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Tribhuvan Tiwari
exclusive up muslims
Madrassa Kids Need Zero-Terror Seal
Or they don't get any state grant. Why are the schools taking this humiliation?
"I promise you there will be an inquiry. We will fix responsibility and punish the guilty. These forms stand withdrawn immediately."
Mulayam Singh, Chief Minister, UP

"It can be held in violation of Article 14 (equality) and 21 (life & livelihood)."
Justice A.M. Ahmadi Former CJI


"It's outrageous. Those who framed this must be held accountable."
Tahir Mahmood, Ex-chief, Minority Panel


"This is a legacy of the BSP rule. One of their officers has put this clause."
Azam Khan, SP Leader



Imagine a school that has to first acquire a certificate from the state saying 'it is not promoting anti-national sentiments, is not a den for terrorism and is not perpetuating communalism'. Once an official has inspected the school and signed the certificate, it is eligible for a grant from the state to upgrade its facilities. This unfortunate institution is obviously presumed guilty till proved innocent.

Is this happening in Narendra Modi's territory? No, this bizarre scene is a reality for many Muslims in Mulayam Singh Yadav's Uttar Pradesh. A highly publicised state government scheme to upgrade madrassas requires the applicants to acquire precisely such a certificate from the district minority welfare officer!

The Uttar Pradesh Madrassas Vocational Training Scheme, to establish what is called the Mini ITIs, was launched on January 31 this year with great fanfare by the Mulayam Singh government. Till now, 140 madrassas have been given grants under the scheme.

 
 
The shocking part is 140 madrassas have already complied, raising no questions.
 
 
All of them have filled up the long and elaborate form attached to the brochure. Section four of the form, to be signed by an official, translated from Hindi, reads: "This is to state that I have inspected the madrassa and found that no anti-national or terrorist ideology is being preached and the institution is not disrupting the communal peace."

It is an extraordinary certificate. The first time perhaps that some of the worst prejudices about Muslims in general and madrassas in particular have found their way into a government document. For, at its heart, the form is nothing less than an indictment of all Muslim institutions.

Former chief justice of India A.M. Ahmadi is scathing in his criticism: "To treat every madrassa as suspect is as good as saying that every accused is guilty till he proves himself innocent. If the government is extending privileges on the condition of obtaining such a certificate, then it would smack of a bias and would, if challenged, be found to be in violation of Article 14 (equality) and Article 21 (life and livelihood) of the Constitution."

Any reasonable citizen would be amazed by a document that humiliates an entire community. Eminent legal expert and former chairman of the minority commission Dr Tahir Mahmood says: "It is outrageous, humiliating and infuriating. I have never come across any government document like this before. Someone should take the matter to the judiciary and those responsible for framing this should be held accountable."

The real twist in the tale is that it is not a BJP government that wants to ration out a certificate of patriotism to Muslim institutions. It's the minority-friendly Mulayam Singh regime. It was only after Outlook got a copy of the document and sought an explanation from the Uttar Pradesh government that panic buttons were pressed in Lucknow.

Chief minister Mulayam Singh Yadav was quick to respond: "You know me. Do you think I am capable of doing something like this? I am glad you have told me about this.I promise you there will be an inquiry.In a few days we will fix the responsibility and punish them.These forms stand withdrawn immediately. I have issued orders." The next morning the CM called to say that the forms had been physically destroyed and named an official as being responsible.Clearly, the CM was upset at the prospect of angering his Muslim votebank.

State urban affairs minister Azam Khan, Mulayam's most high-profile Muslim leader, told Outlook: "This is a legacy of the BSP government. Some officer appointed by them has quietly inserted this clause. It should have been withdrawn. You must give some room for human mistakes." Yet, Azam Khan said he knew about the clause but was waiting till "new provisions" were made to officially withdraw it."I think it would be a matter of great humiliation for any Muslim institution to apply under such terms".

Yet, the shocking part is that 140 madrassas have actually done so. Hamidullah Bhat, director, minority welfare, first tried to defend the clause. "I don't see anything objectionable in this. There have been no complaints of madrassas being turned down or harassed." But once the instructions came from the chief minister's office, the department for minority welfare and the Waqf tried to do some quick damage control. State Waqf board secretary Mohammad Mustafa pointed out that he had only taken charge in May this year while the forms had been cleared by his predecessor M. Iftikharuddin, a BSP appointee. He also made a pertinent point: "What amazes me is that none of the madrassas complained or brought this to my attention."

Are madrassas so used to being treated as suspect that they found nothing out of the ordinary when prejudices were legitimised in a government form? Were they so desperate to get the grant that they were willing to put up with any humiliation? If so, it is another pointer to the pathetic situation of Muslims and their institutions. After all, the recent census data and several independent surveys have found Muslims and neo-Buddhists to be the most educationally and economically backward communities in the country.

Madrassas, which literally means schools, are usually supported by the community—offering free education to the poorer sections of Muslims. Some madrassas only teach students the Quran by rote. But there are thousands that provide a more complete education. In Uttar Pradesh itself, there are 1,096 madrassas that are recognised by the government and the Mulayam Singh government recently issued an ordinance that gives the degrees issued by these madrassas the same legal validity as state schools. And in spite of all the rhetoric against madrassas, there has never been any evidence that they produce terrorists. On the contrary, they provide a service to a community that has to largely fend for itself.

Filed In:
Authors: Saba Naqvi
Tags: Education
Section: Society
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Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Oct 16, 2004 12:00 AM
1
Lalit, where are you?
Mohib Uddin Ahmad
Incheon, South Korea
Oct 16, 2004 12:00 AM
2
Saba Naqvi Bhaumik simpers in outrage:

“Imagine a school that has to first acquire a certificate from the state saying 'it is not promoting anti-national sentiments, is not a den for terrorism and is not perpetuating communalism.”

Saba, you are putting up a wrong conjecture. You should be asking us to imagine this:

“Imagine a school that teaches its kids first about Jihad and later if ever about the alphabets; imagine a school that teaches that Palestinians committing suicide bombings in tourist resorts of Israel were martyrs and Bin laden is fighting for the pride of Islam.”

Oh no wait! Why should you even ask us to imagine something that is happening in reality across Madrasas in Pakistan and Afghanistan. It is common knowledge that Saudi Arabia has been spending millions of dollars in promoting its own brand of Islam through Madrasas in not only those two countries but indeed through much of Europe and even in the US. Recently, many mullahs teaching in various mosques and Madrassas have been arrested in Europe and in the US, preaching hatred and violence.

What is the guarantee that the same has not been happening across Madrasas in India? Muslims the world over have not shown to be a zealous guardians of their faith – they have allowed their faith to be hijacked by extremists while they sat quite or indeed tacitly supported those extremists. It is high time that we start becoming much more vigilant in our own country – we have already been bitten once when Muslims succeeded in dividing our country through sheer numbers and violence. Do we want to be bitten twice?

As for Mulayam claiming
"You know me. Do you think I am capable of doing something like this?”

Oh no Maulana Mulayam we perfectly know that you are not capable of doing anything that will offend the Mullahs – after all they are your vote bank.

So Ms. Bhaumik, you are barking at the wrong tree – Muslims have long lost the right to be presumed innocent till guilty. The world did cut them some slack for quite a long time to see if they were worthy of this right – and they have proved to be totally unworthy of that trust. Country after country after country has learnt it the hard way.
Vikas Chowdhry
Madison, USA
Oct 17, 2004 12:00 AM
3
All children in the whole world should be given
a religious free education, which will enable them to find useful occupations and enable them to live in harmony with their fellow human beings.

I know that my school in Delhi provided me with a good all round education. I would wish the same for all Indian kids. Frankly I dont believe that the madrassah route will help muslim children. So more important then hurt feelings, the real point is to provide modern schooling.

Thats a tough call, because in only a few cases are government schools up to desireable standards.

Now let the hostile attacks begin.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 17, 2004 12:00 AM
4
Muslim children getting educated in religious schools will not give them social interaction with other children.THey should come out and mix with other communities.THose who teach in madarassas should hold professional teaching qualification and not just religious qualification alone.World is learning grammer,science and maths in schools.Religion can be taught as moral science or as an ancillary subject.But its best if religion is taught by parents and leave schools free from religion.
sampathkumar
chennai, India
Oct 17, 2004 12:00 AM
5
Carried away a little perhaps by his Islamist zeal, Bhaumik is barking up the wrong tree. While he managed to work up, in defence his faith, a fine performance that would have done Imam Bukhari proud, Bhaumik failed to ask questions that a two-bit hack should have: why is the secular state funding sectarian "institutions" at all? Why are Hindu taxpayers forced to fund madrassas, even if not to teach Muslim kids the art of wielding a Kalashnikov, at least to impart them knowledge on the finer distinctions between kaffir and momin; between dar-ul-harb and dar-ul-Islam?

It seems to be such a nice job to be a Muslim journo working for a Hindu editor. The editor will naturally want to be "secular", so you have a carte blanche.
Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Oct 17, 2004 12:00 AM
6
great comment raghu.Especially about the carte blanche that these muslim hacks enjoy under traitors like mehta.The english literate muslim
scribes like bhaumik are loyal to their community.While the hindu ones like mehta,jha ,nayar,etc etc are willing to selloout their parent's community real cheap maybe free in return to be called secular,whatever that means
j asgutd
madison, usa
Oct 17, 2004 12:00 AM
7
First it was shaving numbers to make the Muslim growth rate look better - and now this, hilarious line...

"And in spite of all the rhetoric against madrassas, there has never been any evidence that they produce terrorists"

Bhaumik ji - stop synthesizing this sense of victimhood....in stead of squealing bloody murder, at ever perceived indignity - try to bridge the communal gap that you're creating, through some introspection...

- Most Indians who know about the published intelligence reports (in news media) about madrassas in the border districts of UP, WB and Assam - will happily agree with the stipulation for state grants - in stead of trying to disguise such anti-national activities in the name of somke diseased form secularism - think, how the anti-national activities in madrassas can actually be stopped....think why most "good" Indians (irrespective of their faiths) will disagree with you.

- did you think it necessary to protest when Owaisi and MIM in hyderabad leapt to support arrested LeT activists and Muslims subsequently, asked the naxals to "act" aginst the police for arresting LeT activists...missed your protest letter on that issue...interests of terrorists over national interests, once again, I guess.

- also missed your protest letter about "members of a particular community" in North karanataka, who insist on raising the Paki flag every Aug 14 - why is it that the groups protesting always end up being the BJP types, that you senselessly lash out at...of course, I get it - flag-shlag, are communal symbols supported by Hindoo fundoos onlee.

Making up facts, and playing up your victimhood, will not hide the communal nature of much of the Muslim intelligentia of today - unless, your and Islamist friends of both Hindu and Muslim faiths learn to put the interests of the nation above that of anti-national Muslim groups, LeT activists, Kashmiri terrorists, rabid madrassas or Ishrat Jehan - the divide will only get bigger - and you will squeal your way to secular "victimhood".

Stop pointing a finger at everybody else and start with a little introspection.
Arindam Banerji
Sunnyvale, USA
Oct 17, 2004 12:00 AM
8
If Bhaumik and muslims believe that madrassahs are the route for educational and material advancement, then I know one thing. Right or wrong they are the ones who will decide. However
it seems likely that the students leaving these madrassahs will find it hard to get admission to higher educational institutions, and I am prepared to bet,they will remain at the bottom of India's society. However subsequently they will feel indignant when they can not get jobs, and will accuse others of bias .

In comparison with jews who faced pograms, and
extreme discrimination, the muslims performance
is abmyssal. Its not necessary to look at the relative number of nobel prizes won, just look at the position of jews and Hindus in the USA.It
is apparent that Koran reading appeals more to them then normal down to earth studies.

However I have learnt one thing from writeing and reading comments in this website. Some of us make great comments , but we forget that we are debateing with an opposite side which has no sympathy with our views.So why bother.

I think the BJP and Hindus in general must adopt
another winning strategy . Forget the muslims, they are a solid vote bank for the Congress .Just do the right things in public life , from the smallest to the largest . Not seeking for rewards, but because it is right.
Its important that we stop being obsessed with muslims and their problems, and let them to it.

Satyamaya Jyate.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 17, 2004 12:00 AM
9
Only the following would apply to muslims,"every muslim on the street is a pucca rascal unless he proves otherwise!"
vinodbevda
birmingham, uk
Oct 17, 2004 12:00 AM
10
Madrassahs are specialized in producing brains that are 1400 years behind. If Muslims are lagging behind others , then we have to blame ourselves. Pakistan successfully decimated the Hindu and Sikh population there and still they are brimming with hatred for all non-Muslims. We Muslims are hate machines never tired of hating/killing/bombing all others. What did we achieve ?? Nothing but a big zero. madrassahs may preach you to be Arab-worshippers but it won't make you any better. Though we specialized in beheading helpless non-muslims , we are too weak to win any war against any non-muslim countries. If the non-muslims also becomes hate machines like us , we may be simply anihilliated. Muslim intellectuals should eduacate Muslims. In stead they are partying with the Mullahs and Maulanas. These idiots believe in a paradise with so many virgins as their wives and neglect this world. How stupid we are !


May be we continue reciting Quran and keep babling Everything is there in Quran , from Astronomy the beheadology, From Physics to Bilogy, from Arts to Science , from Big Bang to relativity,, SO we don'ty need any other education. All other educations are kafir educations to be abolished. madrassahs jindabad. mulladom jindabad.
ahmed shaikh
mumbai, india
Oct 17, 2004 12:00 AM
11
Risible! Ahmad Shaikh, another Right-wing Hindu masquerading as a Muslim?

How stupid. Try newer strategies to spew your venom!
Tabs
Goettingen, germany
Oct 17, 2004 12:00 AM
12
Tabs,

I must compliment you on your amazing ability to grasp the obvious.

But "hate venom" .. tut tut ...you cant contradict a line of what "Ahmad Shaikh" has said ...

BTW the other day I was reading in some article about the fact that Mohammad knew about Biotechnology ... and what cause the Muslim intelligentsia to hyperventilate .. was three little words somewhere in the Quran - "changing Gods creation" ... Obviously somewhere within those 3 words reside the entire corpus of knowledge of biotechnology ..

Why should Indian taxpayer money be spent for madarsahs ... shouldnt it be spent for Secular schools where Muslims, Hindus, Budhists, or whoever come together to learn science, maths, Indian history, geography ... isnt that going to put Muslims on an equal footing ... itsnt that going to lead to less communalization ...

But saying that probably makes me a "Hindutva fanatic" ... while Saba pleading for a no-holds barred financing for religious schools is a "Secularist" ... Only in India ... only in India ...
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Oct 17, 2004 12:00 AM
13
DHARMAYUDH SINGH: You sound sensible for a change!

Tabs
Goettingen, germany
Oct 17, 2004 12:00 AM
14
Ahmed Shaikh
____________

Brother you are being unfair. 1 billions muslims
believe in the Koran.

I have being reconsidering my views on Islam.
The muslim paradise seems to be a great place to be eventually, although we have no write ups from people who have been there. However I am sure we can trust the mullahs. With their beards
and caps they look so cute.

I wonder about the ladies. Real Sharon Stones and Demi Moores.

And how about the food and drinks. I suppose
red wine is OK. I dont care much for camel milk.

However what I am concerned about are the 5 daily prayers,and the Ramadan. I am not so keen on these. Dharamyudh, you are so canny. Can you figure this out on some interlink whatever.

So RSS friends , maybe we lose one round but gain the next one infinitely more important .

PS Do we get to read Outlook with Bhaumik and Seema . Mistake mistake ,I forgot, Heaven is only for the boys.


lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 17, 2004 12:00 AM
15
Tabs,

Let me share a lil secret with you ... most of the "Hindutva fanatics" here are actually secularists ... but not the Congress multi-theocracy kind of secularism that is in vogue among Indian jounalists or the left wing or the muslim 'liberals'. Let true secularism reign in India ... one suited to Indian conditions ... one that takes the best of the Western Secularism and Eastern Secularism ... one that keeps religion away in some spheres but at the same time allows it in some ... one that knows where to draw the line between atavistic fundamentalism and culture ... and you will see most of the hate melt away. If we move to such a regime, and if the RSS or the VHP were to throw a spanner into the works, you will find most of us, including I think our indomitable Lalit Bagai, slam the RSS or VHP hard.

I'd rather that Indian children read up on Max's ideas rather than Marx's or any other individual ...

(For the uninformed by Max, I mean Max Planck, the German scientist )

Tchuss

Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Oct 17, 2004 12:00 AM
16
Banerjee
________

I would risk giving one USD to every muslim
who has changed his views after reading comments from us Hindu writers.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 18, 2004 12:00 AM
17
This is the most ugly article i have ever seen in outlook.

This is worst form of fundamentalism. I just can't imagine last article they praised purdah system, today they are praising Madarssa system. What are these guys pre-medieval islamists. These pseudo secularists are fuck and nothing else.

They call themselves secularists, shame on these guys. They are openly and shamelessly saying that madarssa education should be funded by the government, what kind of secular system is this.

Saba Naqvi Bhaumik you are the worst person to be the representative of muslims. You are like a devil who kills his own society and community.

I simply cannot believe that you are propogating madarssa education for muslims and then when they dont get proper education and jobs then you say we are behind, there is discrimination and want job reservations.

Worst kind of parasites are people like you who feed into a bad system and keep on using people who are dependent on you.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Oct 18, 2004 12:00 AM
18
Sayeed Patel and Dharamyudh
____________________________

I do not know when, if ever muslims will learn that by attacking a numerically superior enemy one will get a disproportionate amount of punishment. Crudely it means Godhra killing will result in Gujerat. WTC attack will be US invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. Killing of jewish children will mean occupation of the west bank, and a wall between Arabs and Israelis.
I am just weary of explaining this simple logic
in the hope that simple self preservation, if nothing else will convince muslims to stop killing and murdering all over the world.

Gujerat is over , so how about stop the terrorism in Kashmir. Afghanistan is inching the word to a civil society, so for gods sake , stop the Taliban from ruining everything.

Like wise in Iraq, ask your jehadis to give peace a chance.Peace is most important for the Iraqi people, so never mind that the Americans
want it too.

However I have no hope that the killing by muslims will stop. I have no hope that muslims
in general will speak up for peace, and condemn
the terrorists in their midst.No Sir. The muslim jehadists will carry on with their killings and people like Sayeed will keep on talking about Gujerat, and why Mr Madhavan was allowed to
speak to American students.

Frankly DS I have worked with Americans, Germans,
French, Jews , but never have I debated with people like the muslims. A dark membrane seems to have descended on their thinking faculty.

Lastly why dont the christian secularists enter the discussion. After all the war between civilisation is mainly between christians and muslims. We Hindus have just a minor side role.
And lots of our Hindu buddies are firmly with
the muslims.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 18, 2004 12:00 AM
19
To say that hindus have a minor role is an ignorent observation.Rest of the countries would surely take care of muslims as is steadfastly being done here in UK;only indians would suffer due to pseudo secularism and the jaichands among them.As no other country would come to their rescue;since in reality there is none with similar ideology anywhere on the planet,hindus do have a role cut out for them which I do not think they would play with any aplomb!
vinodbevda
birmingham, uk
Oct 18, 2004 12:00 AM
20
I am keen to know why a secular government has to fund madrasas. Socially useful or not, Madrasas are essentially religious and under a secular constitution have no claim to receive any government grant, whatsoever. This retrogade practice has been taken to dizzy heights by the Left Front government of West Bengal and the funding is to the tune Rs.100 Crores.

A point in passing, learning koran by rote can not lead to any socially useful activity.
soumya
Lazaro Cardenas, Mexico
Oct 19, 2004 12:00 AM
21
WEll madrassa education should never be funded by government. It is height of muslim appeasement.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Oct 19, 2004 12:00 AM
22
most of the points in this article are justified. It is inhuman to expect any school to get such a clearance. but why did the author have to spoil it with the last sentence - until then it never occurred to me to check the religion of the writer. i dont see why the community in question should consider itself to have been left to its own devices. there are mainstream schools that are open to all citizens. isnt this more of a voluntary segregation that is then conveniently used as a rally point?
Madhu Narayanan-Patil
Bangalore, India
Oct 19, 2004 12:00 AM
23
Well the points are justified. Definitely nobody and especially a religious institution should not get a no terror certificate. But why should a religious organisation get funding from government. This is really really very very bad.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Oct 20, 2004 12:00 AM
24
The fact is very cleverly hidden that that Madrasa education is unable to qualify students as professionals needed for our growth. These students are just zombies at the beck and call of their of their ulemnas and are used for activities which threaten our national fabric. Any form of Govt. funding should be provided with proper safeguards.
Anand Roop
Gurgaon, INDIA
Oct 20, 2004 12:00 AM
25
I have reread all the comments .

It seems that Hindu readers have asked why muslims kids should study in madrassahs, and in any case why should the government fund them.

The muslims complain about the government
requirement from the madrassahs, that they are not teaching terrorism.This problem will be sorted out.

However it shows , that the so called Hindu fanatics want normal schools for muslims kids, and the educated secular muslims want madrassahs.

So what is the coclusion ??, Who are the real seculars and who the fanatics.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 20, 2004 12:00 AM
26
The real issue here is that Madrassahs, or any religious schooling for that matter, of whatever faith, should not receive any government funding. It is generations of Muslim boys schooled in such a backward environment who have contributed to the statu-quo nature and rigidity if Islam. I can't understand why secular, educated Muslims would want such institutions to continue.

Even as someone who despises the whole Hindutva movement, I have to admit that such schools have undoubtedly been responsible for supporting Muslim fundamentalist schools of thought...not just in India, but also here in the UK.

All religious education should be a private matter and it is precisely the existence of institutions such as these that receive government funding, that makes it so easy for Hindu fanatics to rile the masses...a justifiable complaint used to strengthen a laughable cause. Why make their work any easier?
Rustam Roy
London, UK
Oct 20, 2004 12:00 AM
27
Actually, to the contrary - most of the points and implications of this article are rather fetid and stink of soft Islamism, that many in the Muslim intelligentia like to practice today, under the prophylactic garb of "secularism".

Let us take a look at the facts:
- Pakistanization of madrassas in the border districts of UP, Bihar, WB amd Assam is a problem

- They represent threats to national security - as has been reported by many news articles in the media, quotes from intelligence officials and the like

- That madrassah reform is a high priority, and that they represent threats to our security interests has come from noted communists like WB Chief Minister Buddhadeb - not one known to be a Hindu fanatic

- the fact that charities like Rabita Trust (placed under watch by the US for funding terrorism) do influence large numbers of madrassas in India is well known and has been reported by several Indian security analysts

In this light - Bhaumik's article makes two dark insinuations:

1. "no matter what, the selfish interests of the Muslim community, must come before Indian national and security interests"

- In stead of facing up to the genuine threats to Indian security and national interests that many madrassas represent, Bhaumik chooses subterfuge, as in "in spite of all the rhetoric against madrassas, there has never been any evidence that they produce terrorists".

Deny, deny, deny...never accept responsibility.

2. "we want more than our share of the privileges, but none of the duties" -

First of all, there is no genuine reason for Indian tax-payers to support madrassas...

Second, in stead of suggesting some explicit schemes to tackle the anti-national activities of madrassas in border districts - such as by saying "place strict controls on all madrassas in x,y,z districts" - Bhaumik declares his outrage and demands state funds with no strings attached - once again "no duties, only privileges".

The article's complete lack of introspection only reinforces the divide that exists between those who are secular yet concerned about Indian national interests and those who interpret secularism to only imply the narrow self-interests of a particular community (in other words, the Islamist equivalent of the VHP).

Unfortunately, Bhaumik goes out of his way to prove that he belongs in the latter community.



Arindam Banerji
Sunnyvale, USA
Oct 21, 2004 12:00 AM
28
I should say that BJP is attimes very very correct about its assessment of muslim appeasement in India.

Recently I read the news report of Haj Subsidy for 80000 muslims from air(mind you, not ship) for tax payers was passed by this congress government.

It is sickening and I just cannot understand why BJP cannot launch a coherent attack on such policies of Congress. Is it the same syndrome that is attached with reservation. But here the case is different. Muslims anyways donot vote for BJP so why not bring liberal hindus in there fold and expose farce of secularism completely.

BJP while it was in power should have abolished all these social evils, like madarssa funding, haz subsidy for everybody be he tax payer or no tax payer. Why should a person get benefits or get discriminated based on religion.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Oct 21, 2004 12:00 AM
29
Abhisek,

BJP led NDA Govt didn't Abolish Haj Subsidy. They abolished Subsidy ONLY for those who pay Income Tax, meaning have income more than 1 Lakh/Annum.

It was a very sensible act, but in India's competetive Minority appeasement, what can you expect? Just think the cost involved. Even if half of the Haj pilgrims are Tax payer, it cost the Govt like 125 Crore Rupees.

How Many New Schools could have been opened with this fund? Everybody talks about, primary reason for High-Birth rate for Muslims is: EDUCATION.

You cannot have it both ways. Waste tons of Money on Tax-Paying, finantially able Muslims. And then at the end of each census: Muslims don't have education.
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Oct 21, 2004 12:00 AM
30
Why is it ok for non-tax paying muslims to get haz subsidy. Is haz more important than education. The amount of money that would have been given for haz subsidy could be used to give the same guys children some very good education and not madarssa education

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Oct 21, 2004 12:00 AM
31
Abhishek,

Welcome to World of Indian "secularism" ! In fact, If I may add: its NOT fault of indian Muslims.

They never accepted "secularism". The tallest Modern Islamic Thinker Allama Iqbal wrote extensively, on why separation of "state" and "religion" is NOT possible in Islamic world-view.

Even Gandhi, father of the Nation had a distinct view on separation of state & religion ! He said: separation is not possible. These probalems are caused NOT by Gandhi, Nehru. But by Indira Gandhi, and Indian Left, who has reduced Indian Philosophy, "dharma" to Cateism, and Untouchability. They don't understand that difference in concept of "religion" in West and in India.

Did you notice Advani's remark on Dr. Radhakrishnan, when there was a proposal to stop airing devotional Songs in All India Radio? Dr. radhakrishnan shot back..Put his foot down..

Its a Long Story, my friend. First we have to understand what Indian philosophy is, by reading Radhakrishnan's 2 Volumns :History of Indian Philosophy", Swami Vivekananda, Sri Aurobindo...Then we can be pround Hindus. We then can break this Caste Barrier and bring "lower castes" into mainstream.

All modern Indian Thinker from Tagore, Aurobindo, Tilak, Radhakrishnan..everybody spoke about this same thing. We now need to act. Unfortunately, I don't see any youth Win of any political parties (like DYFI of CPM) doing it. Its donw by RSS, vanavasi kalyan Samiti, and ramkrishna Mission.....

Its a Long battle. But we are slowly but surely progressing ! Jai Hind..
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Oct 21, 2004 12:00 AM
32
Well I understand Indian pervert form of secularism. All these secular parties if they are actually quizzed on the properties of secularism I am definite they will fail. They dont have a sense of understanding about this issue.

Them dont understand dharma and mix it with western religion. Especially the communists who have no religion are an oxymoron in a country like India. For these people only thing that is good is dry equality, proletarianism and gun power. These communists have to live in a democracy and that is there bad luck, otherwise this country would have become something like Stalin's land.

Well but what I am most disappointed with is RSS and not communists or Congress. We know that that is there way of thinking. I have been following RSS way of thinking and unfortunately they have kind of a paranoid approach to hinduism. They see always as if hinduism is under attack and are always on the defensive, and the worst thing is that they do quiet a lot of muslim bashing also(I am using a secularists word), but I think it is true. I really doubt that RSS works for anything good for muslim people.

I believe that if muslim fundamentalism is attacked vigorously with an equivalent solution to the social problem in muslim community(like the question of women, UCC, AIMPLB) it can work(though it is a very tough task, muslims simply live in a completely different world), but then what is the other solution. Either muslim fundamentalists are allowed to run away with the agenda as they are doing right now.

I think that BJP and RSS should attack fundamentalist muslims with no compromise. No electoral thing should come in between. They should expose all the hypocrisy involved and keep on hammering the point. As now they are out of power so they can talk more freely about it without actually taking lot of complex political equation in India. Along with this they should expose the itellectual terrorism of Communists at all levels. There completely out of place world view(which I hate most, even more than religious fundamentalism). I believe that comminists have ended up at the wrong side of the history and will go down in some years.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Oct 21, 2004 12:00 AM
33
Dharamyudh, Vikas and others.
_____________________________

An interesting article by Mr Razi Azmi about
madrassah education is published today in Daily Times, Pakistan.

Bhaumik should read this to. Incidentally is Bhaumik a Mr or Ms. Could Mr Mehta inform us. Thanks.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 21, 2004 12:00 AM
34
Bhaumiks name is Saba .. a female name
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Oct 22, 2004 12:00 AM
35
If the GoI ensured access to free primary education in a standard school for all children that would do more to move children from madrasas to standard schools than anything else.

Madrasas are cheap/free education - with perhaps free room and board thrown in for some cases. That's why they are chosen by the poor - I've never heard of a rich person sending their kid to a madrasa.

Also - what galls in the double standard. An assumption that madrasas in India are anti-national, until proved otherwise, and an assumption that other types of schools (shishu mandirs, vanvasi kalyan ashrams, etc.) are automatically patriotic and nationalistic, and don't teach hatred against any group of people in India.

The fact is, despite 'dark comments' etc. from various sources, the NDA Govt never came out and backed up its view on madrasas being sources of jihad with specifics like: THIS madrasa, THIS was tought, on THIS day, with THESE consequences. Articles in the press have always been very vague and non-specific. The anti-minority slant of kalyan ashrams is well documented, on the other hand, and the role of their proteges in the Gujarat pogrom also well known. But somehow that is not worth looking into.
Zafar
Sydney, Australia
Oct 22, 2004 12:00 AM
36
Zafar,

I have stated this earlier in one of my postings but would repeat it yet again for your benefit. Muslims have lost the right to be presumed innocent till guilty.

I remember there was an article a few weeks ago from a leading intellectual in Palestine. The title of that article was “We are all Osama Bin Laden.” Though I did not read the article myself I read some excerpts in I believe New York Times. Gist of that article was that Muslim clerics, who are out to issue fatwas to all and sundry have never come out and issued a fatwa against Bin Laden and his cohorts. No leading Muslim leader has publicly and vocally said that aiding and abetting Bin Laden is a crime against Islam. On the contrary- Muslims the world over have tacitly supported people like him.

Please, do not even compare the Madrasas to any other religious organization’s schools – because it is not the Hindus, Catholics or Jews who are strapping bombs to their backs and blowing everything up.

Again, the world has had enough- the ball is squarely in your court.
Vikas Chowdhry
Madison, USA
Oct 22, 2004 12:00 AM
37
Here nobody is saying that shishu mandirs are good things. We oppose "guilty till proven innocent" thing. But the point is why should government fund madarssa education. West Bengal government has a funding of around 10's of crores for madarssas, if this money can be used to secular schools then it is the best thing.

Why should Saba Bhaumik come out with an article like this instead of asking to stop funding for madarssas. She infact is arguing in favour of madarssa education. Strange.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Oct 22, 2004 12:00 AM
38
[The fact is, despite 'dark comments' etc. from various sources, the NDA Govt never came out and backed up its view on madrasas being sources of jihad with specifics like: THIS madrasa, THIS was tought, on THIS day, with THESE consequences. Articles in the press have always been very vague and non-specific. The anti-minority slant of kalyan ashrams is well documented, on the other hand, and the role of their proteges in the Gujarat pogrom also well known. But somehow that is not worth looking into]

Equivocation is the sign of the soft Islamist - the fact is that most every newspaper attacked the IDRF contributions - especially the soft islamists - none ever criticzed the funds from an enemy state coming thru the Rabita Trust. If this is not a double standard I do not know what is.

I've seen the curriculum of the Kalyan Ashrams - yes, it is quite Hindu in certain respects - but there is nothing anti-minority in them - do certainly do not preach terrorism.

On the other hand madrassas in border districts (in border districts) have been a problem for quite a while - no official I have ever met denies this. They do preach jihad and secessionism and have been used to carry out violence against India.

It is perfectly OK to assume - all religious schools (irrespective of religion) in border districts suspect and monitor their lessons and activities.

Whatever we do let us remember that, In kashmir we have had incessant Islamization resulting in statistically visible ethnic cleansing - in the 6 border districts of Assam, we have had ethnic cleansing of Indians - we now have predominantly Bangladeshi populace in them - these people are now asking for sovereignity and the madrassa are a source of terrorist money (according to the Assam Tribune) - these border areas are dangerous and must be treated differently - they form avenues of attacking Indian soverignity and intregrity. This is increasingly true for the border areas of UP and Bihar.

Equating Islamic terrorism and Hindu fundamentalism does not work - the numbers will always indicate that this is like comparing a bullet wound in the head with a scrape on the knee.
Arindam Banerji
Sunnyvale, USA
Oct 22, 2004 12:00 AM
39
Zafar
_____

Raza Azmi has written on madrassah education in Pakistan oct 21, in Daily Times.

Meanwhile do you support madrassah education ,and secondly do you think the state should fund them. Just as a diversion do you believe that the GOI should subsidise the Haj.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 22, 2004 12:00 AM
40
Mr Zafar,

Please respond to the question that whether madarssa education should be funded by the government. And should there be haz subsidy. Give an answer in yes or no. Dont go into diversions of shishu mandir or so. They are not the issue we are discussing.

Give me your opinion on Uniform Civil Code, on triple talaq, on Muslim Personal laws and then we can discuss it further.

I completely condemn organizations like RSS,VHP they are bad really bad. Do you condemn madarssas, do you condemn AIMPLB, do you condemn religious teaching from Quran which are not correct. Do you want to change Quran and are ready to reject some parts of it, which do not stand the test of time.

Let me tell you one thing. I have read Geeta and it is a good book. But I donot take each and every word of geeta and implement it in my life. Infact I am very critical of Geeta in several places. Do you have the same spirit about Quran. If you have then we can discuss lots of things.

I believe that Islam has to comeout of this self imposed intellectual restraint on itself. It has to question the fundamentals and keep changing. Otherwise you will always find people like me harassing and questioning you.

Become secular.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Oct 22, 2004 12:00 AM
41
i think outlook is crossing its limits. i see no harm in this setup. only if you cnstantly say, it is humiliation, it will sound like one. it does not suit the best news magazine in india.
nits
nashville, USA
Oct 22, 2004 12:00 AM
42
Zafar Saheb,

everybody knows that Madarsas are sources of cheap education. The problem is the type of education that is delivered in them. Why should a religous school preach hatred for non-muslims (that is what Quran is all about), and why the hell indian taxpayers are expected to provide milk to snake of treason ?



Madrasas are cheap/free education - with perhaps free room and board thrown in for some cases.
sanjeev
Delhi, India
Oct 22, 2004 12:00 AM
43
Well about cheap education of madarssa. Well I dont know what kind of education do they give. I presume Urdu and maybe hindi(i am doubtful), do they teach English, mathematics, sciences, history and social studies.

I have lot of friends from RSS schools and I will give credit to RSS school, they critisise RSS and donot completely agree with there worldview.

This is a complement to RSS schools where freedom or thought and expression is atleast given importance. The freedom to disagree honestly is also given. Though definitely my friends say that there used to be hooligans and some people used to become kind of fundamentalist(which is bad), but then there are decent good people also coming out of these schools getting into medicine, engineering, accountancy.

I want to see madarssa kids also doing the same. There will be fundamentalists in madarssas, you cannot help it, but how many and what is there way of thinking is the question.

I have met madarssa students also and they live in a very narrow world. No complete knowledge of Indian history and distorted view of basic things like women's rights, jurisprudence and equality.

I am questioning the methods of teaching in madarssas and also there subjects. We are not talking about terrorism over here, which i presume is very less in indian madarssas, becuase there is no reason for that. But fundamentalism is ripe in indian madarssas and that should be removed once and for all.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Oct 22, 2004 12:00 AM
44
The question which should be asked is why do Muslim need Madrassa when we have free education for everyone.We have seen the product of Madrassas in pakistan. How does a child with only knowldge of Holy book can understand the todays world.Yes they must learn Holy Quran but the education shud be only in educational institutes.This way we are keeping the scoeity in seperate sections and than we hear cry from Muslim brothern that they are being segregated.Has any of these leaders thought about their children that they should be given proper modern education. What about scinece,mathematics etc.Can these children even read the text of holy book or just remember by heart. I know people who can recite the Holy Koran but cannot read a word.
The Muslim leaders of the community are not thinking of the welfare of their brothern but only of their leadership.If you realy believe in secularism why are making ghettoes for yoru community.No wonder there is so much misunderstanding betweem our communities.These children need proper education. Madrassa should only be allowed to taech religion once a week and all children should be in public schools.
If only GOI had passed the Uniform Code we may not have to discuss this topic.Look at France they have banned all religious symbols from class room even our Sikh bothern children have been expelled. We have been too foolish even after 57 years of freedom not having passed Uniform Code so everyone can be treated equal.
Why cant the leaders of Muslim community teach and preach to their followers to send their children to public school so we can feel as one nation.Times are changing but this community wants to be left behind. Ask the families in India whoes children have gone to public educations and what a progress they have made.
Shadi Katyal
Marietta. Ga.., USA
Oct 22, 2004 12:00 AM
45
Hi Shadi,

Interesting comments.

What is the situation of muslims in USA. Do you have state funded madrassahs, Haj subsidy and
separate laws for mulims.

How are relation between muslims and Americans.

Would appreciate your comments
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 23, 2004 12:00 AM
46
Lets take one by One of Zafar's Comments.

This refrers to Zafar's remark "the NDA Govt never came out and backed up its view on madrasas being sources of jihad with specifics like: THIS madrasa, THIS was tought, on THIS day, with THESE consequences. Articles in the press have always been very vague and non-specific.."

100s of Example are available. Lets take some of those:

(a) Zafar is falsely trying to tie NDA with this image of Madrassas. Infact, the worst role played by Madrassas resulted in current turmoil of Jammu & Kashmir. Its a very well documented one, and most of those were done during 1971-1989 period, when NDA was NOT in the Radar. It was failure of Indian State, and betrayal of Indian Muslims which cause the Kashmir problem what we see now.

(b) Praveen Swami (of the Hindu) has clearly established Islamic terrorism in Maharashtra is NOT related with Ayodhya, in fact much older origin. It dates back to late 70s. Much of those activities are financed through Foreign Muslim countries, and channelled through madrassas.

(c) A Moderate Communist like Buddha Bhattacharya, CM of West Bengal is on record that Madrassas are creating unrest in the bordering districts of West Bengal. UP alone has MORE Madrassa than whole of Pakistan. Its directly linked with worst socio-economic indicator of UP Muslims and whopping 40% of above Population growth rate.
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Oct 23, 2004 12:00 AM
47
Dear Sir

1.If Muslims are anti terror ,why are you sabotaging anti-terror efforts like regulating the madrassa system ?

2.The claim that that madrassas dont produce terrorists is absurd . Where do you think the Taliban graduated from ? Yale Oxford IIM IIT ??

3. If you are taught daily there is an us muslims and them non-believers arent you creating a division in society ? How secular is this ?

A respected journal such as The Outlook and its journalists have a role in India in highlighting social,religious and political issues. In doing so it must take care it does not become a vehicle for propaganda.

Regards
Prithviraj
Sydney, Australia
Oct 23, 2004 12:00 AM
48
Re Godhra

Why did Zafar bring this up ? This is after centuries of genocide by Muslims of Hindus .Has anyone ever heard a muslim apologise for this genocide ?

I can also add the ethnic cleansing of Hindus from Bangladesh ,Pakistan.

Advani apologised to the Muslims for Godhra . If the Muslims are sincere ,why dont they apologise for terrorism ,jihadism ,fundamentalism and the genocide of Hindus ? Why dont they give us back our temples ?

Heres a reason perhaps its some of that madrassa education that teaches the superiority of Islam !

Given this context it is hardly a surprise that you are attempting to sabotage anti-terror efforts by slandering them !

Prithviraj
Sydney, Australia
Oct 23, 2004 12:00 AM
49
Questions have been raised as to whether madrassahs are the right places to educate young muslim minds. I do not think that they are.

However the muslim readers have not said much .
Does this mean that they support madrassahs
vs secular schools. Further more in view of
the educational backwardness of the muslims,
would they wish that the Haj subsidy be used
to educate muslim women, or provide them help to become independent entrepeneurs. Any comments.

After this issue is settled how about a discussion about a report from England that 4000
muslims there have 4 wives.This would certainly
put the cat amongst the pidgeons. So we can again get some real discussions, fire and fury.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 23, 2004 12:00 AM
50
Lalit:

"After this issue is settled how about a discussion about a report from England that 4000
muslims there have 4 wives.This would certainly
put the cat amongst the pidgeons."

Source of this report?
Tabs
Goettingen, germany
Oct 23, 2004 12:00 AM
51
Tabs
____

I read about this in the Hindusthan Times october 21st or 22nd.

Meanwhile several muslim readers have defended the practice. You can read their comments today
under " readers views "

Islam permits 4 wives, and the prophet had even more then 4, besides several concubines and female slaves. How about in Germany. Can and do muslims have 4 wives also in Germany.??

Anyway the British are much more understanding of the needs of muslim men.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 23, 2004 12:00 AM
52
Lalit:

Is there any law banning multiple girl-friends in any European country?
Tabs
Goettingen, germany
Oct 23, 2004 12:00 AM
53
US, UK, France everybody reacted with strict rules after 9/11 and are trying to cleanse their systems! Madrassas are the training grounds for terrorists and they are used as a veil to hide anti-national activities in the background in most of the countries where these madrassas exist.

National security should be the biggest concern of any government. If Indian government thinks that these madrassas can create potential problems, then let the security agencies do their job. Don't interfere in the name of 'freedom' and 'rights'! Freedom and rights would come once you are secured and can live a long life! To hell with freedom if you would die tomorrow! Please shun this hypocrisy. Because as soon as a bomb explodes in your backyard, you will be the ones who would shout at the government that the government didn't do enough to take care of the interest of your community.
Ritesh Toshniwal
Singapore, Singapore
Oct 23, 2004 12:00 AM
54
Margaret Hassan, a British woman married to an Iraqi, who has worked in Iraq for over 30 years with charity organizations was captured and was threatened to be beheaded.

Yet, we do not see any mass protests in the streets of Baghdad, in the by lanes of Jama Masjid in Delhi, in the mosques of Avadh, in the streets of Karachi, on the roads in Indonesia and Islamabad. We would be having riots on the street if any person of consequence would have uttered a single word against Quoran (Remember Satanic Verses?).

We do not see any Mullahs issuing fatwas against people who commit these kinds of heinous acts – the ones who come out of their snake pits at every given opportunity to issue fatwas against the western countries.

We do not see Arundhati Roys and Arun Gandhi howling like they did at the so called genocide in Gujrat.

Need I say more or can you read between the lines?
Vikas Chowdhry
Madison, USA
Oct 23, 2004 12:00 AM
55
Tabs
______

No a man can have multi girl friends.
So I suppose its OK if a man has multi wives
why just 4.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 23, 2004 12:00 AM
56
Well recently I read a book "The trouble with Islam" by Irshad Manji. Though I thought that there was some partisan outlook in her, or maybe she was trying to sell her book, but she is dead accurate about her assessment of madarssas. When in a country like Canada these mullahs can have such mind numbing madarssas, i sincerely fear the kind of hatred that madarssas in India can generate. I fear the kind of superiority complex these places can generate and which has and will further lead to problems of large scale.

Madarssas are a sign where it shows that muslims are not willing to live in a peaceful secular society. These scourch on the face of earth should be removed or regulated properly so that modern subjects are taught, otherwise we in india are going to see lot of trouble due to these madarssas.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Oct 23, 2004 12:00 AM
57
Lalit,
We have uniform Code thus only one wife at a time.Few places have Madrassas now but children after first few years must go to public schools.
There are areas here like Houston Texas, New York and Michigan where there are more muslim population than over all. So far things are quite.But you also have a Black Muslim Group called Nation of Islam which id quite diffrent in many ways than Islam we know in our countries or Middle East.There have not been any Fatwas given by any Mualvi here as they will not be tolarated. The Uniform Code is strictly enforced. One law for all.
Shadi Katyal
Marietta. Ga.., USA
Oct 23, 2004 12:00 AM
58
Around 4000 Muslim are practising Polygamy even in England, is a Associated Press report (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apeurope_s tory.asp?category=1103&slug=Britain%20Polygamy)
No Gap.

Its stunning to see TABS, an Educated Muslim living in Germany equating this with Girl Friends !

Polygamy does contribute to unequal treatment of Men-Women. It will lead to wives without income, pension, property and welfare rights when this Drama (marriage) breaks down. Where as Girl-friend has no legal basis.

Why I am talking all these? Does Muslims, even educated ones, supported Shah Banu, the poor lady's rights of Alimony.

It should be clear by now: Muslims, even Educated folks are not interested in equal treatment of men-women and their equal rights. They would live in a "secular" Nation States, where its nation's duty to enforce equal rights. They will go to the English medium Shools, but would support madrassas for Poor Muslims. Events after Salmon Rushdie affair in britain are testimony to that.

At the end of the day: they will cry that Muslims are backward in India in economic, education-wise. But wouldn't accept remedy. Meanwhile would breed to fill out the land. hehe...
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Oct 24, 2004 12:00 AM
59
I will sum up the reactions to this article,
which has aroused so much interest.

Children studying in Madrassahs will largely be taught Islamic religion, and more important that
obedience to Islam is unquestioning and oligatory. Along with this means practice of the rituals.

aaa the five daily prayers.
bbb the friday prayers in a mosque with other muslims.
ccc Observance of Ramadan, a pilgrimage to Mecca

Even in cultural matters, the muslims have adopted a different dress, and appearance .
After all this ,the muslim child will think and feel that he has a special religion and belief
and obviously he will not be able to relate
with other faiths. On the other hand he could
become a willing tool for the many fundamentalist
mullahs and Imams, and this is a fact and not just a theory.

On the other hand students who go to the modern secular schools will get a quite different type of education. They will be taught modern languages-especially English-and many useful subjects such as science and maths. More important they will be taught to think independently, and explore the frontiers of knowledge. They are ones who will write books,
do research in various fields, and become generally citizens of the world. Even advanced nations will welcome them, and they will be
feared and envied for their talents.They will have a great advantage over the student from the
madrassahs.

In conclusion the Islamic world is represented by the madrassahs, where obedience and not dissent, following tradition and not exploration
of the frontiers of knowledge are the major features .

The secular world is represented by the modern schools, where free thinking and pursuit of knowledge are the main themes.

The two school systems represent muslims and the modernists who are in conflict today.
No compromise seems likely, and the only question is who will win and who will lose in the end.

In the unequal struggle the muslims involved have used the most extreme measures, latest being the kidnapping of Margaret Hasan. In their calculations it seems that they are counting on the forbearance of their opponents to not to use their full might against them . This could prove to be a fateful error.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 24, 2004 12:00 AM
60
Abhishek Drolia,

Like you, I too am confounded by BJP policy towards Muslims, who NEVER vote for them. NEVER EVER. Whatever BJP may do. In fact, Muslims vote as vote-bank under specific instructions of their Mullahs and MAulvis to make sure that BJP-SS candidates are defeated, no matter who wins.

On the other hand, they (BJP) are so apathetic to the Hindu cause and that's why they seem to be falling between the stools.

But then, would somebody enlighten me if BJP is that stupid that it does'nt understand this simple fact?

Help me somebody!
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 24, 2004 12:00 AM
61
Tanmoy Ghosh and Abhishek Drolia,

Who gave you the idea that for Muslims, education should be more important than Hajj?

And yes, Muslims have the divine right to complain of injustice if they are denied Hajj or MAdarsa education for they have the divine right to eat their cake and have it too- courtesy the minority appeasement policy of the successive Indian govts.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 24, 2004 12:00 AM
62
Do this...
1. Take a stack of needles and drop it on a table
2. You will see randomness. But yet uniqueness. Not two needles will try to be aligned in the same direction.
3. Now place three magnets amidst the stack of needles. Label them "hindu" "muslim" and "christianity"

See what happens. One might say the magnets helps in groupin and bonding of certain population of needles. But the truth this bonding aligns it against the set of needles attracted by another magnet!!!!!!!!!!

In this era of technology and science....do we need madrassas
Natraj
Norman, USA
Oct 24, 2004 12:00 AM
63
Ya i think that BJP understands that muslims will not vote fr them, whatever come. They did get out of there way and deluded themselves to think that muslims will vote for them for development, but that is not the case. They will not.

BJP should take muslims(fundamentalists) out of equation. Work in the middle ground. Press all muslim fundamentalist issues and create awareness about the issue. They should not be muslim bashing like attacking muslims in general but all fundamentalist issues like UCC, madarssas, education, triple talaq and all such islamic issues.

I think that BJP cannot take the hindu cause, becuase there is no hindu cause, or there is no support for hindu cause. I have firmly come to the conclusion that in India especially related to hinduism there cannot be a hindu vote. It is a quagmire. The more you run after it the more trouble you will face.

If BJP runs towards hindutva it is going to give the middle ground to Congress and the grand old party will come back with grand vigour. I sincerely think that BJP should dump hard hindutva and attack muslim fundamentalism and work for development and prosperity. Take the right wing position and vigarously ask for people's rights and reforms and liberation.

This is going to attract the middle class towards them.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Oct 25, 2004 12:00 AM
64
Folks..With due respect to everybody, let me ask: Why are we discussing all these? Did a moderate, inclusive person like Rabindra Nath Tagore was successful in bringing Muslims during First partition of Bengal in 1905? Nope. Even Tagore failed. What Chance Sonia or Congress has today? Only last week, it was centenary of Partition of Bengal: 16th October, 1905. Tagore later spoke to Sajani Kanta Das, another Famous Bengali Poet, and told this: I (Tagore) was tying Rakhi (Raksha Bandhan) as a Protest against Bengal Partition..to everybody whoever came infront of me. Even to British Soldiers, Police officers, Constables. Then suddenly one Police Constable told me: Sir, please don't tie Rakhi in my Hand, I am a Muslim.

If Tagore cannot do, do we have any chance today? Read this very wel-written Article. Its from Anandabazar. The best Bengali daily. If you cannot read Bengali, I would request you grab a Bengali friend, and command him to Translate this article in English..It has Tons..and Tons of Information....

http://www.anandabazar.com/ archive/1041016/16edit3.htm

Muslims don't accept secularism, or even nationalism due to many reasons. Its true in India as anywhere else. What we have in India is: State Sponsored "Islam". Meanwhile schisoms are becoming onto front everyday..be it Universal Civil Code, Equal rights, or Madrassas. When you talk about a Uniform Civil Code, invariably "secularists"/"islamists" would say: Its NOT possible in Indian, because there are 7 different types of Indian marriage. Give us a Break..Nobody is saying Indian constitution is going to dictate which way one would marry. Do whatever you want. But give equal rights to your Sopuse, and register it to the state Marriage Boards.

Its impossibility of these arguments which are to blame for the current mess of India. Indian Left hasn't learn anything, or they are very slow in learning.

However, its dawning very slowly to Indian Left (CPM particularly). Yesterday, Anil Biswas, head of West Bengal CPM commented that Bangladeshi Infiltritaion is a big problem for the state of West Bengal, and they are working with the Center on this. This isa huge change, if you consider how Jyoti basu commented on Bangladeshi infiltration some 10 years back. Jyoti Basu was asked in a news conference on this infiltration issue. he looked below his chair, and said: I don't see any bangladeshis here !

Meanwhile, brace for further turmoil. Now ULFA (of Assam) is helping Banglesh/Pakistan creating a "Brihat Bangladesh" (Greater Bangladesh). Read from this article of Sultan Shahin , a New Delhi based commentetor in Asia Times. (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/FJ23Df02. html). No Gap.

Arun Shourie also commented in the pages of Indian Express, quoting ex West bengal Governor, T. V. Rajeshawar. Incidentally, mr. rajeshawar is now UP's Governor appointed by Congress. (http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?conte nt_id=51419). No Gap..
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Oct 25, 2004 12:00 AM
65
"..because there are 7 different types of Indian marriage.." Should be read as "because there are 7 different types of Indian HINDU marriage".

Anyway, the crux of the argument is: Congress Leadership, Communists are trying to hide these questions under carpet. Hindus are inclusive because of their faith. A Great Inclusiveness was tried by Tagore and others during First Partition of Bengal in 1905, which was utterly a failure. Demand for Pakistan, a separate Homeland didn't start in West Punjab. It was started by Bengali Muslims who established Muslim League in 1905 in Dhaka.

What more inclusiveness can be expected other than what Tagore himself tried. Its the failure of Congress/communists to bring Muslims into national "secular" mainstream which is causing this problem. Punching onto RSS based on wrong facts are a strategy employed by Cong/Communists, which will NOT solve this problem.

Take example of West Bengal, where CPM's grip is total and unparallelled. There is NO RSS in West Bengal. Then why Muslim Population growth is always higher than Hindus in any socio-economic Class, in any district. Why then Bordering Districts are gradually becoming Muslim majority. Why 1000s of Madrassas are proliferating? Why Govt is spending 300Cr Annyanny on madrassas? Why Muslims still have less than 4% Govt Job, even being 25% of Population?

So many Whys don't have any answer.
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Oct 25, 2004 12:00 AM
66
I truly feel that this west bengal and assam issue is a very big security threat if not treated properly and first of all acknowledged outright. It is going to create a muslim seperatist movement in that part of the country just as it created a muslim separatist movement in kashmir. Purist will say that dont make kashmir a religious issue. But I am not able to understand that if it is not a religious issue than what is it.

It is not about rights of kashmiris. It is about the feelings of those muslims in kashmir that they cannot live in a secular india.

My pointed question is that why we dont have problems in Jammu(hindu dominated) and ladakh(buddhist dominated), why only the valley is facing problems. Why only seperatist tendencies are prevalent in Kashmir valley and not Jammu and Ladakh. Jammu and Ladakh have faced similar degree of political alienation than others have, but still there is no acknowlegment of the problem. Why is that that kashmir valley people only want freedom and not people from Jammu. Is there an answer to this phenomenon.

I have come to firm conclusion that muslim majority region is a security threat to india. Muslim majority region has a tendency to become islamic and secede from indian nationhood. Partition is a live example of this phenomenon. No muslim majority district also came to secular india. They all went to pakistan.

When will this bluff be called. When will it be acknowledged that muslims dont have a tendency to live in a secular country. They always want an islamic rule whereever they live.

In India we have a regulated islamic system for muslims inside the framework of so called secular country. All shariah laws are applied to muslims, though it is not actually the shariah laws also it is the mohammadan act brought by britishers to seperate two largest community in pre-partition india on the basis of religion.

The travesty is that today also that act is valid and keeps seperating two largest community in india.

About 7 types of marriages. Well I think there are even more types of marriages, with each community celebrating the function in its own way. But that does not mean they donot come under Indian Civil Code(as what happened in shah bano case). The divorce laws are same for everybody and women rights is protected under constitution of India. Why is this not there for muslims in india. Becuase they want to live in a regulated(though diluted) islamic laws, not secular laws in the country. BJP inorder to gain support in majority of hindus should attack all these issues. They will definitely get support


Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Oct 25, 2004 12:00 AM
67
Further about Assam and Bengal. Well these communists will have hard time fighting fundamentalist islam once it props its ugly head. Communists will become a victim of there own agenda.

Recently I read a report on ULFA joining the Islamic terrorist council, and with several madarssas in and around bengal who is going to stop a fundamentalist, hardline islam to come out in this region. Electoral politics is in favour or Congress/ communists in this region and they will not take up the issue.

When this problem will become very big and cannot be controlled except by force then they will say we did mistakes. The same way they say about Kashmir, that we did lot of political mistakes in kashmir, but still today they dont want to get the remedy. If Article 356 was not imposed and people from other part of the country were allowed to take up property in kashmir this problem of seperatism would have been stopped way before. Kashmir was silent from 1948 till 1989. 40 years is a very very long time for any of these seperatist movement to not occur.

Similar thing is going to happen in Bengal and Assam and adjoining areas. A combination of islamic movement and terrorist activities will start first in Assam where situation are ripe for this and then can spread to siliguri area where demands for islamic laws or greater representation of people's so called aspirations will be asked by terrorist, militant or other activities.

Then these communists will face severe problem. The biggest thing is that in a democratic setup once the demography is tilted you cannot do anything, becuase any party opposing it will not win it so radical fundamentalist parties will come to power(like mujib ur rehman's party in bengaladesh) and so you will have to concede some or the other thing in that region. And you cannot impose autocratic rule it will simply not work becuase those people will want islamic rule only just like kashmir, where autocratic rule did not work.

My single point is that once demography is tilted it is just a matter of time before greater islamic laws and greater appreciation of people aspiration kind of demand start coming from those states. After that these islamists will dump communist bring fundamentalist muslim parties in power and start the bargaining game in the least and terrorist activities in the worst.

The only way to nip this thing in the bud(as right now it can easily be done, if communists and congress acknowledge the problem) is to stop madarssa funding put strict regulation on illegal immigration, all muslim appeasement policies should be stopped. Make muslims maybe more secular in there outlook and stop the demographic shift subtely(because force again will not work in india) Otherwise that region can become a major security headache in coming decades aur hum sub haath malte reh jayenge. Who waisa ho jayega ki na ugalte bane na nigalte bane the same thing as kashmir.

Please dont under estimate bangladesh. It has come out of the same mentality as pakistan and truly believes in a islamic nation.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Oct 25, 2004 12:00 AM
68
Abhisekh wrote: "About 7 types of marriages. Well I think there are even more types of marriages, with each community celebrating the function in its own way. But that does not mean they donot come under Indian Civil Code..."

Yes, what you wrote is correct assessment. But incredibly, this faulty logic is raised by Secularists/Islamists when they oppose Unform Civil Code. Even a Educated person, Country's one of the Best Legal Brain, Somnath Chatterjee (Current Speaker of Lok Sabha from CPM), asked this question last year, when Supreme Court again pitched for Uniform Civil Code. Somnath Chatterjee asked: So will a Muslim now marry by chanting Vedic Matra !

Nobody asked Muslims/Hindus to follow a Single system of Marriage. What is required is: Follow any method you choose. But Give rights to your Wife, register the marriage in the State department. Nothing more, nothing less..

But like in Love, everything is fair in India's Election ..Any logic, or lack of Logic. For your information: Even a person like Amartya Sen supports Uniform Civil Code.
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Oct 25, 2004 12:00 AM
69
Sorry "Abhishek", I always refer to you as "Abhisekh"..Actually, we Bengalis' prounce name bit differently ! Sorry..
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Oct 25, 2004 12:00 AM
70
Somnath Chatterjee and there ilks are just plain politicians. Who is saying that UCC means single way of marraige. I have never heard this definition of UCC anywhere. Means it is like Indian Penal Code and all laws are encroaching in people's personal culture. Ridiculous this shows how much these people are void of any coherent logic.

They are able to keep it on the bay by actually giving these reasons is not an indictment of these people but more of an indictment of BJP guys, who are not bringing this issue out in the open.

I think now with BJP out of power it will be able to convince its allies for these issues and make it a political issues in coming years. Once Chandra Babu Naidu agrees and in Bihar George Fernandes and other in Orissa agree to this issue then they will bring in into NDA agenda. And then we can see a real battle in our hand on this agenda.

Muslims will have to backtrack on several of these agendas. Though they will vote congress which they always do. But congress will be stuck becuase it cannot afford to loose its hindu vote. It does not have a vote bank of dalits or communists or something like that. It largely gets votes from tghe budda generation and to some degree from rural voters, and poor people. Budda generation cannot be done anything with, but poor people and rural voters can be taken care of. Once that is divided then this agenda can be taken politically in several northern states. Becuase that is where it is most required.

I fear in bengal nothing can happen. As communists have a very strong presence there in every form of life.

Lets hope something happens

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Oct 25, 2004 12:00 AM
71
Well calling me abhishekh is ok. I have studied in Kharagpur and have been called by this name for 4 years, never tried to correct my professors there.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Oct 25, 2004 12:00 AM
72
For modernists like some of us, muslims and Islam
have become controversial topics. At times we
have expressed our selves harshly and continually
raised our critique in order to convince the other side. We have to admit that we have failed
completely in our efforts. No muslim what so ever
has accepted any critique of their faith large or small. There is I believe no point in writeing further about this matter on this website with its limited number of participants.

Perhaps Outlooks columnists would come up with a article about Indian communists, the last of
a diminishing group on this planet. What have they achieved , and where have they failed.
Why are the Comrades so cocky and confident
despite that communism has been abandoned in its
former origins, Russia and China. And why ,despite that West Bengal where they have ruled for 29 years is a basket case, of interest only to sentimental charities, and writers. What drives people like Surjeet a plotter and conspirator a equal even of of Rasputin in older Russian times.How about Basu, who spends his summers in Britain.Has politics become subservient to reality for these now decrepit comrades, in their twilight years.

The communists are playing a huge role in India today. People like me spent lots of time in
idealogical discussions about communism several years ago. Communism has been defeated and discredited with the help of communists themselves. It is strange that it still lives on
in two states of India, both of which have been
hobbled by its inflexible idealogy ,and now it
naked desire for power for the sake of power.

Perhaps Outlook should also look for the writer outside its own staff. No insult intended.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 26, 2004 12:00 AM
73
I strogly disagree with your article. There is nothing wrong on Government part as it must now what they are doing with thier grant whcih is Pupublic money.

I will give you a very simple example for you to understand why I am saying it is Correct. If a student applies for scholarship or AID from the Gov, then It has full responsability to check whether he eligible. If you don't have any problem with the approch, then you should not be creating a big issue about it. It looks like that you want gov aid, but You don't want to tell what they are teaching . SHAME ON YOU and PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT THIS NONSENSE UNLESS YOU GET A VERY VALID REASON.
srinivas
hyderabad, india
Oct 29, 2004 12:00 AM
74
- I am a throughbred hardcore Bengali having spent my entire life among bongs of different kinds. But never ever in my life have I heard a bong pronouncing "Abhishek" as "Abhishekh". We pronounce it as "Obhishekh".

- As a product of the famous Narendrapur Ramakrishna Mission and a spiritual follower of Ramakrishna and Vivekananda, I was pained by the broad brushstroke of Anima, where she painted RSS and RKM in the same hue. Shame on you Anima.

- Readers (Anima, Lalit, Abhishek etc.) have spent huge time and effort here to discuss this issue. But the point is, has anyone of any importance listened to it and responded? Like Vinod Mehta or Saba herself? What is the point in discussing al these if it is falling on deaf ears?
Subir Nag
Mumbai, India
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