society
Half Crescent
The new Muslim face is now showing. It is rooted, yet modern, and looking for a decent life.
Young Muslim women, they are a changing
Poornima Joshi
OPINION
The AIMPLB is the true protector of the Shariat
Khalid Rasheed
The Emerging Indian Muslim
  • Increased emphasis on education
  • Not willing to accept diktats from clergy
  • Strongly critical of the role of bodies like the Muslim Personal Law Board
  • Given the opportunity, will embrace modernity
  • Educated middle-class women are breaking the stereotype, asserting themselves
  • Liberals increasingly in positions of influence
  • Middle class growing in strength and visibility, economically better off
  • Overall population growth rate is coming down



Mushkilein mujh par padi itni/ki aasaan ho gayin
(So many problems have come my way/ that it has become easy to overcome them).
—Mirza Ghalib

The great poet's house is located in Gali Qasim Jan, Ballimaran, in the walled city of Delhi. It is a typical Muslim mohalla, located between the Jama Masjid and Fatehpuri mosque. An area many would associate with bearded men and burqa-clad women. But just walk a few paces and turn the corner from Ghalib's neglected house and you will come to Sharif Manzil, the historic home of Hakim Ajmal Khan, the legendary Congressman and leader of the Khilafat movement. Some of his descendants still live in what is left of the 250-year-old haveli. Among them is Sana Masroor, a student at Delhi University's Hindu college. Sana topped the CBSE exam in history and plans to join the IAS. Besides her academic accomplishments, she has learnt music, dance and swimming. Sana is also an observing Muslim who covers her head at the sound of the azaan from the mosque next door. "I see no contradiction between my religion and my lifestyle," she says. Like Sania Mirza, the tennis ace from a middle-class family of Hyderabad, Sana Masroor is young, ambitious and personable. She is a symbol of the modern Indian Muslim.

Both these young women challenge the stereotype of the community. The imagery of veiled women and praying men. Of bearded maulanas with fiery eyes who issue retrograde fatwas from the pulpit. Of a backward, regressive people who breed like rabbits and refuse to change with the times.

For far too long, Indian Muslims have been cast in a mould that presents them as a national problem. But the problem with stereotypes is that they conceal the truth. The facts and figures present a far more complex reality for India's 138 million Muslims, the third largest Muslim population in the world. Increasingly, there is evidence of an emerging middle class that is questioning the role of the clerics and bodies like the All India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB). This class is impatient with orthodoxy and is embracing liberal views that make it easier for the larger community to join the mainstream.



A.R. Kamaruddin Dr Kamaruddin, scholar of Islam and UN advisor on information systems, brings the classical and the modern-liberal together in the best traditions of urbane erudition. His Tipu Sultan Advanced Study and Research Centre gives clerics a more rounded initiation, with a course in comparative religion and visits to temples, synagogues, churches. His wife is an Urdu short story writer. Software engineer son, married to a microbiologist, and dentist daughter are both settled in the US.


Take the example of Abdul Rahman Kamaruddin, a Bangalore-based Islamic scholar who has made it a mission to educate the mullahs and maulanas. The former expert on Information Systems and Services, who was an advisor to the United Nations, now runs the Tipu Sultan Advanced Study and Research centre in Bangalore. Among other things, the centre offers a course on comparative religion for Muslim clerics. In order to sensitise them to other religions, the mullahs are taken on visits to temples, synagogues and churches. Says Dr Kamaruddin: "The entire community has acquired a conservative image because the media always quotes the wrong people. Why is it that moderate and educated Muslims are never approached by the media?"


The Jalils/Burnis Rakshanda Jalil, left, expresses the blend in simple words: "We are part of the mainstream but we are also practising Muslims." This Delhi family's social profile explains the tradition/modernity duality. Book editor-translator Rakshanda also runs Hindustani Awaaz, an organisation that aims to promote Urdu-Hindi literature. Next to her is brother-in-law Khalid Burni, a banker. Then husband Najmi Waziri, a successful lawyer, who tries to fit in his prayers into a busy schedule. Sister Tabinda Jalil Burni is a doctor. The kids go to a 'regular' school, DPS, and also receive religious instruction at home.

Probably because the rantings of a fundamentalist make a more sensational story than a reasonable but dull viewpoint. Yet stories of Muslims challenging the orthodoxy also have elements of drama. Take the example of 27-year-old Rasheed who was targeted by the clergy in Kerala's Muslim-dominated Malappuram district only because he chose to learn Kathakali and Bharatanatyam. His family was ostracised by the mullahs who viewed these dance forms as "un-Islamic".The campaign against Rasheed was so intense that posters condemning him as a heretic were put up in his home town. Yet the young man refused to cave in and persisted with his passion for dance. Now an accomplished dancer who teaches Kathakali, Rashid is also a minor celebrity and a symbol of secularism for the Muslim youth of Malappuram. Says he: "Let the mullahs show me similar art forms in Islam and I will render them to their heart's content".

In north India, there has been a gradual but significant change within the community because of the economic recovery of the Muslim middle class that had been badly depleted after the Partition. Increased access to education has undoubtedly been a trigger for change. Yet most Muslims who are well placed in India are self-employed. Muslim representation in politics, the bureaucracy and private sector remains dismal. Although they constitute 13.5 per cent of the population, only 5 per cent of members of Parliament and 2 per cent of ministers are drawn from their ranks. Worse, only 1.6 per cent of class I officers in the central government services are Muslims.

The community's representation in the higher echelons of the private sector is even worse. Asghar Ali is the resident director of Ashok Leyland in Delhi. He says that "you can count the number of Muslims at the top level in the corporate world on your fingertips." He believes that Muslims confront a subtle discrimination in all organised sectors. "Why give a job to a Muslim when you can help someone from your own caste or clan? Since there are so many educated Muslim youth, it's hard for me to believe that none of them are capable of reaching the top," he says. What of success stories like Azim Premji of cutting-edge Wipro Corporation? Asghar Ali replies: "Please remember that he founded his own company. Most Muslims who do well are self-employed."



Sana Masroor A slice of contemporary life from the inner chambers of Old Delhi's walled city. The 250-year-old Sharif Manzil in Ballimaran, which has hosted Gandhi and Maulana Azad and where Ghalib was once a tenant, is the picture of gentle change. Sana, ace student at Hindu college, is an IAS aspirant. Father Masroor Ahmad Khan, a descendant of the legendary Hakim Ajmal Khan, is one of those who stayed back to prosper despite the flight of the elites from the old city after Partition.


Indeed, the new census data confirm that the percentage of Muslims who are self-employed or run what are described as household industries is far higher than any other community. At the lower end are the Muslim weavers, cobblers, locksmiths, tailors and artisans. At the top end are the Muslim families who own the small factories and businesses. There are some fabulously wealthy Muslim families in towns like Aligarh, Moradabad, Rampur, Meerut, Mirzapur and Varanasi. Yet the fact that most have to earn their livelihood either as workers or self-employed petty bourgeoisie in Muslim conclaves also contributes to the isolation of the community.

It is a complex and multi-layered reality. The twin problems of poverty and educational backwardness remains the main challenge for the community. Yet there are areas in which Muslims have done exceedingly well. Poet and lyricist Javed Akhtar points out that Muslims are well represented in the media, both print and television, and have always done well in the film industry. "Because of the importance given to poetry and literature in educated Muslim homes, they have a natural talent for writing in Hindustani," says Akhtar. He also believes that Muslims do well in all fields where talent is the sole criterion for success."They have excelled in the film world because here the sole consideration is your ability and talent.There is no room for prejudice," he says.


Muslims often have to walk that extra mile to overcome prejudice. That is why several Muslims have formed an organisation called Muslims for Secular Democracy that is committed to promoting progressive ideas in the community. Javed Akhtar believes that the tremendous response given to the year-old organisation points to a growing acceptance for the liberal viewpoint. The group got an excellent reception in towns like Aligarh, Allahabad and Hyderabad. Says journalist and activist Javed Anand: "We have been telling them one thing: khamoshi khudkhushi hai (silence is suicide).Educated Muslims have to challenge the mullahs who continue with impunity to claim to speak for the entire community."

Indian Muslims have little choice but to change with the times. The journey from the Partition of India to the demolition of the Babri mosque to the Gujarat massacre has been traumatic for the community.These events have also reinforced the need to embrace modernity and break the stereotype that is used for propaganda against the community.The message has sunk in that the narrow world-view perpetuated by the clerics will only increase the isolation of the community.

That is why many Muslims are eager to shed the baggage of the past and move on. Says Mushirul Hassan, vice-chancellor of Jamia Millia Islamia: "There should be no doubt that a change has taken place. Not only is there an entrepreneur community in pockets of India, a powerful middle class is emerging from institutions like Aligarh Muslim University and Jamia Millia and many polytechnics. There are problems of employment but there is also a newly found confidence. I strongly believe that the self-image of this browbeaten community has to be transformed."



Jamal Hamid, far right, is an engineer who has worked with the Birlas and L&T.Later, giving in to his elder's wishes, he joined the family crockery business.Father of six girls, he has ensured that all of them get the best education.Three of them are working with MNCs here and two of them are employed abroad. Says Hamid, "I always wanted my children to be achievers for which it is essential that they be modern and enterprising in their habits and ways of life."

Besides, events the world over have driven home the message that for all of India's imperfections Muslims here are privileged to be living in a democracy. Najmi Waziri, a successful lawyer, says: "I believe we are fortunate in India where all variations of Islam are allowed. Look at Muslim-majority countries. In Saudi Arabia you can only practise one type of Islam, in Pakistan there are attacks on Shias and Ahmadiyas. And citizens in these countries are frustrated with the failure of democracy." India's deep democratic roots and civil society groups have played a vital role in helping the community to move on after events like the Gujarat riots.

For, the bottomline is that the Muslims of India are free to choose their way of life.Thasni Banu and Abdul Naseer are a "couple" in Malappuram. They do not like being called husband and wife.Says Thasni Banu: "We are friends living together." The couple chose to wed before a sub-registrar instead of a qazi. The fact that they did so in conservative Malappuram is in itself a statement on the changing times.

These small gestures may be ripples in the pond. But they are a pointer to the shift. The changes are complex and diverse. Sometimes barely perceptible and very often unrecorded.




Saba Naqvi Bhaumik With Sugata Srinivasaraju in Bangalore, John Mary in Thiruvananthapuram, Savitri Choudhury in Hyderabad, Sutapa Mukerjee in Lucknow and Poornima Joshi in Delhi
Young Muslim women, they are a changing
Poornima Joshi
OPINION
The AIMPLB is the true protector of the Shariat
Khalid Rasheed
 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Oct 12, 2004 12:00 AM
134
We apologise that abusive posts from one "Citizen of the Sane World" remained on the site for such a long time. They were brought to our attention today and have been removed and the posting privileges of the abuser withdrawn.

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Executive Editor, outlookindia.com
New Delhi, India
Oct 04, 2004 12:00 AM
133
Dear Sudarshan,

Being young, one can afford the luxury and bliss of ignorance. When I was young, I lived in Hyderabad and I had many Muslims 'friends'. They are the nicest, most cultured and decent people I have come across. But in matters of religion- well that's another story altogether.

But, after travelling extensively, especially within the Middle East for my business, much reading and observing the onslaught of Islam all over the world, and its affects, I am what I am.

I have seen the tyrannical face of Islam- the lack of emphasis on education, the oppression of women and orthodoxy that prevails even in educated Muslims. Most of these ills were, and are in Hindus too, but Hindus, at least the educated and affluent class, have never allowed their religion to come in the way of their progress and upliftment. Yes, we believe in Pandits for our janampatri, our Mundan and Janaiu, our auspicious dates for marriage and so on, but we do not behead others in the name of Ramayan or blow buildings and innocent people in the name of Hinduism. I know you will say that 'that is not real Islam', as Muslims often say, but then, like Hindus, how often have you seen Muslim men and women come out in open to streets/parliament to demand for annulment of Shah Bano decision or Triple Talaq. I mean these repressive and antiquated laws affect their own loved ones and they do NOYHING about. All in the name of Islam. On top of this, Muslims continue to suffer and yet hold everybody else, except themselves responsible for their woes, not only in India but throughout the world. That is really too much!

But, at your age, I too was ignorant or oblivious of all these things. So I suggest you read more, observe more and come to your own conclusions, not mine.

And as I said, I am not against Muslims, but anti-India Muslims and Hindus, pseudo-secularists, commies, vote-bank politicians and hypocrites, in that order.

Any religion should lead to truth and I do not believe in 'Meri kameez uski kameez se zyada safed hai' delusions.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 04, 2004 12:00 AM
132
ek am admi,
thanx for the clarification.I also find your(you and your friends) views interesting.Unlike you i have not travelled much(Am a C.A working in a finace BPO in chennai) and neither has our city been witness to Islamic fundamentalism or riots.The three are four muslims that i know of are educated and have small families.
Therefore i should say am not able to entirely agree with you views on muslims.I beleive that the truth lies somewhere in between the extremes(as aristotle said).
sudharshan
madras, india
Oct 03, 2004 12:00 AM
131
Sigh! The same old story. Anybody who cares to analyze Islam critically is branded anti-muslim, hindu fascist and what not.

Shukoor, care to use at least a tiny portion of your grey matter? Read something about Kashmir's recent history. Above all, read the Koran with an open mind and in a language you understand.
Acidburn
Bangalore, India
Oct 03, 2004 12:00 AM
130
Dear Sudarshan,

Thanks for asking.

No, I am not using pseudonym because I am scared of using my real name and identity. No, sir. R&R has disconnected my feedback several times for reasons best known to them. I used to address my feedback by my real name, EkHindustani and so on to continue to stay on this forum with my friends like Lalit, Dharamyudh, Vikas and so on, whose views I love to read and respect.

I am a Hindu, and an engineer by profession from DCE, Delhi, having done my post-grad and MBA from US. I have lived,worked and done business in over 30 countries, including US, Middle East, Africa and so on.I hv my own export business, having a professional working wife, children in professional colleges in India and abroad. No,I am not scared of discussing my views with my friends who agree with my line of thinking, though they may not be so open.

I have been a very reasonable, logical and rational person. But the pseudo-seculars have pushed me to right wing Hindus, whom I find the only defenders of out country and our religion.

No, I am not standing for any election and hence I am not scared of being 'politically correct' just too please Muslims or to get certificates of my liberal thinking and secularism.

I hate anti-indian Muslims and Hindus, pseudo-seculars and pretenders, in that order.

How about you, Sudarshan dear?

Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 03, 2004 12:00 AM
129
ek am admi,
just have one doubt,are you having a Pseudonym because you are too embarassed to own up your extreme right views.

My guess is that you are from a cosmopolitan background where people are generally weary of discussing the issues of race,religion etc and hence you are Am Admi on this forum.

sudharshan
madras, india
Oct 03, 2004 12:00 AM
128
Shukoor PS of Bangalore,

please answer one question others asked. Have you been discriminated uin bangalore? when and for what?

Your argument that no one cries when muslims die is the most absurd one i have heard. Did you not see hindus protesting the Gujarat carnage?. Did they offer apologies?. Words like "Hindu fascism" were common. Most hindus opposed the Iraq war too.

Personally, i oppose the likes of modi and thackeray. I dont believe a temple should be constructed at ayodhya as it violates the laws of the land.

I too, despise this self pitying behaviour that you exhibit. Go somewhere else if you cant prosper here. Most people in most countries are sick of the attitude muslims exhibit. THey do irrational acts -godhra, WTC etc. When irrational behaviour follows, they potray themselves as victims.

Why did the Kashmiris want a separate country simply because they have a different behaviour?. Is their blood more pure?.

Please, stop this whining and examine why people hate this kind of self -pity. For a start you can examine the kashmiri pandits, 10,000 of whom have been slaughtered. 400,000 of them driven out. How many suicide bombers can be seen among the pandits?.
Karthik Sitaram
oxnard, USA
Oct 02, 2004 12:00 AM
127
Shukoor PS of Bangalore,

You say, and I quote:

"Let us remember one undisputable fact : That repeating lies, and rubbish, as 'Ekaadami' does, in true extreme right wing Hindu style, will not make it the undisputable truth."

Would you kindly point out my 'repeated lies and rubbish' in anything I have written and I would say 'I am sorry'. After all, I am not infallible.

Otherwise, I shall assume that like all Muslims, you too have resorted to subterfuge of name calling because you have nothing to counter what 'undisputed facts' I present.

Yes, i am extreme right wing Hindu and not a politically correct wishy-washy secularist that Muslims have been fooling for past many centuries.

Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 02, 2004 12:00 AM
126
Shukoor
__________

Are you discriminated in Bangolore??. Answer just this question.

50 % muslims in Denmark are unemployed because
despite free education , they refuse to qualify themselves. They feel they are muslims first,
and are unable to integrate themselves with the rest of the society.

Dont you understand that all people , also Danes have to qualify themselves or they do not get jobs. We are liveing in a competetive world.

Hindu's who are uneducated also do not get jobs.
The ones who do well have to wotk hard. I know
from young kids in my family in Delhi. Its round the clock studies. Thats why these kids do so well in life later on.

The same thing is happening in USA and Britain.
Hindu kids are paced to study hard, and ofcource they do well. They do not meet the discrimination muslim kids do. On the other hand there are several bright muslims I know who are doing well in Europe. All of them are very well educated.

Take the examples of jews. They have been discriminated more then muslims. However they are doing the best of all.The blacks in USA are
after enduring slavery have also started to come up . But as Bill Cosby , the black American comedian once said , its not prejudice but bad attitudes which is keeping most of them down.

Bad attitudes, such as obsession with religion,and unwillingness to get a modern education are reasons for muslims haveing been left behind . The same is true in Pakistan.
Do you have discimination against muslims there.
Education is a shambles there. Read any Paki newspaper, to find out. Maybe Mr Joseph can
inform us on this. I write to some leading journalists in Pakistan, and I a know they feel the same way as I do,

If you and your friends can not fugure this out, then I am afraid no one can help you.
Your best option would be to leave India.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 02, 2004 12:00 AM
125
The hate reserved for muslims on this forum is unbelievable. I could nt even call India a 'tolerant' country if this were the attitude of the Hindu majority.

Let us remember one undisputable fact : That repeating lies, and rubbish, as 'Ekaadami' does, in true extreme right wing Hindu style, will not make it the undisputable truth.

Also, I cannot understand 'Lalits' logic. Just because, as he moans, 50% of Denmarks are nemployed, still does not mean muslims cannot be discriminated against. What if 90% of muslims are unemployed? Is that not discrimination?
Shukoor PS
Bangalore, India
Oct 02, 2004 12:00 AM
124
Here is a rejoinder to Saba Naqvi Bhaumik's article 'Half Crescent'

Dear Saba Naqvi Bhaumik,

‘Half Crescent’ by Saba Naqvi Bhaumik is a clever PR exercise and a gimmick to project her community as an emerging modern society and has, therefore, failed due to its reliance on hype instead of facts.

Fact 1: While there may be increased emphasis on education, majority of Muslim families prefer to send children to Madarsas instead of govt/ private schools. Madarsa-going children are totally unfit for jobs in emerging industries globally.

Fact 2: There is NO evidence that the Muslim masses are not willing to listen to the dictates of Mullahs/Maulvis. In fact, the clout of clergy is evident from their fatwas, not only on social/religious practices but also on their dictat to vote en-block in favor of one/other party. Ironically, it is the same Muslim community, who then complains of being used as vote-bank.

Fact 3: Muslims have blindly followed the Personal Law board, what to talk of being strongly critical of them. Despite changes in personal laws all over the world, we still have the oppressive anti-Muslim women laws of Triple Talaq, no alimony, unequal property rights, opposition to family planning and so on. Have they raised any voice against Mullahs telling Gudiya to go from one husband to other?

Fact 4: Educated Muslim women are themselves party to perpetuating Islamic tyranny on Muslim women. In a recent poll conducted in Mumbai, majority of educated women prefer not to change these laws. The fact is that bearded, orthodox and obscurantist Khalid Rasheed is the face of Muslims in India rather than Sana (a ‘young, ambitious and personable’ girl), who may be an exception. Yes, ‘26% of educated Muslim women had illiterate husbands’ shows how much freedom is enjoyed by Muslim women!

Fact 5: Liberals are not raising their voices. Where was Javed Akhtar when MF Husain depicted Hindu gods and goddesses in nude, or when fatwa was issued against Tasleema and Salman Rushdie? And when same Husain withdrew his film ‘Minaxi’ from theaters on strict instructions of Mullahs, did he and his tribe of ‘educated liberal Muslim intelligentsia’ raise its voice? Or, this voice is raised only against BJP/RSS?


CONTINUED: : : :
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 02, 2004 12:00 AM
123

CONTINUED ::::::::

Fact 6: Muslim middle class is growing in strength, visibility and is economically better off- despite ‘persecution and prejudice’ of Hindu ‘majority’ in India? Ha ha! But you still see majority of Muslims living in walled ghettoes like Jama Masjid or Okhla in any city, due to their persecution complex, siege mentality and fear of domination by Hindus. The fact is that Muslims alienate themselves (probably to create a distinct identity of their own) by their 5-times a day Namaz, halal meat, distinct dress, behavior and habits, resulting in their inability to merge with the mainstream of any society, throughout the world.

Fact 7: Overall population growth rate is coming down but still alarming. And this is not a Hindu conspiracy to malign Muslims

Fact 8: ‘Indian Muslims have been cast in a mould that presents them as a national problem’ is the typical blame-throwing exercise of even educated Muslims like Saba Naqvi, who prefers to negate reality and neglect a need for introspection. Similarly, it is convenient to apportion blame on media (which happens to be predominantly Muslim or Muslim-supporting ‘secular’ Leftists) that ‘the entire community has acquired a conservative image’. When has the Muslim community openly opposed fundamentalists- be it Shah Bano case, Triple Talaq or Family Planning or acts of Terrorism by Pakistan? So what inference the majority community should draw from this? And yes, Saba Naqvi specializes in ‘sensational story rather than a reasonable dull viewpoint’ of Sangh Parivar only, not Muslims. Oh yes, Muslims like Arshad Fahmi may have voiced opinion against Mullahs like Shahi Imam of Jama Masjid, only when Imam wanted Muslims to re-concile with BJP/RSS, and hence he changed from a Muslim Hero to Mullah Saffron. Wow!

Fact 9: With less emphasis on modern education, rigid religious attitude, and lifestyle, it is unreasonable to blame Hindus for not hiring Muslims. ‘Muslim boys tend to drop out of school at an early age to join their family business’ confesses Saba Naqvi, but when educated engineers like Jamal Ahmed of Birla and L&T experience join ‘family crockery business’- she still blames Hindus for Muslim’s ‘self-employment’? Also, Javed Bhai , if Muslim family emphasise more on ‘poetry and literature’ instead of competing for IIT/ IIM/ computer classes, what do you expect? Javed Bhai, despite a so-called liberal mind, you also suffer from persecution complex when you say that ‘Muslims do well where talent is the sole criterion for success’. So the global success of Indians in the field of IT/ Biotechnology/ Medicine/ Management is based on factors other than talent? Rubbish! Yes, the murky world of Bollywood survives on something other than talent- underworld finances, predominantly from your community, within India and abroad.

Fact 10 : Partition, Godhra, Kashmir, Akshardham have been traumatic for Hindus too. But Saba Naqvi has sympathy for her Muslim brethren only.

Fact 11: If Muslims are eager to shed the baggage of past and move on- very good! Come out and tell Indian parliament to annul Shah Bano Judgement, solve Ayodhya Temple dispute amicably and try to have a similar (not Hindu) personal code for all citizens of this country- and I am sure you will see a surge of Hindu good-will for you.

But then, that will test how modern and pragmatic Indian Muslims are? And that is one test, hype will find difficult to pass. Till that time, Muslims will remain a problem for this country.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 02, 2004 12:00 AM
122
Shukoor
_______

Do you ever read comments about your views.Evidently not.

Firstly how have the muslims suffered more then
others in UP.

Do you not know that all Kashmiri pandits have been thrown out of Kashmir. This has not happened to muslims any where.

Muslims were OK in Gujerat before the Godhra
tragedy.

Now muslims accuse every country in the world of discrimination. And this in Europe , where 50% in Denmark are unemployed and live on welfare.
They have more money then they could ever earn in their rotten countries.

Frankly I dont believe that you and others like you can think rationally, and you certainly need reservavation, In present day India that means a government job for life, without work.

I despise your attitude of self pity, and helplessness.If you can not do well in India, or if you think its a rotten society, leave and find better prospects elsewhere. Pakistani's are all over the world. Let Indian muslims also show some spunk.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 02, 2004 12:00 AM
121
All that it takes to wonder whether India ( or at least the type of people who write here) are secular or merely 'tolerant' (AT BEST), is to take a quick look at some of the messages some of them tinged in hate and insensitivity ( even for Kashmiris ) in these messages.

There seems to be no realisation that muslims have suffered in places like Gujarat and Kashmir and UP, and that politicians have hijacked the polity to religious fanaticism and that muslims desperately need reservations in order to reasonably be socio economically in level with the Hindus.

All these messages make me wonder on what basis India continues to call itself secular? Just because Gandhiji was born here?
Shukoor PS
Bangalore, India
Oct 02, 2004 12:00 AM
120

WE WILL REMOVE THIS SITE IF PROVEN WRONG









Full version

Short version (436 words)

A Letter to Mankind
Dear fellow human,

Today humanity is being challenged. Unthinkable atrocities take place on daily basis. There is an evil force at work that aims to destroy us. The agents of this evil respect nothing; not even the lives of children. Every day there are bombings, every day innocent people are targeted and murdered. It seems as if we are helpless. But we are not!

We are losing the war against terrorism because we do not know our enemy. Terrorism is just a tool, the enemy is the ideology behind terrorism and that is Islam.

Those of us, who know Islam, know that the understanding of the terrorists of Islam is correct. They are doing nothing that their prophet did not do. Murder, rape, assassination, beheading, massacre and mutilation of the dead "to delight the hearts of the believers" were all practiced by Muhammad.

If truth matters it should be now! This is the time that we have to find the root of the problem and eradicate it. The root of Islamic terrorism is Islam. The proof of that is the Quran.

We ex-Muslims have seen the face of the evil and have risen to warn the world. No matter how painful the truth may be, only truth can set us free. Why this much denial? Why so much obstinacy? How many more innocent lives should be lost before YOU open your eyes? A nuclear disaster is upon us. Oblivious of that, the world is digging its head deeper in the sand.

We urge the Muslims to leave Islam. Stop with excuses, justifications and rationalizations. Stop dividing mankind into "us" vs. "them" and Muslims vs. Kafirs. We are One people, One mankind! Muhammad was not a messenger of God. It is time that we end this insanity and face the truth. The terrorists take their moral support and the validation for their actions from you. Your very adherence to their cult of death is a nod of approval for their crimes against humanity.

We also urge the non-Muslims to stop being politically correct lest they hurt the sensitivities of the Muslims. To Hell with their sensitivities! Let us save their lives, and the lives of millions of innocent people.

Millions, if not billions of lives will be lost if we do nothing. Time is running out! "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing." Do something! Send this message to everyone in your address book and ask them to do the same. Defeat Islam and stop terrorism. This is your world, save it.

The ex-Muslim Movement

www.faithfreedom.org




ramesh
sydney, Australia
Oct 02, 2004 12:00 AM
119
I once had a Indian Muslim Project Manager in a top American multinational company in India. The man was exceptional. He came from a lower rung Muslim family. He was hired for some kind of small/menial work that i dont remember. Gradually, he learnt C programming and by sheer dint of hard work, rose to the top. I deeply admire the man. We all gave him enormous respect. He was the only Muslim in a 200-300 strong place.

All this talk of prejudice is crap. When Muslims send tens of thousands to Madrassahs, its all right to apologists like Shokoor. And he complains of discrimination and says its the Indian government to be blamed for it !.

Everywhere Muslims have the same complaint. Even in places like Denmark, Netherlands and Canada !. If they cant live there, where else can they live?. Everywhere the talk is the same. There is no introspection, no regret, no anger against the medevial mullahs. The Muslim line can be articulated as follows

"Were it not for the zionists, brahmins, christians, martians, mormons, taoists, communists and others, we would be the greatest people on earth !"
Karthik Sitaram
oxnard, USA
Oct 01, 2004 12:00 AM
118
Vikas
-----

The muslims are absolved of all resposibility.
There are explanations galore.

1. Islam is a religion of peace.An Absolute
lie, when the mislim clergy openly advocate Jehad, at the slightest provocation.

2. Its only a small minority who are extremist.
Maybe, but they get tacit approval from the rest.
Even after Beslan many muslims claim that the
Russians were resposible. No contrition that small kids, women were prevented from drinking water, getting food, and shot in the back when they tried to escape.

All muslims feel enormous pain when one of their own is hurt. They have no feeling for the others.
How many muslims in this website have expressed sorrow over Beslan and others. Its all about
their own problems , all the time.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 01, 2004 12:00 AM
117
Shakoor
_________

I had suggested some options to you. It would be
welcomed if you discussed the matter with some fellow muslims and gave me an appropriate answer.

Fellow readers
_______________
By the way after problems of Palestine , Kashmir and Chechyna are solved what happens next. Do we have an area of peace- or continued confrontation on other issues.??

I am full of praise for the guys who are now
providing their eminently reasoned views on Islam. However I am pretty sure that Outlook
folks will not share my view on this.For your information readers of the Danish press have
views similar to ours.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Oct 01, 2004 12:00 AM
116
Dear Sudarshan,

I tend to agree with all the points put forward by you in your opinion, and further sustantiated by fellow ranters like Vikas Chaudhry.

The siege mentality and the evasion of truth by Muslims throughout the world about Islam is now getting old and cliched.

However, I totally disgree with you on one aspect of your opinion, when you say, and I quote "For the growth rate of muslims- I think much is being made out of this issue when there is no threat of muslims outnumbering hindus even if they grow at their current rate."

Pl look around and see that many many consituencies are becoming prone to sway one way or the other by Muslim voters who vote en-block. Our vote bank politicians, Muslim mullahs with their fatwas and religious leaders' calls for a decisive voting and the herd/siege mentality of Muslim population (who are openly told not to vote for anti-Muslim parties like BJP/SS)are responsible for this alarming tendencies.

Apart from this , areas in west (Kashmir), North East, UP, Bihar and some other states are going to become Muslim dominated and there are very good chances of their asking for a separate identity/secede, out of Indian republic. Muslims may not outnumber Hindus, but do you know that Musluims in Asia are now over 40% as compared to Zero many many years ago. And the Musliim population is fast rising-thanks to Muslim growth.

No, I am not an alarmist!

Just look around, think about it and you will see. If not, tell me. I will provide documented evidence. OK?
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Oct 01, 2004 12:00 AM
115
There is a great victim hood mentality at work in Muslims today – and the world media has only aided and abetted it. Mainstream media all over the world has not only shirked from asking the right questions, it is also guilty of not giving enough coverage to the few Muslims that have been voices of reason amongst this sea of hatred and irrationality. Islamic world is absolved of its responsibility in a dismissive sentence claiming that Islam is a religion of peace – it is just that a few Muslims who are bringing bad name to a decent religion.

Ground reality in the world suggests something altogether different. Just like Hitler could have never gone ahead with his massive pogrom against Jews without consent of the silent majority – the atrocities in the world going on today in the name of Islam could not have been committed without tacit approval by the Muslim majority.

Indian media is probably the guiltiest – because of all the nations in the world today – India was probably one of the first ones to bear the brunt of this fundamentalist religion. But the Indian media never asked the right questions, never forced the Muslims in India to introspect. Au contraire, it actually encouraged this victim hood mentality by blaming all the shortcomings in the Muslim society on majority. Outlook has continued this great Indian media tradition. Some of the editors must have observed the constant barrage of criticism by educated Indians against the Islamic mindset – and Outlook thought that it is the right time to once again become an apologist for an irrational mindset. But little do they realize that much water has flown under the bridge and no longer will people be fooled by a handful of feel good human-interest stories. The tolerance for this intolerant religion is veering thin the world over.

Vikas Chowdhry
Madison, USA
Oct 01, 2004 12:00 AM
114
I am sorry Mr.Shakoor,
Are you saying that there is no distinction among Muslims? This is the greatest myth. The caste-like stratification among Muslims will put Hindus to shame. A Syed is weilds a lot more clout among Muslims than a Brahmin can ever hope to among Hindus. Why is it that Muslims that claim Arab, Persian or Afghan descnent (in that order) are considered superior to low-caste Hindus that converted to Islam? Don't tell me it is Hinduism's corruption - if Islam can be so easily corrupted, then what the hell is the point of claiming that Islam believes in equality?
The reason that Muslims are backwars is this -
the MAJORITY of Indian Muslims are converts from low-caste Hindus. ALL OF THE LEADERSHIP of Muslims in India comes from the "foreign-origin" Muslims. The low-caste Muslims have no interest in secular education and have no interest in secularism. They live their ghetto lives and curse Hindus for their miseries. Their imagined panacea is to re-impose Muslim rule over India. This begs the question, were the Hindu convert Muslims EVER in a position of decision making? Why is it that ALMOST EVERY IMPORTANT MUSLIM in India's History someone that claims foreign origin? The reason for Muslim backwardness is OPPRESSION BY the so-called foreign-Muslims. Whereas Dalits have rebelled against religious prejudice, THERE IS NO SUCH AWARENESS AMONG MUSLIMS. The reason for this sad state of affairs is the rigid dogmatic nature of Islam. No use blaming Hindus. Why the hell would I trust a Muslim to be a Prime minister when all I see them doing is marrying 4 women and having 10 children - none of whom will ever get through school?
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Oct 01, 2004 12:00 AM
113
shakoor
How did the sikhs or sindhis who lived in pakistan before partition overcame the trauma of partition while the Kashmiris are still suffering from post traumatic stress.

why is it that all major international disputes be it kashmir,palestine,chechnya directly involve muslims?(though i really pity and also admire the bravery the palestinians who try to vent their frustration by throwing stones at advancing Isreli tanks).

about a muslim becoming the prime minister of India-India will have a muslim prime minister before the USA elects a woman or a African-American as the president.

On muslims being discriminated against-Reporters in the US asked Azim Premji in the wake of the Godhra Incident whether he faced discrimination in india and he replied" I could not have become one of the richest businessman in india if i had been discriminated against"
Premji went on to say that he was frisked more than once at all US airports!

For the growth rate of muslims- I think much is being made out of this issue when there is no threat of muslims outnumbering hindus even if they grow at their current rate.

The muslims should come out of their medivel mentality,muslim law permitting polygamy would have made sense in the 12th or 14th century when a large number of men died in Wars and the sex
ratio was adverse.
talking about divisions in the hindu soceity-can you please explain the root cause for the muslims being divided in to shias and sunnis?(as far as i know it has nothing to do with idealogy and is more of a family dispute)

Have you personally faced discrimination in India? It really pains to see a fellow indian so frustrated mate!
sudharshan
madras, india
Oct 01, 2004 12:00 AM
112
answering shukoor
1.Hindus have good leaders.Gurujis,shankaracharyas all are our leaders.They are far better than your lot.
2.our population growth rate is 22.5%,whereas yours is 36%.So whos talking about slowing growth rate?
3.we dont say muslims suffer from inferiority complex.we say you suffer from superiority complex.
4.because muslims are backward by their choice.They ruled india for 1000 years and still consider themselves backward.They have more children which makes them more backward economically.And they refuse to adapt population control measures.So they dont deserve reservations.They made the choice of having more children and less resources.you cant have a cake and eat it too.
-just becasue hindus have dalits cant we point out at your weaknesses?we have ours,you point it.you have yours and we point it.
-A hindu if he commits bigamy loses his government job.He runs the risk of going to prison.So there is some legal relief for the affected women.All the bigamy that happens,is inspite of this.But muslim women dont even have that option.GIve it to them,is what we ask.
-India is not divided on caste yes.Its like muslims divided into sunni,shia,pashtoon,wahabi etc.
-the secular faces are not hindus.They are pseudo secular faces.You call people like arundhathi roy,mulayam,laloo,romila thaper secular and hindu?nice joke.They are not secular.They are opportunists.
-hinduism will accept debates.It grew by debates.It survives by debates.But islam doesnt tolerate debates.There are hindu atheists.But are there any muslim atheists?what is the punishment for apostasy in islam?
-why is a hindu calling kashmiri pundit butchery called as a fundamentalist and muslim calling so called as a liberal?
sampathkumar
chennai, India
Oct 01, 2004 12:00 AM
111
SHUKOOR really has Balls to write:" Kashmiris suffer from Post Traumatic Stress as well! " Hats Off ! Have you ever thought of plight of those 5 Lakh Kashmiris? Massacred, Raped.

Is this is the face of educated Moderate Indian Muslim? Then we have a Big problem, folks!
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, USA
Oct 01, 2004 12:00 AM
110
I live what may be called a mainstream existence and I do not actively practise any religion. But will I get to define how the mainstream should work? Can I tell the Hindus who are a part of the same mainstream what they must do? Can I ask them pertinent questions like…
* Why can they not have good leaders to guide them?
* Why has their population growth slowed down by 2.9 per cent while the Muslims’ has gone down by 3.5 per cent?
* Why do they have panel discussions discussing ‘Hindu bashing’ and why do they fear being overtaken by the Muslims and yet accuse the Mussalmans of whining and suffering from an inferiority complex?
* Why do they grumble when it comes to reservations for Muslims when there are whole sections of tribal and backward castes that get it and indeed deserve it due to the flaws of history?
* How can they dare to point fingers at Muslim regressiveness when they have not been able to improve the lot of their own people that has given rise to the Dalit movement?
* How can they make a noise about the sad plight of Muslim girls when statistically there are more instances of female infanticide, child marriages among Hindus than cases of Hyderabad girls being forced to marry Arabs?
* Why do they harp on Muslim men marrying four times when bigamy is more common among Hindus?
* How can they talk disparagingly about Muslim ghettos when India is divided along regional, culinary, caste, status lines?
* Why is it that whenever there is a discussion on the problem with Islam, the ‘secular’ faces are Hindus?
* Why are there no discussions on the problem with Hinduism?
* Why is a Hindu saying that the Gujarat genocide was bad considered a liberal and a Muslim saying so a communalist?

Shukoor PS
Bangalore, India
Sep 30, 2004 12:00 AM
109
Mr Shukoor,

APJ is an Indian-Muslim. Hence he can become the President. Azim Premji is an Indian Muslim .. hence he can be India richest man... Like wise with ShahRukh Khan .. or any other Indian Muslims who excel in their field. People like you. Shukoor, you are not an Indian Muslim but a Muslim staying in India. You, Sir, have a plinter in your eye, hence you will only see logs of wood everywhere.

Nuff said.
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Sep 30, 2004 12:00 AM
108
Shukoor
________

In view of the bad situation for muslims in India, would you be in favour of another
homeland like Pakistan. ??

You are dissatified with the lack of tolerance.
We have secular parties in power in many states especially in Bengal, Bihar and UP.
Will you claim that they are intolerant.

Lastly have you thought of settleing down in a muslim country where you will be treated better.???

Muslims have same complaints as you have in Europe and America also . Despite this more and more want to immigrate there. When they do not get visas , they complain of discrimination. When they live there on substantial welfare , they still complain of discrimination. It seems that you are permanently dissatisfied. You ask a lot where ever you are ,and contribute little,

Think of the jews who were discriminated
for centuries, and had to suffer enormously
especially under the Hitler regime. Despite this
jews world wide are leading in many , many fields. And compare your self with them.
Despite haveing vast resources , vast lands the muslims are badly behind in every field.

Now what more can be said about this situation.
I hope this is the last time I write about this.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Sep 30, 2004 12:00 AM
107
This argument going on, on whether muslims are themselves to blame for their plight, really wont take us anywhere.

Just take the facts : In 'Tolerant' India, there is hardly any representation of muslims - neither in the private nor public sectors. As for Kashmir, lets not rub more salt into the wounds of Kashmiris. They have suffered terribly under various guises and regimes already.

As for the media, when the Gujarati riots were at its peak, Modi cut out the national media, and let the Hindu media run riot with false stories.

As for the number of Hindus arrested or convicted in those riots, the less said, the better chances there are, of India calling itself 'tolerant' ( at least).

It is no surprise that Hindus have so much hate for muslims in India. The historians encourage it, by writing history, showing muslim kings in a very bad light, while even the British period is comparatively more 'progressive'.

Todays India has no place for 'secularism'. Whatever little remains is only the gone-by pride, and hopes, of a handful of the 'tolerant' in the majority community.
Shukoor PS
Bangalore, India
Sep 30, 2004 12:00 AM
106
Ken
_______

Ken you are a scream.Sincerely meant.

Some of you are remarks are just out of the world.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Sep 30, 2004 12:00 AM
105
Some of the Ranters claiming that partition was caused due to Savarkar, Britishers or Gandhi, and not Indian Muslims, should read this excerpt from Pioneer:

It is wrong to say that Muslims did not demand Pakistan and that majority of them were in favour of undivided India as revealed by the results of 1937 elections. Further, Muslims who remained in India had voted for Pakistan.

Some others claim that the creation of Pakistan was prompted by the British. Some political scientists called Gandhi the "creator" of Pakistan. There is no substance in any of these statements. It only shows their gross ignorance of historical facts. Eminent Muslim scholars both in India as well as in Pakistan have expressed that the Indian ummah was squarely responsible for the creation of a separate homeland for Muslims.

Prof M Mujeeb writes, "The party which demanded the creation of Pakistan, a separate homeland for the Indian Muslims was the Muslim League. In the elections held early in 1946, which proved decisive, it secured 425 out of 492 seats... It insisted that the right to a separate homeland for the Muslims to be called Pakistan should be conceded first" (Islamic Influence on Indian Society, 1972, pp 193-94).

Writing 30 years later, Dr Hamid Khan, an eminent Pakistani scholar, says the results of the election during the winter of 1945-46 showed a clear victory for the idea of Pakistan. The League won all Muslim seats in the Central Assembly and 446 out of a total of 495 seats in Provincial Assemblies (Constitutional and Political History of Pakistan, OUP, Karachi).

Justice MC Chagla in his autobiography, Roses in December, writes, "Uttar Pradesh was the cultural home of the Muslims. Although they were in a minority in that State, if Uttar Pradesh had not gone over to the cause of separatism, Pakistan would not have become a reality." Dr Rafiq Zakaria writes, "The Muslims of Bombay, UP and Bihar were the first to respond to the call of Jinnah for Partition and enthusiastically supported the movement for Pakistan." What more proof would satisfy Muslims about the role the Muslims of Bihar, Bombay and UP had played in the creation of Pakistan?

Rahmat Ali, a biography by Professor KK Aziz says, "It is difficult to believe that he (Rahmat Ali) had given no thought to the future of Indian Muslims before 1932. He had lived in Lahore between 1912 and 1930, and must have been familiar with the trend of Muslim thinking and more particularly with the various proposals made in these years to solve the Muslim problem."

Between 1858 and 1932, no less than 85 proposals were made directly or indirectly for the division of the Indian subcontinent on religious basis.

These days a concerted attempt is being made by Muslim scholars and pseudo-secularist Hindus that it was Savarkar who invented the two-nation theory. These intellectuals should realise that Savarkar was not even born when Sayyid Khan articulated the two-nation theory.

Gandhi was not responsible for the creation of Pakistan. Gandhi stood for united India and he had made this clear in his talks with Jinnah at Bombay in 1944 which had lasted for 14 days.

Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Sep 30, 2004 12:00 AM
104
To "shukoor" on Muslims being badly represented in the media. In my view they _dominate_ the media.
Sriram
Chennai, India
Sep 30, 2004 12:00 AM
103

Shukoor,
Unfortunately, you display the typical Muslim mindset. You have the balls to say that Muslims are fleeing from Kashmir, despite the fact that half a million Hindus have been ethnically cleansed from the valley. Muslims typically want to feel victimised, though they themselves are the aggressors in almost all the conflicts.

Lalit, you are absolutely right. Muslims will never take any blame on themselves for the ills of their community. Though flawed, ours is a democracy which gives equal oppurtunity to everybody at least in principle. We have many trades and professions almost completely dominated by Muslims. Riots and prejudices apart, the civil society hasn't prevented the Muslims' progress wherever they cared to put in some effort. Compare this with the plight of the minority Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan or Bangladesh. Kerala has 10% reservation in educational instiuttions as well as government jobs for Muslims. Still Muslims are the most backward community (except perhaps the Adivasis) in the state educationally and to an extent, economically. Don't forget that the Muslim League has been a partner in almost all ministries since the organization of the state. Whom will you blame for this?

Muslims should understand that if their loyalty is suspect in India (in fact every country in which they have a presence), they themselves are to blame. The 'secularists' tried to make us believe that the 'Muslim problem' is exclusively the creation of the Hindu right. Now every country with a Muslim population has a problem. They now try to make us believe that there is a 'root cause' to Islamic terrorism - poverty, illiteracy etc. They don't tell us why all the 9/11 terrorists were highly educated and well off. They can't explain why highly educated, rich Britons leave their homes to wage jihad against the infidels in distant lands.

In a way, the Marxists are right - there is a root cause for Islamic terrorism. That cause is Islam itself.
Acidburn
Bangalore, India
Sep 30, 2004 12:00 AM
102
shukoor,
government jobs are secured purely by writing competetive exams.If you dont have that skill hy blame people who have that skill?India was ready to accept a christian-foreigner as a prime minister.All a muslim needs to do to become prime minister is to marry somebody from the gandhi family.Thats all.
sampathkumar
chennai, India
Sep 30, 2004 12:00 AM
101
shukoor,
Will kashmir ever elect a hindu as its prime minister?Hindus have elected many muslim chief ministers like pondichery(farooq).And in miidle east all jobs are given for muslims first and if that vacancy cannot be filled by a muslim or is a too special one,then it goes to the Hindu.So many ads from Middle east call for only muslims.Why cannot muslims take a moral stand that we wont work in such discriminating companies?Its only hindus who flee from kashmir and not muslims.More than a million kashmiri pundits live like orphans in their own country.
Muslims are economically bad since they have lots of children.You stop that and you will grow economically.
sampathkumar
chennai, India
Sep 30, 2004 12:00 AM
100
Shukoor
________

I have lived in Denmark now for many years.
I worked as an engineer for Exxon for several years. Though I was praised many times for my innovative thinking,I was never promoted. Several senior staff members admitted I was being unfairly treated.

I decided I would not take this unfairness and started a business which was quite sucessful

Now I am running a finance company,Performance is good compared to any company of my type.In size however I am just tiny compared to guys like George Soros.

I am not doing this to brag. Just to relate a first hand experience to prove that no one can supress ambition and talent.

I know one prominent Pakistani who is involved
in fighting for minority rights. I invited him and 10 of his coworkers for dinner and to talk to them how to go ahead on their own through hard work, innovativeness and most importantly by changeing their rigid attitudes.
I am still waiting for him to come back and now three years have gone by.By the way he is
pretty much disliked for his constant critique of Danish society . He has lived here for 30 years, hates the country but will not go back to Pakistan.

Lastly by the way muslims are not fleeing Kashmir or UP.Its Hindu's who have been forced out of Kashmir.Surprising but it seems true, that despite everything muslims are not leaving India, but millions of Bangladeshi muslims are entering India illegally with the consent of secular parties.

On the whole all this writeing is just a waste of time. Muslims in India and elsewhere have rigid attitudes and do not accept any blame for their situation. Perhaps the most satisfied muslims are those who live in pure muslim countries.The others feel awkward liveing as minorities in India and elsewhere.

Note for Ekadmi
_______________

For fundamental reasons, and cyclic considerations most internatioal bourses and the USD will fall in next 2 months.

I will let you know( based on common sense,
technical and fundamentals factors) when there
is a good buying opportunity.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
99
Here's an article by Rajiv Malhotra that's raising a lot of dust:

http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/co lumn.asp?cid=305959
chandra
Portland, US
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
98
You have attempted to put the muslim community once again, embarrasingly, under the spotlight, while ignoring the wider context of the community in the national mainstream. Of course no community can blame another for all its pitfalls. But no minority community in India can live in a vacuum. It needs 'secularism' - and not just 'tolerance' - for its very survival and well being.

But look what happens in 'secular' India? In states like Gujarat, Uttar Pradesh and Kashmir, muslims have been literally fleeing for their lives. Naturally,
the less said about its economic confidence, the better!

Statistically, the proportion of muslims employed in government services is a miserly 2%. And no 'secular' government can dare to alter that figure if it can help it. Not surprisingly, the illiteracy and health figures are a disaster too. Again, there are hardly any muslims in national politics or the media.

Muslims in India are treated as social outcasts or even as third rate citizens, or at best barely tolerated. Depression, not surprisingly, is much higher among muslims. Kashmiris suffer from Post Traumatic Stress as well! Socio economically, muslims are among the worst in India.

If a few muslims do manage to do well, the reason is not because of 'secularism', but because a few from the majority community 'grudgingly' 'tolerates' them. No doubt a 'tolerant' India could produce a 'muslim' President (who todays muslim children look upto), but can a muslim child today, even dream of becoming Prime Minister?

I hope Outlook one day, examines : Is India a truly 'Secular' or (a very thinly) 'Tolerant' society?

Which, I believe, is more pertinent to the situation Indian muslims are in today.


Shukoor PS
Bangalore, India
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
97
Good piece to befool the people.
I wonder what are you trying to prove.Perhaps you too are trying to "correct" the misinterpretation of "wrong" figures of the latest census.

I would recommend to check this link on your own website:

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.a sp?fodname=20041004&fname=Cover+Story+%28F%29&sid= 3
Rajeev Mehta
Bath Spa, UK
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
96
Let me rephrase the article correctly.
Myths and Fantasies about the modern Indian Muslim:
1) Increased emphasis on education
2) Not willing to accept diktats from clergy
3) Strongly critical of the role of bodies like the Muslim Personal Law Board
4) Given the opportunity, will embrace modernity
5) Educated middle-class women are breaking the stereotype, asserting themselves
6) Liberals increasingly in positions of influence
7) Middle class growing in strength and visibility, economically better off
8) Overall population growth rate is coming down

I can't understand how the author can state the above points with no data to prove it. Sorry, but Outlook with it's pseudo-secularist fantasies should understand that some of their readership may actually be discerning and intelligent.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
95
1. Turkey
My thoughts exactly. Erdogan (Turkeys Islamist PM) is a very shrewd guy. He knows that by integrating with the EU , he will achieve what the Turks failed to do in 1683 at Vienna. The economics, demographics, culture of the EU & Turkey are anti-podal. The US & some like the Economist are pro-Turkey. As usual the US doesnt know what the hells going on. The US / Economist think that Turkeys integration will do to the Middle East things that the war on terror wants to accomplish i.e Secularism, democracy etc. They dont realise that what it will do instead is that it will open the gates for nationals from Pakistan to Morocco to gain easy access to the EU. Rather than the Middle East becoming secular, its the EU that will become ... as Bat Yeor put it Eurabia ...Also the Turkish military is the protector of secularism. Under EU regulatiosn it cannot interfere which means that the Islamists are pretty much free to take over this democracy. So eventually a Turkey integrated with EU will spell doom for secularism in Turkey & teh end of Secular/Christian Europe as one knows it.

2. Ekaamadmi/ Why Islam is the way it is ... will write at length this week end. Im travelling .. dont have the Koran with me right now ...

3. Discussions on stocks etc. I agree. I was pretty active in the Stock market in India. Ive begun looking at stocks here starting just a couple of weeks ago. Yeah .. lets do that .. swap info. Make money ... and then lets donate part of that to institutions in India that promote Hinduism ... Did I hear the term “Saffron Dollar” ? ... Hhee Haaa haa aha haa haaaar de haaar haaaar haaaar (Raavan laugh)

Here goes ... couple of days ago , read an articel in the FT of London about some companies listed on Nasdaq / NYSE delisting due to the increased legal/financial requirements of the Sarbanes Oxley rules .. any ideas how Indian companies / stocks like REDF, INFY, SIFY etc are affected.

Did anyone watch Martha Stewart last week (MSO) ? From 12 to 18 last week .. dropped this week ..
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
94
Lalit, Dharamyudh and the rest of the gang,

I fully agree with Lalit that we are spending a lot of time and efforts on this forum when we can exchange views on stock market and other ways to help each other make money.

Especially since the other side is just not listening, what to talk about changing.

I also wish we could have a discussion on the financial scenario, oil prices, stocks, bonds,
currency future, options.

How about one paragraph about economic scene/ stock tips with each posting in this forum?

That will really be mixing pleasure with business, innit?

I would love to hear yr views.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
93
Dharmyudh Singhji,

Your treatise on Islam is fascinating and further to my 10-Point agenda for Islam.

What I would like to know from learned people like u n Lalit is the psychology behind the changes that accompanies somebody who converts to Islam from say Christianity or Hinduism.

Are they already fringe cases harbouring angst or unjust against their society/religion to convert to Islam?

Why even an educated, rich and open-minded person, when he becomes a Muslim, starts having diagonally opposite values about other religions and followers of other religions?

How they get a jehadi mindset or support a jehadi mindset?

What is it that makes them so much male chauvinistic so as to deny all human rights to a woman who is their wife/mother/sister/daughter?

All thes changes are catacalysmic and so sudden as to make me wonder- how somebody changes so much by just a mere change of religion.

I would like you to kindly enlighten me on this human aspect.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
92
Anima
_____

Typical prejudiced Hindu RSS fascist, bigot, fanatic. You can not count to 10.

According to Al Jazeera the muslims discovered everything, the intel chip, windows, Kalishnikovs , viagra etc.

Yes the muslims did not discover the condom,
because thats forbidden in the holy book.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
91
Gorgon
_______

Human logic is relentless. You say do not call for an end to Islam, because it will infuriate the Jehadi's.

This logic is fatal.That means that rationalists should not express their honestly expressed view,
because the muslims in general will take the extremist path.

This is already the case. Muslims are scared
of defying their religion in any significant way.
They are scared of the backlash, of being declared apostates. We know the punishment
for that.

On the other hand muslim males are fascinated
by thoughts of an eternal orgy in heaven-
It seems because of the carrot and stick they
have no choice .

Dhmramyudh and Gorgon , what facilities are available for the muslim ladies in heaven ??
This is never talked about in the Koran.

Lastly what do the secular members of mensa
have to say about recent comments.??
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
90
Hanuman Baba
------------
I dont know what on earth makes you conclude I didn't get a visa to the US or that I ve never been there. btw, is that the scale you use to measure a person's intellect ?? In that case, probably your parents (supposing you are first generation US visitor) have the IQ level of a toilet seat!
Sriram
Chennai, India
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
89
Some of the Contribution of India to World of Mathematics, which Gorgon forgot to Mention !

1. Place value Syatem
2. Zero (250 BC)
3. Solving Intermediate Equation
4. Value of Pi upto 8 places
5. Use Negative Number
6. Division by Zero

Here is what Encarta, 2004 says on this:

The system of numbers that we use today, with each number having an absolute value and a place value (units, tens, hundreds, and so forth) originated in India. Mathematicians in India also were the first to recognize zero as both an integer and a placeholder. When the Indian numeration system was developed is not known, but digits similar to the Arabic numerals used today have been found in a Hindu temple built about 250 bc.


In the 5th century Hindu mathematician and astronomer Aryabhata studied many of the same problems as Diophantus but went beyond the Greek mathematician in his use of fractions as opposed to whole numbers to solve indeterminate equations (equations that have no unique solutions). Aryabhata also figured the value of p accurately to eight places, thus coming closer to its value than any other mathematician of ancient times. In astronomy, he proposed that Earth orbited the sun and correctly explained eclipses of the Sun and Moon.

The earliest known use of negative numbers in mathematics was by Hindu mathematician Brahmagupta about ad 630. He presented rules for them in terms of fortunes (positive numbers) and debts (negative numbers). Brahmagupta’s understanding of numbers exceeded that of other mathematicians of the time, and he made full use of the place system in his method of multiplication. Brahmagupta headed the leading astronomical observatory in India and wrote two works on mathematics and astronomy. The works dealt with topics such as eclipses, risings and settings, and conjunctions of the planets with each other and with fixed stars.

Writing in the 9th century, Jain mathematician Mahavira stated rules for operations with zero, although he thought that division by zero left a number unchanged. The best-known Indian mathematician of the early period was Bhaskara, who lived in the 12th century. Bhaskara supplied the correct answer for division by zero as well as rules for operating with irrational numbers. Bhaskara wrote six books on mathematics, including Lilavati (The Beautiful), which summarized mathematical knowledge in India up to his time, and Karanakutuhala, translated as “Calculation of Astronomical Wonders.”

Indian mathematics reached Baghdâd, a major early center of Islam, about ad 800. Supported by the ruling caliphs and wealthy individuals, translators in Baghdâd produced Arabic versions of Greek and Indian mathematical works.

© 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
88
Gorgon,

You Wrote: "(Arabs) ...mathematics (invention of the number zero)".

You are dead wrong. Zero was invented in India. Infact, the word English "zero", "Sine" (in trigonometry) are from Sanskrit, which went to Europe through Arabia.
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
87
Gorgon,
It is indeed true that there are different streams withing the Islamic thought. However, none of them deny or defy it's basic tenets - that Islam is the only true religion, non-believers are to be converted to Islam, if they do not embrace Islam, they will burn in hell etc. The differences are mainly over minor theological details or slight adjustments due to reasons of practicality. For example, the Hanifite school allows the idolators Dhimmitude, whereas none of the other schools do - idolators should either be converted or eliminated, Dhimmitude is only for the 'people of the book' - the reason being the practical difficulty Muslim rulers in India encountered in converting or butchering the huge number of non-Muslims of the subcontinent.

In modern times, the divisions in the Muslim community of Kerala is an instructive example. Here also, the differences are over theological points like whether Muslim women should be allowed to pray in mosques or some other inscrutable arguments about Koranic injunctions. Another thing is the political opposition to the Muslim League. None of the parties involved in these wrangles are ready to compromise on the basic principles, simply because, if they do, they will becom apostates. Remember, even these minor dissensions are not tolerated often - the fate of Chekannur Maulvi is a pointer.

It is very difficult to reform Islam so that it still remains Islam. The problem of course is the theological rigidity. To be a Muslim, belief in Allah is not enough. You have to believe that Mohammed is the prophet as well, otherwise, you are not a Muslim. Koran is the infallible words of the prophet, therefore it is not allowed to change a single letter of the text. The only scope for creative interpretation (Ithjihad) is in law : wherever the law is not completely clear, there is some scope for adaptation. However, this is very limited in scope and is of no practical value at all.

As I have often said, cosmetic surgeries are more likely to be counter productive than effective. The 'liberals' can very well hide the real face of Islam from the general, non-Muslim public using homilies like 'there shall be no compulsion in religion', but nothing prevents the pious from flipping a few pages ahead and discovering what the Koral really says about the Kaffirs.

Dharmayudh, I do not completely agree with the assessment that there are no moderate Muslims - there are at least a very tiny minority, who retains only a barely visible vestige of their religious indoctrination. I know some of these people. The surprising thing is that they do not know what the Koran really says. I, however, agree that their impact is likely to be vanishingly small.

My hope is in the Muslim apostates, lead by pioneers like Ibn Warraq and Anwar Shaikh.
Acidburn
Bangalore, India
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
86
Well said Rohit.Especially that example about the press in Egypt.This is typical muslim behavior everywhere.In India the Urdu press behaves similarly.OFcourse the English press is even more
muslim than the mullahs with maulanas mehta,jha nayar,n ram as eds.But I also want to add that in Nepal the next day after the rioting all the politically correct nonmuslims (usually found in abundance among thestupid Hindus)in Nepal
took out a procession along with the muslims crusading for peace.they did not do this when the 11 innocent nepalis were gruesomely butchered.Only after there was a backlash against the muslims.Rings a bell.Look at all the violence against Hindus eg Kashmir,riots and Godhra.The liberals sleep when Hindus are butchered.But if there is backlash they wake up to protect the muslims.While the so called muslim liberals could
care less about nonmuslim deaths.No wonder we hear javed and shabana also joining the traitor secular Hindus against post godhra but lost their voices when the train was burnt.

Victimisation?Sure.But not of the muslims.

Instead the victimisation is by muslims of nonmuslims.And if 1000 yrs is not enough to see this,then we are a stupid species indeed.
n gangadas
austin, usa
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
85
Someone asked if Indian muslims consider Turkey worth emulating.Well remember Khilafat movement of early 1900s and moplah massacre of Hindus in kerala all over the caliph in turkey.

Well to this day Indian muslims identify more with islam than anything else including nation and state.Take their opposition to Sharons visit,iraq,pakistan cricket and palestine.Our vote bank secularists know this and encourage it.And Laloo knows this too well.So he keeps getting reelected by taking out morchas protesting USA and Sharon'S viSIT,embracing Musharaf in pakistan which has nothing to do with Bihar's poor.But then he knows muslimS vote on issues related to their religion and it's indoctrinated hatred of Hindus .They dont care about roads,water and power.So he arrests advani and bans togadia and the latest
charge that advani murdered Jinnah.And while he knows that he will not win Hindu votes,this pro Jinnah anti Advani allegation will win hearts over in the madrasas and mosques of India .

This reflect'S the 7th century islamic mindset of Indian muslims and this will not change.And the Laloos and the congress would like the muslims to vote religion and not Bijli,sadak pani.So much easier to arrest advani than to build roads and supply power.The muslims are thus dragging Bihar and the rest of India backwards.

Is it any wonder they are so despised .What can u say about a community that misuses a rare democratic voting prerogative unavailable in most Islamic countries
to reeelect the laloos and congress that pander to their hatred against kafirs.And I have not even listed overbreeding as reason to despise muslims.The list goes on.for eg crime,riots against ganapat,jerry falwell,man on moon,shahabano,loudpeakers,hygiene,namaz on roads,misusing vote by threatening women to vote against BJP on election day or else triple TAlaq and ofcourse those undemocratic fatwas to influence voting.
India is paying the price for the Gandhi Nehru 1947 decision.
n gangadas
austin, usa
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
84
Dharamyudh
__________

No I do not think entry of muslim Turkey into a European and Christian club is a good idea.

Turkey has some urban liberal muslims, but many
in the country side are a century behind.
The latter would cause great problems.

Turkey would also require immense aid from existing members, and EU will gain nothing by their entry.

Best would be to give them a fair trade agreement.

My talk with the Turkish ambassador cleared
my thoughts. Ataturk was a national hero, and
because of this ,he was allowed to strong arm
the Islamist forces and modernise Turkey.

Saddam also westernised Iraq, and made a secular society. Shias religious expresssion was repressed.Women got a higher status. This makes me believe that only a ruthless and powerful dictator can transform a muslim into a secular society. But not many strong men will take the risks required. In Iraq the Baath party ,a socialist secular society supported Saddam.
There is no Baath party in Pakistan or India.
On the other hand the backward Islamic parties are strong. So this route of modernisation is unworkeable. Fully borne out by General M. failures to modernise Pakistan despite his admiration for Kamal Ataturk.

We are having a interesting discussion but
the other important participant is missing.
Ofcource I am sure our mail is being read, as proven by the hate mail.

Muslims will not thank us for our efforts to bring democratic thoughts to them They have a fatal attraction for their old time , and eternal religion.

I am spending too much time on this. Its more gainful to spend it on my financial business.
I wish we could have a discussion on the financial scenario, oil prices, stocks, bonds,
currency future, options.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
83
Let me try to sum up the reasons put in this forum. The case to date is that the real problem is Islam itself and it's rigidity, which leads to all the ills. I beg to differ.

Do you know that the Prophet himself said that by the day of judgement there will be over 40 streams of thought in Islam, of which only one would be following the true path? Do you know that Islam broke up into sects from the day the Prophet died and why?

Islam was born to be a modern religion by professing equality and making religion a part of society without any go-betweens unlike the religions of the day like Judaism with its rabbis or Christianity with it's popes or even Hinduism with it's brahmins etc. I feel it was too far ahead of it's times and ultimately fell prey to the ambitions of the arab rulers who used it as a unifying weapon of conquest.

There were protests against this imperialist flavor of Islam, beginning immediately after the Prophet's demise, and the moslems broke into separate groups just like he had professed. Islam developed an ugly face until the empires expanded. After that the arts did prosper as evident from the advances in architecture (the minaret & dome), mathematics (invention of the number zero), music (instrumental & vocal maestro ghranas abound even today) etc.

So who cares? The end result is moslems are a pain in the neck for the entire world. Most of them fell prey to the extremist form. They are a victimised minority and an oppressive majority as you all point out. As Irshad Manji says - "Prophet Muhammad himself said that religion is the way we conduct ourselves toward others. By that standard, how Muslims actually behave is Islam, and to sweep that reality under the rug of theory is to absolve ourselves of any responsibility for our fellow human beings."

The problems are too complex and the solution must come from within the moslem community. My only plea is that please don't kill that chance by calling for an end to Islam. You only add fuel to the jehadi extremist's fire who have been saying all along that it is Islam that they are defending.
gorgon
Hawaii, USA
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
82
Dharmayudh,

You may want to look up this site, and the book.

http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/
< BR>I know a swallow doesn't make a summer, but there are lots of people supporting her.

BTW, funny Outlook never picked up on her (hugely successful) book, even though she has an Indian background.
chandra
Portland, US
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
81
The Westerners consider those Muslims who do not blow themselves up, don’t slaughter the infidels, or stone their women as “moderate”. On the other hand, these same “moderates”, support Palestinian suicide bombers, justify the decapitations of innocent contractors and the stoning of the adulteress. I’ve never seen Muslims demonstrating against capital punishment for apostasy, against stoning, against the beheadings or the kidnapping of American or western civilians.
They are not concerned about the opinion of others about them and these barbaric acts perpetrated by their brethrens. Their thought is structured in such way that they accept such these barbaric teachings. They consider it right and natural to do whatever Muhammad or Allah commanded them to do.
It would be interesting to ask the “intellectuals” and the so called “moderate Muslims”, such as Tarik Ramadan, what they would do if their daughter married a Christian or an atheist or even worse, a Jew. What would they do if she decided to convert to any other religion or if she publicly declares her homosexuality? Would they still remain calm and “moderate”?
Reforming Islam does not mean just fighting terrorism; but repealing all those rulings that violate the fundamental rights of human beings. The Quran is the main source of all kind of violations. Islam means submission, not peace. A Muslim is subjugated to Allah and in order to enter the paradise he must follow the Quranic commandments. Freedom is just an abstract concept. In fact freedom in Islamic terms means being subjected to Allah’s commands. What we consider freedom for a Muslim is libertinage. For a Muslims religious freedom means that people are free to submit to Islam and give up all their personal freedoms. But this is a one way road. Once they become Muslims, they can’t leave Islam. He is free to express his thought, as long as he doesn’t speaks against Islam, Muhammad, the Quran, the Islamic Government or the Shaira.
In our countries, if a non-Muslim criticizes Muhammad or the Quran, he would be accused of racism, religious intolerance and even sued by the same “moderate Muslims”. Therefore, a Muslim living in the west is not “moderate”; he is simply adapting himself so he is not expelled.
A clear example of Muslims’ double standard comes from the “Universal Islamic Declaration Of Human Rights” This Declaration is not based on Human Rights at all, but rather it is based on the Quran and Muhammad’s traditions. The so called “Moderate Muslims” who live in the west, agree with that completely.
“Moderate Islam” is a just a western dream to reform Islam and its theocratic system so it could coexist with the Western values and the Muslims could integrate with the rest. It is an aspiration to combat terrorism and to avert the threat that Islam poses on an international level. But Muslims do not see such need at all and do not share this dream. It doesn’t necessarily mean that all the Muslims wish to become “martyrs” or to Islamise the west. It means that their thought is structured in a way that they do not justify these objectives nor they see any need for that.

Contd ...
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
80
Lalit,

Do you think it would be wise to permit Turkey to enter the EU ?

Curious to know yr thoughts
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
79
Whoever doesn’t believe in the Jihad; doesn’t support “The Mother of all causes”. For example if a Palestinian doesn’t believe in the Quran, he is an apostate, a kafir, a traitor of the Umma.
Secularization and Islam are two incompatible and opposite concepts. If a Muslim considers himself “moderate”, then he/she is no more a Muslim. If he considers himself to be a true Muslim, then he must reject modernization and abandon any thought about reforms.
We, in our own lack of understanding of Islam, expect an immediate reform, an immediate refusal of all Islamic teachings by Muslims. We wish all Islamic states follow the example of Turkey . That is nothing but wishful thinking and it is indicative of how little we know about Islam. It is not Islam that should undergo reform. Islam can’t be reformed. If it is reformed then it is no more Islam. It is the Muslims that should reform. They must reform their thoughts, their values and their priorities. We want to modernize Islam, while they wish to Islamize modernity, to convert our thoughts, our way of life and our societies into their way.
Today they march for Palestine, for the right to wear veils, to build mosques; tomorrow they will declare that they will not obey the law of the land if it is contrary to the Shari’a, then they will ask to have Islamic courts and Muslims judges as this is already happening in Canada. Later on, they will flood the parliaments with Muslims MPs and will form Islamic political parties. Then, who will be able to talk about “moderate Islam” anymore?

END
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
78
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/StefaniaA40926.ht m
Moderanization: A western Dream and Ummah's Nightmare
By Stefania Atzori
Talking about the “moderate Islam”, Fiamma Nirenstein, [an Italian journalist who writes from Israel for the daily La Stampa] claims that in some Islamic societies moderation is in fact a reality; or at least, we can start to see a significant number of “moderate Muslims and moderate Islamic communities”. To back up her claim she quotes a Dubai television program on polygamy that is hosted by a woman. This, and some other isolated episodes give the illusion of the existence of a moderate Islam, compatible with our society and our secular thought and democracy. There is a common misconception among those who don’t know Islam that Islam can be reformed and that a “moderate Islam” can be achieved. The reality is, however different. Moderate Islam is a myth and a nothing but a western illusion.
Moderate Muslims do not exist. Such an idea presupposes rejection of some or all Islamic tenets. Anyone who rejects, or wishes to reform even one single teaching of the Quran is considered to be a renegade and an apostate.
Islam is not a religion with spiritual or ethical precepts. It is rather a political system that aims to conquer the world. It avers to be irrefutable, eternal, and universal. Thus a Muslims is obliged to believe in all Allah’s teachings. Without Islam, a Muslim would be lost, would be deprived of any identity and will lose his sense of belonging. Being a member of the Islamic Umma gives him the strength, the confidence, a sense of superiority that otherwise he wouldn’t have.
Muhammad promised the Muslims an orgiastic life after death with virgins with big eyes and fair skins, perpetual erection, rivers of wine, luxurious palaces and plenty of carnal pleasures. He instilled in them the illusion of being superior to others by virtue of their beliefs and that they would be a victorious people, led by Allah and supported by angels and Ababil birds. This is an irresistible bargain. A Muslim would never barter this orgiastic eternal future to conform to the laws of a secular society. What we, as westerners, consider “modern civilization”, for Muslims is Kufr, shirk and Haram.
Westerner, reason upon their religious and political ideologies. It took centuries before we could liberate our societies from religious domination, it is therefore unthinkable that a theocratic and totalitarian society like the Islamic Umma with a draconian book such as the Quran as their book of guidance can reach the same objective in a short time.
Surely for Fiamma Nirenstein “moderate Islam” means mainly the recognition of the State of Israel by all Islamic states and to stop Palestinian suicide bombers. For the west it means to defeat international terrorism, the Jihad. While for Muslims, “moderate Islam” means to reject Allah’s orders; in other words, to apostatise.

...to be contd
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Sep 29, 2004 12:00 AM
77
Prof Seshadri
_____________

Thanks for your note.

Today I talked to the Turkish ambassador in
Copenhagen, and she said that most muslims do not accept the liberal model of her country.

I wonder whether Indian muslims consider Turkey
worth emulating.

Any comments. ???

lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Sep 28, 2004 12:00 AM
76
This is a great elucidation of problems with Muslims in general.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Sep 28, 2004 12:00 AM
75

ISLAM AND MODERNITY - 3

As a tailpiece I cannot refrain from quoting an instance of the "victimhood", and how false and hypocritical, that wld appear by referring to a recent article from that well-respected magazine The Economist. Egypt's largest selling and leading newspaper Al Ahram reported the news of 11 Nepali cooks being brutally butchered in Iraq somewhere in the inside pages. Next day the front page had headlines and a photo about the rioting in Kathmandu in protest, where a mosque and middle-eastern airline offices were targeted (but no muslim was hurt - 2 non-Muslim protesters were shot dead by the police), but the newspaper DID NOT MENTION at all WHY the protesters were so angry.

I think that eloquently summarises how PHONEY this "victimisation" posturing is ..And how phoney the PHANTOM "ummah" is ..religion as a basis for a nation-state has proved to be a complete failure. Those misguided and wacky weirdos trying to bring about a monolithic ummah are pursuing an illusion - it can never be realised - 5000 years of recorded history is testimony to that.

To be contd. (next piece: THE HYPOCRISY OF THE MUSLIM INTELLIGENTSIA

Rohit Choudhary
London, UK
Sep 28, 2004 12:00 AM
74
ISLAM AND MODERNITY – 2

True to the shamelessly slanted stories Outlook publishes, the write-up on the Muslims in India by and large blames the majority community for all its ills.

Muslim educational and cultural backwardness can date to British rule, when they as a community, were suspicious of and indeed hostile to western education and doubted its value. Soon this mind-set became a "cultural thing". Muslims in Britain (second generation) are far worse-off than their White or other Asian and black counterparts. Indians along with the Chinese EXCEL in school (get the best grades), go on to college and are heavily represented in the professions and generally very successful in whatever field. The same cannot be said of Pakistanis or Bangladeshis ( the worst of the lot). Indeed, the Bangladeshis soley rely on SPONGING OFF the very generous welfare state while the Pakistanis are content with being the "mehmaan" of the Queen and are hardly engaged in any productive acitivty. And the last few years have seen well-educated Muslims (a rare specimen)packing their bags and setting off ... for waging Jehad in distant lands ! In Afghanistan, Chechnya, Bosnia, Kashmir and even Israel ..

I don't buy for a minute the contention that Muslims in India find it difficult to get into the govt. services or the private sector. At the most elite level -if you work hard and score well in the tough entrance and other competitive exams there is no reason why one shd not succeed in India. If Christians in India are so successful and well represented in the top-most layers of the private sector and govt I see no reason why the Muslims shd. not be as successful. Bias, there is undoubtedly- and will remain for a long time, anywhere - but then that bias has hardly to do with religion and more to do with caste and other parochial interests and nepotism. If Indians can so famously succeed in "racist" Britain and America, making excuses for one's failure is not going to get the community far.

Where the govt. can intervene is making sure the minority community competes on a level playing field by ensuring education to all. But here also the "old think" in the community has to change ..learning the sciences and a liberal arts education is not going to make you question your beliefs (as perceived by the Saudis and mullahs).

How important it is to change perceptions can be seen by another example from Britain. Most immmigrants from South Asia to the UK were barely literate and thus had no "learning tradition" to speak of running in their families.
Yet, the children or the second generation Indians from the Punjab have excelled in school and gone on to do very well by becoming doctors, lawyers and other professionals. The same is not true for the Pakistanis or the Bangladeshis, despite the govt. here spending huge amounts on their education (totally free) and having so many "target" training schemes to make these laggards employable. But the results don't seem to be encouraging.

Therefore, the Muslims in India, have to a large extent only themselves to blame for their backwardness.And the phantom Muslim "ummah" shd stop seeing itself as the victims of some wicked conspiracy hatched by the west in collusion with "infidels" like Indians, Japanese, Chinese (throw in a few alines as well) etc.

See what the "confucian ethic" of hard work, discipline etc did for Japan, Korea and the rest of the Far East, and now is doing the same in the land of its origin, China.

(to be contd.)
Rohit Choudhary
London, UK
Sep 28, 2004 12:00 AM
73

ISLAM AND MODERNITY

For once I am glad that Outlook has written a long overdue cover story on how the Muslim community in India is coming to grips with the 21st century.

Having studied history as a major subject in college I firmly believe that Islam in the hands of the ILLEGITMATE ulema is INCOMPATIBLE with modernity.

The notion of "victimhood" is so played-up in Muslim countries and communities everywhere that seldom does the community or the "ummah" try to view itself through its own looking-glass and come to a critique of its own society, economy, polity and institutions.

This fact was lucidly outlined by Mahathir Mohammed at the Organisation of Islamic Countries (OIC) conference in Malaysia (the only Muslim country to make any real progress)last year. He had emphatically stated that Muslims everywhere shd realise that "brainpower" is more important than BRAWN. And then he went on to cite the example of the Jews who put overwhelming emphasis on learning for their domination of academia and the professions (among other things - and there are too many !!). Less than a fraction of one percent of the world's population, Jews have won more than HALF the Nobel prizes till date. Truly amazing.

Muslims bemoan the fact that their political and cultural domination of the world ended with the advent of the Europeans from the 15 - 16 th centuries, but fail to realise that this was made wholly possible by the RENNAISANCE and REFORMATION movements in Europe. In fact, protestantism even contributed to the rise of capitalism in N and NW Europe and to the "scientific revolution" which made European domination of the world so universal and so lasting.

In contrast the current educational and scientific "achievements" of the "ummah" is a JOKE. The Arab world with all their wealth has failed to progress. Saudi Arabia has spent more than a TRILLION DOLLARS to buy arms from America in the past three decades BUT still needs foreign expatriates to man their oil installations (they STILL can't PUMP out the oil on their OWN !!). Cynics may say, yeah well ...if they can steer jetliners into tall buildings why shd they bother about such mundane things. All these arms and being a nation having as many people as Iraq was STILL not adequate for the SAUDIS to defend themselves ..hence they had to invite America to protect them from an invasion from a rag-tag army from Iraq ...And this stationing of troops on "holy" soil raises the hackles of a certain Mr Osama bin Laden ..

The Saudis, not surprisingly, more concerned about deviously exporting an extreme,intolerant, nihilistic version of Islam - Wahabism, to the rest of world, while the royal family of 5000 (!!) princes indulge in all evils the decadent West has to offer ..and while the Muslim world is steeped in the "dark ages".

Only in recent years, and to their credit, small city-states like Dubai and UAE are making some effort to modernise - but only economically ...political liberalisation is still light years away.
Rohit Choudhary
London, UK
Sep 28, 2004 12:00 AM
72
While it is heartening to read about the "ripples in the pond" about Muslim progress, it will be burying your head in the sand if you use these stray cases to ignore the very real fundamental problems in the Muslim societies today.

You just have to look around the world to grasp that. Just look at the countries where Muslims are in majority - the Middle East, Pakistan - no democracy, no secularism. The only reason why there are no public beheadings in India and Muslims are relatively moderate compared to other countries is because of the moderating influence of the majority.

If you were to think of partition as a social experiment in which two different communities were given two different pieces of land to be evaluated after 60 years then what conclusion would you come to? One is a thriving if flawed democracy - exporting software and intellectuals to the world; the other is a dictatorship exporting terrorists to the world and whose leading scientist was caught red handed peddling nukes and whose dictator comes to the US to claim that "Pakistanis speak better English than Indians". You will not find a more damning indictment of a failure of an ideology and a religion.
Vikas Chowdhry
Madison, USA
Sep 28, 2004 12:00 AM
71
Sriram, you along with Lalit can start a 'shithead club' for people without brains and all hate for non-hindus. No knowledge or intellect but big egos of 'sabjanta ganjiwala'.

P.S.- Looks like you didn't get a Visa to America. If you had brains, you'd know why it was rejected. Don't come here and stink up the place. Jokers like you bring a bad name to India.
Hanuman Baba
Texas, USA
Sep 28, 2004 12:00 AM
70
Acidburn
_____________

Agree with you.

Muslims will not understand that its not them ,but their 1500 year old religion which is the cause of conflict.

Reason vs faith.
of all problems today.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Sep 28, 2004 12:00 AM
69
The day you start believing in the infallibility of a 2 millenia old scripture (passed on WOM)you are doomed.....
What the prophet said then maybe made a lot of sense.... (Women without Hijab in the then-barbaric lands would hardly hold a chance)....But why do Muslims have to follow every word of his to the T today????
There are hazaar things wrong with Islam today....99.9% of them can be traced back to the undying and untenable belief of Muslims in the word of Muhammed holding true to this date....

Hinduism surviced over centuries coz Hindus were flexible enuff...Christianity offered its liberals an option to choose a path that was not as rigid as some right Catholics would wantit to be...What's stopping Islam then????

Abhinav
Chennai, India
Sep 28, 2004 12:00 AM
68
http://members.tripod.com/pakjihad/appeasement.htm
Gandhiji’s program of Muslim appeasement began early, as soon as he took control of the Congress following Tilak’s death in 1920. He and the Congress abandoned Tilak’s program for ‘Swaraj’, in favor of a course of appeasement of Muslims. History books fail to mention the fact that the 1921 Nonviolent Non-cooperation Movement had no purpose beyond restoring the Sultan of Turkey after his defeat in the First World War. It was even called the Khilafat Non-cooperation Movement. Evidence suggests that the Ali Brothers — the Maulanas Shaukat and Mohammed Ali — used Gandhi and the Congress in their plan to replace the British rule with Khilafat Rule. They even invited the Emir of Afghanistan to invade India in support of their Jihad. Mohammed Ali justified this by saying: “If the Afghans invaded India to wage holy war, the Indian Muhammadens are not only bound to join them but also to fight the Hindus if they refuse to cooperate with them [Afghans].”
Here is Gandhi: “To the Musalmans Swaraj means, as it must, India’s ability to deal effectively with the Khilafat question. …I would gladly ask for the postponement of the Swaraj activity if we could advance the interests of the Khilafat.” And postpone he did — for nearly ten years. It was not until 1929 that the Congress took up Swaraj again. Even this was because revolutionaries like Bhagat Singh were beginning to steal the thunder. Gandhi himself left no one doubt about his program of Muslim appeasement: “As a man of truth, I honestly believe that Hindus should yield up to the Mohammedans whatever the latter desire, and that they should rejoice in so doing.
bindu misra
Delhi, india
Sep 28, 2004 12:00 AM
67

Gorgon,
You said : The fight should be against such people & thoughts not against a particular religion, group or country.

I agree that our fight should not be against a particular group or a country (by and large, though we will have to fight these entities too from time to time.) But what about ideologies? Imagine Churchil declaring in 1944 that Nazism was an ideology of peace, it was just that a few Nazi officials were corrupting its tenets of peace and tolerance? We should not target Muslims as a group or as individuals - our fight should be against the Islamic ideology, which is the cause of all this mischief.

You seem to imply that the Hindus and non-Muslims have a vested interest in finishing off Muslims. Nothing of that sort. European countries welcomed Muslims without reservation, despite fourteen hundred years of Islamic history. Now, the immigrants want to destroy their host societies.

Like Muslims elsewhere, you too want to feel victimised.
Acidburn
Bangalore, India
Sep 28, 2004 12:00 AM
66
As if that were not enough, the TOI headline blares thus - "Not Jana Gana..., Pak anthem rings in the Valley". It says Kashmiri's have the Pakistani national anthem as ringtone in their cellphones.
The full story -
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articlesho w/865729.cms
Sriram
Chennai, India
Sep 28, 2004 12:00 AM
65
Hanuman Baba
-------------
As far I know the Americans, they hardly take on people. They only take on ideas and thoughts of people. Lalit's concern is right - How do you manage to be in US ?
Sriram
Chennai, India
Sep 28, 2004 12:00 AM
64
guys, know something?
---------------------------------------
the Congress-Muslim League coalition government of Kerala has deleted the word ‘Gujarat’ from the national anthem published in the text-books of Class IX. As per their ‘amendment’, the students of Kerala now sing the anthem thus: “Punjab, Sindh,--, Maratha, Dravida, Utkala, Banga….” The Education Ministry in Kerala is headed by a Muslim League leader, E.P. Mohammed Basheer.
-------------------------------------------
Cmon' seculars, defend this move... its been long time since I read a good joke.
Sriram
Chennai, India
Sep 28, 2004 12:00 AM
63
Should be read as: "...
the royal Priest IS a Hindu brahmin from State of Bihar."

Sorry for Typo.
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, USA
Sep 28, 2004 12:00 AM
62
Gorgon,

First folks like you, communist historians spoke about Hindu right as Fundamentalist. Guess, after Partha Chatterjee wrote that article, "Secularism and tolerance", you don't call Hindu Right as fundamentalist anymore. Now you are trying to brand Hindu right as Facist. man, take a break. Open your eyes to facts ! Indian Philosoiphy is MOST PLURAL ! WE DON'T CLAIM OUR GOD IS THE ONLY GOD, DESTROY ALL OTHERS !

Even today, in a predomintantly Buddhist country like Thailand, the royal Priest if a Hindu brahmin from State of Bihar. During the Gupta period, supposedly "Golden period" of Ancient India, kings were Hindus. But the best architechture like Ajanta, Elora, Saranatha were based on Life/teachings of Buddha. Why on earth, a Powerful Hindu King would allow the best art work to depict Lord Buddha?

Your answer lies here. Religions of Old world, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zorathrustism, Judiasm, Jainism, Shintoism....can co-exist with each other. Because, their philosophy is like that..They can adapt, change over time. This is NOT the case of "revealed religions", like islam or Christanity. read Naipaul..You will understand it.

If you look closely, you will find that even Communists are talking about "age-old" Indian Ethoes, which is tolerant. Very Good. Guess now the question is: IS TOLERATION ACCEPTABLE EVEN WHEN YOU SEE PERIL, LIKE ILLEGAL BANGLADESHI INFILTRATION?
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, USA
Sep 28, 2004 12:00 AM
61
ANIMA SARKAR,

You say that I am correct in pointing out that after the likes of you are done with the moslems your next target will be the jews. Yet in another post you claim "already Jews and Hindus are natural allies.... We will prevail". So it's unity when you want to fight a common so-called enemy and later you can turn upon the same people.

How well you portray the mind of the extremist- who is essentially blind of faith/ religion or morals. The fight should be against such people & thoughts not against a particular religion, group or country. Why don't all you moslem-bashers understand this?
gorgon
Hawaii, USA
Sep 28, 2004 12:00 AM
60
Hanuman Baba
____________

I believe you must be resident in the zoo, whereever you live. You dont deserve to live with civilised people.

If the US authorities got to know you better, you would soon be deported to Pakistan.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Sep 28, 2004 12:00 AM
59
Mr.Hanuman baba,
Please control your language. Mr.Bagai has a right to his opinion. If you can not express your opinion in a civilized manner, please do not post here.
Outlook allows people to post their opinions without editing. I for one admire them for that and would advise you to not abuse the privilige.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Sep 28, 2004 12:00 AM
58
The case of Gudiya, Arif and Taufeeq negates all the +ve aspects mentioned in this article. Incidents like this show the world that while the common Muslim may want to progress in life, their life is controlled by the religious leaders and there is nothing they can do/want to do about it. Muslims need to break free of all the strings they are attached to and succeed in life.
tom
Houston, USA
Sep 28, 2004 12:00 AM
57
Hey shithead Lalit, US is for real people, not fake wannabe 'intellectuals' of your kind who need a shrink.

Stop spreading hatred. There are some muslims who are not fanatics and are trying to come out of the traditional mould. Instead of supporting their effort, you are pushing them further into alienation and fanaticism with your hatred. Don't you get that? Are you a retard or something?
Hanuman Baba
Texas, USA
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
56
Much as I would like to believe the claim of modernisation of Indian Muslims, nowadays I find more of them, of both sexes, on the street and workplaces. Now they are distinguishable by their Islamic dress, which was not the case a few years ago.
R. NARASIMHAN
CHENNAI, INDIA
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
55
Your story on Indian muslims opens with a line from Ghalib and breaks it, as if to suggest you're reproducing the entire couplet, which in its full form would read as follows:
ranj se khugar hua insaaN, to mit jaata hai ranj
mushkileN mujh par padeeN itni ke aasaaN ho gayeeN

Satyanarayana Y
Satyanarayana
Hyderabad, India
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
54
Hanuman Baba
-------------

Apart from the "we " is there anything I said that you find so infuriating.

If you can not control your temper, and can not behave in a civilised manner you should stop
reading my mail.

On the whole I wonder how people like you get into the states. Thats no place for you.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
53
Hey Lalit, nobody asked you to make 'conclusions' for the rest of the world. So shut the fuck up and keep your bullshit to yourself. Stop using the word 'we' and speak for yourself when you make a comment. Did your dad make all decisions for you? Why are you imposing your comments and making it for all? Don't have friends and family to talk to? Man, you need a shrink.
Hanuman Baba
Texas, USA
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
52
If Naqvi wants to say that Muslims have started emerging from the shadows only recently, he should have given a reason as to why they weren't able to do that for the past 50 years. Particularly, when the state was supposed to be in their favour in the socialist raj than the liberalization era? Where's the data to back Naqvi's assertions? We have had many ripples in the pond since independence. The question is whether there's something more than a ripple.
Vishwanath Rao
Bangalore, India
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
51
Ekadmi
_________

Thanks for the article . A clear account of the
civilisational conflict.

I had a vague idea about his conflict even before I read Huntington and Naipaul. However
though both are respected in the west , our secular crowd usually sneers at them.

The peaceniks in Britain before world war 2 with Neville Chamberlaine as PM also refused to believe in the growing threat of Nazism.Never bothered to read Hitler's clear meessage in his book Mein Kampf. They sneered at Churchill and his forebodings til the time Hitler invaded Poland and Belgium and Holland soon after.

The behaviour of our secular crowd is the same.
They play down the threat of Islam to India, sneer at the knickerwallahs and are feverishly
looking for the elusive muslim liberal role models.Europeans had similar hopes but have now given up. Britain's antiterrorist legislation is being aimed at the muslims, and France has shown
what it thinks of muslims wrt Hijab legislation.

Europes discomfort with Islam is revealed in
its strong opposition to entry of Turkey into Europe.

The pity is that whilst muslims will use any tactics against their percieved enemies, the other side has lots of liberal inhibitions .
However in any further conflicts the west may drop its inhibitions and use its most powerful weapons .


lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
50
AIMPLB still objecting suggestion of Changing Syllabus of Darul Uloom? Yes, read yourself...

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/h olnus/002200409271960.htm
Tanmoy Ghosh
Burdwan, USA
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
49
If muslims were to get a chance to free themselves from the orthodoxy, then it is good news for India and the whole world. It can be achieved only by encouraging the modernists in Islam, who, though very few in number, look beyond the bounds of their religion. To that effect, an article of this kind was long awaited.
Gowrishankar E S
Derry, UK
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
48
Dear Lalit,

Hindus suffer from ostriches-mentality and are illitrate since they do not wish to read the writing on the wall.

Here is an excerpt of an article in The Pioneer about Islamic Jehad throughout the world:


* The first eight crusades were confined to Christians and Muslims. The current conflict is Muslims versus most non-Muslims. The bone of contention of the first eight crusades (between 1095 AD and 1217) was the holy land of Jerusalem. The present conflagration is for civilisational survival and is spread across the globe from Australia to the US.

* Professor Samuel Huntington has proved remarkably prophetic and much earlier than he might have expected. It is doubtful that he anticipated the global scale of the clash which has developed into Islam versus the rest. It is true that neither France nor Germany supported the US in its intervention in Iraq. Nevetheless, domestically, France is under greater social tension than perhaps any other country. With its Christian birth rate declining and the Muslim population increasing, it is not very far in time when the Catholic land of St Joan may become an Islamic republic.

* Germany already has five per cent Muslims and, no matter how agitated the neo-Nazis may be, these five per cent are multiplying while 95 per cent Germans are going down in numbers. The Dutch have their own cup of troubles which were highlighted by the assassination of the right wing leader on the eve of the last election. Across the Channel, the British are being pestered for a separate Islamic parliament and the post-9/11 situation has been sufficient to justify the deportation of several mullahs.

CONTINUED...........
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
47
Dear Lalit,

Here is the remaining article:

* To return to the continent, enough has been reported on former Yugoslavia and the massacres in Bosnia-Herzegovina as well as Serbia. Further east, the civil war in Chechnya is a decade old. Joseph Stalin had tried to pre-empt it by wholesale transfer of the Chechen Muslims to Siberia. Had Nikita Khruschev not brought them back to their original homes, the current conflict may not have arisen. The recent Chechen retaliation in Beslan (Caucasian region of Russia) and the killing of several hundred school children is too fresh in memory to need any reiteration.

* Buddhist Thailand has its own share of woes with Muslim terrorists. Catholic Phillipines is facing secession at the hands of its Islamic citizens. The massacre of Australians in the Hindu region of Bali took place only a couple of years ago. Terrorists have recently followed up the attack by killing nine people and injuring many more at the Australian embassy in Jakarta. Sinkiang (or Xinjiang) in China has seceded from the country and was brought back after the Maoist revolution of 1949. That, however, was not the end of the tension which continues even today. Even Africa has not been spared by Islamic aggression. Sudan is witnessing a Christo-Islamic civil war. The Nigerian north had invaded Christian Biafra which is the south east of the country. Although there is truce for the last several years, no one knows for how long.

* The central point is that a global war on civilisational lines is being fought and there is no doubt about the cause. It is repeatedly clarified by the terrorist-aggressors that they kill in the name of Islam as part of their jihadic duty to God. It should not be forgotten that the Hindu civilisation has been facing aggression since Mohammad bin Qasim in 712 AD. The Delhi sultanate was inaugurated at the turn of the 12th century after Prithviraj Chauhan was killed in the second battle of Tarain in 1194 AD.

* Thereafter, until the 18th century, to be more specific until the third battle of Panipat in 1761, Indian history was a tale of continual invasions. The Indian subcontinent, which began with a zero Muslim population, is today not much less than 40 per cent. Just because the Hindus have been so tolerant as to not even recognise the conflict, no one has treated these centuries as a civilisational clash. Even Huntington has not noticed this historical fact.

* The Jews have been struggling for a century; in fact, ever since the Balfour declaration of 1908 which envisaged a homeland for the community in Palestine. Yet, it was not recognised as a clash of civilisations. The awareness that other civilisations were in danger began as late as 9/11. Better late than never. It must be realised that it is time for Hindus and Christians to call a truce over conversions in India and to concentrate on a world alliance against the terrorism of Taliban unleashed by Al Qaeda.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
46

Outlook – are you at all in touch with reality?! A small liberal class of Muslims has always exited which in no way is / was representative of the majority. If anything, this class has now perhaps become smaller.

Thanks to the bogey of victimization and growing influence and reach of ‘modern clerics’ and Islamic websites, conservatism and polarisation in educated Muslim community is actually on the increase. This is most evident in Southern states, which have highest literacy rate for Muslims. Till, some years back, a purdah-clad young woman was a rarity. Today, exclusive shops selling veils have sprung up everywhere and even software professionals sprout typical Muslim beard.

Muslims may claim that their alienation is a result of discrimination, but they too to create their own barriers which fuel alienation from other communities. Even today, among educated Middle class, we have Muslims who will not accept any elements of the secular lifestyle in religion neural situations. Muslims have to learn that they are part of a larger society and not a special entity.
Deepak
Dubai, UAE
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
45
For all those who keep iterating that the Hindu society is backward and barbaric and has to be more tolerant, take a look at the rational religions. Do you know when Rome approved the heliocentric theory (that Sun is the center of solar system) ?? Well, any temple has a shrine for the 9 planets and it is there for everyone to see that Sun is at the center of formation. Do you expect an irrational religion to do that ??
The problem with us is we were taught history in a wrong way. If we are backward (though I dont think so) it is not because of following Hinduism but because of deriding and mocking it. The history which we have been taught in your schools is meticulously spinned by "eminent historians", "distinguished social scientists" et al., to fit into the Aryan invasion theory, which edicts that the Aryans were Europeans who descended from somewhere in the east and drove away the Indus valley people (dravidians) down south. Sanskrit and Vedas came along with them. This is how history is taught which leaves us with no pride. The other day I stumbled on a site where a well-heeled Indian was saying Arthasastra was immoral in that it advocated deception to win wars. And what does our friend Sun Tzu (the author of "Art of War" - a book claimed to be read by the Americans and Europeans and Japs during the 2nd world war) say ?? To quote from the book.. Chapter I - "Laying plans" - verse 18 "All warfare is based on deception". So when Sun Tzu says so, all of us Indians go kowtowing at the intellectual prowess of the Chinese. And we wont stop there. We go on to say Indians wrote only KamaSutra. We have been meticulously stripped of our pride for the nation by these people.. If I were in MM Joshi's shoes, I would have left the IIMs in peace and dismantled the JNU and Aligarh Univs. Thats where toxic historians and sociologists are bred.
Every community registers the foreign invasions and rules as "holocausts" while our "eminent historians" have taken great pains to whitewash hundreds of years muslim rule as "golden era" or art, architecture and culture and the ages before that as dark ones. That is secularism, or more correctly Nehruvian Stalinism for you.

You guys should read the books "Eminent historians" and "Indian Controversies" by Arun Shourie. Do you say Arun Shourie is a right wing fundamentalist imbecile Hindu ?? Then go on to read "The Invasion that Never was" by Michel Danino. If you say he is a Hindu fundamentalist too, I can do nothing but to laugh out loud at the vacuum in your heads.

Finally, sometime back there was a "What if ..." issue of Outlook. Somebody had posted the comment "What if Vinod Mehtha had shame, what if Outlook wasnt there.. The quality of Indian journalism would have been higher". Can't find out who posted it, but if the poster is reading this, three cheers to you!!!!
Sriram
Chennai, India
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
44
While in college hostel, there were a couple (only 2) of muslim guys too. We used to watch cricket mathces in TV and these two guys would cheer every boundary Saeed Anwar scores off Indian bowling. How do you explain this ??? That they are too broad minded to encourage talent wherever it blooms? That the rest of us were too conceited and fundamental?
And all this didnt happen in an obscure college, but in an Engineering instituition in Chennai which is every class 12 student's dream.
Sriram
Chennai, India
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
43
I think its a great story and we should be writing more of these. Muslims in India are perceived as trouble makers, i think its high time the media spoke to the right muslims. The muslim leaders are stereotype and belong to the old school of thought and should be replaced by the young educated ones. I admire the journalist for doing such a story and would request him to write more articles on the subject. Best wishes.
Meraj Alam
Mumbai, India
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
42

"The Muslim representation in the higher echelons of the private sector is even worse. Asghar Ali is the resident director of Ashok Leyland in Delhi. He says that "you can count the number of Muslims at the top level in the corporate world on your fingertips." He believes that Muslims confront a subtle discrimination in all organised sectors"

The discrimination what the muslims face, to a certain extent is their own making. It is not uncommon for the so called educated and liberalised muslims to demand time for the friday prayer during office hours. Also add the fact that they try to look as different as possible from the remaining set of people through their flowing beards and moustacheless faces!!!

The police force has a rule, that all its officers must be clean shaven. Muslims refuse to shave their beard citing religious reasons. Why in the world should religion enter into the day to day work no body knows.

sanjeev
hyderabad, india
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
41
RSS brigade active again. Fascist cant digest a rational article
nirvan
Delhi, India
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
40

The kids go to a ‘regular’ school, DPS, and also receive religious instruction at home.

I wonder what that religious instruction sounds like. That Islam is the only true religion? That Kaffirs will burn in hell? That non-believers in Allah and the Prophet should be converted to the 'religion of peace', failing which they should be eliminated?

The hypocrisy of the 'liberal' Muslims (like those presented in the article) is breath-taking. Not for a moment do they see anything wrong with Islam. Nor will they admit that the anti-Muslim sentiment is largely their own making. They accuse all and sundry for their community's ills - the media, the 'Hindu fanatics' and what not. Ask them whether the fatwa on Rushdie is justified: of course, it is not, but Rushdie had ridiculed the prophet, offended the billion strong community, he is a bad writer and is better dead than alive. What about the hijab? : it is a symbol of progress, as girls wear it on their own volition. Islam? : it is of course the religion of peace.

I find the Al Quaeda's position infinitely more honest, simpler and easier to deal with.

The only silver lining is the story of the living-in couple towards the end. If I remember correctly, Thasni Banu had declared that she and her fiancee were rationalists and atheists and do not care a damn about the religion of peace.

Given favourable circumstances, this will become the Underground Railroad out of Islam : collective apostacy. And our only hope.
Acidburn
Bangalore, India
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
39
Ekadmi

______________________

A brilliant account of the ground reality.

However I now feel we are like the Spartans at
Thermopalae outnumbered by the enemy.We have the right arguments but it seems that the enemies have the numbers. We all know that the muslims and the christians will always vote for the secular parties. Their agenda as they see is to keep the Hindu nationalists parties out of power, regardless of the merits of the
parties that they support. As stated by AbdulHaq, these parties are not good for development , but most important is that they allow them to practice theit faith. The same situation applies in some European countries. They are always against the conservative liberal parties.Support is given to the promuslim parties, though these are now fast disappearing

The remarkable thing is that there are so many well educated Hindu's who are actively supporting
a anti nationalist agenda.I can not find any paralells to this in Europe or any other part of the world. In the final instance the Europeans
will defend their own nationhood, and culture,
of which are so rightly proud of.

I suppose that some Hindu's at least must suffer from a death wish. These people are
worried about the motives of the west, and have just forgotten the rule of the muslims that lasted several centuries, with catastropic consequences.

I can foresee that in the foreseeable future
a Islamic wave will sweep over Assam, Bengal. Bihar and parts of UP. These states have already 30 % muslims, and with the results of the census
now available, we can say fairly that the muslims will outnumber the others in the foreseeable future.Welcome to the new Islamic state of greater Bangladesh.

Soon after, the Hindu's from this region will
come trickeling into India.And that and other developments will provide for much introspection in the website of Outlook India.



lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
38
strong objection to the use of word "silent majority" as it is only a silent very small minority
yash khadgawat
bangalore, india
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
37
"Secularism" ki jai ho !

More per capita was spent Kashmiri terrorists in Jail than diaplaced "bloody" Hindus driven out from Kashmir valley.

Incredible! But true. Can anyone contact Guniness book of World Records !
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
36
I am sorry I forgot to list ekaadmi among the brilliant commenters club in my previous comment to anotknown.Gret comments eksaab .All you club members ,keep writing and soon the pseudosecs will be in front of an awakened Indian people .Too bad it has taken more than 50 yrs to
expose the Hindu traitors who surrendered 1/3 land to islamic conquest in 1947 and yet allowed
muslims to live on both sides.Even a child knows how to divide property.But not these Hindu traitors.Gandhi NEHRU ATMAS HAVE A lot of explaining to do.The evidence points to them being pimps for islam and their pseudosec tribe eg mehta,jha and nayar have continued on for 55 yrs calling this islamic pimping secularism.I believe all these traitors should be tried for treason and for complicity for hindu deaths since 1947.

Read ekaadmis detailed comment about the 10 point
secular islamic srategy
n gangadas
austin, usa
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
35
Superb writing anotknown.keep it up.Your comments on the article was awesome.

In a meritocracy the journalists should be more analytical than the readership.But in India with nepotism and corrupt patronage in media we have corrupt writers like saba getting a paycheck while quality brains like you,dharma,
lalit,raj,raghu reddy ,anima are probably into other careers. That require more than drop outs who happen to know English.These Indian media scribes are people who could not compete in competitive professions and took to journalism.

Somewhere they started believing that knowing English made them intellectuals without ever having taken an IQ test.Shows how feudal and elitist this media lot are.And to think that they have pretensions to be progressive.

Any wonder that many readers like me just skip the main articles in English media and jump to the comments section.

Anyway anotknon keep writing along with the brilliant minds named above.I am glad dhArma is back.Really enjoyed his comment.
n gangadas
austin, usa
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
34
How many hindus get jobs in minority colleges and institutions?come out with that statistics too.Lets discuss then.
sampathkumar
chennai, India
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
33
Tipu Sultan Advanced Study and Research centre in Bangalore ... educating Mullahs & maulanas in other religions .. for what purpose ... Is it to "secularize" them ... or to provide ammo for Dawaah ? Lots a Christian organizations have similar studies so that it becomes easier to convert the other guys ...

I wonder why the authors didnt talk about Tipu Sultan Blah Blah Institutes efforts at making secular graduates into mullahs ...

http://www.islamicvoice.com/august.2000 /community.htm#cou

Asghar Ali / Javed Akhtar ... minorities tend to carve niches for themselves in societies ... If Muslims are underrepresented in top echelons of the corporate world ... lets look at the number of Muslim graduates coming out of teh IIM / IIT etc ... Are these guys saying that a Muslim coming out from IIT/IIM will not be given a job if the HR manager comes across a less educated guy from his community .. And Asgar .. was there someone from your community to give you a break at Ashok Leyland !!! And what makes Javed think that talent etc are not the sole criterion for success in other industries .. . hey at least other industries dont have the casting couch .... This duo of whiners are f#$%ing morons

Najmis realization that they are fortunate ... is one that must be realized & internalized by all Muslims staying in India .. Indian or otherwise ..

Efforts by Javed to drag Mulsims into the 21st century into a plusralistic India are welcome ...
Rasheed of Mallapurams case is a real eye opener ... If Rasheed or all those other Islamic cretins are really Indians .. then Bharat Natyam, Kathakali , Kalari etc are also his culture ... those Muslims opposing him are just Muslims in India .. not the hyphenated Indian -Muslims ...
These are the kind that should have been thrown out ... one Indian Muslim in a Million Muslims .. thats the statistic ... and thats what Hindus dread ... Indian Muslims like Rasheed are fine & must stay ... they provide the spice to this gorgeous Dish called India ...

BUT ... other Muslims need to get the hell off India ... theyre like Jalapeno peppers ... once theyre in large nos in the dish ... they smother every other ingredient ...

Muslims had better start creating ripples really fast ... On one hand is the tidal wave generated by Osama et al. and on the other is the tsunami composed of non-Muslim societies that are increasingly fed up of Muslims ...

Start keeping mullahs & aspects of teh Koran in the deep freezer, hop on to the nearest time machine & come to the 21st century .. embrace pluralism, respect for human rights, other religions, other cultures et al. and a world of brotherhood, opportunities & love awaits you ... failing that its crazy Israelis, stupid Americans, fanatical Hindus (like me), bloodthirsty Russians etc...

Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
32
Mr Gongon, and other 'secularists"..

Folks, you guys are being fooled by Left-Communists. Read yourself, what Nehru wrote just before sacking Namboodiripad Govt. This is described by S. Gopal in his celebrated biography of Nehru. Note, neither Nehru or Prof Gopal are treated as Hindu nationalists ! Nehru was furious seeing Imre Nagy, Prime Minister of Hungary being hanged by Communists.

[Nehru] holidaying in Manali, suddenly saw civilization as, mentally exhausted and unable to cope with the parid pace of change in human life..rationalism too seemed inadequate--Communism..ultimately failed partly because of its rigidity but even more because it ignored certain essential needs of human nature..India had to evolve her own peaceful approach..perhaps we might also keep in view the old Vedantic ideal of the life force which is the inner base of everything that exists..(Page 61-2)

Any takers? Do you see, how Left/Communists highjacked the agenda of True Nahru? In the absence of Nehru, there were big strong leaders who called communists bluff..Indira compromised. Rajiv was murdered by "communist" LTTE. Now Sonia listens to Communists everyday...Change it folks..else big bloodshed is coming..
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
31
Gorgon wrote "Eliminate/ seggregate/ burn/ convert them.... then who's next? The Jews ofcourse, they are after all the closest to Moslems in customs.... and then- Christians..."

Correct Gorgon. But do you appreciate the followings as well?

But what's the ground situation? Bengal, Bihar, Assam, whole of North East has gove a serious demographic change over the years? Does "secularism" mean this? Then please tell us. What action is taken by Indian State? Why two differnt laws on Foreigners? Any idea about IMTD act of Assam? Is there any country in the whole world where we has a Foreigners act like
IMTD? In mid 90s, Jyoti Basu just dismissed the issue of illegal bangladeshi infiltration. When asked, he looked below a table, and said: "I don't see any Bangladeshis" ! His Governor, TV
Rajeshawar, game him a report later80s/early 90s on perild of Bangladeshi Infiltration ! Its much before what Gen SK Sinha wrote as Assam Governor in late 90s. Or Read from Outlook.com an article which appeared 2 days back: http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20040 920&fname=wasbir&sid=1 (no gap).

Why different Governments are Spending more and more on Madrassa education? Did you/me go to Govt funded "Hindu pathshalas"? Isn't that the reason you/me are successful? WHY a NATIONAL EDUCATION POLICY IS NOT IMPLEMENTED? Please note, I have't asked for banning Madrassas. Let those run, but in private capacity. Why even Govt Funded Madrassas' syllabus is NOT Upgraded? Even in a "progressive state" like West Bengal? Where Jyoti Basu was CM for 25 years, Syed Nurul Hasan (a true educationist) was Governor two terms?

Lastly a philosophical question on Nation State: As we know India is a Nation State. What's the purpose of this Nation State? Does modernizing its people important part of Nation-state's
mandate? If yes, then no action is taken by Nation State on blatant violation of basic human equality of man-women? Their rights? Importance of Modern Education?

WHAT DO YOU SAY Gorgon? Does the issues stated above, affect Indian nation State? Please let us know.
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
30
“The trick in eating crow is to pretend it tastes good.”
-William Safire.

This article by the Outlook’s dangerous secularist scribes is a blatant proof that, as usual, these uncouth Congress’s sycophants are trying to exploit the gullible Muslim community as their exclusive convenient ‘political straw man’.
Folks, this horrible bunch of secular black-hearted monsters have always used Muslim emotions to justify their existence. In the past they have pitted Muslims against Hindus to survive as a political force. They have habitually lied about and created Hindu bogeymen to frighten and isolate Muslims into the pseudo secular Congress’s vote bank ghetto.
This short sighted and shallow propaganda not only hardened the resolve of the liberal Hindus, which drove them into hard uncompromising angry Hindu camp but also frightened and drove the fearful Muslims into sense of insecurity. This is a classic pseudo secularist’s political tactic called ‘divide and rule’.
At last, the ghost of the past has come to haunt our third rate mediocre Outlook’s secular intellectual gang. Since the majority of the Indians are now aware and extremely wary of these two faced treacherous secularists, the Outlook’s barefaced t scribes are trying to exploit the unsuspecting people’s sentiment by using ‘token Muslims’ to justify their crass and treacherous existence.
Folks, we are picking fight with the wrong enemies. First we have to destroy these pseudo secularists to gain trust of the minorities and start the healing process. I would like to give benefit of doubt to Mr. Mehta’s Outlook but its scribes have so far behaved like one hellish dangerous fifth column. They have deliberately created discontent, insecurity, fear, and divisions in our great country to prolong their Congress master’s rule.
It is high time we destroy this pseudo secular force, before this uncouth fifth column’s verbal civil war leads to actual bloody civil war.
Raj
Toronto, Canada
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
29
The real liberal muslim was shah bano who stood up as the warrior for muslim women when she claimed money from her husband.Why has this valiant lady been kept in the dark by all media?For me she is the true revolutionary,real courageous lady.Why not portray her in the article?The current media is even afraid to publish an interview of her fearing backlash from orthodox.
President abdul kalam is another liberal muslim.He is a vegetarian,a bachelor,and avid reader of bhagavat geetha.He is liberal.Find more such examples.Not "father of six girls" example
sampathkumar
chennai, India
Sep 27, 2004 12:00 AM
28
Har de har har har ...

By the lice on the beard of the prophet ... The use of the guitar as a secular prop really cracks me up ... it will doubtless raise the blood pressure of our mullahs ... lahaul.vilakuvat

Sana looks cute .. she reminds me of my Muslim ex-flame ...

Outlook / Saba ... I think that the next column should be on exploring the sexuality of Muslim women ...
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Sep 26, 2004 12:00 AM
27
Karthik's Note on Population is very timely.

See for yourself how legislation for two-child norm came up way back in 1972, and many many states. But its subverted by "Left" !

http://www.hindu.com/2004/09/26/stories/2 004092602281000.htm (No Gap)

This aticle assumes more significance, when its from the Hindu, holiest of "secular" media. It shows the legilative history of two-child Norm dated 1972, for Government functionaries. State after state: Rajasthan, Maharashtra, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Andhra Pradesh, Orissa and Madhya Pradesh..all taken a similar route --trying to adapt a two-child norm for the state. Supreme court also upheld 2 child-norm of Harayana state for Panchayet.

Its a part of bigger debate: Indian state as a Nation-State, has any ability to modernize its societies, formulate policies for its betterment? I think, its emphatically "Yes". If urgent steps are not taken urgently: it will subvert Nation-State .
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Sep 26, 2004 12:00 AM
26
Vikas
__________

At least we have concluded that there is a muslim problem, though this is not recoganised by several state governments ie Assam, Bengal, Bihar and UP.In fact their leaders consider
that we ,as hindu fanatics are the problem.

After throwing many weird ideas around I have to conclude that there is no practical solution to the muslim problem. Islam will grow thanks to the
fertility of the Indian muslims and the relentless trickle from Bangladesh.

I watched an interesting programme about how
wine makers from the new world,were improveing the quality of their wines and giveing the French
wine makers a hard time. The countries mentioned
were Australia, Chile and California.

I would favour Australia for any one from India who is thinking of bailing out.Has excellent climate, beautiful cities and great for sports.
They make excellent wine also, Cabarnet Sauvignion,Chardonnay, and Shiraz.

Cheers.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Sep 26, 2004 12:00 AM
25
There's so much abuse happening here on this forum. If Outlookindia won't or can't stop it, at least the IP addresses of offenders should be published, so that the affected parties can take the matter up with the abusers' ISP's.
Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Sep 26, 2004 12:00 AM
24
Javed Akhtar says that Muslims are "well represented" in the media. I give it to the man for stylish understatement. Fact is that they virtually _run_ it.
Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Sep 26, 2004 12:00 AM
23
I think that because of all our postings on this forum on the state of Muslim religion in the world we forced Outlook to publish this cover story on "Indian Muslims" - so kudos for that.

I agree with Lalit over his assessment of the state of Muslim society in the world currently - though I certainly do not agree with his solution.

Muslims in the world today are a stunning example of eating their cake and having it too - examples galore.

At the time of partition of India - they wanted their own state based on religion but they also wanted the right to stay behind and enjoy full rights. They want people from other religions to respect their religion and be more understanding towards it but they themselves do not want to make any effort whatsoever towards reciprocating that expectation. They want the right to wear their religions symbols in liberal socities but they don't allow the same in countries where they are in majority.

There is an elephant in the room and the secularists are afraid to call it so - and they are trying to shoot the messenger instead.
Vikas Chowdhry
Madison, USA
Sep 26, 2004 12:00 AM
22
Guru
_____

Your use of certian terminology marks you out
to be the usual uncouth yokel , who having no arguments starts on the only thing he is good at. Insulting their opponents.

Berlusconi Italian PM is on record as saying that Islam is a backward religion, and this is my view also. Liberalism does not oblige one to
associate with bigoted muslims , since we have a complete difference in opinion on major issues.And remember it is muslims in Pakistan who used this argument to form their PURE Islamic republic. I have read many Pakistani's say that they were essentially different from Hindu's,and it was good that now thay had their own state.

Many Europeans whom I know, have told me how uncomfortable they were when visiting Pakistan.
Muslim men had a patronising attitude to women in general.Apart from this muslims have other curious views such as on music, art and culture,
which are generally at various with my views at least.Experience has shown that muslims and nonmuslims seldom live in harmony. Is that not the reason why muslims live in ghettoes and inside the walled cities.It is hypocritical not to acknowledge this.

Why in hell are you preaching to others how we should regard muslims or any one else .Next you will be lecturing European leaders ,why they are
stopping muslims from entering their countries.

If you are so fond of muslims, be free to live with them , or better still join the faith.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Sep 26, 2004 12:00 AM
21
Mr. ANOTKNOWN of QWERTY,AFGHANISTAN

There are enough Americans to counter the Christian fanatics in America. They don't need me. Individual freedom in America takes care of the fanaticism in them. That's why there are so many types of churches in America.
Guru
Washington DC, USA
Sep 26, 2004 12:00 AM
20
Lalit, I don't see you preaching respect for freedom of religion in any of your posts. I don't have any problems about your faith as long as it is person to yourself. Problem starts when you start showing a holier than thou attitude. No religion is free from idiots like you who do not appreciate liberal thoughts. You see irony in the liberals of muslim society, I see hope. That's the difference. Liberalism is not conventional wisdom. It's realistic wisdom for development and peaceful coexistence. Your fanaticism is conventional attitude of traditional, scared and selfish ego-centric people. The reason for all terrorism and wars. There's no intellect in your views that would help people develop together.
Guru
Washington DC, USA
Sep 26, 2004 12:00 AM
19
Ken
____

I am highlighting the muslim problem, and have come up with some surrealistic suggestions.

The muslim problem is being talked about everywhere. Europeans are trying their best to
stop the muslim exodus. In Holland, Belgium,
Austria, France, Denmark regimes have been elected on a antiforeign agenda.

Muslims should as a a start stop blameing others,and examine the reasons why they are getting to be so disliked.These have been discussed at great length in this website. As far as I am concerned it would be great to replace 20 muslims for one jew. The jews would be a great help for India, just like the Parsees. Even the Christians are allright, though I find their evangelical spirit annoying.

Hindu's are primarily worried over the growing muslim population, which will inevitably destabilse the country. We have the examples of this development, which resulted in formation of two neighbouring hostile agressive islamic states. Many Indians see them as enemies and hostile states and not neighbours.

So your comments that muslims can carry on growing unchecked in India, and that the door be
open for Bangladeshi immigration shows a mindless stupidity which is hard to beat.
For gods sake have we not enough backward and
bigoted people in India.

Just for the heck of it suggest in a letter to a American paper ,advocating unchecked muslim immigration to the USA.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Sep 26, 2004 12:00 AM
18
I am terribly sorry for these Muslims. Those filthy mullahs and "secular" publications like outlook must take responsibility. Instead of trying to help them, they try to cover up and increase their problems. Look at the BBC article again:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/sou th_asia/2540271.stm


Aasiyah Begum has given birth to 29 children she thinks, but five have died.


The first child was born shortly after Indian independence in 1947 and they have continued ever since.

She says birth control is against her religion - Islam - and adds: "It's a sin to have an operation. No prayers would be said at my grave when I die. Only people with serious health problems can have operations."
Karthik Sitaram
oxnard, USA
Sep 26, 2004 12:00 AM
17
This article is propaganda. After the Census figures came out, outlook is on a damage control mission. Its fairly clear that two islamic states are in the horizon in Assam , Bengal and UP.
I saw a article in BBC the other day. A muslim had given birth to 29 children !!!! 24 of them survived and 5 of them died.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/sout h_asia/2540271.stm

Believe me or not?. Even in that article, it said
that the guy had something like 6 children.
Pretending is no use.

Unfortunately, the mullahs say that birth control is out. So what does Outlook do? Start a propoganda exercise !. First articles by JAved something are published. Second they "reassure" us by saying it aint all that bad. Its only hindu fascists who are indulging in propaganda.

The pathetic fact is that we will head towards civil war if the demography changes.

I am stating some unpleasant realities. In West Bengal, the commmunists have delibrately allowed large number of bangladeshis to weaken the Hindu as a political force.

We are heading towards doomsday. Or more correctly our children or grandchildren are.

The rational response is not to treat muslims as outcastes, but ban madrassahs and modernisee them. Take away the haj subsidies and build primary schools instead. weaken the mullahs as much as possible. This is the only way. The alternative is social unrest and possibly civil war.
Karthik Sitaram
oxnard, USA
Sep 26, 2004 12:00 AM
16
Guru
_____

Asking muslims to convert to Hinduism or Budhism was not meant to be taken as a serious suggestion. Muslims are not as yet ready for any change however tiny towards modernism. Read
the comments from the muslim readers. Uncompromising, defensive and agressive.
Their attitude is , you change if you want, we are not for changing. We will follow the Prophet and the Koran ad infinitum.

By the way your inability to see irony does not say much about you. Your types of unsophisticated
and simplistic thinkers are the bane of this world. I bet that you have never had one new idea in your life, but have traveled in well defined grooves, mouthing conventional wisdom.

No Guru you, just a humble follower of the faith.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Sep 26, 2004 12:00 AM
15
Question: Moslems are the problem? Answer (from our learned so-called Hindu right-minded friends): Eliminate/ seggregate/ burn/ convert them.... then who's next? The Jews ofcourse, they are after all the closest to Moslems in customs.... and then- Christians... and so on and so forth... until we reach the next group... and then the next.... and then the FINAL SOLUTION dawns upon them .... a la Wachowski brother's Matrix saga.... destroy mankind itself! Brothers & sisters, lets make an honorable start.... like the noble lemmings.... pls hang yourself from the nearest pole as soon as u read this, jai ho!!
gorgon
Hawaii, USA
Sep 26, 2004 12:00 AM
14
GURU-ji of
WASHINGTON DC USA

I dont know which world you live in !!
Getting accustomed to the material pleasures of the US and spouting secular lines is hardly the sign of independent thinking. Your quickness in admonishing lalit bagai is not seen in the matter of islam and christianinty. These two religions have an official policy of proselytisation and 'freeing' souls from other religions. I am sure you have seen enough TV evangelists in the US. Did you care to write them a letter saying they were uncivilized or fanatical. Scared??

Don't pick on hindus because they are easy to beat up !!

Leave your cosy home and come and see how hindus have to struggle for daily existence.
anotknown
qwerty, afghanistan
Sep 26, 2004 12:00 AM
13
Naqvi tries very hard to make a case for the rising 'liberal' muslim, but unwittingly gives away many points in trying to explain his case. My comments of his points are in bold.

He says: "Of a backward, regressive people who breed like rabbits and refuse to change with the times.
"

read a later caption on a photo:"Jamal Hamid, far right, is an engineer who has worked with the Birlas and L&T.Later, giving in to his elder’s wishes, he joined the family crockery business.Father of six girls, he has ensured that all of them get the best education"

And this an educated muslim, mind you !!


"Says Dr Kamaruddin: "The entire community has acquired a conservative image because the media always quotes the wrong people. Why is it that moderate and educated Muslims are never approached by the media?""

And what do you have to say about idol worship??

"In north India, there has been a gradual but significant change within the community because of the economic recovery of the Muslim middle class that had been badly depleted after the Partition."

Just this statement negates the whole article. It shows that once muslims are educated and part of the elite they will divide the country

"He believes that Muslims confront a subtle discrimination in all organised sectors."
Is this discrmination because of a negative impresion of muslims, due to partition, kashmir, godhra etc.?. Well then who is to blame?

javed akthar:"."They have excelled in the film world because here the sole consideration is your ability and talent.There is no room for prejudice"

THis is a load of bull. With the consistent B grade movies filled with sleaze bollywoodtypically makes, talent is hardly a factor. Perhaps if you have henchmen like dawood does and the fact that he prefers muslims is the reason. Is it that the khans have superlative acting talent than a hindu guy is the reason they reign on top? you figure !!

The journey from the Partition of India to the demolition of the Babri mosque to the Gujarat massacre has been traumatic for the community

Muslims wanted the partition of india
Muslims demolished the ram temple to build the babri mosque
muslims burnt a train full of hindus that triggered the gujrat riots

And now you also a want a therapist to heal your 'trauma' ??


"India's deep democratic roots and civil society groups have played a vital role in helping the community to move on after events like the Gujarat riots.
"

Deep democratic roots are because majority of the indians follow hinduism that preaches tolerance. This 'democratic tolerance' was not produced out of thin air !!
Events like gujrat riots happened becuase you managed to enrage the hindus despite their tolerance !!


"The changes are complex and diverse. Sometimes barely perceptible and very often unrecorded.
"

probably if 70 % of the muslims become liberal the changes might be recorded and perceived !!
anotknown
qwerty, afghanistan
Sep 26, 2004 12:00 AM
12
How real reasons are not found, and gets murky in Vote Politics: An discourse from West Bengal

Let Congress , CPM decide which one is Important: development of Muslim society or Vote !True Stories from West Bengal..

Couldn't understand what's the rationale behind this article. The primary ingredients of a "successful" career is always Secular: "education". Look at the result of Ramkrishna Mission Schools (RKM) and that of West Bengal Madrasa Board. Students of RKMs top all state exams, IITs etc. Madrassa Board goers are hardly successful. The Reason? Look at the syllabus they follow.

This simple thing is unfortunately not understood by "moderate" Muslim leaders, and our "secular" leaders are worried for Vote-Bank. Left Front(LF) Govt is in Power in West Bengal since 1977. Its now spending 300 Cr annually in Madrassa education, up from 10 Crore in 1977. Result? Muslims has less than 5% Govt Jobs (population wise they are 26%), even less in private sector. Almost non-existant in new-ecomony.

So, what can be done? One CPM MP, leader of Minority Board, doled out Crores before vote for Muslims! Lets do "reservation for Muslims" ! CPM MLA in Andhra Pradesh has supported this. Even Irphan Habib, leading marxist historian/idealogue has supported it. Instead of doing all these, shouldn't they modernized the syllabus of the Madrassa Boards?

I can understand, Jyoti Basu may be uneasy ! But, then why Syed Nurul Hasan, leading educationalist, who was twice governor of the state, didn't take any interest in modernizing the syllabus? Buddhadev, current CM has recently understood this. But Jamat-E-Islami had organized huge demonstration in Calcutta and modernization is on hold !! CPM lost all 4 LokSabha seats from Murshidabad, the district having largest Muslim Population in India. Pranab Mukherjee's Party, Congress took advantage, and won all four seats !

Mainul Hasan, Ex CPM MP from Mushidabad is a secular guy, and a sincere one. He wrote a small pamphlet couple of years back for Muslims describing why "triple Talaq", "alimony" etc are
NOT good for Muslim societies. The same pamphlet was used by Congress to tell Poor Muslim villagers, that Communists are out to destroy Islam ! Added Masalas were how Muslims were
treated in Chechnya, China...

So, folks..lo..behold. Let Congress, CPM and "true" secular parties decide: Should the country, Muslim communities development would come first. Or their Vote ! All these are possible, in my opinion, because of "callous" attitude of Muslim middlec-class. They never protested against AIMPLBs, Sahi Imams, Syed Sahabuddins...

Let everybody decide: whether State has a role in modernizing communites/societies? If NOT, what's the nation-State stand for?
Anima Sarkar
Kolkata, India
Sep 26, 2004 12:00 AM
11
This guy Lalit Bagai asks everyone who is not a Hindu to convert to Hinduism or Buddhisim to be civilised! Lalit, grow up or better get some real education and stop your fanaticism. All religious fanatics (of any religion) are uneducated, uncivilised and sick. Learn to respect individual freedom of choice, thoughts and ways to find peace. You can be whatever you want to be. Respect the freedom in others as well. If you can't, you are inviting confrontation like any other fanatic. A confrontation is a win-lose game. The win-lose confrontation is not good for the team. Understand the meaning of the word 'team'?

Either you live in a win-win society or you fight each other and die or kill. It applies to idiots of all religions.
Guru
Washington DC, USA
Sep 26, 2004 12:00 AM
10
It is disheartening to note that Educated muslims that too the adirector of a company allege discrimation as an excuse for the failure of their community to make it big in the corporate world.
Most indian corporates are professionally managed and Asghar Ali's view that corporate bosses prefer to employ and promote their own clansmen is ridculous.The Hindujas(who i presume own Ashok leyland) should have probably appointed a sindhi as the director instead of a Muslim going by Mr Ali's logic.

True,the Muslims lost their intelligentsia to Pakistan but another community lost their Motherland. Compare the progress of the Indian muslims with that of the Sindhis, a small trading community, who lost everything including their motherland in the bargain for Pakistan.The sindhis recovered from the shock pretty fast and are settled in places down south like Chennai and coimbatore and they did not make any futile attempts either to regain their homeland thru violence.

The muslims will never progress if they blame prejudice as a reason for the failure of the community to come to terms with the changing times.The Muslims are under represented in the corporate world because of the inability of the community to produce outstanding students and scholars(One CBSE topper am afraid is not enough for 13 miilion people).

The muslims need to integrate with the Indian Middle class which is quite liberal in its oulook and stop looking to the middle east for directions and start questioning your holy books as the hindus have always done for centuries(Pardon me for my patronizing tone).
What do muslims in India get by staging dharnas the palestine movement.It is going to solve any of their problems?

My advice to the muslims would be come out of your Ghetteos,stop wasting your time in Dharnas and protests and remember education is your only chance to growth and prosperity.
sudharshan
madras, india
Sep 26, 2004 12:00 AM
9
One look at the cover and I knew it was going to be a busy week with skug-fests all over.

Mr Naqvi, it would have been better if you would have addressed the issue at hand - the fact that the muslim is modernising and is slowly emerging from the clutches of the mullahs and the AIMPLB.

However, you could not resist some right-bashing (BJP-VHP-RSS et al) - especially your line about the journey from Partition to Babri demolition to Gujarat Massacre.

Is it all that simple Mr Naqvi? what about the riots instigated by Muslims against Hindus? What about the Hindus driven out of Kashmir? Wht about the Hindus killed in rioting? Wasn't all that traumatic for the nation?

And now a new bogey is being floated that Muslims are discriminated during job recruitments - so that the secularists can use this as an appurtunity to create reservations for muslims and consolidate their vote banks.

When you reel out statistics that only 5% of parliamentarians are Muslims and only 2% of Ministers are muslims, there is not a single note of rebuke towards the precious secular congress party or the Laloos or the commies?

But you do find space to squeeze in a couple of lines about Babri and Gujarat.

And you did not deem it fit to mention the (in)famous Shah Bano case - how many of your modernising muslims brethren woudl now come out and say that overturning the Supreme Court ruling was wrong and the present secular government should now go by the ruling?

A couple of people living out of wed-lock, a young woman walking out of a troubled marriage, a young man learning Indian Fine arts are all you have to offer as proof of modernising muslims.

A few swallows do not make summer !!!
Srinivas
Delhi, India
Sep 26, 2004 12:00 AM
8
This is a very positive article by Outlook. I appreciate and congratulate Outlook to bring out the face of liberal muslims in India. Indian media should promote and encourage the liberal muslims in India which will counteract the fundamentalist muslims.

I would like more articles of this kind to come out and also articles like last time which condemned AIMPLB and there fundamentalist streaks.

This is help muslim community to comeout of the ghetto mentality and also make them much more progressive. I also believe that Muslims should comeout in large numbers for nation building and help in the progress of this great plural country. They should not show attitudes which make them believe as fundamentalists.

Abhishek
Abhishek Drolia
Raipur, India
Sep 25, 2004 12:00 AM
7
Congratulations to Outlook staff for bringing out such topics.We are a proud nation and every citizen have right to feel free. It has taken longer for our muslim brothern to recognise that they are part of the Indian fabric. Even after partition they have contributed to the nation.Religion is personal thing and we shud not wear it on our heart.We all have right to practice privately.If more muslims breakaway from uneducated Mullahas and go to public schools instead of Madrassa, they will be able to join the mainstream.slowely and stgeadily we hope more and more muslims will stand against the rigidity of mullahs and Kazis. The education has also less segregation between the religions. One doesnot ask a waiter if he is muslim or hindu while being served the meal.The cahin of orthodexy have to be broken and the revolution has started.The reason one finds fewer muslims in Govt jobs is lack of education. We have to get more people out of Ghettos and mix them with rest of the nation.Lower Parliament representation is due to secular system and as more assimilation occurs such difference will melt away.It is very encourgaing that despite the turmiol of partition, Babari masjid Gujrat and many communal riots, the community is finding its roots in Indian society and culture.I pray more will follow the movement.Pakistan might be a muslim country but the killing of Shia and Sunni does not give any security of being a muslim. We have to work for the unity of the nation.
Shadi Katyal
Marietta. Ga.., USA
Sep 25, 2004 12:00 AM
6
Vikas
____

I know some of my ideas about how to solve the muslim problem , border on the farcical.However
in 1492 the Spanish defeated the Moors. At
this point Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand gave the moors 3 options.

1 Convert to Christianity

2. Leave Spain.

3 Face execution.

Most chose to leave Spain. Some converted but
were never integrated in the Spanish society.
No one was executed.

This story was related by Professor Ishtiaq Ahmed in the Daily Times, Pakistan. I think he
used it to tell muslims in Europe to behave themselves, to avoid the Spanish solution.
India's situation is bad because the muslims form a very significant minority, and are growing
exponentially. They will at some stage destabilise India.

The best solution would be that the muslims
discarded parts of their medieval religion,
and abandoned their over done religiousity.
However there is no chance of this happening.

So we are back to square one, awaiting the arival of the Spanish monarchy.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Sep 25, 2004 12:00 AM
5
Lalit,

You advice that Muslims should choose to convert to one of the other religion to live a life with no shackles. Again I must disagree with you. Leave alone the absolute impracticality and far-fetchedness of the idea - for a moment assume that it is indeed possible and millions of Muslims indeed convert to Hinduism. What will change for them? What will be there position in the caste ridden Hindu social system? Will they be allowed to marry into any other upper caste Hindu? If they learn all the vedas and all other hindu scriptures will they be allowed to become priests? Not a chance.

On the other hand, will they become further ghettoised? Will they loose their sense of self-respect and identity? Absolutely.

I am simply not comfortable with the idea of one religion being superior to another one. I know that you tend to believe that Christinaity is an extremely progressive religion. You have to come to see the things some orthodox Christian priests have been upto in the United States. They have tried to condemn and deny communion to politicians who support abortion, they have tried to install the ten commandments in federal court rooms and so on and so forth.

The point being that no religion is perfect and conversion is not an answer.

I hope BP and the gang do not use this as a stick to beat you with because those morons do not understand the idea of a rational talk and the importance of not agreeing with each other all the time. But their attitude is also understandable - in Stalin's time if you disagreed with him you were put into a mass grave so that is how their instincts have evolved.
Vikas Chowdhry
Madison, USA
Sep 25, 2004 12:00 AM
4
Dear Ek aam aadmi sahab,

Thank you for your input.

I don't think we need to differ on issues we can agree upon.
I said "I agree that many Muslim women ‘have’ to wear hijab either due to familial pressure or societal constraints but many actually choose to do so".

You are also making the same point.

I am against extremism in any religion.
You can not force people to follow this or abandon that. Even if you succeed at some level, people will overthrow your dictates if and when they have a chance.
Long queues in front of barber shops and theaters in Kabul after the fall of Taliban were the pertinent examples.
Mohib Uddin Ahmad
Incheon, South Korea
Sep 25, 2004 12:00 AM
3
Mr. Ahmad of Korea,

All open minded people would like to welcome your thoughts on need to liberate Islam from the clutches of religious leaders.

However, when you say, and I quote "A girl with hijab asked them why the media always portrays Muslim women with hijabs under the impression that they have been forced to wear it.
It may not be true as in her case it wasn’t.
I agree that many Muslim women ‘have’ to wear hijab either due to familial pressure or societal constraints but many actually choose to do so", I would like to differ.

In Kashmir, college-going girls were openly warned to wear hijab failing which acid would be thrown on their faces. None of your Muslim brethern came forward to condemn this edict/fatwa.

So, the truth is different from what you want us to believe- simply that Islam does not wish to modernise and provide the freedom to its followers to make their own choices in matters of their day-to-day lives.
Ekaamaadmi
Mumbai, India
Sep 25, 2004 12:00 AM
2
It is good to see Outlook doing a story that tries to break the stereotypes into which all Indian Muslims have been molded into, most of them false.
We all are prisoners of our preconceived notions and most of the time we just try to justify them.

I remember one interaction between journalists and students in Kennedy Auditorium, AMU around a year back.
A girl with hijab asked them why the media always portrays Muslim women with hijabs under the impression that they have been forced to wear it.
It may not be true as in her case it wasn’t.
I agree that many Muslim women ‘have’ to wear hijab either due to familial pressure or societal constraints but many actually choose to do so (For more on this, read Prof. C M Naim’s article published in Outlook recently) .

The political parties have also played their role in the hardening of these stereotypes. They have always pursued the religious leaders whenever they needed to. Congress was forced into submission by the hardliners in the Shah Bano case and even BJP has to get a seal of approval from none other than Imam Bukhari in recent elections.
I mean come on, how many Indian Muslims think Imam Bukhari of some sort of leader.
Why this undue coverage to such people?

With the emergence of the educated working middle class, the awareness is increasing, and Muslims have slowly begun to realize the folly of leaving the religion to a select few.
All those chieftains of AIMPLB, it seems, are living in some other world totally unaware of the realities of today’s world.
They must have their ears near to the ground rather than the sky to realize what the Indian Muslim community wants.

And all those waiting for ripples in the pond, don’t be surprised when you get a mighty wave instead.
:-)
Mohib Uddin Ahmad
Incheon, South Korea
Sep 25, 2004 12:00 AM
1
"These small gestures maybe are ripples in the pond."

Thats a good summation. Muslims readers who are
educated never break the Islamic line. Its always excuses , and explanations. Never has anyone ever said that Islam could be wrong on just one point. Muslims will never progress if they continue to believe in the infallability of their most imperfect religion.

Furthermore the muslims are intensely aware of any injusice done to them. The fuss they have made of the Babri Masjid is just unbelievable
for a community whose ancestors have bull dozed thousand of temple in our country. And talking about Gujerat is also utterly sick, when they started with Godhra. Its the same everywhere.
Muslims feel they can attack any one with impunity(WTC) and are outraged when they are thoroughly beaten up subsequently.

Peace will come to our poor land when muslims abandon Islam and choose a more peaceful religion.Convert back to Hinduism , or Budhism, and join the civilised world. Then you can sing, dance or drink without running into trouble with your reactionary mullahs. Good advise I assure you.

lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark