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Hurricane Ram
RSS man Ram Madhav's US talk tour sparks a debate: should he have been invited?
In the end, Ram Madhav, national spokesman of the RSS, simply self-destructed in front of his university audiences with incoherent tumbles and bizarre leaps of mind. But the anti-Muslim message was clear in his narrative that careened from laments about high birth rates to rants about two theocracies pushing into India's borders from the east and west. Profusion and invasion were threatening democracy itself in India.
 
 
"People have to engage in the battle of ideas and win," says Sunil Khilnani, defending his invite to Ram.
 
 
He threw in Hitlerian terminology and regressive pronouncements about women to complete the montage. And, you didn't have to be a 'pseudo-secularist' or a 'Commie' to be outraged by the casual manner in which he joked about Gujarat.

Last week, Madhav spoke at Johns Hopkins University (JHU), accompanied by a band of bodyguards. The Madhav brigade intimidated, abused and hissed at student protesters handing out flyers saying "Stop Helping Hate. Stop RSS"—a perfectly normal activity on American streets and campuses. But apparently not for the RSS. A Madhav supporter snatched the flyers, crumpled them and threw them in a student's face. Another threatened to unleash the full power of the dreaded US immigration office and the Patriot Act-empowered police. During the talk, Madhav's brigade sat opposite him, including a man who had assaulted a student in the past for simply asking a tough question of the RSS ideologue. The intimidation tactics came to the notice of university officials later.

Madhav's presence on two prestigious university campuses has left a thick trail of controversy and rage, a war of petitions and many questions about what exactly he is up to in this month-long 'America darshan'. Should he have been allowed to speak at JHU and the University of Pennsylvania (U Penn) and wash off the blood of the Gujarat riots with a mere "it was an unfortunate event and we passed a resolution about it"? Should an audience of graduate students have been subjected to the mishmash Madhav grandly called historical facts without the benefit of context and counterpoints?

No, said more than 150 academics teaching South Asian studies around the US.
 
 
You humanise Madhav and he puts layers and layers of evilness on Muslims. We are lucky he was unsophisticated. What if a slick guy had come? Itty Abraham, George Washington University
 
 
They signed a petition questioning the decision to invite Madhav in the first place. The petition zoomed through email boxes, getting weightier before Madhav travelled from one campus to another. The critics stressed that giving him a platform was akin to providing the Ku Klux Klan a free ride to spread hate. Surely, the history departments would not invite a KKK spokesman to learn about lynching. Madhav's 'talks' at universities would legitimise the RSS, gild his resume and give him a US stamp of approval, the critics said. Itty Abraham, a professor at George Washington University, asked what the "net advantage was of having someone like him speak? You humanise him and he puts layer upon layer of evilness on Muslims. We are lucky that he was unsophisticated. But what if a slick guy came?"

Sunil Khilnani, director of the South Asia program at JHU, stressed that he invited the RSS spokesperson because it was important to expose his students to the various "currents in Indian politics". Distancing himself from the speaker he had invited, Khilnani read a statement before the talk, clarifying that he and the department in "no way endorse the views" of the RSS. The RSS and its ideology are "dangerous and potentially destructive of the constitutional identity of the Indian republic." Since it is a "secretive organisation, it was all the more important that we hold it and its office-bearers up to the light of public debate." For this statement, Khilnani was assaulted with hate mail.
 
 
Everything Madhav said is in the books. So why listen to him? The RSS actions are sickening, its ideas are inane, its history is insane. David Ludden, South Asia Expert
 
 
"Hi Suniluddin," an obscene rant began, jumping quickly into the gutter of bile unfit for print.

Khilnani, who got brickbats from both sides, says he finds it problematic that there is "an unwillingness on either side to engage in an argument".His view is the academics who criticised him speak from a safe perch. "It is all very well to sit in academic campuses, publish in arcane journals, and keep one's hands clean. But it is not a political way of looking at the world. People have to engage in the battle of ideas and win," says Khilnani, whose book, The Idea of India, presents a nuanced appraisal of rightwing Hindu politics in India, among other things.

Francine Frankel, director of the Center for the Advanced Study of India, said she invited Madhav to U Penn to get some answers. "The RSS, which as a social organisation not subject to political accountability is, in reality, the ideological guide of the BJP, and its strongest source of grassroots political workers—an arrangement not present in any other democracy," she said. Questions about where Hindutva stands after Gujarat and the 2004 elections are pertinent and best addressed to the RSS spokesman, she added. Determined to control the event, she allowed only about 35 academics and graduate students to attend.
 
 
The RSS isn't politically accountable; yet is the ideological guide of the BJP—an arrangement not present in any other democracy. Francine Frankel Pennsylvania University
 
 
No protesters, few tough questions—not the kind of temper one tends to associate with US campuses. And Madhav walked away sanguine. He simply didn't address the big questions on the grand alignment and ferment in the rightwing forces that Frankel posed. Instead, he gave his stock recitation against minorities.

By his own admission, Madhav was on a mission to clear the "concerns about Gujarat" in the Indian American community. Perhaps, funds from rich NRIs were drying up because Gujarat was just too difficult to rationalise. But he rallied the faithful while dipping deliriously into a society where anti-Muslim sentiment bubbles just below the surface. Three more university talks are scheduled. In the end he will have raked up a measure of credibility, and some legitimacy despite Gujarat and despite a hundred mutinies under way against the Christians.

S. Akbar Zaidi, a visiting professor from Pakistan who was at the JHU event, was surprised at the similarities between Madhav and the rabble-rousers back home. "One hears exactly the same type of vile stuff against Hindus and Indians from many Pakistani groups. I thought he would give a far more nuanced and intelligent presentation." David Ludden, a South Asia expert who heard Madhav at U Penn, wrote: "The RSS is moving to spin into the media mainstream and they might get people in the US to believe, little by little, that Hindutva is democratic and secular. (That) Muslims are intolerant." Even among American liberals, this message may go down smoothly, he warned. But he found the whole talk redundant because everything Madhav said is in the books. "So why listen to him? The RSS actions are sickening, its ideas are inane, its history is insane."

Madhav certainly seems to have got more from the universities than they got from him.
 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Oct 27, 2004 12:00 AM
78
The two from faculty at American universities had absolutely zero content! There was no direct response to anything that Ram Madhav said. Madhav was actually quite rational, sober and intelligent. He spoke of the Hindu ethos and how it blends with democracy. He referred to people in minority groups being every bit as patriotic as those in the majority. He affirmed his own and his organization's commitment to multi-party democracy and liberalism. If these faculty were expecting a hard-line, dogmatic rant with references to Hindu theology, they would have been deeply disappointed. What exactly is the problem?
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 24, 2004 12:00 AM
77
Saeed Patel,

How very reasonable to say "When will people understand that Hate Kills innocent people including men , women and children."

I Wonder if u ever thought of giving this sane piece of advice to your brother Osama and your friends working in Jehadi factories all over the world?

Or, this wonderful advice is reserved only for 'Hindu Fundamentalists' of Ram Madhav type?
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 18, 2004 12:00 AM
76
Dharmaudh,

1. Do not give you and i so much credit that you renouncing Manusmriti and I renouncing Quran will change the world. Love will change the world and not hate. We must highlight the positives in quran and manusmriti.
2.And yes, I will condemn, unequivocally, all kinds of violence against any human being whether racially or religiously motivated. whether it is sikhs in delhi, pandits in kashmir, jews in palestine, palestinians in palestine , hindus in maran, muslims in Bosnia, muslims in Darfur, hindus in Gujarat, or any other violence like Darfur, Iraq etc. Without any hesitation I will condemn the violence against humans now and forever. By the way, I will and have condemn muslims/maulvis who will support violence. As for Gujarat is concerned you should read Human Right watch reports on www.hrw.org to find out what is happening there.
3.upon hearing the state sponsered pogroms against muslims in gujarat, my sikh friend who almost became a victim of the violence in 84 sikh riots rang me up with a message of sympathy as he exactly knew what must have happened to the victims of gujarat. You should be asking Sonia Gandhi on this one and not me. And yes i have and will always condemn the sikh pogroms of 84 and killing of jews and palestinians in Israel and palestine.
3.you might have articulated the stereotype of the muslims and liberal muslims here. They are what they are "Stereotype". There is enough material available on books and internet to break that stereotypes if you wanted to. As for me, I think I am too small a potato but I do try to break them when I can.

Peace.
saeed patel
New York, USA
Oct 18, 2004 12:00 AM
75
Saeed,

I say enough of the foreplay. I say that the Manusmriti is retrogade and must be banned ... can you say that the Quran must also be banned ? Please dont use verbose dialogues when one word will do.

Also Sonia Gandhi could have stopped the Sikh Genocide by Congress activists by lifting her little finger and she is the super PM. Could you in your comments please condemn her. Hamas / PLO have been responsible for killing scores of innocent Israelis just becuase they are Jews - please condemn that. There is a Jewish guy called Uri who writes in this magazine - As a peace loving Muslim - please go and write some comments about atrocities commited by suicide bombers against the Jews - that would be a fantastic way of showing that you have put behind the retrogade messages in the Quran ... and its Ramzan ... what better time to do that.

Also, you have not mentioned Godhra, Marad , Kashmir and all the other places where Hindus have been butchered or burnt. When you write about Gujarat please rememeber that there are 2 sets of victims ... not one. So please in your comments attack those nameless mullahs & Muslim goons who burnt those poor Hindu pilgrims.

The streotype image of a Muslim is a character who is violent and will stop at nothing to kill you. The image of a Muslim liberal is that he/she is one who only exists to justify the actions of Muslim terrorists. Im sure that as an intelligent peace loving Muslim you want to break that image. You have a wonderful opportunity to start changing images. Please do so .

Shanti. Salaam. Peace. Solidarity.
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Oct 18, 2004 12:00 AM
74
Sayeed Patel
____________

On a serious note , why do Hindus and muslims hate each other so much in Gujerat.

Its not just the RSS, and if so, it is a symptom and not the cause. I have read that muslims in Gujerat have just rubbed the Hindus the wrong
way. For example Gujerati Hindus are mostly vegetarian, and normally timid. Perhaps prolonged irritation concluding with the burning of the train at Godhra, was just the spark which lit the fire.Dont underestimate the effect of Godhra, on the phyche of the Hindus.

Muslims have very pronounced views in most things which arouses anger, and hence the unique phenomena called Paki bashing in England..In Srebinica the Serbs herded some 13000 muslim men and killed them. They were buried in unmarked graves.Later on some muslims took up the WTC project, which has ended in turning USA the most
powerful nation against them. The Americans have subsequently killed tens of thousands of muslims, imprisoned them in humiliating conditions in prisons world wide.Thanks to
fear of muslim terrorists punishing security systems have been set up in every air port, and in the USA they have a most eleborative system to
check visitors.

Before you hit out the RSS, the jews and the christian right I would like you to answer
without evasion-

Why Godhra
Why WTC
Why Bali.
Why Intifada
Why Why Why

Muslims live in India, USA and Bali. Besides
a complete lack of morals and decency, some of you lack common sense and a lack of knowledge of survival tactics. These people seem unaware that violence from them can be and has been returned ten folds.Even animals know the law of the jungle. Animals who break the law , do so at their peril.

People like you support the militants by finding useful explanations and excuses for them , and a policy of attacking your opponents instead of accepting blame .Therefore it will finally be all muslims who will suffer their fate also, so dont get angry now. The non muslim world - excluding India-has stopped feeling sorry for you.

People like me watch with horror the damage you are suffering and causing through out the world. The TV is saturated with scenes of children being shot and killed on both sides. We are traumatised with scnes of muslims killing other innocent muslims and beheadings of innocents people in TV.We are filled with disgust with muslims who seem to have not just lost all human feelings for their victims , but also respect
for their lives and of the lives of their children . You should be troubled by this for the sake of your self and your family, if you live in the USA.

Gujerat, RSS are incidents of a unhappy story.
Right now the killing fields have moved to Iraq , Afghanistan Palestine, Pakistan, Thailand.
Or dont you see TV or read papers.

PS. Writeing this is a waste of time. No muslim
will accept the arguments given.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 18, 2004 12:00 AM
73
Dear Dharmayudh,

"Shanti. Salaam. Peace. Solidarity" This is how you have ended your comments. That is exactly what I am talking about. You can not achieve peace between different religion and ideologies by promoting the ideaologues of hate rein in freely. No religion or ideology is pristine. You will find problems ( and message of hate towards "other" faith and ideology ) in each one of them. All you have to do is use them out of context. I was told that there are terrible things written about "low caste" shudra people in Manu smriti. One could easily take that out of context to promote hate towards hindu religion. Such is the case with every major religion, may it be christiany, judaism etc. I think the collective wisdom of mankind is such that one promotes positives of one's religion and ideology in order to live in peace and harmony with other religion and people. However, in the current anti islam/muslim climate, it seems that while the negative aspects of the "other" religion/ideology is being ignored and in some cases encouraged. Any negative points in Islam/muslims seems to be exaggerated a great deal. While muslim criminals, rightfuly so, are on the run for inflicting terror on innocent people, non muslims are ruling the state. Case in point - Osama and Taliban are on the run but Modi and Sharon are ruling their respective states. It seems that Sharon and Modi can kill innocent man, women and children and get away with it in the world public opinion. (I have yet to see US government (the beacon of freedom of religion /expression ) condemn the violence afflicted upon the Gujarati muslims by complicity of gujarat government in Gujarat Genocide 2002. )Justice and dignity should be for all whether Hindus, muslims, christian, jews or Infidels - like you. It is very important to promote peace and not hate.

PEACE.
saeed patel
New York, USA
Oct 17, 2004 12:00 AM
72
Saaed,

The Quran contains a lot of hate verses against non-muslism such as Jews, Christians, and infidels like me, propagates inequality of women and promotes slavery. Do you think that it should be banned ? This book is freely available because it operates under the banner of "Freedom of religion".

Please let us have your erudite comments.

Shanti. Salaam. Peace. Solidarity.
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Oct 17, 2004 12:00 AM
71
It is totally absurd when seemingly intelligent people ( college professors, graduate students etc. ) have no qualms promoting the hatred against muslims in the name of "Freedom of expression". Can anyone dare to invite Ram Madhav if he were to talk about jews same hateful way he did about muslims to universities under "Freedom of expression". When will people understand that Hate Kills innocent people including men , women and children. Let us not forget there is a mountain of evidence that RSS people were behind the hate violence of 2002 Genocide in Gujarat and the victims of that violence have yet to get any justice. Far from justice, many of them are still not able to go back to their homes for fear of being killed. Victims of Delol village being one example.
saeed patel
New York, USA
Oct 17, 2004 12:00 AM
70
So the bottom line is that Ram Madhav came to the US, talked to people who wanted to hear his message(s), and returned after a very successful and satisfactory tour. From what I hear, he did learn a few nuances from interactions here - on what works best in making the Commie-Pakis jump up and down, for example.

Meanwhile, certain entities like "Ludden" and other bozos, and several of "Man's Best Friends" barked as loud as they could - but got nowhere at all.

I can understand Seema Sirohi's frustration - Man! It must be like watching a postman, every day, just going about his rounds completely ignoring one's loudest efforts to get his attention, or barking "DON'T come near MY fire hydrant!! Bowwow! Bowwow!"

As a Kutta, I completely understand, Seema Begum!

Poor Seema!
Pervez Kutta
London, UK
Oct 15, 2004 12:00 AM
69
Ekadmi
-----

Scandinavian countries have again gotten some of the top slots in a recent survey for honesty and
good government . Liveing here has influenced
my way of thinking .

That was just a diversion.

However I agree that muslims in India are here to stay, and will act and behave like the other
South Asian muslims across the borders. Perhaps
not as violently as in Pakistan for obvious reasons, but their muslim way of thinking will prevail .Ce la vie.

What with the secularists and the communists
and their vote bank politics the future look
bizzarre.. Its only in India that communists support orthodox islam- not in China- Its only
in India that the secularists support conservatise Islam and not in France.

Furthermore as one who is involved in environment
I foresee great problems for India in several
sectors. Shortage of space, water and energy,
Shortage of good schools and medical care.

However science is makeing such rapid progress, that we in India could perhaps find solutions for problems which seem enormous today.

The weather is 10 degrees C, and very sunny.
Wish all website participants a good day.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 15, 2004 12:00 AM
68
Ms. Anima Sarkar, Dharamyudha Singh, Srinivas, Raghu Reddy, Lalit Bagai and EKaadmi, I have been reading all your comments, all of you are quite articulate and very informative. Do keep posting and keep us informed.

A special Thanks to Mr. Vinod Mehta for providing this forum for exchange of ideas and reader discourse. Jai Hind.
Pankaj Shrivastav
bombay, india
Oct 15, 2004 12:00 AM
67
patel what was it that your elders taught you.To give 1/3 of undivided India to the conquest of islam in 1947 and let the very people who demanded that land for their pure/pak nonkafir tribe live on both sides After creating this LAND OVER MILLIONS OF DEAD.

And the man who had kept saying 'partition over my dead body" should have commited suicide.instaed your elders chose to deify him as father of the nation.At least they should have specified that that nation logically was pakistan.But no they build statues in India and not in the created nation Pakistan.And the muslims decide to stay and creat mini pakistans where even Indian laws are ignored eg loudspeakers
banladeshi illegals.

Man if this is what your elders taught you they must have been very stupid indeed.Even children know how to divide property .Ask yours for confirmation.And yes children are not hypocrites like gandhi nehru and the fort wayne guy called patel
j asgutd
madison, usa
Oct 15, 2004 12:00 AM
66
Ladies and Gentlemen

the McCartyism is now out in the open. Earlier, the so called detoxification and purging of people with safforn leanings was done in a slightly (very) covert manner.

Now Surjeet publishes a full list of who has to be sacked / fired / thrown out and the Maskmohan Singh Govt is lapping it up.

Actually it reminds me of Saddam Hussein. As per one documentary on BBC (I think) during one of the Ba'ath party meetings Saddam apparently called out the names of come party officials one after another and they were dragged out of the auditorium and summarily executed.

Now, we have the same in India. It was sickening to see the warm glow of satisfaction on Yechury's face on TV last night as he tried to lie through his teeth (as usual) and say that Surjeet's article does not have anything to do with Ker's purging.

Day-before it was Kher, yesterday it was some guy who was the head of Khadi department - let's see who it is today - anyone willing to bet?

Or will it be Surjeet playing 'eeny meeny maina mo' and Maskmohan ready with the sacking letter?
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Oct 15, 2004 12:00 AM
65
test
j asgutd
madison, usa
Oct 15, 2004 12:00 AM
64
One eminent professor quoted here (with Photo) is Prof Ludden. Here is an interesting Article:

http://www.hvk.org/Publications/fr ustrating.html
(no gap)

The primary Difference between US & India Is:

In US, Prof Ludden wouldn't mind if USA opens the door for Bangleadehsis. But in India, we actually have a Govt which is precisely doing it. In US, people like Prof Ludden is treated as "ultra Left" and not in the main Stream. In India these "ultra left" is actually writing history text Books for School children.

Disaster is going to happen, if not already we have crossed that Limit.
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Oct 15, 2004 12:00 AM
63

Dear Lalit,

Here is an excerpt from an article in The Pioneer, that reflects your line of thinking:

Ever since the ceasefire in J&K came into effect from January 1, 1949, as per the UN Security Council resolution, Pakistan has been harping on plebiscite without caring to implement the first part of the said resolution to vacate the areas under its illegal occupation.

In fact, India had suo motu accepted J&K's accession provisionally, subject to the people of J&K confirming their resolve to accede to this country through a plebiscite to be held after the entire J&K territory had been cleared of Pakistan's illegal and forcible occupation.

In the given situation, India should seriously consider reviving the Security Council's resolution and issuing a notice to Pakistan to vacate POK in letter and spirit to enable the Government to hold a plebiscite to ascertain the wishes of Kashmiri Muslims, whether they want to join Pakistan or remain with India.

Pakistan will have to either withdraw from the POK along with its terrorist outfits or put an end to its claims. In case it does not withdraw, India will reserve the right to forcibly recover POK.

In case Muslims in Kashmir opt for Pakistan, there would be no point in retaining and nursing Muslims in Hindu India any more for the simple reason that soon, they are bound to join hands with Pakistan, Bangladesh and international jihadi outfits. Partition syndrome is bound to resurface. It will be impossible to stop Hindus and Sikhs for long from demanding the exit of Muslim population from Indian soil. That will complete the unfinished agenda of Partition plan.

Pakistan Government cannot remain oblivious to this logical eventuality of over 100 million Indian Muslims flooding Pakistan.

Faced with this stark reality, Pakistan may itself come out proposing LoC as an international border calling off its low intensity war against India."

Sounds interesting, though impractical for reasons enumerated by me several times- Muslims in India will not leave, because they can eat their cake and have it too!


Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 15, 2004 12:00 AM
62
The problem in discussing RSS in an open forum is: people are driven crazy by "left fundamentalist" Historians and their views. However, there are superbly written accounts available by Partha Chatterjee, Ashis Nandy and others.

For example: Does Hindutwa Brigade demand legislative enforcement of rituals or scriptural injunctions. or a role for religious Institutions in legislative or Judicial process, compulsory religious instruction, state support for religious bodies, censorship of Science, literature and art in order to safeguard religious dogma, or any other similar demand undermining the secular character of the existing Indian State?

I encourage people to spend Rs 400 and buy 'Secularism and its Critics" of Oxford University Press. It has two very important Article: one by Partha Chatterjee and other by Ashis Nandy. There are many many historians who has written extensively on India, its statecraft, nationalism, How Hindutwa is changing. Sudipta Kaviraj, Dipesh Chakravarty and many many others. Now don't tell me these are RSS Historians. Each one of them has much better standing today in the world, than all professors mentioned in Seema Sirohi's Article put together !

Its not that we have to support RSS. But to brand Hindu Right (nationalist) as "fundamentalist" is just totally wrong. Nobody believes in that except left fundamentalist Historians.

Bottom Line is: How can you explain Bangalore, India's High Tech capital has both MPs from Hindutwa Brigade? You may doubt Uma Bharati's partriotism. But what you cannot deny is: Uma Bharati represents the face of "Hindu Women" who is NOT bound to her home serving her Husband ! They are at equal footing with men. Just compare how Ideal Women's concept has changed in last 10 years as far as Hindutwa Brigade is concerned!
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Oct 15, 2004 12:00 AM
61
IS THOMAS R. TRAUTMANN DEAD? HOW KKK & RSS Are Related?

KKK is a White Supremecist Organization which traces its roots to "Aryan" Concept of late 19th century Europe. Now, the "Aryan" concept was in turn manufactured by racist European Indologists who claimed Aryans Invaded India from outside and they are mother of all Civilizations. Hitler's concept of "Pure" german Aryan Blood was based on these theories, and others: like Joseph Gobineau, Houston Chamberlain and others. Hitler didn't purge jews because they were non-Christians. But in his twisted theory, Jews were non-Aryans.

Now, what's the take of Hindutwa Brigade on Aryan Concept? Its just the opposite. They belive that Aryans are Indigeneous to India, all Indians originate(Upper class, lower class- everybody) from that stock. Including people of fairer Skin of Northern India, to darker Skin of Southern India. If there are similarity between Sanskrit and other European languages, its because Aryans migrated towards west from India towards Europe.

How KKK's White Supremacist racist theory & RSS's take on Aryans are same? Aren't they totally opposite?

Its very disturbing that these propagandas are being fed by eminent historians of Western Universities, and students.

Rustam: Its those folks who should face Liberal Audience. They are "left fundamentalists". You are a Victim.

A wonderful Book is: Aryans and British India by Thomas R. Trautmann of Univ of Calif. ISBN=0520205464. Read it FOLKS...Please Read it.
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Oct 15, 2004 12:00 AM
60
In all fairness Seema should also take Sir V.S.Naipaul to task. He is also an open critic of Islam , and has said many times that the muslim invasions and occupation has hurt India seriously.

So what punishment does the female Islamic
warrior desire in his case. A request to the
Queen that he be asked to return his knighthood

About Rustom Roy, does he want Sir Naipaul
to wear a clowns dress and entertain kids.

How about the christian fundamentalist preachers,
who damn Islam from their pulpits. Any bright suggestions.How about beheading them on TV.

For the information of all, there are many educated Hindus living in the West who share
the idealogy of the RSS: It means we support
Hindu culture and ethos, and a strong and
prosperous India. It is not directed against
any one, muslim, christian or whatever. I do wish the RSS would modernise, and try and involve all Indians who share their ideals,
but this is not going to be easy. Muslims for the most are seriously against any thing to do with Hindus.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 15, 2004 12:00 AM
59

Mr. Rustom Roy,

Since you are on this forum, I had the opportunity to read yr comments on Ram Madhav's speech in US.

"Fantastic. Personally, I think it is is important to have fanatic thugs like that exposed as intellectualand political nitwits in the company of intelligent people".

I can understand your glee, but could you elaborate on your assessment as to why Ram Madhav is what you say he is and what has been exposed that was so un-exposed earlier. He is a RSS man and he never pretended to be otherwise.

"Unless a person actually advocates violence (against whatever interest) he or she should always be allowed to speak."

Ram Madhav should be eternally grateful to you for allowing him to speak, unlike some others, who believe that the sole distributorship of freedom of expression/ permission as to who should and who should not be allowed to speak is with them. You see in democracy this is allowed, unlike some medieval countries.

"To me, this man seems like all other rightwing Hindus I have ever had the misfortune to meet."

He is right wing Hindu man, and if you did not know it, it only shows your lack of knowledge.

"They all had some personal tragedy or misfortune in their lives that involved Muslims and rather than have the strength of character to analyse the situation they blame all Muslims (or all Hindus for that matter). "

Yes, they all, including the undersigned, had the misfortune for last 1400 years, and if the twin towers, Akshardham, Kashmir, Beslan, Godhra tragedies make, not only Hindus but the whole world, anti-Muslims, I wonder who else they should blame. Martians?

"All such monkeys, like Thackeray and others) should be forced to speak in front of intellgient people, so that the world can see them for the thugs that they are."

Thackrey need not be forced to speak. He is a free man, not like Osama Bin LAden, hiding like a rat, and he is free to speak, whenever and wherever he wants to. At least in India, he does not nedd the permission of jehadis to speak. So far.


"The video taping, if any, should be sold in the comedy section. "

Comedy provides relief. You may probably be used to watching horrors of Osama n the gang or Islamic jehadis beheading innocent Nepalis, Pearl and other people like animals.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
58
Rustom Roy
_____________

Whats your opinion of Sir V.S.Naipaul. He could be considered a Hindu rightist, and I suppose you consider him to be a idiot and some one to be laughed.

If you want laughing material look elsewhere.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
57
Rashid Salam,

Are you an Indian Muslim,Pakistani Muslim or just Muslim (the most popular kind of Muslim)?

So, hearing what you have just mentioned about Ram Madhav under US agencies' watch-list, we are scared and shitting in our pants. That American govt and its agencies are putting India on watch list due to Ram Madhav's speeches is making us very very scared. So, what will they do now, Salaam? put sanctiones against us- OOOh! Big problem because it will hurt them more than it hurts us. Will they stop our hukka-paani in international biradari or what? We are scared- what will happen to our techhies now?

So please help us. We know how much US govt agencies care about Muslim religious sentiments, and that maximum violations is in Islamic countries, one of them being Pakistan and the other is Saudi Arabia. And what has US done about them, despite their active and additional connections with Al qaida and Osam Bin Laden? Award and reward them with more arms, ammunitions and funds. Can you and other Muslims help us please! Please!! We will not speak about anything like Godhra. Pl keep killing innocent Hindus but we will not mention that. Shall we implement Islamic jehad, sharia or commit mass suicide program of Hindus so thatIndia becomes Darul harb? Just say it!! we will do it. But , please we are very scared.

Ram Madhav and for that anybody should NOT be able to express his views without fear or permission from Muslims in US. Let people realise that only Muslims are entitled to that freedom of expression- and that is what is the meaning of democracy and freedom of expression all about.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
56
Fantastic. Personally, I think it is is important to have fanatic thugs like that exposed as intellectualand political nitwits in the company of intelligent people. Unless a person actually advocates violence (against whatever interest) he or she should always be allowed to speak. To me, this man seems like all other rightwing Hindus I have ever had the misfortune to meet. They all had some personal tragedy or misfortune in their lives that involved Muslims and rather than have the strength of character to analyse the situation they blame all Muslims (or all Hindus for that matter). All such monkeys, like Thackeray and others) should be forced to speak in front of intellgient people, so that the world can see them for the thugs that they are. The video taping, if any, should be sold in the comedy section.
Rustam Roy
London, UK
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
55
Patel
_____

Its understandeable that you condemn the killings by muslims also.Thank god for small mercies. However normally this is not talked of by liberal Hindus like yourself.

However I have a point to make. In the 1960' and 70's Europeans because of their colonial past
had a severe guilt complex. Therefore they failed
to condemn corruption and human rights violation
by African leaders but were very critical of the white regime in South Africa. It seemed that there were two moral standards, a higher one for the whites and a lower one for the blacks. No wonder dictators like Idi Amin Dada, Mobotu
etc could get away with all sorts of crimes.

It seems to me that we now have a similar system in India. A high moral standard for Hindus,
and a lower one for the muslims. In it self
an acceptance that muslims are backward, and
need to be excused .

A few years ago I happened to visit a village
school in Pauri Garhwal. I requested the teacher
for permission to talk to the students.
And what a delight. I found the girls especially
nice. They all wanted to be doctors, engineers and teachers. So I asked how they intended
to get married. They giggled and said, this would be decided by their parents. So another question, how many kids will you have. More giggles but then a massive show of hands . Two
they shouted.

This entire region is Hindu, and though poor
it seems to me that this was the best part
of India that I had seen.

I am absolutely tired about pointing to problems with muslims India. Eminent writers like
Sir V.S.Naipaul have written about it. European
societies experience problems with muslims.
ghettoisation, low education levels, higher crime rate and generally the feeling that this community does not subscribe to the ideals of their countries by choice. Explaining this to the muslims is impossible as also to the liberal tolerant Hindu. They seem to live in a Disney World, where reality does not exist.

Anima Sarkar
__________________

For obvious reasons the muslims in India will never support a strong nation state. They want a weak diffused state where they will be best
able to follow their Islamic agenda. Have not readers noticed that muslims never comment on this website on any matter outside the realm of Islam, sharia and so on.Their ideal foreign policy is down with Israel and the USA, and friendship with Saudi Arabia.Education via
the madrassah and all the rest to be in accordance with their conservative muslim laws.

Hindu India is subsidising the backward muslims,
and the muslims accept this, though naturally they want more jobs, greater prosperity, but not being able to work for these.

The muslims in India and elsewhere are a problem
for humanity, and there are no solutions to this problems. Only pious hope.


lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
54
patel is cornered and he is doing what the pseudosecs did when it was pointed out to them that they were sleeping during godhra and kashmir but woke up only when the hindus retaliated in frustration because muslims were at the receiving end.Their coverage of godhra and kashmir is almost zero.They are so blatantly devious that they make it look that there was no godhra provocation at all and the hindus enjoy killing minorities.Yes they have been killing christians in goa and parsis in gujarat.And the muslims are angels.Now when cornered they come out with this standard feeble condemnation.Well actions speak louder than wordspatel.the point is u were quiet when Hindus are killed.And you start barraging the media pages with pretentious comments against the sangh parivar when muslims are killed and that too after a grave provocation like godhra started by your angelic muslims.Remember patel your words of condemnation are devious only to deflect criticism when cornered.And also remember the kashmiri Hindus did no godhra and they were cleansed from their home state.Atleast the muslims are living in Gujarat and playing those 5.30 am loudspeakers (not allowed in your usa).And show us one time you spoke for justice to pandits or your friends like seema or vinod mehta did.Just writing crocodile tears now just shows the kind of hypocritical devious and pretentious person u r.
j asgutd
madison, usa
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
53
Patel,

Most of the points raised by you have already received suitable reply, I hope.

You say " Ekaamaadmi suggests that in response to Ram Madhav’s talk, I should have asked the universities to invite Osama Bin Laden. Again, that is my choice? I either support the RSS or I become an OBL lover? But more interestingly, this might be the Freudian slip that exposes what I was saying. RSS and Al Qaeda are two sides of the same coin. Intolerance against all others in the name of religion."

You say who you invite is YOUR choice. Right?

Exactly!

But you are not willing to give the same choice or right to others who invited Ram Madhav. Is much abused word 'fascism' the name of this kind of malady?

Also, is it not freudian slip to mention Osama Bin Laden as opposed to RSS. OBL is the anti-thesis of RSS, not the other side of the coin, as you may think. RSS does not believe in destroying, OBL does. Does RSS kill or advice Hindus to kill innocent people with planes, execute foreigners and make jehad (or whatever is its equivalent, if any, in Hindi) as its religious policy duly sanctioned by Lord Rama, Krishna or Shiva as Islam and Mohammed do? And for god's sake pl do not quote Gujarat, as we r already sick n tired of hearing about it from a bunch of Muslims and secularists (if they are any different). So spare us that, think, introspect, read about RSS and their ideology before opening your mouth or taking that ignorant pen of your to write about things that you know nothing about.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
52
Bravo T. Patel! People like you give the world hope that the fanatics (of ANY faith) don't rule the world as apparent from the posion floating in these forums. We need more like you to speak up for the universal values of peace and brotherhood. At the same time we need to condemn the perpetrators of hate irresepective of religion, nationality or status.
gorgon
Hawaii, USA
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
51
Yes Mr. Dharmayudh, I condemn the burning of the train in Godhra. And I condemn the killing of minorities in Bangladesh, the second-class citizen status accorded to Hindus and Christians in Pakistan, and the treatment given to minorities in many countries of the Middle East. I condemn the forced displacement of Kashmiri Pandits from the valley. And Mr. Bagai, I condemn the dastardly massacre of Sikhs in Delhi and elsewhere. The hands of the Congress are bloodstained and the Sikhs have still not got the justice they deserve. I also condemn the massacre of Muslims in Bombay by Shiv Sena in 1993 and the horror of Gujarat under the watch of the BJP. And while we are at it, I also find the current treatment of the Iraqis by the occupying American army reprehensible.

So there.

You will notice that I am opposed to all these instances of violence regardless of the religion of the victim. When the Bangladeshi goons illtreat the Hindu minority community and we find this behavior abhorrent, aren’t we mourning the unjust treatment of human beings by those who weild the power? If so, we must find similar behavior in our own country equally abhorrent. That, after all, can be the only principled stance.

What I find more than faintly distasteful about some of these postings is that the suffering of Hindus elsewhere and the murder of Hindus at Godhra is being offered as an implicit justification for the violence against the entire community of Muslims (incidentally, one of the poorest and most indigent groups in the country). There is a “serves them right” attitude that is fueled by an irrational hatred that pushes the cause of collective punishment. Not exactly the Hinduism my elders taught me.

Peace.
T. Patel
Fort Wayne, US
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
50
Right wing christians in the US hate Islam.
One very popular preacher has called Mohammed a paedophole. Rv Graham has said that whilst christianity is light, Islam is darkness.

If the USA bans Madhav, it would have to ban
most christian preachers. By the way
Ms Pia Kjærsgaard the leader of the Danish Folk Party has said that there is a conflict going
on between civilisation and barbarism. Would you shut her up and all the others who say the same thing.

Phyician heel thyself .Muslims are disliked across the globe, and the worst things are said about Islam every day at least in Danish papers.

Hate against the muslims will subside when they
behave as normal civilised humans.

I saw on Danish TV that the relatives of Beslan victims are planning revenge against neighbouring
muslims who were behind the tragedy. As usual
should this happen, all the muslims of the world will condemn it as a grave injustice.

Lastly Gandhi was not respected by muslims when he was alive. It was all about Pakistan and Jinnah. Now Gandhi is being resurrected to
point fingers at the Hindus.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
49
My commendation and thanks to the author for writing on this excercise of exporting hate outside of India by Mr. Madhav and his organization. It is due to groups like these that India is on the watch list of US Commission on Religious Freedom around the world. Thanks to Mr. Madhav, his performances in the US will only confirm the concerns of the US government. These ideologies of hatred are not new to the western world. The Nazi ideology of Aryan supremacy and the KKK are very familiar and RSS only serves as a reminder to the world that we still have these hate mongering groups and the responsible sections of the community will not fall prey to such venomous bodies.

The author's article is timely and brings to focus the attempts by a minority (yet vocal)of Hindu population's attempts destroy the good name of Hinduism.

As one travels around the world it is not hard to notice that India is known vastly by two symbols. Gandhi and Taj Mahal. One, a monument of non-violence and the other the monument to love. Anyone who goes against these symbols only discredits himself and the great country called India.

Rashid Salam
Mo
Chicago, US
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
48
Im waiting Mr/Ms Patel...

In the meanwhile .. heres some more stuff to ponder about ...

The Congress Patry was responsible for the massacre of thousands of Sikhs in India during 1984. Does that genocide ring a bell ?

Now, if a Congress party activist comes to the US to talk about whatever, will you, Seema Sirohi or any other Indian journalist slam that activist ? Is Sonia Gandhi... (who could have lifted her little finger and stopped the Congress murderers) ...were to visit the US, will you or Seema Sirohi or ANY journalist write against her talking here in the USA ?

What holds for Ram Madhav should hold for Sonia Gandhi is it not ? Or Does it ? What holds when Muslim rights are abused should hold when Sikh rights are abused, is it not ? So Mr / Ms Patel, have you condemned Ms Sonia Gandhi in any of your postings or comments or letters anywhere ? If yes, please post the links of these postings. If not, why haven't you? Do you think that Sikhs are 3rd class citizens or sub-humans that they be denied "human rights" ?

Shanti. Salaam. Peace. Solidarity.
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
47
hurricane Ram(Outlook)You may love or hate RSS.But you cannot ignore it.The RSS-inspired BJP ruled India for 5 years.The ABVP,inspired by RSS is the biggest students organisation ,in India.So is BMS,the number one in the Labour field.BMS isfounded and inspired by an RSS wholetimer.It is not for nothing that the BBC,called RSS,the biggest organisation of it*s kind inthe world.This was in 1976,when RSS cadreswere conducting a heroic resistance movement against Indhira*s Emergency.In these situations when the RSS has grown many fold since then,and when RSS ideologyhasspread to almost all spheres of National Life in India,how is it possible to ignore RSS view point on matters of importance?Well.The RSS today operates in different Hindu names in various countries.So if anybody says todaythat RSS Leader Shri Ram Madhav shouldnot have been invited toaddress students in American Universities,then perhaps he is out of touch with reality!.Such a stance is against Democratic spirit which is very muchupheld and practised in the US.

When two planes carrying Haj pilgrims collided in Haryana,India some years back in the mid air,the RSS cadres rendered so much of selfless services.Their yeomen services were appreciated evenby Arab Newspapers like Khaleej Times!.Does this make RSS Anti_Muslim?The Seva Bharathi social services wing of RSS is running some 36,000 social service projects in the slums of India catering to the needs of downtrodden sections.The Vanavashi Kalyan Ashram another RSS affiliate is working for the upliftment of tribals in 125 Teibal Dts in India.The vidhya Bharathi-another RSS Outfit_is imparting qualityeducation to lakhs of students in thousands of schools run by it.aND ALL THESE ACTVITIES OF ALL THE ORGANISATIONS MENTIONED ABOVE ARE CARRIED OUT WITHOUT ANY GOVERNMENT FUNDING,AND BY THE OWN EFFORTS OFRSS AND IT*S SISTER ORGANISATIONS!.Are all these activities " a sin"assomeonehas calledthe RSS?If these activities are sins,then India requires more sinners wedded to RSS ideology ,totake the country forward and make it number one in the world without any outside assistance!

RSS stands for patriotism,discipline,character,and nationlism,and also for uniting Hindus.This is the dire need of the hour and a virtue.RSS isthe only effective shield for Hindus against the onslaught of pseudo-seculrists,Marxists,Meccalites,and Anglicised Hindus.RSS is opposed to the anti_national activities of Communists,and the Congressmen also.Does that make RSS Anti_Hindu?(Yours trulyL.Rohini)


L.ROHINI
tiruchirappalli, India
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
46
Also Mr / Ms Patel,

One of the prime movers of this campaign is a guy called Kaleem Kawaja, a Taliban supporter. Please see my earlier postings. Could you please comment on whether Indian journalists should be in cahoots with a Taliban supporter. You know that the Taliban are terrorists isnt it ? So, should Indian journalists share the same bed with supporters of terrorists in order to beat up the RSS ?
Could you please comment on the ethical & moral considerations & implications of that step.

Thank you.

Shanti, Salaam, Peace.
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
45
Mr/Ms T Patel,

You are obviously a follower of Gandhi. Good for you.
You are bothered about the human rights abuses of Muslims. Thats good too.

Unfortunately, secularism, "human" rights, justice etc. in India are one-way streets. For eg. When Hindus / Sikhs are killed its secularism & when Muslism/Christians are killed its fascism. Do you get the drift ? If you think that the RSS does something bad please comment about it ... but do take a look if they are doing something good and comment about that as well. Has it dawned upon you Sir / Madam why scores of educated Hindus are being drawn towards them ? Because they are seen as saviours of Hindus .. they are the guys who take up cudgels on behalf of the Hindus ... they are the ones who are facing the onslaught of the destruction of Hindu culture, its history etc ... Is killing innocent Muslims the way to do it ? Course not ... but lets agree that in Gujarat after Godhra occurred things did get out of hand .. it was Hindus(RSS, Congress etc.) who went around massacring the Muslims ...so lets not just blame the RSS ...

Also ... Hindus like you flare up when Gujarat is mentioned but maintain a defeaning silence when it comes to Godhra, Marad, Kashmir or the any other event where Hindus are on the receiving side. Why is that Sir / Madam ? Lets see the outrage from your side for human rights abuses against Hindus ... Sadly one won't ... thats what happened after Godhra ... even the Economist of London commented a few issues ago about the Indian media's apathy during Godhra ... but the amplitude and frequency of Gujarat in the media is increased while in the case of Godhra or any other attack on Hindus a defeaning silence is maintained ...

If the Indian media & folks like you make your minds a two way street ... a lot of us will also make our minds a two way street. Does that sound like a plan ?
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
44
Patel
_____

Tolerance is fine. No argument.
However in some cases it is like Gandhi saying that one should be non violent even when facing the Nazis.

I call it stupidity. Yes you may praise Hindus
for creating a multi ethnic society. But for how long. Are the muslims in India secular-

Naipaul has said in his books, that muslims are
very astute. When living in purely majority countries,they have a pure Islamic agenda.
When liveing in multi ethnic societies they
praise the democratic system, and use it to
to their advantage. In India it has been used to
a new law about muslim widows, establishing of
madrassahs, and mosques all over. And muslims
have by dress and behaviour emerged as a separate nation in India. s this secularism.

I suppose you would consider the French ban on the hijab to be intolerant.

So all in all we are different. I prefer a
multi cultural societies, where every one plays the game, and no one cheats.

By the way, I look forward to condemning your American fellow citizens for their intolerance and mass killing in Iraq, afghanistan and else where. The killing by Americans is at least 10 to 20 times greater, than the killing by Hindus.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
43
I do not claim to speak on behalf of millions of Hindus. I am merely pointing out the obvious

Excuse me, you do, when you claim that the RSS must stop this taking over of my voice and the voice of millions of other Hindus .

Speak for yourself, I have no problems. But when you start brandishing the imaginary voice of "millions" to lend weight to your own, you are playing the same game as that you accuse the RSS of. One must ask: "how many millions exactly? 2.5? 32.77? 12.96? Any evidence that these numbers are solidly behind you?" etc.

By any chance, is your point #2 addressed to me?
Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
42
A few quick responses, since they are directly addressed to my post.

1) Raghu, I do not claim to speak on behalf of millions of Hindus. I am merely pointing out the obvious; that millions of Hindus (for example, those who did not vote for BJP) do not support the RSS. I would have no problem if the RSS claimed to speak on behalf of millions of Hindus because it is clear that millions of Hindus do support the RSS.

2) It is willful ignorance to suggest that the RSS played no role in the post-Godhra massacre in Gujarat. Leaders of the Sangh Parivar (particularly the VHP) are on record claiming credit for the inhuman behavior of the mobs in my home state. Gandhi, another Gujarati, once said that you cannot wake someone who is pretending to be asleep. If all the reports by a variety of agencies including the Human Rights Watch (which is no Muslim lover and has also written about Islamic extremisim and violence in other parts of the world), all the facts on the ground including the failure of the legal machinery to bring these culprits to justice, all the Supreme Court judgements that cast aspersions on the Gujarat governments refusal to treat Muslims like citizens who deserve the protection of the state etc. do not persuade you that the Sangh and its functionaries did in fact support and condone (if not actively produce) the violence, then you are pretending to be asleep. Is our hatred for Muslims so all consuming that we cannot apply the yardstick of human decency to judge the actions of the perpetrators of violence, not against Muslims, but against human beings?

3) Ekaamaadmi suggests that in response to Ram Madhav’s talk, I should have asked the universities to invite Osama Bin Laden. Again, that is my choice? I either support the RSS or I become an OBL lover? But more interestingly, this might be the Freudian slip that exposes what I was saying. RSS and Al Qaeda are two sides of the same coin. Intolerance against all others in the name of religion.

4) Yes, Pankaj, I have travelled to India, I have visited its villages, and I have been to Gujarat after the violence. I have seen the camps, heard the stories of the victims, seen the hate that was spread under the banner of the Sangh. And I want no part of it.

5) It is a travesty to suggest that Muslims have not condemned Godhra. I have seen dozens of examples. As far as the AIMPLB is concerned, this very issue of Outlook has an article by a prominent Muslim scholar denouncing that body.
http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodn ame=20041007&fname=aimplb&sid=1

6) 5) That which Bagai finds so “dishonourable” about Hindus, their ability to create a multi-religious society, is precisely what I find so honourable about them. May our secular ethos live long and prosper.

Peace.
T. Patel
Fort Wayne, US
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
41
Thanks Raghu,

I checked with your reference and found the following most interesting about David Ludden (I have condensed it for making it brief):

"When Prof Ludden expresses his views on the Sangh parivar, he is virulently anti-Hindutva and that he has never discussed issues of Hindutva with those who are its votaries, that his information about Hindutva is obtained from those who are anti-Hindutva, and that he has not read, for example, the manifesto of the BJP. At least the audience would be informed that they are dealing with a biased person and consider his views with a handful of salt. "

I think same goes for Itty Abraham. I'll get back with his credentials.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
40
By your own admission in a part of you report you very subtly admit that Madhav was atleast given a patient hearing by the US Universities. Just because a few people who are known RSS baiters did not want him to speak does not mean that he need not have been invited. I think you pseudo secularists should preach a little more tolerance of others views before targetting them without rhyme or reason. It is appalling that you still use the Gujarat Riots as a backdrop of every NRI gathering to further your propoganda. It is sickening that this is mentioned even two years after it occurred and still used to gain mileage. Cant you guys come out of it? If you are asking the RSS and Ram Madhav to explain their actions vis-a-vis the Gujarat riots everytime, then shouldnt a member of the AIMPLB also go forward and explain why members from the Muslim Community torched 58 people in the Train that led to the unfortunate riots of 2004. In a civil society everyone despises Riots and Violence. Your propoganda only tarnishes India's already damaged reputation further. You guys should really stop and start reporting the truth. Another mention in your article. "But he rallied the faithful while dipping deliriously into a society where anti-Muslim sentiment bubbles just below the surface " have you ever wondered why that sentiment bubbles under the surface. We shouldnt be blaming Muslims for all our problems, but unfortunately their ghetto mentality and the fact that a few people from their community have tarnished their religion's image beyondredemption. Now just because you are in America you mention about the numerous 'mutinies' against Christians eh? I notice nothing but a strong apathy for factual information. Someone even thinks the RSS is a secret organization like the KU KLUX KLAN. But facts are on the contrary, one can attend a shakha of the RSS at his/her playground. Anyone irrespective of his caste/creed/religion are welcome. I myself attended one of these. They only teach you to be a patriot,and to respect our cultural heritage? What is wrong with that? If singing the National Song Vande Mataram is a matter of disgrace for some people then we cannot do anything about it. Unfortunately after this post I will be dubbed like many others who vouch for this that I am a rabble rouser in the likes of the Sangh Parivar, but the truth is after listening to both sides I am beginning to see where the truth lies.
vijay shankar
Bangalore, India
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
39
The VHP's perspective on David Ludden, one of the guys that Simmering Sirohi rented a quote from:

http://www.hvk.org/Publications/frust rating.html
Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
38
Dear Mr T Patel,

Can the RSS spokespersons stop speaking in the name of all Hindus?

I agree with you that the RSS' claim of speaking for all Hindus is spurious.

This taking over of my voice and the voice of millions of other Hindus who do not subscribe to the ideology of the RSS must end.

Now, but, wait a minute.

It is ironical that while declaiming RSS for claiming to speak for all Hindus, you yourself claim to speak for "millions of other Hindus"! Even if these millions are ostensibly those who, happily like you, don't subscribe to the RSS ideology, they haven't elected you to speak for them, right?

I mean, this practice of people and organizations pretending to draw from the support of millions and trillions of populations must end. Everybody must speak for him/herself. No more, no less.

In these very pages, I find that somebody has posted a "protest" against Arun Shourie from a bunch of "women's" outfits that claim to speak for all women. I know for certain that my sister would have nothing to do with these self-proclaimed representatives of women!

Likewise, there are many "secularists" claiming to speak for all secularists. They should stop that nonsense. They speak for nobody but themselves. I consider myself secular, but would not touch many of these "secularists" with a bargepole.

The same applies to any number of Muslim/Christian outfits claiming to speak for Muslims/Christians. "Muslims are distressed by US policies", writes a clown. "Muslims are outraged by Israel's actions", writes another. "Bush is waging a war on Islam", an even bigger clown announces. Oh yeah? Have ALL muslims in the world lined up to tell these clowns that they are upset with US and Israel? Of course not. The above are just claims advanced by a few individuals claiming to speak on behalf of Muslims . They definitely do seem to be speaking on behalf of fundamentalists, but that is about it.

So, to cut a long story short, the bottomline is: everybody must speak for him/herself. One should NOT claim to speak for whole populations unless one is their democratically elected representative.
Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
37

Islam khatre mein hai...Islam is in danger ,again!!

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1 041013/asp/nation/story_3876610.asp
Prasenjit
Delhi, Delhi
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
36

Note to the Outlook d/13-4-2k4
1. The average liberal hindu is abhoorent about the RSS when it is suggested that it may be responsible for the post-Godhra riots in Gujarat, and is vehement to say RSS does not represent liberal Hindus. When the Al Quaida perpetrates terrorist killings every day all over the world, the liberal Moslem merely says all Moslems should not be designated terrorists, showimg no real anger or antagonism for the ISI. This contrast is itself sufficient to show that all hindus abhor violence, as the name indicates: [himsaam dooshayati iti hindoo].Hence, it is unlikely that the major part of post-Godhra riot might have been not by hindus, by pak-Moslems disguised as aadi-vaasies against Moslem
Shopkeepers not attacking hindus, despite counterfeit money given for opening their shops in the first place. Such a view is encouraged by the fact that Pakistan, after fostering and training the Al Quaida, now claims to be a front-libe state on anti-terrorism, to save its strategic assets. The fact that Mushareff was in UN talking about it when the Gujarat riot happened, strengthen this view.
2. RSS merely stands for National Self Service, what is evil about it is difficult to see, unless nationalism itself is evil to non-hindus and the so-called hindu secularists/pluralists. It strives for the preservation/survival of basicall unique Indian-ness among all Indians. If India is called Hindustan, if jai Hind can mean Jai-India, Hindutva can only mean Indian-ness. Clearly all nationalist non-hindu Indians can also join RSS/BJP and help Hinduism and all other religions survive and thrive in a harmony called India..
3. In view of the above, it is wrong for the mercenary Indian media to unfairly portrays the RSS as the Hinduistic other-extreme counterpart in India for the Islamic jehadi-ummaistic fundamentalism. In the world.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
35
Patel
---------

Tolerance in the face of intolerance is stupidity.

People like you keep on calling Hindus for restraint,tolerance when the Hindus are for the most tolerant to the point of timidity. You live in the USA and you know the tough attitude the US government is takeing toward the terrorists and muslims in general. On the whole th entire
American people are patriotic and support this tough policy.

Likewise the Russians and the Israelis back their governments.

The dishonourable exceptions are the Hindus, who have seen their land invaded time and again,
their holy places destroyed, and have responded
with meakness and sickening platitudes.

I think you should tell the Americans that you do not support their intolerant policies against
muslims in the USA and abroad. Its the Americans
who are killing muslims in the thousands, and
not the poor Hindus, who are constantly being lectured by people like you. Try and talk to the Americans the same way you write about the RSS and let us know.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
34
great rejoinders ekadmi and pankaj .Lets see the RSS hater patel reply.May be he call call seema and ask her for help to prepare a reply.That is if he can trace her till her next outlook article.As usual OL's writers like seema have done their "shoot and scoot" bit.And they pretend to be progresive,democrat liberal etc.But you never see the regular scribes(uttara does not count)willing to engage in a debate.The readers are just too intelligent for them.Poor patel put
his foot in his mouth on behalf of seema.Let us see if he also scoots like seema .Or returns with even a minimal sense in his reply to the reasoning of ekadmi or pankaj
j asgutd
madison, usa
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
33
Mr. Patel, here is a link for you,

http://www.indiastar.com/rameshrao.html

Read this article and the book 'The Saffron Swastika, The Notion of Hindu Fascism'. This book is perhaps the only hope for you to come out of you colonized mind. It would perhaps turn you from a communist propoganda dupe to an enlightened citizen, having pride in America and to his motherland as well. Jai Hind.
Pankaj Shrivastav
bombay, india
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
32
Mr. Patel from Fort Wayne,I read your comments here on the forum. I would like you to mention the sources of your information regarding the RSS. How have you come to the conclusion that the RSS is all about hate, violence and murder of innocents. Have you visited India to meet its workers, have you travelled to the villages of india where RSS works, have you acquainted yourself to the projects and programmes undertaken by the RSS. If you have NOT, then please sir, desist from making these conclusions from Fort Wayne, US. The passive consumers of the media are the biggest dupes of the media. The reports that come to you from India and in the US about the RSS, would be reflective of this article, which is less about objectivity and truth and more about politics and calumny. Next time around, try to base your observations on "FIRST HAND INFORMATION", rather than rely on hatchet jobs by seasoned hacks with their own agenda.
Pankaj Shrivastav
bombay, india
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
31

Dear T. Patel,

1. It is gracious of you to concede the right of speaking to Ram Madhav, because some people like Seema Sirohi do not want him to get that right, just because he is from RSS. Talk of democracy and freedom of expression which seems to be selective and meant for SOME people only! For RSS, BJP, VHP- NEVER.

2. Who is stopping you from inviting your idol, Osama Bin Laden or whoever, to come to your school campus n give an apt rejoinder to Ram Madhav and give a lengthy speech on 'why this whole world shud not be converted to dar-ul-harb (land of Islam)'. Pl suggest to your University right away, willya?

3. Agreed Ram Madhav does not represent ALL of Hindus but name ONE leader of Hindus who does, especially one who represents people like you. Because then, he may not represent me and millions like me. My friend, the general idea is to point out what is so offensive about the message that Ram gave, instead of shooting the messenger!
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
30
In response to my stating that the RSS does not speak for me or for many other Hindus, Lalit Bagai asks me to "grow a beard". Presumably, he is not refering to a Narendra Modi kind of a facial hair growth, but one that will identify me as a Muslim. So the choice he offers me is this: either I support the RSS or I am not a Hindu. By doing this, he clarifies the RSS position quite well. Those of us who oppose hate, violence, and the murder of innocents will have to renounce our Hinduism, if Bagai and his like have their way. So much for their tolerance.
T. Patel
Fort Wayne, US
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
29
I thank outlook for popularizing Ran Madhav all over India with this article.The public did not know him much and now because of this article he has become popular.I request outlook to publich more such articles on him and other RSS activists so that they become more popular.UPA government popularized uma bharathi with her arrest in Hubli case.Musharraf popularized Narendra modi when he spoke about Modi in UNO.Modi even thanked musharraf for that.I heard that Ram madhav is very happy that his us visit was popularized by media.He is visiting Europe next.I hope it too gets popularized.
sampathkumar
chennai, India
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
28
Patel
______

Yes it is a pity that RSS talks on your behalf,
when your sympathies are clearly with the other side. Grow a beard or some thing so that people do not make mistakes about you in the future.
Advise your friends to do the same.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
27
It is not that Mr. Madhav does not have a right to speak at U.S. universities. But it is a shame that these institutions allowed him an uncontested platform from which to gloss over the barbaric role that the RSS has played in the violence against minorities.

One more thing. Can the RSS spokespersons stop speaking in the name of all Hindus? They need to stop going around saying Hindus are this, Hindus are that, Hindus are not going to tolerate this, Hindus will not stand for that. This taking over of my voice and the voice of millions of other Hindus who do not subscribe to the ideology of the RSS must end.
T. Patel
Fort Wayne, US
Oct 12, 2004 12:00 AM
26
This is perhaps an unanimous consensus on this forum, Nits is a qualified NUT.

Hey, Nits, don't take it to heart. Just Joking.

By the way, don't hide behind a penname as absurd as Nits, get a real name.
Pankaj Shrivastav
bombay, india
Oct 12, 2004 12:00 AM
25
The comment under the title caption of this article itself shows the mentality of secularists. It reads,
"should he have been invited?". This is not Seema Sirohi's home wedding. Some American University wanted to invite RSS leader to give a talk, for whatever reason. Let him talk his views, and let them find out his mind. Why should we bother about it?. Why should our intellectuals carry the burdon of our whole civilisation on their shoulder?.
If you can't fight RSS in India, you will never fight them going all the way to US. Relax.
R. Srivatsan
Newport News, USA
Oct 12, 2004 12:00 AM
24
The author says Ram Madhav is 'unsophisticated'. Too bad for the secularists, they dont provide any patents for being called intellectual or sophisticated.
Ankan Kumar
Columbus, USA
Oct 12, 2004 12:00 AM
23
Hey All,

Anyone wanting to read the messages that pseudo-secularists, Islamists, Maoists & other assorted terrorists use .. please visit -

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/india-unity/

... these guys create beggars in the name of alleviating poverty ... and now they want to destroy India in the name of maintaining its unity
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Oct 12, 2004 12:00 AM
22
Seemaji ,

You must think that Outlook readers are idiots.

Please check the following :

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/india-unity /message/3161

From: "Kaleem Kawaja"
Date: Sat Sep 25, 2004 9:25 pm
Subject: Petition against John Hopkins University hosting RSS Spokesman


ADVERTISEMENT


Dear friends:
The well known Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD, is hosting Mr Ram
Madhav, a staunch RSS spokesman, in the university's South Asia Studies
program. Obviously it is an affront to all who want India to remain a
pluralistic, multi-religious nation. Please see the below message. The
message gives instructions on how each of us can write to the university
asking them not to invite Mr Madhav. The program is scheduled to begin on
9/29/04. Time is short.

Kindly send an e-mail message to Johns Hopkins University ASAP. Thanks.

Kaleem Kawaja

AND WHO IS KALEEM KAWAJA ???

He is the founder of an Islamist Organization in the US called Association of Indian Muslims or something ... and what are his true views ..... ???

Here goes

http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/0 1032002/0103200254.htm
Brother, can you spare a tear for Taliban
By Kaleem Kawaja

Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Oct 12, 2004 12:00 AM
21
Itty Abraham "he puts layer upon layer of evilness on Muslims."

Har de har har har ... Itty, don't you think that the Muslims are doing such a fine job themselves ?
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Oct 11, 2004 12:00 AM
20
Ram Madhav,

Here are some lines for you (from Invictus with apologies to WE Henley)


In the fell clutch of closet Islamists,
You have not cried nor winced aloud,
Under the bludgeoning of pseudo-secularists,
Your head is bloody but unbowed.

Look forward to more visits to the US ...

BTW was Seema Sirohi present for any of these events or did she get the "rhetoric" straight from other mullahs, missionaries & marxists present there ?

Also NITs,

I don’t see this place as some sort of Roman arena where individuals are pitted against each other ... its ideas & opinions .. its facts v/s rhetoric .... In ancients Greece you had the sophists on one hand & you had Socrates. The Sophists objective in an argument was to win. Socrates’ objective in an argument was to arrive at the truth. Eventually he was poisoned because of his attitude. Eventually western civilization owes a debt to Socrates & his most famous followers Plato & Aristotle .. . Does anyone remember the names of any of the Sophists or the chaps who poisoned Socrates .. hardly ... As the Hindu Fascists of yore would say - “Satyameva Jayate” ... its too much to expect most Indian journalists to stick to the path of the Socrates ... but lets us guys & gals on the message board stick to that path ... what say you ?
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Oct 11, 2004 12:00 AM
19
"People like Seema or Arundhati Roy believe that they can go around abusing Hindus, Hinduism, BJP, RSS and VHP"" that is a subtle way of attaching VHP with hinduism...or i percieved it as such. u r making an issue out of nothing. i don have low self esteem. i guess what u did tht day by calling a lady names is wrong(i don tolerate tht), what u r doing right now is also wrong... u know it.
nits
nashville, USA
Oct 11, 2004 12:00 AM
18

Nits,

You are a liar!

When someone makes mistake, the best course is to accept it gracefully, instead of compounding it with another lie. And that's what you are doing.

You wrote, and my response, I quote:

"You say, and I quote "ekaadmi, i am a hindu, and VHP does not represent me, neither does it represent majority of hindus in the world. very cunningly you and th elikes have related attacks on VHP as attack on hindus."

If you can show where I have said that 'attacks on VHP as attack on Hindus' and prove what you say, I quit from this forum, or you do if you can not.

Take a challenge, willya?"

And now u say u r pitted against DS not me- u show a lack of self-esteem.

Pathetic!
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 11, 2004 12:00 AM
17

Dear Raghu,

I just found out what u r looing for.

Pl go to www.IndiaStar.com , this is a A Literary-Art Magazine, and look for an article titled 'India Abroad' s Brood ofOpinion Writers--Analysts or Ideologues? by Ramesh N. Rao

You will find the reference to what Itty Abrahm said about 'Hindus being untrustworthy'.

Mr. Itty Abraham will be found in the company of some Pakistanis in many such articles.


Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 11, 2004 12:00 AM
16
I have actually listened to Mr. Madhav speak, and answer questions on his feet. He is a heck of a lot smarter and more "sophisticated" than the Indian Ambassador. Yeah, he has an Andhra accent when he speaks English, but I think he speaks clear, idiommatic Engish - a heck of a lot better than Seema Sirohi or her Masters the South Asia Faculty rats speak Telugu or Hindi.

I spent some time trying to correlate the writing of Sirohi with the reality of what I saw from observing Madhav - and have to conclude that Seema Sirohi is another completely dishonest trash-writer. The impression conveyed through her article has no relation to reality. Fits OUTLOOK perfectly.
Pervez Kutta
London, UK
Oct 11, 2004 12:00 AM
15
JHU is not JNU! Too bad for our comrades. Though Senator Joe McAarthy is long gone, a crop of neo-(Desi)McArthites seems to have crept out in the form of secular saviours.

Alas, Ram Madhav is "unsophisticated". How condescending of the seculars, who seem to be endowed with all the intellectual sophistication that the academic world can bestow on anyone.
KVjayan
Chennai, India
Oct 11, 2004 12:00 AM
14
"People like Seema or Arundhati Roy believe that they can go around abusing Hindus, Hinduism, BJP, RSS and VHP"....
wats that ? BTW...dont sound harsh man...i was pitted more against dharam yudh than you.
nits
nashville, USA
Oct 10, 2004 12:00 AM
13
Nits,

Despite my great reluctance to respond to you, I have to, because I wish to nail your lie.

You say, and I quote "ekaadmi, i am a hindu, and VHP does not represent me, neither does it represent majority of hindus in the world. very cunningly you and th elikes have related attacks on VHP as attack on hindus."

If you can show where I have said that 'attacks on VHP as attack on Hindus' and prove what you say, I quit from this forum, or you do if you can not.

Take a challenge, willya?
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 10, 2004 12:00 AM
12
Raghu,
Pl go to A9.com and search for Prof RAmesh Rao and you will get all the answers.

Good Luck
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 10, 2004 12:00 AM
11
i agree that madhav cannot be stopped from talking in US...everybody has a right to put forward their view after all.
but ekaadmi, i am a hindu, and VHP does not represent me, neither does it represent majority of hindus in the world. very cunningly you and th elikes have related attacks on VHP as attack on hindus.
just to remind you, BJP got 128/543 seats in a country where 85% are hindus.
nits
nashville, USA
Oct 10, 2004 12:00 AM
10


Very well put, Srinivas dear,
excellent shot,
But then, these secularists
are a shameless lot!

For these messiahs of yellow journalism, the ‘freedom of expression’ is reserved for themselves only. People like Seema or Arundhati Roy believe that they can go around abusing Hindus, Hinduism, BJP, RSS and VHP but these people do not have ANY right to respond or defend themselves.

But, let me assure you that our NRI brothers and sisters are far more enlightened and knowledgeable and understand the evil designs of such ‘saleable’ journalists.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 10, 2004 12:00 AM
9
I am surprised at all the ranting that Seema Sirohi has done in this article - if you could call it that.

Firstly, Arundhati Roy going all over the world and indulging in RSS-BJP-Hindutva bashing is OK but Ram Madhave travelling in the US doing some Muslim bashing is wrong?? I thought we were a free country.

Secondly, and more importantly, Ram Madhav has done precisely what all your secular media and secularists have been accusing him of.

You ( I mean secularists and secular media) accuse the RSS is anti Muslim - he spoke against Muslims - where's the disconnect?

You accuse the RSS of raising the bogey of rising Muslim population - so Madhav spoke about this in the US - where's the disconnect?

You accuse RSS of rasing bogey about muslim infiltration along the eastern border - he spoke about the exact same thing - where's the disconnect?

You people accused RSS of a whole lot of things and yet you criticise them for doing the same things?

And if Madhav would have gone about praising Muslims then you would have accused him of being deceitful and insincere- either way a win-win for you.

And regarding his comments about Gujarat (about it being unfortunate), what would your comment be about Godhra - I am sure you and your ilk in the secular media would say the same thing - its unfortunate (Unless you are Laloo who would say that Hindus set fire to the train to target muslims)

Finally, I am sure that Madhav's visit to the US did not attract only criticisms. You story would have appeared more credible, rather than a witch-hunt, if you managed to get in a couple of words from the other side too.

But then, you would not be secular or you would not be working for Outlook
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Oct 10, 2004 12:00 AM
8
Mr. Arindam Banerjee,

There is a class of our so-called media people who seem to be sold to the anti-India forces and in the disguise of 'secular, independent and liberal intellectuals', are hell-bent on destabilising this country. Seema Sirohi, Seema Mustapha, Saba Naqvi, Prem Shankar Jha, Arundhati Roy are some of these.

They do this for another reason as somebody mentioned in this forum- they do not have the balls to utter a single word against Islam and Muslims for Muslims are not like Hindus- Salman Rushdie, Tasleema Nasreen, MF Husain and the ilk are ample example of what anti-Islam writing can do. With Hindus, you can get away with anything- nude Saraswati, anti-Ramayan and the like- because Hindus have been tied by these vary 'intellectuals' in their own rope of being liberal, free from bigotry, open to new ideas, freedom of expression and so on.

No wonder MF Husain, Javed Akhtar, Mahesh Bhatts never take this 'Freedom of Expression' with Muslims and their religious icons!

Let's challenge Itty Abraham to open up his mind to problems in Islamic societies and write as candidly as he does about Hindus- if he has the balls!

Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 10, 2004 12:00 AM
7
Raghu,

India Abroad's articles are usually not available on-line - so, the best bet is to google for Prof. Ramesh Rao's article on the same - try the cache, if the main copy is inaccessible.

Try http://www.indiastar.com/closepet1.htm...also, some other interesting fasct, such as...

- one of the people distributing the petition against Ram Madhav is a known sympathizer of the Taliban (quoted indirectly in TOI's article on this issue)

- some leftists wre so determined to oppose Ram Madhav, that they decided to collect evidence to "deny cross-border terrorism" - a nice little piece of anti-national activity

Arindam Banerji
Sunnyvale, USA
Oct 10, 2004 12:00 AM
6
This subject is of little interest to me, except in observing the consistent quality of OUTLOOK's parody of journalism. Lets see Sirohi's brand:

"Should an audience of graduate students have been subjected to the mishmash Madhav grandly called historical facts without the benefit of context and counterpoints?

No, said more than 150 academics teaching South Asian studies around the US.
They signed a petition questioning the decision to invite Madhav in the first place. The petition zoomed through email boxes, getting weightier before Madhav travelled from one campus to another. "

Wow! The email ZOOMED - or didn't it really FIZZLE, Seema? I seem to remember that a couple of years back a Commie-Paki lie campaign sponsored by OUTLOOK's masters, got over 300 such "South Asia Faculty" to tag along like rats behind the Pied Piper of Hamelin - and all jumped over the cliff and showed themselves to be intellectual zeroes.

Now what happened? Half of them got half-brains enough to stay away from this Zooming, Weighty Petition, Seema?

And, lets see, these Protectors of Free Speech want to prevent their graduate students from being "subjected" to the RSS neta's speeches? Was this seminar mandatory for these students, or did they have the option of sleeping elsewhere?

And, all said and done, what was the substance of the article? Ram Madhav visited several US campuses, gave speeches, his friends trashed the Commie-Pakis' posters and fliers (what else were they than trash?) and the 150 South Asia creeps sent petitions Zooming through the internet, gathering weight all the time (must be relativistic mass gain for those electrons, or did the electrons develop big backsides like OUTLOOK writers?)

This article might as well have been titled: " Dogs bark at Ram Madhav as he goes about his business."
The writer's silliness comes through loud and clear.

Pervez Kutta
London, UK
Oct 10, 2004 12:00 AM
5
Arindam,

Could you please give a URL to where Abraham says that "Hindus cannot be trusted"?

If what you say he wrote is correct, then Itty Abraham is guilty precisely of what he is quoted by Steaming Sirohi as saying: putting layers and layers of evilness, albeit on Hindus.
Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Oct 10, 2004 12:00 AM
4
Seema,

One of the problems is that the people making the criticisms in your article have been involved in exactly the same thing that they accuse the RSS of - for example, Itty Abraham, much like the Seema Mustafa's of this world feel comfortable hiding behind their minority status, to flaunt their bigotry.

Prof Ramesh Rao, writing about one of Itty Abraham's typically vicious and bigoted writing says:

"Itty Abraham's article, in which he baldly and boldly proclaims that Hindus cannot be trusted is an exercise more in disingenuity than a clear
analysis of the past and prevailing conditions in the "nuclear arena." Let me point out, as I did in a letter to India Abroad on June 6th, that
Itty Abraham's characterization of Hindus as untrustworthy would have sent alarm bells ringing in any editorial office. That it did not do
so at India Abroad shows how easy it is to attack Hindus than any other group, religious or otherwise"

So, Itty Abraham would obviously be the right person to comment on bigotry.

Finally, whats wrong about talking about Pakistani and Bangladeshi pushes into India - jusdging by your writing, you have enough evidence about this?

Remember, the summary of what he said about Bangladesh is not very different from what Buddhadeb has been saying.

After all, judging by post-partition data - Pakistan and Bangladesh should have had more than 60 million minorities, probably as many as 70M. Today, in reality they have about 17M - dont you think that needs to be discussed, especially when hordes of well-qualified madrassah elites well trained in genocide are pouring into WB and Assam from Bangladesh everyday. Please take a look at what the regional press in Assam is reporting about this influx - the data is overwhelming.

You tend to write well - please do not not pull a Prem Shankar Jha and let political correctness overwhelm national interests.
Arindam Banerji
Sunnyvale, USA
Oct 09, 2004 12:00 AM
3
In the end, Seema Sirohi is self-destructing herself before readers. All hissing and no substance. Borrowing from the quote she sourced from Abraham, I think that a slicker person than Sirohi would have found a sophisticated way of slinging mud at Ram Madhav, instead of deliriously frothing at the mouth from the word go.

When people do hatchet jobs at someone's behest, they overdo it, kind of like to say: "see, I'm giving bang for your buck." The guy who wants to shed a tear for the Taliban should note: you outsourced the job to the wrong hack. Hysterical attacks only end up generating suspicion of the attacker and sympathy for the target of the attack.

Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Oct 09, 2004 12:00 AM
2
Let Ram Madhavan speak his mind, and let his audience judge him The Americans are smart enough to decide. Let Seema understand that banning anti Islamic views is futile.

That means she would ban Berlusconi, Dutch
and Belgian politicians as also many people in Denmark who are hostile to her religion. Fantastic nerve for trying.We are not liveing in Pakistan but in the western world where we still have free speech. And she should remember
she is useing this free speech to publish her views.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 09, 2004 12:00 AM
1
The demonisation project of the communist academics against the RSS started with Nehru allowing them to occupy the commanding heights of our higher educational system and research institution. Today, this gang of ‘intellectuals’ has come to dominate all our media, educational and research institutions and their ideas have again colonized the minds of millions of Indians. What these communist academics along with the Muslim intellectuals of AMU (the JNU-AMU combine) have done to the Indian mind is far worse than what colonialist writers ever did. The writers of the colonial period like Wilson Jones, John Briggs, Elliot and Dawson were seminal writers who practically reconstructed India’s past and gave it us.

The RSS began in 1925 by Dr. Hedgewar due to the inadequacy of the Gandhian non-violence strategy to deal with the muslim mobilization and murders of the muslim league. The RSS mobilized the Hindus to hit back. This was a legitimate action but the communist in independent India have articulated the growth of the muslim league and the RSS as the ‘rise of communal forces in Indian politics’. They do not speak the truth that the vast majority of the Indian muslim had nothing to do with the national movement and came together with the congress only once to save the ottoman clergy of Turkey with the khilafat movement. Turkey was obviously closer to their hearts than their own motherland which provides them with their bread and butter.

The support of the RSS were only miniscule, only in areas were the hindus were besieged and needed to organize themselves to face the murderous attacks of the muslims, compared to the League, who got 95% of the muslim vote during the elections of 1945-46, fighting the elections under the platform of Pakistan. The genocidal violence unleashed in Pakistan and Bangladesh both before and after partition to cleanse the Hindus is still articulated by the communist controlling our educational and research institutions as ‘partition riots’ and not as the Hindu holocaust, which it actually was.

The story here only testifies to the fact of the unprecedented success of the demonization project enforced by the communists and nothing else.
Pankaj Shrivastav
bombay, india
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