T. Narayan
American Evangelists
Counting Sheep?
The proselytising zeal of American missionaries knows no slack even in tsunami aid
Are American Christian evangelists using the devastation wreaked by the tsunami to spread the word of God—their God? Disturbing stories from the region and fund-raising appeals from religious leaders in the US who want to "plant Christian principles as early as possible" in the orphans of Indonesia, Sri Lanka and India have raised profound questions about proselytisation of vulnerable people in times of tragedy.
 
 
"What an incredible opportunity God's giving us to provide bibles for the Bhojpuri," exults a World Help statement.
 
 
Some groups send help along with Bibles—in Bhojpuri—to increase the fold in affected countries, making it harder for others to provide relief. By lacing help with questions of faith, however delicately, evangelical groups can deepen religious faultlines at a time when talk of civilisational wars rages in e-chat rooms.

The controversy surfaced earlier this month when Vernon Brewer, president of the Virginia-based missionary group World Help, told journalists he wanted to airlift 300 'tsunami orphans' from Banda Aceh to raise them in a Christian children's home. He quickly retracted when the Indonesian government banned adoptions by non-Muslim groups. From India surfaced a story about Samanthapettai, a fishing village in Tamil Nadu hit by the tsunami, where some Christian missionaries reportedly refused to distribute biscuits and water unless the Hindu recipients agreed to change their faith. When TV reporters approached the nuns, they refused to comment and left.

Local missionaries in India and other non-Christian countries are funded to a large extent by resource-rich American groups—powerful multi-million dollar corporations complete with TV channels and private planes. The websites, updated with fervent appeals for funds and tearful photos of tsunami survivors, are a window to their incredible organisation and explicit agendas for touching the "unreached people" or non-Christians with the hand of God. They look at India and Indonesia as "opportunities" for spreading the gospel.
 
 
Franklin Graham thinks samaritan's purse in India is "bringing the gospel to thousands living in spiritual darkness".
 
 
India is often described as a land of darkness, of idol worshippers and an area ripe for redemption.

World Help has printed 1,00,000 Bibles in Bhojpuri, a language it glibly assumes was hidden from evangelists. "Imagine a group of 90 million people who have never been able to read God's Word in their own language until just recently. What an incredible opportunity God is giving us to provide Bibles for the Bhojpuri for the very first time!" declares its mission statement. (Not quite an accurate claim: Bible work in Bhojpuri is nearly a century old in India, even older if you count work targeted at the diaspora.) Yet, the statement goes on: "Our strategy for the next seven years is to plant 1,00,000 organised churches and 1 million house churches in the least-reached area of the world...specifically in the North India(n) state of Uttar Pradesh." This January, World Help is sending a mission to India "where God is overcoming hundreds of years of false religions and idol worship. In...Allahabad alone, 40,000 new believers now meet weekly to worship the one true God."

Another group, Samaritan's Purse, has also energised around the tsunami tragedy. Headed by Franklin Graham, son of presidential godman Billy Graham, this North Carolina-based group's helicopter is helping ferry victims from inaccessible areas. Graham, who appears on his website in a leather jacket more suited to Mick Jagger, called Islam an "evil and wicked" religion after the 9/11 attacks.
 
 
"(Such) proselytisation demeans conversion, for it uses helplessness to spread a religion," says Prof Ashutosh Varshney.
 
 
While organising relief for the tsunami victims, Graham told The Baltimore Sun, "If we are going to depend on Muslims to go in and help Muslims, well, they aren't coming." He publicly hoped the victims and their kin "would come to know the God I know", which to some was an admission of the larger purpose. He has left for Indonesia with a planeload of relief supplies.

Graham sees India as a "vast subcontinent" where Samaritan's Purse projects are "helping bring the gospel to thousands living in spiritual darkness". However, Don Norrington, a spokesman for Graham, told Outlook that proselytisation, which he called an "inflammatory word", was not the group's policy. Currently, it is working in partnership with local Indian affiliates to rebuild a fishing village. The strategy allows US groups to maintain a safe distance from "conversions" while local groups do the work. But the 2003 annual report of Samaritan's Purse announces that in India it "completed 10 church buildings, with another four under construction, and provided support for pastors, Bible schools, Christian schools and a daycare centre".

Mission statements are generally explicit about their goals. Samaritan's Purse says it "serves the Church worldwide to promote the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ". The World Help website, which opens with a heart-wrenching photo of a crying Indian woman, lists its mission as "effective evangelism, discipleship, church planting, humanitarian aid, child sponsorship, leadership training and literature distribution". A specific appeal, scrubbed clean last week from the site, sought help to place Indonesian orphans so "their faith in Christ could become the foothold to reach the Aceh people".

"This kind of proselytisation demeans the idea of religious conversion, for it uses helplessness to spread a religion," says Ashutosh Varshney, political science professor at Michigan University. "A genuine change in conviction remains the best basis for religious conversion and should not be stopped. Few people in abysmal distress can exercise sound judgement."

John Hare, a professor at the Yale University's school of divinity, says in general Christian groups regard providing relief as part of Christian service. "They don't make a distinction between relief and spreading the gospel. But if they're using aid as leverage in acceptance of the gospel, it is inconsistent with what Christians believe," he said. Sid Balman, a spokesman for InterAction, a coalition of 160 US relief organisations which raised nearly $200 million for tsunami aid, said its charter doesn't prohibit proselytisation but does ask members to respect local norms and abide by laws. Asked how they monitored member groups, Balman said the "only way it would work is if someone complained", an unlikely prospect unless another organised religion gets into the act. At least 30 per cent of the groups in InterAction are faith-based, some Jewish and Muslim.

When religious passions are high, it's important to analyse the role of all religious fundamentalists. While Muslim extremists are commonly denounced in the US media, Christian hardliners are rarely challenged. Leading evangelists routinely smear other religions, specially Islam, on mainstream networks and still receive grants from President George Bush. Jerry Falwell, founder of Moral Majority, called Prophet Mohammad "a terrorist" on CBS on October 6, 2002. The insult sparked a riot all the way out in Solapur, India, killing eight people and injuring 90 others.

At a time when America is increasingly viewed as waging a war against the Muslim world, hateful speech and charity with an ambiguous agenda from zealous Christians can only add to the tension.
 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Mar 28, 2005 12:00 AM
125
I am deeply committed to secularism and religious pluralism in India. I risked my life and my health doing investigative work in Gujarat post-Godhra, and my stance against casteism, imperialism and racism in all its forms is unflinching. I speak as a concerned, secular, leftist Indian. The most aggressive and wealthy evangelical Christian organizations today are American Protestant groups – who I will call the McEvangelists. The influence of McEvangelists on US domestic and international policy is tremendous. It is also a deeply conservative influence - anti-poor, racially discriminatory, anti-woman, anti-environment, pro-war and restrictive of civil liberties. Progressive leftists in the US are as alarmed about the rise and reach of McEvangelist groups as are progressive Indians about the Sangh Parivar. I hope investigative work brings to light the funding connections between McEvangelist groups and a whole range of unsavoury corporate interests that put the lives of the world’s poor multitudes at severe risk. Groups that have vociferously supported a racist, anti-poor war-criminal like G. W. Bush should not be embraced by those taking a stance against racism and abuse of power in India. I hope the Christians of India will be careful to separate the wheat from the chaff in its support of missionary groups.
Tinkers
Philadelphia, United States
Feb 11, 2005 12:00 AM
124
I spoke earlier, how CPI leader AB Bardhan spoke against COnversion. Yesterday, CPIM's WB state Unit has come out against these Missionaries during the 18th State COnference.

awaken_bharat
Mumbai, India
Feb 10, 2005 12:00 AM
123
Thoughts echoed very eloquently by "JAAGO MERE DESH" in his letter dated 27 Jan, 2005.
Once again, what is needed is not just to reject such despicable acts by evangelists, but also to think about ways to better reform our country's moral and cultural fabric, so that it is strong enough to withstand such evangelical attempts, but is tolerant towards other moderate religious views.
Such vigorous debate and sometimes testy responses to her article, must surely give Seema Sirohi a lot of journalistic satisfaction. I like reading her articles because I of the critical issues she addresses and the way she presents them, or maybe because they tell me what I want to hear! Thank you nonetheless, Seema!
Deepak Sharma
Philadelphia, USA
Feb 09, 2005 12:00 AM
122
>>The best thing for these American evangelists >>to do would be to airlift all those they have >>converted straight to America and take charge >>of their food, livelihood and shelter.
>>Sastri V., Hyderabad

The country will be emptied very quickly because the very likes of Sastri V from Hyderabad will be the first to stand in line to get out!!!!
Thinking_Man
usa, United States
Feb 07, 2005 12:00 AM
121
What a shame that Outlook chose to print Mercy Fernandes' distinctly biased letter in respone to Seema Sirohi's article, "Counting Sheep", without printing a fitting riposte from another reader. Mercy is one of those that these disgusting evangalists converted in India, and left behind to carry-on their disreputable business of what else but, counting sheep!
Oh, what a shame we have such pesudo-secularists running this magazine!
Deepak Sharma
Philadelphia, USA
Jan 30, 2005 12:00 AM
120
Brother Sameer Bhandari,

Why don't you read some serious Commentators, writers, historians instead of exposing your horrible fundamentals? Please excuse us at this forum, which is supposed to be for informed people, discussing real issues. We don't have any time to discuss the "Missionary work to make India Civilized". Hindutva is Brahmanism. And all these constructs of Brahmanism, Hinduism is a crap etc.

Today, there is a voluminous discourse available today, how these constructs came into being in last 200 years. Who made them, how they came into being, what were the ideas behind these constructs. Freedom of Speech is NOT free-ticket for denigrating some culture with a racist intention. Hope you control yourself, and be "informed" before writing these craps into a Public forum.

There is a creative, venturesome rethink of Issues of Race, language, Caste, Education and whole lot others in British Colonial Understanding of India. Many famous historians have contributed into that. If you are not aware, let us know. We surely can help you out from your "colonized Mind”.
Bhaskar
Delhi, India
Jan 30, 2005 12:00 AM
119
Sorry if I sound personal,but going thorugh the crap of this person named "KAYRAO",I am convinced that surely this guy is confused while attempting to spit venom against all Hindus.I wonder if he/she thinks that:
1)All Brahmins are bad are bad.
1)All uppercastes are bad .
3)All obcs+forward castes are bad.
4)All hindu SCs and STs are bad.
5)All missionaries are very Humane.

I think he actually has been assigned taks of trying to prove #5 and for that trying various crap arguments from #1-#4.
Common KAYRAO tell us about your exact objectives.
Jaago Mere Desh
In, India
Jan 29, 2005 12:00 AM
118
I think you guys are barking at the wrong tree. Agreed that evangelicals adopt a variety of ways to convert people to their faith, agreed that they took advantage of destitute in tsunami but Christian evangelicals should be the least of our worries. At the end of the day, they offer food and service and don’t blow up people, don’t plant serial bombs across a city and do not burn people alive in their train bogies.

Our main concern should be the rapid rise of Muslim population in India, the fact that politicians are allowing vast infiltration of illegal Muslims from Bangladesh, the fact that if we reach a critical mass in terms of Muslim population we might be forced to see yet another partition of the country.
Vikas Chowdhry
Madison, USA
Jan 29, 2005 12:00 AM
117
To all Dalits, So called Low castes, tribals. Its time to quit the hindu fold. Do you expect that one day you will be made the priests and bhramins will carry night soil on their head or drag dead bodies. It will never happen. Whatever we may do there will never be any respect for us in that religion.

Just look at these people. They wail,cry,shout, howl that we have taken eveything from them because of reservations (while hardly any reserved category positions are ever filled) They dont see that 90% of all posts are occupied by bhramins
Their greatest man ever born .. the great mahatama gandhi went on a fast to death against the paltry political rights we had won under the communal award.
Will such people ever accomodate us. Never. Its a hopless religion... Want respect.. want to walk erect. quit... or remain slaves and lick bhramin feets.. carry shit on your head. thats what you deserve if you remain Hindus.
kayrao
Mumbai, India
Jan 29, 2005 12:00 AM
116
HOw come the very people who called Outlook as a shit magazine when it published facts on Murderer seer are suddenly praising it when an article of their liking has been published.
kayrao
Mumbai, India
Jan 29, 2005 12:00 AM
115
The Missonaries have been doing selfless service for the past 200 plus years in India and the social infrasture which they have raised is enaough to put any govt to shame and here we are not talking about nuisnasical spoilsports like the RSS ,VHP and co. The amount of work done by the missionaries among the tribals , dalits and more importantly the poor of india is a reason enough to say that mother india owes a legislation to counter all the anti-missonary activities by the RSS and the VHP .
Thats brings to another aspect of the so-called conversion propaganda spread by the Sangh pariwaar . The Sangh pariwat claims that they have also done a good amount of work among the tribals through the aegis of the Vanvasi Kalyan Ashram.But i would like to ask a simple question whatever so-called work by them is strictly because they have a genuine concern for the tribals etc etc or it is just ploy to counter the so-called "conversions " allegedly by the missionaries ???
I think the funadamental duty towards the tribals , dalits etc etc was on the Sangh parivar which because of the inherent crap "brahmanical "notions (i wont call them Hindu because Hinduism and Brahmanism are 2 totally contrasting concepts) they failed to do and miserably at that . The "icing on the cake " after this fauilure is the repeated attacks made on the missonaries by the Sangh pariwar and thier cohorts .
The biggest reason why the RSS inspite of the so-called "representating " of the majority in India has no takers is that what the majority of the Indians ,cutting across the religions , follow the hindu way of life( as the Supreme court has rightly observed ) while the "HIndutva" of the RSS is nothing but "brahmanism" at its crudest and in the most rotten of forms .
No wonder then that inpsite of 75 plue years of existence the RSS is still on the friges of not only the Social but political scene in India.
I have an advise for all the Sudarshans , Raam Madhavs and the all 1 1/2 intelligensia of the RSS.They should learn thier lesson and fast and either take a primary membership of the CPI or better still enroll themselves in the Congrees sevadal !!!!!!!!!!!!
P.S: The totally unwarranted , juvenile ,moronish and borderig around mongrelism type of venom poured on the Legendary Dr.Ambedkar by some scum of the earth here, is a testimony to the fact that how the khaki knickers are in a urgent need of guantanamo asylum !!!!!!!!!!!!
Sameer Bhandari
Mumbai, India
Jan 29, 2005 12:00 AM
114
SAMEER BHANDARI: "Also, i think it is high time some legislation (as somebody here has suggested ) by the Govt to safaguard the interests of the missionaries. The missionaries are the embodiment of selfless service and it is something the RSS ahould learn from the missionaries".
"Missionaries really by thier selfless service have made India a civilised place to live in ."

The funninest Logic I have ever heard. In one place you said: "interests of missionaries should be protected". And then you say: "Missionaries are Embodiments of selfless Service"! What exactly is, protecting interests of those who are self-less? When Indian Marxists oppose RSS, they don't do it for protecting Missionary interests! Infact, many have spoken in Public against missionary activies in Tribal belt, like Mr. A.B. Bardhan of CPI.

Brother, your last comment is pure & simple racism. There were time during British Period when you could have been spared for saying this. If you do it in person today, you may have to be admitted to Hospital!

You are a perfect Colonized Man who used Modernism, Rationality to develop racist theories!
Bhaskar
Delhi, India
Jan 29, 2005 12:00 AM
113
Kudos again to Outlook.Surely such a truth would have never been exposed by the editors like half Irish Pronoy Roy.
Jaago Mere Desh
In, India
Jan 29, 2005 12:00 AM
112
Firsttly its outrageous in any case if the missionaries,who were given permission to operate due to the Tsunami tragedy,act in such a fundamentalist manner so as to ask the victims to convert to get relief.I think media should have brought them to justice but alas only outlook could do it.
Secondly I am appalled to see that some people are,instead of citizing the evil deeds of missionaries attacking Brahmins (another plot of missionaries to create a wedge between different castes).True,there needs to be more done to remove caste oppression but remmember that Hinduism has been continuosly reforming since begining.Dont trust these missionaries,they will first tell us that Brahmins are bad.Then they'll tell lower castes that all upper castes are bad.Then they'll ask dalits to see all other castes as thier oppressors(even though we have gloious example of Lord Shri Ram eating half eaten bers of Shabri).Finally they'll say that tribals are not Hindus(Kevat was a tribal who has been one of the main heroes in Ramayana).Dont trust these bigots.Ghar ko tod kar doosron ki na suno mere doston!!
Jaago Mere Desh
In, India
Jan 29, 2005 12:00 AM
111
The "believers" have to indulge in a lot of mental jugglery to explain simple day-to-day events to themselves it seems. Who the hell is "God" to do anything to anyone anyway? Medieval superstition!
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Jan 28, 2005 12:00 AM
110
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan,
sorry for my poking my nose in your letter and also to Editor and executive editor.
How do you feel converting from shrestas to Pereiras after 145 years of your first ancestor
Are you very happy being konkani christian than being by Goan christian . Like we never see the exact end of river into sea .we can never see the reality by portugese sea farer's real intentions.
As far as anybody is concerned , religion and education are different paths. See for myself being hindu I have a good education in India in english medium.What do you feel after conversion by your ancestors, status got improved and be treated equally by Queen Elizabeth, Prince charles,or British PM Tony Blair, are you able shake your hands or eat a dinner in a same table .
I don't think so. Because I feel that Status or position or rank or culture is akin to Caste misunderstood concept given by Portugese invaders in west coast during 1700s time period. so what's your sincere thought.
Rama
NJ, United States
Jan 28, 2005 12:00 AM
109
Measured by the number of pages that this dialogue has absorbed, at the heart is the fact that religion does concern most. I do not think I should enter the fray given that my ancestors were converted from Shreshtas to Pereiras in the year 1860 in Mulki, South Kanara.

Suffice it to say that religion is and has been a marketable commodity since time immemorial and there is nothing one can do to reverse the trend.

Peter from Lahore, do you have anything to say?
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jan 28, 2005 12:00 AM
108
Vikas
-------

Most Europeans have abandoned formal religion eg christianity. Churches are empty, and the whole
religious apparatus is kept going by state subsidies.

So Christian missionaries are now concentrating
their efforts on India and the developing world.
In these poor countries more people can be enrolled to the true faith with least amount of
capital.

Its not unlike western tobacco companies who are now trying to expand in the third world, because of increasing resiatance to smoking in the west.

I am sure most people would welcome social work
by missionaries, but not the cynical economic help in return for joining a new religion.
India needs social development but not more religion. of any kind. Religions of all kinds are resulting in misery, supersticion and fanaticism .
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Jan 28, 2005 12:00 AM
107
I think the Govt should ban the RSS and the VHP immediately they are a very bad influence on the psyche of the society. These organistions are creating a coward race out of the indians. They should be banned .Also, i think it is high time some legislation (as somebody here has suggested ) by the Govt to safaguard the interests of the missionaries. The missionaries are the embodiment of selfless service and it is something the RSS ahould learn from the missionaries.Not everything is to be done for votes only .As for the RSS , the following are the excerpts from a brilliant article by Stnaley Wolpert the authority on Right wing indian politics and the one who knows the colour of the right wing underwear!!!!

"The RSS claims to be the greatest embodiment of nationalism in India.The people of this country would like to know which movements were launched by the RSS before 1947 , to free india from the british ????
wHO amongst its leaders and cadres suffered repression under the colonial rule ???
Who amongst them went to jail or become martyrs for the cause of the freedom of India ??Any patriot of the country is bound to receive the shock of the life after reading the following narrtaives of Golwalkar about the different phases of the Indian freedom movement;

"There is another reason for the need of always remaining involved in the routine work. There is some unrest in the mind due to the siatuation developing in the country from time to time . There was such unrest in 1942.Before that there was the movement in 1930-31.At that time many other people had gone to Doctorji(i.e.Dr.Hedgewar)This delegation requested Dr ji that this movement will give independence and Snagh shuold not lag behind.At that time , when a gentlememan told dr ji that he was ready to go to jail, Drji said "Difinitely go.But who will look after your family then??That gentleman told that he has suffciently arranged resorces not only to run the family expenses for 2 years but also pay fines according to the requirements .Then Dr.Ji said to him if you have fully arranged for the resources then come out to work for the sangh for 2 years ". After returning home that gentleman niether went to jail nor came out to work for the sangh ".
The incident clearly shows that the RSS leadership was bent upon demolarising the honest patriotic persons to run away from the cause of the freedm movement.
The RSS should imbibe the values and conduct of the missionaries if it has to really make a mark in India. Missionaries really by thier selfless service have made India a civilised place to live in .
Sameer Bhandari
Mumbai, India
Jan 28, 2005 12:00 AM
106
Rahul Malviya, you almost got me there, before I realised what it is!! Standing ovation for your brilliant piece, and this one is sincere, not belonging to the genre you have chosen. You are right, let's be saved and salvaged by the carriers of the word of God like they have been in Philippines and Africa.
Subir Nag
Mumbai, India
Jan 28, 2005 12:00 AM
105
Dear Outlook,

I logged onto your esteemed site after a long time and what do I see - Vitriol, innuendo and cheap verbal shenanigans by Hindutva-waadis, anti-seculars and other assorted anti-Indira people. Make no mistakes about it; Gospel is the true world of God. It is being rightly propagated and spread in our nation by selfless missionaries who are doing their utmost to remove spiritual darkness from this murderous land of deceit, caste tyranny and idol worship. In the process if they harvest a few souls, why should Hindus cry foul?

Hear hear! Time is not far when the vast multitudes of this ancient nation bid adieu to their cannibalistic, tribal and satanic faiths and embrace God, His son and the Holy Spirit. Truly enlightened and religiously resuscitated, our nation will then move to join the league of first world nations like US, UK and Italy. The demise of unsavoury faiths like Hinduism will bring us in-sync with the progressive, modernistic and liberal outlook of the sole super-power of the world. No more would our girls be afflicted by the fetters of modesty and pompous religiosity - one-third would become unwed mothers before they reach teen-age. No more would our kids try to gratify their infantile curiosities by enrolling in institutes of higher learning and sailing across the seas to get educated - majority would drop out after high-school and serve in the nearest Mac franchise. No more would our cabinet meetings be lack-lustre and atheistic - they'll begin with a prayer to the true God and ministers will have to quote from the true book to prove their points.

So,
bring it on Benny Hinn,
bring it on Jerry Falwell.
We,
the inhabitants of the dark land,
have waited for too long.
Rahul Malviya
Bangalore, India
Jan 28, 2005 12:00 AM
104
Mahisha,

If what you are saying is true and if it is your personal experience, then I urge you to write to your local TV stations and newspapers in LA area.

Ask them to cover this aspect of tsunami as well. Christian evangelism is a hot button political topic on the landscape right now and I am sure if you persist than stories like this will be pursued in mainstream US media.
Vikas Chowdhry
Madison, USA
Jan 28, 2005 12:00 AM
103
F*** *** Kayrao and people like him !! I lost a dear friend in the tsunami and his children were refused help by these bloody white cladded monsters till I went and met his mother and three kids. F*** y***
Mahisha
Los Angeles, United States
Jan 28, 2005 12:00 AM
102
I really admire these christian missionaries. They stand on ones doorstep and tell the person on their face that what religion they are following is all wrong. How can these missionaries even dare do to do such a thing?!!!!

They can refuse help to a dying person , and offer it only when they accept to convert to christianity. What kind of cruel teachings do they follow?

I plainly admire thses christians.

Mahisha
Los Angeles, United States
Jan 28, 2005 12:00 AM
101
Wow SUBIR NAG! That was a whirlwind tour of world phlosophies. Good writeup!
shapra
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 28, 2005 12:00 AM
100
All these angry outburst against Hinduism are just side-tracking the main issue raised by this article.

Are Christian Missionaries justified in saying: Here's the aid; but you first convert. [Here doggy, doggy, roll on the floor, I will give you a bone]
shapra
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 28, 2005 12:00 AM
99
Inequality is the soul of Hinduism.

To the Untouchables, Hinduism is a veritable chamber of horrors. The iron law of caste, the heartless law of karma and the senseless law of status by birth are veritable instruments of torture, which Hinduism has forged against the Untouchables.

There is a great difference between Buddhism and Hinduism. Buddhism means casteless society based on equal rights. Hinduism on the other hand is primarily based on caste system; a system which encourages aloofness, inequality and exploitation.

Unlike Hinduism, Buddhism lays no emphasis on the attainment of heaven. Nor it is necessary. To be happy in the present life, one should practice the ethics of morality, nonviolence (ahimsa), equality and universal brotherhood. This is an eternal truth taught by the Buddha.

Caste System is not merely a division of labour. It is also a division of labourers. It is an hierarchy in which the divisions of labourers are graded one above the other.
Caste has killed public spirit. Caste has destroyed the sense of public charity. Caste has made public opinion impossible. Virtue has become caste ridden and morality has become castebound. There is no sympathy to the deserving. There is no appreciation of the meritorious.
There cannot be a more degrading system of social organisation than the Chaturvarna. It is the system which deadens, paralyses and cripples the people from helpful activity. Caste in the hands of the orthodox has been a powerful weapon for persecuting the reforms and for killing all reform.
These castes are antinational. In the first place because they bring about separation in social life. They are anti-national also because they generate jealousy and antipathy between caste and caste.
The Caste system is a system which is infested with the spirit of isolation and in fact it makes isolation of one Caste from another a virtue.

Netala
Washington DC, USA
Jan 28, 2005 12:00 AM
98
Do Indians really have freedom to choose? May be the lower-caste Hindus have more freedom to choose a religion than the Brahmins. Does a brahmin really have the strength to open himself or herself to freedom of thought, questioning and action? No, they don't. They are scared. Hence they are instigating the lower-caste Hindus against Christians. The lower-caste Hindus are fighting among themselves and engaging in terrorising their own who is taking the courage to practice his/her freedom of choice. So much about the holier than thou religion of Hinduism. As far as I'm concerned, I'm not religious and do not believe in any God. However, I do believe in my personal freedom to choose. What is Outlook trying to preach in this article? Be MY sheep instead of HIS. Right? That a bloody fake intellectualism. It's about FREEDOM and not RELIGION.
Raj
Chicago, USA
Jan 28, 2005 12:00 AM
97
Care India,
I want to reply to what Care India on this message board.

You are quintessential Hindu mind. For you they are filthy and untouchable. That is why Hindus can never reform their religion. It is what they hang on to get edge. You do not want to change any thing and maintain status quo. You can not think rational when they want to change their heart. It’s freewill that decides what they want to do with their religion. It is a choice every one should have, no one should mess with freedoms of every being. If they want to covert, they will. No force on earth can stop this. But people like you can not digest this. Because you want to hang on to your domination using whatever tricks you can play. Your priorities are far different from some 400-500 million people of India. You don’t get it b’cus you just want to ignore them. This is not about conversions and Christianity. It’s about having freedom to choose what they want to do with their religion. No one should mess with it.What did you say about DR.BR, he talked trash and was not the smartest guy. At least he did not get away from what needed to be done. He transformed hundreds of millions of families in India. That is what he did with his mind and vision. He set the direction and tone for how we function as a country. He was ages ahead of you and generations. You just do not get it. Our constitution has all the teeth you need, but who implements them is the point. It is we the people have to make sure they are implemented. We have solid books and need to make sure they are followed. Any constitution is workable and that is what we have. We have Lawmakers breaking the very law they wrote and took oath to. How could you spit venom trashing one of the greatest reformers of any time. This shows what kind of person you are. You do not care what they ( hundreds of millions) go through to meet their ends.
Tagore
Richmond, United States
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
96
A 2 page article could generate 14 pages of debate is remarkable. Perhaps best achievement for Ms. Sirohi since she started publishing her opinions. Whether debate itself was a healthy and an objective one is a moot point. I think save a few, most were happy to let emotion talk.
One pointer to Subir on his thoughts. Hellenic version was indeed codified and printed before Alexander thought he should rewrite Greek mythology. Strange ways eh! Question however boils down to your distinction between core principles (which evolve) and rites and rituals. Greeks has been living next door to Alexander's lineage for centuries and they haven't changed. We are a bit far from the evangelists of the US. Their farce is even a matter of great contempt amongst Europeans as they always moan about American churches changing Bible to fit their inerpretation of life (something less on principles and more on rhetoric). Debate goes on...
Prabhat Misra
Lucknow, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
95
Ultimately there are two governing schools in the hall of religions.

One is the "Middle Eastern" school. Which is devoid of spiritualism, deeper philosophies, introspections and existential questions. These relgions are simple to follow, has few tenets, very defined one scripture for each religion and run on dictats. They are also figthing among each other for world domination and they are Islam and Christianity.

The other is the "Oriental" philosphy. Religions based on these are profound and address deeper existential dilemma of the nascent and transient world of the human beings. And they are not fighting each other for world domination through either terrorsim or proselytisation.

Unfortunately the Helenic philosophy never got translated into a relgion, otherwise we would have a "Western" religion.

People do mistake rites and rituals as religions. Actually, at the core is the philosophy or the principle. Around that are some practices which manifests as religion. But the fact is all religions are parcaticed differently in different parts of the country. Isalam in Morocco, Wahabis is Saudi, Vohras and Bahai's in India are distinctly different in a lot of ways. Similarly, the Greek Orthodox Church, Russian Church, mormons and methodists in US, Catholic Syrian Churches are way too different from each other. And for a Tamil Bramhin, a Bengali Bramhin might as well be a muslim, especially if the eating habits are concerened. People like Kayrao (who is a beter opponent to talk to compared to moronic Mercy Fernandes or Pawan Joshi) attack Hinduism for certain practices, casteism being one of them. But they do not realise that castesim is not at all related to the spiritual principle of what is termed as Hindusim. Castesim is a social structure postulated in one social treatise by Manu and then given legitimacy by all subsequent the political powers (starting from Lord Ram to Lord Mountbattaen) for just and unjust reasons.

The essence of Hinduism is extremely monotheistic as the Advaitavad (monism) propounds. Subsequent improvisatios, like Dvaitavad (Dualism), Vishistvadvaitavad (Special Dualism, like Special Relativity) and explanations like "Sakar Brahm" and "Niarakar Brahm" by mysticques like Shri Ramakrishna, are attempts to water down this philosphy to make it within the grasp of lesser mortals. The principle of detatchment (karmanye badhikaraste ma phaleshu ...) is again at the core of oriental philosphy. Zen buddhism talks at length of acion without action and being an observer not a participant.

Oriental philosophies are deep, complex and requires high level of intellectual or philosphical prowess. And they are not aggresively proselytising. While the "Middle Eastern" are naive, easy to follow and vying for world domination. It is easy to foresee, that in terms of numbers which will win the day. But did some moron talk about truth? Well, she was right for once that there can't be two truths, even if the attainer (as opposed to a moronic believer) of the truth is outnumbered


An afterword - Communism, which was a total failure as a socio economic theory, perhaps did a right thing in banning public practice of religion. See the effect of such stupidity. I have wasted presious 25 minutes in drafting this!! Silly me. Casting perals in fron of swines.
Subir Nag
Mumbai, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
94

Tribals and low caste Indians should all leave Hinduism. Hindus exploited us for 10,000 years by manipulating. They are still doing it. Using us for riots. 98% of Bajrang Dal members are low-caste Hindus. It's we who do the killing and live with the consequences. The Brahmins enjoy the fruits. At the end of the riots, we are still the low-caste hindu living as dogs to the upper-caste Hindus. Think about it. At the end of the day, we touch the Brahmins feet for blessings. They don't touch ours to thank us for the killing we do for their war. How many tribals have grown to develop a spine of their own as Hindus? We are not even Hindu in the first place. we are termed as a tribal or low caste. We will remain as a kol for the rest of your lives and the lives of our great-grand children unless we stop ourselves from being used by the cunning Brahmins, BJP, VHP and RSS. Name a tribal dominated district where tribals are well off and are not living like animals. You can't name one. We have been living this way for 10,000 years because Brahmins want us to live that way. Survive by eating rats and wild roots in the forests. Why do you think the Vanavasi Kalyan Ashram has sudden love for us? Its because they are afraid of losing their position if we convert to Christianity. What were they doing for 10,000 years? How many children of yours have been taught English by them? They send their own kids to missionary schools for better education. How many 'Hindu' tribals/ low catse are in the software industry? It has nothing to do with religion. It's about our personal dignity and life. Want to live the rest of your life as a low caste kol? Join Bajrang Dal and lick the Brahmin’s dirty feet

You idiots still call yourselves Hindus and die in hundreds in a stampede. It's not a Hindu vs Muslim or Hindu vs Christian issue. It's a cunning Brahmin vs the rest of Hindus issue. Where will these cunning Brahmins be if there are no Kurmis like Modi, Katiyar, Uma Bharati or Kalyan Singh to do their dirty work? You need to see the ploy and stop being used by these people.
Leave the Hindu religion. There is no hope for us in it. Embrace a religion that can give you pride and respect and absorb you in its fold. It doesn’t matter if it is Buddhism or Christianity or even Islam. Either way we will be better off. Stop believing that Hindus will ever reform themselves and accept you. It has never happened and will never happen no matter how much you try. Hinduism is the CURSE on humanity.
(Passages taken/modified from GSRAL, Law of the Land)
kayrao
Mumbai, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
93
the words of Kranti below, sums up his culture.. dirty hindu culture. If you people are so concerned about preserving tribal culture then please go ahead and become tribals.
We find no hope in your shit religion. We have no intention of continuing live pathetic, third class lives under the dominance of Bhramins and caste hindus. Hindu religion can never give us pride. Even After fighting for decades to gain respect in the hindu fold, hindus still refuse become good citizens and absorb us. What religion to embrace is our own choice and we know the right from the wrong. We dont need Haramees like you to tell us that you are great. You are bloodsuckers.
kayrao
Mumbai, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
92
Below is the actual quote of Karl Marx. Some people have been misquoting/quoting only half of it.

"If religion is the soul of soulless conditions, the heart of the heartless world and the opium of the people, then Buddhism, certainly is not such a religion. If religion is meant a system of deliverance from the ills of life, then Buddhism is the religion of religions."
kayrao
Mumbai, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
91
The below is a Quote by Babasaheb on Buddshism. Hes decision was never political. He simply selected the best religion on earth for his people.

"The first point, which marks off Buddha from the rest,
is his self-abnegation. JESUS insists that he is the Son of God. MOHAMMED
went a step further. He claimed that he was the messenger of God on earth
and insisted that he was the last messenger. KRISHNA went a step beyond both
Jesus and Mohammed. He claimed that he was "Parameshwar"- the God of Gods.
BUDDHA never arrogated to himself any such status. He was born a son of man
and was content to remain a common man and preached his gospel as a common
man. Jesus, Mohammed and Krishna claimed for themselves a role of
MOKSHADATA. Buddha was satisfied with playing the role of MARGADATA. "
kayrao
Mumbai, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
90
"The good work done by RSS , VHP and the mutt" my foot and my a*** too. The above are the most sophisticated cabal of the third gender in the civilised world.All the social ailments which the Indian populace finds itself are whole sole beacause of the deeds of these cowards. I think the amount and the scale of the social infrastructure which the missionaries have developed in India is a reason itself that the RSS , VHP and the mutt should prostrate before Jesus.
After all the misdeeds of the Seer and his sexual escapades it is clear that all the above people always are doing the naatak of religion .Mutt was and is a haven of sexual orgies. The less said about the RSS and the VHP the better .
Yeah , as one johny has pointed out that missionaries are paedopiles , etc etc etc. well gents black sheeps are everywhere .But in the case of missionaries that is exception rather than a rule but the less said about the Hindu "saints" the better .
In the recent past , STAR NEWS exposed and exclisive footage of the priests of the most reverred swaminarayan temple indulging in sex with a prostitute !!!!!!!!!!!!!
So much for celebacy and all that naatak!!!!!!!!!
Actually the Benny hinn do and the protests of the RSS cowards has one thing fairly and squarely that when it comes for the commitement and integrity towards ones religion and above all upliftement of the downtrodden nobody (lesss to speak about the sex maniac cowards of the Seer & RSS variety ) can hold a candle to the missionaries. All the protests are not only as a result of hyper jealousy but also due to an inherent complex among the Saffron third gender that they simply are no match to the noble works and most importntly the dignified manner of the conduct of the missionaries.

P.S. it is said that the Benny hinn do was the biggest religious gathering as on date by any living religiuos figure in India. No wonder the flood of jealousy !!!!!!!!!!
Pawan Joshi
Agra, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
89
This one appeared in the Times of India. Its for those who are shouting at the top of their voices against christains doing relief work

Dalit Discrimination It’s distressing to read about the discrimination faced by the Dalits in the tsunami relief camps. One thought that in times of crisis, at least, people would forget these horrible manmade differences and come together. Unfortunately this is not the case. We talk of integrating with the world, and here we are not able to integrate with our own people even in the face of a calamity. Indeed, Dalits, all over the country, have to face much humiliation and violation of their human rights. The whole system has become antipoor and anti-weak and Dalits face the brunt. We shouldn’t rely on the government or politicians to end this,
kayrao
Mumbai, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
88
Pawan Joshi,
You are a living example of what conversions can do to people's mind.Did you really says that the MISSONARIES ARE THE BLOOD AnD SOUL OF THE INDIAN LIFE ? I thought, every Indian thought that Hinduism and it's culture and tradition is the soul of INDIA, not some missionary sh*t. You must be coming from a mental institute to write something like that. Is that what your perverted christian friends told you during the conversion process? If that is so, I pity you.
care india
california, USA
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
87
Netala,
Neither am I a witness nor you a commission of enquiry, for me to report matters. Go and look for yourself on the internet about the good work done by RSS, VHP and the mutt. Since you posed as an expert on Christianity and even got quotes on dead people, I am sure you can find this one too. Reading bible, Times Of India, The Hindu, Hindustan Times, Indian Express, CNN, BBC isn't the complete world. Try to read the views, works of other organizations too before getting your ideas straight.

This is my last rejoinder for you. Thanks.
care india
california, USA
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
86
Rohini,

You are correct. Ambedkar chose Buddhism to provide a positive cultural identity to untouchables which is India, which they would have lost if he converted to Christanity/Islam. He rightly understood that ONLY legislation was NOT sufficient to end social discrimination. We in India have made much progress in last 60 years.

But lets also accept, We, the ducated Indians have done precious little to eradicate whatever remants are there. There were many media reports, even after 30 years rule of Marxists in West bengal, caste system was seen in some places. We MUST DO MORE. Thanks
Bhaskar
Delhi, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
85
Pawan Joshi: MISSONARIES ARE THE BLOOD AnD SOUL OF THE INDIAN LIFE ,SUBRACT THE MISSIONARIES AND WHAT U HAVE IS A GREATEST MASS OF ABORIGINES ON EARTH!

Are you sure, you are a sane person who can think? Which books did you read, brother? Please tell us! Let us understand and grasp those as well!

Com Yechuri, Bardhan should understand that they depend on folks like you for "sustaining" Secularism in India. I am deeply troubled for Yechuri/Bardhan's future. ha..ha..
Bhaskar
Delhi, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
84
I think , Dr.Ambedkar did the greatest of Ehsaan on India(or the idea of it ) by converting to buddhism .The fools-cum-buffons of khaki knickered variety will not understand this.For knowing and understanding Ambedkar a very high level of intellect and sensibility is required.Obviously the twice born morons here do not have that.
To Christian missionaries mother india owes her grandest gratitude , but for the noble work of them the indians would not have been better than the Andaman tribals.it is ironical that all the so-called NRI;s frequenting this site, are the foremost in spreading ill-information about the missionaries, since from the same missionary eduacational institutions these morons were eduacated. But of course one cannot blame these morons because to piss in the same plate in which they eaten has always been thier modus operandi, and thats what they are doing here.
The legendary Prabhodhankar Thackeray , the father of Balasaheb Thackeray had said that "Hinduism is like a leaking earthen pot , all the pure water will leak and only waste material will remain" Obviuosly he was referring to the conversions among the hindus at reguular intervals in history & the reasons for that.
And to quote the legendary Nani Palkhiwalla ," Nowhere in the face of the earth shall we find a religion which treats its own brethren with such inhuman manner ".
All the ills are within the hindu religion and coward organisations like the RSS and the VHP do not have the intellectual or physical and most important the will to bring reform in the Hindu religion.
The greatest son of India Dr.Ambedkar was not only exemplary inteallectual but also a visionary .
There is saying in Hindi "Pigs cannot be domesticated by homely food , they have to have thier regulation diet of excreta"!!!!!!!!!
The khakki knickered variety available here proves that especaiallly the "Basher of Islam and whos that Care of India etce etc.

MISSONARIES ARE THE BLOOD AnD SOUL OF THE INDIAN LIFE ,SUBRACT THE MISSIONARIES AND WHAT U HAVE IS A GREATEST MASS OF ABORIGINES ON EARTH!!!!!!

P.S.: I CONGRALUATE THE UPA GOVT ON CONFERRING THE PADMA SHREE ON MRS.GLADYS STAINES. IN FACT THE GOVT SHOULD GO AHEAD AND CONFER THE BHARAT RATNA ON GRAHAM STAINES ,POSTHMOULSLY.ATLEAST THEN , MOTHER INDIA WILL BE MARGINALLY ABLE TO WASH THE CRIMES OF THE HINDU-EUNUCHS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pawan Joshi
Agra, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
83
Sir,
Some people in these columns have quoted Dr.Ambedkhar to justify the Hindus converting to Christianity.But do they know what Ambedkhar has done when he has been offered huge sums to convert to christianity even in the undivided India?He rejected thosetempting offers.Ultimately he chose to convert to buddism,because unlike christianity and islam,buddismhas originated in India.

Butpeople who swear by ambedkhar freely advocate hindus becoming christians!Are they true to the salt of Ambedkhar and hismemory?Are they not simply using ambedkhar*s name as a ploy to cover up their own vested interests?(L.Rohini)
L.ROHINI
tiruchirappalli, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
82
This is from the pages of "Europe Reconsidered", a Book by Prof. Tapan Roychoudhury. He is now looking into History book in place of Romila Thapar and thus a very important historian. Very interesting reading, which opens up a whole new question of Missionaries in India, their outlook of Indian Customs, religions.

"Uninhibited Racism was no monopoly of boxwallahs and planters. In his literary career Bankimchandra Chatterjee felt compelled to challenge an immoderate expression of ethnocentricty on the oart of a high-educated Britisher, the reverend Hastie, Principal of the General Assembly's Institution, run by the Scottish General Missinary Board. The occassion was a funerary ceremony at the Sobha Bazar Raj family residence in Calcutta attended by the leading Hindu Citizens of the metropolis...The Scots missionary wrote an letter to "the Calcutta Statesman" being outraged seeing Hindu Idols....In the letter he described the family Idol as 'a gawky image gilded and adorned to attarct the vulgar eye, but, - like old Marley,'as dead as a door nail', and happily on that account, incomparably less dangerous than the living god would have been..to the virtues of the 3,500 ladies who partook in banquet'. 'As a friend of Hindu Society", he decided to launch a sustained campaign against the "glaring evil of idolatry". But in doing so, he promised to carry with him "all the breadth and tolerance of Christian charity". (page 123)

Yes, this the view of a Highly Educated Britisher with "all the breadth and tolerance of Christian charity"!! Its NOTHING but racism. Pure and Simple. We do hope Prof. Tapan Roychoudhury would correct the History.

Dear Aarti and Netala: Please see the Perversion. Its NOTHING but racism. Its still continuing today. With different forms, different discourse.
Bhaskar
Delhi, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
81
Care India of California,

I like your thoughts about Ambedkar.

The problem with India and Indians is that they tend to put people on the pedestal- whether they deserve to be put there or not. Ambedkar, Nehru, Indira and now- so many of them.

Some are born great, some acquire greatness and on some, greatness is thrust upon.

Many Indian leaders are the last kind. simply for want of better alternatives.

Basher-of-Islam
Mumbai, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
80
"I would like to know what are our VHP ,RSS etc. doing to remove caste oppression from the society?We need strong movements for unity across different castes."

I don't hold any brief for RSS. Guess, Ram Madhav of RSS writes in this very Pages of Outlookinida. and can be looked into. However, as RSS is also a bi-product of Colonial Westernism, they also don't believe in casteism. This Hinduism of Swami Vivekanad, Dayanad, Radhakrishnan and plenty of others have no place for casteism, untouchability.

But I see a irony here. The primary issues of RSS are:

(i) Infiltration of Bangladeshi infiltration,
(ii) Large scale fradulent Christian Conversion,
(iii)Indian History where there are something which Indians can be proud of( Nehru-Gandhi-Tagore were proud Indians who believed in glory of Indian Culture & its astounding heights).
(iv) And lastly Secularism.
(v) Kashmir Policy

Now, every mainstream political party (I repeat Every), are kind of gradugingly accepting mistakes in all these positions.

(i) Congress, CPM have accepted that Illegal Bangladeshi Immigration is doing great harm to the country.
(ii) Political parties are understanding this fradylent conversion. A. B. Bardhan of CPI has accepted that. U.R. Ananthamoorthy, that doyen of Indian Culture advised the Karnataka CM NOT to attend Benny Hinn.
(iii) Romila Thapar didn't get her Jobs Back.
(iv) Discourse on Secularism is completely changed today. Schools, Colleges, Higher institutions are publicly advising people for Yoga. CDAC, India's Premier Computing Boy has a Gita Reader in their Web-Site. Its NOT absense of religion, but Equal Treatment of All religions!
(v) After 1955, Nehru's Kashmir policy is virtually that of Hindu Right.

So, its kind of: All others are Accepting RSS positions grudgingly, and working towards addressing these. RSS should be fine, as long as its issues are addressed. If a Cong Govt can deliver the things nedeed, Indians are happy. RSS is also happy.

Its undeniable, the country is moving towards Right. Its a very bad news for Communists, and a great news for the country.
Bhaskar
Delhi, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
79
I would first like to congratulate Ms.Seems Sirohi for exposing such a bitter truth to the masses.
While I have full respect for the Christian religion
, I do not agree with the evangillical activities
carried out by the evangelical agencies with the support of certain foreign governments.
I think this is balant violation of Human rights as there could be no greater crime than to break a society.I personally feel that these missionaries are actually following orders of some vested interests so as to create new movements for new seperate homelands in the country.It will be shame
for us if India,a nation of 1 billion people is taken to ransom by these bigots.
Though it might sound funny,I think they are like white collared thugs comaparable to Bin laden as follows:

1)Identity
Bin Laden:Is a Terrorist who wants to further the cause of his religion by all means.
Missionaries:are similar to the terrorists in polished form as they also just want to convert.

2)
Bin laden:has created wedge between muslims and non-muslims in world.
Missionaries:Are trying creating tensions between Hindus and Christians in India.

3)Bin Laden:Targeted twin towers to break morale of US.
RESULT:Laden got war on Terror in response.

Missionaries:are targetting the poor of India to break the society and its morale.
RESULT:Need to be firmly showed the way out.

4)Bin Laden:Misinterpreted Islam to suit his evil objectives.
Missionaries:Are twisting the Indian religion and culture via the media controlled by them so as to suit their evil objectives.

I think the time has come now when the government needs to firmly tell the countries and the organizations involved in this bloody game to stop now as India can no longer be treated as a banana
republic.We repect plurarism but the other people need to respect out feelings and culture too.
Last,I would like to know what are our VHP ,RSS etc. doing to remove caste oppression from the society?We need strong movements for unity across different castes.
Jaago Mere Desh
In, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
78
Rama,

Hope you also saw the arrogance of Southern Baptist representative in the Larry King Live, when all leaders from different faiths were present.

It was disgusting!
awaken_bharat
Mumbai, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
77
I really pity Seema Sirohi. By reading rants and raves she will be counting sheeps.
To Netala ,washington DC. Have you watched programme LARRY KING 's show in CNN regarding tsunami tragedy? I found that Former president Bill clinton was much better than your mentality. Well, I am not against any religion but forcible conversions. first you have to tell me one concept of christianity. Roman catholic, protestant, baptist, syrian christian methodist and so on. why so different thoughts on same concept of religion? caste is a word misused in English language. I can give a long lecture on this your misunderstood concept of CASTE in
India. but this is only to give rants and raves to the article.
Rama
NJ, United States
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
76
Dear Arati'ji,

Thank you for those nice words.

It’s a madness going on. It’s NOT against Christianity. It’s against this particular perversion going on in the name of Christianity that destroys the Local Culture.

There were people like C.F. Andrews, a British Clergy who was Gandhi's great friend. This Evangelical Christianity is NOT that of Andrew's! I would humbly request you to read Prof Ashis Nandy, himself a Christian, who wrote extensively on the Cultural Issues being faced by India. My ideas are largely shaped by Prof Nandy's writings. I am a fan of him.

Lets make a better world, by understanding each other. NOT by intellectual aggression, but by understanding each other better. Indian Values are very unique in the world. For the world to prosper, intellectually or otherwise, we have very few options but to deny these all pervasive, masculine West. That's where Classical Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism.all will come to play. Else, as Einstein said: the 4th world war would be faugh with bows and arrows.

If you know any Christian friends who are busy in these kinds of Activities, please impress upon them. Please tell them that these are madness. This will bode badly for everybody, and the world.
awaken_bharat
Mumbai, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
75
Care India,

Oh its news for me , RSS, VHP and many Hindu organizations like the mutt are honestly trying to correct this wrongdoing by advocating one Hindu concept, no high caste and low caste thing.!!

Please send me any articles or resolutions related to this.

Thanks
Netala
Washington DC, USA
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
74
Sir,
The article has proved that Christian missionaries especially the foreign ones consider every tragedy as an opportunity to"secure conversions";thanks for publishing such an enlightening article.

The Niyoghi Commission has proved in 1956 itself after examining hundreds of witnesses,that conversions to Christianity are secured by the missionaries with "inducements,allurements,and material assistance".The Niyoghi Commission*s report was unanimous and it had a Christian representative also.Your report now shows that the situation has gone from bad to worse from 1956 to 2005!

In August 2002,the National Minorities Commission has written to the Catholic bishops Conference of India to advice Christian missionaries in Punjab not to convert Sikhs and Hindus there with the help of medicines and money!Thus in matters of conversions of Hindus the native christian missionaries as well as christian missionaries from abroad "follow the same methods and tactics"!

In January 2005 Bill Hinn went to Bangalore with the avowed aim of converting and harvesting souls!A few years back the Pope declared that India is ripe for harvest of souls!With such blatant attempts to secure conversions the use of help by the American evangelists to secure souls should not be surprising to anyone.

Thiskind of unethical conversions are a fraud on the Freedom of religion guaranteed in the Indian Constitution.It is nothing but a matter of trading and purchasing humans and a kind of slave trade.The Indian government which has refused foreign aid should refuse entry for foreign christian missionaries also.conversions should be prohibited by law.they are a danger to the nation*s unity and security even!(L.Rohini)
L.ROHINI
tiruchirappalli, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
73
Netala,
Neither do we need certification from Ambedkar. I can analyse and speak my own mind. I don't need to quote some dead guy like you. Seems you do not have the habit of understanding what other's write. I said it is stupid to go and look for other religions to solve one's problem. Anyone with a common sense would understand that it means we should try to solve it on our own without outside influence/interference. RSS, VHP and many Hindu organizations like the mutt are honestly trying to correct this wrongdoing by advocating one Hindu concept, no high caste and low caste thing. That is what these converion fellow are hating so much. They want the caste system to prevail so that they can pursue their evil desings on low caste people. Before you write something next time, check your facts rather than blindly believing in all that trash dished out by p-sec media.
If quoting some guy is what it takes to put some sense into people like you, I can post some articles here on Christianity. Look for me.
care india
california, USA
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
72
Dear Netala,

It needed a Christian Church Minister (Dr. Matin Luthar King) to learn ways to fight Social oppression from a Sanatani Hindu, i.e., Gandhi. What do you say about that?

Are missionary actvities limited to removing "untouchability only"? How the Culture, Values, ethics of those "untouchables" are treated by Missionaries? Those are treated with disdain by conversionists. Marxist say, its ONLY matrial alone. Christian COnversionists say, Its ONLY SOUL.
What happened to the other aspects of his life which is holding that Soul? What happened to their Culture?

"Untouchability" is a Crime, punishable in India. Many leaders from lower starta rose to high places. Why don't the missionaries work in Bronx, NY City? Or Inner Neighborhoods of Western metros, where misslions of people are denied their rights just for thei e culor of their Skin?

Using the same word "untouchablity", again and again, you will have diminishing return. This very article should be reminder to that. Major politicians are now speaking against it. Its happening Globally, mostly in Asia. We are educated Hindus, and are proud of our Civilization. NONE OF US Support Untouchability, or Casteism.

Don't try to take advantage of this. Don't burn your Fingures, because your intentions are NOT honourable. You people have NO rights, what so ever, to denigrate the culture, Society, Customs of Any place. That's criminality.
awaken_bharat
Mumbai, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
71
Hi Awaken Bharat,
You are definitely well read and have such a wealth of information.

I have the greatest confidence in India and its people. Let education permeate and India will take its rightful place as one of the great nations of this world. The best change is one that comes from within.

Evangelicals, radicals, fanatics and all the rest will come, rant, and go. The Falwell's and Graham's of this world never were, are, or ever will be a challenge to India's culture and values.

Arati
New York, United States
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
70
Care India,
I don’t think DR BR Ambedkar needs your certification. You said, you don’t believe in caste system, on the contrary you advocate not look for other religions to solve its problems. So you want to maintain the status quo, but we believe in changing the world for better.
Thanks
Netala
Washington DC, USA
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
69
Aratiji Wrote: "I am against proselytizing of all kinds (especially Evangelical Christians who are a complete joke and blot on Christianity in general".

Great news. Madam will you please support "stop religious Conversion" Act? Its already there half-baked, through some ruling of Supreme Court?

Will you support Billions of Dollars which is being Spent in India, ONLY for conversion through allurement, which is illegal as per Supreme Court's Ruling?
awaken_bharat
Mumbai, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
68
Netala,
First of all, Ambedkar isn't a smart guy. Even if I were a dalit, I would still say that he is a big idiot. Look at the mess he put India into with his thoughtless, visionless constitution he wrote. I don't believe in the Hindu caste system and it bother's me a lot but that doesn't mean that I go and look for other religions to solve the problems. Ambedkar forgot that the place he occupied in India is because of the very nature of Hindusism. Ambedkar would be stupid to think that with his qualifications, he would have done any better in a western country.

Christianity is a religion that believes in political domination, not spiritualism. If untouchability is an issue that bothers Hinduism, then racism, forcelful conversions, lack of respect for other religions, killing people to grab their resources and maintain world domination are some issues that show christianity in poor light. So, you would be better off not quoting a guy who died decades back and whose time has passed. This is 21st century and let's focus on the conversion acitivites of this generation. Neither you nor I can predict with authority what Ambedkar would have said if he was alive today and saw all these conversions and Iraq war. So leave the dead guy alone and speak your mind, not quote some trash said way back in 50's.
care india
california, USA
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
67
NETALA,

There were NO untouchables in North-South America, Africa, or even Europe. Why did these people destroyed local, indigeneous culture of these lands? They even organized 3 (or 4th) Holy-War against Eastern Christanity, and destroyed the beautiful city of Constantinople! Muslims didn't do that!

How long will you support this politically generated knowledge of Untouchables? Who rpoduced that knowledge? How it was produced?

My friend, a huge body of literature, history, analysis is now available today, which speak about all these. Who produced these knowldge, how it came onto being, what were the agenda. Even discourse is looking into other materials, like: What Maucaulay spoke in a lecture, what he wrote in a letter.

When you see wholistically, then the truth comes up. These people have waged a war on Indian Civilization. And all these are small pieces of Weapons which are being used. These concted History, inveting history, racism, name of Lord, Money Power.

Not ONLY in India. Its eyeing the whole of Asia.
awaken_bharat
Mumbai, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
66
Hey care India,
Calm down. I am against proselytizing of all kinds (especially Evangelical Christians who are a complete joke and blot on Christianity in general)

I am equally disgusted by journalists who take shortcuts by copying information from websites and other newspapers.






Arati
New York, United States
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
65
Madam Aarti,

1. Are you from NY City? Then, you may like to Visit COlumnboa University once and meet Ms Gauri Viswanathan. She will tell you athing or two on this Perverted Religious Conversion business of Europeans on Asia and India. Prof Said is dead for two years. Still there are many many scholarly people around. Worst for you people: Their rank is swelling!

2. Have you read Dr. Martin Luthar King Jr's Auto-Biography? I recently bought that for my daughter. Please read the Chapter 4 (or may be 5) where he narrated his Jouney to India. As you may know, Dr. King belonged to Southern Baptist Church. Can you compare its agenda today and that of Dr. King's? Its like heaven and hell. Read the Web-sites, pamplets of Southern Baptist Church today, and read that Chapter by Dr. King.

Who did that Change Ms Aarti? How it happened? What are the reasons? Its worst than Islamization of Pakistan, or Taliban.

I cried reading Dr. King's Auto Bio-graphy. I cried seeing how Christian Fanatics could take over such an Institution within last 30 years.

I now play Ms's Suprabhatam and Dr. King's "I have a Dream" as my Morning prayer.
awaken_bharat
Mumbai, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
64
They following are the exact words of one of the Greatest sons of India, i.e Dr BR Ambedkar quote

“My religious conversion is not inspired by any
material motive. This is hardly anything I cannot
achieve even while remaining an Untouchable. There is no other feeling than that of a spiritual feeling underlying my religious conversion. Hinduism does not appeal to my conscience. My self-respect cannot assimilate Hinduism. In your case change of religion
is imperative for worldly as well as spiritual ends. Do not care for the opinion of those who foolishly ridicule the idea of conversion for material ends. Why should you live under the fold of that religion which has deprived you of honor, money, food and shelter?

I tell you, religion is for man and not man for
religion. If you want to organise, consolidate and be successful in this world, change this religion. The religion that does not recognise you as a human being,or give you water to drink, or allow you to enter in temples is not worthy to be called a religion. The religion that forbids you to receive education and comes in the way of your material advancement is not worthy of the appellation 'religion'. The religion that does not teach its followers to show humanity in
dealing with its co-religionists is nothing but a
display of a force. The religion that teaches its
followers to suffer the touch of animals but not the touch of human beings is not a religion but a mockery.The religion that compels the ignorant to be ignorant and the poor to be poor is not a religion but a visitation!" Quote ends.

Can media suggest to raise genuine debate in the media to address Inequities in the Hindu society in relationship to Untouchables who suffered several millennia in the hands caste Hindus and to abolish the inequality in the Hindu society by removing the foundations of the manusmriti-religion with a better one laid in its place,
being able to reconstruct itself on such a better foundation?

If that is the case the untouchables may consider to remain in Hindu fold otherwise they do not care for the opinion of those who foolishly
ridicule the idea of conversion for material ends.
Netala
Washington DC, USA
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
63
Madam Aarti,

http://www.schoolofwisdom.com /tagore-wells.html

Do read this conversation between Tagore & H.G.Wells. Read the Last couple of Questions.

By Denigrating one's Culture, My Culture Doesn't Go up. But these Christian Missionaries seem to think that. If I am Good, People will say that. Why I will say: You are Bad?

Did Jesus the Lord teach that? I doubt.
awaken_bharat
Mumbai, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
62
dear Aarti'ji:

If I use Any spell checker, I can get rid of that. But how we will get rid of the perverted Christian Agenda on India? British Cololianism's greatest damage to India was NOT economic, or Political. It was how our History, Culture, Education were systemetically ridiculed, denigrated by Brits with Missionaries prodding at their back?

How we will get rid of that? You talk about Marx. But what were reasons behind Maucaulay's Actions? Were it NOT religion, and European Culture?

By the way, Even hardcore Marxist terminology like: Capital, Proletariat, Awareness has TAINTS OF WESTERN CULTURE INBUILT into it. Hope you know that. Or Talk to Prof Dipesh Crakraborty of University of Chicago!

Madam: Its very Sad. Its sadder even, when you try to justify it. Believe me, I am NOT a RSS guy. I have read all sides. Even Rabindranath tagore said: British Destroyed Indian Education System, which was UNTOUCHED during the MUGHAL Era.
awaken_bharat
Mumbai, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
61
Hey awaken_bharat:
Firstly, you have serious spelling issues. Fix that. Secondly, go back and read my comments again - they are purely related to journalistic integrity and has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with history and religion!!!

Arati
New York, United States
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
60
Its very clear Agenda. Destroy, denigrate, bad-mouth India's Ancient Civilization. Make it such, there is NOTHING Indians can be proud of. Thus half of Evengelical Conversion is done. Then, come to the poor people with massive Money. Further ridicule Indian religions, and pluck the fruits of "Christ".

Sofar, our Marxist Historians were also helping this indirectly, by denigrating Ancient India and its achievements. But they have started realizing it lately. Mr. A.B. Bardhan CPI's head is a very senior politician. Ramchandra Guha (who writes here in the pages of Outlook as welll) wrote about Mr. Bardhan's change of heart recently. That's why ROMILA THAPAR doesn't GET HER Job Back. But Others get her Job back.

"CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES ARE DESTROYING TRIBAL CULTURE" --Mr. A. B. Bardhan, head of CPI, and India's one of Most Senior Politician.

WAS NEHRU PROUD OF INDIAN CIVILIZATION? WAS TAGORE PROUD OF IT? WAS GANDHI PROUD OF IT? Rajaji, Patel, Vivekanand, Aurobindo, Tilak?

All were. But, these people are taking their name, and doing just the Opposite.

Aarti'ji: You cannot continue this for long. You MUST be ASHAMED of THIS.
awaken_bharat
Mumbai, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
59
Aarti wrote: "Religion is the opium of the people," wrote Karl Marx.

Great! But then, what you think these evangelicals doing? What you think you are doing? What you think British Education policy did? What you think Maucaulay Did? What was Maucaulay's Source to denigrade Indian Culture, Education System? What was the Source?

Sir William Jones didn't say that. So, something happened in those 20-30 years between Sir Jones and Maucaulay. What Happened? How it Happened? Who did that? What were their goals?

We need Answers, Ms Aarti. Nomore delay dallying, and preaching. Just asnwer who did all these stuff, why, how. What was the Goal?

As I said, read that Prof Traumann Book: "Aryan and British India".
awaken_bharat
Mumbai, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
58
Dear Aarti,

Seema Sirohi need to not pugarize from one Article. The problem is not lack of information. Rather, there are too much information!

Aarti, Its a long Story. The discourse is more 200 years old. It started with British Colonialism and subsequent agenda pushed by Brits with active prodding with Christian Missionaries. It was completely opposite to the Stand of Sir William Jones.

Its unpardonable. Its anything but cruelest Criminality. Read "Aryan and British India", by prof Thomas Trautmann. He is a professor of Univ of Michigan, and this book is published by Univ of California Press. How long will you hide under this false premise of "modernity". Open your eyes. Modernity didn't start in Europe. How long will you cloud people's mind?

Prof Ashis Nandy has termed this as "return from the Exile". We were exlied from our Land, our Civilization, our Consciouness. We are claiming back all those which belong to us. We will place them at the right place.

And do note: Prof Nandy is an Indian Christian!

Respect Local Culture. Repect diversity. Isn't that the basic Human rights?
awaken_bharat
Mumbai, India
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
57
***
Mercy wrote: It is the divine duty of the missionaries to save Hindus in India from the eternal darkness
****
The word that comes to mind is "Meme". Richard Dawkins's term for an idea considered as a replicator, especially with the connotation that memes parasitise people into propagating
them much as viruses do.

Dont reduce the religion of Jesus into a Meme.

Do yourself a favour and consult a good Psychiatrist before your delusions become violent and you start hurting people.
shapra
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
56
"Religion is the opium of the people," wrote Karl Marx. All the readers reactions are proof of this - a poorly written article about tsunami aid & evangelicals is prompting such a vicious and heated debate on anything but the scope of the article!!!
Arati
New York, United States
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
55
****
Kayrao wrote:IF christians discriminate against non-christians how will they convert..which they are doing on a massive scale as per hindu propoganda,,,, so ,, watch what you say
****

I think you missed my point. You berate Hinduism because it (allegedly) discriminates the so-called untouchables. Then you say Christians will give aid only if you convert. So Non-Christians are not eligible. Dont you see the hypocrisy? If Hinduism (allegedly) discriminates on Caste, Christianlity is discriminating on Religion.

Massive or not, religious conversions should be an individual choice; not forced down the throats of gullible people. It is like making a dog do tricks before throwing it a bone.

I am amazed at the religious conviction of some people: "My God is the true god".
shapra
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
54
Dear Editor and Seema Sirohi,

I live in US and frequently had to encounter such situations. Thank you for bringing an important topic which changed the profile of half of the world and going to change the entire world unless it is confronted. The evangelists from western world (prominents USA) are no different from Jihadis from middle-east (primarily funded by Saudi). The evangelists have the knack of PR handling which nobody in the world has. If any Hindu raises the issue of conversion, which is affecting culture and nation, he/she is branded as a intolerant Hindutva guy even by our 'Secular' media. I am in US for a couple of decades and can see to what extent these evangelists have control over. I recommend the following books
1. 'Spiritual Warfare: The Politics of the Christian Right by Sara Diamond'
2. Empire of the Soul by Paul W. Roberts
3. Evangelicals in the White House: The cultural maturation of born again Christianity, 1960-1981 (Studies in American religion) by Erling Jorstad.

Thank you
Radhakrishna
radha kota
san jose, usa
Jan 27, 2005 12:00 AM
53
There is one thing scarier than zealous evangelical proselytizing - zealous reporting lacking journalistic integrity and objectivity.

Ms. Sirohi seems to have crafted her story from a Washington Post article that was published on January 13 this year. That is not the only problem - she takes it many many steps further - part plagiarized and part opinion resulting in a poorly written (and edited) article that is wholly incendiary. She weaves unrelated issues clearly intended to taunt and provoke reactions from readers.

Is there an editor here paying attention? You are on a global stage and such writing reflects very poorly on your magazine.

Ms. Sirohi, I suggest you read (or rather re-read) the original article at http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6819471/ - should give you some pointers on writing...
Arati
New York, United States
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
52
Noted American Philosopher Will Durant wrote, Rebirth of Jesus was an import into Christanity from Hinduism.

NITS: I agree with you partly. Yes, there still are some people who are oppressed. But the Conversion amongst Tribals doesn't hold any Water. TRIBALS HAVE NO CASTE.

Whatever fragrents of casteism is there today, it has nothing to do with Hinduism. No Saints in last 500 years, no leaders, writers, philosophers in last 200 years wrote anything that can constituted as supporting Caste discrimination.

As Bhaskar wrote before: We also need to find out, how so many castes came onto being! Were these there some 500-700 years back? Does the Travel Accounts of outside people actually write that?

One we see it closely, it was created during British Colonial Rule, sanctified bu different administrative actions. Its a weired thing: No Hindu spiritual leader is talking about "Manu Smriti", but these guys are talking about it!

Ask any Hindu Student: Who is Manu? He will say, yes, he studies in Grade 5!

Its a divide & Rule Policy, my friend!
awaken_bharat
Mumbai, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
51
it is ironic. a serious student of the world history would know that Jesus was indeed hindu in a way. he had amassed his great knowledge from india culture, there are even suggestions that he visited kashmir when he was inbetween 17 and 30 yrs old. so what are these "churchians" converting people to? Jesus or church?
By the way, Raj has a valid point. hindu upper caste has been cruel to their own people, so for lower caste, it is definitely a good incentive to liberate themselves.
nits
nashville, USA
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
50
Has anybody read "the Lost world" by Arthur Conan Doyle lately? Remember the Missionary character deep in the south of the Amazon Forest? And his contempt of the Local Indigeneous Culture?

North-South Americans, Africans didn't have caste System. But they were destroyed. 100s of Travel accounts are available by different people during Pre & Post Mughal period. How many Castes they had mentioned? We have 1000s of castes now! Who made all these? Its Missionary Inspired British Colonial System.

These Western Culture has all but ruined the traditional liofes of Europe and America. They have pitted even one Gender aganist another. This type of Masculine approach, no respect for even Elders, or Childhood will spell the doom of the Whole World Civilization.
Bhaskar
Delhi, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
49
Brahmins are afraid of Christianity. It's because Christianity will lead the low-caste people away from darkness, fear and ignorance. Moreover, if the low-caste people are gone, Brahmins won't have the pedestal to stand on. Low-caste Hindus are their life blood. As far as conversion is concerned, who cares who the God is as long as it gets food to the dinner table? Low-caste and backward Hindus should all convert to Christianity for a better life. To hell with Jesus. It's about survival with dignity. Get your freaking education and choose your God later if you are that interested in a freaking God to take care of your a$$. If you are branded as a Shudra because you are born to a particular family, it's time to gather some courage and get out of the society that demeans you. At least your kids will be schooled in a missionary school (incidentaly, all BJP/VHP/RSS people send their kids to the same missionary schools for a better education. They send only the kids of low-caste people like you to Sharada Shishu Mandirs where they teach the same type of lessons as they do in a madrasa). Think about it. Do it for your kids future. Let them not grow up into another spineless low-caste coward like you. Let them live their life with dignity.
Raj
Chicago, USA
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
48
a shocking way of spreading msg of the LORD by demeaning and taking advantage of the wretched physical and mental of the victims. As usual uncle SAM has double standards.
v.n.gautam
delhi, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
47
I think no religion except hinduism has survived in this world without money and muscle power. on the other hand religions have been overtaken and renamed riding on money and muscle power.

In nuts shell, if india wants to save hinduism and indonesia wants to save islam, they have to have the financial might of the evangelicals or else leave it to the god to save its own name.

to be straight, humans have only one fait and that is greed so anyone who can fulfil that is welcome.

Ab
Bath, UK
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
46
a good article

this should be brought in front of those secularist who are willing to ditch their religion
Ramprasad Yamijala
Chennai, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
45
THE TIME IS NOW TO SPREAD THE WORD OF TRUE SPIRIT AND GOD. INDIA HAS PRODUCED DIME A DOZEN PEOPLE LIKE JESUS CHRIST AND ALL OF THEM HAVE TAUGHT THE SAME. I GUESS THE HEAVENLY PROJECT MANAGEMENT OFFICE NEEDS A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT MESSENGERS SO HE SENT THEM IN DIFFERENT FLAVORS TO DIFFERENT REGIONS HOWEVER HE LOVED INDIA SO MUCH THAT IT HAS BECOME A HOLY PLACE WITH SO MAY ENLIGHTENED SEERS AND SAINTS. ON THE CONTRARY ITS ALSO SAD THAT WE(HINDUS) HAVE BECOME TOO TOLERANT AND COMPLACENT THAT WE FORGOT WHAT WE ARE AND STARTED TAKING THINGS FOR GRANTED. THATS HOW THE COUNTRY GOT SCREWED UP BY OUTSIDERS SUCH AS BRITISH AND OTHERS..BECOZ WE WERE THE PEACE LOVING FOLKS AND OUR PRINCIPLES OF HUMANITY STAND THE TEST OF TIME AND ARE OF HIGHEST LEVEL. CANT DISAGREE ON THAT WE HAVE LOST TRACK OFLATE WITH ALL THE CARNAGE, OFCOURSE WHERE DOESNT IT HAPPEN.

HERE IS WHAT EVERY INDIAN/HINDU HAS TO DO TO SPREAD THE WORD AND BRING A QUITE REVOLUTION AND MAKE THIS WORLD A PEACEFUL PLACE -

A SUPREME BRACHES BE ESTABLISHED WHERE THE TRUE WORD OF GOD, VEDAS AND HOLY SCRIPTURES BE MAINTAINED AND MADE AVAILABLE AND MORE IMPORTANTLY GUARDED PRESERVED AND DISTRIBUTED. SHOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR LEADERSHIP, TRAINING AND SUPPORT IN ESTABLISHING REGIONAL OR LOCAL BRANCHES OF PLACES OF WORSHIP.

HINDU DISCIPLESHIP/FOLLOWERSHIP - ENROLL AND WELCOME MANY AND MANY PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD IN PLACES LIKE AMERICA, EUROPE AND AFRICA WHERE THERE IS MORE DARKNESS, BLINDNESS, GREED, SIN AND PERVERSION.

TEMPLE OR PLACE OF WORSHIP - BUILDINGS WHERE PEOPLE GATHER EVERY WEEK ATLEAST ONCE WITH THEIR PURE MINDS AND HEARTS TO LISTEN TO THE HOLY PREACHINGS. OFCOURSE EACH ONE IS FREE TO VISIT ANY TEMPLE DURING OTHER DAYS BUT GATHERINGS A MUST TO SHOW THE STRENGHT OF THE SPIRIT AND OF ONENESS.

HUMANITARIAN AID - DISTRIBUTE AID JUST A LITTLE AND WHATEVER WE CAN TO CARE, SHARE, LOVE AND GIVE A HELPING HAND TO THOSE WHO CANT STAND ON THEIR FEET. (this is what the evangelicals do with their money...one hand dollar and other hand exteded for help..when the other stands up they take away the dollar). THERE ARE SO MANY DISTRESSED CHILDREN IN INDIA AND THE WORLD (COZ OF DESTRUCTION SPREAD BY THE WESTERNERS) EACH ONE SHOULD SPONSOR A CHILD SHOW THEM HOPE AND MAKE THEIR FUTURE BRIGHT.

The above strategy is certain to counter the false propaganda of the evangelicals which has no substance other than brand image and money, they think jesus and chrisitanity is a product that can be marketed so conceited and pigheaded and blinded are these folks coz of money and riches these westerners looted.

Jai Hind
sastri v
Hyd, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
44
Mercy the Christian fanatic or rice convert, do not talk about Hindu religion. Did we talk about how stupid is your religion and your God? Hindus do not care about Judgment Day or any other crap. You keep these discussions inside your Churches.

If Hindus discriminate based on caste, it is their own problem and they are already addressing such historical issues through reservations and other benefits through government machineries. We do not require any loud mouthing from ‘others’.

Do not talk so much about missionaries! In India, next to Indian military, it is missionaries who are the largest owners of Real estate! Most of these were forcibly taken during British rule or during fraud Nehru and Cos (I mean, Congress) ruling.

Do not talk about small temples that are constructed along the roadsides, which will be vanished any way during some highway constructions. All ancient Hindu temples are directly controlled by the government; more over, all revenue coming through these temples are taken directly in to government exchequer probably for subsidizing pilgrimage trips of certain minorities. If you go to any of these temples you can see the amount of money that is being spent to maintain these temples and its surroundings.

Considering missionaries, the wealth accumulated and amount of support getting from outside (and inside), what Hindu organizations are doing to this country is enormous. Hindus never lived through charities; it was actually the other way until Muslim rulers and Christian colonists occupied our places. All our lands were taken away, all our skills were put down from using it for centuries.

During the monarchical eras, there may be social discrimination but people in general never deprived of basic needs. Until few centuries back Indians were among the richest and filled with enough space, food, shelter, cloths, wealth, freedom, sex and what not!
Ram
Kerela, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
43
Mary...whatever

Hinduism is not the RSS, the BJP or any such other (semi) fascist organisation. Hindusims is what millions of Hindus have histrocially practices quietly at home and it is is true Hindusim which has allowed the assimilation and peaceful existence of other religions in India over the centuries. Your opinions on Christianity are not only laughable, but also show the extent to which you have been manipulated yourself by your faith. Chritianity is one of the most corrupt organisations in the world...not just now, but has been for some time. For you and other bigoted Christians to pretend that your religion is somehow responsible for getting people out of the dark ages is ludicrous - people in India, followers of Vedic Hinduism, were living in organised and planned towns at a time when Christians were still living under one roof with their domesticated animals. I don't believe that any one religion is better than another - they are all backward belief systems as far as I am concerned, but Hinduism has one great merit, which is that it allows people to find their own particular way of being spiritual. I used to wonder why some Indians used to get so het up by Christians, but upon readin your comments, it is no surprise - people like you are responsible for your entire community being seen in a bad light and your rabid, ill-informed and prejudicial opinions put you in the same category as extremists from the RSS/VHP or some strident jehadist mullah.
Rustam Roy
London, UK
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
42
oh How stupid of me. Mercy Fernanez is not a christian.(no christian can write such lines)
It is some RSS blog who his writing under a christian name in order to instigate hindus against christians. Deadly strategy . I admire RSS
kayrao
Mumbai, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
41
My dear Mercy, consider this

JESUS insists that he is the Son of God. MOHAMMED
went a step further. He claimed that he was the messenger of God on earth and insisted that he was the last messenger. KRISHNA went a step beyond both Jesus and Mohammed. He claimed that he was "Parameshwar"- the God of Gods.
they arrogated to themselves a high status. They were not content to be born a son of man,
remain a common man and preach their gospel as a common man. Jesus, Mohammed and Krishna claimed for themselves a role of MOKSHADATA ( saviours).

So Who among them can tell the TRUTH... obviously no one. Their claims are all lies.
kayrao
Mumbai, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
40
Ohy..Mercy Fernandeso...dont feel indignant yaar..just as you think its right...so do all Hindus think...the problem is we can live and accomodate you, but you cant live comfortably, if your faith is so strong..just stay put and have fun...be happy you have place to live and air to breathe...even though you are not part of one...WHY DONT YOU GO AND TELL AND PREACH THE WESTERNERS TO STOP THE ATROCITIES ON AFRICAN NATIONS...HELP THE POOR IN AFRICA..TREAT THEIR BLACKS WITH RESPECT IN AMERICA AND BRITAIN...STOP RACISM.

You cant do nor your christianity do...you should be proud you are in India and stop living in an illusive world of christianity and christ teachings by evangelicals...its is the most absurd and idiotic stuff..and am sure will perish soon.
sastri v
Hyd, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
39


Its true that we in India do not have the kind of all pervasive bond that keeps us together, we dont have our priests teaching us to hate some religion and love only ones fellows, unlike what happens in Churches - where a pastor is the beacon of light and people can be preached whatever the top level evangelical CEO sends out a memo with.

The various Hindu religious organizations as well as the people, whoever has the energy and strength, should come together to protect and to spread the true spirit of Hinduism. IT IS BECAUSE OF SOME FOLKS IN THE SOCIETY WHO STARTED IGNORING THE DOWNTRODDEN, POOR AND HELPLESS THAT THESE EVANGELICALS AND OUTSIDERS STARTED TAKING ADVANTAGE OF OUR OWN BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN INDIA, MISLED THEM AND TURNED THEM FORCIBLE INTO CHRISTIANS and they USE ALL MEANS TO DO SO. WE SHOULD COUNTER THIS EVANGELICAL MISINFORMATION nonsense.
sastri v
Hyd, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
38
Hinduism is a way of life a philosophy a culture an warm blanket that shapes itself to whoever accepts it. It is highly symbolic and full of symbols. It does not care if you eat a Potato baked, fried, deep-fried, with salt or with Pav, all it cares is you savor the potato. The analogy is to the multiple gods and goddess Hindus have created.

Has any other religion taught to respect the food we eat and as a god that keeps us going. Does any religion teach us about women as shakti and power.
Numerous are such examples and analogies that can be drawn. The point is the flexibility the freedom available in accepting the spirit of god and making it part of ones life is unbeatable. To make it easy, no Jesus Christ the great saint existed before and only came into light years after Hinduism. Jesus preached selflessly to give up perversion and to think of the spirit of the god. There were no scriptures no records no great literature available during the period of Christ. Its these overzealous westerners with excess money created all kinds of interpretations and narrations to give some form and shape to christianity. No one even knows properly anything about Jesus and keep debating about his origins his way of life and his teachings. The BIBLE HAS GONE THRU DOZENS OF REVISIONS AND INTERPRETATIONS DEPENDING ON THE OVERZEALOUS EVANGELICALS. CAN YOU SAY THAT OF GITA, ETC ETC. NOPE ITS THE ONE WORD OF GOD WRITTEN BY TRUE SPIRITS AND HAS PASSED THRU THE TEST OF TIME FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.
sastri v
Hyd, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
37
This is an absurd concept: "All faiths are equal, all religions are correct". How can there be two truths? Truth is One. There cannot be two or more opinions regarding that. Hindusim does not have the self confidence and strength in its own belief, because it is not the true path. That is why all this "all faiths are correct" etc. How can it be so? If you accept that Christianity is "also" correct according to your Hindu doctrine, well, Christianity says there is only one way for salvation...which is through Christ. How can both be equal then?

Regarding my "missionalry zeal" by KAYRAO: what is wrong in telling the truth? It is the duty of every believer to tell the truth to everyone. Even if it is one's enemy, it is the duty of a Christian to spread the word of God and save him from eternal suffering in hell. I do not need to be afraid of fundamentalist organisations like RSS etc to do my duty. I care for my fellow Indians who still do not know the glory of God.
Mercy Fernandes
Bangalore, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
36
Dear Ms Mercy Fernandes,

There is nothing that matches the passion of the newly converted. Here are certain facts for you that your books will never state.
Hinduism as one of the most ancient traditions of the world makes no doctrinaire claims or has dogmatic beliefs. It acknowledges all the paths to the truth as equally Valid and Legitimate. The Hindu tradition is defined not by a particular prophet or a book, but there are a corpus of literature and traditions which prescribes different paths to self-realization. It is the oldest tradition which has emphasized self-realizations and self-awareness, the following of different yogas as the way the realization of God and Truth. A Hindu one who is aware and learnt about his culture will never degrade and demean the belief of others nonsense and recipes of “darkness”. As far as Hindus and Hinduism is concerned there are no smug beliefs in possessing “the truth” and all other traditions being false. In the quest towards awareness and self-realization, one does have to constantly suffer and be patient with fools who say, “only my path has the truth”.

The greatest danger to peaceful coexistence, to Hinduism and to India comes from people who are illiterate about the Hindu religious traditions and what this 5000 year old civilization stands for. So please educate yourself and have mercy on us.
Kranti
Mumbai, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
35
Hey Mary Fernandez.. please save your missionary zeal for later. You are walking into a trap that is being laid for christians by the Bhramins/caste Hindus, of the sangh parivar. RSS is the parivar’s brain. Are you so politically dumb that you don’t understand that Christians are the new toys which bhramins have given to the hindus to play with.. to hate.
Against the christians, A very dangerous game is being played. Every media, every public forum (all are infested by RSS) are being used to slowly poison the minds of hindus that christians only convert convert convert convert. A similar hate propoganda was organised against the sikhs and the muslims. You know the result. So much venom is being spewed against the christians that if in the near future, a Godhra like spark is errupts, there will be massive riots and christians will be burnt alive
Can you not see a clear pattern, First slaughter the sikhs ( following Indira gandhis assination), then render the muslims lame ( babri mazid riots, godhra riots), then burn the christians alive ( this will happen)... and after that .... which minority remains but the buddhists.. It accomplishes two goals. The Sangh parivar makes sure that the hindus always have a hate object so that they never introspect and the second .. minority after minority can be automatically crushed... then they can always finish the low castes (scheduled castes) by using the force of a not-so-low caste ( the OBCs) and so on
The day hindus stop hating others and start introspecting, bhramins will have to run for cover. No one knows the game of divide-and-rule better than the bhramins.

So stop your zeal. You are doing disservice to the hundreds of Christians who are selflessly serving. Also there is no need to support fraud faith healers like Benny Hin. they have to be denounced… they are a shame on the name of Christianity… Christianity dosent need miracle makers. It needs social servants .. and it has many.
kayrao
Mumbai, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
34
First of all: What is wrong in propagating Christianity? India needs to be taken out of the centuries old darkness.... All pre-modern cultures in the world had paganism, polytheism. But as civilisation spread, gradually all understood the true God and left their ignorant ways to embrace Christianity. This happened even for Roman empire and Europe. India is lagging behind. It is the divine duty of the missionaries to save Hindus in India from the eternal darkness. When the Judgement Day comes, God will ask each of us...if he asks "why you did not hear when you had the chance to hear the truth?" or even worse, "why you did not accept the truth when you heard it?", what can the Hindus say? Because the old days of not hearing the truth are over. Word of the True Living God is for all to hear... Wherever Christianity went, it was opposed and crushed. But ultimately...truth triumphed...Christianity is today the largest religion in the world...More than half the world is Christian. Hinduism is just nothing befroe the power of Truth.....Time is near, when all India will be saved for heaven. So if you want to save your souls, stop speaking ill of the true God and His followers. I pray for your souls.
Mercy Fernandes
Bangalore, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
33
Ramesh,

Hindus are such saintly non-violent people that they cut open the wombs of pregnant muslim women … removed the featuses and poked them on top of their trishuls .. and stuffed the wombs with burning rags.. Hindus are no different from muslims in their barbaric acts .. in fact they are a step ahead. Its only a question of which one has the political muscle to commit heinous crimes
kayrao
Mumbai, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
32
Do not make the weakness of hinudism as its virtue. Hindus dont convert because hinduism dosent allow. a person has to be born in a caste. The caste system is the backbone of hinduism ( refer your shankaracharyas statement on the kanchi mutts website) A person cannot embrace a caste. so he cannot embrace hinduism. Dont make this handicap of yours as your saintly act
kayrao
Mumbai, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
31
Shapra my friend,
IF christians discriminate against non-christians how will they convert..which they are doing on a massive scale as per hindu propoganda,,,, so ,, watch what you say
kayrao
Mumbai, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
30
****
KayRao wrote: Spreading the message of christianity while doing relief work is not OK.. but discriminiting against dalits while giving aid is ok.
*********

Dont you find something odd in what you wrote? Why is it ok to discriminate against non-christians while giving aid?
shapra
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
29
Dear Bhaskar: Appreciate your heart-felt writings. Yes, some damage is done by the Marxist-led secular brigade! They tried to banish our founding fathers. However, its coming back. I have friends working in NASA who are reading ancient Hindu (secular meaning all Indian Philosophy) Scriptures. One of my friend was saying: His Engineering College near Calcutta has introduced Yoga/Pranayam in the College/Hostel.

Actuallym these "modernists" have failed India. Our founding fathers never wanted their Society to be caught in a situation where the idea of Indian nation would supersede that of Indian Civilization, and where the actual ways of life of Indians would be assessed solely in terms of the needs of an imaginary nation-state called India.

As Naipaul stated in these pages of Outlook: Watch these Hindu nationalists. These are NOT just religious zealots, or want to establish some Hindu State. They are really trying to find out what happened to Vijaynagara, and how much beautiful it was!

Its very hard to erase 5000 year old civilization!
awaken_bharat
Mumbai, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
28
Dear Kayrao,

As per the Travelogues of 15th Century Muslim Travellers from Arabia/Iran(pretty much most advanced Civilization at that time), and other Europeans travellers accout: Only handful Castes were seen in India. Most of those were related with profession of the People. Please read Prof. Eaton's "Growth of Islam in Bengal Frontier"

How come we now have 1000s of castes? Read history Books and origin of Castes. Almost all of those were "invented" by the Britishers with intellectual support of the Christian Missionaries to divide and Rule!

There is an account available (I am forgetting his name), where a High british Officer invented more than 100 Caste just travelling in Coastal Orissa!

These are NOW open Secrets! We don't have to learn untouchability (whatever small way it was there) is bad from the Europeans. Our very own Gandhi, who denounced the Western Civilization in no unclear terms, spoke about that. Our Chaitnya Spoke about that. Nanak, Kabir..and 100s of those Saints of Bhakti Movement!

Indians are gradually understanding..we made all these stuffs! Caste. Aryan-Dravidian Concepts. Education!
awaken_bharat
Mumbai, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
27
An excellent piece of pure analysis bu Anuradha.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++
We have been brought up in an atmosphere where being non-violent and law abiding were shown as virtues. Many of us have imbibed those values so much that we seem to have forgotten to react with force as and when the need arises. It is said that penguins don't fly like other birds beause over a long period of time they stopped flying (as there was no need) and thus they have evolved into forgetting the basic function of a bird. Likewise, we have become so soft that we almost fall in the category of cowards. As we have evolved so much, it will be difficult for us to become violent or otherwise breed violent groups. But we have to find a way where we consolidate ourselves before it is too late. We should be treeated as a group that matters. Our task is really difficult, because our political leadership has given new meaning and interpretation to noble words like secularism and equality. Many of us tend to beleive that we should respect others' religious beliefs even at the cost of our own. In this background, I suggest the following two points for consideration and implementation.
A) Go to temples as frequently as possible even if it means that we cannot follow the generally accepted practice of having a bath immediately before going in. Make offerings in cash only in cases where the concerned temple is not administered by the endowmnets ministry. Let the money be used to propogate and nurture our own religion. Other religions are more rich than Hindus and there is no need for the offerings at the temples to be used in social and secular activities. Even otherwise, government will never use the money properly. NEVER DONATE OR OFFER CASH IN TEMPLES ADMINISTERED BY GOVERNMENT AUTHORITIES AS THIS IS BEING USED FOR PURPOSES OTHER THAN WHAT IS GENUINELY INTENDED.
B) Buy your requirements only from establishments owned by Hindus. It is not an expression of hatred towards non-hindus but merely a act done too consolidate followers of our religion. This will also have some sobering effect on the aggressive sections of non-hindus. We should strengthen ourselves before we are recognised with the atttention we deserve. Recall the age old saying that even for sacrifice, a lamb is the chosen victim and not the tiger which is more difficult to be caught.
Please consider.
ramesh
hyderabad, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
26
Benny hinn is a Fraud (He is) but Cheat Satya SAIBABA is a saint and murderer seer shankaracharya is a god walking on earth
kayrao
Mumbai, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
25
According to this article,
Christians building places of worship is not OK but hindus building temples just to grab govt land is ok. destroying others places of worships is ok, grabbing of buddhist temples is ok.

Translating Bible in local language is not OK, But preventing people from education, preventing them from finding out what shit lies in hindu holy books is OK.

Spreading the message of christianity while doing relief work is not OK.. but discriminiting against dalits while giving aid is ok. Not a word has been spoken of the discrimination by caste hindus in the wake of disasters. How they grabbed prime land in Latur after earthquake, how they demanded seperate housing colonies for themselves. But if a christian preaches ,, all the dogs start barking. Hey dogs ... helping people in need and absorbing them in your society is the best way to spread ones religion. But how will hindus understand.. they cannot even tolerate the shadow of their own brothers
kayrao
Mumbai, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
24
Gospel for Asia:

http://www.gfa.org/gfa/sponsor_detail ?CANDIDATE_ID=99140174

This is the CV of One Native Missionary! Those who were surprized, should read this. Its astounding, what is going on in the name of faith, Secularism, Human-Rights!

"I was born June 10, 1986, into a non-Christian family in India. Since my young age, I worshipped numerous gods and goddesses. Faithfully, I performed the various rituals and took part in all the activities of the local temple. However, my heart was devoid of peace and happiness. The more I worshipped the idol gods, the more I became restless. Thus, I desperately longed for a peaceful life, and I had no idea how I would get it. .........Please pray for me that I may fulfill God's plan to expand His kingdom."
awaken_bharat
Mumbai, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
23
Shastry V wrote:"But, the subtlety makes all the difference, while Christians flock together due to the moderate message and common appeal, the Muslims, particularly a group get branded as terrorists... while the underlying thinking in both is same but the approaches kill one while the other achieves the same ends.."

This bad image is also created by Christians, especially Europeans ones. Edward Said is a great thinker of modern Times, and wrote a seminal book : "Orientalism". Today's bad image of Muslims largely effect of Western Press! Edward Said showed with greatest detail, how systemetically knowledge was produced in Europe, in the name of Scholarship, but actually oppposite! All these are done in the name of "Enlightenment" ! Just pure and simple lies!

Its now conclusively proven, that Enlightenment was NOT purely a European Business. Greek Knowleges passed onto 14-15 century Europe through Arabs, Muslims. And there were Many Indian, Chinese Contributions to it as well. "David Washbook of Oxford has questioned the idea that modernity was first developed in the West, and the spread around the world. The historical roots underlying the West's road to modernity EXISTED PREVIOUSLY IN THE ASIAN SOCIETIES OF CHINA, INDIA and ISLAM. Formal rationality which gave borth to modern Science, was part of Sanskrit and Arabic Culture universe long before it came to the Anglo-Saxans. Commerce and Money economy, which led to the rise of Modern Capitalism, existed in the Asian Societies before medieval Europe. Property and class-relations, similarly were prevalent in them. Washbrook shows that Pre-colonial Indian Society demonstrated a fair amount of Individualism in Brahminic ethic and the Bhakti Movements. There is also evidence of equality in the kingship systems and temple sects. Washbrook concludes, like Edward Said, that modernity at roots is an ideology of Western Dominance and NOT a scientific phenomenon." (Page 301, India Unbound by Gurcharan Das)
Bhaskar
Delhi, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
22
read "About GFA"
http://www.gfa.org/gfa/aboutgfa

Arijit Chatterjee
Calcutta, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
21
Mercy Darling, so do tell us all about the most popular religion among pedophiles: christianity/catholicism. We are all ears.
KarvinK
Chennai, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
20
Part-1

This piece of Seema Sirohi will open eyes of "Secular" Indians and the perild awaiting for Asia. North Korea's one-third people already got converted to Christanity, and Missionaries do all kind of Con jobs of setting up people and smuggling them out of North Korea through Western Embassies in China. There was a Front page story on NYTimes on Nov 1st week, just befor US election!

Its very ironic today, that people like Martin Luther King Jr's stature was once involved with Southern Baptist Church. These churches are doing immense harm to the diversity of the world. The gradual change from Dr. King's Southern Baptism to Jerry Fowell's is similar to Islamization of Pakistan. I would say, even worse.

I remember seeing a Special "CNN Presents" programme last year, where a malaysian Boy from a Elite Muslim family told: I will force everybody to submitto Islam. I thought: Oh , my God! Coulple of weeks back, another CNN presents program on Evangelical Christanity showcased a similar white girl from the South. Its incredible, that young lady, from a very well educated family said: Those who don't believe in Christ will be in Hell. Without blinking an eye! Incredible! Last week, a US Circuit court had to step in, asking some Southern US Education district to remove Stickers from Biology Book: Evolution is Just a Theory, and not proven!

Yes, this kind of thing is being done in America, under aggressive Evengelical Christian Programme!
Bhaskar
Delhi, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
19
Report coming from this magazine known for anti-Hindu views should be a slap on the face of all those christians and low life converted scums who are denying the conversion activities.
care india
california, USA
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
18
This article pretty much seems to be in-line with whats going on in the world a religious and ideological clash and struggle. The elections in US, the return of GWB on religious basis (sad BJP could not do the same in INDIA). Its primarily this way, if I have the money the power, my god, my way of life and my way of thinking is the ONLY thing thats true and rest all is Bullshit. Its precisely where a trend is emerging. Dipak Chopra rightly said in a recent interview, 'People in the west have mad GOD to be a man, who is confrontationist, bully and violent. Thus religion has become divisive and idiotic.'

Well, while the Christian evangelists have money they can reach to any corner and lure people specially desperate ones while in their home they teach rather brainwash folks to think that anything to consider other than Jesus is a sinner and evil person. Support only fellow christians...implied, hate all others. Amazing sophistication. On the other hand we have Islam, that the radicals use it kindle negative energies by explicitly telling people to hate others who do not believe in prophet mohammad. But, the subtlety makes all the difference, while Christians flock together due to the moderate message and common appeal, the Muslims, particularly a group get branded as terrorists... while the underlying thinking in both is same but the approaches kill one while the other achieves the same ends.

Its no harm in preaching Jesus and giving aid but the several news reports indicate that people are tempted, lured and taken promises to get converted to Christianity to get aid..isnt that pathetic.

While its good to mutually exchange religious people between countries, its not appropriate while one has resources and uses it with evil and malicious intent while the other does nothing...eg...look at the shankaracharya..while he wanted to go to overseas to spread the word, the guy who got murdered sankaraman or some dumbo stopped the shankaracharya mentioning its evil to cross seven seas ..now where is the logic where is the level playing field. Short-sighted,narrow minded, tactical, limited to ones own tiny area of geogrphical, cultural etc etc ARE WE INDIANS.

There are ample comments in all the international news magazines about India and the way of thinking as I mentioned above..short-sighted, narrow minded, individualistic and a failure as a group as a nation coz we do not have a common theme, a common under current that moves and binds all of us in unity. Thats why the west will always be strong and the east and middle-easterns will get screwed up...

So, where does that leave us..
sastri v
Hyd, India
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
17
Great to see this kind of report in Outlook. I am still not sure if I dreamt reading this :)
shapra
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
16
How many sheikhs from Saudi Arabia went to help the Indonesian muslims?
Raj
Chicago, USA
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
15
******
Mercy wrote: "..If the true word of God is taken to the people who never had a chance to hear it in the past, no one can object to it..."
******

What is the true word? Members of the church knocked at my door. The first thing one of them asked me was "If you die right now, will you go to heaven?". I looked into her eyes and said "Yes". The lady started shaking with rage and asked me how I know.

Well, how do you know what the true word of God is? Rice christians like you are a disgrace to Christianity. Remember what Gandhi said about Christianity and Christ. True Christian values of mercy and humility are not practiced anymore.

As for naked, bearded Sadhus, this land belongs to them. Before the Europeans came with their Gospel and modern weapons, this Nation had already existed for thousands of years. We dont need their Gospel or their illegitimate offspring.
shapra
Santa Clara, USA
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
14
So what's wrong with the missionaries giving a Bible along with aid? Hindus give only their Bible and casteism. If I were one of the tsunami affected, I'd have taken the Bible, Gita, Koran and everything whoever gave aid. At the end of the day, it'd be my personal relationship with God. There's no free lunch anywhere. Even the Govt. in India doesn't give aid unless you are a member of the ruling party. Isn't that true? Hinn with food and Bible is better than the cunning brahmins who want to exploit Indians calling them 'tribals' and 'hindus' at the same time.
Raj
Chicago, USA
Jan 26, 2005 12:00 AM
13
Is this middle-eastern religion and its concept of god worth spreading? Here is a sample from the commandments chapter where this god speaks.

Exodus 20:26 - 'Do not walk up steps to my altar. If you do, someone might see your naked body under your robes.' (NIRV)
http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book _id=2&chapter=20&version=76&context=chapter

This is to illustrate the level of perversion in the minds of the people who came up with this ridiculous concept of a jealous, angry, wrathful god. Jesus is the incarnation/son of this god.

If you understand the notion of dharma, and read these books, you will see how much suffering is caused just because people insist on following these desert cult books. This is insulting to our god-given intellect. These people ridicule the magnanimous grandeur of the almighty, by attributing such filth as his spoken word.

Let hindus be educated about their dharma philosophies and about the middle-eastern cults. Let them make an educated choice. But our commie government will not let this happen. So it is up to the hindu organizations to educate the people - to alert them to the impending danger to their heritage.

In hindu dharma you have absolute freedom. You can worship the divine in ANY form, including its formless attributeless nature. You can also choose not to worship, and attain salvation through meditation and yoga. Or you can reject them all, and still call yourself a hindu. You will still have this vast ocean of philosophy waiting for you when you are ready for it. You choose your path(s) that suits your personality and temperament. You dont have such options in any other system in the world.

Missionaries: Dont go around preying on the poor, gullible and weak. Prove your book is the word of the true god. Be open for debates. Prove for your sake atleast. It is easy to spread ignorance and increase your numbers. You are pushing India towards civil war - if that is what you want, it is just a matter of time. It wont be long.
Raj
Atlanta, USA
Jan 25, 2005 12:00 AM
12

A SIMPLE PLEA TO YOU TO OPEN YOUR EYES

Sirs,

On Benny Hinn
Benny Hinn is a proven fraud. He uses pyrotechnic effects to lull the gullible into thinking that they are being 'cured'. It is part of social engineering and part psycho-psomatic manipulation. India can do better than lay out the red carpet to proven frauds, charlatans and phonies who are here to induce conversion. They might not be 'forcing' conversions, but are surely 'inducing' it through money, media and manipulation.

'Test of faith'
Pass along this 'test of faith' to all your friends and family..
1. Go to www.google.com
2. Search for 'Benny Hinn + fraud'
3. Read, enjoy. First link is from www.scam.com!!!!
4. Read the thread
http://www.scam.com/showpost.php?s=a2c7c292af3 e8d1420d07d6729578586&p=18916&postcount=9 that links you to
http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/rr2003/r&r0 303b.htm
5. Read the above link where a research paper proves miracle cures are FALSE.
6. Now, please, please read this and ask yourself if Karnataka should support such shams.

PLEASE, pass this simple 'test of faith' to all friends, family members. Especially to the CM of Karnataka, who supports such charlatans.

So, what is the core issue?
The issue of allowing Benny Hinn on the premise that Indian preachers are free to preach abroad, is borne out of an apparent ignorance of the real issue at hand. It is not a simple issue of ensuring reciprocity or mutual cooperation. What the CM has done, knowingly or unknowingly, is supported a PRIVATE, COMMERCIAL, RELIGIOUS establishment - a gross violation of the Indian Constitution and the principles of secularism.

He probably does not have an Internet connection, and access to www.google.com :). Please have him check out..
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/bhinn .html
http://www.pfo.org/bh-lying.htm
http:/ /www.rickross.com/groups/bennyhinn.html

Last, but not the least
Lastly, why don't you go to www.bennyhin.org, and see what page first greets you? It is a link to DONATE to him, with a minimum of USD 200!!!! Is this something that you want to support?

Regards, KK Sharma
USA
KK Sharma in Boston
Boston, United States
Jan 24, 2005 12:00 AM
11
This is a one-sided argument... What if similarly strenuous efforts were made in the US or Europe for the spread of Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism etc? It would not be tolerated! "...to spread the true word of god...", "...provide physical and spiritual aid..." That is very arrogant! Thank you, but people in India have been managing to make do for the past 4,000 years and will continue to do so even without your bloody help. If they are destined for hell, as you would believe, better hell than heaven with the likes of you. Please bear in mind that India is not a punyabhumi for Christians, but it is for Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains. If you cannot bear with that, then keep your altruism to yourself. As far as the RSS is concerned, well, two wrongs do not make a right. As the adage goes, "naya Mussalman din main paanch bari Namaaz padhta hai". Already thanks to so many "naya Mussalmans", India was partitioned in 1947. People in India would be well-advised to read American news, or visit websites such as anncoulter.com, patrobertson.com, falwell.com, as well as the links provided on these pages in order to arrive at a balanced viewpoint. Even the British had similar delusions of grandeur, but that did not stop them from removing every article of value from India and inflating the English economy!
Raveesh Varma
Grand Rapids, MI, USA
Jan 24, 2005 12:00 AM
10
Pawan Joshi,

Paglaye gaye ho kaa?

These missionaries come to India not to do some charity in this poor country but to convert people to Christianity- that every dumbo knows in this world and you are singing songs of their good work!

Even your Mother Theresa was here for this purpose under instructions from the Pope. If they are doing only missionary work, why don't they declare openly that they will NOT convert ANYONE to Christianity.

Saale bewqoof banaate hain tum jaise chu@3*a ko!

It is like saying that these firang tourists are coming to Thailand, Philippine or even India to do tourism. Tourism- my foot!

Most of them are paedophiles, drug addicts, ganja smokers, opium and charas and sex-perversions who think countries like India are safe and cheap playground for their perverted and sick habits due to poverty.

And you want Govt of India to give them licence to convert?

Agra ka paaagal!
Basher-of-Islam
Mumbai, India
Jan 24, 2005 12:00 AM
9
I think Mary has made a very valid point. Oppossition to missionaries is being done wholesole by only jealous hindu cowards who have done nothing for thier own brethren and when the selfless missionaries come all the way from Europe , US etc etc etc these third grade worthies just cannot digest the upliftment of thier very own brethren.
The case in point is the Benny Hinn thing.Now to call Benny a missionary and with a mission to convert indians is a laugh riot of 2005. This also is a hieght of jealousy . Because i dont think any living saint or seer(better not to talk of them , they are occupied with some other things ) in India , and hindu to be very precise , has the same following as Benny has.The massive scale of his gathering itself is a biggest testimony to the fact of what people think of him !!!!!!!!!!!
But it will be really akin to playing a harp before the Indian bull if we go on explaining the good things which the missionaries are doing in india.These things are beyond the comprehension .
I think the missionaries are doing a very noble job and infact the goverment should bring some legislation to safeguard the interests of the missionaries.
Pawan Joshi
Agra, India
Jan 24, 2005 12:00 AM
8
Mercy darjeeling,

I agree with you when you say that "Then where is secularism and tolerance? Instead India can be declared a saffron country to be ruled by bearded, naked and ganja smoking "sadhus".

But then, this secular country of our can not be allowed to be used for conversion by using money and allurement of paedophile, homosexual and nun-screwing christian missionary padres.

Right?
Basher-of-Islam
Mumbai, India
Jan 24, 2005 12:00 AM
7
If not for the missionaries, the state of literacy, medical care, spiritual well being in India would be among the worst in the world. The poor people in India are not helped by the rich, high caste people who oppress them in every way. Christianity has given the down trodden people and the dalits honour and life. If the people who complain about conversions here do atleast 1 percent of the social works done by the Churches and missionaries, then they are justified to complain. Otherwise it is simply an outpouring of frustration.
Mercy Fernandes
Bangalore, India
Jan 24, 2005 12:00 AM
6
It is ungrateful to speak ill of the selfless service which the missionaries do to the needy. What is wrong if they help them materially and also spiritually at the hour of their need? Freedom of faith and propagation is guaranteed in the constitution of India. If the true word of God is taken to the people who never had a chance to hear it in the past, no one can object to it. Then where is secularism and tolerance? Instead India can be declared a saffron country to be ruled by bearded, naked and ganja smoking "sadhus".
Mercy Fernandes
Bangalore, India
Jan 24, 2005 12:00 AM
5
It is amazing how many readers display their own ignorance when they suggest solutions to others.

Sastri,
I ask what the hell are the organizations such as VHP, RSS and other Hindu organizations doing
Well since you have admitted you dont know the activities of RSS or VHP then why spew venom on them? For the past 75 years the RSS has been doing social work for the poor and the needy. If you were sitting in your ivory tower and shutting your ears to outside information, is the RSS's fault?
Go to RSS.org and find out more. Don't sit on your ass and feel sorry.

Deepak,
He is a Keralite Christian and very obviously a convert – Christians aren’t native to India, are they?!?! He slowly moves into attack, asking me, “Since I come to the church, what is stopping me from converting to Christianity?
Two kind people do not a religion make. I was also educated in a convent schhol and in all fairness they never pushed christianity onto me. But then if the religion has limited amount of rationality, so will the people. That is why hindus by nature are so broad minded.

Rajiv mehta,

Again your suggestion comes 75 yrs too late. THis was the purpose for the RSS since birth and it has been maligned in every arena by the congress and muslims.

Again , to all of you, Please do your research before you state anything. Do you read vernacular papers? You want the RSS to do something abt it, how about going to RSS.org and reading their activities?
How about getting off your asses and take the effort to go to a RSS shaka and see what activities they are involved in?
I hope it is not too much to ask.
anotknown
qwerty, afghanistan
Jan 24, 2005 12:00 AM
4
Sir,
Its really sad to go through the article.
I am working and living in the UK without any discrimination and with full liberty.But I also very well know that this freedom also comes with responsibility.For example if myself,or for that matter person from any other minority group starts abusing and attempting to convert the people here,then he/she should be prepared to be deported back.I think the same rule needs to be applied to missionaies in India as well or anyone that tries to use muscle/money power to convert people in India.Also,I would suggest a simultaneous strong,shrewd and peaceful culture revival movement in India to be started by VHP,RSS etc. so as to remove all the caste divisions from the society and make everyone feel proud of our culture,religion and historical glory.
Rajeev Mehta
Bath Spa, UK
Jan 23, 2005 12:00 AM
3
For the record, I am a Hindu, and am proud of it. But my reaction to this story is not because of my belief.
I hate (I know this is a strong word, but there is no better word to express my disgust of) religious extremism/fundamentalism of any kind, by people of any faith. The extremism in today's world is not just Islamic, but also Christian and Hindu. Why can people not be tolerant, if not respectful, of others religious beliefs. To me, forced conversion is a crime against God. You are who you were born as. Do good to others, be a good human being (every religion teaches that), do good deeds, and leave the conversion part out of these selfless noble acts. Let your God perform the miracle in the hearts of the recipients of your good deeds. The "dirty" and ungodly ideas behind tsunami relief efforts of Christian evagelists, noted in Seema Sirohi's article, can and will only spread hatred and deepen divisions amongst humankind. I would not paint all Christian missionary activities as such, nor would I brand all Muslims or Hindus as extremists.
It just seems that the very shortsighted policies of the Bush administration are giving an impetus to such dangerous Christian organizations by decreasing the separation between Church and State. If this trend continues, it will not be long before America will be a theocracy in the garb of a democracy. It will be an unfortunate triumph of Christian "extremist" minority over the saner citizens of this wonderful country. I would suggest that while Bush has a "mandate", he should proclaim America as a Judeo-Christian country, and then he can give as many speeches as he likes about spreading "liberty" (from sanity) to the "darkest" corners of the world. How ironic that the major US ally in its irresponsible wars against terrorism, is a "dark" (by extension of Falwell's understanding of Islam) corner of the world - the terrorist breeding Islamic Republic of Pakistan.
Just as an aside, in India, people from different religious faiths can reach the highest offices in the land - both the current Prime Minister and the current President of India are from minority communities. Can the oldest democracy in the world ever accept a Jewish President, let alone an African American Christian, or a woman of any color in that powerful office? Oh, What a shame!
Please allow me to relate a personal story of my encounter with a Christian evangelist in the US. I studied in a catholic school in India, and was always taught to be good human being in the Moral Science class, not a good Christian. At home, my sister and I learned about Hinduism and to respect and be tolerant of others religious beliefs. This good upbringing formed my solid moral foundation. I consider myself a Hindu, and am at ease praying in churches, gurudwaras, and the like, because I believe all these are sacred places and I can reach God from there. After one such Sunday visit to a church, a fellow Indian approaches me and engages me in a discussion. He is a Keralite Christian and very obviously a convert – Christians aren’t native to India, are they?!?! He slowly moves into attack, asking me, “Since I come to the church, what is stopping me from converting to Christianity? I should accept Jesus as my savior.” Honestly, I felt like throwing-up, just because of the insensitive remark. I respect his faith, his trust in Jesus, but did not ever feel tempted to ask him to convert to Hinduism. I have since distanced myself from this prejudiced individual, and can only hope that God bless him with adequate sanity.
Let us all commend the efforts of the good intentioned and condemn the Falwells and Grahams of the world. We have a responsibility to make this world a better place for the next generation.
Deepak Sharma
Philadelphia, USA
Jan 23, 2005 12:00 AM
2
The real test for these American Evangelicals should be that they should be asked to airlift all the people they forced to convert to christianity and take them to USA. If they are so concerned and if their so called saint Jesus Christ is so kind and if they are followers of such a kind saint, Why cant they airlift and take them to US provide them with livelihood, food, shelter. I think that would be a true test to their motives. Can these Billy, Willy, Silly Graham do so hmmm well if not I wonder whats the different between him and Bin Laden, guess both are fundamentalists in their own way.

Jai shri Ram
Jai Hind
sastri v
Hyd, India
Jan 23, 2005 12:00 AM
1
The name JESUS CHRIST never evoked a cheap feeling as it has been offlate. The American over-zealous evangelical groups which have overflowing money in their coffers are using pure money to lure poor, desperate and destitute people in different countries.

A great saint, was Jesus, its so said, god mainfests in the kindliest and gentlest manner in that part of the world where there is wickedness, perversion, lust, greed and evil, so did god in the form of Jesus on those lands to show and teach the crookish human beings to be compassionate. India, is a country of great spiritual light and wisdom, if there is a meaning to GOD it is in a land like India that the light emanates from..a TRUE SPIRITUAL LAND where tolerance, compassion and humaneness flows.

Blinded with wealth accumulated out of sinful ways (the so call Billy or Willy or Silly Graham of US and other evangelicals have millions of dollars investments in businessess included the blood covered African countries diamond mines) these groups send out people to lure poor people to chant the name of Jesus by promising food and aid and never delivering them. Its one of the most despicable and meanest ways of spreading the so called word of god. Can there be anything more ridiculous bunch of people. Even Gods from heavens must be hanging their heads in shame of the so called christian faith followers for the means they have adopted in preaching about god. Not one but several incidents have been covered in print media where the christian evangelical groups force poor desperate people to convert to get aid. Is this what the so called Jesus Christ represents and means.

India, the enlightened spiritual land has produced numerous a-la-Jesus-style saints who have truly shared wisdom and preached what God is with selfless service and without ulterior motives. In contrast, these evagelical groups are sowing the seeds of discord and creating divisions.

I ask what the hell are the organizations such as VHP, RSS and other Hindu organizations doing. These organizations do not seem to have a vision a passion for a religion that stood afloat thousands of years, why cant they help and preach and care for these poor and needy. Why cant they counter these fake,crookish,divisive evangelical groups who preach falsehood. To my knowledge all VHP does it some stupid gimmicks to built ram mandir and be in the limelight or bash the muslims in India. Such short-sighted and narrow minded organizations are these, I wonder what good VHP is it. Is it vishwa Hindu parishad or the very hopeless parishad. ???

I feel, frustrated, sad at the state of the religious fabric in India and feel sorry for all those poor people who get converted forcefully.
sastri v
Hyd, India
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