'84 riots
Oh, That Other Hindu Riot Of Passage
The assassins of Mrs Gandhi were hanged within four years, while 20 years later, the killers of 10,000 Sikhs remain unpunished. Are there two sets of laws in the country?
'84 riots
A few committed men keep the fight alive to bring the culprits to book
Sheela Reddy
There are two anniversaries so deeply etched in my mind that every year they come around I recollect with pain what happened on those two days. They occurred 20 years ago. One is October 31, when Mrs Gandhi was gunned down by her two Sikh security guards. The other is the following day, when the 'aftermath' consummated itself: frenzied Hindu mobs, driven by hate and revenge, finally killed nearly 10,000 innocent Sikhs across north India down to Karnataka.
 
 
I rang up Zail Singh. His secretary said the

president had advised me to move in with a Hindu friend.
 
 
Four years later, Mrs Gandhi's assassins Satwant Singh and Kehar Singh paid the penalty for their crime by being hanged to death in Tihar jail. Twenty years later, the killers of 10,000 Sikhs remain unpunished. The conclusion is clear: in secular India there is one law for the Hindu majority, another for Muslims, Christians and Sikhs who are in minority.

October 31, 1984: The sequence of events remains as vivid as ever. Around 11 am, I heard of Mrs Gandhi being shot in her house and taken to hospital. By the afternoon, I heard on the bbc that she was dead. For a couple of hours, life in Delhi came to a standstill. Then hell broke loose—mobs yelling khoon ka badla khoon se lenge (we'll avenge blood with blood) roamed the streets. Ordinary Sikhs going about their life were waylaid and roughed up. In the evening, I saw a cloud of black smoke billowing up from Connaught Circus: Sikh-owned shops had been set on fire. An hour later, mobs were smashing up taxis owned by Sikhs right opposite my apartment. Sikh-owned shops in Khan Market were being looted. Over 100 policemen armed with lathis lined the middle of the road and did nothing. At midnight, truckloads of men armed with cans of petrol attacked the gurudwara behind my back garden, beat up the granthi and set fire to the shrine. I was bewildered and did not know what to do. Early next morning, I rang up President Zail Singh. He would not come on the phone.
 
 
N.C. Menon, editor of The Hindustan Times, wrote of how Sikhs had "clawed their way to prosperity".
 
 
His secretary told me that the president advised me to move into the home of a Hindu friend till the trouble was over. The newly-appointed prime minister, Rajiv Gandhi, was busy receiving guests arriving for his mother's funeral; home minister Narasimha Rao did not budge from his office; the Lt Governor of Delhi had no orders to put down the rioters. Seventy-two gurudwaras were torched and thousands of Sikh houses looted. The next few days, TV and radio sets were available for less than half their price.

Mid-morning, a Swedish diplomat came and took me and my wife to his home in the diplomatic enclave. My aged mother had been taken by Romesh Thapar to his home. Our family lawyer, Anant Bir Singh, who lived close to my mother, had his long hair cut off and beard shaved to avoid being recognised as a Sikh. I watched Mrs Gandhi's cremation on TV in the home of my Swedish protector. I felt like a Jew must have in Nazi Germany. I was a refugee in my own homeland because I was a Sikh.

What I found most distressing was the attitude of many of my Hindu friends. Two couples made a point to call on me after I returned home. They were Sri S. Mulgaonkar and his wife, Arun Shourie and his wife Anita. As for the others, the less said the better. Girilal Jain, editor of The Times of India, rationalised the violence: the Hindu cup of patience, he wrote, had become full to the brim. N.C. Menon, who succeeded me as editor of The Hindustan Times, wrote of how Sikhs had "clawed their way to prosperity" and well nigh had it coming to them.
 
 
In protest against Operation Bluestar, I returned my Padma Bhushan. Among my critics: Vinod Mehta.
 
 
Some spread gossip of how Sikhs had poisoned Delhi's drinking water, how they had attacked trains and slaughtered Hindu passengers. At the Gymkhana Club where I played tennis every morning, one man said I had no right to complain after what Sikhs had done to Hindus in Punjab. At a party, another gloated "Khoob mazaa chakhaya—we gave them a taste of their own medicine." Word had gone round: 'Teach the Sikhs a lesson'.

Did the Sikhs deserve to be taught a lesson? I pondered over the matter for many days and many hours and reluctantly admitted that Hindus had some justification for their anger against Sikhs. The starting point was the emergence of Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale as a leader. He used vituperative language against the Hindus. He exhorted every Sikh to kill 32 Hindus to solve the Hindu-Sikh problem. Anyone who opposed him was put on his hit list and some eliminated. His hoodlums murdered Lala Jagat Narain, founder of the Hind Samachar group of papers. They killed hawkers who sold their papers. The list of Bhindranwale's victims, which included both Hindus and Sikhs, was a long one. More depressing to me was that no one spoke out openly against him. He had a wily patron in Giani Zail Singh who had him released when he was charged as an accomplice in the murder of Jagat Narain. Akali leaders supported him. Some like Badal and Barnala, who used to tie their beards to their chins, let them down in deference to his wishes. So did many Sikh civil servants. They lauded him as the saviour of the Khalsa Panth and called him Sant. I am proud to say I was the only one who wrote against him and attacked him as a hate-monger. I was on his hit list and continued to be so on that of his followers—for 15 long years—and was given police protection which I never asked for.

Bhindranwale, with the tacit connivance of Akali leaders like Gurcharan Singh Tohra, turned the Golden Temple into an armed fortress of Sikh defiance. He provided the Indian government the excuse to send the army into the temple complex. I warned the government in Parliament and through my articles against using the army to get hold of Bhindranwale and his followers as the consequences would be grave. And so they were. Operation Bluestar was a blunder of Himalayan proportions. Bhindranwale was killed but hailed as a martyr. Over 5,000 men and women lost their lives in the exchange of fire. The Akal Takht was wrecked.

Symbolic protests did not take long coming. I was part of it; I surrendered the Padma Bhushan awarded to me. Among the people who condemned my action was Vinod Mehta, then editor of The Observer. He wrote that when it came to choosing between being an Indian or a Sikh, I had chosen to be a Sikh. I stopped contributing to his paper. I had never believed that I had to be one or the other. I was both an Indian and a Sikh and proud of being so. I might well have asked Mehta in return, "Are you a Hindu or an Indian?" Hindus do not have to prove their nationality; only Muslims, Christians and Sikhs are required to give evidence of their patriotism.

Anti-Sikh violence gave a boost to the demand for a separate Sikh state and Khalistan-inspired terrorism in Punjab and abroad. Amongst the worst was the blowing up of Air India's Kanishka (June 23, 1985), which killed all its 329 passengers and crew, including over 30 Sikhs. Sant Harchand Singh Longowal, who signed the Rajiv-Longowal accord (July 29, 1985), was murdered while praying in a gurudwara just three weeks later. In August 1986, General A.S. Vaidya, who was chief of staff when Operation Bluestar took place, was gunned down in Pune in August 1985. The killings went on unabated for almost 10 years. Terrorists ran a parallel government in districts adjoining Pakistan which also provided them arms training and escape routes. It is estimated that in those 10 years over 25,000 were killed. Midway, the Golden Temple had again become a sanctuary for criminals. This time the Punjab police led by K.P.S. Gill was able to get the better of them with the loss of only two lives in what came to be known as Operation Black Thunder (May 13-18, 1988). The terrorist movement petered out as the terrorists turned gangsters and took to extortion and robbery.The peasantry turned its back on them. About the last action of Khalistani terrorists was the murder of chief minister Beant Singh, who was blown up along with 12 others by a suicide bomber on July 31, 1995, at Chandigarh.

It is not surprising that with this legacy of ill-will and bloodshed a sense of alienation grew among the Sikhs. It was reinforced by the reluctance of successive governments at the Centre to bring the perpetrators of the anti-Sikh pogrom of October 31 and November 1, 1984. A growing number of non-Sikhs have also come to the conclusion that grave injustice has been done to the Sikhs. Several non-official commissions of inquiry—including one headed by retired Supreme Court chief justice S.M. Sikri, comprising retired ambassadors and senior civil servants—have categorically named the guilty. However, all that the government has done is to appoint one commission of inquiry after another to look into charges of minor relevance to the issue without taking any action. The Nanavati Commission has been at it for quite some time: I rendered evidence before it over two years ago. It has asked for further extension of time, which has been granted till the end of this year. The only word I can think of using for such official procrastination is disgraceful.

I have to concede that the attitude of the bjp government led by Atal Behari Vajpayee and L.K. Advani towards the Sikhs has been more positive than that of the Congress, many of whose leaders were involved in the 1984 anti-Sikh violence. Some of it may be due to its alliance with the principal Sikh political party, the Akalis, led by Parkash Singh Badal. It also gives them a valid excuse to criticise the Congress leadership. Nevertheless, I welcomed the Congress party's return to power in the Centre because it also promises a fairer deal to other minorities like the Muslims and Christians. And I make no secret of my rejoicing over the choice of Manmohan Singh, the first Sikh to become prime minister of India and he in his turn selecting another Sikh, Montek Singh Ahluwalia, to head the Planning Commission.

The dark months of alienation are over; the new dawn promises blue skies and sunshine for the minorities with only one black cloud remaining to be blown away—a fair deal to families of victims of the anti-Sikh violence of 1984. It was the most horrendous crime committed on a mass scale since we became an independent nation. Its perpetrators must be punished because crimes unpunished generate more criminals.
'84 riots
A few committed men keep the fight alive to bring the culprits to book
Sheela Reddy
 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Oct 10, 2009 03:56 AM
169
faruki

i think quite a few white americans regard immigrants
and specially muslim ones with a certain condescension.
right or wrong.

how do you live with this.

arabs treat pakistani muslims as being inferior to them. i suppose you have read carmen bin ladens book
"inside the kingdom"-

most muslims treat their women like second class
people- you are not bothered i am sure.it is taught
in schools, madrassahs and mosques.

you entire attention is focussed on the rss, and what they think of you. its absolutely crazy.

it is normal that some communities, some races have
a superiority complex- they should not, but they do.

what you should worry most is how muslims look upon nonmuslims and women. there is an article in daily
times by a pakistani woman journalist.it will give you food for thought.

if rss, vhp were as bad as your pakistani friends ,then muslims would have a really tough in india. on 15th august m.j.akbar speaking to a mainly
muslim audience asked them to thank god that they had
stayed back in india, and not immigrated to pakistan.

today al jazeera showed a film about racist denmark.
despite what the govt does for muslim immigrants, there
is no thanks. one complaint is that they have not been helped to build a grand mosque in denmark.

that is an amazeing demand, over and above what the
country has done for them.

just consider what muslim countries do for nonmuslims-
they are lucky to stay alive .no question of even the
tiniest demand.

you have an amazeing mindset.no wonder you spend your time abuseing the rss,vhp.dr s and others in this forum. the other times is spent in complaining about the american society.

neither india or the west will change to please you.
just put that it in your pipe and smoke it.

stop your bmw.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 10, 2009 01:51 AM
168
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> ideas of hindu supremacy are not taught in indian schools.

Agreed. Such ideas are indulged in only by some nuts in the VHP and by people like Seshadri. RSS schools and RSS shakhas as well as some textbook writers may try to whitewash Hindu history and demonize muslim history, but that is not the same thing as teaching Hindu supremacy.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 09, 2009 03:13 PM
167
faruki

its no longer about islam and muslims with me-

nonmuslims can not decide how muslims think and act-
they are on their own, as pointed by mfr and many others. nonmuslims should disengage from them,if liveing with them is difficult- you have also suggested that nonmuslims should avoid witeing about
them.

what i have done is only to expose your lies and hypocracy-

here is an example-

you have used enormous time to place the blame for
partition on sarwarkar and golwalkar. they wanted
a united india. they had a idealogy which was hostile
towards muslims, but they did not want partition.

pakistan was the idea of a muslim scholar in a british
university many decades ago, and began to frutify
as the date for departure of the british came closer.

muslim elite, and the masses along with them decided
under jinnah,s leadership to demand pakistan. their
caveats for a united india were impossible for nehru,gandhi and patel to fullfill. they just gave up.

now you can see for yourself, that pakistani,s revere
jinnah as a saviour, and founder of the nation. they
want pakistan to be closer to saudi arabia and the
muslim world. they dislike and hate hindus, and this
is taught to them in their schools.this is the view of the american and british governments. aatish taseer has written about this. he knows pakistan well,considering his father is governor of punjab in pakistan.he is a professional journalist and has worked
for well known western media. you have dismissed his
writeing as being due to his rejection by his
pakistani father. completely absurd.

ideas of hindu supremacy are not taught in indian schools. it is clear that pakistan was born from the
innermost desires of indian muslims,just as muslims
in kashmir want a hindu free independent muslim state-
they say so openly-

no one can understand your pointless efforts to distort
facts-the pity is that there are few indian muslims who are willing to accept inconvenient truths, with the exception of m.j.akbar- practically none.

pakistani journalists are now writeing about the dismal truths of their society- i correspond with some,
but it is difficult- with indian muslims it is impossible.

just as a aside, al jazeera has made a film showing
denmark to be a racist state- there are 200,000 muslims
liveing here as immigrants and refugees from their
own countries.many are unemployed and live entirely
on well fare, and many say 1000 young muslims have
organised themselves in armed gangs. main occupation
is crime, drug smuggleing etc.

the home minister said that he could not understand
why these people behaved in such a manner in peaceful,
friendly denmark. i am sure you have another explanation,as you usually have.

the descendants of sarvarkar and golwalkar are never
mentioned in crime statistics.

you spend the entire day answering comments, makeing
ugly retorts- you have become the ugly muslim in this forum. you are of no service to muslims, christians
or hindus. just a programmed robot who acts in a agressive manner at the slightest excuse-
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 09, 2009 06:35 AM
166
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> regarding your defence of islam,muslims.

The examples you give show that you either do not understand what is being said in this forum or you distort and lie. You are driving yourself crazy over Muslims and Faruki. It is Muslim, Muslims, Muslims all day long! You are sick.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 09, 2009 03:40 AM
165
faruki

regarding your defence of islam,muslims

aaa defence of aurangzeb- a fanatic,a bigot and a
murderer. hated by sikhs especially.

bbb defence of sohrabbudin, irshad jehan solely because
they are muslims-

ccc pretence that godhra was due to an accidental fire

ddd allways equateing fanatics pakistani,s with indians, despite the numerous killings of indians
by the former.

eee praise for hamas, mujahideen despite the terror
launched by these people.

fff turning a blind eye to genocides of innocent
people by muslims- eg bangladesh, darfur.
down playing the terrorist actions of simi, and other
such organisations.blameing hindus for killing
karkare- or trying to spread doubts about them.

i leave it others to bring forth other facts.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 09, 2009 12:31 AM
164
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> faruki is a man with no mission other then to defend islam and muslims.

Can you cite some examples of my defending Islam and Muslims, you liar? All I seem to be doing is to attack hate-pracharaks like you!
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 08, 2009 02:22 PM
163
to All posters

faruki is a man with no mission other then to defend
islam and muslims.

he has perfected the art of the retort- apes do that in zoos- you make a face at them and they will return
the compliment.

there are enough of writers, journalists and politicians in the world who criticise islam and muslims. we do not need to do this in this forum.

it just provokes the ape in faruki.

recently pakistani journalists are on a soul searching
mission where they confess to all the sins and ommisions muslims in pakistan are guilty of.muslims
in india are a bit behind the pakistani,s in some ways.

they are poorer, and lack a class of educated elite
who unlike that of pakistan - who interact with the world community.

faruki has admitted all the blemishes in muslim society
which one could think of. he admits that islam is ruled
by extremists, and the community is backward except for a very few individuals. he admits that it could take a century or more for them to reform and catch
up because of the inherent road blocks in islam.

muslim for reform has said so much. he has suggested
that reform of muslims in india is a long process,and
the rest of indians plus some muslims should bypass
them and go for progress.

we need not say more. why harass old fauki. we know
him well. he has mastered the art of abuse, the insult
and the sharp retort.

faruki ofcource thinks of himself in quite another way-
benign,intelligent,well informed-

now i ask you- is it worth joining him in this game of
mutual bickering ,gali galoch- no one can beat him at this game.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 08, 2009 03:29 AM
162
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> i note that your adverseries are giveing up. few now write to you.

This is your third post addressed to me just today!!! Don't waste my time with your rubbish.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 08, 2009 02:31 AM
161
faruki

i note that your adverseries are giveing up.

few now write to you.

soon you will have no one to fight with, hate or curse,

feed pidgeons in the park. be nice to older people,
children. give up hate- listen to the dalai lama-
it will change your life for the better.

dont be a ornerry critter.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 08, 2009 01:11 AM
160
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> your messages are full of hate.

Actually I fight hate, especially hate basd on ignorance, like yours.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 08, 2009 12:51 AM
159
faruki

i dont think you are achieveing much with your exchange
of hate messages- or do you believe that you are
influenceing world opinion.

you are just wasteing your time- but then i suppose you
have nothing much to do. i suggest that you did something useful-as much as your talents permit-

in contrast there are some who find my comments, wise and humarous. your messages are full of hate, with quaint phrases, and foul words. allah will not approve -and you are in danger of being rejected at heavens gate.

watch it.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 08, 2009 12:11 AM
158
Ghai,

>> If he had not made statement 'Barra tree--" when asked about sikhs' masscare.

That was not a good thing to say, but it was said 16 days after the riots had ended, so it could not have contributed to the violence.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 07, 2009 11:52 PM
157
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> i wonder what faruki would write about if the babri masjid had not been demolished or if the gujerat
massacre had not taken place.

Do you think this forum is for idle, empty-headed chatter? What would you write about if you had any brains?
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 07, 2009 08:05 PM
156
'jinnah wanted a home for indian muslims, but one which was liberal and secular. pakistani muslims have failed
him. he did not understand islam or his own people.
many pakistani journalists will agree "

Jinnah created a Nation by spilling blood of innocents.The seeds of hatered he sowed among Hindu Muslims will not leave us easily.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Oct 07, 2009 07:53 PM
155
"He can be faulted for that, but not for instigating the massacre"

Faruki

If he had not made statement 'Barra tree--" when asked about sikhs' masscare.

Shekar Gupta Resident Editor of Indian Express had asked 'what proof we have for Modi's culpabilty ? " He was talking of proof against Heads of Sate or Nations.If Modi is really involved sooner or later he will be held responsible the Courts .But before that by holding him reponsible for Gujrat

We have already given enough excuses to organisations like SIMMI to kill us.And they have killed hunderds of innocents.In the end the Muslims are at the receiving end .They all blamed for Terror organisations'actions.

That is the net result .More the propoganda against him more Modi becomes powerfull Thanks to Seculars.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Oct 07, 2009 03:31 PM
154
mr ghai

i wonder what faruki would write about if the babri masjid had not been demolished or if the gujerat
massacre had not taken place.

i suppose he would have found other greviences-

on the other hand we hindus who are named as sanghis,
bigots or neo nazis might as well admit the truth.

aaa

most of us are not bothered about the babri masjid
demolition. we dont go around crying about the destruction of our own priceless old temples- it is
pointless-

bbb

most hindus believe that the muslims threw the first
stone, by burning the sabarmati coach, with the kar sevaks. banerjees clean chit is regarded as a further
aggravation-that muslims will not accept their guilt is
typical. even after the nine elleven bombings of the
wtc, there were many muslims who believed that it was
done by the cia and the israelis,to defame the muslims.

it is a fact that that muslims in all over celebrated
this tragedy by going around in their cars, and expressing their great happiness .

after 26th november pakistani,s refused to admit that
the terrorists were pakistani,s- what a farce.
kasabs family was moved from their home village.

it is perhaps best for all to admit our bias. we mourn
at the sufferings of our own community- but just for
a day or so. we are less bothered with sufferings of
other communities.i am sorry and ashamed about the gujerat killings. but what the hell. is it not time to forget and move on.

faruki and kumar have a big grouse against hindus.
let us admit that they may have reasons for this. however for their own sakes, its time to close the
book on the past. however this will not happen ,if it is this what interests them most. the talk of justice is clean forgotten when people refer to muslim atrocities in the past, or the enormous killings , barbarism that take place every day without fail in the muslim world.

justice,fairness are a fig leaf to cover the inequities
of their own communities.

finally india and hindus are usually mentioned for
some thing funny or good. pakistan and afghanistan,
are allways in the news for the wrong reasons.

from my personal experiences i will say that there are
some good people in society. there are more who are
bad or just the could not care less types-

muslims liveing in india expect others to be fair
minded, and decent. they do not expect these qualities
from say pakistani,s. despite the horrible experience
india has had with pakistani,s, many muslims in india have a soft corner for them.

indians should have learnt by now the good qualities
and failings of other communities.there is no point
in haveing great expectations. this is a sure road to
frustration.

jinnah wanted a home for indian muslims, but one which was liberal and secular. pakistani muslims have failed
him. he did not understand islam or his own people.
many pakistani journalists will agree with this-
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 07, 2009 12:57 PM
153
Ghai,

>> Then why he subsequently did not dismiss the Home Minister and other Senior officers subsequently ?

He can be faulted for that, but not for instigating the massacre.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 07, 2009 12:39 PM
152
"Neither you nor I have gone through the experience of having our mothers assassinated in the prime of their lives, so we do not know what mental state we would be in in the first 72 hours after such an event, but the Home Minister and other senior ministers should have acted with a lot more dispatch."

faruki

Then why he subsequently did not dismiss the Home Minister and other Senior officers subsequently ? Why they were sheilded at all ?
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Oct 07, 2009 12:26 PM
151
Ghai,

>> Rajiv Gandhi had military at his beck and call in Delhi.He did not asked for Military which controlled riots once they moved in Delhi.

Not calling the military early enough was a grave mistake. I put the blame on the Home Minister. Neither you nor I have gone through the experience of having our mothers assassinated in the prime of their lives, so we do not know what mental state we would be in in the first 72 hours after such an event, but the Home Minister and other senior ministers should have acted with a lot more dispatch.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 07, 2009 12:12 PM
150
"rajiv gandhi can be blamed for not trying to stop
the sikh massacre."

lalit and faruki

1. Modi is blamed for leaving murderers free for 48 hrs.

Rajiv Gandhi had military at his beck and call in Delhi.He did not asked for Military which controlled riots once they moved in Delhi.

IN DELHI CONGRESSI GOON WERE FREE FOR 48 HRS .

2. And in those 48 hours Congressi goons killed 3000 plus sikhs -the number is 4.5 times more than muslims killed in Gujrat !

3. Also In Gujrat 370 Hindus too were killed in Police firings all over Gujrat .

HOW MANY Rioters were KILLED IN DELHI the seat of HOME MINISTER OF INDIA AND PRIME MINISTER ?? AND DID CONGRESSI SECULAR POLICE KILL ANY RIOTER IN INDIA IN 84 ??

None !!!!

Compare 1000 all India figure of Sikhs killed in 1984 with 767 muslims kiled in India .STILL IF MODI IS MASS MURDERER THEN WHAT RAJIV IS ??
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Oct 07, 2009 01:53 AM
149
>> >> india should forget the ghosts of the past.

>> A revenge motive would be wrong, but the law must follow its course, however capricious it may be.

While that is true, if Modi/BJP reaches out to the community, accommodates in party leadership, give fair representation in government, apologizes, condemns the events involving violence in the name of religion etc, that would still be a major positive step.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Oct 07, 2009 01:50 AM
148
faruki

people like you are a permanent obstacle to reconciliation.

your language is an indiacation of a very ill mannered
and stupid person. your useing the word bigot is laughable-

i dont think you can change-
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 07, 2009 01:38 AM
147
>> if sanghis wish to tarnish rajiv,then its no worse then the other side tarnishing sanghis and modi.

Making such distinctions must be difficult for empty-headed bigots.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 07, 2009 01:25 AM
146
faruki

if sanghis wish to tarnish rajiv,then its no worse
then the other side tarnishing sanghis and modi.

on the whole the revenge mentality which is obvious in
all communities,however fair will result in continuation of bad blood.

i would point out that gujerat killings are not the
worst that have happened in this world.

i am sure that nothing earth shakeing will result from the enquiries. those who want modi to be hanged and
quartered will be left with a unrequited wish.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 07, 2009 01:11 AM
145
faruki and mr ghai

sikhs are not lily white.

they were the ones who killed muslims- hindus were
less violent.

under bhindrawalle the sikh fanatics killed many hindus. it is known to all. ask mr gill who ended the
sikh terrorism.

sikhs blew up an air india plane killing over 300
passengers. sikhs have a reputation for violence in
canada, and else where.

the sikhs in delhi were killed by goons lead by congress, who were mad at the killing of indira gandhi.
it is so obvious that only a fool would deny it.

regarding special laws for dfferent people, khushwant
singh is being hateful and stupid.the courts in india deliver justice, though they take their own time doing
so. have not courts taken up the cases of killings
of muslims in gujerat.

khushwant singh is a irrational man-and an opportunist.
he does not attack the congress because that is bad business. few respect him in delhi-
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 07, 2009 01:03 AM
144
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> india should forget the ghosts of the past.

A revenge motive would be wrong, but the law must follow its course, however capricious it may be.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 07, 2009 12:40 AM
143
Ghai,

>> "The assassins of Mrs Gandhi were hanged within four years, while 20 years later, the killers of 10,000 Sikhs remain unpunished. Are there two sets of laws in the country?" Kushwant Singh.

Thanks for quoting from Khushwant Singh's OUTLOOK article. You are right that the all India figure is 10,000, whereas the Delhi figure is 3100. Why did you change the last sentence in the quote from Khushwant Sing? He did not say, "Are there two sets of laws in the country?" He had said, "The conclusion is clear: in secular India there is one law for the Hindu majority, another for Muslims, Christians and Sikhs who are in minority." He also said in the Sikh Times, "I don't think Rajiv Gandhi was himself a party to the anti-Sikh pogrom."

>> Sanghi is worse or jaundiced Secular ?

Sikhs and seculars are both concerned about the anti-Sikh riots, but the Sanghis mostly want to tarnish Rajiv.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 06, 2009 04:04 PM
142
faruki

rajiv gandhi can be blamed for not trying to stop
the sikh massacre.

not for instigateing it. he was a genteman.

regarding godhra, commonsense says that it was done
by thugs,and hell raisers. it is amazeing that there was no intervention by authorities. even if it was a
accident, this still is a blot on the railway authorities. can a coach burn on a railway station in
any civilised country.

it is more then likely that the ineffective police
just looked away.

the same thing happened in mumbai. mr ghai has written
here that 2 terrorists killed so many people on the
vt station. here again the police failed.

the thing is that the police in india collects haftas,
serves politicians, and does not take its real duties
of protecting the public seriouslt at all. i would
never call a policeman for help in delhi-

i consider them to be criminals in uniform.

i am not convinced that modi was the primus motor in
the gujerat massacre. however he was guilty of not
stopping it,at the start.

why did congresswallahs not take a plane to gujerat, and make efforts to stop the killings. did they have
a secret agenda, of letting the bjp-modi getting
involved in violence and killings, and use this a all weather,all time weapon against them

anyway india should forget the ghosts of the past.
there is much to be done for the liveing,who are poor
deprived and forlorn.

i ask you- does this not make more sense then the
perpetual bmw.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 06, 2009 02:21 PM
141
""When did the figure jump from 3100 to 12000"

faruki :

"The assassins of Mrs Gandhi were hanged within four years, while 20 years later, the killers of 10,000 Sikhs remain unpunished. Are there two sets of laws in the country?" Kushwant Singh

Even 10000 killed is 17 times more than 770 .

"but the Sanghis who are the most vociferous in wanting to tar Rajiv!"

Sanghi is worse or jaundiced Secular ?
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Apr 27, 2009 12:00 AM
140
"Brother in background, Sajjan holds fort
27 Apr 2009, 0515 hrs IST, Ambika Pandit, TNN
new delhi :

The Congress may have replaced Sajjan Kumar with his brother Ramesh Kumar as South Delhi candidate for pacifying the Sikh
community but the ground reality is clear. Sajjan is the de facto candidate and continues to be at the forefront of the Congress campaign in the constituency.

"Bhai Sajjan Kumar ki jai. Button dabao haath pe, vote for Congress,'' thundered a crowd of supporters as they walked behind their leader through the lanes of Indira Camp JJ cluster in the Okhla area on Sunday. In the sweltering April heat, Sajjan wished people, accepted garlands and appealed to them to vote for Congress. Amid the sloganeering, Sajjan told this correspondent that Ramesh would join him in a few minutes as he was on another padyatra nearby. As Ramesh emerged from the background, it were only the pamphlets that announced that he was the real aspirant.

As he walked though the lanes of Kalkaji Transit Camp, Ramesh Kumar made a bid to mildly assert himself. He explained: "We are running short of time. That's why my family, including bhai Sajjan Kumarji and his son Jagparvesh, are campaigning in different areas.''

Ramesh Kumar's name did not ring a bell among the people of the area but they said they will vote for the party and not the candidate. That the party is going all out to build momentum in favour of Ramesh Kumar was visible as Kalkaji MLA Subhash Chopra was seen leading the supporters and Ramesh Kumar through the lanes. Chopra was seen shaking hands, urging supporters to vote for Congress and introducing Ramesh Kumar to the crowds.

Watching from the sidelines, Mangat Ram, a vendor, was busy selling chowmein to the customers. As the sound of the drums died down and the lane turned quiet, he told Times City with nonchalance that people here would vote for the Congress no matter who the candidate was. As supporters went about praising the improved water supply and better drains, at a distance Maya Devi watched the political drama and exclaimed: "Kaam to hua hai magar jo zaroori hain who to reh gaya hai (A lot of work needs to be done).'' Maya said that while the water situation has improved, many houses still don't get water. She further pointed that no politician has so far managed to give a convincing reply as to what would be the fate of the Transit Camp.

If Maya was bitter at Transit Camp, Sajjan Kumar's appearance at Indira camp triggered anger among some residents. As Sajjan passed her house, Parul screamed: "Pehle paani to do. (Give us water).'' Other women and men also complained that there was harldy any water supply and people had to live on dirty water filled from the supply line of the main drain on the main raod. "We will vote for a candidate who can arrange water for us,'' was the overriding sentiment. "


Over to Sardar Awarey
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Mar 09, 2005 12:00 AM
139
I agree that the rioters who murdered the Sikhs in the 1984 riots should be hunted down and brought to justice.

However, let us not forget those inncoents who were killed by the terrorists in Punjab. Those people travelling in buses which were stopped and who were then gunned down. Just because they happened to be of the wrong community at the wrong place at the wrong time.

I would be deeply satisfied if for once, our intellectuals would raise their voices and their pens for these poor (literally and figuratively) people from Uttar Pradesh, Bihar and also from Punjab.

Believe me, every time I see this lament for the slain Sikhs without a single mention of those slain by the Sikhs I tend to dismiss it as hypocrisy. Out of hand. And I am sure that I am not alone.

So Mr. Khushwant Singh, do ask for the perpetrators of the 1984 riots to be brought to book. I share your sentiments. But if you want me to join in ask that the perpetrators of terrorism, many of whom are still alive and free to be brought to justice as well. And then you will see that my voice will join in yours.
Ratnakar
Mumbai, India
Nov 26, 2004 12:00 AM
138
I would like to Sudarshan Bengani. Pls do not refer to Khushwant as learned. From the article he wrote, it is pretty clear that he is neither learned nor able.
Vineet
Mumbai, India
Nov 19, 2004 12:00 AM
137
great writing ekaadmi.Keep writing.
You ended by saying "need more ,DS"
Yes,yeh dil maange more.
EK FAN
j asgutd
madison, usa
Nov 18, 2004 12:00 AM
136
Hey Joe,
"
...
We comprehend everything far better. That iswhy wearealiveand kicking despite India'sefforts to destroy us over the last 50 years.
..."

Stay off the Toddy ... seems to be pretty potent ...
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Nov 17, 2004 12:00 AM
135
Yusuf Pakistani,

So this is how your country earns foreign exchange?

Pakistan's Khan gave Iran bomb-grade uranium

Reuters Posted online: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 at 1805 hours IST

Vienna, November 17: Iran obtained an unknown quantity of weapons-grade uranium and a design for a nuclear bomb from a well-known Pakistani scientist, an exiled opposition group that has given accurate information before said on Wednesday.

"(Abdul Qadeer) Khan gave Iran a quantity of HEU (highly enriched uranium) in 2001, so they already have some," Farid Soleiman, a spokesman for the National Council of Resistance of Iran (NCRI).

Soleiman said Khan, who ran a global nuclear black market that supplied Libya and Iran with uranium-enrichment technology until it was shut down earlier this year, also gave Iran a Chinese-developed warhead design sometime between 1994 and 1996

No, it is not I who is saying this- your own aksitani brothers saying it. Tch! Tch! Tch!
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Nov 17, 2004 12:00 AM
134

Hey Yusuf Pakistani,

You say that Indian IT industry is on decline, then read this:

Russian President Vladimir Putin will start his India visit on December 3. During the trip, lasting a little over 48 hours, he will devote 24 hours to Bangalore, interacting with heads of IT majors there. And helping him link-up will be Infosys mentor N R Narayana Murthy.

Moscow is working hard on attracting IT companies to invest in a big way in Russia and has been pressing for greater cooperation in this sector. Its own expertise in software technology provides a good platform for tie-ups with Indian majors.

Officials said Putin’s visit to Bangalore was aimed at building confidence among Indian I-T companies to invest in Russia.

The importance being attached to the second part of Putin’s visit can be gauged from the fact that a 15-member team, comprising Russian I-T representatives, will be reaching Bangalore on December 1. They will hold a round table with Indian I-T heads and gain first-hand experience on the functioning of some of these companies.

So Yusuf the India-hater! Sour grapes or mere wishful thinking on yr Paki mind!
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Nov 17, 2004 12:00 AM
133
Yusuph of Pakistan,

"Every single ethnic group that is present in India is also present in Pakistan." Yeah, but like a second hand citizen in the Islamic republic of Pakistan.

"We also have a Constitution and regular elections." And your Military generals piss on that Constitution of yours. And yes, Mush baby makes sure that he gets 102% votes in his favor, despite the so-called independent political parties making hue and cry about it. Don't think we know.

"Your elections are about as shambolic as ours. Otherwise, how do you think that Laloo would be elected each year." Our elections ae free and fair for the simple reason that idiots like Laloo get elected.

"Why is it withdrawing troops from Kashmir. Why was Mr. Singh given such a fiery welcome there?" Because we are not suicidal like you Pakis. And the Jehadis sent by you are causing the problem.

"We comprehend everything far better. That iswhy wearealiveand kicking despite India'sefforts to destroy us over the last 50 years. Get real, Indians. Theworld iswiser than you think and so arePakistanisand Bangladeshis. Condescension, arrogance, hype will get you no where. Beware of the falling IT and BPO market which isshifting to Israel, Iran, East European countries, etc. " Alive? at the mercy and jhootan of US who uses you like a condom (accepted by Benazir Bhutto) and throw you in the dust-bin after using you. BTW, Microsoft and like tha many hundereds of IT companies are coming to India for IT business. But then, Pakis only know about RDX and IED, which is yr speciality. So don't worry about our IT market- for we are the best and we say it arrogantly. And this arrogance comes out of education which is not taught in your madarsas.

So while you wish, pray, hope and bark for the destruction of India, we move on- majestically like an elephant, Yusuph, the Paki asshole.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Nov 17, 2004 12:00 AM
132
Joseph
--------

Lets forget the acrimony, and behave well with each other.

Most Danes are members of the Danske Folke Kirke, as is my wife. It costs about USD 300/year
and thats why I opted out of it. If membership was free, then I would have stayed on.

In Denmark custom and tradition means a lot, and that is why most people are members of the Folke Kirke. Peter who studied with my daughter, is a
priest in the church, but as he says, he does not have any firm spiritual convictions. The same goes for me. So I guess there are a fair number who beieve in god and the same goes for the nonbelievers. No one talks much about it.

On the whole most Danes are honest, truthful and
willing to help each other, and also other
less well off countries.This in my view is
Christianity in a nut shell, not whether one believes in Christ and the angels. No disrespect
intended to the latter.

I think that I have got the point, that India is not much better then Pakistan or Bangladesh in
material indexes. I travel to India, and I am appalled at the poverty. I wish at times that I was Santa Claus with a huge sack filled
with all forms of lovely gifts which I could distribute to all the poor I meet. However unfortuntaely life is not like that. I do know
that India besides haveing its more then justifiable share of crooks and carpet baggers,
has a large number of extremely talented people,
who will help to improve things. Not enough I am afraid, because India has a immense backlog of poverty.

However all of us Indians are proud of various things Indian which are firstly our democratic constitution ,a basic committment to human values,a vast elite in the knowledge based
industries, and many talented people in painting, literature, music and movies. There is universal acceptance of India's achievments in these fields.

Contrary to your statements India is whizzing past most nations in high tech industries, and this I know from daily reports in the business
media. One would have to be awfully contrarian to deny this. One of the problems with our neighbours is that whilst our youth is hooked
into the international hitech and business circuit the youth in your country has a strong love affair with Islam.

Maybe I should have left the last thing out. But
I think its true, not just in Pakistan but for many muslims liveing in the western world.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Nov 17, 2004 12:00 AM
131
Mr. Puranik: May I inform you that every single ethnic group that is present in India is also present in Pakistan.

We also have a Constitution and regular elections. Your elections are about as shambolic as ours. Otherwise, how do you think that Laloo would be elected each year.

I never said anything about Real Indians, some one else did. I just wanted the definition.

If Indians are so great, why is India in a mess in the East, North and South and Gujrat in the West. Why did it back down from the eye ball to eye ball confrontion? Why is it withdrawing troops from Kashmir. Why was Mr. Singh given such a fiery welcome there?

We comprehend everything far better. That iswhy wearealiveand kicking despite India'sefforts to destroy us over the last 50 years. Get real, Indians. Theworld iswiser than you think and so arePakistanisand Bangladeshis. Condescension, arrogance, hype will get you no where. Beware of the falling IT and BPO market which isshifting to Israel, Iran, East European countries, etc.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 17, 2004 12:00 AM
130
DS,

"real Indins" are those Indians who bad-mouth India and her achievements and think like Pakistani Jehadis or fidayeens.

" Real Indians" are those Indians who can call all Hindus, the fundamentalists and all Muslims, the persecuted, wronged, poor and un-educated because of the fault of Hindus.

"real Hindus" are those who live in this 'wretched' country, eat its salt, enjoy its democracy and freedom to abuse Mother India and make holes in the same 'thali'in which they eat.

"Real Indians" are those who justify the killing of innocent Indians in the name of religion of peace and yet call this Hindu country communal.

"Real Indian" are those who produce countless children in the name of religion, who do not educate them or send them to madarsas where they teach you to hate Hindus and to convert them or kill them.

"Real Indians" are those who live in this country and sing songs of some Arab/Islamic country and Arabic religion and dream of converting the world into 'Dar-ul-Islam'- the heaven that existed in 7th Century.


Need more, DS?
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Nov 17, 2004 12:00 AM
129
khalsa did not hear about godhra train in usa becasue english media just ignored it.they were too busy and almost full of only post godhra.This reflects on the english media isalmic pimps and secular scum
j asgutd
madison, usa
Nov 17, 2004 12:00 AM
128
Ekaaadmi,great response to khalsa.Keep writing I am a fan.
j asgutd
madison, usa
Nov 17, 2004 12:00 AM
127

Mahesh Puranik,

Well said my friend! Bravo!

But to put it across to a person with closed mind, like Joseph, or with a perverted sense of loyalty to the cause that is Islam, is like 'bhains ke aage been bajana'

If Joseph, the Islamic jehadi posing as Christian Pakistani and defender of democracy, religious toleranace and Islamic faith in Pakistan has the slightest traces of brain, he already knows the truth that you are telling about India.

Not only the diversity of cultures, the educational base the freedom of expression and will of the people to excel and progress despite massive problems we face, is something one with a jaundiced views through a Pakistani lens can not envision, understand, appreciate or fathom.

Many like him are just jealous of a country large, powerful and diverse like an elephant and hence act like dogs who bark, as elephant walk majestically.

Great writing!
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Nov 17, 2004 12:00 AM
126
Prabhu Singh Khalsa,

It is quite apparent that just like yr Khush uncle, u r under the influence of something strong while writing this letter.

Being an American Sikh, you are not even aware of the problem Hindus and Sikhs in Punjab faced in 1984 or before and have like a brainwashed person vomited the prejudices, biased opinion and untruths about Hindus.

So I suggest, better go and read about Bhindarwale, the terrorist, and the murders of thousands of innocent Hindus and sikhs committed by him and his goondas. He may be a sant for u but the world knows him as a terrorist and terrorism is what he is famous for.

Yes, Kushwant has written quite an insulting article- insulting to Hindus.

If the only reason to qualify for being a sant and respected is "he said he would die for his cause and he did. He went to the Akal Takht with just a few men, because he knew the attack was imminent and wanted to put up what ever defense he could offer." then all the fidayeen and Islamic jehadis are big sants.

The shameful fact is that he was instrumental in death of thousands of innocents at the Hari Mandir Sahib that day. He was using a holy place for terrorist activities and not for the good of the people of Punjab/India

"Even Kushwant's figures are false, at least 250,000, a quater MILLION Sikhs have been killed in and since 1984. " oh yeah- show any evidence,I challenge you.

You are proud of being American and claim US has not killed so many innocent people- you are young and stupid to have not read Vietnam, and now Iraq stories.

"Most Indians have no clue of what really happened to the Sikhs and think the Sikhs are at fault"- and you have a clue that Hindus were at fault and sun rises from the west.

"I was only 4 years old when bluestar occured yet I had the conviction and clarity of mind that even at that age I would have given my life in defense of the Hari Mandir Sahib. " you still are 4 yrs old and you are talking like a jehadi willing to die or kill.

"It's easy to sit in your lofty apartment and write of the torture, rape and murders of lesser fortunate Sikhs. " That applies to you and what about the death of thoussands of innocent Hindus and those in KAnishka? Only Sikh's lives are important to u, idiot?

"If India were truly a democracy it would have punished the guilty and insured this kind of thing would never happen again. But it did happen again in Gujrat in 2002 and again the GOI is getting off scott free and the Hindu majority does not know of the plight of their fellow countrymen" And did you hear abt some train tragedy in Godhra where innocent Hindus were burnt alive, you naiive and ignorant, PRABHU SINGH KHALSA! Obviously not.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Nov 17, 2004 12:00 AM
125
This is in response to Mr.Joseph's post....

The entire objective of his posts seem to tell everybody else:
Hey, Indians...why do you behave so arrogantly when you talk of Pakistan...why do you behave so superior when you are in the same mud as we are? ....

The reasons we behave so superior and are proud are simple: we are a multi-cultural democracy...only after living in the US where each city looks like and smells like the other have I really started appreciating the diversity of my country...diversity is a GOOD thing...the US immigration and University system has to create special policies to induct diversity...that exists from time immemorial in my country...I can boast that I dont have to travel far to see a different culture, hear a different language, or get a different perspective; I just have to take a walk in my neighourhood. I can be proud of the sands and palaces or Rajasthan, the words written by Tagore, the valor of the Sikhs, Film actors and sarson ka saag from Punjab, Film actresses from Tamilnadu,Bhupen Hazarika from Assam, zunka Bhakar from my native Maharashtra, Portuguese flavored music from Goa and Muslim cuisine and culture from Lucknow and MILLIONS of things that cant be mentioned here...I just pity the people of Pakistan, including YOU, my unfortunate friend because inspite of being it being your birthright on account of being blood brothers, your ancestors chose to let go of it just because they were not willing to live in a spirit of live and let live with people who looked, dressed, had different beliefs than themselves and forget about the rich history their ancestors had been a part of before they got converted by force. It's a loss you and your countrymen cannot even begin to comprehend. As they say...it's your loss.

Sure, there have been problems to the unity of our country from time to time...we dont always get together...we dont behave like good boys.....we have Meeruts, 1984, Gujrat etc...add all the things you have pointed in your posts,Mr.Joseph..but..we do have two things which will always show us the way: Our Constitution and democracy it protects. Sure, it's not easy..but each person in my country gets a chance to VOTE and the constitution GUARANTEES him equality..whoever he is, Hindu, Sikh, and yes..a Muslim . We dont look down the barrell of a General's gun to make our political choices. Sure, it's slow, is plagued by identity politics, criminals use it, there's corruption, doesn't make sense with illiterate masses, etc.. But, look again, mr.Joseph....even in much reviled Bihar and UP..democracy has enabled a historically downtrodden section - the so called lower caste to wield POWER and gain dignity. It will be while before the people realize that democracy means responsibility for their own future. Once that day dawns..everything will fall into place. It is absolutely true that the best things that have happened to my country have happened when our constitution has been honored and we have gone by the good book and the most shameful situation has happend when we have gone away from our constitution which is the Greatest document EVER written. Try reading it,Mr.Joseph, if you claim to be open minded and try comparing it with you country's.

The second thing i am proud of will take a significant amount of time for your country to achieve. The first , NEVER.

And as for the things you seem to be proud of:
'higher calorie intake' and maybe cricket???? We'll reach there....... eventually.

Take care....

Mahesh Puranik
Normal, United States
Nov 17, 2004 12:00 AM
124
Hey Joe,

"On these pages, I thought I was having a dialogue with REAL Indians! "

Im curious ... What do you men by REAL Indians ??

Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Nov 17, 2004 12:00 AM
123
It is 02:20 hours here. Dev Boren Corum.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 17, 2004 12:00 AM
122
No condescension, terms of endearment or otherwise, and foul language from now on, please, when writing about me. I do not need any of them.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 17, 2004 12:00 AM
121
Mr. Lalit Bagai, thanks to the Internet, I was able to learn that 90 per cent of Danes belong to the "official" church. The remainder are Roman Catholics, Hindus, Muslims, Others and those who have declared "no faith". There were no numbers given for Atheist. Hence if there are any Atheists, and, I am sure, there must be, they are all "closet atheists" who are ashamed to declare their inclination lest Mr. Bush beat them too into oblivion.

Through the Internet, I also learned that Danish Newspapers carry an Astrology column. Of course, I have no evidence about how many believe in Astrology. It would be significant. Otherwise, this column would have disappeared after a while.

Hence by your reasoning, we are left with very few modern Danes!

Why can not we have substantiated facts in these columns instead of sweeping generalisations based on anecdotal evidence. All this will need is patience and a few clicks on a mouse.

Unfortunately, everyone is so rushed up to rebut what I say that they forget to look for the truth. How did Mr. Lalit Bagai end one of his earlier postings? He wrote SATYAMATE JAYATE. I will reciprocate his wishes.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 17, 2004 12:00 AM
120
Mr.EKAAMAADMI'S attempt at what he thinks passes for sarcastic humour indicates a sick heart and a sicker mind. His language and tone speak for itself. I do not need any one to put his twisted words in my mouth, and never ever from Mr.EKAAMAADMI.

It is interesting to note that followers of a religion that is centuries, if not ages, older than Islam continue to brand Islam as medieval. As a matter of fact and observation, there are many practices in the other religions that are more medieval.

Mr.Raghu Reddy, I do not believe all that Indian journals say. Or for that matter, what any newspaper or journal says. In order to obtain a balanced picture about India, I visit Outlook India, purchase India Today and visit the Times of India and the Statesman as well. All journalista and journals have, at one time or the other in their lives, to sell their soul to the company store. For therein lies their long time survival.

I have to thank you for your fortrightness in pointing out the warts in India and the Indian way of life. Something which most others are unwilling to do.

Does any one of the contributors to these pages really believe that Muslims can be beaten into submission and/or oblivion without a fight back, however, unpalatable and grotesque it may appear to most?

Is what Bush and Company are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan, the acts of Angels? Is it not what they are doing equally upalatable and grotesque? Of course, two wrongs do not make a right. However, one wrong will almost always beget another from the other side resulting in a never ending spiral which is what we are seing at present.

On these pages, I thought I was having a dialogue with REAL Indians! I never believed I was wrong.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 16, 2004 12:00 AM
119
I was always led to believe that India's journals and journalists were honest. It seems that when you do not like what they say, they are peddling bilge

Dear Joseph, for a guy who believes that India and Indians are no better than Pakistan or Pakis, your faith in Indian journalists though is touching! Pray, are our journos just as honest as Paki journos? Or are they actually better!? If better, why are Paki journos such a lousy lot?

You insinuate that my opinion of Indian journos stems from my not liking what they say. That is only partly true. Why do I have to like it when what they say has no basis in fact? But more importantly, why do they say what they say? The answer is that they lust after power. They want to peddle influence and make money on the side, through unethical means.

Indians know that media is the most corrupt institution in their country next only to politics. The profession is infested with nepotists, opportunists and power-borkers. A newspaper quite openly sells NEWS space for advertising: ie, the reader has no way of knowing that what he is reading is as an advert! A TV editor and a newspaper editor cut a deal, whereby the newspaper editor gets a slot on the TV channel, and TV editor's wife gets a job with the newspaper. Stories are easily and routinely planted into papers and TV channels by political parties and business houses. Poliical journalists are used for propaganda by political parties, while business journalists are openly bribed.

Indian journalists have been caught demanding and accepting bribes, peddling lies and quite blatantly subverting truth. Many of the journalists and journals, including some big names, have been castigated by the Press Council -- a toothless media watchdog -- at various times, for their sharp and unethical practices. However, please note that there *are* good and honest journalists, just as there still are good and honest politicians. But as an instiution, Indian media today elicits just about as much respect as our politicians do.

Of course you find our journos 'honest', because you like what they say. A large section of the Indian media is a Hindu-baiter, and I think it is that aspect of our media that appeals to you. For some (the loony Left) Hindu-baiting is a matter of ideology, and for others (ie, Congress stooges) it is a matter of political expediency. It was said that during the Emergency, our Congress-loving media crawled when it was only asked to bend by Indira Gandhi. The joke doing the rounds at this moment is that Sonia Gandhi doesn't even have to ask our "doyens of journalism" to bend. They are already on their bellies.

If as a Pakistani, you desire a genuine dialogue with REAL Indians, I'd advise you not to be misled by our agenda-driven media.
Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Nov 16, 2004 12:00 AM
118

From Joseph the dimwitted Pakistani propogandist:

Lalit has said he does not wish to discuss with me becos I m an idiot, why ?

My stupidity is reflected in comparing my idli-eating or Gujarati's dhokla-eating habits with those of throat-slitting habits of my muslim fanatic brothers. And Sikhs and Hindus are absurd.

Yes, it is most fortunate that the medieval Islam and Muslims are very much a reality that cannot either be wished or driven away. It is like cockroaches or mosquitoes or rodents who just won't go away, use any pesticide.

Yes, Why should only Muslims change their way of life and throat-slitting habits and drop their "antisocial" animal behaviour?

Would you recommend that overseas Gujratis stop eating doklas or Mangaloreans, like myself, Idlis? And these are considered anti-social habits in Pakistan, you know!

PTV is the best, says Joseph- keep watching!

If one uses sarcasm, innuendo and other negative bases for denigrating a religion or its followers, then it is a wrong doing. So even if Muslims kill innocent people, don't say a word!

In the present world order, it is the Muslims that are wronged. Yes, and Muslims are righting these wrongs by killing innocent people.

If Muslims beat their wives and marry four times and live on social security- what is yr problem, Mr. Lalit Bagai in Kalundborg, Denmark.

The world belongs to Muslims and migration is an immutable right of Muslims that has occured since the dawn of recorded history.

I am not passing judgement on decent Europeans, but there are no decent Europeans today, only decent Muslims. I am just asking every one of us to accept reality of Dirty Muslims.

At no point have I ever suggested that Pakistan and Bangladesh are ahead of India. I KNOW they are. All I say is that India is just a poor country and would like you to believe that it is way lower than Pakistan and Bangla Desh.

Why the sarcasm about a pious and peaceful religion like Islam and its peace-loving followers? Try balancing your reading by reading Quran by getting out of the Bernard Lewis School of Thought.(see how smart I am- quoting Bernanrd whatever)

It is not me that has painted himself in a corner, it is you Hindus, Christians and Sikhs who refuse to see the reality of Islam and Muslims that will take over the whole world one day. Very soon. Killing yrself is the only option.

Finally, I hope I have raised the quality of debate from the absurd to the "sublime" by my interference and that Mr. Lalit Bagai will continue to grace these and other columns with his point of view.

Otherwise, I will send some friends of mine to do what they do best- slitting throats and shootong people and sticking notes into their chests with a knife.

JOSEPH

Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Nov 16, 2004 12:00 AM
117
There is a website called www.religioustolerance.org which is worthy of an occasional visit. This is what it has to say about the number of adherents of the top three religions. The words are theirs not mine. No one is willing to believe me. So it will be wiser for me to quote from Western and International sources. Kyunke, Pakistani Joseph jhoota hai. Dhanyabad, Al-Shukar, Thank you.

Hinduism has grown to become the world's third largest religion, after Christianity and Islam. It claims about 762 million followers - 13% of the world's population. It is the dominant religion in India, Nepal, and among the Tamils in Sri Lanka.

Estimates of the total number of Muslims range from 0.7 to 1.2 billion worldwide and 1.1 to 7 million in the U.S. 2 About 21% of all people on earth follow Islam. The religion is currently in a period of rapid growth.

Christianity is currently the largest religion in the world. It is followed by about 33% of all people -- a percentage that has remained stable for decades.

If current trends continue, Islam will become the most popular world religion sometime in the mid-21st century.

ARE WE DESTINED TO FIGHT THIS TREND OR TO LIVE IN HARMONY WITH IT? THE CHOICE IS OURS.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 16, 2004 12:00 AM
116
I was always led to believe that India's journals and journalists were honest. It seems that when you do not like what they say, they are peddling bilge. That is the problem. Most Indians talk with forked tongues.

Well the team at Outlook India, by Mr. Raghu Reddy's reasoning, is less smart than a smart Pakistani. Also, I may be a Pakistani since 1948 but I come from Mangalore in Karnataka. Intelligence knows no geographical boundaries, I would think.

As to one's religious beliefs, I am all for freedom of choice, and fully respect the Danish for their views on god and religion.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 16, 2004 12:00 AM
115
Joseph
----------

You point a finger at the modern Hindus for
being supersticious. Point taken.

However what about you and your own religious beliefs. That is pure supersticioun also. There is no scientific evidence for god, and the
miracles of Christ.

Modern christians in Denmark do not believe in god or astrology. Thats being honest and consistent.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Nov 16, 2004 12:00 AM
114
Abey George
___________

At last a really good idea on this subject.

I have some suggestions.

Adopt the methods used in South Africa , by
using a truth and reconciliation commission.
The victims should be offered the apologies of the entire nation, and should be recompensed, right away, without delay.

As Taha has suggested all victims of communal
riots should be included

Let the victims learn to forgive and forget.

I suggest that Abey be given the Outlooks peace award.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Nov 16, 2004 12:00 AM
113
Actually, Joseph, if you are prone to swallowing hook, line and sinker what Outlook peddles -- that bilge about astrology being the "fastest growing industry" for example -- so much for the intelligence of the *smarter* Pakis. :-)
Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Nov 16, 2004 12:00 AM
112
In passing, it says, elsewhere, on these pages that Astrology is India's fastest growing industry. So much for modernism, education, liberalism , etc. of the Indian diaspora and nation.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 16, 2004 12:00 AM
111
I am flummoxed. If it was a Congress Riot of Passage, then, it follows, that the Congress is not a secular party. Yet even today, the Congress is deemed to be secular. Whose Riot was it any way?
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 16, 2004 12:00 AM
110
It is unfortunate that Mr. Lalit Bagai has decided to withdraw from the debate about Muslims because, as he puts it, its level of absurdity. If I may be permitted to say so the absurdity lies in the Indian Hindu and Sikh (maybe) inability to see reality as it is. Islam and Muslims are very much a reality that cannot either be wished or driven away.

What we have seen in these columns is a wishful thinking that the US and Europe with their superior education, liberal views on life and better military wherewithal, will, somehow, give Muslims there comeuppance. I am afraid this will remain wishful thinking.

Why should only Muslims change their way of life and drop some of their "antisocial" behaviour? Would you recommend that overseas Gujratis stop eating doklas or Mangaloreans, like myself, Idlis? Are their no antisocial elements within other communities? What are the Neo-Nazis, the followers of Pen, etc.?

Then there is the belief that Europen writers, as those from the US, are honest, unbiased and reflect the truth. Far from it. As so many incidents have shown, Western media is as good or bad as those in other parts of the world. Fox News , anybody?

Who killed millions of Jews between the First and Second World Wars? Europeans! If one uses sarcasm, innuendo and other negative bases for denigrating a religion or its followers, then it is a wrong doing. There are no two things about it. In the present world order, it is the Muslims that are wronged. Should I count the places where this is happening?

Why does one have to call some one stranger on the basis of colour or creed? If that is so that Muslims are strangers in Europe or elsewhere where they are in a minority, then so are Hindus, Chinese, South Asians, etc., who are similarly placed including you, Mr. Lalit Bagai in Kalundborg, Denmark. The world belongs to everyone of us and migration is an immutable right that has occured since the dawn of recorded history. Using your terminology, the world has always been overrun by strangers. What about the Goths, the Visigoths, the Huns, the Moghuls, and the Irish and the Italians to the US. Even now, after a century of effort to eliminate it, the Italian Mafia is still extant. So are pornographic and prostitution rings. Let me assure you that most of these are run by non-Muslims.

I am not passing judgement on decent Europeans. I am just asking every one of us to accept reality.

I did not mention my South Asia data bank as a cause for cynicism. Any one who can click a "mouse" can have that facility.

At no point have I ever suggested that Pakistan and Bangladesh are ahead of India. All I say is that India is just marginally ahead and would like us to believe that it is way ahead.

Why the sarcasm about a religion and its followers? Try balancing your reading by getting out of the Bernard Lewis School of Thought.

It is not me that has painted himself in a corner, it is those that refuse to see the reality of Islam and Muslims that have.

Finally, I hope I have raised the quality of debate from the absurd to the "almost sublime". and that Mr. Lalit Bagai will continue to grace these and other columns with his point of view.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 16, 2004 12:00 AM
109
1984 was NOT a "Hindu riot of passage". It was a CONGRESS riot of passage. There's a prostituting of truth in that title, and it's par for the course to see Outlook engage in that kind of sleight of hand. By commenting extensively on this article, you guys have only helped that mischief stick around for a long time.

Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Nov 16, 2004 12:00 AM
108
Joseph
---------

Frankly I will now end my debate about muslims
in Europe. It has reached a level of absurdity that I did not imagine possible.

Your views are in line with those of most muslims. Whilst Europeans are the ones who have been killed so far-Beslan,Madrid,and now Van Gogh
in Holland you by a perverted logic present them as the wrong doers and the muslims as the wronged. Asking muslims to adapt to European way
of life , and to drop some of their antisocial
behaviour is nothing unreasonable. What exactly are the Europeans supposed to do. Should they
agree to their countries being overrun by strangers, and that they should accept customs and practices to which they are opposed.
Where is the justice in this.Is it reasonable.

Frankly I think that there is something wrong some where, though I do not know what this is.
Many decent Europeans are insecure about the new developments, and here you come passing judgements on them.

Finally I am aware that you have quite a bit of data on South Asia. We are all impressed.
If one was to believe you, then Pakistan and Bangladesh are way ahead of India and that Muslims will overtake the world. The penguins in the north will convert, and pray five times a day faceing Mecca.

Most people here like me get news from the international media all the time. We read and hear the views of the foremost thinkers, and
then have a good opportunity to make up our
minds.

In a way reading your views has been useful.
It shows that you have a way thinking which is opposed to that of most people I know,and also that you have painted yourself into a corner.
That is how matters stand for the muslim world.
It is isolated, angry and makes its descions not by thinking clearly, but through reliance on the Koran anno 7 th century.

Satyamaye Jayate
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Nov 16, 2004 12:00 AM
107
Abey,

Well written .. sounds like a plan...
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Nov 16, 2004 12:00 AM
106
While I am not the greatest fan of Kushwant Singh's writings, I greatly enjoyed reading this article. You have got to give it to him! Its a simple, and yet a very profound piece. There is a deep sense of anguish over the events of those tumultous years. Those indeed were some of the darker days in the history of our nation. He felt the pain. All sikhs felt it. Dare I say, all Indians felt it, one way or another.

Refreshingly, what captures the attention is not the ranting and raving of a wounded sikh, but the overwhelming optimism of a hopeful Indian for a brighter future. The world salutes the Jews for all they have endured through the holocaust, and I beleive it is very fitting that India salutes the sikhs for the pain they have endured. The fact that India has a sikh for a Prime Minister, and another sikh for the Planning Commission Chair, is perhaps the most fitting salute.

Hopefully, all Indians, sikhs included, will strive to move forward in forgiveness and hope, and not lose sight of the bright future, for the sake of licking old wounds and settling old scores. All our losses in life, are not guaranteed to be paid back; but all losses can be made worthwhile if we choose to forgive and move on. That is what the sikh community should do. That is what all Indians should do. God bless India!
Abey George
Washington DC, USA
Nov 16, 2004 12:00 AM
105
Lalit,

"governments now are doing
their best to avoid this happening. I am confident that Europeans will not fail.
"

I am pessimistic about the Europeans ... and if they integrate Turkey, the Europeans will be a minority much earlier than the turn of the century ...

St Peters church in the Vatican is a nice place ... by the turn of the century I think we shall hear the muezzins call from its domes.
Hey that reminds me ...When I was travelling from Florence to Milan with my family by train circa 1999... an interesting incident occurred. Since we had some spare space , I invited a priest & an African gentlemen who were standing outside to sit with us. The priest especially did not seem pleased . After some time ... the priest remarked to the African gentleman ... in Italian "Too many of them in France" .. the African gentleman replied ... "Too many of them in England, too." ... First I thought they might be referring to us Indians .. then it struck me that there are hardly any Indians in France ... and thats when it struck me ... the priest assumed that we were Muslims & that we didnt know Italian ... I then expalined to the priest in the lil Italian I could speak that we were Indians & not Muslims ... his tone automatically changed .. and the journey passed off well ..


Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Nov 16, 2004 12:00 AM
104
First I would like to give my background. I'm an American Sikh of non-Indian (European) origin.
I've read so many articles and spoken to so many people about the events of 1984, and I feel that Kushwant has written quite an insulting article. Specifically he has written:
"He(Bhidranwale) provided the Indian government the excuse to send the army into the temple complex."
One of the reasons Bhindranwale is considered a sant, and the reason I have respect for him is that he said he would die for his cause and he did. He went to the Akal Takht with just a few men, because he knew the attack was imminent and wanted to put up what ever defense he could offer. After all, there were thousands of innocents at the Hari Mandir Sahib that day, and the GOI sent in forces the size of a small country's army.
There is so much evidence and so many eye witness accounts describing a mock up of the Hari Mandir Sahib built in the hills of Jammu a year in advance of Bluestar, where the army practiced drills of invasion and destruction.
I don't agree with all of Bhindranwale's doings, but he did a lot of good and will be remembered primarily for that. You can't trick us with your words or a puppet prime minister. Some Sikhs know the truth and we know that the GOI has many times planned attacks at the heart of the Sikh identity. Even Kushwant's figures are false, at least 250,000, a quater MILLION Sikhs have been killed in and since 1984. I'm proud to be an American, even with our problems and our idiot president, we have never killed our own citizens on such a massive scale. And when a community is targetted or an injustice has occurred that community has come out strong and the people learn the truth. Most Indians have no clue of what really happened to the Sikhs and think the Sikhs are at fault and Kushwant is giving them more excuses to believe such falsities. I was only 4 years old when bluestar occured yet I had the conviction and clarity of mind that even at that age I would have given my life in defense of the Hari Mandir Sahib. A Sikh defends the weak of all communities. A Sikh tries their best to bring justice. A Sikh will never make excuses for the atrocities of others. A Sikh believes in truth. If necessary a Sikh will fight with every hair to their last breath.
It's easy to sit in your lofty apartment and write of the torture, rape and murders of lesser fortunate Sikhs. It's easy to pander to the Hindus and give excuses for their behaviors and falsify documented numbers of executions. The truth is 1984 was a Holocaust and if India were truly a democracy it would have punished the guilty and insured this kind of thing would never happen again. But it did happen again in Gujrat in 2002 and again the GOI is getting off scott free and the Hindu majority does not know of the plight of their fellow countrymen.
Prabhu Singh Khalsa
Española, United States
Nov 15, 2004 12:00 AM
103
For Mr. Lalit Bagai
How many Muslims can you kill, for God's sake? Or is some other more benign action envisaged?

Which liberal Europe are you talking about? The more liberal of the lot suffer from small numbers? The less liberal have larger numbers. The least liberal have the largest numbers.

Taken together, Europe is less humanitarian and liberal than is generally believed. So is the US.

What is the real tough action that you have in mind?

Yes, you are right but seem to suggest that come January 1, 2005, both Pakistan and Bangladesh will suffer. Somewhere, earlier, you had suggested that China will swamp them. So will India be, if that happens. Let me tell you that both countries have invested heavily in this sector to meet the challenges of the post-WTO era. I am sure, India will have done that too.

As to Bangladesh being awfully crowded and poor. Please be assured that the three Indian states of West Bengal, Orissa and Bihar taken together are more crowded and more poor than Bangladesh, and have two-third its per capita income.

Some time before September this year, India Today, a contemporary of Outlook India and its rival, did a complete analysis of the quality of life of all Indian states. The states that were better than Pakistan or Bangladesh, for that matter, were the smaller states such as Delhi and Goa, and, among the larger states, the Punjab.

Indians, abroad and in India, need to take a closer look at their own inequalities before passing sweeping judgements about their neighbours.

Kolkata is a less well-appointed city than Dhaka at present, although in the early 20th.Century when Dhaka was a backwater town of 100,000 people, Kolkata was renowned as the Queen of the East.

Contributors to this column may wonder where I produce all this information from. Well it is from a large data bank created to support my efforts as Specialist Writer on South Asia.

By the way, children work for lees than 20 cents per day in India too. Let us not talk about such things.

Did Mr.Jensen and Mr.Drylund get in touch with you? I would be happy if they did. It will clear a lot of cobwebs if we get to meet.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 15, 2004 12:00 AM
102
Joseph
-------

Yes there are a couple of guys who are talking of Europe turning muslim by the end of the century. This is because they are counting on a much higher birth rate Some Europeans are scared
of this prospect, and governments now are doing
their best to avoid this happening. I am confident that Europeans will not fail.
They are way ahead of the muslim world in
every possible way. Only liberal and humanitarian
traditions are inhibiting them from taking really
tough actions against them right now.

By the way are not Pakistan and Bangladesh
very much dependent on textile and garment quotas. ??

I saw a programme about Bangladesh yesterday on TV. Awfully crowded and poor. Children working for 10 to 20 US cents per day.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Nov 15, 2004 12:00 AM
101

Joseph the faithful defender of Islam,

(Is it to save your own ass!)

People like Joseph say that it is a common misconception, especially after the tragic events of September 11th, that the attitude of hatred and violence towards non-Muslims is embedded in Islamic sources.” Joseph, in contrast, you “contend that the Prophet Mohammed did not preach violence against people of other faiths.”


In light of the fact that many Muslims seem to hold this misconception, I would be interested to hear your explanation of many passages of the Qur’an and Hadith.

For space reasons I will ask about only one here.

In a well-attested hadith, Muhammad says: “When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. . . . Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. . . . If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya [the special tax on non-Muslims]. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them” Sahih Muslim, book 19, no. 4294).


So Joseph teh faithful dog of Islam, what would you say to a Muslim who invoked this passage and others in support of the idea that Muhammad did, in fact, “preach violence against people of other faiths”?

You can answer that with your tail between yr legs, no problemo!
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Nov 15, 2004 12:00 AM
100
I am aware that two wrongs do not make a right.

However, churches have been burnt in India too, priests attacked, nuns attacked and raped, and of course, an Australian Missionary and his two sons were burnt.

About Muslims becoming victims of the "Survival of the Fittest Hypothesis", I do not know. What if, on the basis of their strong religious convictions and unity of purpose, turn out to be the fittest after all?

Some statisticians are not unaware of the possibility by the turn of this century, Mr. Lalit Bagai.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 15, 2004 12:00 AM
99
Don't Blame HINDU for Riot in 1984 Mr. Singh, It was SLAVE of NEHRU GANDHI family who do this. Secondly after reading your article what feel me that you are more interested to blame HINDU then the RAJIV GANDHI & his GANG of GOON. I think you now forgive CONGRESS & GANDHI family because they give an SIKH puppet Prime Minister but I want a ask a question to you Mr. Singh that just for an Prime Minister post can those SIKH family who loose there life and property can get JUSTICE?
rajat
Kolkata, India
Nov 15, 2004 12:00 AM
98

Joseph the Christian in Pakistan,

Here is something to warn you:

After a shooting at a church in Pakistan, police detained another Muslim cleric, Mohammed Afzal, who is alleged to have told his people that "it is the duty of every good Muslim to kill Christians . . . You should attack Christians and not even have food until you have seen their dead bodies."

Presumably Afzal would not consider Christians "innocent civilians." Osama and other Muslim extremists have maintained that the people killed in the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were not innocent, but complicit in what they imagine to be the American government’s worldwide oppression of Muslims. Consequently, they argue that they were fitting victims of jihad — even envisioned only as a struggle against "tyranny or oppression."

Still advocating Pakistan and Islam?
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Nov 15, 2004 12:00 AM
97
Lalit,

'Europe Will Be Islamic by the End of the Century'
by Robert Spencer

Racism Engulfs Europe!

How quickly is Europe being Islamized? So quickly that even historian Bernard Lewis, who has continued throughout his honor-laden career to be strangely disingenuous about certain realities of Islamic radicalism and terrorism, told the German newspaper Die Welt forthrightly that "Europe will be Islamic by the end of the century."

Or maybe sooner. Consider some indicators from Scandinavia this past week:

Sweden's third-largest city, Malmø, according to the Swedish Aftonbladet, has become an outpost of the Middle East in Scandinavia: "The police now publicly admit what many Scandinavians have known for a long time: They no longer control the situation in the nations's third largest city. It is effectively ruled by violent gangs of Muslim immigrants. Some of the Muslims have lived in the area of Rosengård, Malmø, for twenty years, and still don't know how to read or write Swedish. Ambulance personnel are attacked by stones or weapons, and refuse to help anybody in the area without police escort. The immigrants also spit at them when they come to help. Recently, an Albanian youth was stabbed by an Arab, and was left bleeding to death on the ground while the ambulance waited for the police to arrive. The police themselves hesitate to enter parts of their own city unless they have several patrols, and need to have guards to watch their cars, otherwise they will be vandalized."

The Nordgårdsskolen in Aarhus, Denmark, has become the first Dane-free Danish school. The students now come entirely from Denmark's fastest-growing constituency: Muslim immigrants.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Nov 15, 2004 12:00 AM
96
Lalit,

Are you observing what is happening in Europe- this is the start of the end, either the liberal Europe is dying or the islamisation of Eurabia is beginning.

Listen to what Hirsi Ali of Netherland says:

Islamic terrorism, both in the Netherlands and abroad, is able to thrive because it is embedded in a wider circle of fellow Muslims. I'm angry that this fact is never fully understood by the people responsible for our security."

Hirsi Ali is one great woman

Can anyone in India say that at the cost of being politicallt correct.

Difficult times ahead my friend!
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Nov 15, 2004 12:00 AM
95
Joseph of Pakistan,

I just read the news abt the killing of a Christian Priest, Joseph, in Pakistan.

Is that you?

Read on:

INTRO: A MOB OF EXTREMIST MUSLIMS HAS CLASHED WITH CHRISTIAN MOURNERS
AND POLICE IN PAKISTAN, AS FUNERAL SERVICES WERE HELD FOR A CATHOLIC
BISHOP WHO KILLED HIMSELF WEDNESDAY. BISHOP JOHN JOSEPH SHOT HIMSELF TO
PROTEST PAKISTAN'S BLASPHEMY LAWS. ALI ZAIDI REPORTS FROM ISLAMABAD --
THE EXTREMIST MOB CHANTED SLOGANS IN SUPPORT OF THE LAW, WHICH CRITICS
SAY IS USED TO PERSECUTE MINORITY GROUPS.

TEXT: REPORTS SAY A MOB OF MUSLIM EXTREMISTS ATTACKED CHRISTIANS IN THE
PAKISTANI CITY OF FAISALABAD, WHERE THOUSANDS HAD GATHERED SUNDAY FOR
THE FUNERAL OF BISHOP JOHN JOSEPH.

THE CATHOLIC BISHOP WAS BURIED IN THE GROUNDS OF HIS CHURCH. ANGRY
MOURNERS CHANTED ANTI-GOVERNMENT SLOGANS AND CALLED FOR THE REPEAL OF
PAKISTAN'S BLASPHEMY LAW. A HEAVY DEPLOYMENT OF RIOT POLICE SURROUNDED
THE AREA TO PREVENT VIOLENCE BETWEEN THE CHRISTIANS AND A MOB OF
EXTREMIST MUSLIMS WHO HAD GATHERED AT A NEARBY MARKET TO PROTEST THE
CHRISTIAN DEMANDS.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Nov 15, 2004 12:00 AM
94


Arre o Pakistani Josephiya ,

Toone bataya nahin.

When the war between Christians and Muslims takes place in Pakistan- as it is happening in the rest of the world and places like Holland- whose side will you be?

Muslims or Christians?

Then those jehadi musaltes will not take into account yr stout defence of Islam and Pakistan in this forum.

They will simply cut yr head of with a butcher's knife- like they did to Theo Van Gogh in Holland- even if you offer yr non-existent balls to them.

Just think- it is not such a distant and imaginary possibility.

Run baby run! For yr life.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Nov 15, 2004 12:00 AM
93

Some of the inescapable truths emerging out of Khushwant Singh’s tirade are:

· Khush is selective in perception when he blames Hindus only for the Sikh massacre when he totally forgets to acknowledge the killing of thousands of innocent Hindus by Sikh terrorists. What about justice to them? Any killer of these Hindus brought to justice? Killer of innocent Kanishka Hindus given any justice?

· Yes, there is one law for Hindus and other for minorities- and minorities get the advantage becos they are pampered minorities.

· It is convenient for Cong boot-licker, Super-Chamcha and super-opportunist like Khush to blame Hindus and not Cong and its goons, but we know the truth, don’t we?

· After the massacre of Sikhs, what did his Sikh brothers like Zail Singh and even now MMSingh did? Who stops them from starting the exercise to bring the guilty to justice now?

· Khush has no words for the treachery and dis-loyalty of the Sikh guards who killed their own maalik- Indira. Who will trust Sikhs after this in their household?

· Khush does not offer any alternative to the blunder that is Operation Blue Star and says Bhindarwale provided an excuse to enter the Golden Temple. And why kill Vaidya who was just following orders?

· Khush proves that like Muslims, some Indians are Muslims or Sikhs first and Indian much later. Sad indeed!

· Hindus do not hv to prove their loyalties because they are Indians first, second and last- unlike Sikhs like Khush or Muslims. Muslims and Sikhs have to prove that they are not supporter of people like Bhindarwale or Dawood/Osama.

· And prey, what is a fair deal to Sikhs- PMship to MMS? What stupidity!

Khush is an unabashed purveyor of fiction and pornography and this version of his is written in alcoholic stupor for gaining cheap brownie points with the present Cong govt.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Nov 15, 2004 12:00 AM
92
Joseph
---------

Why cant we live togather peacefully ,is a silly
meaningless phrase. Facts speak for themselves.
The history of mankind is replete with conflicts
between nations or communities because of differences in interests. The conflict between
the western , non muslim nations and Islam is
because the growth of a violent form of Islam,
threatens the interests of the former.

Berlingske Tidende , a Danish paper published
in Copenhagen, has a 3 page account of the developing conflict between christians and muslims in Europe. A American professor close to
President Bush admonishes Europe for wrongfully believeing that by tolerance and servility they will be able to avoid muslim terrorism. In Denmark most of us will fight back for our values, come hell or high water.

In the end it may not come to extremes, but this depends on the muslim communities. Apart from what is right or wrong the muslim immigrants are
completely dependent on the generousity of western countries. Unless they learn to adapt,
stop playing their devious politics of denials and evasions, they face a bitter future .

I believe in Darwins theory of survival of the fittest. If this theory applies to the present
conflict also, you should be worried about your
muslim friends.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Nov 14, 2004 12:00 AM
91
The inability to agree to live together in this wide world of ours has resulted in a two-nation theory of 1947 evolving into a multi-nation hypothesis of 2004.

Writers beware. NEFA is Christian-majority. Is the balkanization of India to be followed by a similar arrangement for the rest of the non-Muslim World. If that is so, I am afraid the solution is worse than the problem.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 14, 2004 12:00 AM
90
Hi,
This is the Age of Khatris and this Lala Khushwant Singh with no surname is no exception to the contribution of riots through spreading KOORR as Lala Tara Singh Malhotra did during the 1947 Punjab partition.

Read my article on the activities of these satanic Khatris who used to be DEVTAS in Traeta.
Ch. R. Nijjhar
Reading, United Kingdom
Nov 14, 2004 12:00 AM
89
Readable!!!
basil
ernakulam, india
Nov 14, 2004 12:00 AM
88
More on Multi Nation Theory:

A tamilian and a Bengali now belong to separate nation. But a Bengali Muslim and a Tamil Muslim belong to same nation. Look at the way, Tamil Muslims has chosen Urdu as their Language instead of Tamil, a classical language. Bengali Muslims are now learning Urdu, using more harsher Wahabbi methods to settle their disputes.

Who loses? Its the Tamil and Bengali Hindu both. Ultimately, both will be over run these arabian culture. They will loose Bengali/Tamil for which they are fighting for.
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Nov 14, 2004 12:00 AM
87
First Muslim League proposes 2 Nation Theory. Communists accepts that with lot of theory and terminology. In 1947, India is divided. Suddenly Marxists take an curious turn, because their rationale of existance has ceased. Jyo Basu, Harkishen S. Surjeet become refugees and forced to stay in India.

Its now Multi-Nation Theory in India. A Tamilian, Assamese,Kashmiri, Bengali Hindu are now part of separate natiohood ! So when Tamils are kicked in Sri Lanka, a bengali/kashmiri don't care. When a Bengali is kicked in bangladesh/becomes under pressure from Bangladeshi Migration nobody else cares. When Kashmiris are kicked out nobody cares.

Its the old story of Breaking unity of 5 brothers. You destroy them if they are divided. You get destroyed, if they are united. Choice is ours.
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Nov 14, 2004 12:00 AM
86
"Protection of Dharma is our Dharma. Khalsa Panth was born for that purpose. Never have I left Hinduism. Guru Govind Singh has produced a lot of Gurumukhi literature based on Vedas, Puranas and the like. Are we to leave all that? In fact Hindus and Sikhs are not two separate communities. Name is Sikh and beard... Mona (non beard) Sikh and Sevak... That is all... Sikhs live if Hinduism exists. If Sikhs live Hinduism lives. They are not two separate communities. They are one indeed. Lack of mutual confidence has been a small problem. This situation must be put to an end. I want to see that. A Hindu revival movement is very necessary and it will certainly come up. If Sri Guruji Golwalkar takes it up it could be easily built up." said the great Sikh leader Master Tara Singh, taking part in the deliberations at Pawai meeting in 1964, when the decision to start Vishva Hindu Parishad was taken.
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Nov 14, 2004 12:00 AM
85
The anti-sikh riots were really a black mark on the indian democracy.Further it is true that there is one rule for the Hindus and the other for the minorities.
moin
Kolkata, India
Nov 14, 2004 12:00 AM
84

Dear Seethi Haji of Mallapuram,

It is sad to note that you are giving attention to an old, debauch, opportunist, sikh whose only claim to fame is his chamchagiri to anyone in power- be it Sanjay Gandhi, Indira, Rajeev and now his pathetic attempt to get brownie points from Sonia and Rahul, by attacking Hindus.

His other claim to fame is to write pornography which sells like hot cake in the name of freedom of expression.

He, and all sikhs, know that it is Congress goons like Sajjan Singh, Tytler, HKL Bhagat and many more who incited the mobs to kill innocent sikhs. But then, Gujarat is the ONLY riot that ever took place in the history of India and so, Sikhs killed in 1984 riots are conveniently forgotten, not only by dirty-mind Khush but also Mask Mohan Singh and his tribe, for obvious reasons.

Please act sane and stop writing such stupid letters worthy of trash.

A small request to the Outlook readers like you:
Sir, it IS the policy of Outlook magazine to publish such inflammatory articles in their worthy magazine. It may generate lot of sensation and will sell a lot more copies. But then to do a big injustice to the humanity and the country is acceptable editorial and ownership ethos.

SEETHI HAJI, are you a Muslim because your parents converted to Islam in the famous Mallapuram riots where many Hindus were killed and many Hindus converted to Islam, the
religion of peace.

Just asking!

Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Nov 14, 2004 12:00 AM
83
Yes, but what about a fair deal to victims of the 92-93 riots and the Gujarat riots and also the Kashmiri Pandits? Sikhs are not the only victims of violence.
Taha
Buffalo, USA
Nov 14, 2004 12:00 AM
82
Seethi,
Looks like u just discovered outlook
"worthy" magazine.HA HA HA HA HA HA HO HO HO HO HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.

Thanks for the laugh

i HAVE FALLen off my chair .The laughter is unbearable.Worthy for sure worth millions of swissbank francs billed to congress which shares it's 55 yr loot with outlook.
j asgutd
madison, usa
Nov 14, 2004 12:00 AM
81
rustam,
your pious comment reeks of hypocrisy charactersitic of your so called self proclaimed progressive type.If u were truly progressive,you would have noticed that Hindus are way ahead o f muslims in the cocept of nationhood.Muslims got pakistan and even in europe ,chechnya,phikllipines,china,thailand etc they are seccessionist not counting kashmir.

You have the nerve to so eaily mention them muslims in the same breath as hindus.Not only are u hypocritical but also perceptually blind.Because
in the uk where you live muslims have an us vs them attitude and have rioted in bradford against whiltes.Ditto in holland,france etc.You do grave injustice to hindus beacuse your parsi ancestors
fled islam for hindu haven in india.Your so politically correct but factually incorrect comment will make them squirm in the grave or wherever
j asgutd
madison, usa
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
80
Dear Singh,
It is sad to note that you are labelling the people who massacred Sikhs in 1984 as Hindu goons? They were none other than the 'Secular' Congress partymen whom you have supported so far. Please do not label any community as murderers as they will only make a bad precedent for the other communal demogogues. It was not Muslims who burnt the train passengers at Godra, It was not Hindus who burnt Graham Stein in Orissa, but a bunch of zealots bent on wreckng the secular fabric of this country. Please act sane and stop writing such articles worthy of trash.

A small request to the Outlook editor: Sir, Please do not publish such inflammatory articles in your worthy magazine. It may generate lot of sensation and you may sell a few more copies. But then you will only be doing a big injustice to the humanity.
Seethi Haji
Malappuram, India
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
79
Joseph
-------

At times one has to make up ones mind,

Since you live in Pakistan and have friends there,you will be prone to be muslim friendly.
You will do everything to promote the image
of peaceful Islam , tolerant Islam, and ignore
whats happening in our world.Happens all the time.

Many people in Europe, including leading politicians have views opposite to your. They
have the resposibility to protect their people.
Under these circumstances dont you think that
you should listen to their views, instead of dismissing them with a superior smile.

So far I have not found you to be the fountainhead of wisdom, and without malice find you to be stubborn and highly opiniated.



lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
78
Ekkadmi
------------

Dont get carried away with dark thoughts.

Anyway if one was to believe in Darwins theory,ie survival of the fittest., species unable to adapt will die out.

Muslims face this situation. They are unable to
adapt. They are the ones who should be scared.

Incidentally the lions are doing well in Africa.
Animal planet on TV reported that the wild dogs are going down in numbers.

So have a beer, relax, and stop worrying.
By the way which is the best Hindi movie of this year.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
77
The only difference between the posting here and elsewhere in these pages is the quality and tone of the language. The thinking and the exposition is the same. Muslims need to be eliminated to make the world a safer and better place.

Are you sure about that?
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
76

THE WILD DOGS AND THE LION

Have you seen the documentary on Wild Dogs on National Geographic?

Notice those dirty, smelling, ugly looking dogs, unlike the ones we come across daily.

They spot their pray and then they are on the job. With single-minded devotion.

The prey might even be a lion, but they are not deterred.

They follow him, surround him and are waiting. And waiting. And waiting.

They know the fierce power of the lion but they are not afraid. They are focused.

The lion gnarls, he paws at one of them dogs and he even kills some of them with his massive strength, but they are clearly on their mission. They are so many.

Soon, the lion starts to feel tired. And the dogs feel encouraged. They chase him.

They peck at him. They test his strength. They test his patience. They know their own.

And they are many. They have no principal, no qualms, no rules to play with.

The lion has all of these rules to follow. Because, he is strong, he is fierce and he is the king of the jungle.
But then, he has his limitations. Imposed by the jungle.

The wild dogs do not have any.

Very soon, they start succeeding in their mission.

They pay some sacrifices for the larger cause, but they prevail. They are willing to die for their cause. They are equally willing to kill.

Soon, they over-power the lion and kill him.

These Islamic wild dogs will surely kill humanity, the lion. One day. Soon.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
75

Lalit,

Dear Friend.

Anyone listening to yr reasonable comments?

Not them Muslims.

They are waiting n watching n gathering strength to attack again- in India, in Holland, in Iraq, In America.

They are suicidal and are willing to die in the name of Allah, the merciful.

And they are killers and willing to kill, in the name of Allah, the bountiful.

And they know that this war is going to be long and ardous and they are waiting. Like a pack of wild dogs.

No discussion, no dialogue, no wavering, no changing the supreme edict of Allah, the great benefector.

All kafirs be damned.

Allh is supreme.

His shall prevail.

Death to kafirs.

This world is to be converted to Dar-ul-Islam.

Time to be scared, Lalit.

My friend.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
74
In full agreement with Lalit's latest comment. Sunni moslems outside arabia should be given citizenship of the state only if they denounce ummaism. Otherwise, they can be only guest workers ithout citizenship/voting rights.

Reading the comments and understanding the debate becomes difficult, because of the reverse order of insertions. Perhaps the web editor can do something about it.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
73
DS/Tanmoy/Ekaadmi
--------------------

I think we agree on several points.

No use arguing with muslims. Islam means submission to Allah, through thick or thin.
The fundamentalist muslim when insulted will attack with animal rage, willing to die for Allah,The so called moderate muslim will feel
insulted and go of in a dudgeon, to be consoled by his secular friends, if has any.

However angry people can never win victories.
The fight to contain Islam must be a carefully thought out strategy, and this should be based on the work done in some US based think tanks.

The strategy must use the stick and the carrot,
and throw aboard all inhibitions which have so far only served to increase the number of muslims
in various societies, and their fundamentalist
mindset.

In Europe it would mean zero muslim immigration.
Reduced welfare allowances to muslim families
having more then 2 kids. Forced expatriation
of muslims to their original home lands in certain cases. A closing down of mosques and muslim schools. Some of these will be implemented
soon in Holland.

It is important to preserve certain areas so
that they do not lose their original ethnic character. I do not fancy the charming Danish town where I have lived for so many years to be turned into a muslim ghetto. All of us would prefer the pealing of church bells to the call to
the faithful. We prefer that men and women can meet togather, play bridge, golf or eat in night clubs(very seldom now)

I think it is completely kosher to demand that majority communities not be ruined by people
whom we frankly dislike. If some muslims want
to join the majority community, they should prove
their loyalty by behaving as civilised, and rational human beings. They have failed to do so,
so far, takeing refuge in denials and evasions.


In TV debate the Danish minister of integration(every European country has now one) Bertil Harder said that when arguing with muslim imams
he felt it was like handling a piece of wet soap.
Subterfuge, denial, evasions was the rule.

Does any nonmuslim society want such unreliable characters with dangerous tendencies, to be part of their societies.

The place to watch is Holland in Europe, which
will point to the direction of new uropean policy. When things get really hot, and push come to shove, muslims will have to decide.
Are they muslims first and left, or they are willing to abandon their medieval faith and live as good citizens.The choice is theirs.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
72

Anima: Religion, by defn is hril-lajjaa, heartfelt modesty of the individual
recognizing the Absolute, a social dimension also coming in as large groups recognize the same absolute in some common form. But the hindu does not recognize an ex-communicating priest or a fatwa-issuing mullah, but only a puro-hita[ = placed in front] scholar on occasions requiring some rituals. But Hinduism is basically spiritualty and should not be allowed to become some form of ritualism., such as was opposed by Buddha. Priest-based religions are flaring up, but do not worry, it is their final flare before extinction. Hindu spiritualism cannot be destroyed, just as atomic physics cannot be destroyed.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
71
Note to OUTLOOK on 12Nov2k4:
Anima Sarkar should know that India’s eternal philosophy in not just 5k yrs old but as old as mankind, mainly because it is not based on time-bound prophets or their doctrines or priests or mullas. It is the science of the spirit and matter, called aatma-viyaa/bramha-vidyaa and sanaatana [ santam aatanoti = embodies the truth as it exists]. The science behind Indian philosophy can be seen in that, only after Hanuman and Jambhavan certify that the Rama they knew had come again as Krishna, Vyasa writes the Bhagavata-purana authoritatively describing the many avataras of Vishnu as the bhoota-bhavya- bhavat-prabhu.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
70
The only way to save Indian Civilization is to change it from private religion to a community religion, like islam or Christanity. I fully agree with Tanmoy Ghosh on this. I think, Sumit Sarkar (Marxist Historian) even mentioned this aspect of Hinduism, that its private religion. Unless we Islamize ourselves, we will NOT be able to save this 5000 year old civilization.

Sumit Sarkar wrote this in his book "Writing of Social History":

"The central High Hindu ideal was the individual breaking out of the Bondage of Karma (endless rebirth, in which merits and sins accumulated in previous lives rigidly determined one's status in life, and therefore one's dharma, in the sense of appropriate rituals and duties). Unlike Christanity or Islam, with their notions of a day of Judgement COMMON TO ALL, the idea of salvation here was NOT community-based, and so the conception of universal causality implicit, in a way, in the doctrine of karma, applied ONLY to individuals".

Just do it folks..Else perish.
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
69
EKAAMAADMI, Rustam, Lalit,

1. Muslims quote Noam Chomsky, tallest Intellectual today, to blame US. Excellent, we all agree. But ask Muslims whether they support Chomsky's view of Society, Nation State, Separation of Church/Stage, Human Rights, Womens right, Intra Society Tolerance, Inter society Tolerance. No Way.

2. American Muslims supported John Kerry against Bush. Do they support Kerry's view on society, human rights, women rights, freedom. No Way.

3. Does Indian Muslims support Secularism? No way.

4. Do they support Nehru/Gandhi or even CPM's policies (whatever fault it is). No way.

These Left fundamentalists are discovering that slowly but surely. It needs common sense.
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
68

What is happening in Holland is typical of mentality and game-paln of Muslims anywhere in the world.

When they are in minority, they talk of human rights and misuse the traditions of the country they live in.

They talk of freedom of religion and freedom of expression.

When somebody like Van Gogh uses the freedom of expression and points out the religious fundamentalism of Islam and Muslims- they resort to violence and kill him.

When there is natural back-lash (just like Godhra), Muslims run like scared rabbits and seek liberal concessions and message of peaceful religion that is Islam.

When host nation put restrictions on Muslims, like what Holland is going to do soon, these Muslims, with the help of secularists and liberal intellectuals raise issues of religious freedom and the need for peace.

If that works, they go back to their religious extremism and medieval lifestyle.

If that fails, they ask for a separate nation/ State/ whatever.

It is so simple, stupid!

This is happening everywhere by design- India is no exception.

The clash of civilization is happening- here and now!
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
67
Dutch liberalism stares into a troubled future as anti-Muslim backlash grows

Dozens of arson attacks after Van Gogh's murder

The Netherlands is grappling with its worst epidemic of ethnic and religious violence and is struggling to come to terms with what it means for a country that prides itself on liberalism, openness and tolerance. "These fires and attacks are revenge for the murder of Van Gogh, Ordinary people are looking for revenge, educated people are saying that's not the way we do things here. We prefer to make deals. But times are changing. It's a kind of war."

From marijuana cafes to euthanasia, prostitution to immigration, the Netherlands has long been Europe's pioneer liberal, secure in a political culture that shuns confrontation and prizes consensus. But political violence first shook the system two years ago when the maverick populist politician Pim Fortuyn was assassinated. The murder of Van Gogh, who revered Fortuyn, shared his contempt for over-generous Dutch hospitality, and specialised in verbal hooliganism against Muslims, has come as an even bigger jolt and triggered a national bout of agonising centred on the question: "What's wrong with this country?"

The centre-right government which came to power following the Fortuyn killing thinks that the fabled fairmindedness of the Dutch has become part of the problem, that tolerance is no response to fatwas and fanaticism, that something must be done.

Over the past 10 days there have been some two dozen arson attacks on mosques, churches and schools - a scale of violence unheard-of here - as well as government and intelligence revelations about the menace of alleged Islamist terrorism in the heart of the Netherlands.

In the biggest security operations seen here in decades, 13 suspects have been arrested - mostly Arabs but including two teenage brothers of mixed Dutch-American parentage who converted to Islam - in connection with the Van Gogh murder and other alleged terrorist plotting.

Dozens of the country's 500 mosques may be closed down. It was proposed that only Dutch-trained imams be licensed to run mosques. The security and intelligence services are to be expanded. Police powers of search and arrest are to be expanded. Websites and broadcasters inciting hatred could be censored.

The influential former EU commissioner Frits Bolkestein is repeatedly warning of the impact of Muslim immigration. Compulsory "integration" of Muslims is becoming the government's watchword.

The Muslim population, mainly from Morocco and Turkey, is almost 1 million, or 6%, commonly double that in the big cities. If nothing is done, according to Mr Bolkestein, cities such as Amsterdam, Rotterdam and Utrecht will have "non-European" majorities within a couple of generations. "The most common first name registered at birth these days in Amsterdam is Mohammed," he recently told the International Herald Tribune. "This, they say, is the Europe-to-be."

To his admirers, Van Gogh is a martyr to freedom of speech. To his many detractors, Van Gogh was a loudmouthed racist hungry for attention and himself a victim of the hatred he helped to foment.

In the school in Uden, the arsonists also spray painted "Theo RIP" alongside their White Power taunts. "We're not going to accept this. Things will get worse," said Suleiman Sinan, a Turkish teacher at the school.

"It's not just one incident," said Mr Taspina. "This has been developing for years and now it is escalating. It's very deep."

Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
66

Rustom Roy, the great thinker,

You say:

"People need to start to think of themselves as "Indians" first and then Hindu, Muslim or whatever else."

Great!!

Why don't you ask your Muslim brothres to acknowledge this fact.

Impossible.

Because Muslims say openly, that they are not Indian, Pakistani, British or American first.

They are Muslim first, second and last.

Try to find that out whereevr you live and let us know.

By the way, are you a Muslim?

If yes, are you a Britisher or whatever first and Muslim later.

Answer honestly.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
65
I feel sorry for the poor sikhs, but not for this motheaten excuse of a jounalist.

When ever we feel we have seen the last of him
he reappears, courtesy his old connections.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
64
Well said Tanmoy,

The USA does not try & hide German or Japanese aggression during WW2 ... in fact there are channels that show events from these Wars every day ... but why have the Germans, Japs & Americans been able to move on ??? Thats because Japanese aggression or German aggression has ended in 1947 ... All is forgotten ... almost all wounds have been closed ...

In the case of India, "Secular" historians can sugar coat history all they like but it Hindus can never forget ... and why can't Hindus forget becuase those ancient crimes against Hindus are STILL being committed .. there can be no closure because .. the persecution of Hindus in India which started in 850 AD hasnt ended and will only end when the last Hindu has been eliminated ... and fresh wounds are opened practically every year ...

And look at the flip side ...the "Secularist" media will harp over alleged minorty persecution over & over & over again while maintaining a defeaning stance on persecution of Hindus ...

Moderates in the minority community must expose these double standards & talk about it as well ... The "Secularists" are digging a grave ... and as you guys know ... Hindus are not buried.
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
63
Shariq Ahmad wrote: "India's glorious secular past...".

Sure, Shariq Bhai..But that Secularism was and still is ONLY for Hindus. Did/Do you support aspects of Secularism in education, equal rights, population policy which is a burning issue in India? Stop raising Bogey of secularism, when you don't believe in that.

Example 1: In West Bengal (WB), we have a Govt funded Mardarassa Education supervised by a Madrassa Board. There are 10 Members, all happen to be Muslims. Very Good, no problem with that. Now, look at where those 10 members send their Children for education? To St. Xaviers, Secular Schools where you/me went.

Why Man? Why would you send your Child to a English medium School, and drain precious money of the Govt on Madrassa

Example: 2: OK. So, we have a great Madrassa Education system in WB. The Govt is funding it increasingly for last 30 years. When we look at the result, we see 25% of State Population (Muslims) has less than 4% Govt Job. Even lower in New Economy. Remember, Jyoti Basu was CM for 25 years. A Learned, educationist like Nurul Hasan was Governor for 2 terms.

Example 3: So, what does the Govt do to check in imbalance of poor representation of Muslims in Jobs? They plan reservation for Muslims.

Man..now you know, why it sucks so much.
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
62
Lalit/Rustam

Cortez is treated as a Invader in Mexico. But Bin-Kasim (First Arab invader of Sind) is treated as a Hero, bearer of true Faith of Islam, by Pakistani, Indian Muslims. How will ever people reconcile to the fact that these local people (including Muslims forefathers) saw unprecedented death, destruction of their civilization..temples, cultural icons, cities, schools. They were looted, Their women were raped, sold in Arabia's Slave Market at extremely low price (because there were so many)..These are not imagination. But facts written over and over and over by invaders themselves.
Nobody is blaming present Indian Muslims for these crimes against humanity. However, we need a sympathy, and not arrogance. Which 'secularism' will solve this problem? Where People has just opposite view at the crisis hours of their Civilization.

So, here comes Marxist historians. Who will sugar-coat the whole affair. When a Huge City like Vijaynagara was detructed, and looted for 9 months, we will be told to look into facts that Vijaynagara Kings wore Turkish Turban ! Why can't we accept facts: yes, there were destruction, of huge proportion. People were looted systemetic impoverishments by Muslims Kings. Why can't they show us destruction of equal magnitude in India in Pre-Muslim period?

We are told that our temples were destructed, looted because there were too much of wealth accumulated there..Why didn't anybody looted/destructed Somnatha Temple, or temples of Mathura in pre-Islamic period?

Do you have any answer?
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
61
Lalit..US Space Agency NASA's latest, most ambitious Project is SCRAMJET where they named the drone as Pegasys. Why would Christians name their prime Scientific Project after a Pre-Christian Mythical Creature from Greece. Pegasys was related with one of Greek Pre-Christian God !

Look at All non-Arab Muslim nations prime projects. In every place, they have destroyed all pre-islamic civilizational Traces. In Iran, some years back, one enterpreneour wanted to build a resort on a Island with "Winged Bull" (A prominent pre-Islamic eblem), he was politely told not to do so. Else it will be broken down. Those who have visited Tehran..how many places you have seen pre-islamic Emblems like Winged Bulls?

We shout saying Urdu is an Indian laguage with more than 50% Sanskrit Word, there are big movement in Pakistan today to replace words of Sanskritic origin and give it total Arabic one !
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
60
WHo gave the author the idea that the mobs who killed sikhs were hindus?They were congressmen.They included muslims and christians too.Punish those criminals legally.Now that a secular government headed by a sikh himself is at power,what stops sikhs from getting justice?
This is again another propoganda to badmouth hindus by blaming them for crime done by congressmen.Goebells would have been proud of this campaign
sampathkumar
chennai, India
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
59
Lalit.."The world will change for the better when muslims drop their attitudes which are widely disliked.".

It will never happen. That would be the end of Islam, the Arab Nationalism.

Have you ever thought why Hernan Cortez, Spanish general who destroyed mighty Aztek Empire, is treated as a Invader in Mexico? Mexican are all Christians, and shouldn't they treat Cortez as bearer of true faith of Christanity? Mexico's biggest Stadium is named as Aztek Empire. Mexico's flag has Aztek Symbol like Eagle & Serpent. Compare that with non-Arab Muslim Countries like Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan or many countries of Central Asia.

Why Rabindranath Tagore, a Hindu by religion, wrote best of his poems, dance Dramas on Buddha? Why not a Single poet has written a Single line on Buddha from these vast land (Pak to Afghanistan-Cetral Asia), which was Prime Buddhist Culture ! Is it incidental? Nope.
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
58
Lalit..You said it correctly. Muslims are exposed now.

They quote Noam Chomsky to damn USA. Great, USA is a bad country. But do they believe in Noam Chomsky's philosophy, views on Society, rights, education. No Way. Similarly, they take help of "secularism" in India. Do they believe in that ? No Way. They support Kerry against Bush. Do they Support Keery's world view? No. They take the name of Gandhi. Do they support Gandhi/Nehru's view? Nope...The list goes on and on and on.

These Indian Marxist Scroundels are learning very slowly. But I bet: they are learning. Look at CPM's West Bengal leadership's comments in recent days..whether infiltration of Bengaldeshi Muslims, or Madrassas, or Equal Rights of Women-Men...
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
57
Rustom Roy
----------

What ever the primitive customs some Indians stick to, they will gradually become true British. The people I know are doing well, and well assimilated. Indians are not a controversial
community. Crime levels are low, and economic and educational indexes are high. So dont worry about the Indians.

The muslims are doing badly across the board.
So your comments let us not choose my side or your side is pious wishful thinking.

Holland is boiling with rage, we have severe problems with muslims in Denmark, and the muslims
are being penalised under the patriot act in the USA.People will have to choose sides in such a situation. The muslims have chosen blind faith in Islam . Most civilised people are on the other side.

The world will change for the better when muslims
drop their attitudes which are widely disliked.
I dont expect this to happen for a hundred years For for the meanwhile, (though I supported Kerry), I am sure that Bush will be a staunch bulwark against muslimm fundamentalism.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
56
I would like to object to the title. The killing of Sikhs in 1984 was not a "Hindu riot of Passage" but a "Congress Riot of Passage". Khushwant Singh is falling prey to the old British tactic of Divide and Rule.
Avinash
Mumbai, India
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
55
If your Civilization is Lost (as India is loosing everyday), no Secularism is going to help you. Our Civilization is 5000 years Old. Concept of Secularism is only 200 years old.

Infact, even a top Marxist historian like Sumit Sarkar wrote about Hindu religion: The Concept of High Hindu Culture if "Dharma", "Karma" is not community based. Its personal. Person A's Karma doesn't affect the dharma of Person B, and vice Versa. Its opposite to that of Islam or Christanity. They have the concept of day of Judgement day when the God/Allah will come and punish everybody. So, they act as a community.

Its Hindu religion which by definition is more sercualr/private than Christanity/Islam. Protect it. Its a precious gift of 5000 years !
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
54
This is what Will Durant, the Liberal Amerian thinker, philosopher, historian wrote in his Seminal book, "Our Oriental Heritage- Vol 1".

"This is the secret of the political history of modern India. Weakened by Division, it succumbed to invaders; impoverished by Invaders, it lost all power of resistance, and took refuge in supernatural consolations; it argued both mastery and slavery were superficial delusions, and concluded that freedom of the body or the nation was hardly worth defending in so brief a life. The bitter lesson that may be drawn from this tragedy is that eternal vigilance is the price of the civilization. A nation must love peace, but keep its powder dry" (Our Oriental Heritage).

Please note, this book was published in 1940s, and was sold like a hot cake. It was sold in Millions! Read FOlks..And Think, and Cry...and cry..Those who are US, should get this book from their Library and Read..

Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
53
This is what Will Durant, the Liberal Amerian thinker, philosopher, historian wrote in his Seminal book, "Our Oriental Heritage- Vol 1".

"This is the secret of the political history of modern India. Weakened by Division, it succumbed to invaders; impoverished by Invaders, it lost all power of resistance, and took refuge in supernatural consolations; it argued both mastery and slavery were superficial delusions, and concluded that freedom of the body or the nation was hardly worth defending in so brief a life. The bitter lesson that may be drawn from this tragedy is that eternal vigilance is the price of the civilization. A nation must love peace, but keep its powder dry" (Our Oriental Heritage).

Please note, this book was published in 1940s, and was sold like a hot cake. It was sold in Millions! Read FOlks..And Think, and Cry...and cry..Those who are US, should get this book from their Library and Read..

Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
52
What Romila Thapar is doing? She is dividing Indian Hindus into multi-Nationality (Muslims don't support this theory). So that, a Tamilian/Kashmiri doesn't understand the pains of a Bengali(bigger than European holocaust in Bangladesh, Muslim immigration from Bangladesh). A Bengali/Kashmiri doesn't understand the threat faced by a Tamilian (Tamil Muslims are claiming Urdu instead of Tamil, completely negating Dravidian Culture. Just opposite effect of creatin of Bangladesh). No Indians care about Kashmiris. More Kashmiris were driven out from valley than Palestinians displaced by Israel during 1947-49.

Lets destroy this Culture of 5000 years in the name of Bengali/Tamil/Kashmiri identity. However, it will NOT stop there.

Ultimately, everything will be swamped by Arabian Culture. We will loose Bengali/Tamil/Kashmiri Identity for which we are fighting now. That's the Big Picture..So, Folks..Lets start destroying this culture...
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
51
First 2 Nation Theory, and then Multi Nation Theory !!

Indian Muslims (those who live in present day India) overwhelmingly voted for 2 Nation Theory in election of 1946. I don't complain, its their right to choose. However, its altogether different matter that they stayed on. Anyway.

Now, more importantly, this 2 nation theory was supported by Marxists, with as usual lots of jargon & theory. Great. Now, after 1947, these historians produced Multi-Nation Theory in India. So what does it tell us: a Bengali Hindu, a Tamilian Hindu, a Kashmiri Hindu belong to separate Nations.

So, a Bengali or Tamilian doesn't say anything if Kashmiri Hindus are driven out from his home. Even if its 5 Lakhs in Number. A Kashmiri or a Tamilian wouldn't mind if a Bengali Hindu is massacared in Bangladesh (non muslim population down from 33% to 9%). A Kashmiri or Bengali wouldn't mind if a Tamilian is oppressed in Sri Lanka.

This Cycle goes on and on and on. Ultimately, There will be no non-Muslim left in Bangladesh in 2020 at this present rate. Tamil Muslims living in Sri Lanka already chose Urdu as their Language, completely disregarding their proud Dravidian Heritage. Kashmiri Hindus are no more..

Its Great..isn't it? Remember the story when 5 Sticks are together. They become unbrekable. But when they are separate, they can be broken easily.
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Nov 13, 2004 12:00 AM
50
First 2 Nation Theory, and then Multi Nation Theory !!

Indian Muslims (those who live in present day India) overwhelmingly voted for 2 Nation Theory in election of 1946. I don't complain, its their right to choose. However, its altogether different matter that they stayed on. Anyway.

Now, more importantly, this 2 nation theory was supported by Marxists, with as usual lots of jargon & theory. Great. Now, after 1947, these historians produced Multi-Nation Theory in India. So what does it tell us: a Bengali Hindu, a Tamilian Hindu, a Kashmiri Hindu belong to separate Nations.

So, a Bengali or Tamilian doesn't say anything if Kashmiri Hindus are driven out from his home. Even if its 5 Lakhs in Number. A Kashmiri or a Tamilian wouldn't mind if a Bengali Hindu is massacared in Bangladesh (non muslim population down from 33% to 9%). A Kashmiri or Bengali wouldn't mind if a Tamilian is oppressed in Sri Lanka.

This Cycle goes on and on and on. Ultimately, There will be no non-Muslim left in Bangladesh in 2020 at this present rate. Tamil Muslims living in Sri Lanka already chose Urdu as their Language, completely disregarding their proud Dravidian Heritage. Kashmiri Hindus are no more..

Its Great..isn't it? Remember the story when 5 Sticks are together. They become unbrekable. But when they are separate, they can be broken easily.
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Nov 12, 2004 12:00 AM
49
Rustam Roy...."People need to start to think of themselves as "Indians" first and then Hindu, Muslim or whatever else."..You are most welcome. But what the ground facts say?

Fact is: American Muslims whole hearted supported John Kerry just because Kerry was opposing Georgr Bush in election. Kerry also has a solid vision about education, Modern Nation State, relation between Church & State, Equal rights for Women & Men etc etc. Does American Muslims support those? No way.

Similarly in India. Nehru, Gandhi, Tagore and many others who shaped modern India has a distinct vision for India's Nationhood. Do Muslims support Cong/CPM for believing in Secularism? Modern Education? Separation of State/religion? Equal rights of Women-Men? Population Control Policy, which is India's Biggest problem? Even as mundane as Immunization? Nope...No Way.

Indian Muslims support Cong/CPM NOT because they(Muslims) believe in concept of Nation-State, Secularism etc! But Cong/CPM happen to oppose Hindu nationalists.
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Nov 12, 2004 12:00 AM
48
Rustam Roy...."People need to start to think of themselves as "Indians" first and then Hindu, Muslim or whatever else."..You are most welcome. But what the ground facts say?

Fact is: American Muslims whole hearted supported John Kerry just because Kerry was opposing Georgr Bush in election. Kerry also has a solid vision about education, Modern Nation State, relation between Church & State, Equal rights for Women & Men etc etc. Does American Muslims support those? No way.

Similarly in India. Nehru, Gandhi, Tagore and many others who shaped modern India has a distinct vision for India's Nationhood. Do Muslims support Cong/CPM for believing in Secularism? Modern Education? Separation of State/religion? Equal rights of Women-Men? Population Control Policy, which is India's Biggest problem? Even as mundane as Immunization? Nope...No Way.

Indian Muslims support Cong/CPM NOT because they(Muslims) believe in concept of Nation-State, Secularism etc! But Cong/CPM happen to oppose Hindu nationalists.
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Nov 12, 2004 12:00 AM
47
Scene 3 ...

Indian Secularist : "People need to start to think of themselves as "Indians" first and then Hindu, Muslim or whatever else."

Indian Nationalist: Yeah, lets do that ... Lets have a single secular education system for all Indians irrespective of caste, creed, gender and religion ... Let the government fund secular schools so that our children can focus on maths & science.

Indian minority guy: Sorry, the government must fund our "minority religious institution".

Indian nationalist: But .. but ... wont a secular education where lil Indian children can learn common human values not only unite future generations of Indians but also alleviate poverty and any economic differences between communities ...

Indian "Secularist": (glaring at the Indian Nationalist) ... You Khaki Knicker, You Pracharak, You Fascist ...You want the Vedic gurukul system to be implemented ... You want to impoverish the minorities by denying them an education ... Dont you know that "People need to start to think of themselves as "Indians" first and then Hindu, Muslim or whatever else."

Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk ... Im off to lunch ... nothing like a good Masala Dosa & some sambar on a chilly day like this ...
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Nov 12, 2004 12:00 AM
46
Scene 2 ...

Indian Secularist : "People need to start to think of themselves as "Indians" first and then Hindu, Muslim or whatever else."

Indian Nationalist: Yeah, lets do that ... Lets have a single secular law for all Indians irrespective of caste, creed, gender and religion ...

Indian minority guy: Sorry, my laws were handed over to us by God. We cant even change a comma or a full stop.

Indian nationalist: But .. but ... wont a single law go a long way in forging unity among us Indians ...

Indian "Secularist": (glaring at the Indian Nationalist) ... You Khaki Knicker, You Pracharak, You Fascist ...You want the Manusmriti to be implemented ... Dont you know that "People need to start to think of themselves as "Indians" first and then Hindu, Muslim or whatever else."
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Nov 12, 2004 12:00 AM
45
Indian Secularist : "People need to start to think of themselves as "Indians" first and then Hindu, Muslim or whatever else."

Indian Nationalist: Yeah, lets do that ... Lets all sing Vande Mataram ...

Indian minority guy: Sorry, My religion does not permit it.

Indian nationalist: But .. but ... its just a hymn to our motherland ...

Indian "Secularist": (glaring at the Indian Nationalist) ... You Khaki Knicker, You Pracharak, You Fascist ... Dont you know that "People need to start to think of themselves as "Indians" first and then Hindu, Muslim or whatever else."

ad infinitum ... ad nauseam ...
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Nov 12, 2004 12:00 AM
44
I am in complete agreement with NITS' comments and relieved to see a poster on this site who does not see the world in "your side/my side" terms. It is this sort of unthinking and unqualified tribal allegiance to some sort of cultural grouping which is one of India's greatest problems. Here in the UK, it is all to easy to see NRIs (some of whom have bene here for daced and have never been back to India since leaving!) who have carried their prejudices, tribal allegiances and unquestioning loyalty to medieval customs with them, and support and fund various groups (of whatever religion) that perpetuate this hatred and divisiveness in India. People need to start to think of themselves as "Indians" first and then Hindu, Muslim or whatever else. If the people in India could take this small step, they would then not be so easy to manipulate by the corrupt political system that seeks to exploit these divisions. At first, it was the British Empire that did it and now it is our own esteemed politicians (of all parties) that do it.
Rustam Roy
London, UK
Nov 12, 2004 12:00 AM
43
the root of the problem is neither hindus nor sikhs/muslims/xians. it is the medivial and feudalistic tendency of "group justice"/revenge, that we have in this part of the world. this is an extension of what we see in our villages. a woman is ordered to be raped by panchayat, because her fellow dalit male ran of with a upper caste woman and so on. were it not for other religions, the revenges will be taken on the basis of region and caste among hindus( like humilating north indians in mumbai by shiv sainiks, caste wars in north etc.). this type of thinking is typical of third world countries, including indian subcontinent, mid east and africa. what is more sickening is that we have these morons sitting in western world, but their thinking is still medivial and upon that, they incite and fund troblemakers. by their logic, if i was robbed in chennai, i should come back to delhi and find and tamilian, beat him up and rob him, just because thats how they treat us in chennai! little do they realize that by the same extension of logic, lower castes have a totally justified reason to humilate upper caste hindus, to revenge their thousands of years of humilation. what a pity!
nits
nashville, USA
Nov 12, 2004 12:00 AM
42
India's glorious secular past has been marred by horrendous communal incidents that have not been brought to a closure. The Sikh killings of 1984 were one of such incidents. Innocents were dragged out and killed just because they were Sikhs. I remember travelling down the GT road teh day after Mrs Gandhi's assasination and the road was empty of trucks - all the Sikh drivers had chosen to stay off the roads. We owe it to all innocent people who were killed in riots all over India that these incidents are investigated thoroughly and people brought to justice , irrespective of who they are.Justice delayed is justice denied.
Shariq Ahmad
Abu Dhabi, UAE
Nov 12, 2004 12:00 AM
41
Some of your comments:
1) The conclusion is clear: in secular India there is one law for the Hindu majority, another for Muslims, Christians and Sikhs who are in minority.
My comment: For heavens' sake, you are comparing justice delivered to those who killed IndiraGandhi, not the sikhs who killed a hindu, with non-sikh mobs who killed sikhs. Tthis is comparing apples to oranges. This comparison can't be a basis for a publishable article.

2) I warned the government in Parliament and through my articles against using the army to get hold of Bhindranwale and his followers as the consequences would be grave. And so they were.
My Comment: Bravo!! Doesn't take a genius to see grave consequences arising out of such a military adventure. The point is, was there an alternative?

3) Hindus do not have to prove their nationality; only Muslims, Christians and Sikhs are required to give evidence of their patriotism.
Mmy Comment: Once again, your communal tone shows up. The fact is that significant sections of sikh society and muslim society have fought, based on religion, for independence and caused murder and mayhem in the process. You will be hard found to find significant section of hindu society (depending on who you consider to be a hindu) that has faught, based on religion, to separate from India. Dare we not question the patriotism of freedom-fighters/terrorists under such circumstances?


4) The terrorist movement petered out as the terrorists turned gangsters and took to extortion and robbery.
My comment: This sentence sounds as if you have sympathies for "terrorists" until "they turned gangsters and took to extortion". Damned I am if I do not trust your patriotism.

Summary
You present the problem in a communal tone with a bias for your own community disguised under a cloak of secular propounding, minority redressal and resistance to communalism.


I am glad that you could call the sikh president who released a sikh killer of a hindu, hide yourself in a swedish diplomats home, and hide your mother in a hindu's home during the troubles.

I am sorry that some of your hindu friends couldnt live upto your secular expectations after your survival of the riots and that some of the editorials couldnt desist from congress ass licking and bashed sikhs.

I am also sorry for you that an Italian supported sikh PM is ruling hindu majority india under a muslim president and is having a sikh financial advisor. But, hey, this is what you expect in a country which has rules for hindus differnt from rules for sikhs, muslims, christians and so many innumerous more social sects.
akshay
hyd, india
Nov 12, 2004 12:00 AM
40
Ahem!
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 12, 2004 12:00 AM
39
Khuswant Singh commits the same mistake as the one he tries to correct. By calling it as hindu riot he is making a sweeping statement. He forgets the thousands of sikhs saved by the hindus(mainly RSS workers). His analogy is as bad as saying that since there were many sikh terrorist killing innocent people, we can classify all sikhs as terrorists.

He would probably have been more accurate if he described the perpetrators as congress workers acting under their leaders orders.
Sandith
Ulsan, South Korea
Nov 12, 2004 12:00 AM
38

Joseph the Paki,

So your heart is filled with pleasure that Indian secular credentials are being discussed by Indians.

Listen Joseph, at least we hv secularism and we have the freedom to discuss this aspect without having to worry about some agency like ISI dragging us for questioning.

Too bad for you- you neither have secularism in your country nor the freedom to discuss anything so human as secularism. For you Mush, Mush and Mush in different civilian and military ruler's uniform and Islam, Islam and Islam.

No wonder you keep on taking out your frustrations and 'bhadaas' on this forum.

Perhaps, I will not allow you to see a politer side of Indian Hindus because I know you Pakis do not deserve it. You people are 'laaton ke bhoot......

Happy Deepawali. May the glow of the occasion enlighten your hearts.

Our hearts are very enlightened and spare the sarcasm, will you?.

BTW, we do not go and kill those innocent bakras or Chickens by halal method to celebrate Diwali and to satisfy our blood-thirsty medieval aspect of our personality on any religious occassion like you Pakis do.

We light earthen diyas not only to remove darkness prevailing in the hearts of evil and demonic forces anywhere in the world- but to remove those, whose sole objective is to kill innocent people by terrorism and haivaaniyat.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Nov 12, 2004 12:00 AM
37
parthasarty,
get your logic straight.Rajiv should have resighned in 84.Bhagat was leading the mobs.Modi wasnt.He was cm like sudhakar naik in mumbai 93,and many other cms who were equally responsible if not more than modi .Rajiv was pm .You never asked any of these people to resign
in 55 yrs because they were your favorite congressmen.In fact gandhi,nehru should have been held responsible in 1847 for partition deaths.But your types were sleeping till gujarat 2002 when you woke up with double standards against hindus and modi.Mostly hindus had died in alll riots and partition before and sikhs in 84.tHAT WAS FINE WITH TRAITORS AND SECULAR IDIOTS LIKE U.bUT when muslims were killed,your alarm clock woke u up.You are disgusting.Don't even try to reply.Instaed of making an ass of yourself disappear.A minimal sense of logic and sense is required.Dont waste space and time of readers
j asgutd
madison, usa
Nov 12, 2004 12:00 AM
36
"Perhaps, I will see a politer side of Indian Hindus."

Kya hua Joseph saab, just a couple of Brickbats and you expect all Indian Hindus to be impolite ... hmm isnt there a word called bigotry or something for stuff like that ...

"Happy Deepawali. May the glow of the occasion enlighten your hearts. "

Ditto ..
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Nov 12, 2004 12:00 AM
35
Let me be a silent observer while this indictment of India's secular credentials is debated. Perhaps, I will see a politer side of Indian Hindus.

Happy Deepawali. May the glow of the occasion enlighten your hearts.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Nov 12, 2004 12:00 AM
34
Why is Tytler around ? Why is Sonia Gandhi around ?

The riots in Gujarat were a Hindu riot ... even Hindus from the Congress were involved ... I say that Modi should be on trial for eating Dhoklas while the riots occurrred .. but can anyone say "Liberal" or "Secularist" say that Sonia Gandhi or Tytler etc must be on trial for eating Tiramisu while Congress goonsn butchered the Sikhs... I challenge the whole lot of you ...
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Nov 12, 2004 12:00 AM
33
RK, Canada

"You are the voice of truth in this jungle of confusion "

Au contraire .. he is the voice of obfuscation in this land of confusion ... In the Eighties, when Pk trained terrorists were singling out Hindus in buses and killing them .. did we see any Hindu Sikh riots ... why not ??? PTV was beaming "Musalman-Sikh bhai, bhai ... Hindu kaun kahaan se aae " slogans ... There were enough resons then were there not ... but you instantly saw riots when Indira Gandhi died ... for the simple reason being that it was a Congress-Sikh riot ... but K. Singh wants to tar the entire Hindu community ... if this kind of brush was applied by a Hindu for any other community .. that Hindu would be labelled as a Hindu fanatic or Khaki knicker or Pracharak ... but hey ... India is the "land of confusion" ... Does Mr Singh think he will get any justice by not naming the Congress or by not stating Rajivs famous dialog ... is that his way of kowtowing to Sonia .. his way of saying .. you punish the perpetrators & I will "detoxify" the truth by calling it a "Hindu" riot ...

That way ignoramuses in the Indian diapora, journalists, liberals, and their fathers brothers sons with half baked information ... can put two and two together .... Hindus killed Sikhs in 1984 .. Hindus killed Muslims in 2002 ... the RSS believes in Hindutva ... Therefore the RSS killed the Sikhs and Muslims ...

Rajivs & Sonia Gandhis hate filled legacy is given a white wash ...and we Hindus get the blame ...

Justice ??? ... I think Rajiv & Sonia ought to be hanged ... but fat chance !!!
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Nov 12, 2004 12:00 AM
32
You are the voice of truth in this jungle of confusion we call India and trust me we need more learned men of your ilk who believe and follow human values to the core and awaken society from its slumber and accept democracy in its true colours than distort it for religious or political purposes.Let us hear more from your wise bank as it invigorates and enhances meaning of life to tolerate,accept and mingle with all folks intellectually without inhibitions for the greater good of generations to come!!!
rakeshkapoor
london, canada
Nov 11, 2004 12:00 AM
31
Briefly we all know that there is no justice in
India, or law and order when powerful people are
involved.

So the GOI should do the second best, Pay handsome compensations to the victims, and the
entire cabinet should give an apology to the victims,because they are unable to punish the
leaders, some of whom are ministers.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Nov 11, 2004 12:00 AM
30
Mr. Singh has forgotten thousands of innocent Hindus who were butchered in Punjab by the militant sikhs. How about the time table to bring those militants to justice?
Rajinder Saxena
Uppsala, Sweden
Nov 10, 2004 12:00 AM
29

"Kushwasnt Singh presented an interesting story and the culprits must be punished. But it seems that it is one sided fact. He should have clarified why that happened- the root cause- of riots.

DIVYESH RAYTHATHA
DOVER USA,"

Sir, in this country, the 'root-cause justification' is "reserved for minorities".

So if Muslims kill Hindus in Godhra, or Sikhs terrorise and kill innocent Hindus in Punjab- you can use root cause justification of Palestine, Chechnya and so on.

But not when it happens the other way round- as it happened in Delhi or Gujarat.

Then Hindus are to be blamed because they are the majority.

Get it?


Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Nov 10, 2004 12:00 AM
28
Pankaj..You are correct. I think there was a great dialog by Gregory Peck in "How to kill a Mocking Bird" of similar effect: Look at the situation from the other side as well. To look at Humanistic Side, you need to go no further from Rich Indian Philosophy starting fro Vedas to 14th Century Vaishva one. Dr. Radhakrishnan wrote a wonderful 2 Vol history of that.

However, when you come to reality, its shattering. The "Sufi" tradition you are talking about, is under a great attack in India, and other South Asian States like Bangladesh, Sri lanka. Not from Hindus or Buddhists, but from Sunni Muslims. Read this BBC story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/39 79575.stm

Look at Bangladesh, situation of not only Hindus or Buddhists, but also to Sufis, Ahmadiyas..Read another BBC story.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/39 85785.stm

Unless Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs close their Rank and confront this, everybody will be perished. This Communist theory of India's Multi-Nationhood brought enough disaster. Even if I convert to Islam, I will NOT be able to preserve my Language, Bengali. Some day, everybody will swaped by Culture of Arabian Peninsula !
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Nov 09, 2004 12:00 AM
27
Reading the raves and rants apropos Mr. Singh's writing, I am reminded of a recitation of Shah Inayat Hussain, a Sufi, who stated,
"Saiyon ni, aseen nainaan de aakhe lagge
Jinhan deeyan howan paak nigahaan kade naa jaande thagge".
It is interesting to observe that each person who has responded to Mr. Singh's article has read and understood it through the prism of his/her individual life experiences and accordingly passed judgement, while ignoring the other part.
Mr. Singh does not appear to have blamed the Hindus, or absolved the Congress party or Bhindrawale and his ilk for all that happened.
The writing does, however raise one issue, "At a human level, is it right that one life be worth more than another?"
The "cause and effect" way of interpreting history has brought us to this state of apathy where Fallujahs get bombed and innocents die, where farmers in Andhra continue to kill themselves, humans are slaughtered in Sudan/Rwanada and elsewhere, yet we remain unmoved because it does not directly affect us.
But it does.
Please forget who/what caused the deaths of innocent Sikhs/Hindus/Muslims/Christians/Jews/HUMANS; focus instead on what can be done to ensure this mindless killing does not continue, and that justice is available to all those who seek it.
Let us learn to be tolerant and not stoke the fires of communalism/race/ethnicity which will engulf the human race.
Pankaj
Oakville, Canada
Nov 09, 2004 12:00 AM
26
Venu..My friend..You have hit the Bulls Eye ! When it was partition of 1947, it was a two nation Theory by islamists and Communists. Now its multi-Nation Theory by Communist Historians like Romila Thapar etc. The peril we can see already. Nothing could be done when 5 Lakh Kashmiri Pandits were driven out from their ancestral Land. Incidentally, less number of people were driven out originally between 1947-49 from Palestine !

Unless, we Hindus become together, make a common identity its peril after peril. However, there are major change already happening. Karunakaran, the "father" of Dravidian politics didn't speak against Savarkar when the row broke out. Bangalore has both MPs from BJP. Myself being a Bengali, talking about Hindi --there are indications we are coming closer. Else, look at Bangladesh/Pakistan and the treatment of Hindus/Buddhists !

Recently, a interesting event happened in SriLanka when Tamil Muslims chose Urdu as their Language over Tamil. I hope Peoples from all of South India understand its meaning ! This multi-nation will spell doom for Its age-old Civilization, if not already !

Please read a rhetoric of a Islamist in a letter to Atimes.com. He is also talking about Multi-Ethnic India and their rights. Its hilarious, he talks about Gujarat where 750 Muslims were died, but he forgets Kashmir where 5 Lakh Hindus were driven out..

--------------------
The comments by your Indian and American readers as well as columnists are hilariously Orwellian in terms of their anti-Muslim and anti-Chinese rhetoric. For example, the letters from Kannan (Nov 1) and Amit Sharma (Nov 2) self-righteously profess concern for Chinese Tibet and Xinjiang, even as India is waging a bloody counter-insurgency war against Kashmir, Assam, Bodoland and Manipur as we speak. Kannan and Sharma act as if the ethnic cleansing committed by Indian Hindu brownshirts in Gujarat never happened and can be safely swept under the rug with the usual claptrap about Indian tolerance and secularism. These Indian nationalists should ask themselves when their vaunted democracy will grant greater autonomy to these ethnic nations within India before they posture as great democrats. Indeed, notice how ATol shills like [Sudha] Ramachandran predictably try to demonize these struggles in Kashmir, Bodoland, or Assam as either terrorism or extremism in their propaganda coverage. This tactic mimics the USA's feeble efforts to portray Iraqi people fighting against America's murderous occupation as terrorists. Ultimately, like the American imperialists whom they emulate, pro-India fascists love to wrap themselves in self-righteous rhetoric about freedom and democracy as a political cover for their own crimes at home and abroad. Even worse, they seek to manipulate this phony rhetoric as a propaganda weapon against rival nations or religions, as is displayed here on ATol. It is only appropriate that India and America are increasingly strategic allies. Fascist capitalism behind a democratic mask is what these nations share in common.
DP (Nov 9, '04)

--------------------
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Nov 09, 2004 12:00 AM
25
Kushwasnt Singh presented an interesting story and the culprits must be punished. But it seems that it is one sided fact. He should have clarified why that happened- the root cause- of riots.
DIVYESH RAYTHATHA
Dover, USA
Nov 09, 2004 12:00 AM
24
As I see it in India everybody belongs to a minority group. I am a malyalee Nair and compared to the rest of Indians of course my community is a minority, so would the same be of numerous other Indians. With so much divisions in our country who gets to decide who is a minority? Isn't it time we stop identifying ourselves solely as belonging to a particular region and community? Isn't it time we just accept the fact that we are Indians first and Last with no 'Conditions apply'?

It is more disturbing when so called "secular Itellectuals" like Mr. Kushwant Singh put a communal spin on a political riot. And with him blindly defending the current govt. who were solely responsible for the entire riot and its aftermath it smacks of to say the least hypocricy.
The entire tirade sounds very hollow and that of a desperate attention seeker who is willing to go to any lengths to get the attention he feels he deserves.
Pseudo secularisim is back in fashion and how!
Venu
Bharat, India
Nov 09, 2004 12:00 AM
23
hmm.... This article smells of a craving need for 'minority appeasing' attitude. When, learned and able citizens like Khuswant Singh slice their article across 'you majority - me minority' stuffs, you know where the country is headed for... As somebody said... "I have seen the enemy, and it is us."
Sudarshan Bengani
Kolkata, India
Nov 09, 2004 12:00 AM
22
Mr. singh's point is valid that why the
perpetrators of crimes against the Sikh community have not been caught and punished? One of the contributing reason Sikh community has journalists and spokesmen like Mr. Singh.

I come from that part of Pre-partition India where eldest son in every Hindu family was made a
Sikh. My first cousins are Sikhs. In my growing years we never experienced any discrimination between Hindus and Sikhs. As a matter of fact, after partition Sikhs were the super citizens of India. Mr. Singh claims to be a historian, why does he not look into the history and try to educate himself as to what brought about the separation between the two communities. In discussing the aftermath of Mrs. Gandhi assassination, he very conveniently forgets that it was not the Right Wing Hindu National Government in power, but his beloved, so called, Secular Congress Party Government. If my memory serves me right, The, then, President of India was Giani Zail Singh. To describe the character of Mr. Singh, I have an anecdote stuck in my memory. In early sixties Mr. Singh was addressing American students ,I believe it was Columbia university, in the New York City, Mr. Singh in speech made very snooty remarks about Hindus and Hindu culture. tO add insult to the injury, his closing remark was that he was going to his hotel or apartment to have a ”BEEFSANDWHICH". So much about Mr. Singh OBJECTIVITY and IMPARTIALITY.Mr. singh's "Oh, that other Hindu Riot of Passage" only reflects his mental stage which is nothig but full of hatred for Hindus.
shiv sawhney
orange,ct, usa
Nov 09, 2004 12:00 AM
21

Note to OUTLOOK d/9-11-2k4 on Khushvant Singh’s article
In his first speech after nomination as PM, Man Mohan Singh referred to India’s civilization being essentially based on the tolerance of Hinduism. He did not, despite being a practicing sikh, refer to himself as part of an anti-hindu minority in India. Mr. Kushwant Singh, who is probably an atheist, is clearly emphasizing antagonism between hindus and Sikhs, possibly to please anti-India pay-masters from the mid-west Sikhism, with Govind Singh as tenth guru was created only as an armed and disciplined wing of Hinduism to protect it from the Islamic onslaught. ‘ avataara-daSam vishnum govinda-anta-guror-daSe hari-mandire amrita-vaatyaam swarNaalaye arcate sikhah ‘ It pains the hindu mind whan the latter-day sikh calls himself an anti-hindu minority in India and the 1984 riots as mainly hindu riots against Sikhs. Moslems in Delhi who enjoy putting India into trouble and the many crypto-hindus who have embraced islam secretly for polygamic privileges could have contributed to the carnage, as also in the case of post-Godhra riots in Gujarat. In fact, the forces which constantly blame the BJP as being divisive are the ones who want to stall India’s unity and growth in the name of pluralism. I am all for compensation to riot- ictim families in Delhi, Godhra and Gujarat. The VHP should leave the temple construction to the wisdom and power of Lord Rama, but raise funds from NRI-hindus to quickly compensate riot-victims in Delhi and Gujarat, without bothering about enquiry commissions, to prove that the hindus believe in ahimsaa as ‘paramo dharmah’ and that that ‘himsaa doshayati iti hindoo’
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Nov 09, 2004 12:00 AM
20
This is a good article
DIVYESH RAYTHATHA
Dover, USA
Nov 09, 2004 12:00 AM
19
Khusbant Singh has proved again that he is not an Indian but a Sikh alone. Most disturbing is his claim when he refers to Manmohan Singh's decision to hire Montek as "he in his turn selecting another Sikh, Montek Singh Ahluwalia, to head the Planning Commission.".....Its worse than RSS's take ! Khusbant should remember that Montek is given the Job based on his capability which has nothing to do with his faith.

Nobody seems to address the bigger Question. When Bhindrenwale rose in 1980s, Punjab was already most properous state in India, thanks to Green Revolution. The Avg Income & spending in Punjab Villages and towns are almost same which means its probably most far reaching grass-root development in India. Why on earth, with so much of prosperity, people would turn towards Bhindrenwale and his philosophy? Is there a relation between cultural affirmation and prosperity? What does events of Gujrat, maharashtra etc show. Isn't riot a urban phenomenon, even though 75% people live in villages?

It also shows the folly of present form of 'secularism' which is followed in India. Isn;t it the goal of the state to bring prosperity to its citizen? But with more prosperity, urbanization, isn't tolerance is being reduced as well.

Atleast, it can be said, there is a big disconnect !
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Nov 09, 2004 12:00 AM
18
Dear Mr. Singh,
I agree with the first comment you make regarding the injustice (justice delayed) to the riot victims of 1984. I always admired you judgment to call spade a spade. However I am disappointed by your views which sounds against the separation of religion and state. You are playing into the same hands as any fundamentalist who would classify a human being not on his merits but on his belonging to a caste, race or color for that matter. Lets praise Dr. Manmohan Singh for his ability and intellect and not because he belongs to Sikh community. I do not think his attitude or intellect would be any different if he was not a Sikh. Thanks
Ambuj
Saint Petersburg, USA
Nov 08, 2004 12:00 AM
17
Mr. Singh's article is titled for provocation. Plus its libel when the known cause for the Sikh killings were hired goons of the Congress party in reprisal for Mrs. Gandhi's death. There was no uprising of Hindus against Sikhs anywhere in INdia after Mrs. Gandhi;s death or during the killings of many Hindus by Khalistani separatists. Mr. Singh should be ashamed of his article libeling an entire community for a political party's misdeeds. Shame on your magazine for publication of an erroneous article. Please stop abusing the Hindu community's tolerance.
dirty doggie
san francisco, usa
Nov 08, 2004 12:00 AM
16
There is only one law and that is NO LAW which exsists for all Hindu majority, Muslims, Christians and Sikhs.
Writer who are gifted need not be biased Mr Khushwant Singh needs to admit that 25000 people were killed in
Punjab and till date no capital punishment has been awarded to any of the terrorists who survived the encounters
of Punjab police. Recently top terrorists have returned to India and have been accuited by the courts.Thousands
get killed every year in Kashmir, Assam Andhra Pardesh by Terrorists and Naxalites and there are no convictions.

Khushwant Singh has forgotten DIG Atwal and numerous Hindu bus, rail passengers who were segregated from
sikh passengers lined outside buses and homes and then shot down in front of their families post Bluestar.
Khushwant shows selective amnesia for incidents relating to ethenic cleaninsing of Punjab during the terrorism
period.. He like many other writers from miniority society (some of whom use Hindu sounding names) have a
reason for terrorism after action Bluestar. And they fail to recall the reasons for that action.Operation Black
Thunder was against a very small group of terrorists as compared to Bluestar.

Laws have failed in Canada till date to punish the perpetators of Kanishka in which 30 Sikhs also died and is thus
a secular terrorist act according to Khuswant. The reasons for violence of 80's lie in the murder of the Chief of miniority
sect Nirankari. Khushwant has failed to address this issue. This contry is secular only because of Hindus majority.
No Muslim, Sikh or Christian miniority has to convert the way Bobby Jindal did to run for senate. Can Khushwant
imagine a Hindu CM of Punjab/J.K or some other christian dominated state. Can Khushwant imagine a Hindu PM
of the separist state of Khalistan about which he thinks so loud. Why can Khuswant not write on attack at miniority
sects like Nirankari, RadhaSoami in Punjab

Khuswant did the right thing in returning the Padam Vibhushan as such awards are the result of two laws which
prevail in this country one for people like Indra, Khuswant, Staines ........ and one for all sikhs who were brutually
murdered in cold blood, Muslims of Gujrat and of thousands of Hindus who have been and are being killed to
ethinically clean Punjab, Northeast and Kashmir and of course all these dates Khuswant fails to remember.
Anurag Arora
Jalandhar, India
Nov 08, 2004 12:00 AM
15
India = Indira
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Nov 08, 2004 12:00 AM
14
India Gunned down in Oct 31 1984, Amry called in Delhi after 2 days, some 10,000 Killed. Worst was: Rajiv called National election for December 2004. Where was election commission, and secular Media? I think, Rajiv acted worse than Modi ! Guess what, Rajiv comes back with 80% of seat which his mother or even Grand-pa couldn't get !

Guess what ! He blew it in Shahabanu and Ayodhya !! Now, we have to deal with the inner voice of his wife !! God Bless India and its misfortune ! What a win for 'secularists', who are doing dis-service to themselves !
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Nov 08, 2004 12:00 AM
13
There are actually 3 sets of laws - one for Hindus (the suffering majority), one for "Other Minorities" (sikhs, christians etc., who are also suffereing), and one for Mullahs (the only ones who are really enjoying it all).
With Congress in Indian Politics, I am sure, criminals responsible for killing so many innocent Sikhs will never be punished. The self-proclaimed torch-bearers of secularism have ensured that the criminals like Jagdish Tytler are not just protected from punishment but are also rewarded.
There is no hope for justice in this country till the time we have such "secularist rascals".
skdonweb
Bangalore, India
Nov 08, 2004 12:00 AM
12
I understand the grudge of Mr. Singh but I disagree with what he mentioned "rule is different for Hindus and other minorities". This is purely crap and depicts communal bend of mind of Mr. Singh. He should try to understand under what conditions this riot took place. It may happen to any community in Idia. Imagine one hypothetical case - Bengalis of West Bengal want a separate homeland of "Bangalistan". Kalighat or Dakshineshwar becomes their base. Some bengalis start preaching hatred against non-bengalis and start killing non-bengalis in West Bengal. Bangladesh starts helping the separatists. Indian army enters kalighat/Dakhsineshwar and frees the place from so called "freedom fighters" as it did in Amritsar. Bengalis all over India are shocked by this incident. Indira Gandhi has bengali body guards who kill her. What will happen to Bengalis all over India after that???? It will be a repeat of the same what happened to the Sikhs.

Criminals/rioteers will not be punished for sure as they will have support of one political party although Bengalis are Hindus. Underlying point is - it is not separate rule of law for Hindus and others. It is the callousness of our Indian system. Mr. Khushwant Singh should desist from spreading venom of communalism directly or indirectly. Please send this mail to Mr. Singh so that he becomes more rational in future. He may be perhaps a good writer but he does not have any right to spread false allegation based on communalism.

Thanks,

Kishore
kishore
Mumbai, India
Nov 08, 2004 12:00 AM
11
From the article:

The dark months of alienation are over; the new dawn promises blue skies and sunshine for the minorities with only one black cloud remaining to be blown away—a fair deal to families of victims of the anti-Sikh violence of 1984. It was the most horrendous crime committed on a mass scale since we became an independent nation. Its perpetrators must be punished because crimes unpunished generate more criminals.
Zafar
Sydney, Australia
Nov 08, 2004 12:00 AM
10
parthasarthy your analogy is wrong.Rajiv gandhi was the pm and not bhagat .Did you ask rajiv gandhi to go?So shut up?dID YOU ASK SUDHAKAR NAIK TO GO AFTER MUMBAI RIOTS OR ANY CONGRESS CM AFTER THOUSANDS OF RIOTS SINCE INDEPENDENCE INCLUDING GUJARAT 85 WHICH WAS BIGGER THAN 2002?

who was like the typical congressmaan who is adept at milking riots for political gain to preserve votebanks.Godhra was started by congress councillor.

I REPEAT
Did you ask rajiv gandhi to go?
No right?
Then shut up?

j asgutd
madison, usa
Nov 07, 2004 12:00 AM
9
I really appreciate writings of Khushwant singh and so is this article. But the conclusion of this article is not in the way it should be.
During the article Mr. singh many times talked about Muslim Minority but in the end where he concludes that black days are over for india he never bothered about issues like GODHARA and BABRI MASJID riots.
Where is the justice for those families Mr Singh? Hindu's, Muslims and all others suffered during those burning days but no one got the justice yet so its not the Sikh community only that is suffering and surely it proves that there aren't two different laws for Majority and Minority. The point that i am trying to make here is that "India's Black days will not be over by bringing only the culprits of 84 to justice. But it takes more than that."

amit
orai, India
Nov 07, 2004 12:00 AM
8
Khushwant singh is cunningly trying to blame the hindus for sikh pogrom.The butchers who did in the sikhs, were not true hindus,but congressi goons.The distinction must be made clear at the onset.Even christians were seen butchering sikhs with glee.If khushwant singh has any shame left in him,he should in the first place ask manmohan singh to give up the position given in charity by the widow of the butcher of sikhs!
vinodbevda
birmingham, uk
Nov 07, 2004 12:00 AM
7
sir,
this refers to the letter of ps sukhur.bangalore in outlook india.com(6-11-2004)
he says that india has to prove her secular credentials.well it has been done in more than one ways as the following facts will prove.

1.the indian muslims divided india and created Pakistan.at the time of partition there were nearly 2 crore hindus in pakistan.today there are just 20 lakhs hindus left in pakistan!on the other hand the muslims who numbered 3 crores in india in 1947 have grown to be 13 crores in 2001!Perhaps for the likes of sukkoors india would be secular only when hindus are wiped out and the entire india is converted into an "Islamic republic"!

2.indian secularism and secularists and marxists and meccalites have allowed 3 crores of bagladeshi muslim infiltrators to intrude into india obtain ration cards and become voters here.are sukkoors still not satisfied with "such secular progress and want still more"?

3.wherever muslims are in a majority they annihilate the minorities and suppress them brutally.but wherever they are in a minority they are the greatest champions of secularism!Nothing proves this,better, than the "Muslim majority "kashmir valley!From there 3 lakhs kashmirity minority hindus have been hounded out and become refugees in their own country!Still sukkorrs have the temerity to say that india has to prove her secular credentials!Should not the boot be on the other leg sukkoor bhai?

4.muslims can marry 4 times and produce 40.but hindus alone should practise family planning and ruin themselves in the number game.the secularists would not dare to enforce two familynorm for all the eligible couple in the country even when the court upholds two children norms in a case.muslims and christians can go on multiplying their numbers at the cost of gullible hindus.Stillsukkor are you not satisfied with such an indian secularism where the muslims wins all the heads and hindus lose all the tails?

5.muslims divided india and took away one third of it*s land in 1947.but they would not relent to give back the temple at ayodhya back to hindus even though historical evidences are available to prove that a temple for shri rama existed in His birth place at that verysite?if such a triumph of secularism does not satisy you sukkor what else will?

6.sukkorrs can not be found fault with.the fault lies with trecherous congress men anti national communists anti indian human rights activists behind whose backs "secularists"like sukkorrs are riding.when the cowardly hindus wake up from their slumber the indian secularism would have truly peoved it*s credentials!Let sukkor wait for is nthat day which is not far off and on the anvail.(L.rohini)
L.ROHINI
tiruchirappalli, India
Nov 07, 2004 12:00 AM
6
Shubha
-------

It is the hunting season this time of the year in Denmark.In India it is open season to hunt down the Hindu fascists.

From what I read we Hindus must be the worst.
Worse then the Americans, Israelis, Taliban,
muslim terrorists.

In no other country does a community indulge in self flegallation as our Hindu friends do,
You do not read about the others moaning and
walking around with ash and sack cloth.
Absolutely dreary.

For my part Gujerat was a bad affair , provoked by the minority communities burning of the Sabarmati coach full of Hindu pilgrims- including women and children. Let the trial be completed,wrong doers punished and then let us stop talking about it.

Regarding the Babri masjid I have a similar
feeling. The derelict mosque was destroyed,and
I would say let the Hindus build the Ram temple there. No apologies are needed. Muslims can not be allowed to decide Indias agenda all the time.

In Granada, Spain the grand mosque now functions as a church. No one is crying about it, In
Constantinople a several hundred year old church is now a mosque.Hindus are just too thin skinned, and guilt ridden.The world is not for the weak and cowardly.Muslims have converted several temples to mosques. They are not willing to make amends, or are they.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Nov 07, 2004 12:00 AM
5
The massacre of Sikhs was not a 'hindu' crime but a congress crime. Anyone in Punjab (India) will tell u how Sikhs and Hindus have lived like brothers for centuries. In fact it was not so long ago that Hindu families used to actually 'donate' their eldest son to sikhism.

Once again Outlook has published a biased article without touching on the basic facts and put in another sensatanalistic title ...

What happened in Gujarat was a religious riot and it was shameful. Hopefully the crimes will be punished.

But what happened in Delhi was a political riot by the so called 'secular' congress.

Shubha
greenville, USA
Nov 07, 2004 12:00 AM
4
this guy is using the tragedy of his community to score communal points against Hindus and political points against sangh parivar that he is known for.Hey u traitor the killers were congress men who led the mobs and its your congress friends whose behind you have been licking for years since Indira and sanjay.(We remember your sycophancy to sanjay in illustarted weekly of india during emergency).People like you should be tried for treason by your community for extracting political mileage from the tragedy of your community.This is disgusting .Even more so than his frivolous stuff on sex and booze.No wonder it makes the outlook pages.
The Mr madrasas who run it will be delighted that kafir hindus can be bashed even if it means not catching the reall congress culprits.In fact this magazine bills the congress for propaganda favorable to congress.And that bill must run into millions of rupees or is it petro dollars
j asgutd
madison, usa
Nov 07, 2004 12:00 AM
3
All the killers were Congress goons headed by Jagdish Tytler and HKL Bhagat and many other congress leaders. How can Kushwant lie this and say the culprits are Hindus? This article shows his obedience and slavery for Congress party to protect it from Sikhs. He back-stabbed his own community and want to defame Hindus, instead of Congress men. I am shy that I read all these lies on Outlook.
brp
kolkata, india
Nov 06, 2004 12:00 AM
2
There is no question that 1984 riots have left a scar on the soul of the nation. 20 years have passed and Govt selects comssion after commission so that people will forget the misdeeds.The leaders who brought truck loads of killers and mass murders from neighboring states are still in offices.When are we going to be fair to our sikh brothern and have justice for them.How many people can remeber the exact facts after 10/15 years and how can a commission this late can give a justifiable report.
Ever since partition of the nation, the mob mentality has increased as the political leaders have used such goondas to win seats.
Justice delayed is Justice denied. That is the case here.Where is the judiciary at present? What a shame to the nation that it has taken 20 years and still no justice being offered.
Shadi Katyal
Marietta. Ga.., USA
Nov 06, 2004 12:00 AM
1
I hope the Gujarati perpertrators wont get away either, Khushwant.

Just as the Meerut violence perpertrators. And that the survivors of the Bhopal tragedy are compensated at least 2 decades after the tragedy.

Just to draw a similarity between Delhi and Godhra. Gandhis assasins have been hanged, while many ( some may say too many innocent ) muslims have been arrested over Godhra, while the violence that followed remains out of purview.

I agree that to call itself 'secular', India has much much more to do to prove its credentials.
Shukoor PS
Bangalore, India