I.G. Khan Memorial Lecture
How Deep Shall We Dig?
"Kashmir used to be a business. Now it's a mental asylum." The more I think about that remark, the more apposite a description it seems for all of India. Admittedly, Kashmir and the North East are separate wings that house the more perilous wards in the asylum...

Recently, a young Kashmiri friend was talking to me about life in Kashmir. Of the morass of political venality and opportunism, the callous brutality of the security forces, of the osmotic, inchoate edges of a society saturated in violence, where militants, police, intelligence officers, government servants, businessmen and even journalists encounter each other, and gradually, over time, become each other. He spoke of having to live with the endless killing, the mounting `disappearances', the whispering, the fear, the unresolved rumours, the insane disconnection between what is actually happening, what Kashmiris know is happening and what the rest of us are told is happening in Kashmir. He said, "Kashmir used to be a business. Now it's a mental asylum."

 
 
The schism between knowledge and information, between what we know and what we're told, between what is unknown and what is asserted, between what is concealed and what is revealed, between fact and conjecture, between the `real' world and the virtual world, has become a place of endless speculation and potential insanity.
 
 
The more I think about that remark, the more apposite a description it seems for all of India. Admittedly, Kashmir and the North East are separate wings that house the more perilous wards in the asylum. But in the heartland too, the schism between knowledge and information, between what we know and what we're told, between what is unknown and what is asserted, between what is concealed and what is revealed, between fact and conjecture, between the `real' world and the virtual world, has become a place of endless speculation and potential insanity. It's a poisonous brew which is stirred and simmered and put to the most ugly, destructive, political purpose.

Each time there is a so-called `terrorist strike', the Government rushes in, eager to assign culpability with little or no investigation. The burning of the Sabarmati Express in Godhra, the December 13th attack on the Parliament building, or the massacre of Sikhs by so called `terrorists' in Chittisinghpura are only a few, high profile examples. In each of these cases, the evidence that eventually surfaced raised very disturbing questions and so was immediately put into cold storage. Take the case of Godhra: as soon as it happened the Home Minister announced it was an ISI plot. The VHP says it was the work of a Muslim mob throwing petrol bombs. Serious questions remain unanswered. There is endless conjecture. Everybody believes what they want to believe, but the incident is used to cynically and systematically whip up communal frenzy.

The U.S. Government used the lies and disinformation generated around the September 11th attacks to invade not just one country, but two — and heaven knows what else is in store.

 
 
The U.S. Government used the lies and disinformation generated around the September 11th attacks to invade not just one country, but two — and heaven knows what else is in store. The Indian Government uses the same strategy not with other countries, but against its own people.
 
 
The Indian Government uses the same strategy not with other countries, but against its own people.

Over the last decade, the number of people who have been killed by the police and security forces runs into the tens of thousands. Recently several Bombay policemen spoke openly to the press about how many `gangsters' they had eliminated on `orders'. Andhra Pradesh chalks up an average of about 200 `extremists' in `encounter' deaths a year. In Kashmir in a situation that almost amounts to war, an estimated 80,000 people have been killed since 1989. Thousands have simply `disappeared'. According to the records of the Association of Parents of Disappeared People (APDP) in Kashmir more than 3,000 people have been killed in 2003, of whom 463 were soldiers. Since the Mufti Mohammed Sayeed Government came to power in October 2002 on the promise of bringing a `healing touch', the APDP says there have been 54 custodial deaths. But in this age of hyper-nationalism, as long as the people who are killed are labelled gangsters, terrorists, insurgents or extremists, their killers can strut around as crusaders in the national interest, and are answerable to no one.

The Indian state's proclivity to harass and terrorise people has been institutionalised by the enactment of the Prevention of Terrorism Act (POTA). It has been promulgated in 10 States. A cursory reading of POTA will tell you that it is draconian and ubiquitous. It's a versatile, hold-all law that could apply to anyone — from an Al-Qaeda operative caught with a cache of explosives to an Adivasi playing his flute under a neem tree, to you or me. The genius of POTA is that it can be anything the Government wants it to be. We live on the sufferance of those who govern us. In Tamil Nadu it has been used to stifle criticism of the State Government. In Jharkhand 3,200 people, mostly poor Adivasis accused of being Maoists, have been named in FIRs under POTA. In eastern Uttar Pradesh the Act is used to clamp down on those who dare to protest about the alienation of their land and livelihood rights. In Gujarat and Mumbai it is used almost exclusively against Muslims. In Gujarat after the 2002 state-assisted pogrom in which an estimated 2000 Muslims were killed and 150,000 driven from their homes, 287 people have been accused under POTA. Of these, 286 are Muslim and one is a Sikh! POTA allows confessions extracted in police custody to be admitted as judicial evidence. In effect, under the POTA regime, police torture tends to replace police investigation. It's quicker, cheaper and ensures results. Talk of cutting back on public spending.

 
 
The genius of POTA is that it can be anything the Government wants it to be. We live on the sufferance of those who govern us.
 
 
Last month I was a member of a peoples' tribunal on POTA. Over a period of two days we listened to harrowing testimonies of what goes on in our wonderful democracy. Let me assure you that in our police stations it's everything: from people being forced to drink urine, to being stripped, humiliated, given electric shocks, burned with cigarette butts, having iron rods put up their anuses to being beaten and kicked to death.

POTA courts are not open to public scrutiny. POTA inverts the accepted dictum of criminal law — that a person is innocent until proven guilty. Under POTA you cannot get bail unless you can prove you are innocent — of a crime that you have not been formally charged with. Technically, we are a nation waiting to be accused. It would be naïve to imagine that POTA is being `misused'. On the contrary. It is being used for precisely the reasons it was enacted. Of course if the recommendations of the Malimath Committee are implemented, POTA will soon become redundant. The Malimath Committee recommends that in certain respects normal criminal law be brought in line with the provisions of POTA. There'll be no more criminals then. Only terrorists. It's kind of neat.

Today in Jammu and Kashmir and many North Eastern States the Armed Forces Special Powers Act allows not just officers but even Junior Commissioned Officers and Non-Commissioned Officers of the army to use force on (and even kill) any person on suspicion of disturbing public order or carrying a weapon. On suspicion of! Nobody who lives in India can harbour any illusions about what that leads to. The documentation of instances of torture, disappearances, custodial deaths, rape and gang-rape (by security forces) is enough to make your blood run cold. The fact that despite all this India retains its reputation as a legitimate democracy in the international community and amongst its own middle class is a triumph.

 
 
Under POTA you cannot get bail unless you can prove you are innocent — of a crime that you have not been formally charged with. Technically, we are a nation waiting to be accused.
 
 
The Armed Forces Special Powers Act is a harsher version of the Ordinance that Lord Linlithgow passed in 1942 to handle the Quit India Movement. In 1958 it was clamped on parts of Manipur which were declared `disturbed areas'. In 1965 the whole of Mizoram, then still part of Assam, was declared `disturbed'. In 1972 the Act was extended to Tripura. By 1980 the whole of Manipur had been declared `disturbed'. What more evidence does anybody need to realise that repressive measures are counter-productive and only exacerbate the problem?

Juxtaposed against this unseemly eagerness to repress and eliminate people, is the Indian state's barely hidden reluctance to investigate and bring to trial, cases in which there is plenty of evidence: the massacre of 3000 Sikhs in Delhi in 1984, the massacre of Muslims in Bombay in 1993 and in Gujarat in 2002 (not one conviction to date!); the murder a few years ago of Chandrashekhar, former president of the JNU students union; the murder 12 years ago of Shankar Guha Nyogi of the Chhattisgarh Mukti Morcha are just a few examples. Eyewitness accounts and masses of incriminating evidence are not enough when all of the state machinery is stacked against you.

Meanwhile, economists cheering from the pages of corporate newspapers inform us that the GDP growth rate is phenomenal, unprecedented. Shops are overflowing with consumer goods. Government storehouses are overflowing with foodgrain. Outside this circle of light, farmers steeped in debt are committing suicide in their hundreds. Reports of starvation and malnutrition come in from across the country. Yet the Government allowed 63 million tonnes of grain to rot in its granaries. 12 million tonnes were exported and sold at a subsidised price the Indian Government was not willing to offer the Indian poor. Utsa Patnaik, the well known agricultural economist, has calculated foodgrain availability and foodgrain absorption in India for nearly a century, based on official statistics. She calculates that in the period between the early 1990s and 2001, foodgrain absorption has dropped to levels lower than during the World War-II years, including during the Bengal Famine in which 3 million people died of starvation. As we know from the work of Professor Amartya Sen, democracies don't take kindly to starvation deaths. They attract too much adverse publicity from the `free press'.

 
 
Meanwhile, economists cheering from the pages of corporate newspapers inform us that the GDP growth rate is phenomenal, unprecedented. Shops are overflowing with consumer goods. Government storehouses are overflowing with foodgrain.
 
 
So dangerous levels of malnutrition and permanent hunger are the preferred model these days. 47 per cent of India's children below three suffer from malnutrition, 46 per cent are stunted. Utsa Patnaik's study reveals that about 40 per cent of the rural population in India has the same foodgrain absorption level as Sub-Saharan Africa. Today, an average rural family eats about 100 kg less food in a year than it did in the early 1990s. The last five years have seen the most violent increase in rural-urban income inequalities since independence.

But in urban India, wherever you go, shops, restaurants, railway stations, airports, gymnasiums, hospitals, you have TV monitors in which election promises have already come true. India's Shining, Feeling Good. You only have to close your ears to the sickening crunch of the policeman's boot on someone's ribs, you only have to raise your eyes from the squalor, the slums, the ragged broken people on the streets and seek a friendly TV monitor and you will be in that other beautiful world. The singingdancing world of Bollywood's permanent pelvic thrusts, of permanently privileged, permanently happy Indians waving the tri-colour and Feeling Good. It's becoming harder and harder to tell which one's the real world and which one's virtual. Laws like POTA are like buttons on a TV. You can use it to switch off the poor, the troublesome, the unwanted.

 
 
Outside this circle of light, farmers steeped in debt are committing suicide in their hundreds. Reports of starvation and malnutrition come in from across the country. Yet the Government allowed 63 million tonnes of grain to rot in its granaries.
 
 
There is a new kind of secessionist movement taking place in India. Shall we call it New Secessionism? It's an inversion of Old Secessionism. It's when people who are actually part of a whole different economy, a whole different country, a whole different planet, pretend they're part of this one. It is the kind of secession in which a relatively small section of people become immensely wealthy by appropriating everything — land, rivers, water, freedom, security, dignity, fundamental rights including the right to protest — from a large group of people.It's a vertical secession, not a horizontal, territorial one. It's the real Structural Adjustment — the kind that separates India Shining from India. India Pvt. Ltd. from India the Public Enterprise.

It's the kind of secession in which public infrastructure, productive public assets — water, electricity, transport, telecommunications, health services, education, natural resources — assets that the Indian state is supposed to hold in trust for the people it represents, assets that have been built and maintained with public money over decades — are sold by the state to private corporations. In India 70 per cent of the population — 700 million people — live in rural areas. Their livelihoods depend on access to natural resources. To snatch these away and sell them as stock to private companies is beginning to result in dispossession and impoverishment on a barbaric scale.

 
 
In the period between the early 1990s and 2001, foodgrain absorption has dropped to levels lower than during the Bengal Famine ... As we know from the work of Professor Amartya Sen, democracies don't take kindly to starvation deaths. They attract too much adverse publicity from the `free press'.
 
 
India Pvt. Ltd. is on its way to being owned by a few corporations and of course major multinationals. The CEOs of these companies will control this country, its infrastructure and its resources, its media and its journalists, but will owe nothing to its people. They are completely unaccountable — legally, socially, morally, politically. Those who say that in India a few of these CEOs are more powerful than the Prime Minister know exactly what they're talking about.

Quite apart from the economic implications of all this, even if it were all that it is cracked up to be (which it isn't) — miraculous, efficient, amazing, etc. — is the politics of it acceptable to us? If the Indian state chooses to mortgage its responsibilities to a handful of corporations, does it mean that this theatre of electoral democracy that is unfolding around us right now in all its shrillness is entirely meaningless? Or does it still have a role to play?

The Free Market (which is actually far from free) needs the state and needs it badly. As the disparity between the rich and the poor grows, in poor countries states have their work cut out for them. Corporations on the prowl for `sweetheart deals' that yield enormous profits cannot push through those deals and administer those projects in developing countries without the active connivance of the state machinery.

 

Today Corporate Globalisation needs an international confederation of loyal, corrupt, preferably authoritarian governments in poorer countries, to push through unpopular reforms and quell the mutinies. It's called `Creating a Good Investment Climate.'

When we vote in these elections we will be voting to choose which political party we would like to invest the coercive, repressive powers of the state in.

Right now in India we have to negotiate the dangerous cross-currents of neo-liberal capitalism and communal neo-fascism. While the word capitalism hasn't completely lost its sheen yet, using the word fascism often causes offence. So we must ask ourselves, are we using the word loosely? Are we exaggerating our situation, does what we are experiencing on a daily basis qualify as fascism?

 
 
There is a new kind of secessionist movement taking place in India. Shall we call it New Secessionism? It's an inversion of Old Secessionism. It's when people who are actually part of a whole different economy, a whole different country, a whole different planet pretend they're part of this one.
 
 
When a government more or less openly supports a pogrom against members of a minority community in which up to 2,000 people are brutally killed, is it fascism? When women of that community are publicly raped and burned alive, is it fascism? When authorities see to it that nobody is punished for these crimes, is it fascism? When a 150,000 people are driven from their homes, ghettoised and economically and socially boycotted, is it fascism? When the cultural guild that runs hate camps across the country commands the respect and admiration of the Prime Minister, the Home Minister, the Law Minister, the Disinvestment Minister, is it fascism? When painters, writers, scholars and filmmakers who protest are abused, threatened and have their work burned, banned and destroyed, is it fascism? When a government issues an edict requiring the arbitrary alteration of school history textbooks, is it fascism? When mobs attack and burn archives of ancient historical documents, when every minor politician masquerades as a professional medieval historian and archaeologist, when painstaking scholarship is rubbished using baseless populist assertion, is it fascism? When murder, rape, arson and mob justice are condoned by the party in power and its stable of stock intellectuals as an appropriate response to a real or perceived historical wrong committed centuries ago, is it fascism? When the middle-class and the well-heeled pause a moment, tut-tut and then go on with their lives, is it fascism? When the Prime Minister who presides over all of this is hailed as a statesman and visionary, are we not laying the foundations for full-blown fascism?

That the history of oppressed and vanquished people remains for the large part unchronicled is a truism that does not apply only to Savarna Hindus. If the politics of avenging historical wrong is our chosen path, then surely the Dalits and Adivasis of India have the right to murder, arson and wanton destruction?

In Russia they say the past is unpredictable.In India, from our recent experience with school history textbooks, we know how true that is. Now all `pseudo-secularists' have been reduced to hoping that archaeologists digging under the Babri Masjid wouldn't find the ruins of a Ram temple. But even if it were true that there is a Hindu temple under every mosque in India, what was under the temple? Perhaps another Hindu temple to another god. Perhaps a Buddhist stupa. Most likely an Adivasi shrine. History didn't begin with Savarna Hinduism, did it? How deep shall we dig? How much should we overturn? And why is it that while Muslims who are socially, culturally and economically an unalienable part of India are called outsiders and invaders and are cruelly targeted, the Government is busy signing corporate deals and contracts for Development Aid with a government that colonised us for centuries? Between 1876 and 1892, during the great famines, millions of Indians died of starvation while the British Government continued to export food and raw materials to England. Historical records put the figure between 12 million and 29 million people. That should figure somewhere in the politics of revenge, should it not? Or is vengeance only fun when its victims are vulnerable and easy to target?

Successful fascism takes hard work. And so does Creating a Good Investment Climate.

 
 
The CEOs ... are completely unaccountable — legally, socially, morally, politically. Those who say that in India a few of these CEOs are more powerful than the Prime Minister know exactly what they're talking about.
 
 
It's interesting that just around the time Manmohan Singh, the then Finance Minister, was preparing India's markets for neo-liberalism, L.K. Advani was making his first Rath Yatra, fuelling communal passion and preparing us for neo-fascism. In December 1992 rampaging mobs destroyed the Babri Masjid. In 1993, the Congress Government of Maharashtra signed a power purchase agreement with Enron. It was the first private power project in India. The Enron contract, disastrous as it has turned out, kick-started the era of Privatisation in India. Now, as the Congress whines from the side-lines, the BJP has wrested the baton from its hands. The Government is conducting an extraordinary dual orchestra. While one arm is busy selling the nation's assets off in chunks, the other, to divert attention, is arranging a baying, howling, deranged chorus of cultural nationalism. The inexorable ruthlessness of one process feeds directly into the insanity of the other.

Economically too, the dual orchestra is a viable model. Part of the enormous profits generated by the process of indiscriminate privatisation (and the accruals of `India Shining') helps to finance Hindutva's vast army — the RSS, the VHP, the Bajrang Dal and the myriad other charities and trusts which run schools, hospitals and social services.Between them they have tens of thousands of shakhas across the country. The hatred they preach, combined with the unmanageable frustration generated by the relentless impoverishment and dispossession of the Corporate Globalisation project, fuels the violence of poor on poor — the perfect smokescreen to keep the structures of power intact and unchallenged.

However, directing peoples' frustrations into violence is not always enough. In order to `Create a Good Investment Climate' the state often needs to intervene directly.

 
 
While the word capitalism hasn't completely lost its sheen yet, using the word fascism often causes offence. So we must ask ourselves, are we using the word loosely? Are we exaggerating our situation, does what we are experiencing on a daily basis qualify as fascism?
 
 
In recent years the police has repeatedly opened fire on unarmed people, mostly Adivasis at peaceful demonstrations. In Nagarnar, Jharkhand; in Mehndi Kheda, Madhya Pradesh; in Umergaon, Gujarat; in Rayagara and Chilika, Orissa; in Muthanga, Kerala. People have been killed.

In almost every instance, those who have been fired upon are immediately called militants (PWG, MCC, ISI, LTTE). The repression goes on and on — Jambudweep, Kashipur, Maikanj.

When victims refuse to be victims, they are called terrorists and are dealt with as such. POTA is the broad-spectrum antibiotic for the disease of dissent. This year 181 countries voted in the U.N. for increased protection of human rights in the era of the War on Terror. Even the U.S. voted in favour of it. India abstained. The stage is being set for a full scale assault on human rights.

So how can ordinary people counter the assault of an increasingly violent state?

 
 
In Russia they say the past is unpredictable.In India, from our recent experience with school history textbooks, we know how true that is.
 
 
The space for non-violent civil disobedience has atrophied. After struggling for several years, several non-violent peoples' resistance movements have come up against a wall and feel quite rightly, they have to now change direction. Views about what that direction should be are deeply polarised. There are some who believe that an armed struggle is the only avenue left. Others increasingly are beginning to feel they must participate in electoral politics — enter the system, negotiate from within. (Similar is it not, to the choices people faced in Kashmir?) The thing to remember is that while their methods differ radically, both sides share the belief that (to put it crudely) — Enough is Enough. Ya Basta.

There is no debate taking place in India that is more crucial than this one. Its outcome will, for better or for worse, change the quality of life in this country. For everyone. Rich, poor, rural, urban.

 
 
Now all `pseudo-secularists' have been reduced to hoping that archaeologists digging under the Babri Masjid wouldn't find the ruins of a Ram temple.
 
 
Armed struggle provokes a massive escalation of violence from the state.We have seen the morass it has led to in Kashmir and across the North East.

So then, should we do what our Prime Minister suggests we do? Renounce dissent and enter the fray of electoral politics? Join the roadshow? Participate in the shrill exchange of meaningless insults which serve only to hide what is otherwise an almost absolute consensus? Let's not forget that on every major issue — nuclear bombs, big dams, the Babri Masjid controversy, and privatisation — the Congress sowed the seeds and the BJP swept in to reap the hideous harvest.

This does not mean that the Parliament is of no consequence and elections should be ignored. Of course there is a difference between an overtly communal party with fascist leanings and an opportunistically communal party. Of course there is a difference between a politics that openly, proudly preaches hatred and a politics that slyly pits people against each other.

 
 
The hatred they preach, combined with the unmanageable frustration generated by the relentless impoverishment and dispossession of the Corporate Globalisation project, fuels the violence of poor on poor...
 
 
And of course we know that the legacy of one has led us to the horror of the other. Between them they have eroded any real choice that parliamentary democracy is supposed to provide. The frenzy, the fair-ground atmosphere created around elections takes centre-stage in the media because everybody is secure in the knowledge that regardless of who wins, the status quo will essentially remain unchallenged. (After the impassioned speeches in Parliament, repealing POTA doesn't seem to be a priority in any party's election campaign. They all know they need it, in one form or another.)

Whatever they say during elections or when they're in the Opposition, no government at the State or Centre, no political party right/left/centre/sideways has managed to stay the hand of neo-liberalism. There will be no radical change from "within".

Personally, I don't believe that entering the electoral fray is a path to alternative politics. Not because of that middle-class squeamishness — `politics is dirty' or `all politicians are corrupt', but because I believe that strategically battles must be waged from positions of strength, not weakness.

 
 
When victims refuse to be victims, they are called terrorists and are dealt with as such. POTA is the broad-spectrum antibiotic for the disease of dissent.
 
 
The targets of the dual assault of communal fascism and neo-liberalism are the poor and the minority communities (who, as time goes by are gradually being impoverished. ) As neo-liberalism drives its wedge between the rich and the poor, between India Shining and India, it becomes increasingly absurd for any mainstream political party to pretend to represent the interests of both the rich and the poor, because the interests of one can only be represented at the cost of the other.My "interests" as a wealthy Indian (were I to pursue them) would hardly coincide with the interests of a poor farmer in Andhra Pradesh.

A political party that represents the poor will be a poor party. A party with very meagre funds. Today it isn't possible to fight an election without funds. Putting a couple of well known social activists into Parliament is interesting, but not really politically meaningful. Not a process worth channelising all our energies into. Individual charisma, personality politics, cannot effect radical change.

However, being poor is not the same as being weak. The strength of the poor is not indoors in office buildings and courtrooms. It's outdoors, in the fields, the mountains, the river valleys, the city streets and university campuses of this country. That's where negotiations must be held. That's where the battle must be waged.

 
 
So then, should we do what our Prime Minister suggests we do? Renounce dissent and enter the fray of electoral politics? Join the roadshow?
 
 
Right now those spaces have been ceded to the Hindu Right. Whatever anyone might think of their politics, it cannot be denied that they're out there, working extremely hard. As the state abrogates its responsibilities and withdraws funds from health, education and essential public services, the foot soldiers of the Sangh Parivar have moved in. Alongside their tens of thousands of shakhas disseminating deadly propaganda, they run schools, hospitals, clinics, ambulance services, disaster management cells. They understand powerlessness. They also understand that people, and particularly powerless people, have needs and desires that are not only practical humdrum day to day needs, but emotional, spiritual, recreational. They have fashioned a hideous crucible into which the anger, the frustration, the indignity of daily life, and dreams of a different future can be decanted and directed to deadly purpose. Meanwhile the traditional, mainstream Left still dreams of `seizing power', but remains strangely unbending, unwilling to address the times. It has laid siege to itself and retreated into an inaccessible intellectual space, where ancient arguments are proffered in an archaic language that few can understand.

The only ones who present some semblance of a challenge to the onslaught of the Sangh Parivar are the grassroots resistance movements scattered across the country, fighting the dispossession and violation of fundamental rights caused by our current model of "Development".

 

 
 
Personally, I don't believe that entering the electoral fray is a path to alternative politics. Not because of that middle-class squeamishness — `politics is dirty' or `all politicians are corrupt', but because I believe that strategically battles must be waged from positions of strength, not weakness.
 
 
Most of these movements are isolated and (despite the relentless accusation that they are "foreign funded foreign agents") they work with almost no money and no resources at all.They're magnificent fire-fighters, they have their backs to the wall. But they do have their ears to the ground. They are in touch with grim reality. If they got together, if they were supported and strengthened, they could grow into a force to reckon with. Their battle, when it is fought, will have to be an idealistic one — not a rigidly ideological one.

At a time when opportunism is everything, when hope seems lost, when everything boils down to a cynical business deal, we must find the courage to dream. To reclaim romance. The romance of believing in justice, in freedom and in dignity. For everybody. We have to make common cause, and to do this we need to understand how this big old machine works — who it works for and who it works against. Who pays, who profits.

 
 
Being poor is not the same as being weak. The strength of the poor is not indoors in office buildings and courtrooms. It's outdoors, in the fields, the mountains, the river valleys, the city streets and university campuses of this country. That's where negotiations must be held. That's where the battle must be waged.
 
 
Many non-violent resistance movements fighting isolated, single-issue battles across the country have realised that their kind of special interest politics which had its time and place, is no longer enough. That they feel cornered and ineffectual is not good enough reason to abandon non-violent resistance as a strategy. It is however, good enough reason to do some serious introspection. We need vision. We need to make sure that those of us who say we want to reclaim democracy are egalitarian and democratic in our own methods of functioning. If our struggle is to be an idealistic one, we cannot really make caveats for the internal injustices that we perpetrate on one another, on women, on children. For example, those fighting communalism cannot turn a blind eye to economic injustices. Those fighting dams or development projects cannot elide issues of communalism or caste politics in their spheres of influence — even at the cost of short-term success in their immediate campaign. If opportunism and expediency come at the cost of our beliefs, then there is nothing to separate us from mainstream politicians. If it is justice that we want, it must be justice and equal rights for all — not only for special interest groups with special interest prejudices. That is non-negotiable.

We have allowed non-violent resistance to atrophy into feel-good political theatre, which at its most successful is a photo opportunity for the media, and at its least successful, simply ignored.

We need to look up and urgently discuss strategies of resistance, wage real battles and inflict real damage. We must remember that the Dandi March was not just fine political theatre. It was a strike at the economic underpinning of the British Empire.

We need to re-define the meaning of politics. The `Ngo'isation of civil society initiatives is taking us in exactly the opposite direction. It's de-politicising us. Making us dependant on aid and hand-outs. We need to re-imagine the meaning of civil disobedience.

Perhaps we need an elected shadow parliament outside the Lok Sabha, without whose support and affirmation Parliament cannot easily function. A shadow parliament that keeps up an underground drumbeat, that shares intelligence and information (all of which is increasingly unavailable in the mainstream media). Fearlessly, but non-violently we must disable the working parts of this machine that is consuming us.

We're running out of time. Even as we speak the circle of violence is closing in. Either way, change will come. It could be bloody, or it could be beautiful. It depends on us.


© Arundhati Roy

(The above is based on the first I.G. Khan Memorial Lecture delivered at Aligarh Muslim University on April 6, 2004. Text courtesy, Znet)

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HAVE YOUR SAY
Jun 29, 2004 12:00 AM
79
I don't know too much about the IMF, so I did some searches on google. It's interesting how they give themselves away in little freudian slips, like this one:


Last winter President Clinton and the International Monetary Fund shifted into overdrive in their effort to save the economies of Indonesia, the Philippines, South Korea, and Thailand--or, to be more accurate, to save the pocketbooks of international investors who could face a tide of defaults if these markets were not shored up. But that must be the last time that the IMF acts in this capacity.


By Shultz, Simon and Wriston
From http://www.imfsite.org/abolish/needsshultz.ht ml



Here's a more "mainstream" IMF speech by an IMF lady who's written a lot on India's economy.

http://www.imf.org/external/np/speech es/2004/062304.htm


The IMF at 60: Equipped for Today's Challenges?
Address to the American Academy
By Anne O. Krueger
First Deputy Managing Director
International Monetary Fund
Berlin, June 23, 2004


those delegates agreed on a new international economic order that would both prevent a repetition of the economic unilateralism (?!) of the 1930s,
...

Some economies have been transformed in the post-war period. We're all familiar with the rapid growth of China as a force in the global economy. But look, too, at Korea: its per capita income in real terms rose almost sevenfold between 1962 and 1992. Even India, slow at first to engage with the world economy, has recently enjoyed very good economic performance: in the 1990s, following the first wave of economic reforms, it averaged GDP growth of about 6 percent a year, making it one of the most rapidly-growing of all developing economies.


Here's a speech by a japanese ambassador which is a bit more truthful about the causes of the asian-tiger boom and bust phenomenon.


[believes] ... that "abrupt, large-scale capital movements (were) a major cause of the recent currency crisis." International capital movements, especially short-term ones, should not be left totally unregulated. They should be monitored more closely, not only in recipient countries but also on the creditors side.

Some international mechanism has to be devised to monitor activities of highly leveraged institutions. These include hedge funds, which could have very disturbing effects on international financial markets, especially on emerging economies. Liberalization of capital accounts should be pursued more cautiously, to make sure that effective oversight mechanisms by the authority of recipient countries are in order.


By H.E. Hiroshi Ota, 1999
From http://embjp-th.org/en/greeting/stanford.htm
Arul Francis
Clayton, California
Jun 26, 2004 12:00 AM
78

V. Seshadri from Chennai says:

<<<<<<<<<<<<
This lady is the Devil incarnate, a krypto-christian hiding behind a hindu-like name.
>>>>>>>>>>>>


Oh my my my! What on earth is a "krypto-christian"? Well, at least she gets "lady", even if it's a "Devil incarnate" lady. Speaking of the devil, here's AllsWell:





- Why, sir, if I cannot serve you, I can serve as
great a prince as you are

- Who's that? a Frenchman?

- Faith, sir, a' has an English name; but his fisnomy
is more hotter in France than there.

What prince is that?

- The black prince, sir; alias, the prince of
darkness; alias, the devil.




And V. Seshadri continues:
<<<<<<<<<<<<
Ms. Roy is actually calling for a parallel parliament and, perhaps, government, supported by forces like PWG [prophets’ war group], MAO [Moslems all over], Naxalites [ nabhi’s action elites] etc all coordinated by the ISI [international sword of islam] and funded by the Rome-Riyadh-London axis of vanca-jaalaka [evanjelic] conversionist Christians, jehaadhi Moslems and shylockian jews of the East India Company, for creating anarchy socially
>>>>>>>>>>>>

I didn't know there was a Rome-Riyadh-London axis! Where do they get their clothes - on Bond Street or at Gucci's? Who on earth are the "shylockian jews of the East India Company"? Hey, I want to be part of this "vanca-jaalaka conversionist Christian, jehaadhi Moslems and Shylockian jews" party, wherever its happening. And we need some Vadagalia and Thengalai Tamil Iyengars (please grace us with your presence on inauguration night MsorMr Seshadri!) in it as well, to make it truly happening!

signed,
Arul Francis
[a krypto christian not hiding behind a hindu name

Senior Member of the Mambalam/Mylapore/MenloPark axis of pseudo-secularists, lapsed Catholics etc. etc.]

ps: and you guys complain that Roy is delusional!
Arul Francis
Clayton, California
Jun 26, 2004 12:00 AM
77
Ravi from Chennai says:

I have spent a lot of time in rural India, among the very adivasis you talk about.   In most instances, they live their lives peacefully, collecting their firewood, eating their thick makkai rotis and spicy, oily battas (mmmm) and far removed from the realities that urban middle class Indians (Hindus included) have to put up with.   Bad air, bad water, poor sanitation, sweaty armpits in a bus etc., which these adivasis are fortunate to not experience.


Ravi, this spicy food and a closeness to nature is not the only thing that adivasis have to experience as I'm sure you know. I spend time regularly in a village in the Mayavaram district with my teacher who is now 90. I asked about him the lives of dalits as he has observed throughout his life. He told me that he has seen them throughout his life being mistreated very badly: they couldn't wear clothes, no dhoti, no lungi, no shirt, not when it was cold, not when it was raining, no chappals when it was blistering hot. They couldn't get on the train, couldn't get on a bus and had to only walk. They were often beaten very badly. This is from someone who had lived for a long time in that village. They couldn't draw water from the village well, not even in times of terrible drought. I am sure there were deaths. Just a few years ago there was a big incident in villages outside Kanchipuram where dalits were attacked and many killed when they tried to get water from somewhere. Sweaty armpits in a bus is very mild compared to being attacked when you try to get water.
Arul Francis
Clayton, California
May 13, 2004 12:00 AM
76
Ms.Roy, I must say, excellent language! But perhaps a bit too much of the socialist-utopian ideology that the world has tried out before (India for one) - and it didnt work - and will never work, in my opinion. Human beings are selfish - this is something inherently biological - self interest comes first. However altruistic some actions may seem, if you dig deep enough you will find either a direct or indirect selfish motive. You cant expect to supress the freedom of economic choice and expect to progress into a society without hungry people, with roofs over their heads. Whether we like it or not, the capitalistic system is the best choice we have, to progress even close to the kind of society you envisage. But, then again, whether capitalism or socialist-utopianism will create happy people, is a question that not even you can answer for sure I suspect. There is a broader question of "life, universe and everything" (DA), which yet remains to be fulfillingly answered.

And you were a bit too anti-everything as well, which is more dangerous than the conditions you portray. You actually make people unhappy, when they were not so, by nagging them into believing they are being exploited. I have spent a lot of time in rural India, among the very adivasis you talk about. In most instances, they live their lives peacefully, collecting their firewood, eating their thick makkai rotis and spicy, oily battas (mmmm) and far removed from the realities that urban middle class Indians (Hindus included) have to put up with. Bad air, bad water, poor sanitation, sweaty armpits in a bus etc., which these adivasis are fortunate to not experience. So please dont go about convincing them that they have enemies, when there are none in their minds. It will only make them unhappy and create problems for the rest of the society.

And if you find it difficult to take your mind off these issues, may I suggest you try yoga early in the morning or PG Wodehose before you go to bed?
Ravi
Madras, India
May 13, 2004 12:00 AM
75
well said ravi.. i agree...totalitarianism has failed...but then it reaches question of philosophy. but at the same time unhindered capitalism can be dangerous in a poor nation like india. before making it totally free playing game..a base should be build. Alas! there is no leader in india, who thinks in big picture terms. it was saddening to see vajpayee out, but no sympathies. my analysis: majority of indian voter are poor and see things differently. there only hope against the system is to replace whoever is in power. that is why there is always anti incumbency vote. the bjp had a golden chance this time to implement their strategies for social reform for all segments, but instead they did nothing, and took credit of what indians achieved after liberalization. and harped on issues common voters dont care about...islamization of world, sonia is white, biotech ...this and that(not to say that these issues are not important) but it looks good on a government who would have taken some tough stance on issues like law, order, farmer suicides, population control etc... largely it was due to corruptness of ideas of mahajan and modis and likes. but whatever, i think this was real chance for india to come out of ghetto mentality and the BJP let indians down badly! this shows, what this article is talkin about is reality, opression by system(state). it also shows that what miniscule % urban upper middle class is in india. any way for the future, things are not going to change. india runs on its own, like a long overloaded passanger train..though slow and in bad condition, it some how runs. my prediction is that for some more years, they'll play ping pong with BJP led alliances and congress led alliances....unless sonia turns out to be a genius administrator(unlikely).
but what i am surprised is that media totally failed to guage the mood. my only source was websites of IE, outlook, hindu etc. and they totally failed to guage. surprising..huh! or were they buried deep in their prejudice and own world. well what else, i dont wanna delude my self, hoping congress will do any sweeping change either, so ill just sip my tea and watch the great indian tamasha. feelin helpless..so to console myself, donate something to a charity! y don't you all try guys...CRY website or something.
nits
nashville, US
May 12, 2004 12:00 AM
74
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Venkateswara Arava
NY, USA
May 12, 2004 12:00 AM
73
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Venkateswara Arava
NY, USA
May 12, 2004 12:00 AM
72
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ARAVA
Venkateswara Arava
NY, USA
May 11, 2004 12:00 AM
71
A serious mental case in the Outlook’s pseudo secular asylum:
Let us read between the lines, honestly try to absorb the content of the article, analyze it rationally without any prejudice, and suddenly one realizes that the author of the article suffers from “delusion of grandeur” with an irrational fear of Hindu bogey men.
Madam Arundhati Roy has made a comfortable career and living out of dwelling only on her conceited idea that all Indians are poor, ignorant, and illiterate slobs. She believes that all the Hindus are fascist savages who lack simple understanding of the basic human decency, fairness, and compassion. To her these irresponsible poor Indian savages are not fit enough to govern or play with thermo nuclear bombs. This pathetic, conceited and pretentious intellectual thinks that her way or no way is the right way, and her mission in life is to create her version of pseudo secular Shangri-La in India.
Now you know why Madam Roy won the Booker Price in the west. She wrote the stereotype version of Indian past, which was predictably an instant hit with our past gora masters. She wrote what the people in the west always wanted to hear that the caste ridden Indians still cannot manage without the colonial masters. She has made a point of never writing anything good or positive about India or Indians. Her version of India is hellhole, where nobody is safe except the holy cows during the continuous communal riots. The instant the riots end the Indians batter or burn their women for entertainment or charm cobras or watch cobras and mongooses fight to death. When the Indians get fed up and bored with the communal riots or Bollywood movies, they start a full fledge genocide in Kashmir and Gujarat! ( Note: Good content for Booker price II ).
Unfortunately, our self-appointed intellect pseudo secular half-wits, who also suffer from massive delusion of grandeur, have put a lot of snooty and ignorant people like Madam Roy on high pedestals. These Indian cynics need swift kick on their rear ends to wake them up from their version of Indian nightmare to face the reality of dynamic Indian scenario. While the whole world recognizes India as an important emerging industrial and regional power, we still have people like Madam Roy who still prefer to make a living out of wallowing in the putrid sewer to survive.
I was genuinely amused, while perusing through eleven pages of utter rubbish, which seems to be written by a professional village idiot who is surely suffering from paranoia and serious case of psychosis.
Raj
Toronto, Canada
May 11, 2004 12:00 AM
70
Mr.Jagtaran:
Are you being sarcastic or are you for real?
What do you have against lower castes? Almost ALL pseudo-sec antinationals are upper-caste!!
Adi
Boston, USA
May 11, 2004 12:00 AM
69
Varun, that is precisely the point. In the retarded commie ideology of India's Marxists each Indian ethnicity is a Nation that may CHOOSE to be a part of the Indian Nation. This is precisely the reasons they are hell-bent on denying the Historical idea of India. The reason they constantly attack any idea of a glorious Hindu past is because the idea of India is integral to Hinduism. They need to discredit Hinduism first -so that they can wipe the slate clean and build their Utopia anew. Anyone with half the intelligence will see the danger of denying History and trying to wipe it out. One only needs to remember Pol Pot.
Those that lack the ability to think tend to be the most ideological - it substitures for intelligence. Marxism provides a great framework for this - Marx and Mao have already done all the thinking. These people only need to implement the Prophets' prophesies. Try reading Marx - he predicted the coming of Communist Utopia and the defeat of the evil "Capitalists" exactly like the semitic prophets prophesized the coming of Christ and the destruction of the "Devil" to create Utopia!!
Adi
Boston, USA
May 11, 2004 12:00 AM
68
Vajpayee moderate politics, Pakistan licking, Bangladesh licking, muslim appeasement and Naidu's neglect of farmers has pretty much sealed their fate in AP. Congress sweeped the elections in AP. Retire Vajpayee for the greater cause of Hindu unity. As i expected, people don't see much difference between Congress and BJP now.
Venkateswara Arava
NY, USA
May 11, 2004 12:00 AM
67
Ms. Roy should bear in mind that the very fact that she can view such opinions, especially about a ruling coalition, with such impunity reflects very, very favourably upon the nature of the above-mentioned coalition. The statement about the NDA reaping the fruits of the seeds sown by the Congress is remarkable similar to statements made in the US about the Democrats/Republicans, depending on which side of the fence one finds himself on. Her observations are basically unimaginative and stale and offer negligible insight. Yes, there are many things reprehensible in the Indian union, but it is no differant in other parts of the world and to portray one side so positively and the other so negatively is dangerously naive and incendiary. Ms. Roy is merely advised to study the prevalent American psyche before the start of the Iraq occupation, to get a better perspective on her own position.
Raveesh Varma
Grand Rapids, MI, USA
May 10, 2004 12:00 AM
66
adi,
1)i love my religion too much to convert into islam, only to see it hijacked by advanis and togadias. 2) i say, why the govt does not have the courage to go and bomb goghra? no. instead they go on a killing rampage in ahmedabad! that is wrong. suppose i were to rob a bank here in US and escape, and cops catch you as we happen to share our country and religion. 3) for the rest of your points, check my last mail, the end part. i am not taking side of muslims, i know all the harm mohuls did to indian socity, i think it shud b told in history books, but none of this justify what we are doing. 4)by malaysia etc. i was highlighting the fact that there is a possibility in reform in muslims, and there shud not be "no solution, disaster, kill them" thinking.
5) regarding naxalites, if i and my family were dying of hunger and exploited by state, i sure will go on rampage!!
6) i hated congress more earlier, but now its 50-50. when BJP came, i was a teenager, and foolishly i thought, ya this is time for change. they said ram temple, they dint build it. they said swadeshi, they went to extreme of privatization and were selling even IOCL!! that's dangerous. they said death penalty for rape, instead you just have look at the statistics, ever climbing disrespect for women. delhi's law and order is under central govt under advani, mind you. all in all, BJP seemed no different than congress, which is what article said, congress sowed the seeds..and both of them reaped! so we need to think about what system is in place and highlight state(state here means the machinery, the tehsildars, thanedars, talukedars..etc..i doubt you guys even know what these terms are, cause i have been to villages and have interacted with people and officials as a part of my job) devilness to all.
6)regarding turning blind eye to what army does, is dangerous for army itself! what do you want to do with the jawan, who raped a DU(hindu) student in delhi last year? param veer chakra? he has worked hard, he was sexually frustated. it is ok!! no, right. but then this case happened in capital and girl was brave enough to complain, so it cud not be supressed. what chance does a villager in manipur stand? 0. ARMY is not a human being. it consists of thousands of people, brave, upright to corrupt and devils. if you start justifying what devils do because they share the uniform with upright, then its a weak logic. that is nationalism at its dangerous form. see what is the reaction in US, when they came to know, what a few soldiers did in iraq prison. rumsfeld may lose his job. no body is raising the jingoism that brave army is unnecessarily victimized. and again this cud come fwd because it was american press that decided to expose it. like this every country will justify its army. japanese did in world war II! but thats not the way. more importantly my brother, who is a major in army, will get tarnished because some idiotic jawan used the situation to his advantage... do you get my point ???
nits
nashville, US
May 10, 2004 12:00 AM
65
This is to all the Ms. Roy supporters(esp Nits). I have a social work degree and have worked in the rural areas of India. While i admit there r problems in India but we have also made amazing strides like doubling our literacy rates in Fifty Years. Inspite of all that is said India treats its minorities very well, they can folloe their own personal law, and have all the rights as any other citizen. Ms. roy should stick to writing novels instead of pontificating. she does not speak for Indians unless she is elected to office which i dont think will ever happen . We Indians dont have time for such doomsday prophets.
bianca
calgary, canada
May 10, 2004 12:00 AM
64
ADI,
Please don't get me wrong but I think it is time to ignore some mental cases and move on, no matter what they try to do to incite us. They simply won't change. Imagine trying to put some sense into a guy from a mental asylum. It won't work. You know, I know and the whole world knows that the minorities are given the best protection in India despite the activities of majority of them. Time is coming to care about majority interests in this country. That is what this is all about. India is the last bastion of Hinduism whereas muslims have several countries in the world to live. Heavnes won't fall if they have to leave India for any reason. You seem to make intelligent debate but you need to understand that you are arguing with a nut case, a nut who is as ignorant as a guy coming from a remote place in Bihar. So, why waste your energy?
Venkateswara Arava
NY, USA
May 10, 2004 12:00 AM
63
And I agree with Venkateswara Arava. I let the discussion get sidetracked into a "convince Nits" item. His nonsensical reply to my earlier post makes it very clear that there is no talking sense to this man. Mr.Nits, I dub thee Laloo!
Adi
Boston, USA
May 10, 2004 12:00 AM
62
i you wanna live in delusion of your intellect powers, so be it...keep callin names... i am hardly bothered... bye for good.
nits
nashville, US
May 10, 2004 12:00 AM
61
oye these secular are bastards. we should kick out all muslims and christians and all these chooda's and chamars from india. dara singh was our greatest hero. jai dara singh.

it is proven that upper caste hindus are the greatest species on earth. by the way i am surprised what these people in america are saying about nationalism. please come back to india if you are nationalists.
jai thakur, jai hind
jaggtaran
delhi, india
May 10, 2004 12:00 AM
60
Of many silly comments made by Arundhati Roy is the allusion to so-called animist shrines beneath Hindu temples. Remember that Hinduism has no founder or start date, the way Christianity and Islam have. Hinduism has always existed in some form or another for untold thousands of years. Hinduism was likely at one time something like "animism" today; through time, layers uopm layers were added to it to give its modern shape.Besides there's the little question of proof, when one refers to animist structures beneath Hindu ones- always keeping in mind Hinduism's historical development and origin.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
May 10, 2004 12:00 AM
59
The way Arundhati Roy refers to Kashmir and the North East, you would think that these states are distant colonies of India which India has conquered and colonized. They are all integral parts of India's democratic, federal system, and they are without exception, democracies. One could perhaps understand a violent insurgency in an Idi Amin type dictatorship, but not in open,democratic states. These people are considered equals to other Indians; there's no question of any master-race/subject race relationship here, unlike in ex-European colonies where there was definitely a group of people with more rights and higher status lording it over the non-Europeans, who were seen as permanently inferior. Such a dichotomy has no relevance in the context of Kashmir, Assam, Nagaland or Tripura.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
May 09, 2004 12:00 AM
58
May be Arunditi needs to visit one (mental asylum) soon.
Alok Daga
Toronto, Canada
May 09, 2004 12:00 AM
57
I admire the passion, courage, energy and perception of the social conditions prevailing in the country. A Roys' efforts are commendable.

With all due respects, after reading the lecture it seems to me more of whining or pouring out the anguish. Nevertheless, while agree with some of the topics, I have to totally disagree with her views.

Coming to issues, POTA - It is true it seems draconian but Ms Roy fails to address the subversive elements in, out and around the country and the ways to deal with them. India is no exception, threatened by external factors a country like USA also is moving towards such laws.

Talking about Multinationals taking the country away - who is to blame here...nobody but the Indians. It is a known fact that Indian political leaders have been incompetent, corrupt and unworthy of being called a leader BUT what has become of the great Business leaders, where are they, where is their intelligence and business acumen, dont they have the competencies, cant they compete, dont they have the vision in their capitalistic world. Why do they cede ground to MNC's. ?

To make the story short, I could not agree any of her views other than the social injustice done to the poor and weak in the country. It is pathetic and every Indian with decent means is apathetic. Its a shame.

Rather than giving up on the situation and despite the odds of deeply established political organizations down to the college/university levels...what we need is a SOLID, TOUGH, COMPREHENSIVE LEGAL SYSTEM. IRRESPECTIVE OF ANY INDIVIDUAL WHATSOEVER WHOSOEVER HE MAYBE SHOULD NOT BE ABOVE THE LAW. ONLY A POWERFUL, STRONG LEGAL SYSTEM AND LEGAL INSTITUTIONS SEPERATE FROM POLITICAL INFLUENCE ONLY CAN BE THE WEAPON OF THE POOR AND WEAK.

I think the country at all levels lacks leaders who are passionate, ethical with integrity and honesty. Only institutions with such characteristics can save this country and such institutions can only breath and survive if the COMMON MAN who with no sense of what and whom they are voting awakes and opens his eye and upholds/supports such institutions. Well, this may not be THE SOLUTION for all problems but would be a start to put some social equality and justice.

It is sad that a country with tremendous talent, potential and power is dormant and will only realize its potential when the comman man awakes and takes up some responsibility if not anything just his support and views.

Rather than making our thoughts sound like pouring out anguish or whining the social acitivists and others should arouse and awaken the people to change their attitudes and behaviours. Maybe, we will see some positive change and light in the future.
sastri v
Hyderabad, India/USA
May 09, 2004 12:00 AM
56
arava, i can give you my phone no. and you check with me, wether i am a muslim thug or a hindu brahmin. I am saying that because of our failure as a socity as a hole we are blaming muslims, who incidentally form 13 % of population! and since there is a sense of frustation among the upper middle class, who are bought up in private schools but as they turn 16-17 etc. and start seeing the ghetto around, they wanna blame some one. they are so capable, but somehow are dissapointed that the current state of nation cannot support their superiority complex.... and that is where VHP comes... ill ask you the same thing! you sit in new york in a open minded "big picture" americans and want the indians to turn into BIGOTS! i never said pakistan is reformist. i said there are a minority muslims in pakistan as well who are reformists(if u ever read dawn). so cant there be an indian?. the blame game will eventually destroy us. i think that you are giving too much weightage to 13% of the population and ascribing all wrong to them . i say that more important is reform within hindu and indian society. the fact that state exploits villagers, poor(including upper caste), or any one who is vunerable. that also happens to include kashmiris and manipuris and north east and naxalites and maoists.. and so on(the real point of article)! it is your problem that when you see muslim, you automatically converted the whole issue to hindu muslim!. even if you eliminate muslims, these problems will remian. whom will you blame then? is indian society not in general turning to chaos day by day. in punjab, haryana, up , bihar(these, i kno of).. to become an inspector you have to cough out 10 lacs and you are there. are you on drugs, that you cannot see the criminilization and vulgarization of indian socity day by day! you are the same person who called sonia a B****, some time back. why am i even arguing with you!
will you allow your sister to go out in night in any of the hindi heart land among our hindu bretheren alone in night? i am not bothered how evil afghanis are, but to argue that if afghani's are evil then so can we be, is a ridiculous statement.
yes madarassas are dangerous, so... does it mean you start raping? what is the solution. cant you think of a state that educates muslims to bring out reforms, as much as they are required in hindus. ok..leave aside morality..practically, do you think it is possible to eliminate all muslims? after that how do you intend to handle the majority of lower castes and dalt hindus? if you are locked up in history.. then dont upper caste hindus owe a revenge, that dalits have to inflict. what about dravidians then? what modi did in gujrat ....(above ..hindu muslim problem) .. was destroy the system and law openly. do you understand the value of system and law?? do you understand the complexity of socity as a system? remember ...all forms of fundamentalism is a snake, it will one day bite you back. see what happened in case of afghanis... they startes as freedom moment, kicking out russians, later what happened.. they bite back their owners as well as their own people!! during my teenage years, i supported advani blindly, may be at that time it was justified, because really...hindus really became silent spectators to what congress was doing. later did you not observe that for all the congress appeasement, muslims largely remain a poor, uneducated community? any ways that issue is over now. hindus needed to make a statement .. that they made...grow up dude.. don't call names.... it will be my kids and yours who are going to inherit that socity, from you and me, and the last thing i want is them to grow up as bigots!! giving into hate is easy. ... standing for justice is courage!
nits
nashville, US
May 09, 2004 12:00 AM
55
Wow Mr.Nits (I apologize for mistaking your sex) - if you bothered to read what I read, and I quote you if you take the trouble to read what you wrote: "Hindus increasingly using rape" - and you talk about Rapes in Kashmir? So the islamic terrotrists who committed rapes against Hindus are Hindus in your definition?? Wow! Of course you are going to tell me that it is the Army. Sure, but how do you know that the Army is "Hindu" - the last time I checked, there were Christians and Muslims in the Army!! You are truly Nuts my friend!! Don't get so worked up calling me a Fascist, read what I wrote. As for your "secular islamic utopia" in Turkey and Malaysia perhaps your pseudo-sec blinkered eyes have selective-sight. Have you ever heard of Kurdish massacre and the Armenian genocide? Ever bother to find out how Hindus in Malaysia live? They are the most disinfranchised of all Hindu communities living outside Inida! And by the way, try to read V.S.Naipauls books on his travels through the non-Arab Islamic countries, you may actually see what the hell life is like for minorities in ANY Islamic country. AND I SAY THIS AGAIN, ANY COUNTRY WITH AN ISLAMIC MAJORITY, Turkeys and all included!
As for "liberals" and "reformists" in Pakistan, please! Nawaz Sharif and Pervez Musharraf are considered Secular and quoted as such in the international media - ever heard one of his speeches exhorting his people to become "enlightened muslims" - whatever that means. The simple fact is that liberal minded muslims in ALL ISLAMIC COUNTRIES DO NOT WANT TO GRANT EQUAL RIGHTS TO MINORITIES!!! As long as they can not understand the simple idea behind secularism that all are equal IRRESPECTIVE of religion, the simple fact that they don't have anything against a minority DOES NOT CHANGE ANYTHING!
B.T.W, I have only the greatest sympathy for the Muslims who suffered from the riots, don't assume what I think. However, I would not go out blaming all Hindus for what happend as you do. If you think Hindus are rapists, please convert to Islam and where you don't have to be called a Rapist. Simply marry 4 and take some "temporary wives".
Adi
Boston, USA
May 09, 2004 12:00 AM
54
Dear MR.Nits,
1) I think you suffer from a guilt problem because of you are a Brahmin - I don't.
2) Your claims regarding reform of Hinduism - I don't think ANY of us are against that! Again you assume incorrectly.
3) It is easy to blame the governments and call them fascists as "a roy" does. We are protesting against her selective criticism obviously aimed at Hindus and hypoctitical ranting.
4) She calls the Government fascist for "killing Naxalites" - enlighten me, who started the Killings? Do you have any idea what Class war means in Maoist ideology? How are they different from Mullahs that declare people Heretics to be punished to death? Because they call the "Heretics" "Class Enemies" (enlgish)
5) What is the solution to "state exploits villagers, poor(including upper caste), or any one who is vunerable."? Calling a democratically elected government Fascist?
6) "cant you think of a state that educates muslims to bring out reforms, as much as they are required in hindus." - My friend's father is a mechanic and sent his son to college. They have taken the first step into entering the middle class!! He did not complain that the government was not pampering him!!! Why can't the muslims send their children to School? Is it my fault that they would rather send their children to Madrasas funded by Saudi Arabia!!
7) Don't mix Dalit Hindus and lower castes with Muslims. It is easy for Muslims to simply point at lower castes and say - see, Hindu Fascists!! It is easy to paint yourself a victim, complain and RIOT at the first opportunity!!
8) Read point above - I am NOT against Muslims living in India. I am against Muslims painting Hindus as oppressors. PEOPLE OF YOUR KIND actively participate in this demonization of Hindus and encourage Muslims to riot at the slightest provocation.
9) There is are choices that can be made in responding to an imbalanced situation. I will give you the example of India (Majority HINDU) and Pakistan (Same people ad us, but ALL MUSLIM). In a world dominated by the West, Indians are making a mark and earning respect by making a mark in the IT industry for instance - this is our response to an imbalanced power situation. We are rectifying it by leveraging it. What is Pakistan's response? Ranting about how the West is oppressing Muslims and building the mother of all terrorist havens in their country. If you can not make sense of this, I don't need to respond to you.
10) I think violent response is dangerous since the same people will turn against each other eventually - However, when the "secular" government and the "secular" media have consistently failed to address the concerns of Hindus, how do you think they were going to respond? If YOU DO NOT ADDRESS THE CONCERNS OF HINDUS, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR the violent response. The only thing you do is rant against Hindus (with ridiculous statements like "hindus are increasingly indulging in rape")
11) I don't want my kids to grow up in a society where they are regularly labelled Fascists and Fundamentalists for being Hindu. Can you get that through your head?
Enough said!

Adi
Boston, USA
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
53
Guyz, there's no need to be so worked up about this nut-case's pissant perorations! First and foremost, she is a businesswoman. To be deliberately potty even before sane, ordinary audiences is her business strategy, and before the largely Muslim audiences of AMU, her business model doesn't allow her any other option but to be super-potty!

In this age of high deci-bel product marketing, even those in the agitprop industry have to differentiate their offerings from those of their rivals. Underneath packaging, Lux and Hamam are both same -- soaps that yield the same results when applied on your skin -- but in order to distinguish itself from Hamam, Lux projects itself as the soap of film stars. That's called product differentation. If A Roy said the same stuff as, say, an Imam Bukhari or a Syed Shahabuddin or a Praful Bidwai, what's *her* edge then, eh? Can a multinational tycoon of the international protest business afford to sound commonplace, like any Tom, Dick and N Ram? Can a Booker-Winner protest-junkie afford to sound like your average leftwing loonie? The answer is NO. She cannot. She has but no option to sound LOONIER.

So, don't get all angry. Even most of Roy's fans themselves don't take her seriously. Mean while, have fun reading this:

http://www.exile.ru/138/great_literat ury_frauds_of_our_time.html
Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
52
It is not at all surprising to find such animosity against Ms. Arundhati Roy reflected in the letters on this website. English is the language of the elite in India and this class protects and glorifies its interest like none other. The elite in India are fed on a kind of news and history that concretizes the national imagination which is again very elitist in nature. A voice that speaks out against such an elite imagination is received as horrific and criticized as being one sided and false.
I applaud Ms. Roy’s scholarly skill and her honesty. This article of hers, like all other is inspiring and I wish that there were more writers like her. Those who shout her down are the kind who have led protected lives and grown up believing mythology rather than history. I understand that they form the biggest obstacle in the empowerment of the dalits, the adivasis and all other regionally, socially and culturally marginalized groups and they will continue to do so even in the future. However, dialogue must continue and there is always the possibility of people like Ms. Roy drilling some sense into these champions of fascism and neo-liberalism. I would also like to take this opportunity to ‘cast my vote’ to be in the team which have ideologues like Ms. Roy and when we do have the ‘revolution’ to empower the vast majority who are economically and socially disempowered, we shall be comrades-in-arm.
Waquar Ahmed,
Columbus, Ohio.
USA
Waquar Ahmed
Columbus, USA
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
51
Hello Ahmed, do you know that one of the most marginalized groups in India are Muslim women? They are scared even to leave their burqas aside. In Kashmir, Islamic fundamentalists would kill them if they didn't wear the veil. Heard the case of little Ameena? All of 12 years old, she was sold as a bride to a lecherous, gaeriatric Arab, who was caught spiriting away his 'bride' to Gulf. This temporary marriage business is a thriving business today, ruining the lives of many Muslim girls.

I assume that A Roy is a woman. But she doesn't speak up for oppressed Muslim women. She doesn;t advise them to cast their symbol of oppression -- the veil -- aside and step bravely into the modern world to empoer themselves with education and employment. Why?

Because A Roy is a businesswoman, and she knows there's no profit to be made in giving out shrill declamations of male chauvinism of Muslim communities.
Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
50
Dear Mr. Reddy,
It seems that you have a problem understanding the discourse that is being espoused. The discourse is about rabid communalism and elitist anarchy that has been let loose in India. Though your concern for Muslim women is not misplaced, yet, it is not only Muslim women who are oppressed. Rather, it is women in general who are oppressed and marginalized and I am sure that you must have come across 70 year old Hindu man married to a 17 year old girl. Please do not view this problem as community specific, unless you want to indulge in polemics. This is rather a problem of poverty occurring on account of accumulation of capital in the hands of a few. Please do not give it a communal twist. Mr. Roy’s purpose here is to thread bear the hegemonic system which perpetuates a regime where there is a privileged population acting as parasites on the poor who work hard but are unable to accumulate and assimilate privileges. Such a system that is to the advantage of the elite is perpetuated on the foundation of communalism/fascism, caste based oppression, disempowerment and suppression of women (as in the case of the purdah system or the rape of women in Gujarat).
Waquar Ahmed,
Columbus, Ohio
Waquar Ahmed
Columbus, USA
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
49
Well, the problem with you self-proclaimed liberals Mr Ahmed is that you live in a perpetual state of denial. You have already communalized the discourse by projecting only segments of the Hindu society -- dalits and adivasis -- as the marginalized, conveniently forgetting that Muslim women are the most oppressed segment of Indian population. So oppressed, as Shah Bano case has shown, that they cannot even hope for alimony if their husbands utter the dreaded word thrice. Do you know that stats show that Muslim women are the LEAST literate section of Indian society? A recent EPW article has statistically shown that even educated Muslim women have more children than less educated Hindu women! This is the result of centuries of conditioning, where women are seen as mere procreation machines.

You, like Ostricth Roy, want to pretend that the problem of oppression of Muslim women either doesn't exist or is no more serious than that of Hindu women!

Roy is among the creame of the elite, thank you. She owns a piece of land in the hills of MP -- adivasi region -- constructed a luxurious bungalow where laws do not allow any construction at all! How many Indians own such vacation homes in the cool regions of uplands!? A trip to Shimla or Ooty is the highpoint of life for most. A Roy owns a whole damned holiday resort kind of place -- illegally constructed to boot -- and you tell me that she's not the elite!?Thankfully, the state government is fighting to regain possession of that piece of land.
Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
48
WAQUAR AHMED,
You think people are stupid not to understand why your liberal thoughts were more in tune with the likes of Roy? I will expose the truth in plain and simple language. Muslims are in a minority in India and so are you here in USA. That's why those liberal thoughts coming out from you. Before writing all that crap, just name one major muslim majority country on the face of this earth where there is democracy, freedom, where Islam is not incorporated as a state religion in the constitution, where real elections were conducted periodically. And you have the audacity to label Hindu groups as fascists? If I have to list the crimes and human rights voilations committed by your groups, it would take for ever, not to mention the evils of your society in treating women and children. For me, there is only difference between Bin Laden and Roy. While the former is a field terrorist, she is a intellectual terrorist. Their goals are pretty much the same i.e create anarchy, poverty, terror, panic etc.... Honesty is a word alien to her. My opinion, arrest her for inciting voilence against Hindus, put her in a cell and thrash her to pulp. When she is making wild allegations against our security forces anyway, why not thrash her to make her words come true. What India needs is more honest and bold leaders like Modi in every state and at the center. That is the only way to fight these terrorist like Roy.
Venkateswara Arava
NY, USA
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
47
So whats the solution Mr. Ahmed ... Islam ? Hmmm ... lets look at the state of the Islamic nations today ! Are they paragons of liberalism, free thought, human rights, minority, rights ...

And pray, why dont we hear any talk of the fascism that exists in these countries or in the minds of Muslims ? Simple, because this Nazism / Fascism is Islam.

Mr. Ahmed, Engish need not be the language of the elites ... it can be the language of a "lower caste" Hindu like me who came up in poverty ...with parents who cant read and write properly ... have you heard the phrase "India shining" ?

Also, Mr. Ahmed et al Roys fulminations can only be welcomed by (a) Cretins b) Islamofascists (c) Missionaries and (d) Marxists.

Please choose your category !!!
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
46
again .. as i told you ms roy. you should be more clever in your writings. as i had expected(see my first letter), the people made it exceptionally a hindu, muslim issue. while i am sure motive was the our huge hideous machinery and ideologies. as soon as these people see muslim, there head starts moving left , right, left . with each sentence as the truth comes out, the frequency of their no , no , wrong ...increases. how to get the point across them. what % of population is muslim? 13% ! why are you so afraid . i think it has more to do with the thinking of "blame it on the rain". when they see around themselves, the utter chaos.and immorality, they cant take the blame. whom to blame? lets blame it on muslims. i also agree that RSS is not what you make it out to be. i personally think it has done good work, but it is beginning to be more of fundamentalist organization. for everything, blame it on pakistan. they even tried this stunt when disease spread in surat some years ago! i also disagree on your highly socialist inclinations, there are some errors, but that doesn't mean you miss the whole point of the article, and that is, how this machinery, this system has become a dinosour on its own. how the incidents go unreported, in vast rural indias. have you ever wondered who those people in the streets are begging. why do they not go back to their villages and manage some food there, atleast they willl have dignity. for the vast upper middle class fanatics, these "scums" do not exist. why will a tribal women report a rape to police when it was police who raped her? why would a manipuri report when those who stole were from army? news paper write to sell. TOI, just look at that paper. a tabloid. it is a largest selling paper. it does not bother to write all incidents untill they are shocking to incease sales value. so you dont see these. but you can enquire. Mr. singh wants me killed! why? he sits in US.. have you ever looked around and seen how balanced and decent and open minded the americans are? do they go in mobs in violent spree killing and raping? learn from them atleast.and if you dont care for the deprived then dont, why do you want to kill and rape those who do? Mr. singh. i guess these people have a distorted picture of what the truth is and live in their own world of "nationalism" and when some one dare disturbs the picture, they are irritated, and start abusing, calling names, murder him , rape her.
hindus are increasingly using rape as weapon, much like what serbs did! do you know how you are hurting the image of hindus all over. what will our posterity think of us as a generation?
some 1 writes, she is surviving on the few deprived. do you know the % of deprived in india?
an autorikshaw driver, mind you is much above the poverty line! he comes in top 40% of our population, to give you some idea...
so ms roy, as an advise, if you wanna get your point across, package it better, avoid controversy and calling names, because as a human tendency, whenever we see a hint that accusations might be pointing to us, we immedeately build the wall in the brain , and the writer is enemy. this way you will not finish your objective. maybe lie a little, but lets remeber, important point is to get the point across, especially to those who are on other side. but still, you are the bravest person i know of. i really appreciate all your care for deprived. your supporters may be miniscule(as far as upper middle class) is concerned, but i recognize how important is the work you are doing.
may god give peace to all those deprived of justice and bread.
nits
nashville, US
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
45
I'm glad Arundhati Roy brought up the idea of a mental asylum. That's exactly where she belongs.
Anand
Santa Clara, USA
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
44
i can't help remembering dialogue's of deewar, in the context of responseS HERE and the self proclaimed "hindu savers"...although this article...as i said earlier was not about hindu muslim at all...take it lightly, it may not fill in context entirely...try to get what i am saying

amitabh(AB);yaad hai ravi, hum kaise 1 phutpaath pe akele sote the...
shashi kapoor(SK); bhai tum sign karte ho ke nahee
ab; yaad hai humaree maa ne kaise hame din raat mehnat karke bada keeya...
sk;bhai tum sign karoge ya naheen..
ab;haan main sign karoongaa, magar sabse pehle naheen,
jao pehle us aadmee kaa sign le ke aao jisne mere baap se sign leeya tha, pehle us aadmee ka sign le ke aao, jisne meree maa ko gaali de kar naukree se nikal deeya tha..jaao pehle us aadmee ka sign le kar aao, jisne mere haath pe ye likh deeya tha...fir tum jahan kahoge,mere bhai, main wahan sign karoongaa...
SK;DOOSRON KE PAAP GINANE SE TUMHARE APNE PAAP KAM KAM NAHEE HO SAKTE, DOOSRON KA JURM SABIT KARNE SE YE SACCHAAI NAHEEN BADLATEE KEE TUM BHEE 1 CHOR HO, AUR JAB TAK YE 1 SACCHAI HAI, HUM DONO KE BEECH MAIN 1 DEEWAR HAI BHAI,AUR HUM 1 CHAT KE NEECHE NAHEEN RAH SAKTE...CHALO MAA...
AB:maa kaheen nahee jayegee,
nirupa roy: maa jayegee.....
WO AADMEE JISNE TERE BAAP KA SIGN LEEYA WO TERA KAUN THA? .....KOI NAHEEN
WO AADMEE JISNE TEREE MAA KO GAALI DE KAR NAUKREE SE NIKAAL DEEYA, WO TERA KAUN THA?.. KOI NAHEEN,
WO AADMEE JISNE TERE HAATH PE LIKH DEEYA KE TERA BAAP 1 CHOR HAI, WO TERA KAUN THA?... KOI NAHEEN,
MAGAR TU TO MERA BETA THA... MERA APNA KHOON, TUNE APNEE MAA KE SAR PE YE KAISE LIKH DEEYA KEE USKAA BETA 1 CHOR HAI, 1 KHOONI HAI!
...TU ABHEE ITNAA AMEER NAHEEN HUA KEE APNEE MA KO KHAREED SAKE.

nits
nashville, US
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
43
This article is entirely about Hindu brutality and suppressed muslims. Only a blind man or a brainwashed pseudo-secular fanatic will see it in a different way.
Venkateswara Arava
NY, USA
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
42
The kind of intolerance that is so deep rooted in the mind of the elites (including the Non-resident Indians) is perplexing. These are the same people who have had everything available to them on a golden platter at the expense of the deprived proletariat, yet, they espouse hatred in the name of religion, caste, gender, et al. In the vitiated environment that they generate and perpetuate, they are not even willing to provide space to suppressed voices so that they too may be heard heard. If the person expressing his opinion has Ahmed or Mohammed or Karim or Khatoon as his/her name, the first thing that is done is that this person is hit ‘below the belt’. His/her opinion, rather than being analyzed and debated upon, is immediately labeled as ‘an Islamic voice’, and de-legitimized.

Another issue that is constantly raised is about fundamentalism in the Arab World, to cow down the voices of anyone with Ahmed or Mohammed in his name who speaks about communalism in India. Well friends, India is, what it is, secular or communal, not because a segment of the elite has chosen it to be that way. It is secular because our society is very interwoven. The secular character of India is a product of the bonding that all communities including Muslims have with one another at the grass-root level. The rights that all communities in India have is not a favor that has been granted to them, but is a result of shared history and struggle, so please avoid statements which sounds as if fundamental rights and equal treatment before law are favors that the NRIs or the erstwhile feudal or privileged groups have granted as alms to the ‘others’.

I also suggest that before one writes something about the article, one should reads it thoroughly. Ms. Roy criticizes not only the BJP but also the Congress for its role in the growth of communalism in India. She is definitely not supporting any kind of communalism amongst the Muslims, and I am sure that people like Ms. Roy, including me, are highly critical of the communal elements in all community. However, it has to be understood that the RSS brand of communalism in India comes along with state support and becomes a way of life. Thus it needs to be opposed by one and all. On the other hand, minority communalism can be easily identified and isolated. After all, which Islamic fundamentalist calling for ‘war, rape and killing’ has become a chief minister of a cabinet minister or the president or for that matter, even a municipality representative in India?

Lets get together and save India from those who are subverting the very philosophy on which this country is based. Lets make India a country where there is love and unity rather than hatred and riots. People like Ms. Roy are disturbed at what has happened to India in the last few years. Do not doubt her love for the land that she belongs to. She express the anguish of the suppressed voices. This is love for the people of India. This is love for India for India is not made up of pieces of land in Kashmir or the North-East or the Gangetic plains. Rather India is made up of people and that should come first. Should not our hearts cry when people living in any part of our country are made to suffer? Lets say that we will stop the suffering of the masses in all parts of India and we shall fight for the dignity of all of India’s citizens before we say that this lump or that lump of land belongs to ‘us’ and we shall not give up an inch of the same!

Waquar Ahmed,
Columbus, Ohio, USA
Waquar Ahmed
Columbus, USA
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
41
well said Mr. ahmed.
is it my fault that mulayam and laloo call themselves secular? these people have heard the word pseudo-secular from somewhere and keep on ranting it. the riots in gujrat were the first one that were state sponsered in india. is it not a dangerous trend. Bal thackrey during 60's had ordered south indians out of mahrashtra. they were kicked out. the remaining changed their names to marathi. do you support this Rao's and reddy's and venkata, in the name of collective punishment. I have been mistreated in chennai, duped of money. does it mean, i go back to delhi and start raping south indian women to teach them a lesson? is it not deeprooted feudalistic villager mentality? why do you want to identify with religion. were dalits to get more power they would want to avenge 1000's of years of injustice meeted out to them and start "revenge rapes" on thakurs and brahmins? by this line of thinking, you guys will also be supprting that!" No, No, not that. that goes against us"! will you not say at that time, "wasn't my fault. my family never supported it"! then? we often read news, where in indian villages, panchayat allowed a person to rape some other women because her son had stolen from him(sick). Do you approve that?
but again, that is all as far as religion and thinking is concerned! the point of the article, that of this dragon called state(irrespective of BJP/congress), that is infinite mouthed monster, is torturing, raping,exploiting anyone vunerable, be it adivasi, dalit, muslim, christian , poor brahmin villager, slum dweller or any one who cannot raise the voice while we upper middle class and rich carry on with our everyday lives in paradise IS A DANGEROUS TREND! the only people who can make a difference is educated, but with the views like this, not only in outlook but every where, i have almost lost all hope. india will anyway progress, as long as you define it in monetary terms..etc..untill some one decides to unite all deprived(a rather impossible task , given india's diversity!)politicians never had anything to do with our progress. only one who ever made a difference was manmohan singh, who liberalized us(may be due to US pressure) otherwise we are hardworking, intelligent people. but then what about so much sin been committed! with these kind of views, whatever happened to humanity? will it be fit to live in? cant you already feel the chaos that it is under?
remember this. india has not contributed anything to modern science and technology(except raman, and bose), we just form a good service class for already existing technology! contribution of our era of indians to humanity is zero. we are not superpower in either economy or sports or anything. do you know what west is amazed at?? that there exist more than 20 languages, so many religions and cultures. there is no country like india, in this sense. if you destroy even that last piece of prestige, what will happen to our identity? so i request, start questioning yourself.
nits
nashville, US
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
40
mr ahmed,
In the USA,where you prosperously live,lincoln was considered a hero for having saved the country from partition and secessionist Booth assasinated him .In India Gandhi/Nehru easily agreed to Partion and AKHAND BHARAT Godse assasinated them .If India was based on the great ideals of unity that you so hypocritically have lectured about,then why did we have a partition with millions(mostly hindus) dead.And why did your community vote for pakistan in 1946.And why did Nehru Gandhi agree to this blatantly communal partition decision.And worse Gandhi would go on fast only to stop Hindus from defending themselves against the culturally violent muslims
.Even to day in Nigeria they did a Godhra on Christians are fighting for a separate homeland in buddhist majority thailand,(and chechnya and kashmir and phillipines and chinaetc).The only difference is that these countries are like Lincoln and believe in Unity unlike the Nehru Gandhi traitors pimping for communal islam that conquered 1/3 of undivided India in 1947 and has converted many areas of India into Muslim ghettos who are a law unto themselves where Hindus cannot reside safely and peacefully.eVEN peaceful THAI
buddhists are at the end of their patience.Instead of using Madrasa brainwashed logic use western scientific reasoning.Or is it
that you live in Usa for material prosperity while expecting headscarves for women in schools,loudspeakers at 5.30 in the morning to wake up nonmuslims,namaaz on roads ,haj subsidies and polygamy.Try asking for this in USA if you darewhich ofcourse u dont.Only coward and corrupt Hindu leaders can agree to your demands from partition in 1947 to Shahbano in 1986 to Mulayam's Friday halfday
n gangadas
austin, usa
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
39
Sorry, this Nits girl is cracking me up with her imagined letters to Ms.Roy "again.. as i told you ms roy"... like "ms roy" were reading her letters and would somehow rewrite the article and re-publish it following her mommy-like advice!! Ms.Nits you are Nuts!! :)
Adi
Boston, USA
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
38
I am sorry Mr.Ahmed, you were the one who started talking about the rights of "Dalits and Adivasis" - like there were no problems with Muslims - you point fingers at me and act self-righteous, don't expect me to pamper you - some of us have lost our patience with your likes! I actually bumped into some "Islamic Protesters" with black flags today in Jackson Heights (NY). They huge posters denouncing "Racist America oppressing their rights" and how Abortions are an abomination against "Humanity". For good measure, they even had a huge sign reading "If Jews(Israel)can be paid millions of dollars every year, why not reparations for African Americans". The temerity of these fools to criticize "America" while their brothers go around mass-murdering people all over the world is sickening! I don't find your "enlightened" spoutings in pseudo-commie jargon any different!! Before you presume to criticize Hindus as oppressors, take a look at the mirror. As for your claims that the discussion is not about religion and that you are unfairly being targeted for being a Muslim, please - this argument is getting old.
The secular character of India is NOT because of any "interweaving" as you claim. India was DEMONSTRABLY secular BEFORE your "interweaving" happened. Communal violence at horrific scales DEFINITELY started with the Muslims.
The only "sharing" that muslims did in the freedom struggle resulted in the vivisection of India.
I don't give two hoots if she criticizes Congress - this is not a game of one-upmanship BJP vs. Congress. This is an issue of an irresponsible spoilt woman cursing the very society that allows her the freedom to do so and most DESPICABLY, the soldiers that die fighting for her right to freedom!
When you speak about "the dignity of all of India's Citizens" please do the kindness of including the enlightened social values and liberal religious practices of the Muslim community of India. Many of us harbour the suspicion that Muslims are so enlightened that they don't even live in the same world as us!!
Adi
Boston, USA
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
37
B.T.W, not Mr.Ahmed's liberalism - when you talk about Muslim women being mistreated, immediately his answer is to say all women are oppressed, it is not a Hindu Muslim issue. But talk about the Government (Read BJP), immediately they become communal, oppressive and monstrous!!
What was that about "Hindus increasingly using rape" Ms.Nits? Do you keep statistics on which community indulges "increasingly" in Rapes? Let's see the statistics. Please, we are waiting.
Adi
Boston, USA
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
36
If you try to say the truth, why dont you say the whole truth and nothing but the truth, why you choose to see only one side of the coin. If RSS, VHP and Bajrang Dal, and so many preach hatred and you are concerned, arent' you not concerned with hatred preached in various madarassas, or Lashkar or the numerous names we heard every day, aren't you not concerned by the 'induced' conversions, what did they do wrong? dont those merit a mention in your analysis. Do you think the 56 hindus burnt to death are cheaper and not worth condemning such an act. And by the way how minority communities are being gradually impoverished? puzzling it is, when they get exclusive seats in minority colleges, and also in majority colleges through quota. Exclusive benefits through foreign funding for various miniroty colleges and institution, when the state or private marjority colleges are to source for their own funding or govenment funding. This foreign funding is non-taxed and most importantly they dont have to account for it to government. When they get exclusive education and benefits how they get impoverished, they life as a percentage of their population is much better overall then any average non-minority (in India who is really not impoverished, you have addressed that already in your analysis)
R
Herndon, VA, usa
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
35
If the person expressing his opinion has Ahmed or Mohammed or Karim or Khatoon as his/her name, the first thing that is done is that this person is hit ‘below the belt’.

That is rich coming from you, Mr Ahmed. The first thing you do when somebody with a Hindu name disagrees with you is start screaming Fascist! Nazi! Gujarat! Rapes! Murders!

Speaking of marginalized peoples, two important points: 1) the Kashmiri Hindus are totally disenfrnachised. For a decade and half they have been living as refugees. In her speech, Protest Queen A Roy tells her fundamentalist Muslim audience precisely what they want to hear: an extr-super-exaggerated account -- exaggeration on viagra, if you will -- of alleged human rights abuses in Kashmir, but NOT a word on the marginalized Kashmir Hindus. She's a shrewd businesswoman who knows her market and her customers extremely well.

Second point. In Gujarat riots, many of the Hindu killers of Muslims were adivasis. Of course, Prtest Queen attributes it to the usual suspect, Hindutva, but there is another theory: that these marginalized adivasis were oppressed by the rich Muslim landlords they worked for, and so when opportunity came, they took it out on them.

As somebody pining for marginalized peoples, did you investigate the latter possibility? That what we saw in Gujarat is not a communal riot but a class struggle where the bourgeoisie were mostly Muslim and the peasants and the proles mostly Hindu?
Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
34
My respects to RAGHU REDDY, ADI, GANGADAS, ANAND, DHARMAYUDH SINGH, SONKAR, AHMED, RAJENDRAN KUMARAN, CHANDRA, ANAND BHOGLE, NICK, PANKAJ SHRIVASTAV, GAURAV, R. SRIVATSAN, BIANCA and all those who are out daring to speak the truth. It is heartening to note that more and more people are coming out and taking on these anti-national-pseudo-secular nexus.
Venkateswara Arava
NY, USA
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
33
hey adi dude, what gave you an idea, i am a girl?? let me tell you... i am a convert from a pro mandir( i still favor ram mandir)bjp supporter against corrupt congress, to ..a supporter of nothin but truth.(and try coming one to one sometime, ill show you what courage i wield).. when i see the moral depravity existing in hindu society as well, you talk as if i am a traitor. who gave us this identity as a nation. it was not some idiotic fanatic like togadia, but it was Adi Sankaracharya, ramakrishna, tilak , gandhee and patel. were they fanatics? they all stressed on reform within.(bar patel..but neither did he support rioting) ....essentially to people like you!... you are accusing Mr. ahmed just because he happens to be muslim. i know muslims who are reformists in pakistan, they are everywhere. iran students, who revolted against khomaini,etc. cant you for a second imagine a muslim speaking sense..you speak afghanistan..cant you see progressive muslim socities like malaysia and turkey...dont you know hindu minority lives in peace there and diwali is a national festival??. you are blinded...dude. i know roy is not reading this. but i want to put the point across. it is laughable that this essay was made a hindu muslim by you guys...all it stated was truth...i knew this would happen , the instant i read it...if you bother to check my first mail! what do you want to achieve by this fanatacism? is it your frustation or facts hyperboled to make 80% majority of india..hating every other minority for political interests. yes... i am also afraid of al queda designs... so how do you tackle muslim problem in india...by killing them all? what is the fault of ten year old child in ahemedabad street who was "mob raped"? does she know the difference between hindu muslim? how can you justify this citing atrocities by babar??
the answer is reform their socity , if there is afghanistan , there is turkey as well. at the same time, are you not giving so much importance to only one problem. does india faces only muslim extremism as a priblem?? are we as a hindu socity not in a state of ghettos. every time we speakl of any other problem... you start ranting your old hindu muslim,...message.
if security forces have great patriots it also has devils. cant you see that if we dont destroy those evils...our brave soldiers also get tarnished, for if not now then later, the truth shall come out. and dont teach me on that. i am from a army family and lot of my relatives are in army. how dare you say that roy should be great ful that she can speak freely. ill say you should be greatful to tilaks and gandhees and mehta and people like me (who created this atmosphere which could generate middle class and intelligesia out op people who at independence were 95% illiterate and there was no reason india could not have ended up like another afghanistan , congo or ethopia!) allow you to speak, your nonsense. who gave you the idea, you own hindus and all their ideologies.! hinduism is definitely not what you preach.
by the way none of you even tried to answer any of the questions raised by my earlier mails.
so atop this personal attack, calling roy a ra***, me a traitor answer issues raised by me and others! again ...dont underestimate strength of a person just beacuse he is a reformist. for given the statistics..., were roy to incite passions of hatred on those who live deprived, the nation will be bathed in blood.
nits
nashville, US
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
32
"What was that about "Hindus increasingly using rape" Ms.Nits? Do you keep statistics on which community indulges "increasingly" in Rapes?" you wileld the same ghetto mentality as the village panchayat i was talking about. they rape, so let us rape. by the way, in gujrat 56 rapes, combined with innumerous in kashmir( the press censors it... i remember reading a horrifying account in early 90's in illustrated weakly...which was closed after some months, and again one in rediff, where media agreed that such things happen and recounted 100's but the same magazine did not report those earlier!), manipur and tribals adivasis. dude, you sit in your boston apartment and ask me for statistics!
no. of rapes against foreign tourists in delhi is a record! they were at least reported.
rapes of nuns in madhya pradesh. you seem to have forgotten. by the way who else is indulging in this in india??
nits
nashville, US
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
31
NITS,
Are you on drugs or something?
Looks like you are because you did mention some of the questionable and ridiculous things I have ever heard.

Moral depravity existing in hindu society? You mean they don't carry AK-47's like women and children do in Islam?
Muslims who are reformists in pakistan? Are you talking about the same society that take street protests in support of Bin Laden and fundamentalists?
Iran students, who revolted against khomaini? Are you talking about the same students you are getting recruited and fighting alongside the fundamentalists in Iraq?
progressive muslim socities like malaysia and turkey?
You see Hindus celebrating Diwali in these countries but not muslims in India?
You talk about the incident of a ten year old child in Ahmedabad street who was "mob raped"? Well, what is the fault of those Kashmiri pandits who were either butchered or kicked out of their own land called Kashmir? Where was your concern for them?
You say you are from a military family, yet you dare us for suggesting that Roy should be grateful to the armed forces? For me, you are a mullah thug faking all this stuff. Whatever happened in Gujarat by Modi is a just and proportional response to what muslims have been doing to India and Hindus. Weak Hindus like Vajpayee might apologize for votes but not me or any Hindu in his/her senses. You talk about rape of nuns but what about the butchering of Hindu families most recently in Kerala? How many newspapers reported the issue? Even Dara Singh was villified by the press for nothing as it was later turned out that he wasn't even a Bajrang Dal member as the media barked and he wasn't involved either in the buring of those missionaries. Check the court records and tesimony of all the witnesses and CBI. You sit in Nashville and dare to repeat the same rubbish that our secular media put out for public comsumption? People with half knowledge like you should get their facts straight before writing messages. Coming to Roy, India can find such scoundrals in every corner of the street, every waiting to get some cheap publicity and prying on the vulnerable sections of the society.

I dare you, next time you go to India, go to a Hindu sabha meeting, criticize the Hindus, then do the same by going to Aligarh Muslim University and criticize Islam. See what happens. Make sure you go to Hindu sabha first, not AM univeristy. Otherwise you won't get a chance to visit the second one and make a comparison.
Venkateswara Arava
NY, USA
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
30


This lady is the Devil incarnate, a krypto-christian hiding behind a hindu-like name. The power of Dharma-saasta needs to be invoked for her annulment, as in the case of another similar evil woman called mahishi.
Ms. Roy is actually calling for a parallel parliament and, perhaps, government, supported by forces like PWG [prophets’ war group], MAO [Moslems all over], Naxalites [ nabhi’s action elites] etc all coordinated by the ISI [international sword of islam] and funded by the Rome-Riyadh-London axis of vanca-jaalaka [evanjelic] conversionist Christians, jehaadhi Moslems and shylockian jews of the East India Company, for creating anarchy socially and politically in India, for stalling her progress into a dynamic and powerful democracy, until the population explosion of Moslems and property expansion of Christians can snuff the hindus out of action.
What is urgently needed is an actively organised and coordinated unity among all hindus, irrespective of castes, along with cooperation with non-conversionist national Christians and non-jehadi patriotic Moslems, to identify these adverse forces, neutralize them and carry on with India’s progress unabated, nationally and internationally.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
29
I have gone briefly through this usual mindless critisism of, the establishment, Hindu fanatics
and so forth.

Just a few lines stating that muslims are the true salt of India.

Has any one considered how India would be if this country was populated by Hindu's alone, with exception of a few exotic minorities.

No Laloo Prasad, Mulayam Singh, or the muslim vote banks.

No friday prayers in the middle of busy roads.
No special areas as in every Indian town or city, where men go around dressed in skull caps and beards, women in black burquas, mosques and madrassahs, No fatwas and demand for special laws
for them. And no constituency which can split society and elect so called secular politicians, who in fact are the opposite of being secular.

I do wish that Roy could write about a country or at least a tiny space which she likes.
I am waiting to hear of this place with interest and anticipation.
lalit bagai
kalundborg, danmark
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
28
dear a. roy,
as the last few letters will show, it is clear that your ratings are on the downside.
this is clearly not acceptable and may jeopardise your crack at the nobel. (by the way, girl, you need to be clear on whether you're going for the peace or lit categories). i'm hoping you treat this as an urgent action statement and act on it:

1) lose that haircut. it belongs to aamir khan in dil chahta hai.

2) ethnic is so out, darling. something small and black would help immensely and no, i'm not talking about posing next to a dispossessed pygmy from the congo.

3) you need to write a(nother) BIG book. you're currently suffering from the vvs laxman syndrome. 30s and 40s just will not do, girl, you need that 281. these bits and pieces essays are just not on. compare some past substantial authors, tolstoy, for instance (1000 plus pages for "war and peace".) 11 pages is a prospectus from a financial company, kiddo, get serious!

4)you need another new york performance. yup, that's right. i mean who had heard of muhammad ali until he boxed at madison square garden? in fact, that's a great idea. you've always been good at taking up verbal cudgels, what we need now is a one on one with g.bush(jr) at madison square garden. the adivasis can sell popcorn and take of a not so free market, in fact, a captive audience. this will sell a million.

5) you need to release an album. rap album would be good, preferably with folk undertones, i'm talking like maybe a rainforest leitmotif tempered with hard edged urban lyrics. 50 cent could collaborate. working title: DA GLOBALIZER!

needless to say, we at the a.roy consulting group remain concerned about your declining performance. we assure you of our continued commitment until the day of your commitment to a lunatic asylum within THE lunatic asylum.
regards,
the a.roy consulting group.
neel mehta
Calcutta, India
May 08, 2004 12:00 AM
27
The raving and ranting has been on part of Ms Roy.

Ms Roy epitomes hypocrisy - enjoys the fruits of globalisation and criticises the same.

Unfortunately, her article is too long to give a point by point response / repartee.

However, a few things must be said.

While she speaks of the number of people who are killed by security forces, she does not speak of the tough conditions in which these forces work and how many of them have got killed.

While she speaks about the ills of POTA, how come there is no mention of a law like MCOCA - or it MCOCA good because it has been enacted by a secular congress govt.

While she speaks about areas and areas in the North East being declared as disturbed, there is no mention/criticism that it was the secular congress govt in power then.

And then ofcourse, the huge discourse about fascism - when she is speaking of the 2000 muslims who have got killed in the riots, why isn't there a mention of the Hindus too who have been killed? I dont know how many hindus were killed in the Gujarat riots - but then the media never reports them too. A hindu death does not make headlines.

Arbitary alteration of text books is wrong - but what if the text books were themselves steeped in bias and untruth. Show me one textbook that speaks that there was Emergency in India and atrocities were committed during the period 1975-77. I dont know if there is, but am sure I have not read about this in any text book.

Interestingly Ms Roy is silent about the Emergency imposed by the secular congress govt.

And ofcourse, she's got to say something about the middle class and the well heeled. Their getting on with their lives is supposed to be fascism.

Maybe she does not realise, unlike her the middle class must slog it out to achieve their ambitions. They are, unfortunately, not as talented as her to write books and earn in millions.

They have dreams, aspirations and work to achieve them. They do not sit around doing nothing and crib that things are not happening. They crib, but they also know that they cannot afford to sit around doing nothing. Incidentally, they are the largest taxpayers too and fund all those sops which the farmers and down-trodden are doled out

She says that Dalits and Adivasis have a right to avenge atrocities committed on them through ages - but isn't this happening in Bihar now or in Uttar Pradesh?

WHile a lot has been written about the RSS and shakhas, nothing, absolutely nothing about the madrasas, their funding, their propaganda, their teaching.

When she speaks of artists being harassed and books being burnt by fanatics, I hope she also includes the recent pressure on M F Hussain to withdraw his film as it hurt Islam sentiments.

Interestingly, MF did not destroy his paintings that depcited Hindu deities nude, but when there was a question of hurting Islam, he immediately withdraws his expensive film.

More interestinly, non of the champions of freedom of expression like Ms Roy, Ms Azmi et al came out protesting against the pressure put on MF by the Islamists and his subsequent capitulation. Remember the hue and cry when Shiv Sena protested against his paintings??

Anyway, I know its been a long and maybe incoherent response to a long, biased article by the talented writer.

Al I want to say (after all this) is that Maam, we know how to live our lives, so let us get on with it
Srinivas
Delhi, India
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
26
hi , t think, Ms. Roy should check her fact before making baseless accusations. If she had her way we would be living an caves!! thank god she is just a marginal writer desperately trying to prolong her shelf live ....
India has made amazing strides which should not be underestimated.
bianca
calgary, canada
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
25
What a waste of web page and paper space. Page after page of sloppy intellectual trivia. I do not know about Mr. I.G. Khan, but now I feel sorry for his demise, since his memorial lecture gave this shallow thinker an oppertunity to lecture Indian masses once again!. I really feel sorry for those helpless souls who had to sit through this 10 page nonsence!.
R. Srivatsan
Newport News, USA
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
24
I totally agree. And she writes as if she's sitting in heaven (a feminine tut tutting god). I wonder what she would do if she ran a government? Maybe write lot more 10-page treatises that make you snore.

Ranting about POTA, I wonder how may of her "Kashmiri friends" are Pandits? And she's very much a part of the "different planet" she talks about, what hypocrisy!

If the sangh-parivar is the root of all evil, was milk and honey flowing when the country was run by the Congress chamchas? And will milk and honey be flowing if the so-called "grass-root" movements start ruling? Seeing a demon is the sign of simple-mindedness.
chandra
Portland, US
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
23
mam, that is a real marvel and brave piece by you. i have read your piece on narmada dam. ever since, i have been your fan. i am sure there are going to be lot of responses by "nationalists", callling you traitor, but it is important, very important for you to carry on. press in india has become totally "biased". they fail to report the truth. and truth shall be told to everyone. Too much nationalism can damage a country. it has become refuge of all the scoundrels. humanity has evaporated from india. i cannot walk with my mother in delhi as everywhere there are barrage of abuses!! the morality has been hit for a six. tell that to a "nationalist" and pat the reply...you mother**** etc. india is advancing. the people have themselves blinded themselves. they will realize their folly when the civil war will break out! it already has. india has largest insurgency in the world. why?? there is no smoke without fire. at first i was also one of them, refuting anything anti-indian, but then i slowly opened my eyes. the treatment meeted out to manipuris, assamese, arunachalites, naxalites, kashmiris is horrible. and our "FREE" press makes us believe that it does not happen. it is very important for people like you, who are in prominance, to open the eyes of everyone. but be careful. i already see a conspiracy coming up against your name! try to be a little smart and use politics as a tool to convey yourself better(krishna justifies this). being a naive person in modern india is akin to suicide. as much as i appreciate your courage, and feel pain of those who suffered, all i can do, rather helplessly, is pray, peace be on the souls of all those deprived of justice and bread.
nits
nashville, US
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
22
how can you write this Miss. chandramukhi . are you not ashamed of yourself. baseless accusations!! did you bother to check? the problem is no one is ready to ever accept that their perception and views can be wrong! like a bull, they move their head, from left to right. my relatives have sacrificed lives in army. that does not mean i blind myself from what jawans,JCO's do given a open hand. remember how the IPKF jawans entered homes and gang raped in srilanka. press supressed it. WHEN did Ms. roy praise congress? again logic blinded by blind nationalism. congress is as much responsible as BJP. hinduism needs reforms. our everyday langtuage is horrendous, there is no respect for women, and upon that this new breed of upper middle class, nationalist, who believe that nationalism is, everything said against india[wrong] everything for india[true]. these people have always lived in cities like bangalore, delhi[as if it were paradise] and seldom have idea about what goes away from their miniscule india. they hate idea of free press. to all these nationalists, do you have any idea what % of population you are? were all the dalits, backward class and poor india were to get together, they make overwhelming majority of over 80% against upper caste hindus(nationalists...usually), do you know what will happen. i am also upper caste..mind you. our throats will be on roadside! and ill be killed because of idiots like you forgot the honour code and truth and buried every truth, atrocity in name of nationalism(sick). i dont justify godhra. go and punish people in godhra. dont rape 10 year child in ahmedabad. national leaders like uma bharti justify even that. and miss chandra mukhi..that was disgusting....again...disgusting.. again miss roy, you are my hero, a truly brave person. ill advice you again.. be careful! may god give peace to all deprieve of justice and bread.
nits
nashville, US
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
21
Hmmmm Arun.. Roy ...one of many Pseudo intellectuals ... personally I do not acknowledge their existence no matter what they do or say. Bloody big time real life Dramas.
Gaurav
Sydney, Australia
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
20
Part I

Ms Roy speaking at memorial lecture at Aligarh leaves out certain pertinent facts which might have made the speech even more precise, informative and hard hitting.

She should have mentioned that “this venerable institution which has honoured me today with this invitation, has a very distinguished history. It is the institution which gave rise to many distinguished leaders in the past who went on to lead the Pakistan movement with great passion. A movement of such great passion that eventually led to the near total liquidation of Hindus in Pakistan and in Bangladesh, the cleansing essential to make it “Pak”(i.e., pure)”. Apart from this point she should have delved at some lengths on the ethnic cleansing of 4 lakh Hindus from Kashmir who are refugees in their own land today, a fact that has disappeared from her speech and perhaps her very selective memory.

These facts would have probably led her to exploring a different set of questions, like the spread of Islam in all parts of India and its implications, the elimination of kafirs (Kashmir 1989), about concepts like dar-ul-harb and dar-ul-islam (Kashmir 1989 again). The overwhelming urge for murder when the opportune time to strike down the infidel comes, until than, lie low, negotiate with the enemy (from the life of the prophet himself).
But these are explosive questions, and the audience not right ( in Aligarh do as the Aligarhis do). So what do we do, we invent ghosts, we invent ghosts and chase them and flog them to death. One of the favorite ghost of the professed as well as aspiring “secular liberals” and “noble crusaders” is the “fascism” which the Sangh Parivar is supposed to represent. It runs “hate camps” across the nation, indoctrinating hate and murder to the people who attend them. The point made by the lady is that the camps are institutions of murder, recruiting murderers.
Pankaj Shrivastav
bombay, india
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
19
Part II

Has the writer ever visited a shakha, met the members of the sangh, got to know the nature of their work and the endeavours they are involved in. In the conclusions that have been stated blithely, the journalism of inquiry and objectivity has given way to the journalism of rant. This idea of “fascism” of the RSS is lifted by the lady from the leftist demonology. A demonology supported by the Nehruvian and later congress governments. The RSS had nothing to do with the Muslims at the time of its founding and later years. Mr. Hedgewar founded it to develop a national consciousness among Hindus who had become enslaved for a thousand years because they had lost this national consciousness. Yes, the RSS organized and replied back to Muslim attacks and terrorism during the pre-independence period, but to label it a fascist organization because of these actions, is to condone the killing and rapes of ones own family members.

Ms Roy, there are more than 60,000 Indian soldiers killed in Kashmir by the proxy war of the Pakistanis since 1989. Those Indian soldiers are taking the bullets meant for you on their chests. The killers sent to fight the jehad in Kashmir is recruited on the streets of Pakistan, and he comes in with only one purpose, fight a jehad, kill the infidel Hindus. Entire lands, now called Pakistan and Bangladesh, have been lost to Islamic converts, and cleansed of Hindus. In Kashmir, the Islamic claims are meeting a brave resistance from Indian soldiers whom you denounce. You also enjoy the protection and security of the Indian state and denounce it as a “fascist” one.

With your standing in international circles as an activist, and with profound skills of language and intelligence, you can raise the right questions, construct a well informed, cohesive viewpoint, instead you choose to paint the world in black and white, relentlessly demonize, invent ghosts, spew the leftist abuse on the sangh parivar and hindutva. There are many who would read your essay and wonder about who is actually leading the “baying, howling, deranged chorus”.
Pankaj Shrivastav
bombay, india
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
18
Very very deep. Having hit the bottom of the barrel, A Roy has no option but to dig extremely deep.

Every asylum and psychiatric ward in the country refused to let this lunatic in, so she went to AMU instead.

Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
17
History is serious business

Historians may kindly get off their high horses. History is no more serious business than any other academic pursuit is. For that matter, Science is a far more serious business. Yet, many outstanding scientists have been self-made. Some, like Faraday, did not even go to college.

It's far easier to be a self-made historian, because one needs have access only to a good library, not to expensive and sophisticated laboratory exquipment.

Romila Thapar will have to do tapas for 100 years to gain Naipaul's keen sense of history.

Joke: What did the PhD in History from JNU say to the engineer from IIT? "Welcome to Pizza Hut, sir. May I take your order?"

Jokes apart, in an increasingly meritocratic and technology-driven world, economic power is going into the hands of those well-versed in the sciences. This is giving a complex to some in liberal arts fields like History -- a sort of penis envy, if you will -- and that resentment is in part the reason why History is so politicized, because these miffed historians want to become important by wielding political power.
Raghu Reddy
Bangalore, India
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
16
Hi Raghu,

The Pizza joke made my day :-) Way to go buddy!!
Rahul Malviya
Bangalore, India
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
15
One of the more ludicrous fellow-travellers of Islamo-Fascism strikes again.
Rajendran Kumaran
London, UK
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
14
Another long winded one-sided portayal.

No society is perfect, far from it. But at least, in India, we are trying? Sure. The US Government lies. The Indian Government lies. SO do all the rest of them, what else is new?

At the end of the day, India is still a country where Arundhati Roy can go and present her views. In my books that is way better than what it was like say 30 years ago, when I couldn't.

Yes there are thousands dying today in Kashmir, well, things have improved since millions along with my parents were dispossessed and killed in 1947. A few more millions were killed in 1971.

Yes, the police is still brutal. But at least we have an NCHR and forums to try to resolve and fix.

Yes, the North East is in turmoil. But yes, Phizo's Grandson died fighting terrorists wearing an Indian Army uniform.

One could go on and on, the traps one has to lok out for are the obvious religion and flag based anecdotes.

The one single fact Ms. Roy is unable to counter is that in India, with a lot of blood sweat and tears no doubt, we are continuing to assimilate with democracy. And that, readers, is unbeatable anywhere in the world.

Would Ms. Roy talk about this? No, she wuldn't. I think the thought that there will arise like a Phoenix from these ashes a stronger middle class scares her. Her fear and sour sweat shines through her "lecture".

Poor IG Khan.
Nick
Delhi, India
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
13
Continued........


Coming to POTA, it was acknowledged by our federal govt. about the abuses and it did make some amendments to the POTA law to minimize abusing the law. None of those charges made by her were substantiated. Who is she trying to fool? If the law is misused so much all over the country as she said, I am sure it would have been reported already by her bedmates like TOI, Indian Express, The Hindu, Hindustan Times and Outlook itself. Such charges coming from a person who has zero credibility, who is capable of lying, can be taken with a pinch of salt. Man made laws can never be fool proof and there is always a possibility for misuse. Even in such cases, there is remedy for the innocent victims to approach the POTA review committee for relief. Anarchists like Roy are only trying to magnify some isolated cases to convey the message that India is burning under POTA. On the other hand, POTA is an excellent tool required by the govt. to secure this nation from future attacks.

Coming to her ranting on privatization, what more proof does the Indian masses need than the successful development of IT, Telecom, Highways to mention a few in the private sector. We all have seen what socialism did to this country. It created poverty, anarchy, violence, and illiteracy in the society. It is true that the benefits of privitization program or economic reforms have not yet reached the masses below the middle class status. It will eventually. The whole process is painful and time consuming. Only criminals like Roy take advantage during the transition period. Privatization is not simply about transferring govt. control or shares to private groups. It is a thought, a philosophy that people have a right to economic freedom as much as political freedom. No economic model is perfect but a wise leader chooses the one that is beneficial to as many people as possible. That is exactly what BJP is doing and we all should commend them for it. Roy cannot understand these things as her brain is up in her as*.

I just have one question for her. If India is such a horrible country to live by, why can't she migrate to Pakistan or Afghanistan or US or UK. Worried that the first two countries will stone her to death if she writes these kinds of articles, especially against the military? Worried that the last two countries will take her to a cell in an unknown place in secrecy and then tortures her naked like in Iraq?

She is a characterless, low life scum who feeds on the vulnerability of certain sections of the society. She does that by creating panic and terror in the minds of these sections. She is lucky that there is no article under POTA, which calls for the imprisonment of journalists who terrorize people using the power of a pen. In future, when the federal govt. reviews POTS, I strongly suggest incorporating such an article and book Roy under POTA. A Roy in jail looks credible on such articles than a Roy who is residing on lands that were grabbed illegally while enjoying democracy and freedom protected by the armed forces of this great nation.
Venkateswara Arava
NY, USA
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
12
Arundhati Roy has a bigger problem than I initially thought. Her problem is that she is unable to sell her ideas (lies) to the public except to few illiterate masses or minority groups who would anyway curse India all the time for what it stands for i.e democracy, freedom and peace. It is no coincidence that her ranting against India and Hindus in particular are becoming more and more acidic. A novice reading her article will instantly conclude that India is burning with communal violence everywhere, minorities being raped, looted, tortured all over India, there is poverty everywhere and India has become a failed state. That is one BIG LIE. She should be ashamed of herself. What she is indulging is a criminal enterprise. She is actually provoking the minority community to take to violence against Hindus. If Parveen Togadia of VHP writes such an article, he would have been hauled by the SC by now and banned entry into several states. In this scum’s case, as we can see, she continues to enjoy freedom to propagate violence unlike Hindus who get lashing from the media for nothing. That itself is one major testimony to the fact that Hindus are very tolerant when it comes to the antics of criminals like Roy or the hatred of Indian minority groups towards India. Look at the choice of words she chooses carefully to mislead the people. In the context of J&K, she uses words like "brutality of security forces" or "so called terrorists" or “so-called terrorist-strike”.
So called terrorists? Pardon my language but where exactly is her brain, up in her as* or in the head? What she is basically saying is that all those brave soldiers who are sacrificing their lives fighting to protect the freedom and democracy of Roy, you and me are terrorists and the mullah terrorists are the victims. Only a mentally dysfunctional character can see things that way.

Coming to Gujarat riots, instead of making new accusations, she should be answering few questions herself. In some of her previous articles, she mentioned the butchering of a particular Muslim family during Gujarat riots. It later turned out that the said family was actually living in USA happily and was not in anyway at the receiving end of the riots. It was brought to Roy's attention by several newspapers but she refused to retract her article. Some people might call the whole episode as journalism but I call it terrorist propaganda of the Bin Laden kind. As such, she has zero credibility on Gujarat riots.
Venkateswara Arava
NY, USA
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
11
If Arundhati were to go and become the citizen of any of the Muslim thugocracies favoured by her "left-wing" audience at Aligarh Muslim University, she would be ordered to put on a burka, keep her big mouth shut and stay at home to look after the kids and the kitchen. If she failed to keep her mouth shut except in praising Islamo-fascism, she would have acid thrown in her face.

Such are "her" friends.
Rajendran Kumaran
London, UK
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
10
Roy seems to have a lot of questions (some of them, as usual, are just rhetoric!). Does she know any answers?
I can't think of a single issue on which she seems to have a balanced view - while she harps away on the "failure" of economic reform, doesn't she realize that an entire generation of youth are now doing stuff that their ancestors only dreamed about?
About the so-called "Hindu fascism" and Ram temple. Does she ever stop to think about the reasons why there is so much mistrust between Hindus and the Muslims? Surely, there is some historical basis for it!
India today does not want dreamers like Roy. We need people who are pragmatic enough to steer clear of cheap rhetoric, and not people like Roy who are hell bent of turning India into a land of beggars, bullock carts and tribals. They seem to revel in the poverty of this land.
I fervently hope that Roy spends more time writing novels than worrying about things she can barely understand, let alone solve!
Anand Bhogle
Pune, India
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
9
Actually, there is no point in raising points against her views, she is "bewitched" by language, her entire life is fixated on coming up with cute-sounding comparisons and word-plays, and presenting them to fellow language-junkies. She doesn't care a hoot about facts, the fix is the only thing that matters. It is kinda sad seeing her becoming more and more scatter-brained and blathering, I used to respect her at one point. All that sound and fury. Sigh.
chandra
Portland, US
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
8
Arundhati use of language is pathetic - that of a silly school kid. The only interesting thing about her is that "Outlook" should think it necessary to give such huge amounts of space to the foolish vapourings of a pitiable dimwit. Is there really such a dire shortage of publishable material? Arundhati impresses only morons. She is not worth refuting.
Rajendran Kumaran
London, UK
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
7
just a quick statistic. since the first piece published by a. roy in this magazine (the one about dams (the greater common good, in think its called), the rants against a.roy have steadily increased, and are now oustripping the raves, (at current count) by 11 to 1.
so, a. roy, in that free market which is not really free, you ain't doin' so good, baybeh. outlook, on the other hand, seems to have a good proposition. it gets a lot of readers reading, if only to vent their disgust later.

report: good work, outlook, it looks like a great marketing month ahead. a.roy, you need to visit a good management consultant and get your act together. see you next week.
dana
Gaya, India
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
6
My dear Arundhati Roy,
When you talked on Kashmir , why did you totally missed the tragedy and holcause faced by Kahmiri Hindu Pandits ? Why didn't you talk about them ? The Kashmiri Pandits are the real sufferes. Why didn't you mention them ? Were they guilty ? Are the Kashmiri Pandits not human beings ? Why did you totally ignore them ?
Ahmed
bangalore, india
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
5
My Dear Kashmiri Hindu Pandits,
You are the worst sufferers in the world. Jews never suffered like you. At least nobody denied their sufferings. But you see, liberals from your own community are ignoring you. See the lecture delivered by Arundhati Roy. She discussed the tragedy of Kashmir and cursed the indian Security forces. She never cared to remeber your Tragdey? 5 lakhs Kashmiri Pandits are driven out from their motherland. Thousnads of them are killed by Muslims. Thousanads of Hindu women were raped. But Arundhati Roy ignores it. She is not alone. There are plenty of like minded "liberal" souls in your own community. These intellectual terrorists criticize Hindutva , RSS , Sabgh Parivar. These are the only terrorists organiztions for her. Nowehere in world there are Muslim terrorists. They are doubtful about Godhra but sure about Ahmedadabad. Have she mentioned any Muslim Terrorist organization in her lecture ? Does she speak against Burqa and polygamy of Muslim society ? Is there no Muslim terrorist organization in India ? Arundhati Roy knows the truths. But if spoke the hard truths , she would have been kicked out of Aligarh that moment itself.
Ahmed
bangalore, india
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
4
Ms Roy,
God bless you.
Do you know the % of Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh now ? They were in sizeable numbers in 1948. Who are behind all the bomb blasts in INDIA ? Do you know ?

Criticizing Hindus , Hinduvta are the easiest thing on earth. But if you criticize Islam , SIMI , Mullahs and Laske-E-Toiba , Al-Qaeda , Dawood Ibrahim and co , your life will be in danger. You are too smart , you recognize danger. Listen dear godess , start crying for Iraq now. The moment you
show your symapthy to Hindus and Sikhs in Kashmir and Pakistan , you will cease to be a "liberal". The Muslims of Aligarh will be vying for your blood. Why didn't they invite Taslima NASRIN ?????
Ahmed
bangalore, india
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
3
This is exactly what we need to represent Hindu views and fight these pseudo-secular forces in this country. Please check this out:

http://www.indianexpress.com/archive_f ull_story.php?content_id=46290
Venkateswara Arava
NY, USA
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
2
Ms. Roy, I challenge you to dress up like a Hindu woman, i.e. wear a Sari & Sindoor and wander around alone without any chamcha's in the Muslim dominated Bandra(East) a suburb of Mumbai ... I assure you, you will get a really good understanding of *** Indian Secularism ***

Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
May 07, 2004 12:00 AM
1
Nits & Roy, what is the criteria for becoming citizens of La-Dee-Dah-Dum land ?

And Nits, BTW, I am a "lower caste" Hindu ... and No !!! We won't be slitting the throats of "upper caste" Hindus ... but YES !!! I do go into a murderous rage when I read article's like Ms. Roys or comments like yours ...

It is elites like Roy & chamcha's like you who will bear the brunt of the next Indian revolution ...
Dharmayudh Singh
Philadelphia, USA
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