have also cornered for themselves a “stipend” too. And holy Toledo, some of them are making extra bit on the side.

I would like to ask that how come these displaced people not evoke same sentiments in Arundhati and company on basis of which they stalled the Sardar Sarovar Project when the tribals were being relocated and mind you not being ghettoised. It is true that if the interest of tribals had not attracted such high profile attention, corrupt officers and locals would have cheated them of their fair share.

But the deafening silence of these luminaries in face of this human tragedy unfolding itself over last fifteen years, casts doubts about their good intentions. Arundhati has some explaining to do as she is such a prolific writer with views on anything and everything, experts be damned. But the lady chooses well and only chooses those issues that will ensure her publicity. It is clear that the tribals presented better photo opportunities and recognition from her western beneficiaries where her real market lies. Also taking up kashmiri hindus cause would bring her at cross purpose with her other rabble rousers.

We need to ask how and when this displaced populace will get to return HOME. How many more generations of Indians will pay for the (mis)deeds of egotist Nehru?

What Chandu Prakash has to say is “I guess we have a long way to go....” You are right. But it is you who needs to do the going.


This pathogenic liar Chandu Prakash claims that the Pandits sold their properties at profit. To borrow a quote from RAJESH, “Even a child with down’s syndrome” would know that fleeing pandits would not have the bargaining power. Even if they did manage to sell at very high rate then how did the poor Kashmiris who bought the properties afford it in first place. Do read Raina’s article in Central Chronicle for answer. And you say nothing about the “grabbed” properties.

It is ridiculous how some people expose their double standards (and what not) in these columns by lauding Arundhati for the causes she stands for –which are the tribals and jhuggis in Mumbai among other things. And they turn around and claim that pundits have been adequately compensated! But that you see is ‘objective thinking’ Chandu claims!!

Ghulam Faruki,

I have been reading the discussion between Muslims and Hindus on this forum and after observing for many years, I can safely condense the course of this debate, based on many such debates, on the following lines:

1. All Sweet Reasonableness Mode: Here Muslims are in the ‘Islam is a religion of peace’ mode and wish to sound all reasonable, logical, rational and sweet. This is generally from those living in the safety of a minority, because the minute Muslims r in majority- there is a cataclysmic change and all concepts of democracy, human rights and secularism evaporate in thin air.

2. Denial Mode: When Muslims r challenged by facts of history and the violent ethos of Islam, Osama, Fidayeen culture, the lack of equality between men n women n so on even now, they resort to the dictum- deny, deny and deny. There r many manifestations of this- ‘no, it is Hindu/ Christian/ Khaki Knickerwallah conspiracy to malign the noble religion of Islam and nice Muslims’- is the commonest.

3. Defensive/Confrontation Mode: Here the Muslims take a stand that "it is not Islam alone but all the other religions also who have these problems. And don’t u badger us for we r doing it on our own. It is slow but happening- so take a walk!"

4. Refusal Mode: When confronted with the rigid dictates of Sharia, fundamentalist Mullahs and Holy Quran- the helplessness of educated Muslims is translated into defiance and rage, which translates into- ‘so what, we r like that only! Do whatever you like’ or finally- ‘Islam is in danger and any attempt to bring changes will be construed as an attack on Islam’. Period.

We will talk abt Turkey n Malaysia later.

In the meanwhile, in which of this stages/mode mentioned above are you?

Ashok, it is easy to put people in pigeonholes, but I do not understand what your point is. Are you saying that Islam will never undergo reform? Are you saying that as a religion it is finished? Neither you nor I know how historical forces will unfold. There is no question that Islam has to adapt to the times. But you surely know how huge a task it is to get over a billion people spread over 50 countries to accept and to adapt to such changes. There are in fact several young liberal Muslim thinkers in US, Europe, Egypt and India who are pushing for changes, and building a following.

"Kashmiri pandits get a monthly stipend of 2500 from the government of India. Their children got addmision in top colleges - Stevens in Delhi and Francis in Bombay under a special refugee quota, most of them, not all I must admit have currently sold their homes in Kashmir through agents at soaring prices,"

Well, Chandu Prakash, I was wondering why you forgot to mention the little fact that the pandits did not have an option as their muslim neighhbours had already taken over their property. Prime property around srinagar that too.

"alk about Refugee camps, In Jammu, there were more cases of rapes of kashmiri pandits girls by local community of which majority is hindu,than in kashmir itself.Every body knows , but nobody reports.All am saying is, in a conflict both sides suffer. You do not have to beat your chests,cry and exaggerate. "

You are what is known in more polite company as a sphincter. How dare you speak so lightly of the ethnic cleansing of the kashmiri pundits and others by the jihadi types in Kashmir. Would you speak so lightly if it happened to your sister or a member of you family. You are the typical "secular" hypocrite who would be wailing and moaning about gujarat but then say "claims are exagerrated" about the kashmiri pundits. Do people like you have no shame?

Anyway, to get back onto topic, there is the very real possibility that SAR Geelani knew about the parliament attack, since he was close to the terrorists who attacked parliament. That itself is crime enough for him to be a target of perennial surveillance.

Why not put Arundhati Roy in Jail? She causes a lot of heartburn and makes people suffer because of her silly thoughts.
In any case, she and her democratic friends have accused each and every government department in India of being anti-something (add anything in place of something). So, its not a bad idea to put her in jail instead of Mr. Geelani or any other terrorist.

kashmiri pandits have been adequately compensated. Its become a their habbit to use evey media and make their problems look larger than life. In a country where people are dying of hunger (melghat) there is no need to pay any attention to the rants of pandits. There are other important things that need attention in the country.

Chandu Prakash, I noted your response to Dharamyug. You say "All the Kashmiri Pandit community migrated at the behest of Jagmohan." Do you seriously think this is possible. Please give a break to your investigative mind. Have you forgotten Chattisginghpora where 52 Sikhs were killed on the eve of Bill Clinton's visit. Lets blame Jagmohan for that. Where is your family Chandu Prakask -- I am sure they must not be in Kashmir. So did Jagmohan force you too. You say you survived the hell of late 80's and early nineties. Who created the hell. Was it jagmohan again?

Asok

Please go through my answers to the points raised by you.

1.Word Islam itself means peace. In a nutshell Islam is nothing but submission to the will of God as is made known to us through Prophets like, Jesus, Moses, Muhammad and possibly those prophets who had come to India. Holy Quran have itself stated that there is no coercion in religion. If people go against the scriptural dictates and does unacceptable actions you cant hold Islam responsible for the same. Yes, Islam does advocate war on evil, as Krishna did to Arjun, but there are strict guidelines to be followed, under no circumstance can innocents be targeted.

2. Why single out Islam. Was it Muslims who annihilated red Indians? Were we involved in Holocaust? What about Hiroshima Naga saki & Vietnam? Remember what Stalin did in the name of Communism and Modi did in the name of Hiindutva. Evil people will always do evil deeds. For their actions they will find excuses in Religions and ideologies that they think will suit them.

3. I am not aware of any inherent problem in Islam and I do not know about other religions.

4. There are timeless values that are dictated by Holy Quran and those values need to be adhered to. However, there is also provision for Ijithihad, that is timely interpretation based on research, if Muslims are unwilling to do that blame them and not Islam.

Regards

It is pathetic that this lady's anti-national write ups are consistently published in Outlook. Her poetic diatribe against the country is an affront to the sensibilities to the common man. It is time that people shun her write ups and those who facilitate these seditious writings. If at all Outlook has got any respect for its readers, I request to stop these kinds of anti national fiction in your magazine.

O yeah... pandits have been adequately compensated. If they would have left their women behind as dircted by the Islamic terrorists, they might have been compensated better.

Which madarssah did you go to Rajesh(a.k.a Laden)?

so now jehadis funded by saudi money are taking up fake indian names and crowding up this board!!

Shakeel n Ghulam Faruki,

Leave aside this accuser-accused positions n let’s raise some basic questions:

1. If ‘Islam is a religion of peace’, why it has NEVER been at peace with itself and/or with ANY other religion in the world?

2. ‘Holy Quran has itself stated that there is no coercion in religion’. So what then is the concept of Kafirs and why Quran sanctions to convert them to Islam or kill them?

3. ‘If people go against the scriptural dictates and does unacceptable actions you cant hold Islam responsible for the same’. True- but why then the Muslim world makes such people who go against the scripture heroes n martyrs?

4. ‘under no circumstance can innocents be targeted’- nice, but have we seen any Muslim openly condemning those who kill innocent people- be it in Twin Tower, Spain or Kashmir? And please- no justifications/excuse by using ‘Evil US, Israel and others’ because two wrongs do not make one right.

5. ‘Why single out Islam. Was it Muslims who annihilated red Indians? Were we involved in Holocaust? What about Hiroshima Naga saki & Vietnam? Remember what Stalin did in the name of Communism and Modi did in the name of Hiindutva.’ But we Hindus, Christians n Sikhs do criticize them. But, it is the silent majority of Muslims who revel in denial, defensive n self-righteous mode on these atrocities committed by Muslims that makes us wonder.

6. ‘I am not aware of any inherent problem in Islam and I do not know about other religions.” Sad that the glaring oppression and inequality of women sanctioned by Islam does not touch yr hearts!

7. ‘There are timeless values that are dictated by Holy Quran and those values need to be adhered to. However, there is also provision for Ijithihad, that is timely interpretation based on research, if Muslims are unwilling to do that blame them and not Islam.’ Thank you for small mercies- for sparing the usual suspects (Hindus, Christians n Jews).

8. Who is stereotyping Muslims, Faruk? You search yr heart. U reject education, family planning, social/family reforms n then ask innocently ‘Are you saying that Islam will never undergo reform?’ U tell me?

9. ‘Are you saying that as a religion it is finished?’ NO. Never.

10. But, where r the changes/adaptations with changing times in Muslim societies throughout the world during last 100 years? Pl enlighten us, willya?

"kashmiri pandits have been adequately compensated. Its become a their habbit to use evey media and make their problems look larger than life."

You mean, unlike the sunni muslims and saudi-influenced muslims who do exactly that, even when their "problems" are all self-inflicted? You are some pakistani hiding behind an Indian name, or you are one of the Indian jihadi thugs like SAR Geelani who go around trying to create public sympathy for getting around the law, even when they have colluded with terrorists that tried to cause mayhem and bloodshed in the Indian parliament --- considered an act of war in most other countries.

" In a country where people are dying of hunger (melghat) there is no need to pay any attention to the rants of pandits. "

Yes, instead we should all pay attention to lying scum like you who pooh-pooh the ethnic cleansing of hindu minorities by the muslim majority in Kashmir. The real monsters in India are those like you, who push around the jihadi agenda under the cover of your non-existent secularism.

Ashok, One can come up with such a list of rants against any religion, but I won't, because such lists are always products of selective memory, and all they do is to cause others to come up with counter lists, and this process could go on for ever. With fires raging in Kashmir, Gujerat and Nagaland, this is the time to be dousing the fires rather than pointing fingers at each others' religion. I wish you well.

For the very last time to set the records straight, I was a born hindu and will remain one till my death.I have been called sunni fundamentalist, friend of a terrorist and a what not one this chat. It is this mentality of "if you are not one of us then you of them" will not take to you far. Open up your mind you people, think think hard. Just because you father or somebody told you hindus/ muslims are bad , does not make every hindu or a muslim bad.STOP STEREOTYPING !!!
Get rid of your cultural taboos and stigmas which make you so naive and myopic that you cannot even think a furlong beyond your front door. Please! some of you are living abroad. Is this the type of hatred you are going to give to your kids? Kids who are going to grow up with a muslim, hindu, jew or christian. I am telling you folks, you kids one day will tell you straight on your face that you are and were a Hypocrite.

Chandu writes:
"Open up your mind you people, think think hard. Just because you father or somebody told you hindus/ muslims are bad , does not make every hindu or a muslim bad."

For a scumbag who just pooh-poohed the ethnic cleansing in Kashmir, poured scorn on the sufferings of pundits, and lied about the status of the hindu refugees from Kashmir, you certainly have the temerity to talk about "opening the mind".

"Get rid of your cultural taboos and stigmas which make you so naive and myopic that you cannot even think a furlong beyond your front door. "

The sphincters of the world with such attitudes, who lie about the sufferings of Indian non muslims , probably with the "good intention" of being politically correct, must understand that their double standards on "communal harmony" and "secularism", which wink at muslim communalism and hatred and bigotry, while screaming hoarse about hindu communalism, will not be tolerated by anyone who has a conscience and a sense of fairness and justice --- obviously the sphincters of the world, and the chandu prakashes of the world are not part of this crowd that demands fairness and has an appetite for the truth, however ugly it may be.

"Is this the type of hatred you are going to give to your kids? Kids who are going to grow up with a muslim, hindu, jew or christian."

What about the kids who get blown up or shot in the next act of terror in India by islamic bigots and fundamentalists of SAR Geelani's kind and Madani of Al Umma, and the hate-mongering jihadi bigots in the SIMI? What do you think they will be telling their parents?



" I am telling you folks, you kids one day will tell you straight on your face that you are and were a Hypocrite. "

That's a laugh. If there is anyone who will be accused of hypocrisy, it will be the likes of you, make no mistake about that.

"One can come up with such a list of rants against any religion, but I won't, because such lists are always products of selective memory, and all they do is to cause others to come up with counter lists, and this process could go on for ever. "

Is that so, let us see you list without a selective memory, all the acts of terror committed by hindu. christian, and jewish groups since 1950. I will then print out, without a selective memory, all the riots and the mayhem caused by muslim groups since then. Sound fair enough to you?

That should prove whether your "all religions are as bad as islam" is a statement of fact or the typical excuses thrown out by muslims who are confronted by the fact that their religion officially sanctions mayhem and murder of non muslims and secular muslims who want to live in peace with everyone.

Islam needs to be reformed by muslims to be a kinder, gentler version of itself, like the version practised by the sufis, shias, ahmeddiyas, and others. EXCEPT the sunni muslims, who are the global terrorists giving a bad name to all muslims, have been ethnically cleansing the sufis, ahmeddiyas, shias, and other more tolerant and secular-oriented strains of islam. Sunni muslims, the wahabbis and the deobandis, can no longer hide behind the "islam is under threat" excuse when they are told to face up to the nature of their version of islam.

Chandu wrote:
"For the very last time to set the records straight, I was a born hindu and will remain one till my death."

That does not give you the license to pooh-pooh the sufferings of hindus, do you understand? So what if you claim to be a hindu, most of the communists who hate hinduism were born hindus, and have no qualms about denigrating hinduism.

"I have been called sunni fundamentalist, friend of a terrorist and a what not one this chat. "

That is because you seem to support those bigoted attitudes exhibited by the average sunni fundamentalist...if the shoe fits...

"I have been called sunni fundamentalist.." --Chandru

It hardly matters whether one really is Sunni Terrorist by religious conviction. Or by "moral relativism". Some one spoke about Aijaz Ahmed, a "most respected marxist idealogue". But even a Aijaz Ahmed give certificates to a Bin-Laden & his team. "Bin-Laden is too religious to organize bombings in Shiite religious paces", that's how he wrote in an article, which was cover story in "Socialist International", a standard magazine.

My contention is: we are worshipping false Gods like Aijaz Ahmed and Arundhuti Roys and so many others. The world knows what Bin-Laden & his group is, how they treated non-Sunnis, including non-Sunni Muslims. Even in Kashmir under Pakistan Control how Shiites, others were butchered.

Why their Brain freezes, when it comes to Sunni terrorism? The world knows what's the source of Batthist Idealogy, isn't it? Sunni Fundamentalism. These idealogues are Singularly responsible for death, destruction in Kashmir. The root of Kashmir Cleansing didn't start by pakistan. It was started by Sunni Wahabism, Saudi-FUnded religious Schools between 1960s-1980s. We are yet to comprehend the full scale of it. It was manned by Mullahs from Uttar Pradesh and Bihar. Those teachers didn't come from Pakistan/Saudi Arabia. We closed our eyes, allowed them to flourish, and now we have it. Does a Shiite, follower of Aga Khan, Hindus/Buddhists have equal rights as Sunni Muslims or not?

I know atleast 10 Kurdish people who cried in Joy when Iraq was invaded, Saddam was toppled. They are also Muslim. They are also Sunni. Why they were killed, raped, maimed, driven out from their homes in Norther Iraq? Why? Why a Arundhuti Roy, Aijaz Ahmed never writes about the plight of these Kurdish People?

Kurdhish people had endured what Hindus/Buddhists endured in Kashmir. Kurds are Sunni as well. So, even Sunni fundamentalkism needs to be changed to Sunni Arab Fundamentalism and its spawn offs: like Madrassas, terrorists.

So, like the Animal-Farm (orwell), some people are more equal than others. Indian Democracy, free-speech, Liberty, Secularism, the whole discourse is penetrated, used to fulfil the goal of Sunni Terrorists, and fundamentalists. Its a fact of life. And we have to pay a heavy price for that. We already are paying with our bloods.

Ghulam Saheb

seems like you are much capable of differentiating between facts and fiction.
I am trying to understand why there is so much divergence in the way people perceive Arundhati Roy's article on the Geelani episode. What are the main bones of contention?
The divissiveness is there becuase people like A. Roy are feeding on it. Ever S. Anand's hate propaganda ?

Are there lies deliberately told, that is falsehoods presented as facts? If so, which ones.

-->Absolutely. Arundhati Roy is lying through the teeth. She claims to have received an email reacting to her article even before her articel was published.

Are there viewpoints or opinions discussed which are far too radical or too objectionable, or are they within the wide range of theorizing permitted in a democratic society?
--> She is not only radical. She actively supports fragmentation of India, support armed conflict within India. She is a Marxist ANARCHIST.
She claims to represent tribal and somehow she is the one who has a house in tribal land ? Whom is she trying to fool ?


Which of her "takes" can be considered to be unacceptable? Please bear with me if my questions sound too naive, but I feel that they do merit a serious discussion.

--> Her questions are presented in beutiful prose, and assume that readers are ignorant of her record. She has lied on more than one occassion while 'reporting' about Gujrat. Outlook lends space to her because Outlook share the BALKANIZATION OF INDIA agenda with her. Her assertions and questions are leading and purposefully present a picture of a state which is actively supporting persecution of Kashmiri muslims. Reality is exectly opposite. India is giving hugh financial support to J&K. J&K has least % ratio of poverty among ALL the indian states, BIHAR included.

And how our Media reacts to these? They simply hide. But in today's Google-ed world, its becoming very very problemetic for them. Because you cannot stop every piece of information.

Being from Bengal and a liberal Hindu family, my heart boils when I see somebody throwing stone at a Shiite procession taken out in Muhharram. We grew up reading "Bishad Sindhu" written by Mir Mussharaf Hussain, a leading bengali Writer on late 19th Century. The Story of Karbala, Hussan-Hussain, their martyardom is supreme story of sacrifice, human values.

But what we see in Lucknow, and lots of other places in India today? These Processions are pelted stones? By whom? SUNNIS, who else. Has a Aijaz Ahmed, Arundhuti Roy ever wrote on that? Have we condemned that? Nope.

Instead, we ban those processions, and close our eyes thinking, everything is resolved now. Who has own this battle? We simply surrendered to Sunni Fundamentalism. But in the present discourse, that's treated as a "victory" for secularism. Its funny, isn't it? Will it work? It will NEVER work. Even a Child can understand that.

Sorry for Typo:

Instead, we ban those processions, and close our eyes thinking, everything is resolved now. Who has won this battle? We simply surrendered to Sunni Fundamentalism. But in the present discourse, that's treated as a "victory" for secularism. Its funny, isn't it? Will it work? It will NEVER work. Even a Child can understand that.

We are buying peace with Sunni Fundamentalists, by surrendering Liberty, Freedom, religious rights, free-speech....And emboldening them in the process. The most painful part is: I haven't seen a SINGLE article, in any Newspaper (I follow Bengali & Engalih newspapers, magazines closely), which has condemned this stone pelting in Lucknow.

Its insane.

"Please! some of you are living abroad...."

Arundhuti Roys of this world are Blind, and they are making gullible supporters like you blinder.

These people, whom Ms Roy wrote against, are designed, programmed, traineed in factories what we call "Indian Secular Education". These people were NOT created in US. They, being educated enough, tried to make a living from oppurtunities created by globalization. All of these people Stuudied the history Books written by Romila Thapar.

Bangalore, India's High-Tech Capital, in deep south has both member of Parliament from Hindu Right.

Before advent of Gandhi, Indian National Congress was effectively controlled by Hindu Nationalists. Because in Cities, small towns they were always supporters of these nationalists.

As I wrote before: Look at how we are handling the Stone-throwing at a Shiite procession in Lucknow. If it were a secular, democrati country, the following things should be done:

(1) In a short term scale, call all religious leaders from Lucknow, and tell them its Shiites rights to take out procession. Those who object, try to obstruct will be ruthlessly handled by police
(2) Look into who are instigating these feelings of hatred. Shutdown those Madrassas.
(3) Look at who are financing those madrassas. Shutdown those charities.
(4) Apply the same logic across all parts of the country, all religions, all groups.

There must not be any ifs and buts. Everybody, Every majority, minority MUST BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE TO ONE LAW APPLICABLE TO ALL. Appeasement to Sunni Fundamentalists is surrender to them which will destroy this country.

I am sure Ms. Roy is aware of the case pending in the supreme court. I

Does Ms. Roy also consider how much demanding the thankless job of a policeman/soldier must be. They are not fat cats prowling around for new victims.

If they are in Kashmir or N-East and doing whatever they are doing, it is because democratically elected governments have asked them to do so.

Take a break, see the view from the other side also.

MS Roy is nothing but a self serving, pontificating and judgemental women who has never heard of the idiom 'practise what you preach'.
On her point of 'hyper-nationalism', if she has so much problem with being a patriot she is welcome to renounce her Indian citizenship and retire to Timbuktoo.
Its people like her who gorge on the Western media's hunger for indian stereotypes of poverty, hunger, pain and suffering and make their 'hay'!
But what can we expect from a woman who can do anything for publicity and has no respect for the law of the land.

Will Arundathi explain us how she got the mail from india patriot even before the article was published?And also this mail by India patriot isnt anywhere in the rants and raves column or in the feedback column to this article.So who wrote this mail?How did it figure in the article even before it was published?why did this mail not figure in the rants and raves column?

arundathi has some explanations to do about the origins of this mail from india patriot.

Sampath Kumar,

Ive mentioned this before & Ill mention it again. AR is a very smart person. She writes fiction for a living. The letter from India Patriot is also fiction. It is the kind of letter she anticipated will come from the Indian patriots in the diaspora esp the USA and specifically the IT guys ... Thats her pre-emptive strike ... plain & simple ...

well, Thank you India for providing an avenue for everybody to express themselves.. I hope Arundati appreciates that.. God bless the Indians for they will never elect this terrorist supporter to a position of power.. Never does she mention once that Geelani was convicted before he was acquitted... Why would she then it would be bringing up the terrorists complicity..

A discourse on "india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa" as mentioned by Arundhuti Roy (AR).

This refererence to "India Patriot" by Arundhuti Roy (AR) is symbolic, and not real. There is a demonstrated degree of "Patriotic feelings" amongst Indians who Work/live in USA/West, and it causes huge heart-burn amongst "secular" Indian intelligentia. Romila Thapar and many other have expressed their displeasure at this mant times. I have the following observation on AR's comments on "Indian patriots":

1. At the very outset, doesn't AR appear allergic towards Patriotism? Is Arundhuti preferring "nationalism" over "patriotism", and thus ready to reorganize the Nation-State as originating Principles of the Indian Civilization, and the last word in the Country's political Life?

This Position (preferring Nationalism Over patriotism) is very much against two intellectual Gurus of Nehru: Gandhi and Tagore. These two Gurus of Nehru didn;t want their Society to be caught in a situation, where the idea of the Indian Nation would supersede that of Indian Civilization, and where the actual ways of Life of Indians would be assessed SOLELY in terms of the needs of the an imaginary nation-State called India.

For Tagore, nationalism itself became gradually illegitimate. For Gandhi, nationalism began to include a critique of nationalism itself. For both, Indian freedom struggle gradually ceased to an expression of ONLY nationalist consolidation. It came to acquire a NEW STATURE AS A SYMBOL OF THE UNIVERSAL STRUGGLE for POLITICAL JUSTICE AND CULTURAL DIGNITY.

Is Arundhuti aware that she is crossing lines, as far as founding fathers are concerned?

2. These Indians are well educated, from middle class, fruits of Indiaa's great secular education. Hardly any of these went to RSS's "hate" schools! Most of these people fall in the age group who MUST have read the History books written by Eminent people like Mrs. Thapar etc.

Would Arundhuti, and specially educationist like Thapar give us an honest answer here! Why did they fail? What went wrong that the best and brightest become a willing partner of Hindu-Right?

3. Most of these people in the West/Europe are NOT from Hindi-Heartland (no provincial rants please..its just a plain & simple fact). A Good many of them are from the southern states, where Hindu-nationalists traditionally have/had a miniscule presence. So what went wrong Ms Arundhuti Roy?

So, its kind of your own failure? Middle class Indians, fruits of India's Secular Education are becoming "patriotic", and that's what you are against?

Why are you loosing the game? What's the reason behind that? These are no Fanatic "Hindu" as far as religion is concerned! So, what is happening here?

A discourse on "india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa" as mentioned by Arundhuti Roy (AR).

Opps..I forgot to tell the most important fact as far as NRIs are concerned:

Gandhi, the father of the nation, understood Indian Culture, Hindu religion in England. There were couple of Small but dedicated passive groups in England, who used to love India, its religion, culture. These Group (Indo-Mania) were replaced by aggressive anti-Indian Indo-phobic group at later stage of Colonial history because of Political/religious compulsion. So the real lovers of India went much below, but they did maintain their presence, alebit low-profile.

Aurobindo was also converted to "Indian" by these same group, like Gandhi.

So, Ms Arundhuti? What we see today as India, was very much created by NRI utopia, like that of father of the nation!

What's the source of your Utopia?

Ghulam Faruki, you said:
Such reforms cannot be foisted from outside.

I completely agree with this. The importance of this can't be overemphasized. Reforming Islam/the Muslim society is the job of Muslims.

Having said that, I still feel there is a role for outsiders to play too. They can subject the Islamic doctrine and religious practice to critical scruitiny. People without communal axes to grind are best suited for the purpose. The bottomline is that, if Islam refuses to reform, it will be eventually taken over by fanatics, and then the civilized world will have to move in to reform it, and when we are through with it, little of Islam as we know today will remain - much like Nazism.

Some of my notes posted yesterday seem to have been removed.

outloook keeps removing my posts. What are they afraid of ? the truth!! I am ashamed by the editors of this magazine who behave like parents tying to stop their kids from what they consider to be in-appropriate. !!. Shame on you outlook!!!

Acidburn, you say that outsiders "can subject the Islamic doctrine and religious practice to critical scruitiny" in order to bring about reforms.

I do not know of any current or past examples of any reforms resulting from outsiders subjecting a religion to such scrutiny. Such interference has always been frowned upon throughout the civilized world. What needs to be done is to gradually pass the baton of leadership to younger, more educated and less literalistic clergy. The majority community can help by exhibiting understanding and patience.

Although in general I do not agree to certain aspects of what Arundhati Roy says in her articles, essays and books; but one thing about her, which I consider is that she is a brave and intelligent lady and deserves respect. Her articles are thought provoking and as well as interesting. With respect to this article I substantially agree with what Arundhati Roy has said. It is also sad to see unsubstantiated criticism of Arundhati Roy by india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa.
I therefore have chosen to answer to few of the questions which "india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa" has made in his comment.

Question: When will she understand the difference between fiction and fact?

Answer: My dear, india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa your ignorant question suggests that you have carelessly read this article. For your kind information the case of SAR Geelani is a fact; not a fiction. His innocence is also a fact; not a fiction. He is been unreasonably harassed is also a fact; not a fiction. He suffered a life threatening attack is also a fact; not a fiction. Therefore my friend wakeup from your sleep and next time read the articles carefully.

Question: Why can't she go back to writing award-winning children's books and leave us in peace?

Answer: Of course she should be encouraged to also write children books and I hope that as and when she feels she would write them. I think that children will benefit from the writings of Arundhati. But at present Arundhati Roy is busy in more important task of taking away peace of millions of KUMBHKARNAS so that they could wake up from a fictious dream world within there sleep.

Ghulam Faruki,
The trouble is, we do not have an example of a religion reforming in a pluralistic society in modern times - the last time a reform happened was in the Middle Ages, in Europe, which was overwhelmingly Christian. So outsiders had no role in it. Things are a lot different today. Many Muslims live in multi-religioius, multi-ethnic societies, and most important, the lack of reform in Islamic societies is affecting non-Muslims in a big way. So they definitely have a stake in Islamic reforms today. However, the actual task of carrying out the reforms should be initiated and concluded by Muslims themselves.

I can't say what form the reforms could or should take - only that cosmetics do not work. Chanting 'Islam is a religion of peace' ad nauseum is not going to work. If there are in-built features in Islam that promote intolerance, those have to be exposed, criticized and changed. This the only way out. Obnoxious practices in Hinduism were weeded out not by hiding or rationalizing them away, but by exposing and ridiculing them.

Although in general I do not agree to certain aspects of what Arundhati Roy says in her articles, essays and books; but one thing about her, which I consider is that she is a brave and intelligent lady and deserves respect. Her articles are thought provoking and as well as interesting. With respect to this article I substantially agree with what Arundhati Roy has said. It is also sad to see unsubstantiated criticism of Arundhati Roy by india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa.
I therefore have chosen to answer to few of the questions which "india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa" has made in his comment.

Question: When will she understand the difference between fiction and fact?

Answer: My dear, india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa your ignorant question suggests that you have carelessly read this article. For your kind information the case of SAR Geelani is a fact; not a fiction. His innocence is also a fact; not a fiction. He is been unreasonably harassed is also a fact; not a fiction. He suffered a life threatening attack is also a fact; not a fiction. Therefore my friend wakeup from your sleep and next time read the articles carefully.

Question: Why can't she go back to writing award-winning children's books and leave us in peace?

Answer: Of course she should be encouraged to also write children books and I hope that as and when she feels she would write them. I think that children will benefit from the writings of Arundhati. But at present Arundhati Roy is busy in more important task of taking away peace of millions of KUMBHKARNAS so that they could wake up from a fictious dream world within there sleep.

Minoo Chatterji, you raise some very important points. I too cannot understand why these highly educated and very bright Indians who have been so very successful in the United States, and who probaly were not involved in right wing politics while they were in India, have been won over by rightist groups here and have given up on secularism altogether, especially since they live in and admire America which is a beacon of secularism in the world, and our Indian community here is such a huge beneficiary of American secularism

Acidburn, some of your points are well taken, but as you know there are no short-cuts to difficult tasks.

All My mails have been deleted while those calling Arubdhati a Hooker are still there. So much for the pro-muslim media?????

Mr Ghulam, let me give you some idea of what makes decent and non-religious NRIs in Middle East ‘right winger’:

1. Slamming of Hindu practices by Indian Islamic scholars who visit Middle East. What is worse is the applause by Indian Muslims every time these Indian Islamic scholars play down ‘idol worship’ and numerous other Hindu rituals.

2. Indian Muslims associations organizing essay competitions (for kids) where the topics are ‘ state on minorities in India’ and something similar. It never occurs to them that in an Islamic state it is the other religions that are minority - who do not even have one decent place for worship.

3. Vegetarian Indian food is sometimes called ‘Hindu food’.

4. Bookshops have books depicting Hindus as ‘weak’, ‘dark’ , ‘ dumb’, etc.

5. Indian Muslims aligning themselves more with ‘fellow muslims’ for ‘world wide muslim causes’ but little or no compassion for their non-muslim Indian brethrens.

6. Some muslims have stopped greetings other Indians on non-muslim festivals.

Most of the Hindus appreciate the Arabs for their hospitality and tolerance. Expatriates love UAE for the financial opportunity, security and safety it provides. And no one has a problem with anyone believing that his religion is the best – but it is the unnecessary slamming of Hindus and constant playing down of Hindu practices (by Indian Muslims) that drive people into the waiting arms of RSS.

dont see any reason to stop judging S.A.R. Geelani.
or Roy 4 that matter.

Deepak, each and every piece of behavior you have cited is reprehensible and I am deeply ashamed that these things are happening. I share your outrage. Please do not ask me what I am going to do about it, because regretably I do not have any answers. I thank you for sharing that information with me.

We have another story by Arundhati Roy. And it is very boring. But more than the story, it is the 'insulting' letter by that appears in the article which is significant. It shows that Arundhati Roy is affected by the criticism that is showered on her.

Mr G Farukhi,

Its not as we have been won over by right wing groups ... it is that we have been pushed to the right by the left wing groups & their Islamist allies.
It is because we are in this gorgeous free crucible of secularism that we can see the perverted form of "secularism" that exists in India ...
In the US the term "free media" means capable of reporting the truth free from any pressure ... In India the term "free media" means capable of reporting lies free from any pressure ...

Therein lies the rub ... the more Indians get educated, the more caste-barriers within Hinduism break down and the more we coalesce into a Hindu identity ... and the stronger India gets ...

India is the sacred space for the SINDHUBUJ (Sikhs + Hindus + Buddhists + Jains) ... The effort to erase our identity or dilute it takes on different forms for eg. by erasing our history, by ethnically cleansing our people in Kashmir, by convering our people in Nagaland, by making us fight against one another in Punjab

This effort to erase us has to have a backlash ... History will tell us whether the seeds were sown by Indian Patriots in Silicon Valley in the USA

I completely agree with Ms Roy. As for those who insult and critisize, thats what tehy have been doing since ages. So my dear friends, next time you insult somebody of form an opinion, find the true facts before judging.Just because you have a beard does not make you a terrorist.

Mr Dharamyug, Again please go and establish the facts and come here to blabber.I was born and raised in kashmir.I went through the hell of late 80's and early ninties.The was no genocide or so called ethnic cleansing of "your" community in kashmir.All of "your" community people migrated on the behest of assurances given by Jagmohan.All those who migrated, were compensated by the Indian govenment in form of seats in professional colleges, shops in Delhi and Jammu.You do not even have a clue what happened.More muslims have been killed in Kashmir than Hindus.Where do you get your news and RSS FOX news service? or may be its your guilt or may be another one of those convoluted thoughts coming to your fanatic mind, sitting on your soft lumbar supported chair in Silicon Valley.

Mr Singh, your statement of your position is quite lucid, but unfortunately it is exclusionary. One has to start from the premise that India belongs to all Indians. For the misdeeds of 1% to 2% of Muslims, we cannot bar 120 million Muslims from our society. It is true that forging an inclusive identity is a more difficult task than saying that we too will follow the example of Pakistan and become an "us only" state (as if Pakistan is a success story!). But all the major success stories in the world today (USA, UK, Germany, Japan, and probably soon, China) have, as far as I know, inclusive and secular societies.

Ghulam Faruki,

You, and like you almost all the Muslims throughout the world, object to external pressures to bring about changes in Islam.

And at the same time, there is not much to show by way of internal changes within Islam during past 1,000 years; Islam is same old religion not willing to make any changes in line with the demands of changing times, from what it was since time immemorial.

So if external changes are un-necessarilry intrusive and the internal ones are not working- pray tell us what is the solution that will work to modernise Islam, within forseeable future for all to see.

And while you do that, pl remember- the world continues to see the religion of Islam and Muslims by your action and not by mere re-iteration that 'Islam is a religion of peace'.

Not any more!

Ashok, you are quite right about Islam's resistance to change, but outside pressure is not the solution to that problem. I see a lot of hope in changes evolving from second generation Muslims in USA and Western Europe and from the Muslim Women's movement, and such changes then spreading to Africa and Asia. Violence and war are in the scriptures of many major religions. The problem is not in the scriptures but in the literalistic mind set of those who interpret and teach the scriptures.

Ghulam Faruki,

I appreciate yr views from a safe place in USA. But only two points before I say good night to you.

1. Even you, like many other Muslims throughout the world, tend to believe in saying that 'two wrongs do make a right'. And you couldn't resist taking a dig at other religions saying that they too have a violent religious ethos.

This is exonerating the violence in Islam, condoning the inequality of women vis-a-vis men, and hence totally unacceptable.

2. What changes r u talking abt in Europe or Asia? Only yesterday, I read that in Pakistan, a so called open society in the Islamic world, one almost 60 years old man was married to a 2 years old girl as a punishment to her father who had raped this man's daughter. In Europe Van Gogh's daylight murder is not old. And today, Pakistan says kissing of Pak actor Meera in a Mahesh Bhatt's movie is un-islamic.

Where r the changes u r talking abt?

I know kissing is not a harbinger of change but then, it is not kissing but the freedom of a woman to do what she wants to do and not be condemned and ruled by religious dictat is what I am talking abt.

Or is it that the more things change, the more they remain same?

Ashok, as you say, people do terrible things to each other in this world. The changes may be slow but they are there. Polygamy is almost non-existent in India. Old style penalties for criminal offences are obsolete in the majority of the Muslim world. More and more women are getting educated and entering the professions. But we have a long way to go. Have a very good night.

Whenever I see any report of violence being commited on an intercommunal couple, or at an intercommunal wedding, it makes my blood boil. There is absolutely no sense in it. It must be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

On another topic, one of the posts mentioned the need for a unified civil code, and I too think it should be our goal. We Muslims may have missed out on all those reforms over the past 200 years that the Hindus achieved under the inspiration of Vivekanand, Gandhi and others. Moreover reforming Muslim laws is more difficult to do for various historical and other reasons. But it is our problem and we will have to deal with it ourselves sooner or later. Such reforms cannot be foisted from outside. Hindu reforms came from within the Hindu society itself. If an outside force had tried pressure tactics, it would have only slowed the process.

Arundhati Roy is being a tad condescending and disingenuous in her choice of title (... "didn't we all?") which implies that she too, is somehow morally responsible for the assault on Geelani and similar crimes. The truth is, of course, that she plainly considers herself one of the good guys, on the right side in the battle to save humanity from the rest of us hypernationalist riff-raff.

So convinced does she seem to be of her implicit good-guy credentials that she seems to have absolved herself of the responsibility to define herself in the context of the two major wars which most Indians instinctively sense are being waged against the Indian nation they know and love--the one by the forces of Islamist fascism represented by Pakistan and its Kashmir struggle for an Islamist Reich, and the other by the aspiring maoist-polpotist nomenklatura. The regrettable harm done to individuals like Geelani (who, for all I know, might actually be innocent of participating in these wars against India), and the hyperemotionalism that so offends Roy's fastidious sensibilities, are all natural outgrowths of this sense that Indians have of their nation being under deadly siege.

One so wishes that Roy (I would add "and her ilk", but truly, she is sui generis!) would trouble themselves to seriously critique this war-perception that informs the Indian sensibility with regard to matters such as Kashmir. Individual victims such as Geelani matter, of course, but only so much--witness the wholesale indifference meted out to every single one of the Hindu Pandits brutalized and dispossessed by the by the fascist struggle of the Kashmiri people. Without taking a clear stance on the pespective of those she is addresing in her article, there can only outraged flailing and scolding; there can be no persuasive engagement with those of us she "Others" with such literary panache. It follows, unfortunately, there will be ever more Geelanis, and I imagine, ever more scintillating chunks of bytes and printer's ink out of Roy, thus elegantly rounding the whole thing off.

Is that all there is to it, then? The wars go on, to the contrapuntal beat of Arundhati Roy's self-indulgent literary gyrations? Judging by the embarassingly crude coda to her article, which viciously caricatures her "silicon valley" critics, it seems that we may have to forget the literary bit.

Bapa Rao
Los Angeles
(which, thank my Hindu gods, is NOT silicon valley but Hollywood)

Ms. Roy,

More than half a century ago, the citizens of this nation prefixed the title "Mahatma" to a frail man who was admittedly flawed, but nevertheless a supremely great soul

Which title do you prefer?. Is it "Champagne
Chomsky" or "Mahatma of the Berkeley Catwalk?".

-------

GHULAM FARUKI,,

I wish we had millions of more Muslims like you who condemn violence irrespective of the religion of those who instigate it and see the need for reform.

The present situation is created, when Liberals surrendered the national space to left fundamentalists and went into hibernation. The present discourse is now owned by people like Rolima Thapar, Arundhuti Roy.

Even A Shiite cannot take out procession in Lucknow during Muhharam! Because it will be stoned by Sunnis. So, what's the solution? Ban Shhite Procession on Muhharram. As Indian Express reported yesterday: In Madhya Pradesh, as the Time of the Namaz and "Aarti" of Lord Shiva Matched, the Aarti Time had to pre-poned!

This is secularism! Surrender to Sunni Mob-Pressure. If anybody objects, be it in Lucknow, or any other place: he/shje must be Facist, fanatic. The fact remains: This Sunni-pampering attitude itself is anti-secular, fanatic, and pose greatest problem to Indian Democracy. It proves, laws, religious rights are vurnerable to Street-Power of Sunni Fanatics!

Will it breed Tolerance? Or we are Creating more Problem? When the dust settles, we will all understand, we were taken a royal ride by these Left Fundamentalists. Politicians will milk the system, by harping on religious sentiments of people! Even CPM went over-board in West Bengal showing Godhra CD to consolidate Muslim Votes!

What happen there after? Will it Solve the problem? Will it breed more tolerance?

Ghulam Faruqi:

I truly applaud your views, and I wish your views were more the norm than the exception in the Indian muslim community, not to mention left-wing communist crowd, including the likes of Vinod Mehta and A. Roy, and A. Vajpeyi -- the torchbearers of the Indian democracy. For them equality is defined like in George Orwell's "animal farm" --- some people are more equal than others, and the Arundhati Roys and Vinod Mehtas get to decide who those "more equal" Indians are.

we didn't get freedom in 1947. we got the worse
PM, worse politicians and blah blah.. But it time to take what we truely deserve. It is time to make India a "real" secular country. "Rest" can catch the train to lahore or "Middle east" or PERISH. We MUST install the secularism the AMERICAN way. It is time to say TATA to Miss "boobker" ROY and his/her croonies (is she gay???). Time is ours and we will take our due.

Hi Arundhati Roy!

This refers to your complaint of being misunderstood by readers in your recent write-up on S.A.R.Geelani. Well, you have expressed certain doutbs(read allegations) on Delhi Police, directly or indirectly. Can we as readers know on what grounds Mr.Geelani has succeeded to win your pen's sympathies? Like every crying person doesn't mean he/she is innocent, Mr.Geelani should be percieved and evaluated by keeping that in mind. Of course, if he is guilty, the severest punishment should be his fate. And, on being innocent the government should apologise through every media. But the way you are sounding harsh towards the men in uniform looks a little immature enunciation from a great writer like you. Like not every leader of a protest can explain who and why any one accompanying or following a protest rally turned notorious,the same way Police may be at their wits' end to explain 'what went wrong' and by whom ? Isn't it?



By:
SANDEEP DATTA, Email:sandeepdatta7691@rediffmail.com

Arundhati Roy writes :

"Motives are being attributed and rumours spread by commentators, columnists, fledgling reporters and ignorant talk show hosts (and guests) busy trying to sound cool and knowledgeable, with no concern for how their idle and often malevolent boy-talk might affect real people's lives."

Living in United States, I was amused to read that sentence, because that is exactly what we see here on TV, especially on channels such as CNN, MSNBC and Fox News. Whenever a major event occurs, these TV channels trot out their so-called experts on their talk shows or news commentary sections
and make them present their uninformed speculations as if they were insightful pearls. People listen to them, and the next day at work or among friends they repeat those "pearls" as if that gives them an edge over their friends.

Lying through the teeth come as natarally to A. Roy as swimming comes to fish. She has been cought lying about Ehsan Jaffery episode...and shamelessly refused to apologise for that.

Some cheek she has !

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"I'm not in the business of making unsubstantiated allegations."

-- arundhati roy

AR the Booker ( or is it Hooker?)Prize winner for Fiction many years ago (though she has continued to write only that ever since!)tells us that due to Police compliicity and media assault poor SARG is under the bullet!.
Is this a case of pot calling the kettle black? Just imagine just few short weeks ago your magazine --both---VM & SA---indulged in exactly the same kind of Character assasination on 2 persons -Hindus from South & TamilNadu and -- horrors of horrors-- bloody Brahmins to boot.!

Of course AR was very busy as usual, amongst other things, concoting nonsense like the proforma letter at the end of her article. As founder of the newest religon of the 21st Century--ANTI-AMERICANISM-- AR (PBUH)should soon see her followers behaving with each other exactly as the S & S do in Baghdad, Lucknow ( 3 killed )
(Unlike you hyp.journos. who rarely indicate your affiliations and connections in your columns,I am however prepared to declare that this letter is a resubmission of what was initially published by you and then removed ---despite what you have mentioned at the end of the page.)

Dear sir,

The voice of Arundhati Roy makes many people restless because of the simple reason that sanity cannot be tolerated by insanity. From Pokran, Narmada, war on terror to Geelani her views are the views from from a sane mind and deep wisdom and one which loves mankind. It is the people like Roy who brought change and sanity to the world and not the brain damaged india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa's views

Nejimon,

"not the brain damaged india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa's views "

Have you ever stopped to wonder how AR received a mail even before he article was printed ... thats because that mail is a fictitious one ... she expected the article to generate anger among Indias "cyber-sentinels" in the USA ...

AR is definitely smart ... else she would not be where she is ... but smart does not automatically mean that she's correct ...

Swami Vivekanada said ...

"Do you feel that ignorance has come over the land as a dark cloud? ... Does it make you restless? Does it make you sleepless?...Has it made you almost mad? That is the first step to become a patriot. "

Folks, the news is good for the suffering people of India. This time we must thank Madam Arundhati Roy for boring us with only ‘two pages’ of her rather ‘defensive’ commie diatribe.

Let us analyze her last sentence:

Madam writes: Quote: “That’s it from me folks. Bye now. Let the insults roll. Oh look! Here is one already”. Unquote.

The content of her last sentence is, indeed, “defensive”. Or in other words, she argues in support or justification of her article’s logic, which she already knows is utter nonsense. And she is unconsciously expecting insults to roll.

Madam Roy, since you are expecting the insults to roll, then please allow me to roll one insult from Canada:
Madam, I have just used your two pages of illogical logic as today’s toilet papers. No malice intended. It is only a cost saving exercise.

Dear Friends, Since Ms. Roy seems to claim that none other than her and her communist cronies can argue in an intelligent fashion, I would like to deconstruct all the lies and fallacies and contradictions in Ms. Roy's article.

Item 1: " I'm not in the business of making unsubstantiated allegations. What I said was that since the Special Cell of the Delhi Police has shadowed Geelani and kept him under close surveillance, they ought to know who was involved. "

After claiming that she has not accused the police, Ms. Roy proceeds to do exactly that in the following sentence. She claims that since the policemen were tailing SAR Geelani, they should have known who was tailing Geelani. Now this seems extremely logical, but it starts off by assuming Geelani is innocent and then draws the same conclusion as the assumption.

Consider this:

Geelani is hand-in-glove with terrorist groups, and since Geelani was acutely aware that he was being tailed by the cops, he would have informed his peers in his terrorist groups of the same. Now, if the terrorists were going to take out geelani and had advance knowledge that he was being tailed by the police, WHY SHOULD GEELANI'S TERRORIST PEERS MAKE THEMSELVES KNOWN TO THE POLICE? Are we to assume that Ms. Arundhati Roy thinks that terrorists are too stupid to tail their own man while remaining out of sight of the delhi police?

The trick with Ms. Roy's unsubstantiated allegations are the verbal jugglery where she contradicts herself in consecutive sentences like the above.

As someone wrote earlier, Ms. Arundhati Roy is not in the *business* of unsubstantiated allegations --- it is just a hobby for a amateur journalist like her. We have all seen her in full glory lying through her teeth during those dark days in Gujarat and then refusing to apologize for her lies, but then she is hardly alone when it comes to spitting and running.

Had to respond to this funny quote from RK, Singapore:

"I think the insults against the writer are uncalled for. Its safe to say that she is no less Indian than estemeed Comrade Harkishan Singh Surjeet (CPI-M gen sec) or likes of him. "

Comrade Harkishen Singh Surjeet an Indian? Then why is it he supports disinvestment of PSUs in China but refuses to support the same in India? Why does he support China's nuclear program but not India's? Why does he prefer to view the J&K issue through pakistani lenses than through Indian lenses?

All of the above criticisms are also applicable to the "Queen of Cockamamie" (as some reader referred to her). If an Indian citizen displays a positive attitude towards Chinese development but not towards Indian development, is that person Chinese or Indian at heart?

Continuing with dissecting Ms. Roy's dishonest and prejudiced article in support of SAR Geelani:

Item 2: "There can be no doubt that the investigation into the December 13, 2001, attack on Parliament has been shabbily handled by
the Delhi Police, indeed sinisterly so. "

Note that there is no proof given as to exactly what the "shabby handling" was all about? And this is the person who claims a few sentences earlier that she is "not in the business of making unsubstantiated allegations". Now, why does she think she can lie so blatantly and insult the intelligence of the average reader? A superiority complex, perhaps?


Item 3: "We still do not know who planned the attack, or even the names and the real identities of the five militants who were killed outside the Parliament building on that day."

This is poppycock, and Ms. Roy lies blatantly because she things everyone else is too stupid to do a google search or to look at sites like the "South Asia Terrorism Portal" which tracks such issues. Here are some links that describe the identity of these attackers, which are well known, and discredit all of Ms. Roy's bare-faced lies:

Please check for the following site for all the details of the attackers of parliament and the pakistani terrorist groups that they were members of.

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries /india/states/jandk/terrorist_outfits/jaish_e_moha mmad_mujahideen_e_tanzeem.htm

"August 30: Two terrorists, including Shahnawaz Khan alias Gazi Baba, operational chief of the Jaish-e-Mohammed in Jammu and Kashmir and a key accused in the December 13, 2001 Parliament attack case, are killed in an encounter with the Border Security Force in Noorbagh locality of Srinagar."

Let us ask ourselves one question: "Is it likely that a person who is in touch with terrorists like Gazi Baba over the phone has a casual social relationship with the terrorist?" (this is what Ananya Vajpeyi and Arundhati Roy insinuate when the pooh-pooh the phone records that nailed SAR Geelani as a Lashkar operative).

Or is it more likely that SAR Geelani was a nodal point of contact for these terrorists during the parliament attack? Why would a terrorist group contact SAR geelani multiple times in the few days before the attack on parliament?

These are cynical times - India is being slowly stripped of every virtue, of every memory, cultural identity and history by the likes of A.Roy. As Varun pointed out, the attack on the Parliament itself is being trivialized by these women. The reason is simple - Hindus have been sidelined by the "Secular Democratic" state of India !!

Arundhati Roy has again written an article that portrays the Indian Military and the Indian police as evil. After reading her articles it seems like the Indian State is the worst perpetrator of crimes in the world. Would Arundhati Roy take the pains of explaining as to why Mr. Geelani was talking to militants on his cell phone before the attack on the Indian parliament? Of course this cannot prove him guilty but Arundhati, how many of us talk to militants on our cell phones? What is the probability of someone who talks to ANTI-INDIA militants on a cell-phone being innocent? Furthermore, how many of us count militants amongst our friends. It’s indeed ironic that in India the press and some famous writers like Arundhati Roy, Praful Bidwai etc. spend most of their time writing venomous articles on the Indian State. They should remember that the army in Kashmir is doing a superb job. Who is rescuing the Muslims (sorry Kashmiri’s, India is a secular state) in times of heavy snowfall. Where are the Arundati Roys and Praful Bidwais when an innocent Army man is killed in Kashmir. How and in which respect is the life of an Indian Army man less precious than that of any other Indian citizen. What about the innocent policemen who lost their lives defending the Indian parliament. I would request Arundhati Roy to please write an article on them also. Let us not forget that there is no difference between the lives of people defending India or of the life Kasmiri Pandits or of Kasmiri Muslims. The people who need punishment are people who support militants and also writers like Arundhati Roy etc. who only try to tarnish the name of the Indian State.

Folks,

The Madam writes the article. The Outlook publishes her article, and guess what?
In her article ‘mystic’ madam Roy predicts that the insults will roll.

Bong! Abra Cadabra! Hocus Pocus!

Poof! Smoke, fire, lightening, and all that stuff, which usually follow the magic spell.
And lo behold; Mr. Mehtaji appears!

With the speed of the lightening the Outlook’s Mehtaji reads the mind of that far away American East Indian boy. And mama mea, the insulting letter appears in the Outlook before the distribution of the Outlook magazine and also before that mysterious American East Indian boy had time to peruse through Ms. Roy’s article, and then e-mail the appropriate insult to our one and only commie madam.

Hey Methtaji, we are impressed with the Outlook scribes’ mystical powers to predict the future, and read other person’s mind with ESP power, and publish other person’s insulting letter even before the person in question has read Madam Roy’s article.

Oh! Wow! We are impressed.

Good try Mr. Mehtaji. Please try again!

Arundhati Roy writes:

Item 4: "I have no idea who pumped those bullets into S.A.R. Geelani. However, in deference to the general public unease with the Special Cell, the investigation ought to be conducted by an agency other than the Delhi Police."

So, Arundhati Roy admits total ignorance on who shot Geelani, but that does not stop her from claiming that the Delhi Police cannot be trusted with Geelani's case. What gives her the authority to decide who does and who does not get investigated by the Delhi police? So why should we believe the words of a woman who has been supporting this terrorist Geelani from Day one? Why should we believe a man who is friends with pakistani terrorists from the Jaish-e-mohammed over the Delhi police? Is there no end to this foolishness of Ms. Roy and her cabal?


" While it may be unfair to accuse them without evidence, they certainly cannot be considered above suspicion, and must be investigated."

So, according to Ms. Roy, we are all supposed to believe that (a) SAR Geelani must not be investigated even though the terrorists who attacked the parliament called him A FEW MINUTES before the attack on the cell phone the last time they did. and (b) The Delhi Police needs to be investigated for no reason, other than that her royal bookerness deems that they are worthy of investigation.

Sumarrily, people who hobnob with terrorists must not be touched, but people who investigate these people who hobnob with terrorists (the delhi police) must be investigated thorougly.

What kind of perversion is Ms. Arundhati Roy upto?
Nandita Haksar is a married to a Naga terrorist (NSCN(IM)) who has been hauled up before the Indian justice system for acts of terrorism committed by him. Is it any surprise that Ms. Haksar makes it her business to provide succour to terrorists who brazenly attack Indian citizens in a weak justice system.

When the justice system is weak, why do these women choose to fight for the terrorists rather than the many victims of terrorism? Whose side are they on?

Item 5: "Their bullying, ridiculous accusations against Geelani's lawyer, Nandita Haksar, the red herring they have floated about Geelani's sweater and 'missing' coat,"

Ms. Arundhati Roy lies again about the seriousness of this issue. Mr. Geelani claims to have been shot by the police, and then mysteriously all of his personal effects, which would have the forensic evidence required to understand how the shooting was done -- the point of entry of the bullet etc. --- is EVIDENCE required to determine the culprit. THE POLICE WERE REFUSED EVIDENCE by Geelani. Now, what was Geelani and terrorist-lawyer Nandita Haksar hiding? Why did they refuse to hand over crucial evidence to the police? What did they do with the evidence in the four days it was missing?

" their harassment of his family and their bizarre treatment of him as a suspect in the attempted assassination of himself—all this is doing very little to bolster their declarations of innocence."

So, Geelani and his lawyer behaving in a criminal manner does not reflect badly on SAR Geelani and his lawyer...Instead it reflects badly on the Delhi police. Clearly, A. Roy is a lying dissembler for the first order to make this phenomenal leap in "logic".

Item 6: "In the din about Geelani, it is easy and convenient to forget that thousands of people in Kashmir and the Northeastern states are being similarly treated by the police and security forces."

If Ms. Roy was any less of a liar, she would also state that there is the very real possibility that these states will break away from the Indian republic, if the terrorists and militants in these states are allowed to get away with the harrassment, coercion, and murder of civilians in Kashmir and the North East. Instead of sympathizing with the Jawan who lays down his life for the country trying to DEFEND THE PEOPLE OF KASHMIR AND THE NORTH EAST, this dissembler and liar par excellence pretends that these Jawans exist to harrass and humiliate the local populace.
Does she think that the Jawans would prefer to be in J&K trying to keep civilians safe or back home with their families? Do their lives have no value? Does Ms. Roy believe that the violence perpetrated by terrorists in the North East and Kashmir will vanish if the army and the police did not do their jobs? Does she even give a damn for the soldiers the way she seems to care deeply about people associated with anti-India terrorists? of course not, if she had such integrity, her dishonest writing would not cause such anger among the average citizen.

Item 7: " During the trial of the Parliament attack case, several major national dailies and mainstream TV channels published and broadcast a plethora of lies about Geelani and his co-accused, without ever checking their facts."

So Ms. Roy, who did not check her facts about the investigation on the parliament attack, or on the culpability of the delhi police, now thinks that she has the moral standing to accuse others in the Indian media of not "checking facts" (specifically, facts that are inconvenient to Ms. Roy and her terrorist langoti-yaar SAR Geelani).

A perfect case of the high-class hooker calling the streetwalker a woman of "cheap morals". Getting a Booker prize does not remove the burden of proof that Ms. Roy needs to present to readers when she throws out unsubstantiated allegations, even if only for amateurish, rather than business, reasons.

Item 8: "Motives are being attributed and rumours spread by commentators, columnists, fledgling reporters and ignorant talk show hosts (and guests) busy trying to sound cool and knowledgeable, with no concern for how their idle and often malevolent boy-talk might affect real people's lives"

So, suddenly a woman who has shown no concern at all for the LIVES OF THE REAL PEOPLE THAT WERE KILLED DURING THE ATTACK OF PARLIAMENT, has her heart bleeding profusely for a man who was in touch with the perpetrators of the terrorist attack.

Is Ms. Roy too stupid to note the irony of her accusing others of playing with the lives of real people, or is she cocksure that no one will notice her lies and her pro-terrorist propaganda when she bleeds all over us for SAR Geelani?

Really all it takes is start a rumour and pen few editorials the rumour becoems gospel...

(1) This geelani is hobnobbing with terrorists on cell-phone and that is mere socializing.. I never heard of any professors socializing with hardcoe LET cadres..

(2) NOW banerjee commission report on Godhara: banaerjee overlooked the presence of 2000 muslims with arms and gallons of petrols in their tow on the basis that no trace of petrol was found ( of course it won;t be found after 3 years, and yes he did overlook the forensic report at the time of this crime which mentions at least 40 litres of petrol must have been used,) and he proposes an accidental small gas tank used by tea-vendors which burst and resulted in fire... again specialists say even 10 of those gas tanks bursting won't bring that kidn of complete burnign of the bogey to fruition.. but hell it all be damned.. andsince Banerjee saheb is saing we must accpe those muslims stanidng out side with sword and petrol as peaceful people who were trying to put put the fire by pouring petrol..

grow up psec pests

Item 9:" Take, for example, the suggestion that the killer's motive was revenge—that Mohammed Afzal and Shaukat Hussain Guru (co-accused in the case) somehow masterminded the attack from their high-security cells in Tihar Jail's death row."

So, according to Ms. Roy, criminals in Indian prison cannot orchestrate attacks on those living freely. So perhaps Ms. Roy can explain how Mr. Lalu Prasad Yadav was able to run his state from within his prison walls, as do various people in the D-company who run their criminal organization from within their prison cells.

Why is Ms. Roy suddenly pretending that there are absolutely no other parties that have more than a slim motive killing SAR Geelani, when the two terrorist co-conspirators of SAR Geelani have more than enough motive to ensure that Geelani does not spill the beans.

Why this convenient and glaring oversight towards removing suspicion from the terrorist group or groups SAR Geelani might be associated with? What is the reason Ms. Arundhati Roy bleeds for terrorists, when she does not have the decency to bleed for the victims in equal measure?

Item 10:" The film director said that most Kashmiri militants who do time in prison become police informers when they're released, and are routinely targeted by militants."

This is, in fact, true. Most reformed militants work for the Indian govt. and they are routinely killed by their former colleagues. These killings used to happen with great regularity until the fence was built on the LOC.

" The MP went on to add that he knew for a fact that militants made it a point to assassinate surrendered militants—not a single surrendered militant is allowed to survive, he said knowledgeably."

So, according to Ms. Roy, no one other than her is knowledgable about Kashmir, because of course, no one else has a booker prize to show for it. Well, if Ms. Roy was any less of a megalomaniac, and chose to be informed instead of fabricating details, she would know that there are people who keep track of every single death at the hands of the kashmiri terrorsts (yes, Ms. Roy, what a waste of time, eh? instead of blleding for the terrorists, these people bleed for civilians...what perverts, eh?)

Here is a site that keeps track of every single death of every pro-India militant in J&K.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/phpBB2/v iewtopic.php?t=17
(J&K Infiltration watch)

Here is one article on how Ms. Roy's terrorist friends operate in J&K:

Teenaged rebels surrender in Kashmir
Bhaderwah, June 4 (ANI):

Two teenaged hardcore rebels surrendered before the Indian Army after being holed up during a counter- insurgency operation in Kashmir on Friday. The young boys belonged to the banned Harkat-ul-Mujahideen, a Pakistan-based terrorist outfit and had been kidnapped by rebels when they were just 14.

After a year of training, they were for the past two years deployed in the Jammu region and were late on Wednesday holed up in the Meher village, 322 km from Jammu.

Having little clue about the cause of `Jehad', they were being made party to, the boys said they were tired of the jungle life and wanted to join the mainstream. "For the last two years I have been into this. I was first taken by the HM then I ran away and stayed with a rescue wing of the Indian army but after I left the place the militants took me again. I had been thinking of surrendering for long and when I got holed up then we decided to surrender," A.B Latief (17), one of the two young terrorists said.

Under a new rehabilitation plan by the government, the two boys will be given a monthly stipend of 2000 rupees and will be enrolled into free vocational training schools being run by the Army.

Each surrendered rebel will also have a fixed deposit account of 150,000 rupees encashable after three years of civilian life with good behaviour.

END OF NEWS ITEM

Item 11: " Now neither observation is a gem of wisdom in and of itself—but bandied about in this context, it all becomes pretty wicked."

So, according to Ms. Roy, people pointing out that SAR Geelani could have been the target of his terrorist peers is "wicked"..why? because it rubbishes her claim that only the Delhi police have a motive to shoot at SAR Geelani.

Well, phooey, Ms. Roy.

Unlike Ms. Roy's lies about Indian soldiers taking it out on civilians in the NE and J&K, the reality is that Indian soldiers and policemen operate under strict guidelines, both for their safety and the safety of those they are trying to protect.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com /articleshow/msid-799405,curpg-2.cms

http:/ /jang.com.pk/thenews/sep2004-daily/19-09-2004/main /main11.htm

"Suspected militants barged into the homes of three civilians, beheaded one and fatally shot the other two, in the Indian-controlled portion of Kashmir, a top police official said on Saturday. "

This is the barbarity with which the terrorists operate --- the same terrorists Ms. Arundhati Roy and Ananya Vajpeyi are cheering from the sidelines.

Ms. Roy should note that the Indian Army runs vocational schools in J&K for those who would be steered into terrorism by her friends in the Lashkar-e-toiba. But don't let that stop your vitriol for the Indian state, Ms. Roy. We need you screeching at your loudest in order to expose you for the terrorist-supporter you are.

And to answer you question, Ms. Roy, NO, WE DID NOT ALL PULL THE TRIGGER --- one of the terrorist mates of SAR Geelani pulled the trigger and it is a pity that that the terrorist did not succeed in his task. Better luck to him next time.

After the Indian supreme court made it clear to the booker prize winning author that she was a mere citizen in front of the court she initiated a Jihad against the courts. In many of her interviews she would pass snide remarks against the supreme court and paint the judges as evil and corrupt.
I am glad the release of Jeelani has restored her faith in the Indian judicial system.

For the likes of Arundhati Roy, Kuldip Nayyar and other luminaries of the left, any SC decision that they do not agree with reduces their faith in the justice system. So basically, Arundhati's faith in the justice system on Geelani's release will exist only until the next conviction of some other terrorist that she disagrees with. Then, it is time to go to the US and spew venom and vitriol on India and Indians in front of an american audience. It is a pity that intellectual midgets and liars like Ms. Arundhati Roy represent us all in the global stage. If she was a more honest person, she would be the toast of India, but she is a pathological liar and a demagogue along the lines of Michael Moore.

Abhinash Borah tried to compare Ms Arundhuti Roy and Amartya Sen.

Ms Roy is an anarchist, whose vision of India is created outside India. Yes, Arudhuti Roy writes good English prose, but I don't see any new ideas in her speech/Articles. Any regular reader of "Socialist International" etc are very well aware of the issues she speaks. Her audience is primarily outside India. This type of Column helps her to stay in the lime-light, and who knows..even a better price for her Books.


Prof Sen a Liberal, who is ready to look into our past with Critical mind, and not just denigrade that. He would as well co-opt the modernity which suitas our values, culture. In his "Development as Freedom", he looked into "Arthasashtra" of Kautilya, and correctly concludes that there were no difference between freedom-loving ethical value system of Greece and that of Arthasashtra. The in the former, it was applicable to the free men, as opposed to Slaves and Women. In Kautilya's case, it was restricted to upper Classes of people. Moreover, there are obligatiory work suggested for the kings, which included: "duty of the King to provide the Orphans, the Aged, the infirm, the afflicted, and the hapless with maintenance".

But a Romila Thapar would invariably make "Arthasashtra" a Black-document, without looking those brighter Sides. That's why Roy and Thapars are "left-fundamentalists".

Arundati


I wish you could write something about the Kashmiri Pandits who were driven out of Kashmir valley by terrorists, in the same spirit in which you conducted the defence of Dr Gilani. Its a pity you never had the time to write about them or the dangers of Islamic fanaticism.


Why the hell would Delhi police want to keep Gilani alive, after firing bullets on him? They would have surely made him to die, had they fired the bullets. Why should they want an egg on their face? You have surprisingly kept quiet on the low quality weapon and its inability used to shoot Gilani. I am surprised your investigative brain never forced you to write about this angle.


Your innate desire of hogging on the headlines, especially on Outlook, with your ludicrous and idiotic logic pisses me off.


At the end I thank you for writing just 2 pages in the defence of Gilani. It is such a pain to read your intelligent verbose thoughts which usually span a quarter of the magazine.

Dear Rajesh(Kayrao)

May be it is the co'gress which master minded the parliament attack, so that they can allege that the BJP can not ensure the internal security of india

May be it is the madam herself who got her husband assassinated so that she can ...

Arundhati Roy is just another instance of falling journalistic standars of Outlook.

FORMAL COMPLAINT BY THE HINDU CONFERENCE OF CANADA TO THE EDITOR OF OUTLOOK MAGAZINE

Dear Sir,

On behalf of the members and supporters of the Hindu Conference of Canada, I am writing to lodge a formal complaint against your magazine’s distasteful and irresponsible coverage of the seer’s arrest. The columns written by Mr. S. Anand, which were featured in your magazines November, December and January issues, were filled with uncorroborated statements and outrageous claims. Mr. Anand’s rhetoric can verily be construed as hate propaganda aimed at inciting and fomenting hatred against Hindu minorities in Tamil Nadu for the following reasons:

* Mr. Anand is a contributor and supporter of Dalitstan.org, an internet based hate group. The group openly supports and promotes violence against Hindus (especially Brahmins) in Tamil Nadu and across India. In fact, the group’s site has been blocked under the category of violence and hate speech by Surfwatch patrol, parental control software used by many households and schools in the United States and Canada.

* A survey of Mr. Anand’s writings clearly indicates that his prime focus is on denigrating, debasing, and demeaning Hindu culture and tradition.

* Mr. Anand’s dubious and unnamed sources appear to be mainly from the Tamil Nadu police and government, both of which are famous for their corruption and unscrupulous methods. It is rather curious that Mr. Anand has gone on a limb and made outrageous claims and allegations based on his so-called sources from the Tamilnadu police. This is inspite of the Supreme Court’s judgment, which questioned the credibility of much of the evidence gathered by the Tamil Nadu police, and the recent NHRC notice to the TN government about police practices.

* The title and tone of Mr. Anand’s writings clearly indicate his zeal for inflicting the maximum damage through his article on the Kanchi mutt, the acharyas and his followers, who come mainly from the minority Brahmin community.

Your decision to publish Mr. Anand’s hateful rants clearly demonstrates a lack of editorial discretion, professionalism, and journalistic ethics. In fact, it is quite reasonable to go a step further and conclude that, by allowing Mr. Anand to use your magazine as a tool to spread his hateful propaganda, you have leant support to the ideology of intolerance and vengeance propounded by Mr. Anand and his ilk.

We hope your magazine’s senior management will give due consideration to the issues raised above and exercise meaningful editorial discretion in the future; otherwise, you leave us with no alternative but to pursue Economic and Legal sanctions against your on-line journal, which is available to the Canadian public via the internet.

(A hard copy of the letter will follow shortly.)

Sincerely,

Ron Banerjee
Director, Hindu Conference of Canada
E-mail: info@hccanada.com
Tel: 416-902-4970
Website: www.hccanada.com

I read all the comments. How do people have faith in a system which hasn't been able to provide justice to victims in Delhi/Gujarat/Kashmir/Bhopal and countless others ? How can so many people be so blind ? Guarantee of basic human rights is the principal pillar of any democracy. No system is infallible. Mistakes, serious mistakes happen but justice is eventually delivered in a true grass roots democraty. I am not sure India qualifies as a democracy in absolute terms. More and more, it seems like a democracy of the silent.

Bravo, Ms. Roy! What a clever way to preempt the critics of thy trickeries - "That's it from me folks. 'Bye now. Let the insults roll." Perhaps only Oscar Wilde's humor tipped missile can beat your clever self-victimization salvo: "The play was a great success, but the audience was a disaster." Hats off to you.

Well people have their leanings, left or right (illogical or logical) but what is "funny" here is that Ms. Roy is not good enough to "argue" with intelligent people (something she sorely lacks). I mean if a person "thinks" that "valid" criticism is "insult" then well what we all can say. I mean she must be "thinking" (can she) that she just cannot be "wrong" and since she has won "Booker" (i heard in USA people think BOOKER and
PULTIZER are trash), she has somehow "become" sole authority on "everything" (kinda like PROPHET of "TRUTH") and la behold the "madam"..thou shall not go against her as the MADAME is self-righteous. THY SHALL BOW TO HER "intellect"
and DON"T say anything against her.. Because u didn't "win" booker..

let the "odes" for MADAME roll now.

About the only treatmet I can suggest for Ms. Roy is,"sau jootia'n iske sarr parr marro aur ek ginno". I'll suggest treatment modalities for Vinod Mehta sometime later.

Jai Hind.

Ms Roy's collumn was true how much ever we want to talk at lenght of our system being un baised.. Recently ,y company was filing a criminal case against an employee in Ahmedabad who cheated our company, and when I reached the police station, the first thing the accused did when he saw me was "I know the terrorist activities you do, and I will have you put behind bars"... A cold shiver ran down my spine thinking of the possibilities,, and that too in Gujarat... The cops at the station laughed it off, but I had the scare of my life...

I could nt be myself for the rest of my stay in Gujarat....

The tag TERRORIST is the biggest insult possible for a good citizen and Mr Geelani was not only accused but also sentenced and will surely lead the rest of his life under this shadow of suspicion....

I think all this is a muddle as neither the police not geelani or the likes can be trusted. geelani is a Delhi univ teacher; it is one of the best and most sought after jobs in the country as there is litterally no work and a lot of money. People normally get these jobs by campaigning for it, if you dont believe me just look at the career records of most such people.

With no work and a handsome salary, geelani and his likes can do whatever they like, running separatist activates being the least of them.

As for the police, we all know what they are. The Indian police is a direct descendent of the imperial British police, which used the baton ruthlesslesly to protect the British raj from the "natives". The only problem is that now there are natives on both sides but the methods used are the same. It is easy to experience what an Indian policeman means, just try anyone- they are all alike, brutal, corrupt and rude - even the commission so called Dr. something. They use very abusive language; I have seen DCP level officers talking like a roadside goon and are ruthless. They have only two jobs to carry out, to fill their pockets and to carry out the orders of their pay masters (not the government but the ones who pay them even more handsomely).

Under these conditions, I am not willing to reach a judgement, I think the levels of morality in India is searching for a new low, may god not help it to reach there.

I have always had the greatest of regard for the writings of Arundhati. She is once again right in exposing the Indian police which have been exposed in the past for nefarious stuff, and recently nailing a muslim Professor, almost killing him, in fact, to complete the version of events on the Parliament attck. Geelani must now open and tell everyone whatever he may know, so that the polices urge to kill him would come down.

A look at the several posts here, shows most of them attacking Ms. Roy as a 'communist', and even defending the Sankarachayas. Of course, most of these messages are written by right wing fascists.
However, this makes me wonder how a nation of 'secularists' could take this naked attack on secularism lying down. Indians are probably just 'tolerant' people and not really 'secular' as they pretend to be.

Dear Sukhdoor,

Our view of secularism is passive. We only remains neutral and do not take the side of any religion. We are not actively secular like the french goverment which recently banned muslim head scarves, sikh turbans and big christian crosses. Says Amartya sen. If we had been actively secular, we could have easily crushed the head of hindu/muslim terrorist organisations like RSS/Lashkar. While we have a constitution which is secular in nature it cannot be above the morals of the people who govern it. The the first thing BJP goverment did was to appoint a constitution review pannel in order to slowly dismantle the constitution.

Mr. Rajesh should know that India has never been a secular cuntry. There is no claar seperation between church and State as the State countrols all Hindu temples but not churuches and Mosques. There is clearly a bias towards Muslims the vote bank of the congress. The only way India can call itsef secular is to have a uniform civil code and not allow muslims and christians
to have have their own civil code. IMHO what the BJP was trying to do was to corrct this anamoly so that all peple are equal under the law( as in the U.SA.). Unlike today when a areest warrant is executed against the Shankaracharaya but 14 pending ones against the IMAM of Delhi is not enforced. This is not secularsim but is called psuedo secularism which is what is being prcticed in India. True secularism would also mean that the subsidies given to the muslims to go the Haj needs to be scrapped. Other religions do not get this subsidy. What is being practiced in India is psuedo secularism by the likes of Ms. Roy who comes out to defend any thug as long as they are minorities (especially muslim) but will defend not the rights ofKashmiri pandits or the married Hindu hindu woman who was kidnapped and forciblly married to a Muslim Mafia don in Bihar a friend of Lallu who did not raise a finger. We are trying to pass this off as secularism in India, reminds one of what Hitler used to say. Repeat a lie a thousand times and it becomes the truth. That seems to be the guiding principle of Psecularists like Ms. Roy. In her way of thinking anything that the Congress party or the muslims / christians do is secular. But anything that BJP does is is fascist. IF Modi is a killer what about the Prophet of Islam who killed more people than Modi did is he also fascist? We have to call a spade a spade, People like Ms. Roy try to imposeon the country their narrow view of jusstice and secularism

You know I have always believed that if you are rich or famous or both then whatever you say becomes "thought of the day". Same happens with Ms Roy. We might keep on pounding against her but then that does not count as we are neither rich nor famous.

Though acumen generally prevails in the "lesser privileged" section like us people like Ms Roy take full advantage of their one sided babbling. And they take such a safe route by proclaiming any one "cynical" whoever goes against them. So if you go against them you are by default "cynical" and "communal" and "rightist". So let the ridiculous media coverage, common man indifference, politics indulgence and crap by Ms Roy continue and status quo maintained. Long live Indian democracy which bears so many black hearted monsters.

Imran Sharief:
"The tag TERRORIST is the biggest insult possible for a good citizen and Mr Geelani was not only accused but also sentenced and will surely lead the rest of his life under this shadow of suspicion...."

And rightly so, and this applies to any Indian who wants to hobnob with terrorists and terrorist groups from pakistan. You hobnob with terrorists, you pay the price, and all the whining and bitching from wannabe-jihadis is not going to help them.

If a terrorist like Gazi Baba calls you on the phone, like he called SAR Geelani, then the people on both ends of the line are suspect in colluding to conduct acts of terrorism.

Indian muslim jihadis (not the secular muslims like Sir Azim Premji or Sir Abdul Kalam) must understand that just mouthing inanities about "let's follow the law" and then turning around and assisting terrorists, is not acceptable.

Rajesh continues to shove his booted foot down his gullet:
"Our view of secularism is passive. We only remains neutral and do not take the side of any religion."

That is what secularism means. Did you bother to check the dictionary before you wrote this?


" We are not actively secular like the french goverment which recently banned muslim head scarves, sikh turbans and big christian crosses."

Muslims always pretend they are above the law. In a secular society, the muslim jihadi types ...mostly sunni wahabbis who have spread around the planet like a virus... want to remain exclusive to themselves and want the REST OF SOCIETY to bend to their whims, while they go around destroying the fundamentals of the society that hosts them. The French, unlike the fools who govern India, are taking preemptive steps to ensure that these jihadis do take too much liberty to spread their jihadi poison while accepting the dole from the french govt. (compare that to Saba Naqvbi Bhaumik, who want the Indian govt. to fund madrassas even if they preach hate and garner support for jihadi terrorism).


"Says Amartya sen. If we had been actively secular, we could have easily crushed the head of hindu/muslim terrorist organisations like RSS/Lashkar."

har har. This is what is known as "guilt by association", folks, except Rajesh here is too much of an imbecile to do it very subtly unlike masters of that craft like Ms. Arundhati Roy.

" While we have a constitution which is secular in nature it cannot be above the morals of the people who govern it."

I see. So please do expound a little more on "morals of the people". Just because you up with bullcrap like the above, which has no meaning but sounds very "secular"...it does not mean you have a point to make.

" The the first thing BJP goverment did was to appoint a constitution review pannel in order to slowly dismantle the constitution."


Har Har. Another lie about a verifiable fact. Are you too stupid to comprehend the ground rules.
Here are a few links on what was being tried by the previous govt.:

http://www.saag.org/notes/note95.htm l
http://law.indiainfo.com/constitution/society .html

On the other hand, this link of a pakistani terrorist group's Hizbul Mujahideen site (which has contributions from S. Anand, the crowd favourite in Outlook), and it says exactly what Rajesh here is saying.

http://www.dalitstan.org/journal/br ahman/bra000/brconind.html

Note the crossed swords that is an emblem of the jihadi terrorists and also read the sections on how India can be broken apart by muslim jihadis by professing a bond with "dalits". The terrorists, much like A. Roy, would like to split society apart at the seams.

My god. Such commotion! If Our Lady of Laboured Lamentation has so managed to work up everybody's bile, guess who's laughing all the way to the bank? Mr Vinod Mehta, of course, with the Lady herself on his arm.

The Reddy Reckoner: NEVER take Arundhati Roy seriously. She's conning you.

Many years ago a budding Indian actress kissed a visiting British prince in full public view. Crazy women streak (naked, of course) on to the pitch in cricket grounds of Britain and Australia. There was a nary a stone that Madonna hasn't turned -- including modeling for porn pictures -- to stay in the limelight.

Arundhati Roy pulls "intellectual" stunts, because she is in the oped industry, not in music or films. Be warned all you who believe that Our Lady of Designer Denunciations has an ideological axe to grind: she has no ideology whatsoever. Nor commitment to any principle. She's in business, plain and simple, in the business of selling herself.

Staying in her kind of business requires continuous product 'improvement' and uninterrupted brand-positioning and repositioning. Drug addicts demand more potent drugs. Porn addicts want kinkier porn. Roy's fans want her to get ever more bizarre. That's the dynamics of the market: the leader will have to keep devising ways of keeping ahead of the competition. If any Tom, Prick and Harry can claim to be human rights activist, then what's so special about Our Lady of Fabricated Fulmination? So it is inevitable that sooner than later she will have to start defending the human rights of serial killers and paedophiles. If they happen to be Muslim, that much more better.

All you who get outraged by her antics: sorry to have to tell the truth to your face: a sucker is born every minute.

Just sticking to the topic of the behaviour of the Delhi police, it was understandable in the circumstances.There is an horrific terrorist movement going on in Kashmir, the Kashmir provincial assembly was bombed in October 2001, and the whole environment was rife with anxiety abour pan-Islamic terror following the World Trade Centre attack. Then Mr.Geelani is caught talking oin his cellphone with one of the suspects! How would the law enforcement agencies and the state in the US, UK and France deal with an identical situation?

She looks kinda haggard, don't you think? The prose does too. I thought this line was rich:

"I'm not in the business of making unsubstantiated allegations."

And then madam moves on to doing precisely that.

BTW, I have no idea whether Geelani is guilty or whether the Delhi Police knows who shot him. But I also have no idea who killed Dubey, the ex-ministers in TN, Hiran Pandey, Phoolan Devi, who kidnapped that kid in Bihar, whether Lallu Yadav told the kidnappers to release him to keep his political fortunes intact, whether that Muslim League minister raped and then paid off that girl in Calicut, and whether he is involved with the LET and Dawood as some police people allege.

Hell, there's a thousand other cases where people get killed or injured, and the system screws people. So what's so special about Geelani? That he's in Delhi, and all these screaming folks also live in Delhi and are worried about the police coming after them next? That his case is high-profile? That the BJP govt arrested him, and there's nothing around to beat the BJP with right now?

Dear P.Secs,
After all of your "Secular" ranting, kindly read the message that Mr.Shukoor from Bangalore wrote in this forum:
"However, this makes me wonder how a nation of 'secularists' could take this naked attack on secularism lying down. Indians are probably just 'tolerant' people and not really 'secular' as they pretend to be. "
Note the "Indians" and "as they pretend to be" - This is how the super-pampered minority regards the rest of India - as "they" seperate from "us" and secularism is just a facade.
Makes me wonder if these people can ever live in any civilized society.

Mr.Shukoor PS,
I am neither a "right wing fascist" nor do I belong to any organization. However, I will vote in the next election.
It is obvious that in your view, an attack on a foolish person that hobnobs with terrorists is an "attack on secularism". One wonders what you propose to do other than "take this naked attack...lying down" - an indication of your violent mindset perhaps - 7th century if I may add.
Kindly pack your bags and leave for Pakistan. You people are not fit for civilized society - you are like a virus whose singular aim in life is destroying it's host.

It is intersting that outlook censored one of my comments. The comment was that in Ms. Roy;s opinion Modi was a fascist as he was responsible for killing muslims in gujarat . By the same token The so called prophet was also one as it is documented in the Koran and Hadiths he also killed a lot of innocent people
so does that make him a fascist. Outlook should stop censoring the truth

http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=41610 5
*********************************************
Hindu marries Muslim, angry mob kills brother

Press Trust Of India
Posted online: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 at 1220 hours IST
Updated: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 at 1249 hours IST

Vadodara, January 18: A mob killed a youth in Gajipura locality in neighbouring Kheda district, police said.

The youth identified as Pappu Rana was killed by the mob because his brother Vijay Rana had married a Muslim girl, Minaz, police said.
The minority community members had protested Vijay getting married to Minaz.
Police authorities had set up a police point with three policemen in the area to provide protection to the Rana family.
Despite police protection the group belonging to minority community managed to attack Pappu Rana with sharp weapons and killed him.
Meanwhile, all the three policemen posted at the locality have been suspended for dereliction of duty.
In view of this tense situation in the area, additional company of SRP from the state headquarters has been stationed.

****************************************** **

This story has appeared in Indian Express.

Please note that we will not hear the voices of Ananya, Arundhiti, Teesta Setalvad, Javed Anand, Padre Cedric D'Souza et al. when such things happen ... Also note that there are no sound bytes from the "Human Rights" organizations or any progressive universities ...

But imagine the feeding frenzy in the Indian media/progressive circles/human rights NGO's if a Hindu mob had killed Muslim lad because his brother had married a Hindu girl.

Please also take time & read the comments posted on the article. The most interesting comment was posted by a lady called Asma from Bahrain. I have cut-paste it below -

"Why bring the politicians in between? The only people to blame in this sad incident is the couple. They should have been mature enough to think about the consequences. It is high time we Indians start thinking with a secular view than with a communal view. India has been an example of secularism & we are seen with envy here as all Indians live like Indians & not like Hindus or Muslims."

So, this lady blames the couple for the Muslim mob killing the Hindu brother ...

***IF*** Geelani is a "Homo Sacer" ... then what is Pappu Yadav ? What are "Vijay & Minaz" ? Was "Secularism" murdered when the Muslim mob killed the Hindu lad ? Tomorrow, if Vijay & Minaz Rana are murdered by another mob, does it mean that it "Love" was murdered by a mob ? Have Ananya, Arundhiti, Vinod Mehta & all of us killed
Pappu Rana ?
Lets get to the larger issue ... What are we ... the teeming masses who have no recourse the law ... or access to people like Ananya / Arundhati/ Teesta et al. to take up cudgels on our behalf ? Where & how do we fit into the Indian state ? What is our status ?

WHO ARE WE ?!

Dear Sir:

She admits that she is a member of "All India Defence Committee for S.A.R. Geelani" - her arguments are as biased as the people she accuses of the "so-called" fabrication.

Arundati Roy seems to come out of the woodwork when ever there is a muslim in trouble with the law.
where was she when

1) The shankaracharays's were arrested

2) When a Muslim mafia don in Bihar kidnapped a hindu woman and forcibly married her

3) where was she when there are muslim cabiner miinisters in the Indian government who are facing muder charges

4) where was she when the kashmiri pandits were being ethenically cleansed in Kashnir. Today more of them are refugees outside their home than the refugees of the gujarat Riots

5) where was she when there was a Muslim woman in nigeria who was sentenced to being stoned for having a child out of wedlock?

6) where was she when the Muslim Government in Sudan ethinically began killing other so called african muslims in darfur?

7) Where is she when the horific bombing in Bali took place killing
many innocent people who had nothig to do with the war in Iraq?

8) where was she when the Madrid bombing took place
engineeered by her friends the Al-Queda?

I could go on with the sheer hypocricy on her part. All this is goes on show where her heart lies , with the Islamic fundementalists. Never in her writings one can see her criticize people using isalm to carry out terrorist acts all over the world. Is she so blind that all teroriism is caused by U.S.A , Hindus / RSS/BJP/Wesstern Nations. What about the killings by Sunni in iraq targetting Kurds and Shia's

IMHO she is a raving lunatic person who looks for publicity in the west with the $'s. As shabana Azmi once said of the Iman of Delhi " She will pay to Airdrop him on the taliban ruled Afghanistan". Perhaps the readers can pass on the hat to raise this modest amount and Airdrop her in Saudi AraBIA where hopefully!! she can continue her tirade against all things anti-Islamic in her BURQA of Course. It may be a loss for fans who cant see her but at least if the Mullahs permit we can read about it or else we can see in a Burqua raving mad on Al-jazzera!! via the signaature videotapes tha l-Queda uses

Rajesh,

By pointing others as pygmies, you do not become a giant. If you were asked about your opinion, you'd be so bewildered about what exactly that meant as you believe that Ms. Roy has already said on behalf of people like you all that was to be said.

I dont think that you have any opinion at all and would vaguely allude about 5000 years of bride burning. It seems that you do not even share some of the genuine concerns of your protagonist except that you find her line of arguments convinient to use against others. Well you do have your use though, as the noise contributing joker of the pack.

Your identity stands revealed even under your name!!

I have always had the greatest of regard for the writings of Arundhati. She is once again right in exposing the Indian police which have been exposed in the past for nefarious stuff, and recently nailing a muslim Professor, almost killing him, in fact, to complete the version of events on the Parliament attck. Geelani must now open and tell everyone whatever he may know, so that the polices urge to kill him would come down.

A look at the several posts here, shows most of them attacking Ms. Roy as a 'communist', and even defending the Sankarachayas. Of course, most of these messages are written by right wing fascists.
However, this makes me wonder how a nation of 'secularists' could take this naked attack on secularism lying down. Indians are probably just 'tolerant' people and not really 'secular' as they pretend to be.

Just saying that a particular article or viewpoint is RSS, saffron, chaddi etc, is no argument by itself. Isn't it more important to explain why these messages are bad? Neither Arundhati Roy nor Miss Vajpeyi have convincingly shown anything, thus far. But they have positively displayed more outrage at the treatment meted out to Geelani( who after all may still be guilty) than to the actual attack on the parliament, which they seem to have trivialised/marginalised. It was the worst single political outrage directed against India in a very long time!

its always a pleasure to hv Ms. A. Roy's article.. more than the article the Ranting is very informative and fact presenting. That way she is helping us to bring out the be(a)st in us. best for presenting the facts n figures and beast for the way she make us react. and i cudnt control my laughter seeing her email id. india.patriot..... hahahahaha

Arundhati Roy has performed a very useful service by trying to bring some sanity and fairness to this issue. We should vigilantly guard against the excesses of a police force with an agenda of its own if we care for our democracy.

Don't know why the intellectuals like Ms Roy missed event in Bihar where a judge was forced to ask for transfer as he ordered arrest of the Maulvi and banning of the loud speakers used for azans. If police can arrest Shankarcharya they can arrest SAR Geelani too at any moment. Remember that his wife was inculpated by the apex court. He is a bloody terrorist trying to get sympathy from hoi polloi by proclaiming he is a Muslim talking of Kashmiri rights. Why don't he talks about Kashmiri Pandits right too ? It's like Mohd Azzaharuddin saying that he was stigmatized of match fixing as he was a Muslim. These type of people get all the support from grotesque writers like Ms Roy. They get filled by delight by attacking the Government machinery and especially police whenever they get a chance.

On one hand, Arundhati Roy sets the bar for evidence so high that she wants us to believe that we do not know who planned the Parliament attack! On the other, she feels under no obligation to apply that bar to herself, and freely casts aspersions on Delhi police, without offering ANY evidence of their involvement in the Geelani affair. Are Booker-winners privileged to wear hypocrisy on their sleeves? Roy's argument is as phoney as her ownership of the Pachmarhi reserved forest villa that the courts restored to their orginal owners: the people of India.

Dear Sir

I think as Ms arundhati roy accuses hidutva fundamentalist, in the same comment she unknowingly portrays herself as an left fundamentalist. I feel bad about people like Ms A roy. why does she use (who pulled the trigger ... We all), personally I dont feel to be communal as she portrays in her article. And I would like her to appologise unconditionally. I am a law abiding citizen and I would also like to see an India which is free from all kind of prejudices, but what Ms AR says is certainly another extreme. What does she want? to demoralise people and claim that she is the most moral. I would like her to have faith in indian ppl and not consider herself superior. I loved her articles, before I got myself confounded by her beliefs and talks because she always portrayed indians in bad light. I would like to congratulate her on her success in writing books but definetly on political commentary she is on another extreme. I should admit that I am very much aware of my identity and I dont want any part of the country to scede, because that questions my faith in a nation. And I am nationalistic, when time comes for an idea to erase international boundry I might change but today definetly national boundary has a meaning for me. But at the same time I dont want a pat on my back and constructive criticism of the system is very much expected but I would like not to belittle the very system that sustains me. Everything about india is not bad Ms AR. This is a Great country but yes there are follies we have to get over it, but not to belittle it. Our efforts should be constructive .

Dear Shreya,

You want to know my opinion. Here it is. The attack on the parliament was masterminded by BJP. The entire episode smells of BJPs complicity. That terrorists of hard core trained militant group would enter the heavily guarded parliament in order to kill a few security guards and get killed is simply unimaginable by any stretch of imagination. Not even a child with downs syndrome would take such a risk without any result. You need to do some homework on the attack strategies of terrorists. They can put the best commandos to shame. Read the assassination of Deutche Bank’s President.

BJP had both the Intention and the ability to stage manage such an attack

Intention: Portraying that a nation is under attack, I am here to save you, so rally around me, ( “ Come with me if you want to live’ in Arnies words) is a very common political game. Monarchs and governments have used it commonly across the word. The Saudi monarchy commonly used this ploy in order to rule. George Bush used it openly to get reelected ( read his Patriot act. Also see Fahrenheit 9/11). This move is documented in every political science document, even the thousands of years old Chinese war book “ The Art of War’ has it. Machiavelli wrote about it. The BJP no longer had the Babri Mazid to mobilize people. What is a better mobilizer than Pakistan? What can make people rally behind BJP more than an attack by Pakistan.

Ability: A party that has the ability to go with computer generated list of Muslims and annihilate 5000 of them within a matter of three days can definitely hire thugs to attack the parliament. You can get a hired killer in Bombay slums in a few hundred rupees who can go, break the glass of a car with a sledge hammer and shoot the occupant. Such contracts don’t need expert hit men to execute. Plenty of People willing to kill for money are available who don’t bother about the consequences.

Geelani: Police is the most corrupt organization in the country. When Gujrat police framed, arrested and Jailed 100 muslims for a train that was never burned, When they arrested 1000s of farmers under TADA when there was no terrorism in Gujrat, what’s the big deal for them in framing Geelani. These ravers and ranters will realize the true color of Indian Police when the police frames their husband/ wife/son

Regarding your post, I find nothing worthy of comment. Just that you need to grow out of the jealousy one woman feels for another. As far as the title of Arundhatis article that’s bothering you.. Of course we pulled the trigger. Tv channels, commentators, columnists, reporters, talk show guests/hosts, film makers, politicians, writers, Government ( previous) all joined hands to pull the trigger. Don’t think that you are not a part of this system. If you are not then you must be the part of another vicious system, the system of channeling money from NRIs Hindus to fund terrorist organizations like RSS in the name of building temples. Ah yes regarding the revelation of my identity from my name. I haven’t seen an ill-informed person like you. “Shahs” are Gujrati Baniyas.. not Muslims

I think the insults against the writer are uncalled for. Its safe to say that she is no less Indian than estemeed Comrade Harkishan Singh Surjeet (CPI-M gen sec) or likes of him.

Leaving that aside, I have just a few points to clarify about the article from the writer/editor, if they happen to glance through, which are as follows:

a) The author has claimed the investigation was shabbily handled. Is there any information which she possesses that we have overlooked in this particular case?
b) The second question being as to what are the cerdentials of All India Defence Committee for S.A.R. Geelani and why would readers like me care for an organisation (or whatever it is) in the mentioned scenario ?

c) As for the names and identities of the terrorists (i am taking the liberty of calling the armed personnel who were killed while attacking parliament as terrorists but the author might want to call them freedom fighters), why dont the author for the first time take the pains of proving that those were not Mohammed , Hamza, Haider, Raja and Rana ?

Last but not the least, the author seems to have finally got the meaning of insult and contempt as she vivdly presents the readers with a letter to editor. I am glad SC again did a great job in driving the point home with the author

Doei doei

Disagreeing with Arundhati Roy is democracy in action. Trying to silence her or to malign her would be antithetical to democracy.

Ha!! Finally the Rajesh comes with Guns blazing !!
I wanted to writer a longer rebuttal but here is the summary.

About the BJP

They will kill democracy itself to get into power.

They army is a concept invented by the BJP in the name of self defence to create an enemy - Pakistan.
The army was created to bring BJP in power. Whenever BJP wants to come to power they ask army to create some border problems.

They BJP kills hindus so that they come in power and they will keep doing that to keep hindus scared of pakistan.

The BJP will keep the hindus poor so that they will not understand anything and keep BJP in power.
BJP is elected mostly by illiterate and poor states

And what will they do once they come in power.
They will declare India a hindu state, establish democracy, create army, bring education and prosperity to the hindus.


Nice logic. He needs to understand the difference between BJP, Congress, Communist and other major parties which do not fall into the above category ?
Also when he compares India with the other countries, he needs to understand the history and origin of monothesim, dictatorship and democracy?


I think the guy is delusional. He needs a dose of reality or maybe the magazine is a platform for those kind of writers and we have to keep providing rebuttal to this kind of people till we get a geniuine magazine reflecting the values and ethos of the country

Arundhati Roy is not in the business of making unsubstantiated allegations? Wow! this is news to me.

Arundhuti'didi: Your client, Geelani, don't condemn Islamic Terrorism in Kashmir. Rather he supports it. He traces the root of Islamic terrorism in Kashmir Valley to brutalities of Security forces, however we all know: forces were deployed after Jan 1990 where 500,000 pandits were Raped, Killed, Maimed, driven out from their ancestral home. He also believes in self-determination of Kashmiris.

Now, all these positions were taken by him in an open interview with another news-paper. God knows, he attended, aroused, mis-guided how many innocent people. Now, tell us from deep of your heart: Does these positions make you a suspect?

I am very heartened to see your tactical approval for a CBI Probe ("by other agencies"). You are playing the same Game as VHP.

Secularism, Democracy, Freedom, liberty --all these concepts are Great. But equally important is: IT MUST BE APPLICABLE TO ALL INDIANS.
Are you doing that? Tell us, how many times you wrote about th Plight of Kashmiri Pandits. The plight of Bangladeshi Buddhists/Hindus.

That's why people like you are loosing the "moral" high-ground like never before. Remember, Gandhi's remark on who the person who Killed Swami Shraddhanand, in his Sick bed? However, Mohmad Ali clarified later: "Even a fallen Muslim like who killed Shraddhanad, is better than Gandhi, who is a Idol Worshipper".

I bet, your client thinks similarly about you, Didi.

Folks, the news is good for the suffering people of India. This time we must thank Madam Arundhati Roy for boring us with only ‘two pages’ of her rather ‘defensive’ commie diatribe.

Let us analyze her last sentence:

Madam writes: Quote: “That’s it from me folks. Bye now. Let the insults roll. Oh look! Here is one already”. Unquote.

The content of her last sentence is, indeed, “defensive”. Or in other words, she argues in support or justification of her article’s logic, which she already knows is utter nonsense. And she is unconsciously expecting insults to roll.

Madam Roy, since you are expecting the insults to roll, then please allow me to roll one insult from Canada:
Madam, I have just used your two pages of illogical logic as today’s toilet papers. No malice intended. It is only a cost saving exercise.

Didi's complain about "Indian Patriot" from the West is very interesting.

Please include MK Gandhi, father of the Nation, in that List (Page 129, "Aryans and British India", by Thomas Trautmann). Gandhi came to appreciate the Bhagvat Gita, Vegetarian Congenial, and Indian Civilization in England. Same was the case for Aurobindo and many others.

"Orientalism" in Britain had two branches: Indo-mania (Jones etc who looked into India and insisted "Cultural relativism", meaning reading Indian Civilization through its own set of rules, hierarchies..), and Indo-Phobia (Macaulay etc..who wanted to impose Western set of tools to read Indian Civilization). Though Indo-phobia became most dominant force after death of Jones due to many reasons: like Christian Missionary Agenda etc, Indo-Mania didn't collapse totally. They still existed, though much recessive. Our founding father derived his Indian Civilization in England.

Dear Didi: Your construction of India is constructed outside India. Do you believe in "Cultural relativism", meaning one culture is to be analyzed through its own set of tools? You believe in that, when it comes to Islamic Ones, but NOT the Hindu Ones. Geelani will NEVER allow you to Question “the Glorious rule of Khalifas”! Will he? You are a colonized woman. Europe in NOT a geographical entity to you. Its in your Mind, Body, psychology..everywhere.

(So, "Indian Patriot" is also colonized by Indo-mania? You almost proved that, until Prof. Tapan Roychowdhury etc came. Bhudeb Mukhopadhyay, India's first nationalist, or Bankimchandra Chattopadhyay DID NOT learn Vedas/Upanidhadas/Gita from Jones. They learnt it from Pathashalas of Nabadwaip.)

For those moronic Pseudo-Seculars, who limit their knowledge to Ms Thapar (a Colonised lady herself through the methods she apply): Thomas Trautmann is a Professor of University of Michigan. This book is published by University of California Press. For heaven's sake: read this Book to understand the full-extent of damage done by British Rule.

Didi'bhai Arundhuti,

"England has to fulfil a double mission in India(Asia): One destructive, the other regenerating -- the annihilation of the ASIATIC SOCIETY and the laying of the material foundations of WESTERN SOCIETY in ASIA" --Karl Marx, Pg 306-7, "Surveys from the Exile", As quoted in "Orientalism", Edward Said, Pg 154.

You are colonised to the core, carrying the weight of Marx's utopia. How much Marx knew about India, China, Near-East when he wrote "scientific socialism"? Just couple of reports produced by Colonial East India Company.

You are a Neo-Communist, who gloss over horrible crimes perpetrated by regimes in Soviet/China and many other places. If you can build a Utopia of neo-left without those horrible crimes, what is going to stop Nehru, Tagore, Gandhi to build a Eutopia of great past of Indian Civilization? Was Nehru proud of Indian Civilization? I bet. Would Arjun Singh de-toxify those Comments, Lectures, Poems, Stories, dance-Dramas of Tagore, Nehru and many others? Lets also detoxify throughly: Jagadish Bose, S. Ramanujam (mathematician) ..Lets kill them. Every art: from Jamini Roy, to Abanindra-nath..

What was the deal of Indian Nationalism? Indian nationalism was build on two-tier approach. We would embrace material world of Europe(science, technology, rational formes of economic organization, modern methods of statecraft etc) , because that's what gave birth to huge European Power who colonized us. Why we needed Power? Because without it, We wouldn't be able to protect our real INNER CORE: age-old culture, values of India. We were over-run by many, even before Britishers arrived. That's what partha Chatterjee writes in "The nation and its fragments".

Alas..people like you hate anything Indian.

The concern of "Indian-Patriot" is on Secular ground. When he says, you are anti-Indian, he is referring to State-craft. Godse killed Gandhi --but what you never tell the world is: it was related with statecraft, and NOT BECAUSE GANDHI WAS LESS HINDU. Gandhi was always more Hindu, than Savarkar, or Advani. Any day. That's why people like you have to engage a discourse of lies, more lies, and more-more lies. With "moral relativism".

By ending her article the way she did, Ms. Roy didn't manage to obfuscate the fact that she still remains an idiot.

Saikat,

These people don't have any proof that Delhi Police(DP) attacked Geelani. Didi is saying: as DP "shadowed" Geelani, they must know who attacked him. However, Didi never answers: Why Geelani didn't go to the Court when he was being "shadowed"?

Nandita Haskar is not a small kid. She knows the law better than most of the lawyers of India. She knows very well, unless she has some reasonable ground to prove, Geelani was attacked by DP, court will NOT listen to her. That's the message of Supreme Court verdict in Kanchi Seer case.

These people know all these stuff. Then why are they raising these issue? Because, Police has raised some solid questions on conduct of Nandita Haskar, her Husband, some family member of Geelani.

For public like us: We came to know who is Nandita haskar. What's her Husband does. What's the take of Geelani on Kashmir Jihad. And more exposure on "moral relativism" of these pseduo-seculars. Begum Teesta Javed Khan, Nandita Haskar, her Husband...and their supporters. Some impressive list! Lets also wait on what Supreme Court say on Begum's filing of case in Supreme Court.

Will the Booker ( or is it Hooker ?) prize winner write a similar piece on Shankarachaya?
After all, all what she says about the media's assault,the false accusations are all equally true about the Acharyas.
Or is it because the Acharyas are -Hindus,South Indians and --the most dreaded disease of all--BRAHMINS ? And the accusers' -including OUTLOOK-belonged to HER side?
Yes your proforma letter was most informative especially as the founder of the world's newest religon-ANTI-AMERICANSIM.I look forward to seeing her followers literally killing each other like it happens all over the world in Baghdad,Lucknow etc!
And let us not forget she won the Booker Prize for Fiction 15 years ago --which is what she has continue to write ever since!

" I'm not in the business of making unsubstantiated allegations"
And this is precisely what this person goes on to do in the article! The author has turned out to be an expert on everything under the sun, from nuclear conflict to environmental issues and now on human rights.

Just as a note, the ending was pathetic. If the author wanted to fend off criticism by terming it as insults it was a desparate and futile attempt to silence those differ with the author's viewpoint. Perhaps she should go back to writing some fiction and get back the touch in the prose. Even that is missing these days. Is the industry of writing not as profitable as the human rights industry?

Are you sure miss Roy that u are not in business of unfounded allegations:-) I mean how come your memory could be this short, do you want me to post your fictinal journalism during GUjarat riots where you penned a graphic picture ofhow a person was murdered while all this time the said person was having fun in US of A ( yeah the country which is ur object of hatred).

Jeez give it a rest go back to fiction writing again..

Lets be more constructive here. I think we have lost enough of our country's energy just in the act of judging whos good and whos bad.

IMHO, I feel that journalists and the media have a great responsibility as far as putting the facts to the public. They are supposed to put the plain facts of an incident/a condition nothing more. Lets leave it to the readers who have enough brains to judge whos right and whos wrong.
Secondly, putting the story/news straight and crisp avoids any misconceptions/misjudgements or confusions amongst the readers. Thirdly, there are lives of people which are at stake here, lets not make a persons life miserable with words which reach such masses.

With respect to the story here, we ought to have more transparency with respect to someone being convicted. The solution here again is putting the facts rather than anyones opinion.

Dear Arundhati,
By ending the article the way you did, you actually honoured those who dont deserve any. Do not be disheartened for we are with you. We dont write the same thing again and again by changing names. Neither are we paid per email by RSS as the others are. Posts on this article only reflect upon the culture of the writers..great 5000 year old culture. I absolutely loved your piece on "Murderous God" . Please keep writing, we wait for your articles, It would be nice if you could elaborate on the RSS dirty plan which you outlined in your article during gujrat riots.

Monica. Pros are more cultured than you are

Arundhati,

I highly respect your freedom as activist or is that activist writer to write WHATEVER catches your fancy next. In fact ma'am, as implied in the word "we" you seem to have attained great strature by claiming your share in the responsibility of pulling the trigger in a christ like jesture of 'supreme sacrifice' for the sins of others or whatever it is that you meant.

However ma'am, I would personally like to clear my name as i believe it implicates all Indians. I never had anything to do with it at all. Goodness gracious! I just hope that reading the "chaddiwaala" responses does not make me an accompliace. I know I am being petty but I do not share your aspirations to such saintly greatness and I would rather leave it to you as you have mastered the art to perfection and all your awards are testimonials of this.

Of course you need not remind us how you are not in "business of making unsubstantiated allegations" and declarations. Honest ma'am, we believe that you have columns of research behind each claim of yours, reflected amply in every pearl of wisdom that you effortlessly and routinely drop, for example how ONLY "little boys clamour for new video games" - War is Peace.

By the way am really curious to know what you meant by the following in another peice - "People who live in societies ravaged by religious or communal bigotry know that every religious text-from the Bible to the Bhagwad Gita-can be mined and misinterpreted to justify anything, from nuclear war to genocide to corporate globalisation." It would be great if you could clarify which other books share company with The Gita and Bible in being misrepresented. On second thought, pray, let what your ommission signifies be a secret. I must congratulate you ma'am for being the proverbial cat.. that always lands on its feet and has nine lives. Afterall what good a dead soldier would be to her cause.

I really cannot make up my mind.. On third thought perhaps I am guilty of misinterpreting you. You might have deliberately left things unsaid making the context of why you left them unsaid, a conspicous statement in its absence!! Well said ma'am about what you did not say.

Now I remember... I think I will have to afterall eat back all my words.. It seems you know what I did this winter sale. I had bought a dull orange skirt which can be taken for safforonish colour.. Perhaps then I too am part of this "we"...

In a response to Arundhati Roy all the cheap writers have suddenly become creative. Just see the difference in these posts vs others
Shreya: you have a long long way to go. All the best to you and other budding writers. At persent your creative writing skills are pathetic but if you keep practicing on Outlook they may improve.

This is a great thought provoking article for the learned class of Outlook. (I am thoroughly ignoring the "paid" writers of the RSS and Upper Caste Hindus who try to hog this free space under some pretext and put in their proxy posts using several masked names).

Writers such as Ms Roy are the backbone of our Indian society. They really help us keep together, away from the sinister plans of the zealots who would like to see India being ruled by the VHP, The Sangh, The Dal or the entire Parivaar.

Pseudo-Secular or whatever term they may want to brand the Arundhatis of India, they are unable to digest the fact that they have failed midway in their mission to saffronize India's future. The moment someone talks sense, they start branding him/her as a Communist or Jehadi or Anti-everything!

Arundhati is absolutely correct when she says 'We all pulled the trigger". For a peaceful and a livable India, we need to ensure that these atrocities against the under-previliged sections (who are a majority) of our populace are checked with vigour and vehemence.

Lets have more of your great thoughts, Maam. Worry not about the venom. As one poet in sanskrit has put it... "Worry not about the winds that run against you, oh Garuda - These are there to help you fly you further up!!!

I am not aware of the truth of the Geelani story.But it is very surprising that a so called intellectual of the stature of Ms Roy seem more than interested in making a dig at the majority community for every other thing.

Comments on the director of a jingoistic Bollywood film doesn't augur well on her. Whoever this person is, he is entitled to have his opinion the way she has her .I don't know what category her literature falls into..I have no plan of categorising it..

I hope Ms Roy and her like focus on the problems of ordinary Indians..The world doesn't end with the so called intellectuals of Delhi. I am sure there are countless indians framed by the police , media and the intellectuals everyday... Who gives a dammn to one Geelani..

I find the response from india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa to Ms Roy's article in poor taste. Not only does the person show a complete lack of ability to critically understand the meaning of terms like democracy, development and the like, but the language with which he/she goes about discrediting Ms Roy is shameful.

Arundhuti Roy presents a point of view which is different from many of the "popular doctrines" that we get to hear from the spin doctors (or to use Paul Krugman's term, "the policy entrepreneurs") in the media. Her writings are often a warning to the pitfalls of uncritically accepting popular theories about the world. At a time when there is this tremendous tendency the world over to produce a uniform (and hence hegemonic) knowledge stucture, authors like Ms Roy are precious commodity.

I am in no way trying to advocate a cult like acceptance to her writings, for something in those lines would defeat the very ideas that she is trying to put forth. Disagrements need to be at the very heart of out critical thinking on every issue, and they will only strengthen our understanding of them. For instance, I find Amartya Sen's views on development more compelling than Arundhuti Roy's; however every time she writes a piece on development, she compels me to add further rigour and complexity to my understanding of the subject.

So, I thank Arundhati Roy for providing intellectual leadership in these difficult times.

Regards

Abhinash Borah
Department of Economics
The University of Pennsylvania

I must say that I don't agree with Ms Roy that it's unproven the Delhi Police was involved in the Geelani shooting. It's so obviously their handiwork that it is difficult to even think of any other suspect. Their crude attempts to pass the blame on to Geelani is more of a proof than ever.
But I do admire the way in which she has pulled the carpet from under her detractors' feet by parodying just the sort of hate-mail the traitorous scum who infest the Outlook website send in after every article of hers. They can only look ridiculous now.

I was mildly surprised to find this article by Ms Roy in your magazine, only because I had thought she no longer considered herself an Indian. (Words to the effect of wanting to secede from India after the nuclear tests?)Maybe she has changed her mind, because there are very few countries in the world that allow this kind of freedom in mainstream publications. She could do a lot worse than India. But about the article, none of us will not leave Geelani alone, he is exists in the public domain, and we all have the right to an opinion on him. Remember, it's a free country.
I am surprised that people are so suspicious of a Congress government, because if you believe Outlook, it can do no wrong, unlike the last, which could do nothing right.
The man has made enough enemies in his life, so I would like to know what makes people think it has all the hallmarks of a Delhi Police operation. Pray, what are those hallmarks? One rarely sees the Delhi police in any sort of action(besides VIP roadblocks).

While i skimmed through the entire article, it was the last para that had me rolling over laughing !!
Oh come one roy. Just because you mock at your critics does not mean what your 'spoof' is false !!
Amazing case of split personality. She can write like herself and then rebut herself equally well too !! Really if you were having a conversation with yourself, why did outlook have to force it down our throats.
Re-read your own spoof of how your critics respond and tell me why they stand in error. Just because you mocked them ?? Surely you kid yourself.
Let me quote from your spoof and add in what i think about it.here goes:

As usual she flays us with her passion and poetry but no facts
True
Why can't she go back to writing award-winning children's books and leave us in peace?
True
She should try living behind a burqa and see what it feels like
True
The only thing she is "pro" is publicity.
True
There is no place for people like this in the New India—the foremost, emerging international superpower.
True

lastly
india.patriot@sil iconvalley.usa
-- really i have been trying to see what is wrong in the above line and after 4 hours i quit. honestly i dont see the irony. Maybe i am not smart enough to figure it out. But then again maybe it's just all in your head
regards

Hi fellow posters,
I normally trawl the readers comments after i read an article on Outlook. I checked the same for this one too.

DANGER DANGER DANGER !!!
I can see that a lot of p-secs have joined forces to alter the nature of the debate. There are many yahoo groups where the p-secs meet in secret (you will have to jump through many hoops to become gain memberships there) and their posts are always about plotting the next 'democratic' protest or conspitorially try to malign individuals of good standing.
Seeing the many posts congratulating roy, something smells fishy. Looks like the roving gang of p-secs is at work again!! Plundering and polluting the places through which they pass. It is a known tactic of the p-secs to infiltrate online discussion groups to counter 'negative propaganda'.
So please beware of suspiscious looking posts that 'innocently' say, 'I dont agree with you Ms roy but maybe your right'. An innnocent reader will be misled into thinking it is authentic critic.
CAVEAT EMPTOR !!
P-secs you stand exposed!!

In case you have any doubts of the fiendish schemes of the p-secs, go to this link:
http://www.sulekha.com/news/newsitem.aspx ?cid=415768

and check this one too:
http://www.sulekha.com/news/newsitem.aspx? cid=415785

p-secs know how to manipulate the media to their ends. Lets not fall for such tricks anymore

Ms Roy,

We want to hear more from you. We are sick and tired of the pathetic writers on outlook. Also of the vomit of RSS.. Let them vomit and let their other supporters lick it... please dont give a damn.
You are one of the most courageous persons ever born in India. The fact the you are a woman makes you 10 times greater in our bride buring 5000 year old great culture!!!!. India needs more Arundhati Roys.

I suggest Rajesh join Arundathi as her PA, so that he can praise and live in her BS cult. ALso it would be better to his own interest not to forget his Indian roots. If India is so developed, the credit also goes to BJP led coalition (who indicentally are from RSS) who modernised India after the efforts of PV Narasimha Rao. All the other idiots like Dal, congress, etc looted india to the core. WHy dont Rajesh resign his job in NY and go back to india as personal assistant of Roy. HE can praise her and her writings all his life. Also he can join Roy in going to Church, where she gets paid a lot for her efforts in bringing India down. I am also tired and sick of his pathetic and boring writing on outlook. No hard feelings please.

On the flip side, may be Rajesh is sarcastic about Roy's articles. Well, you know its like good cop and the bad cop roles. After all, at the end of the day, Roy also needs some one to praise her BS so that she will get energised to write another piece of crap. I appreciate Rajesh for his efforts and keep it going Rajesh.

Dear Ms Roy,
All that you have said in your article "
Who Pulled The Trigger...Didn't We All? sounds correct but hollow since you have never spoken about the plight of Kashmiri Pandits. Are they neither Kashmiri nor Indian enough to be worthy of your poetic skills. What happened in Godhra was ddevilish but still Muslims were not driven out of their birthplace and here are those Pandits living like refugees and will in all probability never return to their homeland. But NO you would never raise your voice for them since it is not fashionble to do so.
I hereby challenge you to raise your voice consistently for them also and if you cannot then rest in peace.

Dear Sir,
Ms Arundhati is absolutely correct to point how how petty TV talk show host and media help in spreading the false understanding of an issue, in this case that of Mr. Geelani. Mr Geelani and his family have suffered in our "free" india without any wrong doings. What kind of nation we have become ? The basic demand of a civil society is to provide to its citizen a fair justice system. When the different political parties are harbouring criminals what we can expect of out judiciary and executive? And where are the Nationalist who claim to care aout the nation but don't protect its citizens?

Thank You
Ashish
WI, Waukesha

Minorities are the safest lot in India. Safer than in Islamic countries. Here is the classic case of having the cake and relishing it too. They have separate personal law in civil cases but not in criminal cases. They can breed themselves as though were endangered species being prodded and supported by the State to grow themseleves rapidly. Except in the Kanchi Sankaracharya's case, there had not been many instances of police high handedness against VIPs in the recent past, though the police continue to ignore several serious problems faced by the common man. I bet no police officer will ever have the guts to corner a minority person and that too a great celebrity like this rouge more so when the there (PSEUDO)Secular govts both in Centre and State. Why are we being fooled that police cannot kill a person in point blank range. IT APPEARS TO BE A STAGE MANAGED DRAMA THAN ANYTHING ELSE JUST TO PUT MORE PRESSURE ON THE DELHI POLICE TO CLOSE THE CASE AGAINST HIM.

For a change, what a reasonable arguement. Yes, we shall all rally together in this cause, and while we are at it, let's also kick up a ruckus over the hushing up of 1984 Nanavati report, the police "case" on Shankaracharya, the farce in Goa and everything else as well. Who says there is a paucity of causes to champion?

And who says ARundhati di is not pro anything (afterall she once characterised herself as a pro of a different sort: the hooker with a booker)?

She should immediately be employed by the CPM as its PRO, the Public Relation Officer, but there is a risk then that she might become pro-foundly boring.

She uses poetic language to describe the facts. What is our patriot talking about? Clearly,
(S)He is brainwahsed by Weapons of Mass Deception.

BTW, who is (s)he to declare who has and who has not a place in India?

Is that "insult" a real one or made up by Arundhati? If the latter, it's still exactly the stuff vile traitors like Jehad Singh, Lalit Gas-bagai and Vicky Chow spout. Let them be at the receiving end for once and enjoy them howling.

Another piece of crap from her. I wonder why she did not come out so strongly on Kanchi episode, when everyone in the world including that fat bitch CM of TN knows that Acharya has nothing to do with the allegations. What a shame to disrespect the highest Guru of hinduism. Unlike Imams and Bishops who aschend to their positions by hook and crook, who dont have any morals and who had malintentions; Kanchikamakoti Peetam is the abode of learning in hindusim, its philosophy and divinity. Hope to see some response from her on this episode before the court raps up the SIT team and fat bitch and the indian media including Outlook (Assole Anand and Mehta team). After that its all face-saving mode for all these. I wonder why outlook never covered all the court proceedings, the comments of the judges and the public response.. It only covers one-sided journalism by mediocore idiots like Anand and Mehta who are on the mission to destroy hinduism.

why not write an article tyo defend that hurriat rat who was causght with bundle of fame 1000 rupee notes while coming out of the pakistani embassy. that would be interesting to see the spin by the JNU gang

-Who is responsible for the genocide of thousands of kashmir pandits whose children live like refugees in their own country ?
-Who is responsible for the state of affairs in the country where school childrens have to take to the street for their safety putting every right thinking, hard working citizen to bow their head in shame ?
-Who is responsible for hijacking Mahatama philosophy(cannot even call him Gandhi in the current atompshere) so that now secularism means society without morality.
-Who is responsible for abolishing the livelihood of thousands of families living in a poor country, so that the roy's can claim one more claim feather in their cap in the name of abolishing child labour and make them a good recruiting ground for the missionaries(kerala). Just forget about the poor families and leave them to their fate once the agenda's of the roy's is achieved.
-Who is responsible for the acceptance that the culture of violence is okay in this land of Buddha ? Who is responsible for instigating the poor people to take recourse to violence in the name of 'coming revolution' ? Who is responsible for using them as their stick in their carrot and stick 'communist' philosophy ? Who is responsible for the deaths of the naxalites victims - who are the 'collaterals' in the eyes of liberal and for the deaths of the instigated naxalite youths.
-Who is responsible for the screwed status of Kerala and which keeps producing people like this who after screwing kerala are in a bigger stage to screw India?
-Who is responsible for the life and livelihood of the families of the police and miltary personnels who are directly in the line of fire of this anti-national forces? The rantings of this communist against state and police should/will not hide the fact that ultimately the police are human beings too and they too have families and once the communist cameras and pens move towards something more lucrative the police still have to deal with the anti-national forces.
- Who is responsible for killing the entreprenur spirt of the indians and developing the concept - state as entitlements to be looted ?
- Who is responsible for inventing history ?
- Who is responsible for promoting the idea that eating grass is good for the tribals provided they have their freedom to leave in the fringes of the society while these liberals jet-set and rule the world ?
- Who is responsible for destroying the dignity/pride of the hindus by erasing their history and inventing new ones in its place(http://hamsa.org)

God I do not know how this people sleep at night ?

Arundhati - A good story, I do not know the details of Geelani case . We definitely need a high profile writer to safeguard the rights of every human being. I wish we do a better job of alleviating the suffering in remote corners of India, it is painful (no beyond painful) when you read the news of starving farmers in remote parts of India. More shameful is the hypocrites (including me and india.patriot@siliconvalley.com) who resides in USA or some other country and claim to know that everyone in India is getting benefitted fromt the IT/Industrial revolution, so much for the trickle down economical benefits).

For India Patriot : what is the definition of patriotism.

Peace

"I'm not in the business of making unsubstantiated allegations."

-- arundhati roy

"I am not a crook"

-- richard nixon

I want to thank Ms. Roy from the bottom of my heart for keeping her article to only two pages.

I know it must have taken her a lot of effort to not to use sentence constructions as meandering as the Brahmaputra delta but she deserves a Booker all by itself for this splendid effort. Bravo Ms. Roy - next time try for a single page and keep trying to shorten it at every subsequent try.

Ms.Roy may not make much sense aboutAfghanistan or Narmada,but on Geelani issue,she is right on the money.The reason why we will always remain a third world country is that the law enforcement agencies are thoroughly corrupt and treat citizens without courtesy..Indeed when the suspect happens to be a muslim in a terrorism case,donot underestimate the chances that the suspect will be tortured to extract a confession.I sympathise with Mr.Geelani.In any civilized society,a man is innocent until proven guilty.We need a grass root movement to end police brutality and streamline justice system which is a big mess.And we pride ourselves in having an independent judicial system!

Minorities are the safest lot in India. Safer than in Islamic countries. Here is the classic case of having the cake and relishing it too. They have separate personal law in civil cases but not in criminal cases. They can breed themselves as though were endangered species being prodded and supported by the State to grow themseleves rapidly. Except in the Kanchi Sankaracharya's case, there had not been many instances of police high handedness against VIPs in the recent past, though the police continue to ignore several serious problems faced by the common man. I bet no police officer will ever have the guts to corner a minority person and that too a great celebrity like this rouge more so when the there (PSEUDO)Secular govts both in Centre and State. Why are we being fooled that police cannot kill a person in point blank range. IT APPEARS TO BE A STAGE MANAGED DRAMA THAN ANYTHING ELSE JUST TO PUT MORE PRESSURE ON THE DELHI POLICE TO CLOSE THE CASE AGAINST HIM.

For a change, what a reasonable arguement. Yes, we shall all rally together in this cause, and while we are at it, let's also kick up a ruckus over the hushing up of 1984 Nanavati report, the police "case" on Shankaracharya, the farce in Goa and everything else as well. Who says there is a paucity of causes to champion?

And who says ARundhati di is not pro anything (afterall she once characterised herself as a pro of a different sort: the hooker with a booker)?

She should immediately be employed by the CPM as its PRO, the Public Relation Officer, but there is a risk then that she might become pro-foundly boring.

She uses poetic language to describe the facts. What is our patriot talking about? Clearly,
(S)He is brainwahsed by Weapons of Mass Deception.

BTW, who is (s)he to declare who has and who has not a place in India?

Is that "insult" a real one or made up by Arundhati? If the latter, it's still exactly the stuff vile traitors like Jehad Singh, Lalit Gas-bagai and Vicky Chow spout. Let them be at the receiving end for once and enjoy them howling.

Another piece of crap from her. I wonder why she did not come out so strongly on Kanchi episode, when everyone in the world including that fat bitch CM of TN knows that Acharya has nothing to do with the allegations. What a shame to disrespect the highest Guru of hinduism. Unlike Imams and Bishops who aschend to their positions by hook and crook, who dont have any morals and who had malintentions; Kanchikamakoti Peetam is the abode of learning in hindusim, its philosophy and divinity. Hope to see some response from her on this episode before the court raps up the SIT team and fat bitch and the indian media including Outlook (Assole Anand and Mehta team). After that its all face-saving mode for all these. I wonder why outlook never covered all the court proceedings, the comments of the judges and the public response.. It only covers one-sided journalism by mediocore idiots like Anand and Mehta who are on the mission to destroy hinduism.

why not write an article tyo defend that hurriat rat who was causght with bundle of fame 1000 rupee notes while coming out of the pakistani embassy. that would be interesting to see the spin by the JNU gang

-Who is responsible for the genocide of thousands of kashmir pandits whose children live like refugees in their own country ?
-Who is responsible for the state of affairs in the country where school childrens have to take to the street for their safety putting every right thinking, hard working citizen to bow their head in shame ?
-Who is responsible for hijacking Mahatama philosophy(cannot even call him Gandhi in the current atompshere) so that now secularism means society without morality.
-Who is responsible for abolishing the livelihood of thousands of families living in a poor country, so that the roy's can claim one more claim feather in their cap in the name of abolishing child labour and make them a good recruiting ground for the missionaries(kerala). Just forget about the poor families and leave them to their fate once the agenda's of the roy's is achieved.
-Who is responsible for the acceptance that the culture of violence is okay in this land of Buddha ? Who is responsible for instigating the poor people to take recourse to violence in the name of 'coming revolution' ? Who is responsible for using them as their stick in their carrot and stick 'communist' philosophy ? Who is responsible for the deaths of the naxalites victims - who are the 'collaterals' in the eyes of liberal and for the deaths of the instigated naxalite youths.
-Who is responsible for the screwed status of Kerala and which keeps producing people like this who after screwing kerala are in a bigger stage to screw India?
-Who is responsible for the life and livelihood of the families of the police and miltary personnels who are directly in the line of fire of this anti-national forces? The rantings of this communist against state and police should/will not hide the fact that ultimately the police are human beings too and they too have families and once the communist cameras and pens move towards something more lucrative the police still have to deal with the anti-national forces.
- Who is responsible for killing the entreprenur spirt of the indians and developing the concept - state as entitlements to be looted ?
- Who is responsible for inventing history ?
- Who is responsible for promoting the idea that eating grass is good for the tribals provided they have their freedom to leave in the fringes of the society while these liberals jet-set and rule the world ?
- Who is responsible for destroying the dignity/pride of the hindus by erasing their history and inventing new ones in its place(http://hamsa.org)

God I do not know how this people sleep at night ?

Arundhati - A good story, I do not know the details of Geelani case . We definitely need a high profile writer to safeguard the rights of every human being. I wish we do a better job of alleviating the suffering in remote corners of India, it is painful (no beyond painful) when you read the news of starving farmers in remote parts of India. More shameful is the hypocrites (including me and india.patriot@siliconvalley.com) who resides in USA or some other country and claim to know that everyone in India is getting benefitted fromt the IT/Industrial revolution, so much for the trickle down economical benefits).

For India Patriot : what is the definition of patriotism.

Peace

"I'm not in the business of making unsubstantiated allegations."

-- arundhati roy

"I am not a crook"

-- richard nixon

I want to thank Ms. Roy from the bottom of my heart for keeping her article to only two pages.

I know it must have taken her a lot of effort to not to use sentence constructions as meandering as the Brahmaputra delta but she deserves a Booker all by itself for this splendid effort. Bravo Ms. Roy - next time try for a single page and keep trying to shorten it at every subsequent try.

Ms.Roy may not make much sense aboutAfghanistan or Narmada,but on Geelani issue,she is right on the money.The reason why we will always remain a third world country is that the law enforcement agencies are thoroughly corrupt and treat citizens without courtesy..Indeed when the suspect happens to be a muslim in a terrorism case,donot underestimate the chances that the suspect will be tortured to extract a confession.I sympathise with Mr.Geelani.In any civilized society,a man is innocent until proven guilty.We need a grass root movement to end police brutality and streamline justice system which is a big mess.And we pride ourselves in having an independent judicial system!

Arundhuti'didi: Your client, Geelani, don't condemn Islamic Terrorism in Kashmir. Rather he supports it. He traces the root of Islamic terrorism in Kashmir Valley to brutalities of Security forces, however we all know: forces were deployed after Jan 1990 where 500,000 pandits were Raped, Killed, Maimed, driven out from their ancestral home. He also believes in self-determination of Kashmiris.

Now, all these positions were taken by him in an open interview with another news-paper. God knows, he attended, aroused, mis-guided how many innocent people. Now, tell us from deep of your heart: Does these positions make you a suspect?

I am very heartened to see your tactical approval for a CBI Probe ("by other agencies"). You are playing the same Game as VHP.

Secularism, Democracy, Freedom, liberty --all these concepts are Great. But equally important is: IT MUST BE APPLICABLE TO ALL INDIANS.
Are you doing that? Tell us, how many times you wrote about th Plight of Kashmiri Pandits. The plight of Bangladeshi Buddhists/Hindus.

That's why people like you are loosing the "moral" high-ground like never before. Remember, Gandhi's remark on who the person who Killed Swami Shraddhanand, in his Sick bed? However, Mohmad Ali clarified later: "Even a fallen Muslim like who killed Shraddhanad, is better than Gandhi, who is a Idol Worshipper".

I bet, your client thinks similarly about you, Didi.

Folks, the news is good for the suffering people of India. This time we must thank Madam Arundhati Roy for boring us with only ‘two pages’ of her rather ‘defensive’ commie diatribe.

Let us analyze her last sentence:

Madam writes: Quote: “That’s it from me folks. Bye now. Let the insults roll. Oh look! Here is one already”. Unquote.

The content of her last sentence is, indeed, “defensive”. Or in other words, she argues in support or justification of her article’s logic, which she already knows is utter nonsense. And she is unconsciously expecting insults to roll.

Madam Roy, since you are expecting the insults to roll, then please allow me to roll one insult from Canada:
Madam, I have just used your two pages of illogical logic as today’s toilet papers. No malice intended. It is only a cost saving exercise.

Didi's complain about "Indian Patriot" from the West is very interesting.

Please include MK Gandhi, father of the Nation, in that List (Page 129, "Aryans and British India", by Thomas Trautmann). Gandhi came to appreciate the Bhagvat Gita, Vegetarian Congenial, and Indian Civilization in England. Same was the case for Aurobindo and many others.

"Orientalism" in Britain had two branches: Indo-mania (Jones etc who looked into India and insisted "Cultural relativism", meaning reading Indian Civilization through its own set of rules, hierarchies..), and Indo-Phobia (Macaulay etc..who wanted to impose Western set of tools to read Indian Civilization). Though Indo-phobia became most dominant force after death of Jones due to many reasons: like Christian Missionary Agenda etc, Indo-Mania didn't collapse totally. They still existed, though much recessive. Our founding father derived his Indian Civilization in England.

Dear Didi: Your construction of India is constructed outside India. Do you believe in "Cultural relativism", meaning one culture is to be analyzed through its own set of tools? You believe in that, when it comes to Islamic Ones, but NOT the Hindu Ones. Geelani will NEVER allow you to Question “the Glorious rule of Khalifas”! Will he? You are a colonized woman. Europe in NOT a geographical entity to you. Its in your Mind, Body, psychology..everywhere.

(So, "Indian Patriot" is also colonized by Indo-mania? You almost proved that, until Prof. Tapan Roychowdhury etc came. Bhudeb Mukhopadhyay, India's first nationalist, or Bankimchandra Chattopadhyay DID NOT learn Vedas/Upanidhadas/Gita from Jones. They learnt it from Pathashalas of Nabadwaip.)

For those moronic Pseudo-Seculars, who limit their knowledge to Ms Thapar (a Colonised lady herself through the methods she apply): Thomas Trautmann is a Professor of University of Michigan. This book is published by University of California Press. For heaven's sake: read this Book to understand the full-extent of damage done by British Rule.

Didi'bhai Arundhuti,

"England has to fulfil a double mission in India(Asia): One destructive, the other regenerating -- the annihilation of the ASIATIC SOCIETY and the laying of the material foundations of WESTERN SOCIETY in ASIA" --Karl Marx, Pg 306-7, "Surveys from the Exile", As quoted in "Orientalism", Edward Said, Pg 154.

You are colonised to the core, carrying the weight of Marx's utopia. How much Marx knew about India, China, Near-East when he wrote "scientific socialism"? Just couple of reports produced by Colonial East India Company.

You are a Neo-Communist, who gloss over horrible crimes perpetrated by regimes in Soviet/China and many other places. If you can build a Utopia of neo-left without those horrible crimes, what is going to stop Nehru, Tagore, Gandhi to build a Eutopia of great past of Indian Civilization? Was Nehru proud of Indian Civilization? I bet. Would Arjun Singh de-toxify those Comments, Lectures, Poems, Stories, dance-Dramas of Tagore, Nehru and many others? Lets also detoxify throughly: Jagadish Bose, S. Ramanujam (mathematician) ..Lets kill them. Every art: from Jamini Roy, to Abanindra-nath..

What was the deal of Indian Nationalism? Indian nationalism was build on two-tier approach. We would embrace material world of Europe(science, technology, rational formes of economic organization, modern methods of statecraft etc) , because that's what gave birth to huge European Power who colonized us. Why we needed Power? Because without it, We wouldn't be able to protect our real INNER CORE: age-old culture, values of India. We were over-run by many, even before Britishers arrived. That's what partha Chatterjee writes in "The nation and its fragments".

Alas..people like you hate anything Indian.

The concern of "Indian-Patriot" is on Secular ground. When he says, you are anti-Indian, he is referring to State-craft. Godse killed Gandhi --but what you never tell the world is: it was related with statecraft, and NOT BECAUSE GANDHI WAS LESS HINDU. Gandhi was always more Hindu, than Savarkar, or Advani. Any day. That's why people like you have to engage a discourse of lies, more lies, and more-more lies. With "moral relativism".

By ending her article the way she did, Ms. Roy didn't manage to obfuscate the fact that she still remains an idiot.

Saikat,

These people don't have any proof that Delhi Police(DP) attacked Geelani. Didi is saying: as DP "shadowed" Geelani, they must know who attacked him. However, Didi never answers: Why Geelani didn't go to the Court when he was being "shadowed"?

Nandita Haskar is not a small kid. She knows the law better than most of the lawyers of India. She knows very well, unless she has some reasonable ground to prove, Geelani was attacked by DP, court will NOT listen to her. That's the message of Supreme Court verdict in Kanchi Seer case.

These people know all these stuff. Then why are they raising these issue? Because, Police has raised some solid questions on conduct of Nandita Haskar, her Husband, some family member of Geelani.

For public like us: We came to know who is Nandita haskar. What's her Husband does. What's the take of Geelani on Kashmir Jihad. And more exposure on "moral relativism" of these pseduo-seculars. Begum Teesta Javed Khan, Nandita Haskar, her Husband...and their supporters. Some impressive list! Lets also wait on what Supreme Court say on Begum's filing of case in Supreme Court.

Will the Booker ( or is it Hooker ?) prize winner write a similar piece on Shankarachaya?
After all, all what she says about the media's assault,the false accusations are all equally true about the Acharyas.
Or is it because the Acharyas are -Hindus,South Indians and --the most dreaded disease of all--BRAHMINS ? And the accusers' -including OUTLOOK-belonged to HER side?
Yes your proforma letter was most informative especially as the founder of the world's newest religon-ANTI-AMERICANSIM.I look forward to seeing her followers literally killing each other like it happens all over the world in Baghdad,Lucknow etc!
And let us not forget she won the Booker Prize for Fiction 15 years ago --which is what she has continue to write ever since!

" I'm not in the business of making unsubstantiated allegations"
And this is precisely what this person goes on to do in the article! The author has turned out to be an expert on everything under the sun, from nuclear conflict to environmental issues and now on human rights.

Just as a note, the ending was pathetic. If the author wanted to fend off criticism by terming it as insults it was a desparate and futile attempt to silence those differ with the author's viewpoint. Perhaps she should go back to writing some fiction and get back the touch in the prose. Even that is missing these days. Is the industry of writing not as profitable as the human rights industry?

Are you sure miss Roy that u are not in business of unfounded allegations:-) I mean how come your memory could be this short, do you want me to post your fictinal journalism during GUjarat riots where you penned a graphic picture ofhow a person was murdered while all this time the said person was having fun in US of A ( yeah the country which is ur object of hatred).

Jeez give it a rest go back to fiction writing again..

Lets be more constructive here. I think we have lost enough of our country's energy just in the act of judging whos good and whos bad.

IMHO, I feel that journalists and the media have a great responsibility as far as putting the facts to the public. They are supposed to put the plain facts of an incident/a condition nothing more. Lets leave it to the readers who have enough brains to judge whos right and whos wrong.
Secondly, putting the story/news straight and crisp avoids any misconceptions/misjudgements or confusions amongst the readers. Thirdly, there are lives of people which are at stake here, lets not make a persons life miserable with words which reach such masses.

With respect to the story here, we ought to have more transparency with respect to someone being convicted. The solution here again is putting the facts rather than anyones opinion.

Dear Arundhati,
By ending the article the way you did, you actually honoured those who dont deserve any. Do not be disheartened for we are with you. We dont write the same thing again and again by changing names. Neither are we paid per email by RSS as the others are. Posts on this article only reflect upon the culture of the writers..great 5000 year old culture. I absolutely loved your piece on "Murderous God" . Please keep writing, we wait for your articles, It would be nice if you could elaborate on the RSS dirty plan which you outlined in your article during gujrat riots.

Monica. Pros are more cultured than you are

Arundhati,

I highly respect your freedom as activist or is that activist writer to write WHATEVER catches your fancy next. In fact ma'am, as implied in the word "we" you seem to have attained great strature by claiming your share in the responsibility of pulling the trigger in a christ like jesture of 'supreme sacrifice' for the sins of others or whatever it is that you meant.

However ma'am, I would personally like to clear my name as i believe it implicates all Indians. I never had anything to do with it at all. Goodness gracious! I just hope that reading the "chaddiwaala" responses does not make me an accompliace. I know I am being petty but I do not share your aspirations to such saintly greatness and I would rather leave it to you as you have mastered the art to perfection and all your awards are testimonials of this.

Of course you need not remind us how you are not in "business of making unsubstantiated allegations" and declarations. Honest ma'am, we believe that you have columns of research behind each claim of yours, reflected amply in every pearl of wisdom that you effortlessly and routinely drop, for example how ONLY "little boys clamour for new video games" - War is Peace.

By the way am really curious to know what you meant by the following in another peice - "People who live in societies ravaged by religious or communal bigotry know that every religious text-from the Bible to the Bhagwad Gita-can be mined and misinterpreted to justify anything, from nuclear war to genocide to corporate globalisation." It would be great if you could clarify which other books share company with The Gita and Bible in being misrepresented. On second thought, pray, let what your ommission signifies be a secret. I must congratulate you ma'am for being the proverbial cat.. that always lands on its feet and has nine lives. Afterall what good a dead soldier would be to her cause.

I really cannot make up my mind.. On third thought perhaps I am guilty of misinterpreting you. You might have deliberately left things unsaid making the context of why you left them unsaid, a conspicous statement in its absence!! Well said ma'am about what you did not say.

Now I remember... I think I will have to afterall eat back all my words.. It seems you know what I did this winter sale. I had bought a dull orange skirt which can be taken for safforonish colour.. Perhaps then I too am part of this "we"...

In a response to Arundhati Roy all the cheap writers have suddenly become creative. Just see the difference in these posts vs others
Shreya: you have a long long way to go. All the best to you and other budding writers. At persent your creative writing skills are pathetic but if you keep practicing on Outlook they may improve.

This is a great thought provoking article for the learned class of Outlook. (I am thoroughly ignoring the "paid" writers of the RSS and Upper Caste Hindus who try to hog this free space under some pretext and put in their proxy posts using several masked names).

Writers such as Ms Roy are the backbone of our Indian society. They really help us keep together, away from the sinister plans of the zealots who would like to see India being ruled by the VHP, The Sangh, The Dal or the entire Parivaar.

Pseudo-Secular or whatever term they may want to brand the Arundhatis of India, they are unable to digest the fact that they have failed midway in their mission to saffronize India's future. The moment someone talks sense, they start branding him/her as a Communist or Jehadi or Anti-everything!

Arundhati is absolutely correct when she says 'We all pulled the trigger". For a peaceful and a livable India, we need to ensure that these atrocities against the under-previliged sections (who are a majority) of our populace are checked with vigour and vehemence.

Lets have more of your great thoughts, Maam. Worry not about the venom. As one poet in sanskrit has put it... "Worry not about the winds that run against you, oh Garuda - These are there to help you fly you further up!!!

I am not aware of the truth of the Geelani story.But it is very surprising that a so called intellectual of the stature of Ms Roy seem more than interested in making a dig at the majority community for every other thing.

Comments on the director of a jingoistic Bollywood film doesn't augur well on her. Whoever this person is, he is entitled to have his opinion the way she has her .I don't know what category her literature falls into..I have no plan of categorising it..

I hope Ms Roy and her like focus on the problems of ordinary Indians..The world doesn't end with the so called intellectuals of Delhi. I am sure there are countless indians framed by the police , media and the intellectuals everyday... Who gives a dammn to one Geelani..

I find the response from india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa to Ms Roy's article in poor taste. Not only does the person show a complete lack of ability to critically understand the meaning of terms like democracy, development and the like, but the language with which he/she goes about discrediting Ms Roy is shameful.

Arundhuti Roy presents a point of view which is different from many of the "popular doctrines" that we get to hear from the spin doctors (or to use Paul Krugman's term, "the policy entrepreneurs") in the media. Her writings are often a warning to the pitfalls of uncritically accepting popular theories about the world. At a time when there is this tremendous tendency the world over to produce a uniform (and hence hegemonic) knowledge stucture, authors like Ms Roy are precious commodity.

I am in no way trying to advocate a cult like acceptance to her writings, for something in those lines would defeat the very ideas that she is trying to put forth. Disagrements need to be at the very heart of out critical thinking on every issue, and they will only strengthen our understanding of them. For instance, I find Amartya Sen's views on development more compelling than Arundhuti Roy's; however every time she writes a piece on development, she compels me to add further rigour and complexity to my understanding of the subject.

So, I thank Arundhati Roy for providing intellectual leadership in these difficult times.

Regards

Abhinash Borah
Department of Economics
The University of Pennsylvania

I must say that I don't agree with Ms Roy that it's unproven the Delhi Police was involved in the Geelani shooting. It's so obviously their handiwork that it is difficult to even think of any other suspect. Their crude attempts to pass the blame on to Geelani is more of a proof than ever.
But I do admire the way in which she has pulled the carpet from under her detractors' feet by parodying just the sort of hate-mail the traitorous scum who infest the Outlook website send in after every article of hers. They can only look ridiculous now.

I was mildly surprised to find this article by Ms Roy in your magazine, only because I had thought she no longer considered herself an Indian. (Words to the effect of wanting to secede from India after the nuclear tests?)Maybe she has changed her mind, because there are very few countries in the world that allow this kind of freedom in mainstream publications. She could do a lot worse than India. But about the article, none of us will not leave Geelani alone, he is exists in the public domain, and we all have the right to an opinion on him. Remember, it's a free country.
I am surprised that people are so suspicious of a Congress government, because if you believe Outlook, it can do no wrong, unlike the last, which could do nothing right.
The man has made enough enemies in his life, so I would like to know what makes people think it has all the hallmarks of a Delhi Police operation. Pray, what are those hallmarks? One rarely sees the Delhi police in any sort of action(besides VIP roadblocks).

While i skimmed through the entire article, it was the last para that had me rolling over laughing !!
Oh come one roy. Just because you mock at your critics does not mean what your 'spoof' is false !!
Amazing case of split personality. She can write like herself and then rebut herself equally well too !! Really if you were having a conversation with yourself, why did outlook have to force it down our throats.
Re-read your own spoof of how your critics respond and tell me why they stand in error. Just because you mocked them ?? Surely you kid yourself.
Let me quote from your spoof and add in what i think about it.here goes:

As usual she flays us with her passion and poetry but no facts
True
Why can't she go back to writing award-winning children's books and leave us in peace?
True
She should try living behind a burqa and see what it feels like
True
The only thing she is "pro" is publicity.
True
There is no place for people like this in the New India—the foremost, emerging international superpower.
True

lastly
india.patriot@sil iconvalley.usa
-- really i have been trying to see what is wrong in the above line and after 4 hours i quit. honestly i dont see the irony. Maybe i am not smart enough to figure it out. But then again maybe it's just all in your head
regards

Hi fellow posters,
I normally trawl the readers comments after i read an article on Outlook. I checked the same for this one too.

DANGER DANGER DANGER !!!
I can see that a lot of p-secs have joined forces to alter the nature of the debate. There are many yahoo groups where the p-secs meet in secret (you will have to jump through many hoops to become gain memberships there) and their posts are always about plotting the next 'democratic' protest or conspitorially try to malign individuals of good standing.
Seeing the many posts congratulating roy, something smells fishy. Looks like the roving gang of p-secs is at work again!! Plundering and polluting the places through which they pass. It is a known tactic of the p-secs to infiltrate online discussion groups to counter 'negative propaganda'.
So please beware of suspiscious looking posts that 'innocently' say, 'I dont agree with you Ms roy but maybe your right'. An innnocent reader will be misled into thinking it is authentic critic.
CAVEAT EMPTOR !!
P-secs you stand exposed!!

In case you have any doubts of the fiendish schemes of the p-secs, go to this link:
http://www.sulekha.com/news/newsitem.aspx ?cid=415768

and check this one too:
http://www.sulekha.com/news/newsitem.aspx? cid=415785

p-secs know how to manipulate the media to their ends. Lets not fall for such tricks anymore

Ms Roy,

We want to hear more from you. We are sick and tired of the pathetic writers on outlook. Also of the vomit of RSS.. Let them vomit and let their other supporters lick it... please dont give a damn.
You are one of the most courageous persons ever born in India. The fact the you are a woman makes you 10 times greater in our bride buring 5000 year old great culture!!!!. India needs more Arundhati Roys.

I suggest Rajesh join Arundathi as her PA, so that he can praise and live in her BS cult. ALso it would be better to his own interest not to forget his Indian roots. If India is so developed, the credit also goes to BJP led coalition (who indicentally are from RSS) who modernised India after the efforts of PV Narasimha Rao. All the other idiots like Dal, congress, etc looted india to the core. WHy dont Rajesh resign his job in NY and go back to india as personal assistant of Roy. HE can praise her and her writings all his life. Also he can join Roy in going to Church, where she gets paid a lot for her efforts in bringing India down. I am also tired and sick of his pathetic and boring writing on outlook. No hard feelings please.

On the flip side, may be Rajesh is sarcastic about Roy's articles. Well, you know its like good cop and the bad cop roles. After all, at the end of the day, Roy also needs some one to praise her BS so that she will get energised to write another piece of crap. I appreciate Rajesh for his efforts and keep it going Rajesh.

Dear Ms Roy,
All that you have said in your article "
Who Pulled The Trigger...Didn't We All? sounds correct but hollow since you have never spoken about the plight of Kashmiri Pandits. Are they neither Kashmiri nor Indian enough to be worthy of your poetic skills. What happened in Godhra was ddevilish but still Muslims were not driven out of their birthplace and here are those Pandits living like refugees and will in all probability never return to their homeland. But NO you would never raise your voice for them since it is not fashionble to do so.
I hereby challenge you to raise your voice consistently for them also and if you cannot then rest in peace.

Dear Sir,
Ms Arundhati is absolutely correct to point how how petty TV talk show host and media help in spreading the false understanding of an issue, in this case that of Mr. Geelani. Mr Geelani and his family have suffered in our "free" india without any wrong doings. What kind of nation we have become ? The basic demand of a civil society is to provide to its citizen a fair justice system. When the different political parties are harbouring criminals what we can expect of out judiciary and executive? And where are the Nationalist who claim to care aout the nation but don't protect its citizens?

Thank You
Ashish
WI, Waukesha

Dear Sir:

She admits that she is a member of "All India Defence Committee for S.A.R. Geelani" - her arguments are as biased as the people she accuses of the "so-called" fabrication.

Arundati Roy seems to come out of the woodwork when ever there is a muslim in trouble with the law.
where was she when

1) The shankaracharays's were arrested

2) When a Muslim mafia don in Bihar kidnapped a hindu woman and forcibly married her

3) where was she when there are muslim cabiner miinisters in the Indian government who are facing muder charges

4) where was she when the kashmiri pandits were being ethenically cleansed in Kashnir. Today more of them are refugees outside their home than the refugees of the gujarat Riots

5) where was she when there was a Muslim woman in nigeria who was sentenced to being stoned for having a child out of wedlock?

6) where was she when the Muslim Government in Sudan ethinically began killing other so called african muslims in darfur?

7) Where is she when the horific bombing in Bali took place killing
many innocent people who had nothig to do with the war in Iraq?

8) where was she when the Madrid bombing took place
engineeered by her friends the Al-Queda?

I could go on with the sheer hypocricy on her part. All this is goes on show where her heart lies , with the Islamic fundementalists. Never in her writings one can see her criticize people using isalm to carry out terrorist acts all over the world. Is she so blind that all teroriism is caused by U.S.A , Hindus / RSS/BJP/Wesstern Nations. What about the killings by Sunni in iraq targetting Kurds and Shia's

IMHO she is a raving lunatic person who looks for publicity in the west with the $'s. As shabana Azmi once said of the Iman of Delhi " She will pay to Airdrop him on the taliban ruled Afghanistan". Perhaps the readers can pass on the hat to raise this modest amount and Airdrop her in Saudi AraBIA where hopefully!! she can continue her tirade against all things anti-Islamic in her BURQA of Course. It may be a loss for fans who cant see her but at least if the Mullahs permit we can read about it or else we can see in a Burqua raving mad on Al-jazzera!! via the signaature videotapes tha l-Queda uses

Rajesh,

By pointing others as pygmies, you do not become a giant. If you were asked about your opinion, you'd be so bewildered about what exactly that meant as you believe that Ms. Roy has already said on behalf of people like you all that was to be said.

I dont think that you have any opinion at all and would vaguely allude about 5000 years of bride burning. It seems that you do not even share some of the genuine concerns of your protagonist except that you find her line of arguments convinient to use against others. Well you do have your use though, as the noise contributing joker of the pack.

Your identity stands revealed even under your name!!

I have always had the greatest of regard for the writings of Arundhati. She is once again right in exposing the Indian police which have been exposed in the past for nefarious stuff, and recently nailing a muslim Professor, almost killing him, in fact, to complete the version of events on the Parliament attck. Geelani must now open and tell everyone whatever he may know, so that the polices urge to kill him would come down.

A look at the several posts here, shows most of them attacking Ms. Roy as a 'communist', and even defending the Sankarachayas. Of course, most of these messages are written by right wing fascists.
However, this makes me wonder how a nation of 'secularists' could take this naked attack on secularism lying down. Indians are probably just 'tolerant' people and not really 'secular' as they pretend to be.

Just saying that a particular article or viewpoint is RSS, saffron, chaddi etc, is no argument by itself. Isn't it more important to explain why these messages are bad? Neither Arundhati Roy nor Miss Vajpeyi have convincingly shown anything, thus far. But they have positively displayed more outrage at the treatment meted out to Geelani( who after all may still be guilty) than to the actual attack on the parliament, which they seem to have trivialised/marginalised. It was the worst single political outrage directed against India in a very long time!

its always a pleasure to hv Ms. A. Roy's article.. more than the article the Ranting is very informative and fact presenting. That way she is helping us to bring out the be(a)st in us. best for presenting the facts n figures and beast for the way she make us react. and i cudnt control my laughter seeing her email id. india.patriot..... hahahahaha

Arundhati Roy has performed a very useful service by trying to bring some sanity and fairness to this issue. We should vigilantly guard against the excesses of a police force with an agenda of its own if we care for our democracy.

Don't know why the intellectuals like Ms Roy missed event in Bihar where a judge was forced to ask for transfer as he ordered arrest of the Maulvi and banning of the loud speakers used for azans. If police can arrest Shankarcharya they can arrest SAR Geelani too at any moment. Remember that his wife was inculpated by the apex court. He is a bloody terrorist trying to get sympathy from hoi polloi by proclaiming he is a Muslim talking of Kashmiri rights. Why don't he talks about Kashmiri Pandits right too ? It's like Mohd Azzaharuddin saying that he was stigmatized of match fixing as he was a Muslim. These type of people get all the support from grotesque writers like Ms Roy. They get filled by delight by attacking the Government machinery and especially police whenever they get a chance.

On one hand, Arundhati Roy sets the bar for evidence so high that she wants us to believe that we do not know who planned the Parliament attack! On the other, she feels under no obligation to apply that bar to herself, and freely casts aspersions on Delhi police, without offering ANY evidence of their involvement in the Geelani affair. Are Booker-winners privileged to wear hypocrisy on their sleeves? Roy's argument is as phoney as her ownership of the Pachmarhi reserved forest villa that the courts restored to their orginal owners: the people of India.

Dear Sir

I think as Ms arundhati roy accuses hidutva fundamentalist, in the same comment she unknowingly portrays herself as an left fundamentalist. I feel bad about people like Ms A roy. why does she use (who pulled the trigger ... We all), personally I dont feel to be communal as she portrays in her article. And I would like her to appologise unconditionally. I am a law abiding citizen and I would also like to see an India which is free from all kind of prejudices, but what Ms AR says is certainly another extreme. What does she want? to demoralise people and claim that she is the most moral. I would like her to have faith in indian ppl and not consider herself superior. I loved her articles, before I got myself confounded by her beliefs and talks because she always portrayed indians in bad light. I would like to congratulate her on her success in writing books but definetly on political commentary she is on another extreme. I should admit that I am very much aware of my identity and I dont want any part of the country to scede, because that questions my faith in a nation. And I am nationalistic, when time comes for an idea to erase international boundry I might change but today definetly national boundary has a meaning for me. But at the same time I dont want a pat on my back and constructive criticism of the system is very much expected but I would like not to belittle the very system that sustains me. Everything about india is not bad Ms AR. This is a Great country but yes there are follies we have to get over it, but not to belittle it. Our efforts should be constructive .

Dear Shreya,

You want to know my opinion. Here it is. The attack on the parliament was masterminded by BJP. The entire episode smells of BJPs complicity. That terrorists of hard core trained militant group would enter the heavily guarded parliament in order to kill a few security guards and get killed is simply unimaginable by any stretch of imagination. Not even a child with downs syndrome would take such a risk without any result. You need to do some homework on the attack strategies of terrorists. They can put the best commandos to shame. Read the assassination of Deutche Bank’s President.

BJP had both the Intention and the ability to stage manage such an attack

Intention: Portraying that a nation is under attack, I am here to save you, so rally around me, ( “ Come with me if you want to live’ in Arnies words) is a very common political game. Monarchs and governments have used it commonly across the word. The Saudi monarchy commonly used this ploy in order to rule. George Bush used it openly to get reelected ( read his Patriot act. Also see Fahrenheit 9/11). This move is documented in every political science document, even the thousands of years old Chinese war book “ The Art of War’ has it. Machiavelli wrote about it. The BJP no longer had the Babri Mazid to mobilize people. What is a better mobilizer than Pakistan? What can make people rally behind BJP more than an attack by Pakistan.

Ability: A party that has the ability to go with computer generated list of Muslims and annihilate 5000 of them within a matter of three days can definitely hire thugs to attack the parliament. You can get a hired killer in Bombay slums in a few hundred rupees who can go, break the glass of a car with a sledge hammer and shoot the occupant. Such contracts don’t need expert hit men to execute. Plenty of People willing to kill for money are available who don’t bother about the consequences.

Geelani: Police is the most corrupt organization in the country. When Gujrat police framed, arrested and Jailed 100 muslims for a train that was never burned, When they arrested 1000s of farmers under TADA when there was no terrorism in Gujrat, what’s the big deal for them in framing Geelani. These ravers and ranters will realize the true color of Indian Police when the police frames their husband/ wife/son

Regarding your post, I find nothing worthy of comment. Just that you need to grow out of the jealousy one woman feels for another. As far as the title of Arundhatis article that’s bothering you.. Of course we pulled the trigger. Tv channels, commentators, columnists, reporters, talk show guests/hosts, film makers, politicians, writers, Government ( previous) all joined hands to pull the trigger. Don’t think that you are not a part of this system. If you are not then you must be the part of another vicious system, the system of channeling money from NRIs Hindus to fund terrorist organizations like RSS in the name of building temples. Ah yes regarding the revelation of my identity from my name. I haven’t seen an ill-informed person like you. “Shahs” are Gujrati Baniyas.. not Muslims

I think the insults against the writer are uncalled for. Its safe to say that she is no less Indian than estemeed Comrade Harkishan Singh Surjeet (CPI-M gen sec) or likes of him.

Leaving that aside, I have just a few points to clarify about the article from the writer/editor, if they happen to glance through, which are as follows:

a) The author has claimed the investigation was shabbily handled. Is there any information which she possesses that we have overlooked in this particular case?
b) The second question being as to what are the cerdentials of All India Defence Committee for S.A.R. Geelani and why would readers like me care for an organisation (or whatever it is) in the mentioned scenario ?

c) As for the names and identities of the terrorists (i am taking the liberty of calling the armed personnel who were killed while attacking parliament as terrorists but the author might want to call them freedom fighters), why dont the author for the first time take the pains of proving that those were not Mohammed , Hamza, Haider, Raja and Rana ?

Last but not the least, the author seems to have finally got the meaning of insult and contempt as she vivdly presents the readers with a letter to editor. I am glad SC again did a great job in driving the point home with the author

Doei doei

Disagreeing with Arundhati Roy is democracy in action. Trying to silence her or to malign her would be antithetical to democracy.

Ha!! Finally the Rajesh comes with Guns blazing !!
I wanted to writer a longer rebuttal but here is the summary.

About the BJP

They will kill democracy itself to get into power.

They army is a concept invented by the BJP in the name of self defence to create an enemy - Pakistan.
The army was created to bring BJP in power. Whenever BJP wants to come to power they ask army to create some border problems.

They BJP kills hindus so that they come in power and they will keep doing that to keep hindus scared of pakistan.

The BJP will keep the hindus poor so that they will not understand anything and keep BJP in power.
BJP is elected mostly by illiterate and poor states

And what will they do once they come in power.
They will declare India a hindu state, establish democracy, create army, bring education and prosperity to the hindus.


Nice logic. He needs to understand the difference between BJP, Congress, Communist and other major parties which do not fall into the above category ?
Also when he compares India with the other countries, he needs to understand the history and origin of monothesim, dictatorship and democracy?


I think the guy is delusional. He needs a dose of reality or maybe the magazine is a platform for those kind of writers and we have to keep providing rebuttal to this kind of people till we get a geniuine magazine reflecting the values and ethos of the country

Arundhati Roy is not in the business of making unsubstantiated allegations? Wow! this is news to me.

Swami Vivekanada said ...

"Do you feel that ignorance has come over the land as a dark cloud? ... Does it make you restless? Does it make you sleepless?...Has it made you almost mad? That is the first step to become a patriot. "

Folks, the news is good for the suffering people of India. This time we must thank Madam Arundhati Roy for boring us with only ‘two pages’ of her rather ‘defensive’ commie diatribe.

Let us analyze her last sentence:

Madam writes: Quote: “That’s it from me folks. Bye now. Let the insults roll. Oh look! Here is one already”. Unquote.

The content of her last sentence is, indeed, “defensive”. Or in other words, she argues in support or justification of her article’s logic, which she already knows is utter nonsense. And she is unconsciously expecting insults to roll.

Madam Roy, since you are expecting the insults to roll, then please allow me to roll one insult from Canada:
Madam, I have just used your two pages of illogical logic as today’s toilet papers. No malice intended. It is only a cost saving exercise.

Dear Friends, Since Ms. Roy seems to claim that none other than her and her communist cronies can argue in an intelligent fashion, I would like to deconstruct all the lies and fallacies and contradictions in Ms. Roy's article.

Item 1: " I'm not in the business of making unsubstantiated allegations. What I said was that since the Special Cell of the Delhi Police has shadowed Geelani and kept him under close surveillance, they ought to know who was involved. "

After claiming that she has not accused the police, Ms. Roy proceeds to do exactly that in the following sentence. She claims that since the policemen were tailing SAR Geelani, they should have known who was tailing Geelani. Now this seems extremely logical, but it starts off by assuming Geelani is innocent and then draws the same conclusion as the assumption.

Consider this:

Geelani is hand-in-glove with terrorist groups, and since Geelani was acutely aware that he was being tailed by the cops, he would have informed his peers in his terrorist groups of the same. Now, if the terrorists were going to take out geelani and had advance knowledge that he was being tailed by the police, WHY SHOULD GEELANI'S TERRORIST PEERS MAKE THEMSELVES KNOWN TO THE POLICE? Are we to assume that Ms. Arundhati Roy thinks that terrorists are too stupid to tail their own man while remaining out of sight of the delhi police?

The trick with Ms. Roy's unsubstantiated allegations are the verbal jugglery where she contradicts herself in consecutive sentences like the above.

As someone wrote earlier, Ms. Arundhati Roy is not in the *business* of unsubstantiated allegations --- it is just a hobby for a amateur journalist like her. We have all seen her in full glory lying through her teeth during those dark days in Gujarat and then refusing to apologize for her lies, but then she is hardly alone when it comes to spitting and running.

Had to respond to this funny quote from RK, Singapore:

"I think the insults against the writer are uncalled for. Its safe to say that she is no less Indian than estemeed Comrade Harkishan Singh Surjeet (CPI-M gen sec) or likes of him. "

Comrade Harkishen Singh Surjeet an Indian? Then why is it he supports disinvestment of PSUs in China but refuses to support the same in India? Why does he support China's nuclear program but not India's? Why does he prefer to view the J&K issue through pakistani lenses than through Indian lenses?

All of the above criticisms are also applicable to the "Queen of Cockamamie" (as some reader referred to her). If an Indian citizen displays a positive attitude towards Chinese development but not towards Indian development, is that person Chinese or Indian at heart?

Continuing with dissecting Ms. Roy's dishonest and prejudiced article in support of SAR Geelani:

Item 2: "There can be no doubt that the investigation into the December 13, 2001, attack on Parliament has been shabbily handled by
the Delhi Police, indeed sinisterly so. "

Note that there is no proof given as to exactly what the "shabby handling" was all about? And this is the person who claims a few sentences earlier that she is "not in the business of making unsubstantiated allegations". Now, why does she think she can lie so blatantly and insult the intelligence of the average reader? A superiority complex, perhaps?


Item 3: "We still do not know who planned the attack, or even the names and the real identities of the five militants who were killed outside the Parliament building on that day."

This is poppycock, and Ms. Roy lies blatantly because she things everyone else is too stupid to do a google search or to look at sites like the "South Asia Terrorism Portal" which tracks such issues. Here are some links that describe the identity of these attackers, which are well known, and discredit all of Ms. Roy's bare-faced lies:

Please check for the following site for all the details of the attackers of parliament and the pakistani terrorist groups that they were members of.

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries /india/states/jandk/terrorist_outfits/jaish_e_moha mmad_mujahideen_e_tanzeem.htm

"August 30: Two terrorists, including Shahnawaz Khan alias Gazi Baba, operational chief of the Jaish-e-Mohammed in Jammu and Kashmir and a key accused in the December 13, 2001 Parliament attack case, are killed in an encounter with the Border Security Force in Noorbagh locality of Srinagar."

Let us ask ourselves one question: "Is it likely that a person who is in touch with terrorists like Gazi Baba over the phone has a casual social relationship with the terrorist?" (this is what Ananya Vajpeyi and Arundhati Roy insinuate when the pooh-pooh the phone records that nailed SAR Geelani as a Lashkar operative).

Or is it more likely that SAR Geelani was a nodal point of contact for these terrorists during the parliament attack? Why would a terrorist group contact SAR geelani multiple times in the few days before the attack on parliament?

These are cynical times - India is being slowly stripped of every virtue, of every memory, cultural identity and history by the likes of A.Roy. As Varun pointed out, the attack on the Parliament itself is being trivialized by these women. The reason is simple - Hindus have been sidelined by the "Secular Democratic" state of India !!

Arundhati Roy has again written an article that portrays the Indian Military and the Indian police as evil. After reading her articles it seems like the Indian State is the worst perpetrator of crimes in the world. Would Arundhati Roy take the pains of explaining as to why Mr. Geelani was talking to militants on his cell phone before the attack on the Indian parliament? Of course this cannot prove him guilty but Arundhati, how many of us talk to militants on our cell phones? What is the probability of someone who talks to ANTI-INDIA militants on a cell-phone being innocent? Furthermore, how many of us count militants amongst our friends. It’s indeed ironic that in India the press and some famous writers like Arundhati Roy, Praful Bidwai etc. spend most of their time writing venomous articles on the Indian State. They should remember that the army in Kashmir is doing a superb job. Who is rescuing the Muslims (sorry Kashmiri’s, India is a secular state) in times of heavy snowfall. Where are the Arundati Roys and Praful Bidwais when an innocent Army man is killed in Kashmir. How and in which respect is the life of an Indian Army man less precious than that of any other Indian citizen. What about the innocent policemen who lost their lives defending the Indian parliament. I would request Arundhati Roy to please write an article on them also. Let us not forget that there is no difference between the lives of people defending India or of the life Kasmiri Pandits or of Kasmiri Muslims. The people who need punishment are people who support militants and also writers like Arundhati Roy etc. who only try to tarnish the name of the Indian State.

Folks,

The Madam writes the article. The Outlook publishes her article, and guess what?
In her article ‘mystic’ madam Roy predicts that the insults will roll.

Bong! Abra Cadabra! Hocus Pocus!

Poof! Smoke, fire, lightening, and all that stuff, which usually follow the magic spell.
And lo behold; Mr. Mehtaji appears!

With the speed of the lightening the Outlook’s Mehtaji reads the mind of that far away American East Indian boy. And mama mea, the insulting letter appears in the Outlook before the distribution of the Outlook magazine and also before that mysterious American East Indian boy had time to peruse through Ms. Roy’s article, and then e-mail the appropriate insult to our one and only commie madam.

Hey Methtaji, we are impressed with the Outlook scribes’ mystical powers to predict the future, and read other person’s mind with ESP power, and publish other person’s insulting letter even before the person in question has read Madam Roy’s article.

Oh! Wow! We are impressed.

Good try Mr. Mehtaji. Please try again!

Arundhati Roy writes:

Item 4: "I have no idea who pumped those bullets into S.A.R. Geelani. However, in deference to the general public unease with the Special Cell, the investigation ought to be conducted by an agency other than the Delhi Police."

So, Arundhati Roy admits total ignorance on who shot Geelani, but that does not stop her from claiming that the Delhi Police cannot be trusted with Geelani's case. What gives her the authority to decide who does and who does not get investigated by the Delhi police? So why should we believe the words of a woman who has been supporting this terrorist Geelani from Day one? Why should we believe a man who is friends with pakistani terrorists from the Jaish-e-mohammed over the Delhi police? Is there no end to this foolishness of Ms. Roy and her cabal?


" While it may be unfair to accuse them without evidence, they certainly cannot be considered above suspicion, and must be investigated."

So, according to Ms. Roy, we are all supposed to believe that (a) SAR Geelani must not be investigated even though the terrorists who attacked the parliament called him A FEW MINUTES before the attack on the cell phone the last time they did. and (b) The Delhi Police needs to be investigated for no reason, other than that her royal bookerness deems that they are worthy of investigation.

Sumarrily, people who hobnob with terrorists must not be touched, but people who investigate these people who hobnob with terrorists (the delhi police) must be investigated thorougly.

What kind of perversion is Ms. Arundhati Roy upto?
Nandita Haksar is a married to a Naga terrorist (NSCN(IM)) who has been hauled up before the Indian justice system for acts of terrorism committed by him. Is it any surprise that Ms. Haksar makes it her business to provide succour to terrorists who brazenly attack Indian citizens in a weak justice system.

When the justice system is weak, why do these women choose to fight for the terrorists rather than the many victims of terrorism? Whose side are they on?

Item 5: "Their bullying, ridiculous accusations against Geelani's lawyer, Nandita Haksar, the red herring they have floated about Geelani's sweater and 'missing' coat,"

Ms. Arundhati Roy lies again about the seriousness of this issue. Mr. Geelani claims to have been shot by the police, and then mysteriously all of his personal effects, which would have the forensic evidence required to understand how the shooting was done -- the point of entry of the bullet etc. --- is EVIDENCE required to determine the culprit. THE POLICE WERE REFUSED EVIDENCE by Geelani. Now, what was Geelani and terrorist-lawyer Nandita Haksar hiding? Why did they refuse to hand over crucial evidence to the police? What did they do with the evidence in the four days it was missing?

" their harassment of his family and their bizarre treatment of him as a suspect in the attempted assassination of himself—all this is doing very little to bolster their declarations of innocence."

So, Geelani and his lawyer behaving in a criminal manner does not reflect badly on SAR Geelani and his lawyer...Instead it reflects badly on the Delhi police. Clearly, A. Roy is a lying dissembler for the first order to make this phenomenal leap in "logic".

Item 6: "In the din about Geelani, it is easy and convenient to forget that thousands of people in Kashmir and the Northeastern states are being similarly treated by the police and security forces."

If Ms. Roy was any less of a liar, she would also state that there is the very real possibility that these states will break away from the Indian republic, if the terrorists and militants in these states are allowed to get away with the harrassment, coercion, and murder of civilians in Kashmir and the North East. Instead of sympathizing with the Jawan who lays down his life for the country trying to DEFEND THE PEOPLE OF KASHMIR AND THE NORTH EAST, this dissembler and liar par excellence pretends that these Jawans exist to harrass and humiliate the local populace.
Does she think that the Jawans would prefer to be in J&K trying to keep civilians safe or back home with their families? Do their lives have no value? Does Ms. Roy believe that the violence perpetrated by terrorists in the North East and Kashmir will vanish if the army and the police did not do their jobs? Does she even give a damn for the soldiers the way she seems to care deeply about people associated with anti-India terrorists? of course not, if she had such integrity, her dishonest writing would not cause such anger among the average citizen.

Item 7: " During the trial of the Parliament attack case, several major national dailies and mainstream TV channels published and broadcast a plethora of lies about Geelani and his co-accused, without ever checking their facts."

So Ms. Roy, who did not check her facts about the investigation on the parliament attack, or on the culpability of the delhi police, now thinks that she has the moral standing to accuse others in the Indian media of not "checking facts" (specifically, facts that are inconvenient to Ms. Roy and her terrorist langoti-yaar SAR Geelani).

A perfect case of the high-class hooker calling the streetwalker a woman of "cheap morals". Getting a Booker prize does not remove the burden of proof that Ms. Roy needs to present to readers when she throws out unsubstantiated allegations, even if only for amateurish, rather than business, reasons.

Item 8: "Motives are being attributed and rumours spread by commentators, columnists, fledgling reporters and ignorant talk show hosts (and guests) busy trying to sound cool and knowledgeable, with no concern for how their idle and often malevolent boy-talk might affect real people's lives"

So, suddenly a woman who has shown no concern at all for the LIVES OF THE REAL PEOPLE THAT WERE KILLED DURING THE ATTACK OF PARLIAMENT, has her heart bleeding profusely for a man who was in touch with the perpetrators of the terrorist attack.

Is Ms. Roy too stupid to note the irony of her accusing others of playing with the lives of real people, or is she cocksure that no one will notice her lies and her pro-terrorist propaganda when she bleeds all over us for SAR Geelani?

Really all it takes is start a rumour and pen few editorials the rumour becoems gospel...

(1) This geelani is hobnobbing with terrorists on cell-phone and that is mere socializing.. I never heard of any professors socializing with hardcoe LET cadres..

(2) NOW banerjee commission report on Godhara: banaerjee overlooked the presence of 2000 muslims with arms and gallons of petrols in their tow on the basis that no trace of petrol was found ( of course it won;t be found after 3 years, and yes he did overlook the forensic report at the time of this crime which mentions at least 40 litres of petrol must have been used,) and he proposes an accidental small gas tank used by tea-vendors which burst and resulted in fire... again specialists say even 10 of those gas tanks bursting won't bring that kidn of complete burnign of the bogey to fruition.. but hell it all be damned.. andsince Banerjee saheb is saing we must accpe those muslims stanidng out side with sword and petrol as peaceful people who were trying to put put the fire by pouring petrol..

grow up psec pests

Item 9:" Take, for example, the suggestion that the killer's motive was revenge—that Mohammed Afzal and Shaukat Hussain Guru (co-accused in the case) somehow masterminded the attack from their high-security cells in Tihar Jail's death row."

So, according to Ms. Roy, criminals in Indian prison cannot orchestrate attacks on those living freely. So perhaps Ms. Roy can explain how Mr. Lalu Prasad Yadav was able to run his state from within his prison walls, as do various people in the D-company who run their criminal organization from within their prison cells.

Why is Ms. Roy suddenly pretending that there are absolutely no other parties that have more than a slim motive killing SAR Geelani, when the two terrorist co-conspirators of SAR Geelani have more than enough motive to ensure that Geelani does not spill the beans.

Why this convenient and glaring oversight towards removing suspicion from the terrorist group or groups SAR Geelani might be associated with? What is the reason Ms. Arundhati Roy bleeds for terrorists, when she does not have the decency to bleed for the victims in equal measure?

Item 10:" The film director said that most Kashmiri militants who do time in prison become police informers when they're released, and are routinely targeted by militants."

This is, in fact, true. Most reformed militants work for the Indian govt. and they are routinely killed by their former colleagues. These killings used to happen with great regularity until the fence was built on the LOC.

" The MP went on to add that he knew for a fact that militants made it a point to assassinate surrendered militants—not a single surrendered militant is allowed to survive, he said knowledgeably."

So, according to Ms. Roy, no one other than her is knowledgable about Kashmir, because of course, no one else has a booker prize to show for it. Well, if Ms. Roy was any less of a megalomaniac, and chose to be informed instead of fabricating details, she would know that there are people who keep track of every single death at the hands of the kashmiri terrorsts (yes, Ms. Roy, what a waste of time, eh? instead of blleding for the terrorists, these people bleed for civilians...what perverts, eh?)

Here is a site that keeps track of every single death of every pro-India militant in J&K.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/phpBB2/v iewtopic.php?t=17
(J&K Infiltration watch)

Here is one article on how Ms. Roy's terrorist friends operate in J&K:

Teenaged rebels surrender in Kashmir
Bhaderwah, June 4 (ANI):

Two teenaged hardcore rebels surrendered before the Indian Army after being holed up during a counter- insurgency operation in Kashmir on Friday. The young boys belonged to the banned Harkat-ul-Mujahideen, a Pakistan-based terrorist outfit and had been kidnapped by rebels when they were just 14.

After a year of training, they were for the past two years deployed in the Jammu region and were late on Wednesday holed up in the Meher village, 322 km from Jammu.

Having little clue about the cause of `Jehad', they were being made party to, the boys said they were tired of the jungle life and wanted to join the mainstream. "For the last two years I have been into this. I was first taken by the HM then I ran away and stayed with a rescue wing of the Indian army but after I left the place the militants took me again. I had been thinking of surrendering for long and when I got holed up then we decided to surrender," A.B Latief (17), one of the two young terrorists said.

Under a new rehabilitation plan by the government, the two boys will be given a monthly stipend of 2000 rupees and will be enrolled into free vocational training schools being run by the Army.

Each surrendered rebel will also have a fixed deposit account of 150,000 rupees encashable after three years of civilian life with good behaviour.

END OF NEWS ITEM

Item 11: " Now neither observation is a gem of wisdom in and of itself—but bandied about in this context, it all becomes pretty wicked."

So, according to Ms. Roy, people pointing out that SAR Geelani could have been the target of his terrorist peers is "wicked"..why? because it rubbishes her claim that only the Delhi police have a motive to shoot at SAR Geelani.

Well, phooey, Ms. Roy.

Unlike Ms. Roy's lies about Indian soldiers taking it out on civilians in the NE and J&K, the reality is that Indian soldiers and policemen operate under strict guidelines, both for their safety and the safety of those they are trying to protect.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com /articleshow/msid-799405,curpg-2.cms

http:/ /jang.com.pk/thenews/sep2004-daily/19-09-2004/main /main11.htm

"Suspected militants barged into the homes of three civilians, beheaded one and fatally shot the other two, in the Indian-controlled portion of Kashmir, a top police official said on Saturday. "

This is the barbarity with which the terrorists operate --- the same terrorists Ms. Arundhati Roy and Ananya Vajpeyi are cheering from the sidelines.

Ms. Roy should note that the Indian Army runs vocational schools in J&K for those who would be steered into terrorism by her friends in the Lashkar-e-toiba. But don't let that stop your vitriol for the Indian state, Ms. Roy. We need you screeching at your loudest in order to expose you for the terrorist-supporter you are.

And to answer you question, Ms. Roy, NO, WE DID NOT ALL PULL THE TRIGGER --- one of the terrorist mates of SAR Geelani pulled the trigger and it is a pity that that the terrorist did not succeed in his task. Better luck to him next time.

After the Indian supreme court made it clear to the booker prize winning author that she was a mere citizen in front of the court she initiated a Jihad against the courts. In many of her interviews she would pass snide remarks against the supreme court and paint the judges as evil and corrupt.
I am glad the release of Jeelani has restored her faith in the Indian judicial system.

For the likes of Arundhati Roy, Kuldip Nayyar and other luminaries of the left, any SC decision that they do not agree with reduces their faith in the justice system. So basically, Arundhati's faith in the justice system on Geelani's release will exist only until the next conviction of some other terrorist that she disagrees with. Then, it is time to go to the US and spew venom and vitriol on India and Indians in front of an american audience. It is a pity that intellectual midgets and liars like Ms. Arundhati Roy represent us all in the global stage. If she was a more honest person, she would be the toast of India, but she is a pathological liar and a demagogue along the lines of Michael Moore.

Abhinash Borah tried to compare Ms Arundhuti Roy and Amartya Sen.

Ms Roy is an anarchist, whose vision of India is created outside India. Yes, Arudhuti Roy writes good English prose, but I don't see any new ideas in her speech/Articles. Any regular reader of "Socialist International" etc are very well aware of the issues she speaks. Her audience is primarily outside India. This type of Column helps her to stay in the lime-light, and who knows..even a better price for her Books.


Prof Sen a Liberal, who is ready to look into our past with Critical mind, and not just denigrade that. He would as well co-opt the modernity which suitas our values, culture. In his "Development as Freedom", he looked into "Arthasashtra" of Kautilya, and correctly concludes that there were no difference between freedom-loving ethical value system of Greece and that of Arthasashtra. The in the former, it was applicable to the free men, as opposed to Slaves and Women. In Kautilya's case, it was restricted to upper Classes of people. Moreover, there are obligatiory work suggested for the kings, which included: "duty of the King to provide the Orphans, the Aged, the infirm, the afflicted, and the hapless with maintenance".

But a Romila Thapar would invariably make "Arthasashtra" a Black-document, without looking those brighter Sides. That's why Roy and Thapars are "left-fundamentalists".

Arundati


I wish you could write something about the Kashmiri Pandits who were driven out of Kashmir valley by terrorists, in the same spirit in which you conducted the defence of Dr Gilani. Its a pity you never had the time to write about them or the dangers of Islamic fanaticism.


Why the hell would Delhi police want to keep Gilani alive, after firing bullets on him? They would have surely made him to die, had they fired the bullets. Why should they want an egg on their face? You have surprisingly kept quiet on the low quality weapon and its inability used to shoot Gilani. I am surprised your investigative brain never forced you to write about this angle.


Your innate desire of hogging on the headlines, especially on Outlook, with your ludicrous and idiotic logic pisses me off.


At the end I thank you for writing just 2 pages in the defence of Gilani. It is such a pain to read your intelligent verbose thoughts which usually span a quarter of the magazine.

Dear Rajesh(Kayrao)

May be it is the co'gress which master minded the parliament attack, so that they can allege that the BJP can not ensure the internal security of india

May be it is the madam herself who got her husband assassinated so that she can ...

Arundhati Roy is just another instance of falling journalistic standars of Outlook.

FORMAL COMPLAINT BY THE HINDU CONFERENCE OF CANADA TO THE EDITOR OF OUTLOOK MAGAZINE

Dear Sir,

On behalf of the members and supporters of the Hindu Conference of Canada, I am writing to lodge a formal complaint against your magazine’s distasteful and irresponsible coverage of the seer’s arrest. The columns written by Mr. S. Anand, which were featured in your magazines November, December and January issues, were filled with uncorroborated statements and outrageous claims. Mr. Anand’s rhetoric can verily be construed as hate propaganda aimed at inciting and fomenting hatred against Hindu minorities in Tamil Nadu for the following reasons:

* Mr. Anand is a contributor and supporter of Dalitstan.org, an internet based hate group. The group openly supports and promotes violence against Hindus (especially Brahmins) in Tamil Nadu and across India. In fact, the group’s site has been blocked under the category of violence and hate speech by Surfwatch patrol, parental control software used by many households and schools in the United States and Canada.

* A survey of Mr. Anand’s writings clearly indicates that his prime focus is on denigrating, debasing, and demeaning Hindu culture and tradition.

* Mr. Anand’s dubious and unnamed sources appear to be mainly from the Tamil Nadu police and government, both of which are famous for their corruption and unscrupulous methods. It is rather curious that Mr. Anand has gone on a limb and made outrageous claims and allegations based on his so-called sources from the Tamilnadu police. This is inspite of the Supreme Court’s judgment, which questioned the credibility of much of the evidence gathered by the Tamil Nadu police, and the recent NHRC notice to the TN government about police practices.

* The title and tone of Mr. Anand’s writings clearly indicate his zeal for inflicting the maximum damage through his article on the Kanchi mutt, the acharyas and his followers, who come mainly from the minority Brahmin community.

Your decision to publish Mr. Anand’s hateful rants clearly demonstrates a lack of editorial discretion, professionalism, and journalistic ethics. In fact, it is quite reasonable to go a step further and conclude that, by allowing Mr. Anand to use your magazine as a tool to spread his hateful propaganda, you have leant support to the ideology of intolerance and vengeance propounded by Mr. Anand and his ilk.

We hope your magazine’s senior management will give due consideration to the issues raised above and exercise meaningful editorial discretion in the future; otherwise, you leave us with no alternative but to pursue Economic and Legal sanctions against your on-line journal, which is available to the Canadian public via the internet.

(A hard copy of the letter will follow shortly.)

Sincerely,

Ron Banerjee
Director, Hindu Conference of Canada
E-mail: info@hccanada.com
Tel: 416-902-4970
Website: www.hccanada.com

I read all the comments. How do people have faith in a system which hasn't been able to provide justice to victims in Delhi/Gujarat/Kashmir/Bhopal and countless others ? How can so many people be so blind ? Guarantee of basic human rights is the principal pillar of any democracy. No system is infallible. Mistakes, serious mistakes happen but justice is eventually delivered in a true grass roots democraty. I am not sure India qualifies as a democracy in absolute terms. More and more, it seems like a democracy of the silent.

Bravo, Ms. Roy! What a clever way to preempt the critics of thy trickeries - "That's it from me folks. 'Bye now. Let the insults roll." Perhaps only Oscar Wilde's humor tipped missile can beat your clever self-victimization salvo: "The play was a great success, but the audience was a disaster." Hats off to you.

Well people have their leanings, left or right (illogical or logical) but what is "funny" here is that Ms. Roy is not good enough to "argue" with intelligent people (something she sorely lacks). I mean if a person "thinks" that "valid" criticism is "insult" then well what we all can say. I mean she must be "thinking" (can she) that she just cannot be "wrong" and since she has won "Booker" (i heard in USA people think BOOKER and
PULTIZER are trash), she has somehow "become" sole authority on "everything" (kinda like PROPHET of "TRUTH") and la behold the "madam"..thou shall not go against her as the MADAME is self-righteous. THY SHALL BOW TO HER "intellect"
and DON"T say anything against her.. Because u didn't "win" booker..

let the "odes" for MADAME roll now.

About the only treatmet I can suggest for Ms. Roy is,"sau jootia'n iske sarr parr marro aur ek ginno". I'll suggest treatment modalities for Vinod Mehta sometime later.

Jai Hind.

Ms Roy's collumn was true how much ever we want to talk at lenght of our system being un baised.. Recently ,y company was filing a criminal case against an employee in Ahmedabad who cheated our company, and when I reached the police station, the first thing the accused did when he saw me was "I know the terrorist activities you do, and I will have you put behind bars"... A cold shiver ran down my spine thinking of the possibilities,, and that too in Gujarat... The cops at the station laughed it off, but I had the scare of my life...

I could nt be myself for the rest of my stay in Gujarat....

The tag TERRORIST is the biggest insult possible for a good citizen and Mr Geelani was not only accused but also sentenced and will surely lead the rest of his life under this shadow of suspicion....

I think all this is a muddle as neither the police not geelani or the likes can be trusted. geelani is a Delhi univ teacher; it is one of the best and most sought after jobs in the country as there is litterally no work and a lot of money. People normally get these jobs by campaigning for it, if you dont believe me just look at the career records of most such people.

With no work and a handsome salary, geelani and his likes can do whatever they like, running separatist activates being the least of them.

As for the police, we all know what they are. The Indian police is a direct descendent of the imperial British police, which used the baton ruthlesslesly to protect the British raj from the "natives". The only problem is that now there are natives on both sides but the methods used are the same. It is easy to experience what an Indian policeman means, just try anyone- they are all alike, brutal, corrupt and rude - even the commission so called Dr. something. They use very abusive language; I have seen DCP level officers talking like a roadside goon and are ruthless. They have only two jobs to carry out, to fill their pockets and to carry out the orders of their pay masters (not the government but the ones who pay them even more handsomely).

Under these conditions, I am not willing to reach a judgement, I think the levels of morality in India is searching for a new low, may god not help it to reach there.

I have always had the greatest of regard for the writings of Arundhati. She is once again right in exposing the Indian police which have been exposed in the past for nefarious stuff, and recently nailing a muslim Professor, almost killing him, in fact, to complete the version of events on the Parliament attck. Geelani must now open and tell everyone whatever he may know, so that the polices urge to kill him would come down.

A look at the several posts here, shows most of them attacking Ms. Roy as a 'communist', and even defending the Sankarachayas. Of course, most of these messages are written by right wing fascists.
However, this makes me wonder how a nation of 'secularists' could take this naked attack on secularism lying down. Indians are probably just 'tolerant' people and not really 'secular' as they pretend to be.

Dear Sukhdoor,

Our view of secularism is passive. We only remains neutral and do not take the side of any religion. We are not actively secular like the french goverment which recently banned muslim head scarves, sikh turbans and big christian crosses. Says Amartya sen. If we had been actively secular, we could have easily crushed the head of hindu/muslim terrorist organisations like RSS/Lashkar. While we have a constitution which is secular in nature it cannot be above the morals of the people who govern it. The the first thing BJP goverment did was to appoint a constitution review pannel in order to slowly dismantle the constitution.

Mr. Rajesh should know that India has never been a secular cuntry. There is no claar seperation between church and State as the State countrols all Hindu temples but not churuches and Mosques. There is clearly a bias towards Muslims the vote bank of the congress. The only way India can call itsef secular is to have a uniform civil code and not allow muslims and christians
to have have their own civil code. IMHO what the BJP was trying to do was to corrct this anamoly so that all peple are equal under the law( as in the U.SA.). Unlike today when a areest warrant is executed against the Shankaracharaya but 14 pending ones against the IMAM of Delhi is not enforced. This is not secularsim but is called psuedo secularism which is what is being prcticed in India. True secularism would also mean that the subsidies given to the muslims to go the Haj needs to be scrapped. Other religions do not get this subsidy. What is being practiced in India is psuedo secularism by the likes of Ms. Roy who comes out to defend any thug as long as they are minorities (especially muslim) but will defend not the rights ofKashmiri pandits or the married Hindu hindu woman who was kidnapped and forciblly married to a Muslim Mafia don in Bihar a friend of Lallu who did not raise a finger. We are trying to pass this off as secularism in India, reminds one of what Hitler used to say. Repeat a lie a thousand times and it becomes the truth. That seems to be the guiding principle of Psecularists like Ms. Roy. In her way of thinking anything that the Congress party or the muslims / christians do is secular. But anything that BJP does is is fascist. IF Modi is a killer what about the Prophet of Islam who killed more people than Modi did is he also fascist? We have to call a spade a spade, People like Ms. Roy try to imposeon the country their narrow view of jusstice and secularism

You know I have always believed that if you are rich or famous or both then whatever you say becomes "thought of the day". Same happens with Ms Roy. We might keep on pounding against her but then that does not count as we are neither rich nor famous.

Though acumen generally prevails in the "lesser privileged" section like us people like Ms Roy take full advantage of their one sided babbling. And they take such a safe route by proclaiming any one "cynical" whoever goes against them. So if you go against them you are by default "cynical" and "communal" and "rightist". So let the ridiculous media coverage, common man indifference, politics indulgence and crap by Ms Roy continue and status quo maintained. Long live Indian democracy which bears so many black hearted monsters.

Imran Sharief:
"The tag TERRORIST is the biggest insult possible for a good citizen and Mr Geelani was not only accused but also sentenced and will surely lead the rest of his life under this shadow of suspicion...."

And rightly so, and this applies to any Indian who wants to hobnob with terrorists and terrorist groups from pakistan. You hobnob with terrorists, you pay the price, and all the whining and bitching from wannabe-jihadis is not going to help them.

If a terrorist like Gazi Baba calls you on the phone, like he called SAR Geelani, then the people on both ends of the line are suspect in colluding to conduct acts of terrorism.

Indian muslim jihadis (not the secular muslims like Sir Azim Premji or Sir Abdul Kalam) must understand that just mouthing inanities about "let's follow the law" and then turning around and assisting terrorists, is not acceptable.

Rajesh continues to shove his booted foot down his gullet:
"Our view of secularism is passive. We only remains neutral and do not take the side of any religion."

That is what secularism means. Did you bother to check the dictionary before you wrote this?


" We are not actively secular like the french goverment which recently banned muslim head scarves, sikh turbans and big christian crosses."

Muslims always pretend they are above the law. In a secular society, the muslim jihadi types ...mostly sunni wahabbis who have spread around the planet like a virus... want to remain exclusive to themselves and want the REST OF SOCIETY to bend to their whims, while they go around destroying the fundamentals of the society that hosts them. The French, unlike the fools who govern India, are taking preemptive steps to ensure that these jihadis do take too much liberty to spread their jihadi poison while accepting the dole from the french govt. (compare that to Saba Naqvbi Bhaumik, who want the Indian govt. to fund madrassas even if they preach hate and garner support for jihadi terrorism).


"Says Amartya sen. If we had been actively secular, we could have easily crushed the head of hindu/muslim terrorist organisations like RSS/Lashkar."

har har. This is what is known as "guilt by association", folks, except Rajesh here is too much of an imbecile to do it very subtly unlike masters of that craft like Ms. Arundhati Roy.

" While we have a constitution which is secular in nature it cannot be above the morals of the people who govern it."

I see. So please do expound a little more on "morals of the people". Just because you up with bullcrap like the above, which has no meaning but sounds very "secular"...it does not mean you have a point to make.

" The the first thing BJP goverment did was to appoint a constitution review pannel in order to slowly dismantle the constitution."


Har Har. Another lie about a verifiable fact. Are you too stupid to comprehend the ground rules.
Here are a few links on what was being tried by the previous govt.:

http://www.saag.org/notes/note95.htm l
http://law.indiainfo.com/constitution/society .html

On the other hand, this link of a pakistani terrorist group's Hizbul Mujahideen site (which has contributions from S. Anand, the crowd favourite in Outlook), and it says exactly what Rajesh here is saying.

http://www.dalitstan.org/journal/br ahman/bra000/brconind.html

Note the crossed swords that is an emblem of the jihadi terrorists and also read the sections on how India can be broken apart by muslim jihadis by professing a bond with "dalits". The terrorists, much like A. Roy, would like to split society apart at the seams.

My god. Such commotion! If Our Lady of Laboured Lamentation has so managed to work up everybody's bile, guess who's laughing all the way to the bank? Mr Vinod Mehta, of course, with the Lady herself on his arm.

The Reddy Reckoner: NEVER take Arundhati Roy seriously. She's conning you.

Many years ago a budding Indian actress kissed a visiting British prince in full public view. Crazy women streak (naked, of course) on to the pitch in cricket grounds of Britain and Australia. There was a nary a stone that Madonna hasn't turned -- including modeling for porn pictures -- to stay in the limelight.

Arundhati Roy pulls "intellectual" stunts, because she is in the oped industry, not in music or films. Be warned all you who believe that Our Lady of Designer Denunciations has an ideological axe to grind: she has no ideology whatsoever. Nor commitment to any principle. She's in business, plain and simple, in the business of selling herself.

Staying in her kind of business requires continuous product 'improvement' and uninterrupted brand-positioning and repositioning. Drug addicts demand more potent drugs. Porn addicts want kinkier porn. Roy's fans want her to get ever more bizarre. That's the dynamics of the market: the leader will have to keep devising ways of keeping ahead of the competition. If any Tom, Prick and Harry can claim to be human rights activist, then what's so special about Our Lady of Fabricated Fulmination? So it is inevitable that sooner than later she will have to start defending the human rights of serial killers and paedophiles. If they happen to be Muslim, that much more better.

All you who get outraged by her antics: sorry to have to tell the truth to your face: a sucker is born every minute.

Just sticking to the topic of the behaviour of the Delhi police, it was understandable in the circumstances.There is an horrific terrorist movement going on in Kashmir, the Kashmir provincial assembly was bombed in October 2001, and the whole environment was rife with anxiety abour pan-Islamic terror following the World Trade Centre attack. Then Mr.Geelani is caught talking oin his cellphone with one of the suspects! How would the law enforcement agencies and the state in the US, UK and France deal with an identical situation?

She looks kinda haggard, don't you think? The prose does too. I thought this line was rich:

"I'm not in the business of making unsubstantiated allegations."

And then madam moves on to doing precisely that.

BTW, I have no idea whether Geelani is guilty or whether the Delhi Police knows who shot him. But I also have no idea who killed Dubey, the ex-ministers in TN, Hiran Pandey, Phoolan Devi, who kidnapped that kid in Bihar, whether Lallu Yadav told the kidnappers to release him to keep his political fortunes intact, whether that Muslim League minister raped and then paid off that girl in Calicut, and whether he is involved with the LET and Dawood as some police people allege.

Hell, there's a thousand other cases where people get killed or injured, and the system screws people. So what's so special about Geelani? That he's in Delhi, and all these screaming folks also live in Delhi and are worried about the police coming after them next? That his case is high-profile? That the BJP govt arrested him, and there's nothing around to beat the BJP with right now?

Dear P.Secs,
After all of your "Secular" ranting, kindly read the message that Mr.Shukoor from Bangalore wrote in this forum:
"However, this makes me wonder how a nation of 'secularists' could take this naked attack on secularism lying down. Indians are probably just 'tolerant' people and not really 'secular' as they pretend to be. "
Note the "Indians" and "as they pretend to be" - This is how the super-pampered minority regards the rest of India - as "they" seperate from "us" and secularism is just a facade.
Makes me wonder if these people can ever live in any civilized society.

Mr.Shukoor PS,
I am neither a "right wing fascist" nor do I belong to any organization. However, I will vote in the next election.
It is obvious that in your view, an attack on a foolish person that hobnobs with terrorists is an "attack on secularism". One wonders what you propose to do other than "take this naked attack...lying down" - an indication of your violent mindset perhaps - 7th century if I may add.
Kindly pack your bags and leave for Pakistan. You people are not fit for civilized society - you are like a virus whose singular aim in life is destroying it's host.

It is intersting that outlook censored one of my comments. The comment was that in Ms. Roy;s opinion Modi was a fascist as he was responsible for killing muslims in gujarat . By the same token The so called prophet was also one as it is documented in the Koran and Hadiths he also killed a lot of innocent people
so does that make him a fascist. Outlook should stop censoring the truth

http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=41610 5
*********************************************
Hindu marries Muslim, angry mob kills brother

Press Trust Of India
Posted online: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 at 1220 hours IST
Updated: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 at 1249 hours IST

Vadodara, January 18: A mob killed a youth in Gajipura locality in neighbouring Kheda district, police said.

The youth identified as Pappu Rana was killed by the mob because his brother Vijay Rana had married a Muslim girl, Minaz, police said.
The minority community members had protested Vijay getting married to Minaz.
Police authorities had set up a police point with three policemen in the area to provide protection to the Rana family.
Despite police protection the group belonging to minority community managed to attack Pappu Rana with sharp weapons and killed him.
Meanwhile, all the three policemen posted at the locality have been suspended for dereliction of duty.
In view of this tense situation in the area, additional company of SRP from the state headquarters has been stationed.

****************************************** **

This story has appeared in Indian Express.

Please note that we will not hear the voices of Ananya, Arundhiti, Teesta Setalvad, Javed Anand, Padre Cedric D'Souza et al. when such things happen ... Also note that there are no sound bytes from the "Human Rights" organizations or any progressive universities ...

But imagine the feeding frenzy in the Indian media/progressive circles/human rights NGO's if a Hindu mob had killed Muslim lad because his brother had married a Hindu girl.

Please also take time & read the comments posted on the article. The most interesting comment was posted by a lady called Asma from Bahrain. I have cut-paste it below -

"Why bring the politicians in between? The only people to blame in this sad incident is the couple. They should have been mature enough to think about the consequences. It is high time we Indians start thinking with a secular view than with a communal view. India has been an example of secularism & we are seen with envy here as all Indians live like Indians & not like Hindus or Muslims."

So, this lady blames the couple for the Muslim mob killing the Hindu brother ...

***IF*** Geelani is a "Homo Sacer" ... then what is Pappu Yadav ? What are "Vijay & Minaz" ? Was "Secularism" murdered when the Muslim mob killed the Hindu lad ? Tomorrow, if Vijay & Minaz Rana are murdered by another mob, does it mean that it "Love" was murdered by a mob ? Have Ananya, Arundhiti, Vinod Mehta & all of us killed
Pappu Rana ?
Lets get to the larger issue ... What are we ... the teeming masses who have no recourse the law ... or access to people like Ananya / Arundhati/ Teesta et al. to take up cudgels on our behalf ? Where & how do we fit into the Indian state ? What is our status ?

WHO ARE WE ?!

Whenever I see any report of violence being commited on an intercommunal couple, or at an intercommunal wedding, it makes my blood boil. There is absolutely no sense in it. It must be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

On another topic, one of the posts mentioned the need for a unified civil code, and I too think it should be our goal. We Muslims may have missed out on all those reforms over the past 200 years that the Hindus achieved under the inspiration of Vivekanand, Gandhi and others. Moreover reforming Muslim laws is more difficult to do for various historical and other reasons. But it is our problem and we will have to deal with it ourselves sooner or later. Such reforms cannot be foisted from outside. Hindu reforms came from within the Hindu society itself. If an outside force had tried pressure tactics, it would have only slowed the process.

Arundhati Roy is being a tad condescending and disingenuous in her choice of title (... "didn't we all?") which implies that she too, is somehow morally responsible for the assault on Geelani and similar crimes. The truth is, of course, that she plainly considers herself one of the good guys, on the right side in the battle to save humanity from the rest of us hypernationalist riff-raff.

So convinced does she seem to be of her implicit good-guy credentials that she seems to have absolved herself of the responsibility to define herself in the context of the two major wars which most Indians instinctively sense are being waged against the Indian nation they know and love--the one by the forces of Islamist fascism represented by Pakistan and its Kashmir struggle for an Islamist Reich, and the other by the aspiring maoist-polpotist nomenklatura. The regrettable harm done to individuals like Geelani (who, for all I know, might actually be innocent of participating in these wars against India), and the hyperemotionalism that so offends Roy's fastidious sensibilities, are all natural outgrowths of this sense that Indians have of their nation being under deadly siege.

One so wishes that Roy (I would add "and her ilk", but truly, she is sui generis!) would trouble themselves to seriously critique this war-perception that informs the Indian sensibility with regard to matters such as Kashmir. Individual victims such as Geelani matter, of course, but only so much--witness the wholesale indifference meted out to every single one of the Hindu Pandits brutalized and dispossessed by the by the fascist struggle of the Kashmiri people. Without taking a clear stance on the pespective of those she is addresing in her article, there can only outraged flailing and scolding; there can be no persuasive engagement with those of us she "Others" with such literary panache. It follows, unfortunately, there will be ever more Geelanis, and I imagine, ever more scintillating chunks of bytes and printer's ink out of Roy, thus elegantly rounding the whole thing off.

Is that all there is to it, then? The wars go on, to the contrapuntal beat of Arundhati Roy's self-indulgent literary gyrations? Judging by the embarassingly crude coda to her article, which viciously caricatures her "silicon valley" critics, it seems that we may have to forget the literary bit.

Bapa Rao
Los Angeles
(which, thank my Hindu gods, is NOT silicon valley but Hollywood)

Ms. Roy,

More than half a century ago, the citizens of this nation prefixed the title "Mahatma" to a frail man who was admittedly flawed, but nevertheless a supremely great soul

Which title do you prefer?. Is it "Champagne
Chomsky" or "Mahatma of the Berkeley Catwalk?".

-------

GHULAM FARUKI,,

I wish we had millions of more Muslims like you who condemn violence irrespective of the religion of those who instigate it and see the need for reform.

The present situation is created, when Liberals surrendered the national space to left fundamentalists and went into hibernation. The present discourse is now owned by people like Rolima Thapar, Arundhuti Roy.

Even A Shiite cannot take out procession in Lucknow during Muhharam! Because it will be stoned by Sunnis. So, what's the solution? Ban Shhite Procession on Muhharram. As Indian Express reported yesterday: In Madhya Pradesh, as the Time of the Namaz and "Aarti" of Lord Shiva Matched, the Aarti Time had to pre-poned!

This is secularism! Surrender to Sunni Mob-Pressure. If anybody objects, be it in Lucknow, or any other place: he/shje must be Facist, fanatic. The fact remains: This Sunni-pampering attitude itself is anti-secular, fanatic, and pose greatest problem to Indian Democracy. It proves, laws, religious rights are vurnerable to Street-Power of Sunni Fanatics!

Will it breed Tolerance? Or we are Creating more Problem? When the dust settles, we will all understand, we were taken a royal ride by these Left Fundamentalists. Politicians will milk the system, by harping on religious sentiments of people! Even CPM went over-board in West Bengal showing Godhra CD to consolidate Muslim Votes!

What happen there after? Will it Solve the problem? Will it breed more tolerance?

Ghulam Faruqi:

I truly applaud your views, and I wish your views were more the norm than the exception in the Indian muslim community, not to mention left-wing communist crowd, including the likes of Vinod Mehta and A. Roy, and A. Vajpeyi -- the torchbearers of the Indian democracy. For them equality is defined like in George Orwell's "animal farm" --- some people are more equal than others, and the Arundhati Roys and Vinod Mehtas get to decide who those "more equal" Indians are.

we didn't get freedom in 1947. we got the worse
PM, worse politicians and blah blah.. But it time to take what we truely deserve. It is time to make India a "real" secular country. "Rest" can catch the train to lahore or "Middle east" or PERISH. We MUST install the secularism the AMERICAN way. It is time to say TATA to Miss "boobker" ROY and his/her croonies (is she gay???). Time is ours and we will take our due.

Hi Arundhati Roy!

This refers to your complaint of being misunderstood by readers in your recent write-up on S.A.R.Geelani. Well, you have expressed certain doutbs(read allegations) on Delhi Police, directly or indirectly. Can we as readers know on what grounds Mr.Geelani has succeeded to win your pen's sympathies? Like every crying person doesn't mean he/she is innocent, Mr.Geelani should be percieved and evaluated by keeping that in mind. Of course, if he is guilty, the severest punishment should be his fate. And, on being innocent the government should apologise through every media. But the way you are sounding harsh towards the men in uniform looks a little immature enunciation from a great writer like you. Like not every leader of a protest can explain who and why any one accompanying or following a protest rally turned notorious,the same way Police may be at their wits' end to explain 'what went wrong' and by whom ? Isn't it?



By:
SANDEEP DATTA, Email:sandeepdatta7691@rediffmail.com

Arundhati Roy writes :

"Motives are being attributed and rumours spread by commentators, columnists, fledgling reporters and ignorant talk show hosts (and guests) busy trying to sound cool and knowledgeable, with no concern for how their idle and often malevolent boy-talk might affect real people's lives."

Living in United States, I was amused to read that sentence, because that is exactly what we see here on TV, especially on channels such as CNN, MSNBC and Fox News. Whenever a major event occurs, these TV channels trot out their so-called experts on their talk shows or news commentary sections
and make them present their uninformed speculations as if they were insightful pearls. People listen to them, and the next day at work or among friends they repeat those "pearls" as if that gives them an edge over their friends.

Lying through the teeth come as natarally to A. Roy as swimming comes to fish. She has been cought lying about Ehsan Jaffery episode...and shamelessly refused to apologise for that.

Some cheek she has !

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"I'm not in the business of making unsubstantiated allegations."

-- arundhati roy

AR the Booker ( or is it Hooker?)Prize winner for Fiction many years ago (though she has continued to write only that ever since!)tells us that due to Police compliicity and media assault poor SARG is under the bullet!.
Is this a case of pot calling the kettle black? Just imagine just few short weeks ago your magazine --both---VM & SA---indulged in exactly the same kind of Character assasination on 2 persons -Hindus from South & TamilNadu and -- horrors of horrors-- bloody Brahmins to boot.!

Of course AR was very busy as usual, amongst other things, concoting nonsense like the proforma letter at the end of her article. As founder of the newest religon of the 21st Century--ANTI-AMERICANISM-- AR (PBUH)should soon see her followers behaving with each other exactly as the S & S do in Baghdad, Lucknow ( 3 killed )
(Unlike you hyp.journos. who rarely indicate your affiliations and connections in your columns,I am however prepared to declare that this letter is a resubmission of what was initially published by you and then removed ---despite what you have mentioned at the end of the page.)

Dear sir,

The voice of Arundhati Roy makes many people restless because of the simple reason that sanity cannot be tolerated by insanity. From Pokran, Narmada, war on terror to Geelani her views are the views from from a sane mind and deep wisdom and one which loves mankind. It is the people like Roy who brought change and sanity to the world and not the brain damaged india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa's views

Nejimon,

"not the brain damaged india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa's views "

Have you ever stopped to wonder how AR received a mail even before he article was printed ... thats because that mail is a fictitious one ... she expected the article to generate anger among Indias "cyber-sentinels" in the USA ...

AR is definitely smart ... else she would not be where she is ... but smart does not automatically mean that she's correct ...

MS Roy is nothing but a self serving, pontificating and judgemental women who has never heard of the idiom 'practise what you preach'.
On her point of 'hyper-nationalism', if she has so much problem with being a patriot she is welcome to renounce her Indian citizenship and retire to Timbuktoo.
Its people like her who gorge on the Western media's hunger for indian stereotypes of poverty, hunger, pain and suffering and make their 'hay'!
But what can we expect from a woman who can do anything for publicity and has no respect for the law of the land.

Will Arundathi explain us how she got the mail from india patriot even before the article was published?And also this mail by India patriot isnt anywhere in the rants and raves column or in the feedback column to this article.So who wrote this mail?How did it figure in the article even before it was published?why did this mail not figure in the rants and raves column?

arundathi has some explanations to do about the origins of this mail from india patriot.

Sampath Kumar,

Ive mentioned this before & Ill mention it again. AR is a very smart person. She writes fiction for a living. The letter from India Patriot is also fiction. It is the kind of letter she anticipated will come from the Indian patriots in the diaspora esp the USA and specifically the IT guys ... Thats her pre-emptive strike ... plain & simple ...

well, Thank you India for providing an avenue for everybody to express themselves.. I hope Arundati appreciates that.. God bless the Indians for they will never elect this terrorist supporter to a position of power.. Never does she mention once that Geelani was convicted before he was acquitted... Why would she then it would be bringing up the terrorists complicity..

A discourse on "india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa" as mentioned by Arundhuti Roy (AR).

This refererence to "India Patriot" by Arundhuti Roy (AR) is symbolic, and not real. There is a demonstrated degree of "Patriotic feelings" amongst Indians who Work/live in USA/West, and it causes huge heart-burn amongst "secular" Indian intelligentia. Romila Thapar and many other have expressed their displeasure at this mant times. I have the following observation on AR's comments on "Indian patriots":

1. At the very outset, doesn't AR appear allergic towards Patriotism? Is Arundhuti preferring "nationalism" over "patriotism", and thus ready to reorganize the Nation-State as originating Principles of the Indian Civilization, and the last word in the Country's political Life?

This Position (preferring Nationalism Over patriotism) is very much against two intellectual Gurus of Nehru: Gandhi and Tagore. These two Gurus of Nehru didn;t want their Society to be caught in a situation, where the idea of the Indian Nation would supersede that of Indian Civilization, and where the actual ways of Life of Indians would be assessed SOLELY in terms of the needs of the an imaginary nation-State called India.

For Tagore, nationalism itself became gradually illegitimate. For Gandhi, nationalism began to include a critique of nationalism itself. For both, Indian freedom struggle gradually ceased to an expression of ONLY nationalist consolidation. It came to acquire a NEW STATURE AS A SYMBOL OF THE UNIVERSAL STRUGGLE for POLITICAL JUSTICE AND CULTURAL DIGNITY.

Is Arundhuti aware that she is crossing lines, as far as founding fathers are concerned?

2. These Indians are well educated, from middle class, fruits of Indiaa's great secular education. Hardly any of these went to RSS's "hate" schools! Most of these people fall in the age group who MUST have read the History books written by Eminent people like Mrs. Thapar etc.

Would Arundhuti, and specially educationist like Thapar give us an honest answer here! Why did they fail? What went wrong that the best and brightest become a willing partner of Hindu-Right?

3. Most of these people in the West/Europe are NOT from Hindi-Heartland (no provincial rants please..its just a plain & simple fact). A Good many of them are from the southern states, where Hindu-nationalists traditionally have/had a miniscule presence. So what went wrong Ms Arundhuti Roy?

So, its kind of your own failure? Middle class Indians, fruits of India's Secular Education are becoming "patriotic", and that's what you are against?

Why are you loosing the game? What's the reason behind that? These are no Fanatic "Hindu" as far as religion is concerned! So, what is happening here?

A discourse on "india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa" as mentioned by Arundhuti Roy (AR).

Opps..I forgot to tell the most important fact as far as NRIs are concerned:

Gandhi, the father of the nation, understood Indian Culture, Hindu religion in England. There were couple of Small but dedicated passive groups in England, who used to love India, its religion, culture. These Group (Indo-Mania) were replaced by aggressive anti-Indian Indo-phobic group at later stage of Colonial history because of Political/religious compulsion. So the real lovers of India went much below, but they did maintain their presence, alebit low-profile.

Aurobindo was also converted to "Indian" by these same group, like Gandhi.

So, Ms Arundhuti? What we see today as India, was very much created by NRI utopia, like that of father of the nation!

What's the source of your Utopia?

Ghulam Faruki, you said:
Such reforms cannot be foisted from outside.

I completely agree with this. The importance of this can't be overemphasized. Reforming Islam/the Muslim society is the job of Muslims.

Having said that, I still feel there is a role for outsiders to play too. They can subject the Islamic doctrine and religious practice to critical scruitiny. People without communal axes to grind are best suited for the purpose. The bottomline is that, if Islam refuses to reform, it will be eventually taken over by fanatics, and then the civilized world will have to move in to reform it, and when we are through with it, little of Islam as we know today will remain - much like Nazism.

Some of my notes posted yesterday seem to have been removed.

outloook keeps removing my posts. What are they afraid of ? the truth!! I am ashamed by the editors of this magazine who behave like parents tying to stop their kids from what they consider to be in-appropriate. !!. Shame on you outlook!!!

Acidburn, you say that outsiders "can subject the Islamic doctrine and religious practice to critical scruitiny" in order to bring about reforms.

I do not know of any current or past examples of any reforms resulting from outsiders subjecting a religion to such scrutiny. Such interference has always been frowned upon throughout the civilized world. What needs to be done is to gradually pass the baton of leadership to younger, more educated and less literalistic clergy. The majority community can help by exhibiting understanding and patience.

Although in general I do not agree to certain aspects of what Arundhati Roy says in her articles, essays and books; but one thing about her, which I consider is that she is a brave and intelligent lady and deserves respect. Her articles are thought provoking and as well as interesting. With respect to this article I substantially agree with what Arundhati Roy has said. It is also sad to see unsubstantiated criticism of Arundhati Roy by india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa.
I therefore have chosen to answer to few of the questions which "india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa" has made in his comment.

Question: When will she understand the difference between fiction and fact?

Answer: My dear, india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa your ignorant question suggests that you have carelessly read this article. For your kind information the case of SAR Geelani is a fact; not a fiction. His innocence is also a fact; not a fiction. He is been unreasonably harassed is also a fact; not a fiction. He suffered a life threatening attack is also a fact; not a fiction. Therefore my friend wakeup from your sleep and next time read the articles carefully.

Question: Why can't she go back to writing award-winning children's books and leave us in peace?

Answer: Of course she should be encouraged to also write children books and I hope that as and when she feels she would write them. I think that children will benefit from the writings of Arundhati. But at present Arundhati Roy is busy in more important task of taking away peace of millions of KUMBHKARNAS so that they could wake up from a fictious dream world within there sleep.

Ghulam Faruki,
The trouble is, we do not have an example of a religion reforming in a pluralistic society in modern times - the last time a reform happened was in the Middle Ages, in Europe, which was overwhelmingly Christian. So outsiders had no role in it. Things are a lot different today. Many Muslims live in multi-religioius, multi-ethnic societies, and most important, the lack of reform in Islamic societies is affecting non-Muslims in a big way. So they definitely have a stake in Islamic reforms today. However, the actual task of carrying out the reforms should be initiated and concluded by Muslims themselves.

I can't say what form the reforms could or should take - only that cosmetics do not work. Chanting 'Islam is a religion of peace' ad nauseum is not going to work. If there are in-built features in Islam that promote intolerance, those have to be exposed, criticized and changed. This the only way out. Obnoxious practices in Hinduism were weeded out not by hiding or rationalizing them away, but by exposing and ridiculing them.

Although in general I do not agree to certain aspects of what Arundhati Roy says in her articles, essays and books; but one thing about her, which I consider is that she is a brave and intelligent lady and deserves respect. Her articles are thought provoking and as well as interesting. With respect to this article I substantially agree with what Arundhati Roy has said. It is also sad to see unsubstantiated criticism of Arundhati Roy by india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa.
I therefore have chosen to answer to few of the questions which "india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa" has made in his comment.

Question: When will she understand the difference between fiction and fact?

Answer: My dear, india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa your ignorant question suggests that you have carelessly read this article. For your kind information the case of SAR Geelani is a fact; not a fiction. His innocence is also a fact; not a fiction. He is been unreasonably harassed is also a fact; not a fiction. He suffered a life threatening attack is also a fact; not a fiction. Therefore my friend wakeup from your sleep and next time read the articles carefully.

Question: Why can't she go back to writing award-winning children's books and leave us in peace?

Answer: Of course she should be encouraged to also write children books and I hope that as and when she feels she would write them. I think that children will benefit from the writings of Arundhati. But at present Arundhati Roy is busy in more important task of taking away peace of millions of KUMBHKARNAS so that they could wake up from a fictious dream world within there sleep.

Minoo Chatterji, you raise some very important points. I too cannot understand why these highly educated and very bright Indians who have been so very successful in the United States, and who probaly were not involved in right wing politics while they were in India, have been won over by rightist groups here and have given up on secularism altogether, especially since they live in and admire America which is a beacon of secularism in the world, and our Indian community here is such a huge beneficiary of American secularism

Acidburn, some of your points are well taken, but as you know there are no short-cuts to difficult tasks.

All My mails have been deleted while those calling Arubdhati a Hooker are still there. So much for the pro-muslim media?????

Mr Ghulam, let me give you some idea of what makes decent and non-religious NRIs in Middle East ‘right winger’:

1. Slamming of Hindu practices by Indian Islamic scholars who visit Middle East. What is worse is the applause by Indian Muslims every time these Indian Islamic scholars play down ‘idol worship’ and numerous other Hindu rituals.

2. Indian Muslims associations organizing essay competitions (for kids) where the topics are ‘ state on minorities in India’ and something similar. It never occurs to them that in an Islamic state it is the other religions that are minority - who do not even have one decent place for worship.

3. Vegetarian Indian food is sometimes called ‘Hindu food’.

4. Bookshops have books depicting Hindus as ‘weak’, ‘dark’ , ‘ dumb’, etc.

5. Indian Muslims aligning themselves more with ‘fellow muslims’ for ‘world wide muslim causes’ but little or no compassion for their non-muslim Indian brethrens.

6. Some muslims have stopped greetings other Indians on non-muslim festivals.

Most of the Hindus appreciate the Arabs for their hospitality and tolerance. Expatriates love UAE for the financial opportunity, security and safety it provides. And no one has a problem with anyone believing that his religion is the best – but it is the unnecessary slamming of Hindus and constant playing down of Hindu practices (by Indian Muslims) that drive people into the waiting arms of RSS.

dont see any reason to stop judging S.A.R. Geelani.
or Roy 4 that matter.

Deepak, each and every piece of behavior you have cited is reprehensible and I am deeply ashamed that these things are happening. I share your outrage. Please do not ask me what I am going to do about it, because regretably I do not have any answers. I thank you for sharing that information with me.

We have another story by Arundhati Roy. And it is very boring. But more than the story, it is the 'insulting' letter by that appears in the article which is significant. It shows that Arundhati Roy is affected by the criticism that is showered on her.

Mr G Farukhi,

Its not as we have been won over by right wing groups ... it is that we have been pushed to the right by the left wing groups & their Islamist allies.
It is because we are in this gorgeous free crucible of secularism that we can see the perverted form of "secularism" that exists in India ...
In the US the term "free media" means capable of reporting the truth free from any pressure ... In India the term "free media" means capable of reporting lies free from any pressure ...

Therein lies the rub ... the more Indians get educated, the more caste-barriers within Hinduism break down and the more we coalesce into a Hindu identity ... and the stronger India gets ...

India is the sacred space for the SINDHUBUJ (Sikhs + Hindus + Buddhists + Jains) ... The effort to erase our identity or dilute it takes on different forms for eg. by erasing our history, by ethnically cleansing our people in Kashmir, by convering our people in Nagaland, by making us fight against one another in Punjab

This effort to erase us has to have a backlash ... History will tell us whether the seeds were sown by Indian Patriots in Silicon Valley in the USA

I completely agree with Ms Roy. As for those who insult and critisize, thats what tehy have been doing since ages. So my dear friends, next time you insult somebody of form an opinion, find the true facts before judging.Just because you have a beard does not make you a terrorist.

Mr Dharamyug, Again please go and establish the facts and come here to blabber.I was born and raised in kashmir.I went through the hell of late 80's and early ninties.The was no genocide or so called ethnic cleansing of "your" community in kashmir.All of "your" community people migrated on the behest of assurances given by Jagmohan.All those who migrated, were compensated by the Indian govenment in form of seats in professional colleges, shops in Delhi and Jammu.You do not even have a clue what happened.More muslims have been killed in Kashmir than Hindus.Where do you get your news and RSS FOX news service? or may be its your guilt or may be another one of those convoluted thoughts coming to your fanatic mind, sitting on your soft lumbar supported chair in Silicon Valley.

Mr Singh, your statement of your position is quite lucid, but unfortunately it is exclusionary. One has to start from the premise that India belongs to all Indians. For the misdeeds of 1% to 2% of Muslims, we cannot bar 120 million Muslims from our society. It is true that forging an inclusive identity is a more difficult task than saying that we too will follow the example of Pakistan and become an "us only" state (as if Pakistan is a success story!). But all the major success stories in the world today (USA, UK, Germany, Japan, and probably soon, China) have, as far as I know, inclusive and secular societies.

Ghulam Faruki,

You, and like you almost all the Muslims throughout the world, object to external pressures to bring about changes in Islam.

And at the same time, there is not much to show by way of internal changes within Islam during past 1,000 years; Islam is same old religion not willing to make any changes in line with the demands of changing times, from what it was since time immemorial.

So if external changes are un-necessarilry intrusive and the internal ones are not working- pray tell us what is the solution that will work to modernise Islam, within forseeable future for all to see.

And while you do that, pl remember- the world continues to see the religion of Islam and Muslims by your action and not by mere re-iteration that 'Islam is a religion of peace'.

Not any more!

Ashok, you are quite right about Islam's resistance to change, but outside pressure is not the solution to that problem. I see a lot of hope in changes evolving from second generation Muslims in USA and Western Europe and from the Muslim Women's movement, and such changes then spreading to Africa and Asia. Violence and war are in the scriptures of many major religions. The problem is not in the scriptures but in the literalistic mind set of those who interpret and teach the scriptures.

Ghulam Faruki,

I appreciate yr views from a safe place in USA. But only two points before I say good night to you.

1. Even you, like many other Muslims throughout the world, tend to believe in saying that 'two wrongs do make a right'. And you couldn't resist taking a dig at other religions saying that they too have a violent religious ethos.

This is exonerating the violence in Islam, condoning the inequality of women vis-a-vis men, and hence totally unacceptable.

2. What changes r u talking abt in Europe or Asia? Only yesterday, I read that in Pakistan, a so called open society in the Islamic world, one almost 60 years old man was married to a 2 years old girl as a punishment to her father who had raped this man's daughter. In Europe Van Gogh's daylight murder is not old. And today, Pakistan says kissing of Pak actor Meera in a Mahesh Bhatt's movie is un-islamic.

Where r the changes u r talking abt?

I know kissing is not a harbinger of change but then, it is not kissing but the freedom of a woman to do what she wants to do and not be condemned and ruled by religious dictat is what I am talking abt.

Or is it that the more things change, the more they remain same?

Ashok, as you say, people do terrible things to each other in this world. The changes may be slow but they are there. Polygamy is almost non-existent in India. Old style penalties for criminal offences are obsolete in the majority of the Muslim world. More and more women are getting educated and entering the professions. But we have a long way to go. Have a very good night.

Lo..Behold! The email of Chadru Prakash that "All those (kashmiris) who migrated, were compensated by the Indian govenment in form of seats in professional colleges, shops in Delhi and Jammu.You do not even have a clue what happened." !

Who created this MYTH? "Secular" media by hiding the Story of Kashmir. When this will be confronted with 1000s upon 1000s Documents, facts, it will be termed as Communal Approach. But when its white-washed by Sunni Fanatics, with the active help of Left-fundamentalist intelligentia, it will be Termed as "secularism". This is precisely the problem of Indian Secularism, which doesn't want to face the reality, and thus distort.

What's the harm in accepting that Sunni Fundamentalists did this great harm with Saudi Money, and with the help of Mullahs from Bihar/UP? Is Islam a terrorist religion, or these people are giving a bad name to a great religion?

Why so much to hide? Why are we applying "moral relativism" here? How can we face somebody, who ask: Gujrat is Bad, but NOT Kashmir?

Isn't that the dilema we are facing today? Is it NOT better to condemn EVERY ACT OF TERRORISM?

Fact is, 500,000 people were driven out, killed, maimed, raped from Kashmir by coordinated action of Sunni fundamentalists. It didn't happen ONLY in Kashmir. It happens everyday in Bangladesh, Pakistan..all Muslim Majority Countries.

How much Kashmiris were compenseted? Govt Spent more money per capita on Food for Muslim terrorists in Jail, than on Kashmiris who lost their home, families, everything!

Mr Chandu, your comments do not bear out the experiences of numerous Kashmiris I have interacted with. There is ample factual information available that is in total contrast of your response. How can you forget the loudspeakers, from the mosques, asking Hindus to leave (but leave their daughters behind) the valley – I was there and heard it myself!? How about targeted killings of so many Hindu professors and intellectuals? What about numerous rapes of Hindu women – 1500 were reported between 1989 and 1994? How about repeated assertions of JEM, LET, HUM, till 2002, that Hindus are ‘infidel’ and deserve to die? Of course, Muslims are dying now because hardly any Hindus are left.

Mr Chandu would do well to read something on this site itself: http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20021 115&fname=ajayraina&sid=1

Or better ask any Indian Army/BSF/Rastriya Rifel Jawans whoever spent few months in Kashmir. I have one uncle who spent years in Kashmir. Would like me to express the real stroy of Kashmir? How much people Hate Indians, what do they do? How they hate Indian Amry personnel driven from their religious hate?

In a way, Arundhuti Roys of this world are responsible for this mess in India. As somebody (Farukh?) already pointed it out: May be 1-2 % of Muslims were involved in atricities. Our intelligentia is paralyzed, and that's why they are called Pseduo-Secular. Is Islam a Great religion? Sure, it gave voice, dignity to millions of poor, oppressed since time immemorial. It has done great service to mankind. But does it mean, these Fanatics, thugs, terrorists are following Islam? What are we worried about? Unless these Hypocrats understand that they are digging their own grave, by this utterly disgusting "moral relativism", we will continue to loose the battle, as well as the war to the unsuspecting Hindus of India.

Apply the Logic that more Muslims are killed in Kashmir to present day Iraq. What do we see? Sunnis fighting against Americans, or fighting against Shiites who are getting killed more and more. What did we see, even in Vietnam? More Vietnamese got killed by themselves, or by Americans? Does it mean, it was Intra-Vietnamese war?

Its a pathetic, perverted logic, and derives its power from totally discredited people like Arundhuti Roy. Lets face the world bravely. what is there to Hide. Those temples were NOT destroyed by present day Indian Muslims. But by Suppressing those, giving spins like these, aren't we making the whole discourse suspect and discredited?

What is there to hide, my friends? Lets face the brave world, analyse, discuss it together, understand each others follies, and move on. That will have 1000 times Greater, meaningful impact than Crocodile-tears like this one from Arundhuti Roy! Nobody is perfect in this world. But that doesn't mean, we will NOT discuss imperfectness, that too selectively!

"Lets face the brave world, analyse, discuss it together, understand each others follies, and move on."

Minu Chatterji, you have spoken the truth. Thanks.

Minu and Deepak,
And to all those who think I have distorted the facts:

The article on this web site was written by Ajay Raina, a kashmiri pandit who may or may not have the presented the whole story with a slight bias.As for you Uncle Ms Minu, he has been told to fight this enemy and he certainly will have biased story to tell after all he would have been the one being fired upon.Look ! point here is , the way people distort facts to reflect their bias. This occurs on the both sides of the spectrum.I see no difference in fanaticism of the people here and islamic fanatics. Every body is spiting poison against each other. It is only when you put aside your personal or religious bias,caused by your upbringing or cultural narrow mindedness, and try to think objectively, read not what you want to or agree with but also what you dont.It is only then you will find that truth.I guess we have a long way to go....

" It is only when you put aside your personal or religious bias,caused by your upbringing or cultural narrow mindedness, and try to think objectively, read not what you want to or agree with but also what you dont."

So Chandu, you sound so sweet and reasonable, so tell me why you lied with a bare face about Kashmiri pundits getting compensation. They have not been paid a single penny by any govt. so far while they rot in their internment camps in New Delhi. Bare-faced liars like you deserve all the poisono that is spit on them. Have a nice day, and ask your terrorist friends to call you on a pay phone instead of your cell phone.

"read not what you want to or agree with but also what you dont."

Chandu's lovely little prose here seems to say that all "facts" like his "fact" that Kashmiri pundits have been aadequately compenstated, have to be treated at par with REAL facts. Guess what, chandu, you cannot convince people that they have to treat your lie at par with known facts, which can be verified by paying a visit to a Kashmiri pundit refugee camp.

Chandu wrote: " Ajay Raina, a kashmiri pandit who may or may not have the presented the whole story with a slight bias.As for you Uncle Ms Minu, he has been told to fight this enemy and he certainly will have biased story to tell after all he would have been the one being fired upon....It is only when you put aside your personal or religious bias,caused by your upbringing or cultural narrow mindedness, and try to think objectively, read not what you want to or agree with but also what you dont."

So, Ajay Raina is biased, my Uncle (Indian Army officer) is Biased..but Arundhuti Roys, Romila Thapars are NOT. Is that you want to say? If that, then nobody can complain:)) See the pathetic "moral relativism" !

However, there are 1000s of people like my uncle, who sacrifice their life, their family, their happiness to keep this "India" Intact. And on a purely (il)logical plane, we are discrediting them as "biased". Sure, he is biased, but to keep the Country intact. This is classic anarchism, de-la Arundhuti Style. Isn't it?

The Bigger question is: we are creating a democracy, discourse, where Arundhuti Roys can write about Pains, anguishes one Kashmiri Muslim (SAR Geelani) in Delhi, with flowing prose, from Deep-inside their heart. But aren't there 500,000 Stories of similar Kind which can be derived from Kashmir? Why even ONLY Kashmiri Pandits. What about Shiites undergoing mis-treatment in kargil Areas. Or Buddhists in Ladakh?

This is the discourse which we are told is "secular", "scientific", "democratic" and what not. Its anything but those. Its a pathetic Sunni-pampering discourse.

And lo..Behold. This poor chap, Raina, who made an excellent Movie on Kashmiris, and their plight. But the Film-fraternity (leading lights whose name we hear everyday) did everything to stop it from being shown in FIlm festivals. It happened last week, in Calcutta as well. But there were no outrage from Arundhuti Roy!

Remember Aijaz Ahmed, leading marxist thinker? he wrote an article which appeared in Frontline, "Socialist World" last year, where he actually gave certificate to none-other than Bin-Laden. The issue was: Bombings, killings of Shiites in Post-Saddam Iraq, even in Holy Places like Najaf/Karbala. Aijaz Ahmed wrote: These cannot be done by laden because he is "too religious". What do we see today? Its Sunnis using terrorism against Shiites, including their holy-places. Al-Queda has funded, contributed to Shiite Killing/devastation everywhere, be it in Pakistan, Iraq..

So, Arundhuti Roy is NOT alone in this game. A Select group of people, take the name of Free-Speech, democracy, minority rights, but actually does the opposite!

Ms. Arundhuti Roy: I can send you 500,000 Stories from Kashmir alone like this SAR Geelani Episode. Would you please write those. They are also innocent like Geelani, but they are NOT SUNNI. They are Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Shiites from Kashmir. Would you please write about them?

Arjun,
Kashmiri pandits get a monthly stipend of 2500 from the government of India. Their children got addmision in top colleges - Stevens in Delhi and Francis in Bombay under a special refugee quota, most of them, not all I must admit have currently sold their homes in Kashmir through agents at soaring prices,and what about the shops given to Pundits in Delhi which they have sold at a profit and returned to refugee camps? Talk about Refugee camps, In Jammu, there were more cases of rapes of kashmiri pandits girls by local community of which majority is hindu,than in kashmir itself.Every body knows , but nobody reports.All am saying is, in a conflict both sides suffer. You do not have to beat your chests,cry and exaggerate. Everybody suffered Muslims, Hindus alike. Lets try not to blame somebody (sunnis- Ms Minu) which is so easy than try and find what actually happened. As I said before, we have a long long way to go.

By the way Ms Minu I do not have any thing against your Uncle I respect people who fight for their country. Please I beg you all to leave your personal bias (in case of Arjun Matoo - A Kashmiri I am guessing) and religious bias ( in your case Ms Minu) and try inculcate objective thinking.

Over and out...

Chandu wrote: "In Jammu, there were more cases of rapes of kashmiri pandits girls by local community of which majority is hindu,than in Kashmir itself." And then " try inculcate objective thinking.."

Pure and Simple Sunni Rants which we all are tired of. And this is Objectivity! Feeding Jihadi discourse under Pseduo Name which is evident when one writes: ''..your Uncle I respect people who fight for their country.."

No Indian, be Hindu, Muslim, Sikh..whatever their religion is, will EVER Write like this. And sure, the world is watching Sunni terrorism, and taking care of it. I sincerely hope, people like Arundhuti Roy see their perilious conclusions drawn from their article (More Muslims are geiing killed in kashmir was her logic in another piece) and make necessary corrections.

Your Articles, discourses are being used by these Sunni fanatics: Don't you see Ms Roy?

I am trying to understand why there is so much divergence in the way people perceive Arundhati Roy's article on the Geelani episode. What are the main bones of contention? Are there lies deliberately told, that is falsehoods presented as facts? If so, which ones. Are there viewpoints or opinions discussed which are far too radical or too objectionable, or are they within the wide range of theorizing permitted in a democratic society? Which of her "takes" can be considered to be unacceptable? Please bear with me if my questions sound too naive, but I feel that they do merit a serious discussion.

"Everybody suffered Muslims, Hindus alike. Lets try not to blame somebody .."

How Sweet! Lets also NOT blame Hitler, because germany was devastated. Or Japan, because it was Nuked? Why it was started in the first place? Thinking, Sunnis could pull it off with Arab Money, and doctrine of Jihad? Isn't the same persecution happening in other parts of kashmir as well, against Shiites, Agha-Khan followers? You simply cannot hide today, Mr. Chandu. There are too much of Info available.

"All am saying is, in a conflict both sides suffer.."

Very bad, isn't it? How long will this Sunni agenda will be pursued at the cost of others? I am sure, Arundhuti Roys of the world will make necessary correction. As their very existance will be at stake. She will simply cease to exist, should a Sunni-powered govt comes to India, god forbid ever! Mahesh Bhatt is understanding that today, I guess, when her Heroine is fined for a Kiss. All Khans of Bollywood would be out-of business, should a taliban comes in India, ever.

Ghulam Faruki,

"Ashok, as you say, people do terrible things to each other in this world. The changes may be slow but they are there. Polygamy is almost non-existent in India. Old style penalties for criminal offences are obsolete in the majority of the Muslim world. More and more women are getting educated and entering the professions. But we have a long way to go"

Faruki, it is clear that you hv not been to the real Islamic world and countries like Saudi Arabia where hands are stll being amputated and beheading are still taking place. So much for changes!

And women slowly getting their rights- are u smoking something? They can't even drive a car showing their nail-polish while their husbands are having fun in Hyderabad and Europe- Polygamy????

Polygamy is alive n kicking in the whole of Muslim world and Talaq by SMS or e-mail is still acceptable.

What changes r u talking abt, brother Faruki?

If changes are taking place in India, not much credit goes to the Muslims but the combined liberating influence of Hindus, Christians and Sikhs which has made the Muslims realise the futility and hypocrisy of chaining their own women to the orthodoxy. And even then, Muslims are the lowest in terms of development and growth indexes.

But then, isn't it so convenient to blame Hindus and Khaki Knickerwallahs for that?

Wake up!!!

Ashok, Saudi Arabia is the worst possible example one could pick. But you see movement in Turkey and Iraq, where women vote and can drive a car, women have occupied positions of leadership in Indonesia, Bangladesh and Pakistan and there are several Muslim women doctors and lawyers in our subcontinent. Admittedly the progress is too too slow for my taste, but we do not want to fall in the trap of picking only the worst examples when looking at some one else's community, and picking the best when looking at one's own.

Chandu Prakash (!!) writes, “Kashmiri pandits get a monthly stipend of 2500 from the government of India…” So it is OK to be hounded out of one’s house, land as long as they are compensated. In fact it must be considered as advantageous as not only a place in refugee camp they seem to have also cornered for themselves a “stipend” too. And holy Toledo, some of them are making extra bit on the side.

I would like to ask that how come these displaced people not evoke same sentiments in Arundhati and company on basis of which they stalled the Sardar Sarovar Project when the tribals were being relocated and mind you not being ghettoised. It is true that if the interest of tribals had not attracted such high profile attention, corrupt officers and locals would have cheated them of their fair share.

But the deafening silence of these luminaries in face of this human tragedy unfolding itself over last fifteen years, casts doubts about their good intentions. Arundhati has some explaining to do as she is such a prolific writer with views on anything and everything, experts be damned. But the lady chooses well and only chooses those issues that will ensure her publicity. It is clear that the tribals presented better photo opportunities and recognition from her western beneficiaries where her real market lies. Also taking up kashmiri hindus cause would bring her at cross purpose with her other rabble rousers.

We need to ask how and when this displaced populace will get to return HOME. How many more generations of Indians will pay for the (mis)deeds of egotist Nehru?

What Chandu Prakash has to say is “I guess we have a long way to go....” You are right. But it is you who needs to do the going.


This pathogenic liar Chandu Prakash claims that the Pandits sold their properties at profit. To borrow a quote from RAJESH, “Even a child with down’s syndrome” would know that fleeing pandits would not have the bargaining power. Even if they did manage to sell at very high rate then how did the poor Kashmiris who bought the properties afford it in first place. Do read Raina’s article in Central Chronicle for answer. And you say nothing about the “grabbed” properties.

It is ridiculous how some people expose their double standards (and what not) in these columns by lauding Arundhati for the causes she stands for –which are the tribals and jhuggis in Mumbai among other things. And they turn around and claim that pundits have been adequately compensated! But that you see is ‘objective thinking’ Chandu claims!!

Ghulam Faruki,

I have been reading the discussion between Muslims and Hindus on this forum and after observing for many years, I can safely condense the course of this debate, based on many such debates, on the following lines:

1. All Sweet Reasonableness Mode: Here Muslims are in the ‘Islam is a religion of peace’ mode and wish to sound all reasonable, logical, rational and sweet. This is generally from those living in the safety of a minority, because the minute Muslims r in majority- there is a cataclysmic change and all concepts of democracy, human rights and secularism evaporate in thin air.

2. Denial Mode: When Muslims r challenged by facts of history and the violent ethos of Islam, Osama, Fidayeen culture, the lack of equality between men n women n so on even now, they resort to the dictum- deny, deny and deny. There r many manifestations of this- ‘no, it is Hindu/ Christian/ Khaki Knickerwallah conspiracy to malign the noble religion of Islam and nice Muslims’- is the commonest.

3. Defensive/Confrontation Mode: Here the Muslims take a stand that "it is not Islam alone but all the other religions also who have these problems. And don’t u badger us for we r doing it on our own. It is slow but happening- so take a walk!"

4. Refusal Mode: When confronted with the rigid dictates of Sharia, fundamentalist Mullahs and Holy Quran- the helplessness of educated Muslims is translated into defiance and rage, which translates into- ‘so what, we r like that only! Do whatever you like’ or finally- ‘Islam is in danger and any attempt to bring changes will be construed as an attack on Islam’. Period.

We will talk abt Turkey n Malaysia later.

In the meanwhile, in which of this stages/mode mentioned above are you?

Ashok, it is easy to put people in pigeonholes, but I do not understand what your point is. Are you saying that Islam will never undergo reform? Are you saying that as a religion it is finished? Neither you nor I know how historical forces will unfold. There is no question that Islam has to adapt to the times. But you surely know how huge a task it is to get over a billion people spread over 50 countries to accept and to adapt to such changes. There are in fact several young liberal Muslim thinkers in US, Europe, Egypt and India who are pushing for changes, and building a following.

"Kashmiri pandits get a monthly stipend of 2500 from the government of India. Their children got addmision in top colleges - Stevens in Delhi and Francis in Bombay under a special refugee quota, most of them, not all I must admit have currently sold their homes in Kashmir through agents at soaring prices,"

Well, Chandu Prakash, I was wondering why you forgot to mention the little fact that the pandits did not have an option as their muslim neighhbours had already taken over their property. Prime property around srinagar that too.

"alk about Refugee camps, In Jammu, there were more cases of rapes of kashmiri pandits girls by local community of which majority is hindu,than in kashmir itself.Every body knows , but nobody reports.All am saying is, in a conflict both sides suffer. You do not have to beat your chests,cry and exaggerate. "

You are what is known in more polite company as a sphincter. How dare you speak so lightly of the ethnic cleansing of the kashmiri pundits and others by the jihadi types in Kashmir. Would you speak so lightly if it happened to your sister or a member of you family. You are the typical "secular" hypocrite who would be wailing and moaning about gujarat but then say "claims are exagerrated" about the kashmiri pundits. Do people like you have no shame?

Anyway, to get back onto topic, there is the very real possibility that SAR Geelani knew about the parliament attack, since he was close to the terrorists who attacked parliament. That itself is crime enough for him to be a target of perennial surveillance.

Why not put Arundhati Roy in Jail? She causes a lot of heartburn and makes people suffer because of her silly thoughts.
In any case, she and her democratic friends have accused each and every government department in India of being anti-something (add anything in place of something). So, its not a bad idea to put her in jail instead of Mr. Geelani or any other terrorist.

kashmiri pandits have been adequately compensated. Its become a their habbit to use evey media and make their problems look larger than life. In a country where people are dying of hunger (melghat) there is no need to pay any attention to the rants of pandits. There are other important things that need attention in the country.

Chandu Prakash, I noted your response to Dharamyug. You say "All the Kashmiri Pandit community migrated at the behest of Jagmohan." Do you seriously think this is possible. Please give a break to your investigative mind. Have you forgotten Chattisginghpora where 52 Sikhs were killed on the eve of Bill Clinton's visit. Lets blame Jagmohan for that. Where is your family Chandu Prakask -- I am sure they must not be in Kashmir. So did Jagmohan force you too. You say you survived the hell of late 80's and early nineties. Who created the hell. Was it jagmohan again?

Asok

Please go through my answers to the points raised by you.

1.Word Islam itself means peace. In a nutshell Islam is nothing but submission to the will of God as is made known to us through Prophets like, Jesus, Moses, Muhammad and possibly those prophets who had come to India. Holy Quran have itself stated that there is no coercion in religion. If people go against the scriptural dictates and does unacceptable actions you cant hold Islam responsible for the same. Yes, Islam does advocate war on evil, as Krishna did to Arjun, but there are strict guidelines to be followed, under no circumstance can innocents be targeted.

2. Why single out Islam. Was it Muslims who annihilated red Indians? Were we involved in Holocaust? What about Hiroshima Naga saki & Vietnam? Remember what Stalin did in the name of Communism and Modi did in the name of Hiindutva. Evil people will always do evil deeds. For their actions they will find excuses in Religions and ideologies that they think will suit them.

3. I am not aware of any inherent problem in Islam and I do not know about other religions.

4. There are timeless values that are dictated by Holy Quran and those values need to be adhered to. However, there is also provision for Ijithihad, that is timely interpretation based on research, if Muslims are unwilling to do that blame them and not Islam.

Regards

It is pathetic that this lady's anti-national write ups are consistently published in Outlook. Her poetic diatribe against the country is an affront to the sensibilities to the common man. It is time that people shun her write ups and those who facilitate these seditious writings. If at all Outlook has got any respect for its readers, I request to stop these kinds of anti national fiction in your magazine.

O yeah... pandits have been adequately compensated. If they would have left their women behind as dircted by the Islamic terrorists, they might have been compensated better.

Which madarssah did you go to Rajesh(a.k.a Laden)?

so now jehadis funded by saudi money are taking up fake indian names and crowding up this board!!

Shakeel n Ghulam Faruki,

Leave aside this accuser-accused positions n let’s raise some basic questions:

1. If ‘Islam is a religion of peace’, why it has NEVER been at peace with itself and/or with ANY other religion in the world?

2. ‘Holy Quran has itself stated that there is no coercion in religion’. So what then is the concept of Kafirs and why Quran sanctions to convert them to Islam or kill them?

3. ‘If people go against the scriptural dictates and does unacceptable actions you cant hold Islam responsible for the same’. True- but why then the Muslim world makes such people who go against the scripture heroes n martyrs?

4. ‘under no circumstance can innocents be targeted’- nice, but have we seen any Muslim openly condemning those who kill innocent people- be it in Twin Tower, Spain or Kashmir? And please- no justifications/excuse by using ‘Evil US, Israel and others’ because two wrongs do not make one right.

5. ‘Why single out Islam. Was it Muslims who annihilated red Indians? Were we involved in Holocaust? What about Hiroshima Naga saki & Vietnam? Remember what Stalin did in the name of Communism and Modi did in the name of Hiindutva.’ But we Hindus, Christians n Sikhs do criticize them. But, it is the silent majority of Muslims who revel in denial, defensive n self-righteous mode on these atrocities committed by Muslims that makes us wonder.

6. ‘I am not aware of any inherent problem in Islam and I do not know about other religions.” Sad that the glaring oppression and inequality of women sanctioned by Islam does not touch yr hearts!

7. ‘There are timeless values that are dictated by Holy Quran and those values need to be adhered to. However, there is also provision for Ijithihad, that is timely interpretation based on research, if Muslims are unwilling to do that blame them and not Islam.’ Thank you for small mercies- for sparing the usual suspects (Hindus, Christians n Jews).

8. Who is stereotyping Muslims, Faruk? You search yr heart. U reject education, family planning, social/family reforms n then ask innocently ‘Are you saying that Islam will never undergo reform?’ U tell me?

9. ‘Are you saying that as a religion it is finished?’ NO. Never.

10. But, where r the changes/adaptations with changing times in Muslim societies throughout the world during last 100 years? Pl enlighten us, willya?

"kashmiri pandits have been adequately compensated. Its become a their habbit to use evey media and make their problems look larger than life."

You mean, unlike the sunni muslims and saudi-influenced muslims who do exactly that, even when their "problems" are all self-inflicted? You are some pakistani hiding behind an Indian name, or you are one of the Indian jihadi thugs like SAR Geelani who go around trying to create public sympathy for getting around the law, even when they have colluded with terrorists that tried to cause mayhem and bloodshed in the Indian parliament --- considered an act of war in most other countries.

" In a country where people are dying of hunger (melghat) there is no need to pay any attention to the rants of pandits. "

Yes, instead we should all pay attention to lying scum like you who pooh-pooh the ethnic cleansing of hindu minorities by the muslim majority in Kashmir. The real monsters in India are those like you, who push around the jihadi agenda under the cover of your non-existent secularism.

Ashok, One can come up with such a list of rants against any religion, but I won't, because such lists are always products of selective memory, and all they do is to cause others to come up with counter lists, and this process could go on for ever. With fires raging in Kashmir, Gujerat and Nagaland, this is the time to be dousing the fires rather than pointing fingers at each others' religion. I wish you well.

For the very last time to set the records straight, I was a born hindu and will remain one till my death.I have been called sunni fundamentalist, friend of a terrorist and a what not one this chat. It is this mentality of "if you are not one of us then you of them" will not take to you far. Open up your mind you people, think think hard. Just because you father or somebody told you hindus/ muslims are bad , does not make every hindu or a muslim bad.STOP STEREOTYPING !!!
Get rid of your cultural taboos and stigmas which make you so naive and myopic that you cannot even think a furlong beyond your front door. Please! some of you are living abroad. Is this the type of hatred you are going to give to your kids? Kids who are going to grow up with a muslim, hindu, jew or christian. I am telling you folks, you kids one day will tell you straight on your face that you are and were a Hypocrite.

Chandu writes:
"Open up your mind you people, think think hard. Just because you father or somebody told you hindus/ muslims are bad , does not make every hindu or a muslim bad."

For a scumbag who just pooh-poohed the ethnic cleansing in Kashmir, poured scorn on the sufferings of pundits, and lied about the status of the hindu refugees from Kashmir, you certainly have the temerity to talk about "opening the mind".

"Get rid of your cultural taboos and stigmas which make you so naive and myopic that you cannot even think a furlong beyond your front door. "

The sphincters of the world with such attitudes, who lie about the sufferings of Indian non muslims , probably with the "good intention" of being politically correct, must understand that their double standards on "communal harmony" and "secularism", which wink at muslim communalism and hatred and bigotry, while screaming hoarse about hindu communalism, will not be tolerated by anyone who has a conscience and a sense of fairness and justice --- obviously the sphincters of the world, and the chandu prakashes of the world are not part of this crowd that demands fairness and has an appetite for the truth, however ugly it may be.

"Is this the type of hatred you are going to give to your kids? Kids who are going to grow up with a muslim, hindu, jew or christian."

What about the kids who get blown up or shot in the next act of terror in India by islamic bigots and fundamentalists of SAR Geelani's kind and Madani of Al Umma, and the hate-mongering jihadi bigots in the SIMI? What do you think they will be telling their parents?



" I am telling you folks, you kids one day will tell you straight on your face that you are and were a Hypocrite. "

That's a laugh. If there is anyone who will be accused of hypocrisy, it will be the likes of you, make no mistake about that.

"One can come up with such a list of rants against any religion, but I won't, because such lists are always products of selective memory, and all they do is to cause others to come up with counter lists, and this process could go on for ever. "

Is that so, let us see you list without a selective memory, all the acts of terror committed by hindu. christian, and jewish groups since 1950. I will then print out, without a selective memory, all the riots and the mayhem caused by muslim groups since then. Sound fair enough to you?

That should prove whether your "all religions are as bad as islam" is a statement of fact or the typical excuses thrown out by muslims who are confronted by the fact that their religion officially sanctions mayhem and murder of non muslims and secular muslims who want to live in peace with everyone.

Islam needs to be reformed by muslims to be a kinder, gentler version of itself, like the version practised by the sufis, shias, ahmeddiyas, and others. EXCEPT the sunni muslims, who are the global terrorists giving a bad name to all muslims, have been ethnically cleansing the sufis, ahmeddiyas, shias, and other more tolerant and secular-oriented strains of islam. Sunni muslims, the wahabbis and the deobandis, can no longer hide behind the "islam is under threat" excuse when they are told to face up to the nature of their version of islam.

Chandu wrote:
"For the very last time to set the records straight, I was a born hindu and will remain one till my death."

That does not give you the license to pooh-pooh the sufferings of hindus, do you understand? So what if you claim to be a hindu, most of the communists who hate hinduism were born hindus, and have no qualms about denigrating hinduism.

"I have been called sunni fundamentalist, friend of a terrorist and a what not one this chat. "

That is because you seem to support those bigoted attitudes exhibited by the average sunni fundamentalist...if the shoe fits...

"I have been called sunni fundamentalist.." --Chandru

It hardly matters whether one really is Sunni Terrorist by religious conviction. Or by "moral relativism". Some one spoke about Aijaz Ahmed, a "most respected marxist idealogue". But even a Aijaz Ahmed give certificates to a Bin-Laden & his team. "Bin-Laden is too religious to organize bombings in Shiite religious paces", that's how he wrote in an article, which was cover story in "Socialist International", a standard magazine.

My contention is: we are worshipping false Gods like Aijaz Ahmed and Arundhuti Roys and so many others. The world knows what Bin-Laden & his group is, how they treated non-Sunnis, including non-Sunni Muslims. Even in Kashmir under Pakistan Control how Shiites, others were butchered.

Why their Brain freezes, when it comes to Sunni terrorism? The world knows what's the source of Batthist Idealogy, isn't it? Sunni Fundamentalism. These idealogues are Singularly responsible for death, destruction in Kashmir. The root of Kashmir Cleansing didn't start by pakistan. It was started by Sunni Wahabism, Saudi-FUnded religious Schools between 1960s-1980s. We are yet to comprehend the full scale of it. It was manned by Mullahs from Uttar Pradesh and Bihar. Those teachers didn't come from Pakistan/Saudi Arabia. We closed our eyes, allowed them to flourish, and now we have it. Does a Shiite, follower of Aga Khan, Hindus/Buddhists have equal rights as Sunni Muslims or not?

I know atleast 10 Kurdish people who cried in Joy when Iraq was invaded, Saddam was toppled. They are also Muslim. They are also Sunni. Why they were killed, raped, maimed, driven out from their homes in Norther Iraq? Why? Why a Arundhuti Roy, Aijaz Ahmed never writes about the plight of these Kurdish People?

Kurdhish people had endured what Hindus/Buddhists endured in Kashmir. Kurds are Sunni as well. So, even Sunni fundamentalkism needs to be changed to Sunni Arab Fundamentalism and its spawn offs: like Madrassas, terrorists.

So, like the Animal-Farm (orwell), some people are more equal than others. Indian Democracy, free-speech, Liberty, Secularism, the whole discourse is penetrated, used to fulfil the goal of Sunni Terrorists, and fundamentalists. Its a fact of life. And we have to pay a heavy price for that. We already are paying with our bloods.

Ghulam Saheb

seems like you are much capable of differentiating between facts and fiction.
I am trying to understand why there is so much divergence in the way people perceive Arundhati Roy's article on the Geelani episode. What are the main bones of contention?
The divissiveness is there becuase people like A. Roy are feeding on it. Ever S. Anand's hate propaganda ?

Are there lies deliberately told, that is falsehoods presented as facts? If so, which ones.

-->Absolutely. Arundhati Roy is lying through the teeth. She claims to have received an email reacting to her article even before her articel was published.

Are there viewpoints or opinions discussed which are far too radical or too objectionable, or are they within the wide range of theorizing permitted in a democratic society?
--> She is not only radical. She actively supports fragmentation of India, support armed conflict within India. She is a Marxist ANARCHIST.
She claims to represent tribal and somehow she is the one who has a house in tribal land ? Whom is she trying to fool ?


Which of her "takes" can be considered to be unacceptable? Please bear with me if my questions sound too naive, but I feel that they do merit a serious discussion.

--> Her questions are presented in beutiful prose, and assume that readers are ignorant of her record. She has lied on more than one occassion while 'reporting' about Gujrat. Outlook lends space to her because Outlook share the BALKANIZATION OF INDIA agenda with her. Her assertions and questions are leading and purposefully present a picture of a state which is actively supporting persecution of Kashmiri muslims. Reality is exectly opposite. India is giving hugh financial support to J&K. J&K has least % ratio of poverty among ALL the indian states, BIHAR included.

And how our Media reacts to these? They simply hide. But in today's Google-ed world, its becoming very very problemetic for them. Because you cannot stop every piece of information.

Being from Bengal and a liberal Hindu family, my heart boils when I see somebody throwing stone at a Shiite procession taken out in Muhharram. We grew up reading "Bishad Sindhu" written by Mir Mussharaf Hussain, a leading bengali Writer on late 19th Century. The Story of Karbala, Hussan-Hussain, their martyardom is supreme story of sacrifice, human values.

But what we see in Lucknow, and lots of other places in India today? These Processions are pelted stones? By whom? SUNNIS, who else. Has a Aijaz Ahmed, Arundhuti Roy ever wrote on that? Have we condemned that? Nope.

Instead, we ban those processions, and close our eyes thinking, everything is resolved now. Who has own this battle? We simply surrendered to Sunni Fundamentalism. But in the present discourse, that's treated as a "victory" for secularism. Its funny, isn't it? Will it work? It will NEVER work. Even a Child can understand that.

Sorry for Typo:

Instead, we ban those processions, and close our eyes thinking, everything is resolved now. Who has won this battle? We simply surrendered to Sunni Fundamentalism. But in the present discourse, that's treated as a "victory" for secularism. Its funny, isn't it? Will it work? It will NEVER work. Even a Child can understand that.

We are buying peace with Sunni Fundamentalists, by surrendering Liberty, Freedom, religious rights, free-speech....And emboldening them in the process. The most painful part is: I haven't seen a SINGLE article, in any Newspaper (I follow Bengali & Engalih newspapers, magazines closely), which has condemned this stone pelting in Lucknow.

Its insane.

"Please! some of you are living abroad...."

Arundhuti Roys of this world are Blind, and they are making gullible supporters like you blinder.

These people, whom Ms Roy wrote against, are designed, programmed, traineed in factories what we call "Indian Secular Education". These people were NOT created in US. They, being educated enough, tried to make a living from oppurtunities created by globalization. All of these people Stuudied the history Books written by Romila Thapar.

Bangalore, India's High-Tech Capital, in deep south has both member of Parliament from Hindu Right.

Before advent of Gandhi, Indian National Congress was effectively controlled by Hindu Nationalists. Because in Cities, small towns they were always supporters of these nationalists.

As I wrote before: Look at how we are handling the Stone-throwing at a Shiite procession in Lucknow. If it were a secular, democrati country, the following things should be done:

(1) In a short term scale, call all religious leaders from Lucknow, and tell them its Shiites rights to take out procession. Those who object, try to obstruct will be ruthlessly handled by police
(2) Look into who are instigating these feelings of hatred. Shutdown those Madrassas.
(3) Look at who are financing those madrassas. Shutdown those charities.
(4) Apply the same logic across all parts of the country, all religions, all groups.

There must not be any ifs and buts. Everybody, Every majority, minority MUST BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE TO ONE LAW APPLICABLE TO ALL. Appeasement to Sunni Fundamentalists is surrender to them which will destroy this country.

I am sure Ms. Roy is aware of the case pending in the supreme court. I

Does Ms. Roy also consider how much demanding the thankless job of a policeman/soldier must be. They are not fat cats prowling around for new victims.

If they are in Kashmir or N-East and doing whatever they are doing, it is because democratically elected governments have asked them to do so.

Take a break, see the view from the other side also.

Cynic_Lerner, thank you for trying to address the questions I had raised about Ms Roy's article.

On my question as to whether there were any lies in her article, the only response you gave was that the E-mail at the end of her article was fake. But that E-mail was clearly meant to be a parody or a caricature of the responses that she fully expected from her American critics, and as it turns out, she was not wrong in her expectation.

Regarding the question whether any viewpoints expressed in the article were too radical or objectionable, you talked of her philosophy or her politics, but did not address yourself to anything that was said in the article.

On the question of whether her article contained any "takes" that would generally be considered to be unacceptable, you mention her making certain statements or taking certain positions on Gujerat, but you do not refer to anything in the article at all.

So the question that remains is : are we criticizing this particular article, or are we angry at her politics and her previous participation in unpopular causes?

"But that E-mail was clearly meant to be a parody or a caricature of the responses that she fully expected from her American critics, and as it turns out, she was not wrong in her expectation."

Now, now, her article DOES NOT mention that the email was a caricature. Here is what is stated by Arundhati Roy:

"That's it from me folks. 'Bye now. Let the insults roll. Oh look! Here's one already..."

That says she received the email, and in fact, a lot of the readers here BELIEVE that this email was real, and nowhere in AR's article does it state that this email is a work of AR's imagination.

Secondly, what makes her think that there is no one in India that shares these views?

Ghulam Faruqi:
"So the question that remains is : are we criticizing this particular article, or are we angry at her politics and her previous participation in unpopular causes?"

Nice one. I KNOW you read the point-by-point rebuttal to Ms. Roy's article by myself and others earlier on, so the question is why do you need to spin the situation now as, "these people are all AR haters and don't necessarily have anything against this article". Is that your game?

I can and will repost those articles if you insist that there are no legitimate criticisms against this article, as you imply above.

Discourse on "Indian Patriot" and Eric Hobsbawm

"But that E-mail was clearly meant to be a parody or a caricature of the responses that she fully expected from her American critics, and as it turns out, she was not wrong in her expectation..."

Farukhi: Arundhiti Roys, Romila Thapars of Indian Ultra left world has long resented the fact that: their own creation, the educated, economically advanced section of Indian people vehemently oppose their positions. Its NOT limited to those Indians who work in West, its EQUALLY TRUE for people from Bangalore (india's High-Tech capital), Bombay (Financial Capital), or Calcutta (Erstwhile Cultural Capital before Communists destroyed it), Chennai etc...

Ms Thapar elaborately spoke against these people. I think, if you search Outlook by Author, you will find some of those written by ms Thapar herself.

The question remains: Why her own creation (in case of ms Thapar), or Most anglicalised group (in case of Ms Roy), take so opposite and strong position against them.

Unless Arundhuti Roys, Ms Thapars Understand this, the problem will NOT be solved.

One Clue: They should read Marxist historians like Eric Hobsbawm very closely. Some people learn, But NOT our Marxists. They are so colonized, they are to be prodded at every Etep.

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp? fodname=20041227&fname=Hobsbawm+%28F%29&sid=1

Discourse on "Indian Patriot"

Another interesting thing is: these "Indian patriots" of ms Roy/Ms Thapar are NOT religious zealots. Most of them are NOT even religious at all: like rituals, going to the temples regularly. They put maximum thrust on Education, and spend their fortune for pursuing "westernised" Education. They have NOT located Women as per the "Manu-Samhita". Most, if NOT all of them, despise Casteism.

What who are these people? These are religious zealots/ Modernists?

This is THE QUESTION Which Unsettles Ms Roys/Thapars of India. Does it ring any bell? For details, Please read "Ramjanmabhumi movement and fear of the Self", by Achyut Yagnik, Ashis Nandy. It will be crystal clear what is going on here in India, its people. And why Ms Roys are loosing the battle.

While we all despise terrorists, extrapolating that to a general indictment of Sunnis is a big stretch. Sunnis constitute 85 % of world's Muslims, which means there are almost a billion Sunni Muslims in the world. Their proportion in India is roughly the same. They cannot all be terrorists. While a few thousand of them are engaged in terrorist activities, it is sad to see several thousand others cheering their acts or being sympathetic to them. It is not likely however that such sympathies have religious roots. They are more likely to be based on geopolitical considerations, such as the Palestinian issue, or the presence of American military bases in Saudi Arabia.

Sunnis, being by far the largest or the parent group among Muslims, have, like other religions, been very intolerant of any break-away groups, and despicable atrocities commited by the Sunnis on the break-away Muslim groups are often financed by the Saudi-Wahabi resources. That is why I keep saying that the issues that the Muslims have to deal with are huge.

Arun, if specific criticisms of the article were posted, I am sorry that I missed them.

Un-ending discourse on "Indian Patriot"!


Good anslysis Bhaskar..Good stuff.

I would like to add the followings.

These Educated, Economically upward Indians are NOT only non-religious, they actually have total presense in Indian discourse today. Consider these: national Security, Development, Scientific rationality --these has now a hegemonic presence amongst politically exposed Indians. What we see today, in this Rants section, is also an indication. People overwhelmingly oppose those ideas, which go against these very ideas which are NOT religious, but Statist, and thus Secular.

Farukhi: This Article by ms Arundhuti Roy is failing that Golden test.

(1) It deals with a Kashmiri person, who has atleast some demonstrated link with terrorists who attacked the very temple of Indian Democracy. Whether that's sufficient for conviction or not, its another matter altogether.

(2) This person (SAR Geelani), chose to wear a hat, Kashmiri Separatist, even after his "release" by Delhi High Court. This is pointed out by even an eminent columnist which appeared in the Hindu, by any standard a very liberal (rather marxist newspaper).

(3) The same opposition would have come if, (suppose) DMK, a Dravidian party now burns Indian National Flag/COnstitution, or heap Insults to Ram as a symbol of Aryan and upper caste domination, in the roads of Chennai. Remember, these entities like, DMK etc, actually did that, not so long ago.

(4) Such "compromise" with National honour and national politics are now seen as UNFORGIVABLE SINS and any Government tolerating such "ANTI-INDIAN" Acts are NOT going to find it easy.

(are you following BJP's objection to recent Kashmir Events? They are NOT objecting to Bus, but rather travel WITHOUT PASSPORT, which may (maynot) harm the national Security).

(5) Lastly, but not the least, everybody understands that these Ultra-left like Ms Arundhuti Roys are suffering from "moral relativism". They never objected, or raised a single voice to plight of 500,000 Kashmiris who were driven out. How ethical is that?

So? We now have a explosive Mix, where even slight deviation from GOLD-STANDARDS (National Security, Development, Pampering of Minorities in a secular State.....) are protested vehemently. I think, these ideas are secular, and Hindu nationalism is always a illegitimate child of modernity.

That's why they beat Ms Roys/Ms Thapars in their own Game. Its not 1955, when Hindu Nationalists objected to modernization of Hindu Personal laws. Recently, many steps were taken to provide equal justice to women, and to the best of my knowldge, nobody, even Togadia objected to empowerment of women.

Its a very facinating story. Please read that book Bhaskar suggested. Its a Good one, and help us understand the dilemas Arundhuti Roys facing today.

Ghulam Faruqi,

Apologies for the rant; I thought you had read it. It starts at page 20 of 28 (X-8 pages in case the number of pages increases when you read this) and then read backwards since this site diplays all the posts in reverse order of receipt.

Bhaskar, you say that a vast majority of Indian intelligentia disagree with the views of Roy and Thapar. But you surely do not mean to imply that dissident minority opinions should not be allowed in journals devoted to free expression of opinions.

Ghulam wrote:
" you say that a vast majority of Indian intelligentia disagree with the views of Roy and Thapar. But you surely do not mean to imply that dissident minority opinions should not be allowed in journals devoted to free expression of opinions."

Ghulam, it is very simple. Opinions of all sorts are indeed protected by law...HOWEVER, this presumes an iota of social responsibility on the part of those who have the oppurtunity to speak for their ideological partners. What is being protested is the rather arbitrary manner in which Ms. AR pooh-poohs the LEGITIMATE case against SAR Geelani, proclaims him innocent, and then proceeds to berate everyone who suspects that he is not innocent. Ms. Roy DOES NOT answer any of the troubling questions concerning Geelani's ASSOCIATION with the terrorists. Geelani has provided NO explanation for why one of the terrorists would call him a few minutes before the parliament attack. Ms. AR also pretends that no such thing happened. If Ms. Roy wants to preach to all of us about going easy on Geelani, she needs to do better than just go on a diatribe against the delhi police while chanting the SAR Geelani is a cherubim in human form. I am sorry. Publicly available information poses some serious questions that people like AR need to answer before they ask that Geelani be considered innocent.

Why did Geelani receive a call from one of the terrorists shortly before the attack and on numerous instances before that?

Why did Geelani and his lawyer hide the clothes that geelani was shot in for a few days after the shooting?

Geelani still proclaims open support for the secession of J&K from India. Why should this fellow not be considered one of the Kashmiri terrorists who have been plaguing India for 15 years?

As for the sunni muslims existing in large number around the world, we need to only care about those jihadi thugs who are hiding behind the skirt of the secular muslim community, and continue to do evil deeds towards furthering their jihadi agenda.

If they believe that everyone in India must bow down to their bigotry, they bloody well be prepared for reaping the seeds of their violence, hatred, and bigotry. It is not enough to proclaim "islam is peace", when they go around claim ahmaddiyas and sufis are not true muslims who need to be exterminated.

If they are going to kill Indians for not following their rules, they all need to die. There is no room for tolerance towards bigotry and religious fundamentalism of ANY shape or form. Simple as that.

Yes, all religions need to be treated equally, and this means that the sunnis need to accept that islam is just another religion, and cannot be provided special privileges that other religions will not possess in a secular country like India.

Arjun, I have now read all 11 of your items. They contain alot of material. The gist that I got out of it is that you thought she should have presented a lot more supporting information for the arguments she was making. Her distrust of the Delhi Police is equalled by your confidence in them. She and you have opposite takes on the same set of facts, which are often meager. In the West, the thrust of aggressive journalism is toward supporting the individual (Remember Emile Zola's "I Accuse"?) against the government, because the government is so much more powerful than the individual. But in today's India, with security concerns being paramount, I can understand your position also. Thanks for referring me to your analysis.

"Bhaskar, you say that a vast majority of Indian intelligentia disagree with the views of Roy and Thapar. But you surely do not mean to imply that dissident minority opinions should not be allowed in journals devoted to free expression of opinions. .."

You must be kidding. Noam Chomskys/Eric Hobsbawms are NOT entrusted to write School history books in USA/England. But Romila Thapar does that in India. Chomsky/Hobsbawms have every liberty in the West. Our version of them has much more: they have liberty as well as manipulative Zeal.

These are NOT "liberals" like Tagore, gandhi, or Nehru. These Ultra-left's world view is Binary, and they don't accept any dissent. Remember, what happened recently, when Manmohan Singh, the Present prime Minister spoke about "Left fundamentalism" in his 15th August Speech from the Red-Fort? How Likes of Sumit Sarkars, Irphan Habibs reacted the next day, in a hurriedly called News-conference?

Irphan Habib said: The Prime Minister has accepted half the Logic of RSS!

So, anything, and everything, whoever doesn't agree with these left fundamentalist, are colluding with RSS. Even Manmohan Singh!

After all that's why they are fundamentalists, isn't it? Who don't change their position, accept Logic. Just see their position of Kashmir, Partition, Pre-Partition Muslim league, WWII, China, 1962 war, or even Indian Foreign Secretary's Speech last weel.

Its apalling. Anti Indian is the common thread running in all their discourse.

Ghulam wrote:

"The gist that I got out of it is that you thought she should have presented a lot more supporting information for the arguments she was making."

Thanks for bothering to read all those posts, Ghulam.

I don't know what supporting information she has in this article; I would be much obliged if you listed out her supporting information. Other than unsubstantiated allegations against the Delhi police, she has presented little else.

" Her distrust of the Delhi Police is equalled by your confidence in them. "

That is incorrect. I do not have "confidence" in the Delhi Police, but given a choice between a man who was in touch with terrorists who commited a terrorist attack on the parliament and the delhi police, hell yeah, the delhi police carry a lot more credibility. The whole notion of "everybody is equally right" that you have been massaging into the debate does not withstand scrutiny. I am sorry.

If I am given the choice of believing a criminal and a law enforcement officer, I CANNOT PRESUME that the law enforcement office is as guilty as the criminal, as Arundhati Roy does with a wave of her hand by the second paragraph of her essay.

"She and you have opposite takes on the same set of facts, which are often meager. "

Maybe you can get into more specifics as to why you are claiming that all sides are equally wrong (or right), as I fail to see what supporting information Arundhati has provided in her article -- I do not see her going into any details of the evidence against Geelani or whether SAR Geelani has sufficiently explained away all his connections to a known terrorist. These issues must be addressed if she is going to preach to all of us that Geelani is a just a poor, wronged soul crushed under the boots of the horrible, horrible thing known as the Indian justice system (which apparently only delivered justice whenever the outcome is to the liking of the likes of A Roy).

If you could please give us all specifics (in point form, nothing elaborate) as to (a) what is the "supporting information" she has presented (b) what are the "Same set of facts" sha and I are working off (c) which of the points have mentioned requires additional proof. That should take us to the next level.

"In the West, the thrust of aggressive journalism is toward supporting the individual (Remember Emile Zola's "I Accuse"?) against the government, because the government is so much more powerful than the individual."

Firstly, Emile Zola was writing about France in the 1860s, and I am not entirely sure why his views translates to anything relevant a century and a half later. Which part of his philosphy you think applies to India and why?

The point is not to support the individual against the govt. for no good reason. It is not as if the individual is always right, which is why journalists need to use the brains god provided them to use good judgement before they get on a crusade against the state to support a potential terrorist. Failing to do due diligence implies collusion with anti-national elements at worst, or a callous lack of good intentions towards the general public at best. Both of which do not speak highly of the calibre of journalism practised.



" But in today's India, with security concerns being paramount, I can understand your position also. Thanks for referring me to your analysis. "

Thanks, that is exactly the point.

Arjun, I was making a reference to your saying that Ms Roy made such and such a claim without providing any supporting evidence. I was not referring to any claim in particular. I also said that the two of you had different takes on the same set of events. I did not make any notes from the posts containing your 11 items, but what I had in mind is the circumstances surrounding Geelani's being shot, such as the speculation regarding involvement of his co-defendents, the significance of the sweater and the missing coat etc. Emil Zola's "I Accuse" still remains a classic example of protest journalism, his modern equivalents may be Bob Herbert, the New York Times columnist, or Bill Moyers of PBS TV, now retired.

Arjun Matto,
Shouting is a sign of losing an argument. Stop using this forum to further your kashmiri agenda and ask for more favours from the goverment. YOu said that the caste system is dead in India. Every one saw how much you have been lying . For how long do you expect us to support you. Why should pandits be given any reservation. It has adverse impact on the merit of the society. I think that pundits shoud go back to their state. we cannot carry the useless burden. After doing so much, they just dont stop crying

This is rich! Rajesh puhlease read your own responses in these columns with your newly found wisdom that "Shouting is a sign of losing an argument." You may begin with the one in which you mention about theives in Shabnam Ali's article.

Wow Mr.Rajesh,
So the Kashmiri Hindus are a "burden"? Speak for yourself - Kashmiri Pundits are our brothers and love India more than your immigrant a** for sure.
If anybody should leave, it is those that support the enemies of India - lying jihadis like you who can't even remember the "Hindu" names they use! (I hope you never return to India)
How would you like to be kicked out of your cozy little New York home because of your race or religion and told to go back to where you come from?
It is easy to tell a Hindu and especially a Brahmin to get out of your country isn't it? Got the guts to say that to a Muslim or a Christian? You gutless wretch!

Mr.Rajesh Jihadi,
Don't presume to speak for India. If the Kashmiri Pandits are a burden on India, so are minorities of every kind. You can't pick and choose - I for one would choose you first to go back to wherever you came from - Africa may be a good choice.

“It is easy to tell a Hindu and especially a Brahmin to get out of your country isn't it?”

There is the reason behind the Hue and Cry over great!! Massive!! Suffering!!!! of Kashimir Paindits. Because they are upper caste ( so called) we are supposed to cry and bear their baggage. The continuous innumerable atrocities committed by them on the vast population are quickly forgotten. No one would have given a damn if they had been dalits. Their displaced people don’t even get refugee camps. Why cant the kashmiri pandits be satisfied to sleep on the streets, carry night soil for a living and eat out of garbage bins like the dalits do. After all al professions are honorable!!!!!. How come only the kashmiri pandits became refujees. What happened to other hindus of the valley? Why no one talks about them? The nation has done more than enough for you. For centuries we have carried these parasitic people on our heads. Stay happily in the refugee camps or go back. Stop demanding more and more benefits for your small problems. They are miniscule compared to the problems the vast majority of this country faces

Rajesh

you are wrong when you say 'No one would give a damn if they were dalits'

my friend, if they were dalits, the you would have the like of Mayawati, Laloo, Paswan & Mulayam lining up to claim them as vote banks.

If they were muslims, then all of the above and the Left and the Congress would line up.

Just because they are upper caste hindus, no one, not even the BJP has done anything for them.

More than a burden, they are a shame for us. A person having to live as a refugee in his own country is a shame. But we feel that the shame can be done away with by just ignoring them. And then these are Hindus and upper caste hindus at tha, so ignoring them is not an issue.

So you wont have a Barkha Dutt with a TV camera going through these refugee camps, showing the appalling conditions they live in, cramped up in little rooms.

No sir, only muslim refugee camps would make a good story and fetch a journalism award.

Why dont they pick up garbage and clean the streets and sleep on the streets? You seem to forget that these are not illegal Bangladeshi immigrants who escaped their home country for a better living.

These are people who have left their homes to live. Period. They had to leave their established businesses, homes, schools behind for the fear of being killed.

Has any government - the fundamentalist BJP Government or the secular UPA Govt given them a guarantee of a better life, hell, even life if they return to the valley?

No sir, but we have committees and battery of lawyers out on the streets arguing about what security should be given to Geelani(a person allegedly having link with terrorists and who espouses the cause of a separate Kashmir and who has been let out by courts on a technicality)

Nobody leaves their ancestral home except under circumstances of severe duress and endangerment. It is a disgrace that such things occur. To make flippant or petty remarks about the victims of such a tragedy would be contrary to our Indian upbringing.

Srinivas

”my friend, if they were dalits, the you would have the like of Mayawati, Laloo, Paswan & Mulayam lining up to claim them as vote banks.”

Yes yes How true, Every one is going all out to help the dalits.. That’s why they are so prosperous. U forgot to mention that Hindu Upper caste keep most of the seats vacant and don’t miss an opportunity do decry the meager reservations they get.

” If they were muslims, then all of the above and the Left and the Congress would line up”

No party even whispered against muslim genocide in gujrat post godhra.

”No sir, only muslim refugee camps would make a good story and fetch a journalism award.”

You forgot to mention that modi/ RSS and company shut them down prematurely to push the shit under the carpet and say that the room is clean. Pandit refujee camps have not been shut down.

“Why dont they pick up garbage and clean the streets and sleep on the streets? You seem to forget that these are not illegal Bangladeshi immigrants who escaped their home country for a better living.”

The millions of people who sleep on the streets or live in Tuberculosis infected city slums, whose children and dogs eat from the same garbage are Bangladeshis according to you. When will you guys stop lying. Have you ever asked them their name. Half of mumbais police constables live in slums. Why are there no Uppercastes among street dwellers . why are they all dalits/ obcs. It must be their own fault!!!!. They are not a product of uppercaste discrimination!!!!.. While everyones heart is pouring out for displaced kashmiris no one seems to care about millions of dalits who inhabit the streets. They are not a shame??? Only kashmiri pandits are. Dalits are not displaced snatched of the very opportunity to live by the uppercastes.. Only the kashmiri pandits are by muslims

”These are people who have left their homes to live. Period. They had to leave their established businesses, homes, schools behind for the fear of being killed.”

So what do you expect us to do. Build businesses and homes for them. We would if we had money to first feed ourselves. How much money hindu (bhramins) have contributed for kashmiris .. zero. How much money hindus give for Ram temple and funding fanatics… millions. Charity as a concept is alien to hindus. The only hindus who have money are the baniyas who have money for only two things.. themselves and off late politics .. so that they can make more money. What happened to kashmiri dalits? why have they not become refujees? The people who would suffer most due to insurgency in the valley are the socially and economically disadvantaged. But here we have former business owners and banglow residents asking and hijacking all government help as usual ( Tsunami victims, earth quake victims)

”Has any government - the fundamentalist BJP Government or the secular UPA Govt given them a guarantee of a better life, hell, even life if they return to the valley?”

Has anyone given a guarantee to the millions of homeless people.. That comes first and kashmiri pandits come later, atleast they are getting refugee camps . Kashmiri pandits are quite well off compared to the rest. Their children are studying in pvt engg colleges all across India

”No sir, but we have committees and battery of lawyers out on the streets arguing about what security should be given to Geelani(a person allegedly having link with terrorists and who espouses the cause of a separate Kashmir and who has been let out by courts on a technicality)”

Shankaracharya was also released on a technicality ( By your definition of technical). The whole country went on strike for a person who allegedly has links with killers and espoused hindu system of discrimination ( see website of kanchi mutt) he says caste system is the back bone of hinduism and we have to protect it whatever…. Who is a bigger criminal, Shankaracharya of geelani

Like the Sindhis and Punjabis who had arrived in refugee camps in wretched condition after partition, the Kashmiri hindus are capable of giving back more to the society then they have recieved. That is why they are welcomed wherever they go.

The foolish talk of reservation and watering down of merit is highly dubious and ridiculous. Many educational institutes have given admission to Kashmiri students on case by case basis and not as a matter of policy. And if there is a policy in place then why not? Dont they have right to education? Plus these students do not have reserved jobs waiting for them and have to strike out on their own. What home truth Mr. Rajesh misses out is that these admissions have been granted and are applicable equally to the Kashmiri Muslims also. So it is the Kashmiri students you should be reffering to and not the Kashmiri hindus alone.

I have gone to university with a number of Kashmiri students and while many of the muslim students flew back to kashmir during holidays, the hindu students caught the train back to their adopted home wherever it was outside J&K. This is a telling commentry on current state of affairs.

Mr. Rajesh your comments can be equated to trying to hurt where it hurts most. When you could not answer the specifics of comments of your critics you have deliberately resorted to this cheap trick. You would do well to remember that "Shouting is a sign of losing an argument".

Mr.Rajesh,
And I for one amd tired of this endless "Oh, woe be me - I am Dalit, I am Muslim, I am a Victim" charade that you people play. More college reservations for me, more jobs for me!
Don't you have any dignity to parade yourself naked so brazenly?
If you are a Dalit, so what! Why don't you take your begging bowl to your leaders, the Paswans and Mayawatis? We can't even elect a decent politician because all that the Dalits and Muslims vote for is Laloo and scream about abuse!!

why not export ms. roy to pakistan, this will solve our problems and give ms. roy all the freedom to write coz even she writes something offending she can easily hide in her burqha over there. hail india.

My friend Arjun MAttoo,

Pl try to understand the frustration of an educated Muslim like Ghulan Faruki living in the sanctuary provided by the evil west- how can he accept the violent nature of his own religion who openly asks KAfirs to be killed and oppresses women.

All he has been left is pointing fingers at others in the name of Gujarat- as if Muslims were not violent before Gujarat or Kashmir.

One can only sympathise with him.Usko Islam ki problems accept karke marna hi thodi hai!

Ghulam wrote:

"Arjun, I was making a reference to your saying that Ms Roy made such and such a claim without providing any supporting evidence. I was not referring to any claim in particular."

See, unless you tell me what I have not provided to convince you, I am not going to be able to provide you what is missing, can I? If you choose to remain vague, that is your prerogative.

" I also said that the two of you had different takes on the same set of events. I did not make any notes from the posts containing your 11 items, but what I had in mind is the circumstances surrounding Geelani's being shot, such as the speculation regarding involvement of his co-defendents, the significance of the sweater and the missing coat etc."

Okay, here is a link where you can get a collection of all the news stories on the parliament attack for your benefit. Read through them and let me know if there is some thing I have said that is not mentioned in these news items.

http://www.rediff.com/news/pattack.h tm


" Emil Zola's "I Accuse" still remains a classic example of protest journalism, his modern equivalents may be Bob Herbert, the New York Times columnist, or Bill Moyers of PBS TV, now retired."

Glad you mentioned Bill Moyers, here is Ms. Arundhati Roy's interview with him from 2002.

http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/tra nscript135_full.html

" Here, you have a system in India where the supreme court is probably the most powerful institution in the country. And because the politicians have become so corrupt, you know, the court has taken over a lot of the decision making.

So the court is deciding whether dams should be built or not, whether a slum should be cleared or not, whether privatization should be legitimized or not. The courts are deciding. And then they say that because of the contempt of court, you can't discuss it, you can't comment on it. "

So, according to Ms. Roy, our politicians, courts, police officers, and bureaucrats are ALL corrupt, except for Ms. Roy and her anarchist crowd. So, according to Ms. Roy, we need to PRESUME that the Indian govt., courts, police etc. ARE ALL AS GUILTY AS POTENTIAL TERRORISTS LIKE SAR GEELANI.

Can you tell me what sense is there in such an attitude? If we start believing that criminals are as good as the people who run the justice system, WHY BOTHER WITH HAVING A GOVERNMENT?

Ms. Roy's repugnance for the State and love for the criminal class does not speak well about her judgement at best and puts her in the same class the terrorists who attacked parliament and shpwed the same contempt for Indian democracy that Ms. Roy does in this interview.

If you think her rhetoric in this interview is "protest journalism", where she spews hatred for hindus and calls them all fascists, never mind the fact that if these hindus were as fanatic as the sunni wahabbi muslims, Ms. Roy would be dead and long gone by now --- something that Ms. Roy thinks will never happen....is that why she kisses up to terrorists, so that she will not be a target??

Rajesh, you are a liar and a fool, and you do not have the elementary decency to empathize with victims of violence no matter who they are. I prefer to interact with other gentlemen on this forum who have the common decency to speak for what is right, instead of lying and spreading hate like you have been doing in all your posts.

If you are considered a human by those around you, it is purely because of your physical characteristics, given the patent ugliness of your soul that you have exposed to us all.

Ashok, I am sure you have reasons for saying the things that you say about me, although I do not remember discussing either Kashmir or Gujerat. I do not know what makes you more angry, my being a Muslim, or my living in the West, or my belief that saying bad things about other people's religion is a dangerous game that all can play but none can win.

Arjun, if I gave the impression that I favor Ms Roy's version of events over yours, I must make it clear that I don't. The purpose in my earler query was to try to understand what were the subtantive objections to Ms Roy's article that made so many readers angry, and you have provided me with the answer to my question.

" I do not know what makes you more angry, my being a Muslim, or my living in the West, or my belief that saying bad things about other people's religion is a dangerous game that all can play but none can win. "

Well said, Ghulam. Having said that, we must also accept that there are people who kill, maim, and murder in the name of their religion, like the wahabbis and the deobandis. Such accept secularism as a millstone around their neck, and these people must not be encouraged in the interest of the general public, no matter what their religion is.

Protest Journalism & Arundhuti Roy: The flip Side.

Arjun, thanks for sending the Bill Moyers Interview with Arundhuti Roy (http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript135_f ull.html). It was very revealing to me. I didn't know Arundhuti Roy believe in Civilization, their dialogue, common destiny. Once she reads more Tagore-Gandhi, she would see the uniqueness of Indian Civilization and feel compelled to take steps to protect it. Because others who are attacking it, don't believe in these Universal values of this Civilization. They want to have it SOLELY in their own way.

It brings out deep differences between Arundhuti Roy and Geelani: like on Source of Kashmir Sunni terrorism, partition etc. Pieces like this, are being used by terrorist, and their supporters like Geelani to score brownie points, demoralization of law-Enforcement agencies. But this Episode has boomeranged to their head, and the whole industry of "Civil rights" is getting more and more exposed today. Nandita Hashkar, who her husband is, what he does etc. What Begum Teesta does, what are their source of funding etc are now known to every Politically conscious citizen.

Indian is a unique Country, where Jihadi Civil Rights Supporters, Christian Evangelical Civil Rights Supporters ,Ultra Left Intelletuals, and Naxalites see a great Synergy. By coming together, they see a great oppurtunity of balkanization of India, huge Social unrest, and thus stop the development of the country and society. Plus there are 900 million "Hindus" who follw false religion and false Gods, who needs URGENT Salvation by all of these.

We have listened to all these craps for a long, long period. Unless these people change their course, it will cause major social unrest. Even a Senior Communist leader like A.B. Bardhan recently accepted to Ramchandra Guha, a Noted Liberal writer of today: Christian Conversion is destroying Tribal Culture.

"Feedom" and Kashmiri Language: Gradual murder of this Glorious language

Couple of months back, there was a small news item: Arjun Singh(Education Minister) didn't accept a proposal to recognize Kashmiri Language Books written in Devnagri Script, for different prizes/citations given by Different Central Govt Agencies. As we know, Kashmiri is one of the two languages in India (other is Tamil), which is Indigeneous: meaning NOT related with Indo-Aryan language family. It has a rich history. Duing Muslim rule in 14th-15th Century, its scripts got changed to Arabic-Perisan one (like Urdu).

So, what promted this proposal of having a Devnagari Script for Kashmir Language?

After some research, I found out, Kashmiri Language is pushed to the background by Successive J&K Govts. They are pushing Urdu, and gradual Islamization of a Language. In Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, Kashmiri has no place, but Urdu is taught in all Schools. So, a lots of Kashmiris, mostly non-Muslims, started using Kashmiri in Devnagari Script to save it.

Would be interesting to know: what's the take of Arundhuti Roy on this issue? Does people like them realize the pitfalls of supporting Versions of freedom espoused by Geelani and others like him? World view of Geelanis' revolve around "glory" of Sunni-Arab Domination, not ONLY through narrow meaning of Islam (A great peaceful religion), but also through Language imperialism. Instead of confronting these people at their very roots, these type of articles will boost them. Because Geelanis never change.

Thanks for the link to the interview below. Will Arundhati please let the indian people know that if the Indian government is not war ready, how we are supposed to react to a possible repeat of 1962 over a mound of dead Indians.

While the whole nuclear episode is quite unfortunate for the entire humanity, but your representation of India in this respect is not just an ignorant but a criminal one when you concur with Moyers about the pre-emptive strike of Pak against India or India against Pak. India has unilaterally declared a non first strike.

Ghulam Faruki,

"Ashok, I am sure you have reasons for saying the things that you say about me, although I do not remember discussing either Kashmir or Gujerat. I do not know what makes you more angry, my being a Muslim, or my living in the West, or my belief that saying bad things about other people's religion is a dangerous game that all can play but none can win. "

U bet yr bottom dollar that I have reason for all I say to people like u and pl do not try to emotionally black-mail me/put me to a defensive mode by insinuating that I say bad things about other religion.

When u do not condemn terrorism, condone violence and hero-worship terrorists, promote lack of democracy, secularism and equality of all humans in your Muslim world- what inference do we mere mortals draw?

When 700 verses of Quran ask believers to convert or kill Kafirs- how do I become a villain?

When Islam sanctions inequality and oppression to your own mothers, sisters and daughters- and u do not protest or change, why do I get the flak for speaking the truth?

When u sitting in the sanctuary of west espouse big words while Islamic world revels in orthodoxy, oppression and stone-age laws, is it not mere convenience or hypocrisy to talk big words while continuing to follow Islam rigidly?

And if you still believe that in the name of being 'politically correct', truth should not be spoken, and if it is spoken- it will be dealt with by some fatwa a la Rushdie style, I have news for you.

It is people like you who have to live with their conscience and it is for you to decide if u want to stop fooling yrself or not.

Meanwhile, the world moves on!

Ashok, thanks for your input. I understand you better now.

Ghulam Faruki,

Thanks for understanding me better now.

Time to understand yourself better now!

ADI
“We can't even elect a decent politician because all that the Dalits and Muslims vote for is Laloo and scream about abuse!!”

What you mean to say that you couldn’t reelect the Bhramin Vajpayee and his bhramin party

ADI
…“Don't you have any dignity to parade yourself naked so brazenly?
If you are a Dalit, so what! Why don't you take your begging bowl to your leaders, the Paswans and Mayawatis?”…

Whos is coming with a begging bowl and remains hungry forever and never thankful … kashmiri bhramins. Read srinivas quote below
…“Just because they are upper caste hindus, no one, not even the BJP has done anything for them. You seem to forget that these are not illegal Bangladeshi immigrants who escaped their home country for a better living.These are people who have left their homes to live. Period.” …

Mattoo
….“Rajesh, you are a liar and a fool, and you do not have the elementary decency to empathize with victims of violence no matter who they are.”…

Kashmiri Bhramins are not the victims, they are victimizers, the real victims of insurgency, the dalits, in the valley are not even spoken about. Suddenly your peoples tactics have changed and you have started calling Kashmiri Hindus instead of usual kashmiri pandits

Mattoo
“I prefer to interact with other gentlemen on this forum who have the common decency to speak for what is right, instead of lying”
Mattoo slapped Faruqi but was stumped when the guy offered him another cheek. So he has come around and started behaving.

ADI
“Oh, woe be me - I am Dalit, I am Muslim, I am a Victim" charade that you people play.

See quote by Srinivas
“Just because they are upper caste hindus, no one, not even the BJP has done anything for them.”
Who is playing the charade .. bhramins.. old strategy to victimize others but portray that great injustice is being done to themselves.

ADI: “ More college reservations for me, more jobs for me!””

Ur answer lies in shreyas quote “The foolish talk of reservation and watering down of merit is highly dubious and ridiculous” …
….whats wrong with you guys … Didn’t you adopt a different approach when the govt proposed reservation for dalits in pvt sector a few days back. .. But when it comes to kashmiri pandits… then reservations are good.

What cheap tactics as usual

I had seen the September 2002 interview of Ms Roy with Bill Moyers on TV, and had gotten some calls from colleagues that night and some questions from my internet chat room friends asking about her. I revisited the interview on the PBS site today. She is a fearless speaker. I have to agree with some of the previous posts saying that her views are on the other extreme when compared to the views of the majority of posters here. Her remarks about the powers of the courts and about the construction of the dam may be controversial. But there are also things in the interview that most of us can agree about. For example her statements about the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Salvador Allende with American collusion and the installation of the ruthless regime of Pinochet are exactly identical to my own views on the subject. She also cautions us of the exploitative potential of globalization. I think a country is better off when dissident voices, even if they are extreme, are permitted. The institutions of the country should be strong enough to be able to take such opinions in its stride.

Faruki,
Whom are you trying to convince. Paid writers of RSS? Can these people ever match the callibre and foresight and courage of Arundhati? This whole forum is opened by Outlook to unofficially give voice to RSS who have infilterated every media. RSS pays people to write jingoistic propoganda on every forum. Its the international reach of AR and Amartya sen that bothers RSS most as they want to push the shit under the carpet and call the room clean ( India shining) How these fanatics scuttled the proposal for discussing the question of caste at a UN forum to prevent it from becoming a global issue is fresh in every ones mind.. Its a simple strato of these upper castes (so called).. fool people and keep ruling

Forgot to add that kashmiri Pandits are the RSS ammunition to flare communal passion..nothing else. Can you believe that RSS goes and opens vanvasi kalyan ashrams for Tribals but dosent contribute for charity for Kashmiri Bhramins ( thier own community).. poor labour class members of just one St Michaels Church in Dubai sent 680,000 Dihrams and two forty feet containers of new clothes for Tsunami victims in india... Thats called charity.. Its in a culture.. ( but not in hindu culture) .. RSS is a big fraud .. Facade of tribal welfare is to generate a fobia against christians ( conversions). Fool hindus against minorities and keep ruling..simple

GHULAM FARUKI

Your comments on the extreme voices is quite amusing. So according to you a voice for demand of *religion based cleansing* in India would be better? Or views about pro-AIDS campaign would do india good just because its on the other extreme of the usual campaigns concerning AIDS? I highly doubt the validity of such a flawed reasoning.

RAJESH

I am a practicing protestant and i find your views ridiculous at best with aim only to piss off the hindus here. The contribution by Indians (with majority of hindus) for tsunami aid is already close to $500 million. Another hindu organisation (Mata Amritanandamayi Math ) has started a $22million rehabilitation effort primarliy for fishermen , which ofcourse wont be the hindus. As Demosthenes said, 'Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true'. So you can keep your eyes and ears closed and very well continue to live your fantasy based on land of pure and 70 virgin(ians). Nuff said

Two of the biggest advertisers on the outlook seem to be ICICI and Philips. Please feel free to contribute to the inbox of the companies as to how positive image of theirs would be created in the minds of people like "india.patriotic@siliconvalley.usa" if they continue to support such "useful" views regarding India.

PS: just to clarify, in my last post the assertion that the fishermen wont be hindus is simply due to the fact that acc to RAJESH the target audience of the hindu orgs wont b anyone other than brahmins, so those ppl wont b the ones who would be helped.

RK singapore or should i call you AWAKEN BHARART.. So U are a practicing protestant?.. hmmm ...I guess the dog collar was necessary for you make your figures look more authentic. wasnt it? They wudnt sound convincing if an hindu speaks.woud they? Also do your math again. $500 million is RS 2000 crores and $22 million is Rs 88 crores. Do i need to tell others that you are lying. Btw how much are you making from RSS for writing mails. Must be quite a lot .. the same nonsense multiplied by all the fraud email ids.



"Two of the biggest advertisers on the outlook seem to be ICICI and Philips. Please feel free to contribute to the inbox of the companies as to how positive image of theirs would be created in the minds of people like"

This is a veiled threat to the companies not to support outlook with ads

Ofcourse the dog collar was as necessary as the hindu name of yours is a crude attempt to sound credible. Guess everyone has a ball and chain.

Go ahead to prove any of the numbers be in $ or Rs or pounds to prove me wrong. Instead of stupidity to exhibit (like you), i am putting forward FACTS that can be verified. As simple as that.

As for as being a memeber of RSS is concerned, whats wrong if one is? Is it an illegal organisation in any part of thw world other than possibly the land of pure (perhaps you would know that)?

PS: You need the timing QBC or its congregation timing :). Here again i am coming with facts unlike you.

"This is a veiled threat to the companies not to support outlook with ads"

So according to you the freedom of expression is sacrosanct only when the views of roy are to be presented. Otherwise it becomes a threat?

do a better job at trying to get my post deleted at the end of the day :)

Ghulam Faruki,

" I think a country is better off when dissident voices, even if they are extreme, are permitted. The institutions of the country should be strong enough to be able to take such opinions in its stride."

Noble words with whom no sane person can disagree.

Unfortunately, such noble words are generally directed at secular, open, democratic societies (however defective, they may be), never at totalitarian regimes, which are pre-dominantly located in the Islamic world.

Ever wonder why all lecture are for the good guys only?

Ghulam Faruki,

" I think a country is better off when dissident voices, even if they are extreme, are permitted. The institutions of the country should be strong enough to be able to take such opinions in its stride."

Noble words with whom no sane person can disagree.

Unfortunately, such noble words are generally directed at secular, open, democratic societies (however defective, they may be), never at totalitarian regimes, which are pre-dominantly located in the Islamic world.

Ever wonder why all lecture are for the good guys only?

Frontline, latest issue, "Targeting Geelani"

"In December 2002, a special Prevention of Terrorism Act (POTA) court had sentenced to death Geelani, who was arrested soon after the December 2001 incident, along with Mohammad Afzal, Shaukat Guru and his wife Afzan Guru. The Delhi Police relied mostly on an intercepted telephone conversation in Kashmiri between Geelani and his half-brother to establish the conspiracy angle. Geelani appealed in the High Court in January 2003. In December that year, the court acquitted Geelani and Afsan Guru. The court held that there was nothing in the telephone conversation to implicate Geelani in the attack case. The Delhi Police then moved the Supreme Court, where the case is pending"

The lies of most of the people who lied on this forum, who pulled the trigger on geelani have thus been exposed. end of discussion. bye Awaken bharat. Count your money earnd from RSS. its a hindu terrorist organisation.. that what is wrong with it.

"The lies of most of the people who lied on this forum, who pulled the trigger on geelani have thus been exposed. end of discussion. bye Awaken bharat. Count your money earnd from RSS. its a hindu terrorist organisation.. that what is wrong with it. "

The person was found guilty by the POTA court, acquited by HC and case is pending in front of SC. So your point is that since magazines/newspapers report it to be, then he is innocent. So this means no need to go to SC at all. This might be the way things work in land of pure, certainly not in India. You might want to confirm it with Roy as a matter of fact.

Oh so RSS is a hindu terrorist organisation? Declared that by LeT or JeM or AQ or SIMI or ... ?

RK,

Have u noticed the number of Hindus like Arundhati Roy et al defending Geelani on the basis of 'innocent till proven guilty'.

On the other hand, ever noticed even one Muslim, anywhere in this forum or Outlook, forget about Arundhati Roy,, saying that Jagadguru Shankracharya should be considered 'innocent until proven guilty' being tried by the same judicial system of the country that tried Geelani?

The nearest was poor PS Jha who was scared of the benefit that will accrue to 'Fundamentalist Hindus and BJP', in case Shankaracharya is proven innocent- not worried about the harm done to an innocent man, a religious leader of Hindus.

Not even a slur on the Tamil Nadu Police over the Shankaracharya issue, unlike our Dilli Police, which has been declared guilty without any evidence by our media and holders of secularism.

Long live Indian brand of secularism!

Brother Rajesh wrote: ".. Thats called charity.. Its in a culture.. ( but not in hindu culture) .. ....Facade of tribal welfare is to generate a fobia against christians ( conversions). .."

Brother Rajesh: You are denigrating a Culture(Indian) by importing categories from Another culture (Europe) for a cause (Religious Conversion). And thanks for letting the mask fall, so openly. The world knows now, isn't it? Thanks to Edward Said (Orientalism), Thomas Trautmann(Aryans and British India) and many otheres.

Indian History, Social Sciences were produced with Europe Categories WITH CHRISTIAN MISSIONARY AGENDA.

There were times, when Rants like yours used to be treated as "mis-informed", "report of a drain-Inspector" (Gandhiji) by Indians. But we are NOT going to do that anymore, we WOULD confront.

Nobody, No Indian, would support Missionary project of denigrating Indian Culture FOR CONVERSION. These Agendas are throughly Exposed today. Instead believe in "Cultural relativism", meaning analyze each culture with its own categories, methods, values. Not by importing from another Civilization.

We would build our India with paths Shown by Tagore, Gandhi, Nehru, Rajaji, Bankimchandra, Vivekand and others.

"Religion and 'Dharma' are not same" --Jean-Claude Carriere. Who is this person, Any idea, brother Rajesh? He is the tallest French Intellectual Celebrity today! So brother, start believeing in "Cultural relativism", and stop denigrating other cultures for ulterior motives like Conversion. Europe has done that with Near East, India, Africa, far-East....everywhere.

ITS PURE AND SIMPLE RACISM.

Sir,

One article questioning the state machinery, which almost killed a muslim in cold blood, and just look at the letters raving against the writer.
I wonder what the reaction of these (Indian secularist ) readers would have been if, like the RSS writers, she had written an article in support of the Kanchi Sankaracharya, in his murderer avatar.
End of the day, its the religion that matters in India, really.

Shukoor PS

Mr. Sukhoor,

If you have come to the conclusion that in India it is religion that matters, then one must be highly surprised at muted response to Shankracharay's arrest among general "hindu majority" public. While there are few indignant responses, the hindu majority in the country is plain indifferent to the whole issue including myself.

However, this article and you seem to be very sure about the use of 'state machinery, which almost killed a muslim in cold blood' without any proof. It is this kind of double standards which is using minority 'identity' as it's mainstay, that anger a common hindu. It comes as no surprise that increasingly hindus are becoming unapologetic about their right leanings. I would like to point Ms. Arundhati, yourself and also Ms. Ananya herself to Ananya's quote "Identity discourse makes it impossible to talk about positions, because we are too busy talking about the persons who implicitly embody or explicitly espouse them."

Mirror mirror on the wall...

Use google for search

Shreya,

Why do you get so upset that 'no one protested the Sankaracharyas arrest'? Why dont you begin to realise that even a former PM sat in dharna with almost all his cabinet colleagues at the moment?
Why do Hindus have to equate muslim human rights as 'appeasement' of muslims? Why do you think Arundhati Roy is biased? Why this huge rise of Hindu fanaticism in India?

Please read my response with respect to your take where first of all you have assumed Shankracharya as 'in his muderer avatar'. Second, I have pointed out that it has hardly generated the kind of protest it could if the ENTIRE hindu community had taken it as a personal assault, which it has not, a few dharna's as mentioned by you notwithstanding. Please try and comprehend what is written before jumping to a conclusion that suits you.

Your argument would have been more credilble if you were concerned about attack on an Indian citizen, and if the person in question is not happy to be identified as Indian citizen, then to the fact that he is above all a human being. Please do not try to give it religious colour. You are claiming to be above such petty considerations as religion, your words though belie you. I would like to reiterate that I have nowhere mentioned that it upsets me that Shankracharya was arrested so please do not point your finger at me. And if you would, do note the other four pointing at yourself.

And yes, talking about avatar's...

My previous take is in response to Mr. Shukoor

Shreya,

If you think that the Sankaracharya was innocent and are one of those who thinks that anybody who accuses him is anti national, there are plenty more of your ilk, who are very active in message boards similar to this one.

Or were you expecting a 'freedom struggle' or a Gujarat type riot or Babri Masjid type goondaism to 'really' defend the Saint?

The person in question, who was killed, was also incidentally an Indian, in case you have conveniently forgotten.

Shukoor,

Get yourself a lesson in comprehension if you are having so much difficulty in understanding the flow of my message.

Shreya,

What you need is a lesson in non religious thinking. Your comprehension of messages and their meanings should then follow.

Sir,

One article questioning the state machinery, which almost killed a muslim in cold blood, and just look at the letters raving against the writer.
I wonder what the reaction of these (Indian secularist ) readers would have been if, like the RSS writers, she had written an article in support of the Kanchi Sankaracharya, in his murderer avatar.
End of the day, its the religion that matters in India, really.

Shukoor PS

Religion does matter in INDIA .. anything remotely connected to HINDU is bad .Any thing coneected to muslims is good as it favours the secularism. Great....

Sandeep,

This is called majority communism - pretending as if the majority community is at danger from the MINORITY comunity. Is nt that called fscism - used by Hitler, ad now by Bal Thack?

And remember that the Sankaracharya was arrested by a BRAHMIN.

Well if hindus are attacked the you can not ppose it. Do that and you will be labbled as nazi fascist..there is no caste angle in Sankaracharya case. if he is criminal he should be hanged. but kindly have the gut to criticise the minority when it is wrong

What a cheap attention attracting gimmeckery you are upto Shukoor that you had to copy paste your previous comments again. You mentioned in your message about majority reactions if the writer had written about Shankracharya. In addition you emphatically claim about involvement of state machinery that almost killed a muslim.

So where is your and writers proof that the state is involved besides in your and your protagonists head and of course other like minded people. Suspicions over the veracity of her statements also arise becuase she is known to make allegations without proof. Please read rest of the arguments if you need proof about her chronic lying.

Now you jump to Shankracharya in same vain and label him in his "murderous avatar". Now again where is your proof for same besides the apparent link in your logic that as Geelani is Muslim so he is innocent and as Shankracharya is hindu, he is criminal. The argument should be for the safety of a person who may or may not be wanting to be recognised as Indian.

Now about your acute comprehension (dis)ability. You end your note with exaggerated hand flailing "End of the day, its the religion that matters in India, really." So I point it out that your obvious finger pointing at hindus is not right because if you see the ratio of hindu population and the corresponding "dharnas" and protest, the response can at best be considered muted as most people do not see Shankracharya as symbol of hinduism, in this Shukoor is not a lament but statement of fact and I also mentioned clearly "including myself". But you come back charging with a quote which I never made - 'no one protested the Sankaracharyas arrest'. You betray you mental faculties (or is it lack of it) when from all this you comprehend that I am arguing that Shankracharya is innocent. Once for all let me tell you that though it is not for me to pronounce Shankracharya's guilt but definitely I do not believe in his innocence.

And speaking about babri masjid style goondaism, do enlighten us what would you call the muslim invaders demolishing temples throughout India. Muslims are deafeningly silent on the issue. Do you think that was right? Well one may argue that it is not the current generation that did it so why pose this question to them but are muslims ready to accept that it was unfortunate? Have they ever tried to assauge hurt feelings? What have they done to mitigate the distrust? Your hipocracy stands exposed.

Wow!! Arundhati has out done herself with this one!If we were actually living in an Islamic-Theocratic-Sharia Law following-Taleban-like dictatorship, which modern islamic (is there another kind today?) terrorists seek to create world wide, Miss Roy would be the first to be stoned or lashed to death for treason or even for dressing inappropriately ( not in a burqa). But luckily for all of us, and whether she knows it or not, for her, that is not the case. So we have here, an "activist" who is writing in the support of a terrorist and terrorists in general, and is against the government and indirectly the State itself. But since India, is a democracy, she gets away with it. Even though I disagree with her, I do enjoy reading her articles, because I respect freedom of speech. I usually left amused and often speechless by her claims!! She reminds me of the snake in the Garden of Eden, who ever so artfully (and in Roy's case thru the magic of words), convinced Eve to eat the "forbidden fruit". Although I believe that's a fictional tale, it still illustrates a basic principle, that is, how someone can convince man to do something, which they (the snake/Roy) know to be completely wrong.Its the power of words, and Arundhati is great at using its power to support terrorism and stall development(NDA,No Development Alowed!). The only question that one must ask, is whether Arundhati Roy is Eve or indeed the Snake.

MY Vhut?

This is a very belated insult to the hooker grr... Booker.
How stupid was she to preempt that likely mail from that patriotic Indian. I felt ashamed for having read two pages written by such an un-patriotic anti-national(as in her own confession) sense-less Idiot.

Miss Roy,
Have you ever written about the reqirement of a unified civil law in India ?

This has nothing to do with the article but the attitude of some towards arundhati's writings. Why is it that 'india.patriot@siliconvalley.usa', despite using 100's of words abt the type of person she is(anti everything except publicity), not said a single word abt the content of the article or put forward an alternate point of view? Is she/he anti-opinion or didn't this person read the piece at all?

Suma, that "Indian Patriot" was a purely hypothetical, and crude, caricature of what Roy thinks the average silicon based Indian is thinking.There are lots of sincere, articulate people of Indian origin who are concerned about the goings-on in Kashmir and elsewhere.It doesn't make them hypocrites or jingoistic. Roy herself writes quite a lot of nonsense, which should be detected by people in India itself, which I'm sure does happen. The attack on India's parliament strikes *anyone* ( whether living in silicon valley or India) as something very, very major, right up there with the world trade centre attack. Yet Indians themeselves, including Arundhati Roy, have trivialised the actual incident, and instead concentrated *all* their attention and their anger on how the Indian police have handled the investigation. That strikes one as perverse, reagrdless of where one lives.

Murder, She Wrote & That’s The End Of The Story
Arundhati Roy’s piece on S.A.R. Geelani and politics in the media (Who Pulled the Trigger...Didn’t We All?, Feb 28) highlights something we all feel strongly about. I’ve always felt outraged and helpless about how increasingly our mass media and its enthusiastic cub reporters blow up half-truths, plain lies and motivated statements by the powers-that-be to the level of glorified truth and repeat them endlessly till they begin to sound true to ordinary folks. Geelani too is the victim of this hyperactive but insensitive media. Thanks to it, everything he or his friends say in his defence is made to look suspect to cover up the larger terrifying truth that our police have become 'criminals in uniform’. They’re free to destroy with impunity any life their political masters wish to end. The media plays accomplice in this danse macabre of tyranny in defence of democracy. It’s time every citizen dissociated himself from every act of terror the Indian State and the police commit in ‘our name’. At the same time, we need a mechanism to ensure the media reports the truth about power instead of brandishing the lies of the powerful as the truth.
Vrijendra, Mumbai

Ms Roy may not make much sense about Afghanistan or Narmada but on Geelani, she’s right on the money. The reason why we’ll always be a Third World country is because our law enforcement agencies are thoroughly corrupt and treat citizens like dirt. Indeed, when the suspect happens to be a Muslim in a terrorism case, he cannot escape torture meant to ‘extract’ a confession. We need a grassroots movement to end police brutality.
On Prakash, Laguna Beach, US

Arundhati Roy is nothing but a self-serving, pontificating, judgemental shrew who doesn’t know when to stop. She berates us for our hypernationalism, but if she has so much trouble being a patriot, why doesn’t she renounce the citizenship she once threatened to and retire to Timbuktoo? It’s people like her who gorge on the Western media’s hunger for Indian stereotypes and make hay while that sun shines.
Nivedita Barthakur, London

Bravo, Ms Roy! What a clever way to preempt the critics of thy trickeries—"That’s it from me folks. ‘Bye now. Let the insults roll." Perhaps only Oscar Wilde’s humour-tipped missile can beat your clever self-victimisation salvo: "The play was a great success, but the audience was a disaster."
Saumyadipta Pyne, Stony Brook, US

Ms Roy is not in the business of making unsubstantiated allegations? Wow! This is news to me.
Ramsundar Lakshminarayanan, Chicago

Ms Roy plainly considers herself on the right side of any battle to save humanity from the rest of us hypernationalist riff-raff. So convinced does she seem of her role that she doesn’t care to define herself in the context of two major wars Indians think are being waged against the nation they know and love—one by the forces of Islamist fascism represented by Pakistan in Kashmir and the other by the aspiring Maoist-Pol Potist nomenklatura. The regrettable harm done to individuals like Geelani and the hypernationalism that so offends her fastidious sensibilities are all natural outgrowths of this sense of siege Indians feel. Individual victims like Geelani do matter but only so much—witness the wholesale indifference meted out to every single one of the Kashmiri Pandits dispossessed and brutalised. Without taking a clear stance on these grievances, there can only be outraged flailing and scolding, rather than any persuasive engagement with those of us she "Others" with such literary panache. Though, going by the embarrassingly crude coda to her piece, viciously caricaturing her "silicon valley" critics, we may have to forget the literary bit.
K.V. Bapa Rao, Los Angeles

Ms Roy has done us a great service by trying to bring some sanity and fairness to this issue. We should vigilantly guard against the excesses of a police force with an agenda of its own if we care or our democracy.
Ghulam Faruki, New York

I completely agree with Arundhati Roy. Just because you sport a beard, you don’t automatically become a terrorist. I can understand if it happens to Sikhs in America, but Indians doing it to fellow Indians?
Chandu Prakash, Washington DC

Ms Roy needs help. She keeps tripping on her ignorance-induced publicity-seeking stunts. She’s yearning to be the Maneka Gandhi of human rights. This latest misadventure of hers could not be more ill-advised. She asks us to stop judging S.A.R. Geelani, but she herself is judging him innocent. She goes on to ridicule the Bollywoodisation of his case by the media but shamelessly engages in it herself by making references about the Delhi Police Special Cell. I really wonder how a common man would know if a Special Cell of the Police was shadowing him; it’s supposed to be discreet and under cover, right? Not that the police have anything to be proud about with regard to their human rights record but this case is certainly not worth being bandied about. And no my address doesn’t read siliconvalley.usa but someremotevalley.northeast.india.
Barry Matthew, on e-mail

Arundhati Roy seems to come out of the woodwork whenever there’s a Muslim in trouble with the law. Where was she when the Shankaracharyas were arrested? Or when a Muslim mafia don kidnapped a Hindu woman and forcibly married her? Or Kashmiri Pandits were being ethnic-cleansed in Kashmir? Or when Al Qaeda carries out its killings? Like Shabana Azmi once said of the Imam that she’d pay to airdrop him on the Taliban-ruled Afghanistan, wish we could do the same for Ms Roy.
P.R.R. Van Chirama, New York, US

I want to thank Ms Roy from the bottom of my heart for restricting her piece to just two pages. I know it must have taken her a lot of effort not to use sentence constructions as meandering as the Brahmaputra but she deserves a Booker all by itself for this splendid effort. Bravo Ms Roy. Next time try a single page.
Vikas Chowdhry, Madison, US

After the Indian Supreme Court made it clear to the Booker winner that she was a mere citizen in front of the court, she launched a jehad against the courts. In her articles and interviews, she’d pass snide remarks against the apex court and paint judges as evil and corrupt. I’m glad Geelani’s release has restored her faith in the Indian judiciary.
B. Bhattacharya, Morrisville, US

Ms Roy admits that she is a member of the All India Defence Committee for S.A.R. Geelani. No wonder her arguments are as biased as the people she accuses of so-called fabrication.
Srinivas Karanama, Atlanta, US

On the one hand, Arundhati Roy sets the bar for evidence so high that she wants us to believe that we do not know who planned the Parliament attack. On the other she feels under no obligation to apply that bar to herself, and freely casts aspersions on Delhi Police, without offering any evidence of their involvement in the Geelani affair. Are Booker winners privileged to wear hypocrisy on their sleeves? Roy’s argument is as phoney as her ownership of the Pachmarhi reserved forest villa that the courts restored to their original owners: the people of India.
V. Rajan, Chennai

Could Arundhati Roy please answer a simple question—why was Geelani talking to militants on his cellphone before the attack on Parliament? Of course, this does not prove him guilty but then how many of us talk to militants on the cellphone?
Tarun Puri, Fort Wayne, US

I’ve always believed that if you are rich or famous, then whatever you say becomes instant thought for the day. So it is with La Roy. She takes full advantage of her position to babble on. And anyone who dares go against her grain is immediately dubbed cynical, rightist or that ultimate weapon in these oh-so-secular times—communal.
Yugal Joshi, Delhi

And to answer your question, Ms Roy, no, we did not all pull the trigger, one of Mr Geelani’s terrorist mates did and it’s a pity he did not succeed. Better luck to him next time.
Arjun Mattoo, New Delhi

Everything in India isn’t as bad as Arundhati Roy makes it out to be. Yes, the country has its weaknesses but we have to get over them, and not by belittling the country or its people. Sounding holier-than-thou certainly doesn’t help.
Ravi Kumar, Turku, Finland

"I’m not in the business of making unsubstantiated
allegations"—Ms Roy; "I’m not a crook"—Richard Nixon.
K. Moolchandani, San Diego, US

Murder, She Wrote & That’s The End Of The Story
Arundhati Roy’s piece on S.A.R. Geelani and politics in the media (Who Pulled the Trigger...Didn’t We All?, Feb 28) highlights something we all feel strongly about. I’ve always felt outraged and helpless about how increasingly our mass media and its enthusiastic cub reporters blow up half-truths, plain lies and motivated statements by the powers-that-be to the level of glorified truth and repeat them endlessly till they begin to sound true to ordinary folks. Geelani too is the victim of this hyperactive but insensitive media. Thanks to it, everything he or his friends say in his defence is made to look suspect to cover up the larger terrifying truth that our police have become 'criminals in uniform’. They’re free to destroy with impunity any life their political masters wish to end. The media plays accomplice in this danse macabre of tyranny in defence of democracy. It’s time every citizen dissociated himself from every act of terror the Indian State and the police commit in ‘our name’. At the same time, we need a mechanism to ensure the media reports the truth about power instead of brandishing the lies of the powerful as the truth.
Vrijendra, Mumbai

Ms Roy may not make much sense about Afghanistan or Narmada but on Geelani, she’s right on the money. The reason why we’ll always be a Third World country is because our law enforcement agencies are thoroughly corrupt and treat citizens like dirt. Indeed, when the suspect happens to be a Muslim in a terrorism case, he cannot escape torture meant to ‘extract’ a confession. We need a grassroots movement to end police brutality.
On Prakash, Laguna Beach, US

Arundhati Roy is nothing but a self-serving, pontificating, judgemental shrew who doesn’t know when to stop. She berates us for our hypernationalism, but if she has so much trouble being a patriot, why doesn’t she renounce the citizenship she once threatened to and retire to Timbuktoo? It’s people like her who gorge on the Western media’s hunger for Indian stereotypes and make hay while that sun shines.
Nivedita Barthakur, London

Bravo, Ms Roy! What a clever way to preempt the critics of thy trickeries—"That’s it from me folks. ‘Bye now. Let the insults roll." Perhaps only Oscar Wilde’s humour-tipped missile can beat your clever self-victimisation salvo: "The play was a great success, but the audience was a disaster."
Saumyadipta Pyne, Stony Brook, US

Ms Roy is not in the business of making unsubstantiated allegations? Wow! This is news to me.
Ramsundar Lakshminarayanan, Chicago

Ms Roy plainly considers herself on the right side of any battle to save humanity from the rest of us hypernationalist riff-raff. So convinced does she seem of her role that she doesn’t care to define herself in the context of two major wars Indians think are being waged against the nation they know and love—one by the forces of Islamist fascism represented by Pakistan in Kashmir and the other by the aspiring Maoist-Pol Potist nomenklatura. The regrettable harm done to individuals like Geelani and the hypernationalism that so offends her fastidious sensibilities are all natural outgrowths of this sense of siege Indians feel. Individual victims like Geelani do matter but only so much—witness the wholesale indifference meted out to every single one of the Kashmiri Pandits dispossessed and brutalised. Without taking a clear stance on these grievances, there can only be outraged flailing and scolding, rather than any persuasive engagement with those of us she "Others" with such literary panache. Though, going by the embarrassingly crude coda to her piece, viciously caricaturing her "silicon valley" critics, we may have to forget the literary bit.
K.V. Bapa Rao, Los Angeles

Ms Roy has done us a great service by trying to bring some sanity and fairness to this issue. We should vigilantly guard against the excesses of a police force with an agenda of its own if we care or our democracy.
Ghulam Faruki, New York

I completely agree with Arundhati Roy. Just because you sport a beard, you don’t automatically become a terrorist. I can understand if it happens to Sikhs in America, but Indians doing it to fellow Indians?
Chandu Prakash, Washington DC

Ms Roy needs help. She keeps tripping on her ignorance-induced publicity-seeking stunts. She’s yearning to be the Maneka Gandhi of human rights. This latest misadventure of hers could not be more ill-advised. She asks us to stop judging S.A.R. Geelani, but she herself is judging him innocent. She goes on to ridicule the Bollywoodisation of his case by the media but shamelessly engages in it herself by making references about the Delhi Police Special Cell. I really wonder how a common man would know if a Special Cell of the Police was shadowing him; it’s supposed to be discreet and under cover, right? Not that the police have anything to be proud about with regard to their human rights record but this case is certainly not worth being bandied about. And no my address doesn’t read siliconvalley.usa but someremotevalley.northeast.india.
Barry Matthew, on e-mail

Arundhati Roy seems to come out of the woodwork whenever there’s a Muslim in trouble with the law. Where was she when the Shankaracharyas were arrested? Or when a Muslim mafia don kidnapped a Hindu woman and forcibly married her? Or Kashmiri Pandits were being ethnic-cleansed in Kashmir? Or when Al Qaeda carries out its killings? Like Shabana Azmi once said of the Imam that she’d pay to airdrop him on the Taliban-ruled Afghanistan, wish we could do the same for Ms Roy.
P.R.R. Van Chirama, New York, US

I want to thank Ms Roy from the bottom of my heart for restricting her piece to just two pages. I know it must have taken her a lot of effort not to use sentence constructions as meandering as the Brahmaputra but she deserves a Booker all by itself for this splendid effort. Bravo Ms Roy. Next time try a single page.
Vikas Chowdhry, Madison, US

After the Indian Supreme Court made it clear to the Booker winner that she was a mere citizen in front of the court, she launched a jehad against the courts. In her articles and interviews, she’d pass snide remarks against the apex court and paint judges as evil and corrupt. I’m glad Geelani’s release has restored her faith in the Indian judiciary.
B. Bhattacharya, Morrisville, US

Ms Roy admits that she is a member of the All India Defence Committee for S.A.R. Geelani. No wonder her arguments are as biased as the people she accuses of so-called fabrication.
Srinivas Karanama, Atlanta, US

On the one hand, Arundhati Roy sets the bar for evidence so high that she wants us to believe that we do not know who planned the Parliament attack. On the other she feels under no obligation to apply that bar to herself, and freely casts aspersions on Delhi Police, without offering any evidence of their involvement in the Geelani affair. Are Booker winners privileged to wear hypocrisy on their sleeves? Roy’s argument is as phoney as her ownership of the Pachmarhi reserved forest villa that the courts restored to their original owners: the people of India.
V. Rajan, Chennai

Could Arundhati Roy please answer a simple question—why was Geelani talking to militants on his cellphone before the attack on Parliament? Of course, this does not prove him guilty but then how many of us talk to militants on the cellphone?
Tarun Puri, Fort Wayne, US

I’ve always believed that if you are rich or famous, then whatever you say becomes instant thought for the day. So it is with La Roy. She takes full advantage of her position to babble on. And anyone who dares go against her grain is immediately dubbed cynical, rightist or that ultimate weapon in these oh-so-secular times—communal.
Yugal Joshi, Delhi

And to answer your question, Ms Roy, no, we did not all pull the trigger, one of Mr Geelani’s terrorist mates did and it’s a pity he did not succeed. Better luck to him next time.
Arjun Mattoo, New Delhi

Everything in India isn’t as bad as Arundhati Roy makes it out to be. Yes, the country has its weaknesses but we have to get over them, and not by belittling the country or its people. Sounding holier-than-thou certainly doesn’t help.
Ravi Kumar, Turku, Finland

"I’m not in the business of making unsubstantiated
allegations"—Ms Roy; "I’m not a crook"—Richard Nixon.
K. Moolchandani, San Diego, US