Sanjoy Ghosh
Kali idols in Karachi's posh Clifton area
hindus in pakistan
Jai Kali Karachi Wali
They have their gods, their weddings, their businesses. These Hindus just happen to be living in Pakistan.
Bani is a Gujarati lady with moist red teeth and a wicked gleam in her eye. When she's in a good mood, the ancient temple sweeper with no confirmed human master will admit to being "between sixteen and eighty years old."

She sits at the gate of the Lakshmi Narayan temple, a small impoverished shrine that stands at one end of a creek in Karachi's prime real estate. Four young girls walk to the gate.
 
 
There are anywhere between 2.5 to 5 million Hindus in Pakistan. Ninety five per cent of them are in Sindh province.
 
 
The sheer beauty of two is completely wasted on Bani, who stops the girls with a wave and asks them to leave: "Muslims aren't allowed in."

"We just want to walk around and look," one of the girls, Rumi, says.

"Then go to the zoo," retorts Bani.

To the conventional secular urban sophisticate, this may sound like the dangerous portent of violent religious conflict. But there is no malice here. The entire exchange on this breezy Karachi evening is just about a marking of territory. The Muslim girls are far from hurt. They plead between giggles. "We just want to pray." Hirakumari, a few months pregnant and related in some complicated way to Bani, tells them, "Go pray to your god. You eat cows, make fun of our gods, ask if our gods don't feel cold, being naked..."

But she then turns and whispers with a smile, "They are actually lovely people, these Muslims. They will feed us for the rest of our lives, if it comes to that. Pakistan is the only place I call home but how can we let Muslims inside (the temple)?"


A volunteer allowing entry only to Hindus in the temple

A similar scene plays out at a crowded Shiva temple in Karachi's posh Clifton neighbourhood. It's Monday night, the busiest spell in the temple's week. Jayanti Ratna stands with a stick at the gate and screams 'Jai Shiv Shankar'. When someone doesn't respond he stops the trespasser with, "Muslims and Christians are not allowed."

Does it feel strange for a Hindu man in Pakistan to stand by a busy pavement and block local Muslims? "Not at all.

 
 
"It (Babri demolition) was the only time I felt I was in someone else's country," Satish Anand, film distributor.
 
 
I was born here. I belong here. I will exercise my right to serve my faith."

Today Pakistan's Hindus number somewhere between 2.5 million (a somewhat suspect official estimate) and 5 million (according to popular Hindu politician Kishinchand Parwani). Over 95 per cent of them live in the province of Sindh; most are poor farmers and labourers from the scheduled castes.


Deepak Perwani with his parents

Many of the worshippers at Karachi's temples are somewhat better off, and the calm affluence of Karachi's wealthier Hindus is worlds apart. Thirty-year-old Deepak Perwani, his hair dyed red, and a Ganesha tattooed on his right arm, is one of Pakistan's top fashion designers. His quick Indo-Pak analysis: "There is one major difference. Indians can't cut a salwar to save their lives and Pakistanis can't cut a churidar!"

As with many Hindus here, 'Inshallah' slips out of his mouth easily as a prelude to anything and he eats beef, never pork. A travel agent once booked him into a Lahore hotel as an Indian. "I was pissed off. I struck out the word Indian and wrote Pakistani." Six years ago when he wanted to open a store on an upmarket Karachi street, his friends asked him not to flaunt his name outside. But he was soon forced by market pressure to put his brand up in massive type—Deepak Perwani. "There's been no trouble, not a single incident outside my shop."

Perwani is celebrated and patronised by the rich and mighty of Pakistan, even honoured as the country's cultural ambassador to China. But he has just one "small problem" being in Pakistan.

Mathematical chance isn't on the side of a Sindhi Hindu looking for a suitable arranged match within the small community". The girl has to be imported," Perwani says, "since I am doing too well here to be exported." His mother Renu will parade him in Bombay, Dubai and Hong Kong, but as she says with motherly concern, "People in India or Dubai don't want their daughters to live in Pakistan.It's a mindset."

Renu's endearing motherly look turns somewhat severe when she considers the options for her son, "I would never accept a Muslim girl in my house. All my friends are Muslims and I know they are very beautiful people, cultured and nice. But a daughter-in-law is a different matter." In any case, her son can't marry a Muslim; Islamic law prohibits a Muslim marrying a Hindu. "I'd have to convert," says Deepak. "And I would never do that."


Danish Kaneria, cricketer and Hindu, his parents and wife Dharmita

In between the rich Sindhis and the poor Hindu farmers of rural Sindh is the middle-class setting of Danish Kaneria's home. The leg-spinner is only the second Hindu to play cricket for Pakistan. His new wife Dharmita is also part of the same Gujarati community. "We met at a festival," Dharmita says, almost shyly. Danish's elder brother Vikrant is engaged to Dharmita's sister, who will also live in the four-bedroom flat soon.


A Hindu devotee feeding a calf in the Swami Narayan temple in Karachi

Mrs Kaneria talks fondly about the temples of India, often referring to the country as "apna desh". Vikrant is surer of where he belongs. He echoes a popular belief among the elite here that life for the educated is much better in Pakistan than in India. "And there is no discrimination at all," he says. "The fact that my brother is playing for Pakistan proves that."

Kishinchand Parwani, a member of the National Assembly (equivalent to the Indian Member of Parliament) from 1988 to 1997, recalls that right up to the late '80s a steady stream of Hindus would migrate to India. "That was because of home-sickness but they soon realised that in India nobody was going to hug and welcome them just because they were Hindus from Pakistan. Hindus are safe in Pakistan but there is this fear that if anything like Babri Masjid happens, we will have to bear the brunt again. That was the only time Hindus here felt threatened."


Film distributor Satish Anand (actress Juhi Chawala's uncle)has released over 450 Pakistani films

A day after the demolition of the Babri Masjid, his staff told Satish Anand not to attend office. Anand, who is film actress Juhi Chawla's uncle and a Punjabi Hindu settled in Karachi, runs Eveready Films, which has distributed over 450 Pakistani films and a few Hindi films like Awara and Barsat. "It was the only time I felt like I was in someone else's country," he says. "After that things have been peaceful."

Yet beyond Karachi, low-caste Hindus in Sindh's small villages face a different reality. "The number of reported cases of violence against Hindus resulted in a distinct worsening in their plight over the year," says a report of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP). "On September 17, 2003, in broad daylight six armed persons attempted to rape three Hindu women. According to local Hindus, this was the seventeenth incident in the area in 2003."

Still, HRCP's Nadia Haroon will make a distinction between crime against Hindus and communal violence. "The attack on Hindu women is part of crime against rural women in general in Pakistan. Hindus are rarely targeted because they are Hindus but since the justice system is so slow and in some cases biased against minorities, criminals here feel that they can get away with such attacks on Hindus. "


A worker at the Hindu crematorium outside Karachi with the ashes waiting to be collected by relatives in India

On the outskirts of Karachi, near a graveyard, the Afghan taxi driver turns philosophical under the intense afternoon heat."When it all ends, Hindus and Muslims go to the same place." Here, by a Muslim graveyard is a Hindu crematorium. It has a library, though there are no books, only the ashes of Hindus who have passed on. The relatives await the visas that will let them immerse their ashes in the Ganga. In India.

 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Jul 02, 2004 12:00 AM
36
My grandparents migrated from Sialkot during 47 and had to abandon a big house and farmland for a refugee camp in Lajpat Nagar, Delhi.

Now was there a single, mind you a single person in Pakistan who stood up for them or for the ten million Hindus and Sikhs driven away. Unlike in India where we become a secular republic and stopped and pleaded to the Muslims not to leave this country? In 47 when the terrotorial division was done between India and Pakistan, the area allocated for Pakistan was supposed to accomodatwe all the Muslims of North India-- UP, Bihar, Punjab, Rajasthan etc. But while almost all the minorities of Pakistan were driven away, India did not take this evil, retrograde step.

Instead we produced soft idiots like Joseph and Vinod Mehta, who will portray Pakistan as a liberal, easy going fun state while INdia is the centre of communalism. Oh! You duffers, can a HIndu ever become a general in Pakstan? A President? Even the electorate is seperate. !! What rights of minorites!!!

The trouble is when some soft heads manage to eat a few free kababs at the Pakistan High commission, they forget about the deaths of 70,000 Indians killed by terrorists, about the attack on Parliament and Hijacking; about the continual denial of freedom to Pakistani women, and minorities. ANd the fact that PakistAN is a military dictatorship where the military needs to keep raising the indian bogey to deny Pakistanis democratic rights....
sanjay
delhi, india
Jul 02, 2004 12:00 AM
35
Mr.Taha,
For your kind information, "BJP" never started any riots - perhaps you can't understand the difference between a political party and rioting fanatics which is the norm in countries populted by your likes. A recent example: The Godhra massacre by Muslims started the riots in Gujarat.
Equating religious riots in India with anti-minority pogroms in Bangladesh and Pakistan will soothe your selective-secular-islamic-fundamentalist heart but religious conflict in India is ALWAYS initiated by the Islamic Fundamentalists with their 7th-century (in a civilized timeline, 9,000 BC) mindset.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Jul 02, 2004 12:00 AM
34
Not many on the Rants board seem to be aware of the politics of this story. So I'm glad to be of help. :-)

Outlook is on a mission to persuade us Indians -- or, more aptly, bulldoze us into believing -- that Pakistanis are just "people like us". Tandoori Naan, Chicken Tikka Masala, ergo Hind-Paki bhai-bhai, that sort of thing. Having read this eye-opening stuff in Outlook, we all realize what a wonderful people the Pakistanis are, the occassional attack on our parliament and the rare massacre in Kashmir notwithstnading. We discover that it's only our evil leaders (hint: BJP) who have been feeding us a false picture of the gentle, gracious, old-worldly folk that the Lahoris are. Then we begin to love each other dearly, and will live happily ever after.

With this ultrasecular philanthropic gameplan in mind, Outlook ordered M Joseph to publish a cover story on the youth of Pakistan. Which he promptly did. In this cover story, Pakistani Girls and boys get together, and swig beer. They dance and make merry. It's just like a scene out of a swank Bangalore pub. Therefore the Paki youth are just like our youth. QED. (Take note, ye Hindoos.)

Unfortunately for Outlook, the Pakistanis read the story differently. If Muslim girls gang up with boys and drink and shake legs and make merry, what does that mean? Islam khatre mein hain! How dare an infidel mag portray the land of the pure as a decadent terrain! How dare it cast aspersions on the chastity of its women! Rage swept across the length and breadth of Pakistan.

The High Commission in Delhi got into the act, and promptly dashed off a protest letter to Outlook.

Wisdom dawned on Outlook that it made an ass of itself. Where did the plan go wrong? In its zeal to target the story at us the Hindu fundies, Outlook hasn't spared a thought for the sentiments of the Muslim fundie!!

Therefore, a mea cupla was urgently in order. M. Jospeh was dispatched to the drawing board again. This time, he got his act together. Once bitten, forever shy. You don't want any more critical missives from the High Commission. Words of appreciation, maybe. Not definitely WTF-do-you-mean-by-that? kind. Thus was the story titled JKKW born. End of story.

Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 01, 2004 12:00 AM
33
A nice article by Manu Joseph. Its time Indians realised that all Pakistanis are not fundamentalists, neither do they subdue and harm every Hindu & Christian living in their country. While there are atrocities that take place in Pakistan, Bangladesh etc on minorities, Muslims and Christians in India also suffer from atrocities. The riots that take place every few years are not a one-off thing. It occurs with frequent regularity. Now that the BJP is out of power, it will try to consolidate its fundamentalist Hindu base by starting off a few riots. This will then ensure that the extremist Hindu votebank will go back to the BJP and it will be able to win a few elections that way. Thats what happened in Gujarat. If you don't make riots occur, then people look at other issues like roti, kapda, makaan for which the BJP has nothing to give. So let them all think of those horrible Muslims or those horrible Christians, and thereby vent their frustrations on the hapless minorities.
There is far too much talk of this great tolerance of Hindus, but anyone who has a look at the comments published on this article, will realise what a sham that is.
Taha
Buffalo, USA
Jul 01, 2004 12:00 AM
32
Mr.Joseph (from Karachi), accpet that you are a proud citizen of a sick nation founded on perverted principles out to murder the entire Humanity for Allah.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Jul 01, 2004 12:00 AM
31
Mr .Joseph dont talk about hindu tolerance..it was our tolerance that india became secular state even after creation of pakistan..Like most pakistanis you are more intrested in indian muslims rather than your own development. Spare sometime to read about your very own mujahirs.
The greatness of your country is exposed from the fact that all formea pms are either hanged or exiled. We dont need to learn about secularism from breeders of religious bigots. if you can site openion of praful bidwai it is because we have freedom of speech. It is not your medivial pakistan were atom bombb is termed as Isalmic bomb.

Sandeep Verma
Gorakhpur, India
Jul 01, 2004 12:00 AM
30
Some years ago I read Sir V.S.Naipauls book "Among the believers". He had written it after visiting four muslim countries, Iran, Pakistan, Malaysia, and Indonesia.

In this book he recounted some of his observations. One being the strong loyalty muslims had for Islam. The other was how muslims,
autocratic at home towards minorities , supported
democracy and secularism in countries in which
they were minorities. Not diificult to understand.

In India Nehru being an agnostic, along with Ambedkar framed a secular constitution. This
was in lines with their personal beliefs, but it may have had another purpose. Muslims in India who had supported the idea of Pakistan, were suddenly left in a precarious position. Nehru and friends may have thought they would make peace in the country by making a secular order.

However it must be clear to all that whilst the muslims want a secular order, it is not at the cost of their religion and culture, which is distinct. It has not worked. Because of the muslims ability to decide elections, many have
subverted secular ideals by makeing glaring concessions to them. Right ???.

The resulting situation is that there is a Hindu backlash, which has occured in recent years.
Tavleen Singh writeing in the Indian Express has
stated that Hindu fundamentalism is the result of muslim fundamentalism.

The same situation has occurred in western countries. The western countries want muslims to integrate and assimilate, which is against the
wishes of muslims. They want to retain and strengthen their identity by building madrassahs, friday prayers(men only) spececial
dress, food . Lastly a definate stance against the liberal European culture which they despise.. This has resulted in European back lash. Muslims and problems with them dominate media and the political scene.
And this is not due to the fundamentalist Hindu's.India is well respected and the Hindu religion has many sympathisers.

There is it seems a war of civilisation between Hindu's and muslims. But also one between Hindus and Hindu secularists. India has all the ingredients for a disaster,

In most countries the majority community respects and defends its core values. Not in
India, where some members of the Hindu community
are constantly engaged in a hateful campaign against the rest. No wonder India a house devided has succumbed so often to foreign enemies in the past.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Jul 01, 2004 12:00 AM
29
It seems I have tread on a lot of corns. The intolerance of the supposed tolerant Hindu stands fully exposed from the vitroilic observations about me some of which are downright abusive.

The truth hurts and absolute truth hurts absolutely.

If India is "specially kind" to its Muslim population, there are many reasons for it and the Indian Government will know best. Deepak has some idea why and I wish he would elaborate.

Finally let me reiterate that I am a Christian who has had a multi-dimensional world exposure in life having studied at St. Agnes in Mangalore, St. Stanislaus in Bandra, Mumbai, St. Patrick in Karachi, St. Gregory in Dhaka, Dhaka U, Karachi U and Centennial in Toronto, Canada.

About the Kashmir situation and the India-Pakistan situation I also read Kuldip Nayar, Prafulla Bidwai and Outlook India and India Today from cover to cover.

To clarify, I am not Manu Joseph, who is the writer of this article.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jul 01, 2004 12:00 AM
28
Dear Akash
We all know that you are from Bihar and this kind of language might be common in your state but please do not degrade the tone of discussion on this forum by using foul language. Outlook has trusted its readers by allowing to post comments directly without any vetting - don't abuse that trust. If you have a case then present it in a clear and succint manner with facts - name calling is not going to convince anyone of your viewpoint.
Vikas Chowdhry
Madison, USA
Jul 01, 2004 12:00 AM
27

To: Shankar Gopalkrishna:

Taxing the pilgrims and then providing an infrastructure is not same as providing subsidy. Indians any way pay taxes and are entitled to infrastructure (in India). And a correct comparison for Haj subsidy would be Hindus being provided a subsidy to visit temples in Nepal or Indonesia– not in their own country.

Special rights for Muslims started with their demand for separate state (now Pakistan), continue with the provision of their own personal law and an annual increase in Haj subsidy; their “special right” and protection under Article 30 to set up and run educational institutions of their choice with no interference or audit from outside; and now with a demand for job reservations.

Megawati is a Muslim. Though Indonesia is a tolerant country, no Hindu has been even given any important post in any arena.

The way Indian politicians, media and other establishment pander to Muslims, it is no surprise if 85 % majority feels ‘secondary’? Recent case is of Ishrat Jehan where politicians rushed to offer financial compensation – but no compassion for Hindu victims anywhere?

What have elections got to do with owning property? And just because something happens in North East – does it make Kashmir right? The essence is that Indians should be allowed to own and buy property anywhere in India.

No problem if one believes that his / her god is supreme – but, does one have to proclaim it from loudspeakers (5 times a day!) in any Multi religious society? Have you seen Jains, Buddhists or Sikhs doing it?

There is a government control and government audit on temple funds but no independent control or audit on Mosque funds (in many countries such funds often have found their way to activities that are now termed as ‘ terrorism’ or ‘ preaching intolerance’). Whereas Mosque funds have been used as deemed fit by the Waqf board, the temple funds have always got diverted to everything except upkeep of pilgrimage sites and for providing facilities to devotees.

Majority of Christian and Muslim schools are provided some kind of support by the state government. If the State is secular, then how come these schools get away with Hymns and Koranic verses? And if they can, why the ‘ Government schools’ where Hindu students are majority not start their mornings with Sarasvati Vandana?
Deepak
Dubai, UAE
Jul 01, 2004 12:00 AM
26
if u have any problem on judging the character of muslims then plz ask the indian goverment to remove the ban from the book which ambedkar had written against them without modifying it.Dr ambedkar too knew that how bad they were and he has written in his book.that is why his book was banned,because congress goverment is muslim inclinded party.congress people do care more for muslims than any goverment would have.if u don't know much than read what shahbuddin his doing in bihar he is spoiling bihar,every day he is killing hindus living there but no hindu can do any thing to them since they r giantly growing minority community.
if u say that those nri do not know condition of indian,then u must remember those r indian and they will be indian.and poke yours nose in indian affairs-son of bitch-PAKIATANI,plz keep your mouth shut.
akash yadav
patna, bihar
Jul 01, 2004 12:00 AM
25
Writing in CAPS, Sankar Sunramanian said: "THE PROVISION OF TRANSPORT, FACILITIES AND INFRASTRUCTURE FOR THE PILGRIMS AT AMARNATH ETC. IS INDEED A SUBSIDY."

The last time I checked, Amarnath cave is in India. Pakistan has not managed to grab it yet. How is it a "subsidy" to facilitate INDIANS to travel from one part of India to another? It is the government's job to provide transportation and also protect the lives of travelers from attacks by Islamic terrorists. By Subramanian's queer logic, all roads leading to Tirupati or Varanasi also constitute "subsidy" I guess.
Pradyumna
bangalore, india
Jul 01, 2004 12:00 AM
24
Gopalkrishnan
_____________

aaa. Megawati is not a Hindu, She is a muslim.

bbb. In Kashmir the muslims will never elect a Hindu, or a christian. In Punjab the sikhs will not elect a Hinduy . And be honest, and stop evading a direct question,

ccc.Can muslims make announcements 5 times a day
on loudspeakers in western democracies.It does not happen in Europe, and I find it difficult to believe it happens in Japan, Usa. Get your facts right.


ddd- Muslims can not pray on busy streets in
Europe.

And in case you watch CNN or the BBC, you must have noticed how intolerant the west is becoming towards muslims.

Its because the muslims can decide elections in certain states that politicians are bending backwards for them.

I can envisage how things would be for you in Pakistan or Saudia Arabia. It will be a learning
experience.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
Jul 01, 2004 12:00 AM
23
Some responses to Deepak's questions, since Manu Joseph is probably too wise to waste his time answering:

1.Of the 50 + Muslim countries, is there any Muslim country that provides Haj subsidy? The answer is NO, but the ‘secular’ India does! On the other hand, Hindu pilgrims to Amarnath, Sabarimalai & Kailash Mansarovar are taxed.

THE PROVISION OF TRANSPORT, FACILITIES AND INFRASTRUCTURE FOR THE PILGRIMS AT AMARNATH ETC. IS INDEED A SUBSIDY.


2. Islamic countries such as Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Malaysia have / had a sizeable Hindu minority - has any of these countries ever provided any special rights to Hindu minorities that Muslims are accorded in ‘secular’ India?

WHAT ARE THESE 'SPECIAL RIGHTS'? IF YOU MEAN THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF RELIGION, THAT IS GRANTED IN ALL SECULAR DEMOCRACIES - INCLUDING MUSLIM MAJORITY INDONESIA. THE LARGEST NON-INDIAN HINDU COMMUNITY IN THE WORLD LIVES IN 88% MUSLIM MAJORITY INDONESIA AND ENJOYS EQUAL RIGHTS.

3. Has any Muslim country (having other religious minority) ever appointed a Non-Muslim as its
President or Prime Minister?

INDONESIA'S EARLIER PRESIDENT, MEGAWATI SUKARNOPUTRI, WAS A HINDU. REMEMBER, SHE WAS ELECTED TO POWER IN AN 88% MUSLIM MAJORITY COUNTRY.

4. Is there any country where the 80% majority is treated secondary to the 15% minority?

NO. IT ISN'T TREATED AS SECONDARY IN INDIA EITHER.

5. Hindu-majority Maharashtra, Bihar, Kerala, Pondicherry, etc. have in the past elected Muslims as CMs; But it is not possible for a Hindu to be a CM of Muslim - majority J&K

BY THE WAY, IT ISN'T POSSIBLE FOR A BIHARI TO OWN PROPERTY OR ENJOY EQUAL RIGHTS IN 'HINDU' ARUNACHAL PRADESH EITHER. THE REASON IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS IN KASHMIR - IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION - IT HAS TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT THESE AREAS ARE GRANTED SPECIAL TREATMENT UNDER THE CONSTITUTION IN RECOGNITION OF THE FACT THAT THEY ARE SOCIALLY AND HISTORICALLY SEPARATE FROM 'MAINLAND' INDIA. WHY DON'T YOU ALL MOUNT A CAMPAIGN AGAINST ARUNACHAL'S RESTRICTIONS? IS IT PERHAPS BECAUSE IT WOULDN'T FIT YOUR ANTI-MUSLIM MINDSET?

7. Hindus make up 80 % population of India. If India is a Hindu state, how come Masjids and Madrassas are thriving? How come Muslims are proclaiming 5 times a day on loudspeakers that there is no God except Allah – that too in a multi religious society such as India?

BECAUSE INDIA IS A DEMOCRACY, AND ALL DEMOCRACIES ALLOW THIS. THEY ALSO ALLOW HINDUS TO PRAY TO THEIR GODS, TO CALL THEIR GODS THE SUPREME LORD OF ALL, AND TO POST VILE HATE MESSAGES ON MESSAGE BOARDS ATTACKING OTHER RELIGIONS.

8. Christian and Muslim schools can teach Bible and Quran in their schools, but Hindus cannot teach Gita or Ramayan or sing Saraswati Vandana in their schools.

NONSENSE. I SUPPOSE YOU THINK THE RSS-RUN EKAL VIDYALAYAS AND ALL THOSE VHP SCHOOLS ARE TEACHING THE KORAN? THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT *GOVERNMENT SCHOOLS* - NOT 'HINDU' SCHOOLS - CANNOT BASE THEIR TEACHING ON ANY RELIGIOUS TEXT, WHATEVER THE RELIGION.

9. The Temple funds subject to standard rules and regulations but Mosque and Madrassas are free to spend money the way they like.

ALL MONEY FOR RELIGIOUS ESTABLISHMENTS IS REGULATED BY THE RESPECTIVE STATUTORY BOARDS - THE VARIUOS DEPARTMENTS FOR HINDU RELIGIOUS PLACES, THE WAQF BOARDS ETC.

10. A Muslim President, A Sikh Prime Minister and a Catholic Christian as a power centre – what more proof do you need of our ‘Hindu state’?

A TESTAMENT TO THE FACT THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF INDIANS, THANK GOD, DON'T THINK LIKE YOU.

PERHAPS YOU MIGHT CONSIDER CHECKING YOUR FACTS BEFORE PREACHING HATRED.
Shankar Gopalakrishnan
Chennai, India
Jul 01, 2004 12:00 AM
22
I recall Karachi when in September we all flee to save our life.A nation who calls Ahmedies as Kafir and have recently changedthis to non-muslim on their passports. I wonder what is written on Hindus passport.I doubt if they can openly speak.I know few families in rural area who want to sell their land but offered 10 paisa on a rupees. Christian in Pakistan can get only street cleaner job I wonder what Hindus get.Notice how rape of Hindu women has been passed on as a daily routine.We wish our Hindu borthern all the luck.t
Shadi Katyal
Marietta. Ga.., USA
Jun 30, 2004 12:00 AM
21
Dear Mr. Joseph thanks for enlightining us that minorities are safer in pakistan than in india.
It is same great country were former pms are hanged and exiled.
The greatness of your democracy is clear from jamali incident.
Hindus are safe there because then cant raise their voice. The media will always find that they are in good condition . Hindus there know the consequences of speaking out the truth. After the media teem returns the will be at the mercy of religious bigots ( the only thing that your country produces) .
As far as unity of india is concerned ,first think of pakistan. The great islamic brotherhood could not prevent the seperation of bangladesh.
Mr. Joseph spare sometine to read the dawn and the jung and concentrate on pakistan.
Sandeep Verma
Gorakhpur, India
Jun 30, 2004 12:00 AM
20
Is the Joseph who is a regular contributor to the rants and raves section of Outlook the same as Manu Joseph, the person who has written this article?

It is my understanding that both are from Karachi and surely there cannot be that many Christians in Karachi to allow for two different Josephs or are there?
Vikas Chowdhry
Madison, USA
Jun 30, 2004 12:00 AM
19
Hey Joseph,

Thanks for the interesting vignette of Hindus in Pk. I am curious about certain sacred places in Pakistan such as Hinglaj, the Sun Temple of Multan etc. What is the state of these temples ? Can I as an Indian visit these temples ? I think Pakistan should start allowing Hindus in India to visit these temples.

Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
Jun 30, 2004 12:00 AM
18
We Hindus, are subjected to this non-sense by characers like Manu Joseph because we are/were never united in History. Even so-called Hindu Govt like BJP did not stop subsidy for HAJ and/or
stop taxing Hindu Pilgrims to Amarnath , Sabarimal, etc. We are our own worst enemies.
Vajpayee who should take blame for election defeat, is trying to make Narendra Modi a scapegoat! Our own leaders don't do anything for Hindus. He didn't do a thing for Ram-Janmabhumi,
ecxept talking ( which incidentlly doesn't cost
anything!!) So, we have likes of (Pigistani)
Manu Joseph teaching us secularim ! When shall we wake up !!!
Suren Sukhtankar
Troy, Michigan, USA
Jun 29, 2004 12:00 AM
17
I get it. So far I thought Mr.Joseph's (of Pakistan, not Manu Joseph) singular obsession was with India being identified as secular. His actual problem seems to be with the fact that India rejected the glorious "Two Nation" theory - that theory that sprung from the venerable minds of those most noble Muslim thinkers, the pinnacle of Islamic genius.
Of course, now why would that bother Mr.Joseph? Because he wants Kashmir partitioned on communal lines and the Islamic part delivered to Pakistan on a platter.
Now the question for you Mr.Joseph is - have Pakistanis given up the idea that ALL OF JAMMU & KASHMIR can be grabbed from India and are settling for a part of Kashmir?
Obviously Mr.Joseph liberally borrowed from the names of those wise Christians. He is in reality a Islamic fanatic bred to present a deceptive face to those naive outsiders. Is this the latest Pakistani strategy? To invent a "Christian" that propounds the "Two Nation" theory?
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Jun 29, 2004 12:00 AM
16

"What reduces Pakistan's Hindus from 28 per cent to 2 per cent? Muslim tolerance!

What increases India's Muslim population from 8 per cent to 15 per cent? Hindu intolerance! "

sayet the Prophet Joseph of Karachi
Rajendran Kumaran
London, UK
Jun 29, 2004 12:00 AM
15
EVERY HINDU NEEDS TO REPEAT EVERY DAY THIS SIMPLE AND NECESSARY MANTRA:

"MUSLIM TOLERANCE INCREASED THE HINDU POPULATION OF PAKISTAN FROM 28 PER CENT IN 1947 TO 2 PER CENT TODAY.

HINDU INTOLERANCE REDUCED THE MUSLIM POPULATION OF INDIA FROM 8 PER CENT IN 1947 TO 15 PER CENT TODAY."

Just repeat this divine mantra every day, O HINDU!! You will thereby imbibe the sacred Gospel According to Joseph of Karachi.....
Rajendran Kumaran
London, UK
Jun 29, 2004 12:00 AM
14
We poor Hindus have a hell of a lot to learn from Muslims, Joseph would say. If we had been truly tolerant, as Pakistan so obviously is, India's Muslims would nearly all have gone to Pakistan in sheer admiration for how well Islamabad was treating Hindus. There would only have been a 2 per cent Muslim population in India - just like the 2 per cent Hindu population of Pakistan today (down from 28 per cent in 1947).

However, don't let any intolerant Hindu assume Hindus left pakistan in such droved due to Muslim persecution: not at all! They went because they were SO overwhelmed by the sheer tolerance of Muslims that they just HAD to crowd out to India to tell the poor Indians of this grand news. Of course, when Indian Muslims heard the good news about Pakistan - how tolerant it was - they decided to stay put in India in order to teach Hindus how to be tolerant. And just so there would be plenty of Muslim TEACHERS OF SECULAR TOLERANCE in India, these Indian Muslims decided to have a much higher birth-rate than Hindus: thus going up from 8 per cent in 1948 (after Partition) to 15 per cent today. And to help further, about 20 million Bangladeshi Muslims came, nobly though illegally, into India to teach Hindus about tolerance.
Rajendran Kumaran
London, UK
Jun 29, 2004 12:00 AM
13

Joseph, the issue of 28 per cent to 2 per cent will continue to come back as you do not take into account huge amount of forced conversions, few cases of ethnic cleansing and many abductions (of Hindu and Sikh Girls) that that have happened in last 50 years. My sources are various human right reports – please go on the any search engine and verify the facts.

But may be human right reports are biased – but, you surely cannot discount the many bomb blasts in Shia Mosques and sectarian killings. When you cannot tolerate even different sects of Islam, what makes you think that Hindus have had a terrific time – before they were driven out, converted or ethically cleansed. But never mind - what takes the cake is your expression ‘Hindus have a Hindu state in India’ – next time, you repeat this, you may want to consider following facts:

1.Of the 50 + Muslim countries, is there any Muslim country that provides Haj subsidy? The answer is NO, but the ‘secular’ India does! On the other hand, Hindu pilgrims to Amarnath, Sabarimalai & Kailash Mansarovar are taxed.

2. Islamic countries such as Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Malaysia have / had a sizeable Hindu minority - has any of these countries ever provided any special rights to Hindu minorities that Muslims are accorded in ‘secular’ India?

3. Has any Muslim country (having other religious minority) ever appointed a Non-Muslim as its President or Prime Minister?

4. Is there any country where the 80% majority is treated secondary to the 15% minority?

5. Hindu-majority Maharashtra, Bihar, Kerala, Pondicherry, etc. have in the past elected Muslims as CMs; But it is not possible for a Hindu to be a CM of Muslim - majority J&K

7. Hindus make up 80 % population of India. If India is a Hindu state, how come Masjids and Madrassas are thriving? How come Muslims are proclaiming 5 times a day on loudspeakers that there is no God except Allah – that too in a multi religious society such as India?

8. Christian and Muslim schools can teach Bible and Quran in their schools, but Hindus cannot teach Gita or Ramayan or sing Saraswati Vandana in their schools.

9. The Temple funds subject to standard rules and regulations but Mosque and Madrassas are free to spend money the way they like.

10. A Muslim President, A Sikh Prime Minister and a Catholic Christian as a power centre – what more proof do you need of our ‘Hindu state’?



Deepak
Dubai, UAE
Jun 29, 2004 12:00 AM
12
Joseph below is wonderfully informative about the splendid, tolerant, above all, fair-minded ways of what Manu Joseph's tame Hindus of Karachi called those "lovely" people, the Muslims....Thus, Joseph immediately notes that if Hindus raise the demand for Hindu rashtra in INDIA this will revive the "Two Nations Theory"...Meaning, presumably, that Indian Muslims will claim that even the India that was left to hindus in 1947 will have to be re-partitioned to form yet another Muslim state...Marvellous fellows, these: how fair! The Muslim principle is short and sweet, as shown by Joseph. It says smilingly: "What belongs to us Muslims is ours forever - and let no Hindu who values his life so much as raise an eyebrow when Islam is mentioned. What belongs to the Hindus is always negotiable."

Note: the declaration of a Muslim sate in Pakistan never raised any question of the right of pakistani Hindus to have a separate state....No, no, no: THEY are mere Hindus, idol worshippers...
Rajendran Kumaran
London, UK
Jun 29, 2004 12:00 AM
11
I miss it sometimes, not being a Hindu in Pakistan, or not even being able to trace my roots to the land of Indus Valley Civilization. Wonder what life would have been like to be living in Karachi, feeding the cows, exchanging 'friendly' taunts with Muslims about my Gods and their idols, being mistaken for an Indian and not being able to choose my wife from amongst my community... not being able to marry at all.

Wonder why I would have continued to live in land of the pure, being enslaved errr employed, at the farms of Waderas, Jatois and other Sindhi feudals, my kith and kin molested with ‘divine sanction’, my places of worship destroyed to make way for abattoirs, army recreation centres and toilets. Would it hurt to see the 'Shiva Linga', the one I used to cling to in moments of desperation, the one I used to pray to and offer milk and ‘tulsi’, being broken in a hundred pieces, and all the pieces inserted on the nearby mosque steps, so that the 'faithful' can express their distaste for 'kufr'.

Wonder how it would have felt to be derided, mocked and insulted everyday, my childhood chums, and my classmates showing me passages from the textbook which belittle my identity, my religion and denigrate my Gods. How difficult would it be to see the places revered by my parents and loved ones, desecrated by tender hearted police of the ministry for the ‘prevention of vice and promotion of virtue’?

But, I shudder to think that this romanticism would have cost me my name, would have forced me to camouflage myself as Danish and not Dinesh, or worse settle for an intermediate option, substitute Joseph for Janardan.

No Thanks!! I'm better this way, part of a servile existence to anti-national demagogy and threatened by Marxist lampoons and terrorist thugs. At least, I can visit the neighbouring temple whenever I want to, bath in the Ganges, in places where it maintains its pristine clarity, to be able to write this letter in the bastion of communist and anti-Hindu mouthpiece, without the fear of persecution and accusation of blasphemy, to be able to listen to music, and sing to myself...

I'll settle for a boring life of a U.P. bhaiya, I don't want to trade places with Deepak Parwani. You go ahead Manu; hope Joseph will be there to welcome you to the ‘land of the tolerant’, ‘the land of the pure’.
Rahul Malviya
Bangalore, India
Jun 29, 2004 12:00 AM
10
My point is and will always be that Hindus have a Hindu state in India but are averse to asserting it for fear of blowing apart the figment of secularism which was adopted in 1947 to dispose off the two-nation theory and to ensure that it does not raise its head again. This is also why India is hesitant to decide the Jammu and Kashmir issue on religious lines, lest it re-open the two-nation theory and put paid to secularism.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jun 29, 2004 12:00 AM
9
I agree almost completely with Manu Joseph. I believe, if Hindus in Pakistan, a declared Muslim state, are living so well and amid such tolerance, then we Indians have a lot to learn from Pakistan. It should be our model in regard to how India treats the Muslims. Let most Muslims in India go to Pakistan, and the 2 per cent left (the same proportion as Hindus in Pakistan) can be treated with complete affection and tolerance.
If Hindus live so well in Pakistan, why should Muslims and "secularists" fear a Hindu rashtra in India? Or are we saying Muslims are always entitled to their state, but Hinduism must never have a state in India? Given how fair-minded Joseph is, I am sure she would not argue thus.
Rajendran Kumaran
London, UK
Jun 29, 2004 12:00 AM
8
It is interesting to note that almost all the comments come from Indians who live outside India and who have, in all probability, adopted the nationality of the countries that they reside in. It is natural that they will be more loyal especially from their safe havens. They are afraid to see any warts in India lest they are branded unpatriotic.

In an earlier observation, I have already tried to explain the reduction in the non-Muslim population was due to migration to India or to killings at the time of Independence and not due to any progroms or ethnic cleansings on the part of Paistan. Yet this 28 per cent to 2 per cent continues to return.

May I assure all contributors that the small Minority population is safer in Pakistan than India's is in India. Remember Dalits becoming Buddhists to avoid persecution. Recall Dalits being burnt alive in Bihar. Spare a thought for Adivasis who even to this day die of starvation in West Bengal. Reflect, then write.

As for all those "charges" against Indian Muslims, why blame them for taing advantage of the timidity of the Hindu.

My advise to 82 per cent of India's population is Be Brave Proclaim Your Hinduism Every Where. They Only Live Who Dare.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jun 29, 2004 12:00 AM
7
When a community has been reduced to the most tiny fragment of its original self - from 28 per cent to 2 per cent! - it is easy to treat it with patronising, but not angry, contempt. This is the fate of the better-off Hindus of Pakistan. But even so, the accounts in the Pakistani press itself of the cruelties suffered by the Untouchable Hindu majority which lives as serfs on Wadera estates in Sindh are horrific....Just let even ONE of these Pakistani Hindus criticise Islam openly in Pakistan - the way countless Muslims are able to not only criticise but MOCK Hinduism in India without coming to harm....Then we shall see which country is more oppressive of minorities. The real test of a country's religious tolerance is not state secularism, but whether people are able to freely criticise the faith of the majority. By that standard NO Muslim country is even remotely tolerant - not even Turkey. India - barring the likes of Shiv Sena goons in Mumbai - is tolerant, by and large.
Rajendran Kumaran
London, UK
Jun 29, 2004 12:00 AM
6
Mr. Sandeep Verma, why is the worst article you have ever read? Is it because it does not tie up with your version of what life is in Pakistan? I can assure you that the minorities in Pakistan are safer and sounder than their counterparts in India.

Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jun 28, 2004 12:00 AM
5
Outlook has done it again ..well muslims can never be wrong and a country like pakistan can never be wrong.one of the orst article i have ever read. I earlier believed that you are on the payroll of congress but now pakistan can be a bigger contributer. Alok mehta definitely deserves a rajya sabha berth.
Sandeep Verma
Gorakhpur, India
Jun 28, 2004 12:00 AM
4
A very informative article on the lives of Hindu's in Pakistan. It was astounding to know the fact that there are still 2-5 million Hindu's in Pakistan.
-Sanjeev, California
Sanjeev Kasarabada
San Jose, USA
Jun 27, 2004 12:00 AM
3
The article is not misleading. Although I do also find Manu Joseph condescending like all Indian journals and journalists, he speaks from first hand knowledge having been in Pakistan during the cricket series.

Well, Deepak, most Hindus and Sikhs migrated in droves between 1947 and 1952. Some were killed during that horendous exchange in 1947. Examples of migrants who are doing well in India are Lal Krishna Advani and Ram Jetmalani from Sindh, and countless from the Punjab.

Well Hindus, Muslims, Christian, Jews are different because their religious practices make them so.

About the other points raised by you I do not have any first hand knowledge. Hence I will leave them uncomented.

I am afraid, Lalit, that your proposal will open the two-nation theory which India has so carefully and ceaselessly avoided through its figment of being a secular country. At least you are more honest than your Government in that you believe that Hindus and Muslims are two separate nations.

Manu, do keep writing about life in Pakista. But be aware, I will always be there to correct you where you are wrong.
Joseph
Karachi, Pakistan
Jun 27, 2004 12:00 AM
2

This article is terribly misleading – consider the following:

The fact is that Hindus and Sikhs who constituted about 28 % of population of Pakistan in 1947 now constitute less than 2%. Where are these Hindus and Sikhs and who is responsible for this genocidal pattern of ethnic cleansing?

Pakistani minorities are in a volatile and dangerous position, threatened by the highly contentious blasphemy law, which is so open-ended that it puts at risk the core activities of religious minorities. International institutions have repeatedly pointed out that not only is this law discriminatory and repressive, but has also proved to be a pretext for essentially arbitrary charges and harassment. Forget Hindus and Sikhs, even Muslim sects like Ahmadiyas and shias are treated as second class citizens and face persecution as is evident from the random acts of violence against Shias that often take the form of unprovoked attacks.

What about the government approved school text that emphasizes Hindu-Muslim differences and the resultant need for Pakistan - the subject of hate in Pakistani educational material ends up being Hindu and India, reflecting both the perceived sense of insecurity from an "enemy" country, and an attempt to define one's national identity in relation to the "other."

What about the many Hindu temples that have been systematically destroyed (a few of these destroyed temple have been converted into abattoirs)?

What about many cases of Hindu and Sikh girls who are constantly victimized and harassed because of being ‘non – believer’ and are been seen a fair target for conversions?
Deepak
Dubai, UAE
Jun 26, 2004 12:00 AM
1
Just proves a point.

The rich get on well most places. The poor in just a few.

It would be good if there was an exchange of poor Hindus from Pakistan with poor muslims in
India. At least these people would feel more comfortable in their own religious milieu.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
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