A Plea To The Press
Please Spare Us The AIMPLB Edicts
The AIMPLB is not a representative body; nor is it a democratic body. It created itself, and its members have held on to their seats to serve their own agendas. It is about time the Indian press gave Indian Muslims a break.
The latest inanity from the head of the All India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB)—on family planning, no less—only goes to show how irrelevant the organization is and how irresponsible its president can be. As the press reports had it:: "Board president Maulana Rabey Hasan Nadvi said "Allah ne jiska paida hona tai kiya hai usko rokna theek naheen hai" (It is not proper to stop the birth of those whom God has destined to be born).
 
 
‘Lords and masters’ don’t seek to enlighten people, and far be it from them to try and lighten people’s burden. Their only concern is that they must appear in full and sole authority—all the time.
 
 
He termed adopting family planning as "gair zaroori" (not necessary).'

I am not surprised that 'our lord and master'—for that is what maulana means—did not think it fit to mention even incidentally what the Prophet of Islam neither approved nor prohibited but left to people's judgment, namely 'azl or coitus interruptus. 'Lords and masters' don't seek to enlighten people, and far be it from them to try and lighten people's burden. Their only concern is that they must appear in full and sole authority—all the time. And so when the president was reminded of his lapse, he reportedly said that while 'azl was allowed in Islam it was the 'new technologies' that were not allowed.

I wish the reporter had then asked: what about the new technologies that save people's lives? Are they also 'prohibited innovations'? Are you telling Muslims not to seek benefit from them because 'Allah ne jiska marna tai kiya hai usko rokna theek naheen hai' (It's not proper to stop the death of those whom God has destined to die)? I doubt if any of these 'lords and masters' put that much trust in God. (Only mystics and other true men of God do that.) Medicine and medical treatment of the latest kind, the maulanas will assuredly declare, are most zaruuri. And, no doubt, they will then remind us of the Prophet's remark to a bedouin that he should first tether his camel securely and only afterward put his trust in God. Heads they win, tails we lose, that's the way it goes with these learned men.

In any case, I truly fear there was a different motive behind the Maulana's statement, and a mischievous one, to say the least.

 
 
The chief reason Wahabism has not so blatantly showed itself in India is the secular stance of the Indian state, no matter how faulty the latter may seem sometimes. But this sectarian poison remains a strong undercurrent in the Muslim religious elite.
 
 
According to the newspaper report, 'When Maulana Rabey's attention was drawn towards the success of family planning in Iran, he said there was no need for Muslims in India to follow the edicts of other countries. "Muslims in Iran are different from Muslims in India," he said.' Now the letter urging the Board to give some consideration to the issue of family planning was written by Maulana Kalbe Sadiq, a Shi'ah scholar who lives only about three miles away from the Nadva where Maulana Rabey resides. Is he not Indian and Muslim enough for the President of the AIMPLB? Much to my regret and shame I fear that may well be the case. And had the rector of Nadva been more forthcoming he could possibly have said: 'Iranians are Shi'ahs, and I am a Sunni; I do not regard them as Muslims.' He would still have been perverse but, nevertheless, honest to himself.

As is well-known to those who read Urdu, many people associated with the Nadva have long engaged in anti-Iran and anti-Shi'ah polemic and propaganda. For example Maulana Manzoor Nu'mani, who was much encouraged by Maulana Ali Mian, the former rector of Nadva and the present rector's uncle. The latter even wrote a highly admiring introduction to the former's most vitriolic book, Irani Inqilab, Imam Khomeini aur Shi'iyat. Thanks to Saudi patronage, Wahabism of the worst kind has spread in South Asia, and since 1979 it has included a prominent trend of anti-Iran and anti-Shi'ah sentiment.
 
 
We must never forget that AIMPLB brought itself into prominence by blocking the pitifully small financial relief that India’s Supreme Court had granted to an elderly Muslim divorcee, Shah Bano.
 
 
Its horrific results have been evident in Pakistan for some time. The chief reason it has not so blatantly showed itself in India is the secular stance of the Indian state, no matter how faulty the latter may seem sometimes. But this sectarian poison remains a strong undercurrent in the Muslim religious elite, even in such a seemingly peaceful movement as the Tablighi Jama'at. 'Live and let live' is what most Muslims, like most of their compatriots, follow in their daily lives. Sadly, it's a rare religious 'leader' who does so now.

***

We must never forget that AIMPLB brought itself into prominence by blocking the pitifully small financial relief that India's Supreme Court had granted to an elderly Muslim divorcee, Shah Bano. The Board succeeded because Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi and a coterie of people around him chose political expediency over social justice. (The same bunch then unlocked the doors in Ayodhya, thus opening a second Pandora's box.) Since then the Board has gained a totally misplaced importance only due to the attention it has received from the press.

This fact cannot be overemphasized. Should the reporters stop going to the Board for a change, it would immediately become clear that Indian Muslims have diverse—in some matters, even disparate—ways and opinions.

 
 
Muslim religious trusts and schools have abysmally failed to serve Muslim women despite the fact that women constitute almost one half of the population whose support these institutions draw upon. Does that bother ‘our lords and masters’? Shouldn’t it?
 
 
They go about their lives peaceably just like other Indians, and when they need guidance in any matter where they feel a religious perspective is needed they ask someone locally. They then follow or reject the given advice much as they feel. They do not rush to the Board for guidance. A vast majority of Indian Muslims may not even know that it exists.

The ratio of women to men in the Muslim population in India is roughly 9 to 10. We hear ad nauseum from these Muslim 'leaders', particularly from those who sit in Delhi, that Muslims should be given representation in every sphere—e.g. jobs, college admissions, and legislative seats—proportionate to their percentage in India's population. The same people, however, turn mute if it is suggested that Muslim women should be given proportionate representation in all Muslim waqf authorities and educational institutions, and, yes, on the AIMPLB too.

After all most of the issues the maulanas of the Board pontificate upon expressly effect women. If questioned, they will no doubt respond, 'There are not enough qualified women.' Unfortunately the press never asks these men: whose fault is it, and what steps have you, the masters of Deoband and Nadva, taken to ameliorate the situation? How many Muslim women have you trained in religious learning? To put it bluntly, Muslim religious trusts and schools have abysmally failed to serve Muslim women despite the fact that women constitute almost one half of the population whose support these institutions draw upon.

 
 
Now any non-adult female can be given away in marriage by her father. In fact, even an adult female cannot now give or deny her consent directly but must have a vakil to represent her.
 
 
Does that bother 'our lords and masters'? Shouldn't it?

***


How obdurate the Board has been becomes clear if we examine its act of commission concerning Muslim marriages and its act of omission concerning the use of mosque spaces by Muslim women. The first issue is very much in the news presently in India and not for the first time, while the second is less so. It is quite prominent an issue now in the United States. However, the issue first appeared twice in Kerala a few years back, then came up in Tamil Nadu and also in Lucknow. It is likely to become more prominent with the passage of time.

As is well known, marriage in Islam is a legal contract and not a sacrament. It does not entail a declaration that the two persons have been 'joined by God' and therefore none should separate them. The ceremony requires neither the presence of a mulla nor the premises of a mosque. The only requirements are that the two parties must consent to the marriage freely, and that the groom should pay a mehr or bride-money to the bride—not to her parents—before the marriage is consummated.

Needless to say, in the name of 'tradition' or 'local practice'—why do they always favour the groom?—the two requirements have been diluted beyond recognition to serve the purpose of Muslim patriarchy. Now any non-adult female can be given away in marriage by her father.

 
 
Remember, they originally came together exclusively as a band of men, and only to protect a man from paying to his divorced wife what the law of the nation required.
 
 
In fact, even an adult female cannot now give or deny her consent directly but must have a vakil to represent her. As for the requirement of the mehr being paid directly and promptly to the bride, it can now be delayed, paid only partially, 'forgiven' by the wife, set too low to be of any use, set too high to be realistically payable, or simply litigated out of existence. Don't try asking the Board members about mehr; it doesn't interest them, though it is of course critical for one-half of the Muslim population they allegedly represent. It is the male prerogative of 'giving' a divorce that is of utmost concern to 'our lords and masters' of the Board.

Remember, they originally came together exclusively as a band of men, and only to protect a man from paying to his divorced wife what the law of the nation required. Later the Board expanded itself grudgingly and included a handful of women. However it continued to act the way it always had. It took its own sweet time to discuss a uniform and equitable marriage contract, then scuttled what the efforts of those few women had brought about. Here is how the logic of these 'lords and masters' worked: it is not very nice when men divorce their wives by saying talaq three times but they must have the right to do so; on the other hand, women may have a legal right in Islam to get a divorce—note that they can only 'get' a divorce, not 'give' a divorce—it won't be very nice to make that right actually enforceable through the marriage contract!

***

Let us now turn to the second issue: should Muslim women participate in congregational prayers and occupy mosque spaces on an equal footing with Muslim men? Muslims do not need a priest or imam to fulfill the fundamental requirement of five daily prayers. Any believer can pray by herself or himself. However, Muslims are urged to say the required prayers collectively—in jama'a. Collective prayers led by an imam are considered more rewarding religiously. According to some hadith, twenty-five times more rewarding. The imam, however, can be any ordinary Muslim who is perceived by the group or congregation as being more virtuous or 'knowing more of the Qur'an' than the rest.

In other words, no specifically ordained or trained person is required. Unlike Christianity, there are neither monks nor priests in Islam. Muslim women of the Prophet's time freely attended the prayers in his mosque. At his most restrictive he is reported to have said: 'Do not prevent your women from visiting the mosques, but their houses are better for them.' In another hadith, he reportedly said: 'Allow women to visit the mosque at night.' Clearly the women of Medina attended the prayers in the Prophet's mosque without any restriction. Were they assigned a permanent separate space within that mosque? I doubt if that was the case. After all, Muslim men and Muslim women even now perform the rituals of Hajj side by side—the women with fully exposed faces—both groups observing the same rules of modesty and humility. What for centuries has been allowed in God's 'House' could not have been prohibited in the Prophet's mosque.

According to a well-known hadith preserved in the Sunan of Abu Dawud and accepted as valid by all Sunni Muslims, the Prophet was asked by a woman, Umm Waraqah, if she could have the call for prayers said at her house, i.e. if she could hold congregational prayers at her house. Apparently she lived at some distance from the Prophet's mosque in Medina. The Prophet not only gave her the permission but also asked her to lead the inmates of her house in prayers. The 'inmates' of her house included at least two males, the muaddhin who made the call and the one slave who later killed her. This is what the late great scholar Dr. Muhammad Hamidullah had to say about this hadith:

'I am not prepared to accept that [Umm Waraqah] was made the imam of only the women. The word ahl used in the hadith is not restricted to mean women alone. [She had a muaddhin and several slaves] Obviously the slaves performed their prayers with her as the imam. In short her imamat was not for women alone, it was also for men.'

We also know that two of the Prophet's wives, Hazrat 'A'isha and Hazrat Umm Salama, are reported to have held congregational prayers—though exclusively for women—which they separately led. These congregational prayers must have been performed within the Prophet's mosque, for that is where the two venerable ladies lived. (I was pleasingly surprised to read recently that the late Maulana Maududi's wife used to hold congregational prayers for women at their house in Karachi, where she led the prayers and read the khutba.)

It would appear then that the existing severe exclusion of women from mosque spaces developed later. It could have been due to any number of reasons which are really not of any concern. The question for us is: are women to be denied those spaces now and forever? A couple of years back, a group of women in Kerala raised this issue twice and, unless I remember wrongly, in one case they were able to prevail. I would, however, put a more modest question before the dignitaries of the Board: if congregational prayers are indeed religiously more rewarding then what have you done to ensure that Muslim women of your own acquaintance and neighborhood obtain that reward? I would be the first to applaud them if they have in fact held or encouraged similar all-women congregational prayers at their homes and at the mosques they control.

***

One thing, however, I am quite sure of. Despite their piously urging Muslim males to pray together and thus garner a greater reward, these 'lords and masters' of the Board will no doubt regard my question as 'un-Islamic', and the idea of Muslim females having the same right as the males a sinful bid'at or 'innovation'—the worst abuse in their rich vocabulary. That is what they always do, for that is all they seem to have learned to do. They only command, deny, reject, or denounce. Don't expect them to share, co-operate, compromise, and give-and-take. Theirs is not an examined life; they believe only in unexamined acceptance, both for themselves and others.

The other strong belief they seem to share is in the exceptional quality of their genes. Knowledge and authority are hereditary traits and male prerogatives for these 'lords and masters'. Consider the Nadva itself. A school started by an organization of Muslim scholars from all over India, since 1915 it has mostly been controlled by the members of just one family. Will the present rector care to inform the Muslim community what effort he or his three elders ever made to educate Muslim women in religious knowledge? Are not Muslim males and females together enjoined to seek 'ilm? And shouldn't an 'alim be fair and equitable in sharing his knowledge with the members of his community?

Again a cry will most likely go up: no, that will be a bid'at. We will be told that religious learning comes in two kinds, of which only one, that of a very limited nature, is necessary for women to fulfill their 'assigned' role in the world. Sadly, but not surprisingly, with regard to the propagation of even that limited 'ilm to Muslim women the record of the Nadva and the assorted individuals controlling the Board is shamefully poor. Does that bother them? Not at all. They have greater things to worry about, such as making sure that an elderly Muslim woman should not get any aid under the 'prevention of
indigence' clauses of the Indian Penal Code.

The AIMPLB is not a representative body; nor is it a democratic body. It created itself, and its members have held on to their seats to serve their own agendas. More ominously over the years it has tried to expand its self-proclaimed authority—vide its brief flirting with the perilous idea of an out-of-court settlement of the Babri Mosque issue. In its existence the Board has done nothing to improve the lot of Muslim women who constitute roughly one-half of the community. Many of its members have little individual distinction of their own, and are there only because they gained some hereditary position. It is about time the Indian press gave Indian Muslims a break. Ignoring the Board may be best, but that may not be possible. In that case, the press should give the AIMPLB only the due it actually deserves within the secular polity of the Indian nation—one among many Muslim organizations and not one bit more authoritative than others.


C. M. Naim is Professor. Emeritus, South Asian Languages & Civilizations, University of Chicago

 
Daily Mail
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
60
I have met many Muslims and Hindus who have settled in Australia from long time. Most of them have been compelled by their children to shun their culture and religion. These West born children have no religion and are confused between East and West. They have adopted the Western culture and have run away with Whites or Blacks to show to their peers that they are more liberal than them. Their parents did not like it initially and tried to stop it but failed as the Government gives protection to such violators of human norms in the name of equality and liberty. Thus the parents have no choice. First they stop visiting India because their relatives would like to know the names of the spouses of their children that may be Fredrick or Nancy. Secondly, they can't blame their own children due to fear from Government but take their anger out by blaming their own culture and religion.

Prof Naim seem to be such a spoilt parent as well.
Humaira Saifi
Sydney, Australia
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
59
To the Executive Editor, Outlook.com

http://www.anandabazar.com/arch ive/1041013/13uttar4.htm

Here is a Wonderful Story of a Poor Muslim Richshaw-puller from North Bengal. He didn't marry off his daughter because groom Party didn't agree to register the Marriage, and inisting ONLY on Nikha-Nama. The poor Guy is a Hero.

Will you please ask Javed Akhtar, Shabana Azmi to attend, facilitate this hero. Will Javed Akhtar write a Script and make a Movie out of this Wonderful Story? I bet that would be the greatest service to Indian Muslims..A picture worth million times more powerful than pages, and pages of discussion.

Please let us know.
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
58
And Yes...This discussion is happening in the FULL Glare of the World.

Can Anyone, contact Javed Akhtar, Sabana Azmi..and ask them to ring Anandabzar office, and plan a visit to that Rickshwa-Puller at his Native in North Bengal? Is anybody Taking this Challenge?
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
57
Tabs..

I salute that poor (muslim) Rickshaw puller from North Bengal, who cancelled marriage of her daughter because groom-Party wouldn't Sign in the "Marriage Registry" paper as per law of the Land. And you, Muslim Intelligentia, thinking since time of Syed Ahmed are just BLUFFING. I want to See Javed Akhtars, Sabana Azmis tomorrow at that Village..Will they Visit? Will you arrange?

You (and Muslim Intelectuals) support Modern Education (Govt Run Schools). Very Good.

Can you furnish any Record that Leading Muslims Intellectuals approached Govt to open Standard Govt Run Schools in predominantly Muslim Areas? Or they have urged Govt to upgrade existing Madrassas (syllabus, management etc) to bring them at par with Main-Stream. Even from a "liberal" state Like West Bengal? I am not aware, are You Tabs?

Practically its the Opposite. Javed Akhtars didn't speak. But Members of WB Madrassa Board recently asked to setup a "separate employment board" for Madrassa Education, which the State Education Minister Kanti Biswas shot down. When Buddha Bhattarjee, CM asked for upgrading syllabus, Jamat-E-Islami brought out Lakhs of Students at Calcutta Road ! Did Javed Akhtars protest?
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
56
Tabs
______

Leaving Gujerat aside how are muslims percieved in Europe and the USA. How are they faring in the field of education and work.Introspection is in order.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
55
Tanmoy Ghosh:

You did not read my mails. I, as many Indian Muslims, support modern English-medium education for Indian Muslim children. Can't you understand simple language?

Like your other right-wing friends, you very easily attack personalities, bereft of ideas that you are. You cannot see Indian Muslims develop. And when they are confined to the ghettoes by your Modi-like governmnets, you blame Muslims for lacking the political will to contribute to nation-building.

Before spitting out your idea-stricken venom, inspect your own backyard. Nation building cannot be done by hitting out at the minorities. Right-wingers of any hue are the true anti-nationals.
Tabs
Goettingen, germany
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
54
Tabs..You now Chicken Out ! You, Muslim Intellectuals' Little Secret is out of the Box. You folks will pursue Modern Education for yourself/your family. But suggest Madrassas for Poor Muslims...
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
53
Anima Sarkar:

>>Which school, colleges you attended to become successful.<<

I do not reveal personal details on public forums.

Be more imaginative!!
Tabs
Goettingen, germany
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
52
Tabs,

You didn't answer me. Which school, colleges you attended to become successful.
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
51
Anima Sarkar:

Your long and winding posts seemed like an endless diatribe against Muslim intellectuals advocating change. To digress, any right-wing institution, Hindu or Muslim, is in direct confrontation with national interests. Your posts smack of hypocrisy in that you support one right-wing group against another.

Your long posts could not convey your points clearly. Many Muslims are working towards the change in the syllabi of Madarsas. Muslim children are being encouraged to go to ‘secular’ schools.

Your condescending attitude is detrimental and counter-productive to say the least. Indian Muslims do not have to present their patriotic credentials to anyone. As for change in the Muslim society, you should start discouraging right-wingers from the other side of the divide from destroying Muslim properties and businesses if they become economically strong and get into a position of sending their children to secular ‘English’ medium schools! Anima Sarkar, learn to look at your own faults too.
Tabs
Goettingen, germany
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
50
Hi guys!

I am back once again.The more and more you write bringing your typing skills and desperation to the fore;the more and more the muslims would derive the sadistic pleasure!It is like venacular,"ulte ghagarpe paani" The more the reasons you give displaying your analytical abilities for their backwardness,the more the clues they get on how to screw the rest of the hapless indians. Because these are the very reasons they will use as a blackmailing tool against you.

They have understood the number game in 1947. There is blood on their teeth,and unless they carve out some more land out of india,they will not rest in piss.

Someone on the forum was outraged by my sentiments.He does not realize that there is fire under his a*se which is about to become a volcano.'Laatonke bhoot baatonse nanhi manate' is the only american prescription applicable here.Take it or lump it!
vinodbevda
birmingham, uk
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
49
Altaf Hussain in Daily Times (http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=sto ry_14-10-2004_pg7_34). Interesting read !

Partition weakened Muslims in subcontinent: Altaf

* Future of Indian immigrants in Pakistan remains under question mark

Staff Report

KARACHI: Muttahida Qaumi Movement leader Altaf Hussain said on Wednesday the partition of the Indian Subcontinent in 1947 weakened the strength of Muslims and started the turmoil through which they were now passing.

“At present at least 400 million of the Subcontinent’s population are Muslims and the Partition divided them,” Mr Hussain said at a literary evening celebrated with Indian poet Manzar Bhopali at the party’s London secretariat.

He said no government in united India could have been formed without the consent of these 400 million Muslims, had they been united. “But the Subcontinent’s partition divided this huge strength,” he said.

“We cannot visit the graves of our elders,” unlike the Muslims who stayed in India, he said. He complained despite the passage of 57 years after the Partition, the future of the offspring of the Indian immigrants was still under a question mark, and they were being called by derogatory names.

Urdu-speakers who were born on Pakistani soil “are also not accepted as sons of the soil and their patriotism is doubted.”

Those who gave the most sacrifices for the creation of a separate homeland for Indian Muslims were called traitors, he added. He said the ancestors of Urdu-speaking people had left their homeland and migrated to Sindh, and now Sindh was their motherland.

“Sindh is our homeland and will strive for Sindh’s rights and will never migrate to another place,” he said.

“Bengalis were 99 per cent loyal for Pakistan and they were called traitors. G M Syed voted in favour of the resolution for the creation of Pakistan and he was also dubbed a traitor and enemy of the state,” he said. He went on: “Our ancestors created Pakistan and sacrificed hundreds of thousands of lives people to see their dream fulfilled, they left everything behind,” he said.

“Those who opposed the creation of Pakistan, supported the British Raj and were informants against the freedom fighters are given certificates of patriotism,” he said. “Our people were massacred for raising the voice for their rights and a state operation was launched against us, which killed more than 15,000 youth,” Mr Hussain said.

He added that areas in Sindh’s urban centres were cordoned and women and the elderly were subjected to insulting behaviour during the operation.

“We were not against Pakistan and are not against it now. What we want is that we should be considered equal citizens and the rulers should end injustices against us,” he said.

On the occasion, the MQM leader, who often tries his hand at versification, read out a poem he has written, criticising the Partition. Titled, “Ye kaisi taqsim hui,” it read:
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
48
Its written as : "If you can read bengali, please read it, else take help of a Bengali friend. Bride party insisted on Nikah-Nama. Ultimately the marriage was called off by father of the bride."

Sorry for the Typo. It should be : GROOM party insisted on Nikah-nama.

In short, the story is: A poor Rickshaw Puller from North Bengal Village wants to get the marriage of his daughter "registered". But the groom party opposed it. Ultimately, the marriage is called off, and the Young Muslim lady goes back to School.
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
47
Dear Tabrez J Siddiqui,

8. This debate has moved much further in last 10 years in India. What you folks are stuck at is: Blindly opposing BJP/RSS, and worst in the name of "secularism". Sir Meghnad Desai, wrote in the Indian Express lately that: In India, Secularism means opposing BJP and little bit more. That's a lot from a person of Meghnad Desai's stature. You need to read manjor commentators like Partha Chatterjee, Ashis Nandy etc who analyzed these from unique perspective. Neither you are helping "secular" cause, nor you are for ingredients of Strong Nation State: like education, population, equal rights of its citizen. Even a liberal analyst like RamChandra Guha wouldn't agress with these Left fundamentalists.

9. I come from West Bengal, and you may not like what I have expressed candidly so far, because its so much against common "left" wisdom. But let me tell you my friend: Under development of Muslims are biggest problem in India. And you, Muslim intelligentia is solely responsible for it. Today, in Anandabazar, we have a moving story, where a Poor Muslim Rickshaw-Puller from North-Dinajpur District wanted to marry off his daughter after getting it properly registered. (http://www.anandabazar.com/13uttar4.htm). If you can read bengali, please read it, else take help of a Bengali friend. Bride party insisted on Nikah-Nama. Ultimately the marriage was called off by father of the bride. The Poor daughter now wants to go back to the school, and study further. Where does that Rickshaw puller got so much of strength? Why Javed Akhtars, Naims don't encourage them?

10. Ultimately, its you folks who has to decide on this. Can you continue to send your children and devise madrassas for Poor Muslims? Is Islam's ultimately goal is to discriminate, perpetuate oppression against Women? The Great Indian Dream Express has left the station some 100 years back during the days of Indian renaissance. You didn't board it, and caused the partition. Today there is a unbelievable synergy in thinking of a Tamilian, Bihari, Bengali, Maharashtrian..dream of a strong family, India. This is missing amonst Muslims.

11. Did you notice Karunanidhi (Great tamil politician)'s stand on Savarkar? Isn't bit odd when it comes from most authentic anti-Brahmin, Anti North Indian party in India? You might have missed another equally important news from Sri Lanka. Tamil Muslims in SriLanka are now aspiring SEPARATE seat in Lankan peace Discussion. They don't claim to be Tamilians any more, but Muslims first. I bet, this will have major impact on all of south Indian politics. You folks have done it Again ! There are leading Muslim educationists who envision introducing Urdu to all Muslims in India, irrespective of whether he is a Bengali Muslim or a Tamilian one. Benagli/tamilian Muslims don't have anything to do with Urdu.

These mind-sets are most dangerous, and detrimental to Muslims' interest itself.
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
46
Dear Tabrez J Siddiqui,

6. What you need to understand is: there is a unmistakable change in India towards a Strong Nation state. There is nothing wrong in it, because India is basically a Nation-State. Education is probably the most important part in it. Anything which is detrimental to the national interest are surely not welcome. Are you following the proceedings of Supreme Court on two Child Norm?

7. Bangalore, Indian High-tech Capital's both Members of Parliament are from BJP. Does it say something to you? You will find few people as tolerant as common folks from Karnataka. Uma Bharati's claim of "true patriotism" are questioned. Fine. But, there is no question that activities of Uma Bharathi represent a huge change in concept of "Ideal Womanhood" of Hindutwa. They are not ONLY "Ideal-Wife" of RSS even 30 years back. These Women can agitate, take part in political campaign, Work and most importantly in Euqal footing with Men in Every respect. How long you will be able to hold Muslim Women under Burkha? As Uma Bharathi, a "Dalit" Lady is taking center Stage, Muslim parents are sending their daughters with "burkha" in a Madhya Pradesh School. Did you notice the news item of yesterday? (http://www.telegraphindia.com/1041013/asp/nation/ story_3876610.asp). No Space...
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
45
dear Tabrez J Siddiqui,

You wrote: "...in India is to revolutionise the Madarsa education system". You are an incredible person who cannot see simple Secular logic. Its Education which determines how successful a Kid would be, and it has nothing to do with religion-Centric Education like Madrassas. In fact a vibrant, educated, economically self-sufficient Muslim Society (or any religionist) can Protect their religion much better.

1. Indian Education system is one of the best in the world. The drawback, if any, is not of quality but funds, over-crowded. Why you bent on "reinventing the Cycle" by another Education System, Madrassas? Shouldn't we implement a single Govt Sponsored educational System for all Indians?

2. Tell us candidly, which Schools, colleges you attended and ultimately became a successful Indian Muslim now working ( or settled) in Germany, which we all Indians are proud about. Where do you send your kids for education? Or Mr. Naim, the writer of this article? Or Shahruk Khan, Shabana Azmi, Javed Akhtar? Or those Madrassa Board Members from West Bengal? Doesn't all of them send their children to English Medium/Govt Run "secular" schools? But incredibly, all of you will vouch for a separate, discriminatory educational system for Poor Muslims who live in Villages/slums. Can we think of any worst kind of "discrimination" anywhere in the world? What do you say, Mr. Tabrez?

3. I can never imagine a Indian Hindu or Christian living in the West (obviously successful) talking about primary Job of modernising syllabus of Hindu/Christian Religious Schools. Those are in private domain, run and managed by Charitable trusts. Do you understand the difference now? And why Muslims are way behind in Human Development Indexes?

4. There was a Wonderful Article in the Newyork Times in recent months on changing face of Indian Education (will send the link if I can find it). The journalist visited remote villages in most under-developed states in India: like Bihar, UP, Madhya Pradesh etc. He saw the parents who barely earn Rs. 2000 per Month are sending their Children to Private "English" medium Schools which has mushroomed all over the place. Some times they spend 30-50% of their earning on Kid's Schooling. Because, those poor parents understand, English, Education, Uniform, Strict discipline are ingredients for future success of their sons and daughters. I don't think anybody told those poor Rickshaw-Pullers from Munger, or villager from UP/Madhya Pradesh about these. They kept their eyes open, analyzed and understood themselves. Its driven by manythings, and religion has NO place there.

5. Can you compare those hapless poors with Yourself, a educated, successful Indian Muslim working/Settled in Germany?
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Oct 14, 2004 12:00 AM
44
Mr.Tabrez,
Madrasas are not the problem.
They are only a symptom of the problem.
Ban them in totality! Any sensible person will recognize what the consequences of such an "educaton" are.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
43
Anima Sarkar
____________

Lots of facts, and info.

However after much soul searching, meandering and meditation , is that muslims in India will
not change. Not for a hundred years.They are boxed in by their religion, poverty and ignorance. Even the muslim ikons are no where
like the Hindu liberals, who suffer from a thousand doubts, and are plagued by guilt
about Gujerat, Ayodhya and many other fancied wrongs that their community has committed.

What do you do in the real world.

I am a chemical engineer , and now turned into
a manager of my investment company.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
42
Well Said..Anima.

These Muslim intelligentia, like Mr. Naim will NEVER speak for moderation AMONGST Muslim Masses where its required. Javed Akhtar will NEVER visit Villages of Murshidabad but lecture from Sahamat. Not only Education. Places after places where Muslims are becoming Majority (like in Murshidabad, Nadia in WB and other Areas in Assam, surely in Kerala), a Taliban Style justice system is taking root.

Hapless, poor Muslims are denied justice in the name of Illegal Shariat Court which are proliferating all over the place. In the local media, it spills over sometime, when one aggrieved party spills the beans.

Even a noted Thetre personality like Bibhas Sarkar wrote an Article in Anadabazar recently:
(1) Why ALL poll Grafitis in Calcutta & West Bengal must contain Gujrat?
(2) Why administration is doing NOTHING at proliferation of Illegal parallel justice System proliferating across Muslim areas
(3) Why are we Indians, especially Bengalis, never spoke about plight of non-Muslims in neighbouring Bangladesh
(4) Why we keep mum, when most Prominet Islamic Cleric from Calcutta calls for 1 Lakh Rs Inam to blacken face of Taslima?

And we go gaga over these Naims, Javed Akhtars..These folks are Never believe in Secularism. They believe in Muslim rights, even at the great cost which Muslim Poors are paying. Its a pasychological desease, I guess. As Naipaul said: Neurosis.
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, India
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
41
Anima Sarkar:

You are right when you indicate that the regressive Madarsa education is responsible for many of the ills of Indian Muslims. They are substandard and out of syn with reality. There is no political will to reform them. The primary task for any Muslim reformer in India is to revolutionise the Madarsa education system. It is a long process but the many people are working towards it. I am sure the changes will be there for all to see.

Tabrez J Siddiqui
Goettinge, Germany
Tabs
Goettingen, germany
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
40
great comments anima.I am impresssed especially by that detail about pranab vs cpm in murshidabad.Great arguments too.Naim will have no answer if it has to be a sensible one.Any outlook writers adopt the shoot(get paid) and scoot policy May be our friend Mr patel THE RSS HATER from USA can rebut you.That is if he dares to show his face again after the loss of face against the formidable reasoning of pankaj and ekadmi
j asgutd
madison, usa
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
39
To the Author, C.M. Naim.

9. Read this article from liberal Pakistani newspaper, daily news. Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy, noted Physicist has identified the biggest problem in Pakistan is Educational Syllabus. http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=stor y_13-10-2004_pg7_41

10. Had India been a Muslim majority country, you folks would have done the same thing with Education, what you did in Pakistan and now in Bangladesh.

11. Its basically Non-Muslims which are building India with the help of Modern Education, and underwriting Muslims' fanaticism. However, its now crossing all limits. You will send Kids to Madrassas, and end of the day complain they don't have Job oppurtunities ! And all others would have to agress to "reservation" for Muslims.

Mr. Naim...You must be the funniset man, we have ever seen. All tall-talk, but no action.
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
38
To the Author, C.M. Naim.

5. A study revealed that almost all members of West Bengal State Madrassa Board (obviously Muslims) send their children to normal Govt run schools where they learn Math, Science, English. But they will not allow antiquited syllabus of Madrassa Board to be Modernized. I bet its same with you as well. But you will still support Madrassa Education.

6. Even last Friday, Ex Chief Minister of Madhya Pradesh, Digvijay Singh met with Ulema Council in Mumbai. Did you protest?

7. You guys are the worst. You never learnt that Success has a very "secular" component, which is education. If I send my daughter to a Hindu religious School in Varanasi or Nabadwip, she will have same fate as that of the Madrassa Educated folks.

8. Now, please stop lecturing us. Spend some time and energy on upgrading the stock of Muslims, and then lecture us. Education, Population Policies, Rights of Women are definitely those areas where a "secular" state SHALL intervene. Just don't make it painful to you as well as others.
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
37
To the Author, C.M. Naim.

4. Now, you complain about Poor representation of Muslim in Jobs. What happened to Muslim in West Bengal, the most "secular" state in India? Muslims represent 25% of population. Jyoti Basu was Chief Minister for 25 years. Syed Nurul Hasan was Governor twice. What these two great men did? They did absolutely nothing as far as Madrassa Education is concerned, except raising the budget from 10 Crore to 300 Crore anually.

5. Why they didn't modernize the syllabus of Madrassas? Where were you Mr. Naim? Why students of Ramkrsihna Mission Schools almost invariably top all state exams, and IIT/IIMs? WHY CAN'T MADRASSAS FOLLOW THE SAME SYLLABUS AS RAMKRISHNA MISSION SCHOOLS?

6. At the end of almost 30 years of left Rule, in West Bengal, Muslims have less than 5% of Govt Jobs. Even less in New Economy Jobs. So, remedy is to be: reservation for Muslims at Jobs, Schools..Right, Sir? Isn't that what Dr. Irphan Habib said in essence?
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
36
To the Author, C.M. Naim.

1. You have discussed a real issue, but addressed it to the wrong forum. Instead of writing it to educated who browse pages of outlook.com, you should translate this article in all Indian languages, and distribute to villages, towns, cities where there are significant muslim population. Because those are the places where AIMPLB dictate the agenda, and not the pages of Outlook.

2. I know one person who tried to reason with Muslim masses on why Muslim Men-Women should have equal rights, virtues of Education. He is Abul Hasnat Khan, a CPM MP from Murshidabad District in West Bengal. He wrote a pamphlet some years back with contents similar to what you wrote here, and distributed it amongst common Muslim masses. You know the price Abul Hasnat Khan had to Pay? During last General Election, Congress colluded with local Ulema Councils, and branded him as anti-islamic. Want to know who was the Congress candidate against Mr. Khan? Yes, Pranab Mukherjee, current defence Minister. I bet CPM also doing the same thing in lots of other places against Congress/BJP.

3. Its you, the Muslim Intelligentia who is the Biggest Culprit. Have you ever taken any drive, or even reasoned why Muslim women don't have equal rights as men. Or the pathetic education they get through madrassas.
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Oct 13, 2004 12:00 AM
35
In all comments by muslims on this website,
some things stand out.

Muslims do not apologise for their faith, and in fact are jolly proud of it, including the
amputations and the stoning of unfaithful women.
Muslims do not show remorse of the killings by members of their community, and in fact always put up a spirited defence.

Note the attitude of Hindus on the other hand.
After Godhra-quite overshadowed by now- Gujerat has become a night mare for them. I condemned this also, but for how many decades will the
guilt stricken Hindus talk about it.

In the recent history of the world, starting with communism, and then Nazism , North Korea,
Vietnamh, Cambodia and lastly the killing sprees by muslim terrorists, millions of people have died. In contrast the record of crimes committed by the Hindus is a drop in the ocean.

What is it that makes Hindus so timid, obsessed
by guilt for any and every thing, when the other
nations can commit crimes a hundred times more without batting an eye.

It must have something to do with our religion, where even killing a fly sets you back a couple of lives in the search for Nirwana.

The muslims learn as kids to kill animals
for their Id. A well known Pakistani journalist once mentioned this point in an article,describing how the blood was running on the streets of Istambul during Id.

How things have changed.Now innocent people are beheaded on TV. Have you read
any where of muslims feeling bad about this.
No, they allways come up with numerous arguments.

Its high time that Hindus stopped feeling so squeamish , when they are liveing in a cruel world, where they have normally borne all the brunt of violence.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 12, 2004 12:00 AM
34
Vinodbevda,

What a name! And what sentiments!

Listen to this:

All India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB) today questioned the rationale behind family planning, saying that population growth in the country had no impact on the economic growth.

"At the time of partition our population was about 35 crore and now its more than 100 crore but there has been a corresponding increase in the food production also," AIMPLB Spokesman Abdul Rehman Qureshi told reporters here. Qureshi was asked whether the AIMPLB would discuss the issue of family planning at its forthcoming annual session at Kozhikode from December 24.

He said that the basic presumption behind family planning is "faulty". He said this issue was earlier discussed by the Board in 1976 during the time of emergency and then "we had made it clear that we were against forcible family planning".

With 'enlightened' countrymen like these, who needs....... We will leave China way behind, if not in industrial growth,then at least in Population.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 12, 2004 12:00 AM
33
Hi guys!
The gaonwallas in indian villages have a remarkable quality of seemingly gullibly arguing with the citywallas from mumbai and driving them to nuts.What we are doing here is akin to that,viz,arguing with muslims and trying to modernise them.No matter what you do,they will never give up their dogmas.'Jis thalime khate hnai usime chhed karenge' is their motto.They will only understand the american ways of 'latonke bhoot baatonse nahi manate".Either rest of the indians increase their numbers in sheer desperation to tackle the muslim bogey, or get annihilated in a few years time.
vinodbevda
birmingham, uk
Oct 11, 2004 12:00 AM
32

Dear Adi,

You are right when you say that there is no need to rush to congratulate Zafar Iqbal without reading the fine print. Three other recent developments buttress your viewpoint; one, AIMPLB has introduced a model Nikaah-nama, which does not provide any right of divorce to the women. Second, AIMPLB is firm on its position about family planning, which its secretary said, is not sanctioned by Islam. Finally, the document is silent on Triple Talaq and seeks the intervention of Shariat court, Darul Qaza or a prominent cleric in case of Talaq.

This reinforces the inherent inequality and inferior status in immutable Quranic law for Muslim women. Any attempt by various govts to give women more freedom, greater autonomy, greater property rights and marriage rights have been vehemently opposed by conservative Islamists and mullahs, who insist that the reforms are against Islam.

So the bottom line is this: the more things change in Islam, the more they remain same.

Sorry for speaking too early.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 11, 2004 12:00 AM
31
And by the way, the same questioning of beliefs goes for Hindus too. When a fellow Hindu is discriminated by caste or community, it is OUR responsibility to pull the perpetrator down by the hair. If we remain silent, we are responsible for the same offences we accuse Muslims of.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Oct 11, 2004 12:00 AM
30
My dear friends,
In your mad rush to congratulate Mr.Zafar Iqbal on his moderation, you have not read what he says - "within the bounds of basic tenets of the religion" And those bounds are VERY CLEARLY DEFINED. A Woman's place is in the house, producing children and the husband may marry as many times as he wishes as long as he "does justice" to the wives. As to what this "justice" is in such an asymmetrical relationship where the woman has no independent means or experience of livelihood should be obvious to anybody. I am not expecting too many muslim women complaining that their husbands are not doing "justice" to them marrying others - simply because if they were thrown out, who is going to do "justice" to them? It is a self-perpetuating series of lies to keep women imprisoned as factories for more muslim fundamentalists.
The only solution is to question every single belief of theirs aggressively and point out the utter gibberish all over the "revealed book" that teaches contempt and violence towards humanity.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Oct 10, 2004 12:00 AM
29
I have read a comment from a muslim "moderate" in the Indian Express, saying that Islam is a revealed religion, and nothing about it can be changed. Therefore the billion plus muslims will
stick to their Koran code, the sharia and so forth.

So where is the difference between the extremist and the moderates. ?? It can only be in small
matters eg a muslim working for IBM will dress
and talk differently. He may even drink a glass of wine surreptiously, but otherwise he will be like his brethern in essential matters.

Now to turn to a real event in Denmark. Yesterday
the TV news informed us that 5 muslim immigrants had assaulted a lecturer in Carsten Neihburs Ins
for Arabic studies , because he as a non believer had quoted from the Koran. An isolated incident one could say , but which other people- followers of another religion-would behave in this manner.

A few muslims who have become more critical of their religion are now constantly harrassed and threatened for going against Islam.

So the question is whether Hindus should keep on turning the other cheek, or decide the society we want in India. As I have said it would be a society as in France, a secular society, but it would be more in tune with Hindu culture.The muslims have abandoned their original religion and culture,but they can not demand that we abandon it too , in order to make them feel more comfortable. Muslims in India should behave as Indians and not as Arabs from the middleast, which some of them appear to do.

This was the message from Sir Naipaul in a recent BBC interview in which he said muslims in Britain should learn English and English ways.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 10, 2004 12:00 AM
28

Dr. Zafar Iqbal of US,

Your comments are a welcome change from the usual blame-game and defensive stroke play by the Muslims and many ‘secularists’ who visit this forum.

This could be due to your geographical locational advantage, environmental effect, need to be ‘politically correct’ or your open and pragmatic thinking, I do not know but I wish to thank you nevertheless for your thoughts.

Unfortunately in India, the Muslim society is a prisoner of this vary AIMPLB and their anachronistic view-point applied to the most recent cases of questioning the validity of Triple Talaq, Gudiya case, Alimony to divorced Muslim women or even the so-called Model Nikaahnaama (which does NOT provide equal rights to women to give Talaq to their husbands) - the Muslim society has still NOT demonstrated and declared in unequivocal terms that they do NOT agree with AIMPLB and AIMPLB does NOT represent Muslims in India.

Under the circumstances, it is difficult to accept what you say, and I quote “Islam not only allows ijtehad, it encourages Muslims to broaden their horizon by educating themselves and bring reform to the system within the bounds of basic tenets of the religion.”

These words are good to hear but, sad to say, the reality is different as we do not see these thoughts being implementation in Muslim society in India, and probably in majority of Muslim societies throughout the world.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 10, 2004 12:00 AM
27

Tabs – Regarding Lebanon, it is you who needs to get the facts correct. The least you could have done was to go on the Internet and check the demographic shift in Lebanon population since 1910. In 1910, the Christian population was 70 % +, in 1932 the Christian population was 56 % and by 1970s, the percentage of Christian population has dipped below 45 %. Once Muslim became a majority, all kind of tensions crept it and some of these tensions were the basis of civil war that engulfed Lebanon in 1970s. And now there are demands for a more powerful Muslim voice in the government and thereby laying the foundation for gradual Islamization of Lebanon ( you will see this happening in next 10 years). You may want to visit Lebanon to see it for yourself what has become of this once beautiful country. Or better still, you speak to few Lebanese Christians in Germany to understand the realities of civil war in which Christians were killed and raped by the Muslim militia.
Deepak
Dubai, UAE
Oct 10, 2004 12:00 AM
26
Hi Madhu,

I understand what you are saying. I have had several arguments with muslims and it is a vain effort. They simply dont understand. For them Quran is most important text rather than freedom, jurisprudence, liberty.

They live in an entirely different world. But then what is the solution???. The solution as i see is to do the same thing to Islam as british did to hindus or as a matter of fact indians. Britishers created a group of brown sahibs, gave them power, and furthered there cause. They created people who simply formed a counterweight to Indian opposed to there cause and gave them immense power.

With muslims in India we have to do the same thing, that is create a group of people in muslims who hate there muslim tradition, who are craving for change(or are victim of muslim fundamentalism) and give them immense power in different sections of muslim society. Create a counter weight and a propoganda to show the truth of muslim fundamentalism. The argument is completely economic. As the people you will bring in will have economic and political reasons to be in your side. No religious argument of Quran will sway over them. As there well being will depend upon opposing fundamentalism in Islam(same thing what british did with brown sahibs).

This is what i call muslim moderates. There are lots of moderates and there are lots of muslims out there who are victims of mullahs and maulvis, like Shah Bano, or anybody, give them power, journalism power, literary power, civic power and make them question all the fundamentalist issues of Islam in India. This will be a very very hard work. May take about 15-20 years or even more. But then we will be able to create a counter weight to fundamentalist muslims. This will solve lots of Islam problem in India with just one thing.

BJP and RSS is not doing to correct thing. They are calling all the muslims as fundamentalists(which they are) but then they have to get some of them on there side(which they can do by not attacking Islam in general but fundamentalist Islam). They have to say to some muslims that they are victims of fundamentalist Islam and then play it with several muslim organisations and steadily make progress to bring more muslims on there side and break the back of Islamic fundamentalism in India. This is one of the way to tackle Islamic fundamentalism in democratic india.

Means the truth is that India if it has to preserve it secular fabric it has to create a muslim group which questions muslim fundamentalism in the same way the secularists in india question hindu fundamentalism. This is totally rational solution to the problem and completely implementable(just it is hard work and change of strategy and maybe change in political strategy).

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Oct 10, 2004 12:00 AM
25
abhishek,
I read couple of your posts.

There is a simple test that you can do if want to test the depth of 'moderation' of you muslim friends.

1. just ask them if they would believe that world is divided into darulharab and darulislam (i.e one ruled by islam and another to be converted to rul e by islam). if they say yes, you will understand

2. if they believe kafirs are to be won over by jihad or there is division of people into believers and kafirs.


everything else they say is immaterial
madhu
irvine, usa
Oct 10, 2004 12:00 AM
24
Mr Zafar,

It is great to see people like you who are standing against age old rules in Islam. I see hope in moderate muslims of India. I also see hope in Islam through Indian Muslims, Turkish Muslims and Muslims living in the west. I see that they have seen Islam and west and can truly assimilate both these societies to pull islam out of the present streak of fundamentalism in Islam. Moderate muslims have to rise and call the bluff of fundamentalists in Islam and show them there place, which is definitely not in the mosques, but somewhere else.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Oct 10, 2004 12:00 AM
23
Friends,
The Islam--as I understand--liberated women and both men and women have equal rights, but different roles. In my opinion, the idea of saying "talaq, talaq, talaq" frees a husband from all responsibilities towards his wife and children is inhumane. It is like slapping some one "taRaq, taRaq, taRaq" without thinking. The AIMPLB appears to be interested only in presserving the male dominance when they say "men can divorce and women can take divorce." Why a wife cannot divorce if circumstance put her in that situation. I am reminded the tragedy of a woman whose husband of few weeks had become a prisoner of war during Kargil fiasco and she did not know about his wherabouts for years and decided to marry. Now the 'husband' is back and local mullahs forced her to go back to her old husband. It should be her choice where to stay.

Islam not only allows ijtehad, it encourages Muslims to broaden their horizon by educating themselves and bring reform to the system within the bounds of basic tenets of the religion.

With regards to all fellow citizens.
Dr. Zafar Iqbal
Washington, DC, USA
Oct 09, 2004 12:00 AM
22
Dear Tabrez,

Why talk of Malaysia, Turkey or UK.

Look at the way the AIMPLB in India reacts to most fair treatment of Muslim women by the highest court of this country:

· In order to bring about uniformity in the financial maintenance to separated married women irrespective of the religions they belong to, the Supreme Court has upheld a Muslim woman's right to seek enhanced maintenance from her estranged husband under the existing penal law, section 125 of the Code of Criminal Procedure.

· This order assumes significance in view a misplaced understanding among many that Muslim women cannot seek maintenance under the CrPC following an exclusive law for their maintenance was enacted as a fall out of the Shah Bano judgment in 1985.

· The development heralds a breakthrough for some 65 million Muslim women in India, often described as the minority within the minority, but the All India Muslim Personal Law Board Wednesday said it was studying the ruling and examining how to challenge it.

· "Muslim women should not be ruled by the CrPC," said S.Q.R. Illyas, spokesman of the board that is a conglomeration of Muslim rights bodies across India. "We are going through the order and deciding how best to respond legally to it."

· Illyas pointed out that Muslims had been exempted from Section 125 by an amendment law enacted after the controversy over the Supreme Court's Shah Bano judgement in 1986. The Muslim Personal Law Board said it could not overrule the Shariat (Islamic code) without the approval of the entire community and religious leaders.

· Muslim women's rights activists have fought against the discrimination of women under religious laws for decades, and many believe that greater awareness has contributed to gradual improvement in their lot.

· Activist Farah Naqvi said: "There is a misconception that Muslim women cannot seek more maintenance from their estranged husbands. They have been a part of the country's laws and should continue to be so."

· But these voices of reason contradict the view of Islamic clerics who hold sway over India's largest minority comprising 140 million people.

· "We do not believe in giving maintenance for unlimited time -- three months is just fine, if the couple is divorced," said Maulana Muazzim Ahmed, the head priest of the second oldest Fatehpuri mosque in New Delhi. "What does she need maintenance for, beyond clothes and food? If she is granted more than that, it will lead to moral corruption and a woman can easily exploit her divorced husband while being in another relationship on the side."

UNBELIEVABLE!!

Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 09, 2004 12:00 AM
21
EKadmi
________

According to many sources Mohammed had a fantastic desire for sex. I suppose this amy be the chief reason for his views on women.

That they should submit and be on call at any time day or night. I wonder what Ayesha aged 9 years thought of being married to a 55 year old man,when in present days she would be playing with kids or barbie dolls.

Muslims also our moderate enlightened ones are
loth to explain this, but many still put up a sprited defence.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 09, 2004 12:00 AM
20
Dear Adi,

I read the following, true or not, in response to Ibn Warraq's Book 'Why I am not a Muslim':

"For example, I knew, as most people do, that Muhammad was a skilled general and a charismatic politician. I knew that he had fought in wars to defend his people, and, as happens in war, he killed some of his opponents. In spite of this, the image in my mind of Muhammad was always that of a gentle, reflective individual, in effect a Bedouin Jesus. According to Ibn Warraq and his sources, a completely disparate image emerges: gone is the humble messenger of God, and in his place is raised a merciless, bloodthirsty warlord, a man who spread the word of God by threatening lives instead of appealing to spirituality. A man who butchered 900 Jews of the Banu Qurayza tribe, taking the women and children as slaves and keeping the chief's daughter, Saffiya, among his collection of wives. He had hundreds of political opponents assassinated and looted their material and sacred resources. He had a mother of five killed while she was suckling her newborn. He had between 15 and 25 wives, and perhaps countless concubines. Here is a man who, at the age of 51, consummated with a nine-year-old girl, his child bride Aisha, whom he married when she was six (yes, six). The amazing thing is these accounts cannot be dismissed as `racist orientalism' for they are themselves corroborated by the Islamic tradition. Whether or not this tradition is reliable (or even credible) is a separate issue, for we have scant evidence directly linked to the life of Muhammad (or, as he was known to his tribesmen before his prophet days, Abul Kassim) but it is the tradition upon which the Islamic foundation is laid and is the only one we are given to consider."

But then, the apologists and believers may differ and say that this is just anti-Islam propoganda.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 09, 2004 12:00 AM
19
Dear Tabs,
Why do all of your practices and beliefs have to be guided by what someone who obviously had no conception of a modern society said in the 7th century? Don't you have brains to think for yourselves?
Please consider what you said: " The Quran allows a man to marry more than one woman on the condition that he does justice to them."
What the hell does "does justice" mean?
According to any sane contemporary individual, "doing justice" to ones' wife means NOT TO MARRY ANOTHER!! Kindly don't disguise your primitive belifs with words like "justice". Obviously it means something completely different in your religion.
And isn't that precisely what Mohamad did? Merrily marry many including a 7 year old? Isn't Mohamad the ideal for every muslim to imitate?
For all of the "moderate" voices, you are only apologists for a primitive cult. The sooner you understand this, the better it is for all.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Oct 08, 2004 12:00 AM
18
Ekadmi
_______

As is crystal clear muslims in India - also the moderate ones- have a total committment to Sharia. Why dont they admit this and stop their
comic attempts to fool us .No way do they want to change towards democracy and modernism.

They accuse others of prejudice and bias. How can
one avoid bias and prejudice when dealing with a dogmmatc and medieval religion.And its not just a few in this website. It extends to the entire civilised community.The leader of a important political party in Denmark calls the
ongoing conflict as a conflict between civilisation and barbarism.By end November the
Danish PM is holding a conference on integration of muslims in Denmark. Muslim mullahs, imams and
the other extremists have not been invited.
Likewsie in India the AIMPB should also be ignored.

Regarding Turkey a lot of modernisation is due to a few powerful people in the armed services.
And now Turkey is on its best behaviour in order
to get entry into the EU, whereas deep down EU
members are most reluctant in this matter, for obvious reasons.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 08, 2004 12:00 AM
17
Hi Dr. Naim
I would like to send my appreciation for your article regarding AIMPLB and making people think about the basic issue underlying the political hooplah. Unfortunately such good thoughts which ought to be discussed in public are obscured by a group of people taking advantage of people’s religious beliefs. This is true for all the religious communities in India. Population and women’s right are the two important issues which are so entwined that it is impossible to isolate them.
There was a documentary on PBS addressing the same issue and how the women in India don’t have a say in giving birth to a child. This is true across all religious spectrum and unfortunately along with the religious issue for some, the other portion of women face the necessity of giving birth to a baby boy (citing the reason as necessity for the growth of the family and to take care of them when they grow old). A lot of organizations are trying to spread literacy regarding this and hopefully the vast majority of people (literate & illiterate) understand the seriousness of the problem faced by India. We are expected to outgrow China in a few decades and image what strain that has on already strained resources. We as Indians should bring this topics to light and help people understand the underlying issues. All people of a country should have the same rights irrespective of their sex, religion, caste, societal standing, etc.
Dr. Naim, Keep on the good work.
I am referring to the article at the following url:http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=2 0041007&fname=aimplb&sid=1
Regards,
An Indian (then a Hindu)
n d
vadodara, india
Oct 08, 2004 12:00 AM
16
Ekadmi:

Before you indicated, I was not even aware of a book called Mishkatu-I-Musahib. Many sayings have been ascribed to the prophet. Most have been rejected by scholars as unauthentic. Besides, what you refer to goes against the Quran and Islamic practice. The Quran allows a man to marry more than one woman on the condition that he does justice to them. But the Quran also says that man cannot do justice to them, thereby strongly discouraging polygamy.

As for Lebanon, get your facts correct. Lebanon has been a Muslim majority country right after the crusades when the marauding European Christians not only killed Mulsims but decimated the Unitarian Christians.
Tabs
Goettingen, germany
Oct 08, 2004 12:00 AM
15
Acidburn,

You rightly say Muslims do not require to be in the majority to create havoc. But read this:

Since the publication of the religion-based Census report 2001 on September 6, a lot of hue and cry has been raised. First, the Islamic apologists and then Maulana Syed Kalbe Sadiq, the vice-president of AIMPLB, agreed to discuss the issue of family planning amongst Muslims but the proposal was turned down by its chairman Maulana Rabi Hasan Nadwi, who said, "Islam does not permit family planning." Its totally unjustified on the part of the Muslims to not accept the Government family planning program on the one hand and to press for economic concessions, political powers and religious demands on the other.

However, since Mr Nadwi's approach is truly Islamic, it has to be practiced with its long-term objective of rapid growth rate of Muslims. Islam permits polygamy-up to four wives. Moreover, it asks them to have large families and in Mishkatu-I-Musahib XIII, the Prophet says, "In my Ummah, he is the best who has largest number of wives." M Samiullah in Muslims in Alien Society writes: "Quran says the children are an ornament of life... such family planning cannot be in any way compatible with Sharia."

The Muslim growth rate over Hindus had been consistently higher during the last century in perfect tune with the spirit of the Hadiths and Sharia. It hardly bears reiteration that the Indian Muslims in general are literally following the commands of the Prophet to fulfil his long-term objective of outnumbering the non-Muslims and converting the non-Muslim- ruled states like India. Similar had been the trend in countries, where the growth of Muslims is much higher than other non-Muslim communities.

According to John R Weeks, a distinguished demographer, countries with large numbers of Muslims have a crude birth rate of 42 per 1000 persons; in contrast, the developed countries have a rate of just 13 per 1000. In other words, this means six children per Muslim woman, and 1.7 children per woman in the developed countries, a birth rate of five times to that of non-Muslims. While Muslims constituted 16 per cent of the Soviet population, they counted 49 per cent of the total population increase between 1979-1989 (Ann Sheehy Report 1990, p 15). Similarly, Lebanon turned from Christian majority to Muslim majority State due to higher birth rate of Muslims.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 08, 2004 12:00 AM
14
you seem to be unaware that Malaysia legally discriminates agaisnt Hindus. Ther are separate legal systems for muslims and non-muslims. In any case of conflict it is usually the muslim court that prevails.
sanjeev
Delhi, India
Oct 08, 2004 12:00 AM
13

Muslim 'liberals' can't and will not admit that the Sharia is flawed in even minor ways. This is the crux of the problem. It serves no purpose to point fingers at institutions or individuals (though they may have their own sets of faults). Hindus and Christians (at least those in Europe) did not hesitate in rejecting their religious edicts when they directly conflicted with modern values - this is still not even a dream with Muslims.

Vikas and Ekaamadmi, you may be correct in that Muslims in India maintain a level of moderation because they are a minority here - however, don't count on that - Muslims were still a minority in the sub-continent when they forced Partition. That can happen again without Muslims ever attaining numerical majority.

Tabs, please take a look at the history of the countries you mentioned. Turkey's secularism and democracy hangs by a tenuous thread and in the absence of the Military's enforcement, the country will return to theocracy. You can't enforce democracy through the gun. Islamist parties have gained in strength and following in the recent years. It is just a matter of time before Turkey plunges back into the middle ages. Both Turkey and Malaysia share one aspect - modernity for both is largely the work of individuals: Attaturk and Mahatir. Both were autocrats, though Mahatir maintained a modicum of democracy. This bodes ill for them. Further, the Malaysian society and economy are dominated by ethnic Chinese and Indians, not Malay Muslims even though they are numerically superior. Tunisia reformed because of the liberal influence of the French Republique.

As for Iran, the Mullahs have recently shown who is in charge. Don't encourage any hopes of the country reforming on its own.
Acidburn
Bangalore, India
Oct 08, 2004 12:00 AM
12
Tabrez's comments to Vikas
____________________________

I have talked to the Turkish ambassador in Denmark, and she has told me that her country
could not help in the evolution of other muslim
countries to a more modern goal.

The reason is that most muslim leaders do not accept the Turkish model, because Islam has been sidelined and the Sharia is not permitted a role.

Hejab has been banned in schools and colleges,
and young people have a very modern lifestyle in
Istambul. A Pakistani professor in Stockholm Dr Ahmed has told me that the Turkish model was the only one worth emulating in the muslim world.

Turkey can thank General Attaturk for modernising
Turkey and he did this by getting rid of medieval Islamic practices. Muslims in India
have shown no such desire. Instead they are holding on to their stone age practices. Muslim readers remain faithful to their faithm, right
or wrong.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 08, 2004 12:00 AM
11
Vikas:

What about Malaysia, Turkey and Tunisia? They have Muslim majority populations. Yet they are progressive. Now even Indonesia, the largest Muslim country is on that track. Even Iran is emerging as a successful nation, sanctions and negative press notwithstanding. To digress a bit, Britain has banned more books than Iran! Does that speak for freedom of expression?

Your skewed logic is jaundiced with bias. Systems of governance don't emanate the way children scribble on blank sheets.

Kind regards,
Tabrez J Siddiqui
Goettingen, Germany
Tabs
Goettingen, germany
Oct 08, 2004 12:00 AM
10
Naim Saheb,

Salam!

You have spoken the mind of many Muslims in India. Forces of sectarianism must be weeded out. Indian Mulsim women must get their rigths.

Tabrez J Siddiqui
Göttingen, Germany
Tabs
Goettingen, germany
Oct 08, 2004 12:00 AM
9
Right on the mark Naim sahab.
I will get back in detail later.

Till then, may your tribe increase !!
Mohib Uddin Ahmad
Incheon, South Korea
Oct 08, 2004 12:00 AM
8
What Naim would have said if he was honest and forthright is, "Spare us the edicts of this medieval and dogmatic religion called Islam ".

Naim has probably lived in the USA for some time,
and must know the preamble to the American constitution."All men are created equal and have certain inalienable rights "and so forth .

Muslim men and especially women would be denied these rights by these cretins even in democratic countries where some of them live.Its despicable that even in a democratic country like Denmark, the Islamists are trying(with sucess)to curtail the rights of women with all sorts of mumbo jumbo , from the 7 th century.

Its also a joke that whilst nonmuslim liberals are fighting for the rights of muslim women, they are feared and disliked by so called muslim moderates, and who by their silence have perpetuated the inequities of Islam. Is this not ample proof that there are no moderate muslims,
just nonviolent muslim fundamentalists.

By the way one person was missing from the group photograph. That of a 1400 year old man,
with his favourite wives , and the one who decides everything even in absentia. Blame him and not the old zombies shown in the photograph.
They are just trying to following his instructions as best they can.

Finally what do muslims immigrants do in the USA.
Do they follow the edicts of the democratic American constitution which gives equal rights to all or the laws of Sharia. They can only follow one,and must reject the other.

A honest answer is requested from muslim readers.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 08, 2004 12:00 AM
7
A lengthy discourse on the status of AIMPLB and muslims in India by a non resident muslim!!!

Few things.

1. No muslim in India has openly criticised the functioning of the board, whether he be an intellecutal, secular or peace loving ordinary citizen. As compared to this, the deeds and actions of VHP are put under the lens by all and sundry and are declared as against the national interest without even batting an eyelid.

2. The social reformers of hinduism like Dayanand Saraswati etc., gave a new direction to the way hindus live by abolishing certain unwanted and bad practice which were being followed like Sati and child marriage. Dowry as a social curse exists in India not because of the religion but because of the greed of people. Show me a single muslim reformer who has had the guts to say that the things mentioned in the Sharia is wrong or it is outdated & need not be followed keeping in view the changed social circumstances. To that extent all muslims are cowards who dont dare to speak against the illful practice followed by their religion.

3. When the Gujarat violence happened in the aftermath of Godhra, several prominent persons took out marches, held conferences and did dharnas to condemn the violence happening there. And the butt of all accusations always happened to be hindus. Compare this with the silence of muslims on the atrocities committed on the kashmiri pandits by muslims in kashmir. The imams and other prominent people from Islam deem it fit to express their anguish over the US invasion of Iraq but dont think it is necessary to condemn the violence on our own people at Kashmir.

4. A moderate muslim is a big MYTH and is as much a fictional character as is phantom, superman and batman. Ultimately all their actions are determined by sharia, whether good or bad. And how can you call somebody moderate when they insist upon following a text which was written in the dark ages of human civilisation?
sanjeev
hyderabad, india
Oct 08, 2004 12:00 AM
6
Mr Zafar,

I think you have not read the history of hinduism in India and Nepal. Nepal has had no historical, or cultural ties with india, not for centuries but for more than 1200 years or more. Nepal had ties with India during the time of Buddha, Mahavir or when buddism was prominent in India also.

To mix hinduism and India is like thinking in abstract ways. Please get your history right.

I will comment on the article. It is again a very positive article by Outlook in a series of articles that Outlook is bringing out. It is haertnening to know that there are people out there who are addressing real isseus in Muslim community. I will encourage Outlook to address these issues even further and attack Muslim fundamentalism with more vigour.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Oct 08, 2004 12:00 AM
5
Child psychologists sometimes employ a very effective technique to understand the mindset and tendencies of a child. The child is given a blank sheet of paper with pencils and crayons at his disposal and is asked to draw whatever he or she feels like. Based on that drawing – psychologists are often able to fathom if the child has violent or self-destructive tendencies.

Now extrapolate the same test to countries and societies around the world – assuming that a country is like a canvas and people that build them use resources of that country like pencils and colors to build their favorite drawings. Then compare the countries around the world. There are progressive Christian societies in the west – that have succeeded in making civilized democratic countries in spite of tendencies of some people to veer towards the ultra-right. Then there is that oasis of democracy amongst the desert of Middle East called Israel built from scratch by Jews. Further east, there is India – a deeply flawed but proudly moderate country built by Hindu majority with support from people from other religions (yes! There is a reason why Bal Thakerey or even Advani will never be able to become PM of India and the answer does not lie in Indian state but in Indian people).

Now, contrast these countries with the countries and societies that Muslims chose to build for themselves. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan. Even the so-called moderate countries like UAE, Qatar and Kuwait are moderate only when compared to the extremist countries. Just today on a TV show when the advisor to crown prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia was asked about a specific timeline when their country would transition to a democracy – he had the gall to say “Even Great Britain is still a monarchy with a queen at the top!!”

So yes, I agree with the opinion expressed by EKAAMAADMI that Muslims have been moderate only when they are in minority. They bare their true colors only when in majority. The proof of pudding lies in eating – and this pudding if I may say so – is definitely not worth eating.
Vikas Chowdhry
Madison, USA
Oct 08, 2004 12:00 AM
4

Dear Vikas Chaudhry,

You say and I quote:

The reason why Muslims in India are relatively moderate is because of centuries of moderating influence on their violent tendencies by the largely benign Hindu majority and not due to some abstract concept of “state”.

Faintly true.

Muslims in India are relatively moderate ONLY because they are in minority. When they were in a position of majority/dictating masses, look what they did- they made Pakistan. They are creating trouble in Kashmir, have colluded in kicking out Hindus and are now openly asking to be a part of Pakistan.

So be under no illusion whatsoever because a 'moderate' Muslim is an oxymoron.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 08, 2004 12:00 AM
3
Yes! But Nepal is not a country that is exporting terrorists into other countries either.

If anything - Nepal is known for exporting its fiercely loyal and brave Gurkhas. And now ISI in cohorts with the leftists has used Nepal as its base to launch anti-India terrorist activities.

C'mon - are you trying to compare the middle age rule prevelant in majority of Islamist countries with the monarchy in Nepal?
Vikas Chowdhry
Madison, USA
Oct 08, 2004 12:00 AM
2
AIMPLB is a waste of space - disband it!

Vikas - nature of the State comes in to it. Nepal is also a Hindu majority State, but it has not produced a progressive tolerant society the way India largely has. The difference: it is a religious State, and India is secular. Rgds
Zafar
Sydney, Australia
Oct 08, 2004 12:00 AM
1
The author asserts:


“The chief reason Wahabism has not so blatantly showed itself in India is the secular stance of the Indian state, no matter how faulty the latter may seem sometimes. But this sectarian poison remains a strong undercurrent in the Muslim religious elite.”

I don’t know when these intellectuals will give credit where credit is due. State is not an abstract entity – in a democracy, a state is largely guided by the cultural and ethical moorings of its people. There is a reason why the two breakaway states from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh are largely failed states, alternating between terrorism, democracy and military rule. The reason why Muslims in India are relatively moderate is because of centuries of moderating influence on their violent tendencies by the largely benign Hindu majority and not due to some abstract concept of “state”.
Vikas Chowdhry
Madison, USA
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